VOL. 2 NO. 22 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 15, 1930

Acril 15, 1580 Tape No. 758 MM - 1 The House met at 3:30 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. S?EAKER (Sims) : Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the premier. PREMIER PECNPORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish to report to this House on the Report of the Public Accounts Committee for the year ending March 31, 1978, released yesterday. Number one, those matters in the report dealing with the Department of Finance will be addressed by the Minister of Finance over the next number of days in this House.

Suffice it for me to say that the major improvements in the operation of that iemartment have been instituted by the present minister, especially those that deal with the Auditor General's reports over the last couple of years. Number two, those matters dealing with helicopter hire will be addressed by the Minister of Transportation and Communicationa in the next few days, thrcugh the medium of this House. Once again, let ma say that major improvements have been made by the present minister to the way in which that helicopter contract is adminustered by government.

And I think most hon. members are familiar that a number of changes and a number of improvoments and refinements have been made to ensure that the public trust is carried on. Number three, the Public Tender Act. Because this item involves many departments, I will personally examine the recommendations made by the Committee on this matter and have the matter reviewed by Cabinet. After this is done, I will report back to this House on whether government intends to change the present act in lught of the recommendations. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot today, twenty-four hours afterwards deal with that in a substantive cay and not having an opportunity to meet with Cabinet to discuss the recommendations

Acril 15, 1932 Tate No. 758 NM - 2 PRESIIER PECKFORD: contained in the report. But I undertake so to do and to report back to this House in this session on that matter and to say just exactly what the government intends to do,if anything, relevant to those recommendations for changes in the Public Tender Act. May I make it clear, Mr. Speaker, that since assuming the office I now hold, I have requested all departments to atrictly follow all regulations that apply to the disbursements of public funds.

Two actions that I implemented were: Number one, a memorandum on March 29, 1979 to all ministers and deputy ministers requesting that proper controls be implemented, and I quote from that firat memorandum: "Care should be taken in particular to ensure that the requirements of the Public Tender Act and the Financial Administration Act are met." Secondly, I felt it incumbent upcn ne as Premier to send out a second memorandum on August 9, 1979 to all ministers and deputy ministers reiterating the theme of the memo, the first one of March 29, 1979.

April 15, IPSO Tate No. 759 All-i ?REMIER RECKEORD: As a result of the present report yesterday, I have today informed all ministers and deputy ministers that in future, if there is any doubt whatsoever about whether the awarding of any contract might be contravening the Public Tendering Act, then a legal opinion from the Department of Justice in writing must be obtained first. Number four, the matter concerning the hon. James Morgan, the Minister of Fisheries, has been discussed with me and : have had a number of meetings with tne hon. Minister of Fisheries on this matter. The Committee contends that Mr.

Morgan knowingly contravened the Public Tendering Act. Mr. Morgan for his part adamantly maintains that this is untrue, that he did not 'knowingly' breach such legislation. Obviously, an honest difference of opinion exiota between the members of the Committee and Mr .Morgan. SOME HON. MEY.BERS: Oh, oh! shame! MR SPEAKER (SIRES) Order, please! PREMIER ?ECKFORD: If any mistakes were made, I accept they were made in good faith. Mr. Speaker, the Povernment I lead will continue to do all in its power to ensure that the taxpayers' money is spent according to each and every requirement placed upon it.

It will continue to scrupulously comply with the letter and the spirit of the Public Tendering Act. SOME HON. MEMBERE: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. LesSer of the Opoosition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, the Premier reminds me of the person who slaughtered his father and mother and then pleaded for compassion on the rccnds That he was an orphan. The truth of the matter is - AN HON. MEMBER: Big deal! KR. JRDESON: Big deal nothing!

Mr. greaser, this is the first ocrcrtunity that this Premier had had to really show that he meant what he said about legitimate and open oovernmenr and that he would not tolerate any hanky-oar.ky. SOME SCM. MEMBERS: Near, hear!

April 13, 1990 Tape No. 759 AH-2 :9.. j?:lEsON: Now, Mr. Speaker, he must know too that his argument stout: a legitimate difference of opinion between the right hon.or the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan): I will not elevate him to right hon.- the hon. Minister of Fisheries, to say that it is an honest flifference of opinion is also to say that the man who is convicted in a court has an honest difference of opinion with a jury or a judpe who found him guilty. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have no concern whatsoever for the Minister of Fisheries fMr.

Nor;an) in this matter insofar as he and his own integrity and the like are concerned. But the truth of the matter is,snd it cannot be denied , Mr. Speaker, that a unanimous finding, a unanimous ftnding of this House, a unanimous one which involved a majority of members from the government side as well as members from this side, found unequivocally that on two serarata occasicne, the present Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) , the then Minister of Transport and Communications, and I quote the word 'knowingly', knowingly went around the Public Tendering Act.

Auril 15, 1980 Tape 760 EC - 1 MR. C. JkMIESC: Now, Mr. Speaker, as far as I know the Public Tendering Act is a law of tnis Province. It is a law of this land. Therefore, what a j..iry of his peers, hi:h is what it amounts to - MR. F. ROBERTS: Having heard the evidence. MR. D.

JAMIESOM: - having heard the evidence, having brought in the previous Premier and having listened to him, having given the hon. the minister the opportunity to give his side of the case fully, having examined all of the evidence that was presented before it, caine to the unanimous conclusion that in fact the minister knowinly contravened that particular act. How, Mr.

Speaker, I suggest to you and I suggest to any members opposite who have any knowledge whatever of Parliamentary procedure or anything of the like, that there is only one honourable course for the hon. minister to take right now and that is to resign from the Cabinet of this Province. SCE HON. M3ERS: Hear, hear MR. D. JA.MIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have seen far less by way of offences in which that actIon has been taken.

What the hen, member does after he resigns is something else again, but to continue to sit in a Cabinet, indicd by members on both sides of this House - by a chairman, it is true, from this party, but by members from the opposite side as well - and having said that he knowingly did this, this is a finding, this is not a difference of opinion. It is like somebody ueing carted off out of a court and saying, Your Honour, it is a legitimate differenca of opinion between you and me. That simply is not anything that is going to wean. 8ut, Mr.

Speaker, the real, real responsibility rests upon the man who leads the Government of this Province, the Premier of Newfoundland, wno has said over and over again that :ntegrity, openness - that he will not tolerate anything. What he is really saying, however, is that he will not tolerate anvtning that has happened since the 18th of June of last year. MR. S. NEARY: Near, flear MA. C. JAMIESON: And how can we believe him on what he will do after tne 18th of June of last year when everything before that is to ra

AprIl 15, 1980 Tape 760 EC - 2 MR. D. JAMIESCN: swept under the carpet and we are supoosed to fcrget the whole business Mr. Speaker, I realize I may be going over the normal required anunt of time, but I say tc the Mouse and I say to the Premier that if he is to have credibility on this issue, if he is to have credibility on any of the other things that he is saying to the people of Newfoundland about 'Let us have all the facts out in the open,' if he is to do any of those things, then no later than this day he should demand the resignation of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. E. ROBERTS: That is a powerful. powerful statement

7oril lt, 1780 Tape No. 761 SD - I SPF.KER (Sinr.s The hon. Minister of Health. '.R. N. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce to the House that the Newfoundland Medical ASsociation and the Newfoundland Medicare Commission recently have reached an agreement for the fiscal year 1080-81 affecting fee for service physicians in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am taking the rather unusual step of making this announcement in the House because I believe that the agreement reached between the Medical Association and MCP represents a significant milestone in the ongoing development of medical care services throughout the Province. I might preface the remarks by noting that a joint committee consisting of representatives of the Medical Association, Medicare and the Department of Health and Treasury Board undertook a broad review of the Provinces current situat±.on with regard to provision of medical care services and the remuneration of physicians in the Province.

One of the important conclusions of that committee was that the payment

schedule currently in effect for fee for service physicians in the Province is substantially behind the eguivalent payment schedules in the rest of Canada. The conclusions of this committee along with the input that I have received from other agencies, including my own department officials,confirm the fact that the current low pay

schedule is one of the major factors which has negatively affected our Provinces ability to recrait physicians and especially specialists to our Province. Newfoundland on a population basis has the lowest number of specialists of any province of Canada. The resulting impact of this low number of specialists is twofo1d First, the regional and district hospitals tend to have the greatest difficulty in recruiting specialists,and we are aware of several maor caps in the provision of speciality services throughout the regions of the Province. And I look in some places and 1 use the Western Memorial Hoseital in Cnrner Brook which is a

Anril 15, 1980 Tame No. 761 SD - 2 P. H. HOUSE: tremendous facility but we do not seem to be able to attract specialists there. The second point is that the low number of stDecialists put additional burdens on the existing anecialists in the Province, often forcing them into unusually long and ard'ous working hours, a fact that when seen by potential new physicians often further discourages them from coming into the Province. It is within this context that I feel that the new agreement by the Newfoundland Medical Association and MC? is significant. The Primary focus of the agreement is to create a Payment

schedule and an environment which will be encouraging to ohysicians and which will aid in recruiting much needed physicians to ampropriate locations throughout the Province. The agreement embcdies the twc fo1lowin objectives. First, a recognition that the payment

schedule is significantly behind the rest of Atlantic Canada; secondly, a recognition that there exiswithin the payment

schedule several major inecuities in individual fees I

April 13, 1980 Tape Ho. 762 EL - 1 MR. N. HOUSE: which have resulted largely because of the unusual generally low number of medical manpower in the Province. A major revision of the pay- ment schedules is now being undertaken by MCP and NMA with input from other government agencies, especially the Department of Health. The application of the increase will be as follows: Effective April 1st, 10 per cent will be added to the current payment

schedule pending the thorough review and re-- vision of the payment

schedule that I have just mentioned. This, we anticipate, will require somewhere between three and six months following which the new payment

schedule will be applied with an additional 5 per cent percentage points being applied in specific areas where significant inequities exist and where recruitment has been especially difficult. And I think that adds to about 15 per cent on the overall. We anticipate that the net impact of the new payment

schedule will be one which is fair and equitable to each physician relative to his colleagues in general practice or in specialty fields within the Province. It will also at least partly reduce the existinc inequity compared to payment schedules in other Atlantic provinces. Mr. Speaker, I feel that the nature of the agreement recently concluded by MZP and the Newfoundland Medical Association provides a very clear indication of the dedication and commitment of both government and the medical protessioc. to the improvement of medical services in the Province.

The spirit and intent of the agree- ment has not only recoenized the need of our physicians to receive fair and reasonable remuneration but also has recognized the need to enhance quality and quantity of services available to our citizens. The president, executive and negotiat- ing committee of the NMA and, of course, the chairman, board and senior --I

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 762 EL - 2 MR. N. HOUSE: officers of the Medical Care Commission are to be congratulated for their efforts in bringing about the signif- icant and worthwhile approach to this new agreement. SOME HON. MEMBEPS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, let me, first of all, thank the minister for his courtesy in doing as he did in letting me have a little advance notice on the statement and I do appreciate that. Mr.

