PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 112 4th. Session 34th. Gen~ral Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, JUNE 15, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page 1. The House met at 10.30 a.m. l1r. Spenker in tlu~ Chair. ANS\vERS TO QUESTIO;~s: HOt~. W. ROI.,rE(:-Iin. of Community & Social Dev.): Question 554, asked by the hon, member for Gander on the Order Paper of Friday June 12, (1) 320 square feet of space. lb. (2) lhe rental per year per square foot is $3.5~ makinr, the total yenrly rental $1,120. It is on a monthly basis, the rental is monthly and the space fs rented from Tucker Realty coq~pany. Tabled. fWN. H.ST,\RKES(~in. of Highways): Question 550, asked by the han. member for Labrador West. The answer is $78.00.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: Chairman of Committees: Department of Labour page 76: HON. J .R.SMALL\~OOD(Premier): Mr. Chairman, in the absence of the minister of Labour who is ill, not seriously ill, he is expected to be back in less than __ a week, I have undertaken to introduce thest! estimat..,s to the committee. And in so doing may I be permitted to pay a tribute tbis morning to a man whose name and fame in many parts of this island more especially the central part of the island are in the hearts of a great n~ny people. I refer to the late Joseph J.

Thompson, The founder of the first powerful union of loggers that we ever saw on this island. of Newfoundland. Joe Thompson for a great many years was the one and only leader of the loggers of Newfoundland. He worked hard to build an organization. He built a zreat organization. The orgo'lnization did split into three. there was one segment led by a man, one of his m~n officers \<.'ho broke away and formed a new organization in Deer Lake, Mr. 01arles Tulk. Another one subsequently broke away1 led by another 71G9

lb. June I:s 1970 Tape 1240 page 2. officer of the union who broke away from it and founded his own orp,anizat;ion 1 >lr. Pearce Fudge .in Corner Brook. And of course the breaking a\vay of two segments of the union, to become independent separate: , bodies, did to some extent weaken the main body. Hut the main body continued for a great many years to be the leader of the loggers in our Province. Joe Thompson was not a JJtan of great education but he was a man of great devotion. He was a man of great dedication and his memory deserves to be enshrined in the hearts of loggers and indeed of all Newfoundlanders.

He was a good Newfoundlander. He was a good leader. And he did an enormous amount of good. Now time makes ancient truth uncouth and the leader of today may become an anachronism of tornorrow,A statement "11th which 1 am sure there are some hon. members in this !louse who will agree, that the leader of today becomes an encumberance and should be swept aside to make room for new leadership. That turned out to be the case in the logging industry and·Hr.

Thompson did in the end find himself in the unenviable of and unpleasant positionhbeing unwanted by a large number of the men to whose service he had given such enormous time and effort and for whom he had done so much good~ Because the difference betw·een the conditions of the loggers in ~ewfoundland on the day when he launched his union and the day when he \~ent out is staggering. The 41ifference is the difference of progress and improvement. So I would like to pay that tribute to him ,as I did not have the opportunity to do so \-lhen he passed away here recently.

I am sure that in Central Newfoundland to day and all over the island there are men who will approve my words and who will say; "yes, these words are well deserved." If there are any questions that are to be asked I will endeavour to answer them in these estimates.! am not an authority, I am not the minister but I will give all the answers I can get and if I cannot get them immediately 7170

June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page 3. I 1dll try to arrange to have them produced here in the commit tee. HO:\.F.H.RO\~E(:-lin. of Education): Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate inyself with the remarks that the l'remier has made 1~ith rcr,ard to Hr. lb. Thompson. And I do so not merely because most of his work as it happens': is connected and centered around the district that I represent the district of Grand Falls,. ;ind indeed most of the family or a good many of his family are actually living in the district of Grand Falls, But I do so because, as the Premier has already pointed out_. ;~r.

Joe Thompson was a great pioneer. He 1~as a pioneer in the real sense of the lvord, in labour legislation and in working f_or the betterment of loggers. I speak with some feeling on this because if I may make this personal allusion) my father before, many years before I was bo~n, in fact it was thirty years,was a Labrador fisherman, first as a crew member and later as captain of a labrador schooner.

And on an average one year out of four he told me - I say this was prior to my coming into the world - But he has told me and my mother told me that on an average one year out of four, every fourth year on an average,they would come home from the Labrador without a tomcod in the boats. Come home from the Labrador having spent whatever little credit they had, probably in debt for supplies, come home from the Labrador to face the winter without a cent in the world. In order to keep body and soul together he had no choice but to take off for the lnmber woods.

He has described to rae t,he conditions under which he and the early loggers~ hundreds of our men>worked $10 a month, that was his pay, $10 a month and the conditions under which they worked is nothing short of animal-lilCe. They weit subjected to incredible barbarism. Nm~ that was prior to Hr: Joe Thompson's time. But that there were tremendous improvements in the 1920's and the 1930's was due largely td the work of Mr. Joe Thompson. I happen to bave had first hand acquaintance with this because my first portfolio was Hines and Resources and there at that time we had a great deal of dealinr.s with 7171

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page 4. the loggers through the Division of Forestry. And I must express a regret that insufficient attention was paid at the time of the passlnp., a couple of months ago,of Mr. Joe Thompson, insufficient attentlon \las paid to the contribution that he made, I hope and I am sure that thls will be recorded what the Premier said and ,,•ha t I and maybe others \dll say 1 this ~olill be r<!corded so that 1\ewfoundland will be reminded of the debt that we owe to Hr. Joe Thompson, whose passing took place a few \vecks ago. lfR.A.'-nJRPIIY(Leader of the Opposition): ~!r.

Chairman, I would like just to say a \few words.As a matter of fact I have to plead guilty. I did not even know Joe Thompson was dead,quite honestly. But I can go Lack sowe forty years l<Ihen I went to Grand Falls first, travelling on the road so on and so forth. And I knew Joe Thompson very well. And in later years perhaps t~o1enty, twenty-five years ago and particularly at the time when they opened their hall there on the then Station ~oad. I 1-1as happy to be present at this opening. I know him through many mutual friends.

The Premier made a rather significant statement,! think,that we hear so much today people say he has not any education. The Premier did not say this but he said he was not an educate~ man and when I look back - NR. S:·!ALLWOOD: Farmally .• HR.HURBHY: That is the point I am trying to make Hr. Premier.

That we hear today about· education and that they have university degrees and when we look back at the years when men like Joe Thompson and Pearce Fudge who carried the whole country and many: hundreds and thousands of loggers practically on their mm shoulders without any sophisticated means, we just marvel sometimes at how far we advanced or how little we have advanced with formal education in doing things that people had their heart and souls into, I th"ink men like these,as the Premier has pointed out, Hy lleavens~what they did in these days to bring the lumLer woods 7172

lb. June 15 1970. Tape 1240. page 5. from slavery up to a decent livelihood, I think it was tremendous. to hear And as I say,I am very sorry indeedAof the passing of Joe Thompson. As I said, I knew him personally very Hell for many years and his loss 1 pe:i:-1-iaps not today we may not consider the loss because of sophisticatlon again,but the tribute that must be paid to him in the days when he had to get rir,ht down to rock bottom to try to preserve a little decency for the labouring man I think should always be remembered by people particularly in Central Ne1~f oundland.

As the Premier said Pearce Fudge was another very active man but tl1Cll they branched out and I think this sort of disintegrated Joe Thowpson's pm~er, But I have, I would like to add a word of tribute to him, I think he has been a tremendous gentleman and son:eone that the ·labouring people of this Province could look up to as a dedicated hard-working labour leader. MR.CRL>SBIJ:: Hr. Chairman, I would like to agree with the previous .speakers with reference to ~he late Hr. Joe Thompson and his startin~ the loggers union here in Newfoundland.

I think every country thrO\;s up some people who are away ahead of their time,including in the l<l.bour movement. And }fr. Thompson \vas certainly one of the pioneers in Newfoundland. And at the time when he commenced his work,certainly conditions in the woods,as they were often in other phases of New- foundland life, were, as the minister of Educatiou has·said.barbaric, And against great odds he was able to organize a lUlnberman 's union and to improve the lot of the men in the woods to a considerable extent, to compared,.what they had been when he started.

He, of course, is a man who has not been much in the ne1.rs the last ten or fifteen years ,but should certainly be remembered for his great

part in the labour movc;nent of Neufoundland. I presume that when the history of the labour movement is finished (this is being paid for by the department of labour and being done at Memorial Universityl ~o:hen that is finished 7173

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page 6. it will be published and we "'ill all have a record or it will go on sale or the government \vill publish or distribute copies free whatever the plans rtre and we ~.olill all be able to reatl about the history of these men in the early days of the Trade Union Hovement in Newfoundland. Now on the labour estimates generally Hr. Chairraan, I think that we have to enqui~e whether or not the House is drawing to a close. It may conclude this week.

I think it was said in the Speech From the Throne that there would'be legislation or perhaps the Budget Speech, anyway one of those documents, that there would be legislation introduced in this session to provide £or collective barraining for the government employees of Newfoundland. I think it was stated that I some.

It was also stated that the hospital legislation,"the hospital workers, Hospital Employees Employment Act, Act No.ll of 1966-67 is and going to repealed,,that there would be certain groups of p,overnment employees who would probably not be given the right to strike because of their particularly essential positions. It was not specified wl1ich groups these would be.

But in any event that there would be a collective bargaining sy;s:tem i'nstituted within the Civil Service of Newfoundland or for government employees, and that there would be . steps take~ as I believe the Minister of Health said s"ometime ago, to provide for some method of barAaining, collective bargaining for hospital workers across Newfoundland, T:ather than the present system where there are three hospitals at the moment,! believe, have Canadian Union Public Employees who are certified to represent people who ~ork at the Corner Brook, Grand Falls and Twillingate Hospitals.

But that some method of collective barc~ining for the whole hospital service would be instituted. Now these are all very important matters,Mr Chairman, and these are the labou~ estimates. And 4 would assume or I would ask that the Premier let us know today whether the government is going to be in a position to introduce t.hese changes in ler,islation at this session. 71 ~'4

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page 7. MR.SHALLWOOD: If ' the hon. gentleman will allow me I \>/Ould like to say that we have firm intention,in the present sitting, present session of the llouse.to bring legislation along those lines before the House. }o!R.CROSBIE: I am glad to hear the Premier say that. Because it is a very important matter. With reference to the hospital workers, Hos pital Employees Employment Act, 1966-67, when that was passed Hr. Chairman, I was a member of"t:he government and I have responsibility. foi: that, ·,as well as the other members of the government.

Since that time,I do not know when it was first publicly but at least a year ago, 1 have made my position clear that I think that legislation should be revoked and that 1t is nO\~ time to permit, for the law to permit hospitals workers to strike. They should be treated the same as other employees and there should be full collective bargaining for hospital workers, now. One must assume that in 1966-67 I was in favour of that legislation and I would say that I was in favour of it.

But there was an emergency on at that particular period, But no matter what the excuse ' there is nothing, Hr .Chairman, in public life or in any phase of life that requires a man always to have the same opinion as he has at any particular time. Now the Leader of the Opposition was annoyed the other day, I believe because we brought up the subject of the Hospital Horkers Employment Act. He was annoyed because,as he said, the P.C. official opposition at that time had voted against it and we had not, which was quite true.

But the fact that you supported something three years ago does not mean that you must support the same thing exactly three years later,if you have changed your mind about it. And I have certainly changed mine and I am glad toQ that the government have changed its mind also. And we are all anxious to see just what substitute is going to be brought in when that legislation is repealed. I think that the govern~ent of Canada now has collective bar~aining for civil servants. We all notice,in the post officcs,one of th<:. main 7175

lb . June 15 1970 Tape 1240 page · S trouble areas in the Federal Government's sphere. New Brunswick has it and most .of the provinces have it. I certainly hope that a satisfactory system now is going to be instituted by our government. Several other general thinrs I 'wuld like to mention, Mr. Chairman. There is the question of the minimum wage, which the government announced is being increased. And it '11as quite a good increase I thought, there about a month ago. The only thing is there is no point f~ogging, not a same dead horse, but flop,ging the/subject too much.

