Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 3 (38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 3 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, November 24, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

63 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, November 24, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Highway 200 Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Highway 200 is paved from Winnipeg to the Canada-U. S. border except for approximately a 10- kilometre

section between highways 205 and 305 which remains unpaved. School buses, farm equip- ment, emergency vehicles and local traffic must travel on Highway 200 which is dangerous, if not completely impassable, during wet spring weather and other times of heavy rainfall. Due to unsafe conditions, many drivers look to alternate routes around this

section when possible and time permits. The condition of the gravel road can cause serious damage to all vehicles. Insufficient traffic counts are not truly reflective of the traffic volumes because users tend to find another route to avoid this section. Traffic counts done after spring seeding, during wet weather or during school recess are not indicative of traffic flows. Maintenance costs for unpaved highways are high and ongoing. It would be cost-effective to pave this section.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) consider paving Highway 200 between highways 205 and 305 to ensure a smooth, safe and uninterrupted use of Highway 200. Signed by Donat Alarie, Irene Alarie, Joyce Cassie and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Pension Benefits Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition.

These are the reasons for this petition: Pension benefits for thousands of Manitoba health care workers are being cut because the government has refused to support the front line health care workers in their desire to maintain their existing Health Care Employees' Pension Plan. The government is doubling the early retirement penalty to 6 percent a year from 3 percent. There will be no cost of living benefits for retirees in the foreseeable future, which means that inflation will erode retirees' pension cheques over time.

The government's refusal to support the existing pension plan will have a negative impact on hundreds of front line health care workers. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for front line health care workers by its decision to allow administrative costs in the regional health authorities to skyrocket by millions of dollars. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider redirecting administrative cost savings to front line health care workers.

To request the provincial government to treat front line health care workers with the respect they deserve, and to consider supporting the health care employees' pension plan by not cutting pension benefits.

64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 Signed by Elaine Saccucci, Julie Tabinc, M. Hawranik and others. * (13:35) Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.

Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold their government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by Merly Rogal, Carmen Juan and Ernesto Reyes. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table, in accordance with

section 28 of The Auditor General Act, the report of the Auditor General on the Investigation of the Maintenance Branch of the Manitoba Housing Authority. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the following reports: Advanced Education and Training Annual Report, 2003-2004; Manitoba Council on Post-Secondary Education Annual Report, 2003-2004; University of Manitoba Annual Financial Report, 2004; the University of Winnipeg Financial Statements for the year ended March 31, 2004; Brandon University Annual Financial Report for the year ended March 31, 2004; Red River College Annual Financial Report, 2003- 2004; Assiniboine Community College Annual Report, 2003-2004; Keewatin Community College Annual Report, 2003-2004; and Collège de Saint- Boniface Financial Statements for the year ended March 31, 2004.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 6–The Real Property Amendment Act Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that leave be given to introduce Bill 6, The Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biens réels, and that it be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Health, seco nded by the honourable A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l , t h a t B i l l 6 , T h e R e a l P r o p e r t y Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the minister responsible for that act, I would just tell members that the purpose of this act is to simplify the making of minor amendments to mortgages so that the cost and the speed with which those amendments can be made while respecting the rights of all parties to them will be improved. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (13:40) Speaker's Statement Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have the six individuals who were appointed to the Manitoba Legislative Internship Program for 2004-2005 year.

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 65 In accordance with established practice, three interns were assigned to the government caucus and three to the official opposition caucus. Their term of employment is 10 months, and they will be performing a variety of research and other tasks for private members. These interns commenced their assignments in September and will complete them in June. They are, working with the government caucus: Martin Frigo of the University of Manitoba, Jonathan Mays of the University of Winnipeg and Alexandra Miller of the University of Manitoba.

Working with the caucus of the official opposition: Tara Baxter of the University of Manitoba, Kerri Lee Holland of Brandon University and Miles Morgan of the University of Winnipeg. Copies of their biographies have been distributed to members. The interns are accompanied by Professor Friesen. She looks after the academic portion of the internship. The administration of the program is carried out by our Clerk, Ms. Patricia Chaychuk. The caucus representatives on the Intern- ship Administration Committee are the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale ) and the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou).

I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of all members to congratulate the interns on their appointment to the program and hope that they will have a very interesting and successful year with the Assembly. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: We have seated in the public gallery from Applied Linguistics Centre 11 visitors under the direction of Mrs. Ruth Klippenstein. This group is located in the constitu ency of the honourable Member for Minto (Mr. Swan). Also in the public gallery from Carpathia School we have 19 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Dennis McIntosh.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Child Poverty Reduction Strategy Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today the Manitoba Child Poverty Report Card was released and in it there are some very disturbing numbers. One in six children in Canada is living in poverty; one in five in Manitoba is living in poverty. Mr. Speaker, that number is 53 000 children living in Manitoba are living in poverty.

Manitoba has fallen to the second highest rate of children living in poverty, not because the number has gone down but because Newfoundland and Labrador's number has gone up. Mr. Speaker, this Premier is now into his sixth year of a mandate and he has done nothing to reduce the child poverty state here in the province of Manitoba. As was requested today, could the Premier say when he is going to bring a strategy forward to deal with a very serious issue, that issue being child poverty in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, many of our friends and neighbours are going to be out here this evening with a vigil to support democracy in Ukraine. I know that some of our members will be at the AMM convention and others will be out at the vigil tonight. I think when we cherish democracy in this Chamber, I think we want to again pledge ourselves to democracy for the people of Ukraine and wish them well here this evening. Mr. Speaker, the child poverty rate was some 23 percent in 1999. It is 20 percent this year, or 2002 rather, the year that this study is released and reporting on.

Any 1 percent is obviously unaccept- able to all of us in this Chamber and all of us in this community. Some of the recommendations that were made by us in opposition and recommendations we implemented in government; to raise the minimum wage, to create employment for individuals that would be employable, to have a strategy to end the clawback of the child poverty benefit, we have implemented all of those recommendations, most of them, well, certainly the minimum wage, and others were opposed by members opposite.

66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 * (13:45) We have also introduced the Healthy Baby program, the first one in Canada, that we feel will have some impact, but obviously, we accept the challenge of child poverty in Canada and the challenge of child poverty in Manitoba as a challenge for our government. We accept that responsibility, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House, I think, are very much in agreement that the significance of what took place in Ukraine is very important to democracy.

However, I think the House frankly is embarrassed that the government did not see the significance of it to make a ministerial statement. Mr. Speaker, the fact of life is that this Premier has now been the Premier of the province for getting on six years. During that time, despite all of the political rhetoric and the political spin, according to the Manitoba Child Poverty Report Card, things are not getting better. Mr. Speaker, some 10 years ago at Winnipeg Harvest they were providing food to some 5500 children. Today that number, under this Premier's watch, has grown to 17 000 children.

We know that Winnipeg Harvest provides snacks and meals for some 100 schools and community centres. The simple question to this First Minister is this: Programs that he talks about are not working as was asked for by the Manitoba Child Poverty Report Card organization, as they are asking for. When will this First Minister put in a strategic plan to ensure that child poverty in Manitoba is looked into? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, members opposite will recall that the nutrition bene fits for babies were cut by the former government.

Members will know that Manitoba is one of only two provinces in Canada that has reinstated the child poverty clawback that took place under members opposite. We accept the fact that the child poverty rate has only gone down from 23 percent to 20 percent since 1999. We think any percent is unacceptable in our society. We accept the responsibility. Many of the measures recommended to us by the coalition that released this report, we have imple- mented over our first term in government. The child benefit, Mr. Speaker, was clawed back by members opposite, and we have reinstated it, one of only two provinces.

The nutrition benefits for babies, we have introduced, in fact, a prenatal program for families. We have introduced an affordable housing program in the inner city, both in Brandon, Winnipeg, in Thompson. We have brought in expansion of child care which has also been recommended to the government. We are continuing to listen to the people on the front lines in terms of implementing the recommen- dations that they made to us. You will find that recommendations like increasing the minimum wage on a regular basis, opposed by members opposite, clawed back by members opposite, reinstated by us, Mr. Speaker.

Having said that, none of us can rest until this rate is much lower. Mr. Speaker: Order. We all understand the rules in the House about exhibits. We all understand that. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition is using his pamphlet to raise questions, but other members, I would kindly ask you to put them on your desk and keep them there. Mr. Murray: Again, as it says in this report card released today, Manitoba has had the highest percentage of households with children chronically poor or consistently poor for six years. Mr. Speaker, 22 000 children in Manitoba have been poor for the last six years.

This Premier tries to talk a good game, and he tries to talk about all of the programs that he thinks are working, but the facts as stated in this report card are they are not working. He has tried to make a difference and he has failed. I would like to make reference to the Public Accounts 2003-2004 Supplementary Information. In it, Mr. Speaker, it says that the Department of Industry has spent some $17,139 U.S. dollars on green classic limousines in Atlanta, Georgia.

We have seen million-dollar toilets, we see money being spent on sandwich factories, we see money being spent on laundry facilities, we see contracts being let to towing companies with ties to the Hells Angels, we see millions of dollars being wasted on Hydra House. When is this Premier going to get his spending under control and deal with the issue of child poverty in Manitoba? * (13:50)

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 67 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we saw the nutrition rates for babies cut by some 20 percent in the 1995-96 budget. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We saw the members opposite take a $14-million investment in the child benefit, and what did they do with it? They clawed it back. It took us four years to reinstate that child benefit. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members that we have guests in the gallery, and we have the viewing public. They came all the way down here to be able to hear the questions and the answers, and I would ask the co- operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: It took us four years to reinstate the clawback that was made by members opposite. It took us four years, from our 2000 budget to 2004, to reinstate the child benefit that was provided by the federal government and, in an unbelievable measure, clawed back by the former government. Now, we accept the fact. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order. If members wish to have a conversation, I see two loges that are empty. You are more than welcome to use them, because I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers in case there is a breach of a rule. I am sure each and every one of you would expect me to call that and make a ruling on it, but if I cannot hear it; I need the co- operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we are aware that the rate has gone from 1999 at 23 percent down to over 20 percent. As I said before, any percent is unacceptable to this government.

