Manitoba Hansard — 23 May 2001 (Sitting 34, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-34

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 34- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 23, 2001 (Revised)

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, lion. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACII, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, lion. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward IIICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, lion. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord. Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, .lim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, lion. MIIIYCHUK, MaryAnn, lion.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSIIONOFF, Tom PENNER. Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, lion. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, llarry SCHULER. Ron SELINGER, Greg, lion. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott. lion. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTIIERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWClllJK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carrnan Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.I'. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.P. N.D.I'. P.C. N.D.P. I'.C. N.D 1'. I'.C. N.D.P I'.C. N.D.P.

2119 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 23, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Spea ker, I beg to present the petition of J. Cornwall, D. Cornwall, J. Butler and others, praying that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Selin ger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Spea ker, I beg to present the petition of Chad Wrixon, Darlene Tallaire, Linda Manson and others, praying that the Prem ier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construc tion of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Spea ker, I beg to present the petition of Norma Carswell, Doug Carswell, Louise Van De Mosslaer and others, pra ying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Vivian Barbour, Irene Karr, Pat Dunmall and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construc tion of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particula r childhood leukemia, to the proxi mity of power lines.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legisla tive Assem bly of Manitoba request that the Minis ter responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. *( 13 :35) Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cler k, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

2120 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 2001 THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up app roximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the peti tion and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up app roximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Mani toba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bi11 1 8-- The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that leave be given to introduce Bill 18, The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia pension de retraite des enseignants), and the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Motion presented. Mr.

Caldwell: Just briefly, this bill amends The Teachers' Pensions Act in several ways, including clarification of periods of part- and full-time employment for purposes of pension eligibili ty, limiting the period during which a retired teacher under the age of 65 can teach while receiving a pension, adding a provision to allow a teacher or a former teacher to purchase at full actuarial costs the period of past service, providing for a one-time transfer from account A to the pension adjustment account, and gives the Teachers' Retirement Al lowance Fund board the authority to invest funds on behalf of the Government.

Thank you. Motion agreed to. * (13: 40) Bill 25-The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that leave be given to introduce Bill 25, The Health Services Insurance Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2121 l'a ssurance-maladie et modifica tions correla tives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Adminis trator, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Adminis trator's message. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Spea ker, this bill amends The Health Services Insurance Act with respect to surgical facili ties and makes changes to the law dealing with the Government's ability to recover the cost of insured services from neglig ent third parties. Motion agreed to.

Bill 30-The Securities Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr. Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 30, The Securities Amendment Act (Loi modi fiant Ia

Loi sur les valeurs mobilie res), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: The amendments of The Securities Act proposed in this bill fall into two broad categories. First are the amendments that will harmonize our securities legisla tion with that of other provinces, including changes and changing time requirements to file insider trading reports, increasing the notice period for takeover bids, adding the concept of reporting issuer and providing the Manitoba Securities Commission with authority to recognize self -regulatory organizations, ju st to name a few.

Other proposed amendments relate to the hearings and remedies and include providing the Manitoba Securities Commission with the ability to level financial administra tive penalties and costs after the hearing. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us from Darwin School, 19 Grade 3 students under the direction of Ms. Madeline Noyes. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Riel (Ms. Asper).

Also seated in the gallery we have, from Red River College, Intensive English Program , 13 English as a Second Language students under the direction of Ms. Kristina Gryz. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Wellin gton (Mr. Santos). Also in the gallery we have from Rock Lake School 17 Grades 4 to 8 students under the direction of Mr. Charles Friesen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed).

On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you here today. * (13:45) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Regional Health Author ities Budgets Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier has stated on many occasions in this House that the regional health authorities, including the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, must live within their budgets. Those are the budgets that were alloca ted to them by his Government and that this year's Budget is sufficient to provide health services to all Manitobans.

Now that the RHAs have had a chance to exam ine their budgets for this year, they are finding that they do not even have the money to provide the current level of ser vices. They are indicating that to live within the Premier's Budget they are going to have to close facilities, lay off staff and rotation of services. Which cuts in services will the Premier allow the RHAs to make in order to live within his Budget?

2122 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 2001 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The allocations in the Budget have been fully outlined by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak). The member opposite should know that I believe three or four of the health authorities last year did stay within their budgets. Some of them did not. The member opposite should also know that this year's funding provided for basic health services, patient services in the regional health authorities. It provided for, I believe, an 8% increase in the personal care homes which had been underfunded for I 0 years.

In Winnipeg, for example, the community based health clinics, which we hope will provide more and more preventative health care and wellness attention as well as other needed medical services, received a substantial increase. We are trying to see a shift, we are trying over time to not only increase the number of trained staff we have but to see a bit of a shift from the higher-cost acute care programs to some of the more cost-effective community-based programs in the province. Mr. Murray: Mr. Spea ker, we have already heard from South Eastman that they may have to close a hospital to meet the Premier's Budget.

We have also heard from Marquette that they also may have to close a hospital. Which other hospitals are the RHAs telling the Premier they will have to close in order to meet the Premier's bottom line? Mr. Doer: Mr. Sp eaker, the members opposite fired a thousand nurses and still had- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order. Beauschene's clearly shows us that we should not mis lead the people of Manitoba. This Premier continues to mislead, like his Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak), because there were no thousand nurses fired. There was a reorganization within the health care system in Manitoba. All those nurses were rehired except for 33, Mr. Speaker, not like these members who fired 500 nurses. Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Mini ster, on the same point of order. Mr. Doer: On the same point of order, the documentation prepared by nurses not by pol itical parties was tabled in the Legisl ature. They may try to run from the record, Mr. Sp eaker, but they cannot hide from it, and that is part of the reality when dealing with the members opposite. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, they were reducing the size of the medical school in the early '90s, which has resulted in a shortage of doctors, reducing the salaries and equipment for diagnostic testing and at the same time- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

At the same time that all these medical conditions and conditions for patient care were in the environ ment that we inherited, we also inherited the highest per capita spending of any province in Canada on health care services. Surely to goodness, if members want to suggest that the status quo is the way we should drift along, this is not a party that drifts along. This is a party and a Government that innovates and makes changes for the long-term sustainability for health care. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (13 :50) Mr. Speaker: Order. I would at this time ask the co-operation of all honourable members.

In order for me to rule on breach of a rule or unparliamentary langua ge, I have to be able to hear. It is very difficult to hear the questions and the answers. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Murray: Mr. Sp eaker, the Premier talks about innovation. Well, if their idea of

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 3 innovation is to close two hospitals and fire 600 nurses in the last two months, that is innovation that this province does not need. Mr. Spea ker, it is imp ortant that the public be involved in decisions. Communities have a right to know that their RHAs are looking at the clos ure of hospitals and cuts in services to patients.

Sin ce the Premier has already said in this Chamber many times, he has already said that the financial decisions of his Government rest on his desk, can he tell Manitobans what cuts will be allowed so that they will meet the Premier's Budget? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the former government established the regional health authority system, and they are dealing with the financial resources that are well above inflation for purposes of health care del ivery. They are dealing with their budgets.

It is impor tant, we believe, to applaud those regional health authorities that stayed within their budget in the last fiscal year. Mr. Speaker, there were at least four health authorities that were able to achieve that, and we think that is positive. You cannot have, over the long run, balanced budget legislation and have no requirement of staying within budgets in the regional health authorities. Having said that, financial resources have to be balanced against patient care, and we have shown to date that there have been no hospitals closed.

The argument about nurses, I think, is so silly it is not even worthy of paying it any attention. Health Care Facilities Closures Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Sp eaker, the Premier has quickly forgotten that he promised Manitobans in the election to fix all of the health care problems for a measly $15 milli on, and now the complexity and the realities are coming home to him.

I want to ask the First Minister: Given that he has expected regional health authorities to live within their budgets and given that regional health authorities are now telling him that to do that they will have to close hospitals, can the Premier now provide a lis t to Manitobans of the hospitals that are under consideration for clos ure? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, if the member wants to reference particular underutil ized hospitals, he ought to reference the report that was commissio ned by his government in 19 95 and the report that was commissioned by his government in 19 99 that outlined underutil ized hospitals. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Sp eaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health again: Given that we are not talking about utiliz ation but lack of funding from his department, will he come clean today and provide the list of hospitals that regional health authorities are saying they will have to close to meet this Premier's (Mr. Doer) Budget targets? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Spea ker, at the press conference that was held by the CEO and the chairperson for the South Eastman region recently when they were temporari ly recon figuring the region, they indicated that the reason they were in difficulty was because of constant government underfun ding during the 19 90s. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Spea ker, given that this minis ter and this Government have now been in power for two budgets and promised to solve all problems for $15 mill ion, I want to ask this Minister of Health and this Premier (Mr.

Doer) if they will come clean and tell Manitobans today the list of hospitals that are under con-sideration for clo sure on his watch as Mini ster of Health, because he has not provided adequate funding to them. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Spea ker, during the 19 90s, the former government closed 1400 acute care beds. It is this Government's policy not to close hospitals. * (1 3:55) Pan Am Clinic Purcha se-Property Taxes Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in Estima tes, the Minister of Health confirmed that Manitoba taxpayers are going to be paying the annual property taxes and huge annual repair costs on the Pan Am Clinic. Why did the Minister of Health hide this fact from Manitoba taxpayers, that they are going to be paying anywhere from $53,0 00 to $60,000 in

212 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 annual property taxes, when he made his announcement that when he bought the Pan Am Clinic all he was buying was the building and equipment? He never came clean on the fact that Manitobans are now paying huge property taxes on an annual basis. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure we all want to hear the answer. Ron. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Spea ker, the member referenced that in Estima tes yesterday, and as I explained to the member in Estima tes yesterday, she obtained the information from the report on due dil igence that we provided publicly that indicated there are operating expenses in any capital project. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chomiak: I will complete my answer in the second time. Mrs. Driedger: He was squirming yesterday, and he is squirming again. Purchase-Building Repairs Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Why did this Mini ster of Health hide the fact that by buying the Pan Am Clinic, Manitoba taxpayers are now also on the hook for anywhere between $66,000 and $74,000 every year for the next five years to pay for the repairs on this old building? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members that there is a viewing public, there are child ren in the gallery and I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Ron. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, it is hardly hiding when we provided the informa tion to the member opposite in a report that was made public, firstly. Secondly, the absurdity of what the member is saying can be related to the fact that when we opened Boundary Trails hospital several weeks ago, something I guess members opposite were opposed to too, we did not indicate what the operating costs were. If members did not know there is an operating cost associated with the capital project, then they have serious problems. Purchase-Additional Expenses Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Spea ker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health what other hidden costs there are for Manitoba taxpayers. We are talking here about a purchase of a clinic and nationalizing the clinic, not building a hospital. How much is NDP ideology going to cost Manitoba taxpayers? Ron. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Spea ker, as the Pricewaterhouse report, which was an independent third-party review of the particula r purchase agreement, had indicated, we would realize a net profit of $1. 2 million or $1. 5 million over a five-year period, returning money from the clinic to be reinvested in the clinic to do more surgeries, offer more services and keep more doctors here in Manitoba. East St. Paul High Voltage Hydro Lines Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Sp eaker, throughout their discussions with the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, the residents of East St.

