ISSN 0542-·5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 114 - 2:00 p.m., MON DAY, 25 JULY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTE TT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La \/E«endrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Nia kwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assini boia Gladstone Pem bina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle >,J .1untain Burro' Rossr·.ere lnks l: .ir Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP !ND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NDP PC NDP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 25 Ju ly, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commit tees . MINIS TERIAL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Min ist er of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement. Mr.

Speaker, On Frid ay, July 22nd, I stated that I would report to the House and to the province on the status of the aerial spraying operation to combat a potential outbreak of Western Equine Encephalitis. During the weekend aerial spraying was condu cted over the City of Winnip eg, including Headingl ey and the com muni ties of Steinbach and Ste. Anne. Aerial spraying was not carried out this morning to allo w the officials of Health, Environment, Agriculture, and Gover nment Services to exam ine prelimina ry monitoring results of the spraying operations.

I am pleased to report the prelimi nary tests ind icate that aerial spraying achie ved a very good mosquito kill with no known adverse effects to health or environment. My colleagues, the Minister of Health and the Mini ster of the Environment, will expand on the prelimina ry results of health and evnrironmental monitoring. Technic ally, the aerial spraying operation has been functioning exactly as expected. Due to the encouraging results received this morn ing, the aerial spraying operation will continue with the commun ities of Selkirk, Stonewall, and Stony Mountain this evening - weather conditions permitting.

The commun ities of Morden, Wink ler, Carman, and Portage will be consi dered as alternates for this evening. As encouraging as today's news is, I must also report that the spraying has also affected the honeybee population, as expected. The Min ister of Agricultur e will be making a statement on this tod ay. Of course, we must not lose sight of the real purpose for the aerial spraying operation; that is to protect as many Manitobans as possible agains t contra cting encephalitis. The Emergency Information Centre has answered over 5,200 telephone calls since becoming operational last Wednesday afternoon.

I would again like to invite any Manitoban with a concern or qu es tion reg ard ing Western Equine Encephalitis or the Aerial Spraying Program to call the Information Centre at 944-4844, or toll free 1-800-362- 3305. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of members on this side of the House, I would like to thank the Min ister for his statement and his update on the situation.

I am very pleased to see the strong statement contained in his report to the effect that prelimin ary tests thus far ind icate that aerial spraying achie ved a very good mosquito kill with no known adverse effects to health or environment. That's an im portant message to Manitobans, and it'3 im portant in the context of the battle that we have fought against the vector mosquito in this province for many years. Mr.

Speaker, we are unha ppy, of course, with the di sap pointing news with respect to the ho neybee population in the province and the effect that the spraying has had on that population, but it's not unexpected news. It's disappointing, it's regrettable, but it's not unexpected; and it's our understanding that the government intends to introduce a program of compensation for bee farmers, honey producers, and also is taking pains to advise bee farmers and persons engaged in the honey production business very carefully and very conscientiously of the spraying schedule, both times and locations.

That is about the only assistance that the government can give to that particular sector of our economy in conditions such as these. So we would simply urge very conscientious attention to the relay of that kind of information to honey producers. Othe r tha n that, Mr. Speake r, we accept the government's statement with satisfact ion, but still raise the qu estion as to where precisely the strongest indi cators for spraying are occurring and, in question period, we'll want to ask the government about the presence or the indication of any human or animal cases of the disease. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I have a statement also. It might answer some of your questions now, Bud.

Prelimina ry in formation received today from the Department of Entomol ogy, Un iversity of Manitoba, ind icate that the aerial sprayi ng program condu cted in Winn ipeg on Saturday evening and Sun day morning was "sati sfactory" and "equivalent to Baygon in its effectiveness.'' In a period 36 ho urs after the aer ial spraying operations on Saturday evening, it was found that 72 percent of Culex tarsalis mosquitoes were killed and 83 percent of another species (Aedes) were killed.

In a period 24 hours after the spraying operations on Sun day morning, it was found that 83 percent of Culex tarsalis mosqui toes were killed and 95 percent of the Aedes were killed. I would like to say that although no human cases of the disease has been confirmed there are 70 cases und er in vest igation. To giv e the statement some perspective, I would emphasize that in 1981 there were 850 cases which were investigated of which 25 cases were confirmed to be Western Equine Encephalitis. Officials of my department have contacted the Heads of Emergency Departments in Winn ipeg hospitals and 4492

Monday, 25 July, 1983 in Steinbach, and these hospitals have ind icated no inc rease in their normal activity as a result of the spraying program. I would add, however, that two patients in Winn ipeg who felt that they had some adverse effects to the spra y were detained for observation. I am advised by officials of my department that viral activity continues to be identified in chicken flocks and this factor is being mon itored very closely. Based on this prelimina ry in for ma tion, I ha ve recommended that the aerial spraying program be continued in the areas identif ied at risk in the province. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Mini ster of Health for this statement on the incidence and the situation with respect to the public health emergency at the present time. We will continue to wait further reports from the Min ister and his colleagues on this situation as the battle against the danger continues. We're pleased to support the govern ment in its position at this point in time which calls for continuation of the spraying program while the danger exists. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a statement to make as well. Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement to the mem bers of the Legislature in order to update them on the Provincial Government monitoring efforts for the aerial spray program that has been put in place to combat a potential outbreak of Western Equine Encephalitis. Today's reports are prelimi nary in that a large part of the mo ni tori ng program includ es scientific and laboratory analyses that would take further time to complete. However, I can inform you that all test results to date are within antici pated parameters.

The specific data, of course, will have to be put in the context of the overall program. My colleagues have and will continue to provide you with more detailed information on areas within their own departments. Efforts to date include: All com mun ities with surface drinking water supplies on the list of com muni ties to be sprayed have been sampled. Post-spray samples have been taken in areas that have been sprayed. Spot samples of some natural surface waters have been taken in selected areas on a pre and post-spray basis. Backgrou nd vegetation samples have been taken in all affected communit ies.

Post-spray samples have been taken within one hour of the actual spray times. Tests are being refined for an anal ysis of the effectiveness of the various ways of preparing edible fruits and vegetables that have been exposed to the spray. Birds have been live-trapped before spraying. Caged birds have been exposed in spray areas. No ill effects 4493 have been observed. Information Centre calls are being monit ored, and follow-up is being taken on complaints regarding reported effects on birds. To date, no ill effects have been noted in that area either.

Tests on caged bees have been conducted, and my colleague, the Minister of Agricultur e, will be providing more detail. Droplet size, distribution and air monitoring tests have been conduc ted during actual spray periods will be continued throughout the program. Sentinel flocks are being expanded to test for sero­ conversion in chickens. Wild birds are being tested for viral activi ty. Tests have been conduc ted on the effectiveness of the spray. As reported earl ier, these indic ate a very good mosquito kill rate.

The Department of Health, as suggested, is working closely with the medical community and hospitals to monitor for any reported health effects. I also wish to advise you that the Monitoring Steering Commit tee that was announced to you on Friday is meeting today lo further review our monitoring efforts and to make recommendations. I also wish to take this opportunity to publicly thank all those in dividuals who have given much of their time over the past few d"'ys �o ensure that proper monitoring procedures are developed and implemented.

I am certain, and I speak behalf of all mem bers of the Legislature when I say that their hard work and their long hours are appreciated . Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I !hank the Minister for this further statement and just make the observation that he has taken several paragraphs to repeat parts of the statements that were contained in the first two statements, and a good deal of the information is not of an urgent nature, but of a long­ range nature describing things that are in place, upon which we v,ill receive reports perhaps six months from now.

I would think that un less there are any urgent new developments from the environmental side, that it wouldn' t be necessary, other than to send over the odd message, to take the time of question period for such a statement in future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a short statement to make. 1\/lr. Speaker, due to extensive spraying programs now 1. nder way for mosquito control, there has been a .�on cern about the effect of mala thio n on bee populations.

Monitoring is being condu cted by the Department of Agriculture in all areas where spraying is taking place. Results ind icate that where caged bees have been placed in the open, in the path of aerial spraying, 100 percent mortality occurred. Simi lar cages, where the insecticide was not sprayed, no mortality occurred.

Monday, 25 July, 1983 Prelimina ry reports from beekeepers, hives in sprayed areas ind icate high mortality rates. If beekeepers wish more information, the telephone number given by my colleague, the Mi nister of Government Services, 1-800- 362-3305 is available for them to cal l. Compensation will be available to beekeepers who experienced losses, but beekeepers should be aware that they should document as fully as they can all their losses. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Mini ster for the statement with respect to bees.

I appreciate that the honeybee is perhaps one of the more sensitive species of insects or life that is in difficulty when these spraying programs are undertaken. One can't help but also think that perhaps because the num ber is relatively small, in terms of the num bers of beekeepers involved, whether or not with some foresight and planni ng, that mortality could have been reduced. There are practices that can be unde rtaken that wou ld, in effect, close off the hives.

There would of course be some loss, but with the government's intentions expressed in advance, with the known effect of the spray on the ho neybee, I might cho ose to ask at a different occasion of the Min istry of Agricultur e whether or not such efforts could have and in deed should not have been undertaken. I suspect the Min ister at this point has no way of knowing what the cost of compensation may run to, but I suppose it's prudent upon us that we add that to the overall costs of entering into a program for public health reasons such as the one that we're presently in. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to file the report of the Attorney-General's Comm ittee on Impaired Drivi ng. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to table the Ann ual Report of the Fire Comm issioner's Office, for the calendar year ended December 31, 1982. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAK ER: Be fore Oral Qu estions I ha ve a stat ement to the Ho use.

On July 19 , 19 83, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition stood in his place to raise a point of order regarding words spoken in de bate by the Hono urable Mem ber for Radisson. Following the remarks of several honourable mem bers the matter was taken under advisement. I have studied the relevant issues of Hansard and have conside red carefully the words of the honourable mem bers.

The words of the Ho nourable Leader of th e Opposition in alleging the imputation of motives raised two additional questions: Firstly, the suggestion that the point of order was not raised at an early enough instance is not valid since the English translation did not appear in Hansard until it was distribu ted on the afternoon of July 19th. Second ly, is the wording appearing in Ha nsard an accurate translation of the remarks of the Honourable Member for Radisson?

Si nce the Honourable Member for Radisson makes no claim of inaccuracy we can accept that the words appearing in Hansard are an accurate representation of his remarks and that th ey, and the point of order. can be judged on the basis of the printed word.

The point revolves on the words of the Honourable Member for Radisson when he says, "We have to ensure that these lim ited rights are a part of an amendment to the Canadian Constitution in order that persons like the Leader of the Opposition do not, again, bring down upon us such setbacks as we had in 18 90 and 1916 in order that our rights are not dimini shed to privileges which oblige us to live in fear and conflict, nor that our rights be subject to the political moods of the day," and whether these words constitute the imputation of motive.