But I want to mention again that I believe that there should be the same minimum wage for men and women doing the same kind and quality of work. The minister of Labour indicated then that he agreed but that this was a question that had to be studied •to see what the economic effects of it might be. And I wonder,Mr. Chairman, whether · there is any such study being instituted into this. I do not think it is a matter that should be left indefinitely.

If there is to be a study to determine what effects this might have on the Newfoundland economy ; if women are brought to the same minimum wage level as men,then it is my feeling that this study should,H it is not commenced now,that it should be started now and that when a decision is n1ade that there be six months notice or perhaps even.a year's notice to employers so that they can all get ready for it. The minimum wage now for men is $1.25 an hour, nineteen years and over, for females it is $1.00 an hour over eighteen.

I believe most of the members of the House will agree that it should be the same for men and women. So 7176

June 15, 1Y70 Tape 1241 page 1. I wonder if the Premier can ascertain for us whether that study has been started and \Jhat the government's position is on that~ The minister of Labour said he agreed in principle,whel;:her there needed t o l>e some study done. I think this is also the rieht time to discuss the situation at Churchill Falls Nr. Chairman,with reference to labour.

Now I missed the Labrador Affairs estimates the other day and I do not wnnt to talk too much on the same subject if this has been covered. llut there was a collective agreement entered into, This House amended the legislation to permit there to be a collective ar,reement between tile Churchill Falls PovJer Project Contractors Association, and the Churchill Falls Project Allied Construction Council. This agreement is going to govern, laGour relations or the labour situation at Churchill from August 10. 1967 eo August 31, 1975.

Now the men who go to work at Churchill Falls have no say whatsoE!ver in who they select to represent as their bargaininr, ar,ent. That is determined for them. Those men cannot go out and decide whether the International Brotherhood ,_,f Electrical Workers or the Brotherhood of Painters, Decorators, Paper Hangers of America are roing to represent them or one of the larger unions like the Steel Workers Union, that is settled, [his House permitted it to be settled, b}· the Contractors Association of the Building Trades. And when that legislation was passed in this llouse, Mr.

Chairman, I am not sure if it was last year or the year before~! was sitting over here then.! believe it was after we resigned, in May of 1968. I supported the legislation because it was so important to the Clrurchill Falls project that they have some way of controlling their cost "'hile this great project was underway. But I .said at that time ,~tr.

Chairman, that I was worried about what the effect would be of pe,;mitting this kind of agree­ ment.There will be no pressure once the unions have got this collective agreement which they now have.· I said then and I. repeat, that there is not going to be the same pressure on them to r:to a good job for the Dien they are 7177

lb. June 15 1970 Ta pe 1241 page 2. representing as there would be if it "1ere possible to hav,p another vote as to 1.•ho should represent the workers : And I mentioned then that I felt that \ve should have something equivalent to an ombudsman to look into the matter of grievances of the men with respect of their unions. collective agreement covers the rights nf the men and the unions,vis-a-vis the employer, but the men, vis-a-vis the union, have no protection, as far as I am concerned. None. And the history,the lasll ten or fifteen years in the trade union movement · shows that.

There have been a fcH cases dtat have gone to the courts,of the really stubborn worker, Hbo, somehow, someone finances him. I do not know hot\1'0 Or he is persistent or a really determined man and ends up in Supreme Court. But the legal position of the men is weal: anyway as against their unions. And I do not knO\v ho1.· the other members find it but I have got complaint after complaint)from men comi.ng back from Churchill Falls,of how they have been treated 0 that they have been discriminated against in favour of french Canadians or just discriminated against generally.

I know that other members must have the same experience. Now a lot of t)1ese grievances I know are not justified. He all know that perhaps nine out of ten. But one out of every ten at least 7 I would say ,must be justified 1 just not taking the averages. And there seems to be something lacking at that project. I know that the department of LJbrador Affairs or the government has a man there also but the men workinr, there do not seem to have any confidence in a representative of the government of Newfoundland there.

There is something lacking on that project. tole need some kind of a militant brazen, saucy, fearless, individual with some experience in union-employer relations, who should be sent up there to represent the public generally and to investigate a lot of these grievances, The present situation is not·satisfactory. Here is a letter here, we all get these letters. A man dropping me a few lines looking for work at 7178

lb . June 15 1970 Tape 1241 pa£e J. Churchill Falls. That is a different one that is one for the m<Jnpm~cr. But here is a man that if he does not get work at Churchill Falls he is going to start a revolution in Newfoundland. Blames it all on the Government,.of course. But he got a call to go out to manpm.;cr to come to St.. John's, he is from Musgrave Harbour, He r,ot a job driving a dump truck, and he was up to Churchill. He was \~orking for four days and someone ran over an acetylene tank dmm in the pit and they blamed it on him. He says it Has not him.

And he was only in ehurchill Falls four days and he was laid off and sent out again. It is a big long letter about it. He is down in Musgrave Harbour and has to go on the Welfare. He 1~as fired. He was working at Victoria Lake. He had lots of experience, he.- says driving thirty ton euclid trucks for t1m summers with Lincoln, I believe he says here. He got four days up there and he was blamed for running over an acetylene tank and put out again. lie is now in the mood for revolution. This will cause a war after a time because there are more every year &oing on lvelfare.

Well perhaps this man's story is justified, perhaps it is not justified. But who is looking into thesei How can a man r,e-t a job at Churchill, be there four days, be blamed for doing somethinp wrong on the site and be shipped out without anybody lookinr, into the matter for him'! This man 1 suppose never came across a union representative up there. hiwrc are the union representatives?

Every man who gets dismissed or sent out of Churchill Falls, surely the union should have a man who looks into the matter for him, and tf they think he has a justified agrievance that the union should process a grievance under this collective agreement. This is not happening. See here is this r,lan sent back because he is blamed for running over this a-cetylene tank. Nobody investigates it for him. Nobody goes to the employer and says why is this man bein~ laid off, and look into the matter. ·'the employe! will probably say well he is not cor:1petcnt to drive this particular equipment.

And if the union representative thinks he is they can look into the grievance, nut this apparently is not beinR 7179

]b. June 15 1970 Tape 1241 D@ge ·4, done. I do not want to be unfair about this matter but I have had too many peo~;le comin!j to me and '1-TritinE ru~ letters and I am sure all the members have. There is something '-Irong at Churchill Falls. There is every appearance that the unions, under this collective agreement. are not being pugnacious enoup,h.are not being active enou!:h on behalf of the men who are going up to Churchill Falls. Now that man should not be vri tirtg me. That man should be on to the union. 1\nd he should be having a grievance looked into by the union.

But he is not and I do not know why he is not. I suppose he did not even know there was a union up there. Another man from Gamba. He r,ot drunk. at the hotel. I would like to comment on the Churchill Falls Project. Worked from Hay 1, to Dec, 6, carne do\~n to Churchill Falls to come home and r,ot dru(lk in a hotel. The manager called the R.C.H.P. \vho took him and locked him up. The next morning he had to pay them $170 plus $20;$190, then he came back home and they will not take him back up there.

Suppose he did get drunk in the hotel, he was on his way out after being up there six months;. and caused some trouble. Is that sufficient7 I mean if a man comes out of the bush after being in the bush for three months, or six months \vho is to be geing/surprised if he gets drunk in a hotel and causes some troublef You might have more sympathy,if you ovn the hotel or had something to do with it, with the hotel than with the man. Whether it is the hotel or what it was I do not think that is enough to bar the man from Churchill Falls Project, unless there is more to it. MR.

SHA.LLWOOD: Unless he starts a racial - MR.CROSBIE: Right. There may be some other kind of reason. Here is another one a pipefitter, heavy equipment operator. Now here is a man from Salmomier who says he is a heavy equipment operator and he was employed to go to Churchill Falls as a heavy equipment operator. When he got there he was not used as a heavy equipment operator just as a labourer. The foreman, he says. who were french CanadiansJoperated the heavy equipment. He says he and the 7100

lb . June 15 1970 Tape 1241 other Newfoundlanders were not given any over-time. The foremen were given all the overtime. So when the company kept them on at labourers rates of , pay he left and returned to St. John's. Now thatJ of course, can be easily looked into and checked by the union or somebody at Labrador Affairs. Well we are all ~etting some kind of complaints like that. So there is something very much wrong ~r. Chairman, with this labour situation at Churchill Falls.

Ihe same situation, the same kind of contract is entered into for Stephenville and there will be the same kind of one for Cotne by ChanceJif and when that goes ahead. This government has made those kinds of agreements possible, or the !louse has, and there is good sound reason for them; But I say that this !louse and the government should do something to ensure that the rights of the men are protected, should ensure that the unions are properly looking out for the men, should put somebody to work on behalf of the public to see that justice is being done up there.

I have had man after man come to me and not one of them have been near the union to process a grievance. MR. S~IALL\WOD: That is right . ~:R.CROSDIE: They probably do not know about the union. ll!R. SHALL\.JOOD: That is right • MR.CROSBIE: And the union is just leaving them on their mvn. So I do not know if the Pre1nier might be able to tell us what the views of the government are,no matter what the'government feels might be, the government might be able to do about it. But apart from Churchill Falls there is a problem to day between the ordinary member of the union and the big uniil>n.

I do not care how angry the unions ge't about it~that is true all over the United States ;. lt is true. The small man who is a member of the big union is just as \.:eak vis-a-vis that union executive as he is against his employer. And ' ' that is an area that governments are going to have to deal with. 7181

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1241 page 6. I do not believe that we have had an explanation yet from the minister of ,lustice on the situation of the two Trembletts from Grand Falls-\Hndsor 1~ho were taken from Churchill Falls and who had ·to appear at court there June 11, Magistrate's Court. No1v this :is another example of hir,h-handcdnessJ Nr. Chairman. NoVI it does not matter ~o;hether Fred Tremhlett and Gus Tremblett are as guilty as can be,tltat is neither here nor there.

It does not matter whether they are quite p,uilty of having a racket on l!ay 24, up at Churchill Falls,when they are on holidays, and g'?t involved 1 into a fight or whatever it was. The point is they should never have had to put up hail and then have been taken from Churchill Falls and put on the next plane,before they are even found guilty, .i.f they were goine to be found guilty, and shipped out of Churchill Falls before June 11. They are black listed. They cannot p,et back to Churchill Falls.

Now the minister of Justice was looking into it and all the minister of Justice can look into is to get the story from the RCHP, what happened in that respect. But that illustrates the authoritarianism that is rampant on the sit1 : at Churchill Falls. Even if the RC~U' did not put them on the plane the security personnel of the Churchill Joint Venturers Organization put them on the plane and sent: them out, l..lthour,h they had the trial set down for June 11 at Churchill Falls in Hagistrate 's Court.

Now it does not matter whether these two gentlemen are one hundred per cent guilty. the whole thing is wrong•'!hey should have been left at Churchill Falls until their triAl came then if they were convicted and their employer no longer wahts them and has good grounds for that 1 then perh1"PS ship them out. Of course if their employer no longer wants them and dismisses them they have to be sent out. There is nothing else for them to do at Churchill Falls. But that should not happen,Mr. Chairman.

Who is protecting the rights of the ordinary citizen of Newfoundland at Churchill Falls'l Whoever it is, is not,in my view. is not doing his job. He should have been screaming blue murder, the ,., 1 (I •) t ur..

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1241 page 7. day that tho: -; e men were shipped out. In fact he should have stopped it. Or he should have been on to the minister of Labrador Affairs who :;;hould have stopped it, or unto the minister of Jm;tice. And we all know that is an involved situation there and a great construction site and you have to keep discipline and you cannot have unwanted people landing there. ilijt it is repugnant .for a Newfoundlander not to be allowed to even r.o on some of his own soil up at Churchill Falls.