Paul were never inf ormed that there is not one but two 230kV lines running through their community on top of another 500kV line. Can the Minister of Hydro confirm that the actual amount of power surging through East St. Paul is actual ly 960kV, rather than 730kV he has consistently told the residents? Ron. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm that, when the research was done on the impa ct of these hydro lines, the actual level of EMF that the residents would be experiencing would be less than many of the power lines that the Opposition installed in other communities during their term in office. * (14 :00) Mr. Schuler: I would ask the minis ter: Given that he plans to add an additional 960kV of power through East St. Paul, bringing the total to

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 5 19 20kV, can the minis ter provide this House with an urban example in North America which has 19 20kV surging just metres from people's backyards? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the critical variable installa tion of hydro lines is the distance from the residences, and in this case, the level of EMF that the residents wiii experience here is far less than lines that were installed by the previous government. Mr.

Schuler: Wiii the minis ter live up to his party's commitment from when they were in opposition to provide intervener funding for the residents of East St. Paul so they can provide a professional and well-r esearched perspective at the upcoming Clean Environment Commission meeting? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, this project, which was initiated by the former government, went through an entire environmen tal im pact study, initiated and carried out by the Department of Conservation. They also had a full opportunity for appeal which was conducted by the Department of Conservation.

In addition to that, unlike any other Hydro project in Manitoba, I asked the Cl ean Environ ment Commission to review the lit erature on EMF to see if there were any current risks to anybody in Manitoba from hydro lines. They concluded, using public health officials and CancerCare of ficials here in Manitoba, that there was no risk from EMF with hydro lines installed throughout Manitoba, and that has been a higher level of due dil igence provided by any other government.

In addition, the Clean Environment Commission is now prepared to meet with these residents and explain their findings and answer any remaining questions they may have. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield, on a new question. East St. Paul Cancer Rates Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): On a new question. The Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro has continually stated in this House that there are no health risks associated with living next to power lines. Is the minis ter aware that there is a Manitoba report that states East St. Paul has the hig hest cancer rates in the Winnipeg area? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Spea ker, I have indicated in this House the research that was determined by public health officials and CancerCare officials with respect to EMF. If there is any additional evidence that the member wishes to present or the community wishes to present to the Department of Conservation so that they can review the environmen tal impa cts, they have the full right to provide that inform ation. They have had an appeal. They have had an environmental impact study.

If they have additional infor mation, they can present it to the Department of Conservation and ask for that additional infor mation to be considered in the environmental impact review. Mr. Schuler: Given obvious concerns of cancer rates in East St. Paul, it is my responsibili ty as their MLA to ask: Will the Minis ter of Hydro place a moratorium on further Hydro expansion in East St. Paul and provide intervener funding to the residents? Mr. Selinger: If the member has additional information that the Department of Conservation should consider, I would encourage him to provide it at the earliest possible date.

This environmental impa ct study was initiated by the former government. The appeals have been heard by the Department of Conservation. If there is any additional information that would in any way suggest that there is an additional health risk in this community that makes it extra ordinary compa red to any other community, I would encourage this member to table this informat ion forthwith with the Department of Conservation, have the public health officials review it, and we will go forward from there. Mr. Schuler: Mr.

Spea ker, I would like to table from the report that was presented in May, which actually comes from the Mini ster of Health's (Mr. Chomiak) department. The Minister of Health should know it, but I will table it in either case. I would ask the Minister of Hydro, with the highest concentration of power

212 6 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 lines in a residential community and the highest cancer rates in the city of Winnipeg, will the minis ter pla ce a moratorium on Hydro expansion in East St. Paul and provide the residents with intervener funding? Mr. Selinger: Once again, Mr. Speaker, the process for handling an environmental impa ct review and the appeals are entirely handled by the Department of Conservation.

If there is any information that should be considered with respect to this matter, I encourage him to table it immedia tely with the Departm ent of Conser vation, have that department review it and if this information is considered to be salient and rele vant to this issue, I am certain that the Depart ment of Conservation will take it under consideration. Point of Order Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): On a point of order, Mr. Sp eaker, clearly the informa tion that was just tabled by the member from Springfield was information that was pro vided to the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) in this Government. Mr. Speaker, if one coll eague does not talk to another, that is their problem on that side of the House. The inform ation is there, and it is incumbent upon the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) and the Minis ter of Health to talk to each other and share informa tion. Mr. Selinger: The information that is provided here on cancer incidence rates was compiled between the years 19 93 and 19 95. I am surprised the members opposite when they were in government did not consider this information, and if they did not, they have made a huge mi stake. Mr.

Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Charleswood, on the same point of order. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On the same point of order, Mr. Sp eaker, the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation just tabled that report within the last few weeks. They were looking at past data, but the report was compiled, the statistics were just compiled, and the Minister of Health's office would have received the report at the same time I did. If he had studied the report as well as I did, Mr. Speaker, he would know that this infor mation should be dealt with by his Government. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Prior to recognizing the Mini ster of Health on the same point of order, may I remind all honourable members that a point of order should be a breach of the rules or unparl iamentary langua ge. I do not want it to tum into a debate. Mr. Chomiak: The report in question I believe was commissioned by members opposite. They had access to this informa tion. They had access to information to provide to the hearing and they did not. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. East St. Paul Cancer Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Spea ker, my question to the Minister of Health. In the report in dispute, which was released May 4 from the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, there is quite clearly the highest incidence of cancer in what is called River East North, East St. Paul, of any neighbourhood in Winnipeg, incidence of 7.8 compared to the rest of Winnipeg which is about 5.3. That increase is statistically significant. That means it is unlikely to have occurred by chance.

It is clea r, given the fact that the other health indicators for this neighbourhood suggest an above-average health index, that this cancer rate stands out as an anomaly. I would ask the Minister of Health to ask for a research investigation, a scientific investi gation as quickly as possible to sort out the reason for the high incidence of cancer. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, the member makes a valid suggestion. The data was provided by Cancer Treatment Research Foundation in 19 96. I think that it is fair, it is worth while to examine all of these

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 212 7 issues and all of the incidence and all of the factors as the member knows, that go into the determination of the risk factors regarding this particular type of incidence or this particular type of illness. * (14:10 ) Mr. Gerrard: My supplemen tary to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Given the acute public concern over the high voltage power lines and some studies which suggest that there could be links to cancer, it would seem to me advisable for the minis ter to not proceed with this until we have the scientific investigation for the high cancer incidence. I would ask Minister responsible for Hydro if he will hold of f until we have the results of the scientific investigation. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): We will take the question by the member opposite under advisement.

We will investigate this data which was relea sed by the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation in 19 96, see if it has been reviewed during the environmen tal im pact study review and get back to the member on whether or not it has been considered. Mr. Gerrard: My supplem entary to the min ister. Given that the report in fact explains that sometimes it takes a while to analyze data, I suspect this is the first analysis of those data in this sort of fashion.

So I would ask the minis ter: Given the precautionary principle that is involved in an environmental and health assessment, would he not commit to holding off on any new power line construction in that area until these data are thoroughly investigated? Mr. Selinger: I think the data deserves careful consideration which is why we originally asked people that are experts in cancer care and public health to review the information on EMF, and included with that was Dr. Harry Johnson from CancerCare Manitoba, and he has given his opinion on the safety of EMF.

This information I will take under considera tion, and I will ask it to be carefully reviewed. Mr. Spea ker, I can assure the member opposite that we will not make any precipitous decisions until we have a better understanding of what the impl ications of this data are for any neighbour hood in Manitoba. Health Care System Emergency Services-Rural Manitoba Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Sp eaker, to the Minister of Health.

I recognize that one of the constant challenges of this Government, any government, is to bring about a degree of equity and parity in the provision of public service, in this case, the services of an em ergency medical service system. We had some of their members picketing the building here this morning. I am advised that the system is near colla pse in rural Manitoba. What is this mm 1ster doing to ensure sufficient personnel, sufficient numbers of EMS personnel so that that in fact does not happen? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Spea ker, the member might be aware that his government commissio ned a study of EMS in Manitoba, that when we assumed office arrived on our desk, that showed funding for EMS in Manitoba at the time we assumed office was the lowest in the country. Last Budget, we doubled the funding to rural EMS, the biggest increase in the history of EMS to the province of Manitoba. This year, we announced a replenishment of 80 new ambulances across the province.

I have explained this on many occasions to members opposite during the Estima tes experi ence and during some of the other processes, that we have started from very far behind in terms of EMS in Manitoba, and it is going to take us awhile to build up from the leg acy of what happened over the past decade. Mr. Enns: Mr. Spea ker, the rules prevent me from entering into a debate about it. There is a changing system out there, of course.

