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September 30, 1998

36th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L036 - Wed 30 Sep 1998 / Mer 30 Sep 1998 1

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TREATY 3 FIRST NATIONS

NICKEL BELT BY-ELECTION

MICHAEL AND MATTHEW MCLENNAN

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

HOMELESSNESS

DAVID NICHOLSON

LONG-TERM CARE

COURT STAFFING

NICKEL BELT BY-ELECTION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TEACHERS AMENDMENT ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ORDRE DES ENSEIGNANTES ET DES ENSEIGNANTS DE L'ONTARIO

GEORGE NIXON

JOHN EAKINS

ORAL QUESTIONS

SCHOOL CLOSURES

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

TEXTBOOKS

VISITORS

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

HOSPITAL FUNDING

SCHOOL CLOSURES

YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT

HAZARDOUS WASTE

ROAD SAFETY

HEALTH CARE FRAUD

JAIL CLOSURES

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

PETITIONS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

CANCER PREVENTION

ABORTION

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

ABORTION

DIABETES EDUCATION SERVICES

ABORTION

DIABETES EDUCATION SERVICES

PROPERTY TAXATION

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

ELECTORAL REFORM

DENTAL CARE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INSTRUCTION TIME: MINIMUM STANDARDS ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 SUR LES HEURES D'ENSEIGNEMENT : NORMES MINIMALES

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TREATY 3 FIRST NATIONS

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I'm delighted to stand today to congratulate and extend best wishes to the First Nation communities under Treaty 3 who will be gathering this weekend to celebrate the 125th anniversary of the signing of their treaty. I am also pleased that my leader, Dalton McGuinty, will accompany me to Eagle Lake, where we will join Chief Francies Kavanaugh, Grand Chief Charles Fox, host Chief Arnold Gardner and many other chiefs, elders and First Nation members to celebrate this most historic anniversary.

Since its signing in 1873, Treaty 3 communities have undergone considerable growth and change. Encompassing some 14,000 people and more than 25 communities in Ontario, Manitoba and Minnesota, Treaty 3 has protected the rights of these first nations and has indeed been a treaty based upon honour and mutual respect: respect for the land, respect for history, respect for language, culture and traditions.

As you are aware, Mr Speaker, my riding is the home of more than 50 vibrant and diverse First Nation communities, and I am very proud to have worked with and represented these here in the Legislature for the past 11 years. At this time I would ask all members to join me in congratulating Treaty 3 on this most historic anniversary. Meegwetch.

NICKEL BELT BY-ELECTION

Mr Wayne Lessard (Windsor-Riverside): Just to begin I want to welcome my friend in the members' gallery, Grant Cloutier, but remind people out there that tomorrow is election day in Nickel Belt. If the polls hold true, Blain Morin is going to be joining us as a member of this Legislature sometime next week.

Blain has been campaigning hard to carry on that tradition started by Floyd Laughren 27 years ago. What he's been hearing as he's been going door to door and talking on the phone is that people in Nickel Belt are concerned about cuts to hospitals, about the laying off of nurses and the absolute lack of reinvestment in community services by this government.

They're concerned about the closing of schools, they're concerned about the increases in their property taxes, they're concerned about the failure of this government to create jobs in their community and they know that this is all the result of the Mike Harris tax scheme, a tax scheme that benefits those who are the most well-off in Ontario, a tax scheme that the Liberals say they would not do anything about.

Only Blain Morin can send the message to this government that enough is enough. Blain Morin is the fighter we need here in Queen's Park, and I look forward to welcoming Blain Morin as the next member for Nickel Belt here in the Legislature of Ontario.

MICHAEL AND MATTHEW McLENNAN

Mr Frank Klees (York-Mackenzie): It is with great pleasure that I rise today to introduce Matthew and Michael McLennan to my colleagues in the House. These two young men from the riding of York-Mackenzie, and more specifically King City, will be leaving next week to represent Canada at the world age group trampoline championships in Sydney, Australia.

Last May, Matthew placed second in the 18 and up age group championships and third in the junior nationals, which were held in Montreal. Michael placed third in the 15 to 17 age group championship and fourth in the junior nationals. These finishes earned them a place on our distinguished Canadian team.

We in York region are extremely proud to be the home of the Skyriders Trampoline Place on Leslie Street, where Matthew and Michael have been training for the past three years under the direction of their coaches Dave Ross and Angelo Despotas.

It is a distinct pleasure to recognize the efforts and accomplishments of these two young men, who represent not only my riding but our province and our country on the world stage. I also want to recognize their parents, Jane and John McLennan, who over the years have provided the behind-the-scenes encouragement and support without which these accomplishments would not have been possible. They represent the millions of parents across our province who volunteer their time and resources in support of their children's dreams. I ask all members of the Legislature to join me in congratulating Matthew, Michael and the entire Canadian world championship team.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor-Sandwich): Tomorrow morning all MPPs in the House have the opportunity to assist me in passing a resolution that has everything to do with health care in the ridings you come from.

I'd like to remind all MPPs in the House that the resolution I'll be presenting tomorrow morning at 11 am involves improving funding in the hospital and health systems, sufficient capital dollars being supplied on a timely basis, and striking an immediate independent review to see exactly the effects of restructuring on patients, patients not just in Windsor but right across Ontario.

I'd like to remind the House too that you too will have your fax machines whirring as mine has. We have a number of hospitals, constituents across Ontario, who have stepped forward and are prepared, despite being afraid to speak out against the government, to stand up and say that things are not going well in the health system where you come from.

I might mention in particular, members who represent the area of Belleville, Scarborough, Palmerston, Cambridge, Pembroke, even those from Windsor, St John's Hospital in North York, St Thomas Elgin, Riverside health care centre - and the list goes on.

We'll be talking about it more tomorrow, but I'm looking for help from every MPP in this House. We hope you'll all be here for the vote at 12 noon. It means the difference between life and death in many places right across Ontario.

HOMELESSNESS

Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I have received a letter from Cathy Crowe, a registered nurse who is writing on behalf of the Toronto Disaster Relief Committee. She says the following, and I think this is important for all members of the House:

"The Toronto Disaster Relief Committee is asking you to endorse our call to have all levels of government declare homelessness a national disaster which requires immediate emergency humanitarian relief.

"We are a group made up of housing experts, academics, business people, health care workers, social workers, anti-poverty activists and the faith community. We have worked with homeless people, studied homelessness, and have watched the homeless crisis worsen daily. We have bandaged the injuries caused by being homeless and have attended the funerals of many homeless people.

"We have asked ourselves these questions: Why is this crisis not dealt with like the ice storm in eastern Canada, or like the flooding in Manitoba? Why are governments not responding to the hundreds of homeless people's deaths?

"Why are they ignoring the threat of diseases such as tuberculosis, HIV/AIDS, and hepatitis which are related to people's homelessness? Why is it that common sense doesn't dictate that this is one of the largest and most serious national disasters that Canada has ever faced?"

We need to act now and we need massive and immediate government intervention. If you want to make this Conservative government accountable for our housing needs, call me at 325-9092, and we'll tell you how to get involved.

DAVID NICHOLSON

Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): It is with a heavy heart that I stand here today to recognize a true hero.

