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December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2653 DW - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 1, Bill No. 67. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Juries And Compensation Of Jurors In The Supreme Court Of The Province And Compensation For Certain Witnesses In The Courts Of The Province", carried. (Bill No. 67) On motion, Bill No. 67 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion 30, Bill No. 83. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement l'lith Erco Industries Limited," (Bill No. 83). MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I wish that every time I rose in this House to introduce legislation it could be a matter of as much benefit to the Province as this, as much direct and immediate benefit to the Province. I guess as it came up in the course of a media interview when I was asked just exactly what the significance of this legislation might he,I said that I thought the $146,400,000 spoke for itself and that is what we are talking about here tcday.

We are talking about an agree­ ment which this government found when it came into power, an agreement which would,over a period of twenty-five years and ~ight now today having a further thirteen years left to gc, would have seen an ever increasing serious deficit to this Province, 7 i;? q

November 4, 1980 Tape No. 2654 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: a qeficit so great that in fact the costs of having the industry in the Province would out­ weigh the benefits. Ana I do not mean just the direct benefits in terms of revenue, that was apparent.

But when you did a cost benefit analysis, when you worked out using your multiplier factors,the impact upon the economy of having so many men and women employed at ERCO Industries, when you worked out what it would mean to the Province in sales tax, in income tax, in corporate ta~ and so forth, that there was still a deficit, that this Province,in other words, would have been better off if the industry had not come to the Province. Now, Mr Speaker, we decided that there had to be something done to change that state of affairs, and there is a long history to the happy event that we are participating in here today.

And I will not bore the House by going into the discussions that were held over a long period of time other than to point out that early in i980 it was arranged for the Planning and Priorities Committee, with the Premier, to meet with the top officials, not just of ERCO but of the parent companies, Albright, Wilson, and with representatives from the shareholders involved in Albright, Wilson. And,Mr. Speaker, the Premier put it in the strongest possible terms so that there could be absolutely no doubt that this arrangement between ETICO and the Province was intolerable. .

It had reached the stage where something had to be done. It had been a political issue for some eight years at least, if not longe;_and I guess longer than that; eight years since this government came into power it had been a political issue- and that we were no longer prepared to have this issue there to aggravate the people of this Province, that the people of this Province had reached the stage where they wanted to see action. 7fj An

December 4, 198'J The House met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAXER (Simms): rape No. 260 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINIS~ERS: ~lM - l MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, or the Minister of the Environment? MR. D.PJ'iE: The former, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker and hon. members, it is my pleasure to announce to you today the undertaking of a new initiative by the Division of Recreation and Sport Services of the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth.

Through the appointment of a ministerial co~mittee, a major subjective analysis of the community recreation delivery system in Newfoundl;lo.d and Labrador will be completed in the next six months. The analysis and ensuing report will be entited the ~ Paper on Recreation . The past decade has seen a tremendous growth in the number and magnitude of recreation-oriented progra~~es in this Province. Services have escalated from simple, low cost operations to complex programmes involving extensive budgets.

The provision of cornnunity recreation services to conslli~ers involves a large number of government offices and related non-government provincial agencies, as well as a wide variet y of local organizations. Through a wide variety of assistance prograrr~es both in terms of professional and financial supper~ there has been a very rapid growth in communit y recreation programmes and facilities.

My department, through its work with recreation practitioners, local recreation authorities and the Newfoundland and Labrador Parks and Recreation Association sees t:;e need at this +:i '11e to prepare a complete analysis of co~~unit y recreatioi'.. 7G4R

-- uecember 4, 1980 ":::'ape No. 2642 Nl" - 2 MR. DA\\'E: It is important to understand the broad range of activit y which is referred to under the term "recreation." In fact 1 we are referring to activities in the areas of amateur sport, outdoor pursuits, visual and performing arts, exercise and fitness, as well as a wide variety of social activities.

Well planned recreation services are mandatory if our citizens are to make w~se use of t~eir ever increasing leisure opportunities. ~he underlying aim for the ~reen Pacer on Recreation is to seek a critical, but constructive evaluation of community recreation services. The Green Paper will provide an overview of past and existing roles and responsibilities, it will then make recommendations for restructuring, reorganization and modification of service where and if necessary. A committee of seven has been established to conduct a series of public meetings around the Province.

These meetings will provide individuals and local programmers with a forum in which to present their views regarding the development of recreation programmes and services. Through this process, the committee will be able to identify and evaluate specific and general concerns for inclusion in their report. The committee will be comprimsed of the following: the Chairman is Mr. Frank Butler. Frank is presently the Assistant Professor of the School of Physical Education Athletics at Memorial university.

And if I may be permitted,I might run down through some of the activities and things that these people are involved in. He is Past President of Basketball (~ewfoundland) , Past President of the Canadian Basketball Association, a member of the Sport Federation of Canada. He was Sport and Technic~l Director for the 1977 Canada Games, on the Advisory Committee for Co~~unity Recreation 7iJi.O

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2642 Nl-1 - 3 MR. DAWE: and Leadership of t~e College of Trades and Technology, a rr.errber of the Sport Federation for Newfoundland, Director of International Technical Aid Committee for the Federation of International BasketbaJ.l. A"J HON. i1EMBER : A good man. A good man. 7 ij c; [l

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2642 il.H-1 }~R. DAWE: Mr. Frank 2larke,who will serve as vice chairman of the co~ittee,is presently the principal of Persalvic 'High School in Victoriq anQ he is also the mayor of Victoria as well as the president of the ~rovincial Par~s anc Recreation Association. He serves as a member of the Offshore Impact Committee on Oil, a member of the Social and Cult'lral Committee, he is past president of the Carbonear Branch of the NTA. Mr. Victor Janes, Corner Brook in his present residence. He is recreatjon superintendent of the Par~s and Recreation Depar~~ent in the city of Corner Brook.

There is a long list of his particular accomplishments and involvements which I a~ sure all hon. members would like to read. He is presently the Newfoundland director on the Canadian Parks and Recreation Association. ::-1r. Gordon RandeJ l, Labrador City. Mr. Randell if the first native Labradorian to work £or C.B.C. and has done so for the past tNenty years. He is a chartered member of the Kinsmen Club, Ha~py Valley, a town councillor for four years at Happy Valley and a number of other interests in the area of recreation and sport in the Happy Valley area.

He is also a member of the Steering Committee for the Tourist Association of Lake Melville. Terry Hart from Grand Falls. Terry is a news reporter with the Colonial Broadcasting System in Grand Falls. He is vice president of the Newfoundland and Labrador Amateur Baseball Association, a for:ner member of the Gran~ ~alls Recreation Committee, a former member of the Grand Falls Toastmasters Association,and the list gees on. Mr. Bill Matthews presently works as a physical education teache~ in ~he community of Fortune.

He is fJrmer president of the Burin Peninsula Soccer Association, vice president of the Burin Peni~sula Soccer Association, 7 IJ ~. I

December 4.,1980 Tape No . 2643 AE- 2 ~iR . DAI'iE: chai :.-man of t!1e ?ortun~ Recreation commission, a ma~ber of the Fortune rlrena Board and presieer.t of the Fort~ne Senior Hockey League . Mrs. Paula Smythe, who is e:{ecutive d irector o: the Newfoundland and Labrado -r Parks end Recrec.tien ;,ssocia::ion . .Paula is presencly in that position and she '1-las ':o:::rerly c youth and recreation specialist •.vit!l the De9artment o: Rec reational Sports Services and has a •11ide list of credenti ·als after her name as '"'ell .

It is important to realize that vlell-founced recreation activities ful:il ma!ly of the basic human needs lvhich are no longer satisfied thro ugh our occupations . The completion of a :;reen Paper on Recreation will ser•·e to assist t..lie Division of Recreation and Sports Services in improving its su)?port mechanisms to local recreation authori-cies and in turn to the citizens wr.o utilize their services . 7fJS?

December 4, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : St. Mary's -The Capes. ~1R • HANCOCK : Tape 2644 :c:c - l The hen. the member fer Mr. Speaker, having been involved in recreation and sports for the better half of my life, I can see what it can do to a guy, especially with the drug situation that we have now and how accessible it is to get to alcohol and whatever so that every day it is becoming more important that \ve get facilities and get our youth involved in recreation. Because I can assure you from my own experience that it is a great life saver if you want to use that term. 1>-I.R. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR.

HANCOCK: Recreation is very important to our youth. Having lived in Labrador City and seeing ~he recreation facilities that they have up there and how they utilize what they have and get the maximum benefit from those facilities, and then to move back in~o a district like the one which I represent now, Mr. Speaker, where we have some recreation facilities - not nearly enough, but I can look around and I can assure you I can count up in the next couple of days $1 million worth of recreation facilities that should never have gone into the district and I would say that, and I will be criticized for saying that.

But when I see at least ten or twelve outdoor swimming pools in that district and I never see a drop of water in as many as six or seven, then I can honestly say that that money has been wasted. And a committee such as this - and I can speak highly of the chairman of this committee because I have known him, te is a personal friend of mine; we have spent a lot of time salmon fishing th1s Summer. And I ~nink that this guy can do 7 i.! ~ ':\

December 4, 1980 Tape 2644 EC - 2 .t-1R. H.'\NCOCK: a great job and can help in the organizational aspect of districts like my own where the money should have been put to better use and we should have an indoor swimming facility or an indoor recreation facility in that district, and many districts around the Province should have the same because I can count up at least ten districts where money has been wasted, Mr. Speaker, on recreation facilities that could be used in other words - MR. NEARY: MR. HJl.NCOCK: MR. NEZ\.RY: MR. HANCOCK: Right on! - on different projects. (Inaudible) out at Stephenville.

I do not know what other districts outside of my own. I can think of Fortune Bay, there are a few wasted up there as well. I congratulate all the men on this cowmittee and I look forward to having some input, if I may, into what is going on here. And I hope this is not just an ongoing study that is going to just be called a study and a Green Paper is going to be handed back and that is going to be the end of it. I would like to see the minister make sure that it is followed up. I can remember the words that my grandmother always said.

She always told me this: "A sound body makes a sound mind." As the body is in physical shape then you will get more mental work out of the mind. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SVEAKER (Si mms) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The han. the rr.ember for LaPoile. lfi .s t

Dacer.1ber 4, 1980 '!'ape 2644 EC - 3 ~lR . NE.~ : Mr . Speaker, my question is !or the ~liP~ster of Socia l Services {~ ~ . Hickey ). As all hon . ma~bers know, ~1r. Speaker, the oil boom syndrome created mainly by che provincial gover~~en t has caused a tra~endous ~ncrease L~ the cost of li~i~g in th~s Province, especially increases i~ rents, mortgage paymEnts, focc, clothing , ;lights , foot.,.lea!' , etc .

I would like to ask the !1inister of Social Services what seeps his de9artme~-c is taking to assist people who are unfortuna-ce enough through no =ault o= cheir o~m to be on social assista~cF-, \"th at steps he is taki:Jg to cry to giv e these people en soc ial assistance the resources so tha t they can cope with the high cost of living brought about mainly by the goverr-~ent talkir.g about the oil boom that does not: exist in this ?rovince? 7 il s c

December 4, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. T. HICKEY: Ta:9e No. 2645 SD - 1 The han. Minister of Social Services . Mr. Speaker, I cannot say I concur with the han. gentleman's last comments about the oil boom ~hat does not ekist. That might be wishful thinking on his part, I do not know,but the increase in cost in housing and the cost of living generally started in this Province long before there was any strike in Hibernia and he, I am sure, well knows that. It has increased ,I agree, moresc in the last year or year and a half.

There is really nothing that this government can do about it in terms of having been able to prevent it .. and certainly I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that has been directly related with anything government has been saying in relation to the development o= oil and gas. l'ie have in place, Mr.

Speaker, two areas within my budget 1aside from the regular subhead of social assistance,under which we normally provide the rentals and mortgage payments,say, in relation to housing. lve have 1vhat is known as additional assistance and then we have another category of what we call 'special needs' and those two categories, for exarn?le, the additional assistance is ·~rovided t a case where there are some serious circumstances; the special needs are more serious and where there are very extenuating circumstances Ne do certain things there.