EMS was largely del ivered through volu nteer services prior to the visionary and innovative measures the previous government introduced, which this minis ter is not changing, the putting together of the regional health districts. My question is I am asking the minis ter to answer, if not for me then for the rural residents who depend on this kind of service: Will he

21 28 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 ensure that they are adequately staffed at Emer gency Measures, the EMS people will be there to serve the rural people when called upon? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, we recognized and we realized that EMS had been underresourced for over a decade, and everyone will admit it. Even when the EMS officials met with the Leader of the Opposition, they indicated that the problems occurred over the past decade. We recognized that, but we cannot in one or two years undo what happened over the past decade.

I can tell you that last year's Budget doubled the amount of resources to rural Manitoba, and we have increased it again this year, and we recognize that sufficient EMS purposes is central and necessary to rural Manitoba. It is far more necessary now than it was 20 years ago or 25 years ago, and there is no doubt that we have to enhance the resources to rural Manitoba in order to provide them ade-quate services. We are doing everything we can within our resources to do that. Education Facilities Nursing Staff Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): During the 1999 election campaign, the current Premier (Mr.

Doer) promised Manitobans that a Doer government would hire nurses to work in schools. He promised that schools would be, and I quote, a prim ary site for community-based child health program s. He told Manitobans that this would cost $500,000. Can the Minister of Health explain why the Doer government has, once again, broken their prom ises to Manitobans by failing to hire nurses to work in schools? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as we indicated on many occasions, the numbers of nurses graduating, in fact, in 1999 and 2000 were the lowest in the history of Manitoba in the past 20 years in terms of nurses. It has been very difficult to find and maintain adequate nurses as a result of the cutbacks that occurred during the 19 90s and the elim ination of the nursing program s. We are on track for nursing programs in the schools. Healthy Child Manitoba Nurses and Schools Initiative Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Spea ker, can the minis ter explain why, following this year's budgets, the nurses in school initi atives is no longer outlined as a core com mit ment of Healthy Child Manitoba in the Doer government's press releases? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): As the chairma n of the Healthy Child Comm ittee of Cabinet, I can assure the member that nurses in schools are a core comm itment of Healthy Child Manitoba and that work to implement that promise during the election is well underway at the present time. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Spea ker, will the minis ter just come clean and admit that the Doer govern ment has once again broken yet another election promise? Mr. Sale: No. Health Care System MRI Waiting Lists Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Spea ker, on May 14 the Minister of Health would have received a letter from a father in Winnipeg about his son Steven [phonetic]. I will not use the fam ily's name here in the House, but I am certainly prepared to discuss this with the minis ter. This father was concerned about his son having a fall in 19 97 and having severe back pain right now, but he cannot get any treatment in Manitoba.

He has been waiting very long for tests. He had to wait 13 weeks for an MRI test here, and he went to the United States to get the MRI in two days. Could the minis ter indicate why the tests for an MRI in the United States would only take two days, but in Manitoba it is taking 13 weeks for somebody in severe back pain? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Spea ker, as is always the occasion in this House, I would appreciate if the member would forward the specifics, and I will check it in my office with respect to the specifics of that case.

As it relates to the MRis, if the members scrutinized some of our capital pla ns this year

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 212 9 they would note that there will be the installing of a new MRI. We will have more MRis in Manitoba I think than at any other time in our history, and we will work towards a reduction that Manitobans deserve. We are going to try to do our best. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, then, if he is talking about having more MRis, if indeed he will commit to spending the $1 8.6 million he is sitting on that the federal government gave him for this year for medical diagnostic equipm ent instead of sitting on it for next year's Budget?

Will he commit now to spending it so we do not have these long, long waiting lis ts in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Spea ker, I am glad the member ref erenced the program that Manitoba worked very hard to get the federal government to introduce. We are very pleased that Manitoba was one of the lea ders in persuading the federal government to put in place an equipment program . Mr. Speaker, we amassed $22 million in equipm ent, which is far superior to anything that has happened in the last decade. We will continue. There are new CAT scans coming on. There are new MRis.

Unfortunately, we are paying the legacy of a neglect and a deterioration of this system that occurred over the past decade. It will take us some time, but we are continuing to improve the situation by new capital equipmen t, and we will continue to do that at a pace that has not happened in this province before. * (14:2 0) Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Sp eaker, I would like to ask the mi nister when he is going to make a commitment of funding for that $1 8.6 million which was given to this Government by the federal government to be spent specifically on diagnostic equipment.

Instead of having a young boy like this sitting in severe pain because he cannot get tests in Manitoba, when will this minis ter commit to spending that money, or is he going to save it for the next election and that becomes a slush fund? Mr. Chomiak: When the member refers to slush fund, she is well experienced from the last government's dealing with money, well experi enced with that. That is not the policy that this Government adopts. Yesterday, they were accusing us of spending too much money. Today, they say we are not spending enough money. They have to get off the fence, Mr. Speaker.

Now we understand why health care was so badly managed in the 19 90s. They did not know what they were doing. They could not make up their mind. One day it is spend. One day it is not spend. We have put in place more program s to train more nurses, to train more doctors, to train other health care professionals. We have expanded initiatives in the community, Mr. Sp eaker, like the eating disorders, like the PACT program in the com munity that provides men tal health services, like the prima ry care initiatives, first time in this province, and there is more to come in the next few months.

Health Care System Hallway Medicine Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Spea ker, a constituent of mine recently wrote to me about his deep concern with the present state of health care in Manitoba. He noted that his wife has been in the emergency rooms at two Winnipeg hospitals and was in hallway No. 3 once and in hallway No. 9 on her other visit. My constituent has no complaint with the health care pro fessional with whom he and his wife were in contact. He does have a complaint about the way the health care system is being managed.

Why, if the minis ter kept his promise to end hallway medicine, was my constituent's wife in hospital hallways on two occasions this spring? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I happened to check the statistics for hallways today. On today's date two years ago, when members opposite were in power, there were 18 people in the hallways. Last year, after we put in place our hallway initiatives, there were 9 in the hallways. Today there are 2 in the hallways.

While we have not been perfect, CIHI, a national report, said we had reduced it by 80 percent and we had done better in Manitoba than any other province, and we are continuing to do that.

213 0 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 Mr. Speaker, we are continuing to put in place initiatives because we realize it is not perfect. We realize there are still some problems, but we are not dealing with the 25, 30 and 40 in the hallwa ys day after day, week after week, month after month that occurred when members opposite were in power. Mr. Pitura : Mr. Speaker, why, when the Health budget was increased by 22 percent since the 19 99 budget, are Manitoba patients still being treated in hospital hallways? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of reasons.

First off, CIHI indicated we have reduced the numbers by 80 percent, which is the best in Canada. Secondly, the closing of 1400 beds by members opposite in the '90s contri buted to that. Thirdly, the firing of 10 00 nurses by members opposite contributed to a nursing shortage. Fourth, the reduction of physicia ns in 19 92 to reduce the number of physicia ns in Manitoba contributed. When we came into of fice we announced on November 22, 19 99, a comprehensive hallway plan that has been copied by other jurisdictions, including Ontario that almost exclusively adopted our plan to deal with hallway medicine.

It is not perfect, Mr. Sp eaker. We are continuing to work at it and we will continue to work at it to improve the situation. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Carol Spain Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate a talented and innovative woman by the name of Carol Spain, who resides in the Fort Garry constituency. Carol Spain was recently recognized by the Women's Business Owners of Manitoba for her outstanding entrepreneurship in starting her business, The Itty Bitty Baby Clothing Company.

The formation and development of small business is essential to maintaining a sound provincial economy. Innovations such as Ms. Spain's new clothing store diversify our econo my and create new job opportunities for hardworking Manitobans. Mr. Sp eaker, the entrepreneurs who take on these new endeav ours deserve to be recognized as individuals who are truly making a difference in our communities and in our province. Events such as the recent gala put on by the Women's Business Owners of Manitoba are welcome events which help to highl ight the impor tant achieveme nts of women in this province.

As Eddie Calis ta-Tavares, president of the WBOM stated, we are cele brating their courage, their passion, their vision and determination to create, sometimes from nothing, and to make their dreams a reality. Also recognized by the WBOM were Roslyn Nugent of Bayridge Lumber and Forest Products who received the award for overall excellence and the innovator award, Janice Regehr, Louise Grouette Stockw ell, Marlene Fast and Donna Lagopoulos. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is with great respect and admir ation that I recognize the wonderful ac compli shments of these women and to con gratulate them on making their business dreams a reality in Manitoba. Hyacinth Colomb Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I want to take this opportunity to recognize an exempla ry citizen, Mr. Hyacinth Colomb of Mathias Colomb Cree Nation at Pukatawagan who will be receiving the Order of Manitoba for his dedication and comm itment to the local com munity. A former chief of the community, Mr. Colomb has also served as a band councillor, ambulance driver and fire chief for the com munity.

He has undertaken various projects such as a wild rice operation. In fact, Mr. Colomb has explained to me clearly on several occasions how the fluctuating water levels on the river impa ct on wild rice growing in the region. Mr. Colomb was Manitoba's first trapline officer and a community representative for the Natural Resources Department. As a result of his success, that program was expanded to other communities and remains a very imp ortant aspect of Department of Conservation program s in the North to this day. At over 80 years of age Mr.

Colomb still traps his own fur and continues to work tirelessly with the youth of his

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2131 community to interest them in trapping and land based lif estyles. The Order of Manitoba, the province's highest honour, was establ ished to recognize individuals who have demonstrated excellence and achievement in any field and who have contributed to the social, cultural or economic well-being of Manitoba and its residents. Mr. Hyacinth Colomb richly deserves this honour. From all members of this Legisla ture would like to congratulate Hyacinth Colomb. We applaud his comm itment to helping people.

We applaud him for being an outstanding role model for his community, for his positive influence on northern Manitoba, and for his contributions to all of Manitoba. Hy, we are proud of you; we thank you. MARN Awards Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On Wednesday, May 16 , the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray) and I had the plea sure of attending this year's Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses professional achievement awards dinner in Brandon. Each year a number of awards are distributed in recognition of outstanding dedication and contribution to the nursing profession.

