Manitoba Hansard — 3 July 1959 (Sitting 18, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

L e g i s 1 at iv e Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume ID No. 18 July 3, 1959 lst Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans, Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

INDEX Friday, July 3, 1959 - 2:30 P. M. Page Select Standing Committee, Municipal Aff airs (Mr. Ridley) ........................ 517 Statement, re Portage Fair (Mr. Christianson) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 517 Question, Mr. Guttormson (Mr. Evans) . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . • . • . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . 517 Statements, re Natural Gas, Power Connections (Mr. Carroll). • • . . . . . . . • . • . . . . . . . . 518 . Adjourned Debate, re Pensioners (Mr. Gray): Mr. Cowan. . . • • . • . . . . • . . . • . . . . . . . . . 518 Re Motor Vehicles (Mr.

Paulley), amendment (Mr. McKellar): Mr. Orlikow . . 519 Mr. Hillhouse...................................................... 521 Mr. Carroll, Mr. Hillhouse . . . • . . . . . • . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . 522 Proposed Resolution, re Minimum Wage (Mr. Harris) amendment (Mr. Groves): Mr. Wright • . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . • . . 523 Amendment to Amendment (Mr. Wright): Mr. Hillhouse . . . . • . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . 524 Mr. Lyon, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Roblin .................... 525 Re Deficiency Payments, Mr. Schreyer . . . . • . • • . . . . . • • • . . . . . • . . . . • • . . . . • . . 525 Bill No. 65, re Ste. Agathe Bridge (Mr. Roberts) Second Reading: Mr. Roberts . • . • 528 Committee of Whole House, Supply Education, Statement, Mr.

McLean . . . • . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . • 529 Student Instruction, Directorate of Instruction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . . • . . . . . 529 Alcohol Education . . . . • • . . . . . . • . . . . • . . . • . . . . . . • • . . . • . • • • . . . . . • • • . • . . . . . . 534 Agriculture and Conservation, Statement, Mr. Willis . . . • • . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . 536 Friday, July 3, 1959 - 8:00 P. M. Agriculture and Conservation, Administration.................................... 543

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, July 3rd, 1959 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. MR. M. E. RIDLEY (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs. MR. CLERK: The Select Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs beg leave to present the following as their second report. Your committee has considered Bili No. 49,

An Act to amend the Brandon Charter, and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your com mittee has also considered Bill No. 58,

An Act Respecting the Town of Steinbach; No. 70,

An Act to authorize the Town of Dauphin to make a grant to the Dauphin General Hospital; No. 71,

An Act to authorize the Rural Municipality of Dauphin to make a grant to the Dauphin General Hospital; and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon, that the report be received. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the C. C. F.) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, did I not understand in Committee this morning that there was an amendment in respect to the Brandon Bill? MR. R. O. LISSAMAN (Brandon): With amendment. MR. PAULLEY: With? I'm sorry. Mr.

Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notice -0f Motion. Introduction of Bills. . Orders of the Day. MR. J. A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to extend to all the honourable members an invitation to attend the 87th Annual Agricultural and Industrial Fair opening in Portage on July 6th, Monday. This, I think, is one of the oldest agricultural fairs in Manitoba and one of the largest judging of livestock.

Now on Tuesday and Wednesday, in the afternoon, there is harness racing on the very fine track; the .livestock sale takes place after the judging on Wednesday afternoon; there is a Grandstand Show every evening; there's a ball tournament on Monday afternoon; and I would respectfully suggest, Sir, that this House do adjourn for Wednesday afternoon in order that all the members may be able to corne out and take

part in the festivities and to see the show going on out there. MR. E . . GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

(1) Is it true that the Government has refused permission to a Winnipeg Creamery to sell milk directly to consumers at Falcon Lake? (2) ls it true that the Government's reason for doing so is that it wants to develop Falcon La.1<e retail outlets in a planned and orderly way and does not want competition in the area from out side points? Is it also true that one Winnipeg creamery insists on delivering to consumers and objects to Government interference in free competition in the area? Finally, is it true that the man who runs this creamery is Mr.

William Kardash formerly a Communist member in this Legislature? . . HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member was good enough to give me the written text of his questions some time ago and I want to thank him for his courtesy in that connection. It is true that a let ter was written from the department, in the sense of the first item in this question, ostensibly refusing permission on behalf of the Government. That does not represent government policy.

I did not khow of the existence of this letter before it was drawn to my attention by the honour able member. Since that time I have telephoned the addressee, told him it does not represent Government policy and discussions are continuing with him and with others to develop a policy under which the area of Falcon Beach and other areas can be served in a satisfactory way on a 12 month basis. I have the full co-operation of this addressee and other in trying to develop July 3rd, 1959 Page 517

(Mr. Evans, cont'd.) ...• such a policy. So it1s quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that that does not represent Government policy - the letter was written without my knowledge. The second part of the question, in those circumstances, does not apply. The third part of the question - is it also true that one Winnipeg creamery insists on delivering to consumers? I think the answer to that would be ''yes" insofar as "insists" means trying to establish the right to deliver in that area, and the answer to the fourth part of the question is "yes. " HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities) (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to answer the questions which were raised in the House yesterday. The Honourable Member from St. John's was inquiring as to what companies were distributing natural gas to the various municipalities in the province. Greater Winnipeg, as you know, is being provided with gas by the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company; in Brandon it is the Plains Western Gas and Electric Company; and all the other municipalities which I listed yesterday as receiving gas are being supplied by the Inter-City Gas Company.

The two franchises, one of which has been approved and the other which is under consideration, are with the Inter-City Gas Company as well.

Now with respect to the question asked by the Honourable Member from Selkirk with res pect to the policy of the Manitoba Power Commission for the supply of three phase power, I would like to say that the policy is, for loads in excess of five horsepower, that the servicing is free providing the three phase facilities are in existence adjacent to th e customer's premises or if the revenue to be derived from new load is sufficient to justify the additional capital cost on the part of the Power Commission.

Now if the revenue is not sufficient to justify the capital expenditure, then the customer is asked to make-its contribution towards that capital cost� --Now in loads of between two and five horsepower, these are loads which are normally considered of the size which could be handled easily by single phase facilities, they will be installed on the same conditions as the five hors(;power loads and over providing there is no duplication of single phase facilities.

In other words, if it's a new building that has no single phase connection at the present time then, if it meets the other conditions, it would be supplied at no cost to the customer, but if they already have single phase facilities in existence in the building, then the customer would be asked to share in the capital cost of that addition - that extension. And I would like to say, too, that there has been no change of policy in recent years in this connection. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of _the Honourable Member for Inkster. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre.

MR. J. COWAN (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for St. John's stated that I suggested that the Canadian Welfare Council and the Ontario Welfare Council were in favour of old age pensions of a particular amount. I didn't say that and I didn't intend to sug gest it although I can understand why one might say I made the suggestion.

I said that the two organizations recommended that pensions stay as they are which, to my mind, meant that they would be retained; the Old Age Assistance Pension to be continued on the basis of need and the Old Age Security Pension to provide a minimum universal pension for those 70 years of age and over. It is quite true that the organizations did not recommend any amount nor did they recom mend any increase, and I can understand that at some time it may be desirable to change the amount, in fact, it has been changed already four times.

I would just like to refer again to the recommendations published by the Canadian Welfare Council in their pamphlet entitled "Social Security for Canada." They have a number of recom mendations but these are the two that we are concerned with when we are studying the motion be fore us. The present universal flat-rate pension commencing at age 70 should be retained, and financial assistance should be made available by the provinces to all persons 65 and over who are in need, with federal sharing of benefit costs, and that is exactly the kind of assistance that the Manitoba Government intends to give.

It intends to.help those in need through the Social Al lowances Act and through the provision of more adequate housing for our elderly persons. The_ resolution of the Honourable Member for Inkster provides for an increase in respect of all pensions for elderly persons and blind persons regardless of need.

It would mean in Mani toba an additional cost of $14, OOO, OOO. a year just to increase the present pensions, and in the federal field it would mean an increase of $223, OOO, OOO. because it would mean increased limits in respect of those between 65 and 70, increased age limits - increased income limits rather. Page 518 July 3rd, 1959

(Mr. Cowan, cont'd.) •..• It would mean that there would be more people eligible for old age assistance and it has been estimated that the extra cost in Manitoba would be $18, 520, OOO. a year and the extra cost on the same basis throughout Canada would be $297, 333, OOO. a year. These are very, very large amounts - a great deal of extra money to be paid by the taxpayers of Canada. It would mean an increase in the income tax, in corporation tax and in the sales tax and we all pay some of these taxes.

We pay the corporation tax when we buy goods because the corporation tax is part of the cost of the production for the corporations who are so taxed; and we pay, of course, the sales tax when we buy goods in the stores; and we pay income tax if we earn an income that is taxable, and many of these people who pay these taxes are certainly in much greater need than many of those who are over 65 years of age.

As a matter of fact, only - 20% of those between the ages of 65 and 70 in Canada are in receipt of old age assistance and the figures from Saskatchewan, where they pay a supplementary allowance to thoi:;e in need over 70, indicate that only 30% of those over 70 are in need of supplementary allowance or additional assistance. The Honourable Members of the C. C. F. state that the income tax would collect a great deal of this surplus that would be paid to those who do nof need it, but I submit again that that is not correct.

For a couple who have exemptions of $2, OOO. a year, they must have an income of more than $6, OOO. before any part of their income is taxable even at the rate of 20% and they must have an income in excess of $27, OOO. before any part of their income is taxed at a rate of 50%. Now if it is the policy of the C. C, F., as enunciated by the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks, to help those who need help most, I submit that the members of the C. C.

F. should not be supporting this resolution for in effect they will be taking away in taxes from many people who are in great need - widows, and low income workers and others who buy products, who pay the sales tax, corporation tax and so on through their purchases.- they will be taking away from many people in need and they will be giving it to many people over 65 who have not need. I think that the C. C. F. should send this resolution to Saskatchewan where they have a government in power and if it is such a good resolution I'm sure that that government will adopt it.

It has not seen fit to do so as yet in spite of the wealth that it has in that province from oil and so on. And so, Mr. Speaker, I submit that all members of this House - members from all parties of this House should defeat this resolution if they believe that a government should help those in need - those who need help most, and I submit that all parties of this House should give support to this. government's policy, both in and out of this House, to help those old people who are in need. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the honourable member a question? MR. COWAN: Yes. MR.

GUTTORMSON: You have mentioned that we should endorse the government's pro gram. Would you care to tell us what it is? MR. COWAN: It has been outlined to some extent in the Speech from the Throne and it was submitted to some extent in the Legislature at its last session and it is the government's intention, as has been mentioned already, to bring in a similar Social Allowances Bill. It has been outlined in the Speech from the Throne to provide additional help for elderly persons in need and provide additional help for elderly persons' housing. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. P.