The Honourable Member for Radisson cannot be making a personal charge of actions taken by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in 18 90 or 1916 since the Honourable Leader of the Opposition was not a member of the governments of 18 90 or 1916 . The Honour able Mem ber fo r Rad isson is cl early referring to possi ble actions which may be taken in the future when he uses the word "again." He explicitly states this on July 15 th, and reiterates this explanation on July 19th. The allegation of some hypothetical action is both uns pecified and unsu bstantiated.

The cha rge of im putation of motiv es is more accurately stated in Beauchesne's Citation 316 (

e) which says a member may not "impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged to a member." Since the Honourable Member for Radisson does not ascribe any motive to persons that may have in the future, he cannot be imputing post motives. There is clearly a difference of opinion existing between two mem bers on a hypothetical matter, which should be debated in the normal manne r. The second matter referred to by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is merely a difference of opinion and I am unable to discern what point of order is being alleged.

I therefore conclude that no point of order exists for the Chair to decide. ORAL QUESTIONS Bilingual agreement - Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Leade r of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last, I believe it was, the Union of Municipalities issued a press release through its president, Mr. Dave Harms, with respect to the bilingual resolution which this government presently 4494

Monday, 25 July, 1983 has before the Legisla ture. In that statement, Mr. Speaker, the following words are used referring to the amendment being proposed by the NDP Government of Mani toba to

Section 23: "It is one of the most dangerous steps any govern ment has contempla ted under existing conditions and could leave a never healing scar on the citizens of Manitoba, regardless of their ethnic background and national ity." Mr. Speaker, I'm going to lay on the table of the House for the benefit of Members of the House who may not have received it, and for the press, a copy of that press release. My question to the First Minister, Mr.

Speaker, is this: That in view of the str ong stand tha t ha s been enu nciated by the President of the Un ion of Manitoba Munic ipalties, in view of the strong position which has been taken by the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Association asking for very su bstantive amendments to

Section 23, in view of the fact that there is growing concern in the total Manitoba community about this go vern ment's actions on this ma tte r, would the government not consider it advisable now to refer this whole mfltter to a comm ittee that would sit after prorogation of this House and report at the next Session of the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a repetition again of the questions which were posed in earlier days pert aining to holding over for an in terses sional comm ittee.

The Attorney-General has introduced a motion this past Friday, which I draw your attention to, dealing with the referral of this particular resolution to a commit tee of this Cham ber to receive briefs from the public, so that indeed there is a motion that is presently before you, Mr. Speaker, dealing with this very subject matter, to receive briefs from the public at this time. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I realize there may be an element of repetition on some of the questions, if not the answers, that we're getting on this point.

But in view of the fact that tha t repet ition is being occasioned, Sir, by the ferment that is growing and growing among the people of Manitoba about the dubi ous actions of this gove rnment, will the First Min ister not reconsider and appoint this matter of a proposed amendment to

Section 23 to the Statutory Orders and Regulations Commit tee and empower it to sit after recess, after prorog ation, during recess, and report to the next Session of the Legislature which could be as early as December of this year, realizing of course, Mr. Speaker, that the House of Commons, which must also pass this matter, will not even be sitting again until the 15 th of September of 19 83? Why is he so intransigent? HON. H. PAWLEY: I've already ind icated that there is a motion which was introduced on Friday that provides for the oppor tun it y for public input in sofar as a comm ittee of this Cham ber.

In addition to that, we've ha d four inf ormat ional meetings, in Thomps on. in Dauphin, in Brandon and in Winnip eg with varied reaction, I must say - not fervent, but with varied reaction to the resolution. The motion pertaining to a legislative commit tee will provide further opportunity for public input and I, for one, look forward to that motion proceeding through this Cham ber, so there can be further receipt of public input. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, another question to the First Minis ter with respect to the same subject matter.

In view of the fact that there is growing sugg estion among municipalities, and ind eed perhaps some of the citi es of Ma nitoba, tha t th ey would like to avail themsel ves of the amendment which this government is putting through to The Muni cipal Act to permit referenda to be held on matters which do not fall within the jurisdiction of the municipalties or cities, will the Government of Manitoba be supportive of tho se mun icipa li tie s which wish to pl ace as an item of referendum before their electors this fall the question as to whether or not

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act should be amende d in the man ner in whic h thi s government is proposi ng? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter that pertains to the decision-making of each and every municipal council. It's not a question of support or non­ support, but a matter that involves the discretion ary­ making that is involved in respect tJ reeve and members of council in each given municipal ity. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, reverting to the First Min ister's response to the second-last question, is he aware of the fact that there are now some 30 people waiting, 30 delegations waiting to give representations on the seat belt legislation alone and tha t other contentious pieces of legislation, The Law Enforcement Review Act, to name only one, still have to pass through the commit tee stage; that this Legislature is going to be engrossed in its present timetable in dealing with legislation that this government has, in some cases negligently , brought before the House during the last week or two of this sitting?

Will he not reconsider his stand about referring

Section 23 to an intersessional commit tee in light of the fact that this House, Mr. Speaker, is going to be fully engaged in doing the regular business of the people of Manitoba without becoming engaged on the constitutional amendment which can be dealt with equal facility after prorogation? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know that which is regula r and that which is irregular. Certainly the res olutio n tha t we'r e dealing with in respect to constitutional matters, whether it be the aboriginal issue or whether it be the French language issue, is important matter by way of resolution.

The fact that there may or may not be some 30 waiting to present briefs in rc;pect to the seat belt-helmet legislation, I think, is jicative of the health of the democratic process, that there is adequa te interest. In fact, I would have thought there might even be more than that, Mr. Speaker, but that is a reasonable indication of public interest. I expect tha t the re'll be furthe r briefs in respect to other measures that have been introduc ed in this Cham ber. Rather than shying away, Mr.

Speaker, we're prepared to carry on to do the business of this Chamber in the proper and in the usual format and to complete - not to leave incom plete - the business of this Chamber. 4495

Monday, 25 July, 1983 HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the First Minister's new found concern for the health of the democratic process, would he not agree, Mr. Speaker (In terjection) Mr. Speaker, I see no question of "shame" at all. If the First Mini ster is really concerned about the health of the democratic process, he would follow suggestions that are coming to him by the dozens from all parts of Manitoba. He would listen to public opinion in Manitoba as he adjures the Prime Mini ster of Canada to listen to public opinion on nuclear disarmament and the Cruise.

If he is so conc erned about the health of the democratic process, will he then agree that this matter, the first constitutional substantive amendment that this House has ever dealt wit h, should be put over until after this Session has prorogued in order that the people of Manitoba may truly tell this government what they think about that amendment? MR. SPEAK ER: Order ple ase. The ho nourable member's line of questioning is becoming somewhat repetitious. HON. S. LYON: And it will continue, don't worry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health on a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I think the record should show that the Leader of the Opposition is constantly repeating the same question. In the gui se of asking questions, he is making a speech. This is not the time to debate it. I am very much anxious to debate this with my honourable friend. Furthermore, he is saying that when you suggest that this was repetitious, that he'll do it again; he'll do it tomorrow and the next day and so on. I don't think that should be allo wed, that one person should be allowed to act like a little dictator in this House, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: On the point of order, if indeed there was one, Mr. Speaker, I fou nd that my questions today which are allegedly repetitious, upon a news statement issued by the Union of Municipalities representing all of the elected officials of Manitoba at the municipal level, which statement was given out on Friday at 11: 00 a.m., that was the founda tion and the basis for my renewed question today. Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend may get his jollies out of referring to those on this side of the House or, indeed, any legitimate citizens of Manitoba as being a luna tic. Mr. Speaker, we are not luna tics when we are asking that the people be heard and ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. No member had a point of order in that exchange. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the HON. S. LYON: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. There was a point of order, or wasn't there? MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Leader of the Opposition state his point? HON.

S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. Boni face presumed to raise a point of order and I spoke to it. Have you any comment on it, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. There is no point of order before the House. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Health. - (I nterjection) - The Speaker just ruled and recogni zed me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry has the floor. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Western Equine Encephalitis MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's difficult to get the floor these days. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Mi nister of Health, and I would ask him whether there have been any cases of Western Equine Encephalitis reported among the horse population in the province to date? His statements today did not refer to that population. HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker, there are no reported cases. Mosquito fogging MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Government Services.

In noting the targets that he cited for the current and next round of aerial spraying, I would ask him whether, as reported in some of the media, communi ties like Gimli and the Lake Winnipeg Beach resorts are included in tha t program? I no tice the y are not mentioned in his statement, but they are reported by some of the media to be imminent target sites. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, according to the information we have from the Department of Health, they are designated as hig her-risk areas and have been listed previously in our statements earlier, I believe on Saturday at a news conference. I have not mentioned them today simply because I have given an update for the spraying that will take place tonight and tomorrow morning. From then on, we will give further updates, but they are included. 4496

Monday, 25 July, 1983 Bilingualism - proposed resolution MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. OOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Min ister and ask him whether he can confirm that the Comm ittee on Privileges and Elections, which has been given the task of hearing briefs on the bilin gual resol ution, must report at this Session of the Legislature, name ly, the next two to four weeks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: In giving the Member for Elmwood all due credit for probably missing on Friday - the reso lution ha s been tabled, and the Mem ber for Elmwood, upon referral, will find !hat the resolution deals with that question. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, the question was based on the fact that I thought the im pression was created that that commit tee might meet after the Session; and that's why I ask the question, because it's the next couple of weeks, in fact, that that comm ittee must report. My second question is this, Mr. Speaker: In view of the im portance . . . HON. R.

PENNER: Do you know how long the Sessions last? MR. R. DOERN: Yes, I've been here 17 years; lon ger than you have. Mr. Speaker, I would like to then direct this question to the Attorney-General and ask him why, since the government feels a resolution on bilingua lism is so im portant, how is it official bilingua lism? Why is it that the government has not called that resolution since July 18 th? When is that resolution going to be called next?

Are we expected to debate that resolution at the end of the Session until three in the morning, or are we going to have an opportun ity to speak on it now so that we can have some decent debate and not ram it through at the end when everybody's tired? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: The government has been calling busine ss in consultation with the opposition in a measured way, and will be calling this resolution and other constitutional resol utions now in terms of the sche duling of the House, which will be unfo lding from today forward once we've dealt with the so-called Speed-up Resolution. There is no problem. I know that the Member for Elmwood has been straining at the leash, and I can assure him that the leash will be unsevered and he can rise to his feet and bark away very short ly. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to say, on a matter of privilege, I resent that type of smart-ass comment that's coming from the Attorney-General about barking dogs and leashes. I want to now put a specific question to him: When is he calling this resolution? There are mem bers in this House who have been prepared to speak for weeks, and I would like a specific indic ation of what day that resolution will be called. HON. R. PENNER: Sho rtly. North of Portage - development MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minis ter.