The reward recipients have demons trated their comm itment to improving health care for Manitobans and have truly enhanced the well-being of their patients, their colle agues and their communities. I would like to take a moment to congratulate the following award winners. Susa n Goodmanson and Vivien Painter both received awards for Excellence in Professional Nursing Adminis tration. Caroline Lysack and Nora Schwetz received awards for Excellence in Professional Nursing Direct Care. Dr. Jo-Ann Sawa tzky and Susan Stanton received awards for Excellence in Prof essional Nursing Education.

Martin Gosselin, Mary-Alice Grassick and Alice Mancheese received the Community Caring Awards. Joann MacMorran received the Pro fessional Lif etime Achievement Award and Diane Phippen was given the award for Out standing Achievement. Once again I would like to express my most sincere congratulations to all of the MARN professional achievement award winners. Their numerous efforts and contributions have not gone unnoticed and their continued excellence serves as a great examp le to others and for others in the nursing profession.

On behalf of all Manitobans, I thank them and I congratulate them on a job very well done. Thank you. French Language Nursing Diploma Program Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Monsieur le president, j'ai eu le plaisir d'assister hier a l'annonce par Ia minis tre de l'Enseig nement postsecondaire (Mme McGifford) de l'octroi de 619 000 $ a un programme en soins infirmiers offert en fran�ais au College universitaire de Saint-Bonif ace. La mini stre a annonce a CUSB que ce programme sera finance dans le cadre de l'I nitiative d'expansion des colleges comm unautaires. M.

David Dandeneau, responsable du prelevement des fonds au College, a accueilli Ia min istre. Le docteur Paul Ruest, recteur, a souligne }'im portance de ce programme dans les collectivites francophones de notre province et le veritable besoin de personnel infirmier francophone dans les etabli sseme nts publiques bil ingues de soins de sante de Ia province. En cooperation avec I'Universite d'Ottawa, le programme menant a un diplome en soins infirmiers sera of fert par l' Ecole technique et professionnelle du CUSB . La formation durera 24 mois et sera echelonnee sur trois annees scolaires.

Le CUSB prevoit l' inscription de 25 eleves par an. C'est grace surtout aux efforts de Raymonde Gagne, directrice des nouveaux program mes au Col lege, que cette initiative sera en place pour septembre 2001. Nous felicitons le personnel du Col lege pour leur travail d'impla ntation du programme en soins infirmiers. Merci, M. le president. Translation Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of being present yesterday fo r the announcement by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms.

McG iff ord) of the $619,000 in fu nding fo r a French language nursing diploma program that will be off ered at College universitaire de Saint-Boniface. The minister announced at CUSB that this program will be fu nded through the College Expansion Initiative.

213 2 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 Mr. David Dandeneau, who is responsible fo r fu ndraising activities at the College, welcomed the minister. Dr. Paul Ruest, the rector, empha sized the importance of this program in the Francophone communities of our province and the real need fo r French-speaking nursing sta ff in the bilingual public health institutions of this province. In co-operation with the University of Ottawa, the nursing diploma program will be off ered by the Ecole technique et prof essionnelle of CUSB. Training will take 2 4 months and will be delivered over three academic years.

CUSB anticipates an enrolment of 25 students per year. It is thanks above all to the eff orts of Raymonde Gagne, the director of new programs at the College, that this initiative will be in place fo r September 200I. We congratulate the sta ff of CUSB.fo r their work in establishing the nursing program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14: 30) East St. Paul-Cancer Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to put an additional perspective on the high incidence of cancer in River East North which was reported in the May 4 issue of a report brought forward by the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation which is entitled "I ndicators of Health Status and Health Service Use for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority." The incidence of cancer in what is referred to as River East North or East St. Paul was 7.8, which is considerably higher than the rate of 5.3, which is the average for all of Winnipeg.

This difference is statistically signifi cant, that is, that it is unlikely to have occurred by chance and the probabil ity of it occurring by chance is less than one in twenty. When one compares the incidence of cancer to the other disorders which were looked at and the lif e span of people in River East North, it is quite cl ear that in general the people in River East North are among the healthiest in Winnipeg, that is, that they have amon g the lowest premature mortality rate, they have among the lowest incidence of hypertension and of diabetes.

The women in fact have the longest lif e expectancy of any in the city of Winnipeg, and people in this area have low incidence of hip replacement. Given this picture of a very healthy population, it is exceptionally striking that there should be a high incidence of cancer. It is clearly an anomaly. It could yet have occurred by chance or be an artifact.

There are some logical investigations that could be done quite quickly to look at a window la rger than that of '93 to '95, to look at what types of cancer are developing in this area, and whether these are typical of those found in association with power lines and what is the geographic distribution. It is impor tant that this be done. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Spea ker, it is the intention to deal with some bills initially, but first would you please canvass the House and determ ine if there is consent to vary the order of Estima tes by moving Education, Training and Youth ahead of Agriculture and Food in 255 for today only? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for consideration of Estima tes by moving the Departm ent of Edu cation, Training and Youth ahead of the Depart ment of Agricul ture and Food in Room 255 for today only. Is there unanimous consent? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Spea ker, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to waive Commi ttee of Supply sitting this Friday? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to waive the sitting of Committee of Supply for this Friday? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, before moving Supply then, would you please call second readings in the order they appear except for Biii 20, and then would you please call debate on second readings on Bills 8 and 13?

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 213 3 SECOND READINGS Bill No. 10-- The Safer Communi ties and Neighbourhoods and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett), that Bill 10 , The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods and Consequential Am endments Act (Loi visant a accroitre la securite des collectivites et des quartiers et modifi cations correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased today to introduce The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods and Consequential Ame ndments Act, which will replace The Community Protection Act introduced by the previous government and passed by the Legisla ture in June 19 99. While I supported the general thrust of The Community Protection Act, I did so with serious reservations about its ability to be ef fective, the haste with which it had been prepared, and the apparent lack of consultations preceding its development.

I urged the government of the day to amend the act so that it could achieve its stated purpose, that is, to relieve neighbourhoods from the adverse effect of drugs, prostitution and related activities, booze cans and solvent abuse from particular prem ises. As Minister of Justice, I support and promote partnerships with the community to address the causes and effects of crime in our communities. However, a key requirement of any partnership is that the roles to be undertaken by each party must be realistic, Mr. Spea ker.

We cannot impose requirements or expectations which are unreal istic, which place the saf ety of the parties at risk and which cap the potential benefits of a new law by a citizen's fear of using it.

Upon taking of fice, I instructed departmen tal staff to conduct a comprehensive overhaul of The Community Protection Act to remove the burden pla ced on the public to conduct their own investigations, gather evidence and present it in court; to streamline the entire process; to remove the burden on the public for the cost of obtaining legal counsel; to pursue orders under the act; and increase the role of the Department of Justice in seeking court orders against owners of property where the effects of specific activities pose a threat to the safety and security of Manitobans.

The Safer Communities and Neighbour hoods and Consequential Am endments Act, which I introduce today, is grounded in a more realistic partnership, one which does not burden the public but protects it, which removes fear as an impediment to the use of the law and replaces it with protections which citizens should expect from their government, and a law which removes the costly burden to the public for which they should be entitled to enjoy the safety and security of their neighbourhoods.

The new bill is based on many consultations, notably including with the Winnipeg Police Service, including vice officers, members of the Street Gang Unit and the outlaw motorcycle unit, and community and foot-patrol officers. The RCMP as well, Mr. Spea ker, were con sulted, along with the Brandon Police Service, the Aboriginal Court Worker Program , Family Services and Housing, and Residential Tenancies Branch fire department officials, Manitoba Housing, New Lif e Ministries, the non-potable alcohol and substance abuse com mittee leadersh ip, and the Neighbourhoods Alive ! steering comm ittee.

Departmental staff also went into the community with police to view first-hand properties which were the site of the very problems this legis lation is designed to address. * (14: 40) This bill continues to focus on the disruption of neighbourhoods which results from certain improper uses of property. The bill continues to target the use and sale of inhala nts, prostitution and its related activities, the sale of controlled substances and breaches of The Liquor Control Act.

Where there is reasonable inference that the property is being used on a habitual basis for a specified use and the activities are adversely affecting the neighbourhood, this bill will pro vide a remedy to the community.

21 34 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 While the target uses remain the same under this bill, the process has been significantly stream lined to provide for faster access to orders, and legal proceedings have been simplif ied. Proceedings will now be commenced in the Court of Queen's Bench rather than in Provincial Court. In addition, the Department of Justice will now have prima ry responsibil ity for investigating compla ints and obtaining orders. The bill requires that any person who wishes to seek relief must first file a compla int with the director of Public Saf ety.

This new procedure provides a greater management tool for the entire process. Moreover, this procedure addresses concerns raised regarding The Community Protection Act by law enforcement officials about the impact upon undercover operations if appli cations were made to court directly by the public. By requiring compla ints to be made first to the director, it is intended that accidental interference with undercover operations can be prevented. Once the complaint is filed, the director is then empowered to commence an investigation.

The Director of Public Sa fety will have a range of options for dealing with com plaints, includ ing the ability to send warning letters to property owners and to engage in dispute resolution measures designed to resolve a dispute before court proceedings are invoked. Following an investigation, the director will have the option of proceeding with a notice of applica tion directly to the Court of Queen's Bench.

Upon dem onstrating that the property is being habitually used for one or more of the targeted uses and that these activities were adversely affecting the neighbourhood, the court may grant an order against the owner. The bill vests a significant amount of discretion in the judge to fashion the appropriate remedy. Specifically the court may require the property to be vacated, close the property for up to 90 days, or make any other order which the court may feel is appropriate to remedy the problem.

However, all commu nity safety orders will have specific expiry dates and provisions prohibiting all persons from causing or contributing to the targeted activities. The identity of the compl ainant will remain confidential throughout the process where the director proceeds with an applica tion to court. This process provides a protection for a compl ainant who is intimida ted perhaps by persons engaged in the improper use of a neighbouring property. However, should the director decide not to proceed with an appli cation to court, the director is required to advise the complai nant in writing.

