Manitoba Hansard — 6 April 1970 (Sitting 26, 29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-26

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Z;30 o'clock, Monday, April 6, 1970. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 589 At this point, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have with us 64 students of Grade 5 standing, of the Linwood School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Holland and Miss Adair.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Attorney-General and Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here today. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debates. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Osborne. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GffiARD (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to have the matter stand. (Agreed). MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St. Matthews. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.

C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this debate to allow the Honourable Member from Birtle-Russell to speak on the matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, being a rural member who sat on the Committee on the Landlord-Tenant Act, I had expressed my concern about the way that the amendments to the Act, or the consideration of amendments to the Act, did not deal with the affairs that are in the present Act that pertain to agriculture.

However, I know that this will go to committee and other agricultural members will then be allowed to have their say on it, so I will say no more about it at this time and allow - I think this thing should go to committee as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the House Leader of the Liberal Party, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. ED SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere) introduced Bill No. 35, The Manitoba Centennial Day Act. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona) introduced Bill No. 34,

an Act to amend The Electrician's Act. HON. SAM USKIW (Minister of AgricultureXLac duBoimet)introduced Bill No.16, The Bee Act. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable the First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Before Orders of the Day, I should like to lay on the table of the House the Return to an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on the motion of the Honour able Member for Ste. Rose. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture.

My question to the Minister: does the Minister believe in force in the agricul tural community even if it involves the use of pitchforks? MR. USKIW: I don't think that the Minister believes in forcing anything, Mr. Chairman, other than the silence of my opposition. MR. WATT: . . . the Minister for the compliment.

590 April 6, 1970. STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I! ON. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I rise at this to announce to the House that the Manitoba Government has participated in pro claiming this week, April 5th to llth, as National Wildlife Week. The Canadian Wildlife Federation and its provincial affiliates are devoting their efforts to emphasize the number of endangered wildlife in Canada, the theme for National Wildlife Week.

The Department of Mines and Natural Resources, in cooperation with the Manitoba Wildlife Federation, has sponsored a provincial-wide poster and schoolroom lesson campaign, stressing the dangers of environmental pollution and need to protect our wildlife resources. We consider the Manitoba Wildlife Federation and its conservation-minded member associations throughout the province deserving of our support in their efforts for the benefit of wildlife. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Portage La Prairie): I thank the speaker for the state ment but the statement regarding the government's intentions on wildlife prompts me to remind the Minister of a question I asked about two weeks with respect to the cutting arrangements with Churchill Forest Industries up north. 1 have since had a letter from a constituent who has just returned from a fishing trip and he's alarmed at the way the logging operations are taking right to the roadways and right to the lakesides in great beauty spots, and could he advise the House if anything has been done about this or is the government powerless to act?

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, 1 thank the honourable Member for reminding me of his question. 1 do have an answer for it now sitting on my desk and I'll try to remember to bring it into the House tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With the announcement of the Minister re garding the Wildlife Week, I think it's only fair that I should express some concern for the constitutents in my constituency who have been asking for some form of compensation to crops for damage caused by wildlife, and I notice that the Minister has not mentioned anything about that and I sincerely hope he will mention it before very long. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GffiARD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture.

I wonder if he's in a position now to tcll us the proportion of feed grains which are purchased by the mills in Manitoba compared to the total production of Manitoba. MR. USKIW: For what period of time, Mr. Speaker. MR. GffiARD: One year. MR. USKIW: For one year? I think I have figures going back to 1960. If my honour able friend would like to have the figures that 1 have, I would be glad to furnish him with those. MR. GmARD: I would like to have them if I could pick them up from you. --(Inter jection) -- I will be going to get them from you, then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. AL.

MACKLING (Attorney-General) (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the other day we undertook, on a motion by the Honourable Member from Ricl, to file particulars in respect to the registrations under TheCompanies Act, and I now have that Return with sufficient copies, 1 think for the party leaders. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON: (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, 1 was wondering if the First Minister would give us an explanation of the man that's picketing out in front of the building. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot give any full explanation.! believe it has some thing to do with a view which the gentleman has, relating to Hydro and the export of hydro power, but beyond that I'm afriad that I cannot enlighten my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation. I wonder if he's in a position now to tell us exactly which date, or as close as possible which date the bridge on 201 will be completed. I understand that they are unable now to cross on the ice and it is posing quite a problem.

April 6, 1970. 591 HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation)(Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I can't add anything more to what I said the other day. I understand that the ice is unsafe and the de tour is about 10 miles, as I indicated it would be, when the bypass is closed. It may be a month, it may be more; it all depends on Hamilton Steel Works when they send out the two beams that are holding it up. I can•t add any more. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour.

During the Labour estimates he indicated that he would answer some questions. One in particular was with regard to the breakdown of union membership under either American parent or Canadian unions. Could he indicate whether the information will be tabled or whether he will advise us of the results? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to my honourable friend. I did not keep in my mind the question that he asked of me. I'd be pleased to receive from him a memo or an Order for Return and then would table the information for my honourable friend. And also, if I may, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend the Member for Riel I believe asked me a question the other day insofar as the proportion of those on minimum wage may be part-time and full-time. I've investigated into the matter with my department- or the Department of Labour; it's not my department, it's a department of government- I'm sorry I cannot obtain the precise information as reauested by my friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Mi.nister of Finance.

I wonder if he could inform the House if he has any further idea when the budget might be brought down. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): No, Mr .. Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is it correct that the budget will not be brought down before the 13th of April? MR. CHERNIACK: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

Is he contemplating any action with respect to the news stories over the weekend that would seem to indicate that the advance of the minimum wage would be passed on most directly to the consumers, particularly in the areas such as the cup of coffee and the sandwich or piece of pie in the service industries. These stories were prominently carried over the weekend in newspapers. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I can only advise that I read the newspapers too and I'm well aware of the suggested advance of prices, but there seems to be some conflict on that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Has he had any word or communication from the Federal Govern ment indicating that any compromise might be in the offing as far as the quota proposal is concerned? MR. USKIW: No, not since the trip to Ottawa last Tuesday, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY - MOTION FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Morris. l'vffi. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the honourable member, I would ask the indulgence of the House in having this matter stand. (Agreed). MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: l. The total labour force in Manitoba at the end of each fiscal year since 1961. 2. The total employment in Manitoba at the end of each fiscal year since 1961. 3. The number of births in Manitoba in each fiscal year since 1961. 4. The number of deaths in Manitoba in each fiscal year since 1961. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I indicate, on behalf of the government, that we've no objections to receiving this Order for Return but I'm under the impression that the data is on the calendar year rather than the fiscal year and if this would be acceptable to my

592 April 6, 1970. (MR. PAULLEY Cont'd) . . . honourable friend, if that being the case, we have no object ions. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, if I may without entering debate, I have no objection to the calendar year if that•s more easily available. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, it is my intention to speak to this motion so would you stand that till Private Member's day? MR. SPEADR:Stand tnl.tomorrow?(Agreed.) The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOL GAT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following inform ation at the latest date available: l. The total amount of money allocated by and received from the Federal Government for 14anitoba•s Centennial celebrations. 2. The total amount of money allocated and paid out by the Manitoba Government for the same Plll'POSe as 1 above. 3. Breakdown showing the distribution of this money for various projects. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, certainly we can accept this Order also, except I should like to point out to the honourable member that if he is assuming that monies have been received recently from the Federal Government relating to our Manitoba 1970 Centennial, there has been no such receipt to date. It's expected imminently but it hasn't been received, so that when we do file the Order, if the figures seem as though they do not include the $5 million, my honour able friend will understand. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR.

SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing, with respect to the Economic Development Advisory Review Board, the following information: l. When was the Economic Development Advisory Review Board formed? 2. Who compromises the membership of the Economic Development Advisory Review Board? 3. What is the date of each appointment to the Economic Development Advisory Review Board? 4. What are the amounts of salaries, expenses and other remuneration paid to individual Economic Development Advisory Review Board members to date? 5.

When has the Economic JlevelopmentAdvisory Review Board met and who was in attend- ance? 6. A copy of the Economic Development Advisory Review Board's operating procedure. 7. Has the Economic Development Advisory Review Board reviewed individual loans in cases where the borrower claims unfair treatment? 8. A copy of all questions referred to the Economic Development Advisory Review Board by the Minister of Industry and Commerce. 9.

Has the Economic Development Advisory Review Board met and evaluated the manner in which the objectives contained in the Report of the Commission on Targets for Economic Development are being met by private and public sectors? 10. A list of problems referred to the Economic Development Advisory Review Board by the Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. SPEAKER: There's a slight discrepancy between the motion as I heard it read and what appears in my hands. I'm sure that the honourable member meant to read "who comprises the membership of the Board" not who "compromises" it. MR.

SPIVAK: Comprises - that was a sheer accident. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONRAD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, to the extent that we can obtain the information requested, I will endeavour to provide the information asked for in this Order for Return. MR. SPIVAK: ... pose a question to the Minister. This is a rather unusual caveat in the accepting of it to the extent that the information is available. This is either within the

April 6, 1970. 593 (MR. SPIVAK Cont'd) .... knowledge of the government or not, and if there's anything --(Interjection) -- MR. EVANS: Well, let me clarify. For example, item No. 6, a copy of the Economic Development Advisory Board's operating procedure. While l'm sure the Board has some mode of operation, I'm not sure whether they have documented a method of procedure so I'm not sure whether there's such a copy available, so this is what I mean.

What's available, we will endeavour to provide you with the information that you've requested but in some cases, such as this one, there may not be an operating procedure; I'm not sure, but there may not be, and therefore it would be not applicable. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, just in connection with the explanation. If in fact there's no copy of the procedure, then if their procedure is explained that would be certainly satis factory to me. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. GOVERNMENT BILLS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Would you call Bill No. 18, please. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, Bill No. 18. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, I beg the indulgence of the House in permitting this matter to stand. (Agreed.) MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: We're dealing with the Department of Health and Social Services. Resolution 54. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I can address a question at this time in the estimates to the Honourable Minister of Health and Welfare. I wonder if he can inform the House whether a change in connection with Community Development <Xfices has now taken place and the Community Development Offices have now been taken out of his department and placed in another department? HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Services) (Springfield): Mr. Chairman, it's not that I don't want to answer to the Honourable Member from River Heights, but I'm hoping that others will speak and I could answer at the same time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Before we leave the Minister's salary, I would like to appeal to the Minister to reconsider the situation with regard to people who are in nursing homes and who require, in a sense, a type of hospitalization and yet who are not eligible for coverage under the Hospital Plan, to appeal to the Minister to make a change in this area. Now this is something that we've discussed in this House previously, but I want to re-emphasize, Mr.