We are presently looking at the rentals that we are paying and we acknowledge that they are insufficient. I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that social assistance is never meant to provide all things but rather to help a family,and this government finds itself in the position, and especially during this current year where we had some additional money in my budset that has b~en swallowed up by the fishermen's strika and ~he other labour disputes,but especially the fishermen's strike 7 i_! 5 h

Je~e~~= 4, 1980 Tapa ~o . 2645 so - 2 :>!R. T . HIC!<EY: in c~is ?rovince,so t~at riqht now t:te=e is ·1ery little flex.:..bilit y. ~.r.ci cha :nost :;: can say is t~ac we have addressed ourselves ~o ~~s quescion i~ r-elation to preparation of our budge:: ::cr th.e co::li.."'!g year . Noto~, Nhat is going to ~appen to that, of course, it is :lOt for me to say at t!lis poin:: because , i:1 =act, the mat:ter is I am unable to say at this point L~ time because government :-1as not made any decision or. it.

But ti-Je provisions aJ::e there , the recognicion of t:he necessi:::.r !or i~creases is identified and certain modi!ications of our programmes are inciuded in the new submission in preparation for the budget for the coming fiscal year. l·L~ . S • NEARY : HR . SPEAKER (Sl.:runs ) : :o:: La?oile . MR . NEARY: St .tpplementar_J, ~-ir. S?eake::-, Supplementary, ~~e hon. ~e~ber :1r.

Spea~er, the ho::. gentleman a.~ :-:er..bers of t!1e House lcrJol. · t:he number o: co:n?laints, the nu.:nne r o=: ::equests u.n~ increasing daily. :•:e ha·.re al:nost: reached an a~ergency si:uti on in tr.e ?rovince; record une:n?loymenc, ?eople are underemt;>loyed and ur.der?aid and 7 ~~ 17 ..

Deca~er 4, 1980 Tape No . 2646 EL - 1 ~~ . ~~~rtY: t~e cosc of living is prac - t~c:lly ouc of control . There are a number of hardship cases 1 as t~e !'!on. gentleman is a\va!:e . Yiculd t:he hon. gent larnan indicate to the House if , in viei• o= the sit - uatio ~ in cte ?rovince ~hen childre~ are going to scho ol undernourished and ~he gove rnment can spend $100 ,000 out b~:yi;:g ne;.; flags -and does not t":e hon . ge!'ltlar a!'l tr.i.J'\k that t.~ey :1ave the:.r p~ iorities a li.tcle bit upside down ?-and chat in t:!":is e!'!'lergency that che minister could ask - ~ . ~C~.K : Get to the question . MR .

SP EAKER tSi~~s) : Order, please ! I underscand the ~on. meJAber is asking - a ouest ion? HR . NEARY : - his colleagues in Cabine!: to have a special warr ant: iss~~d tc grant some :~nds so chat: these people Cw, be given some relief in chis sit- uation which is alw~st an e~erge~cy sicuat:i.on; SO~E RON . ~'·1BERS : Hear , hear ! M..~ . SPEAi<ER : The hon . the c·tinister of Social Services. :-l.R . HICKEY: :1r .

S;Jeaker , t~ere is no case- and maybe ~t is an opportune cime fer ~e to say that: na y=e t:.he hon . gen tleman is assuming ba sed on st atements made by people such as Ric :-tarc Cashin and : fe"' ' m.ore. a couple in the Federatio n of Labour, l<~ith rega rds to this gove=nmenc '~ poli cy on assistance to st rikers, maybe the hon . gentleman has been had by those people who have :nade such stacements of our refusing to grant as sista nce to those people on st:rike during the ;:>ast year . 7i :=. p

December 4, 1980 T lpe No. 2646 EL - 2 MR. HICKEY: Let me say, Mr. Speaker, for the record of this House, let me inform the public how erroneous those statements are. \vhat motivated them I will leave for hon. gentlemen to decide for them­ selves. The very fact that I do not have any flexibility in my budget at the moi!'.ent is because we did not allow any family to go in a situation of hardship, where there was any undue hardship created.

We did not do that. ~llien i~ came right down to the final analysis, ~r.Speaker, having clearly demonstrated our position of non-involvement on either side of the fence in that labour dispute or those labour aisputes during the Summer, my department ~nd through my own office =arne down hard on the side of the families and the people in need and my role and my mandate as Min­ ister of Social Services took precedent over government's policy in regard to assistance to strikers. That is why we are in the tight situation we are from a fiscal point of view right now. Further than that, Mr.

Speaker, let me say that I can only deal with the cases that come to my attention,and the same applies to my staff. No case, and I challenge anyone, anY"·here in this House re­ presenting any area,to produce cases to me which have been refused or where we havr: turned our ~ack where there is a pressing need, where we have not applied the case of special assistance, additional assistance, emergency assistance and where we have not bent over=a~ to alleviate want and distress. As I said before,and I repeat, social assistance can never be interpreted as the end-all and be-all to provide everything but, Mr.

Speaker, it is very wrong for a,1yone to convey the message to the public that we are in a tight sit­ uation financi~lly to such an extent 7 fl s::::

Dece:ui:er 4, 1980 '!'ape :-io . 2647 Di·i - l :-!?. . T . EICKEY : ·,;here people are going wi ':!'I- cu~ che basic essentials of lite . T~a~ is ~o~ t ~ ue, it is not ~appening ,and despice the :ac~ t.."'at I :ace a possible ceficic ~c t~e year 's end witnin ~y Cw ~ cudget go~erThuen~'s policy is clea~ and precise in this ~a~~er: ~e a~si st p~ople ~ased on ~e=ic and based on individual cases and we will con ­ tinue to ~o so . '1R . S . ~Ei\.RY: Sr;>eake= . ~ffi . SPEAKER (Si~ms) : hon . t:\ember :or La Poi le . ~-!...~ . S . ~EARY : A final suoplementary , Mr . A :'inal su9plementary, the lihat n:bbish, ~.r .

Speaker. And then ~~e han . gentleme n w~o are clapping thei= desks, t~eir constic~e~ts are camino to us beaging :'or food, be~gi~g :~r =lot~es ~o sene their chi:dren to sctool . ~o•m in my hen . ==~end's d~strict o:' Burgee -Bay c' 3spoi= (~tr . Andrews) - :·:R . S?EAKER : Order, please ! Order, please! '!R . S. NE,.-n_~y • - and ~e .:.s over there thu.rnping the desk . :·t= . Speaker, my supple.tnentary - ~R . N . ~-li.RSF.ALL: '-!R. SPEAKER : President of the Council . ~R . S . NEARY : t-1~ . SPEAKER : cent of che Council . ~lR . ;.; • MP-~S?!AI.L : .n. point of orde r, i'olr . Speaker .

A point of orcer, the hon - Sir, ha s to do - I am sorry . The hon . P=esi - I chought the poi~t of order was obvious . The hen . member is getting hysterical and in the course of his hysteria is deliver~ng a s9~ech . ~L~. S?:EJ\.KER : Ic is a legi~i~ate ?Oin~ of o::5e=- . r: ~:se hon . ~ember :or La?oile ('1r . ~eery) has a suoolement.ar y question 1 I am sure ~e •.11an -;s :.o ?Uc it: no1o~. 7 il h f1

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2647 DW - 2 :-IR. S • NE.il_RY: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary, Sir, has to do with single men and women in this Province who get no assistance whatsoever from the Department of Social Services. Is the hon. gentleman going to re-consider this matte~, review this oolicy that was brought in by the Tories after they took over in this Province in l972 and cut off single men and women, boys a~d girls over the age of eighteen from receiving a~y assistance from the Deoartment of Social Ser'.r:i . .::es,which is contrary to the spirit of the· Canada Assistance Plan in this countryi c-tR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Social Services. 1<1R. T. HICKEY : Jlllr. Speaker, you know, one gets more tolerant after he is in this House over longer periods of time, I suppose. I am not goina to rise and c.ebate and enter into the realm of debate with the hon. gentlemen ~bout the philosophy or the philosophical attitudes of this administration and this party versus the other party because that would take a long, long time. And, of course, t~e record would be just something else. Let me simply say to the hon. gentleman he too is falling into the pitfall that Mr.

Cashin fell in when he telexed the federal minister - ~R. S. NEARY: Why do you hate Rick Cashin? MR. T. HICKEY: I do not hate anybody. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, or fortunately for me 1I am not like the hon. gentleman 1 I do not hate a living soul on this earth. I love all people. SOME qQN. MEMBERS: I<""R.. J . MORGli_N : MR. T. HICKEY: Hear, hear! He is a loving person. That is why I am here. Mr. Speaker, that statement has already been made and it is a false statement, Mr. Speaker, that we are in contravention of the Canada Assistance Plan. \1/e lii 61

!:leceJ"'.be!" 4, 1980 Tape ~o . 2647 01•1 - 3 ~:~. 1'. H:CKEY: are not . ~hat •a~cer has ~een checked out by the President n~ the Fishermen's Union and c~eckc:d out very closely, and he fo~nd o~~. to his cha t:rin,that:. this Province .. .,as sqt:arely ir. its Gw:l riqht to do as it saw fit wi~~in the confines and ~~e rules o£ the CanaC.a Assistance ?lar. . ~l e are not cont:-aver:i~g 3.ny la,.; or :or that matter any intent .

Ne are scrictly ~·lithin the spirit of <:he Canada Assiscance Plan and , indeed, they are quite pl.: a sed ana quite happy t•i th what r,;e are doing . >-ie a:.-e doing over and above, Mr . Speake:- , the provisions hhich are contained in the Canada Assistance ?lan . We are doing t:.hings in ~~is ?rovince =or ?e09le which 7(1Fi ?

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2648 N~ - 1 ~1R. HICKEY: are not covered in the Canada Assistance Plan, cout of total provincial cost and total provincial dollars. The question of single men and women is just not that cut and dried. There are situations where employment is available and where single men and women are enco~raged to go out and find employment. There is no blanke~ policy whereby single people are simply refused irrespective of the circumstances. Again I point out, l>!r. SoeaJrer, th.e criteria or the bottom line in any case as regards to social assistance is based on the individual merii~g.

Now I will concede to the hon. gentleman that there are a number of cases of single people in this Province who are refused assistance. But there are good, solid reasons for that, Mr. Speaker, and that policy shall continue. Because we believe that we cannot be the end-all and the ce-all, and t•Je cannot jus:: provide assistance just simply because somebody walks in the doc~. I want to say one further thing in relation to the comment made regarding my colleague from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews).

I can recollect instantly, right nm-r, quite a lll.Ullber of cases that the hon. gentleman has :;ruugllt to my attention where additional assistance was provided. ~R. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Si!llil's): MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. Order, please! Where special needs were provided . Order, please! HR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. !fODDER: I am listening intently to the minister and there is no doubt that the minister can phrase ~is answer much more concisely than ne is doing. It is cbuse of the rules, Mr. Speaker. 7 (;FJ ·~

December 4, 1980 Tape NO. 2648 SO~~ HON. MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Sirrms): Order, please! MR. HODDER: I timed the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HODDER: Beauchesne,page 131, says, "Answers to questions should be as·Jrief as possible," Mr. Speaker, and I say - you know,I waited and listened to what he was saying. The minister's answers are not concise and they are not to the point. NM - 2 111R. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of crder, t~e hon. Minister of Social Services. MR.

HICKEY: I am awfully sorry if, you know, my answers are not so direct and so short, and I suggest to the hon. gentleman that Beauchesne is not going to put much bread on the tables of the clients, the people - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKEY: - that the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) stood up on. Now if you want information, fine, and if I a~ ~ot blessed with the quality of providing the information so . short and, you know, so direct as that- SOME HON. C/!E!1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: IJh, too bad now. MR. HICKEY: - I am awfully sorry. But you asked for information and I am providing it. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: t1R. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! With respect to the point of order, there is a legitimate point of order in that questions and answers should be brief. I will say to all hon. members that this matter has been raised freauently in the last number of days and I am going to prepare a particular ruling for reference later on next week Perhaps. for all han. members I - - so they will be more precisely aware. 7 IJ R L

~· Dece~~er 4, 1980 Tape No . 2648 :-1M - 3 MR . :>.'L..\RY: :.;eJ.l, a new question. ~ - SPSAKE R (Simr.ls) : I recognize the hon . member !or LaPoile for a final supplementa~y MR. NEA..~Y : A new I'TUes-cion for "t:..l-Je minister. MR . SPEAKER: - and i: >:here is nobody else 1-1i':o \>'ishes to ask a question, the hen . member ::or La.?o~le . HR . NEARY : Hy ne~o~ q:.testion for the minister deals with boarding homes , licenced boarding homes t~at come u~der the hon. gent leman's care . Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, the government are rather testy on this subject because they l<no1v there are a lot of hardship cases i:t this Province. ~L~ . SPE~~R: A supplementary . :-!.R . NEARY: I arn asking the minister now i£ a~y compensation will be made available to those people, those very dedicated people •.-~ho run licenced boarding homes in this P~ovince so that they can take care of 7 ll fi ::: SPmEJ 3

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2649 AH-1 MR. NEARY: their boarders, of the senior citizens and the sick people and the people who are unfortunate enough to have to live in these homes through no fault of their own. What steps has the minister taken to ask his colleagues to give some extra assistance so that the boarding homes can adequately feed these people and look after them and clothe them? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR.HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I can tell my han. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) ,again, that, you know, we are about ten steps ahead of him. ~1R. MORGAN: And always will be.