Speaker, the minister really has said two things, if I understood the morass of words that made up his statement. First of all, the doctors in this Province are to get an immediate rise of about ten per cent, with a further five per cent to be distributed in some way to be determined and that, secondly, the fee for

schedule paymerts are to be revised in the sense that the fee

schedule is to be aartended. The minister, to deai with the first item, Mr. Speaker, did not cive us any figures. There is not, that I can see in the Budget and in the material with which we have been supp- lied, any indication of the bill on Medicare. Perhaps the minister might give us some fia-ures. All that we know from this document, the Budget and the estimates, is that the vote we are going to be asked to approve is $37,000,000 this year Out of the provincial treasury for Medicare. That is Obviously

Acril 15th., 1980 Tape No. 763 DW - 1 NP. S. ROBERTS: only a portion, I would assume, of the total bill. The method of pay- inent from Ottaw& has changed with the established pro- ararnme of financing grants, SO I am not sure,to be quite candid,whether that is a portion or if so,what oortion. Perhaps the minister might tell us exactly what we are talking of in dollars and perhaps he might tell us as well, in between his congratulating himself and all concerned, exactly where the money is coming from in the sense if it is orovided in these Estimates or not.

Secondly, let me go on to say that we on this side feel, as any fair-minded people must, Mr. Sfleaker, that the doctors in this Province have a right to fair remuneration for their sarvices. I do not think anybody could quarrel with that. The doctors feel,and there is obviously some evidence and they have obviously convinced the Medicare Commission,and I think it is fair to say they have obviously convinced as well the hard- hearted doctor who is the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the guardian of our treasurv,and the other members of the Cabinet that their case is justified and so they will get more money.

No cuarrel with that at a11 But I do think further efforts have cot to be made by the govern- ment in conjunction with the Medicare Commission and the Newfoundland MedicaL Association,which is the trade unico renresentina the doctors on matters of this sort,to see what we can do about the distribution of doctors through- cut this Province, a problem,ind I cannot co into it here now. which is getting worse, the disparity between the services available in oarticularly the St.

John's area and those available elsewhers in the Pro';ince, particularly in the realm of specialists, is getting greater, not lesser; a trend which has developed over the last few years and I

April 15th., 1980 Tape No. 763 Dy - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: think it is heir.q fostered - there is another place for it to discuss this-by govern- ment's molicies or by governments lack of Policy. Let me just say one other thinq;it is is high time the fee

schedule was amended and changed.i would say to the minister it ought to be a root and branch job. The fee

schedule grew up out of the old Bue Cross payment schedules.It is entirely inappropriate for the purpose which it is being used. The same kind of procedure had been adapted across Canada in the late 1960's when medicare came in. It is obvious, I think, to anyone who looks at it that it j3 a most inept and inappropriate way to renumerate doctors for their professional services.

Perhaps Newfoundland and Labrador can take the lead and can work out a new method that is fair and equitable to all concerned, to the doctors who are performing the services and who make their livlihood from so doing; to the taxpayers who bear the shot beirto we are talkino 130 cent Newfoundland dollars. These no longer are shared costs as such due to the ending of the old system of shared costs and the institution of the established pro- gramme financing grants which we now qet, and most: importantly, to the people who must look to those doctors paid by those taxpayers for their medical services.

And there I would simply say to the minister again,beause I think it is a crucial problem,that the disparity is getting worse. The people of this Province are not gettinq a fair and equal medical service and it is gettino worse and worse and worse all the time,and this soney will not help. In fact,this money may make it worse,it will help the doctors but it will not help the distribu- tion of doctors throuchout the Province and that L5 where the sinister ought to he Putting his attention now, Sir. SOME HON. HOMBEPS: Hear, heart

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 764 NM - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS. MR. SPEAKER (Sirvns) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESCN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Premier a queston,please? Given the statement which we heard earlier this afternoon, when he has had an opportunity, he and his colleagues, to look into the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, has he in mind any kind of procedure whereby it may be possible for us in this House, either through a concurrence debate on the report on in some other manner, to discuss and to learn in detail what the proposals are he is referring to? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFOPD: Mr. Speaker, number one, as it relates to the Minister of Finance, and the things that were mentioned in the Public Accounts Report for the year 1978, that have to do with the Department of Finance, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will answer those on those recommendations immediately, within the next two or three days.

The Minister of Finance is now preparing a detailed reply dealing with all the items that rome under his department because since 1978 to 1980 we have implemented a lot of changes, and since March last year to now, have implemented a lot as a result of actions we took last year after the Auditor Generals Report for that particular year. The Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.

Brett) will answer as it relates to the helicopter hire because it is old news in the sense that the helicopter contract was signed, the Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee legitimately criticizad the number of ways in which that helicopter contract was being administered ,and we have tightened that up substantially and the sinistCr will give specific ways in which we have done that. As it relates to the Public Tender Act, and tha was not in my statement, but after the Cabinet has a chance

April 15, 1930 Tape No. 764 NM - 2 PREMIER ?ECMFORD: to review the recommendations of the Committees I am quite prepared to permit, or have the House debate, if you will, the recommendations and possible changes that could be made to the Public Tender Act with a veiw to strengthening it. I think the only qualificaticn I would put on it is it is not a matter of whether there would be a debate or not, in my view it is a matter of understanding that we will nevet be able to legislate every particular situation.

But there may be various measures that can be brought in which would tighten up the Public Tender Act and be in the best interest of the Province totally so to do.

I have tried myself since March last year, August and again today as a result of this report, to tighten it up as much as I can with the existing legislation by requiring every department, if it has any doubt at all about whether the Public Tender Act is being contravened, to get a legal opinion in writing so that before any award or lack of award occurs that kind of tangible evidence will be there to support or otherwise condemn the department for the kind of action that they took. MR. SPEAKRR (Simms) A suPplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opoosition. MR. JAMIEBON: Just one supplementary.

I can understand and appreciate the fact that

April 15,I9E0 Tape No. 765 AH-1 MR. JAMIESON: ministers will be making specific statements, What I had in mind was indeed that it is conceivable at least tnat a debate prior to the conclusion of the government's judgement as to what appropriate actions are desirable-and I am talking in the broader field. I am not speaking of any specific incident or anything at this time. Whether in fact'debate may be the word but that in some way or other as I believe - I am not sure if it has been done in this legislature before or not but it is entirely - MR. ROBERTS: It is the first time we have had a real (inaudible) MR.

J_MIESON: I think it is the first time we have had it in this form, that if it were by concurrence,or in some other way, we could have a discussion and a debate upon the substance of the report itself. MR. ROBE?TS: It would have to be a concurrence debate. MR. JAMIESON: A concurrence debate, I think, is the appropriate term -I will leave that to the House Leader on my s±d- - but something along that line that would enable us to get more than will come from,unquestonably,the one or, one sort of Ministerial Statement and reply approach. MR. SPEAKER (Sirens) : The don, the Premter.

PREMIER ?ECKFORD: Number one, I think it is significant that the Leader of the Opposition acknowledges that it is under this administration it is the first time that they have had this kind of a report produced. T think that that is a wonderful thing and that it should be continued.

And secondly by the same token the: sometimes ministers and myself do not give notice to the Oppcsiticn a:out certain matters of ministerial and governmental import are to be announced through a Ministerial Statement, I did not anticipate that the Leader of the 0000eitton would ask that particular question about a general concurrence debate as et relates to that particular report. Obviously now under the rules tf the Mouse there is room for debate of that report 1 /

April 15,1980 Tape No. 765 AH-2 PREMIER PECKEORD: and many other thincs under the Budcet Speech which will be called and all hon. members will have an opportunity to debate,wide- rangingly,if you wilito use an unusual Phrase, to debate that and many other things. But I will take under advisement the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition for a full-ranging concurrence debate on that particular report and give the hon. member an answer in due course, within the next week or so.

But there are obviously under the rules now a lot of ways in which members can debate especially the Budget Speech, can debate this kind of debate. But I will not say that the government is against it;obviously I will take that matter under advisement not knowing in advance that the Leader of the Opposition was going to ask that kind of question and want a sort of an immediate answer from me today. MR. SPEAKER (Sirrms) : The hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR. ROKE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a guestion for the :!inister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) regarding quite an extraordinary and serious and sad situation with respect to the Fisheries Loan Board where we have still quite a number of fishermen in this Province who have no indication of whether or not their applications are going to be approved this year or not and they are already trying to get into the fishing season which has opened up in many areas of the Province. Could the minister, Sir, indicate

April 15, 1980 Tape 766 EC - 1 MR. F. ROWE: how many applications are now on file and how many have been approved, and how many have been approved in the last several weeks or the last nnth? And would he undertake, Sir, to direct the Fisheries Loan Board to indicate to these fishermen, who have applications in, a definite yes or no if at all possible so they will have some idea of where they stand and where they would have to go, to a chartered bank or keep on waiting for some reply from the Fisheries Loan Board? MR. SPEAX,ER (Simms) The non, the Minister of Fisaeries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am unable to give the details with regard to the number of applications at this time, but I will attempt to get the information for the House in the next few days. The Loan Board is now dealing with as many applications as possible under the interim financing programme until the Budget Estimates are approved fr the Fisheries Departmentr this season. And, of course, as soon as the Estimates are approved in the House of Assembly, the new funds allocated can be spent by the Loan Board.

The applications that are being dealt with now are the ones that have been screened and processed by the board along the lines of dealing with hardship cases, fishermen who have boats with no engines or engine problems or boats that need new gear and these are the applications getting priority at this rime, during the montn of April.

Of course, we are hoping the Estimates will be approved around the end of April or early May and then, of course, there is a new amount of funding allocated and they can carry on with dealing with all the applications, screening them and checking out for more information, checking on the federal subsidies and getting as many as possible approved. with regard to the chartered banks, the fishecnen have been made quite aware througfl the Fishermen's Union at two different meetings and, in fact, one again this afternoon with the Fisnerrn's Union and yesterday afternoon witn eignty-five fisdernen and their unions from different parts of the Province aere in St. ohns - one again this afternoon - and they have been made quite aware that the chartered banks are only going to be dealing with loans over 5C ,303 - 2

April 15, 1980 Tape 766 SC - 2 MR. F. WE: That is rignt. MR. J. MORGAN: - which means, of course, you are dealing with new boats, larger boats, primarily in the range of 35 feet to 65 feet. So the fishermen around the Province, I think, are being made aware through the regaor.al offices; we have asked them to maRe contact with the fishermen who have applied for loans, giving this information to them, telling them that their application, if it is a hardship case, will be dealt with now and all others will be dealt with as soon as possible after the new funds are allocated for the coming year. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: That is not quite the way I am hearing it from the fishermen, Mr. Speaker. I am wondering if the minister would indicate - I do not know if he can Supply the exact number, but is the Fisheries Loan Soard actually turning down loan applications now - obviously, the minister has indicated that they are approving hardship cases only for this month. Would the minister indicate what criteria are being used in order to identify a hardship case?

Secause I have had quite a number of representations made to me where people in some cases are having loans approved and others are not and they have no knowledge whatsoever of what exactly a hardship case is. So the message is not getting through to tne fisnermen as to what a hardship case is and I am wondering if the minister ;ouid give the hon. House,

April 15, iggO rape No. 767 NM - 1 MR. F. RC;cE: fir, the criteria that are being used for identifying a hardship case. MR. SPEAKER Simms The Non. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, we have been working in close liaison in co-ordination with the Fishermen's Union, and of course the Fishermen's Union is also in a position to relay all information to the fishermen who are the members throughout the Province. In fact,I arranged approximately a month ago to ask the union to appoint a delegate in this case Mr.