I remember reading a piec'e in the paper how the other day about,/you know, tourists cannot even see Churchill Falls because.,if you land on the airstrip,they will tell you t;o take off again a couple of hours later. You know that is something the tourist depar~ . ~ent should be doing .This is not relevant to labour, unfortunately. h'hrm I sa\~ that

article it reminded me of that you know, organized flights into Ct,tUrchill Falls,We are not going to be able to see the Falls,oncc the poYer, once everything is ready and the power production starts, Churchill falls will disappear. If it could be arranged by the government or somebody they should be flying in plane loads of tourists every day into Churchill Falls, eircle the Falls and have a look at itJ Lancl and have a bite to cat and take them ·' ',!Ut · again.

Somebody is missing a great chance there. be These are some of the general points that would/interesting to get a conw1ent from the acting minister of labour or from the Premier. l1R. S~1ALL\VOOD: Mr. Chairman, I think I will go out now and see Lhe doc tor to find out what is wrong wi tit me. Because I am finding myself too much in agreement with the hon. gentleman,so there has to be something wrong with me. I am getting nervous, I ara feeling uneasy. Yes, I ar,rec. I think I ar;ree one hundred per cent 1 perhaps the first time in my life, with the hon. gentleman.

He himself does not disagree.! think,with the idea that on a great construction pl'oject that is r,oing to last two or three years or even more.if it is going to last six or eight or ten years, it is of life and death importance that there be no strikes or lockouts, that the 7183

lb . June 15 1970 Tape 1241 paee 8. job go forvard and that it gets done. This is of life and• death 1.r.tportance, The paper mill at Stephenville is now subject to a project labour contract, for the duration of the construction. The contr<~ctor, Sir Robert }\acA1pine and Sons of J:ngland, the other day in Stephenville met in conference Hith the representatives of all the construction trades unions. There and then they negotiated and si gned a labour agreement for the duration of the construction, The whole period of construction .of that bis mill, that there '"ill he no strikes or lockouts.

The rates of pay, with escalation everything bui1t in,have been put down in writing alld a contract made. ThJs is the only tHi.ne that can be done with a .great project that bas a time limit set to it, t:bat has got to he ready by a certain date, You cannot have the "'hole thing dislocated anu put in an a~1ful condition of demoralization and · maybe financial disaster by a big strike or a lockout or any kind of a labour dispute. You cannot have it.

There are certain trades and industries,once they are operatinp,,they are going on where you could have a strike for a month, or three months or six months, without economic or financial disaster. llut you cannot have it in the construction period. For example, take Churchill Falls. In Churchill Falls the one thing there had to be before there could be any construction was a contract for the sale of the power. If you did qot have that you could not go ahcad,you could not let any contracts for construction, If you did not have the po•:er sold in advance.

And having it sold in advance meant having it sold for a long period of ysars,at fixed rates and built in escalation or deescalatian as the case might be, 'fou have to have that or you would not raise the capital to build the project. You had to have the contracts, the prices had to be set,and then you went out and you raised the money. lfuen you raised the money you raise it at certain fixed rates of interest, which you have to meet. You pay . back the principal and you pay the interest. That is fixed. These are fixed charges : that have to be 7184

11.>. June 15 1970 Tape 1241 page. 9. met or the thing goes into default. So, therefore, you have to have certainty, you have to have absolute assurance that the pro,ject \lill be built, it will be completed, it will be ready .bY a certain date, it will go into production on that date and then by a later date some more production will start. Then by a later date still more production will start, the whole thing spaced out so as to meet the need to service the debt wheu the need arises. Therefore, I suppose the hon •. gentleman \dll agree that a project contract makes sense and is absolutely indJ>pensable.

I do not think there is any room for argument about that. I uo not think there is any room to argue about that, that great industrial projects that are costing hundreds of millions of dollars ,which must be borro~1ed at fixeu rates of interest, must be completed on time so that the interest payments can be met. I do not think there is any argument on that. But here now, Sir, is what happens. And it has happened at Churchill Falls, and is bound to happen in any big project going more than a couple of years.

A contract for one year might be different but \~here it is a lonr, term contract what happens is that the unions,having their union contract, having their closed shop, having their contractural relationsllips set up and fixed and permanent (or say ten years, the unio1\ then gets lazy, or the unions. I forget how many unions there arc in that contract, at Churchill Falls. N!LCROSBIE: Ten or twelve - }!R.S~L\LL'1WOD: Ten or t\lelve or more of the Luilding trades unions are involved. They have siened their contracts. :fR.CROSlHE: Thirteen dm.:n there T:lirteen, nm;, "'hat have they got to worry about?

H'hat effort have they got to r.;ake1 They have their contract. It is good for ten years. \,'hy should they stir themselves? Compulsory check-off.When you r,o 7185

lb. June 15 1970 Tape 1241 page 10. into \vork the first thing you h~ve to do is join the union and start paying your dues 1 no matter who you are, or "1here you come from. The union does not care. As soon as you p,o to '-'OrK you are a member of tile union. If you are an electrician and you are not a member of the union before you go there you have to join before you go to work.

A plumber, a painter, a heavy equipment operator, office worker, a cook, a carpenter anythinr,,whatever you are, you have to join the union of your trade and you have to start paying dues, "1hich are deducted from your pay and passed over to your union. Sitting quite pretty. So the union is well fixed. They are sittinp, pretty. There they are, absolutely secure for ten years. \-Jith what result? _ With this result that they grow lazy. Letharp,ic. They do not have to get out and fir,ht for their membership. They do not have to get out and perform.

They do not have to get out and convince the different workers that they should belong to the union. They do not need to. There is no need to do it. They are members. They cannot leave it. They cannot get 'lo:ork unless they stay members. And as long as they are worl~inr, the union dues are docked from their pay and passed over to the onion, So what has the union got to worry - about? What( '71C6

June 12, 1970 Tape 111242 Page 1 JW MR. SMALLWOOD: Why do they have to stir their stumps? Sir, in case after case, just as the bon. gentleman said, he has letters. So have I had letters, hundred and I had hundreds of men, perhaps not hundreds, not far from a coup!~ ot ' ·men who have worked at Churchill Falls and have come back and come in to see me at my office, or at my home, Hundreds of men have written me and maybe as many as a couple of hundred have come to see me, after coming back from Churchill Falls. Not men looking to get down there. They number thousands.

Thousands literally - literally thousands of men, who are trying to get work down there, have come to see me, but at least a couple of hundred who have been there working, and come back and came in to see me. And many hundreds of others have written me, and they write me from down there. I get letters from workers who are now working in Churchill Falls. And again and again I have asked the question, what did your Union do? Ah, Union! "I never see any of them.'' Well do they not have stewards, do they not have sh6p stewards, and representatives there stationed? Do they not have a grievance committee?

Why do you not take it up with your Union? "useless, I never saw them. I never see them. I do not hear anything from them." Now that is one weakness in this project contract. Terribly important factor in it, and an awful lot of the disconteftt in Churchill Falls or in any such project,. construction project,would be eliminated would not have happened in the first pla~e if this were done. Because if it were done, it would be an object lesson to the employer, to the contractor, to the people who cause a lot of this trouble.

It would be an object lesson to this foreman or that foreman, or this general foreman or that general foreman, f:o this superintendent or that superintendent, It would be an object lesson to th:f.s contractor or that contractor if the Unions were alive and alert and on their feet, and defending their members - every case that cropped up. Then there would be fewer cases cropping up. Mr. Condon, the Newfoundland Government's representative, is stationed right in Churchill Falls. Conwny- from Grand Falls. Here is a man who for many years of his life was in that very work, labour relations.

A very level-headed man, a fine Newfoundlander. one True he is only~man, and he cannot take the place of thirteen Unions. He 7187

June 12, 1970 Tape (11242 Page 2 JW cannot be there - no one man can be there to do the work that thirteen Unions should be doing, who are drawing down the dues - it would be interesting to know ( I must make a mental note) make a note and we will find out how much money a month is being deducted from the workers in Churchill Falls. We will get the figures. We will find out how much a month is being deducted for the Union dues. How much? How much money are these Unions deriving from their memberships in Churchill Falls?

I will bet it is enoup,h to pay the cost of every Union, maybe not every Union - there will be some ~mall Unions - there will be some Unions with small memberships there. The hon. Minister of Social Services says it might run to $80,000 to $100,000 a month - I do not know. But we will find out what it runs to. But certainly it is enough to enable the Unions jointly if not each individual one of the thirteen Unions to maintain a good force, a good orBanization there on the job, to which every worker with a grievance could go - and which would fight for the cause of every individual worker.

In this I am in complete agreement with the hon. member for St. John 1 s \~est. I absolutely agree with him. I am angry about it myself. I have been disgusted about it, and yet on the other hand, if you ask me, should the project contract be abandoned, I would say no, God forbid- God forbid that a vast projectJcosting a thousand million dollars, one billion dollars - the greatest project of its kind in the history of mankind. There has never been anything like it in the world.

Never any power project the size of Churchill, and that is only the Upper Churchill, a thousand million, and it will take another five or six hundred million to do the Lower Churchill. This 'is going to be - the like of this the world has never seen, and you cannot have strikes there. They would be utter, utter and irreparable disaster. The thing would have to go into default.

It would be a frightful, frightful situation~ Sut there is the price we are paying - that you are not getting real protection for the individual trade union hand, working, whether he is a Newfoundlander or Qubecer or whatever he is. lie is not ··really getting the kind of protection, of fierce protection,as the bon. gentleman says - going after the jugular. Instead of going after my jugular now, the hon. gentleman this afternoon is going after the jugular of the contractors down there, which is as it should be. I will join him, and we will make a joint attack on the jugular of the contractor!! down there. 71GB

June 12, 1970 Tape (/1242 Page 3, JW So that will be one elephant and one mouse working together in harness. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I have,from time to time, expressed some criticism of the Department of Labour over the years, and I compared them on some occasions to the undertaker rather than the doctor or the nurse. My feeling of a department of labour is that there should be a constant contact with various phases of labour and labour unions, not wait until somebody decides they are going to walk out, and then go through arbitration and conciliation, so on and so forth.

I believe that-this department has the power to nip a lot these things in the bud by being rather dynamic,if you like. We have been talking about the labour situation that my bon. friend from St. John's West brought up. And the Premier has agreed wholeheartedly. Now every member of this House is receiving correspondence from people who have worked at Churchill, are working there, are trying to get in there. Now it has been said and I will just repeat that when that project agreement with the Unions was brought forward - I think everybody in this bon.

House supported it, although we felt that we were giving the Unions a free ticket,if you like, for the duration which I think was eight to ten years of this agreement. And it has been stated and I will just say it because the same thing was in my mind, and I hope I am not being unjust, because what is happening in Churchill to me seems to be going on behind a huge highboard fence. We hear things coming out and so on and so forth. But there does not seem to be any communication back and forth between Government,as far as we are aware.

We know Tom Conway was sent down there three or four years ago, but what can one man do in Churchill Falls? I do not know exactly what his terms of reference are. I do not know.if anybody,feels they are being t~eated unfairly, goes to Mr. Conway - MR. SMALLWOOD: They have a right to. MR. MURPHY: I do not know if Mr. Conway reports back to the Department of Labrador Affairs.

Basically I do not know whohas the responsibility of Churchill Falls, whether it is the Department of Labour, the Department of Economic Development, the Department of Labrador Affairs - who in the first instance would I go to - what minister would I report to if I came back and felt that I waa not treated fairly? Mr. Conway is there, and I cannot fail '"1 J ("l (j I . G.

June 12, 1970 Tape #1242 Page 4 JW I cannot understand why there is not some type of grievance committee established right there on the spot, not back here where somebody has been thrown out, and he comes here and beats on forty or fifty doors like the case that the hon. member mentioned again this morning, that the han, Minister of Justice is dealing with. Anybody who has been connected, in the early days of the establishment of the Air Force -U.S. Air Force at Goose Bay, I was visiting there three times a year, 4nd anyone could see what was happening - there bad to be discipline there, very strong discipline.

I remember Drake Merritt>when they were doing the big job on the base there, and they had the Airplane Lounge or Club which was called the BullPen. And they had a huge wire fence around it, and the boys went in there for their· beers. It was outdoors and they were allowed so niUch a night, and some of the boys were coming out around the park-and reaching in through the fence to get an extra few bottles of beer to bring back to their bunk houses. So then they erected another fence about ten, twelve feet away, so that you could not get access to this inside fence.

