........... VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELHUNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, HARCH 16, 1984 No. 5

March 16, 1984 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape 161 PK - 1 Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I am pleased at this time to announce to the hon. House of Assembly that on the evening of March 15, yesterday, a memorandum of agreement was signed between the negotiating committees representing the Newfoundland Nurses' Union,- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DINN: - government and the Newfoundland Hospital Association.

The memorandum of agreement was reached with the assistance of my department's concilation officer, Mr. Robert Rex. The Nurses' Bargaining Committee will be recommending this agreement to the 2,500 nurses across the Province for ratification. Until the agreement is ratified, the details will not be released. SOME HON. MEMBERS: '~ MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, the only thing that we can say about the so-called Ministerial Statement is that we look forward to the details of the agreement which will be released in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! .•_I 432

'~ March H, 1984 Tape 161 PK - 2 MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Speaker, I am pleased to announce today ~he approval of an ocean industries capital assistance grant o= $L85,500 in favour of Newfoundland Oceans Research and Development Corporation Limited {NORDCO) to assist in the cost of purchasing a new mainframe computer system and anci llary equipment .

Installation of this new equipment will enable NORDCO Limited to carry out major modelling projects both in signal processing and oceanographic areas, including large-scale numerical modelling and finite analysis, and to pursue certain types of oceanographic work that has previously gone to firms outside this Province, thereby now maximizing benefits to the local economy. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: This project will allow NORDCO to maintain and further develop its credibility and leadership in the application 433

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 162 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: of new technologies to the ocean resources development sector, not only in Newfoundland but on a worldwide basis. The expansion involves the creation and/or retention of ten permanent jobs initially, with prospects for the creation of thirty to thirty-five new permanent jobs in the longer term. To date, OICAP grants, totalling approximately $2.3 million have been committed to seventeen projects which have created directly some 268 full-time and 164 part-time or sea~onal jobs, although two of these offers, valuing $392,000, were subsequently not accepted.

This program, funded in total by the Prov~nce, has been instrumental in spurring further private sect?r investments totalling $12.6 million in these seventeen approved projects. The Ocean Industries Capital Assistance Program (OICAP~ is designed to stimulate further development of the ocean industries sector by encouraging the expansion and growth of Newfoundland companies and. by helping to attract new ocean-related, medium and high technology industry to Newfoundland and Labrador. In order to achieve maximum effectiveness, the programme was made complementary to existing federal and provincial programmes.

Eligible applicants include Canadian firms or foreign entities which manufacture products or equipment, or provide technical services in support of commercial and scientific activities for use in or on the ocean. Generally, eligibility for assistance is based on the benefits of the proposal to the overall Newfoundland economy, particularly with respect to the maximization of 'value added'. Preference is given to firms owned or controlled by persons normally resident in 4 'l • .;4

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 162 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: Newfoundland and Labrador, and to other Canadian or foreign entities who enter into joint ventures with Newfoundland firms. Financial assistance is in the form of a conditional grant forgiven over a four year period at the rate of 25 per cent per annum. Maximum assistance for eligible manufacturing and s·ervice firms is 50 per cent of the approved capital cos ·ts, less the amount of assistance available from the Department of Regional Industrial Expansion (DRIE), if any, to a maximum OICAP grant of $500 ., 000. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER {:Russell}_: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that in connection with this Ministerial Statement that it is one with which I agree. As the han. gentleman probably gathered from my" province-wide . broadcast recently, I think this is an area, Mr. Speaker, where we can do something worthwhile. r thi.nk the minister and his people,in connection with ocean research and so forth, are on the right track. And, Mr. Speaker, this is one area that I would like to s-ee developed.

I think we should concentrate a great deal of our efforts in this area because our whole history, our whole tradition and way of life ls based on marine life 1 as we are stuck right out h.ere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. 435

-, March 16, 1984 Tape No. 163 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: We have a Cold Ocean ~esearch Centre being developed here at Memorial University, We have the new College of Fisheries that is going to be built, and we have NORDCO. Mr. Speaker, there is no . end to the research and the technology that we can develop in this Province that can be sold to other parts of the world. And we are all for that kind of development, Mr. Speaker.

It is a good move and I hope that the administration will not allow it to become a political football,that nobody will panic, that they will keep their cool because this is an area where we can develop technology and techniques that can be sold throughout the world. w·e would like to see more of this type of thing going on in this Province, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Health (Mr.

House), it is his turn in the barrel today, Could the minister tell the House when the people of the Province can expect to have the $5 a day user fee abolished as recommended in the ~oyal Coro~ission report on Hospital and Nursing Eome Costs in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, a royal commission report has been received by government. It has not been studied totally by government. It has not been accepted totally by government. It is in the process of being reviewed.

That is one recommendation and when and if the decision is made to accept that recommendation it will be roade known at that time. 436

March 16,1984 Tape No. 164 ah-l MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR.NEARY: The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman surely must be aware that there is a budget coming down on Tuesday. Monday is a holiday, St. Patrick's Day, and on Tuesda~' we will have a budget that is supposEd to outline plans and give us some idea of what kind of a blueprint the administration have for dealing with these matters like the one I just raised. Surely the minister must have had some input into that budget, ean he tell us if a decision has been made · or when will it be made to eliminate the $5 a day user fee?

When will it be abolished? · The Royal Commission that we paid substantial sums of ~oney to to write the recommendations recommended that the $5 a day user fee be abolished. When will it be abolished? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the han. member talked about the budget coming down on Tuesday and so on.I.t is a budgetary matter and,if it is contained in the budget,it will be known at that time.

It is a budgetary consideration~ I did make a statement that,while the report has been received , it has not been accepted in total by government.But it has been under review and that particular aspect of it is a budgetary consideration. The han. member will have to await the budget to get an answer to his question. MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR.NEARY: 437 Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the A supplementary. In the

March 1.6, 1984 Tape No. 164 ah - 2 MR. NEARY: first answer I received the minister said no decision has been made. MR. SIMMS: No, he did not. MR. .NEARY: I presume for all pl;'actical purposes the budget is now ·complete and in the hands of the printers, probably already printed. And the hen. gentleman should know whether or not it is included. He did have input in that budget because his department is one of the big spenders of government. Now has the deci .sion been made or has it not been made?

I do not want the hen. gentleman to tell me what the decision is, but has a decision been made on the $5 user-pay fee in hospitals. MR. WA.RimN: Yes.or no. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Health. 438

~, .March 16, 1984 Tape 165 EC - l MR. HOUSE: The hon. member is asking me a question on what is going to be in the budget on Tuesday. I am saying to the hon. member that that information will become available on Tuesday and I would suggest that he wait until that time. He asked me if I had any discus- sions on it. I will say, yes 1 I have, but the budget will reveal what these discussions have been. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKEE (Russelll; A supplementary, the han. the Leader of tfie Opposition. MR.

NEARY: All my question required was a simple yes or no answer, Has there been a decision made? The hon. gentleman does not seem to understand simple questions. Let me ask him another question about the Royal Commission on Hospital and Nursing Horne Costs: Will the minister tell the House that he has recommended to the administration there opposite that a health tax be implemented, as was recently implemented in British I • Columbia 'and instituted in that province? An~: Mr.

Speaker, if the answer is yes, that he has recommended a health tax, as was included in the Royal Commission's recommendations, would such a tax contravene the provision of the federal government proposed new Medical Health Act? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the han. member is asking me about what I have recommended. The Royal Commission had a ~andate to recommend to government any financing arrangements that they could 439

March 16, 1984 Tape 165 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: think of as to new methods of raising funds for health care costs. I had stated earlier, Mr. Speaker, that the ~nvrtl Commission report had been received by government but no decision had been made on any of its recommendations. The hon. member is asking me if I made recommendations. I do not make recommendations for tax increases one way or another but it was in the report to government to look at and I aw sure it has been assessed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: It is simply incredible!

The hon. gentleman just made a statement again,and I wrote it down: 'No decision has been made ,on any of the recom- mendations,' ¥et he told me a few moments ago, 'wait for the budget. ' SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: ~'Vhy should I wait for the budget if no decisions have been made? Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that this Commission report has been in the hands of the administration for some time. Some of these recommendations could have been implemented quickly, immediately. I will go on to the next question, Mr. Speaker, about the nursing homes in the Province.

I would like for the minister to tell the House if any decision has been made on this recommendation that his department should take over the operation and the management of the Province's nursing homes, as recommended in the Commission's report? 440

---. March 16, 1984 Tape No. 166 MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell / : MR. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, again 1as I keep saying to the hon. member,the report was received, it ±s in the process of being studied by both departments involved -incidentally, those arethe Department of Social Services and the Department of Health, The recommendations were, of course,to put the nursing homes under the Department of Health.

The repor~ as I have mentioned, has not been accepted, it has not been rejected. ~here a~e~some aspects of the nursing homes now under Health and some still under Social Services.So the recommendations have not been accepted nor rejected because the government have not made a final decision on~- And, Mr. Speaker, I might add, it is going to t~ke some time to csmment or to have that report finally accepted because there are some 217 recommendations, some of which have six and seven parts, and it is something that is going to take a lot of time and a lot of study.

I reiterate it is a good report but it cannot be accepted or rejected or dealt with overnight. Certain parts of it obviously have been used. It was brought down by February 15 to give us some information or to help us with budgetary considerations 1but it is going to take a lot of time before the report is going to be finally dealt with. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! Good answer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what an incredible performance! They must intend to study the report to death. Mr.

Speaker, some of these recommendations should have been implemented bv now. '•!hat is the minister's views, by the way - perhaps he can tell the House - on nursing students' tuition? It was recommended 441

March 15, 19 84 Tape No. 166 l-4.J - 2 MR . NEARY: by the Co!IU!li.ssion of Enquiry that the nursing student~ ~~~m~ncing their studies in September 19 84, that their tuition be increased, be not less than $500 a vear. What is the minister's vie•.-rs on that? You have young people who have applications 442

March 16, 1984 Tape 167 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: in for nursing school and they would like to know as soon as possible what is going to happen. What about the recommendation that their allowances be dropped altogether and that they pay not less than $500 a year tuition for going into nursing school? What is the minister's views on that? And when can we expect a decision on that recommendation? MR. SP EAKER (Russell) : MR. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, again that is one of 217 recommendations ~hat is a budgetary one. I would imagine that has been discussed in the financial circles. Mr.

Speaker, my view is not important, I will express exactly what the Commission-said. The 'commission said that nursing students now at the University are paying tuition, vocational students are paying tuition, teachers and all other people who are training at our institutions .are paying tuition,and they recommended that nurses in training in our hospital schools pay tuition. Mr. Speaker, I do not see any reason why it could not happen, but I am not recommending it now,and I am not saying that I am for or against it because it is not important at this time.