Following along questions I asked him last Frid ay, I would like, Mr. Speaker, the Premier to ind icate how he and the government approve in principle a plan to reroute Portage Avenue without knowing the details of the plan, without having an estimate of the costs of rerouting Portage Avenue, without having yet received the report from the North Portage Task Force. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that question was dealt with at some length ;-.,y the Min ister of Urban Affairs on Frid ay. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, that question was not dealt with.

That question in fact is unans werable and undefensible by the First Minister. Government polls MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago the First Min ister took as notice some questions from me with respect to government polls. He unde rtook to provide details of government polls and the costs of same. Does he have that information now? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll be putting together that information, we'll be providing it to the Cham ber. Bilingualism in Manitoba MR. G. MERCIER: A suppleme ntary question to the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker.

Has he, or his officials, completed their analysis of the government poll with respect to bilingua lism? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: No, it hasn't been completed. expect it will be before the end of this week. Pension reform legislation MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one further question to the Minis ter of Labour. The Min ister of Labour un dertook to provi de me with a copy of the recommendations from the Pension Commission. She has now tabled The Pension Benefits Act.

I would ask her if she's prepared to provide us with a copy of the rec ommenda tions from the Ma nitoba Pension 4497

Monday, 25 July, 1983 Commission subsequent to the public hearings which they held? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: It's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the Pension Commission made that report public. I will check on that and see but I believe that their recommendations to the government were made public sometime after they came to us. I'll un dertake to verify that and let the member know. MR. G. MERCIER : Mr.

Speake r, the Pension Commission did make a series of recommendations public, and then held public hearings, and the Min ister of Labour un dertook to provide tho se further recommendations to us. Those are what we would like to have, and require to have, in order to debate the bill which she's tabled. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I understand what the member is talking about.

He's talking about the recommen da tions following the public heari ngs, following the Green Paper, which is what was discussed at public heari ngs, and tha t is the group of recom menda tions that, I believe, the Pension Commission made public sometime after they gave it to the government. They normally wait a certain period of time and then make their recommendations public. I will ascertain whether that happened and have an answer for the member tomorro w. Hay-cutting rights MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, last week the Member for LaVerendrye asked a question in the House in respect to the cutting of hay for forage in the Red Ri ver flood way. The Honour able Mi ni ster of Co­ operatives and Consumer and Corporate Affairs took that question as notice on my behalf. I want to advise the House that the department has under consideration the reservation of some areas of the flood way, particularly in the lower slopes, or the low flow channel with a view to consideration whether or not it's possible to develop suitable habitat for wild fowl.

However, in view of the difficult hay and forage conditions in the Red River Valley this year, we are not going to proceed with the reservation of those blocks, but we ar e going to de velop a suitable plan for consideration for next year, all other things being equal. Moose hunting HON. A. MACKLING: While I have the flo or, Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to answer the concerns of the Honourable Member for Minn edosa in respect to a season , in respect to big game.

He was concerned about whether or not there was accuracy in a notice he had about advertising of a special moose season, and had indic ated that perhaps the date was incorrectly ind icated on the material he had . Mr. Speaker, the season was a special season for moose and the closing date was July 8th. The special season applicability was well advertised in both the Winnip eg Free Press, the Brandon Sun, and the Flin Flon Remind er, on June 18 th, June 24th, June 18 th to 23rd, and June 22nd. McKenzie Seeds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds. Several weeks ago I raised a question, in the House, about a possible conflic t-of-in terest situation involving Mr. Moore, the Chief Executive Officer of McKenzie Seeds, as well as other senior officers at McKenzie Seeds. Can the Minis ter advise the House, at this time, whether or not there ha ve been any fur ther developments with respect to that situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There have been some further developments.

I have received an interim report from the Provincial Audito r with respect to that particular circumstance. The board of McKenzie Seeds has, as well, received that report. They had a meeting on Friday, and they are current ly, this afternoon I believe, having some further discussions with the people involved as well as lawyers on both sides. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Provincial Auditor is, of course, an employee, a servant of the Legislature, can the Min ister of Financ e advise when information provided by the Provincial Auditor will be made available to members of the Legislature? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ziprick and I had discussions with respect to that matter and it was agreed that it would be most convenient if that report would be made available when the final report comes down. He has ind icated to me that he expects that it could take some time.

There will be some interim action taken which, I expect, will be made public within the next several days, and I would appreciate the co­ operation of the opposition in waiting for a couple of days until the decisions arrived at, by the board on Friday, can be comple ted and at that time there may be further activity which we would be prepared to discuss. Brandon University - senate MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Education. Has the Minister of Education yet been able to determine who is the govern ment's appoin tee to the senate of Brandon University? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, there is, what I would call, a pro forma designation. The Deputy Min ister is 4498

Monday, 25 Ju ly, 1983 the designa te to the senate. It is pro !orma, the Deputy is also the designa te to the other Un iversity senates. He does not act as a mem ber of the senate; he does not attend senate meetings; he does not commun icate with the senate on decisions that they are making. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplemen tary to the Min ister of Education. Why does the gover nment have a designa te to the senate of Brandon Un iversity, if that person doesn't attend the meetings of the senate? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Actuall y, Mr.

Speaker, I think that the Member for Turtle Mountain has raised a good question, that he might - and I'm sure is aware that it is handled the same way as it was when they were in government. The Deputy Minister was the designate. So what we're talking about is something that has gone on for a number of years and, as sometimes happens, the reasons that were originally there may no longe r be the case.

I must say, having thought about this since the Member for Turtle Moun tain raised it, and realizing that the Deputy does not act as a member of the senate, does not attend senate meetings, that it does seem to raise the question of why bother, and we're going to look at it. Bilingual agreement - Union of Manitoba Mu nicipalities MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a further question flowing from the press release from the Uni on of Manitoba Muni cipalities tabled by the Leader of the Opposition earlier this afternoon, for the Mini ster of Agricu lture. Mr.

Speaker, on the second page of this press release, reference is made to, and I'll read the full sentence because I'm not sure if the Min ister has had an opportunity to read the press release at this point: The claim that the proposed program is not like the federal bilingualism program and is not creating a bilingua l province is unfounded, with evidence of action already taken by the Provincial Government, as stated in the press by the Deput y Mi nis ter of Agricu lture, th at agriculture representatives hired now will have to be bilingual, as well as the issuance of this year's driver's licences, etc.

I am wondering if the Min ister can either confirm or deny this allegation in this press release that there has been a change in departmental policy and that all ag reps must now be bilin gual. Is that the case? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, certainly there's been no change in departmental poli cy. In fact, it should be noted that there are over 40 staff people within our department who have bilingu al capabili ties in our department, and that no change in the policy occurs.

When vacancies will occur, those positions which have been designa ted as requiring bilingual positions, they will be encouraged and they will be filled on that basis. 4499 But there is no move to change the policy that was put into place by the former admin istration. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, a further question on the same press release for the First Minis ter. Similarly on Page 2 of the same press release and, Mr. Speaker, if I may have your indul gence, I'll again read the sentence because I'm not sure if the First Min ister has had a chance to review the press release.

The first sentence in Paragraph 2 reads as foll ows: As already pointed out previous ly,

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act should be left intact and, if amended at all, it should be amended to include The 18 90 Manitoba Provincial Lang uages Act that has formed and shape d our province into what it is today over the last 93 years. Mr. Speaker, I believe the reference was not correct. I believe it should have been to The Manitoba Official Langua ges Act of 18 90 as it was then called. My question for the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, is: In view of the fact that the Supreme Court of Canada has decl ared The Official Langua ges Act of 18 90 to be ultra vires, is the First Minister of this province seriously going to consider a return to that statute by virtue of a constitutional amendment, as is being recommended by the Uni on of Manitoba Munic ipalities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, no, and I'm certainly disappointed that such a recommendation would have been made from an organization that I have the greatest respect for. Income tax refunds MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Mini ster of Finance, and would ask him: In view of the fact that thousands of Manitobans have not yet received their income tax refunds, even though many filed sometime in February; and since a lot of the members of the Legislature are receiving many calls daily from constituents who are very anno yed and very angry, and I may say are very anxious to receive these funds and req ui re th ese funds to meet ce rtain commitments that they have made, I wonder if the Minis ter of Finance would consider using his good offices to contact his federal cou nterpart and see if something cannot be done to speed this process up.

More im portantly, if we're too far down the tube with regard to this year, is there some mechanism that can be brought into place so this can be processed a lot quicker next year? I would ask the Mini ster if he could r. >t use his good office cind contact the Federal Minister and see if this cou ldn't be speeded up somewhat? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Fina nce. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe that's an excellent suggestion. I have asked my department already to check to see what is the del ay. The proposal made by the honourable mem ber seems qui te reasonable.

I don't think that it's acceptable to

Monday, 25 July, 1983 Manitobans to have this kind of delay year in and year out. This year, I unde rst and the y did ha ve some problems in terms of some statute law that came into place during the time when the returns were being processed . But it is frustrating for many who legitima tely expect that when they have prepaid and overpaid their taxes, that the government ought to be prompt in repaying the amount that is owing to the tax payer. MR. R. BANMAN: I appreciate any effort that the Minis ter can take to try and help these people who require those cheques to carry on their daily business.

Judg e Jewers' report on Lotteries MR. R. BANMAN: I would ask a further question to the Minis ter in charge of lotteries, and would ask him whether or not he is contemplating holding any public meetings or public hearings with regard to Judge Jewers' report and the possible policies which the government is going to be implementing with regard to that report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: There certainly will be meetings held. It'll be mostly when the new policy is annou nced. I wouldn't say that there will be general meetings as such.

There will be meetings with different groups affected, indi vidual ly. I think this will be more condu cive to better organization of the whole system. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minis ter. Sin ce Judge Jewers stated in his report and I quo te, "O bviously, any changes can and should only be made after the fullest consultation with all of the parties involv ed," can the Mini ster assure the House that before the government imple ments any policie s, all groups involved will be asked to participate in discussions, realizing, of course, that there are certain changes that will flow from that?

But I guess my concern would be that the participation by all members that will be affected is inde ed part of the process which the government will be undertaking. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, as I stated, there certainly will be meetings - many meetings. To confirm or to gu aran tee th at ther e will be meet ings with everybody affected would be im possi ble, because everybody in Manitoba will be affected by the lottery and by the report. Construction ind ustry - funds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, a week has passed since members of the government met with representativ es of the heavy construction indus try that is facing extremely high unemployment. It was ind icated to the House at that time that active consideration was giv en by the Chairman of the Jobs Fund, as well as the Minister of Transportat ion, that some additional construction projects may be in the offing. Could either the Min ister of Transportation and/ or the Chairman of the Manitoba Jobs Fund ind icate to the House whether the government has made any decision to free up some additional funds? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we had a meeting with the representati ves of the heavy construction ind ustry Friday afternoon. There will be some announc ements flowing from tha t meeti ng which will be of some assistance, but I want to, in all candidne ss, point out that the announc ement may indeed not be adequate nor to deal with their overall difficulties, but there will be an announc ement that will provide some degree of assistance. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, allow me to correct an error on my part.