Now I know they had a problem with many hundreds of men there. But these Unions, and I say I do not want to be unjust - I do not know just exactly what they are doing. We know they must be taking thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars out there.

It is a guaranteed income for them for the next seven, eight years, whatever it might be, But·I feel they must have some responsibility, But if they are not taking it~ lf they are not taking that responsibility, who in the final analysis is responsible for fair treatment to all Newfoundland people~ It bas to be this House of Assembly or the Government-if you like, but this House of Assembly basically are the ones who must take the final responsibility. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. gentleman let me interrupt him?

Perhaps it is too late now to do this to the Upper Churchill, but certainly it is not too late to do it in connection with the Lower Churchill. There will be a similar project-labour contract with all the ~nions and the contractors for the Lower Churchill, which is half a billion dollars. That is a tremendous 71~0

June 12, 1970 Tape (11242 Page 5 JW project. The Government can insist - 1 do not know what authority we have, but we can insist, and if do not have authority we can come back to the House and ask for the authority by legislation to be enacte~ for the purpose - to insist that there shall be written into that collective labour-project contract. provision for precisely the thing we are talking about here this morning. This should form a necessary part of the Union activity on the job - if they are there, let them perform - let them render good service for the dues they receive. MR.

MURPHY: 1 think that makes sense, and that is perhaps a little extra­ ordinary in this House what the Premier says, perhaps it may be too late, but let us deal with the facts now. Let us deal with theory which is the Lower Churchill or DREE - we hope it comes. But let us deal with what is happening now, and it is not going to be - we are in the middle of it now as I can see. There are another two or three years that we must deal with this Upper Churchill - whatever it may be I am not quite sure.

I just say two or three - maybe four - well four years is a long time to let such a condition exist, as is in vogue at the present time. So I would urge- I do not know who has the ultimate responsibility, whether it is the minister of Labrador Affairs, the Department of Economic Development, the Department of Labour, or who it is that could go in there and say to someone and say, "look this must stop, this must stop now." I meart we can do it with the hospital workers.

We can do it with everybody, but when we come up against something like this, where we are being treated most unfairly, and I feel that, most unfairly 1 the ordinary working man. I 'have heard of cases~ the same way as the hon. member quoted this morning, fellows hired on for some kind of a job with a trade or something else. He gets down there and he is given a job as a janitor or something else. The other day,I think I mentioned in this hon. House, a gentleman just came back and he was chatting to me - well they wanted thirty-five carpenters in Churchill Falls, and only five from Newfoundland.

God alone knows there are enough carpenters - Is there any communication with these companies~ Honestly, I cannot understand it. I cannot understand it. It is a Newfoundland project. It is on Newfoundland 71!J1

June 12, 1970 Tape II 1242 Page 6 JW soil - MR. SMALLWOOD: The law says it must be Newfoundland labour. MR. MURPHY: But what is the good of a law - it is like a minimum wage and all the rest of it. Look we can have forty-five volumes of laws. And as for a policeman, it is just as good to have nothing. Just as good to have nothing. This is the point I am making.

This Government,through the years can be so vehement on so many things, but when it comes down to the gut issues, like we have today, where so many hundreds and thousands of our people are looking for work - and they go in there and it would be just as good for them to go to Siberia. This is my opinion. It is just as good to go to S iberia. I asked the Minister of Welfare the other day - that perhaps for him to dig in to the thing and see if he can get some jobs for chronic unemployed - who must be rotting out inside, disintegrating, through futility of walking this town and other to'lo.'tlS, not only St.

John's but all through the Province, and cannot get a job. And here we have hundreds of jobs being filled, and again, and I cannot understand it, If 1 am down theretand this may be wrong) but if I am down there and I send back a name of a cousin or an uncle or what­ ever the case may be, they will get a job. But unless you ha~e a buddy down there, it is almost impossible to get in. Look would someone, and I ask the Premier now, kindly let us know what is happening. I am not saying that the Frenchmen are running it, I do not want to. But when you are in ignorance in this hon.

House of what is happening - I am at a great loss to understand just what is happening. Someone must be running the outfit down there. Some­ one is getting jobs, but how in Heaven's name do they get the jobs? How do they get them? I know over here in the Argyle building Mr. Graham and Hr. Downton must be crucified because I have sent)the past few weeks, a hundred or a hundred and twenty trademen in and out. But I think it would be just as well to give them a half dollar out of my pocket and tell them to go down and watch a movie in the afternoons. At least they could enjoy themselves.

Now this is a Province that is on its knees looking for jobs. We cannot afford to lose not even one single job. Whose responsibility is it? I do 71~2

June 12, 1970 Tape 111242 Par,e 7 JW not know. Quite frankly, I do not know what the deal is. The Premier expressed great re8ret the other day, when the figures, I think it was sixty or ~ixty- two percent Newfoundlanders, I am not sure. MR. SMALLI~OOD: Sixty-four - MR. MURPHY: But the other thirty-six. We know there are people who must come from outside. MR. SMALLWOOD: The manual is seventy-five percent Newfoundlanders. MR. MURPHY: Sometimes you just think it is just as well to go up on top of the Southside Hill and shout out to the ocean. This has been going on for years and years.

You know after eight years in this House, when I look back I think I have said the same thing about labour about five hundred times. And it is like in the great canyon where your echo comes back - it :l.s just wasting your sweetness - MR. SMALLWOOD: On the desert air - MR. MURPHY: On the desert air. For as many a rose was born to blush unseen But generally on labour, Mr.

Chairman, I think that we are in a stage, not only here in this Province, but in all the world I think -well it started after the First World War, and in the Second World War, the hon, member brought up again equal pay for equal work, men and women. This has been fought for, not only here in Newfoundland, but I think ali over.

But I think basically, what is happening, and again this is only my opinion, just through observation, thae .. there are many jobs that could be filled by men - and they would have to pay them a dollar twenty-five, but they are filled by women - and I was rather amazed a few months ago at the percentage of married women in the labour field at this time. And these were not widows. These were married women whose husbands are working and we can easily see - I know when I came out of school in 1929, there were some women working - there were very few married women.

They were mostly doing office work,as we were trained to do at that time - Commercial and typing and so forth. But on Water Street and in the stores, there were very, very few married women working. I think this perhaps too was an affect of the way we are all living, and as the fellow said, 71~3

June 12, 1970 Tape (/1242 Page 8 .JW it is not the high cost of living today, it is the cost of living high that is killing us all. And in many cases, perhaps,we cannot criticize them. A young couple, married, they buy a new home· - set up a sum of money, and the wife has to work to pay off the mortgage. But the whole question of labour and employment is a very, very serious one - as I say particularly in this Province, where we are cut off from the Mainland of Canada.

Even now, in the great City of Toronto, where everybody and his brother thought they could jump up there and get a job overnight, it is becoming very, very difficult because of the migration from the Maritime Provinces and perhaps other parts of Canada. The minimum wage, I think we are all pleased to see that now we have the minimum of a dollar twenty-five, and a dollar for women, which is a considerable increase over the past few years. But it is just the escalator thing, or where you are just on a treadmill, where you are trying to keep up with the cost of living. I would like to see 1 Mr.

Chairman, this Department of Labour, and I think in the first instance it would be their responsibility, to sort of dig in and particularly like Churchill Falls, and possibly you might have the same thing now with the great mill at Stephenville, the same thing is being worked out- I think the agreement was signed some three months ago - AN HON, MEMBER: How about three weeks ago? HR. MURPHY: Three weeks or a month ago. The same thing is happening. But in fairness to the men; I am not against Unions.

I was in favour of Unions for years myself, but I do not think we can allow the men to be forced to join a Union, and then have the Union do nothing for them, like has been happening. You just pass the Union over X number of dollars on a silver the platter, give them~right to have ·the dues on a checkout, but then sit back and say all right, where do we go next? So I believe Mr.

Chairman, on this, on the heading on Labour generally, I believe some one has to get out, stir things up a bit, either the Economic Development, Labour or Labrador Affairs, as I said before, and find out just what is happening in Churchill Falls. I know we sent a committee "down last year. I think the hon. member for Trinity South, my colleague here, and I think it was the hen, minister himself. And they came back and said they could not see anything that was wrong there, and

June 12, 1970 Tape 01242 Page 9 JW we answered their report, I think they were honest enough in it, but basically~ underneath, there is some little thing happening that whether a committee,as such, can get their fingers on it, I do not know. I do not know if they are aware that this committee coming in represent the House of Assembly - we are sort of brought around and so forth and so on, and different things done.

But I certainly hope, and I think that is the sore part today in Labour circles - it is Churchill Falls at the moment, and as the Premier said, in other agreements coming up, we know now what to look for, Lower Churchill or anywhere else, and we will stop perhaps some of these little breaches that are in these agreements. I think that is all Mr. Chairman, I have to say on the subject. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, I will delay the Committee, just to say that the bon. member, my Parliamentary assistant, tells me that when they were down there last year, they had about 100 cases brought to ·them.

And they examined these 100 cases, one by one, and did not find one solitary one of them justified. 100 complaints - complaints by 100 different people - they did not find one that could be justified, which is a very staggering fact. Now what I wanted to say is this, that between the seventeen or eighteen days, between May 27 and June 8 - no, that is not seventeen or eighteen days - ~~elve days.

In.the twelve days between May 27 and June 8, 196 persons were recruited in Newfoundland for Churchill Falls,weie hired on, 196 persons in those twelve days, and in the same twelve days there were eighty-one others hired on,outside Newfoundland. 196 in Newfoundland and eighty-one outside, because, and I am quoting the precise words now, "Because qualified persons were not available locally to fill these skilled positions." So these eighty- one jobs were evidently skilled jobs. Now on that date, June 8, there were 5,249 jobs at Churchill. 5,249 jobs. Of these, 3,353 were filled by Newfound- landers.

Now that is manual and non-manual combined, In the manual, seventy- five percent of the jobs were filled by Newfoundlanders. And the non-manual - thirty-four percent. That _is engineers, superintendents, general managers, the administrative, supervising and engineering personnel - of the contractors were and of the project managers, Thirty-four percent - Newfoundlanders and seventy-five percent manual, making an overall average of sixty-four percent - 71~5

June 12, 1970 Tape Ul242 Par,c 10 JW or sixty-three point nine. Rounded out at sixty-four percent or thirty-three hundred - and fifty-three Newfoundlanders. Now that was the position. I am not happy about that. I am unhappy over the number - eighty-one taken on, in those twelve days - eighty-one taken on from outside the Province. I am unhappy over that. In fact I am more unhappy over the · fact that they evidently could not get those eig\lty-one jobs filled with Newfoundlanders., that they had to go outsid .e to get them filled. These are skille .d jobs. 71!)6

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 1 MR. SHALLWOOD: ~ne day - twenty years ago, it would not have been 196 hired in Newfoundland and eighty-one outside of Newfoundland, it would have been the reverse would it not twenty years ago? It would have been eighty-one hired in Newfoundland and 196 hired outside of Newfoundland, or worse than that. It is a bit better than it was. It has got to become a lot better yet. MR. ~ruRPHY: Who procurred those figures, •....• MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh, I get these figures delivered to me, would the hon. gentleman like to have them? MR.

HURPHY: No, no, no, the fact is now, are these sent to the Hinister of Economic Development, the Minister of Labour - MR. SMALLWOOD: They are sent to me as Premier. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on this same point, the ones who sympathize with the contractors and so on who want to get a job done as efficiently as they can, and at the best price they can, because they will probably have to bid pretty fine to get a contract up at Churchill Falls, hut how does one judge - who is doing the judging as to who are qualified men - the contractors there? MR. Sl-1ALLWOOD: Canada Manpower. MR.

CROSBIE: Right,and how they exercise that judgment determines of course where they go to get the men.