SOHE HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: The matter of licensed boarding homes, Hr. Speaker - and some of the things the hon. gentleman says,I,you know, without hesitation concur with him - there is a pressing need, there is a very serious situation as regards to costs and I can concur as well that this is a very vital service, indeed it is one of the main prongs in our programme of services to senior citizens, to be expanded in this Province.

I want to assure the han. gentleman that my department and my staff has been involved in this issue for more than a year now attempting to find some equitable way in which to provide increases per patient to those operators which would not necessarily be too much in some instances and not enough in the other. It is not an easy issue to resolve. I can also say, Mr. Speaker, that at least four of my colleagues have been sitting on my doorstep pressing on this very same subject.

And only yesterday I sat down ''Ti th them and some other people, some operators of licensed boarding homes, and finally, Mr.Speaker, a submission is in the process of being prepared, after collecting all the information and after hearing from my hon. colleague and the ope:::-ators themselves, on its ;.;ay to 7 :j n R

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2649 AH-2 MR. HICKEY: Treasury Board and hopefully some solution and some positive decision will be made in this regard. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for St. Mary's- The Capes. MR.HANCOCK: Thank you,Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health. I am wondering if the Minister of Health (Mr. House) could inform this hon. House as to whether there are any plans to implement or institute a programme of medical examinations for people involved in the food industry in this Province and related activities such as fish plants? MR.SPEAKER: MR.

HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I think there are generally examinations· required for food processing handlers but these examinations are at the cost of the people themselves, they are not implemented by the department. We do recommend examinations and , I think, it is carried out fairly regularly and routinely. '1R. NEARY: MR.HOUSE: SOME HON . ME:M .BERS : You mean it is not a_~equitement? I believe it is a reauirement, yes. Oh, oh! MR. HOUSE: I am saying I am certain it is a reauirement but I want to get the full details on it from the hon. me~er. MR.

SPEAl<ER: A supplementary, the hon.member for St. Mary's- T.he Capes. MR.HANCOCK: Well 1I can assure the minister that it is not mandatory for anybody, especially a cook or anybody entering a fish plant , it is not mandatory to have a medical and in my opinion it should be, Mr. Speaker. When you go to Labrador City,you have to have a medical examination before the company will hire you but you can become a cook down at 7 ij R 7

i'Mil December 4, 1980 Tape 2650 EC - 1 MR. HANCOCK: the Strand or some other establishment around town and a medical examination is not required or you can go to work in a fish plant as a new employee. I would ask the minister to check further into his records and verify whether it is not mandatory, and if it is not,· would he make it mandatory? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, just a year ago we cut out fully - or we did not make it mandatory for all people who are working in any public capacity to have X rays; '.ie cut these out but they still have to have the medical examination. But certainly, I will get the full details for the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. MR. WARREN: the Premier. The hon. the member for Torngat Mr. Speaker, my question is to One of his ministers just said they are ten steps ahead all the time, and yesterday the Premier said they are on top of everything.

I would like to know from the Premier what action has this goverr~ent taken towards the translation of the English language into Inukitut and Indian~ PREMIER PECKFORD : In your district? MR. WARREN: For tile district of Torngat Mountains in particula~ but for the native people of this Province. Do you want me to ask the question agai:r: or do you understand? PREMIER PECKFORD: What do you want? MR. WARREN: What action has your government taken •,:ith respect to the translation of government 7 l_i 6 R

December 4, 1980 MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 2650 EC - 2 brochures into the native tongue? The han. the Premier. I do not know the exact material that the han. member is referr:ng to- all government documentation?r.-Je will attempt as much as we can to put into other languages that are spoken by people who reside in the Province, as much material that comes forth from government as possible. The han. member's word, operative noun, was brochures, I think.

I do not know if he means other - most government documentation that goes to the native people and whether in fact we are trying to ensure that that goes into their languages as much as is possible, or is the hon. member referring to all government publi­ cations in general? MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is not very consi~~ent with his letter to me on July 17th~ PREMIER PECKFORD: preposition. MR. WARREN: Remember the conjunction and the Well, Mr. Speaker, I will try to ask the Premier, probably, a simple question.

To date, how much government literature that is going out to the native people of this Province has been translated into their tongue so that they can understand it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know the answer to that question, Mr. Speaker. I can undertake to get it for the hon. member.

And if he would do me the courtesy, if he is going to ask me a question that concerns correspondence that I had with the hon. member a few months ago, I would like to know the nature of the correspondence and the explicit things mentioned in it because I just do not remember, and I am sorry I do not. 71J6g

December 4, 1980 Tape 2650 EC - 3 MR. \1A..~N : Mr . Speaker , a supplementary . MR . SPEAKER (Simms}: A final suppla~entary, the hon . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR . i'lARREN : ~1r . Speaker , my final supplementary is has this govern."lle nt been in negotiations with the :ederal government co nce .rning the native people's agreement in asking for funds to be allotted in the agreement for this spe cial case of tran sl at:..on? ~~. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. 7 i1 7 n

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2651 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, I will have to take notice of the question and get the information. Obviously the Minister of Rural,Agricultural and Northern Development(J. Goudie) would be in a better position to answer that question.

The native agreement, of cqurse, as the hon. member knows,with the Federal Govern­ ment is negotiated not strictly between the two levels of government but also in consultation and very close con­ sultation with the native groups.so that they have a large part to play in what the final agreement actually is, what the final specifics of it are, so that it is not fair to say that it is just a governmental negotiation process.

It is a process which involves right from the start to the finish the native peoples and so that what comes out at the end is very much the kind of agreement that the native peoples themselves had wanted. But the specific answer to the question of whether there was any funds in the new native agreement specifically for that, I will have to take as notice and get the information for the han. member. MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): Does the han. member for St. Barbe wish to yield. MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. Mr. Speaker, I will yield. The han. member for Torngat MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, one final question to the Premier. I understand from his letter of July 17th that we are looking forward to getting money from the Native People's Agreement, this is what he is saying in his letter. However, if there is no money coming, if there is no possibility of getting any money through the Native People's Agreement. is this government going to be committed 7 ij 7 1

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2651 EL - 2 MR. WARREN: to translation of government brochures that are essential to the people who are natives in tllls Province of being able to read it and t:Xlderstand it? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): rhe hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is a very reasonable rEqUest that we will have to consider, Mr. Speaker. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transportation. I understand, Mr. Speaker, the minister will be lifting the subsidy that presently exists on the Bonne Bay ferry service.

If this is so, I wonder if the minister is aware of the hardship that might be experienced by the people~ Is there going to be an alternate? Just what the minister's plans are for that service? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transport- ation. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, there is some con- sideraticn being given to discontinuing this subsidy on the Bonne Bay ferry but there is no final dicision on it. I sup­ pose 'that would be a Budget decision. There is already an alternate route and I do not see any hardship being created.

In actual fact, what should have happened is when the road was finished and paved,then that ferry subsioy should have been cut off then, because in actual fact what we are doing now is we are subsidizing the tourists of the Province. During the Summer months the number of people who travel on the ferry is quite considerable,and then when the tourist season is over it drops down and levels off and that is the 7 ij 7 ~

= December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2651 EL - 3 MR . BRETT: way it is for ~~e ra~ainder of t;he yea:-. So, in actual fact whac is happening is that the Newfoundland Governme~t is subsicizi~g tte tourist who come into the Province,and I do not think that •Nas ever the intent; .So while no firm decision has been made ,I can say that, as the minister , I am looking at it and personally I think it should be taken off becuase there are places like Bell Island and Fogo and several oth er places around the Province where the money could be more properly spent. ~ffi . BENNETT: A supplementa ry, ~r.Speaker. 7 iJ 7 '=I :~:

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2652 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. T. BENNETT: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. If the minister thinks it is going to be taken off,then I suspect it will, without doubt, be taken off. And if the minister thinks it is an inconvenience and if the minister thinks there is already an alternate service, I think he should take a closer lock. I have just heard the Minister of Social Services (Mr. T. Hickey) explain something about the needy peo~le having quite sufficient funds to meec their everyday needs.

Once that. service comes off 1 • ;e have a lot of people who have to travel across on ferry and it presently costs them half a dollar. And if they have to get a taxi, mind you, around the bay, it is going to cost them up to hlenty bucks. That is only one of the services that is going to be jeopardized. It will cost the Department of Social Services the dollars that the Department of Transoortation might very well be saving.

I understand that the subsidy in place is still in effect for the next two years, I am wondering if i:.te minister will, ---··- in effect, be paying the subsidy out and letting the service deteriorate, or will the minister provide ferry landing services so that the ferry can continue the next two years effectively? It is going to cost quite a few dollars, Mr. Speaker, mind you, to build effective ferry landing services. So I am wondering if the minister is prepared to lose the subsidy and let the ferry boat tie up? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportaticn. MR. C. BRETT: Well, ~1r.

Speaker, I suppose that is a matter of dollars and cents. I would think probably it would be a lot cheaper for the government to pay the subsidy than to go in there and try to upgrade the landing facilities. I do not have the figures with me,but I can assure the hon. member right now that if there is any way in this world to get away from it I will not be doing 71J 7 ! ..

arw December 4, 1980 MR. C. POVJER: in that area. MR. T. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for St. Barbe. ?1R. T. BENNETT: Tape No. 2552 SD - 2 anything with the ferry landings Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. member Very quickly, Mr. Hinister, if it does come about that you eliminate that ferry service by lifting the subsidy, will this be general around the Province or is this an isolated casein Bonne Bay? ~1R. SPEAKER: MR. C. BRETT: The hon. Minister of Transportation . If we discontinue the subsidy, that does not necessarily mean that the ferry will dis­ continue.

The owner and operator of the ferry system can carry on forever more if he is prepared to charge the people enough to break even or make a profit or whatever he wants. But this would be an isolated case, yes, because it is the only place I know of in the Province where you have a road and a ferry operatir_,_, at the sarr.e time. If that occurs in another part of the Province 1 then I will take the same kind of action. I do not see the necessity for both, for a road and a ferry, which is what we have there now. MR. SPEAKER : We have time for one final question and answer. The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. L.

THOMS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) . I understCI.'l.d there are '}Ui t::e a few runaways from the Boys' Homes, the one in Whitbourne and the Waterford Bridge Road Boys' Horne . Can the minister tell me if there are >ny problems in those homes in regards to supervision, security or morale or anything along those lines? MR. Sl:'EAKER: The hon. "inister of Social Services. MR. T. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter 7 1-l 7 c;

d*f= . December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2652 SD - 3 MR. T. HICKEY: of security, it is not a matter of supervision or staff or anything else. It is a matter, Mr. Speaker, and I am not sure that there is any significant increase this year over last year, In fact, I think I am quite safe in going so far as to say that there is not any great increase. Last year there was an increase.

I do not have current figures, I would not be surprised but this year's figures to date might well be on a par with last year because some of the boys and girls who have gone into all three institutions are probably still there, stil~ being cared for. And it boils right down, Mr. Speaker, to two things; one, the type of boy or girl who findshis or her way into the institution and the problems that brought them there or created the situation where we have had to place them there; and~lso, our policy of a kind of openness and a different kind of sitution altogether from what it used to be.

Once upon a time those institutions ,and es9ecially the one at Whitbourne which was, first of all, the first one and only one we had,and then we had the one on Waterford Bridge Road before the Pleasantville one finally carne on stream, and the situation at that time was that there was more custodial care provided and 7 (! 7 6

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2653 DW - 1 f<L-q_. T. HICKEY: it was more of an institution where the doors were locked, etcetera. Over the last number of years that has been completely reversed and the doors are not necessarily locked - MR. S. ~EARY: I unlocked them. MR. T. HICKEY: Yes, the hon. gentleman certainly can take some credit for that. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Order, please! I must bring it to the hon . minister's attention that time has expired. If he wishes to clue up in a cou?le of seconds,I will allow him. SOME HON. ME~1BERS: By leave. HR. SPEAKER: By leave. MR. T. HICKEY: Finally, Mr.