Students who will be enrolling into nursing next Fall will know by that time what the policy will be, and it is not necessary for them to know now before the Budget, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SP EAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: It is absolutely incredible. The hon. gentleman said, 'My view it is not important: His view, meaning the minister's view,is not important. Well,whose view is important if the minister's view is not important? You know,if you did not hear it with your own ears you would not believe it,would you? No wonder the hon. gentleman would smile. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 443

March 16, 1984 Tape 167 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has entered into the realm of debate and I would ask him to pose a question. MR. NEARY: No way I would do that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what about the recommendation

Section 471 in the Commission's report. Can the minister tell the House when the government will be conducting the detailed provincial bed study as recommended in the Royal Commission's report? Can the minister assure the House- surely the minister can do this, Mr. Speaker- :an he assure the House that there would be no further bed closures in this Province in any of our hospitals until the study is conducted and made public? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is asking me a specific question with regard to 217 items on a report that I have mentioned has not been fully studied and fullyreported on. This is an executive

summary that the hon. member has got. There are about 800 pages 1 I think 1 of details to wade through and to analyze. 444

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 168 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: The fact of the matter is there has been a fairly detailed study gone one before this commission report on hospital beds across the Pr .ovince. We had a detailed study done in Central Newfoundland. All I can assure the han. member is that by Canadian standards Newfoundland hospitals, Newfoundlanders, have the most beds per 1,000 population in Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: As a matter of fact it is almost five per 1,000 people - 4.9, I think, is the figure.

And what the commission is saying is a lot of these beds are under- utilized and a lot of them are vacant. What we mean by•under- utilized' is they are not: used for acute care, a lot of them are used for chronic care. And, of course, obviously_before any beds are going to be closed there aregoing to be s~udies carried out because studies are ongoing all the time. So it is not something that you can say overnight that we are going to complete a study and we will do this tomorrow or the next day.

This is an ongoing thing, I will assure the han. member that the Department of Health 1 incidentally as shown in this report 1 the Department of Health has done a magnificant job in addressing the health care needs. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h~ar. MR. HOUSE: If ever there was a report that was complimentary to a department, Mr. Speaker, that particular report is. And it is the report that is saying that we did not give savage cuts to hospitals last year, it said that we gave enough money to hospitals last year , when the hon. members over there wanted us to give another $30 million.

So I will say to the han. member that the Department of Health is in good hands and I will assure the hon. member that bed closures will only take place if necessary of if they are not needed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 445

March 16, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: ..,.. Tape No. 168 SD - 2 Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. Leader I always thought, Mr. Speaker, that Royal Commissions were appointed to do a job that the department could not do themselves. In this particular instance there was one hundred and some - odd recommendations made - MR. WARREN: For improvements. MR. NEARY: - for improvements, Mr. Speaker, things that the han. gentleman could not do and the administration there opposite could not do. Mr.

Speaker, we saw what happened in Education when the h.on. gentleman was there. We saw that deteriorate - MR. SPEAKER (Russell)_: MR. NEARY: same thing with Health. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - and now they are going to do the Order 1 please:· Th.e han. Leader of the Opposition (_Mr. Neary} is again getting into the realm of debate and I would ask him to pose a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I certainly do not mean to get into the realm of debate 1 I just want to state a few facts. Mr.

Speaker, I will have to leave the han. gentleman because obviously he does not have a handle on what is going on in his department and I will have to wait 446

... March 16, 1984 Tape No. 169 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: for the budget and I will come back to it again. But before I take my seat I have a question to put to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if there is any way that his department, or any department of government, any agency of government, can control the display of magazines, certain types of pornographic literature and magazines that have been brought into this Province and displayed in the bookstores and on book shelves?

Is there any way at all that the minister can cut down on the distribution and the display and sale of this pornographic literature? And is it possible for the minister's departnent to ban the sale of murder stories, such as the magazine used recently as evidence in the murder trial in Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the problem referred to by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is a matter which,ef course 1preoccupies a number of people throughtout the Province and throughout Canada.

As tre hon. gentleman is p~obably aware 1 there are some proposed amendments to the criminal Cede which will assist law enforcement in this area. One of the big problems is,of course,that the Criminal Code makes reference to obscenity, it does not make reference to pornography. But I think that one of the big difficulties is with respect to obscenity. Now whenever there is a complaint laid,then the matter is investigated and ~f the evidence is there a prosecution would ensue; I really 447

March 16, 1984 Tape No . 169 NM- 2 MR . OTTENREU1ER: believe that the real answer does require amendments to the Crimi nal Code which would be more strict, more rigid, and us ·e a term either different than obscenity or give a more workable definition of obscenity. Apart from the strictly la\'1 enforcement aspects of it, certainly responsible store owners should at the very least have this material not displayed publicly where children 448

March 16,1984 Tape No.l70 ah-1 MR.OTTENHEIMER: contact with it. I think the real solution is an amendment of the Criminal Code so that the ob~cenity matter is given a more workable definition and that the hands of law enforcement are not restricted to the extent that they are now. MR. CALLAN: Mr. ·Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Bellevue. MR.CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) regarding the Come By Chance oil refinery. I have had those questions for several days.

I asked the minister some questions last Fall,before we adjourned for the Christmas recess,and the minister said he was going to investigate and he would get some answers. Now I understand that officials from Petro Canada were in St. John's recently and had some discussions and met with the minister. Would the minister tell the House what is the latest word on Come By Chance? Is it going to be sera~? Is there any new hope that it may reopen? Could the minister give us an update on these recent meetings? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as the han. member , of course, is well aware,because he takes a great interest and it is to his credit that he takes an extremely active interest in this whole matter, he is well aware that the decision is not ours as to what happens with the refinery. ?.ffi..NEARY: No, you gave up total power. DR.COLLINS: We never did own the refinery, of course,we never did have power of authority to make decisions on the refinery. It is unfortunate that the refinery was 449

March 16,1984 Tape No . 170 ah-2 DR.COLLINS: constructed under a previous administration the way it was,but anyway that is all past history . Anyway,we never did have power of control over the refinery. When it was sold by the owners at that time - that was the receivers, Kleinworth Benson in Great Britain and the ECDG,the government financing ageny in Great Britain to whom the ownership of the refine .ry fell after the bankruptcy - when they sold the refinery to Petro Canada 1we entered into an agr e ement with Petro Canada through a letter of intent that t hey would keep us i nformed as need be on what their plans were and what their prospects were. 450

. ., Harch 16, 1984 Tape No. 171 HJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: Now I think it is important to remember that,when Petro Canada bought the refinery 1 they gave no commitment, nor I suppose could they be ex?ected to give a commitment, that they would definitely and without any shadow of a doubt rehabilitate and reactivate the refinery. What they did was to take it on in good faith and say that we will preserve the refinery while studying the unfolding of oil industry events in the whole world to see if this can be made into a viable proposition.

The letter of intent was designed not only to keep us informed by physical meetings but also designed to give information to a committee that was set up called the Co-ordinating Committee,and that has been going on all throughout these painful years since the refinery was closed down. Now,as the han. member rnentioned 1 we did have a meeting recently with the senior Vice President of Petro Canad? ~nd some of his officials. This was at our request.

We have requested these meetings at irregular intervals as new events carne up or questions arose and whatever. r,'hen we sat dmm with them, we went over 1again 1what their plans were, how they saw the possibility for marketing in the United States in particular but really throughout the world, what the economics would be related to the cost of oil, the cost of rehabilitating the refinery and the profit margin thereafter. And at that time they told us that they had not come up with a more hopeful scenario than they had come up with at previous meetings, the conditions still were not there.

They pointed out that there had been continued close do~ms of refineries not only in the United States but also in Canada itself and that there was still an overcapacity and that the refinery itself could not be rehabilitated at this time. They did point out-and I think this is only realistic- 451

March 16, 1984 Tape No . 171 ~- 2 DR. COLLINS: the" Ai -' ooint ou ': t''-" .t the longer the refinery remains unre habil itated the more out -of ­ date it becomes, the more technology changes, the gr eater cost it would be to bring the re£inery back to anything like an operating venture. So at that point we asked them to undertake particular studies because we were aware that time was not in fav our of the refinery. We asked them to undertake particular studies and tried to come up with a firm position one wa y or the other and they undertook 452

March 16, 1984 Tape 172 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: to do that and we expect to hear from them in a very short while, perhaps in a matter of weeks, as to a more definitive notion on what they plan to do, and at that time I will be glad to pass the information we get from them along to the House. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Bellevue. Hr.

Speaker, I heard the minister on the airways once during the last three weeks and he gave the impression that he was resigned to the fact that the thing would be scrapped and done away with, because the minister said, you know, it costs Petro-Canada $25,000 a month to keep the refinery in mothballs and he did not see that continuing for very long. But then, I think it was the next day or shortly thereafter, I heard the minister say that the Corne ~y Chance refinery had some of what the minister called construction-type work done to it.

Would the minister please elaborate and tell the House what kind of construction work was there and what was the purpose for that? You know, if there is no future for it, and it looks bleak, what kind of construction-type work was done? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I think I did give this information on a previous occasion. The work really was of two sort~. One, some of the insulation material had become so deteriorated that it was no longer protecting the refinery, its deteriorated condition was actually endanger­ ing the refinery, so that material was taken off.

Secondly, there was some valuable catalytic materials in the refinery which, of course, were just lying there ·doing no good. Those could be used elsewhere and they were taken out and 453

March 16, 198 4 Tape 172 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: used elsewhere. And the idea was that if it were necessary to put them back they coulO. be put back, but,in the meantime, these valuabJ..e materials were just lying there doing no good and they were used elsewhere in Petro-Canada's operation . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: The hon. the member for Mr.

Speaker, the minister has said they have asked Petro-Canada to do some investigating and so .me further studies and so on on the prospects, But what is the Depart:lrent of Flll.ance doing, the minister's own department, and the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and the gentleman who is now sitting next to him, for example, when they were in Europe recen .tly?

You know, when these various government depart­ ment officials travel around the world looking for new markets for this and that or new industry to be established in this Province, have there been any efforts made by ei th e :~:: the minister's department or 454

~..Yarch 16, 1984 Tape No. 17'3 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: the ~1inister of Development's (Mr. Nindsor) department, you knmo1, to probably get some prospective buyers? Because obviously everybody ·around the world knows that we have the oil offshore and it is just a matter of time when the refinery, obviously, or so we hope, will be a great asset to somebody involved - perhaps J. R. might be interested in buving it. What efforts have the minister's department or the Minister of Development made to find developers? l.ffi. WINDSOR: MR. CALLAN: HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : \~:Tho do you want to answer? I do not care.

Does the hon. Minister of Development have leave to answer the question? SOME HON. MEMBERS : HR. SPEAKER: Yes. Agreed. The hon. the Minister of Development. HR. WINDSOR: J.'.l'..r. Sy;Jeaker, certainly government is not without knowledge of the importance of the come By Chance refinery and the opportunity that that presents to perhaps attract petroleum-related industries. In fact, we have had discussions with companies who may perhaps be interested in being involved in Corne By Chance as part of a petrochemical complex.

And from my perspective, at least at this point in time, it would certainly seem to me that if Corne By Chance has a future it may not be as a ?Ure refinery but as a refining operation in conjunction with a petrochemical complex, and there is some interest in that. This is long-term, Mr. Speaker, and it will obviously depend on our ability to have some control over what takes place offshore and ensure that some of the benefits from the offshore accrue to this Province in that we have the ability to ensure that some of the product from offshore comes to this Province for further ~recessing.

There are real notentials 455

"L: r1arch 16, 1984 Tape No . 173 so - 2 MR . WINDSOR: there and, ves, we have had discussions with international comPanies that have some interest . MR . WARREN: M.r . Speaker . MR .: SPEAKER (Russell) : The han . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR . w~~N: Mr . Soeaker, I have a question for the ~1inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) also. I gathe r from the news report this morning that the minister attributes the loss in sales tax to cigarette smuggling into the Province.