Chairman, the very serious situation in which many people find themselves in this province, people who have been paying their medicare premiums over the years, or their hospital premiums, and who now find themselves in need of nursing home care but who cannot get coverage for this care. Now I have one instance in particular, and I'll relate it to the House without relating the name of the individual or his background, because I think it is an example of the type of thing that occurs. It's the case of a gentleman who is now age 82- his wife is age 77. This man was employed by a government agency for some 30 years.

He retired in 1951. He's getting a pension now of $130. 33 a month. The comt illed Old Age Pensions for he and his wife come to about $80.00 a month, so $160.00 giving the two of them a net income of $290.33. During the years of his employ with the government, this gentleman had managed to get a home built

594 April 6, 1970. (MR. MOLGAT Cont'd) • • • for himself here in Winnipeg and he had clear title to it. Some four years ago, he moved out of that House, was able to sell it. He realized something in the order of $10, 000. A year ago his wife became ill - hardening of the arteries, and loss of memory, requiring 24-hours-a-day care. There we have this gentleman and his wife living in a suite. She must have 24-hours-a-day care. The man is over 80 years of age. He attempted to keep his wife for a period of time; eventually could not do so; got some assistance by getting help into the house.

But this even wasn't sufficient. Eventually he had to place his wife in a nursing home. His costs there are running $12.00 a day, plus extra services, plus drugs, so his net cost per month is something in the order of $375. 00 to $400. 00 a month. This is more than this man is now getting from his combined government pension and combined Ud Age Pensions for he and his wife. Yet he has no alternative. It's not as if he doesn't want to take care of his wife, but he can't- there's no way in which the man can do so. So the amount of money which he had saved through the years is being eroded very very quickly.

In a very short space of time this man is going to be a pauper, and as yet there's nothing that he can do to correct the situation. Now, why can we not change the Hospital Services Plan so that these people can be covered under the hospital services? And this, Mr. Chairman, applies to many many fami lies in the province of Manitoba. Dozens of cases.

The other alternative happens at times, that they can get into a hospital either because a doctor is prepared to keep them there, vouch for them, in certain other cases they can get into the municipal hospitals here in Winnipeg, where I understand it is covered, but there are many other cases, just as deserving, who cannot get that coverage. So I would appeal to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, to review this whole situation. I know what one answer is going to be: it's going to cost money. But Mr.

Chairman, there's another side of the story, that right now I'm sure that there are many acute beds in hospitals that are occupied by people who could be in nursing homes - acute beds costing us from $25. 00 to $50. 00 a day, and more possibly - occupied by people who could be placed in alternate care homes if they were available and if the hospital premium covered them, for much less cost, in the final analysis, to the Hospital Plan and therefore to the taxpapers. So it's not simply a case of the Minister saying it's going to cost us more money. I see him shaking his head.

Maybe I was anticipating his reply - I was thinking of the replies I used to get from my honour able friends who presently sit on my right, that this was going to be costly. It's a two-way street; I think there can be economies in it as well. And I'd like the Minister to review this whole situation of alternate care homes, of nursing homes, means of getting people out of acute beds into other areas where they could be serviced at lower cost and providing people in this province, who are deservbig of this assistance, with a type of care that they need. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR.

LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, I rise to support the request of the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose . I might say that this is not something new, this is something that I personally in the former years have been asking for a number of years- for many previous meetings. Now I would want to give some information because I think the Minister should look into this immediately, and I would like to give the Minister some information. Maybe he could pursue this; maybe he'll find out that we might have started some thing on this.

Now in 1968, the Session of 1868, in the dying days - I think it was the last day of the Session - there was a motion that I moved, something that I had been talking about for a number of years, and I think if I read the motion at this time, Mr. Chairman, it might explain what I have in mind. Now the motion was: "WHEREAS a universal hospitalization plan has now been in effect for 10 years; and

WHEREAS the hospitalization of the mentally ill and tuberculosis patient has not been covered by the plan; and

WHEREAS federal grants cover only those patients hospitalized as active or acute cases, thus encouraging many patients to remain in hospital occupying active care beds longer than necessary; and

WHEREAS a new and more realistic cost-sharing plan that might include acute care hospitals, extended treatment care hospitals, nursing homes, home care could be introduced, reducing the total cost and improving the care to patients and

WHEREAS it is felt that improvement can be made in regard to the federal Medicare Plan; and

April 6, 1970. 596 (MR. DESJARDINS Cont•d) .

WHEREAS the new Prime Minister of our country has been elected, now might b~ the best time to review all medical and hospital conditions in our country; THEREFORE BE· IT RESOLVED that the government of Manitoba request the Prime Minister to call a federal-provincial meeting to discuss these problems, and a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the First Ministers of all provinces of Canada." And then there w-...s an amendment moved by the then Minister of Health that the reeo lution be amended by deleting the sixth paragraph in its entirety and I think that it was felt - 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 - something about a new Prime Minister was elected, so therefore that came out, but the principle stayed the same, and it was passed and it was passed unanimously by the members of this House, Mr.

Chairman. I believe that this is certainly along the lines as suggested by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose and I think that this is something that we should look into immediately.

I would like - I think that I can request this at this time from the Minister; instead of having to prepare an Order for Return, I think that the Minister should look into this to see what happened after this resolution, to see if the then government followed through, if there was in fact a request from the Federal Government to meet with them to discuss such an idea, and if a copy of this resolution was sent to the other provinces, because I don't think that there's one province in Canada that would not be in favour of such a conference.

As the previous spokesman has said, now the plan covers for people that are occupying acute beds. Now the per diem rate of these beds might be anywhere to around $50. 00, and then you might have another hospital where these patients could go, and should be, and they in turn might cost from $10.00, $12.00 a day, and they would receive the necessary care. Now it's a vicious circle. There's not enough beds, and what do we do?

It seems to me that it's ridiculous but this is what's being done, and I imagine that it's still being done at this time, that we are always trying to build more acute beds, and I think this is wrong. I think that we have to start at the bottom of the ladder. I think that first of all we should be able to provide the home care, --(Interjection) --what's that? If I steal it, you must have stolen it from me because I've been tangled up in this for ten years. But I think, Mr.

Chairman, that, as I said, we could start with Home Care; you'd get people out of hospitals; it would be less costly, and some people would like that much better. And then you would have nursing homes, different. stages of nursing homes. It certainly would be less costly, less costly to build, less costly to maintain, and it would work much better. Now, the member from Ste. Rose said of course if we did this immediately, without the Federal Government, it would be costly, and I think that it would be impossible right now.

I think it would be impossible to have such a program without the help of the Federal Govern ment. But they've accepted this hospitalization scheme ten years ago, and Mr. Speaker, I think that ten years, after ten years it's not asking too much to ask the Federal Government to sit with the provinces, the Ministers of Health of the different provinces, and then to discuss this all over again. So I think that we should look at this- it's probably one of the most important and pressing problems that we face in this department at this time, and I certainly would hope that the Minister will follow through on this.

On the same page there was a motion that did pass, but I think rather than explain what I was driving at at the time- and again my opinion hasn't changed- and that was another resolution: "WHEREAS the administration of some hospitals is under the jurisdiction of the DepaTt ment of Health while the administration of other hospitals, as well as nursing homes, comes under the jurisdiction of the Department of Welfare, and that the state of affairs is highly unsatisfactory; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government of Manitoba consider the advisa bility of placing the administration of all hospitals and nursing homes under the jurisdiction of the Manitoba Hospital Commission. " Of course this was defeated and then the former government proceeeded immediately installing the minister, the one minister over the two departments. Now this in effect has been corrected because the Minister is now in charge, it's the same department, the adminis tration of all hospitals. That at the time created a problem.

But I think that this - and certainly don't want to belabour this next point too much, but I would add my voice also to that of the Honourable Member from Birtle- Russell, who feels that this department is too large.

596 April 6, 1970. (MR. DESJARDINS Cont•

d) Now this is certainly no reflection on the new Minister. I stated this when an experienced minister was at the head of the department, Dr. Johnson, the former member from Gimli.

As I say, it's no reflection on the personality at that time or now, although, as I said, I wanted, I'm not - I said a whlle ago that the administration of hospitals should come under the same Minister and I certainly still feel the same, but I think that this is too large a department if we•re going to get the proper care unless we reorganize the whole form of government here in Manitoba; unless you have four or five large departments only, and that is something that I mentioned and I think it was the Honourable Member for River Heights last year thought he'd embarrassed me with this and said, "Well, aren't you the one that mentioned that there would be two levels of Ministers?" and I said "Yes," and I still think that we should look- we can look at this.

I think that you could have larger departments, if this is the system that we're going to adopt, and have five or six senior Ministers and then we could have a Minister that could work in the same department, a minister without portfolio, or junior ministers, and I think that they could take the load off, but we've got to choose.

If we're going to go into more departments well then this Department of Health and Welfare, as far as I'm concerned, is too big; there's too many things that call for the attention of the Minister and therefore some of the things are bound to be neglected or they become secondary and they certainly won't get the attention deserved - unless, as I say, you change the form of government. I want to say again that the remarks of the Member from Ste. Rose are very important, and very costly.

We could bankrupt the province with this department and the Department of Education- there's an awful lot of money spent, and we should always be looking for ways to save money and improve the services in all departments but probably more so in these two departments. Now it's okay that some people say, "Well, all right, what's the difference? Let's build acute beds; let's build hospitals with acute beds. After all, the Federal Government is spend ing the money; it's not our money." Well, I do hope that we don't take this approach.

It doesn't matter where the money comes-irom;it•s tax money; it comes from the citizens of Canada, the tupayers of Canada, and I think that we should try to make every dollar go a long way, and it is certainly to the advantage of Canadians,all Ca~ius,..be they Manitobans •o.r from the Province of Ontario or New Brunswick- it doesn't matter. If we sit down and look at all this question of hospitalization, I think that we can insist, the Federal Government can't say "Well, all right, we have other priorities now. You have this hospitalization plan and you just do the best that you can. 11 That's not good enough.