Speaker, let me say that the reason there are boys and girls leaving the school is because they are free to, it is a kind of O?en situation and it is working very well. I do not believe really the situation now is near as bad as it used to be when they were locked up. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, maybe you will recall that yesterday, the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White), I belcceve it was,asked me some questions with respect to the Mahoney inquiry which was established in 1977. In answer to him,I would say that the - MR. L. THOMS: I started the questioning, do not forqet. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: There was a question asked by the hon. member for Lewisporte. lC/77

Decem;,er 4, 1980 Tape No . 2653 D\•l - 2 MR . THOMS: A S'ltlplemem:::a.ry ~1R . SP E.l\KER (Simms ): Order, plea se! MR . G . OTTENREH1ER : ivell, I do not recall \vho asked it, but anyway ,,,hat is important is the answet· . In conversation with ~tr . Just ice Mahoney. ,I am ir.formed that he e"-pects to have it submitted by the end of Ja~uary coming . The cost to date has been $218,200 . There have been no reques -ts for addi - tiona! funding within the oast fet.; month s.As to the fina l cost , we woulc not anticipate !:hat that t.;ould be in excess of an additional approximately $20,onn .

SOME nON . ;.wmERS : MR. SPEJI..KER : SOME HON . ~!EI-1BERS : "'R. SPEAKER : ~I S. VERGE : Oh , oh! Order , olease! Order , please ! Any further answers? Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please ! l~e have :uro::her ans•11ers . The ho n. 1-linis -ter of Education. ~here was a aue sti on raised by the hen . member for Torngat :1ountains (Mr .

War:::en) last \veek , November 28th ., about a change of name of the i:lappy Valley - Goose Bay Sc!'lool Ta.x _ll.uthority , I can no'-1 ad vise th.:t the name of that au~hority was,indeed , changed to the Cer.tral Labrador School '!'a.': Autho rity at the initiation of the aut!"Jority \·th ich comprises a majority of sc hool board representatives . MR . SPEAKER : .l\ny .further answers tc questi.:>ns? 7 (I 7

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2654 NM- 2 MR. BARRY: NON this 11.>as clearly set out to the officials of this C'O!lpaily, am. l-1+. Speaker, we did net ~et a ccm­ pletely positive response. There were some further discussions but eventually it reached the stage where we had to, as members know, introduce legislation of general application which would have applied to the ERCO Company, to the ERCO contract, as to other industrial users of power in this Province. And lo and behold! !11r. Speaker, lo and behold, the message finally got through that we were serious. And Mr.

Speaker, when the message got through, and when the Premi~r reiterated that the time had passed ~ust to have this debated year after year after year in the political arena - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) . MR. BARRY: - when Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: He ran out on the (inaudible). MR. Bl'.RRY: The Premier laid down the guidelines and laid them down very firmly that there was going to be a change, and a change for the benefit of this Province. And, Mr.

Speaker, it was from that clear statement, it was from that expression of intent on the part of this government of determination to see a new deal, to see a new day for this Province in that ERCO arrangement, that finally. Mr.Speake~, reason prevailed, reason prevailed. MR. MORGA.~ : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And when they saw, Hr.Speaker, that the members of this government were determined to bring about a change in the inequitable situation tha~ existed, lo and behold! sweet reason prevailed. And Mr. Speaker, 7 IJ R 1

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2655 EL-l MR. BARRY: that is not to say that there were not tough negotiations. And, in fact, negotiations con­ tinued up until literally the day that I was able to pre- sent the ~ompleted agreement to Cabinet. Literally the day that it was going to Cabinet, Mr. 3peaker, for approval, there were still details to be ironed out. Well, Mr. Speaker, if I could, before getting into the details of the agreement, I could point out that there is a lesson, there is a lesson in what has occurred hete. And that lesson, Mr.

Speaker, that lesson is that when people who are doing business with government, when they see that a goverlli~ent has justice and equity on its side, has the stlpport of the population and the people and has such a clear case of an inequitable sit­ uation, then, Mr. Speaker, you can expect the people who are doing business witrr government to act appropriately. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SI!1MS): Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if the han. the Premier is aware of it or not, but there are about fifty people from NAPE down in the lobby looking for him. Does the han. gentleman intend to go down and meet with them? MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. That is a question more aptly put during Question Period. The han. Minister of Mines and Ener~y. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I realize that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is squirming in his seat - MR. NEARY: No, it is down in the lobby they are squirming. They want to see the Premier. MR.

BARRY: - is just in terrible misery, anguish and pain to see this government in a position to present to the people of Newfoundland such an attractive re-negotiation as that ERCO contract. 71-' B?.

December 4, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: ·-·----·- '--- --- Tape No. 2655 EL-2 Hear, hear! I will deal with you very shortly . And I realize that the member will do anything possible to detract and distract from what is happening here in this House today, Mr. Speaker. What is happening in this House today is that this government is presenting to the people of this Province a new arrangement which will see $146 million in additional revenue come in - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! - to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Oh, oh!

The hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) takes his matters of principle, he is prepared, Mr. Speaker, to trade off the Constitution for a snowplow and he is now prepared to trade off $146 million for a bridge. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: That is exactly the attitude that got us into the ERCO deal in the first place, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: r'IR. BARRY: Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker, we have a situation here where firmness prevailed, where the Province was able to set · out a position that was fair and reasonable, but pointed out very firmly that it was an inequitable situation to have that contract continue where the general consQmer of power or the taxpayer, the general taxpayer, would be subsidizing an industry in this Province, where the costs would exceed the benefits to the Province of the industry. Now, Mr. Speaker, the position of the company, when we presented our case was that well, look, Mr. Barry, well look, Mr.

Premier, Bay d'Espoir would not be there of ERCO had not made the deal with the Govern­ ment of Newfoundland. And, Mr. Speaker, they went on to say that taey treated the Bay d'Espoir power as dedicated to the 7UR'J

Dec~~ber 4, 1980 Tape No . 2655 EL - 3 MR . BAR.~Y: E.RCO industry . :-low, I ca:l understand, I could even sympathize, Mr . Speaker, with the positio n that was put by the c~mpany and we have to recog- nize that they did make a contribution to this Province, seeing an integrated hydro network within the Province. Their purchases of power did supply financial backing that assisted in the development of the electrical power net- work of this Province. Bu~ it was not correct, Mr .Speaker, it was not correct and th is government refu sed to acce:pt that the power of Bay d'Espoir had been dedicated 7081.

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2656 AH-1 MR. BARRY: to ERCO. The power from Bay D'Espoir, Mr. Speaker, was flowing into the provincial grid for the benefit of all Newfoundlanders, and , Mr. Speaker, that was the position that we asserted , the principle that we asserted from day one and that was the principle which prevailed. Again, Mr. Speaker, let nobody misunderstand, I am not standing here in this House and presenting this agreement as the agreement that I would have negotiated starting with a clean slate, starting from scratch. Let nobody misunderstand that. ~1R. STIRL1:-IG: That is not very good. MR.

BARRY: Oh, $146 million? The Leader of the Opposition can decide for himself. And I will want to hear from the Leader of the Opposition what he thinks about it, whether it is very good or not. I want to, Mr. Speaker, hear from the Leader of the Opposition whether he feels it is very good or not. The one inescapab~e fact here, Mr. Speaker, is that there was a company that took the position that we have a firm and binding contract that entitles us to power at a certain right until 1993 and this government has b~ moral suasion, by firmness and determination, Mr.

Speaker, extracted an additional $146 million over the next thirteen years from that contract. Is that good or is that bad? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the bill that has been introduced is a fairly simple bill and one has to look to the agreement to which it refers in order to get the full import of the legislation. The bill merely authorizes the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to enter into a certain agreement with ERCO Industries,which agreement is attached to the act as a

schedule ,and the agreement in itself refers to a certain power agreement which will be entered into between 7 f_i 81

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2656 AH-2 11R.BARRY: kydro and between ERCO Industries Mr. Speaker, if I could just set out some of the highlights of this agreement without taking too m1~ch time 1 the most significant feature of course is the fact that we will move immediately, as of the first of January, 1981, from the fixed rate of 2. 5 mils per kilowatt hour up to 8 mils , Mr. Speaker, 8 mils. And that 8 mi.ls is 3. 2 times the existing power rate so in itself, if there was nothing else, Mr.Speaker, a threefold increase in a power rate, that is not bad. But, Mr.

Speaker, we recognize that the value of energy is going to increase and >ve believe that it is a fundamental principle that this increasing value should be recognized and we persuaded ERCO Industries Limited to agree to an escalation in power rates and it will increase from 8 mils or eight-tenths of a cent in 198l,it will increase up to 30 mils or 3 cents per kilowatt hour, which is twelve times the old rate 1 by 1993. Now, Mr.Speaker, that is an additional, the additional revenue that will come in by this increasing mil rate will compute to $146 million additional revenue to the Province from that agreement.

Now, r1r. Speaker, the statement that was made on the presentation, the introduction of this bill,contained an typographical error. And I have had the opportunity of discussing this already with my friend from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) and it is obvious from the earlier calculationof the $146 million and the mil rate and the number of kilowatt hours,that it could not be benefits exceeding costs by $19 million annually. There was a word 'annually' stuck in there, the gremlins got into the typing of the statement. What was set out in the statement, Mr. Speaker, was that

whereas now the costs 7 lj 8 6

December 4, 1980 Tape 2657 EC - l MR. BARRY: to the Province of the ERCO arrangement exceed the benefits by some $42 million when you calculate it on a present value basis. In other words, you work out how much comes to the Province in sales tax, in salaries and so forth, in corporate tax, personal income tax, other jobs from the multiplier effect and so on, ~ou work out all those benefits and you get so many hundreds of millions of dollars.

And you work out the cost, the biggest cost being, of course, the cost of power, and you get so many hundreds of millions of dollars over the life of the contract, and you subtract the cost from the benefits, you get the costs exceeding the benefits by some $42 million in present value terms. In other words, that so many hundreds of millions of dollars would be the same as if you took $42 million and invested it in the bank today at a 12 per cent discount rate, you would arrive at what right now that contract is costing the Province. The present value of our loss · is $42 million over the life of the contract.

This, Mr. Speaker, has been turned around - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: - so that the benefits now will exceed the costs over the life of the contract by some $19 million. Nineteen million dollars does not sound like a big amount, Mr. Speaker, in the scheme of things. You will see though that moving from a $42 million deficit to a $19 million excess of benefits over costs that there has been a turnaround of some $61 million in present value terms. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe - and I have to get the calculations done; I have so many pages of calculations I will not take the time of the House to go through them. I believe if you took $61 million and invested it in the bank today at 12 per cent, you would arrive at around $146 rr.illion by 1993. That is the way 7 fJ 8 7

December 4, 1980 Tape 2657 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: it is supposed to work anyhow, so my economic advisers tell me. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, I think that for the people of this Province what comes forth is that ~ver the life of the contract there will be an additional $146 million obtained in revenue. Now, Mr. Speaker, we would have liked to have had the take or pay provision of the contract escalate on the same terms and we tried very hard, but we carne to the conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that one could not have every­ thing.

This is one aspect, of course, where if I were negotiating from scratch, I would insist 1 we just would not sell the power otherwise. But when you are in a context of getting a negotiated arrangement, Mr .. Speaker, you give a little, you accept a little. In this case, I think we gave a little and accepted a lot, Mr. Speaker. I also want to stress, Mr. Speaker, that we have given our assurance to ERCO Industries Limited that it will no longer be a political football as far as it is within our power to do so, Mr. Speaker, that the jobs of those people, Mr.

Speaker, employed in that ERCO plant are assured, we believe, and that they should not be subjected to the uncertainties created by the continuation of that industry being a political football. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: We have, Mr. Speaker, dealt with that company firmly, decisively, and that company saw the light. That company finally had sweet reason prevail and sat down with us man to man, face to face and renegotiated a new arrangement. And, Mr. Speaker, I am proud to say that I can applaud ERCO Industries Limited and its parent company, Albrigh~ lvilson, for this example of 7 iJ R 8

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2658 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: how a good corporate citizen should deal with the government of the Province in which it operates. MR. THOMS: that? !1R. BARRY: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: r-'.R. BARRY: Do you have to take the credit for Mr. Speaker, unlike - Oh, oh! Order, please! - unlike the nineteen-or-so-odd individuals on the other side of the House, on this side we have a team. SOME RON. MEMBERS: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: SOME RON. MEMBERS : HR. BARRY: Hear, hear! Right on! Right on; We have a team. Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker, our government believes that ERCO Industries has now established itself as a good corporate citizen in good standing with this Province. The families, the employees dependent upon the ERCO plant should recognize and applaud ERCO for its commitment to the Province and for acting as such a good corporate citizen. Now we made certain concessions­ again let nobody misunderstana here - we made certain concessions. MR. MARSHALL : State then. MR.