Could the mini ster elaborate on what was said in the news this morning? t·lould he venture to say what would be the number of dollars, in his estimation, lost in revenue to Newfoundland by cigarette smuggling into the Province? A 456

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 174 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, of course, it hardly needs saying that it is difficult to get accurate statistics on smuggling. Smugglers do not file reports and so on and so forth 1 so one can only indirectly get at the figures. Just as a little bit of NM - 1 a

preamble, Mr. Speaker, smuggling is related - again this is a truism,I suppose- smuggling is related to the fact that in one area an item is more costly than it is in another area. If it was of the same cost there obviously would not be any smuggling. But you cannot,therefore,look at just the high cost of tobacco, shall we say,in this Province, you would have to look at the low cost in other provinces. And,of course 1 strangely enough,one of the lowest costs areas for tobacco is Nova Scotia.

They seem to have kept their tax on tobacco products at an unusually low level, lower than in New Brunswick, lower than in PEI, lower than in Quebec, lower than in Ontario and so on and so forth. So there is this interface here between ourselves and Nova Scotia which is almost unique,and that is unfortunate but I mean those are the facts. Anyway, as far as we can determine, on the basis of the comparative decline in apparent tobacco consumption in various provinces - and just let me explain that. The only way we can really gage tobacco consumption is by what taxes we gather.

Now obviously the tax you gather is related to either consumption or the payment of tax. jf you have lower consumption you get less revenues, but also if you do 457

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 174 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: not pay the tax you get lower revenues. So when we have lower revenues of 1 say 1 20 per cent,which we have had 1 and New Brunswick has lower revenues of,say 15 per cent,you can say there is a 15 per cent loss in either consumption or that much margin in increased smuggling. We estimate that Newfoundlanders probably have not decreased their actual consumption more than anywhere else.

So our loss of revenues is likely to some extent, related to that measure of smuggling and 1 again it is only a ballpark figure, we think we might have lost some- thing of the order of about $6 million through the smuggling mechanism. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. member for I guess, Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister, in view of the fact that several businesses on the Newfoundland and Labrador/Quebec border, in particular in the Labrador City/Wabush area and in the L'Anse-au-Clair/ L"Anse-aux-Meadows are finding it very difficult to conti?ue in operation, one of facts that has been known by the bussinesses, by the Chamber of Commerce in both areas,is that there are a lot of goods being brought into Labrador from Quebec, from Blanc Sablon and from Fermont and so on. 458

March 16, 1984 Tape 175 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: What action has the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in this Province taken to help those people who owns small businesses stay in business? Has he considered dropping some of tte high taxes that consumers have to pay in that area? Because one of the .reasons they are going to Quebec, to Ferment is because the products are much cheaper and the taxes on them are much lower. Has the minister considered reducing the taxes in those areas where over-the- border sales are very dominant? Naturally it is affecting the business in the community. MR.

NEAR Y: And eliminates the temptation to smuggle. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINs:· Mr. Speaker, we certainly are aware of the problem there. Over the last year at least we have had communications and representations from various groups there, business groups, Chambers of Commerce, municipalities and so on pointing out the problem. What we have done,we have studied the content of their remarks, we have met with them when they have come to St. John's, we sat down with them, we talked it over, we have looked at how the matters are dealt with in other jurisdictions.

We discussed it with them~ they also, of course, saw our side of it. We put forward our view of matters. And we assured them that we were sensitive to their needs, that we appreciated the problem,that we would do everything in our power to grapple with it. And I can say this, the meetings were amicable • I think both sides went away, with a deeper appreaiation - -- of each other's view point. As I said, all I could say at that time was that we would certainly give the problem our best shot. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. 459

·~ March 16, 1984 Tape 175 PK - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with

Section 37 of The Newfoundland Medical Care Commission Act I wish to table the report for t~e year ending March 31, 1983. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Advisory Council I wish to table their annual report, I have numerous copies,for the year 1982-1983. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, a couple of days ago the han. gentleman for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) asked me a question with respect to the Atlantic Lottery outlets and the possibility of sale of other than Atlantic Lottery Products. All I can say at the present time is that Atlantic Lata, of course, is conducted by Atlantic Lottery Corporation, a Crown Corporation of which the four Atlantic Provinces,Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick , Prince Edward Island are members, and they have an agreement contract with the outlets, people in private 'business who sell their product,an agreement that they will not sell a product of a lottery from another organization.

There is no evidence that this agreement is in breach of tt _e Combines Investigation Act. There is another aspect of it as well. The other aspect of it is: It will be recalled that some years ago,during the Conservative Government I believe in Ottawa,there was a federal/provincialagreement made whereby the federal government would not enter into the lottery business, in other words,in competition with the provinces 1 or would al~ow 460

I March 16, 1984 Tape 175 PK - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the provinces to do so, and in consideration of that that an amount was agreed that the federal government would receive back from the Atlantic Lottery Corporation; the federal government receives back $32 million a year, $8 million per quarter, that is from the entire corporation. And there would appear to be an attempt now by the federal government to re-enter into that field,in breach of that agreement.

Now,there is to be a meeting next week of the ten provinces to discuss that initiative which is viewed at least by this Province and perhaps by others,as a breach of the ag~eement entered into. So I think probably after next week there would be additional information on it. I would point out ~ I am re~lying because the hon. gentleman asked me the question. Strictly speaking 1 this lottery pursuant to an intergovernmental agreement is administered by the Department of Finance. I get my information from officials in Finance. So no doubt the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Colli ns)- I do not mind doing it, - but he would have it firsthand, and I suppose it is always good to get information straight from the horse's mouth not t~at the han. gentleman in anyway resembles I - a horse. ORDERS OF THE DAY . MR. SPEAKER(Russel l} : Order 1, Address in Reply. The debate was adjourned the last day by the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). MR. OTTENHEI MER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker~ I only have,I think,about eleven or twelve minutes left, and there are four points that I would wish to make. I am sorry the hon. gentleman for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) is not here because they refer to matters alleged to by him, but anyway I am sure they will come as no surprise. It will be recalled that the han. 461

March 16, 1984 Tape 175 PK - 4 MR. OTTENHEIMER: gentleman in his letter of resignation to the Premier stated that Dr. Geoffery Marston who had been involved in the preparation of the Province's offshore legal position for ten years,approximately, had been frozen out. And at that time I replied and indeed quoted the exact words of Dr. Marston which were totally inconsistent with the hon. gentleman's allegation that Dr. Marston had been frozen out. And I will just read the most relevant part of it which is certainly totally inconsistent with the allegation of the hon. member from Bell Island (Mr. Neary). MR.

OTTENHEIMER: These are the words of Dr. Marston,given on the day that the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) made the allegation ,and I am quoting him word for word. "Bearing in mind that the responsibility for the final presentation of written and oral argument to the court rests -and has always rested with the Newfoundland Government in collaboration with· Newfoundland counsel. 'I was given the fullest opportunity of participating in the preparation of the case as befitted my capacity as a research consultant and in making views known.

In particular,Newfoundland counsel came to visit me for several days in Cambridge,in early June 1982. I spent the first two weeks of August 1982 in Newfoundland assisting in Newfoundland's factum in reply,and I was further consulted by Newfoundland counsel when I was in Ottawa in October 1982l' and it goes on and on. And there is no need to read the entirety of it, 'but it is evident and obvious that the allegation that Dr. Marston was frozen out is totally without foundation. The hon. member for Mount Scio when he spoke in this debate two or three days ago,alleged that Dr.

Marston never saw the last presentation that was prepared and by 462

March 16,1984 Tape No. 17 6 ah-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: that he was referring to the factum filed with the Newfoundland Court of Appeal. The factum was filed on June 15th and let me show how without foundation that allegation is. And here is Dr. Marston again; "In particular,Newfoundland counsel came to visit me for several days in Cambridge in early June 1982." And that is when Mr. Colin Irving Q.C. associate or counsel went to Cambridge and spent several days conferring with Dr. Marston, and another research consultant, a Dr.

Gilmore,came down from Edinburgh and that is what they were meeting on, the final draft of the province's factum. So the allegation that Dr. Marston was not involved in the last presentation that was prepared is also without foundation. The third allegation by the hon. gentleman states that the matter was prematurely referred to the Newfoundland Court of Appeal and there"all I can do is quote the hon. gentleman himself.

The han gentleman answered his own allegation in a previous incarnation.On May 19,1982 in this House of Assembly the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.Hodder) was arguing against or saying something against reference of the matter to the Newfoundland Court of Appeal and Hansard shows, "Mr. Hodder: Why did it go to court?" And the answer is given by the hon. member himself. It reads, "Mr. Barry; :Because, Mr. Speaker, we were put to the situation where we had no choice .

The federal governmet with its arrogance, with its refusal to respond, with the fact that it was pushing another case in the federal court of Canada, the SIU case, put this Province in a situation where it had no choice but to refer the matter to the Supreme Court of Newfoundland on appeal."So while a 463

March 16,1984 Tape No. 176 ah-2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: few days ago the hon. gentleman alleges that it was prematurely referred to the Newfoundland Court of Appeal, on May 19, 1982 ·he shows why it had to be done. And he refers to the arrogance of the Liberal government in reply to one of his now colleagues , Mr. Hodder, and it is here in black and white in the Hansard transcript. When Mr. Hodder says, "Why did it go to court?", the answer shows Mr. Barry saying, "Because, Mr. Speaker, we were put to the situation where we had no choice. The federal government with its arrogance, etc. ".

So the third allegation which the hon. gentleman made he has answered it himself,and it certainly shows a great lack of any consistency in the hon. gentleman's views. And the fourth matter on which I would like to make a brief comment is, of course,the hon. gentleman's allegation of the :omission of a very important case and how this had an adverse affect,etc. on the outcome of the case. Now this allegation can only be related to two things,either Newfo~ndland counsel did not know about this case, the Trendtex case he is referring to,or they did not understand it. There are only two possibilities .

When he says the case was mismanaged because they did not refer that case to the court,it must mean that the hon.member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is alleging that either Newfoundland counsel did not know about the case or they did not understand it. Now it is a bit much to believe that Mr. James Green, Colin Irving, with Margaret Cameron , as she was then who were working on the case did not know about the case. Obviously they knew about the case 464

March 16,1 984 Tape No. 176 ah -3 MR . OTTENHEU.1ER : and th e hon. mem be r f or Mount Scio (Mr.Barry) knew that they knew about the case,because the case was referred to in a compilation of legal materials, called a survey of legal materials done up by the government a few years before and added to and altered and it was distributed when the hon ,~ member was in the Cabinet and he has a copy of that compilation of legal materials. So the han. member knew that Newfo .undland counsel knew. So the only other .possibility is that Newfoundland counsel did not unde .rstand it, that Mr. James Green, or that Mr.

Colin Irving, or that Miss Margaret Cameron or other people a.ssociated with him did net understand it, did not see the importance, did not see the relevance.Ahd really what can motivate that? It can only be an attitude that there is only one person in Newfoundland to give the political direction for the offshore case, only one pE!rson and that was the hon. Cjent:leman himself, or in the alternative 1there is only one person who could properly act as lead counsel for Newfoundland and that was the hon. gentleman himself. They are the only two possible

interpretations 465

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 177 MJ - 1 MR. OTTENHEI~~R: open to it, either the hon. gentleman himself was the only one in Newfoundland who was capable of giving the . political direction,or else the hon. gentleman ·''as the only one in Newfoundland and probably the onlv one in Canada who was capable of acting as lead counsel. So, Mr. Speaker, hon. members can make up their own minds if they are willing to accept that rather preposterous hypothesis but that is what it comes to. So on those four issues: NuMber one, the allegation that Dr. Marston was frozen outj '''e h"l.ve in Dr.