It's time that we had another look at this. For instance, it's time that we had a look to see if we can do any - if the Federal Government could do a little more for mental patients. It's not something that you have to hide or to be ashamed of any more; it's a disease like everything else and there is no reason why that should be singled out by any level of government and say we're not going to do anything on this at all.

I think that we should bring the message loud and clear to the Federal Government and tell them that we're living in the past with this kind of program; let's get together and see if we can improve it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the Minister's salary, and I feel quite strongly that we should not leave the Minister's salary until we have had the reports from the Manitoba Hospital Services Fund, the Manitoba Hospital Commission, and the Insurance Corporation's statement, because we do not know just how the operations have gone.

Was there an operating deficit or did we have a surplus? What is the situation? And I think there is a number of questions involved here that we should have these statements before us before we leave the Minister's salary. Otherwise we might be cut short later on when we want to discuss those particular items contained in the estimates. Then, too, what is the per diem rate at the present time? I know these vary from hospital to hospital but has there been a general increase, and to what extent? And also the number of hospitals operating in the province.

A year ago the report contained that there were 101 hospitals operating in the province; 82 of these were public general hospitals, 15 were federal and 4 private. Then, we also note that there was a list of the renovations and the hospital building program. Have any of them been completed since and are there more or are there less operating today, because I think this no doubt will have a bearing on the amount that we will have to contribute or spend on medical care and hospital care in the province.

April 6, 1970. Q97 (MR. DESJARDINS Cont'd). The 1967 report showed that we had total expenditures of 62. 8 million; the 1968 report showed 72. 8 million expense. This is roughly $10 million increase that particular year. What can we expect for the coming year and what was the situation last year?

Because what we 'haVe contained in the estimates is, I imagine, just the contribution that is being made from the Consolidated Fund towards the support of these two corporations; the Hospital Commission, $21,458,000, which is very similar to that of last year; and as far as the Health Services Insurance Corporation, well we have a large increase but this takes into account the matter of premiums which are no longer being collected from the individual people, or people in the province; it's now moneys which now come from the General Fund.

I personally would like to have more information along these lines as to where we stand with our whole operation before we leave the Minister's salary, so that we may not be cut short later on in our discussions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Unfortunately, I've been away for a couple of days and just not sure of what has been discussed on the ;Minister's salary, and I hope I don't review too much of what has been going on, but I might say the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and I were enjoying unpolluted northern Manitoba and I hope we left it that way after we came away.

I might say to the Minister of Health and Social Development, is it now, that, unless he knows now, I would point out that he has a very important portfolio to look after and I'm sure that he will have realized it by now, if he didn't before he accepted this very important post, because actually health is important to all of us whether we live in the north or south or rural or city, but Mr.

Chairman, the problem of health and the problems of social services are probably one of the things that drives me most towards recommending an independent Depart ment of Northern Affairs to see to it that the problems of the north are looked after. I have nothing new to offer to this House other than what I have said in the past many years and many others have said, but I think it should be said over again and it should continue to be said over again until something is done about it.

I believe that probably the Minister him self will have to accept the factthatheacts in many many cases as an ombudsman for people who are living within the province under the jurisdiction of a Federal Government who is living in Ottawa and who is not hearing the problems that exist, nor is be seeing the problems that exist, because the Honourable Minister from Ottawa has come back on several occasions now and said health is in very good condition in the north and there's no concern, only to get back and find that he has caused such a rumble that he falls back and says, "Well, maybe I was wrong; I have to go back and review the problems in northern Canada." And they exist now under the present Minister as they have existed under many Ministers before, and in the attitudes -- of course historically the provinces have said in their attitudes that this is a problem of the Federal Government, and I agree it is.

I agree it is in many cases. But I also feel, as I have always felt, that it is the responsibility of our Minister to see to it that the Federal Government do look after the problems of all Manitobans irrespective of whether they are Indian people under treaty or people that lie in the direct fiscal responsibility of this government.

I would have liked to address him today more on the problems that lie within the Federal jurisdiction because these are the ones that have not been looked after, nor have the pre decessors of this department ever appeared to do very much towards encouraging the Federal Government to see to it that these problems are looked after, and I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that if the Federal Government ever decided to pick up the fiscal responsibility, that they would find in Social Services and in Health that the estimates were much, much larger than they have appropriated for it and, as far as I'm concerned, they are not prepared at any time to face up to this, because as we go through from one area to another, we find that there are many many people thatdonothavetheOldAgeAssista.ncethat.skmlkibecoming to them; they do not have the social services that are offered to other areas of Canada.

They go f.>r months without an'ybody in to attend to the problems that arise within the community, whether it is large or small, and we only have to look around us in the southern part of the community to find, where you have telephones and you have municipal governments, that even then there are people such as the Member for Ste. Rose brought up, '1\ho have problems and they are not able to meet with them, but these are people that lie directly within a few miles of Winnipeg and of people that are

598 April 6, 1970. (MR. BEARD Cont•d) . . • • working for government. How about people that are living hundreds or ~~andll of miles away from the very source that is necessary for them to communicate with to get access to these funds? Never in history has the Federal Government ever taken it upon themselves to go out to the communities and sit down with them and describe to them the problems that lie, the problems that can be taken care of by programs that are instituted by the Federal Government and in many cases those that are instituted by the Provirrcial Government. And so the problem continues.

How about the Nurses Aid program training? How about the Practical Nurses Aids? Aretheybeinglooked into enough to see to it that these people are properly trained or trained at a rate that will provide this type of service? Has the Minister been able to sit down with his Federal Minister and say, "Are you going to accept your share? Are you going to be pre pared to stand the cost of servicing these people that you are directly responsible for and who are Manitobans?" Because if it has been changed, it's been changed in the last few weeks be cause this has not been the case.

We have found that there is inadequate communication be tween the small communities and the large communities, and in fact the people who hold direct control over Health and Social Development, Social Services, in those areas which lie only a few hundred miles or two hundred miles north of this great metropolis of Winnipeg. I think that in many cases we talk here about out-patients. What are we doing about out-patients in the north? How are we looking after them?

They arrive there and if they have to go to hospital they are looked after properly, but it's those people that could be discharged from the hospital if there was an area for them to stay and have out-patient treatment, and in many many cases there is no place, so consequently they have to stay within the hospital or live in some place or any place which they may be able to find, and they do not have the money available to pay for the accommodation- in the first place, they have to run around to try and beg or find something, and I would hope that the Minister would look carefully to the program, particularly in Thompson, where the Indian- Metis people are trying to do just this by raising funds and do it on their own to operate an out-care patient location under an Indian Friendship Centre operation, where they may look after women that have to come in prior to giving birth to children, where there is a place for them to stay.

Right now there isn't an official place where these people can stay and, as you know, they may have to come for a week or they may have to come for two or three weeks, but no one knows. But the cost of this trip and the cost of the trip out would, in itself, having to send a lady back for awhile before she gave birth, would be much greater than having to look after them while they are in the community where they're directly under the doctor's supervision.

There still is no direct communication for Nurses Aids and Practical Nurses in the communities so that they can be assured that they will have the availability of a doctor's advise on a 24-hour basis. They're living in an isolated area. 1n many cases Manitoba Telephone System are not available to give them that 24-hour service, I am told, and this is debatable, but the message comes through to me that unless you're sick at the right time there is no advice available until the next day. The problems are that in most cases we haven't practised enough preventative medicine.

And what happens to the person that has a toothache? In the community :3ere the dentists have looked after it by having a 24-hour service or near to 24-hour service, I believe. But not out there. If you have a toothache you live with it, and it becomes just one of the other hazards of living in the north; and I have been in places where the local parish priest has a pair of forceps and if rou have a toothache he will gladly take it out if you sit down and grin and bear it.

But I don't think- he's breaking the law, for one thing, and we will be discussing the great hazards of denturists very shortly, making a denture for somebody that has no teeth in his mouth. And here we have cases where people have bad abscesses, they have problems with their teeth; nobody has come in to look after them and when it becomes unbearable somebody has to take the job in hand and pull it out for them. There's no medical care available, proper medical care, and it goes on. The dentist goes into the community. He has time to look after the children; no time for the adults.

He's in for a day or two days and he leaves. The health doctor does the same thing. I was in one locality where the X-ray unit was snowed in for two or three days. We got out after three days. They went to the next one; they arrived therelateatnight, in the eveftlftg, had their supper and took their time in having their supper and then they decided they'd x-ray the community itself. They didn't bother going around telling everybody. They said, "Oh don't worry, ·everybody will know." I think they left with X-raying approximately

April 6, 1970. 599 (MR. BEARD Cont'd) .... 45 percent. They were more concerned about whether they .could go on to Churchill and do Churchill within a day or so, do Shamattawa and get back to Winnipeg for the weekend. And here they'd sat for three days doing nothing in a community but they were going to make darn sure that they had this Slinday off because this was actually their day off and they should have onedayoff a week. They forgot that they'd had two to three days off in a community just a few miles away. And this happens.

This happens over and over again, and it is because probably the proper people are not being chosen to do these jobs. They have to be dedicated people and they have to be prepared to do the job properly or not go in and do it. I would suggest that in communications they should have available to nurses' aides and nurses, practical nurses and nurses themselves, communication with a doctor on a 24-hour basis assured communication, not the type that is set up now.

They have got to have centres available, and I know the Minister has gone overboard thiA year, as far as the Churchill area is concerned, and he has I suppose, along with the Federal Government, developed a program which could in fact perhaps do away with many of the problems that I have brought up today but there would have to be some assurance that they would get cooperation from centres such as Thompson, where they have many doctors, doctors available to give assistance and to give direction on a 24-hour basis, because we have no assurance in any community that you're going to be sick between nine and five in the afternoon.

I think that the Minister must, through his department, get much closer to the communi ties that lie in the north. I know and he knows that with the change in Gillam, for example, where people are trying to get away from this once-a-week basis or once-a-month-basis dental care, and they're trying to get a program set up so that they can look after themselves and help pay to look after themselves, and yet it seems that the old argument comes up that "we do not have a program to look after this; we do not have monies to look after this different type of approach.

We will spend the money the way we want to spend it and we will give the program, if you carry on with what we're ready to give you, but if you want to expand and use this money on a better basis, then we can't go along with you." And this is stifling people's imagination and drive at the local community level, because they want to improve; they want to look to a dentist; they•ve got the assurance of people coming in from Thompson, but they have also got to have the assurance that the same program will carry on that was so inadequate in the past, but this one would certainly help to a much greater degree.