Ray Greening was appointed by the union, to work with the officials of the Department of Fisheries in drafting up new regulations and operation procedures for the board. So Mr. Greening, on behalf of the fishermen, is there working with the officials of the Department of Fisheries. So the union is fully aware of what we term hardship cases It is a case where a man, a fisherman, has a boat he cannot use for some reason. It could be a reason because of equipment needed on the boat or there could be a need for a new engine. That is a hardship case.

In other words a case wnere a fisherman has a boat or equipment and be needs some extra equipment to get him back in the fishery. But of course that would not apply in a case where a man has a boat now, can go fishing in a thirty-five foot boat and he has applied for a forty-five foot boat. That would not be a hardship case. He has a boat to go fishing already this season and he can go and use a thirty-five foot boat and we wculu not,therefcre process the application for a forty-five foot boat at this time, not until the new funds are allocated.

So the criteria we are using for harfship cases have been thrashed out and agreed upon by the Fishermen's Union on behalf of the fishermen and I must say that right now, from the field offices around the Province, and we have different fieli offices, that we have instructed them cc make sure that as many as possible of the acpl1cants that we have on file, that these field officers contact them and give them

April 15, 1980 Tape Nc. 767 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: all the information regarding what the board is doing at the present time, and what the plans are of the board in the future. MR. F. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sioxus) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for Trinity-Bay be Verde, followed by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. F. ROME: Mr.

Speaker, I can give the minister an example of where hardship cases are being produced and that is where the Fisheries Loan Board is informing fishermen that their application will be approved when the appraiser or the inspector gets around to look at the boat that he is going to buy or is in the process of being built. Now that is holding up a great number of applications.

Would the minister indicate to the House, Sir, how many appraisers or inspectors, whatever you call them, we have in this Province for the purpose of going around and inspecting or appraising these boats in order to get the word back to the Fisheries Loan Board to approve these applications? In my opinion they are cuite insufficient, the number of these bodies around to appraise boats and it is causing delay in the processing of the loans. Would the minister indicate the number of appraisers or inspectors there are and would he give some consideration to increasing the number of appraisers that go around?

And also in answering that ueacon, I would like him to answer one further one, Sir, and that is of the 58 million that

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 768 SD - 1 MR. F. ROWE: has been voted for the Fisheries Loan fund this Year, would the minister indicate how much of that $8 million has already been committed and how much is left to spend for applications that are before the Loan Board? MR. SPEAWER (Sirms) The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Well, to answer to the first question, Mr.

Speaker, the oroblem of inspection of boats whereby loans are approved and then subject to an inspection being carried out that point is well taken and it is well taken with government on the basis that there is a definite need for increased numbers of inspectors. Unfortunately, we have had a very major problem in recruiting qualified inspectors from the Province and we do not know why.

We have advertised a number of times; in fact, if you noticel recently there were advertisements in the local paper no later than last week again advertising for vessel inspectors, electrical inspectors, hull inspectors and we are having a difficult time in recruiting qualified inspectors. We have been emphasizing getting if at all possible qualified Newfoundlanders.If the most recent ad which was placed as of last week, if that ad is not successful in recruiting cualified applicants in Newfoundland,we will have no choice but qo outside.

It is the last resort to go outside the Province,but it seem like we will have to to get an adequate nujitber on staff of qualified inspectors. Now, the second 3art of the guestion was in connectxcn with - MR. F. ROWE: How much of the $8 million - MR. J. McRG. - the $8 million. Well, that will be all new applications. There are no commitments given now on that new funding for this year, In fact, we can not do thac, the hon. gentleman should realize that. We can not spend next years allocation of funds this year.

And until the estimates are approved in the House and the funds allocated to departments officially by the House of Assembly, that is the procedure we all know, that the

Ari1 15, 1980 Tape No. 768 SD - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: funds are not committed for the coming year. So what I am saying is that the $8 million will mean the processing of new applications, applications on file now but they will be processed and the new funds allocated to these apPlicants. MR. T. 3ENNE: Supplementary to the Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirrms) Supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. T.

BENNETT: Regarding the hardship case, I have had communications from a constituent who informs me that last year he borrowed $3,000 to get himself into the fishery - $3,000 from the bank - in order that he could acquire a $12,000 valued boat through the Fisheries Loan Board. $1,350 went against his loan to the Fisheries Loan Board. In the middle of the season he lost his oncine, consequently lost a great deal of gear euipir.ent, presently owes the Fisheries Loan Board 5965 and is asking for a $3,000 loan from the Fisheries Loan Board that he might get back into the fisher! for this season.

I am wondering if this is a hardship case, if this can be described as a hardship case? The gentleman tells me that at the present time his boat would probably be valued at the bank as is for about $2,000 if tho 7 isheries Loan Board foreclosed and put it on the market. They would probably recapture $2,000 where they have in essence S12.000 invested in the boat, and he is having real problems.

He owes the bank nearly $3,000 because of his original loan to get into it, he bought radar equipment independent of his loans from the Fisheries Loan Board which will go away from the boatit seems because it is not built into the agreement with the boat. And I am wondering if this gentleman can now make a claim under this special hardship case, Nr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 1

Acril 15, 1980 TaDe No. 768 CD - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me from listening to the hon. gentleman and the information he supplied in askinc his auestion that that could be very well considered a hardship case. And I will be glad to meet with him after the Question Period and get the name of the gentleman concerned from the hon. gentleman and pass it on to the Loan Board Chairman, have it checked out and see if he can get the application approved. MR. SPSAKER (Simms) The hon. member for Torngat Mountains,followed by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. C. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. N. House) . In respect to the budget that out1inemergency air transportation, I notice from the budget that it did not specify what date this subsidy was going to become effective. Could the minister advise the House of what time it will become effective?

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 769 EL - 1 MR. SFEAKER (SiIrms) : The hon. the Mi!,ister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain. I would presume it becomeffective, I do not know if it is September or not. I would have to get a look at that now. It will be September of next year or as of when the Budget comes downthe first of April. I want to point Out that the full details of the whole matter have not been worked out yet.

You know, we have been talking about erneraency airlifts so far and I think when we discussed the matter here in the House in the Private Members Bill, we discussed the same kind of operation on the Island. So, I want to take note of what time we are bringing it into effect. I believe it is right now, at the beginning of the fiscal year but I have to take a check on it. In the meantime, I would also point Out that we have not worked out the details of the matter as yet through government. MR. SPEAKER (Simos) : A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. C. WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the minister has been very evasive in his answer. AN. HON. MEER: Look at wnac he is up against. MR. C. WARREN: He is saying maybe it is the fiscal year,which was fifteen days agoor maybe it is another four months down the road. Why does not the minister go on the public media and tell the people who are concerned when it is acing to be? I am having calls from every district, in particular every district in Labrador,asking me, Is it in effect now. Will it be in effect next year or will it be in effect fzur years down the road? like a lot of other things in the Budget.

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 769 EL - 2 MR. G. WARREN: Mr.Speaker, the minister is saying that not too many details are in line yet in this emergency air transportation subsidy. I just came back from Labrador and I have heard through the media down there that there are some things going on concerning this gr'ergency transportation. And one thing which was announced is it is possible that residents would have to pay the a].rllnes themselves first and be reimbursed by the government later.

I wculd like to know if the minister could confirm if that is one of the possibilities that they are looking into 7 If so, I can tell him now that it is not very much comparable to the Island portion of the Province. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the general policy was that we would be paying for the emergency airlifts in the Province, the Sudget Speech announced that. The details of what would be done would be worked Out through government. It has not been done yet and I will notify - there has been no notification given anybody in Labrador as to the procedure, except that it will be coming into effect this year.

MR. SPEAKER (Sirms) : A final supplementary, the hon. Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It is going to come into effect this year; this year runs from April 1st to March 31st next year, probably March 30th next year we may see it is possible what the minister is saying now. You know, we have already had two cases since the 1st of April that had to come out to St. Johns. There may be many more cases before the minister comes up with an official date.

I would also like to ask the minister, in his deliberatior9on how this subsidy will work, if a person is required to come out to the hospital or the Island and he has to pay his transportation out here and once he does recuperate, is he left on his own now to get back the best way he can or is he ooir.c a re of getting back

april 15, 1980 Tape Ho. 769 EL - 3 M.R. G. cARREN: to his home town? MR. SPEAKER (Sirms) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR.W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, these are part of the details, these are part of the details and if we work it the same way we work in the ambulance, we will be working it the same way we would on the island portion of the Province. And the details have not been worked out.

I mentioned that.Wben we make a general statement of policy that we are going to implement a service, we have to go through government procedures for the details and that will be done and I will get that to the hon. gentleman as soon as it is complete. MR. SPEPKER (Sioms) : The hon. the Member for Port au Port. MR. J. H000ER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the vjnister of Lands and Forests(C.Power) . Mr. Speaker, due to the high cost of electricity in the Province, particularly in roral areas, an awful lot of people have been cutting wood at an alarming rate, in many areas of the Province.

Particularly, I would point out,in my Own di.strict of port au Port, which the foresters tell ine is in a terrible situation,and I am told as well that the Avalon Peninsula, the Fogo area, Twillingate, a lot of those areas of the Province are having problems with the domestic, or should I say the community wood suoplyand I was wondering if the minister had any statistics on what

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 770 - 1 MR. NODDER: the length of time of the wood supplies are in wood iota in adjacent areas to communities in the Provincer MR. SPEAKER (Siams) : The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. POKER: Mr. Speaker, generally speaking, obviously in the last five or six years the trend back toward wood burning sources of energy, stoves and what have you, has been an extremely popular type of trend. Still we are not in a stage in Newfoundland, I would not think, today where we have as many wood burning stoves today as there were twenty years ago.

In certain areas of the Province our wood inventory possibly is being depleted, but not to the level that some persons are saying that it is. Maybe in the Port au Port area there is a problem. I have asked my foresters to check on a public statement made by the member the other day.

But again the situation as it relates to Newfoundland, we have in Newfoundland over SO million cords of wood, approximately 100,000 acres per year are used in domestic use and, again looking at those inventory amounts of 80 million cords as in relationship to maybe 100,000 cords which might be used locally and domestically, it seems that we have a very adequate wocd supply for a very large amount of time.

In certain given locales in the Province,it may be in the Avalon for instance we are having a problem, not so much with the wood inventory but the fact that the indiscriminate cutting by persons along every aide road that is on the Avalon which is causing the foresters some concern because cartarn areas are being depleted when certain other areas should be accessible to the public and should be used more efficiently and more wisely. MR. hCCDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER. A supplementary, the hon. member for Port su Port. MR. KEDDER: Mr.

Speaker, in listening to the minister's answer, cannot seem - he says there is an awful lot of wood in :ewfoundland, there are sufficisrt inventories - 1k.RJSER:S: All in tne arort places. 4.

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 770 NM - 2 MR.

NODDER: I think that the problers is that the wood in adjacent communities, the small communities in rural areas, that is the wood that is used for the building of the boat, the building of a house, with the high cost of fuel today and that sort of thing, you cannot expect them to drive from one area, a long distance, to another area, And what we are finding - I see those community wood supplies as being sort of the heritage of that community and I would ask the minister if he would give any consideration to developing community wood reserves 1 and I am thinking particularly in terms of replanting the forest for those particular communities, for those particular areas, replenishing the forest by replanting techniques and perhaps I would ask the minister if he would consider that perhaps we should teach people proper cutting procedures because the general fellow who goes and buys a wood stove and goes out to cut wood, he is not necessarily trained in any form of wood cutting, to leave every fifth tree or whatever.