Marston's own words evidence to the contrary. NQ~er two, that Dr. Marston never saw the last presentation that was prepared: 'we have from Dr. Marston's own words confirmation of the fact that Newfoundland.counsel were in Cambridge in early June working with him on what in fact was the factum to be filed in the Court of Appeal. The allegation that it was prematurely referred to the Court of Appeal,the han. member himself has refuted and has shown the inadequacy and emptiness of that allegation when he spoke to this House in replying to Mr.

Hodder,the Liberal member for Port au Port,and that can be found in Hansard, Hay 19, 1982. And the allegation about onission o-F "'· 'rerv i"'lnort;:mt case, obviouslv fran that a.lle<:Tation either counsel die". not l~no•·7 a~out the case, or if thev kne", thev 0.ic'l. not unr'l.erstanct. It is obvious that they knew. The han. member knows they knew because the case was discussed and referred to in a compilation of legal material made available to the han. gentleman himself when he was in the Cabinet.

So the other part of it 1 that counsel could not understand ~vhat was in the case, then the absurd conclusion you come ~o there is that onlv the han. gentleman was capable of being the lead counsel. Of everybody in Newfoundland and everybody in Canada only the han. gentleman was capable of doing it, ':that Hr. James Greene, 466

March 16 , 19 84 Tape No. 17 7 MJ - 2 MR. OT'T'E NHEH'!ER: !1.essrs . r.ollins and Irvin <:l', r.•iss !'arqaret Ca":teron and others, none of then indi viduall" ' or in any combination could have had the intelligence and the insight of that one gentleman himself. Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that the hon. gentleman is suffering from a delusion of self-inflicted infallibility, the delusion of infallibility. smm HON • l<l.EMBERS: Hear I hear! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: And if hon. gentlemen want to suscribe to that that is their own business,but I do not think there are many on this side who suffer from the delusion of the self-conferred infallibility of the hon. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WA RREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas}: Order, please! Before recognizing the member,I would like to welcome to the gallery children fro~ Pleasantville school •·!i th their teachers, Mr. !:Ter1r'!erson, ~1iss Delaney, Mrs. :1kinner ann _ !1r. Old ford. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SP EAK ER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, you know,once the Supreme Court has made a decision, and we have lost the case in the Supreme Court on the offshore, then the only thing the Minister of Justice (~~. Ottenheimer) can do is try to get his Premier to be a reasonable man and the minister responsible to be reasonable and go and sit down with the federal officials, the federal ministers and try to get a deal for Ne~>~foundland before 'ITe finally go down the drain. Now, Hr. Speaker, in response to the Throne Speech,I can see one only positive comment made there and that was on the first page when the Lieutenant- 467

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 177 MJ - 3 MR. WARREN: Governor when reading the Throne Speech said that the Pope was corning to Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is 468

March 16, 1984 Tape 178 EC - 1 r!P.. T'LI\PJ'~~T : positive, lt is positive for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and will be a very historical day for the Province. Otherwise, the Throne Speech is just a waste of the Lieutenant-Governor's time to come in and read twelve or fifteen pages of pure nonsense! Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, on the C.B.C. national news, there was a gentleman by the name of Mr. Gilchrist, who announced his resignation from the House of Commons. He announced his resignation because he was convicted under the Income Tax Act and, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that that hoh. gentleman, as should any poli­ tician in that position, made the proper move. r~R. DOYLB: Do you think that any politician convicted of tax evasion should resign? MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, anybody who is convicted should do the same thing. I would also like to say in response to what the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has just said in response to questions I asked earlier, if there is any hen. member in this House on either side who owes taxes to the provincial government, he should also resign.

Can every member in this House honestly get up and say that they do not owe any taxes to the provincial government? Can anybody say it? No, Mr. Speaker. There are members, most likely, Mr. Speaker, who have businesses outside of this House and they owe taxes to this government, and why do they not pay them? Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has tax officials in the Department of Finance going throughout the Province to the small retailers and saying, 'If you do not pay your taxes, we will take your licence from you.' 469

March 16, 1984 Tape 178 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: This has happened in the ~ast month and a half. They are going throughout the Province to the small retailers and saying, 'We are giving you ten, fifteen, twenty or twenty-five days to pay the taxes you owe or we are going to take your licence from you.' Now, Mr. Speaker, have they gone to members of the house of Assembly or special assistants to the ministers who have gone bankrupt four or five times and have left this government as much as $47,000 in the red? Have they gone to those people? No, Mr. Speaker.

What they are doing is they are picking on the individual,small businessmen in this Province. MR. CARTER: What about John Doyle? MR. WARREN: I am not talking about John Doyle. You go after John Doyle. You may own a savoury farm on Mount Scio but I am not tal~g about your savoury farm _ either. MR. DOYLE: l·~at about those t'i~O M." 0 s? MR. WARREN: That is up to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). Why does he not go after them? I am saying those · \·tho owe provincial sales tax. The Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle) should know, too.

And he should know that there are people in public life in this Province who do owe sales tax to this government. Why do they not pay? And if they do not pay, why do they pot resign? HR. DOYLF.: '!';1ose !1?::; should resign. MR. WARREN: I am talking about members in this House of Assembly, fifty-two of us. l!~. TUL~{! Are you saying that there is somebody here who owes s.s.a. to the Province? MR. WARREN: should resign. MR. NEARY: . I am saying, if they do they Somebodv in this House. 470

March 16, 1984 Tape 178 EC - 3 MR. WARREN: No"'·' Mr. Speaker, another very important matter:. Last week the Premier, in responding to the Throne Speech -I wi::l read from Hansard on ~~nday. He said, 'The ~~nister o~ Social Services (Mr. Hickey) - MR. CARTER: On a point of order, ~tr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. HcNicholas): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: The hon. gentleman is about to read something from Hansard. Now, that again, will become part of Hansard, so we have a Hansard of a Hansard of a Hansard. This is absurd! It should not be allowed. SOME HON .

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: To that point of order, ~x. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 471

March . 16, 1984 Tape No. 179 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : ~t'o th~t r:cL"lt of order. the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is just the hon. gentleman being his usual ridiculous anc. sill ", childish self. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I must rule there is no point of order. The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: !tr. Speaker, it may have hurt the hon. member for St. John's North (~. Carter), aowever, the Premier mentioned about the Minister of Social Services (.Mr. Hickey} • He said ' 'The HiniGter of Social !Cervices cot;~ .es under attack from time to tine'.

He saic 1.- T <".TT1. going to tell you something, Mr. speaker , if you lool~ec. c>.t the \_ Social Services ··budget of Newfoundland and Labrador 1 there is no- Minister of Social Services in Canada who h.as done a better job.' Now, Mr. Speaker, what a downright contradiction~ Ee is the uorGt !!inister o£ Soc:Lal Services in all of Canada . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. WARREN: Not only that, Mr. Speaker, remember about a week and a half ago, four social workers in Labrador were fired by his department, four social workers were dismissed. Why? Because they were trying to do a job that was proper. And, Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Social Services 1who just came and sat in his seat , 1s so concerned I about his social workers throughout this Province havin~ to follow the manual that he has set out for them 1 every one of the social workers in this Province should resign today because not one of them follows the manual. It is impossible to follow the manual. MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. Minister of Social Services. 472

March 16, l984 Tape No. 179 SD - 2 MR. HICKEY: The hon. gentleman does not know what he is talking about again. It was not the manual that was violated, it was the law. Does the hoh. gentleman· want to tell us in this House now, and through this House, the people of the Province, that people anywhere in the Province can choose the law they wish to obey and to disobey the laws they do not like? MR. NEARY: You are incompetent. .MR. HICKEY: Let him answer that . MR. WARREN: There is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. .MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member is not out of order.

It is a matter of a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is too bad the Minister of Social Services (~. Hickey) is so upset. I suggested to the Minister of Social Services two and a half years .ago to go down to Davis Inlet and see first-hand the kind of conditions they are living in. And he said: 'I would not go on a joy- ride'. The minister has been on a joyride for the last twenty years in this House. .MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon.

Minister of Social Services. MR. lUCKEY: I am sorry to interrupt again, Mr. Speaker, but I am not going to sit here in the House and let him spew out words which are untrue. I never made any such statement, Mr. Speaker. I am not infallible but I have a very good memory about what I say. I have never referred to going down to Davis Inlet as a joyride. 1'lR • . WARREN: You did so. Read Hansard. MR. HICKEY: As a matter of fact, I can tell the hon. gentleman the last time I was there it was no joyride when we landed in a seaplane. Has the hon. gentleman 473

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 179 so - 3 MR. HICKEY: been up there lately; MR. WARREN: No po~nt of order, Mr. Speaker, a waste of time. MR. H-ICKEY: I' have no magic answers for Davis Inlet and my going there will not solve the problem. MR. SPEAKER ~cNichol'as')_: To that point of order 1 I must rule that there is a difference of opinion between two han. members. Mountains. ~4 WARREN·: The han. member for Tornga t Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise the han •. minister. if he does not know 1 I lived there for two years and I know· what the conditions are like..

I' did not have ~e plush living conditions that the minister has been used to either, :Oy the way·~ Now r Mr. Speaker, those four se>cial workers have been dism±.l;l'sed by· the minister ''s department because they. are not fol.lowing what the minister wanted them to do. Mr •. Speaker, the peciple there who are living with individuals. are not paying rentf they are not paying 474

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 180 NM - l MR. WARREN: board and lodging, it is just a traditionaj_ way of life. It was only about two months ago ,when the last session of the House of Assembly was meeting 1that the Premier brought a resolution into this House asking for support for the aboriginal people. And what did the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey} do? Go and take the rug out from under their feet. That is what you would call support for the aboriginal people, Mr. Speaker.

And this why four social workers were fired, were dismissed because the minister did not like what they were doing because they were doing justice to the people. MR. HICKEY: MR. WARREN: Sir, and resian. MR. TO.JHN: MR. WARREN: Rave on. You should be ashamed of yourself, You do not know what you are talking cu.:out,Garf. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin} just referred to me by my first name, I would suggest that he would withdraw it. You call a member by his district and not by his name. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas}: Order, please! MR. WARREN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, all along the Premier was hoping for the offshore to be settled by a change of government in Ottawa. A newspaper clipping, yesterday's paper, The Toronto Globe and Mail I believe it is, 1 Division in the Ranks. 1 There is no division in the Li~eral ranks. MR. DOYLE: That is Michael Harris , is it? MR. WARREN: No, it is not Michael Harris either, it is Geof£rey Simpson, whoever Geoffrey Simpson is. It is not Michael Harris. 'Division in the Ranks,l division in the Co~servative ranks, Mr . Speaker, and what 475

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 180 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: does it say about Newfoundland? What does it say about Newfoundland? ''Another crack threatens to separate Mr. Mulrooney from the Newfoundland Conservatives. The issue is the control of the offshore resources which the Supreme Court recently and unanimously ruled belonged to Ottawa. '1Now the Newfoundland trouble is complicated by Mr. Mulrooney's frosty, personal relation with Premier Brian Peckford. It is compounded by Tory Finance Minister John Crosbie:' MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A point of order, the han.

Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Is the han. gentleman going to table what he is reading from? MR. WARREN: Definitely. MR. HICKEY: when hE! starts. MR. STAGG: anyway. MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. MR. WARREN: Well,then he should say so It is against standing orders The hon. member for Torngat No problem, Mr. Speaker. I will table it. Sure. In fact, Mr. Speaker, for the minister's eyes I have it underlined for him. I will table it and plus I have it underlined clearly. so he can read it more And says, "It is compounded by Tory Finance critic John Crosbie's passionate support for provincial control. Unless Mr.

Mulrooney embraces provincial contra!'- MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. 476

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 180 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: It has just come to my attention that what the hon. gentleman is reading from is a newspaper article. Your Honour, some point last session I attempted to read from a newspaper article, I was ruled out of order, I was abruptly stopped by the Speaker, and rightly so under the rules, I had forgotten it, and I could not continue and I would refer the matter to the House Leader, whom I am sure can enlighten all of us on the matter. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: the Council. Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the President of MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister is q~ite correct. I quote to the House page 117 of Beauchesne which reads and I quote - MR. BAIRD: What page? MR. MARSHALL: Page 117, paragraph 332, "On March 17, 1933, a Member quoting a newspaper in debate was ruled out of order by the Deputy Speaker who said: 'The rule is quote clear, that the quoting of a newspaper, an author or a book which reflects upon debate before the House, either directly or indirectly is entirely out of or~ r, because Membe~s are here to give their own opinions, " Mr.

Speaker, " ;:,.nd not to quote the opinions of others ..•. [Members] may quote an

article or a book stating facts, but a commentary on any proceeding or any discussion in the House, with the object of swinging an opinion to one side or the other, is out of order." 477

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 180 NM - 4 MR. MARSHALL: Now what the hon. gentleman is doing, he is reading from an opinion from the Mainland press, reading, Mr. Speaker. We are not interested in the opinion of the Mainland press in this House of Assembly. What we are interested in primarily, Mr. Speaker, is the opinion of the hon. member there opposite and his caucus and the other people who purport to represent Newfoundlanc;i in this very serious matt.er. So the fact of the thing is, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is out of order. He cannot quote a newspaper

article for the purpose of proffering his opinion. I would suggest he give his opinion if he has one or,if indeed, Mr. Speaker, he is capable of formulating one. MR. SPEAKER (McNichola .s}: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just spoke cari get up on his high horse, he can be as indignant as he wants and he can wave his finger all he w~nts at the speaker and at this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, but the fact of the matter is that my hon. colleagQe is in order. 478

March 16,1984 Tape No. 181 MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt about the arrogance of this administration and about how they are ranidly turning thenselves · into a full-fledged dictatorship. They would like to muzzle the Opposition, they would like to stop us from hard debate. Mr. Speaker,

section 332,on page 117 goes on to say , "Members may quote an

article or a book stating facts." Stating facts, Mr. Speaker. What my hon. colleague is doing is quoting from an

article stating facts. Mr. Speaker, since when in this House did it become improper and against the rules to quote from a newspaper? Since when? Since when did it become improper or against the rules in any House in the free world? It is silly. The point of order is silly and it just goes to prove my han. colleague is getting to members there opposite. My hon. colleague, can, if he wants to, quote from the bible, Mr. Spea~er~ !-Ie is in the Throne Speech, wide-ranging debate,and he is quite in order, Mr. Speaker, and all they are trying to do is use up his time. · MR.MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker. ah-1 MR.SPEAKER(Dr.McNicholas): To that point of order. The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I rose to assist the point of order taken by the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey). _you can object sometimes or you may not object.Ifthe hon. Minister of Social Services wishes to maintain the objection he certainly can,but as far as I am concerned,the way the

article is written it redoun1.s to the henefi t of one ne~·Jfoundlander anyway 1 because it shows one UePfounC.lanc"Ce:r. un in t~e 479

March 16,1984 Tape No. 181 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: House of Commons in Ottawa who is standing u9 for his Province and supporting his Province in those very critical hours. I am quite delighted because it puts the han. gentleman and his party to shame,and the five quizlings who are up on the government side of the House. So , I mean , it does not really matter,but I just got up to reinforce what the han. gentleman says.

The government really does not care all that much if the hon. gentleman has not got any opinions of his own and wants to read opinions from newspapers, particularly one like this which shows how strongly one of the rnem:bers fro!':'. ~re\·JfoundlanCI. is supporting Newfoundland's position. MR.SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas): To that point of order. It is clear to me from reading page 117 of Beauchesne, reference 332,that quoting a newspaper

article is out of order 1 so I must rule the han. member out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: On a 90int of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: When the hon. Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, was summing up the last time he got on his feet there, in a very sarcastic way, his typical nasty way, he referred to the Opposition as quizlings and I believe if Your Honour will check the list of unparliamentary remarks Your Honour will discover that that is completely out of order and if allowed to stay on the record will only lower the decorum of this House. 1'1r.

Speaker, we have '3een all ~--!eek hm·J the government members have been taking the House on their backs. ~hat must not be allowed to stand 480

., March 16,1984 Tape No. 181 ah-3 MR.NEARY: on the record , Mr.Speaker, it is out of order,and the hon. gentleman should be directed to retract and apologize to the House for such unparliamentary remarks. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas): To that point of order. The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I did not call the hon. gentlemen there opposite qliizlings I was referring to the five representatives in the House of Commons in Ottawa who sit on the government side of the House. MR.NEARY: It is i.m:narlia!"!entary. You cannot use it.

MR.MARSHALL: No relationship, Mr.Speaker, at all to members of this House. I said it before and I will say it over and over again, that people who represent a political party rather than the interests of their own Province deserve a discription such as it. I did not refer to the hon. gentleman as such ' Hhat I may think of the hon. gentleman is something else though. MR.SPEAKER: To that point of order I will check Hansard and rule at a later date. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshalll has done a relatively gooa job ·-of tryiii.CT to cut ny ti!!' _e. ~m-rever, 'I am !3orry that I am cutting to t:~e quicl:, but I believe this is ~·7here 481

', March 16,1984 Tape No. 181 ah-4 MR.WARREN: we were SU!'pcsed to sho'iT this government that they are going in the wrong direction. The Premier did mention one thinq in the Throne Speech that is 482

March 16, 1984 Tape 182 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: worth noting and that is the bravery award. I would strongly suggest, by the way the minister spoke in the last five or six minutes on a point of order; that he be the first recipient of the bravery award. n."R.. TOBIN: r·Jhat, gravy a~--'ard? MB. WARREN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, recently there were three houses in Nain that were re9ossessed by this government , and instead of being turned over to other social assistance reci)")ients in the community to rent, or to the .Social Services Department to rent f.or•·social assistance recipients, ~J e:·1foundland and Labrador Housin'J chartered an aircraft "1-lhich cost the!1 $1 !500 _. and 1·rent in 1vi _th a hammer and a bag of nails and nailed up the doors on the three houses.~nstead ·of contacting the Department of Social Services and the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) and saying,~ook,we have three houses vacant in here, why can you !'<""'~ '..13e them, instead of that they S!.Jent bet"l-!een $1,500 . and: _$2, 000 and went to Nain and barred up the three houses, and as of last week they still were not in use. MR. HICKEY: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A point of order the hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. You know if the hon. gentleman is going to continue to deceive the House I have no choice but to rise to correct hiM.

He is talking again and blaming everything on the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and the provincial government when in fact he knows, so he is deliberately misleading this House, Mr. Speaker, h~ knows, he is well aware - MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Take it back and apologize. I have to inform the hon. minister that it is not permissible for the hon. minister to 483

March 16, 1984 Tape 182 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): say that an hon. member is deliberately misleading the House, and I would ask him to withdraw that. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I apologize and I withdraw that remark. I will say that the hon. gentleman must have had a lapse of memory. In other words,he must have forgotten what he knew last month when he was informed by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing,when he was informed by my department people that the three houses in question were barred up because they needed repairs. MR. WARREN: Not true! Not true! MR.

HICKEY: They were foreclosed upon by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. Mr. Speaker, those houses are controlled by a federal/provincial committee made up of people from Canada Mortg:;~.ge and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. Thl.s P.rovince has a 25 per cent stake in that operation, the federal government has 75. So it is the federal people who are at fault moreso than we. MR. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. To that point of order, the han. Mr.

Speaker, I believe Your Honour is aware that that is not a point of order, it is merely a difference of opinion between two hen. gentlemen. As a matter of fact 1 the houses that were referred to were idle for three months, they were ready to be occupied the next day. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The taxpayers were paying for heat and lights and fuel for these houses, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is negligent in his responsibility. And ~y the way, Mr. Speaker, after the hon. gentleman apologized to my 484

March 16, 1984 Tape 182 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: colleague for making unparliamentary remarks he went on to do through the back door \>That he could not do through the front door. PR. TULI<: He should apologize again. MR. NEARY: He should apologize again~ If the Chair will just check Hansard he will discover that the hon. gentleman had to get his licks in, his little darts in after being forced by the Chair to withdraw unparliamentary remarks. So there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker, ~t is just merely an attempt on the part of the hon. gentleman to use up the time of my colleague who is making an excellent speech.

MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Mr. Speaker, a point of order. Order, please! A point of order, the han. Minister of social Assistance. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to ~·!illingly a!_Jologize for the bon. gentleMan losin<]' his !'le~ory. The only conclusion I can draw is that he does not understand when he is told things. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order I rule that there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The bon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I know, Mr. Speaker, my time is getting short, however, I wish to refer again to those three houses in Nain • .

I only wish that Mrs. Rowe and her concerned group who have taken the minister to task in st. John's for the conditions of the St. John's housing, I only wish that Mrs. Rowe and her group would go to Nain and see the conditions that people have to live in,then the minister would realize 485

March 16, 1984 Tape 183 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: the minister ~vould realize that there cannot be any discrimination. The minister is doing everything he can for social assistance recipients in St. John's, why can he not do the same for people in Labrador? ~1R. NEARY: That is why he fired four social workers? MR. WARREN: Why does he fire four social workers? Why are three houses left unoccupied? They are just not doing anything. Mr. Speaker, he fired four workers and left three modern houses unoccupied for over three months. This is the concern that the minister has for Labrador.

Some social workers stand up for justice and the minister says, 'It is not justice. I am going to fire you, get rid of you.' Mr. Speaker, this minister should have more respect for human beings, especially for human beings North of St. Anthony, which the minister rarely ever sees. I'ffi.. HICKEY: Special treatment for your district MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Native people in this Province under the Terms of Union deserve special treatment. If the minister does not know that he should look at the Terms of Union of this Province when it joined Canada.

If he will read the Terms of Union he will find out that the Native people came under the Terms of Union and they needed special attention. MR. HICKEY: What kind? MR. WARREN: Go and do your own work, which you cannot do. You have not done it in the past. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: The minister is incompetent. MR. WARREN: The minister is very incompetent. 486

March 16, 1984 Tape 183 EC - 2 MR. tvARREN: I have so much to talk about, Mr. Speaker, and I know I only have three or four minutes left; however, if hon. members will grant leave, I will carry on. In this entire Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, some nineteen pages, there is one sentence about Labrador, the vast territory of Labrador! And what is that one sentence? That one sentence concerns what the government will get out of Labrador. What will the government get out o£ Labrador? MR. NEARY: The only reference. MR.