I find that in my correspondence with Indian Affairs that they have agreed to send out more forms so that we may find an assistance for old age pensioners to obtain their pension.

But can you imagine somebody that has never seen government, has never been able to read, that does not know the law of the land, and has in fact lived here his 60-odd years in isolation, in the same isolation that our forefathers made sure they were given, and yet these people now are striving to try and find ways and means of obtaining their old age pension, and we set up roadblocks saying, "Well, you've got no assurance that you were born in such and such a period. The local church burned down. We have no record of how old you were when you were given a treaty number. All these things are lost.

" And yet they have people within the community itself who would be prepared to stand up and swear that these people, this person, went to school with him or grew up with him- they probably didn't have schools then- but grew up with him. And these people would a.wear that they were the same age, and people that are swearing of course have the old age pension, and here is one that hasn't. But there is a peculiar apathy, we call it in the north, but I suppose it is a cooperation in the north where people chip in and help each other, sometimes voluntarily and sometimes through necessity.

We don't find them flocking to Winnipeg and saying, "This person is 70 years of age; we demand that you put him in an Old Age Pension home." They look after them, but they are asking for the money to look after them. They are asking for assistance. They are asking for some type of assistance where old people can live within the community, be cause these people do not want to go out to The Pas to live, they don't want to go to Winnipeg to live. My goodness, they have nothing in common with the larger areas.

They want to stay within the small community that they have lived for 60, 70, or 80 years and there has never been a program advanced in which there would be a contribution made by the governments of this country towards seeing to it that some assistance can be given, and I can assure you that economically, as you can in your own minds, Mr. Chairman, that it would be much cheaper, much cheaper to have these people looked after in their own local communities than it would be to flock to Lions Manor or some place such as this. So I say that we have to help these

600 AprU 6, 1970. (MR. BEARD Cont•d) ••.. people help themselves. They've lived their three score years and ten, or whatever it is, and they can no longer provide for themselves. Another problem that they have is that, in the past, many, many of them have had tuber culosis. Many have spent 10, 15 years confined to a hospital, and they are sent back home; they are sent back home with a letter from the doctor saying these people should have light duty only.

They have lost a few ribs and maybe they've lost a lung; they're incapable of looking after themselves; and they judge them by the way that life is carried on in the community of the southern parts of the province and they allot them $25.00 or $30.00 a month pension. And they send them back home where life is at its harshest, and when they work in the bush to get their wood, when they go out to do any trapping or fishing, it is difficult and hard.

There are no light duties, and yet continuously the governments overlook the fact that these people are sent back to the reservation to be looked after by other people, to be looked after by the people that are around the community, and if you know the Indian people, they will say that anybody is their cousin; they will accept these people as their responsibility. They really have very little to share with them - but it goes on.

This is why I say that sometimes we say it's apathy but it really is a program that goes back, as far as their civilisation is concerned, to the very first where they had a built-in clause in their community that the strong look after the weak. And they did. And they do to day. But here we, who are even able to assist our parents as they get older, look toward society to look after them, and we have many monuments within the city that prove that we as children are not prepared to look after our mothers and fathers. We look to government to look after them.

And these people are ones who say_ "We will look after our parents. We will look after our grandparents, and we will look after those children which are considered illegitimate, and we will look after those children who have lost their parents. " They are prepared to do that but they want some assistance. They need that assistance because in their communitive life of many years ago this was really no problem. Somebody had to go out and hunt a little harder and fish a little better and they would be able to provide the product.

But we, in our industrial world, have done away with this opportunity for them to look after themselves, and we in fact have kept to that straight treaty of saying, "But you stay on those lands which were given to you because your only security is there. If you come out from that area, then look out; you're on your own." And we have not prepared them to be on their own. And many who are middle age or old age are not prepared to take that chance. They would rather live and starve a little, and hope a little, and carry on the way they have in the past, and I would hope that the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, can remember these things as he sits in his soft seat in his ministerial office, as many ministers have done before. They have sat there and said, "Really, this is no problem of ours." And after we sat down in the House and complained about these things, they said, "Well, that's over for another year.

Unless we're having a special session we won't have to hear this again." But I think the time has come when a little education is going to bring about a protest from the people and say to the Minister and to governments at all levels; we expect the same treatment as you are bragging about giving to the rest of Manitoba.

And I think that in many respects, as far as land mass, we're talking about three-quarters of the province as being a have-not province in respect to the services that are being given to them - not that are bei.rig offered. -We in this House- pat ~urselves-{)n the back and say that the servieea are available, but do we go out and make sure that those services are made available? And I say no, or the conditions . would not be those which we see as we go from commun ity to community in the central and northe-rn parts of this province.

We•re not talking about a few hundred people, we're not talking about a few thousand people, but we're talking about many thousands of people. We are not talking about one party. We're talking about govern ment and the responsibility of government; and the rest of the people of this province, if they want to share in what the north has to offer, then they certainly must share the services that they relax in and enjoy with the people of the rest of the province.

I would hope that the Minister will consider this and I would hope that, after he has considered it, he would look more towards an independent Department of Northern Affairs where he can share some of the expertise in his department, some of the experts, and develop a strong ministerial department which would look after these problems. They're not going to be any more expensive in administration than they are today because the Minister has got a good share of our estimates, but it would be a transfer of this just as it would be a transfer of

April 6, 1970 601 (MR. BEARD cont'd. ) ••••• education to a department that knows better how to deal with these things. And this, as I go back again, Mr. Minister, to Gillam where the program was made available to them in the past and where they want to pick up their initiative and only get those things that were available to them before, and use them in another form, then they are dis couraged.

And this is why I say that if we're going to get closer to dispensing services of a government nature to three-quarters, the rest of this province, then I think we have to do it· through a central agency where the responsibility will lie directly on a minister, and there will be no buck-passing by one department saying, "I'm sorry.

That's the responsibility of some body else," or "You will have to go to Indian Affairs to see about this." I think by now we have to accept the fact that if we are going to expand, to look into the resources of three-quarters of this province, then we have to expand our government services not in manpower and not in cost, but expand in thinking, because technically we've overcome any of Mother Nature's problems in the north, certainly as far as many of our people, they're very productive in many ways, but we haven't mentally overcome that road-block that's there, where we say everything in the north must be done the same way as we've done in the south - because you won't get away with it.

It's proven to be a failure in the past and it will continue to be a failure in the future unless this government accepts the responsibility of saying, "We will go into the north and we will do things in a responsible manner, but also in one which will be acceptable to those people that live in the north, because they're a little different, they're a little more independent, and it amazes me when people sit in the south and say, "Who would. want to go and live in the north anyway? Who would want to live up there when they can live in the south?" Who would want to live in Manitoba when they can live in B.

C. or Minnesota or wherever it may be? There are people that live in many areas because they choose to do so, and most Northern Manitobans live in Northern Manitoba because they choose to do so.

And if this is the case, then I think that the government must choose to bring government to the people of Northern Manitoba instead of hiding behind this great wall that exists between north and the south- hiding behind the fact that if they sit tight in Winnipeg, they won't be worried about the problems of Northern Manitoba because they'll never get down to them; they won't filter down; and they haven't in the past and they won't in the future, unless the government has the guts to get out and do something about it and start representing people regardless of their color and their creed, regardless of whether they're Indians or Metis.

It is very fine to say to ourselves that the halo will get a little tighter if we bring in a Bill for Human Rights, but we can do a lot more than making it just legal by going out and dispensing these services as they should be. If we're going to give electricity to the farmers, let's give it to everybody. If we're going to give telephones to southern communities, let us give it to all of the communities. Because if Manitoba is to continue and retain itself as a province, let's give the services - not to the chosen few that live in the south, but to all of Manitoba.

And this is what the province in the past, or governments in the past have said: ''I'm sorry. We can't do that. It's too expens ive." But it's no more expensive to give it to ail of the people of Manitoba than it is to just a chosen few because when you see what can take place when you develop an area, and you find the return, then I am sure that you will find, as government, that there will be a return in propor tion to your willingness to invest money.

I don't think you have to hide behind office doors when large groups come from southern communities and say we demand this and we demand that, and how, my goodness, you're spend ing so much money in the north. The north is the future, and whether they want to go up there and live or not, there's still the availability of the return from the resources that these people are developing in the north. And if they think the north is getting too much, then they can move north. There's lots of room. So I don't agree with people who say that they're getting a better deal north. If they are, let them go up there.

I'm sure that there'll. be many of us ready to make sure that they have the same opportunity as the rest of the people that live in the north. And I'm sorry, Mr.

Minister, as usual we cha8ed out over half the members of the House when we talk about the problems that can arise in the north, but that is the attitude of people of southern Manitoba and it has been the attitude of government, and they can't justify themselves on a few large industrial developments in the north and say, "We have done a good job." Be cause until you look after the people that live in the north, then you haven't done a proper job, and I would hope, and I am secure in my feelings that possibly I have reached you, because I think that you already realize some of the problems that exist, and I hope that when we come around next session, you will be able to give us an optimistic program, maybe similar to what

602 Aprll 6, 1970 (~. BEARD cont•d. ) • Manitoba Telephone System has said when they said that they were going to take the old phones that southern Manitoba no longer requires, that they've been flied away in storage and they've run out of storage, so they're going to develop the north with the old telephones - and we'll accept them.

We'll accept them, because they will serve us and serve us very well until we can grow to the point where we'll be demanding Direct Dial Service, etc., and I have hope that your services will follow where you'll be able to say to us on a future date that the services that you are offering the large populations of Manitoba will in fact be distributed to all of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. J. R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Many of the aspects of the Health and Social Services have been discussed at pretty fair length and I'll be very brief in my statement.

I'd like to spend a little time, though, talking about the homes for retardates in Manitoba, and one in particular that affects me and my constituency is the Sprucedale Home in Austin. Now there are between 10 and 12 students at the present time in this institution. They are picked up every morning on a bus route, delivered to the school, spend the day, and are brought back home again. Now we're more or less getting reay to graduate this class.

There are new comers arriving all the time, and a proposed addition there would be a permanent residence for some of these children - or not children now; many of them are adults or over 21 years old - and there has been considerable work gone into a project to establish a residence. Much of it is- well, the procuring of the land, 6. 7 acres and this has been purchased through private donation in the town of Austin. The floor plan has been presented to the Association of Mental Retardates and passed, and I might add that this was also done voluntarily. I believe that the proposed cost is running about $48, 000.