The compl ainant will then have two months to proceed on his or her own with an applica tion to court. Only in those circumstances where the complai nant intends to proceed on his or her own will the identity of the compl ainant be known to the property owner. While the community safety order remains in ef fect, motions can be brought for further closure orders where the activities have not ceased. The bill als o creates new protections for occupants of the property who may have had no direct role in the activities which gave rise to the applica tion.

Such occupants may apply to the court for a right to reoccupy the property where the court has ordered the property closed or vacated. In addition the director is empowered to provide assistance to occupants in locating alternate accommoda tions. In closing, Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba want their neighbourhoods and communities to be safe and peaceful places to live. They want to be able to protect their neighbourhoods and communities from disrup tive activities. They want to be able to address the conditions which they see in their own communities and neighbourhoods which favour the development of crime.

They want to be able to make them more peaceful and safer. This bill provides Manitobans with tools to achieve these goals and provides assistance to them in the use of those tools. This bill, Mr. Spea ker, empowers Manitobans to protect their neighbourhoods and communities, to protect them from activities incidental to certain uses of property which disturb their lives and the peace and safety of their neighbourhoods and com munities. This bill provides a stronger, more effective legisla tive tool to help communities.

It is a bill which when proclaimed will augment other initiatives of this Governm ent to increase the

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 5 safety and security of Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Spea ker, I would move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bi11 21-The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Smi th), that Bill 21, The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act (Loi sur le Conseil ethnoculturel manitobain de consultation et de revendication), be now read a second time and be referred to a commit tee of this House. Motion presented. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, there are not many times, I do not believe, in the lif e of a legisla tor where you can get up and actually make a big difference in peoples lives and also fulfil a personal dream, if you will. Mr.

Spea ker, I think it was May 8, 19 93, I was the of ficial Opposition critic for multicul tural ism, and I was given the oppor tunity to speak unlimitedly. I believe I spoke for over eight hours on several occasions on the demise, the bill that was going to, in effect, cause the demise of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker. in the Chair At that time, I do not know if I said it publicly in this House, but I certainly said it publicly to members of my caucus and my party, that it was a goal of mine to come back into government and have an NDP government reinstate a council that would provide advice and advocacy to the government of the day. In 19 95, Mr. Deputy Spea ker, in the election campaign, it was a commitment of our party that we would do that very thing.

In 19 99, again, it was a comm itment of our party that when we formed government we would bring back a council that would provide advice and advocacy on ethnocultural issues to the Government of Manitoba. It is with an enormous amount of pride, both personal and on behalf of our party, our caucus, and our Government, that I am here today to speak to the bill that imple ments the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council. It is a big act in its name. It is a very short act, actually, but I think it will have large impli cations for the Government and for the ethno cultural community in Manitoba.

We are following today in a line that goes back in Manitoba for 31 years. In 19 70, the then-Premier of the Province of Manitoba who had been premier for less than a year, the Honourable Edward Schreyer, put in place something called a mosaic congress in 19 70, which was made up of representatives from the multicul tural community in the province at the time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the recommendations of this mosaic congress was that there be an advisory commit tee establ ished on multic ultural issues to advise the government of the day. In 19 71, I believe it was, this council was put in place.

It acted very effectively for the government of the day from that time forward until 19 77. Then, in 19 77, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, something happened. The government of the day changed, and so did the im pact and the imp ortance of the multic ultural community, and the multicul tural fact in the province of Manitoba changed too. After 19 97, the advisory comm ittee on multicu ltural ism lapsed into inactivity. People's appointment dates came up, they expired, and they were not renewed.

So that, in effect, for the four years of the Sterling Lyon government there was no advice given to the government, no advocacy provided to the government on multi cultural issues. * (1 4:50) In 19 81, when the NDP came back into power, one of the first things that the

213 6 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 government of the day did, even though it was in the middle of a deep recession, something that had not happened for a number of years, the Howard Pawley government put into place in early 19 83, April 19 83, after a year of consultation, again, following in the Schreyer form of consul tation and then imp lementing recommendations out of consultation, the Mani toba Intercul tural Council was born in 19 83.

It provided virtually a decade of good advice, wonderful papers, lots of informa tion, and a forum for the multic ultural community to speak among themselves and to government about issues that im pacted on the multic ultural, ethno cultural community in the province of Manitoba. Again, in late 19 88 and early 19 89, when the government changed, the Manitoba Intercul tural Council started another withering away of its activities. By the time, I believe it was Bill 28 came in the spring of 19 93, the Manitoba Intercultural Council was a shell of its former self , as the Member for Springfield (Mr.

Schuler) would know, being a former chair of MIC. In 1993, the Minister of Culture and Heritage, the current Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), brought in the bill that in effect killed the Manitoba Intercultural Council. I do not want to go through the el ements that led to the demise of MIC or revisit much of that history because it is certainly in Hansard. In my speech in Hansard. it talks abut the wonderful work that MIC did in its tenure.

As I stated we made an election commit ment, not that we would return to the Manitoba Intercultural Council, because we recognize that things change, that what was appropriate and effective in 19 83 may not be the appropriate effective way to handle advice and advocacy from the ethnocultural community in 2001. We did com mit to a series of consultations to talk with the community, to find out what they wanted and to try and bring in a piece of legisl ation that would reflect what the community as a whole wanted. I believe with this legisla tion we have done that. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this Government is not afraid of advice. This Government looks for advice from all parts of the community. This Government, unlike the former government, is definitely not af raid of advocacy. The former government did not only destroy the Manitoba Intercultural Council but in the same area, that same time period, they cut the funding to the friendship centres, to all Indian and Metis friendship centres in the province of Manitoba. What was the reason given? Because they provided advocacy.

What a terrible, terrible thing for a community organization representing, in the case of the Indian and Metis friendship centres, one group of citizens in this province; and in the case of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, another group of citizens in this province. Historically, both groups, have been underrepresented, underappreciated, and in many cases, particularly with the Indian and Metis friendship centres in the Aboriginal community they represent, totally destroyed by some of the actions of provincial and federal governments.

These two groups should have advocacy as part of their ability to interact with government. They are the groups that need to have access to government, that need to have their views, their concerns, their problems addressed. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, only through advice and advocacy can you manage to have that effectively happen.

This Government, through the reinstatement of funding to Indian and Metis friendship centres and among many other actions on the part of the Government in the last two budgets and policy decisions that have been made and through the impa ct of Bill 21 that we are debating here today, will bring back the rights of all citizens in the province of Manitoba and recognize, as well, the responsibilit y that government has to all citizens in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker in the Chair So we, unlike the former government, are not afraid of various communities in our province. We want to lis ten to ideas.

We want to hear ideas that may be uncomf ortable for us to hear, but that is what government needs to do. Government needs to hear ideas that may not be comf ortable for them at that time, and they may not act on all of the advice. They may not respond totally to all of the advocacy that is going on, but it is our responsibil ity as government to make sure that we are open and that we hear from every portion of our society. Mr. Spea ker, we believe that the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council,

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 213 7 or MEAAC for short, will provide that advice and that advocacy role to the Governm ent that has been sorely lacking over more than a decade. We believe that the concept of multicu ltural ism, which is one of the basic foundations of Canada and Manitoba, is a critically impor tant concept to retain. As someone who grew up in the United States with the assimila tion and melting pot concept, I embrace and endorse whol eheartedly the idea, the concept, the principle and, I hope, the actions of multicul tural ism. Mr.

Sp eaker, it has helped strengthen and diversify our pro vince, our country, and it is an essential part of what makes us Canadians, what differentiates us from the rest of the North America n continent and more particularly from the United States of America. It is essential that we strengthen that, that we water that concept all the time. It is also impor tant to recognize that multiculturalism is not an easy concept. It is a difficult concept. It is difficult for people to recognize and accept it.

It is difficult for us, even if we are members of a theor etically multi cultural or ethnocultural group sometimes to acknowledge and respect the ideas and the cultures of other people. So it is even more critical, if we believe, as we on this side of the House do, and I am hoping that those on the Opposition believe as well, that Manitoba and Canada have been strengthened by the concept of multicul tural ism, No. 1, that it is critical to assist the difficult concept of multicu ltural ism to become part and parcel of the fabric of our society, then we need a council such as this that is being put together.

It is critical that we have, as government, as I said before, that we have what I call gadfl ies, that we lis ten to and have people who sit on our shoulder and say, no, no, we do not think you are doing it right. Have you thought about this? Do you recognize that the implica tions of what you are looking at doing will be for our com munities? Why have you not looked at this possibil ity or that possibil ity? A government is only as good as the advice that it lis tens to and takes, and we need a council such as MEAAC to provide us with that kind of advice and that kind of advocacy.

Advocacy is sl ightly different than advice, Mr. Speaker. Advice says: Have you thought about looking at it this way? Have you thought about looking at this problem from this point of view? Advocacy is a tougher, harder concept. Advocacy says: This is what you as a govern ment should do. This is what you should be doing, and this group will advocate on behalf of the ethnocultural communities to us as govern ment. * (15 :00) I am del ighted to be able to be the minis ter who is shepherding this piece of legi slation through.

I am hoping that it will be very quickly passed by the House, and then it will be unanimously passed by the House. I cannot imagine any reason why the Opposition would not support this piece of legislation. Mr. Spea ker, I cannot imagine, unless they look down the road some day and think at some point in time we might be back in government, the Opposition says, and we do not want a council that is going to provide us with advice or advocacy.

That could happen because that is what happened in 19 93 when the former govern ment, in effect, emascu lated and killed the Manitoba Intercult ural Council and thereby emascula ted and killed the organization that could provide advice and advocacy to the Government. We need to make sure that our laws, our policies and our society reflect the abil ity of individuals and communities to protect and cherish what makes them individuals and communities.

In many cases, what makes indi viduals and communities unique is their cult ure, is where they come from or their religious beli efs, their cult ural belief s, their ethnic pride. Those are the things that we must protect for individuals, and we must protect them for communities. We must, as legis lators who are in a domina nt position in this society, protect the rights of all individuals and all communities.