We absolutely are committed and responsible for continuing to invest prenatally, early childhood, right throughout the system to do everything we can to reduce the number of children living in poverty. We accept that responsibility and we accept the report card today, and the actions we have taken since that report card has been issued. Physician Resources Pediatrician Shortage (Brandon) Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Over the last two days we have seen the Minister of Health make a serious blunder regarding the diabetes strategy.

We have also seen him make a serious blunder when he told people in Brandon to put their best foot forward and solve their own pediatrician shortage. I would like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us what he is going to do to help correct the pediatrician shortage in Brandon so that high risk pregnant moms and sick children do not have to be rushed to Winnipeg to see a doctor? When is he going to end highway medicine? * (13:55) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, we are very proud of the fact that during our time in office we have put 167 million new dollars into the Brandon RHA, including approximately $70 million in new capital and new equipment for that new acility. f Mr. Speaker, I had a chance to tour that new facility last week and it is spectacular. I want to say that this week there have been no transfers from Brandon because we have been successful in getting a pediatrician from Winnipeg to cover some of the coverage that is required to keep the pediatrician available for all high-risk pregnancies and births in Brandon.

We will continue to work very closely with Brandon, both in the short term to solve the problem and in the longer term to make sure there are enough pediatricians to provide the quality health care that people in Brandon deserve and will have under this government. Health Care Services Surgery Waiting List (Brandon) Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): The people of Brandon feel quite insulted that this minister did not even make an appear ance in Brandon until one month into the crisis of a pediatrician shortage. He can stand here and say all he wants about what he is doing.

The people in Brandon do not agree with him.

68 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 Also, Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Health has allowed the surgical waiting list in Brandon to skyrocket from 900 in 1999 to over 2000 today, and that is an all-time-high waiting list for surgery in Brandon. I would like to ask this Minister of Health this: Why is he not providing help immediately to bring down that waiting list? Why has he told them they have to wait until April? He is just swimming in new money, and he is telling the people of southwestern Manitoba that they cannot have that surgical waiting list dealt with until April. Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Health): First of all, Mr. Speaker, there was no integrated waiting list in 1999. There were no wait lis ts for surgery that were integrated, so that number is not a comparable number. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, what was done was to add together everything possible. Now in Brandon many more things are possible than there were in 1999. For example, we opened a new MRI. We opened a new critical diagnostic facility. There is new CT scanning equipment in Brandon. There is new ultrasound scanning equipment.

What is happening is people in Brandon who used to be on Winnipeg's waiting lists are now in Brandon getting the service that they dese rve and need. That is why there are waiting lists in Brandon, getting the treatment from the MRI, from the CT scans opened this early summer, late spring, and providing quality service to the citizens of Westman. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the minister can say what he likes about how wonderful he thinks that things are in Brandon, but the fact of it is there is a very serious pediatrician shortage there that is causing a crisis for moms and babies.

That surgical waiting list is at an all-time high and this minister did not even go to Brandon to help address this situation and instead told Brandon, "Put your best foot forward." I would like to ask this minister this: When is he going to put his best foot forward and do the right thing for the people of southwestern Manitoba, get his act together, provide le adership on these issues and do his job? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, last Wednesday I spent a full half-day in Brandon meeting with doctors, meeting with the regional board, meeting with the president and the chair. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members that the clock is ticking, and we are trying to get as many questions and answers in. Also, when a Speaker is standing all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I ask the co-operation of honourable members. Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, I have been delighted to be in Burntwood. I have been in The Pas. I have been in southeast Manitoba. I have been in Portage la Prairie. I have been minister for about five and a half weeks, and I intend to be in all regions supporting all of their recruitment efforts.

I would also remind members opposite that we built the Brandon centre which is a state-of-the-art centre with state-of-the-art equipment that was promised seven times. It was built by this government. * (14:00) Livestock Slaughter Facility Funding Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, we are now 555 days into the BSE crisis; 555 days of closed borders. It is evident that Manitoba needs a major slaughtering plant facility of its own whether the border is open or not. We are given to understand the federal government is prepared to commit major amounts of money to build such a facility.

Has the Minister of Agriculture and her govern- ment had any discussions to date with the federal ministers on the partnering of a building of a slaughter plant in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the member is now starting to talk about the importance of investing in slaughter capacity when he had said last year that it was not a good idea to invest in slaughter capacity. I can tell you that I have raised this issue with the federal minister many times.

It was at Manitoba's suggestion that the federal government came forward with a proposal that there would be a loan-loss provision put in place. We have been lobbying the federal government to put assistance into place for slaughter capacity in this province. We have not had a firm commitment that they will, but it has been on

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 69 our agenda, and I have raised it many times with the federal minister. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, it is quite evident by the comments that the minister has made that she has not yet met with any of her federal counterparts to discuss the building of a major plant in this province. Mr. Speaker, on September 29, our leader, Mr. Stuart Murray, and our caucus announced– Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members that when addressing another member in the House it is by constituency or the portfolios they hold. Mr. Penner: Thank you very much.

We are very proud of our Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray). On September 9, our Leader of the Opposition announced a five-point BSE recovery plan costing some $72 million. Mr. Speaker, $40 million would increase the slaughter capacity, $2 million for feasibility studies, $10 million to upgrade small plants and $20 million as a cash advance program that would see the establishment and the maintenance of that herd of cattle in this province. This would be covered by the money that is left over from the $180 million that the minister and her government have announced constantly.

Is this government now prepared to partner with the federal government, utilize and build a state-of- the-art plant in the province of Manitoba to facilitate the five-hundred-and-some-odd-thousand head of cattle that would be able to go to that slaughter plant every year in this province? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, in the member's comments where he said that I have not raised the issue, I guess he was not listening to my first answer because I told him very clearly that I have raised the issue, and this issue was on the federal-provincial ministers' meeting.

It was at Manitoba's request that the federal government came forward with a loan- loss provision. The member talks about putting money into plants. He does not seem to realize that we have made a commitment to Rancher's Choice, Mr. Speaker, and they are very happy with the investment that we are prepared to make in that plant. Other people are looking at slaughter capacity. I do not know whether the member heard there is a group at Neepawa that is looking at a slaughter facility. There are other people who are looking at slaughter facilities for other species.

Our government is definitely committed to slaughter capacity in this province. Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, it is very obvious to producers that the government has used Rancher's Choice to keep the continuing debate and discussion going on building a plant when, in fact, twice the government has used a poison pill to stop the construction and stall the processing facility in this province. The first time it was a required commitment by the producers to raise $3.5 million, and the government knew that farmers did not have any money to put into this, invest in this plant and, therefore, to stop the construction.

The second one was using a second poison pill to require producers to cont ract the delivery of their culled cows and culled bulls without a proper business plan being presented to the producers to accommodate and give them a sufficient reason to believe that this processing plant could, in fact, be maintained and earn a profit to give them some return. Will the minister today agree that this processing plant has been used as a discussion item only to keep them discussing till the border is open? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot believe that the member opposite is so disrespectful of the farmers of Manitoba, and in particular, the group of people who have worked very hard to get Rancher's Choice forward. Our government has worked with them. Our government has put funds in place with them. It was the producers that came to us and said, "We will make a commitment." The producers said they would make a commitment, and asked us to support them, and we did.

It was the producers that said they would commit a supply, and I cannot believe that the member opposite would consider investing in a plant without an assurance of a supply of animals coming through it. He does not understand what is happening. He has absolutely no respect for the people in charge of Rancher's Choice. Hydra House Internal Report Release Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this side of the House has

70 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 been asking for a copy of this government's financial review of Hydra House. We have been asking for that document. We have asked for it through Public Accounts. We have asked for it by letter that we sent to the Premier. We asked for it by a letter that we sent to the minister. We have asked for it as a letter through the media. Mr. Speaker, this morning on CJOB the Premier said that he has given every piece that has been requested by the opposition through Public Accounts, every piece of information that has been asked for. Mr.

Speaker, I do not have a copy of the financial review of Hydra House. I wonder if the Premier could table it. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is too bad we did not meet in Public Accounts Committee last night like we offered, and I would offer again to have the Public Accounts Committee of the Legislature meet tomorrow. Members obviously do not want to meet. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would suggest to honourable members, instead of shouting back and forth, if they would like to have a discussion in the loge, they would probably be able to hear each other a lot better.

You are more than welcome to use the loge if members wish to have a conversation. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader was up on a point of order? Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. It seems that the Premier is developing another bad habit. Yesterday the Premier said that we could have a Public Accounts Committee meeting last night.

Well, I waited in my office for a signal from the House Leader that indeed the Public Accounts meeting would be called, because according to the rules of the House and the Legislature, the Clerk needs to be notified by the House Leader that, indeed, a Public Accounts meeting is called. Mr. Speaker, I am going to challenge the Premier to agree that we could move ahead with a Public Accounts meeting very soon, even tomorrow evening, and allow the Chair who is the Member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer) to at least be able to invite the required witnesses that need to appear before Public Accounts. * (14:10) Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, just to clarify the offer that was made by myself yesterday in the House. Mr. Speaker, an offer was made to the opposition to have Public Accounts Committee meet last night in order to have questions and answers to the two former ministers. Indeed, if the current Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick) is wanted there, we were prepared to have that meeting last night, but we did not get an answer. That was an offer made, and that offer remains. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members that negotiations should not be taking place on the floor of the Legislature. Also, points of orders and privileges are only to be raised to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or a departure from our Manitoba practices. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, do you have something new to add to the point of order? Mr. Derkach: I certainly do, Mr. Speaker. The protocol, I think, that is followed in order to advise individuals who have to appear before Public Accounts is that the Cler k's office is notified of a Public Accounts meeting.

In that way the Auditor General's office can be notified to appear before Public Accounts. Staff from the departments can be notified to appear before Public Accounts. Mr. Speaker, I have never received a letter or any memo from the Clerk's office, nor from the Government House Leader, that there would be a Public Accounts meeting last night. I am offering the Government House Leader th at we are prepared to even go ahead with Public A ccounts this afternoon if the proper personnel can be notified and the proper witnesses can be notified to appear before Public Accounts.