They feel that they could handle -- their overhead per pupil per day would be roughly $4. 29. Now I think that when this comes-- it's in the process of going through the channels of government to be brought before the Minister and the Cabinet, and I would certainly appreciate and I'm sure the people in this area·would, the fact that this volunteer labour has been done up to this point. The land is purchased; it's all ready to go ahead on, and there has been a very dedicated group of people working on this and they have been working on it now for a considerable number of years.

The projects that are involved in these places are greenhouses, controlled workshops, and under this new setup they are proposing a bit of a market gardening enterprise, cucumber acreage, possibly an acre or two, and this sort of thing, and the enthusiasm that is being shown by the students is really something to see. We have to accept the fact that this, in a lot of cases, is going to be these people's lives, and their interest is really terrific. It would sur prise anyone to go and just look and see the enthusiasm that they put into their projects and which I'm quite sure they would put into market gardening.

So with these few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I would like once more to impress on the Minister that, if at all possible, this project be hurried through as fast as it can be. I'm sure the expense isn't this prohibitive considering the amount of pupils that will be handled, the amount of volllllteer labour that will be donated, and so with these few remarks, I'll close. ~you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I'd like to go back last week when the Hon ourable Member for St.

Vital took the floor here and mentioned -- he started by mentioning the rats and so on. Well, I'd like to mention to the Hvnourable Member for St. Vital and the other members of this House that we are looking into the problem and we hope to find a solution to what could be more of a problem than some people like to think. He made reference equally to the homes for retardates. I think his reference was pinned down to the St. Amant ward and Sanatorium in St. Vital. We do have a request in my office. We are looking into the matter. We have requirements, not only for St.

Amant, we have for other facilities in the province, and at this moment I can't reveal any exact amount that will be allocated. He mentioned equally the conflict that seems to exist regarding welfare in the province be tween municipalities and the provincial government. I would like to mention here that we are contemplating an amendment to the Act that would allow total welfare takeover by the Province. Naturally, before we do this we'll enter into ·negotiation with the municipalities concerned. We•ll get more details on this later during the session.

April 6, 1970 . 603 (MR. TOUPIN cont•d.) . The Honourable Member for River Heights - 1 see he's not in his chair now; he'll probably read this on Hansard - made reference to social development officers for the north. I beg your pardon? Yes- this is what I said. Oh- community. Right. This is something that's been' talked about by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and myself. J1's not finalized y~t. Whatever solution we come upon, I'm quite assured will be the best solution for the people who are concerned, the people we want to serve better in the north. The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose made mention about the medicare and hospital premiums for elderly persons' housing, nursing homes and so on. Well I have to agree with the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose on all the - and I believe that the Honourable Member for St. Boniface made mention of this equally -that I for one, and I believe that I'm quite sure in say ing this that the Cabinet would want to include such services if only the Federal Government would actually support such a venture. We can't at this stage cover these costs ourselves. Mr.

Drewry, the President of the Treasury Board in Ottawa, was down in Manitoba a few .weeks ago, and I stressed to him the importance of the Federal Government to look at this with a favourable eye if they were serious about wanting to look upon the problem of inflation seriously. I think this is a way to try and curtail some of this inflation that we have in Manitoba and Canada in general. There would definitely be a difference in cost. If we were looking at alternate care. we would be releasing quite a few patients that we have in our hospitals today to have them cared for in alternate care facilities.

We are pursuing with the Federal Government the pqs sibility of having a change there in the near future. Unfortunately, this has been called for many years ago, and there doesn •t seem to be much changes on the part of the Federal Gov ernment. But I do believe, very seriously, that their seriousness about wanting to talk about inflation will reflect on their reaction, at least partly on their reaction to this proposal by our government - most definitely. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, would the speaker submit to a question? MR. TOUPIN: Ye!f. MR.

MOLGAT: Has a study been made in Manitoba as to the cost involved to the province, the total cost, assuming that there's no further contribution, of undertaking this project. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, the cost has been made, Mr. Chairman, but I can•t give you the exact figure here. I could try and get it for you. Now the Honourable Member for St. Boniface came back with the same proposal tllat he made in 1960. If we•re serious about looking into this grave problem, I think, we do have the support from the Honourable Member from St. Boniface and we have the support of my col leagues here in Cabinet.

He came back with the same argument that was made by the Honour able Member for Birtle- Russell regarding the division of this department. I don't agree more with my honourable friend from St. Boniface than I do with my honourable friend from Birtle Russell. I still feel that this department should not be split, should not be divided; that we should do everything not to divide it but to unify this department, and we will do this. Jn this coming session we have a Bill that will amalgamate the Department of Health and Social..Develgp ment.

I believe what can be done, with the good qualified civil servants that we have, that we can do a good job with the Department of Health and Social Services although it is the biggest department as far as civil servants are concerned. The Honourable Member for Rhineland came back again today and he's been askiDg for a lot of reports. Well, I think this is good; he's plaYing a good role in the House. He•s askiDg good constructive questions and I think he's serving his people well-- (Interjection) -in a lot of cases. That•s without wanting to agree with his politics, but I say that he's asking good· questions.

I sat in-- well, I didn't sit in the House but I used to come down to Law Amend ments way back in 1958 and later, and every time that I came on public affairs my honourable friend from Rhineland was there, especially when we were talking about credit unions and so on. Well, I think I have part of your answers today. Let's start by the report that you've been asking for, the Hospital Commission and so. I'm very sorry to tell you that I haven•t got that but I will have in the next few days.

It's being held, for your information and for the informa tion of the members of the House, it's being held at the printer's. I have a rough copy here but I wouldn't want to present that to you before it's finished. We should have it, they tell me here, in the next few days, two days at maximum. Now so far as your question regarding either a surplus or a deficit, I'd like to make a comment on that before you do get the report. There is a surplus this year, that is at the end

604 April 6, 1970 (MR. TOUPIN cont'd. ) ••••• of 1969. The surplus is substantial, but once you take the over all picture it•s not really that good because we have to go back to the operating deficit for the six months ended December 31, 1968, which was $5,893,000. 00, and the net operating deficit fn>m January 1, 1959 to December 31, 1968, which was $4,461, 000; an over•all deficit of _ $10, 354,000 less the excess of revenue over expenditures for the year ending December 31, 1969 of $5, 485, 000; a net deficit at the end of December, 1969 of $4, 869, 263. 00.

Now the Honourable Member for Rhineland equally asked a question regarding - and I think a question came equally from the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and maybe many others in the House- regarding hospital construction and renovation projects for 1970. These are pro jects under way as at January, 1970- I'll give you the names but I won't give you any amounts because the amounts are still to be determined and finalized: Winnipeg General Clinical In vestigation Unit- hospital renovations; Children's expansion from 23::! to 314 beds, including east wing extension of $1. 3 mlllion.

The Winnipeg General - an addition to "A" and "B" wings, University Clinic and Emergency, Power Plant and Services -new addltlon to provide 83 addi tional psychiatric beds, obstetric and so on, and there's a Clinical Investigation on the east wing. Medical Centre - 20o-bed extended treatment facllity, psychiatric facilities. St. Boniface - extension and renovations apart from what was announced a little while back. The D. A. stewart Centre - addition to provide 77 TB and respiratory disease beds.

Here are projects who are under way again as of the 1st of January, 1970: Erickson- expansion and renovations to improve service facilities; Russell- new 38-bed hospital and residence to replace existing 28-bed facllity; Teulon - new six'-bed residence. See, when we announced Russell, I think you have to accept, the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, that we keep all politics away and we look at the need. MR. GRAHAM: If the Minister wlll allow me to explain, I think the Russell Hospital was started four years ago. MR. TOUPIN: That's okay.

I think we know the need since we accept it and go along with your request. Teulon, there's a new six'-bed residence; Winnipeg, there's the Victoria General, there's a new 254-bed hospital to replace existing 135-bed facility.

And here are projects that are to start in 1970: Ashern- new 16-bed hospital; Dauphin new laundry facility; Flin Flon- renovation and expansion from 96 to 120 beds; Gimli -- (Inter jection) -wait a minute, the north always comes later Joe- new 45-bed active treatment hospital to replace existing 24-bed facility and medical clinic at Riverton; Grandview- renova tion and expansion to improve facilities; Lynn Lake- that's north- new 25-bed hospital; Portage la Prairie- expansion from 94 to 100 active treatment beds, plus a 35-bed extended treatment unit; The Pas- renovation and expansion from 101 to 116 active treatment beds plus a 25-bed extended treatment unit.

Going back to Winnipeg, new 40-bed psychiatric unit; Misericordia - new emergency and out-patient department; and there's quite a few minor projects that we have here for Winnipeg and for outlying rural areas. I could mention here that it could include whatever the request was from the Honourable Member for Rhineland about $8,000 that he was talking about.

There's projects that are in the planning stage, which are approved and in the planning stage: Beausejour - renovation and expansion from 21 to 30 beds; Brandon - 200-bed extended treat ment hospital - I think this goes along to tell you exactly how we feel about extended treatment; to replace 193 beds, Asslniboine Hospital; Hamiota- expansion and renovation to improve facilities; Hodgson- I think the Honourable.Member for Gimli and the Honourable Member for St. George would be happy to hear this -there's a new 38-bed hospital replacing 15 beds at Fisher River. -- (Interjection) - That'll come later.

Neepawa - expansion from 34 to 38 beds and improved service facilities. I see you have a supporter there. Shoal Lake - expansion and renovation to improve service facilities; Souris - new 36-bed hospital to replace the existing 33-bed hospital. Now we're going back to- well, before we go back to Winnipeg we must add here that we have something in the offing for Thompson and we've announced Churchill not too long ago. There was a project there in Churchill that we put a press release on before the session and Thompson is in the planning stage.

There is quite a need there, Thompson now being such an exploding- not progressive- exploding northern community. There are projects approved but I must say that they are pending so keep it all in mind. Pilot Mound- there's a new 25-bed hospital replacing the existing facility at Crystal City; Selkirk- renovation and expansion from 77 to 90 beds. For the time being, apart from the minor projects that could be considered,

AprU 6, 1970 605 (MR. TOUPIN cont•d. ) ••••• this is the list. When there's an announcement made there's always good and there's less good, but there's always this opening, that we're always ready to consider urgencies and projects which can be included in the classification of minor p:J;"ojects. The Honourabie Member for Rhineland equally asked a question about per diem and so On regarding hospital projects.