WAGNER (Fisher): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. Party, and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for St. John's has the floor. MR. D. ORLJKOW (st. John1s): Mr. Speaker, in introducing this resolution the Leader of the C. C.

F. proposed in fact that we establish a compulsory automobile insurance plan and that this be operated by the Government of the Province of Manitoba. Now in speaking to the resolution he quoted fairly extensively from the Winnipeg Tribune, a Conservative newspaper, as to the benefits of compulsory insurance. Mr. Speaker, I would like to quote from March 29th, 1958, issue of the Toronto Star Weekly, a very good Liberal newspaper. They have an editorial which they entitle "Make All Carry Auto Insurance." Here is what they say about this question: July 3rd, 1959 Page 519

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) .•.. "Not long ago a court awarded two Sudbury women $49, OOO. damages for an automobile accident in which they were badly injured and their husbands were killed, but the driver of the other car was uninsured and unable to pay so they had to settle for $5, OOO. each from Ontario's Unsatisfied Judgment Fund," which of course is very similar to what could happen here.

They go on further to say: "Now $5, OOO. is not much compensation for the loss of a bread winner, to say nothing of grief, physical suffering, and medical expenses, but the women would have been no better off had the accident happened in any of seven other provinces and even worse off had it happened in Quebec, which has no Unsatisfied Judgment Fund.

Saskatchewan is the only province that has comprehensive, compulsory automobile insurance." They go on further to say, as follows: "While this" - meaning the compulsory scheme we have here - "is gaining acceptance as the best remedy, it has two defects so long as the selling of insurance is left to private companies. One, in democratic theory, a person shouldn't be forced to buy something out of which others make profit. The second defect is practical. Compulsory insurance through private companies does not cover hit-and-run cases, or accidents involving stolen cars.

To cor rect this it is necessary either to have an Unsatisfied Judgment Fund also, or to go in for Govern ment Insurance, which cover all contingencies. Compulsory insurance sold by the government appears to be the most satisfactory on all accounts. Disinterested investigators find that the coverage and rates of the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office are. superior to anything that can be expected from pr ivate companies. " This is what the Liberal Toronto Star had to say, Mr. Chairman.

Now the Honourable Member from Roblin speaking on this question the other day had this to say, and I quote from page 332 of Hansard, "This", and he is talking about the Saskatchewan Government Insurance offices, "very large and expensive publicity program which is sponsored by the Saskatchewan Government and paid for by the Saskatchewan taxpayers." Now, Mr. Speaker, this is completely untrue. The advertising program carried on by the insurance office is paid for by the insurance office and it is paid for, in effect, by the people .who buy insurance from the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office.

Not one cent of that is paid by the Saskatchewan taxpayers .. .• (Interruption) .... Well, it is paid for in their rates, and it shows up in the pro fits or losses which the insurance office may or may not make in the same way that the Manitoba Power Commission, when it was in business, advertised and used the money of its users to pay for the advertising. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Selkirk made probably the most extensive and comprehensive criticism of this resolution, both in this session of the Legislature and in the last session, when he made even a longer speech - and an excellent speech - on this question. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not an expert any more than the Honourable Member for Selkirk, pro bably less of an expert, and Ih ad his speech analyzed by the people in Saskatchewan who are ex perts,. and I want to refer to a few of the things which he said.

He said in his last year's speech, on page 264 of Hansard, "that the accumulated surplus in Saskatchewan under the Automobile Accident Insurance Act Fund was $1,414, OOO." What? MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker on •.... a ..•. question of order. I never made that statement. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, speaking about that·point, it was an error that I made in presenting the resolution last year. MR. ORLIKOW: In any case, this is what Hansard says - I can look it up and check it but I'm under the impression that that's what Hansard reports.

Actually, they had a surplus of $4, 414. at the end of December 31st, 1958. These surpluses, Mr. Speaker, are invested and the earnings from these investments go back into the fund further reducing the cost of insurance for the motorist. The honourable member said in his speech during the last session that the pri vate companies had had very extensive losses in the years 1956 and 157, and while this is true, it is also true that they made substantial profits through their earnings on investments.

In the case of these private companies the investment earnings were retained for the benefit of the shar eholders and the insured motorist received no benefit whatsoever from these, in the esta blishment of the rates. Now, the honourable member in that same speech suggested that the problems for a vic tim proving he was injured in an automobile accident in order to obtain benefits under the Act ·� in Saskatchewan are no diff erent to those he would face in proving a claim against the Unsatisfied .. Page 520 July 3rd, 1959

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) •... Judgment Fund in Manitoba. The existence of an automobile acci dent is obvious in every case except hit-and-run cases which are provided for separately under the Saskatchewan Act. They have handled over a hundred thousand claims since the inception of the Act in Saskatchewan and there is not a single case where they have taken exception to a claim .on the grounds that there was no automobile accident..

In this province the situation is entirely diff erent,· because to perfect a claim under the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund, the claimant must first follow court procedures which, in many cases, incur considerable legal expense and which . also involves considerable time. Now the honourable member spoke last session, and I think this session, about the experi ence in Massachusetts.

Now the Royal Commission on automobile insurance established by the Province of Nova Scotia looked into this question and in their reports they show that compulsory insurance in Massachusetts has not adversely affected the accident rate nor the cost or'insur ance, besides which, of course, in Massachusetts the insurance is provided by private insur ance companies and their compulsory plan has none of the advantages found in the Saskatchewan Government plan. With regard to rate, Mr.

Chairman, of course it is difficult to compare rates but I've already quoted from the Toronto Star Weekly - their statement after their investigation that the rates in Saskatchewan are superior to that provided by private companies. Inasfar as the surcharges in Saskatchewan, it is true that they have surcharges after traff ic violations, but there are no surcharges for minor traff ic violations; and for serious offences such as drunk en driving, coloured licenses are issued to the operator with a premium increase from the nor mal $2. 00 to $10. 00 or $25. 00 depending on the offence.

Here in Manitoba these same operators convicted of various traffic offences would be forced to apply to the Assigned Risk Plan and· pay surcharges of 10 to 30% on the entire premium on their policy. This procedure of surcharging dangerous drivers in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba is the normal procedure in the insurance business and it's certainly justified. Now, Mr. Speaker, other members have suggested that private companies in Saskatchewan can compete with the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Office in the field of automobile insur ance.

This is true in.asfar as their packaged policy is concerned, but it does not apply to the Automobile Accident Insurance Act, with which there is no competition at all. It's true that the private companies are competing and I think that's a good thing because the government being in the business, the people of Saskatchewan can take their choice between the government plan or the private companies' plan and, in effect, you have real competition in the Province of Saskat chewan which, unfortunately, we do not have in this province.

You have slight differences in the rates between the board and non-board companies, but actually you have very little choice and the companies decide what the rates will be. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member from Selkirk didn't like the compulsory feat ure of the Saskatchewan Act. He didn't think it was right to force people to buy insurance. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think one should be cautious about using compulsion, and if I could be cer- . tain that a person who might have an accident could only hurt himself or herself, I might take the view that, well that's their own worry and if they don't want to bother they can take the risk.

Unfortunately, a person driving a car cannot only injure or kill himself, he can also injure or kill other people and we've had serious accidents almost every day of the week - certainly during this weather - and it seems to me a very realistic step that the Government of Manitoba should insist that people :who can afford to drive cars should provide adequate protection for themselves and for others with whom they may be in collision with.

Now we suggest -- we're satisfied that the experience in Saskatchewan proves that the government can provide a good service, a necessary service, a service that can be cheaper than the private companies are providing; and since we are not suggesting that this be a monop oly, since we're not suggesting that the private companies not be pe'rmitted to continue in opera tion, we feel that the government operation of such a plan would act as a very healthy yardstick and provide coverage - needed coverage - and protection to the motorist in the Province of Mani- �L . MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I don't intend to answer the Honourable Member for St. John's in respect of his arguments in the main motion. What I have said is already on record in this House and I'm going to satisfy myself by saying this, that I recall one time visiting the gentleman who was then the County Court Judge of the County Court of st. Boniface and saying July 3rd, 1959 Page 521

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd.) .... to him as I entered his office, "Your Honour, I see the Court of Appe.al has affirmed your decision in such and such a case." He looked at me and his answer was "in spite of what they said, I still think I'm right. 11 Now, I would like to deal with the amendment of the Honourable Member for Souris-Lans downe. The Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne in his amendment accepts and adopts the first two paragraphs of the main motion. The first paragraph contains the premise that an nually there's an increase in the number of motor vehicles on our highways.

The second also contains the premise that annually there's an increase in accidents caused by motor vehicles on our highways. Now in his amendment - the first paragraph of his amendment in my opinion is somewhat ambiguous if not incorrect.

He says in the first paragraph of his amendment, ''Where as claim frequency has been decreasing in the Province of Manitoba. 11 Now I don't see how you can have a decrease in claim frequency if you have an increase in accidents, and I think what the honourable member meant to say was this; that there has been an increase in the amount of in surance in Manitoba and a relative decrease in the number of. claims made against the Unsatis fied Judgment Fund. I think that that is the meaning the honourable member intends to convey.

Now as to the main part of his resolution, I'm quite prepared to commend the Government of Manitoba for its efforts to reduce traffic accidents through its driver training and driver improve-1 ment program because that is a program that was instituted a number of years ago.

It is a pro gram which has been adopted by this government and I hope that this government will continue with that program and continue to make such improvements in that program as are necessary to completely reduce the accidents on our highways to nil Now as to the latter part of the honourable member's amendment, I have no objection to that at all but I don't think it goes quite far enough, nor do I think that it gives the government the discretion which it should have.

Now I feel that the latter part of his amendment - if we are going to increase the maximum of the amounts payable in respect of claims under the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund, we will also have to increase the minimums under the insurance which has to be carried under the safety responsibility - of financial responsibility sections of our Highway Traffic Act, because those two amounts now, the minimum under the financial security

section and the maximum under the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund are the same; and if you are going to in crease the amount of l:laims payable under the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund, you must of necessity increase the minimums of the coverage required under your financial responsibility sections. Now for these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, that the Resolution as amended be further amended: (

a) By striking out the third paragraph of the

preamble thereof and substituting therefore the following, namely: "And

whereas the number of insured persons has been continuously increasing with a relative decrease in the number of claims made against and paid out of the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund. " and (

b) By deleting the last paragraph thereof and substituting therefore the following, namely; "Further

be it resolved that the government, after due study, give consideration to the advisa bility of increasing themaximum amounts payable out of the Unsatisfied Judgement Fund and of increasing the minimums required under

Section 140, Sub-section (4) of the Highway Traffic Act provided, in the opinion of the government, such increases are deemed advisable and in the interest of justice and humanity. 11 A MEMBER: You got that from the last election. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put, I'm wondering if the thll:d paragraph could be amended for clarification.to read: "Whereas claim frequency per hundred. insured vehicles has been decreasing in the ProVince of Manitoba. " Would that make for the clarification that you're seeking here? MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, was there maybe a decrease in claim frequency but I don't think there's actually any decrease in the number of claims that are being made against the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund, although relatively speaking there may be a decrease between the number of claims made against the Ui:l.Satisfied Judgment Fund and the number of claims paid by insurance companies. I think as you increase your individual coverage, more claims are paid by insurance companies and, relatively speaking, less claims are paid by the Unsatis fied Judgment Fund.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as it makes sense and it's understood, I don't care what amendments you suggest. If your suggestion in the opinion of the members of the House would give greater clarification, I have no objection to it. Page 522 July 3rd, 1959

MR. SPEAKER: Under the circumstances, I will take the resolution under advisement and it will appear on the Order Paper tomorrow. Does the order stand? -- Stand -- Adjourned de bate on the Proposed Resolution of the Honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. Party and the Pro posed Motion of the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne in amendment thereto. The Hon ourable Member for St. John's. Oh! I've done with that one. Proposed Motion of the Honourable Member for Pembina and the Proposed Motion of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for St. Rose. MR. A. E.

WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the honourable member would the House agree to allow this matter to stand? MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the Proposed Resolution of the Hon- .· ourable Member for Logan and the Proposed Motion of the Honourable Member for St. Vital in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. · MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in speaking to this resolution I'd like to refer to the original resolution for a moment. This is what one of my colleagues used to call "an ice-breaking" resolution.

Throughout the years these resolutions have been introduced, of a similar nature, and they have been ridiculed and they have been voted down many times, but eventually they have been accepted and they have become part of the law of the land and part of the life of the people. I can anticipate some of the arguments that will be used against this resolution.

People will say that it will drive employers out of business; it will price Canada out of the world mar kets; that it will be inflationary; that it is too radical a step to take at this time; or that it's be yond the power of the Federal Government, and so on and so on.

Ever since the beginning of the industrial revolution, employers have raised their object ion to wage increases and they have used every means at their disposal to do that, yet the whole history of our economy shows that the wage increases which have been won by labour have had the effect of stimulating and stabilizing our economy, and of strengthening our industry.

The success of every industry and every business depends on the sustained purchasing power of the consumer, and over and over again all political leaders have stated that future prosperity and the ending of the present recession depends on the volume of consumer purchasing power.

There's a quotation that I picked up from the Financial Post recently, ''What the consumer de cides to do is going to be a key factor in determining the depth and duration of this slump" - it's referring to one of the slumps - "it's this spending which helps clear off clogged inventories and sparks new orders from the factories." Then again, we have various ways of trying to cope with these recessions. We could offer the people a reduction in taxes or we could increase our public works programs.

These things are not of much help of an immediate nature , but an im mediate increase in minimum wages would have an immediate effect. The wages would be spent; retail sales would go up; stock accumulations would begin to be cleared off; and business in gen eral would begin to pick up. The Ontario Federation of Labour submitted a brief to the government of Ontario in what it called a "Crash Program" in providing jobs and helping to offset the present recession. In cluded in that program was a demand for a minimum wage of $1. 25 an hour.

Members will recall a discussion we had in regard to the miserable wages that were paid in the clothing indust ry last year. Now there is no reason for different wage rates in different parts of the country. There are lots of industries of a national character where the wage rates are identical from coast to coast, and the Railways, for instance, are a good example of a uniform wage scale in spite of the differences of climate. The more we can equalize these conditions all across the country the better for everyone concerned.

This principle was, in fact, recommended by the Rowell-Sirois Commission, and I quote, ''In order to protect the principle of freedom of trade between the provinces and to facilitate the handling of relief for employables by the Dominion, the Dominion Parliament should have the jurisdiction to establish basic minimum wages and maximum hours of.labour." I might say, Mr. Speaker, that it has been part of the studied pol icy of the C, C. F. for years to implement a national labour code. But let's get back to Manitoba.

It's hard to believe that there is anyone here who would say that 58� for women and 60� for men is suff icient to maintain a good standard of health today. Doctors tell us that it is necessary to get more protein into our diets today and these are the foods that cost the most money. A person could not buy very many roasts of beef on a 60� an hour wage. I think we should take to heart, Mr. Speaker, the words of advice from Prince July 3rd, 1959 Page 523

(Mr. Wright, cont'd.) •.• . Philip last week when he addressed the Medical Association in Tor onto and I wish to quote. The

article is headed that "Philip Upbraids us for being Weak." Speaking in Toronto, and he is now I think, the President of the Committee of Medical Associa tion, he says, "Then there is the less vital question of national prestige in sports and games." First of all, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that he said: "It is estimated that 34% of the male popu lation of military age are unfit for military service, in which case the prospects are not very good if an emergency should occur. Then there is the less vital question of national prestige in sports and games, with a few notable exceptions.

Canada's achievements in this line are hardly in keeping with a country which claims almost the highest standard in the world - standard of living, I mean. It is obvious the first thing is to see to it that all children from an early age are given regular physical instruction by properly qualified teachers. That, and adequate provision of facilities for physical recreation perhaps are the essential requirements in preventing sub health, although they are not enough by themselves." That is the end of the quote, Mr. Speaker, and I submit that surely good food and good living conditions are a part of that.

Addressing him self directly to the doctors as their new president, he said, "I expect you to give a lead in this matter by making a whole-hearted effort to reverse the trend of the statistics which at present only show more deaths, more mental cases and more unfitness in children and adults." I think, Mr. Speaker, that when we realize only 34% of our male population of military age can pass the medical examinations for military service today, that we should certainly heed the advice of this good man. I would like to quote from Hansard something which the Honourable Member for St.

Vital had to say the other day, and I'm quoting from page 184. He said, "High wages are the life blood of our nation and contribute immensely to the health of our economy. We are in favour of high wages and the increased purchasing power that high wages bring. Yes, we are in favour of high wages. Our job is to see that the minimum wage in Manitoba goes up and it surely must go up.

" Then he went on to say, "If the honourable member had dealt" - and he's referring to the Honourable Member for Logan, "If the honourable member had dealt with the Manitoba mini mum wage, he would have got a great deal more support than he will get for a resolution asking the establishment of a national minimum wage." He went on to say, "But his dream of a national minimum wage is another pious hope, another socialist pipe-dream, more pie in the sky." There's just one thing that worries my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, these socialist pipe dreams have a habit of becoming true.

Look at old age pensions, unemployment insurance. It wasn't very long ago that these were called socialist pipe-dreams. It is probable though that we cannot hope for much improvement until the next election because when an election is in sight - we have the happy thought about these frequent elections, Mr. Speaker - because every time we have an election the C. C. F. loses another plank. Mr. Speaker, this amendment in my opinion is meaningless. It's meaningless because the Minimum Wage Board in the ordinary performance of its duties will be reviewing the rates.

And although I believe that we should have a national minimum wage of $1. 25 an hour across the country and because I sense strong opposition to the original resolution, I am prepared, because of the extreme urgency of the present situation, to submit the following amendment to the amend ment. Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable.Member for Fisher, that the Proposed Amendment to the Resolution be further amended by striking out the word "reviewed" in the third line thereof and substituting the word "increased" and by deleting all the words after the word "delay" in the fourth line thereof and substituting the following: "To assure a reason able and adequate standard of living for all Manitoba workers." Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I had been prepared to go on with the amendment to the resolution and I didn't expect that there would be a further amendment to the amendment, but I don't think that the amendment to the amendment will in any way alter what I intended to say. Now it may seem very strange that I, a member of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, should come to the support of a Minister of the Crown but that's exactly what I intend to do here.

I believe that the amendment and the amendment to the amendment are tantamount to this House voting want-of-confidence in a Minister of the Crown, and I feel that I would not like to be a party to that manoeuvre. I believe that the Minister of Labour is an exceedingly capable, conscientious man and I believe, too, that he is quite capable of carrying out the duties that have Page 524 July 3rd, 1959

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd. ) •... been entrusted to him by this Legislature under the Employment of standards Act, and that under the Employment of Standards Act, the Minister is the indi vidual in whom the juri sdiction and discretion is vested for calling meetings and convening the Mini mum Wage Board. Now what this House is actually doing is going over the head of the Minister and giving a direction direct to the Board.

There is no other meaning that I can take out of that amendment, and for that reason I cannot support the amendment nor can I support the amendment to the amendment because the amendment to the amendment doesn't change the original impli cation that is in the amendment, namely, that this House is showing a lack of confidence in the Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I don't believe the question has been put yet on the sub-amendment. I thought my honour able friend was speaking to a point of order when he arose.

I may be incorrect but I didn't hear your Honour put the sub-amendment. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe you did put it and the Honourable Member for Assiniboia was going to adjourn it and the Honourable Member for Selkirk wished to speak to it, so I suggest to the Honourable the Attorney-General either he's asleep at the switch or he's a little late. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I didn 't hear him . HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, let us agree to take it as read. MR. SPEAKER: I didn 't hear what the First Minister said. MR. ROBLIN: In any case, Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that we take the sub-amendment as read seeing we've already had one speech on it and I think probably that would meet the wish of the House. MR. SPEAKER: It appears to be in order. Are you ready for the question? MR. D. M. STANES (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Birtle-Russell, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the Proposed Resolution of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. G. COBB (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, may I have the permission of the House to have this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: Stand. Proposed Resolution - the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Speaker, ·1 move, seconded. by the Honourable Member for Fisher, that:

Whereas the Agricultural Support Bill of the Federal Government does not give any assistance to the growers of wheat, oats and barley in Western Canada; and

whereas the need for such assistance is shown by the fact that in the period since 1947 the cost of the goods which farmers have to buy has risen by approximately 50% while the prices receiv ed for wheat, oats and barley have dropped by about 21%; and

whereas a mass delegation of farmers and a subsequent smaller delegation of farm spokesmen failed to receive a definite undertaking from the Federal Government regarding their requests for deficiency payments; And

whereas the Federal Government is now seemingly unable to decide whether to grant or re ject these requests in a decisive manner; therefore

be it resolved that in the opinion of this House the Government of Manitoba should support the farmers of the province by requesting that deficiency payments be immediately made available to Western farmers in order to assure to them a standard of living comparable to the average enjoyed by the people of Canada. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, in opening this debate on this resolution I would first of all like to say that I think we can all agree that it could be said that we can be satisfied merely to live in this potentially great land of Canada.

We should acknowledge the fact that in the course of the last 20 years or so great progress has been made in development and growth. There are still opportunitie s which lie ahead and which give hope. and faith to all those who are determined to do their share for their families and for their country. It is however, Mr. Speaker, quite illogical to assume or to expect that our affairs will right themselves automatically.

From time to time difficulties arise in the economy of our country and these difficulties present themselves to organizations and to governments for a solution, and that is the function of responsible organi zations and responsible governments -- to try and solve these problems. July 3rd, 1959 Page 525

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd.) .... Requirements in the agricultural situation of today -- as a matter of fact the situation in agriculture in the last ten years is no exception. We must face up to the fact that the agricultural industry since 1952 has been in somewhat less than a desirable position. I think that it is no more than fair than to commend the Provincial Government, and for that mat ter the governments of the two other prairie provinces, for having taken some steps to provide a semblance of self-help opportunity to the farmers.