The words that I meant to use, of course, are some "restorat ion of the funds" that were taken away from the Highway budget that could be considered under these circumstances. But the urgency of the question and I ask that to the Minis ter, and particularly to the Min ister of Labour as well, who must recognize that many of these construction workers are going to have difficulty in getting their necessary weeks in tha t wou ld enable them to benefit from Unemployment Insurance benefits when the normal time for layoff comes up unless some projects are scheduled immedia tely. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it's for that very reason that some few weeks ago we provided to the City of Winnip eg $3.2 mill ion which the City of Winnip eg was able to match for a total of $6.4 mill ion for street repair work within the City of Winnip eg. It's for that reason, Mr. Speaker, that we've increased the sewer and water allocation insofar as rural southern communities are concerned by some 50 percent. It's for that reason also that we've held the meeting on Friday afternoon to ascertain what further steps we could undertake.

We're qu ite mi ndful of the difficulti es tha t are confronting many within the construction indu stry as well as those emplo yed within that indus try, and we are presently assessing what we can do in order to help that particular segment of the indus try. Baton twirlers - St. Boniface MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Min ister of Fitness and Amateur Sport.

Recently at a national competition of baton twirlers in Eastern Canada there were eight young ladies from Manitoba who won the right to represent Canada at an international competition in Italy. It consisted of a team of seven from the St. Bonif ace area and an indi vidual who did win the right to represent Canada. I was wondering whether the Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sports will advise whether there will be any funding for these young ladie s to go over to Italy to represent Manitoba and Canada. 4500

Monday, 25 July, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot inform the members of this House. If there has been a request for such funding, it would have to be looked at. I think it would not be proper at this time to make a statement. I think that we'll have to see if we have any programs, and if so, it could be considered; if not, unfortu nately that can't be done. We must remem ber, Mr.

Speaker, that there are many ath letes that are travelling outside of Manitoba that are competing, and it's impossible to fund all of these, so there has to be - with the lim ited fund that we have - certain rules, and we'd have to check to see if they apply. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, a supplemental question to the Min ister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. I was wondering whether in fact he would take it on hi mself, considering that these young ladies are from St. Bon iface and we have a special feeling, both he and I, to people who do represent St.

Bon iface, to see whether there was any funding through his department, or whether in fact we could get some funding for these young ladies through eit her the Department of Cultural Affairs or the Department of Tourism - almost anything - if it do esn 't come un der the ausp ic es of the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, this is a very tempting sugges tion.

I think the honourable member would be the first one to take me to task if, for instance, that I give any privilege or if we did any more for people of our own constituenc y, so I think maybe we should forget that he made that sugges tion. Regional Services Branch appointment MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Min ister of Education. Currently her department is in the final stages, as I understand, in the process of appointing a person to the position of Director of Regional Services Branch.

I wonder if she can give the many applicant s, who have put forth applications for the position, the assurance that the sele ction process will follow clo sely the requirements of the position as advertised and will not circumvent the normal process to simply confirm a predetermined applicant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I certainly can confirm that to all of the people who have applied for the position of Director of Regional Services, that is, that they will follow the selection process.

They will follow all of the normal procedures and they will follow the criteria that was established for the position and upon which the people that applied for the job and upon which the board is making the selection. I'm hoping that the announc ement will be made very soon and it will be based on all of those requirements. MR. G. FILMON: Can the Min is ter confirm that applicants who had not submitted applications were 4501 solicit ed and sought out after the interview process and asked to come to the de partment unde r special considerati on, even though they had not applied for the position? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY SPEED-UP MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Finance: THAT for the remainder of the Session the House have leave to sit in the forenoon from 10 :00 a.m. to 12 :30 p.m., in the afternoon from 2:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m .. in the evening from 8:00 p.m., and each sitting to be a separate sitting and have leave so to sit from Mond ay to Saturd ay, both days inc lusive, and the rules with respect to 10 :00 p.m. adjournment to be suspended and government business to take precedence over all other business of the House; AND THAT for the remain der of the Session, the operation of Sub-rule (3) cf Rule 88 of The Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceed ings of the House be suspended, but the report stage of any bill should not be taken into consideration prior to 24 hours following the presentation of the report of the standing or special committee with respect thereto.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. FI. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, this is the resolution normally referred to somewhat colloquially as Speed­ up. I would like to stress, first of all, that this motion is being moved by agreement between both sides of the House. It is being moved in an attempt, we hope - I think we all hope - a successful attempt to deal with the balance of the business on the Order Paper in a reasonable way. I'd like to stress, and I think all members would agree with me, that there's no magic in Speed-up.

Indeed, Speed-up, if improperly used, we all know can lead to what the First Minis ter has called "a government by exhaustion ." Speed-up, in fact, the effective use of the re>olution which is here placed on the Order Paper wid which I am now moving and which indeed has been moved for I believe every Session back for 10, 12, perhaps more years, depends on co-opera tion. For example, the Leader of the Opposition pointed out today during question period that there are a substantial nu mber of pers ons waiting to make submissions, public submissions to one or another of the comm ittees.

Normal ly, committ ees are called to meet when the House is in Session on a consensual basis. My hope is - I don't think I'll be disappointed

Monday, 25 July, 1983 in this - that as was the case last year, there will be no problem in sche duling comm ittees so that we can keep the Sessions of the House and of the commi ttees, which now have very substantial business on referral, meeting in a reasoned balance. That I thin k can be done and must be done by day-to-day conferencing between the Go ver nme nt Ho us e Leader and the Opposition House Leader. I would like also to stress, Mr.

Speaker, and this is agreed to, that there is no relationship between this process as encom passed in the motion before you, and differences of opinion which obviously exist on the timing of debate with respect to Bills 3, 48 and 95 and the go vern ment resol ution on the constitutional amendment to

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. There is no relationship between those differences which will be debated and this motion which is now before you.

I have no other remarks to make, other than to stress that it's a consensual motion, as I believe it should be, if it is used at all, and that we come to it in the hope and, indeed, I think those expectat ions will not be dashed, that it can be used reasonably by reasonable people to keep the business of the House going in good balance to bring it to an early conclusion without at any time trampling on the rights of those citizens who want to ma ke represen tations to comm it tees or trampling on the rights of mem bers of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I want to offer a few comment s with respect to this res olution. The Ho nourable Att orn ey-G en eral sugg ests tha t this resolution is before the House by agreement between the government and the opposition. Mr.

Speaker, this is probably the first time in the hi story of the Leg islatur e, I think, tha t repea ted suggestions and requests for Speed-up have been made by the opposition to the government to bring it in to deal with the business of the House; as New Democratic Party Go vernment s in the past, Progr essiv e Conservative Governments in the past, probably Liberal Governments in the past a long while ago, using this motion, as every government has in the past, to wind­ up the business of the House. It can be done, as we all kno w, in a very reasonable man ner.

It is required, however, to expedite the business of the House. Mr. Speaker, the Estimates ended in the middle of June. It is now July 25th when the motion for Speed-up has been introduced. The motion for Speed-up should have been int roduced a long time ago, a very long time ago, Mr. Speaker. We find ourselves now meeting, Mr.

Speaker, on the 25th of July with an Order Paper some 16 pages long; with significant matters left on the Order Paper; with a large number of com mittee meetings which have to be held to hear the views of the citi zens of Manitoba in the middle of one of the warmest summers that Manitobans have enjoyed for some time. Mr. Speaker, you only have to go to one of these commit tee meetings in the morning or the evening as they've been held, to realize what an unc omfortable situation that is for indi viduals who are being called upon to comment on bills before comm ittees. It is certain ly, Mr.

Speaker, not something that we should be particularly proud of, to call upon Manitobans at thi s time of the year and und er these conditions to come before a comm ittee. I know, Mr. Speaker, that we did it in 1980 and that will certainly be the suggestion from members opposite. I want to point out to them, Mr. Speaker, tho se who were here at the time will recall how critical they were of our government going into July in 19 80, and I accept that criticism; but having made that criticism, why are we here on July 25th and why are we going to be here until the end of August or into September, Mr. Speaker?

They established a set of criteria when they critic ized us in 19 80 and they have failed to deliver, Mr. Speaker. They failed to deliver in a much more significant way, because more than likely we will be here all summer and into September, unless the government takes some action to withdraw some of the matters before this Legislature. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the government and I don't want to put the entire blame on the Government House Leader, because I don't know what went on in Cabinet when they decided when we met prior to Christmas when the House was going to resume debate, but somebody made the decision not to come back until February 24th, well over two months from when the debate on the Speech from the Throne ended. I consider that was a wrong decision; we voted against that decision at that particular time, and that is one very signi ficant reason why we are here at the end of July. Mr.

Speaker, un less we can, on this side, support as we do the motion for Speed-up - we have, in fact, I think asked for it to be brought forward. We think it can be dealt with, handled in a reasonable manner so tha t people will continue to be able to make representations with respect to the matters before comm ittees, and the public will not be unduly, we hope, inconvenienced; but the government is going to have to conside r, if they want this Session to end some time before the end of August or the end of September, what they are going to do with Bill No. 3. I raise, Mr.

Speaker, the Charter of Rights argument with respect to that bill that the Min ister of Agriculture, when he spoke on second reading, rejected; but the association which the Attorney-General is funding, the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties, have now made a strong argument with respect to the validity of that bill under the Charter of Rights. The government, I think with that kind of argument ha ving been made, Mr. Speake r, should seriously reconsider Bill No. 3 and whether they should proceed with it. I think they should withdraw it and have that bill examined by independent legisla tive counsel, Mr.

Speaker, because there are very serious consititutional concerns about that bill. That would go a little way, Mr. Speaker, towards speeding up this Session of the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, they should seriously contempla te The Election Fina nces Act, because we are going to debate that bill for a long time. We're not going to allow, Mr. Speaker, the taxpayers of Manitoba to have another burden cast upon their shoul ders, as the government is sugges ting, that the taxpayer pay 50 percent of their election expenses. Mr.

Speaker, Bill No. 95, The Pension Benefits Act, is a very compli cated matter to be introduced at what 4502

Monday, 25 July, 1983 the government may feel is the end of the Session; but that requires a lot of consideration by members on this side, by members of the public, by the indus try, and the go vernment should ser iously contemp la te withdrawing that bill, deferring it until the end of the Session. I remind the Government House Leader, I believe it was in the 1980 Session, close to the end, we introduced a brand new Bui lders' Lien Act, which was a very compli cated matter. We tabled it and held it over till the next Session of the Legislature.