Now there is probably no way of doing it, but assume that they can get more qualified men from other provinces, which they probably can and heavy equipment, and certain things like that• Now how are our own people ever to get any experience in this line, if we cannot insist on so many of them being hired on in any event7 I mean,when the job is bidden, when Brinco or whoever it is figures the job, I think our Government should tell them, " all right, gentlemen, you are going to have to add in' a $1 million or $2 million. if is a big. hundreds of millions of dollars a job. you are going to have to make an allowance of two and a- 71n7

June lSth. 1970 · ·Tape 1243 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: half to three percent, or something or other like that, for men that you are going to have to hire from this Province, who need experience. They have gone through the training school at Stephenville and so on, but they need experience. Now you are just going to have to allow for that, and make allowance to your contractors for that.

Because how are the men graduating from Stephenville ever going to get experience, if they cannot get up to Churchill Falls, or if they cannot get taken on at the Stephenville Project or some other project like thata So, I think, that we should insist that one of the things that is · going to be done is on these jobs / that our men are going to be trained on the job, or a certain number of them are, and some allowance will have to be made in the figures for that to be done. Now I would like to see, Hr.

Chairman, I do not care if it is a special committee or a committee of one, someone appointed from this House to go up again to Churchill Falls and have another look at this situation. The other special committee '.rent up a year ago, and I think it is time now for another jaunt up to Churchill Falls. A one man committee i~ all right, as long as it is the right person g~es up, or it could be two or three, to go up to Churchill Falls and spend a week or two. MR. SMALLWOOD: Perhaps then send the same three. MR. CROSBIE: Send the same three or- · 'HR. SMALU~OOD: They already have the background. MR.

CROSBIE: But it is time for them to take another look, and the thing should be properly publicized before they get up there, and they should go out .to visit the jobs outside Churchill Falls itself. AN HON. HE~fBER: They did that last year. }ffi, CROSBIE: They did that last year, well they should do it again. MR. S}~LWOOD: I will undertake to recommend to my colleagues that we bring a motion before the House here in full, not the committee, but the House itself appointing that delegation to go again. ~m. CROSBIE: I think the members last year were, St. John's East Extern, 71.~8

June 12th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 3 HR. CROSlHE: Trinity South, and the Hinister of Labrador Affairs. And I think, Hr. Chairman, if I might suggest, that the member for the district should be added to the committee too. I do not knot-r whether he has trouble getting in or out of Churchill Falls these days. But - HR. SHALLWOOD: If I thought he had trouble getting in or out 't would be all in favour of putting him on the committee, otherwise, I would not be so keen. MR. CROSBIE: Well we know for a certain reason the Premier may not be so keen, but after all he is a former union man, and he does represent the district.

And if an election is called while all of these people are -working up there, these are his constituents, and he should have a special interest in them. So I would suggest that he should be included. I would like to know,for example, if the Premier could find out, I do not see any reason why the Government could not, how many grievances, this agreement is effective from August lOth. 1967 to August 31st. 1975, and three years have now gone, well not quite, August lOth. 1970 will be three years.

I would like to know, for example, how many grievances have been processed under the grievance procedure under this collective agreement? I would think if the union.is doing its job up there, it would be darn near 500'or 1000 grievances. t-1R. SNALLHOOD: I will undertake to find out. MR. CROSBIE: All right. MR. SMALLlmOD: The official -.; the Chief Administrative Officer of the department is making a note of my request, but we will find out. MR. CROSBIE: It would be very interesting to find out how many grievances were started through the grievance procedure ?

And how many went right through the grievance procedure and how many grievances went to an arbitration board? If any. MR. SMALLWOOD: We will find out. 7109

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 4 lfR. CROSBIE: You see Page seven,

Section 10-03 says the aggrieved employees shall present his grievance uith or without his steward to his foreman orally within five working days after the circumstances giving arise to the grievance having occurred or originated. Well how does a man present his grievances if he is being shipped out of Churchill Falls - you knm~, he is told you are terminated today, and you are shipped out tonight or tomorrou. How is he ever going to st~rt the grievance procedure going1 and when he gets back to St. John's~to his home, he probably does not even know where the union office is.

So it would be interesting to have that information. The Premier said he would get it. I would also like to know this, that when the security people or the R.C.}f.P. or whoever, shipped men from Churchil~ Falls - it is not voluntary on· the part of the men, in otherwords they are dismissed or they are shipped out involuntarily, does that first have to be reported to Mr. Conway or some representative of the Government of Newfoundland before those men are shipped out' For example, did Mr.

Conway know that the two trembletts were going to be shipped out, before they were shipped out or . well do they have to report to our representative before they take men and ship them out involuntarily? I think that they should have to. MR. SMALLWOOD: I will find·that out too. MR. CROSBIE: They should have to report to him, so he can look into it, and if he thinks there is something wrong here he can phone his minister or get hold of the right official and have the matter checked out. I would also like to know if the Premier could find out how many men do these unions have up in the site?

There has to be,under the agreement . there at least has to be one man there. I forget which

article that is. Now whether each union has one or whether there is only one there. MR. SMALLt.JOOD: I know they do not each have them. MR. CROSBIE: Well how many permanent staff do these unions have on the site? 7200

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 5 MR. SMALL\\OOD: One man they have had there is this ~hap, this Irishman, what is his name? MR. CROSBIE: Well to my mind ~ MR. SMALLWOOD: He is an Irishman, and he has been in to see me a half a dozen times. MR. WINSOR: Gray. MR. SMALLHOOD: Gray. He is the one who is suppose to police it for the unions. HR. CROSBIE: Hell, I would like to find out, Mr. Chairman, if we could, are there any men permanently on that site employed by these unions, and if so how many? HR. SNALLWOOD: He will find that out. MR. CROSBIE: And further, Nr.

Chairman, if it appears that the union is doing an unsatisfactory job, if that is confirmed. There is nothing to prevent a vote being held by the workers up in Churchill Falls to decide on some other union to take over the same agreement. Under the Act 71 in 1968, as I read it, during the two month period immediately proceeding the end of each year of the Term of the Agreement, there can be application made by other unions to replace the unions that are there, they probably have to take over the same agreements, or they would have to take over the same agreements.

And, I think, if the Government finds an unsatisfactory job is being done or this House finds that we should encourage the,steel workers or whoever it might be to come under that clause, and have a representation vote taken up at Churchill two months before the end of the present year of this agreement to see whether the workers wanted to be represented by a different union or unions.

Or if that cannot be done, if the situation continues to be really unsatisfactory that the Government pass an amendment next year, so that the Government can place .another union or unions or make some arrangements for other unions that are going to replace them. 7201

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 HR. S}L\LLWOOD: The mere threat to do that should work miracles. MR. CROSBIE: Right. PK - 6 Well that is all I wanted to say on. that particular point. The Premier never said whether there is a study being done on }!inimum Wages in connection with women. MR. S~~LLWOOD: We are. MR. CROSBIE: The economic effect - there is a study underway. MR. SHALLHOOD: We are studying that. ~tR. CROSBIE: And the Government has nothing in princip~e against the same wages, I understand. }IR. SHALLWOOD: We have nothing in principle, we are very much in favour of it in principle.

We are a little bit worried about it pragmatically. HR. CROSBIE: Right. Now there is one more point that has come up before, the Premier may not be familiar with it probably, that is the question of this man, Et11art Shea. The Minister of Labour I know was looking into this business of Ewart Shea from Glenwood. Now every member of the House has had a letter from Et-1art Shea from Glenwood. A.~ _ HON. l~ffiER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Workman Compensation has to, everybody under the sun has had a letter from Ewart Shea.

And this is a man. without going into it too long, who says he was working at Glenwood for Bowaters under very dangerous working conditions, and that he was injured there several times. And in September of last year one evening he quit work when he was nearly struck with some wood from the Mechanical -what is it? Tie mechanical- SOME liON. ~IE~ffiER: Has he withdrawn that letter now? MR. CROSBie-~ I do not know, I have not heard that he has - Mechanical slasher. Anyway he alleges that - An HON }!EMBER: Inaudible. · MR. CROSBIE: Because nobody was doing anything about it.

Well he has not written to me to that effect yet, I have got a big thick file here. 7202

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 7 MR. CROSniE: Anyway what Mr. Shea elected is that he ~omplained about these workinr, conditions, left his j.ob one night when he was almost struck by a piece of wood from the mechanical slasher. They would not take him back the next day - improvements were made after his employment was ten1inated. The union will not take up his cause for him, although he had a letter from them earlier on agreeing with his complaints, and saying that they were justified. And Mr. Shea is still out of work,_ the last letter I had from him was April 18th.

The Hinister of Labour has stated that he will, if an enough information is made available,grant a magisterial inquiry into to my complaint. Now it is too long in lenght to go into, any more than saying that - MR. SMALLWOOD: I will bring it to the Minister's attention when he gets back. MR. CROSBIE: It appears and it might be entirely wrong that Mr. Shea has suffered an injustice, Bowater do not agree that he has, but I wrote Bowaters asking them about it. And they said they are quite justified and as far as they are concerned he can take them to court, and sue and that is all well and good.

But for some reason a union will not process his grievance, although he has a letter from the union earlier on, saying that his grievances were justified. His complaints about work were justified. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is this the Carpenter's Union? ~m. CROSBIE: Loggers Union. MR. SMALUWOD: Carpenters. MR. CROSBIE: Carpenters - It is another example of an area of possible injustice, Mr. Chairman, and I think, the House should do something about. MR. SMALU~OOD: That· is what an ombudsman would go into~is it not? MR.

CROSBIE: But he could not, the Government would not be involved, the ombudsman would not go .into this, because the Government is not directly involved in it. So if it could be checked. MR. SMALLWOOD: I will have it checked. 7203

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 8 MR. CROSBIE: And to see what the position is, as far ~s the Department of Labour is concerned. t-m. SMALLHOOD: A notice has been made, and we will check it. 1-IR. CROSBIE: Right. lol'ell the only thing there is that they had an earlier letter form the union saying that his complaints about the working conditions are correct. And they will not say why they are not processing his grievances. If that could be checked, Hr. Chairman. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, I just want to have one comment to inform the Honse of our representative up there, Hr. Conway. Mr.

Conway is a man, as the Premier said, at Grand Falls. very familiar with unions,having worked sometime But at Churchill Falls, of course, the numbet is increasing. First when Mr. Conway went there he could contact eve~an on that site in an evening at the cafeteria or tavern. But most of the people who have grievances come to Mr. Conway. And Mr. Conway in turn directs them to the union. And very often, Mr. Chairman, men are relucant to go to the union. We discovered that, fellows are relucant to go to the union.

But when they get out here of course they say, I have scores and scores of men come to see me giving reasons why they had to leave Churchill Falls. I have always asked them, have you gone to your union? No, it is no use to r.o to the union. But, Mr. Conway, makes a report every week to us, and a copy goes to the Department of Labour. On motion 1601 to 1602 carried. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, 1611-02 - Mr. Chairman, I intented making a fe~ general comments at the beginning but they have been covered by other bon. members and I 'decided I would wait until this item came up to discuss; personal case.

I do so with some reluctance, because I do not feel that each individual case should be discussed in this House. I do so because I feel I have no other recourse. The gentleman in question has agreed that I could use his name, while I will not, I will pass it on to the proper

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 9 MR. HICKEY: authorities. Despite of the fact that he is receipt of assistance, he has agreed that his name be used, but for that reason, Sir, I do not wish to use it. I think he has the . right to keep something of that nature private. It involves a complete injustice to this man, I think, he has been approximately three years or thereabouts attempting to get an ans~1er to his problem. He has never succeeded as yet. AN liON MEMBER: Inaudible. ~m. HICKEY: No, it is labour. Just as he was a member of the union as he thought, paid into a union for quite a number of months.

He was subsequently informed that he was not a member of that uinon. He could never find out, and he has not found out to this day why he paid in this money. He is now informed that he cannot join the union, lecause he is too old. He cannot get a job because he is.not a member of that union. So, Mr. Chairman, everyway that this man turns there is something against him. I can personally vouch for him to be one of the finest workers there is in this Province. This man has any amount of initiative and courage and determination, because if he did not, he would have quit long ago.