WARREN: The only reference in the Throne Speech is what they will get out, not one reference to what they will put in. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what you call a government that is concerned. MR. NEARY: Concerned, alright! Concerned about their 'planes they fly around in. MR. WINDSOR: What 'planes? MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: morning. MR. WINDSOR: MR. NEARY: has been in it at all - The LFY. The picture is in the paper this How many times have I been in it? I do not think the han. gentleman Thank you. MR.

NEARY: - but ask his colleague, the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) how often she has been in it~ or .~ ~ memb~r ~ _for Humber East (Mr. House) and Humber West (Mr. Baird) and Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow), ask them how often they have been in it. SO~ffi HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! I wish to remind all hon. members of the House that the han. the member for 487

March 16, 1984 Tape 183 EC - 3 MR . SPEAKER {Aylward) : Torngat t-tountains (Mr . ~varren) , while speaking, has the .right to be heard in silence . Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN: The bon. the member for Thank you, M.r . Speaker. N0\'1, Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest concerns that I have - and I only have a couple of minutes to clue up - is ou.r local preference policy .

I agree that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians should be given the first opportunity for jobs if they are qualified but I beg this government not to continue doing what they have been doing for the last four o.r five years, giving jobs to Newfoundlanders and L.abradorians that they are not qualified to do , M.r. Speaker. That is happening, it is causing static in the communities and it is resulting in accidents. Because through the local preference policy that companies have to £ollow, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians a.re being given jobs that they are not quali ­ fied to do .

If we cannot give ~~em the proper training, fo.r God's sake, do not put them in positions where they will cause _injury and damage to other people: 488

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 184 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: talking about. And han. members know what I am In due course, when the commission is finished, it will show that because of this government's policy we have accidents. Let us hope, Mr. Speaker, that the one thing government will listen to is 'Do not put boys in men's places'. MR. HICKEY: You are not in favour of it? MR. WARREN: I am not in favour of anybody trying to do a job he is not capable of . MR. NEARY: Who is going to be in charge of the new super company, a Newfoundlander? Where is your local preference there? MR . TOBIN: Do not talk about that. MR.

NEARY: Oh, I see, the Government of Canada is going to have the say about it. Did they have something to say about the provincial appointees? MR. SPEAKER (Ayl ward ) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: Another concern, Mr. Speaker , that I have is the future of the International Grenfell Association in Labrador. The future of the International Grenfell Association in Labrador or in Northern Newfoundland I am very much concerned about it. In fact, Dr. Taite a famous doctor, a well-known doctor , who has been in Labrador for quite a while, has decided to resign and go back to Australia.

He has been practically forced out, Mr. Speaker, he has been practically forced out. And I have to say one thing in defense of the people in Port Saunders and that is they are objecting to the idea of the IGA taking over the clinic in Port Saunders. Mr. Speaker, I believe that it is time that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) - I am glad 489

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 184 SD - J... MR. WARREN: that he came around the corner and is going to listen to my last remarks:- the Minister of Health (Mr. House) looked very seriously at having one Department of Health,right !rom Nain to St. John's. I do not think we need the International Grenfell Association any longer. Let us put it all under one umbrella and have one Department of Health, and with that I believe that we may see improvements in the health care in Labrador. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. member for St. John's North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I suppose the only occupation for which no ability whatsoever is necessary is that of being an elected member in the House of Assembly. I do not suppose you have to be able to read or write, you do not have to be literate. MR. NEARY: this morning. MR. CARTER: You must have looked in the mirror You do not even have to be sane, thinking of the han. gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBE ·RS : Oh, oh! MR. CARTER: And yet nothing can disqualify one from membership in this House and certainly even less can disqualify one from being a member of the House of Commons.

You can be convicted of assault, you can diddle your income tax, there is almost nothing you cannot do. Now to get serious, Mr. Speaker, the bigge .st non-event of the month, I think it was this month, was the defection of th.e hon. Leo Barry, the member for Mount Scio, from this side of the House. And it is a pity it went by unnoticed and no one paid much attention to it and there was nothing formally done about it. So a number of the 490

March 16, 1984 Tape Nq. 184 SD - 3 MR. CARTER: members here have taken up a small collection to make a presentation to Mr. Barry 1 if the Page would leave this on his dest. Unfortuna.tley he is not here: .I believe he is in Labrador where he intends to run next time. I do not know which of the members he intends to supplant - prooably Torngat Mountains, is it not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. CARTER: Obviously members are not aware of the law. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward)_: · Leader of the Oppos·ition. MR. NEARY: . A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr.

Speaker r th .e bon. gentleman just sent an envelope to my colleague~s desk who does not happen to be in the House today, He is travelling to Labrador wh .ere he has been invited to speak to a great joint meeting in Labrador West. But, Mr. Speaker, that envelope is laying there, we are all going to be looking at it with suspicion for the next little while,until the House rises at 1:0.0 p.m. Can the han. gentleman assure th.e House that there. is nothing in that envelope that could do any damage to the furniture in this House'? MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Is it savoury that is in the envelope, Mr. Speaker, or is it something that can detonate down there, explode and do damage to the House and to · hon. gentlemen who may be sitting nearby? Can we have some assurance from the hon. gentleman that there is nothing, 491

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 185 HJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of an inflammable nature in that envelope? I believe it is incumbent upon Your Honour to adjour~ the House, and have security come into the House. With the way they feel about my colleague, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), have security come into the House, take the envelope out, call in the RCMP security, open it up, Mr. Speaker, and make sure that there is nothing in it that is of a harmful nature, that will do either damage to the furniture or the House itself or to the people who sit nearby. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that for our own safety we should have that done because, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman did not indicate what is::in the envelope,; ~nowing how devious the hon. gentleman is, Mr. Speaker, I believe Your Honour should send immediately for the security, take the envelope out of the House, have it opened and have the security people tell us what is in that envelope in the event, r-'!.r. Speaker, that they may be out to do some harm to my new-born colleague. MR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. To that point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: There are t1iTO points to that point of order.One is that the hon. gentleman is obviously ignorant of the law. A letter or a communication,properly addressed,legally becomes the property of the person to whom that is addressed once it leaves the hands of the person who surrendered it~ The other thing is, it is not the thirty pieces of silver which I have in my desk which I have attempted on numerous occasions to give to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary).

I had relabeled it~ instead of the han. the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. member for Mount Scio 1but I was and still am holding this for the Leader of the Opposition. By the way,this thirty 492

March 16, 1984 Tap e No. 185 HJ - 2 MR. CARTER: pieces of silver is taken up from all of us. Now there are more than thirty of us here so some had to forego the pleasure of donating. This is not the thirty pieces of silver, it is in_fact a ver y serious gift, a very useful gift that I hope, which I know the hon. gentleman will have many occasions to use it. I hope he takes it in the spirit in which it was sent. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, further to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I am asking Your Honour to have that envelope removed from the desk of my colleague,who is not in his seat, who cannot acknowledge receirt of it. Mr. Speaker, we were not given any assurance by the hon. gentleman that the envelope when it is opened may not explode, may not blow up Mr. Speaker, they did say they took up a collection and they were sending something over to put on the desk. I believe it is improper, Mr. Speaker, to have things put on the desk of hon. members, especially of that nature~ can put down,I suppose, legislation and that sort of thing,But, Mr.

Speaker, we are all very conscious of what is happening in the world today an4 as I say 1the hon. gentleman is capable of doing anything,. Sometimes he does it for a lark, but t ~ hon. gentleman really does not have a sense of humour,! believe that that envelope should be removed from the desk, Mr. Speaker, And if the hon. gentleman wants to send it to my colleague when he is in his seat 1 and my colleague acknowledges and accepts it,that is a different matter,but, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it can be done under the rules well,I do not know if it is against the rules or not- but certainly I do not think it should be done in the absense of my 493

March 16, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: quickly respond. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Tape No. 185 MJ - 3 colleague. Mr. Speaker, if I could just The hon. the President of the Council to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is obviously on his feet on a point of order to try to consume the time of the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) who is going to speak to us in his usual colourful fashion, whatever vein he wishes to speak. It is not of a point of order,but with all due respect I think the hon. gentleman is wasting over time.

When . a member · :gets up and wastes time on a point of order,I think it is fitting that he should be interrupted and told to sit down, let the gentleman get on with his speech and not be wasting his time. The fact of the matter is all disposed of anyway, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is obviously licking his wounds after the keelhauling he got in this House in the past couple of days and that is why he is not here. But if he has got the courage to come back in the House again in a month's time then there is something over there. I am sure the hon. member for St.

John's North will tell us what is in it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, as all members realize in this House of Assembl y there are items placed on people's desks while they are absent, there is no rule that says messages or mail cannot be placed on a person's desk in their absense,so I rule that there is not a point of order. John's North. MR. CARTER: wise decision . The hon. the member for St. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, on a very 494

l1arch 16, 1984 Tape No . 185 l-1J - 4 MR . CARTER: I was trying to make the point that the hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr . Barry) did, I think, notify the Chairman of our caucus that he wanted his desk moved . But~ou kno ~; r doubt still if he is officially a Liberal because there has been no formalities, I think the way is st ill open for him to return to our caucus . SOl-1E HON . MEMBERS : No, no! 495

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 186 NM- 1 SOME HON. MEMBER: No. No. I-1R. MCLENNON: No way! The door is closed. MR. CARTER: Well, I do not like to disagree with my collegues but I would like to point out that no offical oath has been taken by the hon. gentlernan,and that if one becomes a Liberal one surely goes through some formality, one has to kiss the boots of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) or somehow abase oneself. So in the absence of any oath that the hon. gentleman may have sworn, or may not have sworn, I have taken the liberty to write one out which I am going to have to table. SO~ill HON.

MEMBERS: Read it. MR. CARTER: Well, I will have to table it if I read it because it is a written communication. "I," and it is blank, I suppose you would have to put in - MR. STAGG: I, Leo Barry. ~ffi. CARTER: "I, Leo Barry, being of unsound mind do hereby make oath and say!that I will henceforth strive to stifl~ my conscience forever and absolutely and to forget the difference between right and wrong; and that I will stand for no principles whatsoever and will undertake to blackmail and slander whenever necessary or desirable. MR. NEARY: A point of order, ltr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please~ The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. 496

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 186 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Is this Sesame Street we are watching, ~. Speaker? MR. STAGG: There is Big Bird. MR. NEARY: If he put the feathers on he might look like Big Bird. But, Mr. Speaker, in the hon. gentleman's trying to be witty and humourous ,he is using the worst, the lowest kind of unparliamentary language. Does Your Honour realize that? And the Chair is sitting there letting him get away with it. Mr. Speaker, he is questioning the mental health of my hon. colleague. He is using such terms as "slanderous" and "libel", Mr.