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 71 We are prepared to go ahead with it. We are not stalling, Mr. Speaker. We want to move ahead. It is the government that is trying to hide this thing under the carpet. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, do you have anything new to add to the point of order? Mr. Mackintosh: Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how that is a point of order. The opposition wants to go and have an argument about rules in the Public Accounts Committee. The Rules Committee is scheduled to meet next week on the issue of Public Accounts procedures.

What we are saying is to expedite this matter, to have questions and answers fairly asked and answered, we were prepared to meet last night, we are prepared to meet this week. That offer was made. If there is an agreement that we have a committee meeting with the former ministers and indeed the current minister, we have a deal and the rules are on for next week. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would suggest to the House leaders that they do their negotiations among themselves, and on a point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I recall the Leader of the Opposition saying that the government would not even deal with this matter because the Auditor's Report has to be dealt with only after it is tabled in the House. We did deal with it. I remember the Leader of the Opposition saying that the minister responsible would not be available to the committee. She was available to the committee. Then I remember the Leader of the Opposition saying the former minister would not be available to the Public Accounts Committee.

Well, we want both former ministers that are part of the audit investigation availabl e to the Public Accounts Committee. We have pledged to do that. We continue to pledge to do that, Mr. Speaker, and we will do that just to demonstrate our commitment to have ministerial accountability starting when the audit began in 1997 on to the present scope of the investigation. We are ready to go. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, unfort unately I have to rise on another point of order because the Premier should know what the ru les of the House and the rules of the Legislature are, and it is the government that calls the Public Accounts Committee. Now, Mr. Speaker, in order to call a Public Accounts Committee, the Clerk's office needs to be notified, and so does the Auditor General's office need to be notified. We are ready to go to Public Accounts. I would commit on behalf of this caucus we are ready to go with it today, tonight, or whenever the notice is given and whenever the meeting is called.

It is up to the government to call the meeting. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on that same point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: We will make it clear once again, Mr. Speaker. We are prepared to have a Public Accounts Committee meeting, not to have a bun fight over rules. We want to use the time of the Public Accounts Committee wisely and have questions and answers of the appropriate ministers while the procedures are dealt with in the appropriate form, which is the Rules Committee. We are prepared to do that. If they say yes, let us get the ministers before the Public Accounts Committee. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Oppo sition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, every member in this Chamber, every member of the media gallery, knows we requested the financial review on Hydra House that the government did, and every member in this House knows, and every member of the media knows, that was not provided. Despite that, on radio today, this Premier said to all Manitobans that he and his government have provided all the pieces of information that were asked by the opposition.

72 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 This issue that deals with vulnerable people in our society is a very serious issue. I am going to be very careful with what I say because I know the word "liar" is unparliamentary but I will say this. As the Premier has said, "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck." I am simply asking this Premier this: What is he trying to hide? Why is it when we ask for the report, we are told we cannot have it?

He knows we do not have it, and why does he go on radio and say, "We have given everything they have asked for?" What is he trying to hide? Why does he not stand up and apologize and tell the truth? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we certainly want to go to the Public Accounts Committee, and I am saying that publicly because I am tired of the Leader of the Opposition misrepresenting the facts. Last night, the Leader of the Opposition said, and I quote, "We want Manitobans to know that under the Doer govern- ment, $1.4 million went to toys and not to proper care." That is absolutely false.

I will table the October 20, 1995, home renovation estimates for the hot tubs the Leader of the Opposition was dealing with. Let us get the former minister and the former, former minister where the audit makes its conclu- sions. Let us get the two ministers where this audit covers. Let us get to the Public Accounts Committee and let us stop playing games. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that all the Premier has to do is tell his House Leader to call the meeting. That is their responsibility.

They can stand up and showcase in this place, provide window dressing as they love to do as a government, but all they have to do then is say what they are going to do instead of standing up here and showboating. This is a very serious issue. We have heard from this First Minister that the truth shall set you free. We have heard from this First Minister saying they cannot handle the truth. Well, he is wrong and he talks about accountability. Manitobans want accountability from their First Minister. They want to feel proud of their First Minister.

They do not want a First Minister who says one thing in this House and then says something completely different for the people of Manitoba. Show some accountability and do the right thing. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Leader of the Opposition was factually incorrect. He makes state- ments about this government that were factually incorrect: the Cadillacs, the Audis, the donations to private schools, the estimates in 1995 for the hot tubs. The fact that he was trying to put that on our administration is factually wrong. The former minister should be before Public Accounts and the former, former minister.

We are ready to go. Hydra House Internal Report Release Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it would all be solved if the government would simply follow the directives the Auditor General has given us regarding Public Accounts and allow us to call witnesses. We are getting more and more frustrated with the issue of financial mismanagement of Hydra House. The Doer government continues to stonewall on this issue. In July of 2002, we had the former minister, the now-Minister of Health (Mr. Sale), tell us we have made all the normal and some quite extraordinary checks into the issue.

Then in July of 2004, we have the Premier saying, "We obviously missed the issue of financial accountability." We go to Public Accounts, we asked the Minister of Family Services for the financial report and she says, and I quote, "I will take that request and any others as to the nature of the document that we are discussing under advisement." The Premier then goes on the radio and says, "We will give them anything they ask for." Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Housing and Family Services to do the right thing today.

Simply table the report that her First Minister had said she would give to the committee. Table it in the House today, now. * (14:20) Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, members opposite are trying to create a belief that we are not coming forward with information. I would like to correct that record. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and I need to be able to hear the answers.

We still have time left in Question Period and whoever wishes to have an opportunity will get their chance, but we can only en tertain one question at a time and one answer at a time. So I ask the co- operation of all honourable members. Ms. Melnick: We, in fact, gave full access to all information to the Auditor General. The opposition

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 73 asked for Public Accounts meetings. We appeared at those meetings. For the first time, although unprece- dented in the history of Manitoba, I, as the current minister, appeared at the Public Accounts meetings. We have agreed that our former minister would appear at the Public Accounts meetings. Also, during the Public Accounts meeting, I, as the current minister, tabled the CARE review on Hydra House. That was done in the department. I undertook to provide additional information about the financial review of Hydra House in 2000 and 2001 at that meeting.

When the date is set for the next Public Accounts meeting, I will undertake to get that information to the members of Public Accounts as I agreed to do in the last meeting. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, we met at Public Accounts on September 8. When I asked the minister why will the minister not release a document to the Public Accounts Committee, her answer, and I quote, "Briefing notes are not released to the general public.

Briefing notes are of a highly sensitive nature and would not be released." When I asked her again, I quote, "I will have to take that request under advisement." I asked her again: "I will get back to you on that as soon as I can." Time after time after time, she stonewalled that committee. Her Premier then goes out and tells the public, "We will give them everything we want." Come clean. Give us everything we want. Give us the financial document today. Ms. Melnick: Again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to clarify the misunderstanding that has been presented by the opposition.

When I said I would provide the information, it was to the Public Accounts Committee, not to the member opposite personally. When a date is set for th e next Public Accounts meeting, I will provide the information to all members of Public Accounts. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, again stonewalling from the government. The Premier on September 20: "We do not have any difficulty with the truth, believe me." Well, let us have the truth then, sir. Let us have it. Again, on September 21, and I quote, from the Premier of the province– Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot even hear the question.

I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. I think I have been up about 20 times in this Question Period, and I do not think I should have to do that. We have the viewing public. We have guests in the gallery and all members. We know that decorum is very important in this House. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I remind the minister that she has minist erial responsibility as is indicated by her Premier.

We, on the opposition, are simply getting bounced around like a ping-pong ball from the Premier to the minister to the House Leader, who will not call P ublic Accounts, and back to the minister. We want the information. I do not want it as an individual. Every member of this House has a right to that information. Every person in Manitoba has a right to know what is in that file. Do the right thing, table it today. Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, I think we have all agreed it is time to set a date for the next Public Accounts meeting.

I look forward to the opposition's commitment to that and their co-operation in setting the date. When the date is set for the next Public Accounts meeting, I will provide the information that I undertook to provide to each member of the Public Accounts Committee when the date is set. Hydra House Internal Report Release Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe the procedure that government is undertaking to stonewall the information on Hydra House. It would not be nearly as bad if we did not have the Premier (Mr.

Doer) going on public airwaves and saying, "They have got all the infor- mation." The implication is that we are somehow just not telling the truth about the availability of the information. Then we have the minister who repeated again just now that the information could be provided to the committee, the very information that she has denied for months, the key to understanding what probably occurred during the time of the review that they did shortly after coming into government. The

74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 real problem here is they knew there was a problem, and they continued to do business as normal. Again I ask this minister this: Will she be prepared to table that information on the financial review for this House? The House can ask for that information, and I do not believe that it is in the best interests of the public that she continues to refuse it. Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I thought the acoustics in the House we re better than they apparently are.

Perhaps they are good over here and maybe not so good down there. I will repeat again for all members opposite that when a date is set for the next Public Accounts Committee, I will provide the information I have undertaken to provide to the Public Accounts Committee. We need the date to be set. I will be very happy to provide that information to each and every member of the Public Accounts Committee then. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I have not been spoken to in that manner since Grade 6. This is a very serious issue. This minister has just led the House to believe that she is not going to table the information.

I am asking one more time: Will she table that financial information for the House now? Ms. Melnick: The information will be provided to each member of the Public Accounts Committee when a date is set for the next meeting. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Before I call members' statements, I would just like to draw the attention of honourable members to the loge to my left. I would like to introduce Mr. Harry Enns who is a former member for Lakeside. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I rise with some misgivings. Mr. Speaker: Order. Could you clarify the reason for rising? Mr. Cummings: I rise on a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker: Okay, the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), on a matter of privilege. Mr. Cummings: As I was about to say, Mr. Speaker, it is with some misgivings that I rise on a matter of privilege because I recognize it as a serious issue. That is why on this side we have taken great care today to try and get the Minister responsible for Family Services (Ms.