In view of the complexity of this particular bill, I would sugge st the government should conside r taking the same sort of action. Last, but not least, Mr. Speaker, as we've argued for a good number of days, we believe the legisla tive comm ittee with respect to bilingualism should sit after the end of this Session and report to the next Session of the Legislature, which can be, Mr. Speaker, solely at the government's choosing and as early as they wish in the fall. The House of Commons is not sitting until the middle of September. They can't deal with it.

So it is not going to delay anything if that comm ittee were appoint ed to sit intersessional ly, Mr. Speaker. If the government would take those steps, Mr. Speaker, this Hous e could end much much earlie r than it will otherwise. Mr. Speaker, reminded of another argument that the First Minis ter has made all during the months that this Legislature has sat, that une mployment is the bigge st problem in the minds of the government in this province, and it is in our minds and we have certain solutions. I wish the government had some solutions, Mr. Speaker, to encourage the private sector.

I ask the members of the government, sitting here in this Legislature at the end of July, virtuall y their full attention going to be required to the business of the Legislature that we've referred to, how are they going to deal with the problem of une mployment, which they regard as the most serious problem in this province, when they're going to be sitting in this Legislature for a long long time yet, unle ss they take some of the action that I have sugge sted to them, Mr. Speaker? In summar y, Mr. Speaker, we can support, as we have requested, the Speed-up Motion.

We think it can be handled in a reason able way, but it's going to take a lot more action on the part of the government before this Legislature ends, if it is indeed going to end before the end of August. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose the Speed-up Motion in one particula r section. I have done this before, and I have always been totally opposed to the concept of the past 10 :00 p.m. or past midnight sessions.

During the normal year, it seems to me adequate to meet for an afternoon and evening session, but in Speed-up to have three sessions a day, the morning one at 10 :00, then an afternoon session and an evening session, and to have people staggering out of the Cham ber late at nigh t or in the early morning and then att empting to properly de bate crucial legislation, it seems to me is not a good idea. Now, I am now looking at this adjournment. I have to ask for clarification here, Mr. Speaker; but I simply say this - that three sessions a day is too long, especially when you have a late night session.

I, too, like the Member for St. Norbert, am worried about the fact that there is a lot of crucial legislation that may get debated on weekends or in the evening or after an exhaus ting session. We ha ve some of the mo st important legislation to ever come before this Assembly in the bilingual debate, and a lot of people are interested m the seat belt item. I think that to talk about grinding this through, Mr. Speaker, is something that all of us should be concerned about.

I listened to the Attorney-General on one occasion, or saw his quote in the newspaper that when the hearings on the bilingua l question came up, he was prepared to have those hearings go until one or two or three o'clock in the morning. Mr. Speaker, we know why that particula r approach is being taken. We know that there is always the hope on the part of government to exhaust the public, to make them lose interest and encourage them to go home.

Simila rly, when it comes to debate in the House, the idea is that it is rather by physical attrition and exhaustion over a prolonged period of time that members will grow weary of the debate and throw in the towel and head for the beaches like everybody else. Mr. Speaker, I've been here a long time, and I have seen debates go until 5:20 in the morning and 4:30 in the morning, and 3:20 in the morning and 2: 10 in the morning and so on. Then members are expected to reappear at 10:00 in the morning in good nature, with clear minds, and willing to tackle the business of the public.

It just strikes me that that is a very poor approach to attempting to get good legislation. The other complaint I make, I've made before, namely, tha t this building is not air-cond itioned; it's very unc omfortable here in the summe rtime. This Cham ber is uncomfortable right now, and the civil servants who work in this building, several hundr ed, three or four hund red, have to suffer through this heat . It's great if you're outdoors, but painful if you're ind oors. So I simply say, Mr.

Speaker, that I don't object to three-times-a-day sittings, but I do object to long, late night sittings and Saturday sittings, and public sessions in which the public, which is perplexed and puzzled enough by the procedures of comm ittees, has to come and sit around for end less hours in committee waiting to be heard. I think that given those facts, the Speed­ up Resolution should not contain a late night provision. I also think, in view of some of the heavy legislation in terms of its importance to Manitobans, that we should n't be in any rush, particularly on the biling ual question.

I think that should be pulled and that should be held later on. The Leader of the Opposition made that point today, and others have made it and I have rnade it, and I think tha t there is no need to have a .blic commit tee now, a commit tee to hear the public on this question and ram it through this Session. If we're going to debate somet hing that's an amendment to the Constitution of this province, we should take a lot of time; we should look for a consensus across the province before we proceed. We will not get that if the govern ment rams that through in the next couple of weeks.

QUESTION put, MOTION carried, on division. 4503

Monday, 25 July, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Would you please call the resolution int roduced in my name, as it stands on Page 10, with respect to the referral of the amendment to

Section 23 to the Standing Comm ittee on Privi leges and Elections? MR. SPEAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General ... MR. G. MERCIER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norbert on a point of order. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Gov ernment Ho us e Leader indi cate when he pro poses the Speed-u p Resolution to take effect? As of right now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R.

PENNER: I took the wording of the reso lution literal ly, although some people think that perhaps it shou ldn't be - "R ESOLVED THAT for the remainder of the Session" - I took it that, when passed, it took effect. MR. G. MERCIER: Just to clarif y my question, Mr. Speak er, to the Gov ernment Ho use Leader , tha t sometimes in the past, the Government House Leader has chosen to bring the Speed-up Resolution into effect a day later or two days later; but if it's in effect now, that clarifies the situation. COM MITTEE CHANGE HON. R.

PENNER: Just on that, I did talk to the Opposition House Leader, and that wasn't necessary since, by leave, the comm ittees are as scheduled, and I'll be making a brief announc ement about a commi ttee change. Perhaps I can make that now. The commit tees as scheduled for today and tomorrow will meet as scheduled, and then the Opposition House Leader and I will have a chance to meet on the other commi ttee meetings. Just on that point, Mr. Speaker, The Law Enforcement Review Act Bill and The Police Act Bill stand referred to Law Amendments, and there are a large number of delegat ions that are appearing ton ight.

I would move, by leave, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Min es, that the bills stand referred to the Standing Commi ttee on Indu strial Relations. That is, it will continue to meet at the same time, same place, but a smaller commit tee. This will give an opportunity between now and 5:30 for anyone on our side or the other side to make any comm ittee changes they see fit to accommodate that change. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBA TE ON RESOL UTION CONS TITUTIONAL AMEND MENT RE: OFFICIAL LANGUAGES MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed resolution of the Honourable Attorney-General, standing on Page 10 of the Order Paper, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, the resolution in the name of the Honourable Attorney-General, before us at the present time, places in my view, Sir, a very heavy and unde sirable burden on the people of Manitoba because of the time constraints contained within the wording of the resolution and within the ambitions of the Attorney-General and his colleagues on this point.

I would enter the debate at this juncture, Sir, to appeal to the Attorne y-General to consider the reasonable req uest tha t ha s been made by a numb er of commenta tors, including most prominently my leader, for intersessional study of this very important resolution. The resolution itself, as it appears before us at the present time, calling upon the comm ittee in question to report to the Assembly at this Session of the Legislature, injects in my view, Sir, an element of discoloration and discord into what is a very historic and crucially important

chapter in Manitoba's histo ry. It's an element of discoloration and discord that I believe can be avoided, and that I sinc erely bel ieve the Attorney-General, given the opportu nity, would like to avoid. I think the Attorney-General should be considering the judgment of history on this point, and I think that he is a person with whom issues can be discussed in the context of the historical perspective, the judgment of hi story.

I think if there is one thing he would have to admit he has wit nessed in the various public information meetings that have been held on this proposed amendment to Manitoba's Constitution so far, it would be that there is genuine disagreement over the course being proposed by the government. I'm not arguing that a clear consensus has emerged, either at those public meetings, or in any of the debate and discussion on the subject that has been held inside or outside this Chamber up to this point in time. I'm proposing rather to the Attorney-General the precise opposite.

I'm proposing that a clear consensus has not emerged, Sir. I'm proposing that the one clear discovery at this point is that there is genuine and sinc erely held and profoundly held disagr eement over the course of action, which the government is proposing in the resolution that would amend our provincial constitution.

As a consequenc e of that, Sir, I firmly believe that it not only would serve the best interests of Manitobans, which must be paramount here, but serve the best interests of the conduct of the affairs of this Legislature, which is a very important matter when considering the public interest, but also serve the best interests of the Attorney-General, if I may put it that way, and I see no reason why his best interests, in this case, should not be considered, along with the best interests of all of us.

Also serve the best interests of the Attorney­ General, if he permitted Manitobans to reflect upon this very important course of action, this very im portant proposed change to our constitution, and permit all Manitobans to evaluate that proposed change, soberly, conscientiously and deeply over the next few weeks and months. I see nothing wrong with my suggestion, Sir, that that course of action would serve the best interests of all 4504

Monday, 25 July, 1983 the parties that I have mentioned. Why should not the best interests of those who serve on both sides of this House be considered, where very important legislation is concerned, just as the best interests of the public should be considered. In fact, I do not separate those two ingredients. I believe that those of us who serve here, on whiche ver side, were sent here through the conscientious and deliberate action of constituents, who believe that their best interests would be served through our being here.

So I equate best interests in this case, Sir, and I say that the best interests of the public, the best interests of this legislative body, and the best interests of the Attorney-General would be served by taking a sober second look at the urgent time limi tations placed upon this Legislatur e where this resolution is concerned, in the proposal that is now before us and permitting some flexibility and permitting some opportunity for all of us, inside and outside this House, to study this profoundly important question very deeply, very extensiv ely, and very widely over the next period of time.

That period of time should not be a period of days, Mr. Speaker, in the interests of all parties that I have mentioned, that period must necessarily be several months. No one on this side is holding out for undue delay, or for deli berate obstruction, or for an examination that would run to some indefinable period of years. What we are asking for is the reasonable amount of time that would permit digestion of the issue by Manitobans generally and proper assessment and evaluation of the government's proposal by Manitobans general ly.

And that reasonable time, Sir, would appear to be the time between now and the tim e tha t this Mani toba Legislature is next called into Session, presumably the spring of 19 84. So what we were talking about really is a period, Sir, merely of months; but those months, in our view, are crucial for proper comprehension on the part of Manitobans general ly, of what is embodied in the government's proposal. Mr. Speaker, my remarks at this point in time thus become an appeal to reason and an appeal to a concilia tory attitude on the part of the Attorney-General and an appeal, in fact, Sir, to common sense.