On August 12, 1998, all of Cambridge suffered a great tragedy in the drowning death of 12-year-old Mark Gage, son of John and Jane and brother to Ted, Matt, Meredith, Sarah and Laura.

During the recovery efforts, Constable David Nicholson, a 10-year veteran of the Waterloo regional police force, lost his life in the course of duty.

Constable Nicholson, husband to Wendy and father to three young children, Mitchell, Reed and Josh, will be remembered by all as a true hero.

I ask the question, "Why do police officers risk their lives for us every day?" I answer with one word, "duty." "Duty," a word that seems archaic and unfashionable in our complex modern world, a word we certainly do not connect with our Sunday afternoon sports stars whom many mistakenly consider heroes.

People of Ontario pay homage and tribute to a true hero, Constable David Nicholson. The highest accolade: He did his duty.

To the families of Dave Nicholson and Mark Gage, please accept our sympathy and love.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): Yesterday was a very sad day for the African-Canadian community. Our leader, Dalton McGuinty, had requested the Minister of Long-Term Care to reconsider bungling that went on in his ministry of a proposal that was put forward and was denied because they said it was one minute late.

The African-Canadian community was responding to a call by the government to address a desperate need within that community for the elderly who have been needing this care. We feel very much so and the community at large tells me that they feel extremely disappointed by the manner in which the minister handled that affair and the insensitive manner in which he responded, which is consistent with the way the government is doing these things.

I will appeal to the minister to reconsider that decision, to take a look again at that tender to make sure they can address that desperate need.

I also call upon the community at large to call the minister and call the Premier to say that this need can be addressed. We hope this call is not in vain. We hope this tender was not one of those shams, that they had hoped to address the elderly concern within those communities. The ethnic community needs to address their elderly who are not being very much accepted in some of the other communities.

I urge this government and this minister's colleagues to speak to the minister, who was quite insensitive yesterday, and I hope that he'll respond accordingly.

COURT STAFFING

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On behalf of the NDP candidate in Nickel Belt, Blain Morin, I want to raise a very serious problem that has been troubling the administration of justice in Chapleau for some time.

On Wednesday, September 9, the provincial court session in Chapleau was, for a second time, delayed because there was no justice of the peace to preside over the court. There is only one justice of the peace in Chapleau, and if that individual is not available, then court proceedings have to be postponed. This is the second time this has happened.

In this particular situation on September 9, a justice of the peace had to travel to Chapleau at the last minute from Wawa, a distance of over 90 miles, for a truncated session of the court to proceed in the afternoon. But that meant most of the hearings that were scheduled for that day, for the morning, did not take place and had to be postponed.

It's obvious that the government needs to appoint a second justice of the peace for Chapleau as soon as possible. Blain Morin has suggested that this should be done quickly so that we don't have a repetition of what happened on September 9. The reeve, Earle Freeborn, has also called for an appointment.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

NICKEL BELT BY-ELECTION

Mr John O'Toole (Durham East): There certainly was a very interesting and informative editorial in the Sudbury Star this morning. I'll read it for members:

"In Nickel Belt" the PC candidate "Courtemanche: A Clear Voice.

"Despite all the political heavyweights who have come to Nickel Belt to flog their respective parties during the past few weeks, only one candidate has managed to convey a clear message to voters.

"Gerry Courtemanche has enunciated his position on such issues as stricter penalties for young offenders, developing opportunities for small businesses and fair taxation.

"As he has campaigned, Courtemanche has remained focused" on his and his government's decisions and policies, which are admirable.

"Both the Liberal and NDP candidates, as representatives of the opposition parties, have been content to criticize government policies. The two candidates have not offered realistic solutions for local issues or clearly outlined their visions for the riding. This point was raised more than once by audience members at all-candidates debates in the riding."

The editor stated, "Neither opposition candidate has offered realistic alternatives to Tory policies."

Clearly, "Now the riding has a unique opportunity.

"The person elected in tomorrow's by-election will only be in office" for a short period of time. "Courtemanche has shown that he deserves an opportunity to represent...Nickel Belt" in the province of Ontario.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I beg leave to inform the House that today the Clerk received the eighth report of the standing committee on government agencies.

Pursuant to standing order 105(g)(9), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): I would like to take this opportunity to invite all members to welcome to our chamber and indeed to our country a special visitor who is seated at the table, Mr Mshiyeni Dlamini, who is the Clerk-at-the-Table, Senate, Houses of Parliament of the Kingdom of Swaziland. Welcome.

In the government members' gallery is the ex-member for London South, Mr Gordon Walker. Welcome.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TEACHERS AMENDMENT ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ORDRE DES ENSEIGNANTES ET DES ENSEIGNANTS DE L'ONTARIO

Mr Wildman moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 65,

An Act to increase teacher representation at the Ontario College of Teachers and to make other amendments to the Ontario College of Teachers Act, 1996 / Projet de loi 65, Loi visant à accroître la représentation des enseignants au sein de l'Ordre des enseignantes et des enseignants de l'Ontario et apportant d'autres modifications à la Loi de 1996 sur l'Ordre des enseignantes et des enseignants de l'Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): This bill amends the Ontario College of Teachers Act. The composition of the council of the college is changed, increasing the proportion of elected members to the college so that they make up 75% of the council. Provisions are added to provide that the council or a committee will not have a quorum unless a majority of the elected council members are present.

The council will be required to elect one of its members to be the chair. All the committees will be required to have a majority of elected council members.

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the unanimous consent of the House for the opportunity of various members of the House to give some brief remarks on the passing of two former members of the House, George Nixon and John Eakins, who passed away during the recess.

The Speaker: Agreed? Agreed.

GEORGE NIXON

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I'd like to pay tribute today to a former member of the House, George Nixon, who represented the riding of Dovercourt, an area where he was born and raised.

George was a leader in his community throughout his entire life. He served for some time in the military. He was a very religious man who was deeply involved with the Baptist church. He was involved with the Cerebral Palsy Foundation and the United Appeal, and was a founder of Camp Kwasind for underprivileged children.

In 1971 he was elected to the Ontario Legislature for our party for the neighbourhood in which he grew up, that being the riding of Dovercourt.

Frank Drea, who was the former member for Scarborough Centre, described George Nixon as one of the last old-style politicians. During a great time of change in social policy, he was devoted to the well-being of his constituents and the people of Ontario. George knew everybody on a very personal level in his riding and met with them directly, spending a great deal of his time as an MPP listening to their ideas and concerns over a cup of coffee in a local coffee shop or restaurant.

At Queen's Park he was considered totally reliable, never missing a committee assignment or a vote. He was what we describe in our party as a true, solid backbencher who was there when we needed him to vote or needed to count on him. In fact, the only time George wasn't working hard for his constituents at Queen's Park was when he would be doing things at his local church, and he was very active in that.

Former MPPs describe George as being very down to earth and every man's man in terms of his representation here. He was very straightforward and not afraid to discuss sensitive issues in caucus and quite frankly was envied by some of his caucus members during the 1971-75 period in which he had the opportunity to sit here because many other members were intimidated to speak at that time in caucus.

On a last note I'd like to say, in terms of how he was described by Frank Drea, that George Nixon gave politics and politicians a good name. He worked hard for his people and he did a great job while he was here.