He has literally hounded the people in the Department of Labour, not for a job necessarily, but to get an answer, one way or the other. He has been unable to do so. Nr. Chairman, I have been dealing with this man for something like two years.on this matter. I wrote the Hinister of Labour, while he is not present, I think, I should point out that the minister, as far as I am concerned at least, did what he could. He passed it on to his deputy and I felt that we would have some clarification at that point. However, such was not the case. The question is still unanswered. The man is still unemployed.

He is still in receipt of welfare. There are many jobs around in his trade that he can take. He has worked for almost twelve to fifteen years in this trade. 7205

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 10 MR. SMALLl.'OOD: I will have the matter looked into immediately. I will undertake that now. I will give the hon. gentleman my undertaking that this will be looked into at once. }IR. HICKEY: Very good, hut I would like to cover one other aspect of it, and the Premier I hope will look into this with even more determination. As I said I have known about this matter for two years - HR. SHALLHOOD: There is another matter now. This is a second matter - MR. RICKEY: No, it is the same. The same case. MR. SMALLHOOD: This will be looked into. HR.

HICKEY: I reluctantly bring it up in the House. But what sort of makes me a little irate, Mr. Chairman, the fact that this man cannot see the Deputy Minister of Labour . Cannot see him. MR. S}~LLWOOD: Tell him to come and see me. MR. HICKEY: He visited the office. MR. SMALLWOOD: Tell him to come and see. me. HR. HICKEY: l.'ell, Hr. Chairman, the Premier is a much busier man than the Deputy Minister. MR. S.HALLHOOD: Mr. Chairman, that is why I am busier, so many come to see me. Tell him to come and see me. MR. HICKEY: Fine, I will do that. And maybe we can arrange an appointment for him.

Now one other thing, Sir, his name was recommended to be sent to the Power Commission by the Deputy Hinister. His name was given to the Deputy Minister along with another name. I find on checking with the Power Commission that other name, the name of the other man went to the Power Commission butthis man's name did not. I think . this is pretty dam serious, if public officials are ~oing to trent any member of the public in this kind of way. I think something should be looked into, . something should be done about it forthwith. MR. S}fALUlOOD: All right, it will be done. MR.

HICKEY: I would like very much, Sir, for the officials to take this 7206

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 11 MR. HICKEY: into account and I have done everything I can to get this man back into his trade. And I t-10uld ask the Premier to do anything that he ca~· I understand there are vancanies at the Power Commission at Duff's, or at least there is one. that he could have had filled and he was denied the opportunity to fill that position. MR. CIL\IRMfu~: Shall 1611-02 carry? Carried. Shall 1611-03 carry? MR. MURPHY: }!r. Chairman, Workmen's Compensation Board, I notice that in a recent letter from the \~orkmen~s Compensation, I note that we have a new appointment to the Board.

Is this appointment made by the Premier or anybody, or is it advertised - appointments to the Board? MR. S}~LLWOOD: They are my privilege to make a selection and to recommend my selection to the Cabinet. And the Cabinet's privilege to accept or reject my recommendation, that these Boards, mostly the Premier selects Boards, Deputy Minister's and Boards. Because they are essential part of carrying out the policy of the administration. MR. HURPHY: The point that I am trying to make here labour, and we are talking about so~ial justice, Churchill Falls etc.

Here in the Workmen's Compensation Department we have many competent civil servants who for years have worked with that Depar~ment, and when something like this comes up we bring in someone from outside. I can never understand on this thing, because I am sure that the gentleman,with all due respects to him, has no special talents for this job, and as I understand,previously he was appointed to another department within in Government, brought in off the street and given a fairly decent job- How we find that the vacancy, I think, it was the vacancy left by Mr.

John Maddigan, has been created although his actual, I do not know if it is the actual position. But here we ·have someone taken in from outside and we have many employees, civil servants, I do not know if they are civil servants, but employees of this Board who have given faithful service, and I am just wonderin~when we speak of< social justice and labour rights and everything else, how there is anybody 7207

June 15th. 1970 Tape 1243 PK - 12 JIIR. HUR.PHY: in any department, and this is one here that has been brought to my attention, bow does anybody ever hope to reach a plateau in the Civil Service where they are there fifteen, sixteen or seventeen years whatever the case m,igbt be, and someone is taken in from outside with no talent, I will not say special talent, but I d,oubt whether he has any talent to deal with this thing, and these other employees are by-passed. I fail to Wlders ,tand it.

I have brought it up on many occasions, an,d I would not help with this one, because I was not even aware of it. until the I had some correspondence with\Workmen's Compensation Board, and I saw this new name on top ,of the letterhead. And I made a few inquiries and I thought the gentleman was working with the Power Commission, but the gentleman apparently 720B

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 1 MR. MURPHY: apparently he was with the Power Commission and brought in to put in this other job and there was some overtones to it that I do not like. I think it is not conducive to proper labour relations or any other relations within the Civil Service.

So if this is going to continue with filling these jobs, I do not see much outlook or much hope for career civil servants,as such,to ever attain any stage of attaining a status and perhaps the money that goes with it, because I am sure that a member of the Board is being paid more than a great many people who are perhaps doing the leg work in the Board and what not. I do not know, it is just a little bit disturbing to me, Mr. Chairman, that this type of thing carries on,because we talk about setting up special legislation for the Civil Service and so on and so forth.

And I certainly hope, the quicker it comes the better,but that these gentleman, the NGEA particularily,will take up one of these things which is so vital 1 of people being hauled off the street and shoved in the key jobs.with much higher salaries. I know if it happened in a lot of companies the same way that unions would bring it up. so .. as I say,I am just a little bit disturbed to sec the Civil Service being used for the foisting in of certain people with only certain qualifications, which are not qualifications pertaining to the forms of the duties that go with the job. MR.

CROSBIE: On the Workmen's Compensation Board, Mr. Chairman. There was a question (517) which was answered,about the relationship of the Workmen's Compensation Board with respect to drugs or other medical supplies purchased from drug stores by persons eligible for W~rkmen's Compensation, and the answer was tabled some time ago. I got a call, Mr.

Chairman, some three or four weeks ago, late in the night,from an irate workman who had been injured that day,while he was working, of course, so he is eligible for Workmen's Compensation, He was five hours before he could find a drug store that would supply him with the drugs,on the credit of the Workmen's Compensation Board. He went to two or three drug stores, I forget where eventually he got the drugs, The answer to the question confi~s that there have been complaints from time to time by workmen on compensation who are unable to get prescriptions filled.

The answer says, "On contacting our office they have been advised 72U9

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: the na~es of certain drug stores which will fill the prescription ru1d to the best of our knowledge when this has happened we have had no further complaints from the workmen". In other instances the workman has called the Loard from the drug store that has refused and on the advise of the Board that the claim has been accepted then the dru~ store fills the .prescription. In tl1e meantime there is a problem and the Board is currently discussing the matter with the Pharmaceutical Association. Now whatever the reason is, Mr.

Chairman, drug stores generally claim that they have to wait far too long a time to be paid by the Workmen's Compensation Board for drugs they supply to Workmen's Compensation people or people who are on Workmen's Compensation. That answer is May 29th, so I wonder if the Workmen's Compensation Board is in the process now of getting this matter cleared up? Because I remember this poor chap was really incensed that he would have to spend four or five hours going around from drug store to drug store before he could find one that would give him the drugs on the credit of the Workmen's Compensation Board.

His employer was in a great rage because he had been paying his contributions every year for years and here was this workman when he got injured and could not get these drugs. As a matter of fact I think the man finally had to pay for the drugs himself, if I remember correctly. So could we have some information on that? MR. SMALLWOOD: I will have it looked into. It makes me angry to hear that any drug store is refusing to fill a prescription because he has to wait a little on the Workmen's Compensation Board for payment. It sounds like an absurd and utterly outrageous position for a druggist to take.

Some of them are getting so rich that they can be tord All Mighty but maybe they will get their claws clipped after a while. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, there is just one other question I would like to ask but,in response to the Premier.! think we have to be absolutely fair to druggists or grocers or anything else. I brought it to the attention of the Department of Public Health a few months ago that the drU££ists and many of them in town particularily and I quoted three or four that were owed sums of $6,000. over a period of three or four months. Now this is all right. The 7210

JunE7 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JH - 3 MR. MURPHY: ------- Premier can say, "Look, you cannot refuse drugs" but these same people pay a social security assessment to the Government and had to have their social assessment in hy the 20th of next month or they would have had to pay interest on it. MR. SMALLWOOD: How many firms in Newfoundland wait two, three, four, five months for payment, for God's sake? MR. MURPHY: How many? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, how many? Everyone. MR. HURPHY: Not too many. MR. SMALLWOOD: Every firm in this Province. MR.

MURPHY: Not too many today, even with Water Street today and you will see at the end of thirty days there is a carrying charge today which I think is absolutely unjust. MR. SMALLWOOD: Go and look at their books. MR. MURPHY: If we are in business let us do business. Do not let someone else support us, let us be a self-operating business. MR. SMALLHOOD: That makes me sick, that really makes me sick. MR. MURPHY: It may make the Premier sick. MR. SMALLWOOD: To hear a druggist refusing to fill orders from the Workmen's Compensation Board.· MR.

MURPHY: The same thing happened to the grocers last year carrying the great Department of Welfare for months and months and they said, "Look we do not want anymore" their margin was so small. The druggist today operate, I think, on a fifteen per-cent on cost to the Government. They do not charge this great prices - Ah, the Premier may smile. Let him check his Public Health Department. MR. SMALUIOOD: Fifteen per-cent. MR. MURPHY: Let him check his . Public Health Department, he will see. But the point I was going to speak on was Workmen's Compensation and I had a case the other ~ay and I gave the ~on.

Minister, who is not in the House, the correspondence on it.and this was people that were injured. How 1 had·a case of a truck driver at the St. John's Municipal Council, working with the council 7211

June 15th, 1970 Tape 12411 JM - 4 MR. MURPHY: for twenty-five years, injured his back and went on Workmen's Compensation and they gave him a fair deal. His average wages were between $80.00 and $100.00 a week depending on overtime. Allright he was being treated there for so lonr, and then the doctor says, "All right, we can no longer carry you on Workmen's Compensation, in our opinion you can work but you can only do light work.'' Now here is a truck driver,which is heavy work, loading and unloading trucks, and he can only do light work.

So he goes back to Council and says, "Here is the recommendation" and Council said, "Boy, too badl There is no light work here l.re can give you. You can come back as a truck driver" So they offered him, I think it was something like $40.00 or $45.00 a week pension, take a pension. Now here is a gentleman with six children, one of them in University, $45·;00 a week. I do not know what the answer is to it. I must say that Mr. Brace, the Rehabilitation Officer with Workmen's Compensation, is tryi~g to place this gentleman but it is a very difficult job. I am 'mndering is there any answer to this?

Is there any compulsion on a firm and in this case to the St. John's City Council employing someone that is injured,to provide something for him, at least to give him a decent wage to live on,as he was injured on the job and the Workmen's Compensation did their dutyi They carried out and paid him after examination. But once you reach that stage where the doctor says, "You are no longer disabled as under the Workmen's Compensation Board" where does he go from there? Is there any moral, legal responsibility on the employer to carry that man on at a living wage, not $40.00 or $45.00 a week? I am just wondering.

Actually the Minister is not here but I gave him the correspondence, He said he would look into it and he has been very co-operative on it. But I imagine this is one of mapy cases that the Workmen's Compensation Board is dealing with,But to me it seems pretty sad when this young man,who was in his early fifties?and as I say,with six children and one of them in University,has to now try to ~xist or survive on $45.00 a week,through no fault of his own, through no fault possibly of the Workmen's Compensation Board. But can that Board go any farther,after this letter comes from the doctor and 7212

Jun~ 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 5 MR. MURPHY: say, "Tili s man is no longer eligible for his full Workmen's Compensation7'! MR. SMAI-LIVOOD: If the hon. gentleman will send me his name I will have it looked into. MR. ~ruRPHY: The hon. Minister has all the correspondence but I am Just wondering if there is any new development on it1 MR. SMALLWOOD: I have no new development on it, no. MR. MURPHY: The hon. Minister is looking into it for me. On motion 1611(03) carried. 1611(04) Conciliation Board: MR. MURPHY: Conciliation Board, is this a permanently established Board or is this a vote to set up a Conciliation Board?