Perhaps we should have some sort of education programme. And another question I would ask him to address himself to when he stands is whether he considers that the fact that now that the electrical rates are higher because the Public Utilities Board allowed Newfoundland Light and Power to put the rates higher on electric users, if this not going to encourage more people to get into wood stoves and out more problems and pressures on the wood reserves. KR. ROBERTS: Carried. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the first portion of the guestion as it relates to the heritage wood supply artund communities, if you want to call it that, obviously as the demand for wood and wood supplies around the community becomes greater and greater, of necessity it is going to mean that persons living in those communities and going to have to go some greater distance from borne in order to pet an adequate supply of wood. That has always I.. -

April 15, 1350 Tape No. 770 NM - 3 .?CWER: happened in Newfoundland. It happened in my tather's day, my grandfathers day. As you cut out wood close to a community, you have to move farther away. Now reforestation is one possible solution, an assitance to that. But as the member made an announcement the other day talking about a ten year problem down the road, obviously reforestation is not going to solve that problem. If we are going to plant trees they are not going to be harvestable for about thirty-five or forty or fifty years. And that is the type of planning that we have to get involved in.

We in Newfoundland have a really active reforestation programme, primarily in association with our industries. We this year will be planting over 1 million seedlings and we are hoping that we will have a programme in place that five years down the road we will be planting in excess of 5 million seedlings. So there will certainly be an adequate wood supply fifty or sixty years down the road. There may very well be a problem with wood supply in the short term, and the mid term because of this great demand in wood stoves.

With regard to the education procedurea of cutting of trees and how to properly proceed with burning procedures and what have you, the Department of Mines and Energy does put out a brochure telling persons about how to burn wood safely in their homes. And certainly I agree with the

April 15, 1980 Tape 771 EC - 1 MR. C. POWER: member that tnavbe an education programme might be necessary to teach persons in the Province that they just cannot go in and cut every tree of any diameter and any size in a given locale. MR. C. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. C.

HODDER: I keep noting that the minister keeps referring to the large inventories of wood, but when you lock again - and I want to Stress again-when you look at the wood supplies in a very large number of communities in this Province, that large inventory that we have across the Province,including commercial lands, is just not available to them. And I think the minister would agree that the community wood supply is part of their heritage. But my question, Mr.

Speaker, is in looking over the ministers statement on the Royal Commission which was appointed yesterday in the House, and looking at the terms of reference, there is no specific terms of reference to look into this particular problem, although it could be implied in perhaps term of reference (

e) where there might be broad public input. The others seem to deal with health and the forest industry. Could the minister not out another term of reference in there to look at this whole problem of domestic wood supplies? Because, Mr. Speaker, we cannot tell people that they cannot cut wood. We cannot tell them that they cannot cut the wood supply alongside their place, but we can help them to preserve it and we can make sure that we help them with reforestation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the enquiry as to whetner we will nave the Royal Commission examine commercial and domestic wood stocks, again, I do not think tnat is an aspect of the Royal Commission. It has been set up only in the broad sense that they will be looking at the full utilization of our forestry sector and again, the domestic sector will be considered in that, but only as secondary and not as the primary purpose of tOe ROyal Commission. 1

April 15, 1980 Tape 771 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please The time for Oral Question period has expired. I wish to welcome to the gallery on behalf of all hon. members, Mayor Richard McDonald and councillors, Aiphonsus Carroll and Kevin Piercey from the town of St. George's in the district of St. George's. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARPY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to file the statutory report required under

Section 32 of the Mineral Act (1976) setting out the various claims which have been staked in the Province in the period April 1, 1979 to March 31, 1980 and covering some 250,000 acres. MR. SPEAKER: Further reports? The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. N. HOUSE:

Section 43, Mr. Speaker, of the Workers' Compensation Act, requires that the annual report be tabled in the Legislature by April 15th. I wish to hereby table the 1979 report. ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, that the House resolve itself into Comaittee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMIrPEE OF SUPPLY MR. ChAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please Head 1, Consolidated Fund Services. MR.S. MERRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Lapoile. MR.S. MERRY: Mr.

Chairman, yesterday when I made a very valid point in connection with lawyers who sit in the Cabinet serving two interests, serving two masters, in this case, the Bank of Montreal - which is no fault of the Bank of Montreal, by the way; the Sank of Montreal

April 15, 1980 Tape 771 EC - 3 MR. S. NEARY: is entitled to hire whatever lawyers they want. If they want to hire the hon. the member for St. Johns East, the President of the Council (Mr. W. Marshall) , that is up to themselves, but it is up to the hon. member for St. John's East, the President of the Council, to decide ), L

April 15th., 1960 Tape No. 772 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: whether or not it is ethical to sit in the Cabinet at the same time he represents the govern- rnent's bankers,namely the Bank of Montreal. Now when I raised this matter yesterday I raised itif non, members will recall in the form of a question. I asked the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to tell the House if it was indeed the policy of this government, if the Minister of Finance and the admin- istration felt that it was wise to have a minister or two sitting in the Cabinet at the same time they represented the govern- ments bankers.

I wanted to know from the Minister of Finance if in his opinion this sort of arrangement was indeed • conflict of interest situation. Now, Mr. Chairman, I did not get • reply from the Minister of Finance but I got a scolding from the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the culprit in this particular instance. And the hon. gentleman got up, Mr. Chairman, and more or less through his - in his usual nasty manner tried to leave the impression that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who he considers to be dirt under his feet, attempted to smear him.

All I did was ask a Question in the beginning and I got no reaction and no response from the government ber,ches,and then I had go a little further and I eventually provoked the gentleman to standing up and con- fessing, he confessed to this House that indeed he does represent the Bank of Montreal at the same time he is sitting in the Cabinet. And it really does not matter if he is a part-time minister or a full-time minister, he is indeed a minister. And I got scolded for it, Sir, reprimanded for it by the hon. gentleman and I was told that I am less than nothing. Well now, Sir.

I will the House this, that I could not care less what the hoc, gentleman thinks about me. If he does not think that I am in his social class if he does not think that I am real true blue blood like hmself,I could not care less The fact of the matter is,

April 15th , 1980 Tape No. 772 DW 2 MR.S.NEAR?: Sir, that I was so mad I was boiling over when I heard that hon. gentleman make a state- ment when indeed I sat in this House.

And I have to say, Sir, that one of the rottenest, one of the slimiest, one of the nastiest things that you could do in this House - you could even oet away with criticizing the church in this House - but about the slimiest thing you could do was attack somebody's mother.And I happened to be sitting in this House when that same hon. gentleman who scolded me because I am trying to do my job on behalf of the people of this Province, because I am trying to see that the Public Treasury is protected that I am trying to see that nobody is in a conflict of interest situation and I am scolded because I am not in the hon. gentleman's social class, I do not hobnob around St.

John's with his kind of people so I am less than nothing, anybody who does nOt do that should be wiped out, they do not exist as far as the hon. gentleman is concerned - and then he decides he wants to get nasty about it - and that same hon. gentle- man in this House did about one of the rottenest things that I have ever seen in my siobteen years in this House and that was to insult a member's mother and that is the rottenest thing you could do as far as I am concerned in this House.

That same hon. gentleman, if the hon. member will recall who is scolding me now because I am trying to smear him trying to do my job for the peonle of this Province, was the same hon. gentleman who took a minister to task because 'le was being looked into by a commission in connection with the Port de Grave town coUflCll. The gentleman was later exonerated, but he had to resign from the Caoinet.

pril 15th., 180 Tape No. 772 DW - 3 NP.. S. NEARY: And that same gentleman, Mr. Chairman had his name on a share list of Metro Engineering, Mr. A.B. Walsh's comoany, and stood in this House and told us that it was Only a qualifying share and this is allowed under the Companies Act. And also, Mr. Chairman, this same gentleman,who now wants to try to belittle me,is the same gentleman who had a trust fund down in his office at the Royal Trust Building on behalf of Charbonneau Associates, which is the crowd that swindled the insurance company that swindled the taxi drivers in this city.

Anril 15,1980 Tape No. 773 AN-i MR. NEARY: The same hon. aentleman is now trying to smidge,in his nasty way,trying to belittle me because I am not a member of his social class. That hon. gentleman has gotten away with too much, Mr. Chairman. He can stand up in his pious way in this House and say, "oh, I am the only honourable, decent man in this House, the only member of integrity in this House." And the news media up there in the press gallery overhead have swallowed it, they take it hook, line and sinker. 'Oh,the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) criticized his own party yesterday or today,when he was over there, when the Moore's administration was here' they lap it up. They never bother to listen to the real member for St. John's East. Thank God, I have a good memory. I can sit here and I can remember everything that happened in this House from the first day I arrived here.I did not smear the hon. gentleman. I merely asked some questions.

And then I am scolded by a member who got up and did one of the slimiest, rottenest things I have ever seen done in this House and probably in any other jurisdiction in the world and that was to criticize a member's mother, and he got a clink in the side of the jaw for doing it. A member had to go across the House. That was the only defence he had, this member, and give him a belt in the side of the chops and I happened to be here when it happened. It is a good thing I have a good memory, Mr. Chairman.

And now he can stand up, this ton. mamber can stand up and say, "Yes, I represent the Sank of Montreal but I abstain myself from any decisions. Whenever the matters come up involving the government's bankers I abstain myself. I have never done anything wrong." Nobody said the hon. gentleman did anything wrong except that he has placed himself in a conflict of interost situation. That is what he is doing wrong .And I am tempted, Mr.

Chairman, I am tempted to lodge an official complaint to the Newfoundland Law Soc iet1. hey were so quick to do it - one of the members sitting over there was - o quick to do it about my col1eagueand now I am tempted to do it to see what they think about ethical practices and what they think of la'ers1 of cosir nerabers voen toe that reroer abcud cs

April 13,1980 Taps No. 773 AH-2 MR. NEARY: so scrupulous about not placing himself in a conflict of interest situation, what they think of the hon. gentleman sitting as a Cabinet rinister in a public position, in a position of public trust and at the same time representing a client that is doing business with the government, namely the government's bankers. And I want to make it clear this is not a condemnation of the Bank of Montreal. It is a condemnation of the hon. gentleman and the Premier of this Province who today made one of the biggest mistakes of his life when he got up there. There are times, Mr.

Chairman, there are times when party solidarity comes into play and today was not one of them . The Premier has not yet reacted to my charges that the hon. - and I am making charges today, I never made any charges yesterds- - that the President of the Council, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) , a senior minister in the government, is in a conflict of interest situation.

And if the Premier is going to brush that aside like he brushed aside the Public Accounts Committee report today, then I would say that Newfoundland and the Newfoundland people better take a good hard look at his sincerity and his integrity and his honesty. There has finally been a crack in his armour. He is going to pick and choose when it effects his administration, when it lands on his door- step. If it effects Frank Moores that is different. Mhen it lands on his own doorstep,chen he chooses to come to the rescue and the protection of the culprits.

That is the kind of integrity and honesty and openess we are getting in this government. And I say it is wrong and it is improper and probably illegal for the President of the Council, the member for St. John's East (Mr. MarshalU to sit in the Cabinet and at the same time represent the government's bankers. I understand my 2

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 774 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: ten minutes are up, Sir. If I can get one of my colleagues up for a minute, I will get up and have another go at this situation. On motion, Clauce 105-03-05 and Clause 105-03-08 carried. On ttion Head 1 - Consolidated Fund Services carried. MR. N. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. N. MARSHALL: Before you call Head II, I think it might be an idea, I think it would be a value to the Committee if the Committee were informed what the situation is with respect of the time under the Standing Orders for the estimates.