I refer here, of course, to the legislation in the statute books of the three prairie provinces which provides for farm credit. Now commend able as farm credit might be, and it is commendable, farm credit constitutes only a partial solu tion to the problems facing agriculture at the present. As a matter of fact, it is questionable whether farm credit is, by any stretch of the imag',nation, a solution or a partial solution. There are a good many top farm spokesmen who would disagree with any one who stated that it was. The major part of the solution lies in the remedy as regards the cost-price squeeze. Mr.

Speaker, no one can deny that there is a disparity in farm income. The only way to reduce this disparity which has existed now for some seven or eight years is to implement a system of pay ments to alleviate the deficiencies of farm income in those areas where there are deficiencies and where the Agricultural stabilization Act, Federal Bill No. 237 does not apply; namely, wheat, oats and barley - western wheat, oats and barley. And that, Mr. Speaker, is still not to say that the Agricultural Stabilization Act is a good Act. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, when it was first brought into the House of Commons in January of 1958, it was so full of imperfections that the government - the Diefenbaker Government had to take it back into committee and put in some nine amendment - major amendments. It's interesting to note that even before the amendments were put into this rather imperf ect legislation that one of the Conservative M. P. 's from Mani toba - Western Manitoba - got up and praised this Bill as being a Bill of Rights to the western farmer.

Well, shortly after that Bill was doctored up to the extent that nine amendments we re added to it and it still provides no real semblance of price support, so I would.hasten to add, Mr. Speaker, that government members in this House should not hasten to defend the Federal Govern ment on this score. I said that the Agricultural Stabilization Act was inadequate and there's good reason for making that statement because in the first place, it is so constituted that the Minister of Agri culture can interpret it in so many diff erent ways.

That being the case, whenever a price guaran tee is needed most that's when the Minister cari see fit to change his

interpretation of some clause and that is borne out by the fact that, as of October this year, there's going to be a major change in the

interpretation of one of the clauses in this Act because, as of October this year, the government, the Federal Government will stop buying up hogs in order to keep it at the pres ent floor price.

They will cease doing that and they will allow hogs to go on the market to fetch whatever price they might and then at the end of the year the market price will be averaged out and if it is below the floor price which is going to be lowered now, to 20. 9 cents per pound, what ever it f etches on the market will be subtracted, the average of that will be subtracted from the 20. 9 cents and the difference will be made up by the Federal Treasury. This is going to mean a substantial decrease in the income to hog producers and why is the Minister of Agriculture doing that?

Mainly because there is over production in hogs and this over production in hogs is going to be followed up by an over production in other livestock brances, poultry, cattle and specifically speaking in poultry, turkeys. There is over production almost already. And why is there such a tremendous increase in production of livestock? Mainly because farmers have been encouraged and some have seen fit to switch from grain production to livestock production.

Those people who say that deficiency payments on grain is not serving any useful purpose, ob viously, fail to see that it is the fact that there has been no deficiency payments on grain that has caused the farmers to go over into livestock production causing disequilibrium in that field of agriculture. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, no livestock producers of standing are happy about this. The grain growers aren't happy about this. It wonld seem therefore that the case for de ficiency p:ayments on western grain is a just case.

Sometime during the course of the last year, I believe it was the la st session, .I heard one of the government members get up and say that de ficiency payments is not as desirable as acreage payments because deficiency payments would benefit the large farmers. The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that if you take into consideration Western farmers that some 220, OOO out of a total of --- of yes, some 210, OOO out of a total of Page 526 July 3rd, 1959

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd. ) .••. 230, OOO farm less than 590 acres or 600 acres. Is it very logical Mr. Speaker, to turn down a request for deficiency payments on this basis, because you would be denying 90% of the farmers deficiency payments because of the other 10% which happen to be in what you could justly call a large farm category? But let us not lose sight of this, Mr. Speaker, that they the farmers have asked for a $1, 500. mructmum and so that will bring equity into it on that phase. I would recommend to government members to read the Western Producer Editorial of June 18th, there is a fairly good

article there on the case of big farmers and small far mers. I've brought in this resolution, among other reasons, because I felt that there was a lot of ind ecision and delay at Ottawa. The Federal Government does not seem to be able to make up its mind, one way or the other. There is ample evidence of that, I might quote, Mr. Speaker, from Hansard, Federal Hansard of June 5th. Honourable Mr. Pearson, Leader of the Opposit ion, directs a question to Mr.

Diefenbaker and I quote: "I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether any Legislation of any kind is to be introduced this sessions providing for additional payments to grain growers?" Mr. Diefenba ker - "It is interesting to have that question asked by the honourable gentleman. Over the years when he sat on this side of the House that very question was asked from time to time and invariably the answer was that consideration was being given to this question. While I do appreciate the interest he has in this regard I do not intend to add anything to the remarks made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.

" And then Mr. Argue - "A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Prime Minister could say whether the consideration being given to this question is likely to result in action? 11 Mr. Dief enbaker ''I would suggest" - listen to this answer - "I would suggest that the two sides sit to gether. " Mr. Pickersgill - "Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might direct a furthe r question to the Prime Minister.

In light of the statements he made the other day, that the Government had no furthe r legislation in contemplation except that of which indication had been given to the House, do we take it that there is no further legislation in contemplation?" Mr. Diefenbaker - "Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the honourable gentleman remembered what I said the other day . " Well we can pursue this quote but all that it really point out, Mr.

Speaker, is that there has been no serious, no serious consideration on the part of the Federal Government regarding deficiency payments and the reas.on I say that is because when the mass delegation went to Ottawa, the Prime Minister told the delegation tb.at the reason deficiency payments might not be fort hcoming was because he had asked them three questions the year previous and he hadn't received an an swer.

Well, subsequent then to that mass delegation, a smaller delegation went down, provided him with those very answers in a brief - he's got his answers now, there 's still no announcement forthcoming as to whether or not there will be deficiency payments or acreage payments. None whatsoever. And I believe that because of this indecision this government can, in its own way, do somethingfor its farm population. I can see nothing improper or nothing unconstitutional with having this government request the Ottawa government to make payments on a deficiency pay ment basis. Surely we can do that much, Mr.

Speaker, but the idea of def iciency payment is only a moderated version of parity prices . Originally that is what a good many farm spokesmen had been dem anding. It was suggested that it was not too practical. Oh then the greater number of farm ers seem to have modified their demands . Now they are asking for def iciency payments and it doesn't even seem likely that they will get that. It seems almost heartbreaking that far m ers should have been led down a path of deception the way they were in the last three years, be cause I will read you a quote from the March 12th, 1956, Federal Hansard, Mr.

Diefenbaker speaking - "in opinion of the House consideration should be given by the government to the pos sibility of introducing during the present session legislation to create a parity of price for agri cultural products at levels to insure producers of fair cost price relationship. " Then he goes on to say "the squeeze which the fa rmer suff ers results from the disparity in the relationship between the prices of farm products and the prices the farm er has to pay.

When they are in proper relationship, parity is established, and it is parity that the farm organizations across this country are asking for today, not charity, but parity. " Now that is the Prime Minister speaking. What happened, this is the Prime Minister speaking before he became Prime Mini ster, it's true. A good many fa rmers, a good many of the agricultural folk , not only in Mani toba but Western Canada accepted this as being the convictions of a sincere man.

Well three years have elapsed, not only is there no action along the lines of parity prices but no action along the lines of a more modified demand - namely deficiency payments. Yes •. .••....• July 3rd, 1959. Page 527

MR. A. E. CORBETT (Swan River): ••.••.••.•.. Do you not consider the $200. 00 advance to the farm ers some form of deficiency payment? MR. SCHREYER: No, it's not a deficiency payment, it's an acreage payment and that . more properly does not come under parity but it comes under charity. The very thing that he said far mers didn't want he gave them, namely charity, because if you analyze it closely you will see tha t

whereas under a scheme of deficiency payments you could have a scientific and carefully worked out mathematical formula for payments under his acreage, dollar an acre deal, it was a scheme of charity and nothing more. No formula involved, no formula involved. I feel that the farmers of this province have scaled down their demands enough to have done that, the least that they should receive now is deficiency payments, Mr. Speaker. And in clos ing I would like to quote the words of the present Premier of this province when he spoke over C.K.R . C. and C. K. X. Tuesday, Octover 12th, 1954.

Agricultural situation then as much as it is today, much the same situation and his words sum it up quite nicely so I can think of no better way to close, Mr. Speaker. "We must face the fact that the agricultural industry is in something less than a satisfactory position. We are all aware that for the past few years, farm profits have been in a steady squeeze . The per capita income of farm ers falls behind the nat ional average," and that is true, Mr. Speaker. The farmer is not getting a proportionate share of the national income and that is also true, Mr. Speaker.

We know that he is in an exposed position, competing as he does in the unprotected markets of the world and we know that in this year he has also been the victim of mother nature. That of course would not perhaps apply to this year, but everything else does. After ten years of comparative prosperity on: the farm there is no call for gloom or pessimism but on the other hand there is no room for complacency. There is suff icient justification for use to examine this state of aff airs and see what we can do to find out what lies within our control to remed y and to earn the premium that comes with helping ones self.

Now Mr. Speaker, before I sit down I would say that this epitomizes or summarizes, if you like, just what we should be .doing at this time, namely, this government should send a message framed' in no uncertain terms asking the Federal Government to quit shilly-shallying and to extend defic iency payments to western farme rs. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. K, ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from St. Matthews that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Proposed resolution of the Honourable the. Leader of the Oppositi-0n. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside) Mr. Speaker, I would ask to have this motion stand. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. Second reading of Bill No. 65. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye) Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Emerson that Bill No. 65,

An Act to amend

an Act Respecting the Ste. Agathe Bridge of the Red River in Manitoba, be now read a seond time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I wish I was an economist, I would like to spend about an hour explaining why interest rates have done what they've done. This Bill is a very obvious one. It calls for an increase in the amount that the Municipality of Ritchot can pay in the form of interest from 5-1/2% to 6%, the maximum amol.int. The sum is $100, OOO. 00 to be borrowed as the municipality's portion of the construction of a $400, OOO. 00 bridge at ste. Agathe and so that this Act is

an Act to amend the original Act which was passed a year ago which set out the amount which could be borrowed at a maximum rate of 5-1/2%. This changes it to 6%.

It would be a pity I suppose to pass over this opportunity to make note of the position that municipalities are generally finding themselves in, school boards and one thing and another, to the continual rise in interest rates, and I think that in the past year especially every project of this type is going to cost provinces, it's going to cost municipalities, it' s going to cost school boards a great deal more money than they had dreamt it was going to cost them because of the tremen dous increase in interest rates.