BARRY: We have agreed - I am going to fully, I hope - we agreed that for the remaining thirteen years of the power contract no new major industrial user would obtain incentive rates lower than those that would be given to ERCO. Okay? MR. FLIGHT: I guess not. 7 !J 8 q

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2658 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: I do not think we were giving too much away there. I think we can live with that. MR. FLIGHT: Not if you give (inaudible) MR. BARRY: And if that happened,we will reduce the ERCO rates accordingly. Mr. Speaker, there was another technical matter where under the agreement the consent of government is required for the repayment of loans from ERCO to Albright, W~lson. And

whereas it is something that I believe legally is the type of thing which consent will not be unreasonably withheld and if the company decided to go to court they could force government's consent, we have agreed that we will not, prcvided the bondholders of ERCO agree, we will not stand in the way of ERCO repaying the $8 million loan owing to Albright, Wilson. We have also, Mr. Speaker, given ERCO a ten year option to buy further power. and I think we would all agree that we would like to see that industry continue to provide the 300 to 400 jobs that are from time out there at Long Harbour, but not at the same price, Mr. Speaker, not at the same price. And

whereas this is a very significant concession from the company's point of view, because we could have cut them off, bang,in 1993, and they would have just had to pull up sticks and go somewhere el~e. They realize that would not be too profitable for them as a corporate entity. We have made it clear, Mr. Speaker, that we are interested in seeing this industry continue, but after 1993 the rates which this company will pay will be the rates prevailing for other industrial consumers. There will be no special rates after 1993. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 71.1 q n

December 4, 1980 Tape No . 2658 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: Mr. Spe~ker, I want to congratulate ERCO o~ the businesslike manner in which they have conducted their recent negotiations and we, as a government, wiosh them every success. I think that we shou~d take note of the fact.and there are other places in the world where this is happening, that people are prepared to recognize t."lat a contract is not necessaril y always a contract. And there are other groups with whom we are dealing that this factor I guess is of some signficance: A contract is not always a contract. Mr.

Speaker, I guess most of us know the great Westinghouse Corporation in the united States. The 1-lestinghouse Coporat ion I guess sold a lot of refrigera-:ors in Newfoundland , and is I guess one of the bigger companies of its kind in the world. A few years ago it got into the building of nuclear reactors ~~d as part of the deal of building nuclear reactors it also, forgetting the old motto that t.":e cobbler should stick to his last, Nestinghouse got into the business of supplying uranium. And l'lestinghouse entered into a deal with companies 7( 1 !=11

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2659 SD - 1 !-1R. L. BARRY : in the United States to supply them with uranium at a certain price. And lo and behold the price of uranium skyrocketed and if Westinghouse had to comply with its agreement to supply uranium it would have gone bankrupt. Mr. Speaker, what did Westinghouse do? Did it say a contract is always a contract and permit itself to go bankrupt? No, Mr. Speaker, what it did was say, 'We will not compl v '"i th these terms to supply uranium at this price because, Mr. Speaker, and these are the operative words, 'it would be a commercial impracticability'.

They were taken to court by their customers naturally and Westinghouse said, 'Sorry, customers, this is understandable, your taking us to court, but let me tell you we are going to fight this tooth and nail to the highest courts in the land. We are going to fight it for years, we are- going to fight it for decades, we will fight it as long as we have to because we are not going to qo bankrupt by living up to a ridiculous agreement which changing times, changing events have now made a commercial impracticability,' What happened, Mr. Speaker?

What happened was that the customers recognized, 'What could >vesting house do?' So if the customers insisted that thev supply the uranium and thev go bankrup~ who would supply the uranium then? They settled, Mr. Speaker, they all arrived at out of court settlements - and this is all a matter of public record in the United States - they settled, and, Mr. Speaker, they renegotiated the contract. Mr. Speaker, I just learned through speaking with New Zealand dipolmats a few months ago , New Zealand had a contract with an aluminium smelter for po wer at fixed rates.

The New ~ealand government,with the cost of power skyrocketing ~s it skyrocketed everywhere in the world since 1973, I guess, and the Arab oil embargo and the increase in the price of oil and therefore the increase in the value of equivalent energy. Mr. Speaker, New Zealand 7U92

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 26.59 SD - 2 HR. L. BARRY: said, 'What is going on here, this is madness.' They did not say a contract is a contract, they said, 'This is total lunacy, this is total insanity for us to have to continue to sell power to this firm for year after year after year at this totally ridiculous price'. They said to the firm involved, 'We must"renegotiate our contract'. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned these just to point out to you that what is happening here in this Province with respect to this contract and with respect to at least one other situation, Mr.

Speaker, is not something that is totally unknown to either the legal, commercial or political worlds. We have, Mr. Speaker, in the legal, political and commercial worlds hopefully men of good sense, men of reason, men of good will who are able to get down around the table when they have a problem that results in an inequity and unfairness, reasonable men can sit down, Mr. Speaker, around the table and they can work out a resolution given, and I stress this, given the good intent, the bona fide intent on both sides to arrive at a fair resolution, a fair settlement of the problem. Mr.

Speaker, we have started s~mething in this Province that will be of benefit to our people. There are, unfortunatel y , other areas where there are messes still to be cleaned up,and God knows it takes a long time, it takes a lot of time and effort to clean up some of the messes that have been left 1 but we are getting there, Mr. Speaker, we are getting there and I am proud to have been part of the cleaning up of this particular mess and I am proud to say that we will now have 71_!~~

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2660 EL - 1 MR. BA;RRY: an arrangement with ERCO In- dustries which is something that government ~an live with in that it is of benefit to the peeple of the Province. It is something that ERCO Industries can live with in that they will still be obtaining power at rates competitive with other areas of the world,and I am sure, Mr. Speaker, it is something that the men and women of Long Harbour, as my friend from Placentia (W.Patterson) can attest to, that relieves a great burden and a great source of anxiety from thier lives. And Mr.

Speaker, I would ask all members of this House to support this Bill which has been placed before this House. I would ask all members to underline that we support this government's position of dealing firmly but fairly with everybody with whom we do business. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Butt): The hon.member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr.Speaker.

I would want ~o say to the minister,because I know he was sincere when he wound up the debate in saying that if you are dealing with good men of good will anything is possible,but I would want to say to him, Sir, that when that industry was estab­ lLshed in 1966 it was establLshed by good ~en with good will. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ·FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, there is no ques- tion that this bill will improve the situationof ERCO at Long Harbour, there is no question of that. The $146 million may indeed be a fact that it will be a net gain in the long run to the Province, no question about that.

There is no 7 I) !1 ~

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2660 EL-2 MR. FLIGHT: question also, Mr. Speaker, that ERCO has become a political football. ERCO has been kept to the attention of the general public this past - since l966 for two big reasons. One, they were always re­ minded of the dangers of the environment, the dangersto the environment. Remember the Placentia Bay incident? We recall a couple of years ago the debate in this House re­ garding the environmental damages. As long as ERCO was being kept before the people's attention in that way, the people were realizing the gross unfairness that existed in that power contract. And, Mr.

Speaker, it is very interesting in the Premier's statement here. He says, 'Since I became Premier, during the past eighteen months with representatives of ERCO.' Well, I will tell the minister that one of the first questions that I ever asked in this House in 1976 was when we were going to start negotiating with ERCO to re-negotiate that contract. That was four years ago. And the Premier says, 'As you are aware - ~1R. BARRY: Since his administration. MR. FLIGHT: Since his administration! Well, he was the Minister of Mines and Energy when I asked my question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am not concerned about a time limit on this, Mr. Speaker, I am simply concerned in making a few points. And I fail to understand sorr.e of the points the minister made. He pointed out that we will save $146 million, that there will be a net gain to this Province, that is indeed true. But, Mr. Speaker, let not the word go cut from this House that the subsidy to ERCO has ended. 'I·he subsidy may well be, Mr. Speaker, before the end of this contract,in excess; we may 71J 9 5

.. December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2660 EL - 3 MR. FLIGHT: pay more than $146 million in·subsidies to ERCO over the next thirteen years in the life of this contract, Mr.Speaker. Let me tell this House and the media or the people of Newfoundland who are concerned - and let me say also, :1r. Speaker, before I do,the reason the people of Newfoundland were so concerned about the ERCO arrangement was that they watched their power escalate this past five or six or seven years to a rate that they could not afford to pay. They could not stand the rate of escalation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

FLIGHT: And they wondered out loud why it is ' that an industrial user like ERCO could continue to get the kind of subsidies t~at they could not get. There i5 no question, Mr. Speaker, that ERCO was operated this past years off the backs of the people of Newfoundland, and they are ;oing to continue to operate, Mr. Speaker, until 1993 off the backs of the people of Newfoundland. No guestion~out that, Mr. Speaker, about the subsidy. Just listen, the cost to generate power in this Province today,Br.

Speaker, is ten mils for Bay d'Espoir, 30 mils per killowatt hour- 10 mils per killowatt hour at Bay d' Espoir, 30 roils per killowatt hour at Hinds Lai<·a, 40 mils per killowatt hour at the Upper Salmon and 40 mils per killowatt hour at Holyrood today. And that is basing oil at $14.00 a barrel, thanks to the Canadian subsidy. lli q s

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2661 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, to average that out and to blend it, t~1e blended cost of a kilowatt hour of electricity in this Province today is in excess of thirty mils per kilowatt hour. Thirty mils, Mr. Speaker, thirty mils per kilowatt hour The cost is right here,Mr. Speaker,and anybody can check the figures. HR. R. MOORES: The minister had his chance. HR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, in 1980 underthe new contract - let me get the figures here, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in 1980 the price stays at 2.5 mils. The subsidy -I have not worked it out, Hr.

Speaker, but it is in excess of $11 million. But listen, Mr. Speaker, in 1981 the subsidy-we charge ERCO 8 mils per kilowatt hour, 8 mils. That electricity is costing this Province 30 mils to generate. We will be subsidizing ERCO, Mr. Speaker, in 1981, the first year of this rearranged agreement,by roughly 22 mils per kilowatt hour for a cost to this Province of roughly $11 million per year. That is in 1981, Mr.Speaker. ~~. MOORES: At least Joey did not know the price of oil was going to go up. MR. FLIGHT: In 1981, Mr. Speaker, we will be subsidizing in excess of $11 million.

In 1982, Mr.Speaker, we will be subsidizing ERCO in excess of $11 million. And, Mr. Speaker, let us assume that that holds true, let us assume we take that through to 1987; and we cannot really because we know the price of oil is going to escalate to world prices. M.P.. MOORES: ~.R. FLIGHT: Right. 1'/e know it.The minister knows it. So on that basis, by 1986 or 1987 if we go to world prices,hydro generated by Holyrood will be 80 mils instead of the 40 it is today. So , Mr.

Speaker, there is hardly any way, there is hardly any way to determine what the power being generated in this Province in 1986 is going to be costing. But I '"ill guarantee you, ~1r. Speaker, 7 IJ ~ 7

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2661 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: the cost to this Province will escalate faster than the increase that ERCO MR. MOORES: SOME HON.MEMBERS : !1R. FLIGHT: The real dollar value,yes . Hear, hear! The cost to this Province ,Mr. Speaker, into 1987 will escalate , based on the assumption that oil will continue to escalate, the cost to this Province will escalate greater than the price that ERCO will pay , escalate under this new deal, under this new contract. MR. HOORES: SO~~ HON.ME!1BERS: MR. FLIGHT: Shamel Hear,hear! Now, Mr.

Speaker, if we take th~t on into 1987, because the Province tells us - and they had better be right - MR. MOORES: Talk about Smallwood's sell-out. MR. FLIGHT: If we take that on, Mr. Speaker, to 1987 when we say Gull Island will come on, well,Gull Island power will cost this Province 65 mils, the blended pri9e forgetting the cost of oil because Holyrood is still going until 1987. The blended cost then goes to almost 40 mils per kilowatt hour. Now if we leave it at that, 11r. Speaker, if we leave it at that,in the last year of the contract, 1993,we will be subsidizing ERCO by in excess of $5 million in 1983.