On behalf of the people of this province and the government of Ontario, I'd like to pass on our condolences and wishes to his three daughters, Nancy, Catherine and Shirley, and the entire Nixon family.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): My colleagues and I in the Liberal Party want to join the government House leader in expressing our condolences to the Nixon family. I think the government House leader, as is his wont, touched all of the main points. Gordon Walker is here today. Gord was part of that class of 1971 of which the late Mr Nixon was also a member. From all the stories I heard when I came here some 23 years ago, Mr Nixon was truly a man of the people out in the west end and we certainly join with the government in expressing our condolences to his family.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): I rise today to express, on behalf of the New Democratic Party caucus, our condolences to the family of George Nixon, a former member of this House, and to join representatives of the other two parties in paying tribute to the time that he served here in this House from 1971 to 1975. The government House leader has already given an outline of the time spent and the work that George Nixon did here in the Parliament. I want to give you a slightly different perspective because he was also a neighbour of mine.

He lived on Salem Avenue, only a block away from where I am, so I knew George Nixon during the period that he was here. I was in high school with one of his daughters, and in the neighbourhood where I lived and where he lived, certainly everybody was aware of George Nixon.

The comments that have been made about his link to the community, I can tell you from the community, were very clear and very evident. That continued even after he left this place in 1976, with many people there still calling on him for advice and still looking to him for answers to the daily problems they dealt with. He was really one of those politicians who can be described very accurately as being of the community and certainly aware of what was going on in the various neighbourhoods.

That is the memory I will keep of him, as somebody who obviously, although in a very different political spectrum, cared about the community and brought that kind of very down-to-earth approach, perhaps in part because of his own background as the son of Irish immigrants and also because of his work background. Before he came to this Legislature he worked for 25 years at Continental Can, first as a stock keeper and later as a foreman, so I think he never forgot that link to the people of the riding.

I knew him from that perspective and am glad to have the opportunity to express here today, on behalf of our caucus, our condolences to his three daughters, Nancy, Catherine and Shirley, to his sons-in-law and to the nine grandchildren, and, as I was at the memorial service the other day, to conclude my comments with the same Irish blessing that a friend of Mr Nixon, Mr James Walker, finished his remembrance of Mr Nixon with, the famous Irish blessing that says, "May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be at your back, may the sun shine warmly on your face, and until we meet again, may God hold you lovingly in the hollow of his hand."

JOHN EAKINS

Hon Chris Hodgson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Northern Development and Mines): It is with great sadness that I inform the House of the passing of John Eakins, who passed away on September 16 of this year in his 75th year.

As the current member for Victoria-Haliburton and on behalf of the people of Victoria-Haliburton and the Premier and the government of Ontario, I'd like to extend our sympathies to the Eakins family and to pay tribute to his years of public service and his work in the community and in the riding.

As the members of this House will recall, John was first elected to the Legislature in 1975 and he served with distinction and honour until 1990. In that capacity, he was the Minister of Tourism in the Peterson cabinet from 1985 to 1987 and he was subsequently the Minister of Municipal Affairs from 1987 to 1989.

Before that, John had a lengthy service working on behalf of the people of Victoria and Haliburton in numerous capacities. He was a councillor in the town of Lindsay. Later, from 1966 to 1971, he was the mayor of Lindsay and brought about a number of initiatives, including the twinning with a city in Japan which has been very successful. At that time it was a courageous move. There was a time when relations with Japan weren't as healthy as they might be today in the public's attitude, and it was the vision that John had that was progressive for Victoria and for Lindsay that served the constituents well.

He was also the warden of Victoria county and he served on numerous committees. Even in retirement John was active in local politics, helping out where he could in a number of community organizations such as Rotary and the Sports Hall of Fame, and in a number of other activities he helped the people of Lindsay and Victoria county.

He started out as a barber and hairdresser in Lindsay, the town he had been born and raised in. I think it was in this occupation that he developed his great listening ability. People of the riding knew that John cared about them. He could listen and he had a friendly manner, which could be called upon if you needed assistance. He served his community in a non-partisan manner and I was proud to be able to say that I was a friend of his. Even before I entered into politics, I knew him. He was always there to offer advice or to help if you needed help. I think that speaks volumes.

Even this summer, Premier Harris and I had the opportunity to spend an afternoon with John when we were at his cottage on Four Mile Lake. He still followed politics actively, cared about the people of Victoria and Haliburton and offered some good advice.

It was a pleasure knowing John. He will be greatly missed by all the residents of Victoria and Haliburton.

On behalf of the government and the people of Victoria and Haliburton, I'd just like to say that our thoughts and our prayers are with his family, Barry, Janice, Karen and their spouses, his grandchildren and the entire Eakins family.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): It was about 50 years ago at a federal-provincial conference, I think in Ottawa, that the legendary Premier of Ontario Leslie M. Frost said in the midst of some very complicated negotiation about some issue of intergovernmental finance that he looked at this as one would look at it from the barber's chair in Lindsay.

In telling that story, and he told it many times, he tried to convey, and conveyed very effectively over his long and very successful career as first minister of the Ontario government, that it was from the barber's chair in communities like Lindsay that one really understood the common sense of the common people. John Eakins, as the Minister of Northern Development has just observed, was for many years a barber in Lindsay.

My colleagues and I want to join the government and our friends in the New Democratic Party in paying tribute to the public life of our former colleague.

I knew John very well. We were elected on the same day in 1975 and we were to share offices in the old north wing for all of the years prior to our taking office in 1985.

John Diefenbaker used to say that the Liberals were so scarce in Saskatchewan in his lifetime that they needed the protection of the game laws.

Laughter.

Mr Conway: You should laugh, because it was largely true - the later part of his life, I should say.

Liberals in Victoria county were pretty scarce people. In fact, I think there were only two Liberals to sit provincially for Victoria in this century. One of them was a very good friend of my grandfather's, Bill Newman, a dairyman from Lorneville, and John Eakins in the later years. Victoria county is as traditionally Conservative as it gets. It sends people with names like Hodgson and Scott and Hughes and Carew to represent the good people in Parliament or in the Legislature.

John in that sense was an exception. He won only after being beaten by the current member's uncle on at least one occasion. John was defeated in 1967 and again in 1971. I remember saying to him, "How could you run a third time in Victoria county as a Liberal?" I don't know that I would do it. I don't know that I would have done it even a second time. John said in that smiling, friendly way of his: "You know, I like Bob Nixon.

He came and talked to me and said, `John, once more for the team.'" In the face of very real odds, odds that most of us would have simply passed and said, "Thanks but no thanks," he ran a third time in 1975 and he won. I think part of the legacy and the lesson of the public life of John Eakins is that politics is about more than just winning. He lost, and lost badly, in very difficult circumstances, but that didn't deter his interest. He was willing to once again step into the breach in 1975.

I was lucky. I won the first time. I don't know that I would ever have won a second time had I lost the first time out, and I'll tell you, I don't know that I would ever have volunteered to be the Liberal candidate in Victoria, because it's tough country, and because John was a Liberal from Victoria, he was a pretty moderate, what you call pragmatic, Liberal. He knew the range of possibilities for Liberal politicians provincially in Victoria, and he never ceased to remind the cabinet and the caucus about that. In contrition, I say we would have done much better than we did had we listened more carefully to John's advice in the later years of the last decade.