Now, according to my calculations there were sixteen headings referred to committees themselves which would bring it up to fifty-seven hours there in committees. There is three hours for the concurrence debates,which will come afterwards, which are nine and then there is the time spent for interim aupply and to date, but I think it might be a value to the Committee members, I do not kncw '.'hether the rest of the Committee agrees with me , if before we proceeded not counting this time when you are counting it up if, Mr.

Chairman, you took the advice of the officers of the Table and told us how much time is left because there are two other headings. There is Legislative and Executive to be heard in the Committee of the Whole, and I think it would be beneficial for the members to know. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it would be beneficial to all parties concerned. Pursuant to Standing Order 116 (1) "Consideration of supply is confined to seventy-five hours.

This includes consideration both in Committee of Supply and in the main estirtates and interim supply." As well, pursuant to Standing Order 119 12), 'For each department referred to in the estimates Cossnittee, three hours is deducted from the period of debate i: 2' "

April 15, 180 Tape No. 774 SD - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Sutt) : the Committee of Supply. The times used so far are as follows - that will be excluding the prior ten minutes we went through today - interim supply, two hours and fifty minutes; the main estimates, yesterday's debate really,,-as one hour and fifty-five minutes; and the sixteen departments referred to in the estimates committees - three hours for department for forty-eight hours That give a total of fifty-two hours and forty-five minutes. So the remaining time in the Committee of Supply in the House is twenty-two hours and fifteen minutes.

Of this time , three hours may be used for concurrence debates on the reports from the estimate committees. MR. N. MARSHALL: I think that is nine hours, Mr. Chairman, I think it is three hours - MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, yes, three hours - MR. N. MARSHALL: - per committee and there are three committees so that will be nine hours. MR. CHAIRMAN: - and three committees, okay, Resource, Estimates and Services. MR. N. MARSHALL: So that gives you an idea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. Legislative - Head It. The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, just a very brief word on this merely to say that traditionally this head is the responsibility or at least presented to the Committee by the Minister of Finance although it deals with the elected representatives of the House and, of course, the hon. Speaker is, shall we say, the head in that respect. it also deals with the Auditor General's report or division and it aLso deals with the Parliamentary Commissioner, more commenly known as the Ombudsman.

I have the details available to Ire 00 the items in their various estimates and I do not orot'ose at this time to make any general statement on them but I will be willing to answer arv questions that I am able to do so. 2:' '

April 15, IDSO Tape No. 774 SD - 3 R. CHAIPYN: (Dutt) The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JkMIESON: Mr. Chairman, we are quite prepared to allow this vote to go through without any discussion. I do not know, though,if the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) is farriliar as to - I realize the Ombudsman is an officer of the House. Is there any provision for other than his written report? I presume that if members wished to have him called as a witness or appear before a committee or something, I presume that could be done.

It is a matter of curiosity on my part as to whether or not the Ombudsman identifies with the Legislature in any way other than his written annual report. Would the minister know MR. CHAIPNAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: I perhaps cannot give a very authoritative answer to that. My understand though is that he

April 15, 1980 Tare No. 775 NM - 1 DR. 0. COLLINS: reports to the House of Assembly and my only function in this regard really is to stand in his place in preseotino his estimates. MR. JANIESCN: Carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) The hon. member for Port an Port. MR. NODDER: Mr. Chairman, I believe we are talking about the subheading under the Ombudsman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Hell, Legislative, yes. Head II. MR. NODDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I made a few comments last year at this time and the Ombudsman then caine back publicly and refuted some of them, but there is one thing, and I do not intend to spend only just a moment, that there is still, in my opinion, and I am certainly sure in the opinion of other members, there is still not sufficient knowledge throughout the Province, perhaps in St. John's but now in the rural outports, of the function of the Ombudsman. And I do believe that the Ombudsman has at times sent out to certain areas of the Province, sent Out some information about his office, but I found, Mr.

Chairman, that any problems of any major nature which has come up in my area of the Province,anf I will not say my district but in my area of the Province, that these pecple are more likely to send it off to what used to be the - I believe it is not in existence any more, I think they had the last prograimne the other night, but the CBC Ombudsman, and I am wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if it would not be perhaps to the advantage of the Ombudsman's Office and the Ombudsman himself, to again, and I guess this is the second time I have called on him to do this, but again to make his services known throughout the Province. Because just a few days ago I met with a group of workers in Steohenville, and my hon. friend from Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) knows about the situation, who had a problem with severance pay and their first reaction was to go to the Ombudsman in Ottawa, nct to the Provincial Ombudsman, and I know f where I speak when I say that has office and his functions are not well known throughout

Atril 15, 1980 Tape No. 775 NM - 2 MR. NODDER: Newfoundland and I would like to see more publicity and I would like to see perhaps every Newfoundlander in one way or other to be informed through whichever way the Ombudsman wishes to do it to be informed Cf his services and the fact that he is there ready to mediate problems of our rural Newfoundlanders. M.R. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. MERRY: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has provoked me, motivated me into getting up to have a few words on this particular subhead, especially about the Ombudsman.

First of all I want to deal with the Department of the Auditor General. I would like to ask the minister if the Auditor General now has the staff that is required to do the job for the people of this Province? For a few years there was some problem with staffing the Auditor General's Department. He never seemed to have enough staff to do all the things that needed to be done and there was an outstanding request for additional staff.

I would like to know now where the Auditor General is housed, where his offices are, how many staff he has, if he has sufficient staff to do the audits that needs to be done and how often, Mr. Chairman, how often do they do an audit? We are told in the Auditor General's Report that he merely does a spot check. Now in these spot checks recently, and the spot checks that the Auditor General did last year, he picked up a number of examples of what could only be called corruption, dealing with McConnell Advertising and the former Premier of this ?rovince. Now that was picked up merely by spot checking.

Is it possible, Mr. Chairmen, and I throw this out as a question to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Os It possible that there are in the records in the Department of Finance and in other departments in Confederation Building, there are other examples of corruption and wrongdcing? If the Auditor General can pick op a few examples of wrongdoing and corruption by merely spot checking, would it cot be advisabbe, in crier cc Protect the Public Treasury of this Province,

April 15th., 1980 Tape Nc. 776 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: that the Auditor General be given additional staff so that he can do more than spot check. We just came through seven years of corruption in this Province that the administration wants to blot out as if it never happened. They jump over seven years to criticize the previous, previous administration, the Smallwood administrationthey jump over seven years of cor- ruption to do that. Hon. members may not have been sittinq in the House dmring that seven years, but that does not make any difference;it is still a continuation of the same government.

And we saw today, Mr. Chairman, the greatest example of hypocrisy we have even seen in this hon. House. MR. STAGG: That is unparliamentary. MR. S. NEARY: No, that is parliamentary. but when you refer to an individual member then it is unparliamentary, but when you are referring to the government colectivelv and their policies it is perfectly in order to say that it is the lowest form of hypocrisy. MR. STAGG: That is unparliamentary. MR. S. MEAPY No, it is not unparliamentary. If it was Your Honour would bring me to task.

I have been long enough in this House now to know when I am parlia- mentary and when I unparliamentarv,and I am on pretty safe and solid oround wter. I say that the policy of the admiris- tration. their ohiloscphy is hypocritical. And we saw an example cf it today when the Public Accounts Committee reportino on the Auditor Generals report, unanimously found the former Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Morgan) cuilty of breaking the laws of this Province.

They sat in judoement they heard evidence ,and four members on that side of the House and three members on this side of the ouse found the hon. oen:leman oull:'. Ind the Iremier

April 15th., 1980 Tape Mo. 776 DW - 2 MR. S. NARY: of the Province gets up and says, Well, we are sorry it happened and we are going to see that it does not happen again', and that is it. Well,if I were an hon. gentleman on that public Accounts Committee,I would be clamcuring for a greater decision than that,because, Mr. Chairman, never again can the people of this Province have any faith or confidence in their Public Accounts Committee. The Premier has reduced it, reduced it to nothing. It is just a farce It may as well not exist.

They took the uditor General's report, they investigated the wrong- doing that was pointed out in that report, they came to the conclusion that the former Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Morgan) was guilty and the Premier shrugs it off and brushes it off by saying, 'Well, we are sorry we have sinned but we will see to it that it does not happen again'. What kind of justice is that? That is the double standard that this hon. crowd have been noted for in this province since 1972, setting double standards.

And the Premier gets up and camouflages the issue by saying, 'I am goinq to have an open government, there is 00mg to be honesty and integrity - MR. STAGG: That is not relevant, Nr. Chairman. MR. S. NE?RY: It is relevant, We are talkino about the Auditor General's department. 4R. STAGG: (Inaudible). MR.S. WEARY: No, we are on Legislative in case the hon. gentleman got lost. MR. STAGO: (Inaudible). MR. S. WEARY: Legislative, Sessional. Denart- ment of the Auditor General and Office of the Parliamentary Commission.

April 15th., 1980 Tape No. 776 OW - 3 MR. S.. NEARY: Now I can wait,if the hon. gentleman wants to wait until we get down to the Auditor Generals Deoartment,I will repeat everything I said again. MR.W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIDMAN (Butt): A point of order. We are on Legislative, Head II and it is 201-01. MR.W. MARSHALL: 201-01? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, the first one. MR.W._MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is now debating the Auditor General's Department which is 202. MR. CHAIRMAN: Actually in this particular case when I called Head II the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) immediately stood. MR. HOODS?.: I did, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. So if it is in order now just to clarify the situationjust the general Head of Head I was called Legislative. Shall 201-01 carry? MR. S. NEARY: Do you want to cart', that now or are we' allowed to have a few words on it or what? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can speak to that, of course. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. S. NEARY: Oh, I am quite satisfied to let the Lieutenant Governor's establishment po. I do not necessarily agree with everything that is in there. I am hooing that they are takina - MR. W.

MARSHALL: But that is not in there. The Lieutenant Governors salary is in Executive. We are on Lenislative now, 2'Jl,which is Sessional Indemnities. MR. S. NEARY: Well, boy,let her go.I could not care 1ess Let her go,boy I'

April 15th., 1980 Tape No. 776 OW - 4 W. MARSHALL: I say for the sake of orderli- ness, Mr. Chairman, if you would like MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Item by item. On motion. subhead 201-01 and 201- 02 carried.

April 15, 1980 Tape 777 EC - 1 MR. CHAIR21AN (Sutt) The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: I can respond to some of the questions with regard to the Auditor General that the hon. member raised there. MR. W. MABSHALL: 'John' , you are on the wrong subhead. DR. J. COLLINS: No, we are not, we are on 202-03, are we not? MR. W. MARSHALL: No, we are on 201-03. DR. J. COLLINS: I ant sorry, I thougnt you said 202-03. On r'tion, 201-04 through 201-06, carried. MR. ChAIRNAN Shall 202-01 carry? MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRNAN: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S.

NEARY: That is the one the minister is going to give us some answers on. while the minister is up, could the hon. gentleman also tell us, in addition to the questions that I already put to the hon. gentleman, if the Auditor General now has the authority to audit the books and records of Crown corporations and other government agencies? There was a time when the Auditor General was not allowed to audit the records of Crown corporations and Crown companies and so forth, and Labrador Linerboard is a classic example of tnat, where there was $500 million of corruption. The Auditor General could not go in.