It could well be a lot more, Mr. Speaker, because if Gull Island does not come on, if we do not have the Lower Churchill power by 1987 ,as the minister says,and we increase our generating capacity in this Province,the only way we have left to increase it by thermo-fired -ii we increase Holyrood's capacity/God knows what the cost will be because nobody knows how far oil is going to go in the next eight or ten years. We could well be looking at 100 mil power. Now that appears to me to be still a pretty good deal for ERCO, Mr. Speaker.

Now I want to go on record here, EJUt this side on record to say that we support this legislation . It is an 7 fJ 9 R

December 4,1980 Tape No . 2661 AH -3 ~'IR . FLIGi:T : improvement in the situation , there is no c:;:uestion about it ,but let not the word go out across this Province that this Provin~e is not on tne hook to subsidize ERCO very likely in e:<cess of the $146 miLlion the min ister talks about having saved . We are stil l on the hook for ERCO, Mr . Speaker. MR . THOHS : million? ~Te are not going to make $146 7 ij 9 Q

December 4, 1980 Tape 2662 EC - l MR. FLIGHT: We are not going to make anything. The ERCO industry is going to cost this Province in excess of $146 million in subsidies, it does not matter what happens. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~JlR. FLIGHT: It does not matter what happens, Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province will probably subsidize ERCO in excess of $146 million over the life of this contract. the figures again. SOME HON. ~ffiMBERS: MR. Bl>.RRY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : hearing the hon. member. MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at Oh, oh! Let us go through the figures. Order, please!

I have trouble Now, let me agre~ with the minister that I may not have - because, as he knows, it is very, very difficult to come up with an exact figure on the cost of electrical generation in this Province. It is practically i~possible. He has the research people, he has all of the energy ?eoole available to him. MR. MOORES: Right. MR. FLIGHT: But in the research that I have done - and I have had some people who understand, the figures are there, Mr. Speaker. We know ~vhat it is costing to generate, we know what the Upper Salmon is corning on at, 40 mils.

We know Hinds Lake carne on at 30 mils, we know that Bay d'Espoir is going at 10 mils right now, cost to generate. And, by the way, in Upper Salmon and Hinds Lake, that excludes the cost of getting that power to the grid. So Hinds Lake will be in excess of JO mils, Upper Salmon will be in excess of 40 mils because of the transportation. 71nn

December 4, 1980 Tape 2662 EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, under the new deal, under this contract that is fair to the company and thatgovernment can live with - and the minister said, 'I would not have presented this contract had I been starting from scratch.' Well, I do not suppose he would. I do not suppose that he would be prepared to negotiate a contract that would watch this Province subsidize a company like ERCO by $11 million in the first four or five years of the contract. HP.. MOORES: Not true. Not true. MR. FLIGHT: And, Mr.

Speaker, what is almost laughable in this bill - and the minister was serious - MR. HOORES: They sold (inaudible) . HR. FLIGHT: - he said, 'We have promised ERCO that if any industrial user in this Province gets power cheaper than this contract says, that they will get the benefit of that cheap power.' Well, what a laugh, Hr. Speaker. After 1987, Mr. Speaker, the cheapest power that we can generate in this Province is 65 mil power and he makes a big deal of telling ERCO that nobody is going to get it for less than 30 mils.- SOME RON. l.ffiMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: HR.

BARRY: HR.FLIGHT: That is supposed to be a big deal. (Inaudible) did not get very much (inaudible}. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us put this contract in its perspective. All that is happening is that this government is cutting our losses. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. FLIGHT: The y are reducing the subsidy. Whether they could ha ve reduced it by a lot more, I do nc:: kn ow. The indication in the legislation, Mr. Speaker since the minister has allowed ERCO to repay the $8 nillion plus interest to Albright, l'lilson, the indication is that ERCO will be making mone y over the next few years. 7 1 0 1

December 4, 1980 Tape 2662 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Because I suppose if there were any doubt that ERCO was indeed going to make money, he would not have lifted that particular restriction. There is an awful danger of a multi-national, a company like Albright, Wilson, deciding to take out their money and go home. It has been known to happen before in the world, Mr. Speaker.

So I presume the minister and the Premier who have negotiated this deal have made certain that ERCO will indeed make money, they will make enough to pay off Albright, Wilson and pay for the electrical consumption they are going to use in their future operations. But if that is so then, if they are going to make money, the ques~ion is, Mr. Speaker, could the minister have got a better deal? As of this day, .t-lr. Speaker, the subsidy - remember this, that Bay d'Espoir power is coming on at 10 mils, ERCO was paying 2.5 mils and the chances are, Mr.

Speaker, that the subsidy that we are going to be looking at today is greater than the subsidy that ERCO was being given when they were taking their power from Bay d'Espoir. MR. MOORES: Right. MR. FLIGHT: We are probably giving them a bigger subsidy as a result of this contract than the original subsidy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: MR. BARRY: SOME P.:ON. !-!EMBERS : HR. BARRY: MR. FLIGHT: MR. BARRY: MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! The minister can dispute that. Are you out of your mind? Oh, oh! Come on! Come on! No, Mr. Speaker. The facts are there. Mr.

Speaker, in 1968 - I will stand on the figures - in 1968 ERCO was paying 2.5 mils. 7 1 [l?

De~embe r 4, 1980 Tape 2662 EC - 4 MR. BARRY: For 10 mils - MR . FLIGHT : I do not know lot!lat it cost in 1968 to generate power in this Prcvince~ Can the minister tell me the cost to generate per kilowatt hour in Bay d'Espoir? MR. NEARY : MR. MOORES : MR. FLIGHT : exactly - HR . BA..~Y : MR . FLIGHT : MR . NEARY : MR. BARRY : MR •. ,FLIGHT: ~.BARRY: 2.5 mils. That is right. 2.5 mils? I do not know ~o, just under a mils. Just under 8 mils. Not at that time . It was 2.5 mi ls. I thought you asked me •l!hat it: cost now. Oh, no1.; it is :c :-:i!.:. . It is just unde~ 8 ~il s. 710 1

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2663 D\'7 - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: It is just under eight. We will accept - the figures are right enough, Mr. Speaker, to make the case, to make the points we have made. MR. NEARY: They are wrong but they are right. MR. G. FLIGHT: They are right. The figures are right. Let the minister have a chance to dispute the figures. MR. L. BARRY: You are making a point but it is not the point that the subsidy would be greater than it 1vould have been before. 1-Je are getting an extra $146 million. MR. G. FLIGHT: That was the first year of the agreement.

Talk about the first year of the agreement - SOME HON. ~MBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! The hon. menber has the floor and every hen. member has the right to be heard in silence. M..'R.. G. FLIGHT: "'lr. Speaker, I do not know - I would accept whatever figure the minister gives me as to what the cost to generate a kilowatt hour of electricity from Bay d'Espoir was in 1968, what it was costing this Province. MR. L. BARRY: Just under eight mils. MR. G. FLIGHT: c;ruess? MR. L. BARRY: not here. MR. G. FLIGHT: three mils. MR. NEARY: MR. G. FLIGHT: 1968.

Would the minister hazard a I do not know because I was All right, let us say, it was Let us give the minister the benefit of the doubt . ~•o and cne half. Two and one half mils. So Erco was given the power, Mr. Speaker, in 1980 at cost. In the first year of this new agreement, negotiated bv this government that the minister is so ;:>roue of, ERCO is beins given the power at one-third of the cost of the gene~ation. 7 '1 Cit.

·December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2663 DW - 2 SOME HON. ~E~1BERS: Hear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: In 1981, Mr. Speaker, ERCO is going to pay eight mils.To generate that power, Mr. Speaker, is qoing to cost this Province close to thirty mils. M:R. BARRY: (Inaudible) the first agreement for 2.5 mils . MR. G. FLIGHT: Oh, yes, but let us talk about this agreement, let us talk about this contract, let us talk about the big deal - MR. MOORES: What is your point? MR. G. :SLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, in the first year that this contract was negotiated,ERCC was given power at cost, 2.5 mils in l968,at cost,possibly to attract an industry, possibly for all the reasons but at cost, 2.5 mils . In this ,new ccntract, Mr. Speaker, ERCC is being given power at one-third of the cost of generation in this Province today. MR. MOORES: Now, there it is. MR. G. FLIGHT: There it is. That will tell you the kind of a subsidy we are going to be looking at for ERCO, that will tell you, Mr. Speaker, whether this - I was afraid, Mr. Speaker, I was afraid the word would go out the way the hon.

Premier ~vhen he is making a Premier's state- ment or a Ministerial Statement in this House or a minister making a statement in this House - I was afraid the word would go out - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! .MR. SPEAKER (Baird) Order, ?lease! r<lR. G. FLIGHT: - and it may well have gone out, the word may well have gone out that Newfoundland is going to make $146 million on the power that we sell to ERCO. Mr. Speaker, if I do nothing else I will make sure - and again in supporting the legisla- tion because the truth of the matter is, of course, if this legislation were not brought in then the subsidy would 7 1 [is

Decer.:ber 4, 1980 l'ape No . 2563 DN - 3 :.1?. . G. cL.:GnT : obviously be that much higher. But, ~r . Speaker , let me say to the mLnister, in vie\.; of the cost to the ?rovince o: generation of po wer over the next thirteen years , Mr . Speaker, I have to ask the minister if any better deal could not have bee n got . And 1o1hen he talks about guaranteeing ERCO tha ·t no othe r industrial t:ser coming i:1to this Province 1•ould get pow er less ':han ERCO is getting it for , I • . .;ant his assurance , & .

Speaker, that he is not prepared to sit c!ow-n with any industrial user or any potent ia l customer or any aluminum plant or anyth~ng else and be prepared to talk about SUP?lyin~ power at one-third cf t.'fJe cost of generation in this Province . ~r . Speaker , let us look at the last year, 1993 . We are going to be charging ERCO thirty mils per kilo1o~att hour . The cost of generation, !'!r . Speaker , the ~inimum, the very minimum cost of gene rat ion will have to be arounc tlll=ty-seven mils .

In the last year of this contract , we ~Ti l l be giving ERCO, sub si dizing ERCO 's energy needs by seven mils per )t;.lowat:t hour, around S5 million in th e last year in 1993 . And the minister talks aboc.t giving ERCO lower rate s if somebody else gets lower rates . SOME " HON . MEMBERS : Rear , hear! MR . G. FLIGF.T : The logic defies explanation , 71 fjf;

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2664 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: r1r. Speaker. We are going to support the bill, Mr. Speaker. And I do not want to take away from the points made by getting on - the minister was tempted to get into some political - Al'J HON. MEMBER: What about that? MR. FLIGHT: - points a few minutes ago. He did not do bad,though. He got up and he talked about the bill. MR. MOORES: Another Come By Chance. MR.

P'LIGHT: And I believe he would like to have talked about the bill in a way so the message would have gone out that this was a great contract, that now Newfoundland is going to save a lot of money and that this government has saved a lot of money for us. Well,the contract that this company has just negotiated with ERCO will cost this Province in subsidies over the next thirteen years millions and millions and millions of dollars. ERCO will still survive on the backs of Newfoundlanders - MR. MOORES: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: - just as much as they ever survived, just as much as they ever survived. MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible)« week. r1R. FLIGHT: I am only pointing out, Mr. Speaker, I am only pointing out to the people of Newfoundland what they have a right to have pointed out to them. And this speech of the Premier's here, Mr. Speaker - there is nothing in this, Mr. Speaker, suggesting the kind of subsidy that we will continue to pay ERCO. So, Mr. Speaker , 7 1 0 7

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2664 RA - 2 MR. FLIGHT: we should go through those figures again I suppose. I am not sure if the minister - MR. BARRY: The House Leader will get up(inaudible) AN HON. HEMBER: Are you ready for this bill? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, there are some funny points in this bill too. Really funny. There is some indication here somewhere about how EF.CO ·.vas an industry utilizing our natural resources. lvell, Mr. Speaker, I did not know the phosphorus was a natural resource in Ne,<Tfound­ land.

Up to this day I did not know the phosphoru!O was a natural resource. To me saying that ERCO is utilizing a Newfoundland resource would be like saying that we will buy some gasoline from Ultramar, buy some rice from China and make packaged chinese rice. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, ERCO is utilizing our natural resource, ERCO Mr. Speaker, is abusing, Mr. Speaker, - MR. MOORES: Destroying our natural resources. MR.