We face in this House at the present time an extremely important and an extremely heavy workload. Intensive study is necessary during the remainder of this legisla tive Session of a wide number of bills, of wide-r anging interest and impact for Manitobans. Some of them have been mentioned in debate this afternoon. relative to the Speed-up Motion and in question period.

The evidence of that in terest to which I've referred can be seen in the sizes and number of the various public and professional delegations and interest groups that are appearing these days and nights before different comm ittees of this House, on a number of these bills. There are, for example, Mr. Speaker, some 40 delegations, I believe still waiting to be heard on Bill 60,

An Act to amend The Hig hway Traffic Act (2); and some 15 , I believe, waiting to appear and make their representations on Bill No. 2, The Law Enforcement Review Act; and these are only examples. There are many other bills that will be addressed by wide num bers of delegations. My colleague, the Honourable Member for Lakeside, reminds me of Bill 90 and the nu mbers of cattle producers who will want 4505 to appear at committee stage and make representations on that legislation.

But it's not my intention to proceed through a litany of the num bers of controversial and very important proposed pieces of legislation that are at committee stage right now, on which substantial num bers of Manitobans want to make their representations. It was merely my intention. Sir, at this juncture to cite two or thr ee of these bills as examples and they are fair examples of a current situation.

They refiect the current legisla tive workload and they reflect the preoccupation of members of this House and members of the general public of Manitoba, the preoccupation of Manitobans. generally , with im por tant, far- reaching pi eces of proposed legislation in a range of subject areas. Faced with that realit y, Mr. Speak er, it seems unreasonable, to say the least, and in fact, imprudent and unwise in my view for the government to propose that the committee which is to review the proposed amendment to

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, namely, the Standing Commi ttee on Privi leges and Elections, should report to the Assembly at this Session of the Legislature. l don't see how that can be practically possible, Mr. Speaker. I don't see how that can be constructive or productive. I don't see how that can add to or enhance the .Jxercise on which the government is em barked at the present time with respect to Manitoba's cultural and ling uistic makeup. Here is a government, Mr.

Speaker, which said that it would listen to people, which from time to time insists, I think, with some reasons for argument, some reasons on which it can be challenged, but noneth eless from time to time ins ists that it does listen to people. Well here, in one of the most important areas of our makeup and our being of our present and our future, the government seems either unwilling - or if not unwilling insensit ive to the legitima te rights of the people of Manitoba to be heard on the subject before conclu sive and definitive decisions are taken.

It may not be, Sir, that this government is as opposed to the course of action that has been proposed by my leader as it is uncertain of where it wants to go itself and uncertain of its own correctness. It may well be that this government feels that it has made some errors in judgment along the way, put itself in positions of compromise and public criticism in its one-and-a-half years in office, appeared to be irresolute with respect to some major issues in the past 18 months, and therefore cannot take the chance of appearing irresolute or unc ertain on an issue as important as this.

I do not know what the precise motivation is for the haste in bringing this issue to a conclusion, the haste that is obviously the desire of the government here, but I suggest that if there is to be any credibility afforded ambition or its claim to be a government that listened people or that aspires to listen to people, it must, �- Speaker, be willing to listen to the people of ,,anitoba on this resolution of such far-reaching impact for this province.

That cannot be done without permitting study of the resolution to go to an intersessional committee, and that committee to report to the Legislature at its next Se ssion. Any attempt, any demand, to ha ve the committee report to the Legislatur e at this Session will abort that very necessary exercise. Wher ever I go, Mr. Speaker, I have people speak to me very sincerely and very passionately on this subject.

Monday, 25 July, 1983 I believe that the Attorney-General and his colleagues would have to concede that they have persons speak to them sinc erely and passionately on it too. I don"t believe for one instant that all those who are making represe ntations either priv ately or pu blicly to the Attorney-General are articulating the same course of action any more than all of those who speak to me about it are voicing the same position, the same course of action. Manitoba's society is split on the issue, and it's split passionately and sinc erely.

It is the opportunity for Manitobans to digest this matter properly and to think about it soberly and to come to a well-considered conclusion that we plead for, Mr. Speaker, when we ask the Attorney-General to permit this committee to go into inter sessional public hearings and public study of the resolution and take the time to do the job properly and be permitted to withhold its final conclusions and its final report until this Legislature next meets at its next Session.

It is because we feel that that opportunity is not being provided to Manitobans to see the issue clearly and fully, to think it through clearly and fully and to express themselves to the government clearly and fully on the matter that we are so concerned. It is that point and one other on which we are deeply concerned, Mr. Speaker. The other point being the move to entrenchment which is contained in the resolution, the move to entrench this ex tension of officialdom of the two languages in Manitoba. We are not concerned with extension of language services.

We are not worried about our capabili ty and capacity as well meaning members, all of us , of a mo saic of one millio n Manitobans of a variety of cul tural backgrounds to achie ve a reasonable, fair and equitable extension of services in the French language alongside the English language in this province, but wh at· we are concerned about is the move, implicit in the government's action to entrench those services in an official way anci take admin istration and consideration and ajudication of them out of the hands of the elected representatives of the people, out of the hands of the members of this Legislature and place them for all time beyond the reach of the people, place them for all time in the courts.

Those two issues: The issue of the proper opportunity for Manitobans to thoroughly digest this question and to allow themselves to be heard on it; and the issue of entrenchment of the extension of official language services are those that have prompted us to take the position that we have taken thus far on behalf of our party and a great many Manitobans from all walks if life who have come to us with their concerns about the gov ernment's pos ition.

It is th ose two issues in particular , those two concerns in particul ar, that lie at the root of the speeches and commentaries that my leader has offered on this important subject. both inside this Chamber and outside it. If the committee charged with dealing with this resolution is given the opportu nit y, Sir, to consider it in the public arena, and the public is given the meaningful opportunity to make its views known over a sufficiently reasonable period of time, then I sinc erely believe that all of us can come to peaceful and positive resolution of this question.

If, on the other hand, there is the feeling in anybody's heart that Manitobans are being pressured and that this Legislature is being pressured and that the public is being denied the right to express itself for the sake of achieving a politically expedient ini tiative then the results will be negative and damaging with impli cations beyond our measurement and our assessment in this debate tod ay. Rather than positive results !or our province, we will face negative and damaging results for our province. The Attorney-General has the opportunity here, Mr.

Speaker, to make a sign ificantly greater contribution to the progress and the uni ty of Manitoba than perhaps he even imagines is contained in the resolution in its present form. He has that opportunity because it is available for him to say tha t notwiths tanding the objectives contained in the resolution in which he believes, he has come to the conclusion that Manitobans in general have a great deal to do in the way of thinking about this resolution and a great deal to say about this kind of a move, and that they deserve the time in which to say it.

That kind of contribution to this debate would be, I suggest, an his toric one, and I make that appeal to the Attorney-General because I don't doubt for one moment that he is amenable to that kind of evaluation of a legislative question. He has shown some willingn ess to be concil iatory where other controversial legislation is concerned. He has made some adjustments and revisions to his gov ernment's position on Bill 18, The Legisla ti ve Assembly and Executive Council Conflict of Interest Act. He has made some revisions and adjustments to Bill 2, The Law Enforcement Review Act.

There is no question in my mind that the government's decision to withd raw the bill that would have amended The Payment of Wages Act was a decision that felt the im pact and influence of the Attorney-General in very large measure, and that being the case, Mr. Speaker, if he has seen room for a concilia tory attitude or a more flexible attitude, a more understanding attitude, where some of the unsatisfactory aspects of those pieces of legislation were concerned, how much more should there be a willing ness on his part to be flexible and to be concil iatory on this important legislation?

How much stronger is the argument for him to be flexible where the very fabric of the Manitoba mosaic and Manitoba's cultur e is concerned? Many commentators, many interest groups, have spoken up vigorously in opposition to the government's intention embodied in this particular resolution, none of them, Mr. Sp eaker , any more emphatically or effectively than the Uni on of Manitoba mun icipalitie s in this statement which it made this past Friday. That statement has not seen very much exposure in the media, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it's important that some references from it be read into the record at this time, because what the Uni on of Manitoba Municipalities has had to say in this particular statement is of very profound importance in the debate on which we are engaged. That statement from the union clearly enunc iated in its opening paragraphs that it felt that the matter of entrenchment was a severe and extreme course of action which could not be supported, and I quote from tha t statement, Mr.

Speaker: "A very sign ificant majority of the members of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and also a very large percentage of the 4506

Monday, 25 July, 1983 citizens of this province oppose the amendments to

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act as presented by the Government of Manitoba. It is not that we oppose French langua ge services when it is needed or requested, but we feel that the application of such a service should be entirely up to the Pro vincia l Go vernment to admi nis ter and should not be entrenched in the Constitution and left to the decisions of the courts of law in Canada to enforc e.

" The union, Sir, as you know speaks for mun icipalities all over this province and mun icipal governments and elected municipal officials, as you know, speak for the indi vidual men and women on the streets and towns and hig hways of Manitoba all over this province. There is no closer contact that one has in a government electorate sense. There is no closer contact between the citizen and elected office than that which exists at the mun icipal level.

Here is where the very roots of a government, the very roots of admin istration, exist and are felt and are affected by the people in society who work at the grassroots levels. So, comments, comment ary, opinion, corning from mun icipal spokesmen, from those who serve at the mu nicipal level of gove rnment, are of enormous importance I suggest, to those of us in this Chamber when we're considering legislation that will have the impact on our province that this particular resolution proposes to have. The statement by the Union of Mani toba Mun icipalit ies goes on, Mr.

Speaker, to argue that the proposal of the go ve rnment is arguable and challengeable constitutionally and legally and also financial ly, that the program is too costly in the words of the union, is not practical as a dual language program, is cum bersome and unworkable and, "most important ly, it is not needed in Manitoba. The most important reason for not implementing such a program is tha t it is going to and already has created hurt feelings, and our legislators should have realized this.

Not a single commun ity in our province is made up entirely of one et hnic group, but most communi ties ha ve representations of three of four ethnic groups. It has also created the same hu rt feelings with in the ethnic groups even on the family level. So, in stead of uniting, it is dividing the entire fabric of the community spirit that already existed in our province." I put those comments on the record, Mr. Speaker, because as I say thus far, to my kno wledge, that statement corning from the Un ion of Mani toba Munic ipaliti es ha s no t received media or public attention.

It deserves media and public attention . It deserves consideration and recognition in this Chamber and it deserves to be on the record in this debate. My main point for referring to it, Mr.

Speaker, other than the justification that I've already offered is that it reinforces the position that my leader has atter:ipted to make, that I think I referred to a few moments ago, that a great many concerned inter est groups in the province hold profound and sincerely felt feelings or this question, some in favour, many opposed, but none theless deeply and sinc erely felt and profoundly held feelings that cannot be addressed and examined and cannot be explored by all the various relevant in terest gr oups in some kind of ha sty, hothouse atmosphe re tha t the Attorney-General and th e government may envisage under the procedure they have proposed in the resolution before us at the present time.