He was a great office mate. There was no issue too small, no call too early or too late, no far distant part of the northern reaches of Haliburton that he did not attend to with the assiduousness that we could all take as our guide and our example.

I don't want to go on too long and I won't. I just simply say I was pleased to join the minister and former Premier Peterson and his wife at the funeral service a week ago Monday at the Queen Street United Church in Lindsay. It was a beautiful sunny, breezy late summer afternoon, and that's the way John would have wanted it. He was a happy warrior.

In the end I thought John became wonderful in his - he was always good with Frost. If you wanted really good Les Frost stories, I used to get them from John, and in the end I was going to say he almost became a bit of a caricature of Frost, because he could put his hands out over those troubled waters. He developed a kind of silvery mane like the great man itself, and oh, how he regaled us with the great Les Frost stories of his part of central Ontario.

For me, in conclusion, I say as I join the minister in paying tribute to John and his family, and his wife, Iris, who predeceased him in the mid-1980s, one of the really significant sadnesses in this for me is that the style and quality of the politics John Eakins and Leslie M. Frost represented is passing from our midst, I think to our detriment. Thank you.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I want to join with my colleagues in paying tribute to John Eakins. I, like my friend from Renfrew North, was elected on the same day John was elected to this place. We came to know each other quite well, and he became a very good friend of mine across the aisle and in private life outside of this place.

I'm sure everyone who knew John would agree with me that John was a gentleman in every sense of that word. He was a friendly person who cared about concerns and, frankly, although he was partisan, he was not partisan in a way that we have come to understand that word here. If a member of another caucus had a concern when he was serving in the executive council for which he was responsible, he genuinely tried to resolve it, and the fact that the individual coming to see him about the problem was from another caucus didn't make any difference at all.

John spent a long time here and served his constituents very well, and he had a nice way about him, a quiet way but a great sense of humour. I must say on a personal basis that I feel the loss, as many of his friends do, particularly because after his wife passed on and John retired, he kept in touch with me personally, and after a traumatic time for my family actually travelled to Algoma to meet me and see me. I very much appreciated it.

I join with everyone in expressing condolences to John's family, his children and grandchildren, and express my concern and sorrow not just for the family - particularly for them, but also for the people of Lindsay and Victoria-Haliburton in losing a very good man.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd ask for unanimous consent today for the following motion to be forwarded to Prime Minister Jean Chrétien. The motion is that the Legislative Assembly of Ontario formally opposes any move by the federal Liberal government to spend the employment insurance surplus, the vast majority of which comes from Ontario workers and employers, on federal income tax cuts.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Members, let's be clear: The leader of the third party is asking for consent to move a motion. That's what you're giving consent to. Agreed? No.

Hon Ernie L. Eves (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I want to compliment the leader of the third party on his almost totally brilliant motion. We would be more than happy on this side of the House -

The Speaker: I appreciate that, but there's got to be a point of order here someplace. Can you get to it?

Hon Mr Eves: I would like to move that we support the leader of the third party's motion if he removes -

The Speaker: Hold it. We didn't get unanimous consent to even hear it, so it's not a point of order. I appreciate your offer. You'd have to ask for unanimous consent for another motion. I'll put it if you want.

The Treasurer would like unanimous consent to put a motion. Agreed? No, you didn't get it. Sorry.

ORAL QUESTIONS

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): My question is for the Minister of Education. This morning the 43 school boards that did not get any new schools in yesterday's announcement got the bad news about how many schools you expect them to close. You are going to leave the tough decisions about which schools will actually close to the trustees, but we can see today that your arbitrary formula is going to mean massive numbers of schools closing across the province.

Minister, can you confirm that according to your formula, your government is forcing over 500 elementary schools and over 100 secondary schools to close before the next school year?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): As I've said here many times before, we're not requiring one school to close in the province of Ontario, not any schools to close in Ontario. I can confirm a historical fact. That historical fact is that when the Liberals were in power between 1985 and 1990, there were 136 schools closed in the province.

Through the funding formula that I announced yesterday, I'm delighted to say that over the next three years there will be about $1.5 billion worth of new school construction in Ontario. This will accommodate about 120,000 students. Indeed in September and through to January there will be 25 school openings in the province of Ontario.

Mrs McLeod: I'm talking about something which is so unbelievable that it's difficult to credit the numbers you put out yesterday. We're talking about the potential of 600 schools or more having to be closed across this province. We're talking about your formula creating chaos over the next year that is beyond even imagining. You have arbitrarily decided for 43 school boards that they have what you have decided is surplus space and that they're going to have to close schools on a widespread basis.

You don't care where the space is, you don't care where the students are, you don't care how far the students who are displaced might have to be bused in order that they can find someplace to go to school. You just want the locks on the school doors.

If you close 500 elementary schools and 100 secondary schools, you are going to force tens of thousands of students on to school buses, you're going to disrupt their education and you're going to force them to go who knows where because your formula says their school's closed. Take some responsibility. Tell us how many schools are going to close and how many students you're going to force on to buses.

Hon David Johnson: We hear from the Liberal critic. Let's hear from the chair of the Toronto Catholic District School Board. The chair of the Toronto Catholic District School Board says: "We are extremely pleased that the minister has recognized the need to move our students into permanent, high-quality facilities. Today's announcement" - that's the announcement with regard to new pupil places - "is a good start to addressing the capital needs of this board."

Clearly we've taken a tremendous initiative in terms of flowing monies to school boards based on need right across Ontario, giving the resources to those boards that are short on space to build new schools, to put additions on to schools, elementary schools, secondary schools, a $1.5-billion program over the next three years, unprecedented in Ontario.

Mrs McLeod: I understand why the Minister of Education does not want to talk about the 43 boards that didn't get any new schools yesterday, the 43 boards that are going to have to close as many as 600 schools in the course of the next year. Minister, if you thought the crisis was over with your back-to-work legislation passed, think again because the crisis in education is just beginning.

You are demanding that schools shut down because you have an arbitrary formula that says they've got too much space. You actually gave a direction to the board today that you want their school closure plans in today. You insist that the locks be on those schools by the end of June and the students be on the buses by September 1. You have set all the rules. You're setting all the bottom lines. Take some responsibility. Stand up and tell us how many schools are going to close by June 30 of this year.

Hon David Johnson: I haven't heard so much nonsense in a long time. We're not requiring any schools to be closed. The member opposite knows this. In terms of school boards looking at the space they have, the school boards have this responsibility to accommodate their students. In fact what we have required of the school boards is that they consult with their parents if they are deciding to close a school. We require the school boards to consult with the parents and then to come forward with a plan. But it's up to the school boards.

We give them the money: the money for maintenance, the money for new construction, the money they need to accommodate the students they have. We give the responsibility to the school boards in conjunction with their local parents. I think that's where the responsibility should lie.

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Solicitor General. It has to do with key Ipperwash files that are missing from your office. As you know, a key participant in the Ipperwash affair was Mr Ron Fox, OPP officer on secondment to your office. He was at the September 6 interministerial meeting where the Premier's executive assistant said she'd been talking to the Premier the previous night. "Out of the park only," were her instructions to the group. Mr Fox then made a phone call to the police command post at 12 minutes after 11 that morning. That evening Dudley George was shot and a police officer convicted of criminal negligence causing death.