Particularly a bridge of this type which the fund is to be amortized over twenty years, it will involve a great deal more money than they'd originally intended to put into it. And surely this problem of a spiralling interest rate must be of Page 528 July 3rd, 1959 .•

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd. ) •..• tremendous concern to this government because they have obviously gone into a do now, pay later type of policy on their projects and it must be, it's going to be a tremendous extra burden, the fact that Manitoba is going to have to pay fully 5-1/2% for their money instead of the 4% which they could have borrowed if times had been normal.

Now I'm no economist as I said, but to me the only obvious reason why the interest rates are increasing at the rate they're increasing is the Federal Government's clamour for more money and the ob vious reluctance of the Canadian public to buy Federal Bonds and therefore the resulting ridic ulous handouts that the Minister of Finance, Mr. Fleming, is having to dish up in order to raise more money and therefore I suggest, at least with the hope that this Bill will pass second reading so that the people of the Municipality of Ritchot can carry on and build their bridge.

MR, SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? . Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKE R: Committee of the Whole House. Committee of the Supply. HON, DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I was hoping that we would proceed with the debate on Bill 35, but I see the gentleman who had the adjournment is not here. Can anyone say whether he's on the premises or is he gone for the day? Here he is now. Mr. Speaker I would ask the House to take up Bill No. 35 now if the ·honourable member is prepared to speak and then go into Committee of the Supply. MR.

SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No. 35. MR. IDLLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to crave the indulgence of the House and ask that this matter be allowed to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Matter stand. MR. ROBLIN: I suppose so, Mr. Speaker. We would be glad to extend that courtesy to my honourable friend, he's usually a very agreeable fellow. Jn that case then we will proceed with the Committee of the Supply and I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agri culture that Mister Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried: and asked the Honourable Member for St. Matthews to take the Chair. HON, STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, before we proceed there were some questions asked last evening by the Honourable the Member for Burrows relative to textbooks and to the loan fund. First with respect to textbooks the question was; will there be record sheets? The ans wer is yes. The question: will there be record sheets ? The answer is yes. The second question: Is there to be or will there be caution fee money?

The answer is that this will be at the option of each local district or each local board which will be held res ponsible for the proper care of the books issued to it. The other questions had to do with the loans made to students and these figures are for the fiscal year 1958-59. There were 76 loans made to university students and a total amount of $19, 605. 00. There were 207 loans made to teachers in training for a total amount of $49, 906. 00.

The maximum amount of the loans made to university students $300. 00; to teachers $250. 00; to nurses $200. 00 for the first year and $100 each for the second and third years. The amount outstanding at March 3lst, 1959, - now we are assuming that the honourable member had in mind the amounts that were past due, that is not paid in accordance with the repayment arrangement. The university loans, the figure is not available but it is quite small. That figure we would have to ge,t from the University and we're unable to do so . Teachers, the amount outstanding $566, 30 and nurses $147. 32.

Now in the university loans, I have here computation 37 students received a loan of $300. 00 each;· 2 students received $275. 00 each; 10 received $250 . 00; 3 received $225. 00; 1 $205. 00; 13 $200. 00; 2 $175. 00; 5 $150. 00; 1 $125. 00; 1 student $50. 00; simply indicating that the amounts of the loans vary of course from $5 0. 00 to $300. 00, On the Manitoba Teachers ' College loans there were about five loans made above the $250. 00 figure that I mentioned earlier and they range then from $250. 00 down to $68. 00. Five over the $250. 00, they only went to a maximum of $300. 00 each.

That is the maximum amount is $200. 00 and there were only that number over the $250. 00. MR. PAULLEY: Thank you Mr. Minister. MR, CHAIRMAN: Item 4 Directorate of Instruction;

(1) Salaries MR. W, C, MILLER: (Rhineland) Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would be kind July 3rd, 1959. Page 529

(Mr. Miller, cont'd. ) •••. enough to give us a breakdown or indicate what sub-departments ·are included in this item. MR.

McLEAN: The staff that is included in this are the Director of Instruction - that's more commonly known as the Chief Inspector; a stenographer; 48 inspectors; one supervisor of radio; one stenographer; one scriptwriter; supervisor of visual education,one; clerks and stenographers in that particular branch,three; correspondence principal,one; assistant principal of correspondence, one; senior teacher, one; course writers, this is in the correspondence branch, nine; markers, five; clerks and stenographers, ten for a total of 84. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains) : Mr.

Chairman, would the Minister tell us whether the salaries of inspectors have been increased recently or is he anticipating an increase in them? Salaries of school inspectors. MR. McLEAN: •••••• I'm sorry. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Have the salaries of school inspectors been increased recently or are you anticipating an increase and is it found in this item? MR.

McLEAN: Well the item as it appears is the amount required for salaries on the basis in effect as of the 3lst of March 1959, subject only to the provision for the increased number of inspectors effective the 15th of August of this year but included in the item which is at the back of the estimates $965, OOO. 00, is the necessary monies to increase the salaries of all inspectors to the new rate which begins at $7, 680. 00 and they will all be at the minimum on the new scale and go to $9, 460. 00 I think is the maximum. They'll all be at the minimum how ever on the new scale at the new rate. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, have there been any-salary changes since the first of January 1959, insofar as Inspectors are concerned? MR. McLEAN: Well the salaries actually paid since the first of April are being paid at the new rates applicable - that figure I mentioned. That is the only change. MR . J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows) : Mr. Chairman, I think several days ago the Honour able Minister mentioned the fact that they intended to have an inspector to each school division, is that right? MR . McLEAN: Yes . MR.

HAWRYLUK: Now according to last year's public accounts you had 44 inspectors listed there and I believe about a month ago you hired six more inspectors and that would give a total of 50. I was just wondering if that's the contemplated figure for this year. MR. McLEAN: We will have as of the 15th of August, we will have 48 inspectors. MR. CAMPBEL L: Mr. Chairman, did the Honourable the Minister say that since April first that the. inspectors were being paid at the increased rates ? MR. McLEAN: Yes. MR. .,GA,114PBELL: Could I ask what raise there has been in the category?

I must say that I looked at.the information that was furnished to us in this regard and I had to look rather hurriecilY; :. Qu�� frankly, school inspectors was one of the categories that I was interested in and in the copy that we got I had a very hurried look at it and it seemed to me that it indicated that that was one that had not yet been changed. I understand the Minister to say that it has been in effect ... . MR. McLEAN: I'm not clear to what you1re referring. You said you looked at the copies supplied .•. MR.

CAMPBEL L: Yes, the other evening there was a discussion about salary schedules for civil servants, and there was a return tabled here, I think by the Honourable the First Minister, which was carrying out his undertaking that information would be given to the House with regard to the present salary

schedule and, well, that it would be given with regard to the salary schedules in effect at the present time, and my rememberance is, and I looked at it very, very hurriedly, I didn't see that a change had been made in school inspectors. That's one of the ones I was looking for. (Interjection) Did anyone else notice the same thing because •.•. MR. HAWRYLUK: No, there's a change in it, there is a change .. MR. CAMPBELL: Is there a change? Yes, well, if it's in there that's .... MR. McLEAN: I haven't seen the document to which the honourable member refers but .. MR.

CAMPBELL: Well, my honourable friend tells me that it's in there and if it is then I can get the answer to my question there. Page 530 July 3rd, 1959.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed.

(2) Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals - passed. Total - $580, 990 . 00. (

d) of item 4. Directorate of Special Services:

(1) Salaries. MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, would the Honourable Minister give us a similar breakdown on this one ? MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, the staff under this particular item are Director of Special Services, one person; the person in charge of what is commonly known as Special Schools or the schools in districts where they have no -- where we have to maintain the schools entirely from provincial funds, that person and a secretary account for two; teachers of the deaf children in the School for the Deaf operated by the province, six; institutional teachers, that is in the home for boys, the home for girls, Ninette Sanatorium, Princess Elizabeth Hospital and Shriners Hospital - a total of eleven; physical education supervisor and stenogra pher , making for two persons; home economic supervisor, one; alcohol education director, one; and one person in a stenographic· pool - it isn't a very big pool - making a total of 25 persons.

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, under institutional teachers, has there beeri an expansion? They were formerl y listed at 10. MR McLEAN: Yes. MR. MILLER: In which field? MR McLEAN: A teacher has been added in Princess Elizabeth Hospital . MR HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, last year we got a report, or rather just bef�re the last session we had a report, an excellent report on the study of Physical Education and Recre ation in Manitoba. Now, is there anything being done about it ?

I don't think there's been any mention made at this session and the fact that we've had some criticism by a medical doctor as to the backward policy in this regard across Canada. In fact to have this study ready it cost $15, OOO. 00 or $8, OOO. 00. I was just wondering when it intends to have it implemented to the fullest extent so that we can get the benefits of it in the various schools in Manit oba. MR McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, that report was quite a lengthy report and I think it's only correct to say that no specific steps have been taken to implement the report other than the fact that the Minister of -- my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and my colleague the Minister of Health and Welfare have been looking into it and I believe that coming along in the regular course of the House will be certain legislation in the field of municipal legislation which arise as a result of that report.

We did , however, because the matter of physical edu cation insofar as education is concerned - I'm speaking now of the Department of Education - in a sense it's part and parcel of the whole field of curriculum. We asked the Royal Commissi on on Education to take into account in their considerations and deliberations the report made by the physical education people and, if they deemed it advisable to let us have their recommend ations with respect to it, and I was of the opinion that we should consider it along with any changes that we might be making in the field of curriculum when we come to overhaul that.

Now, the approach of course, that is made by my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and my colleague the Minister of Health and Welfare is rather from a community standpoint as distinct -- that is physical education from a community point of view as distinct from physical education from the point of view of the schools and how it works in the schools. So the answer so far as the schools are concerned is that no particular positivie steps have been taken arising from that report, but we haven't lost sight of it and it's very much in our con sideration and will be considered. MR HAWRYLUK: Mr.

Chairman, just to follow up this physical education program. We've had a situation - for instance in our particular area, where we've been asking and hoping to get physical educational people who are qualified to teach, and it's amazing that there are not very many people qualified to go into that field. The reason for that is that they have to take their particular courses across the line , and I was just wondering Sir, whether there is . any consideration or talk about putting up a physical education course into a degree form at the University of Manitoba. I know I heard that about 5 years ago, a Dr.

Frank Kennedy who is in chr.rge there, and evidently nothig has been done, and I can tell you that there are many people in Manitoba that would be very much interested in taking this course in the City of Winnipeg rather than go, say to Minneapolis and to other uni versities across the line . It's a very integral part of our education and I'm just wondering whether any consideration would be given and whether you can suggest that particular course being offered at the University of July 3rd, 1959 Page 531

(Mr. Hawryluk, con t'd. ) . . . . Manitoba, because it's definitely a must and we have a great shortage of it. As a matter of fact, I know that in our district we can't possibly get a -- we haven't got a physical education for the girls yet, that is qualified. And I think it's something that every school board is faced up with. MR. McLEAN: That's a very worthwhile suggestion and it's quite true that there is a shortage on two fronts; one for teachers in the schools, and second for physical education lead ers in the sense of community physical education and recreation.