There is strong concern and anxi ety and strong disagreement insofar as any consensus is conerned, and for that reason in the interests of the people of Manitoba and the other parties to which I have referred we consider it vital, and I think the statement by the U nion of Manitoba Municip alities rein forces that position of ours. We consider it vital that proper study and evaluation be afforded. Tha t oppor tun ity can be provided by the Attorney-General very easily , Mr.

Speaker, very easily, by permitting this commit tee to hear from the public, permitting the public the time that it needs to ma ke the kinds of reasoned presentations that are desirable here, and by permitting the committee to report to the next Session of the Legislatur e rather than the current one. So, Mr. Speaker, let me leave that as an appeal to the Attorney-General to make a very important and positive contribution to this

chapter of Manitoba's history by injecting that note of reasonableness into the study of this question. What is the rush , after all? What is the rush? As my leader has pointed out, Sir, Parliament is not in Session, will not be in Session until the middle of September, will face a heavy agenda of business when it reconvenes and is not likely to be in a posit ion even to touch this matter for some considerable time. What is wrong with intersession al study of this issue?

What is wrong with the suggestion made earlier for a joint parliamentary legislative committee to look into it between Sessions of our Legislature? Why should not federal representatives in Manitoba be drawn into the examination of this question too? Their expertise, their in volv ement, their rel ationship with their constitue ncies su rely is crucially im portant in the determina tion of this question too. Surely that is as important as the consideration of th ose of us representing provincial constituencies. Mr.

Speaker, an extension of time for study and examination of this question would permit that kind of an approach. It would permit a joint parliamenta ry legisla tiv e study and it would permit the kind of examination to be completed that would then enable both Parliament and this Legislature to look at the course of action proposed by the government on the basis of all the facts and on the basis of all the feelings, and surely in an area such as this all the facts are crucially important and all the feelings are crucially important. So, Mr.

Speaker, we ask the Attorney-General to make that positive and constructive adjustment, to seize this opportunity to contribute very very substantially to the growth of the unity of Manitoba and Manitobans and to the protection of that unity against prejudices, biases and emotions that can be fueled in a verv unfortunate way by legislative pressures and by political pressures and time constraints. One thing that one very quickly learns in the legislative arena, Mr.

Speaker, is that it helps very nearly always on very nearly every question which legislators confront, it helps to take the time to listen to opposing views. It helps to consider what the other person has to say. It helps to weigh the different perspectives and draw reasoned conclusions. You cannot do that under a sense of urgency and you cannot do that under a workload 4507

Monday, 25 July, 1983 pressure, such as exists for members of this Chamber at the present time, at this stage of our 1983 Session, Sir.

With Speed-up, with committees meeting at various times of the day and night, with a heavy range of provocative and constroversial legislation, with a long line-up of interest groups wanting to participate at committee stage in the examination, as mentioned, of so many controversial bills, there is simply not the time or the opportunity either for members of this Legislature, members of the committee that is referred to in this resolution or, more importantl y, members of the general public to make the considered representations and go through the important examinations of the government's proposed course of action with which we are confronted in this resolution, Mr.

Speaker. We cannot do that in 10 , 15 , 20 days under the pressures of Speed-up and under the pressure of heavy leg isl ativ e exa mina tion. There is no way tha t a responsible report can come back from that committee to this Se ssion of the Legislature. If we want a responsible report, and heaven kno ws we must have one, and heaven knows we want nothing other than a responsible report, then we must permit the comm ittee and the public the time, free of those other constraints and pressures of work, to bring in that kind of a report A MEMBER: That sounds reasonable to me, Bud. MR. l.

SHERMAN: . . . and that means reporting to the next Session of the Legislature, Sir. In that vein, I therefore take this opportunit y, Mr. Speaker , to mo ve, se con ded by the Ho nourable Member for St. Norbert, that the resolution be amended by striking out all the words after the word "Commi ttee" in the second paragraph of the operative sect ion thereof, and substituting the followi ng: "sit during recess after prorogation and report to the next Session of the Legislature." MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to speak in support of that amendment. Mr. Speaker, I listened to the remarks of the Member for Fort Garry, and I think that was a very effective contribution to the debate. There is no doubt, Mr. Spea ker, that if we are going to proceed with a cons titutional amendment, tha t there should be a provincial consensus.

The honourable member suggests that there is a division of opinion in the community at large, and my im pression is very clear tha t it is over whelm ingl y oppo sed to the proposal put forward by th e admin istration, overwhelming ly. - (I nterjection) No, it's not based on my survey alone, Mr. Speaker. My survey came in at 93.3 percent, and I am willing to bet that in a referendum across Manitoba, the numbers will be very very simil ar. They will certainly be at least 70 percent, and they might hit 80 or 90 percent. My own thinking is 90 percent or better, but we'll see.

We'll see, first of all, in the referendums that will be held throughout the province in Octo ber. We'll see at the next provincial election and we'll see at the next federal election, because if this goes through this Cham ber, if this resolution goes through unamended, is rammed through over the dead bodies of a lot of Cons ervatives and a few other people, Mr. Speaker, it will then go into the federal arena; and every single member of Parliament, including seven New Democrats, five Cons ervatives and two Liberals, are going to have to take a stand on this particular matter.

No matter how much pain it causes to each member of Parliament, as in the fact that federal New Democrats are going to have to think about opposing the provincial admin istration, and federal Conservatives are going to have to think about Brian Mulroney, and federal Liberals are going to be tied to this no matter what they do, I think that every political party federally is going to have to sweat over this particular issue. Then , of course, in a couple of years we will get a report from the people of Manitoba about the Provincial Government's actions on this matter. Mr.

Speaker, I can only believe that will be a disaster for anyone on this side of the Chamber who supports that polic y as it presently exists. Mr. Speaker, the question here really is as follo ws; it was referred to by a number of members, including the Member for Fort Garry, and I have said so many times, and that really is: Wha t is the rush? What is this un due ha ste and this obsessi on and this determ ination by the Provincial Government to get this legislation through this Session? When you read the original motion, you know it sounds very interesting.

They're going to hear the views of Manitobans and they're going to look into this particular momentous amendment to the Canadian Constitution. This is no ordin ary resol ution. Maybe; I don't know. Maybe it's the most important resolution that has come before this House in the last 20 years. Certain ly, it's one of the most important, and I wouldn't want to prio rize them. The Leader of the official Opposition says - certainly one.

I don't know whether he would rate it as No. 1, but it certainly is in the front ranks of those important issues; certainly those that affect the province on the basis of a harmony that has existed for a long time. Mr. Speaker, I want to be quick to add that people who opposed this resolution are not opposing it because they don't like French-Canadians or they don't like the French language, which is the easy cheap shot and the scare tactic that comes sometimes from the supporters of the resolution .

People who don 't want this resolution are concerned about introducing bilingualism on an official basis into the province and into the Civil Service, and we don't need that kind of nonsense in our province. We don't need a policy that'll strain the kind of harmony that exists in this Legislatur e and the harmon y, I should say, that exists in the province. I don't want to confuse it with the "disharmony" that exists in the Legislature. So, Mr. Speaker, the first question is: What is the rush?

Why is the Attorney-General and the First Minister so determined to get it through this Session in the next couple of weeks? Adlai Stevenson once said in a debate that he was prepared to wait for an answer from the Soviet delegate in the Un ited Nations until hell freezes over. I guess, 4508

Monday, 25 July, 1983 in this case, the two honourable gentlemen in the front bench. they are prepared to get this through even if all of us melt in this particular Chamber and in this particular building in a very hot prairie summer. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to speculate on motives. I have heard some very interesting speculation as to the motives of the honourable members, but I wouldn't care to put that on the record. I simply say that in the month of October, since the admin istration is unwi lling to hold a provincial referendum, you know, Mr.

Speaker, my advice to the Pawley admin istration is as follows: Hold a referendum and that way you could get off the hook. You could take the results of the referendum and act accord ing to those results. Follow the wishes of the people; listen. This is a party, Mr. Speaker, that listens to people. That was the slogan in the last election: "We listen to people." Mr.

Speaker, I think that if the province doesn't want to hold a referendum, it doesn't have to shell out, as one Min ister sugge sted - I don't know if it was the Minis ter of Urban Affairs - but somebody suggested it would cost $2 mill ion and they weren't going to put up that kind of money; but somebody suggested that. Mr. Speaker, that would be a lot of mon ey, but you know the munic ipalities are going to do it free, not a cost, not a penny - (I nterjection) - right. They're going to have two ballots: one on nuc lear weapons and Cruise missiles and disarmament; and one on bilingua lism. You know, Mr.

Speaker, it doesn't matter what the question is. I spoke to somebody who is a reeve or a council lor, and he said, well, we have to really think about what the questio n's going to be. I said to him, you know, it doesn't matter what the question is. You can have any question that you want. It can be a long question or a short question, any question that you want. That isn't important because it's the debate and the pros and cons put on that res olution tha t's important. You know, in Quebec, the P.Q. spent a great deal of time framing a question that anybody in Quebec would have to support.

They took time, they gave the mselves the best possible wording and the most favourable light possible to put a question before the public so they would vote "yes." But, then, all of a sudden, some people decided to organ ize a "no." So there was basically a "yes" and basically a "no." A "yes" to their question of separation or a "no" to the question of separation. In this case, it's very simple. Take any wording that you like. You know, the members, my colle agues on this side of the House, said to me: You took a poll and that poll stinks.

You had a loaded question that was designed deli berately to elicit a response and you got it. It was a crooked poll with a crooked result and it doesn't reflect what the people of Manitoba think. Mr. Speaker, I've said many times to colleagues on this side of the House, many times, and I say it them today: You've got a better question, let's hear it; yOL have a question that the people can give an objective opinion on, let's see it. So, I haven't seen one yet.

I can think of a dozen different ways that you could word a question and it doesn't really matter because you can take your question and then the government can go out and sell its whole program on bilingua lism, and the opposition, formal and informal, can oppose it and point out what's wrong with it. Then the people will vote. They are certainly going to vote in two years. They certai nly are going to vote in the next provincial election on this question, you better believe it.

But, they can also vote right now, and the munic ipalities are going to give them a wonderful opportun ity, free, not a penny's cost, to the Provincial Government, have a referendum in October. You know, Mr. Speaker, if the Provincial Government doesn't listen, the Provincial Government refuses to listen to the people now, I've got news for them.

The MPs are going to listen to them in Octber, because about the time this is being discussed in the House of Commons every MP is going to get the results from that referendum - you're not going to get it now, because it's going to be held in Octo ber, but you're going to get it in October - and it's going to reflect federally and it's going to reflect provincial ly. Mr.