MR. SMALLWOOD: No, it is set up for each individual case. MR. MURPHY: Boards in other words, I vote for Boards. MR. SMALLWOOD: Right. On motion 1611(04) carried. 1611(05) Industrial Enquiry: MR. SMALL\~OOD: What is Industrial Enquiry? To investigate and report to the Minister on industrial matters or on existing or anticipated disputes or differences between employers and employees. The terms of reference are set out in each individual case. On motion 1611(05) carried. 1611(06) Memorial University:· MR.

SMALLWOOD: What is this total vote here, I notice it is $4,900., is this a labour class or something at University? MR. CROSBIE: It is the history of the labour movement. MR. SHALLWOOJJ: Oh that it what it is, is it? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know. AN RON. MEMBER: I do not think so. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is it, is that what it is? It is the balance that we owe. MR. CROSBIE: For the history of the labour movement, is it? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. On motion 1611(06) carried, 7213

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 6 1611(07) Labour College of Canada: MR. MURPHY: This Labour College of Canada, is this where Ministers go and exchange ideas and things like that? MR. SMAJ.UlOOD: Well, it is operated by_ the CLC and eight other Provinces and the Federal Government have contributed and we are. On motion 1611(07) carried. On motion 1612(01) carried, 1612(02)(01) carried, (02) carried, (03) carried, (04) carried, (OS) carried. 1612(03) carried, 16]2(03)(01) carried, (02) carried, (03) carried. 1613(01) Apprenticeship: MR. MURPHY: On apprenticeship, is this work in conjunction with, is this Mr. May's?

MR. SMALLWOOD: No, Mr. May, of cou·rse, is vocational but this apprenticeship is done in conjunction with him and with his program. MR. MURPHY: I can never seem to get the two of them unravelled. We have vocational training then we have apprenticeship training On motion 1613(01) carried, 1613(02)(01) carried, (02) carried, (03) carried, 1613(03)(01) carried, (02) carried, 1613(03)

(03) Instruction Costs and Supplies: MR. MURPHY: Instruction, where does this take place, at the College of Trades and Technology? MR. SMALLWOOD: In the different schools, yes. In the different Vocational Trade Schools. On motion 1613(03)(03) carried. On motion 1614(01)~ ~m. CROSRIE: Which one are we on now, Mr. Chairman, Minimum Wage is it? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1614(01) MR. CROSBIE: I just want to ask there, Mr. Chairman, I notice that in the Minimum Wage Branch there is an increase in employees from three to six this year, does that mean there is going to be greater activity? MR. SMALUmOD: Yes, we are getting to be more determined to enforce the law, more enquires, more cases. 7214

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 7 MR. MURPHY: How closely does this Department work with the Social Security Inspectors who go in and possibly do the same job, they examine books, tax and so on, is there a coming together of the two groups? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know but I would doubt it. I do not think so. MR. MURPHY: Because they preform much the same function of going through books, one collects tax and in the meanwhile they examine payrolls and so on and so forth, I presume. I am just wondering if there would be - MR. SMALLWOOD: There might. It is a good thought.

On motion 1614(01) carried, 1614(02)(01) carried,(02) carried, (03) carried, (04) carried. On motion 1615(01) carried, 1615(02)(01) carried, (02) carried. On motion 1616(01) carried, 1616(02)(01) carried,(02) carried, (03) carried. MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman, on Block Provision for salary increases and new posts, I move that the old title of $16,200. be changed to read $29,200. for an increase of $13,000. and that the total for the Department of Labour be changed from $381,000. as it reads at present to $394,000. I take it, Mr. Chairman, that there have been no change in the various sub-heads on the way through. MR.

CROSBIE: The Premier is going to get us certain information which you will give the House when you get it, is that -? MR. SMALLWOOD: I have asked the Administrative Officer to make notes of it and get me the information so that I can pass it on to the Committee. On motion Block Provision, as amended,-carried. On motion total Department of Labour, as amended, carried. DEPARTMENT OF SUPPLY AND SERVICES: MR. SMALLWOOD: Now the purpose o.f calling these two relatively speaking lighter Departments is to leave the two heavier ones, Highways and Community and Social Development for the last. 1801(01): MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with Supply and Services there have been a number of questions tabled from time to time but I do not know if the 7215

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 8 HR. CROSBIE: Minister is now in a position to answer them. For example, there is question (418) in connection with the financial year that commenced April 1st, 1969. What was the total cost to the Government in connection with the operation of Government-owned aircraft, who operated these aircraft for the Government and for what purposes were such aircraft used?

(2) Apart from the operation of Government-owned aircraft during that same year,what was the cost to the Government in connection with all other aircraft transportation activities of the Government, for what purposes were such aircraft services used by the Government,and who provided such aircraft services?

(3) Does the Government own any spare parts in connection with aircraft owned by the Government and if so, what is the value of all spare parts owned by the Government? That was one question along those lines but there are a number of questions that have been tabled. (414) -

(1) What was the cost to the Government . of the Twin Otter Executive aircraft and all engines, equipment and spare parts used in connection there~~ith?

(2) During the last financial year what was the cost to the Government for operating the Twin Otter Executive aircraft?

(3) In addition to the Twin Otter how many other aircraft are owned by the Government outlininr, the type and make of aircraft, the purchase price, and outlining ·the purposes for which the aircraft are used? Now there are a large number of questions tabled asking for this kind of information both by the official Opposition and by ourselves, the Liberal Reform group, none of which have been answered yet. So one would assume that the Minister is going to answer them all now when his estimates are before us, at least one hopes that that is so and he could let us know before we leave1his item.

There is another question which I do not think is answered yet in Supply generally (391) -Apart from purchases of equipment, goods or supplies purchased by the Department of Supply for departments of Government, list any agencies of the Government, public institution . or institutions or agencies of any description for which the Department of Supply acts in the purchase of equipment, goods or supplies? As far as I know that one is not answered either. So it is a simple question, who else does the Department act for 7216

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 9 MR. CROSBIE·: apart from Government departments, what institutions or agencies of Government does the Department act for in purchasing equipment, goods or supplies? MR. NOLAN: The answer to that is none. MR. CROSBIE: The answer is none,is iti You just act for the Departments of Government, you do not act for the Workmen's Compensation Board or -? MR. NOLAN: Yes, we do on consulting and things like that but the only honest answer I could give on that really is none. MR. CROSBIE: There is another interesting question there about motor vehicles, I do not have the number,

(1) During the last financial year what motor vehicles owned by the Government were loaned to Cabinet Ministers if so, to which Cabinet Ministers and for what period or periods of time during the year?

(2) If motor vehicles are so loaned who meets the operating expenses?

(3) Were any motor vehicles owned by the Government loaned to or used by senior Government officials from the rank of Assistant Deputy Minister and up and, if so, to what senior officials and for what periods of time during the year? What was the mileage travelled by each of such officials in such Government motor vehicles during the year? MR. NOLAN: With your permission, Mr.

Chairman, I did refer that question,aa I recall,to the Minister of Health who as you know was responsible and is responsible even up to this moment,until it is officially transferred to the Department of Supply and Services,and since this motor vehicle division is· under the Department of Health I have ask him and he has agreed and he may have the answers already, for that matter, to table in this House in answer to the. question that is posed by my han. friend opposite. MR. CROSBIE: Does the Minister have any information now on these aircraft costs and so on for us this morning? MR.

NOLAN: We have, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, the answers I would hope to the questions that are coming up from the Department. We are hoping to contact the people concerned so we can get this information and in that way I will be in a position to pr~vide the information to the hon. member and, of course, also to this House. I wonder if it would be in order for me at this time, Mr. Chairman, to table a booklet that I have here which is quite 7217

Jun': 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JM - 10 HR. NOLAN: substantial in volume because it is for the use of the staff in the Department of Supply. Actually we have been working on this for quite a number of months and very hard indeed in preparing 3 but what 1ve have is written proced•Jres which will clearly detail our new purchasing practjces and they are designed for the improvement of the system. We have many grey areas in the Department of Supply.

In the former system, I do not think they were ever fully defined so that the operating staff,such as our buyers: were completely aware of the proper way of processing say requisitions, the examination of tenders, the awarding of purchase orders and so on. You are probably all aware that until now no written procedures existed for our purchasing practices,which as I mentioned earlie~ I belive. in this House, were based so ley on top-of -the -head knowledge and oral instructions 1 which often change without explanation.

Now this written manuel that I would like to table is not the ultimate in protection by any means and it will be improved and amended as and when new ideas and more effective methods become known to us. There are quite a number of innovations in this manuel,which are soon to be implemented, and new forms are now being designed, I should inform the House, which will contain certain stated conditions which have been developed to ensure that Government is receiving a fair price from its suppliers.

One of three contractual conditions will require a certificate that the price offered to Government is not in excess of the price offered to the suppliers'most favoured customer for similar type seririces or goods etc. I feel sure that the hon. members of the House will be very pleased with the proposed procedures and will welcome their implementation. And with your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to table this information for the information of hon. members. Before continuing on,incidentally,with our estimates for the Depart- ment,I would like to just give a brief outline 1with your permission, Mr.

Chair- man, of the operations of the Department and my proposals for the implementation of standard purchasing procedures that I referred .to. The Department of Supply and Services,as it is now known,is the equivalent of a fairly substantial business operation with about $16. million but what you must bear in mind is ' 7218

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 JH- 11 HR. NOLAN: -------- the fact that in the last year or two you have had certain boards, hospitals and so on lJho have set up their own corporations and as a result th•!Y are doing their own purchasing. TI1e Department now processes about 600 forms every day or 12,000 forms every month with an estimated total of 14•l,OOO forms ~uring the 70-71 fiscal year or financial and these 138,0no forms wlll fall into three main classifications. You have 24,000 requisitions from departments, there are 72,000 tenders to suppliers and 42,000 purchase orders.

The new purchasing procedures 1which are in the process of being implemented,arc contained in the manuel which I have now tabled and a

summary of the procedures is being prepared for distribution to all firms and persons who are doing business with the Government,for their information and guidance,and I would hope that this will be of some assistance to them. In this connection I would like to direct particular attention to our new practice of supplying unsuccessful tenderers wit-h a copy of the actual order which was issued to the successful tenderers. Now this is something, to the best of my knowledge,this is the first time it has ever been done and I would hope that the House would welcome this new innovation.

This action, I think, will not be taken automatically but will be institutedimmediately upon the receipt of a request in writing from the unsuccessful tenderer. I think this is important. - I believe the hon. Leader of the Opposition was absent when I mentioned that and just for his information I would like to say again that when a supplier is not successful in being awarded a tender in the Depart- ment of Supply,upon a written request,he will be forwarded a copy of the successful tenderer containing all the necessary information.

And as I state~ this is something that has not ~een in force heretofore and I would hope that it would be helpful to the people doing business with the Government, The request should be addressed to the personal attention of the Deputy Minister of Supply and we would be more than happy to provide the necessary information. It is my opinion that this will be a help. Now we have had consultations,as I indicated earlier, with representatives of various departments of the Government of Canada who have assured me that you cannot have uniformity without guide lines and accordingly 7219

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1?.44 .nt - 12 MR. NOLAN: the new procedures -manuel that I have just tabled has been developed over the past several months with their assistance and under my authority. It will take a year or more, I think, for the Department to fully implement all the proposals but already substantial savings have been realized by our new policies of bulk buying, with the purchase of acceptable substitutes and the standard- ization of product needs. An example of bulk buying, if I may, Mr.

Chairman, would be the consolidation say of tire purchases,for example is one that comes to mind, for the heavy equipment used by the Department of Highways. As most of the hon. members know,that Department operates four main depots throughout the Province and in one particular case my Department co-operated with the Department of Highways for the consolidation of three-quarters aggregating about 430 tires, I believe, into one order for 430 tires with . resulting savings of about $2,300 on this one purchase alone, We bought them all together • .