On April 19, 1996, seven months later, Ron Fox was transferred. We now know, based on sworn testimony from your deputy, that all of Mr Fox's electronic files were destroyed shortly after he left. Knowing how crucial Mr Fox's files would be to an inquiry, how could it possibly happen that his files were destroyed shortly after he was transferred?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I know that the privacy commissioner reviewed this matter with respect to how files were kept and found nothing wrong with respect to the issue of missing files. The deputy has explained that as best we can and has asked for a review of the systems that are utilized in terms of retention of files. Beyond that, Superintendent Fox, whom I know quite well, has an outstanding record of service in the policing community of this province. I would not want anyone to suggest otherwise.

Mr Phillips: On the contrary, the files were destroyed after he left your office, after he left your employ and went back to the OPP. I have nothing but respect for Mr Fox.

This is an extremely serious matter. It is beyond my belief how these files could be destroyed seven months after the shooting. This is one of the most serious events in Ontario's dealings with our first nations. A First Nation person died, an OPP officer convicted of criminal negligence causing it, and yet the files in your office were destroyed seven months after it.

I repeat that the privacy commissioner examined this and said, "As a result of the activities described by the deputy minister, the ministry has been unable to retrieve any electronic records left behind by the named employee at the time he left the position of special adviser, first nations."

Mr Fox left the files. He was transferred and then the files disappeared. I ask you again, Minister, how in the world could this possibly happen in the Ministry of the Solicitor General?

Hon Mr Runciman: I can't go beyond the fact that the privacy commissioner has looked at the explanation with respect to this and has accepted it. The deputy minister has outlined his understanding of the situation and has initiated a review of the electronic retention of files. I can't go beyond that.

Mr Phillips: You have to select your words better, I think, Minister. The privacy commissioner found that the records were gone. That's what he found seven months after this shooting. The most serious event affecting our first nations certainly in this century and yet seven months later the files are gone in your ministry, the key files. We have been calling for a public inquiry now for literally three years. Why? Because it is important we get to the root of this. Now we find, seven months after the shooting, key files being erased, disappearing.

Minister, will you return to this House tomorrow, will you find out why it happened that those files were destroyed and will you give us the assurance that you have personally looked at the files of the other individuals in your office who were involved in this and that those files still exist today?

Hon Mr Runciman: I've indicated, and I can't go beyond what I said earlier with respect to the explanations, that those have been offered by the deputy minister. There was a deputy minister prior to my current deputy who was in office during this period of time. Indeed we are concerned about the loss of these files in terms of our ability to retain very important and critical files. I share your concern with respect to that. The current deputy has initiated a review of this situation and a review of the retention policy.

TEXTBOOKS

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, yesterday I asked you why Ontario schools were forced by your government to pay inflated prices for school textbooks. The specific example I gave you was Bliss Carman school in Scarborough where teachers estimate that $9,000 of their $37,000 book budget was lost to these inflated prices.

We heard from dozens of schools. We estimate that across this province $20 million of the book budget has been lost to your inflated prices. Minister, who has the money? Who has taken that $20 million because of those inflated prices? Tell us.

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): As a result of the questions yesterday, we did investigate some of the allegations with regard to the books. We found one book, a science text, for example, which it was claimed could be purchased for $9.95. The Ministry of Education list price was $12.44. That was the price before the discount, but after the discount was applied, the price was actually $8.96, which is a dollar less than the principal claimed he could buy the book for. In addition, that lower price that the Ministry of Education received was an all-inclusive price including shipping and handling,

whereas at the school, the school would have to pay shipping and handling and would have to pay a portion of the GST, even after rebate.

A second-language text was about a dollar and a half cheaper through the Ministry of Education program when the bulk price was applied.

We have been assured, and the evidence is here, that we've received the best possible price. We have 3.2 million books in our elementary schools at the best possible -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thanks a lot. Supplementary.

Mr Hampton: It's interesting how the minister changes his story from yesterday. We understand there was a rebate; the point is that rebate didn't go to the schools. The point is that Bliss Carman didn't get that rebate; somebody else did. We want to know who got that rebate, who siphoned off that money.

Yesterday you told us that some of the extra money went to handling, postage and transportation. We talked to the publishers. They tell us that the price they ordinarily give schools already includes that. You've added on an extra handling and transportation charge. Who got that money? Yesterday you tried to tell us it went for taxes, but you don't have to pay taxes on school textbooks.

Minister, you're telling a whole bunch of stories here to avoid coming to the real facts. Just as Mr Campbell told us, you inflated the price of the dictionary by $30. Who got the $30? Do I have to help you? Do I have to send something like this over to you so you can look for the money? Who got the money, Minister? Who got the $20 million that should have gone to schools and -

The Speaker: Thank you.

Hon David Johnson: The facts are very clear on this. The facts are that we have 3.2 million books going to the elementary students in Ontario at a lower price than the boards could purchase by themselves. The principals are sometimes comparing the list price or their slightly discounted price with the discounted price that the Ministry of Education can receive. The Ministry of Education has received a lower price that some of the teachers aren't seeing.

The question is, who is receiving the benefit of this discount, this $13-million benefit that we've received because of this bulk purchase, and the answer is the students. The elementary students in Ontario are receiving the benefit. There will be more books, there will be more science equipment, there will be more software purchased for the students of Ontario. That's where the benefit will go.

Mr Hampton: The minister keeps trying to confuse the issue. We talked to the schools. The schools don't have the money in question. We talked to the book publishers. They don't have the money in question. Bliss Carman school is out $9,000 on their book budget. They don't have it, the publisher doesn't have it.

Mr Campbell gives us the example of this dictionary. You charged $49 on the government list price. He says he could have bought it for $19 in a bookstore.

You refuse to tell us who has the money. It seems that about $20 million in textbook money has gone missing. Who has the money? It's a very simple question. Do we have to send over a looking glass so you can look through your files? The schools don't have the money, the publishers don't have the money, yet you charge inflated prices for those books. Who has the money, Minister? Show us the money, the $20 million.

Hon David Johnson: The antics of the leader of the third party are unbelievable. This process is simple to understand. We've received 3.2 million books for elementary students across the province. We've received a huge discount involving $13 million. Do you know where that $13 million is going? I'll tell you where every last nickel of that $13 million in discount is going, and by the way, that's an unparalleled discount in Ontario. Every last nickel is going to the students of Ontario. That's where the money is going to.

It's going to every elementary school across the province. If you want to fight against the books, if you want to fight against the quality, you go ahead and do it. But I'll tell you, this government has introduced a system to put 3.2 million books into the elementary schools at the best possible price we could get.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): There are a couple of members here in the opposition gallery today who were in the previous parliament. Mr Dan Waters was the provincial member for Muskoka-Georgian Bay. Welcome. Larry O'Connor was the previous member for Durham-York, now a councillor for Durham region. Welcome. There is life after this place.

New question, third party.

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My second question is for the minister responsible for women's issues. On July 2, two full months ago, a coroner's jury gave you 213 recommendations that would have gone a very long way in preventing the tragic death of Arlene May. On July 10, my colleague the member for Riverdale called on you publicly to implement those recommendations. You have done nothing. Not one of those recommendations from the coroner's jury has been implemented.