Melnick) to clearly understand that we expect, and the public has every right to expect, that she would table the piece of financial information that we are seeking. I wish to make the case, Mr. Speaker, that my privileges as a member of this House have been breached by the actions of this minister, and by the actions of the government which I believe supports what I consider her unexplainable intentions in the way she is handling this file. As an opposition, we have a right to ask questions about information that is pertinent to public affairs.

We have the right to ask questions about information that is pertinent to the management of public dollars. We have a right to expect that the government would provide fair answers.

They can choose not to answer if they so desire, and that appears to be the desire of this government, that they are refusing to answer. * (14:30) But what is happening, and the reason I am standing before you at this moment, is that, while they refuse to provide th at information for this House, they are saying, "But there is another way that we will provide it." While I have been in this House for a long time, I am quite surprised that the current government would choose the tack that they could ignore a legitimate request in the House, then indicate they are quite prepared to release the information in another form.

Regardless if that form is a committee of this House or not, the House should be able to expect that the information that they are requesting would be provided in the House rather than in another form, particularly when that is very specifically asked for in this Chamber.

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 75 My experience in the House would always indicate that the Chamber can ask, government can refuse, but then to refuse and say that they will do it in some other way makes no sense and is an affront to the rights and privileges of the members of this Legislature. It is an affront to the taxpayers of this province. If the information, for several months, was unavailable from this government, unavailable from this minister, one can only conclude that they were protecting the interests of someone that might actually know the answer to the questions.

We will leave that to decide when we receive the information, but I would like to move, seconded by the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that this question be referred to the Committee on Legislative Affairs and be reported back to this House as soon as is reasonably possible. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing any other members to speak, I would remind the House that contributions at this time by honourable members are to be limited to strictly relevant comments as to whether the alleged matter of privilege has been raised at the earliest opportunity and whether a prima facie case has been established. Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the issue of timing is not of concern; the issue is whether there is a prima facie matter of privilege. Of course, privilege deals with the very basic rights of members of this House to perform as members. I would make the argument that not only is this not a matter of privilege, it is not even a point of order. Questions can be asked of the government and answers are not, as a rule, required to be provided. Similarly, papers or documents can be requested but cannot be compelled as a result of opposition questions. So it is not a privilege nor an order.

In fact, if we had met last night and had the ministerial questions and answers in Public Accounts Committee, the whole matter would be moot, but the minister has clearly indicated that she is prepared to respect the role of Public Accounts Committee. Mr. Speaker, I know the opposition. They want to order civil servants, with one notable exception. Indeed, I understand private citizens before the Public Accounts Committee and have a dispute there about rules. The issue of the rules is properly dealt with on a study basis by the rules committee and then this House.

If we are going to serve the public interest, I think it is important that the Public Accounts Committee meet, and have as agreement questions and answers of the ministers, the current minister and two former ministers. We think that is the way to move this along while simultaneously the issue of procedures is deal t with carefully. That is our proposal. Surely the opposition sees the value of moving to Public Accounts Committee as early as this week.

We certainly are prepared to accom- modate schedules to ensure that the public interest is served by those kinds of questions and answers and in the spirit of ministerial accountability. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): I rise on this matter of privilege because I believe this is a very serious matter. The reason I believe it is a serious matter is that if, in fact, this matter goes unresolved, this sets a very dangerous precedent in the Legislature of this province. Mr. Speaker, I believe the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr.

Cummings) stood on his feet and raised the issue very carefully with respect to information that is available that he requested the minister to table in the House. The minister acknowledged she had the information, but she said she will not provide it to the House, but she will provide it in another form. Now, Mr. Speaker, the rules, the practices of this province, the rules of this province are very clear. Members of this Legislature are entitled to infor- mation before that information is tabled in any other form.

The minister, being new, may not know that, but I recall a day when information was shared with the public before it was tabled here in the House, and the minister got him or herself in fairly deep and hot water because of that. Mr. Speaker, this is a breach and an affront not only to the Legislature of this province. but it is a breach of the privilege of each and every member in this House.

When a minister, and I see the minister is leaving, but when the minister of the House does not table information in this House that she has acknowledged she has and says that she will only provide it in another form, that is a breach of the privileges of each and every member in this Legislature. Also, it is an affront to the democratic processes we respect and it is an affront to all Manitobans. We have heard contradictory statements from the Premier, from the minister, from the former minister.

76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 The Premier says on radio that we have the information. The minister acknowledges that we do not have the information. The former minister says that everything was fine with Hydra House. The public has a right to know the correct answers to the questions that are being posed. We are here representing Manitobans. This is a serious forum. This is a serious task. To take it lightly is an insult to Manitobans, and that is what is happening by the government. They are starting to operate like an autocracy.

Democratic process is being ignored and is being shunned by this government. Mr. Speaker, I refer even to the calling of the Public Accounts Committee. The minister knows, the House Leader knows, that if he wants to call the Public Accounts Committee, he stands in his place while the House is sitting and says the Committee on Public Accounts will meet at such and such a time in such and such a room today or tomorrow or whenever. We are still aw aiting that announcement and that notice. Now any minister can say and the Premier (Mr.

Doer), very fl ippantly, says, "Well, we will have a Public Accounts Committee tonight." Has the Auditor been notified? Has the opposition committee been notified? Has the Chair of the committee been notified? An Honourable Member: How about the Clerk? Mr. Derkach: I am going to leave the Clerk and your office out of it, Mr . Speaker, because you are just servants of the Legislature and, indeed, you will do what is asked of you by the proper processes. But what I am talking about is we have a practice in this province. We have a process in this province.

We have a respected democratic obligation to the people of this province. The minister today has transgressed one of the basic and fundamental rules of democracy and of this Legislature. She has refused to provide information that she acknowledges she has to this House, Mr. Speaker. Now the minister, the former Minister of Health and now the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak), who should know much better, is saying I am wrong. I am not wrong, Mr. Speaker. The truth is, and he cannot lie about this, because the truth is that she has the information at hand. She said so.

She refused to table it in the House today. She says, "I will give it to individuals of a particular committee." Mr. Speaker, you cannot do that. An Honourable Member: No. * (14:40) Mr. Derkach: Now the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) says you can. Yes, if you are operating like they do in the Soviet Union and they do in Ukraine right now, you will do that. But, if you are operating in a democracy, you cannot do that. I am talking about the fundamental principles of demo- cracy here. I feel that they have been transgressed. The minister has breached a very basic fundamental of freedom and democracy today.

I might get a little emotional about this, but Manitobans should get emotional about this issue, because you cannot operate like a Communist dictatorship in here. There is no room for it. This is not a Third World country. This is not a Third World province. We have rights and obligations. We have a charter. We operate under a democracy. A demo- cracy respected by you and me and all of Manitoba. Today is a dark day in the democracy of this province and in this Legislature. This is not a trivial issue. Regardless of how the Province wants to treat this, this is a very, very serious issue.

That is why the motion was made in a very earnest way. This matter is so fundamental, and has got me upset personally but also as a legislator. If I have used language that is unparliamentary, I certainly apologize for that. But I am passionate about this, because we have seen suppression in other countries. We have seen what suppression does to people. The Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) and I, whose heritage is from the same country, should have some sensitivity about this issue, because we see what is happening in the country where our ancestors came from today, where democracy is being suppressed by some powerful and unworthy individuals who will choose to do it their way. When a minister acknowledges that she has important information that can and should be shared with all Manitobans and in this House but refuses to do that and has no grounds to hold that information private, then I think we have a serious issue on our hands. It is for that reason that I ask you, as Speaker

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 77 of this House, to very seriously examine this matter and to ensure that this matter gets its proper due diligence and that this matter does go to the Committee on Legislative Affairs and is dealt with at that forum and be reported back to this Legislature. I thank you for your time, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing any other members, there are two issues that I want to deal with the honourable Opposition House Leader (Mr. Derkach). I just wanted to clear them up.

Two issues I was going to raise with you, sir, was making a reference of members present or not, or the absence of members. The other was the language about "cannot lie about this." It was very, very close. I was going to give you a caution on that, sir, but you have already offered your apology in your speech. I accept it. I just wanted to let all honourable members know that we are not to make reference of the presence or absence of any honourable members, and I caution all members to pick your words very carefully. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to reiterate– Mr. Speaker: I am sorry. I gave you a promotion. I should have made reference to the Official Opposition House Leader. I addressed you as the Leader of the Official Opposition. Sorry about that. Mr. Derkach: I offer my apology to the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak) and to the Minister of Family Services (Ms. Melnick) because I did refer to them directly, Mr. Speaker, and I offer my apology to them as well. Mr. Speaker: That should end the matter. I accept that.

The honourable Member for Emerson, before you conclude, I would just like to remind all honourable members that I have heard sufficient argument. I do not want this to turn into debate, but if honourable members are rising because they feel there is some point that has been missed by the House Leaders or other people that have risen on this, I will hear the honourable member. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I will not be very long. I have sat or been a member of this Legislative Assembly now since the spring of 1988.

I watch very diligently and participate, I think, in a reasonable manner in most of the processes in this Legislative Assembly. I think all of us have. I think all of us that serve here have a deep appreciation for the democracy that has brought this Legislative Assembly to Manitoba and is currently operating in this manner. Mr.

Speaker, the point I want to bring to your attention is when a minister stands in this House and suggests she or he has in his or her possession documents that will or can be tabled and brought to the attention of some members of this House in a committee form or other, that minister has a constitutional right and we, as members in this House, have a democratic right to be able to assess those documents. All of us, not just one or two or four that might be committee members, but all of us have a right to access of those documents. That right, in my view, has been breached here today by the minister.

I believe that right is an indication of how far this government in power today in this province wants to stretch democracy. When I say "stretch democracy," it is very often the first signal as to where they would like this Chamber and the process of legislation and regulation and the debates and procedures to be taken. I think, Mr. Speaker, it behooves all of us that are elected members, that we as members that were elected, duly elected to represent the people of this province of Manitoba, do so in an honest manner, do so in a forthright manner. I believe all of us that sit here try and do that.