Through organizations such as MEAAC, we believe on this side of the House, and I hope all members will believe and support, the concept that an organization such as MEAAC, which will represent all geographical parts of the province, which will have gender representation, and I am sure will have representation from many of the ma jor ethnocultural groups in this province, which will be grassroots elected : 16 of

213 8 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 the 21 members of the council will be elected directly by the organizations that have been invited to send in nominations. Over 300 organi zations have been asked to send in nominations and then will be asked to select 16 of the 21 members of MEAAC. MEAAC members will meet with the minis ter on a regular basis, and reports of their activities, Mr. Spea ker, will be made available annual ly through the departmental annual report.

In closing, I am very pleased and honoured to be able to not only honour a personal commitment of mine but a commit ment of our Government, a commit ment that goes back in the NDP government in Manitoba from the Schreyer years through the Pawley years and now through the Prem ier Doer years. It is a great honour for me to be the representative to bring this piece of legis lation forward to reflect on 30 years of our comm itment to the concepts of multic ultural ism, advice and advocacy. I ask for all members' support in the House for this impor tant piece of legisla tion. Thank you. Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether it was an hour, but whatever time it was, it was such utter nonsense, hogwash, patronizing, that I as a member of an ethnic community feel deeply insulted. I, as a result of the passage of this bill, can now speak to my government. I have not been able up to now. The Member for Well ington (Mr. Santos) has a smile on his face in anticipation, because if this bill passes he will, according to the min ister, be able to speak to the Government. I have to go and tell my good friends, the Icela nders up in Gimli, that they have not been able to speak to the Government before.

They have not been able to interact with the Government before. But now, with the passage of this bilL this patronizing act, this compassion that the current Minister for Multicu ltural ism has, why they may even be able to carry on with their Icela ndic Festival once more, or my good friends up in Dauphin, the Ukrainian community. What utter nonsense. In passing, I know of her Ameri can roots.

I am not going to suggest that everything in America is great, but if we want to hold up as an example of what strength ens a country, you know, the tragedy in Canada is and with Canadians is we spend so much of our time contempla ting our navel on ju st who we are. What are we? What do we stand for? We go through every decade with 25 percent of our nation wanting to separate and holding formal referendums on it. We have a whole western part of the country alie nated from the current government with one member of Parliament representing us in the state of power. What great contribution.

In fact, there are grounds, Mr. Spea ker, there is a compelling argument to be made that this kind of legis lated nonsense that we are talking about here has contributed to that problem that Canadians have. Now, Mr.

Sp eaker, let me put it on the record, I am a very proud ethnic person, extremely proud of the Mennonite heritage that I come from, extremely proud of the language that my parents passed on to me, extremely proud of the accomplish ments artistically that the Winnipeg Mennonite Theatre Society provides to the greater community, extremely proud of the chorales and the music contributions that our system provides to me. One of the more successful amateur theatre orga nizations is run by the Winnipeg Mennonite Theatre organi zation. I can speak the same for every other cultural group in this society.

What we are being spoon-fed here is that we can only express our ethnicity or take pride in our heritage if, some where, it is prescribed in a silly piece of legi slation that the minis ter is presenting to this Chamber at this time. Well, as she chides the former government on abandoning these advo cacy groups, let us understand exactly what we are seeing here. This is old-f ashioned pork barreling at its best. It is buying votes and nothing else. Of course, there is always groups in something like that, and they shovel out the money.

That is what it is, pork-barreling, and this coming from a party that thought they re invented themselves. They are not the old dem ocrat; they are the new, Today's New Dem ocrats, and I find it demeaning. I find it demeaning that I have to be singled out. I have to be singled out in legis lation because of my background, that there are other members in this Chamber that have to be singled out because of their background. You know, I look at my Anglo friends and Scottish friends. They are okay. They do not

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 9 need special legisla tion, so, you know, if my friend the member from Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) has a problem with one of his roads that is falling away, he can go directly to the mini ster of highways and put in his request, but I cannot do it for my constituents because I come from Mennonites. But soon I will be, when this bill passes. So, Mr. Spea ker, I may get chastised by my caucus. You know, caucus can be pretty tough on a member. I may get chastised by my caucus.

They may rein me into line, and I may have to support this bill, but just sitting here lis tening to that nonsense coming out of the mouth of the Minis ter of Labour (Ms. Barrett), it of fended me. It simply of fended me. I do not need special legisla tion to recognize, to honour the heritage that I come from. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Ms. Barrett: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, and I am not sure what part of Beauchesne 's it is in, but I am sure that there is a reference in Beauchesne 's to the fact that, when a minis ter is referred to, the min ister's entire title should be used.

I am certainly not going to have any personal aspersions cast on my full title, which I would like to remind the member is Minister of Labour and Imm igration. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lakeside, on the same point of order. Mr. Eons: You know, Mr. Sp eaker, that you and I have a bit of a compact, like, I always accept your admonishm ents and always accept your guidance.

I do my very best to walk the straight and narrow in this House, and I will certainly apologize on this instance and ref er, now and in the future, to my, well, ju st about, deskma te or seatmate as the honourable Minister of Labour and Imm igration. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Labour and Imm igration, I thank the honourable Member for Lak eside. That should end the matt er. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lakeside still has time remaining. You still have time remaining. Mr. Enos: I have concluded my remarks. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member has concluded his remarks. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), that the debate now be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 26- The Winnipeg Commodity Exchange Restructuring Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immig ration (Ms.

Barrett), that Bill 26, The Winnipeg Commodity Exchange Restructuring Act (Loi sur Ia reorganisation de Ia Bourse des marcha ndises de Winnipeg), be now read a second time and be referred to a commit tee of this House. Motion presented. * (15: 10 ) Mr. Smith: Mr. Spea ker, Bill 26 will allow the Winnipeg Commodity Exchange to apply to continue under The Corporations Act as a share capital corporation. In so doing, a member's interest will be converted into shares. Status as a share capital corporation will provide the Exchange with a more flexible framework for management and decision making.

It will allow for needed capital raising and will demutualize the Exchange. A large ma jority of the members of the Exchange voted in support of this demutuali zation. Mr. Spea ker, the economic benefits, both direct and indirect, of the Winnipeg Commodity Exchange to the city of Winnipeg and to the province of Manitoba are well known. The Exchange feels strongly that this bill is needed to allow it to seek valuable allia nces with other exchanges, update its trading system and generally to move forward on a viable basis. Legisla tion having simi lar effect has been enacted in the province of Ontario to allow for

2I4 0 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 I the demu tualization of the Toronto Stock Exchange. Mr. Sp eaker, I move and recommend this bill for consideration. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I am sure that much could be said about this bill.

Having li stened to both sides of the argument, those who form a mi nority number but also are a ma jority in the trading, and then there are those who are a ma jority number who are a min ority in the trading, it is kind of like the old 80-20 adage: 20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the business, and 80 percent of the representatives on the Exchange do 20 percent of the business.

Now the small people, the group that does the smaller amount of business, the 80 percent of the members that do 20 percent of the business, are threatened by this bill and wish to be heard, so it behooves me at this time to move, seconded by the Member for Fort Garry- Mr. Speaker: Order. The member has a choice when rising to either adjourn debate or to speak to the bill. You cannot do both. I am going to seek some advice here, just to be sure. It is not our usual practice to start speaking to a bill and then move to adjourn debate, but the honourable member still has time remaining to speak to the bill. Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I move, seconded by the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), that debate now be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill29-The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immi gration (Ms. Barrett), that Bill 29, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur Ia location a usage d'habitation), be read a second time and referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: Mr. Spea ker, Bill 29 amends The Residential Tenancies Act to extend the exemption period for new rental construction from rent regulation from five years to I5 years. Mr. Spea ker, this was announced in the 200 I Budget speech. The lack of new con struction in private rental housing is an issue throughout Canada. Out of I46 000 housing starts in Canada in 19 99, fewer than 5000 were in private rental housing.

Here in Manitoba, it is estima ted by CMHC that between the years 200 1 and 20 16 , there wiii be a need for 600 to 700 additional rental units annually. This is needed to house the empty-nesters and new Manitobans. With the exemption of lif e-lease complexes, there has been no new construction in Winnipeg for more than I 0 years. Mr. Spea ker, this bill is evidence of our comm itment to the development of quality, affordable rental accommodation. I recommend this bill for consideration. Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I move, seconded by the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Sm ith), that debate on this bill be adjourned.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might seek leave of the House to allow the honourable member leave at a further date to speak on Biii 26. He was under the- [interjec tion] Okay. So I will not even finish asking, Mr. Speaker. We expect Mr. Doer in the House next Wednesday. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 8--The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Indu stry, Trade and Mines, Bill 8, The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur les mines et Ies mi neraux), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Spe aker, just a few comments on the record. I want to thank the minis ter for arranging an informa tional meeting where the reasons for the act to be brought forward were explained in great detail.

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2141 The only thing I would suggest, and I would suggest it to the Government, I mean, all the bills that they bring forward, is that there should be a review process in three to five years. If bills become outdated or no longer valuable they can be elim inated without going through the process of hunting them down and finding out where they are. So, with those few comments, Mr. Spea ker, we are prepared to let this move to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr.

Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 8, The Mines and Minerals Amendment Act. Is it the pl easure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Billl3- The Social Services Appeal Board and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Sale), Bill 13 , The Social Services Appeal Board and Consequential Amen dments Act (Loi sur la Commission d'appel des services sociaux et modifi cations correlatives), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose. Mr. Glen Cumm ings (Ste. Rose): Was the minis ter intending to speak to the bill or close debate? Mr. Spea ker, I am prepared to move this bill through to committee.

I will have some questions for the minis ter at that time about some of the imp acts of the changes that he is proposing, but, by and large, the tenets of this bill seem to be appropriate in making the Social Services Advisory Comm ittee, or the former Social Services Advisory Comm ittee, function in an appropriate manner. Some of the mechanics of some of the details I look forward to dis cussing in committee. *( 1 5:20) Mr.