The Auditor General was not invited and could not audit the books of that company, which is a Crown company, was not a private company as the former Minister of Justice used to stand up and so sanctimoniously tell me.

It was a Crown company of which the Minister of Justice of that day was an officer, was President of the Soard of Jirectors of that company at one stage of his career in this House, presided over $500 million of corruption and has since been amply rewarded for that, plus all the other weak-kneed things that that hon. gentleman did while he was Minister of Justice and Minister of Finance in this House. But can the Auditor General now go and audit the books of Crown corporations? 2 ? •1

April 15, 1980 Tape 777 SC - 2 AN HON. ER: Why not ask the Auditor General? MR. S. NEARY: No, I am asking the Minister of Finance. Words - MR. F. STAGG: Do words fail you? MR. S. MEARY: No, words do not fail rr. Ignorance is bliss, Mr. Chairman. I am asking the minister, who is the appropriate minister to ask in this House, if the Auditor General is not auditing the accounts, the books, for instance, of Newfoundland Hydro, of the Newfoundland Liquor Commission? And the minister can get up and say, 'Well, there are independent audits done on these accounts.

The independent audits may be well and good, but I would feel safer if the Auditor General were allowed to go in and take a look at the books of these Crown corporations and government agencies. SOME HON. MEERS; Hear, hear MR. S. NEARY: The Auditor General reports to this House. The private individual, auditors report to the Crown corporations and to the agencies. And the Auditor General can indicate to the House if there is any extravagance and waste and spending not in accordance with the allocation of money from this House, not a private company - only the Auditor General can do that.

The Auditor General has to interpret and take his instructions from this House. So I would be curious to hear what the minister has to say about this situation. Other than that, Sir, there is not much else. Anything else, I think, we can deal with when we get to another subhead. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. C. COLLINS: The hon. member asked firstly in regard to the Auditor Generals department, where it is situated.

As far as I know, it is situated in an office building on the South side of Elizabeth Avenue at the corner of New Cove Road, in the building fernwrly the head office, I believe, in St. Johns of the Imperial Oil Company. As far as I know the head office is there. There may be branches elsewnere, but I think that is the head office of the Auditor General. With regard to staff, the hen. member asked if

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 778 EL - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: there was sufficient staff. I suppose that is a bit of a subjective question. I can certainly indicate, I hope, what staff the Auditor General has. In the vote, the salaries for the Auditor General amiDunt to just over one and a half million dollars, which would suggest there is a sizeable staff. And in actual numbers, there are sixty-nine on staff there. That is broken down as follows: There are three in the executive

section and of the three, one is the Auditor General himself and one is the Deputy Auditor General ,and then there are five in the administrative section. There are six in the research and the develop- ment section, of which five are auditors. There are ten -no, wait flowe I an sorry, there are fifteen in the public accounts section, all of which are auditors. There are a further nine auditors in another part of that

section so that in the public accounts, totally, there are twenty-seven of which twenty-four are auditors. And then in the

section for other accounts there are another twenty-eight personell, twenty- three of which are auditors. In regard to hcw often audits are done, the Auditor General, at any time, his authority allows him at any time that he so wishes to investigate any of the departments of government or other organizations under his purview. Is hon. members know, there is a report annually, and I think the usual practice is to audit any departments on an annual basis but certainly it is open to the Auditor Ger.eral that he could audit a dozen times if he so wishes.

I am not aware of wheti-er he makes more than one audit in any department, but I know that he makes at least one audit annually in each department. The hon. member also asked whether Crown Corporations come under the scrutiny of the Auditor General and that is so. His responsibilities, I miaht read these out:

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 778 EL - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: He is responsible for auditing the accounts of all provincial government departments and reporting thereon to the House of Assembly. Auditing and reporting on the accounts and financial statements of various Crown corporations, agencies and municipalities. And hon. members will recall that when reports, say,of the Liqucr Corporation or the Liquor Licencing Board or whatever, are tabled in this House, there is a

section in the report which is verified over the signature of the Auditor General and pre- sumably if there was anything that the Auditor General wished to bring to the notice of this hon. House, there would be some comment in that section. On motion Clause 202-.02-01 to Clause 202-02-04 carried. MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the member from Port au Port (3. Hodder) as well as the member for LaPoile (S. Neary) in talking about the Ombudsman and the need for publicity.

There is one civil servant in this Province who serves everybody and basically the need for advertising is even more 50 now that trogram on CBS is discontinued. Secondly, with reaar to the Auditor Generals Report, I am rather concernedas a new politician that the things that were encovered in the last session, after he cade his report, that t'lese were uncovered only as a result of spot checking. It only poses the question in my mind that if the spot checking with such an insufficient staff, what would happen if we had a lot more staff to do more investigating' So I would like to support the member for LaPoile (.

Neary) by saying that we need more members on the Auditor General's staff and also to have the Auditor General go and audit Crown Corp- orations and government agencies, thereby giving our people in this Province more self-assurance and a sense of security, that the mone"

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 778 EL - 3 MR. S. MISOCK: that is collected through taxation in this Province, will also be spent in the correct manner. So only on these two matters would I like to lend my support to my two fellow colleagues. On motion Clause 202-02-04 through 202-02-04 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: 203-01. The hon. member for LaPpile.

April 15,1980 Tape NO. 779 AH-1 MR. NEARY: Briefly,I want to make our annual comment on the office of the Parliamentary Commissioner, commonly known as the Ombudsman. I want to say here that for what good it is, for what good the office of the Parliamentary Commissioner is, 3ir, we may as well wipe it Out and retire him, let him go home and live cn full salary. That office of Parliamentary Ombudsman - which was a Liberal idea by the way, an idea that was born during the final days of the Smallwood administration.

It was nor us -!lo appointed the Ombudsman, it was the administration that succeeded the Smallwood administration , but the idea and the philosophy was pioneered by the Liberal government in this Province and it ended up, Mr. Chairman, far short of what we had in mind. All the Parliamentary Commissioner is doing right now is trying to rectify mistakes that are made by ministers and bureaucrats in the government. His scope is rather limited, due to no fault of the Ombudsman. The poor fellow must be sitting down there in his office completely frustrated. People have given up.

First when the office was established, Mr. Peddle,who I had the pleasure of sitting in this House with inen he was a member of this House - it was a political appointment; it is just as well to face it I sat in this House with the hon. gentleman when he rep-resented Grand Falls. When he first got appointed he was beseiged with letters and complaints from people all over the Province but religiously the reply went out, 'I am sorry I cannot help you. This is not under my jurisdiction.

I do not have the power to deal with it.' The only thing the Ombudsman can deal with are decisions that have been made by ministers or lureucrats. And you might have noticed from the Ombudsman's report this year, it was probably the briefest report that he has ever tabled in this House. The first one he wrote, I remember,waa riddled with humour because the gentleman is a very witty individual who gets a great kick out of life and we all enjoyed it very ouch as he outlined the various cases. Most of them he had to reject because he could not deal with them.

This time he dealt exclusively with the government's handling of claims that are

April 15,1980 Tape No. 779 AH-2 MR. NEARY: made against the various departments of government for damage to peoples vehicles and to their property and so forth. He dealt exclusively with that matter. And I had a similar case come up myself about a week after the report was tabled in this House and I went and discussed it with the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) and I was glad to hear from the Minister of Justice that the government is taking a look now at involving private insurance companies so that people who have claims against the government will not have to take on the big government, will not have to hire expensive lawyers to take on the big government, will be able to deal with an insurance company the same as any other individual who is covered for accidents with insurance companies. This would be a good thing. But as I started to say , Mr. Chairman, the Ombudsman must be completely frustrated.

I had occasion myself to write the Ombudsman with what I thought was an open and shut case on numerous occasions and I finally ended up writing the Ombudsman for the CBC and I bet you all the members of this House if they were to tell the true story would have to get up and say they were completely frustrated and they had to write some other source, they have had to refer people to Legal Aid or they had to Write the Ombudsman. I remember writing Mr. Cooper. 2 1

.\pril 15, 1980 Tace No. 780 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I had one outstanding case and I involved Mr. Cooper, he finally got it settled, involving a hunter who had all his ammunition, his guns, and his motor vehicle confiscated because he did not bring the testicles of a male moose out of the woods and give it to the wildlife officer on the way out. And there was nothing on the licence that said that you had to do that, and he won his case. They had confiscated everything belonging to him. But, Mr.

Chairman, I want to find out from the miniater now, does the government have any intention of broadening the terms of reference of the Ombudsman to give him a little more power and authority so he can deal with some of the real complaints in this Province? Because if they have not they may as well shut down the office, close her up, and the Ombudsman and the staff home and retire him on full salary. MR. CHAIP'1AN (Baird) : Shall 203-01 carry? MR. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

JANIESON: If the minister is not going to respond, I think I will take advantage of this opportunity to put on the record, even though probably no one will pay the slightest attention to it, what I consider to be one of the most serious deficiencies in government and in our democratic system today, and that is the almost callous disregard of the ordinary individual by so many with whom they have to come in direct contact. I have mentioned this in the Mouse before and I am sure that it must be of at least as much concern to members opposite as it is to me.

The kind of case that my friend from LaPoile has mentioned, there are scores and dozens and dozens of others. But one of the real problems is to visit the small fishing communities, the smaller settlements of Newfoundland and indeed here in St. John's, and to find the difficulty that citizens have in getting what I would describe as a compassionate response out of government. And that is something which really has to begin at the top. It has got to begin

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 780 GH2 MR. JAMIESOM: with the ministers who are saving to their officials, "Look, you must be both civil and you must be servants", and sometimes, unfortunately, that does not turn out to be the case. Now, I am not looking in the way that my friend from Lapoile (Mr.

Neary) is, I am not on the same subject as heis, in terms of the Ombudsman, but I do suggest - I am not even looking for a response, I suppose, when I say this - but I do suggest that every minister of the government, it is incumbent on him first of all to understand himself the necessity for being responsive, but above everything else to ensure that the departments and the ordinary people down the road are that way. you know, one of the problems, Mr.

Chairman, that prompts this kind of difficulty is the fact that it is far easier for an official to go strictly by the book, even though it makes no sense to do so, but at least he cannot be faulted by going by the book. It is far easier for him to do that than to use a little common sense, and as in the case of the hunter, winding up with a whole series of representations to Ombudsmen and goodness knows who else.

I think we see it with regard to the game laws, we see it with regard to welfare, we see it with regard to most of what I would describe as the less fortunate elements in society, the people who cannot go and hire the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) to represent them- I guess he comes pretty high—or the member for Mount Scio (Mr. sarry),whose brilliance in the law is unquestioned. They cannot go to these kind of people and get them to represent them.

So, therefore, they do have real difficulty when they get into what I would call the bowels of the oureaucracy, and it really is shameful and I would hope - by the way, it is not just something that is confined to this Province, I think it is a growing trend everywhere - it really is shameful the way some unfortunate person comes to you with a mass, literally He brings Out of his pocket a great big envelope and he has had ten or fifteen or twenty letters, and if aver you could invent a game - MR. 8ARRY: Some people from Petit Forte were in to see me on Sunday with just that type of rrobiem.

april 15, 1980 Tape No. 780 GH-3 MR. JANIESON: I am sure the hon. member is happy, sure that he must agree with my proposition that if you could market this

April 15, 1980 Tape 781 EC - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: game and call it 'Send the Fool Further , the bureaucracy would make a fortune. And I would certainly commend to this administration that a crash course - and, by the way, it is not all departments because not all departments are that much involved with the ordinary citizen - but when you see day after day, week in and week out - I had the good fortune to spend the holiday period at one of the best resorts there is, namely, Swift Current in Placentia Bay, but every day there were people coming in with very, what seemed to be ordinary problems.