Speaker, just as in the last few federal elections the popul arity of the Lyon adminis tration was reflected in the federal results in Manitoba - there is obviously some correlation, it's hard to be exact and hard to be precise - but obviously the programs and policies ol the Lyon admini stration to some extent were reflected in the federal results in Manitoba.

Simila rly, when the federal election comes, it will be both a reflection on the New Democratic Party across Canada, across Western Canada, on the indi vidual MPs in Manitoba, and it will also be an opportunity for people to ind icate what they think of the Pawley admin istration. There are seven seats at stake, and I've heard estimates of how many seats there are going to be after the next federal election and the estimates that I hear - these are not necessar ily what anybody else hears, these are what I hear - is the range is between zero and two, out of seven. Those are the estimates.

Now, maybe there'll be 9 or 13 or 14 , but at the moment there are seven. - (Interjection) Well, the Member for Lakeside, he knows politics when he sees it. He says, it's a popular issue. If you grab on and ride it off into the sunset, you could score heavi ly, much to the surpris e and the chagrin of the present speaker and the members opposite. We would be taken by surprise of the depth of affection on the part of the people of Manitoba for this particular policy. So, Mr.

Speaker, I simply say, if we're going to have a referendum in October on nuclear weapons, which is not a bad idea, it's not a bad idea, I'm against nuclear weapons. No way would I vote in favour of the Cruise missile and other things like that - no way. I'm too deeply committed against that kind of a program. But, on the other hand, this ballot could also have on it a question on biling ualism, and there is no doubt in my mind, Mr. Speaker, I don't know what the Cruise results will be, I don't know what that'll be, that'll be a bit of a division.

If you put a question on abortion, you'd get a pretty big split there. But, you put this question on and you're going to get an overwhelming landslide against. Mr. Speake r, the dea dlin e for thi s res olution is December 31s t. So, if this went to Ottawa in Octo ber, November or December, that's good enough. You know, if it never went to Ottawa, that would be fine too. Who cares? You know, we hear all this talk, well, we cannot renegotiate because we have to go back to our partners the Societe Franco -Manitobaine, and by God, they may not approve it. What are we going to do then ? 4509

Monday, 25 July, 1983 Mr. Speaker, decide on your poli cy, go back to your partners. If your partners don't like it, they can lump it. You don't need your partners. You don't need the Federal Government. You don't need Pierre Trudeau. In fact, if there's anybody you don't want, it's Pierre Trudeau , the Prime Minis ter of Canada. That is the kiss of death. Anybody who gets into bed with him is finished, political ly. And, Mr. Speaker, the Franco- Manitoban Society is regarded as a partner - why?

Why are they a partner? - because the Federal Government made it a condition of negotiation that the government had to negotiate with the Franco- Manitoban Soci ety. Mr. Speaker, I will save some of remarks on that until later. I will speak more on that particular aspect later, but I say that when the government decided to have its public information meetings - those weren't hearings, those were meetings.

My view was from Day One, and still is, that we should have extensive public hearings throughout the province, take a crew around - the Member for Fort Garry and others are correct when th ey said tha t committe e should contain federal members - because either way, it's going to contain federal members. Either way, the federal members are involved. No matter what you do, the federal people are going to have to be involved, they're going to have to know what to do, they're going to have to speak to their people, they're getting letters and phone calls, too. Mr.

Speaker, I found it somewhat amusing that the First Mini ster answered me when I asked him a question the other day on the question of nuclear weapons, when he said that any astute politician will listen to the public on a matter of concern, any astute politician will listen to the people; and he advised people to put pressure on the Prime Minis ter of Canada so he would then reverse hims elf on the Cruise. So I said, "Well, if that's true there, what about you?" Well, the First Minis ter said , "That's a different story. How could you; how could anybody compar e nu clear weap ons with bilingu alism?" Mr.

Speaker, he said there's nothing in common. I'll tell you what they have in common. They're both explosive. They can both injure and kill politicians; but, of cou rse the y'r e dif ferent issues. Of cour se, I unde rstand that one thing is a bomb that explodes and has fallout, and the other thing is a polic y related to biling ualizing the Civil Service and introducing French as an official language in the Province of Manitoba. Of course, I know that.

The point is if he says that the Prime Minis ter should respond to the public and people should pressure him and send letters and phone calls and walk around with placards and demonstrations, and he sugge sts that to the public, !hen I say that the public should also do that in terms of his adminis tration and of hims elf, and he should then respond the way he says Pierre Ellio tt Trudeau should respond. I mean any politician, Mr.

Speaker, who knows anything about public opinion knows that the public is overwhel mingl y against this particular issue, and they are phoning and writing letters, and so on, everyday to all these politicians. Mr. Speaker, I got a petition the other day that is being sent to the Minis ter of Finance - 300 signa tures - I don't kn ow, perhaps the opposition got it; they got it too - 300 signatures picked up at random in Rossmere; 99.5 percent, acco rding to the person who gathered them; 99.5 percent sig ned it. Do es that tell you anything? It shou ld.

I can tell you, if I got a petition in my riding signed by that many people on an issue, I would think about it very careful ly. I wouldn't just laugh it off; I wou ldn't say, well, what do I care! i would think about it very carefully. Mr. Speaker, today, as you know, I put an ad in the Free Press and the replies are starting to come, just starting to come, doing fine. I expect that they're going to come by the thousands tomor row. They're going to start rolling in on Tuesday. One fellow spoke to me in front of the steps.

A fellow stopped his car in front of the steps; 25 people between 10 :00 and 12 :30 p.m. came into my office in person to deliver theirs. They don't trust the post office, and they don't want their money lost or their ballots lost. One guy stopped his car right in front of the steps. He was a New Democrat, Mr. Speaker. A MEMBER: You better make sure that the mail all gets to you, Russ. MR. R. DOERN: Right, you're not kidding. A MEMBER: It's not going to the caucus office. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I want to open my mail . Mr.

Speaker, this fellow stopped his car, he turned around and he jumped out of his car and he came up to me. He was about 60 years old . . . A MEMBER: But did he embrace you? MR. R. DOERN: No, he wasn't a French Canadian that I could tell. Well, French Canadians are inclined to hug people and a kiss on each ear sometimes in official ceremonies. Mr. Speaker, he came up to me and he was quite annoyed, just like the Min ister of Health, and he said to me, "Scott is my member." I said, "You should have a talk with him." And he said, "I'm going to get hold of him." He said, "Where is he?

I said, "Well, he's maybe in his office, or maybe he's in the caucus room. Go and have a talk with him." He said, "Listen, I'm tel ling you; I've talked to hundr eds of people in the area and they're all against." He said, "I'm a New Democrat. If they go ahead with this, I'm sending in my membership card." I'm telling you that a lot of New Democrats are saying that. I don't like to say that in public, but I'm telling you that that is a fact. That is a fact. The adminis tration is out of touch with the party.

The admin istration is not in touch with the grassroots New Democrats, and you take a poll among New Democrats, not a phony poll - not this thing that the Attorne y­ General has concocted. That's going to be a laugh when we get that poll. Everybody should be here, because it's going to be fun time when he releases his question and when he releases his num bers and when he releases how the poll was taken and so on. It's going to be very interesting to find out how that worked, 1)ecause that was a 70 percent in-favour poll. I'm really looking forward to seeing that poll. Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, the government decided not to hav e publ ic hearings at fir st, but to ha ve public 4510

Monday, 25 July, 1983 information meetings. Public information meetings very well structured; very carefully structured meetings. Jack London, the Dean of Law was the M.C.; no clashes with the Attorney-General at the mike, he's the M.C.; and some staff is there with charts and maps and documents. Nice brochu res are handed out at the meeting, and the Attorney-General starts every meeting with a 30 minu te or more presentation and then questions are taken from the floor. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I went to two of those meetings, two of them; one in Brandon, which I think was probably fai rly representative; one in Dauphin, which was probably fairly representative; one in Thompson I didn't see. I didn' t see the one in Dauphin eith er. The one in Thompson seemed to be a peculiar meeting. I don't know much about it, but I was also at the one at the International Inn. Mr. Speaker, let me read you the results of those meetings as seen by the media.

Here's the Winn ipeg Sun, Friday, July 8, 19 83: "P enner strikes out in Brandon, Dauphin ." That's what the Sun said, and listen to this quote in the middle: "In voices crackling with suppr essed ang er, speaker after speaker rose to denounce the biling ual amendment to applause and cheers from the crowd ." Mr. Speaker, boy, if that isn't a warning! I mean that sentence is incredible. It was written by Andrew Coyne. Let me tell you, if you studied that sentence careful ly, it is dynamite. That's dynamite.

Su ppressed ang er, crack ling voices, speaker after speaker denouncing the amendment, and the crowd cheering and applauding that particular approach. - (Int erjection) - No, I'm not exaggera ting. I'm reading a verbatim quote from the Winn ipeg Sun. Well, the Member for Urban Affairs, he laughs, you see. He's new and he laughs; he think s there's a lot of support for this, right? Go out there in his riding, do or -to-door , nine out of ten in favour of the government. That's not true in my riding, but in his riding there's big support for this, right?

The Ukrainian community's behind you all the way? - (I nterjection) You don't lie to the people, but let me tell you, you're going to be lying on the ground after this particular amendment. Mr. Speaker, you tell your story to the people in your riding and I'll tell my story, and everybody else will tell their story. They'll all tell their story and we'll see how the people react. A MEMBER: I thought the Sun went through your points one by one. MR. R. DOERN: Oh, he's talking now, he wants the

article that somebody leaked to the Sun, the five points about my sins. I have my letter in the works, it'll be in the Sun, I hope you read it. It's in draft form right now, every point is rebutted, but you'll judge whether they're effective or not. Mr. Speaker, here's the Free Press. July 8th, "L ittle support voiced for bilingua lism deal," that's written by Gary Hunter, "15 of 19 speakers were highly critical," etc. etc. Then it quotes teachers and reeves and so on. The majority of the people were not impressed - not impressed. Here's the Free Press, Friday, July 15 th, Dave Roberts.

This is on the meeting at the International Inn. Now let 4511 me describe that meeting very briefly, Mr. Speaker, because that was a laugh. That really was a laug h. I have never in my life seen a meeting that was stacked or packed before. I've never seen that before in a big way, and when I went in there I heard before the meeting that people were being bussed in for that mee ting. When I went in there and I heard the applause, Mr. Speaker, most applause is about like this (clap, clap), that's most applause. This applause was (CLAP, CLAP).

I mean I never heard people slapping their hands together harder and in a more enthusia stic way in my life. I'm sure that based on what these people were told they had a right to applaud like that because they were to