However, today we saw a demonstration of breach of the right to be able to access the information that is at the disposal of the minister. That is very often the first step in the changes in democracy or de mocratic procedure that we have seen in other countries. It had already been pointed out the chaos that currently exists in Ukraine and many other countries where dictatorial powers have been brought to focus in assemblies such as this and the democracies and the democratic processes set aside. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to you that it behooves you and all of us in this Legislature to guard our democratic rights with every power we possess as legislators. That is our God-given right. That is the right that has been enshrined to us or entrusted unto us, that we, for future generations, maintain those rights. I would suggest the resolution

78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 that was passed here today should serve as notice that we reserve the right to review the processes that are utilized by some members of this Legislature and specifically the minister. We, I believe, should call the minister back into this building and ask her to table the documents that have been requested here today before we leave this Chamber because it is our right as legislators to have access to those documents.

With that I will sit down, but I hope this will serve notice that we will keep very close vigilance to protect the democracy and the democratic procedures that we have had the right to, been elected to and entrusted to as members of this Legislature. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the other members, I would just like to remind honourable members that making reference to the presence or absence of members, like referring to calling a member back into the building, it is the same thing.

I would ask all honourable members to please respect our rule of making reference to members' presence or absence, okay? * (14:50) Mr. Penner: That reference, Mr. Speaker, I truly apologize. Mr. Speaker: That should take care of the matter. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to apprise you of some facts that you may find useful in your deliberation on this matter of privilege.

I believe this whole issue could have been avoided had the government followed the advice from the Auditor General, who was on record as saying that our Public Accounts Committee is the least effective Public Accounts Committee in all of Canada. We made an effort to change the rules under which the Public Accounts Committee operates. We passed three motions. One, to have the Rules Committee meet and come back with a recommen- dation to the committee by September 30. The Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) chose not to call the Rules Committee until December, and so that motion has not been dealt with.

We also brought forward two unanimous motions, which we discussed yesterday, which seem to have no ability to be dealt with by this House, by the legislators of this province, and I think that is unfortunate. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take you back to, I think, that which is the genesis of the frustration that we as opposition members feel on this issue, and give you further indication as to how our rights as individual members and collective members of this Legislatur e have been breached by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick).

As indicated during Question Period, I asked her on numerous occasions to table the report which we referred to today in Question Period and which we have referred to in this matter of privilege. Time after time after time, and I have quoted from Hansard, and I refer you, Mr. Speaker, to the Hansard of September 8, 2004, on this issue where she said she would take the matter under advisement over and over again. She would not comment on the report.

But further to that, I wish to advise you that as soon as the committee ended, that minister then went out into the hall and told the media without consulting anybody that she was not going to release that document because in her view it was a private document that had Cabinet privilege. For the whole Public Accounts process, that whole afternoon she told us she would take it under advisement without even referring back to the committee. She then went into the hallway and advised the press that under no circumstances would she be releasing that report. So that is why, Mr.

Speaker, when we heard the Premier announce on radio that we had access to all the information that we had asked for, we again came back to the House and asked the minister if she would then do as her Premier had asked and table the report with the Legislature of Manitoba. Of course, as you heard and we all heard, she has refused once again, saying she will bring it to the Public Accounts Committee, quite frankly, of which we have no guarantee.

We have no method, we have no means during that Public Accounts Committee, to demand that the minister present the financial information that she gave to the Auditor General. We do not even know if she is referring to the same report that we are asking for. We asked very specifically for the document that she provided the Auditor General that led to his investigation into the allegations of financial mis- management at Hydra House. We have not even

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 79 been told by this minister that that is the information that will come to us. Mr. Speaker, we have no choice, I believe, but to ask the minister to do the right thing and table it in the House. I would ask you to take that into account during your deliberations. I would close by saying that, had the government done as they had promised to do when they were in opposition, and moved forward on the recommen- dations that were made by the Auditor General back in 1997, I believe, I would specifically indicate that it is the now-Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) who spoke at length during a Public Accounts Committee in 1997 as to the wisdom of this Legislature adopting those recommendations from the Auditor and yet is part of the group that is stonewalling in the adoption of those recommendations. Had we, as a Legislature, had an opportunity to deal with the recommendations and move forward on the recommendations from the Auditor General none of this would be necessary, because Public Accounts Committee would have teeth. We would not be in a situation where a minister of the Crown is abusing the rights and privileges of members of the Legislature. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I want to put a few words on the record in regard to this matter of privilege. Mr Speaker, our rules indicate that we cannot say who is here and who is not here, but I do think that it is important to recognize that you observe on who is here and who is not here. The reason why I suggest that, if we go to Beauchesne's, page 28 in the 6th Edition, "By its nature, a question of privilege is of such importance that it may be raised at any time, and Standing Order 48 makes provision for the precedence of a question of privilege over all other business of the House." Mr.

Speaker, I think it is worthy to note, and you have highlighted it in the past, the very serious nature that a matter of privilege really is. It is something that needs to be taken seriously. That is why I will not indicate who is here or who is not here, but I do think it is worth an observation from your point of view as when you might want to reflect on the matters of privilege. I would go to page 3, which is the very first page, if you like, of Beauchesne's. If you go to Citation 1, in

part it states, "to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly fashion." Mr. Speaker, I listened to the Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) in his comments, and I think that if you check the record in the last number of matters of privilege that were raised, you will find that the Government House Leader has a standard line that really trivializes the importance of individual members' rights.

I think that we have seen a pattern with this government, a pattern that does not bode well for credibility on the whole issue of democracy and members' rights to be able to adequately represent their constituents on those issues that are so vitally important. There are issues that are there that we have a mandated responsibility, whether the government wants to recognize that mandate or not, we recognize the mandated responsibility that we have as members of the opposition to be able to hold the government to account for its actions. Mr. Speaker, why that is important, the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cumming

s) indicated, in experi- encing frustration, that you have the Premier (Mr. Doer) of the day making a statement on radio saying how he is facilitating and providing information to all members, to all requests that are being made of the government regarding Hydra House. Then, during Question Period when the issue was raised, there is a tremendous amount of, for lack of better words, bafflegab or intentional misdirection of answers and possibly even questions. The issue is actually sidestepped.

The opposition gets frustrated because we know what it is that we should be entitled to receive, yet we see the government stalling on this very important and critical issue. They are indicating, well, it has to go through Public Accounts. I believe, as a member of this Legislature, and not a member of the Public Accounts Committee, that I, too, have a right to be able to have access to that information. I stood up the other day to make reference to it. The government seems to want to tie it in, and what they are doing is they are tying it in.

T h e y s a y , " W e l l , w e n o t o n l y w a n t t h e f o r m e r minister, we want the former, former minister in order to appear in Public Accounts." Our concern is what is in the best interest of the public. The critical time, I believe, is that there was an internal review that was done in 2000, but no

80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 public report on that review was given dealing with the financial aspects. The then current minister is the one in which we have a responsibility to try to come clean on this whole issue. The government of the day, and particularly the Government House Leader (Mr.

Mackintosh) and the current mi nister respon- sible, seem to be quite content in saying, "Yeah, we have the information, but we are not going to do anything until Public Accounts comes, and if Public Accounts comes, well, we want not only the former minister, we want the former, former minister." I think that the government of the day is using Public Accounts as a scapegoat. We could ultimately articulate that what should have been happening is we should have been sitting last September in dealing with issues of this nature.

This is the most appropriate place for us to be able to try to draw information out of the government. For the govern- ment to be saying, "we are not prepared to share information unless it is in Public Accounts," I do believe that we start infringing upon the rights of all the members inside this Chamber. * (15:00) That is why I think that and what could go into Beauchesne's.

I decided in particular Beauchesne's No. 1, the first citation, but I believe that there are other citations that are there that would clearly indicate that the government of the day is wrong in not providing information that on the one hand it is telling the public of the province that it is providing us, and on the other hand is refusing to do what it is telling Manitobans that it is doing. If the government said we do not have the information, and the opposition was asking for it, well, we might disagree with them but we would unfortunately have to accept that. But that is not the case.

It is not only saying that it has the information, it is also portraying the impression that it is providing the information to the public. There has to be some privilege that is being overlooked here, and that is why it upsets me when the Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), no matter what the issue might be, no matter what presentation is made from members of the opposition, has that standard line to minimize and to belittle any privilege that is raised inside this Chamber.

Much like when I raised the issue of the number of sitting days, the Government House Leader says, "Well, we sit more and the member should be counting those as sitting days. When we sit in committees those should be counted as sitting days." Well, I do not know what world the Government House Leader sits on when it comes to democratic principles.

But I think that the Government House Leader needs to revisit th e importance of democracy in our province and, most importantly, the importance of members' privileges and rights inside this Chamber, and not belittle individuals, members when they raise important issues such as matters of privilege. Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate your recognition of myself in allowing me to rise this afternoon on this matter of privilege, and to offer advice as to whether or not we satisfied the two requirements as it being a matter of privilege and that being at the earliest possible occasion after the breach of privileges of the House.

The second point, in fact, that it has to be a prima facie case established which Maingot offers the following definition: A prima facie case of privilege in the parliamentary sense was one where the evidence on its face as outlined by the member is sufficiently strong for the House to be asked to debate the matter and to send it to a committee to investigate whether the privileges of the House have been breached or a contempt has occurred and report to the House. Mr. Speaker, I have never risen in my tenure as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba on a point of privilege.

However, clearly in my mind a breach has occurred of the privileges of the members of this Legislative Assembly. As well, contempt has been obviously displayed by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick). Today you heard, and it will be written in Hansard, that she does indeed have information that was requested and that she stated she would not release it to the members of this Legislative Assembly. Only will she release the information to those members as acknowledged as members of the Public Accounts Committee.