FLIGHT: - we are paying ERCO, we are pay- ing ERCO to the tune of millions and millions and millions of dollars under this new contract negotiated by the govern­ ment to use our hydro, to use Newfoundland hydrc, to guarantee that the cost of electricity to the average consumer in this Province is far beyond anything he can afford. Now, Mr. Speaker, the people have been demanding, the people have been demanding 7 ·1 !! A

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2664 RA - 3 MR. E'LIGHT: over this last few for the government to do something about the ever escalating cost of electricity, and they have been pointing at ERCO contract as grounds for that argument. Well,they will still have just as much reason to point at the ERCO contract from now to 1983,Mr. Speaker, as they ever had because the subsidy to ERCO under this con­ tract will be just as blatant to the people of Newfoundland as the subsidy was prior to this,Mr. Speaker. MR. MOOREs·: And the fact that the subsidy is reduced will not reduce eleot~ical rates. MR. FLIGHT: And Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the House ~eader , the senior man, the hon. the President of the Council, the senior man left now that all the rest have fled, let me ask him what does he propose to do, he is going to save $146 million on the subsidy. The subsidy now instead of being about, instead of being abou~ $300 million over the next thirteen years, he is going to save $146 million around that on that sub­ sidy. Now, I want to ask him what he is going to do with that Sl46 million. Is he going to give the poor people of this Province a break on their electrical rates?

Will he take that $146 million now and apply it across to sub­ sidize the electric rates of consumers in this Province that cannot afford to pay the kind of rates they are looking at? And as the power escalates,as we get into 70 and 80 and 90 kilowatt hour power- AN HON. ~~MBER: Mil power. MR. FLIGHT: -90 mil power, as we get into 90 mil power in this Province, will he take the $146 million that the Premier wants to talk about and apply that to subsidize the cost of that power to the old aaed pensioners in this Province, 7 1 Cl a

Oece~~er 4, 1980 MR . FLIGHT: MR . M:'.ORES: !.ffi . ?LIGHT : Tape No . 2664 RA - 4 the people on fixed incomes? Yes or no? Will he do t!'tat? .-1hat does he wa.~t to do with the $146 million? Or will it be plowed back into gene ral revenue to he lp balance the budg et? ;.<.R . l·10 0RES : Buy a few more ~1R. FLIGHT : To cut back on hydro bills . MR . :-lC ORES : Buy a faw more flags . MR . FLIGHT: so, ~tr . Speaker, I have W4de all ~,e points I wan t to make on the bill . ~lr . Speaker, it is a bill in a sense; the bill will serve one purpose, it serves to reduce now our subsidy into ERCO aut Mr .

Speaker, let no-one be under the mis ~1R . :>!OORES: Appre..'lens ion . ~~. FLIGHT: - misapprP~ension, let nobody mis - interpret this bill,w~t in the 111 n

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2565 SD - l MR. G. FLIGHT: first year of this contract the best this government could do was to negotiate an agreement that would cost this-Prov1nce $11 million. In the second year,in excess of $11 million; that is the best this government could do. We are subsidizing up until 1985, Mr. Speaker, we are subsidizing this ERCO plant anywhere between $8 to $11 million. If Gull Island does not come on, 'l'le may be subsidizing b"J.em by - .it will be out of sight because we 1vill be talking about 100 mil power if we have to generate it by oil.

So the ministry and the hon. government had better make sure that the Upper Churchill or the Lower churchill - they had better make sure, Mr. Speaker, that they are prepared to proclaim that legislation or get Gull Island - Muskrat on stream and into this Province before 1987 because I will guarantee you if they do not the subsidy that we have been paying ERCO up to this point may be nothing to the subsidy we will have to pay under this much touted agreement. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SO~.E HON. !>ffiMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (B~tt) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~-1R. S. NEARY : SOME HON. r-1EMBERS : MR. PATTERSON: is rubbish.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. PATTERSON: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Placentia. Hear, hear. Now the dirt will fly, the rubbish. Oh, oh. You had better go out then if it Oh, oh! Far be it from me, Mr. Speaker, to enter into any verbal argument with the John Kenneth Galbraith of the op posite sid e. SOME HON. :-!EMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. PATTERS ON: A man of my humbl e be ginnings 'N'i th little knowledge of economics . 1vould not dare enter into an argu ment wit h the me mber for 1-Jinds or - Buchans (Mr.Fli ght) I t!->.ink he should be the 1-1inister of Finance, the shadow 71 "11

December 4, 1980 ~·IR. PATIERSCN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W. PATTERSON: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. PATTERSON: Tape No. 2565 minister over there. Hear, hear. I am sure - Oh, oh. l'IB - 2 - his Liberal friends up in Placentia district, the few ·left up there who I did not wipe out in the last election :md there w-ere four who ran against me. Sm.ffi HON. MEMBERS : MR. PATTERSON: up there. SOME HON. )lEMBERS : HR. PATTERSON: A.."< HON. MEMBER: ii1R. PATTERSON: Oh, oh! The next election there will be none Right on, right on. Remember that. Hear, hear.

Now if the hon. gentleman's knowledge of economics is no better than his of natural resources- A.t."'\1 HON . MEMBER: No dirt. MR. PATTERSON: No dirt at all. No dirt. No dirt at all. He talked about the element phosphorus that is used is making liquid phosphorous. You forgot all about the quartz mine up at Dunville. &\1 nON. MEMBER: MR. PA'fTERSON: Hear, hear. Did not know anything about it,boy. The people who brought that in- <lustry into Newfoundland ~re a government by inspiration and the Leader was up in the al.r _ll_nd who put him up there?

We >ay the Russians had the first man in space,but we had him, :lnd whenever he looked down - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. PATTERSON: And wherever that man was at any given particular moment and he lo oked down ,he said a battery plant should go there and a phosphorus plar.t should go there, and at Come By Chance,a~ ~il refinery, and a rubber plant should go there. Possibl y if the rubber plant had been managed it would have been the only safe industry we had. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 71 'j ?

December 4, 1980 Tape ~o . 2565 ME - 3 ~1R . PATTERSON: I remember well the coming o! Come By Chance and I remem~er well the coming of the ERCO ?lant and I remember well the steel ;>lant They all came in Septem~er of 1966 . And it was dangerous to gc out in the ?lacentia dis~rict wi~hou~ a steel helmet on because your former leader ~ta s ~unning aroum:i. with a bag of dynamite, a fuse and a box and pulling a hose her~ and a helicopter picking him up and off to Come Sy Chance and then off to Donov~~s to the 3teel plan~ .

Now he was o,;ondering why - you stated there that ERCO Industries was kept before the public . Rightly so , thev should have been kept before che public . SQ!.IE HCN . ~~.BERS : Oh, oh ! :~ . ?.~.TT£RSON: We experienced the pollution problem in Pl~centia Bay and when that problem was brought to the attention of the gover nment,on e of the top men over there,who is ~ot there toda y but is stil l a member of the governm en~, said it •va s the eru?tion around the :iery ring of ~~e Pacific tha~ reddened the herring in Placentia Bay, they ~-tould not admit it was the phosphorus .

But this government took the matter by the horns and had this survey done 711 ~

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2666 EL - l MR. PATTERSON: and came up with thirty recommendations which ERCO Industries are prepared and are cleaning up. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Crosbie MR. PATTERSON: I do not know what Crosbie said. But I do not have to get people to put words in my mouth, I will tell you straight.But ERCO Industry was before the public because it was a ve~y contentious nssue and,as the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) pointed out,ERCO was not contributing anything to Newfoundland, but now they are, they are contributing. Is $146 million better than $2.00? Is it better or is it not?

Do you want us to close ERCO? Do you want us to go out and grab them by the throat and send them back to England? We are not that type of a govern­ ment. We are looking for a fair deal. We could have gone the whole hog on this. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) down in Come By Chance. MR. PATTERSON: We did not have a thing to do with Come by Chance. It was your buddy, Shaheen, who transferred $50 million out of it over to his own companies and did not pay for his crude, That is what happened in Come by Chance, my son. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: Now, you might wonder they went $600 million in debt.

A suuertanker cost $20 million. They had one over at Kuwait loading , one on~the high seas, one at Come By Chance, that is $60 1 000,000 and they turned that around five times and they were $300,000,000 in debt to Attaca. Now, you want us to go and give that company back to Shaheen again. Is that what you want? Cannot you shed yourselves of the giveaway policies? · Can you not get up and shake your- selves? 7 1 1 ij

December 4, 1980 AN HON. MEMBER: MR. PATTERSON: t~lking about TApe No. 2666 EL - 2 Talk about the bill. Never mind the bill. I am Come by Chance, talking about ERCO and talking about the giveaways. But I can assure you that your friend Mr. Hogan in Dunville will not be a bit happy tonight with you people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. PATTERSON: And the few Liberals that are left up there will not be too happy with the member for Windsor - Buchans(G. Flight). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear 1 hear~ MR. PATTERSON: And this is a great bill, it is a great bill for the taxpayers of Newfoundland.

It is a great bill for the people of Placentia district who tonight can go to bed and know that their jobs are secure. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. PATTERSON: They did not know that when you fellows were there. And I would say it is a great favour to rabbits in Placentia district, that the flouride has been cleaned up, :nanks tc this government. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member fer LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to deal with a point made by the member for Placentia (W.Patterson) - AN HON.

MEMBER: lqhy did he make one? MR. NEARY: - and he did not make very many points. The hon. gentleman gets up and tries to be humourous, but the hon. gentleman during the course of his few brief remarks mentioned that this company had contributed nothing 71 ·j s

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2666 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: to Newfoundland. Now, let me remind r-IR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hoJ:J. gentleman said we are going to save $146 million from a company that contributed nothing to this Province, nothing, absolutely nothing, zilch, zero. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman's constituents would be interes~ed in hearing that statement because I can tell the hon. gentlem~n I - let me first of all say, Mr. Speaker, that we would not be discussing this matter, there would be nothing to re:negotiate if it was not for the Liberal Government.

They would have nothing to - SOME HON. ~~MEERS: !.ffi. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, this is their crowning glory, this is their first success, their first success since 1972. This is their one and only success, renegotiating a contract from a company that was brought in here in 1968 by the Liberals. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me show t.he House this company has contributed nothing to the economy of this Province. In power alone, electricity, they have paid $11,826,000. In fuel, oil,crude, fuel, heating fuel and so forth, $12,335,000.

Not bad for a company that has contributed nothing to the economy of this Province. In transport, in trucking and the like, $5,300,000, a great deal of which went to my hon. friend's district,to his constituents, $5,300,000, Local contractors, a great number of whom are down in that area who will be very unhappy to hear the hon. gentleman say that ERCO has contributed nothing to the economy of this Province, Local contractors, 7 1 •j h

Dece~ber 4, 1980 Tape No. 2666 GP.-4 rom • NEARY : Sll, 02S, 000 t ~upplies, supplies, Mr. Speake=, a great deal of pu=chases made in that district made in that district and en the Avalon Peninsula and in various parts of Ne\vi'oundland ­ $15,441,000 , ~ot bad for a company that has contribul:ed nothing to the economy of this Province . Nining, down in the quartz mine the hon. gentleman referred to, $2,982,000. Local capital , experts and so forth , expertise, consultants and the like since the start-up of production at ERCO , $17, 9 21, 000 . Not bad tor a company that ha s contributed nothing to t!"!e economy of this Pr':>vince . 71 •J 7

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2667 AH-1 MR.NEARY: Lo9al supplies, experts before start up of production, before she actually started at all. The hon. gentleman refers to a political gimmick, before she started up, not bad for a political gimmick. I wish this crowd had the same record, the same track record, the same success , "'·~fore start-up $13,88C',OOO pre-election goodie for the people of this Province, $13,880,J00 Wages and salaries, ~r. Speaker, and the majority of the employees of that company come from my hon. friends district. MR. PATTERSON: ovrong again. MR.

NEARY: Oh,the majority of them come from the Placentia area and Trinity Bay and Conception Bay. But listen to this, Mr. Speaker, listen to this figure- not bad for a company that has contributed zero, zilch to the economy of this Province '- $4 7 million since they started up. The total infusion of money into the Newfoundland economy as a result of this company corning to this Province was $137,772,000- and - I am not talking about the multiplier effect. Mr.

Speaker, all the benefits to the shops down in my hon. friends district, the hotels, the motels, the clubs, the taverns, the beauty parlors, the taxis, teachers, electricians, carpenters, farmers, lawyers and the like - Not bad, Hr. Speaker, for a company ·who has contributed nothing to the economy of this Province. Provincial income tax alone is . $47 million. I do not know what our share of the federal taxes are. Put it all together and you are talking about a substantial amount of money, Mr.Speaker.