I must say that he will get this information in the next few days in the report when it is submitted, and equally so far as the different types of hospitals that we have in our province and the deficits that you were asking for, they point it out more clearly than I indicated a few minutes ago. The Honourable Member for Rhineland - well this is regarding your report you asked for to be submitted. The Honourable Member for Churchill had quite a few - I see he's left the House - maybe I should wait because I've got something here - I have my personnel that brought me a note down here.

They were mentioning a question asked by the Honourable Mr. Borowski, but I think they were probably talking about you being the MLA or the Honourable Member for Churchill. It was regarding old age pensions. We are advised that the Federal Government is setting up tribunals to visit northern communities- and I think you'll be happy to hear this- for the health applicants, aged 65 and over, to establish their eligibility for old age security. This is being done and I think it•s a wise move by the Federal Government, to try and correct the problems they had for quite a while. --(Interjection)-- That's right.

Well, I can•t hold up much longer because that was the last speaker. The Honourable Member for Churchill made mention about this portfolio being an im portant portfolio. I agree that it's important but it's equally very sensitive and it's really re warding, not only for the Minister who is responsible but for all the people who are concerned, whether they be civil servaats, social recipients or those who want to come off welfare. This portfolio offers them au types of aid that we could classify into social development.

And I say to the Honourable Member for Churchill that the Federal Government must take their re sponsibUity in the north. If they have no sense of urgency, we have and will take our responsi bUity regarding hospital facUlties, doctors, dentists, social assistance and so on. We have in the past nine months that we've been in office and we have quite a few programs in the offing for the future. He had comments about nurses' aid program. He probably means licensed practical nurses' program.

There is a Statutory Advisocy Board under the LPN ACt and a sub-committee of the Advisory Board constantly re-evaluates the training program. The nurses' aids are usually trained by individual hospitals for limited tests. It is true they are licensed practical nurses and day dispensers who may be nurses' aids, who have no direct supervision because of the shortage of medical personnel. However, these workers have access by telephone to the larger centres and health units. It is not satisfactory but the best available in view of shortage of personnel in a lot of cases up north.

The Honourable Member for Churchill spoke about X-Ray survey teams. These are not civil servants but Sanatorium Board staff. The Honourable Member for Churchill made comments regarding preventative medicine. I would like to mention that this concerns not only medical but the welfare problems that we have au over Manitoba. We now have a group of dentists to serve the north on a part-time basis where and when needed, and we do want to give a more permanent service to the north in the near future.

Measures were being taken while I was sitting in the so-called soft chair in my office before we entered the session, just to set the record clear. Even if the chair is soft, I think it may go a little better sometimes to do our work. Medical and social development services in the north should, I agree with the honourable member, be of the same standard as in other remote areas in the south, east and west of our province. Now there's 100,000 lakes and beautiful servants of this province of ours. When we talk of the north in the House, I believe we should call the members by ringing the Division Bell.

Just like the Honourable Member for Churchill said a w.hile ago, in a lot of cases when the Hon ourable Minister of Transportation gets up and talks about the north, or the Honourable Member for ChurchUi, there seems to be a lot of members who get up from their seats and go for coffee. I think we should put more emphasis on the north, like the east puts more emphasis on the west than years ago. This is really where we have to look forward and expand in the future. The Honourable Member for Gladstone made a comment regarding the Home for Retard ates in Austin.

I will be able to supply him With more details on this very shortly and I wish to thank him for his few words that he offered.

' 606 April 6,, 1970 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Mr. Chairman, at the outset may I join in with the congratulatory re marks that have been passed on to the Minister. Like many, I was watching eagerly to the develOpments that would take place after the appointment, and I must say that I am enthused with what has taken place this far. I think that this Minister represents his government and his department well. I must say, however, that I think that if he worked as hard as his sister, who happens to be on my teaching staff, that things are likely to improve even further.

Being a southerner and an MLA representing a southern area, Mr. Chairman, I was ex pecting that as soon as I would stand up that the members from all over would flock in because they were out simply because someone from the north was speaking. I am a little saddened by the reality that this is not happening. I resent a little, I resent a little the division that has been indicated.

I am certain that things are not satisfactory in the north but I am equally cer tain that there are areas in the south that need consideration as well, and I think that we should take a positive approach, not saying, It's out there and we want it, but saying we need what we need. I think that we have to be men about this and I think we have to call the shots as they are, not simply try, but be firm and be positive. I'd like to compliment you, Mr. Minister, on the introduction of your estimates- and I'm referring now to the speech that you gave in

part in French. I appreciated, as one of those who understood it, the opportunity to hear you speak French and I was thinking as you delivered this speech that many of my colleagues, though they might not be indicating this to you directly, are interested in learning the language and are appreciative of your gesture. I would have liked to do the same thing today to enable people to become more familiar with the sound of the ian gauge, however, I think that it would be nice if our members had a translation immediately so that they can relate the two.

This could become a learning situation and an appreciated one, as it is I understand in Ottawa, if it were truly designed as a learning situation. I think it could be developed to include even more than French eventually - eventually, as long as it is a learn ing situation, people will appreciate it existing. Now to come to the matters of your department, you have indicated earlier that you intend to implement part of the social audit.

Now I'm not an authority on the social service audit that you have received, but I am interested ln it because it seems to me that it is designed to pave the way for people who are in need of social service of one kind or another. It seems to stream line- a pipeline if you will, a communication system, and this is needed badly. I'm disap pointed however that the terms of reference for the people who drew up the social audit restricted it to Winnipeg.

I can fully understand that in Winnipeg it is essential that we have this kind of streamlining, but let's not forget that in the rural areas, as was pointed out by the Member for Churchill, it is equally important. In discussing with some members of that committee, of the committee responsible for producing the audit, I suggested that maybe some of the reasons why they felt it wasnotessential that the rural parts of Manitoba were included was that they were getting fewer referrals from that area. But the reason why they're getting fewer referrals, Mr.

Minister, is that there is few systems by which to make a referral, and you'll find that if you question the rural MLA's that in many cases they are in fact .the people making the referrals and I think that's hardly satisfactory. I wish to join in with the member that mentioned something about pollution, and seeing that you're the pollution Minister that's the right fellow to mention it to. I'm concerned as most other members, Mr. Minister, about pollution and I know that you will throw your weight and that of your department in the direction of eliminating this very serious problem facing our society.

I am a bit aware of some experiments that are being conducted now at the university which are very encouraging and enlightening with regards to pollution control and sewage treat ment and so on. If you are not aware of those I would suggest it would be worth your while to get some information from them. It is quite an exciting project. A little mention was made of the community development officer, and this is an area that touches me closely, because for the past few years in the area in which I was school superin tendent a community development officer had been employed and did produce some excellent work.

It did function well for both the school and the two communities involved. Now. regret tably, this same position has been discontinued and we are very eager to find out, Sir, if this is a permanent gesture or just a temporary measure and another appointment will be made. This is in the area of Dominion City and the Roseau Indian Reserve as you well know.

April 6, 1970 607 (MR. GIRARD cont'd.) To disagree with my friend the Member of St. Boniface, I cannot think of the advantages there would be in splitting your portfolio, and the reason I say this is that separation willbretJd more inefficiency. If there is room for co- operation and room for efficiency, I think it can be done best in one portfolio where the civil servant who is going out to look into matters of health can also be interested in matters of social services. I don't like, Mr.

Minister, the idea of having some civil servants repeat or mention to my people- the people whom I repre-· sent- no, this is not my problem, you're going to have to contact so and so. You are 16 and I only deal with people from eighteen and over. Now this kind of problem I do not appreciate because of the lack of communication that's already there. I don't think it's a proper thing to compound the confusion by making separate little compartments where one person is respon sible for only this group and nobody else. Let's have the blind and the deaf looked after by one person and not two.

Recently I was visiting the Heading ley facilities and I was very interested in the discus sion and the philosophy of the Superintendent, Mr. Bill Lawson. I was very impressed by his attitude towards 1he service that you should be rendering, and that is towards the rehabilita tion rather than the incarceration. I noticed through the visit, however, that the facilities at Headingley Jail left much to be desired. I was wandering, Mr. Minister if you had some con crete ideas of the renovations that will be taking place at that particular institution and when they will occur.

Just a final word on the plight of the civil servants. I would like to mention that effici ency in your department is no doubt a must. You have now at your service almost half as many people as we have teachers in Manitoba, and with a large number of employees of that sort you must depend on efficiency in your own department. As a southerner, Mr. Minister, I'm also interested in potential developments for a total care home at St. Malo. I believe some mention has been made by a private individual who is interested in that development and I wonder if you could comment on this matter.

I'm away south - I mean deep south. Mr. Minister, again I'd just like to congratulate you on the work you've done so far and we look for better in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 54-- MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Mr. Chairman, if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. HARDY: I appreciate the opportunity of having the answers to some of the questions that I posed on Friday last. Unfortunately, because of the time I wasn't able to make some further comments.

But insofar as the statements that were made and the answers that were provided this afternoon by the Minister, is the Minister in a position to -- I believe he sug gested that welfare will become the sole responsibility of the province at a future date. Now I'm assuming that because the mechanics, because the organization has already been estab lished inasmuch as that centralization is no doubt going to occur and in fact then be decentra lized into various areas, can the Minister advise if the total welfare costs will include the administration costs at that level.

Presumably, they will still be administered through some local municipal organization. As the Minister is I'm sure aware, at the present time the ad ministration costs are 50 percent of the increase between 1964 and the present date, and although this is not a burden, again it's an additional cost to the municipalities and I would hope that with the introduction of this program that in fact these administrative costs will be borne by the provincial government. I also thank him for his comments with respect to the St.

Amant Ward, and here again and I'm quoting from the social service audit- that a recommendation was made by that organization and I believe a brief was presented to the government calling for the accommoda tion for an additional 275 retardates- and these would be 75 in one category and 200 in another category - and with the introduction of this program, this in turn will relieve some of the problem that exists, as I understand it, in Portage la Prairie.

Now as to whether or not it's a good program to institute - and I'm speaking of the combination of the two areas under one Minister, and I have no doubt that the Minister is quite capable of administrating this particular function with the help of the civil servants- but here again I would ask, is this in fact a recommendation of the operation productivity or is this a new approach to some of the problems.