I think perhaps that's the term used more often, Recreation Leaders. And I'll certainly be very happy to discuss that with the people at the University because both are needed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item

(1) Salaries - Passed.

(2) Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, on item (3) . I take it that this is the item where the unfortunate children in the city who are deaf and blind -- deaf and mute are going to Saskatoon for schooling. Is that the item there? MR. McLEAN: I think we're on item (2) just at the m()ment •.. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item

(2) Supplies, Expenses. MR. GRAY: That's passed isn't it? Oh, I'm sorry, Sir, I thought it was passed. MR. CHAIRMAN:

(3) Tuition fees. MR. GRAY: Now there's the reason I got up a little early (Interjection) The Official Opposition adopted a slogan and they used it all day yesterday, they may use it tonight too, this is "following the previous policy". I would like to respectfully suggest to the Minister now not to follow the previous policy altogether of the opposition and try to -- something new. For years we have suggested that a school be moved in Winnipeg. The reason for it given at that time , firstly, they've had a school here.

The building was taken over then by the army and now it's being used by the School for Teachers. But they had a school here. And then the policy was of the previous government to send them down to Saskatoon. The Saskatoon School is a very fine school, I'm not arguing about that, but I think that the children who are normal, intelligent, carry with them a very serious inferiority complex on account of their handicap. I think a child like this should be closer at home, and should be able to see her mother and father, and probably the other· sisters, quite oftener.

I'm not speaking now by the academic learning that they get, except then over there the parents have no facilities to go down there, to go often. Those who are very wealthy send their children to other private schools in Amer ica somewhere but those who cannot afford, the government has to take care of them, the. Department of Education, and at that time they found that Saskatoon either is the only place they could send them or it's more economical, I don't know the reason why. But I do know that for many years they've tried to make a change.

I have many, many mothers complaining, come again and because their children are being sent away from home. They would like to see them. And I think it's quite advisable from the point of view of keeping the family together, also from the point of view of having some comfort even for these children, who suffer on acc ount of their physical incapacity.

And I think that some consideration be given, serious consideration, of having a school in Winnipeg and those in the rural districts can also send their children here, and I don't see why we should have them go to a school outside the city irrespective of the good accommodation in that school. So I would sug gest to the Minister to give this matter serious consideration and perhaps, it may be advisable if he could make a statement now, and give some encouragement to those mothers who are unfortunate to· have children with this physical handicap. MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, I can't make any statement other than to say that l appreciate the views which the honourable member has expressed and it is something that we are quite conscious of the fact that a child, becaus e he suffers an affliction of deafness or dumbness, shouldn't, if possible, be away from the parents any more than any other child. And as parents, we understand the feeling of parents and the children themselves. There is, of course, the problem that even if one had a school in the city, there are a certain number who will be away from home because they come from points outside of the Greater Winnipeg area.

There is one other feature that I think we would wish to be certain of and that is, if we were to establish such a school that we had adequate and properly trained - I perhaps shouldn't use the term adequate - but properly trained teachers. This is a very special field and it is a Page 532 July 3rd, 1959.

(Mr. McLean, cont'd) •... fact that in the schools that the pupils attend, they are of a very high calibre and have excellent staffs. However, that's not to say that staffs will not be avail able and it should be, I think, our objective to work with the view of having our own schools and as soon as we can be certain that we can give them the same high standard of training as they're able to get in the other schools.

Of course, the School for the Deaf Children in the school that's operated here is certainly substantial -- I mean it accepts that principle and is a move in that direction and I agree that we should certainly consider eJ,.'tending that principle to take in the other children. MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, just ...• Oh, I'm sorry. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) : Mr. Chairman, if I might just carry on with some . of the statements made by the Member for Inkster.

According to the report of the Depart- ment of Education issued last year there are approximately 120 students or children he�e in this province who have to go to some special school outside this province. Some 50 or 60 go to Saska toon and some 20 or 30 go to Ontario, I believe in this case it's those that are blind. Now, if! might just digress for a moment. I think that most members know that there was a school in this province for the education of the deaf and mute children and when war came it was found necessa ry to turn that school over into a school for the training of military communica tions men.

However, and several parents who have spoken to me about this say that the govern ment of the time gave the parents an undertaking that with the return of peace that the school would be turned back to the education of the deaf and mute children. Well, then when peace did return to this world that was not done. However, that is not really the important point. It wasn't done, we can still do it. I think members should bear in mind that children who are deaf or blind need to be closer to their parents, closer to their home than those children who are normal.

And even with normal children it's not a good idea to send them away at a young and tender age. Probably some would advance the argument that for reasons of economy it's not practical to build a school in this province exclusively for that purpose. But I would just like to remind the honourable members that there are about 120 children thus afflicted and really for a residential type school, any enrollment over a hundred will lend itself to effic iency of operation. So it's not impractical from an economic sense or from an economic view point.

And seeing as how I mentioned the type of school as being a residential school, there's something else that the Minister -- I respectfully submit to the Minister he should bear in mind because in the education of deaf and blind children there is no substitute for a residential type school. A day school is all right but at best it can only do half a job because children who are deaf or blind require training over and above what they would get during regular class hours.

And assum ing that this government does see fit, and it's interested enough to really look into the possibility of constructing a residential type of school for the education of the blind and deaf children of this province, then I would like also to suggest to the Honourable Minister that if they have to acquire a site, why not acquire it somewhere in the nearer vicinity of the Uni versity, because in the training of teachers, faculty students, the training program is hindered somewhat by the lack of the laboratory setting.

By that I mean that, I know that faculty mem bers, professors would certainly welcome the opportunity to take student teachers into an en vironment where they can actually work with the children through the day . It doesn't seem like a very far fetched idea and I hope that the Honourable Minister gives it some sonsideration. Perhaps there's a germ of a possibility that something substantial can be done. MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, ..•....•.• ask the Minister. The travel expenses of these children that have to leave the province, that is taken care of, isn't it? MR. McLEAN: Yes it is . MR.

DESJARDINS: Is that only once a year, Sir, or is that -- is there any provision for holidays and Christmas and so on, especially for the younger children? MR. McLEAN: I can't tell you, I'm sorry. I would assume that they are brought home at Christmas time and taken back. I would find it very strange if they weren't. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item (3) - passed. Item

(4) Construction, Alterations and ... MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chaiiman, I left the House. Would the Minister indicate all of the various categories that are included in this tuition and so on? Maintenance, Travel Expenses, what categories does it cover ? And further to that, there's also in this item such things as the radio programs, radio education, like that. Is that all included in this general item? July 3rd, 1959. Page 533

MR. McLEAN: What is your question? What categories .• .•• MR. PAULLEY : What all is included in this Tuition Fees, is it just the schools for the blind. MR. McLEAN: The deaf, the blind and mute children. Tuition fees, travelling expenses and the other expenses that are incidental to the care of these children. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item

(4) Construction, Alterations and Renovations. MR. MILLER: What is this item, Mr. Chairman? MR. McLEAN: The present school for the deaf contains 4 classrooms and a lunch room and for some time, at least for the last year the lunch room has been used as a class room be cause of the enrollment. And when the building was originally constructed, as the Honourable Member well knows, a provision was made for an addition of four rooms and these will be built this summer and the amount included in the estimates is the estimated cost of that con struction. MR.. CHAIRMAN:

(5) Alchol Education Committee. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I know that any suggestions I make in this House will be just like a voice in the wilderness but I'll make it anyway. I was just wondering whether the government -- I'm speaking now to the First Minister, whether there1s any consideration given of dividing the Departments of Health and Public Welfare. It came to my mind just when checking _this item of Alcholic Education $68, OOO. 00. Then, there is an item also under the Attorney General's Department, and there was an item yesterday under the Department of Education.

I think perhaps, wouldn't it be possible to hand over to the Department of Welfare, whether it's on one minister or two ministers, to the Department of Welfare to handle all aspects of Alcoholic Education. Now, I noticed in the public accounts of a year ago that $66 , OOO. 00 that they spend $57, OOO. 00 and $10, OOO. 00 for salaries, should be that's $47, OOO. 00, and in the $47, OOO. 00 they have advertising and exhibits $48, OOO. 00. I really don't know what good is the advertising and the exhibits. I read them.

I don't pay attention: because they apply only to those who come home at night and I can listen to the radio and read the papers. Those element -- those elderly people I don't think you can -- it's a waste of money to try to educate them. They have their habits and probably they'll follow it whether it's good for them or not. The main thing is for the youth. Advertising in the press and spending $48, OOO. 00, almost 75% of the estimates for advertising in the press, will not do any good to a young man who is not as careful a driver when he drives a car, or the school for boys who do not read advertising.

They haven't got even enough time to read the sports and the comics, never mind the advertising. They don't even read the news. And then again periodicals, they only spend $343 . 00 which is an impo rtant thing of having periodicals, study the question. They didn't pay very much atten tion to that. And postage, telephone and telegraph $4. 85. In other words apparently no one writes to them for advice. They do not write to anybody because otherwise they spend only $4. 85 for telegram, telegraph -- and then printing $148. 00, it's also - doesn't indicate that they're doing a great work.

Now. this is, with the exception of two paid employees, this is a voluntary organization and I never like to criticize a voluntary organization because after all they are giving their time free, they're interested in their subject otherwise they would not have undertaken to act on the committee, but perhaps it's not done scientifically and it's not being operated by people that probably know something about -- know so little about the su bject.

So, I would suggest, of course, I would suggest to give them money anyway, because whatever work they do it's so much to the good, but ! would suggest that a department or the Department of Public Welfare take over all aspects ofAlcohol Education and Prevention and everything else and I think that the profits of the Liquor Commission could well afford to make a substan tial contribution. Now, let's do the job right. And I again predict I think you will have probably $12, OOO, OOO. 00 profit from the, I.don't want you to - Mr.

Treasurer, from the �- make a profit, more money could be given to them and put it in the hand of those people that know how to handle it and, although I do not want to discourage the commissions and voluntary organiz- ations, nevertheless there are three or four bodies doing the same work, particular the same /· work, each in a different field and in my opinion I don't think they have accom plished anything. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I would be very happy insofar as this item in our wor k is concerned, to let Geor.ge do it.

I think a word of how this arises, in the report of the Braken Commission they recommended along with their other recommendations assistance to the Page 534 July 3rd, 1959.

(Mr. McLean cont'd) .... Manitoba Temperance Alliance to--fin ancial assistance that is, to enable them to continue the work which they were doing at that time and have been doing since in the field of Alcohol Education. In addition, they recommended this type of program called, as it now goes under the heading of "Alcohol Education Committee", and this appropriation and this Committee operates as the result of that recommendation. The Committee is made up of five members together with the chairman, six in all.