The Public Accounts Committee is a committee of this Legislature and is made up of members of the Legislative Assembly. Today, this minister has shown complete and utter contempt for all members of the Legislative Assembly, showing that there is privilege within this

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 81 Legislative Assembly offered only those members of the Legislature who are members of this particular legislative committee. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, that is contemptuous of our privileges as members of this Legislative Assembly. I will not further debate. I do believe that you will take this matter under consideration as to whether or not it is a matter of privilege. I certainly, Sir, believe that it is and I look forward to the opportunity to debate the matter further. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Okay.

A matter of privilege is a very serious concern, so I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult with the authorities and I will return to the House with a ruling. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Philippine-Canadian Centre Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, on November 6, 2004, I, along with my colleague, the MLA for Wolseley, and other distinguished guests recently had the privilege of attending the formal celebration to inaugurate the Philippine-Canadian Centre of Manitoba.

The volunteers and donors who made this a special evening are too many to mention, but the new centre would not have been possible without assist- ance from the Philippine Association of Manitoba, numerous individual donors and other Filipino organizations in the community. These organizations and individuals have been strong supporters of the centre since the beginning. Thanks must be given also to the provincial and federal governments for their financial support through the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program and to the City of Winnipeg for originally leasing the land to our community.

The Philippine-Canadian Centre of Manitoba is important for our community. It is home to important Filipino organizations like the Philippine Association of Manitoba, the Philippine Consulate in Manitoba and other business groups that are leasing out space in the new centre. The centre has a boardroom that can be used by Filipino organizations, as well as a functional kitchen and a multi-purpose room. The centre will serve as a focal point to showcase, unite and promote Philippine culture and its contribution to the socio-economic and political life in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I commend the PCCM board of directors, through the president, Dr. Romulo Magsino, and the entire executive for a successful evening to honour those who made the dream of a Philippine-Canadian Centre a reality. As a proud member of the Filipino community and appointed patron of the centre, I wish the Filipino community much success in the future. Their dedication and perseverance is an inspiration to all of us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ukrainian Election Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): I rise on a member's statement today to pay tribute to the people in Ukraine who have fought for freedom and independence and democr acy for so long, Mr. Speaker. What we have witnessed over the course of the last number of weeks and days is somewhat tragic, I guess, for the democratic process in a country that is trying to desperately work its way out of the socialist Soviet Union rule of that particular country for over 70 years, and has, for the last 13 years, attempted to work its way into a democratic society. Mr.

Speaker, the elections held in Ukraine have, by all observers, been condemned as being fraud- ulent and ones which do not recognize democratic process. Tonight there is a vigil to support the people who are fighting so hard to bring democracy back to a country that has been enslaved under communist and socialist rule for so long. It is a known fact that when democracy is suppressed, people's rights, people's fundamental rights stripped away, then society in general begins to deteriorate and suffer. When we look at Ukraine, Mr.

Speaker, it is a country that is rich, not only in human resources but is rich in so many natural resources and yet a country that is so backward because it has been suppressed for so long that it cannot compete on the global scene. If that country is ever going to realize its potential, it must be given the opportunity to operate in a democratic and free society. So, Mr. Speaker, today I rise, not only to support the cause by people who are going to be gathering at the vigil, but indeed to echo the sentiments of people whose heritage is Ukrainian to support people in Ukraine. Thank you. * (15:10)

82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 Kiwanis Club of St. James Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): It is with great pleasure that I rise today to talk about the Kiwanis Club of St. James. I know that my honourable colleague, the MLA for Assiniboia, shares my sentiments. For the past 60 years, this selfless organization has sponsored fundraising and community-oriented events targeted at advanc ing the welfare of individ- uals of all ages and from all backgrounds. They provide support on a regular basis for groups such as the St. James Air Cadets, the Women's Abuse Centre and The Salvation Army.

They provided support for the Brummitt-Feasby ALS house, and this year I had the privilege of working with them on a fundraising campaign which raised over $7,000 for the St. James Rods football club. In recent months this group has truly stepped up to the plate and has been instrumental in providing affordable, independent-living accommodations to seniors. St. James Kiwanis Courts and Lodge collaborated with all three levels of government to develop 24 new apartment units which will be accessible to seniors with low to moderate incomes. The apartments are part of the St.

James Kiwanis Manor redevelopment project underway at 135 Sinawik Bay. The St. James Kiwanis give not only from their heart but from their wallet as well. They will contribute $828,741 toward the St. James Kiwanis Manor project. In addition, $960,000 in funding will be provided by the Winnipeg Housing and Home- lessness Initiative's rental supply program. This project is a demonstration of a successful partnership between governments, the community, and the non- profit sector.

I was honoured to participate in discussions on this project, and I was very impressed by the Kiwanis Courts and Lodge's attention to detail, as well as their willingness to engage in extensive consultation with other parties. To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I call on all members of the House to support the Kiwanis in their future endeavours and to congratul ate them on 60 years of dedicated service to their community. St. Leon Wind Farm Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to express my gratitude to those who took the time to come to the Legislative Building to be a part of a very important announcement for our province. The construction of Canada's largest, and Manitoba's first, wind farm near St. Leon is an exciting venture that will bring to Manitoba state-of-the-art energy generating methods that will position our province as a leader in clean energy creation. This new endeavour pr esents significant econo- mic opportunities for rural Manitoba.

The $10 million this project is expected to generate for Manitoba farmers and other landowners who will have wind turbines on their land will be a welcome addition to their farming and livestock operations. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the $190 million that will be invested into the construction of the St. Leon wind farm translates into job creation for rural Manitobans that will diversify our economy, encourage further economic growth, and provide significant business opportunities for our province.

Moreover, the economic advantages from this project will be far-reaching, benefiting municipalities, school boards and all the people living in the surrounding communities. More importantly, the construction of this wind farm sends a clear message to future generations that the protection of our environment is a priority and responsibility of all Manitobans. I would like to thank the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the former Energy, Science and Technology Minister for their hard work and dedication in bringing this project to Manitoba.

I would also like to thank the current Energy Minister for taking on their lead in ensuring that this project became a reality. Again, I would like to thank representatives from the Grenier family, the Martel family, the Labossière family, the Brunel family, the Boulet family for driving in and participating in this historic event for the province of Manitoba. I know I, like countless other Manitobans, look forward to the construction of the St. Leon wind farm. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Physician Resources Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I have great concern about the condition of health care in Manitoba today. In their 1999 Throne Speech, the present NDP government made solemn commitments to rescue health care to ensure Manitobans have quick access to health care when needed, and to make sure shortages of health care professionals

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 83 were addressed. Today, five years later, in The Pas, Ashern, Brandon, Rivers, Winnipeg and many other communities, there are critical shortages of physicians. Yesterday, I talked ab out Ashern, where for 11 of the next 18 days there will be no doctor available to see patients or to cover the emergency room. Mr. Speaker, can you imagine someone travelling an hour and a half, maybe longer if the road conditions are poor, with a severe medical problem like a heart attack from Dauphin or Rivers to Ashern and finding the emergency room closed?

The notice circulated in Ashern just said, "Please proceed to another emergency room." Mr. Speaker, another open emergency room is likely to be another hour away from Ashern. The notice in Ashern said, "So rry for the inconvenience." To someone who is seriously ill, feeling as if they might be dying, all this government and its repre- sentatives can say is, "Sorry for the inconvenience." Not good enough. The situation in other communities is equally serious.

In Brandon, this government has known for a long time that obstetric services there are abso- lutely critical because obstetric services are closing in many smaller rural hospitals. They have known for a long time that having an adequate number of pediatricians in Brandon is crucial, and yet we face a situation in Brandon where there may be days in the near future where mothers awaiting delivery of a child may have to go to Winnipeg. The present NDP government has fallen far short of what it promised to deliver. Its promises are broken, shattered, in shreds.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Second Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion, the honourable Member for Rossmere, (Mr. Schellen- berg), standing in the name of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray), who has unlimited time. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Thank you very mu ch, Mr. Speaker, and I am delighted that there are so many of the members on the government benches that are riveted on what I have to say. That is very, very important. So anyway, I appreciate– [interjection] Anyway, that better not be part of my time.

Okay, well, I will try and speak a little bit louder, and apparently people will have to speak a little bit louder back to me just so that I can hear properly. Anyway, I was saying yesterday when I was making comments about the Doer government and some of the issues on the economic strategy, I think one of the issues I wanted to address with respect to my response from the Speech from the Throne was the fact this First Minister, I thought it was very interesting that he went down to the Health Summit in Ottawa.

At that time we saw the live coverage, and as it went around the table and the First Ministers were speaking, but in particular I thought it was interesting that the First Minister from Manitoba basically put his finger in front of Prime Minister Martin and challenged him to live up to the promises that he made to Canadians during the federal election, the last federal election. I thought it was perhap s somewhat cynical, Mr.

Speaker, that the First Minister, the Premier of Manitoba, would be lecturing some other leader about their commitment to health care, when, in fact, we have seen in Manitoba under this Premier really the sort of crisis in many respects and the difficulty that we see in the development of health care in the province of Manitoba. We know full well that the spending and the administrative costs, the regional health authorities, we know that spending is going through the roof, going up exponentially.

The unfortunate part about that is that, as the expenditures go up on the administrative side, that takes away valuable dollars, valuable resources, that could be put into front-line services to make sure that there is more timely access to care for Manitoba patients. * (15:20) So, again, we say on this side of the House, why do we not open up the regional health authorities? Why do we not have a look and see how it is that they are working? We thin k that they are obviously doing some good things, Mr. Speaker.

But, clearly, when costs continue to go up and up and up, I think it should send up a flag to say that it is time for us to

84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 go in and have a look around and see why it is that our administrative costs are going up, because we need to put that money and direct it toward front-line workers and front-line services. I know that when we say that, the First Minister always says, "You are attacking your old boss. Why are you attacking your former boss?" The fact of life is this is not about attacking anybody. Surely, we should want to do what is right for better access to care for Manitoba patients. That is why we should do it.