608 AprU 6, 1970 ((MR. HARDY cont'd.) Now I was very pleased as a matter of fact to have the Minister advise this committee that additional assistance will be made available to elghteen-year-olds, or over eighteen, who because of circumstances in which they find themselves are not able to continue them education. Now if this is in fact going to be the case, I appreciate this step very much.

I think perhaps many of us .:re acquainted with problems wherein this has arisen where eighteen-year-olds because in some cases -- because in many cases they do not have the financial resources and in some cases as a matter of fact they don't have these financial resources because their parents just -- I'm not suggesting are not in a position to assist them, but they have adopted the attitude that they are the responsibility of the government. But here again I'm sure we'll hear more on that particular aspect of the program itself.

Most of the comments that I intended to make were surrounding the cost of welfare to the municipal organizations, municipal areas, but I'm very pleased, as I mentioned, that this in fact is going to come about, that welfare is going to be the sole responsibility of the Provincial Government. In this particular area I would hope also that the Minister, or Mr. Chairman, through the Minister, that they will con sider an upgrading and a continuation and an expansion of the present dental service, dental care program in the primary schools.

I think that this is essential, that at this stage in life that children are in fact treated to the best possible care insofar as dental services are concerned, and this does not only apply to dental services. I was a little concerned in one area of the Minister's budget and his estimates, that in the area of health and social service education there's an increase of $20,000. 00.

This seems to be a rather minimal increase in this particular area which I think is extremely, extremely important, and in this particular case I would like to congratulate the department and the Minister for the introduction of the little pamphlet, the brochure on drugs. It's most gratify ing that they are adopting this attitude and making this information available to the youngsters in the primary and secondary schools.

But I would also suggest that in this particular area additional monies have to be made available not only to take this program, present this pro gram in a much greater depth and to a larger degree in our educational system, but it also I feel should be placed, or money should be made available, although it is a problem not unique to any particular area, but it is a problem that municipal governments and other organizations, other levels of government have to assume some responsibility, and I'm suggesting to the Minister that in fact I believe money should be made available to upgrade and have certain seminars, have educational programs, have other programs whereby law enforcement agencies.

MR. G. JOHNSI'ON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order ... MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSI'ON: I think a sign like that is in very poor taste in this Chamber and I think it should be taken down. MR. CHAffiMAN: Well I'm afraid that I have to agree. I just noticed it this instant so I would ask the Honourable Member for Riel, is it? -- Radisson, pardon me, to remove the bit of advertising. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Chairman, I just noticed it. I didn't see it.

It seems to be directed at this direction but I noticed a while back somebody was a little amused but I didn't realize what the reason was. MR. G. JOHNSI'ON: Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order. They've been promi nently displayed all afternoon on top of the desks and I think that while it may be humorous to some people, I don't think it's in keeping in this Chamber. MR. CHAmMAN: Yes, well I think we've now dispensed with the matter. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I feel that the members of this Chamber should ignore it as should the people in Manitoba. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS.

INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): I hope that if the press reports this they also re port the fact that Mrs. Enns did not have a sign in the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the member please continue his comments. MR. HARDY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess we can blame that on the gremlins, but I can only concur in the remarks of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. In the question of education and education al programs, as I stated, I feel that an intro- duction of some type, an injection of some monies to various organizations should be made in

April 6, 1970 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) ...•• order to place law enforcement agencies on a par, or beyond being on par, they should be in ·fact in a situation where they can have a much better appreci.. ation and much better facilities in order to cope with this very disturbing problem that, as 1 say, is not unique only to this province. There was another area that I had intended to discuss very briefly and this has to do with the institutional taxes, and I would ask the Minister through you, Mr.

Chairman, to consider the introduction of- or at least the inclusion of hospitals and other institutions on the assess ment rolls of municipal governments. There's an area here as I suggested that there is a responsibility insofar as local levels of government are concerned, but by the same token I believe it's a two-way street and that these should be given consideration insofar as the assess mentis concerned on hospitals and other institutions in this area. One item did concern me very much and this was the reduction of monies to be made available to volunteer organizations.

Now I believe this was the comment or words to this effect that was made, that there would be a reduction in grants to volunteer organizations, and I would suggest to the Minister that the social·service audit indicated that in the Metropolitan Winnipeg area there are some 35,000 volunteers working with the various associations and organizations in the preventive area and other areas in this, or with this problem that is facing us, and I believe that probably another look should be taken at this in order that these monies be made available to these organizations. I had the privilege, Mr.

Chairman, of attending a luncheon just last week of a volunteer organization to a degree, and some of the comments were made to those in attendance from an International Seminar that was held in Melbourne, Australia, wherein these problems were discussed. I believe it was indicated at that time that some 85 percent of the total problem, as indicated in the pamphlet of drugs, is attributable to the alcoholic problem. There are a number of volunteer organizations who have taken it upon themselves to assist those that have this problem, and I would suggest here again that additional monies be made available.

Now I can appreciate that money is a problem. It was suggested that it is a problem insofar as home care is concerned, and I would agree with the honourable members from ste. Rose and st. Boniface that this is one area of preventive medicine- I don't suppose you could call it preventive medicine, but an area in which if this in fact were undertaken, that it would relieve some of the pressure on some of the institutions. There are two schools of thought I believe, at least personally I have opinions both ways, for the introduction of health centres throughout certain areas.

Now I can see the rationale in establishing certain health centres. They would be under one roof and the professional advice and assistance would presumably be made available through these centres, but I'm also sug- gesting, Mr. Chairman, that with the introduction of this type of facility there is a very great possibility of the impersonal factor entering into a program of this type.

I believe - and I don't profess to be any expert, quite frankly I'm a layman in this area - but I believe because of some of the problems that do exist that a personal touch is required, a very personal touch is required, and that I'm a little concerned that this type of computerized approach to some of the problems dealing with people could in fact be a backward step.

Some comments have been made, and I can appreciate that this hopefully will soon be the responsibility of the province, but regardless of whether it's the responsibility of the province or whether it's the responsibility of the province and municipal governments, that the problem of welfare and welfare payments - perhaps you might consider, or at least lt might be taken that because it's provincial money, which in fact is money of all representa tives or all members, taxpaying public in Manitoba, that the same close scrutiny would not be maintained on the allocating of funds for welfare purposes and in families in need. 1 would hope that stringent measures would be introduced, because there are many many cases, and unfortunately I think this has been borne out, that where you have second and to some degree third generation welfare recipients, which is most unfortunate, I think in an area of preven tion here that this to a degree could be overcome, and I would hope that the government would take a very long, close look at this; and in addition, also institute into the program an area where assistance may be made available or could be or should be made available through other members of families when this in fact can take place.

And this also applies to the 18 year old who is attempting to carry on his education. Now I think it applies both ways, that children should help parents and, vice versa, parents should help children. So with those few remarks, Mr. Minister, as I say, I am very pleased at your comments

610 Apru 6, 1970 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) • . . . . this afternoon with respect to the over-all problems of wel fare and the takeover by the Provincial Government. As I mentioned on Friday, this approach is nothing new, it's been made on many many occasions by the Urban Association, by any number of governmental organizations, and I'm very pleased to see that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would like it to be known that nobody in the government side was responsible for putting up the - displaying of the name of Doug Rowlanl in this Assembly. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 54- (1) (a)-- The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: I wanted to ask the Minister whether he was able yet to answer my question about the cost of changing the name of the department. Just how much money is in volved in this? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, the remarks that I have to make could probably be made a little later on but I might as well do it now. This has to do in connection with the research on sewage lagoons, as far as the lagoons are concerned.

I note from the report on Page 41- and I would like to read that particular paragraph. It says here: "Practical research is terminating on the . . . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, please. I'm sorry, but I can't hear the honourable member very well because there's quite a bit of talking around and I'm quite sure others would like to hear. MR. FROESE: There's probably too much talking going on besides. I was referring to the matter of research.

I note from the report, and I would like to quote one paragraph from Page 41, as follows: "Practical research is terminating on the subjects of the treatment and conditioning of swim pool waters, the effects of sewage pollution on arable soils and the de velopment of aerated types of sewage treatment lagoons." I know that in certain areas of the province we have trouble with seepage from these lagoons and this is causing a problem as far as the immediate soils around becoming unproductive, and that in certain areas where they do have lagoons the towns have to acquire additional property for that very good reason.

There also have been court cases, and I think there's some before the courts at the present time, in connecticn with the matter of lagoons. Since Jlis matter of research is going to be terminated, are there reports available from the government on this matter, and where can they be secured, because I would like to know just what is the situation and what conclusions have been arrived at. I note that from the Press reports, as far as the Charleswood lagoon, apparently there is trouble there.

What is the government policy on this as far as allowing future lagoons to be established near larger urban centres, and is the government contemplating supplying and aiding these communities financially so that they can set up sewage plants other than lagoons to look after their problem? I think this is a matter that we should consider and I certainly would like to have some clari fication on this matter, because the report now says that they're going to terminate their research in connection with this.

I would like to know what conclusions they have arrived at and what solutions they have in mind for the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I asked the question the other day if the Minister knew how many people were civil servants and still on welfare and he didn't know at that time. I wonder does he know now. I don't know if he got the question or not. Did he get the ques tion? MR. CHAIRMAN: That seems to be all the questions. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, first of all I'd llke to thank the Honourable Member for Emerson, who I see is out of the House, for his few comments that he made. He made refer ence to the possibility of himself and others to express themselves in French and so on in the House and to the possibility of having a translation of this i.Inmediately when the speech is being made. Well I think this may become feasible in the future, but like my honourable col league says in the back, . . . not like yesterday.

I think we have to look forward, but if we're serious about either learning French, German, Ukrainian, Polish, Gaelic, I think we have to not only deliver in the language that we seem to prefer but equally receive it in that same language if we're serious abo-o.1t wanting to learn it.

AprU 6, 1970 611 (MR. TGUPIN con t'.d.) Regarding the social services audit, the Honourable Member for Emerson made refer ence to the welfare takeover only in the Greater Winnipeg area. Well I must emphasize that I feel as a start, we have to start somepice, that we are definitely going to put more emphasis on the Greater Winnipeg area, but this will be definitely open to the rest of the province and we will be negotiating with other municipalities in the Province of Manitoba.