You are talking about almost $200 million of new capital, new money injected into the economy of this Province since that industry started. Now what are we arguing about here today? We are talking about the 2.5 mil rate that 7 11 R

December 4,1980 Tape No. 2667 AH-2 MR. NEARY: was given this company for their electricity and that 2.5 mil rate, Mr. Speaker, rightly pointed out by my hon. colleague,was the cost of electricity generated at Bay d'Espoir at that time. But what happened.since then? >vhat happened since then, Mr. Speaker? 'i'le had the thermo generating plant up at Holyrood 1 and who could forecast at that time that the cost of crude, the cost of oil to operate that theme generating plant was ;JOing to take off t.'l.e way ·that it did which at that time was $1.65 per barrel.

And sc when you mix the two together, when you mix them together then you get a pretty hefty subsidy coming out of the pUblic treasury. But, Mr. Speaker, the former Premier, rilr. Smallwood, the former Premier of this Province. has had to take the rap for all of this.

But I am going to tell the House something now that they are not aware of: When the ad was placed in the European papers to try and attract in 'A11stry to this Province , when that ad was placed it was.only put there after much consultation with the officials of the Newfoundland Power Cornmission,who used to meet down in Joev' s house on Roach's Line every Sunday morninq- ~1R. STAGG: That is not so. MR. NEARY: that is so!-to go over the energy situation in this Province. And it was on their advicP-, they told him, Mr.

Smallwood, they told him that he would be/ safe justified in advertising power throughout the world for 2.5 mils to try and attract industry in this Province. There were a lot of other things that h~ was not told. Mr. Smallwood, although he was a very knowledgeable man and we were surprised that his little head could hold so much,but what could he have forecast that we would need a ~hemo generating plant at Holyrood at that time. Did they tell him that? No, they did not. The cost of electricity to ERCO was based on the cost of generating that electricity at 71 'i Q

December 4, 1980 Tape 2668 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Bay d'Espoir and that alone, and not on the thermo generating plant, and that is where the hon. gentlemen are confusing the issue. Now, Mr. Speaker, as a result of that, Mr. Smallwood's name ha? been dragged down in the gutter and dragged through the mud of this Province by hon. gentlemen, especially the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) who will stand up when I sit down and squirt more poison and more venom across the Eouse because of his hatred for Joey Smallwood.

He will not get up and tell us about the great Janeway Hospital that Joey built in this Province, he will not tell us about the great university that Joey built in this Province, he will not tell us about all the vocational schools and the College of Trades that Joey build in this Province, he will not tell us about all the hospitals Joey built, he will not tell us about all the fish plants that Joey built, he will not tell us about the Trans­ Canada Highway that Joey built; he will not tell us about all the other things that Joey built, but he will get up and he will squirt his poison - Your Honour wants to - MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Give the hon. member a chance to think of the other things. now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. 5PEAKER: I do apologize to the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), but pursuant to Standing Order 3l(

h) and it being 5:00P.M., I have to inform the House that I have received notice of three matters for debate at 5:30 P.M. when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. Notice is given by the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) , subject matter of which is the School Tax Act 71?n

December 4, 1980 Tape 2668 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): as it applies to Labrador. Notice is given by the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), subject matter of which is the Ku Klux Klan. Notice is given by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), the subject matter of which is welfare assistance. MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, I have been told that they are conducting a cantest throughout the world to see if there is one person on the face of this earth, one person in the world that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) does not hate, and if they do find one - SOME HON. ME~~ERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: - they are going to put it into the Guinness Book of World Records. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: It wi~l be a first for the hon. gentleman. He will get up now and he will have to lash out at the former Liberal administration and Joey Smallwood. Well, I only wish, Mr.

Speaker, that this hon. crowd had as good a record as Joey Smallwood has in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: One project only, one only, the Janeway Hospital, as my hon. friend knows and an~ doctors in this House know, has saved thousands and thousands of lives of children in this Province. SO~~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: But do they zero in on that and say God bless him? No! Here is what the Premier of the 7 1 2 1 ,.

December 4, 1980 Tape 2668 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: Province does: I heard him one day on an Open Line programme. A woman called in and she said, 'Mr. Peckfo~d, what do you think of Joey Smallwood?' He said, 'I think he is a pretty good man.' 'But for Joey Smallwood,' the Premier said, 'I would not be where I am today. Only for Joey Smallwood putting the university over there,' he said, 'I would not be where I am today, and I have to thank Joey Smallwood for it.' And the woman said, 'Well, that is great, boy, I am certainly glad to hear you say that. You are a pretty broad-minded fellow and I admire you for that.

And the people of Newfoundland admire you for giving Joey a little bit of credit for doing the odd little good thing in Newfoundland.' And so, the conversation ended. But two weeks later, Mr. Speaker, this very same Premier 1 who is so honest and wants to portray the image of being so intellectually honest and a man of integrity, two weeks later he was on with Michael Harris. And when Michael Harris asked him about Mr.

Smallwood, do you know what he said?- only two weeks later. 'The only good thing,' he said, 'that Joey Smallwood did for Newfoundland was to bring Newfoundland into Confederation, and in 1950 he died.' Not bad, Mr. Speaker~ Within two weeks the only good thing he did - AN HON. MEMBER: You must have heard wrong. MR. NEARY: No, I heard right. I did not hear wrong, I heard right. And we are going to hear it all again in this debate, make no mistake about that, Mr. Speaker. They think they are going to shove it down our throats and shove it up various other parts of our anatomy. I have news for them.

The people of this Province are sick and tired and fed up with this crowd dwelling on the past. And they are asking now, even their staunchest supporters are asking, 'Where is your record? 7122

December 4, 1980 MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape 2668 What have you done?' Hear, hear! EC - 4 1-:!R. NEARY: They are saying any government worth its salt 1 whether it is Liberal or Tory, would have 7 1 2 1 :

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2669 GH-1 MR. NEARY: negotiated the ERCO contract, and I might say, Mr. Speaker, that contract could not have been renegotiated only ERCO voluntarily agreed to renegotiate it. Not only that,but in the process of the negotiations they would not have anything to do with the Premier, The representatives of Albright, Wilson went back to England and said, "Never again are we going to sit down around the table with that arrogant So-and-So that you have leading that Province", and they went home and they had to come back and renegotiate with Vic Young. And that is the truth of it, Mr.

Speaker, they would not sit down again with the Premier of this Province, no more than Ottawa will sit down with him or any of the ·other provinces would sit down with him because of his arrogant, confrontational attitude and it is Vic Young that should get the credit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M..."R.. NEARY: Vic Young is the man, if there is any credit - and I do not give him much credit because any government, it does not make any difference which one it was. would have done the same thing, But if there is- any credit it should go to Vic Young, and my hon. friend knows that. My hon. friend was told.

My hon. friend, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) was told in no uncertain terms, "We will back and we will -". Mr. Speaker, the irony of it is that the - what was it eight mils they agreed on? The eight mils they agreed on was what ERCO originally suggested to the Newfoundland Government. They voluntarily agreed, they voluntarily agreed to pay eight mils. The only difference in the terms and conditions of the contract was that it escalates faster. That is the only difference, and it could not have been 71 2 &

December 4, 1980 Tape No. 2669 GH-2 MR. NEARY: renegotiated but for the co-operation of ERCO. That is a fact. I am still not satisfied myself with the impact of the ERCO plant on the ,environment but that is another matter. We are not talking about that now. If we were, I would have a few choice words to say about it. But I do want to say this, Mr. Speaker, and I want to try to rivet this home, that the people of this Province are not buying the arguments put up by this government at the present time.

They are starting to ask questions; they are starting to demand action; they say, "Let us have less talk and more action. Let us see your record", they are saying. "What have you done since 1972 in this Province?" SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The only thing they can point to is the renegotiation of the ERCO contract which could not have been renegotiated if the Liberals had not put the industry there in the first place. SOME HON. r<!BMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker, I hope in this debate we will hear none of this childishness that we have been listening to.

The people of this Province 1•rho are finding it very difficult to cope with the high cost of living, the high cost of electricity, high rents, the effect of inflation and the cost of living, they are unable to cope with it. Young people cannot buy home~. MR. THOMS: No plow in Lamaline. MR. NEARY: They cannot clear the roads. Vandalism and crime areon the increase. Small businesses are on the brink of bankruptcy and all we can hear from this crowd is, "Ah, you gave everything away! You gave everything away!" 712S : -

December 4, 1980 Tape :-lo . 2669 GF! -3 MR . ~A_~Y : ~1r. Speaker, "''hat would t.'1ey do if they did not have a couple of things to hang their hat on ? Nhat would they do if they could not make a whipping boy out of the Opper Churchill, if they could not make a whipping boy out of ERCO -and that one is going to be out of the way now, so there is only going to be one left, the Upper Churchill . Now , what are they going to do the n \•/hen the people start saying , "'nell , hold on nO\v , hold on now .

We have heard enough belly-aching about Joey Smallwood and we have heard enough belly -a ching about the former Liberal governmen~ in this Province? tvo'lt about you? Khere is your record?'' They are going to say, ":-tr . Premier, produce your record. If you want to have an election, produce your record ." .~nd we have heard threats o.= election in the last couple of weeks in this Provinc:P . A.'J BON . ME.t>1BER: Ne will \·lin anot .her . :-iH . 1\TEARY : Ne have heard threats . Th<:> hon. gentleman thinks he is home fre~ because he has made a big issue out of the constitution, he has made 712~ -

December 4, 1980 Tape 2670 MB - 1 MR. NEARY: a lot of fuss abcut the offshore ownership and the hon. gentelman thinks he is riding high. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Well, let me start up in the upper end. Let me start in the upper end 3nd see how high he is riding over all this. The member for St. George's (Mr. Dawe),down the tube in the next election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Be wiped out and any of his foolish, silly, green papers will not save his political scalp in St. George's. The member for Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout), sone. SOME HON. ME~1BERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR.

NEARY: be annihilated. MR. SPEA!<ER: his remarks to the bill. Sa-lE RON. ~1EMBEFS: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. Order, please! The member for Stephenville will Order, please! Order, p~e~se! r believe the hon. member should be relating Oh, oh! As a result, as a result of the c_hildishness and the silly nonsense that we have heard from this crowd the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stags) will be annihilated. The member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) will be wiped out, one term only in this House. The member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: • - who deceived his constitu~ents I over the superport,gone~ The member for Port de Grave (Mr. Collins), do>-m the drain, AN HON. ~1EMBER: Fortune - Hermitage MR. NEARY: I have Fortune - Hermitage. The member for Gander; 1-1ell, I do not think the lady will run again but if she does down the tube, 71 2 7 ._

December 4, 1980 Tape 2670 MB - 2 MR. NEARY: Humber West ·(~-ir. Baird) is it? Fonze Faour is looking at Humber West with a jaundiced eye_, gone:They will be the spoiler in that district. Pla~entia (Mr . Patterson)._where my hon. friend gets up and tells us there are no Liberals left down there, '-Tell, I go down there once in a while , I have very good reason to visit that area once in a while; the hon. gentleman 1gone~ Wiped out. Mount Pearl, (Hr. 1'1/indsor), qone. MR. L. THO:u!S : Baie Verte ~ Ttlhi te Bay. MR. NEARY: Pardon? I have Baie Verte - \•Thi te Bay.

One thing they do not like in Baie Verte - White Bay is a turncoat, Mr. Speaker. AN RON. MEMBER: Do not forget Naskaupi. MR. NEARY: Ah, Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) I cannot see Ill'J hon. friend there,that is why he does not come to mind. Naskaupi, they may as well forget it,Do not send anybody in there,it is gone ! Now, I ask my hon. friend wants to have an election and he has been toying with the idea and throwing it out· let us have it; I would say let us have it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR~ NEARY: Anytime the hon. gentleman - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please!

I would ask the hon. member for LaPoile to confine his remarks to the bill and I think he is being irrelevant at this time. MR. NEARY: You notice, Your Honour, I - SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEA.T<ER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: -skipped ov.er Conception Bay South Your Honour,and I did that out of my respect for the Chair and so I am not going to pursue the matter any further, Mr. Speaker, except I want to say this: If the hon. gentleman thinks he is riding so high 1 I would say let him put his re- cord before the people of this Province. 71 2 8

December 4, 1980 Tape 2670 MB - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Let him do it. There is no need of an election. The han. gentleman has only been there eighteen months, eighteen months. He has been a minister in the government for the last seven years. The han. gentleman has been a senior minister in the Tory government for seven years, he has been Premier for eighteen months, he was Executive Assistant to Mr .• Moores for a year and a half or so~ I am not advocating an election. There is no need to have an election, no need of it, but I will guarantee. you, Mr. Speaker, there is nobody on this side afraid of an election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Wha