Speaker, all unparliamentary 1 and Your Honour is sitting there watching the Big Bird made these statements, Mr. Speaker, instead of trying to maintain decorum-in the House. I believe it is Your Honour's duty to - MR. SIMMS: Do not be such a spoil - sport. MR. NEARY: No, I am not a spoil - sport. I think we have t~~-m~ny serious problems in tnis Province, unemployment and high taxes, and high gasoline rates and high - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Speech, speech! ~ icffi. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not mind the han. gentleman being wit~y, I do not mind banter back and forth, I do not mind humourous interuptions, I do not mind all of that, t-1r. Speaker, but I· am afraid that the han. member is making unparliamentary remarks. 497

March 16, 1984 Tape ~o. 186 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: So, Mr . Speaker, I would submit that the hen. gentleman be directed, if he is going to speak, if he has any contribution to make to this debate,that he be ordered to carry on with the debate and not turn the House into a shambles. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: On that point of order, Mr. Speaker, it arises out of some of the remarks made by the han. gentleman in making his point of order.

He can make whatever point of order he wishes to if he does not want to take it in the vein that the han. gentleman is giving it,but in his point of order he b}:'ought up something that I have to take exception to and draw to the attention of the House that he says Your Honour sits there and allows this to go on,as if it has be _en an imputation on Your Honour and on the Chair. Now th _e fact of the matter is, the rules of this House are such, Mr. Speaker, that it is perfectly proper for any person·to rise on a point of order and raise that point o-f order, 498

March 16, 1984 Tape 187 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: but it is not proper in raising that point of order for the hon. gentleman to cast aspersions of that nature on the Chair .. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And the Chair uses its discretion, if it wishes to,at certain times to interrupt,but it it does not choose to use its discretion it is perfectly ' comptetent for any member of the House to get up on a point of order and it is not right for anybody to get up and cast aspersions of that nature. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Hear, hear! To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order, please! To that point of order the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is nobody casting aspersions. The han. gentleman is waving his little index finger over there again and trying to dictate to the Chair, trying to bully the Chair, and trying to take the House on his back,as he has been doing all week. Mr. Speaker, I just merely ask for the protection of the Chair, that the members of this House be protected from the low, rotten remarks being made.It is not witty. If it were humourous, Mr. Speaker, we would appreciate it.

But I believe it is the duty of the Chair, and if that is casting aspersions on the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I apologize. But I believe it is the duty of the Chair to protect members of this House whether they are in their seats or not. And I am asking Your Honour to direct the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) to carry on in the debate if he intends to debate the issues in this House, and not just make a holy show of himself and try to take the House on his back with the encouragement of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall).

There is no intention on my part, Mr.Speaker, to cast any aspersions on the Chair. But I 499

March 16, 1984 Tape 187 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: believe that the Chair has the duty and responsibility to protect members of this House,whether they are in their seats or not,from that kind of abuse. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! To that point of order,the Chair is well aware of its responsibilities in this matter. I have been listening very closely to the remarks that are being made by the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter), ~~here was one word used,' blackmail; which the Chair does not consider a lot to the debate in this House or to the decorum ,but Beauchesne, pages 110 and 111 "Since 1958 it has been ruled parliamentary to use the following expressions•• and 'blackmail' happened to be one of those expressions. So I cannot find that the han. member used an unparliamentary expression but the Chair is listening very carefully to his remarks. The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: This is only a suggested oath, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) will not want to administer it, I do not know, but I will just finish it very quickly.

Number three,''That I will genuflect at the mere mention of the'name Smallwood and will regularly prostrate myself before the temporary 1 makeshift ,interim leader of the ~pposition soon to be appointed to the Senate, a •• d THAT I will antertain the Liberal habits of indolence, uselessness, sloth and ignorance except when it comes to undermining my colleagues, and THAT I understand this oath to be but a first step on the road to total degradation and Liberalism and that it shall have all the force of the Canada Evidence Act as amended.'- I have to table it , Mr. Speaker, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 500

March 16, 1984 MR. EIODD.ER: Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 187 PI< - 3 On a point of order, Mr. A point of order, the hon . Mr. Speaker, I am well aware that the Throne Speech is wide ranging~ but- MR. TOLK ~ That is what they elect in St.John 's. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR. HODDER: - I would suggest to Your Honou r that what I just saw happen in this House is not relevant in any way, shape or form to government policy , to the plans that the government has for the running of the economy of this Province,or anything else. · I wonder, Mr .

Speaker, why it is that members on the other side 1since this session has started, have continued over and over again to come forward with such tactics. It is demeaning of a goverrment with forty-four members that in the debate on the Throne Speech we have to listen to this kind of stupidity in the Hou se of Assembly. Although the Throne Speech may be wide ranging 501

March 16, 1984 Tape 188 EC - l MR . HODDER: and the members can spea k on a wide variety of subjects, Mr. Speaker, I think that many members who are speaking, and particularly the last member who spoke, in no way can be considered relevant. MR. SPE AK ER (Aylward) : Order, please! To that point of order, the han. member did point out that the debate in the Throne Speech is wide-ranging; therefore, the Chair finds it extremely difficult to judge on a rule of relevancy in such a case. I would have to rule that there is no point of order. North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: .MR. CARTER: The han. the member for St.

John's Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker . All of the members on this side have agreed in discussing the Speech from the Throne that we would concentrate on the of£shore situation, and although we may have other remarks around that, still the main thrust of our debate, if given the time to make the points, would center around the offshore. So let me quickly get into the meat of t~~ debate.

We heard the Premier say that the administration have moved from the very reasonable stance of outright ownership to the stance of not even bothering to discuss ownership, that they have moved from total administration of the offshore to a shared administration, and from a shared administra­ tion to an administration whereby the federal government would be the major decision-makers in such an administra­ tion until such time as Canada becomes self-sufficient in oil and gas and hydrocarbons.

And then we have heard that on the revenue sharing, the administration has been prepared to move, not only from - well, it is a very 502

r March 16, 1984 Ta pe 188 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: reasonable stance that we should get the lion's share, but they have been prepared . to move to a lm'l of 25 per cent once Newfoundland reaches an average level of prosperity with the rest of Canada. Now, my question to the Opposition, and it is a very serious question, is this: How much further would you suggest we move? How much worse of a deal would you want us to accept? In fact, I would suggest that if the Premier tried to move any further along these lines, he would be in trouble with his caucus, he would be in trouble on this side of the House.

And if the members on the other side think that there is a deal that should be accepted, I would like them to let us know what kind of a deal it should be. Presumably, it is something worse, a little further along the road than we have moved, and I cannot imagine us moving any further along the road and not being howled out of office. Because let us face facts, Mr. Speaker, this heaven and this earth must pass away before another opportunity presents itself for us to get control of a major resource. Once this is gone, there will be no other resource left.

The hydro reserves of Labrador have largely been thrown away, and if '-'le throw away our rights to this offshore, then heaven help us, and our descendants will never forgive us! Those are the main points. Now, I do have to take issue with the Deputy Premier, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), who suggests that the Opposition is not doing its job . I do agree that the Opposition are not being very effective but I still believe that strong Opposition is important. Because a strong Opposition, a well­ constituted and informed Opposition, are the protectors 503

. .:.. March 16, 1984 Tape 188 EC - 3 MR . C.~RTER: of the institution of govern - ment, or to abbreviate, p.i .g.s, P-I-G. So , the hon . PIGS and I mea .n this quite seriously, are a necessary part and parcel of the institute of the running of this Bouse. Now, again I \.;auld like to point out that I realize tha t some of the members are not goL ng to be h~re too long. we do have it on reliable authority , 504

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 189 MJ - 1 HR. CARTER: through the grapevine, that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) is soon going to become a senator. MR. NEARY: That is just ~ory propaganda. That is just wishful thinking. HR. CARTER: I guess he is ~.;rhat we would call a legislator in a rush, or to abbreviate, an L-I-A-~, a LIAR. So I guess the hon. LIAR will soon be a senator. MR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is twice now that Your Honour has allowed the member to use two unparliamentary words.

Your Honour just merely has to refer to page 112 and 113 of Beauchesne and I believe, ~tr. Speaker, if we allow this sort of behavior to continue in this House there is going to be ructions. The hon ·. gentlemen are treating the House as if it was a beer garden. They are taking the House on their back. The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) sits there with a sil~y grin on his face, Mr. Speaker, enjoying it,but I believe it is incumbent upon the Chair when these kind of remarks are made to protect members of the House from these kind of remarks.

I can only again appeal to the Chair to protect us from these rude, unparliamentary, low, rotten, unparliamentary remarks that are being made by the hon. gentleman who thinks he is funny, ~1r. Speaker. The hon. gentleman thinks he is funny. In his ignorance and in his simplicity,he thinks he is being funny and smart when in actual fact he is showing how ignorant he is of the rules of this House. So, Mr. Speaker, I can only raise a point of order again. Your Honour heard the remarks the same as I did and I ask for the protection of the Chair again. HR. CARTER: To that point of order, !1r. Speaker. 505

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 189 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER (.ll.yh1ard) : To that point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I very carefully defined my remarks, it was meant as a compliment, a protector of the institution of government,what could be more complimentary? And it is perfectly acceptable to use abbreviations, what about NORAD - I forget what it stands for exactly - North Atlantic Treaty Organization or North Atlantic Defense. It is perfectly acceptable.

It is part of our linguistic tradition,especially if there is a long-winded description of something, rather than repeat the long-winded description every time,we abbreviate and this is part of the language. I cannot help what it sounds like. I was very careful to define it before I used it, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Name him, Mr. Speaker. Name him. To that poi~t of order. The han. the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) had qualified his remarks that he was using abbreviations for other words which he had already used and I will check to see if this could be considered ·, unparliamentary 1 but at present I do not consider the remarks to be unparliamentary because they were being used as abbreviations. MR. NEARY: You cannot say through the back- door what you are not allowed to say through the front door. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! But I will go over these remarks and have it researched and if the ruling is not correct I will correct it as soon as possible. The han. the member for St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: To end off my remarks on a really serious note 1 I will say,for instance 1that the Opposition are suggesting that we should accept anything that the federal 506

Harch 16, 19-84 Tape No . 189 l1J - 3 MR . CARTER: government offers us and if the offer is too low we should negotiate. ~'l e11 1 I will make a serious offer of $1,000 for the Leader of the Opp osition's (Mr. Near

y) house. Now that is a ser ious offer. I will give him $1,000 for clear title to his house and if he will not agree to that I say he is bein g hard -nosed and unwilling to negotiate. Now will the han. member negotiate or will he be like the federal government? MR. NEARY: I will give you a dollar for your savory patch. MR . CARTER: Well,see, the same idea. I do not intend to listen to frivolous stuff. Rut this was a serious offer for his house once it has been repainted and cleaned up and made fit . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! ~~. CARTER: So there it is, Mr . Speaker, I think that put s the whole thing in context. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . CALLAN : Mr. Speaker. 507

March 16,1984 Tape No. 190 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR.CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to have a few words but I do not have anything prepared at all but I think I can go on memory of what has transpired. And I want to be heard in silence, Mr. Speaker, so I will not accept any interruptions from the member for Placentia East (Mr. Patterson) or anybody else who wants to throw them across. So anyway, Mr. Speaker I want to say a few words about the happenings in this legislature during this week which is now ending. I have been here, Mr.

Speaker, for most of the years from 1975 until now,and when I have not been here physically I have kept in touch with what has been happening either as an employee in the Liberal Opposition offices downstairs or whatever. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that this week now ending is a week which should be noted , which will be marked, I think, as probably one of the worst weeks of this legislature's existence, the sort of things that have happened. And I might say, Mr. Speaker, that I have not been exactly pleased with the impartiality of some of the media.