Again, I say and believe, I cannot quote the Premier specifically, but I do know he was very clear in the 1999 election. I think he mentioned it in 2003. I may be mistaken on that, but I know he has said to Manitobans that one of his priorities is to ensure administrative costs do not rise because, as they rise, that means scarce dollars, precious dollars that should be going to front-line workers in fact are going to be taken away. That was something he was concerned about.

So I ask the question on behalf of moms and dads and grandmothers and aunts and uncles who are waiting on long waiting lists under the Doer government. Why is it he will not do as he said he was going to do, as he challenged the Prime Minister o f C a n a d a t o d o , t o l i v e u p t o w h a t h e s a i d i n t h e election campaign? Why does he not go in and have a look at the regional health authorities, have a look and see where the money is going and why the expenditures continue to climb? The other issue is very clear, Mr. Speaker.

I know that when we were in Brandon just a couple of weekends ago, it became very clear when I talked to a number of young mothers who have a real concern, a real issue about the shortage of pediatric doctors in Brandon. I thought it was very unfortunate. We heard in the House today that the new Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) said, when asked by the Health critic, the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), about why this Doer government is not doing anything to help the young mothers, the young children in Brandon in an emergency situation. His comeback, I thought, was very clever.

It is sort of new math on the government benches, but what he said was, "I spent a full half day in Brandon." I am glad he spent a full half day rather than a half, half day, because on that full half day I am sure that he made a huge difference. I say that with all the amount of cynicism I can muster, because it has done nothing. It has done nothing to help those moms and children who need pediatric care in Brandon.

In fact, what we see under the Doer government now with health care, particularly those in the Westman region, and I know my colleague, and I am going to be delighted to hear his words, my colleague the new member from Turtle Mountain is going to be speaking about this issue because it is an issue that is very important to Westman. Under the Doer government, they were all worried about hallway medicine. They said they were going to solve that, and they had a plan which was six months and $15 million. That was their plan. Now we are sort of six years and $1 billion later.

Of course, hallway medicine is, unfortunately, still alive and well in Manitoba. But those moms and children in Brandon and in that Westman region who need pediatric doctors do not have to be concerned about hallway medicine. What is existing under the Doer government is highway medicine. It is highway medicine in the sense that they will put a young child or a mother who needs a pediatric surgeon or a pediatric doctor's attention, that they will send them via an ambulance from Brandon all the way to Winnipeg. Now we have highway medicine in Manitoba.

I know the minister of highways is here in the House today, and I hope what the current Minister of Health did when they tried to fudge the numbers around hallway medicine was to get rid of the hallways. I sure hope the minister of highways does not somehow have some way of trying to get rid of the highways. We need more not less, and I know that minister agrees with it. We continually see the fact that in Brandon–I know the Brandon Regional Health Centre is there, but the Doer government will stand up and crow and talk bravado about this wonderful health facility. Mr.

Speaker, it is great to have a wonderful health facility. Nobody would argue with that. But what is, I think, most unfortunate, and the new Minister of Health clearly does not get it, I am not sure. We miss the old Minister of Health, by the way, but the point is that when moms and children have to be forced to take an ambulance to go into Winnipeg, I have one word, and I think I speak on behalf of moms that are

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 85 frustrated in the Brandon area, and that is shame on the Doer government for not living up to what they said they would do. Shame on them for not having the kind of service that young mothers and young children need in the Brandon regional hospital. Mr. Speaker, we hear from the Doer government that they made commitments that they would not close one rural hospital. That, by the way, was during an election campaign, the time when you are trying to convince people to vote for you. Well, that is what they said.

I find it fascinating that about a year ago the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority basically sent a message to a number of communities that there was maybe a different approach to what they were going to do with the rural hospitals in that region, and this is kind of a hallmark of the Doer government: when you are not happy, when things are not going your way, in the sense that there is nobody listening to you, as we hear with the Doer government, then those people from those communities have to take time off from work, take time off from looking after their children and their families, they have to then find ways to come into Winnipeg because that is the only way, and maybe the only way, that they are going to get any kind of attention from the Doer government.

All the Doer government has to do is live up to what they promised Manitobans, that they would not close one rural hospital. They said that, and the people from Rivers that came in, I thought, made a very, very passionate plea on behalf of all of that community. Their plea was quite simple.

They said that at that time the Premier, it was during the election campaign, he went in with the New Democratic Party candidate from the Minnedosa constituency, and they went into the Rivers community hospital and what they said in front of 45 councillors, reeves, leader s of the community, they said, and it was the Premier that said, very clearly, that there would be no change to the acute or emergency services in your hospital. That was a promise from the Premier of Manitoba.

Now, the people of Rivers are very concerned because they are getting the message from the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority that they might have some changes to their hospital. I think the question that the people from Rivers are asking is how is it possible that the Premier of the province of Manitoba would stand in front of 45 members of our community, make a promise, and now the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority is somehow coming behind that and they are going to make a change.

I understand the frustration of the people in Rivers, because if the Premier made a promise in front of a group of people you would think that you could take that to the bank, that that would be what was going to happen, because the Premier of the province of Manitoba has said it, he has promised it. But we have seen a bit of a connect-the-dots issue here in this Legislature with this Premier that he will say one thing to a group, hopefully, to try to put out a fire because it is important. I will give you a couple of examples.

The Manitoba Métis Federa- tion annual meeting, my honourable colleague from Springfield is quite aware of this situation, but we see from this Premier that he will say one thing to try to appease a group and then they will do something quite different. At the Manitoba Métis Federation annual meeting, the Premier stood up in front of them, "We are going to ensure that we honour the harvester cards of the Manitoba Métis Federation." That was the announcement he made and he got a standing ovation. The president of the Manitoba Métis Federation, Mr. Chartrand, was elated.

The Manitoba Métis Federation then encouraged their members, based on what the Premier of the province of Manitoba said, to go out and purchase their harvester cards. It was days, not even weeks, but days after the Manitoba Métis Federation annual meeting that a member of the Manitoba Métis Federation was arrested by this government for using the harvester card . Quite rightly so, the president of the Manitoba Métis Federation, Mr. Chartrand, is saying that who do I believe? You know, the minister is charging us; the Premier (Mr.

Doer) has told our assembly that we are quite fine to use our harvester cards. * (15:30) Of course, I love it over from the loge. I do not even know who the member is. What is our position? This government has maybe two, maybe now there is a third position, and we should try and hear what it is. I will tell you what our position is. We will never mislead the people of Manitoba the way that this government continually does, whether it is the Manitoba Métis Federation, whether it is the people of Rivers. What we have heard today, Mr.

Speaker, with this First Minister saying on Hydra House that I have given all of the information that they have asked for.

86 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 Mr. Speaker, that is just a blatant misleading of the truth. It is unfortunate that the First Minister is starting to go down that path because I think, and I said this, and I mean this sincerely, regardless of the political stripe of the Premier of the day, I think Manitobans want to be proud of their Premier. They want to be proud of what the Premier does for the province. But how is it that you can be proud of a Premier who says one thing to a group, and then does something completely different behind their backs?

What kind of a Premier is that for the province of Manitoba? I think that there are some real serious issues when we talk about health care. Wait lists continue to grow. This Premier is absolutely so ideologically driven that he will not even consider innovation in health care. He will not consider looking at different opportunities if the goal is to provide timely access to care for Manitoba patients under a publicly funded system. Why would people care who owned the bricks and mortar, Mr. Speaker? Why does that have to be the issue?

If the issue simply is to provide more timely access to care, I would think that everybody would be in favour of that, as long as it is under the publicly funded system. But, when ideology gets in front of children, in front of sick parents, in front of sick grandmothers, that is unfortunate for Manitoba. We have heard many times from the members in the government benches that when pressed on health care, I think, although I am not 100 percent sure, but I think after getting on six years in government, even members opposite are having a little bit of trouble trying to continually blame the other government.

I know it is still there, and I know it is such an easy thing to do. When you have no idea and no clue what to do, you blame this person; you blame the federal government; you blame the previous government. You blame somebody else rather than standing up and saying, "Here is what I am going to do. You can take my word to the bank because when I say I am going to deliver, you bet I am going to deliver." Of course, that is almost like foreign policy. If there was foreign policy being developed, that would be foreign policy to the Doer government, Mr. Speaker.

They all like to say if there is a doctor or nurse shortage, one which they promised Manitobans they would deal with and fix, but when we asked questions why it is that we continually have such a strong nursing shortage in the province of Manitoba, the answer, of course, come s back that you cannot just add water, stir and get a nurse. Really? Fascinating. I do not think that is anything on this side of the House that we are surprised to hear. What is unfortunate, however, is that is not the commit- ment that they made to the people of Manitoba.

They never once sort of said we will get more doctors, we will get more nurses. You know how? We got a plan. We got some magic water. We are going to stir it all up and out comes a bunch of nurses and doctors. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans, of course, would not have believed that. So now they try to convince them that it is kind of tough. We just cannot add water, stir and get a doctor or get a nurse.

That is the kind of misleading and misconception and, sometimes, I would have to say it is deceptive when you go in front of Manitobans and you ask for their vote based on what you say you are going to do and that is the best you can come up with in that situation. I do think that we see a lot of issues in the Throne Speech. I thought it was unfortunate that, for a 60-minute Throne Speech, this Doer government spent 60 seconds, one minute, on justice. With respect, it is a known fact that the Hells Angels moved into Manitoba under Premier Doer's watch. That is a known fact, Mr. Speaker.

We have seen growing gang activity under the Doer government. We have seen the number of grow ops increase under the Doer government. We have seen the unfortunate part, and I think this is unfortunate for Manitoba, because under the previous NDP government, at that time it was Premier Pawley, the record number of murders in the city of Winnipeg regrettably was 30. Premier Doer's record– Mr. Speaker: I am going to have to remind the honourable member.