Since July 2, eight more women in Ontario have died. Eight more women with a history of abuse have been killed. Minister, it was unnecessary for a single one of those women to die. Every one of those tragic incidents could have been prevented. If you were to increase their protection, make the changes the coroner's jury implored you to make, then some of those lives might have been saved. When will you implement the 213 recommendations?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): In response to what I think is a very serious question, yes, we did get the recommendations on July 2. There was a committee put in place in anticipation of these recommendations. My colleagues the Attorney General and the Solicitor General will respond to these recommendations pertaining to the inquest jury's justice system recommendations in the appropriate time, as was the Minister of Community and Social Services responding to the recommendations pertaining to shelter services.

We have reviewed the jury's recommendations at the Ontario Women's Directorate and will continue to consult with Status of Women, Canada, regarding follow-up of all of these recommendations with regard to the jury's suggestions and recommendations.

Mr Hampton: Minister, there were 213 specific recommendations. You don't need to go and consult on those. You could have implemented many of those recommendations by now. In fact, what you're doing is going in the opposite direction, because the coroner's jury heard evidence as to why your government's action are inadequate. Specifically, they called on you to develop police and court protocols so that victims are better protected. But we know you're doing exactly the opposite.

For example, because of your government's cuts, courts in Ontario no longer serve court documents, and that includes restraining orders. What it means is that women who have been repeatedly abused have to risk their safety to go tell their abuser that the court says he is no longer supposed to go near them. Because of your cuts, you've put women in that situation of risk. Minister, how could you put so many women across this province at risk by putting them in that situation?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: I am not going to respond to the specific example that the leader of the party did bring to our attention today. But I will in this regard: With regard to the courts, we have focused since day one on improving the court system. We have increased the number of victim/witness assistance programs. We have created eight new domestic violence courts which are dedicated to prosecuting abusers and supporting witnesses. We have expanded the domestic assault review teams, which combine the efforts of justice officials with community groups to help combat domestic violence.

As we speak, crowns are receiving training on domestic violence and sexual assault. We have established a ministry working group, which I referred to earlier, that is seriously looking at additional recommendations we will respond to in a positive way.

I will respond to the example given to me by the leader of the party in a very few moments because I actually can't respond this minute. I'm sure it does fit into the programs I have already described.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Final supplementary.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): Minister, while you fiddle over there in forming committees, eight more women have died. How many more are going to die while you fiddle and try to set up committees? Not only have you ignored the advice of this jury, a jury that spent months examining in detail how the justice system fails women; your government is now making matters even worse. This is the ultimate offence against women whose lives are in danger.

We're talking here about women who have a history of being repeatedly beaten up. Now they have to put themselves in further jeopardy by taking the court order to their abuser themselves. Can you imagine having to do that? Leaving aside the inadequacies of restraining orders, your government has placed the responsibility for the court order to be delivered to the abuser with the victim. I'll repeat the question, Minister: How can you put so many women at risk?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: Domestic violence is a serious crime. This government will not tolerate it. We have worked with members of this House and members of the community across Ontario to make things better. We knew that the May-Iles jury recommendations would be very specific. We were witnesses during the trial. We have met with people who are involved with the trial recommendations across nine ministries.

It isn't easy to change some of these procedures. But I will say that we have been widely complimented by the jury with regard to a lot of work that has taken place with this government.

Ms Churley: Eight women have died since those recommendations came out.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: With regard to the death of eight women, as I listen to the member of the opposition rant at us, not once have I received some positive suggestions from this member as a critic.

The Speaker: Answer.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: Not once have we received any assistance as I have reached out to speak with her about her -

The Speaker: Thank you. New question, official opposition.

HOSPITAL FUNDING

Mr Gerard Kennedy (York South): I have a question for the Minister of Health. I want to mark with you a very significant day of achievement for the Harris health policy. It's another dubious milestone you reached today.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. We have a new question being put. We'll start again.

Mr Kennedy: Thank you, Speaker. It is important that the minister does hear about the milestone that she is achieving today, that the Harris government's bumbling health policy is accomplishing. We've got another hospital in the province going broke, and this time it's the Ottawa Hospital. The Ottawa Hospital can't serve the patients it's supposed to with the money you provide, so instead, to pay its bills, starting tomorrow, starting in October, it has to go to the banks to do that.

You should be ashamed enough about that, but it's not as if you didn't know and you weren't in a position to prevent this. This hospital came to you last year and came to you again last week with a plan to provide services to patients, to actually keep open three sites, including the Riverside Hospital, and to do this with fewer capital dollars but with a higher level of service to patients.

You've got no plan of your own to help patients in Ottawa. You've had your hospital destruction commission there three times. It has no credibility. Today will you agree to the Ottawa Hospital plan to protect patients, or will you force them to go to banks and cut services -

The Speaker: Thank you. Minister of Health.

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): I'm not sure who it is that doesn't have credibility, but I would certainly indicate to you that our government has had a plan of action since we were elected in 1995. I can also say to you that since that time I haven't seen a Liberal plan of action. In fact, what has first been done is that you have been doing a tremendous amount of disservice to people in the province. A good example of that is the recent editorial in the Sudbury Star.

The Sudbury Star says: "Ontario Liberal Party health critic Gerard Kennedy needs to do some explaining if he wants anyone to believe his claim that $27 million will be taken from Sudbury's health system next year. Otherwise, the statement made by Kennedy in Sudbury this week is nothing more than a cheap attempt at electioneering that thoughtful voters" -

The Speaker: Thank you. Supplementary.

Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West): - roughly two and a half hospitals, driving them into debt.

The Speaker: Order. Member for Ottawa West, you're not in your seat. Could you please go to your seat.

Mr Kennedy: Minister, unlike you and your government, we're accountable. We've responded to this -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Stop the clock. Supplementary.

Mr Kennedy: We stand accountable for our figures. I challenge you to debate outside this House, where I'll prove to you you're cutting $27 million from Sudbury. I've written to the Sudbury Star. I'll see you there.

What I want to hear from you is not a shrug to the people of Ottawa, because $65 million has been cut from Ottawa by you and your government and that plan that you claim. You may be proud of that and your members may be proud of that, but we told you -

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): Wrong, wrong.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Member for Nepean, come to order, and the Minister of Community and Social Services as well, and the Minister of Labour.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Don't tell me it was him behind you.

Mr Kennedy: The people of Ottawa want more than a shrug and political pranks from you. They want you to answer why there's $65 million less.

This morning our office talked to Hayem Qirbi. Hayem Qirbi has a son, Waleed, who is 26 years old. He's in the Ottawa Civic Hospital. He's suffering because of your cuts. Waleed Qirbi is attended to 12 hours a day by his parents and 12 hours a day by a nurse that they have to pay for. Hayem Qirbi, thanks to the Harris health policies, is paying $8,000 a month. Minister, will you act today to help the Qirbis and the other families who won't have proper hospital care unless you move to help them out?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I'm very pleased at the investment our government has made in Ottawa-Carleton. We need to indicate that the only government that has cut health care spending is the federal government. We have seen a decrease in transfer payments. I'm very proud of the fact that we are helping all people in Ottawa-Carleton. I'm pleased to say that we are spending almost $87 million more in health services in Ottawa above and beyond the Liberal numbers that you have been communicating.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Nepean, member for York South, come to order. Member for Etobicoke-Humber.

New question, third party.