This group prepares material which is used in the various advertising media, newspapers, radio, television, to encourage by that means sobriety and temperance in the use of alcohol.

I have myself, and when I say this to the House I'm not saying anything that I haven't said to the Committee itself, that I share with the Honourable Member grave doubts about the effecti veness of that type of work insofar as moder ating the use of alcohol is concerned because I think that it is probably quite true that the people who see or read or hear the advertisements are not the people who need to be reached insofar as alcohol education is concerned.

However, any suggestion of curtailing it would be met with very serious objections and I think that we might as well recognize that--certain groups feel that this was a recommendation and the government of the province is bound to honour it and to provide the money, and it would be in my opinion somewhat diff icult to curtail it.

I think that, however, that the suggestion which the honourable member has made that the whole field of alcohol education is one which we could and should look at very carefully and it does not only embrace the Department of Education but the Department of Public Health and Welfare and the Department of the Attorney-General and I think that we could agree that some very caref ul con sideration could be given to that. In the meantime, however, I would like it to be understood that this item is in compliance with the recommendations of the Bracken Commission. MR.

DESJARDINS: Would the minister explain the diffe rence of the work of this Commit tee and the Temperance Alliance or is it just duplication? MR. MC LEAN: Well, the Temperance Alliance, their work consists in, they have four members on their staff and they are called field men and they go about giving lectures or hav ing discussions in schools on alcohol with the objective, of course, of indicating to the pupils the necessity for abstinence or moderation in any event in the use of alcohol, and in addition, of course, they work through church groups and community groups of all kinds.

They are available to speak to groups other than in the schools and they do, they are busy all the time and that is the field in which they work. Now the Committee on Alcohol Education, however, its work is confined to the publishing of ad vertisements with respect to it. I myself don't ever hear them on the radio but they do be on the radio. You will see them in the daily newspapers and weekly newspapers, the advertise ments which appear over the title of the Alcohol Education Committee and they confine them selves entirely to that. They do not take any

part in instruction as such but confine themselves to the publication of these advertisements. Now of this total amount, the total amount is ac tually shown there $67, OOO. 00 is not the entire amount because there has been omitted from there the salary of the director who appeared in another item just a few moments ago, actually the total is $75, OOO. 00 and that amount this year, the estimated amount will be $62, 500. 00 that is spent for advertisements, a very substantial sum of money.

The balance is .to take care of the honouraria that is paid to the members of the committee and other incidental expenses which are quite small. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I think we all agree on the need for work in this field. At the same time I must admit that I am in general agreement with the Minister about the diffi culties of doing effective work. I remember not very long ago discussing his question with one of the men who had spent about 30 years as a principal of one of the larger schools in Winnipeg and his reaction was pretty skeptical.

He wondered what good it was to lecture students about abstinence or temperance or the dangers of alcohol when certainly in more than 50% of the homes of the Province of Manitoba children see that their parents do use liquor. So I am not so certain that even though we agree on the idea that we ought to be doing more, if we know quite what to do. I really rise, Mr. Chairman, to ask a question.

In the recent issue of the New York Times I saw a report of a convention of a group of psychiatrists in New York and one of the psychiatrists dealing with the question of alcoholism made the statement that Alcoholics Anony mous had been more successful in dealing with alcoholics than any group of psychiatrists or ;my July 3rd, 1959. Page 535

(Mr: Orlikow cont'd) ...• other group and I wonder, I know it isn't in this item but is the (may be this isn't the proper pla ce, I don't know quite where the proper place is) are we helping to fi nance Alcoholic s Anonymous and if so, how much? If it is a diffe rent item I'll stand it over. MR. MC LEAN: Well I think the answer to that question, Mr. Chairman, is ''No", but the Dep3.rtment of Public Health and Welfare does have a very substantial part to play in con nection with the Alcohol Foundation, that is correct, but there is nothing in this that deals with Alcoholic s Anonymous . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to start where I left off yesterday, I think the House had enough but neverthele ss I would like to take this occasion to show that this again seemed to be the same probl em . I can see that the government does a lot of work, but the minister himself doesn't actually believe in this. And I think that what we need more than anything else is co-ordination, again this is under three diff erent departments.

And I think that this could also go tinder this "moral education" that I referred to last night--by moral education I definitely would not mean religious education--and I think if we ever made a survey of these things that this prevention of juvenile delinque ncy and crime and this alc ohol, this could all go under this moral and mental education. I think that it is co-o rdination in leader ship that we need. I certainly didn't mean yesterday and I don't mean now that the government is not doing anything but the minister himself fe els that this was recommended.

It's more or less that we pretty well have to do it but there is very little value from it. MR. CHAIRMAN: .•••• total director of special services $317, 945. 00. Resol ution No. 24. Student Instruction $1, 759, 680. 00. Total votes for the department. MR. HAWRYLUK: Is there any chance of the minister telling us about any building that is going to be carried on in regard to universities because we had a list last year and I have n 1t heard of any report from you regarding any new additions on the campus or anywhere el se ? MR, MCLEAN: That will be in when it comes to capital bill. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Agricull ure and Conservation. MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, before getting into the agricultural estimates I should just like to say a few words in regard to agriculture in general and some of the changes that have been brought about and some of the changes in the department itself. As you all know, fa rms have grown larger and production efficiency has been improved and farming has become a more complex business than it has ever been bef ore. Some agricul tural expers describe this as a revol ution. It might be correct to call it such.

But in any event becuase of the changes, greater managerial skill and training or efficient use of farm resources, greater application of science in the age which experimentation and research provide, together with careful management of farm financ es have come about. It is a challenge to everyone in agriculture because of the technological advances and developments . It is entirely true that since 1953 farm prices have declined while the general level of prices of goods and services which, the farmer purchases, have continued to rise . And because of this you get what is known as the price squeeze.

Because of that we must increase our efforts in taking scientific and technical information to the farme r. We must increase our efforts in the conservation of our land and our forests and our water. We must increase our efforts in training our farm youth to become useful citizens whether on the farm or in the city. Most im portant of all , we must co-ordinate our various pol icies with respect to agriculture to provide for the orderly development of all phases of management. There must be therefore new agricultural policy .

The ultimate aim, of course, is to produce farm products of the highest quality at the lowest possible cost in order that we may com pete in the markets of the world.

In this department during the past year, we have largely tried to bring about six changes; we have tried to provide, firstly, adequate long -term credit faciliti es; secondly we have tried to bring about more efficient land use and soil conservation; thirdly, we have to bring about adequate water control and conservation; fourthly, we hope soon to introduce in Manitoba crop insurance and we are further encouraged by the fact that there is now a Federal Act going through the House of Commons; fifth ly, we have tried to in crease agricultural education; and sixth, probably we have tried to increase agricultural re search and experimentation.

Let me cover some of these matters. In the last Session of the Legislature , we did bring about agricultural credit and we brought forward

an Act which is at least the best Act so far as agricultural credit is concerned in Canada. Page 536 July 3rd, 1959.

(Mr. Willis cont'd) ..•. others are following along--even Saskatchewan now has

an Act. The Federal Government, too, has taken some note of what we have done. They have a new Act as well which I think will be useful. And because of the number of applications we have received, we know that we are going to fulfil! a much needed want in Agriculture. And that because of it, because of the high prices of machinery and of land, that there will be much borrowing from the Agricultural Credit Corporation. We tried to bring about secondly, efficient land use and soil conservation. That might even be considered together with adequate water control and conservation because they go to gether.

It must be apparent to those who have been in this country any length of time that there has been in the past a great deal of bad land used. When you realize the territories which we have within this province and they are represented here today, where in a large territo.ry one or two people live and struggle and sometimes die because of lack of nourishment--and when you have still land within the province which is sold for a dollar or two dollars an acre. People almost starve to death by trying to mamtain themselves on that land.

When you realize that governments in the past all alike have sold land to persons who went there, that they conferred on them no benefit and that as far as adequate land use in concerned, in many cases those people should be taken off that land and returned to land where they have a chance to make a living. And that we ought to do. It is most necessa ry, I recognized at once, that some people have a love of the land and no matter how bad their farm may be, it may be difficult to get them off.

In the territory from which I come in the Turtle Mountains, there were there in the' early days squatters and they took up their stand within the Turtle Mountains, then owned by the Federal Government. And then the Federal Government came to them and said "You're on our terri tory, please move off", and they came back every few months and they were still on that terri tory. Finally they said "We'll have to put you in jail if you don't move", and these good old hardy pioneers said "All right, we'll shoot it out with you".

They didn't shoot it out but they did a very smart thing and something which probably should be done in other places. They ac quired land close by which was better land than that land on which the squatters were squatting. And they exchanged those lands for the lands which the squatters had and they lived happily ever after. So there was no trouble. Something, perhaps, along those lines so far as land use in concerned must be taken into consideration at the present time in the Province of Mani toba.

But when you consider land use, of course, it means proper use or productive land or dinarily, and much is being done in regard to that. And we have increased our department so that there are more experts to go and tell you the proper use of your land. I have seen it on my own place recently, for all of us have waste land which we can cultivate and I have been getting rid of willows which were never any good for any purpose, turning over that land and putting it into permanent pasture under instruction from the Department.

Those of us who live near mountains, Turtle Mountains, some of yoti might call them hills but we would defend our selves in that regard. They do go up a few hundred feet. But there too each year, you have a run-off and because you have a run-off you have gullies. You have wasted land and you have water which lies there. That can be handled as well by. proper gully treatment which is now going on. The sowing of grasses, indeed, when water lies there sometimes you have alkali and therefore the expert come forward and they show you the proper type of grass to use to offset alkali and make that ground productive.

So land use has become more and more impor tant and at the present time, Ottawa is invest igating land use and we are employing additional men, carrying out additional surveys so that people now can find out if their land if being prop erly used or not. They don't need to waste their lives in trying to produce certain crops on the land which those lands will not produce. They can find out--they can get the answer. And so it has become more important. In regard to water conservation too, it has been set up in the Department of Agriculture.

The first time you will have some place, you will have when we pass the legislation which we tried to pass a few months ago unsucces sfully, because an election happened to intervene. But there will be a board of men who have spent their lives in the business to whom one can go in regard to any water problem. If it is an individual, he can go to that board, get technical advice, and probably, get some financial assistance to do the work which is necessary. If it is a municipality, it can likewise do that,

whereas in the past the municipalities would have a flood problem or a water problem went usually to the provincial government, normally to the July 3rd, 1959. Page 537

(Mr. Willis cont'd) .... highways branch to be told that they build highways, they didn't drain water off farmers' land. And so they went to the Drainage Board and they said, ''Well you're not in the drainage district, therefore you have--we can't help you. " In a number of cases too they went to the P. R. F. A. and they said to them too "You're not in the P. F. R. A. district", so there was no one to whom they could go. They got what was termed the "run around" and there were seven statutes in regard to water in three different departments.