Speaker: Prior to recognizing the Minister of Family Services and Housing, because if the honourable minis ter speaks he will be closing debate, are there any other members who wish to speak to this bill? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Spea ker, I just want to express my appreciation to my honourable critic for his support in principle for this legislation. I look forward to examining the details of the legisla tion in comm ittee and hearing from the publ ic in regard to this bill. I should tell the members of the House that we did have a fairly extensive communit y hearing process.

We had input from a wide number of groups, including members of the legal community. So I hope this bill does bring this legisla tion up to date and allow the Social Services Appeal Commit tee, which it now will be known as, to function effectively into the 21s t century. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members : Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 13 , The Social Services Appeal Board and Consequential Amendments Act. Is it the pl easure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr.

Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. * (15: 30) * * * Hon. Tim Sale (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that Mr. Speaker do now lea ve the Chair and the House resolve itself into a com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (15: 40) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Commit tee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of

214 2 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 Supply is considering the Estima tes of the Department of Health. There was a previous agreement of this commit tee to have a global discussion of the entire department and after completion of all questioning, pass all reso lutions. We will continue with the global discus sion. We are open for questions. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I just want to touch briefly on the topic that was raised in question period today about this father who had written a letter, actual ly to me on May 14 , and I belie ve it was cc'd to the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak).

I will pass this on to the minis ter right now. It is a situation where this father has written about his son Steven [phonetic} I will not use the last name, who suffered a serious back inju ry when he fell at a cottage in May of '97. Since then he has been experiencing chronic back pain with gradually increasing severity. He has ended up having a number of different tests. His pain continues to increase. It does not appear that he is able to get the treatments he needs in Manitoba, and it does not appear that he has timely access to care here in Manitoba.

He had to wait for an MRI, he was told here last summer, for 13 weeks. Because of that, they went to Grafton, North Dakota where he had an MRI in two days. Manitoba Health would not cover this MRI as it was available in Manitoba, despite the fact they had to wait months for it. The fam ily ended up paying $2400. Mr. Chair, during this time Steven [phonetic} was using Tylenol 3s to help him deal with pain. I note that he has now escala ted in terms of the kind of medi cation he has to take for his pain, and if I can find that again I will indicate what it was.

The MRI in the States did not reveal any conclusive evidence. When he came back to Winnipeg, they wanted the doctors in Winnipeg to look at the MRI that had been done in the States, and the radiologist here refused to look at it because it had been done in the Sta tes. This, of course, shocked the fam ily. It does beg the questions. I know this happens from time to time, probably more often than not, in terms of one doctor not wanting to, or radiologist not wanting to look at and use other tests that were done. Instead they get repeated.

Now, they did discover a procedure that was called decompression therapy that was available in Vancouver. That was discussed. Doctors here thought it might be something that could be done, and it was done in Vancouver. The fam ily again paid $2,400, but unfortunately there was little relief from that. A bone scan did not reveal the source of the problem and doctors were indicating there was nothing more that they could do. The boy then went for 29 physi otherapy visits and, of course, none of these is covered by Manitoba Health. They tried acupuncture to no avail. It just keeps going on and on.

They wanted to see a neurosurgeon, I guess, but were taken aback when they were told that it would take 13 months before they could ever get in to see a neurosurgeon. They then were exploring other therapies-and I will not get into all of it-but it does not look like he was getting any satisfactory responses from many of the people that they were talking to. By this point in time, Steven's [phonetic} pain has increased to the point where a fentanyl patch was now needed along with codeine. Fentanyl is highly addictive according to the data here. and that is true.

Steven [phonetic} is needing more and more of it to deal with the pain which by now has gone down his legs as well. Again, they went to the States in desperation. He also started having adverse reactions to all his drugs. He was kept in Grace Hospital for about six days because of all these adverse reactions to the drugs. He did go down to the States for a discogram. That did finally reveal that four discs are tom. There is a recom mendation for surgery, but this all has to be a decision, I guess, as to whether or not Manitoba Health is going to cover any of this.

According to the dad, who indicates our current problem is the refusal of Manitoba Health to cover the cost of a much-needed discogram in Grand Forks, North Dakota, in spite of a lengthy report sent to Manitoba Health from Steven's [phonetic} pain specialist in

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 3 Winnipeg, Doctor Hoy of Winnipeg, outl ining the need for the discogram and surgery. Doctor Damle, the pain specialist in Grand Forks, is also sending a letter to Doctor Hoy outlining the necessity of this operation and the urgency of Steven's [phonetic} situation. This father says: I am not a wealthy man, just a retired railroad cle rk. I never dreamed that there would be such little support available when any citizen of this country or province would require medical attention.

We have watched our son's condition deteriorate over the last year and must proceed with this surgery whether we can afford it or not. My fam ily and I are so frustrated with the health system in Manitoba that we are now prepared to go public, starting with this letter to you. I am going to pass this on. I know it was sent to the minis ter's office. I will pass on a copy of it anyway, and I would hope that some attention could be paid in terms of checking into this further to see if there is anything further that can be done with this particular case in Manitoba. Mr.

Chomiak: Certainly, Manitoba Health will look into this situation, as we often do. I know, over the years I was critic, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of cases like this that I general ly would write letters to the Minister of Health and ask the minis ter to look after. The standard practice in Manitoba is that the ministe r generally and the department go out of their way. That was the past practice, and it continues to be the practice to try to deal with the situation and remedy the situation for particular indi viduals.

I note the member brought it up in the House, and now she has brought it up in Estimates. I have got a copy of the letter, and I will have the matter reviewed with respect to this particula r situation, to review the situation for the purposes of the fam ily and the other matters relating to it. The member almost completely read the entire letter into the record. I am just looking at the particular record. I guess I am ju st reading now. There is a letter February 27 from the Health Sciences Centre from Doctor Sutherland to Doctor Hoy saying: Thank you for your letter of January 22.

Doctor Gordon and I have discussed the request for discogram on this patient. We feel that discogram is not indicated in this case and will not perform much. In our experience, the test of discography is very controversial with confusing results and a very limi ted clinic al indication. In our practice, the only indication that we consider valid for discogram is to assist in evaluation disc, morphology and at above levels of pla nned spinal fusion. We only perform discogram when it has been requested by the spine surgeon with whom we work most closely at the Health Sciences Centre.

Even in these cases, we are very selective as to the applica tion of this procedure. With the available information provided on this patient, we do not feel this discogram is indicated. Mr. Chairperson, I note that is appended to the letter, and we will take all of these matters into consideration when reviewing this matter. I, of course, cannot comment. I am always con cerned when fam ilies raise issues, and obviously we are concerned with the particular circum stances and revealing issues in this regard.

Of course, I rely upon the expertise of medical staff and the very efficient people in the department. * (15 :50) The member well knows that we do have a more significant coverage. It is not full coverage clearly. It may be adequate for some purposes. It clea rly is not, but we actually offer more by way of out-of-province coverage than I think any other jurisdiction in the country. So we do try to accommoda te needs.

Of course, we also promised a critical care fund, a shortages fund, which we put in place after the ele ction, and it is specifically gone because of the acuity and difficulty of the situation to cancer patients to provide more timely access to radiation therapy, which we have put in place dealing with this issue. I will have to have it addressed by the department and staff. The member raised it with me today. Today I noticed I was cc'd on this letter dated May 14. The member raised it in the House today, and now she has raised it in Estimates. For the record, she has passed on a copy of the letter to me.

I will have the depart ment review it and we will try to deal with it as expeditiously as we can. Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minis ter for that commitment. I will let the dad know that the

214 4 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 min ister has given it his attention. I think the letter may even indicate that there is a procedure scheduled for maybe the end of this month, which is only a few more days. I guess the financial hardship they are enduring is one of their concerns, but also the escalating pain. Having had a ruptured disk myself , I have a sense of what it is like to have back pain like that. It sounds like with this person's escala ting pain over the years since 19 97 that there certainly must be something there.

I note that the discogram that was done in the States has indicated that there are four areas along the spine where there is showing a problem. So I appreciate the fact that the department will look further into this particular issue. I would like to now get back on a few more questions related to where we finished of f yesterday with the Pan Am Clinic. I am not going to get into as many questions as I have, because I will probably save some for Con currence because of all of the other questions that I have. But there are a few that I would like to address today.

One of them, I guess we go back to probably where we left off yesterday in terms of facil ity fees. I wonder if the min ister could indicate for me, the amount of money that is being put forward for facil ity fees for the clinic that are identified in the Pricewaterhouse report go from something like $1.1 million to $1. 7 million over the five-year period, if the min ister could provide some detail as to what the facility fees are made up of. Mr. Chomiak: I belie ve it is an estima te based on potential volume of service at the clinic.

The ma jor advantage to the facil ity fees, of course, is that the investment will go back into the clinic and stay in the clinic for the purposes of reinvestment and enhanced work at that particular clinic. Mrs. Driedger: Do the facili ty fees also cover the millio n-or-so dolla rs of operating costs, all the overhead costs, nurses' salari es? When one looks at the financial statement for the clinic; it appears that there is a substantial amount of overhead costs. I am wondering if these over head costs are what constitute part of the facil ity fees. Mr.

Chomiak: The specifics in regard to that are delinea ted, as I understand it, in terms of projections in the report. Cl early there are ongoing overhead costs. I know the member had questioned whether or not a clinic could have overhead costs, but there are overhead and operating costs that continue for the operation of a clinic. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minis ter tell me if those overhead costs are incorporated into the facil ity fees that the Government pays to the clinic? Mr.

Chomiak: The revenue and expenses, as outlined in the report, were based on the proje ctions, I believe based on past practice and anticipation of future services. A specific deline ation between whether or not portions of the facil ity fees go to specific aspects of the opera ting costs I am not certain of at this point. Mrs. Driedger: On April 26 the minis ter indicated that over the past two years we paid $7.4 million in facility fees to rent the facili ties.

That is where he was indicating that is where the $7.4 million, that figure, came from in establis hing the price that the Government was going to pay for the clinic. That is in Hansard. That is where I am seeking the minis ter's cla rification, because it is in Hansard, and that is the exact statement of the minis ter. That is why I am asking him. That is exactly why I am asking him what he me ant and what is included in these particular facili ty fees. In fact, I am trying to find it exactly right now so that I could read it back. Perhaps the minis ter wants to comment on that while I search for this. Mr.