I am glad the Premier is in his seat because I am sure he will thoroughly agree with me on this, what seemed to be serious problems to them, when you look at it you will find out that it is only a matter of somebody using his common sense. Sending out a letter, whether it be in Petit Forte or whether it be in North Harbour or Garden Cove or somewhere, and saying, 'In answer to your letter, Subsection 45(a) (

d) Paragraph S or something or other of the regulations means • Please go and look this up,' What is the fellow going to do in a small community? So I make the appeal to the minister, if he is the man who is responsible for the Ombudsman in terms of expanding the effectiveness of this man's role, that something be done on this score. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. chairman, I wonder if I could have a moment just to revert to the head under the Auditor General? I would just like to give a little supplementary information, if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): Right. DR. J.

COLLINS: The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. S.Neary) asked if the Auditor General audited the accounts of Crown corporations, and I made an answer to that, but I do have a fuller answer now that perhaps I can give him. MR. S. NEARY: No problem. Did you give a wrong answer? DR. J. COLLINS: No, I did not really, but I just want to give fuller details. 2 q1

April 15, 1980 Tape 781 EC - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: The Financial Administration Act provides that the Treasury Board or the Executive Council can request the Auditor General to examine the records of government boards, etc. In most of these agencies, for instance, the Newfoundland and Labrador - a financial agency, the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation and so on, the Auditor General is the statutory auditor.

And in the Accounts of Crown Corporation Boards and Authorities for 1973, if hon. members wish to look into that, hon. members will see that in almost all instances those particular types of Crown corporation and agency are actually audited by the Auditor General. Newfoundland Hydro is also audited by an auditor for the bond holders, Peat, Marwick. Various building corporations such as the Confederation Building Corporation, Hospital Building Corporation and so on, these are audited by the Auditor General. MR. S. NEARY: What about Newfoundland and Labrador Housing? DR. J.

COLLINS: Newfoundland and Labrador Housing - I can actually look up that for the hon. member here - and this refers to 1978 - that was audited by the Auditor General. MR. S. NEARY: The Newfoundland Liquor Corporation? DR. J. COLLINS: The Liquor Corporation similarly, I am pretty certain, but if the hon. member will just give me a moment I can just find that. Yes, that was also audited by the Auditor General. A few agencies such as Workers Compensation Board and the Public Utilities Commission are audited by commercial auditors; there are a few audited in that way.

Generally, corporations incorporated under the Companies Act are audited by public accounting firms such as the United Cotton Mills and Newfoundland Fibrply and so on. I think that gives a rather fuller answer to that. If 1 may now just make a brief comment on Subhead 203. A number of points were raised there - that is, whether the Ombudsman sfficient1v publicizes his activities. 210?

April 15th.. 1980 Tape No. 782 DW - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Again that is a bit subjective; what is sufficient? I do know that the Ombudsman does under- take a certain amount of travel, so he is not only confined in his activities to the St. John's area where his office is. He does have a travel vote, there is also an investi- gator in his office ,so that presumably does allow him,and in actual fact to my certain knowledge he has himself as well as his investigator moved outside of the St. John's area for activities.

The question also came up as to whether there was any intention on the part of govern- ment to broaden the activities. I think that if there was any specific problem brought up there I am sure government will take it under advisement. To my knowledge there has not been any initiatives from that ooint.of view from the Ombudsman himself nor has there been any definitive defi- ciencies pointed out to government. But I am sure govern- ment would be quite open to any facts in that regard.

The last point I would just like to make in response to the Leader of the Opposition: He commented on whether the general public get a fair shake in their dealings with government and he suggested that a good example should be Set by the ministers.

Well, I can report to the House that the hon. the Premier, one of his early memos to the ministers was to point out to them that all approaches to the various ministers offices,be it in writing or in visiting or whatever these should be attended to very promptly and that has been followed up by a number rf reminders over the time that this administration has been noffice.And I think by and large there has been attention oaid to that. I think that as far as is possible in the volume of paPer that goes through tois building, that the general public usually is responded to very auickly.

April 15th., 1980 Tape No. 782 Dc1 - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Now the general public does not only come in contact with the elected representatives and certainly not the ministers,they also deal with the civil service. There ic a lare number in the civil service and I have no doubt that the general public sometimes has an'unfortunate experience there. But in my own experience I have been really rather pleasantly surprised by the dedication and the courtesy and the general handling of the general public at the hands of the Public Service, ANHON. MEMBER: Efficiency. DR. J. COLLINS: And efficiency quite often too.

Now as I say there is a large number of people involved here and I do not think you can expect 100 per cent per- fection. But I must say that in general I would say that the response to the general public has been good. I think we should also bear in mind that the Public Service is not usually in a position to respond to criticism directed their way.

So I think that it behooves us to be straight in our facts when we make comments about the Public Service and not make them in a general way,but if we have a specific complaint I think it should be backed up with facts rather than just making general statements which are difficult to track down and of course are almost impossible to respond to even if the Public Service was in a position so to do. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. 0. JAMIESON: Just in case the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) got the wrong impressionI was not,in case that was what he was implying saying that the Public Service was insensitive. And incidentally if he wants csses I have not the slightest doubt that we can find dozens of them. What I was savino was that we have become systematized in cTovernment to the point where a lot of the responses that are uoing out to people are not phrased in lanquape and the the, can understand.

April 15th., 1980 Tape No. 782 OW - 3 MR. D. JAMIESON: Andalso, the second and only other point I was making was that there is not enough what I might describe as flexibility within the authorities given to people in the field to do the sensible thing as opposed to doing what I might describe as bureaucratically exact thing.and it is those kinds of situations,not that the public servants 2

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 783 GH-1 MR. JAMIESON: are insensitive, auite the contrary. A lot of them go out of their way and so on. Perhaps I could, it is out of our own time, I will give them an example. It is not one that comes precisely, precisely under a government department as such, but it is Newfoundland Hydro. On Christmas Eve a gentleman on the Burin Peninsula ran into trouble with the meter on the outside of his house.

He could get permission to get the meter disconnected on Christmas Eve so that he could get the line fixed, but the regulations for getting it put back in rested with, I think it was either the Newfoundland Hydro or some other agency, the man from which had gone home for the holidays and was not expected back for ten days. In that particular case, it required a phone call from me to the head of Newfoundland Hydro in order to get somebody to do it. Now, I think it illustrates my point clearly, because the fellow said, "I am standing here by the meter". "Can you do it?" I asked him. He said, "Oh, yes".

"Nave you got the licence?' He said, "Oh, yes,I have the licence, but I cannot get the boss who is supposed to give me the necessary permission". How, there is where I say that bureaucracy tends to get so tangled up in itself that common sense goes by the board, and that was the only reason that I raised the issue, not out of any sense of criticism. On mocion, subheads 203-31 throuch to 203-02-03, carr:eh. MR. MARSHALL: Head III. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) Head III, Executive Council. Shall subhead 301-01 carry? The hon. che Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, this is the 301-01 and subsecuent subheads 302 and 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308 and 309, which cover many of the areas that come dicectly under my responsibility under that of Executive Council, which involves both the President of the Executive Council,who is to my right, the Government House Leader, and Involves the Treasury Board Secretariat of which the President, of course, is the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor), and myself as asponsib1e for Intergovernmental Affairs and some other areas that I will get into.

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 783 GH-2 PREMIER PECKYORD: First of all, Mr. Chairman, perhaps we can deal with them individually, and I do not know how the members want to play it. I can get up on each subhead, 301 and 302, I can do them all at the one time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman -. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: - (inaudible) a few minutes ago when I was on the previous subhead when the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) rose on a point of order and said that we were not debating the particular subhead that I was speaking on at that time.

I was speakincr on the Auditor General's department. We are now on Lieutenant-Ccvernor's establishment, but if the hon. gentleman wants to have sort of a oeneral debate before we go down item by item, I mean, I have no obleotion to it. That is the way things were always done in this House until the President of the Council, the member for St. John's East, decided that the Opposition should be silenced and muzzled. MR. MARSHALL: If I could rise on that point, that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman loves me and I reciprocate with an equal degree and probably plus more of affection for the hon. gentleman. The situation on this, Mr. Chairman - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) get you a cup of coffee. MR. MARNSALL: - the situation on this, Mr.

Chairman, I think, when we come to 301, the Lieutenant-Governor's Establishment, unless the members of the Opposition particularly wish to debate that particular area, I think that it is a matter of custom and courtesy that I know the members on the opposite side would share, to the effect that this particular vote of His Honour's establishment is usually passed without any great debate, unless there is some real reason for it. PREMIER PECKFORD: So, Mr. Chairman, will I take it then - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Premier. 2

April 15, 1930 Tape No. 783 GH-3 PREMIER PEC1'0RD: - if I have the ear - I will just deal with 301, the Lieutenant-Governors Establishment. It speaks for itself, and any increases there, I think, are the normal increases in salaries and so on. There is no substantial increase. The revised 1979-80 was $265,000 and it is now $293,000, which is reflective of just the normal inflation in salaries and other things, and I just leave it at that and then deal with each subhead as we come upon them. On motion, subheads 301-01 through to 301-02-06, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Sutt) 301-03. 2 ?9

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 784 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Just for the information Of the Cossnittee, that is the Name Board that we talked about last year that the present Lieutenant-Governor has now put in place. It had been constructed in Enolend and is now on the site. The cost to the Treasury was $35,000 - $40,000 and it is there in place - MR. ROBERTS: In perpetuity. PREMIER PECXFORO: - in perpetuity. On motion Clause 301-03,carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 302-01 carry? MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. S. NEARY: This is the Premier's office we are doing now, Mr. Chairman, and I was hoping that the hon. gentleman would have given us an explanation,but seeing that he did not, I will have a few words on the - well, I am going to pop a few questior at the hon. gentleman that he can answer for me. PREMIER PECEFORD: I did not want to (inaudible) I misunderstood the number that the Chairman was giving out, that is why the hon. member is up before I am. MR. S. WEARY: Well, you have got to be (inaudible) MR. N. MARSHALL: point of order. MR. S. NEARY: MR.

CHAIRMAN: President of the Council. I rise to a point of order, to a - sit in the House. To a point of order, the hon. the MR. N. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I refer Your Honour to Standing Order 118. (5) which says: "Nothwithstanding Standing Order 49, the minister introducing his estimates and the member speaking immediately in reply shall not speak for more than fifteen minutes and ever/ other member shall not speak for more than ten minutes." NOW, that, Hr. Chairman, I would sugoest to Your Honour, 2:u

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 784 SD - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: presupposes the fact that estimates are introduced,and I think as a matter of the procedure in which - MR. S. NEARY: Utter garbage' That is garbaget MR. W. MARSHALL: A matter of procedure. Now if the hon. centlemen - MR. NEAP.Y: Garbage. MR. H. MARSHALL: If the hon. gentleman opposite would like to turn the table and get up and speak first, he could perhaps introduce the hon. Premiers estimates and then the hon. Premier can get up and question the hon. gentleman perhaps he would like to do it that way.