There are members of the media in the pres~ gallery daily who have been here for a long time and some of them, their colours , I think, are showing through. Whether they are doing what they are doing because they are always threatened by the Premier and other members opposite who accuse the CBC , for example, all the ~ime of being unfair and unjust to the administration, just why they are doing it I do not know. But let us take a look, Mr. Speaker, at what happened. On Tuesday it started. And I want to draw an analogy, Mr.

Speaker, of what happened on a previous occasion and, of course, the conclusion that we will come to is 508

March 16,1984 Tape No. 190 ah-2 MR. CALLAN: obvious. On Tuesday/ a man spoke '\o7ho should have been asked to resign on three separate occasions, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) .who was asked by the then Public Accounts Committee Chairman,the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout)/who was a member on this side of the House when ~e was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and not only the Chair~an, but the Public Accounts Committee, Mr. Speaker, made up of a majority of members on the government side, unanimously agreed that the Minister of Fisheries should resign.

Was he asked to resign by the Premier? No. On three separate occasions. Now here is a man who was put up front to belittle and tear down the character of ~he member for Mount Scio (Mr.Barry) 1 who had crossed the House. Now let me then,just by going on memory, let me relay some of the things that he said in his foolish hour-long speech.

He made reference to the member for Mount Scio as representing the Bank of Nova Scotia,and he suggested in the superb way that he can spread innuendo - and he has had .. l<;ts of experience at it and I have seen it, · - he suggested that the member for Mount Scio was in a conflict of interest 1 was wrong because he was representing the Bank of Nova Scotia. And thenf.of course 1 the Minister of Fisheries realized, as he looked up the front benches 1 and as I sat here and looked across, the first person I was was the Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) and he was half blushing.

And when the Minister of Fisheries looked up and realized what he had said,' Oh,'he said, 1now, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with that)because he then realized that he should not have ~entioned that at all because he 509

March 16,1984 Tape No. 190 ah-3 MR.CALLAN: the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) 1 the member for St. John's East 1 also represents a bank, the Bank of . ~ontreal, so therefore he 510

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 191 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: knew then he had made a mistake. What other statements did the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) make where he realized as soon as he said it 1 almost,that, you know, "I should not have said that either because it applies to someone on my side of the House." He spoke to the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) and he asked him, "Why do you not go and get your hair curled?" - referring to the Afro that the member for Mount Scio had a few years ago.

And then the Minister of Fisheries looked up in the benches and then he realized that the former Speaker, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) was also a man who enjoyed getting his hair curled from time to time so he dropped that argument. MR. SIMMS: MR. CALLAN: I told him to drop it. But here was the man, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) 1 who appeared on CBC television and in the other media talking about the insincerity of the member for Mount Scio. I mean 1what worse man could have been chosen to talk about insincerity?

Here is a man, the Minister of Fisheries, who does not even know the meaning of the word "sincerity". He does not even know the meaning of the word. And he talked about the personal attack that was made on him. All the member for Mount Scio accused the Minister of Fisheries of being was an incompetent, an incompetent. And is that a personal attack? Was he talking about the man's wife or children or his actions outside the Legislature? He was talking about his abilities 511

}. March 16, 1984 Tape No. 191 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: as a minister of fisheries. And he got away with it in the media. He got away with it. This man who should have resigned on several occasions - MR. NEARY: Five times. MR. CALLAN: - several occasions, this man who took a government helicopter in Labrador, and these are facts, and with other officials from his department Fent shootinc; Fild Cfal'\e fran a 'helicopter in t!le air, shooting rabbits- these are facts, this is not fiction- .this man who seven or eight years ago challenged me to a fight because I referred to a newspaper

article where the Minister of Transportation, as he was then, took a government helicopter, went out with his· good friend and Tory partner, Bren Howard, 'l'rhom he ~·?as trying to get re-elected in Trinity-Bay de Verde, and went out to Brownsdale, nobody knew why they were there, and I quoted the newspaper clipping to the minister and he went off the deep end, he went into a tirade and crossed the House challenging me because I was pointing out to this Legislature, and to the Minister of Transportation as he was then, the sorts of things that he was doing with taxpayers' money. And he is still doing it, Mr.

Speaker. He is still doinq it. He is still continuing to do it, taking his lackies 'I'Iit!l ;:ii'l. l'mC. he hus Ji:n. f'edcUe a defeated Tory candidate in the district of Bellevue, still working in his department on a contractual basis doing nothing. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) halicooter (In2udible} MR. NEARY: No. No. 512

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 191 NM - 3 MR. CALLAN: Now the member for Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Tobin),who is in his wrong seat, as usual 1 is over there talking to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), and I want silence, Mr. Speaker. I want silence. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, please: MR. SIMMS: The Leader of the Opposition was talking back to him. MR. SPEAKER: Carry on. MR. CALLAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, if that gentleman is going to talk at all he will have his opportunity after I am finished and he should do it from his own seat.

But in his remarks over there to the Leader of the Opposition ~e is talking about what happened in a prior administration. But you see not even the Premier talks about that. The Premier condemns Frank Moores, he was never a good premier. This is what our Premier said about his former boss. But you see two wrongs do not make a right. If something happened twenty years ago before there was any conflict of interest legislation in this Legislature, or before there was any Public Tendering Act in this Le~islature, if things went on is that my fault? AnO. the fact that it went on,does that condone it now?

In other words,is the member for Burin-Placentia West saying that two wrongs make a right? Is he? You see, Mr. Speaker, what happened in this House this week, the decorun of this House went down considerably and it was brought down by a devious plot by the Premier,who was the man who on 513

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 191 NM - 4 MR . CALLAN: more than one occasion stood in his place and lectured everybody about raising the decorum of the House and not using first na,mes, referring to members by their district and all of that sort of garbage, garbage that he does not keep in mind himself 514

March 16, 198 4 Ta pe No. 192 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: ~rhen he sets out on a devious plot, and it was a devious plot. Now let me talk about what happened, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) referred to it, he said: 'Oh, you know, when the member for Baie Verte - rfuite Bay (Mr. Rideout) left the Liberal side of the House a~d came over here, he did it out of principle'. The fact of the matter is unless the member for Baie Verte - White 3ay is a liar, then the Premier must be - one or the other. One of them is lying. Here is what happened.

The member for Baie Verte - White Bay approached the Premier, the Premier said it publicly - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {}icNicholas ) : President of the Council. MR. HARSHALL: A point of order, the hon. You know, the hon. gentleman from the opposite side can get up and call Mr. De Bane a liar, which is done in very bad taste, but he is not a member of the House. But in this House, Mr. Speaker, you cannot call another member of this House a liar. Now the hon. gentleman said, 'Either the Premier is a liar or the member £or Baie Verte- White Bay is a liar'.

Now the hon. gentleman cannot use these words, cannot make these imputations, cannot say indirectly what he cannot say directly. I am sure the hon. gentleman would wish to retract an imputation o£ that nature. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. CALLAN: I retract that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, before the election of 1979, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay approached the Premier to tell him that he wanted to join your party.

Before he had a chance to do so, the Premier called an election, Don Jamieson came back as Liberal leader and the member for Baie Verte - Nhi te Bay decided that it \vould be a mistake to stay with the present Premier, and 515

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 192 SD - 2 MR. CALLAN: so h.e hung on and he ran in Baie Verte - White Bay on a Liberal ticket. The Premier told us, the Premier said publicly that he was approached by the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) before the 1979 election. It was a year or so after that the member crossed the House. So this garbage from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) that he did it on a point of principle and all of this is nonsense.

The member for Baie Verte - White Bay tried to do it before the 1979 election, but when he thought about it1 and tl1ou~h~-that he had a better chance where he was 1 he stayed where he was. ~hen a year later 1 when he thought he would have a better chance of 'going where he- \van ted to, when he ~'~ent. He went, Mr. Speaker, for a simple reason 1 because he was: out for his own self betterment~ principle had nothing to do with it. Now, Mr. Speaker, what happened in this Legislature when Don Jamieson was Leader of the Liberal Party at the time that the member for Baie Verte - White Bay crossed to the other side?

What happened? I was not here. JI1R. CARTER: !'Thy? MR. CALLAN: i was here four or five months later. Do you want me to ans~·~er ~'Ihy that hal")~ened as uell? Anyway,that was just one of three times that the Premier got beatened in the Bellevue district. The only place in the Province where the Premier has been defeated three times is in the district of Bellevue. I was not here 1 but I know because I worked on the fifth floor in the Opposition office, Mr. Speaker, and I know what happened. Statesman as he was 1 the hon.

Don Jamieson said, 'Let the member for Baie Verte - White aay go and take his seat • ·We will not enter into the sort of nonsense of attacking the man and so on'. Now what a difference in the character of two men, Mr. Speaker. Our present Premier deliberately set out on a devious !")lot, and he l")Ut up the 518

March 16, 1984 Tape No. 192 SD - 3 MR. CALLAN: nastiest man on the government side of the House, the man who should have resigned four or five times, and he said, ukay, to the r~inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), you destroyed Bill Rowe,or tried hard to and you carried on your innuendo and your dirt and your filth and you made suggestions across the Chamber to the Leader of the Oppos ·ition, Bill Rowe,' why did you resign? 'why did you go over to France? 1 'and two minutes later talking about drugs · and talking about drugs in Vancouver, 411 suggestions to smear that-man's name.

And the man, Bill Rowe, challenged the Minister of Fisheries to go outside the Legislature and directly say what he was saying through innuendo. And he did not have the guts to do it anymore than th.e Premier had the guts to ask for the Minis ·ter of Fisheries' resignation, when the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (_Mr. Rideout)_, who is now on that side of the House,was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee with a majority of government members· on that same committee who says that he has no choice only to resign. But was it done? No.

And here is th .e man, the Minister of Fisheries, who talks about insincerity. He does· not even know th.e meaning of the word, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, you know, the Premier does a fine selling job ,and unfortunately there are still a large number 1 perhaps · 2a per cent 1 perhaps 30 per cent or 35 l)er cent out there '·rho tTill not chan<Je anY' ·!ay; they are Tories ,they were born Tories and they will die Tories ; just as there are 517

March 16, 1984 Tape 193 PK - l MR. CALLAN: 35 per cent of t'cP. neonle out there who are Liberals born and will die, T.i.l:;erals. 'Jut t.l-J.ere are about 15, perhaps 20 per cent of the population in this Province who are still gullible enough to believe everything that the Premier says. Just let me 0ive an example of the sort of nonsense that the Premier says: He stood up on Monday and he turned ~o the r~inister of i:ocial eervices (Mr. Hickey) and praised him for the jobs he created. And, ~!r.

Speaker, Fhat an insult to the intelligence of Newfoundlanders, what an insult_to the thousands of them • Most Newfoundlanders realize that again this was a devious plot. ~e Minister of Social Services probably was told about it at a Cabinet meeting. 'Now here is what we are going to do,gentlemen, since we cannot get an agreement with the federal government and since we are going deeper and deeper in the hole every day.The federal government pays out UIC.' The same Premier, Mr. Speaker, who stood on many occasions and criticized the federal government for these LIP programmes, LIP, Local Initia~~v~ Programmes.

And again the Premier was insulting ~he ~eo~le's intelligence because llr. Speaker, ~'Jhether it Has a;::J!Jroved by Ottawa or not to :?Ut up a graveyard fence, the initiative c~ .e frol'1 the local people. So the Premier was flying in the face of these local people because it was their local initiative