Chomiak: I will have to see the specific reference in Hansard before commenting. Mrs. Driedger: While I am searching for this, the statement, would the minis ter confirm that rent was part of what is included in facil ity fees? Mr. Chomiak: I do not know if the member understands. I do not know what reference the member is making to facil ity fees or where the member is going with this, but the member should be aware that certain centres, surgical centres, charged facil ity fees that comprised some portions of their overhead costs and rela ted services to provide medical services.

These facil ity fees are comprised of different

May 23, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 45 components for different centres, as I under stand, but they are a cost that was borne by patients. The former government changed the legis lation to deal with this issue because the charging of facility fees on insured services is in contravention of the Canada Health Act and Manitoba was being fined thousands of dolla rs a month for allowing this to occur.

Consequently, the former Minister of Health amended the act to designate certain places as surgical centres under contract to the Government of Manitoba, where effectively the facility fees were contained within a contracted relationship between Mani toba Health and the particula r surgical centre. As I recall, the reference to rental is a comparison I think to the effect that when one is operating in a place that one does not own a facil ity and as one is paying a portion of facil ity fees, that can be construed as a form of rent payment for use of that facili ty.

It could be construed as various other things, but one does not get an asset, one does not retain any equity in that particular structure. The difference when one purchases one, one has equity and one has an asset. That is the difference between owning something and renting something.

Effectively, the analogy that I belie ve I was drawing was between paying for a facility that one does not own and paying for the ongoing operating cost of that facili ty, as well as the leaseholder im provements, as well as the cost borne by the particular owner, you are effectively paying, or it ef fectively amounts to rent versus actual ly owning a facili ty. So that was, as I recall, the particular reference and the analogy that I was drawing between rent and ownership. Facility fees comprise a number of costs and were, as I understand it, a variety of different costs for different centres. * (16: 00) Mrs.

Driedger: The comment that the minis ter made actual ly in Question Period on April 26 was: "When members opposite were in government they were paying $68,000 a month in penalties to the federal government for private clinics. They entered into agreements with private clinics that have paid $7.4 million in facil ity fees for two years to rent those private clinics." That is the end of the quote in this particular part where the minis ter was making reference to facili ty fees and rent.

I would wonder if the minis ter, in what his previous answer was, whether he was indi cating that fee for service is also part of the facil ity fee. Mr. Chomiak: I think I was fairly clear in my comments in terms of what I just stated, both in my previous answer and in the House. Mrs. Driedger: I will leave this part of it. As I indicated, once I have a chance to peruse this, I will certainly be bringing this issue back up in concurrence, because I think there certainly are some more questions to be asked around the issue of facility fees, but I do not want to get really bogged down at this point in time.

I do want to ask the minis ter, still staying on the topic of the Pan Am Clinic : Is the minis ter aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics for insured services? Mr. Chomiak: I am not sure what the member is asking in that question. Mrs. Driedger: I think the question is very straightforward. Is the minis ter aware that patients who go to private clinics for insured services do not pay user fees for those services? Mr.

Chomiak: You know, I do not know what line of questioning the member is going down, but there is provision in the Canada Health Act that outlines the fact that if an insured service is provided in an appropriate facil ity additional user fees should not be charged. Mrs. Driedger: Is the minis ter aware for the last several years user fees for insured services were not charged to patients at any of the three private clinics that were publicly funded? Mr.

Chomiak: There were arrangements entered into between the former government, arrangements that we continued ourselves, with surgical centres to pay a contractual price for a number of services that were offered to patients.

214 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 Mrs. Driedger: The minister seems to be a little bit evasive with answering this question. I think it is a very straightforward question. Is the minis ter aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics such as Western, Pan Am when it was private, Midland, for services that were covered under the insured services aspect of what government pays for? Mr. Chomiak: I ju st want to correct the member. Pan Am still is private. Mrs. Driedger: The minis ter is continuing to avoid the question. Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I am assuming, I suppose, that Pan Am, until the deal is signed, is probably as he says. Certainly it would be something that we think Manitobans would be better served if it stayed that way, so the Government did not come in and buy bricks and mortar and not in any way ensure or guarantee that we are going to have any better service or more procedures done. I think all the stars in heaven are going to have to line up absolutely perfectly before we are going to see this $1 .2-million profit or savings they are talking about over five years.

I think that chances of that seem to be very, very slim, and I think the stars are all going to have to line up perfectly before that is ever going to happen. So I am a bit sceptical about that.

That is going to be a wish that this Government is going to wish does come true, but I do have some scepticism about that because there are too many variables that can impact on that, particularly over five years, and particularly with the fact we are seeing a huge amount of money going into repair costs on an annual basis, which really begs the question of why one would want to buy a building that appears to be crumbling when we are seeing almost $70,000 a year going into repair costs. That seems a bit strange. The minis ter is doing a really, really good job of avoiding answering this one particular question.

I would like to ask him again: Is the minister aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics for insured services? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, I am surprised the member considers herself a better expert in terms of financial anal ysis than Pricewaterhouse that reviewed this in an independent third-party review of this operation and indicated that profit would be realized after five years. This is the same member who said somehow we were hiding information when in fact informa tion was provided publicly that she is quoting from.

So I am a little bit sceptical of some of the pre dictions from the member opposite with respect to the future of Pan Am Clinic . We have indicated that we are not going to stand pat. We are going to have to change the health care system. I know the member has particular ideological positions that she wants to take in terms of where we should go. Our position is that we want to be pragmatic and we want to see what we can do to try to improve the situation and to try to provide for more expansive and more appropriate service.

All of the indicators are, from all of the reports, that we have to move more to day surgeries. We should do it in the least expensive alternatives in order to maximize the number of surgeries and to decrease the cost, and by virtue of decreasing the cost you can maximize more surgeries. The members opposite seem stuck in the 19 60s, either the 19 60s where it all has to be done in a hospital, or secondly just wants it to be done in private clinics. I do not know exactl y. The member seems to swing back and forth between the two extremes. This is an innovative approach; it is a different approach.

Like all things that are innovative, there is controversy and there is difficulty. For the member to outright attack holus-bolus and not consider the options is certainly something that is her prerogative. But I ju st point that out because the member continues to put on the record information about a "crum bling building", et cetera about costs. A lot of information that was put on the record by members opposite has been proved to be inaccurate. Let me outline it. The Premier went fishing with Brian Post!. Wrong. That the Premier went fishing with Wayne Hildahl. Wrong.

That the costs for the repairs were not removed from the purchase price. Wrong. That we did not talk about the surgical partnership and, Mr. Chair person, the member stood up and did a point, did a matter of privilege on an

interpretation. The member stood

May 23, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 7 up and did a point of privilege or the member's coll eague, on an

interpretation on my comments in the House saying somehow I had misled the House when I did not say-and there was a newspaper

article from the very day that it happened reporting the very point that members said, reporting the very point that the member opposite had declared. * (16:10 ) So the member opposite has been of f target quite a bit on this particular item. Way off target, Mr. Chairperson, so I have to take with a boulder of salt a lot of the comments, the offhand comments. But I am trying to stay on point because I know the member wants to ask a lot of questions, and I am trying to stay on point and so I will at this point return to the specific question the member asked.

I would lik e the member to let me know if she is aware of any instances where those particula r clinics charge user fees, we would like to know that. Mrs. Driedger: For some reason the minis ter is really relu ctant to answer the question. There is no ulterior motive in asking it, it is actually just a straightforward question. I am not going to spring anything on him or surprise him with any sideswipe of any kind. It is ju st pure and simple. Is the minis ter aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics for insured services? Mr.

Chomiak: Arrangements have been entered into between private clinics and the Governmen t of Manitoba where a contractual number of services are provided between the private clinic and the Governmen t of Manitoba. Those arrangements were put in place by the previous government. We continue those arrangements at present. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, he did it again. He is avoiding answering my question. We may have to do this for the rest of the afternoon. I am very curious I guess as to why something as straightforward as this question does not bring a straightforward answer from the minis ter.

It is, I am sure, it is something he is total ly fam iliar with. I will ask it again. Is the minis ter aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics for insured services? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, under the Canada Health Act, if insured services have a facil ity fee or a payment attached to it, the Province is liable for penalty as was the previous government that was penalized $68,000 a month for permitting facil ity fees to be charged for insured services. Mrs.

Driedger: If the minis ter is aware that patients do not pay user fees at private clinics for insured services, why would he still use that information when he speaks to the media on the topic? Mr. Chomiak: I do not know what reference the member is specifically making, and I would appreciate it if she could point me to a specific reference, Mr. Chair, because I want to comment accurately. Mrs.

Driedger: I would hope that the minis ter would want to comment accurately, too, because there have been a number of instances where the min ister throws out the fact that they are going to elim inate user fees from being charged at private clinics. He knows full well that user fees are not charged at private clinics for insured services. Yet I think in a fearm ongering way in order to try to maybe sell his ideology a li ttle bit better in terms of supporting why the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic happened, it helps him politically.

I think he feels, to throw out the fact that he will try to make it look like they are going to be the good guys and get rid of user fees at private clinics when, in fact, user fees for insured services have not been charged at private clinics for some number of years. I would ask the minis ter then, is he aware there is no queue jumping at private clinics because, for instance, with cataract surgery there is a centralized waiting list, and it is managed by the Mi sericordia Health Centre? In fact, that actual ly oblit erates queue jumping. Mr. Chair, is the minis ter aware that there is no queue jumping? Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. One of the advantages of the public system is that it does allow you to maintain a particula r waiting lis t, centralized and that one of the advantages of the public health care system is that the system provides on the basis of need and requirement.

21 48 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 23, 200 1 That has always been a feature of the system, and it is certainly something that we want to continue to encourage. Mrs. Driedger: Certainly centralized waiting lists could be beneficial to patients in many ways, but again we have heard a number of times the minis ter throwing out whether it is publicly in one place or another that they are go

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bf1b58019edb05631a22a23aa2cc070a02f8552c

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