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I have a question for the Minister of Education and Training. As the minister will know, tonight anxious parents are gathering in Clinton to talk about the future of their public school. The problem they face is this government's change in the way it funds space in schools. Every school in a board's jurisdiction must be operating at 100% capacity. For the parents and elementary students in Clinton, like the parents of children in 19 other schools in the Avon Maitland District School Board, this means their school must close.

The plan in Clinton is to combine the local high school with a school building which will house all the students from junior kindergarten to OAC, 900 students. This kind of thing is happening all over Ontario. In the community of Duntroon, just south of Collingwood, they're going to eliminate a school that's been in that community for 120 years. Does the minister really think this is good planning for education for our students and for our communities across Ontario?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): This government has not only encouraged but required local school boards, if they're contemplating any such change in accommodation space, to consult with parents and to work out accommodation plans with parents in their communities.

There is no requirement to close any school. The province of Ontario is not requiring any board to close any school. The province is giving funding to the school boards - funding for operations, funding for facilities renewal - based on the student population they have. The boards have full leeway to use those monies to incorporate whatever schools they wish. Some boards are more frugal than others; some boards are able to operate under different configurations. That they need to do, and planning in conjunction with their parents. This is a matter for the school boards and the parents to work out.

Mr Wildman: The minister will know that these schools are closing because of his government's defunding formula for school boards, not because they don't have enough students. Some 29 Catholic schools in Toronto and 100 public schools are on the list for consideration for closure. I'll give you a couple of examples. In the Thames Valley District School Board, all of the elementary schools are now operating at 90% capacity - all of them. Because of this government's funding formula, you say they have 5,500 too many student spaces and that's why some of their schools have to close.

They're operating at 90% capacity. In Peel region, 70 schools are operating between 90% and 95% capacity, and that, according to you, means they have too many student spaces.

Some members of the minister's own expert panel developing the funding plan recommended that the formula be based on 90% capacity, not 100% capacity, as you are insisting. Why wouldn't it make more sense to fund schools on the basis of operation at 90% capacity -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you. Minister.

Hon David Johnson: School boards have opened schools, school boards have closed schools, down through the years. When the member opposite was in power, when his party was in power for five years, there were over 100 schools closed in Ontario. This happens each and every year. School boards are given grants from Ontario. They make determinations as to where schools should be opened. I might say that for small schools, this government has actually more than doubled the amount of monies going to small schools; in remote and rural areas, again, more than doubled the amount of money going to remote and rural areas.

These monies are going to the school boards. The school boards are working with the parents to come up with the best solutions in their community.

I just want to say finally -

The Speaker: Answer.

Hon David Johnson: - that in terms of the overall funding in the classroom and in totality there will be more money spent in the elementary and secondary schools this year than ever before.

YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT

Mr Jack Carroll (Chatham-Kent): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Last week, Mike Harris and you launched in Paris, Ontario, the $35-million rural youth job strategy. The next day I had the pleasure of touring with you down in Essex county, in Leamington and in Ridgetown. One of the groups we met with was a group of parents and children involved in the burgeoning greenhouse industry in the Leamington area. Those young people have the advantage of enjoying life and opportunity in rural Ontario.

I know that we as a government would like all young people to have that same kind of opportunity if they choose, and all of Ontario to enjoy the prosperity of a strong Ontario economy. Could you tell us how the rural youth job strategy program will improve the skills of youth in rural Ontario and the job opportunities?

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I want to thank my colleague from Chatham-Kent for his question. Yes, I was very proud to be beside the Premier in Paris, Ontario, a week ago when we announced the rural youth job strategy, a strategy that was put together by young people, for young people after consultation with some 1,200 young people, business people and entrepreneurs in rural Ontario. It's a four-year, $35-million program and it is new money, and I emphasize new money.

It's tailor-made for young people outside our big cities. It is a strategy that will keep young people where they were born, raised and educated, so that they don't have to go to the urban areas to obtain employment. It's a four-year program and I know it will serve rural youth in Ontario very well.

Mr Carroll: We all know that Ontario is once again the best place to live, work and raise a family, thanks in great part to the courage of the Mike Harris government. Previous governments have launched many make-work projects, designed to create temporary jobs subsidized with the taxpayers' hard-earned dollars. Can you assure the House today that the rural youth job strategy is not just another typical band-aid, short-term program, but in actual fact is a real investment in the youth of rural Ontario?

Hon Mr Villeneuve: The rural youth job strategy is oriented towards forming partnerships with the private sector, where at least 50% of the funds will come from the private sector. The government of Ontario will be there to fund up to 50%. But what will make this program work is that the initiative from the private sector and the partnerships will have at least 50% invested, and the government will support that. I certainly anticipate there will be long-term jobs in rural Ontario to keep our young people where they want to stay.

HAZARDOUS WASTE

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): My question is to the Minister of the Environment. In your rush to deregulate your ministry and basically make the role of your ministry irrelevant to the people of Ontario, you have reached what I believe is a new low. In a proposal that you posted - and it has had negative feedback from groups in response - you are now proposing a regulation change that funeral homes and hospitals dispose of blood and blood products through a sewer system. As you know, Minister, it is currently a hazardous waste.

It has to be treated as such, it has to be contained as such, and it cannot simply be disposed of down the sewer. In the regulations you posted as a proposal, you are now saying that if you get your way, it is OK in Ontario to dump blood into the sewer system right across this province, basically endangering the health of Ontarians every single day.

You have not undertaken any studies into the safety of this. I want to ask you, Minister, do you think it is a good idea to dump blood and blood products down the sewer system in the province of Ontario?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Of course we're concerned about anything that goes into the municipally owned sewer systems across our province. There has been a technical review of putting this waste product into the sewer system. The regulation the member talks about of course separates out the toxic or the blood which would have come from someone who is seriously ill, where there was a contaminant in that blood. It's clear within that regulation that that blood would not be placed in any kind of sewage. Blood is a biological product, like the other biological products that go into our sanitary sewers as well.

Mr Agostino: That is an amazing answer, that you now are going to be able to separate and tell which is hazardous and which is not hazardous and you're going to ship it to different places or simply put it down the sewer. It is bizarre.

Minister, as you know, you cannot guarantee the safety. You cannot stand up today and give us a 100% guarantee that sewage treatment plants, the water systems in this province, do not fail and that mistakes do not occur, and often in septic tanks, which are included in your regulations, there is also failure. What you're doing in this proposal, frankly, bizarre as it's going to sound to most Ontarians, is putting the health of Ontarians in jeopardy.

There is no system - you have no scientific evidence to show us - that is foolproof, that is totally safe. I just cannot believe that you will not stand today and totally dismiss this ridiculous, stupid suggestion that is listed. You're telling Ontarians that it's acceptable to put this down the sewer system -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Order. Member, put that down. Thank you.

Hon Mr Sterling: Unfortunately, all the allegations put forward by the member opposite would not stand the test in terms of any kind of medical, technical examination. I think what we should do is act in reaction to what the technical experts advise us about what our sewage plants can handle. This regulation, which hasn't been approved but is there for the public to comment on - if evidence is brought forward during this review period which says this is a bad proposal, then we won't do it, but the evidence to date is that this is the best way to deal with this waste product. That is what the technical answer is.

ROAD SAFETY

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): My question is to the Minister of Transportation. I want to ask and try to change your attitude today, if I may, on the question of red light traffic deaths, because what I heard from you yesterday I found unacceptable.