But the fact of the matter for the orderly conducting of the business of the House, Mr. chairman, i suggest that this be implemented and,number two, I suggest it is inherent in that particular Standing Order. MR. S. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. merr,ber for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: It is utter nonsense, rubbish and garbage, Mr. Chairman. There is no such thing. All it says is that the Premier is entitled,or whatever minister is talking, is entitled to so much time, the member responding is entitled to so much time and that is all it refers to.

It does not indicate in any way, shape or form who the chair recognizes. In this particular case the Chair happened to recognize me, I thought the Premier was going to sit there and have questions flung at him and the Chair is perfectly within its right. It is unheard of, Mr. Chairman, and I hope Your Honour does not create any bad precedents in this House. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (RUTT) To the point of order, ordinarily when a new subhead is introduced, the minister responsible would ordinarily introduce that subhead and presumably if the hon. the Premier rose and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.S.Neary) rose then I would recognize the hon. the Premier. But since he did not and the hon. member for Lapoile rose,I would recognize the hon. member for LaPoile. 2 2

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 784 SO - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to raise a matter,and I want to keep the Premier in the House because I do not want him to get up and just make a statement then run away as he has been doing in the last two or three days. The Premier is more interested in having his picture taken, he must allocate a number of hours every day to have his picture taken and to give interviews.

I was just looking at the newspaper here, page 3 of the Evening Telegram, 'Premier calls for action to stabalize interest rates', "Peckford wants to know why trawler in Northern waters, 'Peckford disappointed with Throne Speech', Peckford this and Peckford that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. S. NEARY: How many hours - that is my first question to the Premier - how many hours a day does the Premier allocate to have his picture taken and to grant interviews ecause it seems to be interferrinc. -the reason I raise the matter, Mr. Chairman 'it is interferring with the business of this Province.

The hon. gentleman is so preoccpuied with having his picture takenthirteen times once in Oil peek, that he can not do anything else except talk about gas and oil and have his picture taken. In the meantime, every other industry in the Province, every service in the Province is deturiorating. She is falling apart, the construction industry is complaining savagely - AN HON. MENRER: Eat your heart out. MR. S. NEARY: - the construction workers are complaining because they can not find jobs. They all have to go Out to Alberta to find jobs, tradesmen have to leave this Province while the Premier has his picture taken.

People can not get water or sewerage because the Premier

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 785 lB-i I.M. NEARY: cut $50 million Out of the estimates and is too busy having his picture taken to do anything about it. People cannot get their roads repaired because the Premier is too busy having his picture taken. The Fishery Loan Board is in a shambles, the Premier is out having his picture taken. No housing, young people in the Province cannot buy houses, they cannot find a building lot.

The Premier steps into federal jurisdiction instead of dealing with matters that fall under his own jurisdiction so he can have his picture taken , so he can get a headline in the paper and have his picture taken. We have a Premier whose policy is to have your picture taken as often as you can, get interviewed as often as you can and let the Province fall apart. And that is what is happening, that is the policy and if my hon. friend ever becomes Premier I hope he does not copy the hon. gentleman. And not only that, Mr.

Chairman, but if you are going to have your picture taken,especially if it is live television,then make sure you are waving your arms like a Frenchman or you look wild-eyed and sincere. That is what you have to do if you are Premier of this Province today, make sure that you can rant and rave and wave your arms and look wild-eyed and then if you can imitate Rene Levesque and Peter Lougheed,you got her made.

The Premier is so preoccupied with looking for issues, grasping at straws, tilting at windmills, chasing after rainbows to create issues so he can have his picture taken, that nothing is happening in the Province. And the press love it,of course,because they aet oopy to fill up the space in their newspapers and they get a thirty minute squib for television and radio and they love it, especially the ones who hope to get on the government payroll some time, they love it.

And they will stick a microphone in front of the Premier any time or a minister, in anticipation of favours in the future, get on the government payroll and get retired. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is the kind of a Premier we have today, that is what we are paying out this salary for. But I want to come to something now a little more serious. we had a Premier in this Province for seven years - the hon. gentleman succeeded - 20

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 785 18-2 who in my opinion was a very corrupt individual, a notorious liar in this House, lied deliberately to this House on a number of occasions. But when the hon. gentleman went out - well,I will not call him honourable - when Mr. Frank Moores went out and the hon. gentleman succeeded him, the present Premier of this Province,one of the first things that happened was that the Premier had a phone call, the present Premier had a phone call from the Bank of Nova Scotia saying, "Mr. Premierthere is a little matter here of $700,000, three quarters of a million dollars, just a trifling sum.

Mhat are you going to do about it?" And the present Premier told them to go straight you- know-where. He was not doing anything, he was not even acknowledging it.

Now I want the Premier of this Province to tell me and tell the members of this House and tell the people of this Province-if that was a campaign fund, well and good, I will just forget the matter and forget I ever brought it up,but if it was a slush fund for the previous Premier, then the hon. gentleman should tell us because I would be interested in knowing who were the donors to that slush fund, what it was used for - called Confederation Trust, that is the name of the fund down at the Bank of Nova Scotia - what the fund was used for, who were the donors and what did they get in return for their donations.

I want the Premier to tell us. If the Premier stands in his place and says Confederation Trust was a campaign fund Set up by Mr. Noores the same as other parties have, then I will accept that and that will be the end of it;but if it was a slush fund for the Premier while he was in office, writing cheques without any other signature on these cheques, without any signing officer of the P.C. Association, one signature,Frank D. Moores,on the cheques that went to the bank for $700,000, if it was a slush fund then it is a different matter. 2 '

April 15, 1980 Tape 786 EC - 1 MR. S. NEARY; I want the Premier to straighten this out because this is the talk of the town. Three quarters of a million dollars is a lot of xrney. The Premier has not acknowledged it, has told the bank 'No, we know nothing about it. We are having nothing to do with it.' When a leader takes over, Mr. Chairman, whether it is in the Liberal Party or in the Tory Party, if there is a debt - and there was a debt in this party when the new leader took over and he had to acknowledge that and carry it on and try to pay it off the best way he can; we acknowledged our debts.

But if it is not a party debt you just say, 'No, sorry, we are having nothing to do with it.' And that is what has happened in this case, the Premier has not acknowledged it. So I can only assume from the information that I have that it was a slush fund, and if it was, then let us have an expose and tell us what it was used for and who the donors were and what favours they received in return for these donations. MR. 1AIRMAN (Butt) The hon. the Premier. PBEMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under the deal with Suohead 302, Premier's Office and to give sort of a run-down from last year as to what has been happening, I think last year in the Summer when we brought the Budget down and we went through the Estimates, a number of people in the Opposition were asking about the number of Premier's Offices around the Province and so on. And at that point in time there had been four, I think, Premier's Offices outside the one in the Confederation Building where my office literally is. There is one in Grand Falls, one in Botwood, one in Corner Brook and one in happy Valley-oose Bay.

I had indicated at that time that it was my desire and intention to reduce the number of offices and I want to report now, Mr. Chairman, that I have reduced the number of offices. The Happy Valley -Goose Bay office has beer. closed out and the Botwood office has teen closed out and there are two offices now serving the Province, the office in Grand Falls,dealina with 2 C 9 4

April 15, 1980 Tape 786 SC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Central Newfoundland,and the office in Corner Brook1dealing with Western Newfoundland and Labrador, and there are two special assistants- two ladies, as a matter of fact - special assistants of mine in both those locations, Mrs. Jean Shea in Grand Falls and Mrs. Anita Allen in Corner Brook.

And they seem like they are serving a fairly useful purpose now in the establishment of meetings and so on when Cabinet ministers and members go there and for myself when I spent part of last week, as a matter of fact, in the Grand Falls office and spent a fair amount of time in Corner Brook. It does help cut through a lot of red tape and we are keeping, as a matter of fact, available for hon. members if they want - I have instituted a weekly report.

The special assistants must make out a weekly report in which they detail the phone calls that came in and the phone calls that went out, the letters that came in and the letters that went Out, and sign their names to it and put dates on it so that we have a running record to indicate whether these offices are justified or not. up to now it seems to be working fairly well. So that is the story there.

We are trying to cut costs and trying to save where we can and not get involved in too much expenditure and yet provide a service to the people and provide a place for Cabinet and the Premier when he or they travel to that area and also to cut red tape and establish meetings for delegations and people in those regions of the Province when the Cabinet goes out there or when groups of people come in here. The other area - I think there was something in the paper today about it. It had to do with grants to former Premiers, which comes under 302-03. AN HON. MEER: It was an editorial.

PREMIER PECKEORD: Yes, it was an editorial, it was in the paper. And I do not know - I think last year we went through it or I made an announcement on it because there were some discrepancies in Mr. Smallwood and Mr. Moores, and just to read into the record so there is no misunderstanding on what that is about: "With effect from the day following resignation as ?remier, either for political or personal reasons, a private secretary 285

April 15, 1980 Tape 786 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: provided with renumeration to be on the salary scale applicable to the position of Secretary to Premier for a period not exceeding three years. In Lieu of providing a secretary, the former Premier be provided with an annual grant in the amount equivalent to the salary and related fringe benefits of the position of Secretary to Premier, such grant to be used only for the purpose of engaging secretarial assistance.

And secondly, "Office accommodation: Department of Public Works and Services to provide and furnish on the scale applicable to ministers, a maximum of 500 square feet of office space within existing facilities for a period not exceeding three years with effect from the day following 7 :

Acril 15, 1980 Tape No. 787 lB-i PREMIER PECEFORD resignation. In the event suitable office space is unavailable within existing facilities,an annual grant of $8,000 to be escalated in each subseqent year by 10 per cent be provided the former Premier, such a grant to be used only for the purpose of obtaining furnished office space, ordered further that such policy is applicable to Mr. Moores and to Mr. Smallwood and so on. That is the reading of the exact situation as it affects and the policy as it affects former Premiers and therefore it applies the same way to Mr. Smallod and to Mr. Moores.

Really,that is all that is in that heading outside that I wanted to mention. There is travelling money there and office and so on. There is a - I will get it prehaps tomorrow and just make it available to the members of the House - there is a voluminous amount of mail both in Corner Brook and Grand Falls and here. Now I do not know what we are running at this past three or four weeks but we are running close to 1,000 letters a month, just a tremendous amount of mail coming in and phone calls are running at, you know, well over 100 a day. And it is just incredible to try to keep the paper moving.

I will tell you talking about the red tape it is a human's effort to try to keep the whole thing moving within e>dsting staff and that, of course, we are trying to do. Just a couple of comments on what the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) had to say. One that the government is really not doing anything and the Premier is not doing anything, you know, I will just tell the hon. member that the unemploent rate in Newfoundland in March, 1979 was twenty point one, in March, 1980 it is fifteen point seven. That speaks for itself, speaks volumes more than I can get into.

I wanted to go into a whole lot of things on that but this is not the place to do it I do not think under the heading of the Premiers Office but if any member wants this, of course, feel free to do so. The other thing is, the hon. n'ember for LaPoile is raising the issue of a bank account or something dealing with the former Premier. The hon. member for LaPoile will have to deal 2' 0

April 15, 1980 Tape No. 787 IB-2 PREMIER PECi'0RD: with the former Premier on that. That is no concern of mine and no interest of mine and that is a problem that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has with the former Premier and I would call upon him to work that out with the former Premier if he has a problem with him.