I let it go a few times, and I thought you might remember our rule of addressing members in this House by the portfolios they hold or constituencies, and not by their name. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to you, I apologize to the House for th at. I will refer properly to the First Minister. The First Minister's record in Manitoba is that under his government we have now exceeded 31 murders in the province of Manitoba in the city of

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 87 Winnipeg. So that is a cry out for justice. That is a cry out for the Doer government to finally get serious about this and do something about it. Yes, in the Throne Speech they talk about 40 more police officers, but as I said when I started, this is déjà vu all over again. We have heard that before. We have heard that kind of a commitment, but what have they done? They have whiffed at the plate; they have done nothing. So, again, lots of window dressing, lots of rhetoric, but very little in terms of specifics and follow-up.

We do know that the RCMP, for example, they are responsible for policing a lot of the rural areas in Manitoba. We have seen that, again, under the Doer government lots and lots of rhetoric about policing in the province of Manitoba. Well, again, Mr. Speaker, I always think that facts are an interesting place to start a debate, and the facts are simple, that in Steinbach and in Selkirk those RCMP detachments are no longer. Why is that? Where have they gone? Where have they gone? Mr. Speaker, that is unf ortunate, because this First Minister (Mr. Doer), as the Premier, working with the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh), they are responsible for setting the level of policing in the province of Manitoba. That is their constitutional responsibility. That is what they have to do. But is that the level of policing that the Doer government thinks is appropriate, that we have 31 murders in the city of Winnipeg setting an all-time record, that we see municipalities having to resort to Prairie By-Law Service Enforcement agencies because the Doer government refuses to fund a level of policing across this province. Mr.

Speaker, these are very serious issues, and rather than deal with the issue, we hear a lot more announcements. I would suggest that I know there were some discussions about the boreal forest. Well, with the amount of press releases that come out of the Minister of Justice's office, I would be worried for the boreal forest. They put out press release after press release after press release, and of course, I know that plays well to their caucus and probably to their party members.

But to the public, the people that are out there that are suffering because of the amount of gang activities that we see, the people that are out there that are victims of the kind of crime that we see in Manitoba, those people, those press releases do nothing to support those victims.

I think that is unfortunate, because I think that the Doer govern- ment had an opportunity some six years ago to take issues very seriously and particularly when the Hells Angels moved into this province of Manitoba, I would have thought that they would have ramped up the number of police officers immediately because our police are doing a wonderful job but they have got one hand behind their back because the Doer government is soft on crime. People know that.

They understand that this government is soft on crime, and they are looking for something that will ensure that there is a sense of safety in their community. I can tell you they got nothing from the Doer government on that issue. * (15:40) Mr. Speaker, on BSE, I know that the First Minister likes to say, "Well, you know, you're in Brandon and you didn't bring a resolution forward to do with the BSE issue." Well, no, of course, because we have a plan. We have a five-point plan, unlike the government members. We have a five-point plan. Again, I would say, and I know the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) is here, and I know she is delighted to listen to what I have to say, and I would be thrilled, unlike the Premier (Mr. Doer) who wants to turn a deaf ear a nd turn his back on rural Manitoba, if the Minister of Agriculture would just say, "Look, why don't we sit down and work together? Why do we not sit down and work together as legislatures, because that will be the right signal to send to Manitoba families, those that are in crisis, those that need help." Th at is the kind of co- operation, I think, that Manitobans are looking for.

But, no, they want to skip along in their own merry way, 555 days after this crisis started. At that point, the Premier stands up in the Speech from the Throne and says, "Wow, I think there is a problem in rural Manitoba. I think we better try and do something about it." So what do they do? Thirty-three percent on the special levy on education. Mr.

Speaker, if the members opposite would actually travel around Manitoba, if they would absolutely travel around and meet with those families, they would understand why we have to eliminate the education tax off of residential property and farmland, and make that commitment that it will be done by the end of 2007. That is the kind of signal that not only rural Manitobans are looking for, but people that live in the cities. All Manitobans want to see that kind of a situation.

88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 Mr. Speaker, a couple of other points I would like to make. Number one is, we have heard, and it comes back down to the credibility of this First Minister, all parties in this House agree that we should have a smoking ban in public places. We thought it was the right thing to do. Why? To protect workers from second-hand smoke. It was debated in this House, and an all-party committee was struck. The honourable member from Fort Whyte, the honourable member from Carman, on our side, were part of that committee.

What they debated was to ensure that if the belief is that you are going to protect all workers in public places from second- hand smoke, that means all workers, whether you work in a restaurant in Winnipeg, whether you work at a restaurant in Thompson, or whether you work in an environment on one of our First Nations reserves. All Manitobans should be respected and treated equally, but, no, this Premier says, "Well, I do not have jurisdiction on First Nations. I cannot do anything about that." That is just totally false, because he is the one that gives the gaming licences for those casinos.

He is the one that has the ability to ensure that all Manitobans are being treated equally. No wonder there is frustration out there in the province of Manitoba over this issue. This govern- ment does not have a clear position. They will not take a position on it. We have. They will not, and it is unfortunate that Manitobans are getting very frustrated in that issue. I want to also say that today we saw the Child Poverty Report Card on Manitoba brought forward. An Honourable Member: An embarrassment. Mr.

Murray: It is truly an embarrassment that the Doer government, after six years, has done nothing to address this issue. Again, we will hear a lot of platitudes and a lot of bravado, but again, I am sure they will go back into their caucus offices and slap each other on the back and say, "Wow, we are doing a great job. Well, really, look at this press release. No, look at this press release. No, hey, mine is bigger. Well, I got two pages." Mr. Speaker, at the end of the day, this is a very serious issue about children in Manitoba that are suffering.

For six years, this government has had a chance to have an impact, and they have done zero. That is unfortunate for children in Manitoba, because I look around on our side of the House, on government's side of the House, a lot of parents over there, a lot of parents that understand how difficult it is, and how fortunate we are that we are able to feed our children, and how we should be dealing with an issue to ensure that governments are there to help those that are most needy. That is something important.

I just wanted to make a comment on the member from Burrows, who said in his seat, in Hansard, that the best thing for the self-esteem of a family is to try to ensure that you break that cycle of poverty by ensuring that there are more opportunities and more work for people . I take it from the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) th at he was sincere about his comments, and we agree with that. The idea is to get more people working so that child poverty can be broken, and that is something that I think that all governments should be working on. I can tell you it is an issue that we take very, very seriously. Mr.

Speaker, I am delighted to have gotten up in the House to make some comments on the record on the Throne Speech. I would like to say that I would like to move a motion, and I would like that motion to be seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Cullen), and I would like to read that. I know that I have got in a little bit of hot water on this, so I hope I do it in the right order, but I would like to read, THAT the motion be amended by adding at the end of the sentence the following words: But this House regrets (

a) the government's failure to commit to elimination of all education tax off of residential property and farmland; and (

b) the government's failure to commit to not closing or converting rural hospitals; and (

c) the government's failure to commit to addressing the pediatric doctor shortage in Brandon; and (

d) the government's failure to provide any strategy to address growing wait lists throughout Manitoba; and (

e) the government's failure to initiate a review of health care regionalization; and (

f) the government's failure to meaningfully address the growing concerns related to organized crime,

November 24, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 89 including the fact that since November 2000, Manitoba has been the sc ene of 37 biker-related murders and attempted murders; and (

g) the government's failure to develop a long-term economic strategy to address anemic job growth and make Manitoba a "have" province; and (

h) the government's failure to adequately address the BSE crisis and to provide any plan to increase slaughter capacity in Manitoba, thereby threatening not only the stability of the livestock sector but all of those other sectors in Manitoba's economic that are so reliant on its well-being; and (

i) the government's failure to recognize and encourage the important role private-sector involve- ment has in growing Manitoba's economy; and (

j) the government's failure to acknowledge that balanced budgets have only been achieved through significant raids on Manitoba Hydro and the Fiscal Stabilization Fund; and (

k) the government's failure to acknowledge their raid on Manitoba Hydro contributed to a 10% increase in Hydro rates; and (

l) the government's failure to commit to calling an independent public inquiry into the spending of taxpayer money at Hydra House; and (

m) the government's failure to commit to strength- ening the role and function of the Public Accounts Committee. AND HAS THEREBY lost the trust and confidence of the people of Manitoba and this House. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray), seconded by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Cullen), THAT the motion be amended by adding at the end of the sentence the following words: Some Honourable Members: Dispense. An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Dispense? No. Okay. But this House regrets: (

a) the government's failure to commit to elimination of all education tax off of residential property and farmland; and (

b) the government's failure to commit to not closing or converting rural hospitals; and (

c) the government's failure–[interjection] Order. I heard the members wishing me to read it and I ask the co-operation so the members can hear the motion. (

c) the government's failure to commit to addressing the pediatric doctor shortage in Brandon; and (

d) the government's failure to provide any strategy to address growing wait lists throughout Manitoba; and (

e) the government's failure to initiate a review of health care regionalization; and (

f) the government's failure to meaningfully address the growing concerns related to organized crime, including the fact that since November 2000, Manitoba has been the sc ene of 37 biker-related murders and attempted murders; and (

g) the government's failure to develop a long-term economic strategy to address anemic job growth and make Manitoba a "have" province; and (

h) the government's failure to adequately address the BSE crisis and to provide any plan to increase slaughter capacity in Manitoba, thereby threatening not only the stability of the livestock sector but all those other sectors in Manitoba's economic that are so relevant on its well-being; and (

i) the government's failure to recognize and encourage the important role private-sector involve- ment has in growing Manitoba's economy; and (

j) the government's failure to acknowledge that balanced budgets have only been achieved through significant raids on Manitoba Hydro and the Fiscal Stabilization Fund; and (

k) the government's failure to acknowledge their raid on Manitoba Hydro contributed to a 10% increase in Hydro rates; and

90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 24, 2004 (

l) the government's failure to commit to calling an independent public inquiry into the spending of taxpayer money at Hydra House; and (

m) the government's failure to commit to strength- ening the role and function of the Public Accounts Committee. AND HAS THEREBY lost the trust and confidence of the people of Manitoba and this House. I advise the House that this motion is in order. * (15:50) Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis te

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bf38b392e9d0cb39e89b6a8e28075d86e43bca74

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