When you have seven statutes in three departments that is worse than a three-ring circus. That becomes a seven-ring circus. By the time you are through you are so tired out that you decide thaUt's useless and you go home and wait for ·the water to be taken away by the sun.. But now .we· think that because of the new boai:d which will be set up, with a man as chairman who has had more experience in regard to drainage matters, a highclass engineer formerly assistant deputy minis ter of Public Works, Mr.

Griffith, who has prob ably had more experience in regard to drains than anyone else in Manitoba, he will be the chairman. The proper man, we think, in the proper place. But because land use comes into the picture as well there will be on the board Mr. John Parker. Don't get him mixed up with Jackie Parker, of Edmonton, We pay him less. But he is in charge of the Soils and Crops branch for the Province of Manitoba an excellent man who will be on the board as well.

And when the department of Mines and Natural Resources expect to get the assistant deputy minister, who has had special experience in regard to water control and consequently he will be able to give us the benefit of his knowledge again in regard to the Conservation Board under the Department of Agriculture.

Fourthly, you have brought down recently in Ottawa crop insurance, and while we don't know everything about the new Act as far as Ottawa is concerned, we do have copies of the Act, and it appears to give material assistance to any province that wants crop insurance by way of paying 20% of the premium costs, by way of paying 50% of the administration costs, by way of paying too a large share of the losses if they get to be too high. These are all helpful, and we in this government believe that because of this Act which we have been waiting for, we will be able to draw and draft

an Act which will co-operate with the Federal Statutes that under this system with the help of the Fe.deral Government, we will be able to bring in a bill in regard to crop insurance. We are hopeful and it depends upon the opposition quite a bit (Interj ection)- no you don't but you sometimes block it (Interjection) ... well, I don't know your mind you see, that's why 1 don't know who we're going to do but we're hopeful that you will see the bright side of things and that we may be able to bring it in. We at least are hopeful in regard to it. It has long been established by the so-called experts and those who have taken

part in Royal Commis sions in regard to crop insurance, that in general it was not feasible for a province to go alone. It would cost too much and therefore we needed assistance from some source or another and it would appear that we have a reasonable assistance from the Federal Government under the new Act which is now before the House of Commons. The fifth item of which I spoke of was agricultural education and we have introduced, and the previous government introduces bursaries for those who take the graduate course in agricul ture.

And we introduced provisions whereby we could give bursaries to those who take up the two year course and normally go back to the farm. In both cases if they stay afterwards a reasonable length of time within.the Province of Manitoba, it will cost them nothing. If they go back to the farm in the case of the bursaries on the two year term or if they enter into agri culture pursuits and stay within· the province in regards to the bursaries which go to those who are proceeding to a degree in agriculture.

Among other times when those who graduated in agriculture could expect but a small amount more than the foreman on their own farm. Those days are gone and I hope they have gone forever because now the graduate in agriculture is reasonably well paid. If you know of any who are unemployed send them around to us. They are being sought in various parts of the country and employment is reasonably sim ple for those who have had a reasonable good record as far as the university course is concerned.

For those who now graduate in agriculture are well paid and we pay our agric. reps. up to $7, 300. 00 a year which is still pretty good money and they have a car of their own and they perform a great and useful service. And sixthly, in regard to agricultural research and experimentation, we are co-operat ing with the University. And may I say in regard to Dean Weir, the Dean of Agriculture that Page 538 July 3rd, 1959.

(Mr. Willis cont'd) .... he is doing everything humanly possible to help us in finding solutions to our problems in agriculture, and that we could not hope for better co-operation than we are now receiving from the University. Confidentially the University says the same of us. A MEJYIBER: Hear ! Hear l MR. WILLIS: So that makes it unanimous. We are because we are giving to the Univer. sity, assistance which they have not received before . While it may be a Russian idea, we are planning with them on a five year basis in order that we may project reforms in Agriculture in Manitoba forward for five years from now.

That, we think, is the proper method of plan ning for agriculture and that we are doing. The estimates you will see as we have increased the estimates in agriculture by about 2 1/2 million dollars. We have brought in, of course, the new water control and conservation branch, and we have changed the name of the department- from Agriculture and Immigration, because we weren't actually bringing in any immigrants- from Agriculture and Immigration to Agriculture and Conservation. It's a change in reality. We too are decentralizing our offices so far as agriculture is concerned.

We will have two regional offices, one at Brandon and one at Dauphin. There we will have additional staff in the matter of an agricultural representative of course, and his assistant. There will be an exten sion farm management specialist at each place. There will be. an agricultural engineer at each place. There will be also be an agronomist, a livestock specialist, soil specialist and a home economist, both in Brandon and in Dauphin. They will be able to meet together regularly to discuss the problems in that area.

It will eliminate a great deal of long distance travelling, because at the present time wherever they go they have to go from Winnipeg. It will effect greater efficiency and it will effect greater co-ordination as far as services are concerned to rural people. That, we think, is a forward step in de-cen tralization, if it works well we'll probably increase the centralization and set up other branch offices, regional offices, as well. The Department of Soils and Crops branch has become increasingly important. Not only do t�ey conserve soil and control erosion, but they have many other functions as well.

They're in chargeof the variety of crops which we have; they teach the farmer crop rotations; they teach them the proper fertilizers to be used; they're introducing shelter belts on the farm; they show them pasture improvements of the type of which I've spoken for my own pasture. They teach them weed control, which is so necessary, and they are still of the opinion that in Mani toba because of lack of weed control, it costs every farmer on the average $1, OOO. 00 per year per farm, because of lack of weed control. And we hope to do something in regard to that.

At the moment as far as weed control is concerned throughout the municipalities, you'll have one municipality that has a good weed inspector, who knows his business, and you go to the next one and you'll find out that as far as they are concerned, there will be no inspection probably in that location. And then you go to the next municipality and they have one who doesn't under stand weeds. Consequently weed seeds blow every place and as a consequence it is quite in efficient.

So we hope to do something in regard to that as well and we 're looking forward to the day and we're co-operating with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and we look forward to the time when we will cover the province--people properly trained as far as weed control is concerned, preferably graduates of the Faculty of Agriculture so that with our help and com bining together a number of municipalities, maybe an ag-rep district may have proper cover age for weed control such as we have not had in the past.

And we have employed now, four additional technically trained specialists in crops, and in soils and in weeks. The Extension Service becomes increasingly important, and there is much still to be done.

We have increased our staff but we are still insufficient; and we look forward to the day when the ag-rep will have time, and he certainly hasn't had time in the past, when he will have time to go in to the indi vidual farmer and say to him ''I think I could help you to run your farm a little better and pos sibly to make a little more money. 11 I put in that last phrase because tha t's the Scottish touch which we think might get him entry into the farm and the farmer wouldn't just reach for his shot gun as soon as he came on the place.

And so, as and when we have sufficient ag-reps to given them time, because now they are worked very hard, we will be able to do many of those things, to discuss with them all the different problems in regard to agriculture. We have brought about the following additions to the staff as far as ag-reps are concerned; we have ap pointed two agricultural representatives to two new territories, we have appointed seven as sistant agricultural representatives, Brandon, Carman, Dauphin, Minnedosa, Portage La July 3rd, 1959. Page 539

(Mr. Willis cont'd) ..•• Prairie, and st. Pierre; we have two extension agricultural economists at Brandon and Dauphin; we have one additional agricultural engineer; we have employed an assistant entomologist; we have one regional co-o rdinator for south-eastern Manitoba, who is now stationed at Steinbach to try and do something in regard to that south-eastern part of the province of Manitoba, which has had so many difficulties in the past. The man who is down there and whom we think will do a good job, he now lives at Steinbach, Dr. Christianson, who is by way of being an expert in this particular line.

He comes from Gimli but don't hold that against him--! thought Dr. Johnson was here-- that was a lest remark. But he does come from a family of which I know of no other, where they have seven sons and they have seven Ph D's. Seven! A great family operating for agriculture pretty well right across Canada. We are for tunate, I think, that we have two Christianson brothers within the department. We have hired four additional district home economists--how long they will last we don't know. Normally on the average they have lasted 18 months before they married some farmer in the district.

We have also employed one additional home design specialist stationed here in this building. And so as far as extension is concerned it now brings a total of 36 agricultural representatives spread all over the province, seven assistant agricultural representatives, four agricultural engineers, three agricultural economists, four horticulturists, two entomologists, two 4-H Club specialists, and 18 home economists in fourteen different districts.

I want to say a word, and probably go into some detail, in regard to research and experimentation at the Faculty of Agriculture because they have carried on a great work for us and for you in that locality. Last year when the convention was here the Cerealists of the world, they were able to go out behind the Library at the University and see 500 different varieties of wheat, wheat from every coun try in the world.

And because of the job which I happened to have, I was chairman of a banquet which was given for these visitors who came from all over the world, the man on my right, who was one of the lecturers there, came from China .. At the dinner I didn't have much conversa tion with him because my Chinese is not very good. On my left was a man from Madrid, Spain. I had a fine conversation with him because he spoke good English and we discussed all the tech nicalities of bull fighting in Madrid, Spain.

I shall not try to expand that subject at the moment because all of us who are in politics are accused of that in any event and if I did so, you would think I was trying to advertise my good herd of cattle. And this is not the place to make a sale. A MEMBER: You're making one now. MR. WILLIS: Don't call it that.

We have been at the University, through our financial assistance to the University, we have been specializing there in rust and I assume that there is no one in this Chamber who wouldn't say that because of the experiments which they carried on there, that those who grow wheat are still in business and they wouldn't be if they had not carried on their experiments at the University of Manitoba, and get some of the answers in regard to rust.

They're trying to control, of course, grasshoppers; controlling weeds; they're investigating in regard to fertilizers and while I don't want to cover all of the subjects, of which there are 70 special projects that they are carrying on for us and for you, I want to mention a few. They are carrying on special experiments in barley breeding to develop a high yielding, strong straw, disease resisting variety of good quality. And some 175 to 200 varieties from the University's own program are being tested. Some very promising material has been deve loped already.

They are investigating in regard to corn breeding, for the maturity and cold tolerance are the most stressed features in the program. Good progress has been made in developing hybrid corn for silage purposes. In forage crop breeding, in alfalfa, for resistance to leaf and �tem diseases; in sweet clover to resist the weavel; breeding work with broomgrass and Russian wild rye is under way. In forage crop management for hay and pasture, in a num ber of grasses, clovers and legumes ; in oil seed crops, soya beans to strains more suitable to Manitoba conditions. Some strains are now in the advanced tests.

Rape seed, to develop an improved strain, crosses have been made among the best varities available. Sunflowers- dealing with the problems relating to the production and use of hybrid seed; weeds--the impor tance of research into methods of we'ed control is emphasized because of the fact that weeds . cost Manitoba farmers millions every year. Chemical control of wild oats--they think that they have a solution, the solution which they have so far is too expensive for general use on the ordinary farm, but they hope by mass p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 1st hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bf2af1d7f8e49110d2078ec35a4786342f2266b4

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