An example of puchasing an acceptable substitute would be the purchase of miscroscopes for the Department of Education. In this particular case my Department recommended the purchase of less costly units which could be suitable for their needs and our recommendation in this instance was accepted with a savings over $1,100. on this one purchase. An example of standardization of products needs would be the purchase for example of plastic bags for waste disposal.

In reviewing requests for this one item my Department ascertained that only~department was using a standard size and that other departments were requisitioning special sizes which required the manufacturer to produce special runs which obviously were much more expensive. So by liaison,in this case with the Departments concern,the use of standard sizes was introduced and by virtue of a larger volume which was created the price of the product dropped from $57.20 per one thousand to $24.55 per one thousand.

It will be the future policy of the department to devote all of our efforts to find other areas of purchasing operations where similar savings are likely to he realized. On motion 1801(01) carried, 1801(02)(01) carried, (02) carried, (03) carried, 1802(01) carried, 1802(02)(01) carried, (02) carried, 1802(09)(02) 7220

June 15th, 1970 Tape 1244 carried, 1803 (01) ·carried, 1803 (02) (01) carried, (02) carried, 1803(03)(01): .JM - 13 MR. MURPHY: Perhaps some of these forms that are being sent to prospective tenderers, there are quite a number of items on these forms and some very intimate information must be supplied to the department to make it possible to understand what the value of your stock was at the end of the year and this type of thing. What is the idea of this?

I mean after all if I want to tender on something and they say to me, "How much did you sell last year and how much have we got in stock this year?'' I do not think that is the business of the Government what my stock was last year at the end of the year and what my inventory was and so on and so forth. MR. NOLAN: With respect, Mr.

Chairman, if you are proposing or anyone is proposing to do business with the Government and if they are supplying a product they have to provide services, they have to have the p.-<rsonnel, they have to have the stocks readily available to provide the services that are demanded ~y the Departments concerned. It is for this reason that this form, the hon. Leader of the Opposition mentioned, is required 7221

June 15th., 1970 Tape ·no 1245. Page 1 Mr. Nolan; if the department were suspicious of the fact •that we were not getting the best prices from the firms concerned that the Government would do business with, On the Federal scene what they would do is send in auditors and if you were not prepared to make that information available, then you simply would be removed from their tender lists. We certainly have not gone that far. I believe it is a little more specific though that there may be one or two items in that particular paper forwarded to the firms concerned that are, at the moment, causing the han.

Leader of the Opposition some concern, I did talk to somebody in his office recently on that and referr~d them to my deputy minister. MR. MURPHY: I cannot understand the minister's statement. I forget how he worded, but you call for a tender, and I tender so much money and then he says he investigates to see should I tender cheaper. That is rather an absurd statement to make. MR. NOLAN: I am simply stating, Mr. Chairman, I did not say what we were doing.

I said what would be required if you were dealing with the Federal Government and that is that if your markup is such that the department is not satisfied, they have in cases sent in auditors to the firm concerned, That is their practise. MR. MURPHY: After,open tenders were called, MR. NOLAN; They have often done it yes. MR. MURPHY: I mean I can understand this Government,r 'crhaps lin the past may not have been too careful with open tenders and O?£ning in public.

They might check on prices but if you come out and ask for a tender, well I imagine that there would be more than one person asked to tender more than two, three, four, five, six possibly. MR. NOLAN: In Nova Scotia it would not be more than ten. Here it is up to fifty or more. MR. MURPHY: I think everybody has a right to talk tender, that is in business. 7222

June 15th., 1970 Tape no 1245 Page 2 Mr. Murphy. If I am handling for convenience •• MR. SMALLWOOD: If he is not on the tender list. MR. MURPHY: Why are they not on the tender list. This is what I cannot figure out about it. MR. NOLAN: This is the easiest place in the world to get on a tender list, Mr. Chairman, and I resent the implication that the hon. Leader of the Opposition - all one has to do is simply write a request to the department concerned - this is not my policy.

It has been in effect for years and you are put on the tender list, You cannot do this in other provinces that I know of, Nova Scotia being one. ~ffi. MlTRPHY: You are not put on the tender list. Let us face facts. MR. NOLAN: You are. MR. MURPHY: MR. NOLAN: If I wanted to put three people on the tender list that is it. Right. MR. MURPHY: But if I advertise for public tenders, everybody that can read or hear can tender. Now I am not talking about a $50 or $60 - I am talking about things that run into thousands of dollars, public tenders called for it1 not send out tenders to five people that I know .• MR.

NOLAN: We do not send out,. MR. MURPHY: Well I will not know that. How do I know? How do . the public know? How do the public know? MR. SMALLWOOB: He is not saying it. MR. NOLAN: I have said it, you know. MR. MURPHY: The minister said it. We have heard lots of things said, but is it actually ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Is the hon. gentleman doubting a minister's word? MR. MURPHY: I am not doubting anybody. I am just speaking facts •• 72~3

June 15th., 1970 . Tape no 1245 Page 3 ~~~~~~~-- He is accepting the word. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. HR. MURPHY: SMALLWOOD: I am just speaking factual facts.that a public tender is •• That is a fact! That is a fact! MR. MURPHY: That is a fact that the minister will send out tenders. MR. SMALLWOOD: Right. MR. MURPHY: Tender forms. ~~~~~~~---Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. MURPHY: I will accept that, but I am just saying would the minister send out tender forms to three, four, five, six of his friends. Is this not something that could possibly happen? I might be the biggest supplier and not receive a tender form. MR.

NOLAN: That does not happen, MR. MURPHY: I will take your word it does not. I will take the minister''s word that it does not happen. MR. NOLAN: That is good of you. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is very kind. MR. ~ruRPHY: But there will always be the element of tloubt that I can ask two people for tenders and the other seventy or eighty do not know that tenders are being called. Could that not actually happen? MR. NOLAN: No. MR. MURPHY: It could not happen. MR. NOLAN: How could it happen, Mr. Chairman, if in fact the procedure of the department is for any firm, Tory or otherwise.

It has been standard for years and years and years in the department. It is nothing new. It is not peculiar since I have been there and if you want to get on a tender list, you simply write in, Mr. Chairman, and the tenders go out to you. As a matter of fact, if a criticism is necessary what has happened is that it has been abused by the fact that every man and his dog has gotten on the tender list, and I know some instances where tenders have gone out to people for months and months and years and years, and they have not even tendered.

This is the real scandal if one wants to know,to my mind the abuse in this case. •• 72:24

June 15th., 1970 Tape no 1245 Page 4M MR. MURPHY: I do not see any scandal, I do not think there is any great cause to get upset, if a tender is placed in the paper :ike the St. John's Municipal Council does. It advertises tenders for a different item. Everybody that sees this tender has a right to tender for it - tender for it. What is wrong with that~ MR. SMALLWOOD: So it is so where tendering is asked for by public advertisement, anybody may tender, but a large proportion of the purchases are made on tenders sent out in the mail to those on the tender list - ~s many as fifty different firms and more, MR.

MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, there is the room for criticism. Tenders are sent out from the department to whom? Everybody interested. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, everybody on the list. MR. MURPHY: You might take the minister's word for it, but I am saying this: MR. SMALLWOOD: The minister does not send them out. MR. MURPHY: The great criticism is that tenders are not called and open in public. Now how difficult is it to do these things, and I am not referring to a small item of $40 or $50.

I know there was a certain supplier of a product here a few years ago, and he tendered he told me at cost for different items, and he was in the same business as another company that got every bit of that particular type of business. Now could I persuade him that tenders were awarded on price, when he tendered at actual costl MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Chairman, the bon, Leader of the Opposition heard me describe not more than five minutes ago a procedure in the Department of Supply whereby, if fifty people tender on something or a hundred and fifty, and they are unsuccessful, all they have to do now is to write to the Deputy Minister of Supply, ask for a copy of the successful tenderer,which I know of no other province in Canada where this is done and it will be mailed to you on written request. Now how caft the hon. member 72:25

June 15th., 1970 Mr. Nolan. object to that? Tape no 1245 Page 5 MR. MURPHY: 1bat is the best news I have heard in a long, long while. I think it is very practical, because only five months ago, I had occasion - someone phoned me and said he did not think that - •they tendered on something, and they thought they should have gotten it. I phoned the minister's department. I asked several officials, and they were not permitted to disclose to me who the successful tender was or what price it was, Now we have the situation where all this uncertainty, all this doubt can be avoided.

If I am not successful, I will write to the deputy minister and he will write me back that the order was placed with so and so and the unit price it was, Am I right? MR. NOLAN: Exactly, MR. MURPHY: minister. Well this answers a lot of problems. I thank the hon. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 03~01 carry? Carried. Shall 02 carry? Carried. Shall 03 carry? MR. CROSBIE: On 03, Mr. Chairman, advertising - $65,000. Would this cover all adver'tising that the Government do in newspapers in the Province or is this just advertising by the Department of Supply alone? I presume this is all newspaper advertising. Tender calls and so on.

MR. NOLAN: For the most .part no. I should- the information is not simply tender calls. It would be advertisements for the different departments concerned depending on what they would need to advertise for. It would also include the tender calls that the hon. member mentioned but not simply that .• It is for all the departments concerned. Yes. MR. CROSBIE: It is all newspaper advertising. MR. NOLAN: Yes, it is also for news staff. MR. MURPHY: It is not for Tourist Development? 7226

June 15th., 1970 MR. NOLAN: No. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, Tape no 1245 Page 6 MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 03 carry? Carried. Shall 04 carry? Carried. Shall 05 carry? MR. CROSBIE: On 05, Mr. Chairman, last year according to the revised estimates, $378,000 was spent on office furniture. The year before, according to the Public Accounts, there was $120,489 actually spent on office furnit~re. This year the vote is only $23,400. MR.

SMALLWOOD: We are going to make some of them sit on the floor now instead of giving them desks and chairs. we are going to give them little cheap cushions, They can just sit down like taylors and do their work that way. MR. NOLAN: I wonder if I could offer a word of explanation on that •• MR. CROSBIE: There was a heavy office furniture buy last year, was there? MR. S~IALLWOOD: Like a goul room. We are going to have a lot of goul rooms. MR.

NOLAN: Well the provision,as the bon. member ~ointed.out,of $23,400 for the current year, represents a very drastic cut,as he said over $350,000 as compared to the estimates for 1969, 1970. However,the main part of the reduction is due to payments totalling $278,000. This was in respect of the Sir Richard Squires Building at Corner Brook and the Corner Brook Attts and Culture Centre. Nevertheless, the substantial savings of approximately $40,000 are still expected this year in ccmparison to a normal year's purchase.

Again we expect to achieve the savings by insisting that the department purchase only the most necessary items and our inventory records will help us in determining essentiality and possibly identify areas of oversupply which could lend themselves to transfer action to meet new demands. What we are doing in effect"E going into inventory far more extensively than we ever had before in Government. My own feeling is that often times we are not totally familiar with 72~7

June 15th., 1970 Tape no 1245 Page 7 Mr. Nolan what it is we possess in the way of furniture of this type and the other and we are making a good start on that. We have done quite a bit so far. MR. MURPIIT: T~ere must be quite a bit of wear on the furniture in the Cabinet Room in the Sir Richard Squires Building. I guess there will be a ~ig vote next year to replace that, MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, it is getting worn out. We just moved some old furniture out and put into that Cabinet Room - no new furniture - all old. MR. CROSBIE: Is there going to be a new cabinet to go into it. That is the question.

We have the new furniture. MK. C~Aiind4 . 05 ~Xi~~. MR. CROSBIE: On 06 - this has nothing with the Health Department - these delivery expenses - nothing to do with babies? MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 1804-01 carry? MR. CROSBIE: On 1804-01, Mr. Chairman, is the heading: Aircraft Operation, which have now been taken over by the Department of Supply and Services. In other words, as I understand it1 all the aircraft operations of the Government are now centred in the Department of Supply and Services,which is a move in the right direction because t