Insofar as the item of pollution, measures of anti-pollution and so on, I am quite aware of \\hat's being done by the University of Winnipeg and by the University of Manitoba in this field, and I wish to congratulate them for what they're doing. I believe, and I'm quite sure that they are receiving total co-operation from the members of my department in this field.

Regarding community development officers, not only in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson - I know there has been a problem there in the last few days - there's one of our community development officers there that has resigned, has gone to work in the beauti ful Province of New Brunswick, but he will definitely be replaced and we will put more emph sis on the work being done by the community development officers throughout Manitoba.

I'm glad to see that not only my colleague in Cabinet but the member of the Official 0~ position seems to be in agreement with me when we talk about the Department of Health and Social Development, that this should be a unified department and not divided like some members seem to want to come forth with - at least two members did in the last few days. And 1 wish to thank him for his visit that he made recently - I think it was last week - to Headingley Jail and to his comment that he made insofar as the work being done there and what could be done.

So far as the visit that I made, I unfortunately did not have time to visit all the different quarters in the jail, but I had quite a good discussion with the inmates and some of the guards there, and I had reference made to me of what could be done by my officials in the department. I think we should- and it is actually covered in our estimates- we'll be looking at the medical cental suites in the jails- 1 think this is much needed- activity space, classroom space, and space for assessment and classification of inmates.

This will definitely lead to better program development by giving the space to carry out needed instruction and it will help to relieve the dehumanization aspect of the institution. A sewage treatment plant will be installed to reduce a contamination of the river- the water that we get from the river there. Renovations of the kitchen area, which leave a lot to be desired, to improve their food preparations. Painting is now being done, replastering and so on will be done more for what's needed there, internal water pipes and some equipment in the lighting system which leaves a lot to be desired.

I think the accent there - the Honourable Member for Emerson who has visited the jail - has to be to provide a program so that the prisoners can be retrained and accept responsibility in the com munity, \\ilich is the jail for them. Therefore, the most emphasized area of the expenditure is for activity and training space. The Honourable Member for Emerson made reference to the plight or not plight of the civil servants in this department. Well this is something that I can't agree with.

There may be a problem, not only in this department, I think the civil servants, \\ilether it be in the Department of Health and Social Development or the Department of Labour or the Department of Finance, have to be implicated, have to be given responsibility and they have to receive confidence on the part of the Minister and the Deputy Minister responsible. They have not only to be involved, but we have to accept in a lot of cases and follow up on their suggestions that they make: I think we should get them more involved, \\ilether it be by method of social anima tion or group dynamics and so on.

This is the point that I'd like to emphasize very seriously, especially when you do have a big department. You can't accept the theory that you're going to question at all times decisions made, that have to be made in a lot of cases, by civil servants. You have to delegate your functions and you have to delegate your functions in the methods that will be comprehensive, acceptable, and for the good of the people that the civil servants are called upon to serve. This is the emphasis that I'd like to place in the Department of Health and Social Services, to be called the Department of Health and Social Development.

The honourable member -- oh yes, on your comment insofar as the facilities required in St. Malo so far as elderly persons housing and so on, there is a private person who is in volved right now. I've heard from him and I've discussed different aspects of the program with him. It is still pending negotiation; he has to come forth with required specifications. If it is acceptable, a licence will be issued, and if we do place personnel in this home, they will re ceive the per diem determined by my department. And I wish to congratulate the people of

612 April 6, 1970 (MR. TOUPIN cont' d.) . . . . . St. Malo for having the initlati ve to go along with such a venture. I won't say who this gentleman is. The Honourable Member for St. Vital came with a reference regarding welfare takeover. I think I answered this a few minutes ago. The cost so far as the welfare takeover in the province, not only in the City of Winnipeg, is to be determined when we negotiate with'the dif ferent municipalities. Nothing is set as now. MR. HARDY: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister permit a question?

In a manner he has, in fact, answered the question but perhaps more specifically, will this intent have any effect on the mill rates being struck this year by municipalities? Will it be retroactive in nature? MR. TOUPIN: ... answer immediately this question. In my humble opinion, the mill rates will not be affected. So far as the clause for this to be retroactive, this could be retro active so far as the negotiation.

If we determine a certain amount, for instance, for the City of Winnipeg, if we took over Welfare completely, we could negotiate it on the cost -- it could be determined upon the cost of the City of Winnipeg for Welfare for the year, say, 1969, so it could be retroactive in this sense. I hope I answered your question partly. So far as the financial assistance to students 18 years old and over, I am working in co operation with the Minister of Youth and Education on this program. We have an amount that is voted in the estimates. A more statement will be made on this subject very shortly.

I wouldn't want to elaborate more at this time. So far as dental care services in our schools, I must emphasize that this is a much needed service and I do hope that we can place more emphasis on it. So far as the institutional taxes excluding hospitals and so on, this is a matter of policy that I would like to discuss with my colleagues. Regarding the reduction in grants for volunteers and private agencies, associations and so on, I can say very sincerely that there is no question of reduction whenever we have the funds available and when these different agencies meet the need of the people concerned.

So far as the health and welfare centres are concerned, this was a recommendation in the Social Services Audit. The implications the terms of reference are being drawn up now. I would not care to comment further at this time. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge came back asking me what it would cost to change the name of the Department of Health and Social Services. Actually the Department of Health and the Department of Welfare, to change this over to the Department of Health and Social Development, the cost will be minimal. I haven't got exactly the cost. It can be ...

The previous government had not completed the necessary legislation to create a Department of Health and Social Service, so actually I was sworn in as Minister of Health and than as Minister of Welfare. We are only completing what they started, really, in a sense, what the previous administration started. We could have left it as they had proposed it, to be called the Department of Health and Social Services, but I do want to put more emphasis on social development. The Honourable Member for Rhineland posed a question regarding research projects on sewage disposal and so on.

These are being terminated and will result in reports of the results obtained by the report that is being prepared now, and these will be applied to the practical problems in Manitoba regarding disposal sites, sewage and so on. I can't exactly say what's in the report now because it's still in the preparation stage. And regarding financial support for the construction of sewage treatment facilities, actually you can get financial sup port from the Federal Government, From CMHC- you can apply to CMHC regarding these facilities, sewet"s treatment and so on.

Another question here came from the Honourable Member from Rhineland regarding hospital per diem rates. The per diem rates, or rate of payment to hospital, are set by regu lation- I think you are quite aware of this- of the Hospital Commission itself, following an established process of budget review. These rates are public information and published in the Manitoba Gazette. The rates for 1969 were published in the October 4th issue of the Gazette. Rates for 1970 are not yet set. The Honourable Member for Pembina came with his question regarding civil servants on welfare.

My staff just informs me that they've tried to gather information on this but it is still not available. It should be available tomorrow so far as the number of civil servants who are on welfare. They had to check with the different rural offices and so on, and it takes a little

April 6, 1970 613 (MR. TOUPIN cont'd.) . . . • . time. But I'd like to emphasize right here and now that, so far as civil servants being on welfare, I don't believe that we should in a sense, you know, talk about civil servants in isolation. They're only say, one class of taxpayers in our province and we do happen to have, whether it be in my department or any other department, civil servants who received less, say, than a livable wage depending on the number of children that they have and so on.

In a lot of cases they may have to receive a supplement without having, say, to receive total assistance as a welfare recipient. I'm quite sure, Mr.

Chairman, that if we tOok the whole spectrum of professions in the Province of Manitoba that we'd find many of them who are supplemented- not totally on welfare but supplemented- and I have to agree that if a person is doing all he can to earn a living, but if he can't, because of his qualifications, be cause of his lack of talent in some cases, or lack of health, can't make a livable wage, that we have a responsibility to supplement and even help him by the system that we've established quite recently insofar as financial assistance to 18-year-olds and over, '1\ho want to get a better education or find better opportunities elsewhere.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. HARDY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would permit a question in con nection with some of the comments that he made. I believe the Minister indicated that, insofar as volunteer organizations were concerned, financial assistance would still be forthcoming if they in fact met the needs and requirements of the people.

Now, I'm taking that in that light when I ask this question: can the Minister indicate, of the 35,000 volunteers that are partici pating in the Metropolitan Winnipeg area at the present time, could he indicate what percent age and the number of organizations that in fact will be deleted or terminated from - or elimi nated as a matter of fact- from this group that in fact are making this contribution to society. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, but I can't answer that question. That I don't know. This will have to be evaluated and eventually a statement will come forth. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, MR. LEONARD H. CLAYOON (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would permit a question. Would you repeat your remarks regarding the takeover of welfare insofar as the City of Winnipeg is concerned. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I was trying to get my remarks to be quite vague. You know, really I was trying to make them vague in a sense, but we are definitely, Mr. Chair man, we are seriously looking at the possibility of a total takeover welfare, starting with the City of Winnipeg.

But first of all, I'd like to be able to get out of this -- not that I'd like to get out but I mean I have to wait until the session is over so I can negotiate with the officials of the City of Winnipeg to arrive at a financial agreement that will be not only satisfactory to the Province of Manitoba, but equally acceptable by the City of Winnipeg. MR. CLAYOON: A supplementary question, Mr. Chairman. You mentioned a "total takeover" and now you're talking. about a financial agreement between the City. Is this con tingent on the City making a payment to the province or is this total takeover? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, without wanting to start to negotiate with the Honourable Member for Wolseley, it could mean either one. I'd like to have, say, a payment made by the City of Winnipeg and still take over all responsibility of wei fare. In either case, '1\hether there's an amount that we agree upon that the City of Winnipeg will pay for, we could take over the responsibility of rendering service to the people of the Greater Winnipeg area, but if we don't arrive at a figure, a contribution that would be made by the City of Winnipeg to the province regarding this takeover, we'll have to raise taxes in another method.

This may mean that we will have to postpone the takeover. I hope I'm making myself clear. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: I wonder would you respond to two more questions, very brief questions. With regard to Headingley Jail, does this mean construction of buildings, the expansion that you mentioned? And in regard to St. Malo; if the licence were granted, is it possible that the developer would get financial assistance from the Government for developing? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, regarding Heading ley, it does mean buildings.

I can't say exactly what the size of the buildings will be, and it means other things that I've mentioned a few minutes ago. Regarding St. Malo, like I said awhile ago, we will pay for the per diem that's accepted. This is the only contribution that the province will make if need be, depending

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-26
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 26.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	beca15a7b0880c0d9b04cd0d9c27b10a74ab5db9

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