You know that the mayor of Toronto and the chief of police here in Toronto yesterday appealed to you to allow video cameras to be used in charging motorists who run red lights. I don't need to remind you, I hope, that this is about stopping a crime that killed 16 people in the GTA alone last year.

So I hope you will answer with more than just the sarcasm with which you treated the issue yesterday and take seriously the proposal which I sent to you earlier in our letter, in which I indicated to you our willingness on behalf of our caucus to offer quick passage to a bill which would make the necessary amendments to the Highway Traffic Act and the Municipal Act, if that's required, to be able to put in place red lights so we can put a stop to the deaths that might continue if the situation is allowed to continue. Will you do that, Minister?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Transportation): I'd like to thank the honourable member for the letter, which I did receive today, and treat the question in the spirit in which it was intended, as a serious question on a serious issue.

Indeed the honourable member is quite correct: Red light running is a fatal problem. About 2% of all fatalities occur at intersections as a result of red light running, and that's 2% too many as far as this government is concerned.

Just as this government introduced community safety zone legislation which allowed a doubling of fines by municipalities, just as this government introduced, through Mr Eves's budget, more money for community policing, just as this government more than doubled the minimum fine and increased the set fine for red light running, in the spirit of co-operation I'd be more than happy to sit down with the honourable member, and if he has some creative solutions that allow us to use the technology and identify and target the aggressive drivers in our society, I'm all ears and I'd be quite happy to work with him and his caucus.

Mr Silipo: I don't know if that was a bit of an opening on the minister's side or if he's simply reiterating his position that until there is a way that only addresses the issue of drivers and the privacy concern that he has continued to raise here, that is going to be used as a way to stop him from bringing forward legislation.

I just want to say to the member, bring forward a package of legislation. Let us sort out the problems, if there are problems. You know our commitment. You know our commitment to photo radar. You know, therefore, that we're prepared to get this legislation done. The testing that was done at the corner of Dufferin and St Clair showed incredible numbers: in 110 hours, 301 red light runners; 65 every 24 hours.

If you are concerned about the privacy concern, listen to the words of the chief of police, who said, "Boy, there's no privacy issue when we have an ambulance pull up and we pick up kids off the street and send them to the hospital." We can deal with the privacy concerns. Bring forward the legislation, take us up on our offer, and let's get this legislation in place before more people are killed.

Hon Mr Clement: I don't mean to be dramatic, but I find myself more in agreement with the honourable member. I don't believe I raised privacy concerns. I believe those can be overcome provided it is done in a certain way.

The key issue for me, and evidently for the honourable member, is effectiveness, making sure that we have the tools necessary, using the technology, using other tools available to us to ensure that we identify that red-light-runner driver, the aggressive driver, issue the demerit points, jack up the insurance rate, target all our sanctions. That will be an effective solution to this problem.

If the honourable member and his caucus have some solutions in this regard - we are already accepting solutions or proposals from the Ontario Safety League, from other organizations that care about getting at this problem - and if his caucus is willing to work with us, I think in the spirit of co-operation we can come to a solution. In fact, I'm sure we can.

HEALTH CARE FRAUD

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): My question to the Minister of Health concerns health fraud. In the Toronto Sun on September 23 there was an

article in which the police had accused an individual of overbilling the province's health system by some $90,000. This is the kind of misuse that is very damaging to the health system. Those dollars should be spent on patient care and should not be wasted on fraud. As everyone knows, we're spending $1.2 billion more now on health care than we did when we became the government and we want to make sure that this health fraud is kept to a minimum. Can you explain to the House what initiatives your ministry is taking to combat health fraud?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Minister of Health): Our government has certainly moved forward, I think very aggressively, to ensure that all health care dollars are spent on health services for patients. We did initiate a 1-800 number. We also have a 1-800 number in place so that providers can validate health cards. Fortunately, as a result, what we see happening is that we are removing ineligible health cards from the system.

Probably one of the other very significant initiatives we have undertaken that is having a good impact is the fact that we now have a coordinator who is dealing with anti-fraud programs and has a staff to assist. We are doing everything possible to ensure that those people who are not entitled to health cards have those health cards removed. If people are fraudulently using the system, then certainly charges are being laid.

Mr Grimmett: You've outlined a number of initiatives but I would like to hear more results. What tangible results is the ministry actually recognizing or achieving in combatting health fraud? I wonder if you could outline to us some more tangible results. It's fine to bring in programs, but are they working?

Hon Mrs Witmer: I'm very pleased to say that our programs are working. They are working extremely well. We have received, since the program was started in 1997, to the public health fraud action line approximately 1,558 calls. In the last five months alone we have received 928 reports of alleged fraud. All of these calls are thoroughly investigated, and I am very pleased to say that these investigations have resulted in ending eligibility for 42% of the cases. As well, the ministry has initiated 15 prosecutions of health fraud involving 35 charges.

We have obtained three convictions, the balance are in the courts, and so far those three convictions have resulted in $92,000 in restitution. That money is returned and it goes to help patients.

JAIL CLOSURES

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): My question is to the Solicitor General and it concerns the policy of jail closures in eastern Ontario. As the minister knows, I attended a meeting in Brockville last week where he announced that four eastern Ontario jails will be closed in favour of a mega-jail in his own riding. Among the facilities to be closed is a Cornwall jail, which will result in a loss of employment of possibly 40 employees in Cornwall and area. Let me tell you that 40 jobs in the Cornwall area is a very big hit. These workers have valuable experience in the correctional service and have been trained at the expense of the taxpayers.

While it has been hinted they may be offered employment at the mega-jail, there is a lot of uncertainty about their future. Will you guarantee that all classified employees working at a facility slated for closure will have full employment at the new Brockville centre? Will you also assure that the non-classified and support staff will be given a chance to win back their jobs? Will you here and now make this commitment to those employees?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I have made that commitment with respect to classified employees, not necessarily Brockville but also the Ottawa detention centre, which is being expanded by a 200-bed addition. We see no reason for any lost opportunity for current classified employees. What we've said with respect to unclassified employees is that we will make every possible effort to provide employment opportunities for unclassified personnel.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Supplementary.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): The Pembroke Jail is also slated to close under your proposal and the people of the Upper Ottawa Valley are upset and angry at the loss of their provincial jail. Why? Because under the superjail proposal it's going to mean that residents and communities in the Upper Ottawa Valley are going to face minimally a four- and five-hour round trip to the nearest jail, not in Pembroke, but in Ottawa and Brockville. It's going to turn our police and correctional service into an expensive and chaotic taxi service. It is going to impose real and additional costs on local police forces and local property taxpayers.

Perhaps most importantly and most seriously, it is going to reduce the access of rural residents in Upper Ottawa Valley communities like Pembroke and Petawawa and Killaloe and Whitney and Deep River to the justice system. They are going to lose sentencing options like the weekend pass and the intermittent sentencing option. Why?

The Speaker: Answer.

Mr Conway:

Whereas the old jail used to be in Pembroke, they're now going to find themselves two and three hours away from home and work. Minister, in light of the unfairness of the policy that would close the Pembroke Jail, will you now stand in your place and tell the rural residents of the Upper Ottawa Valley that their jail will remain open and -

The Speaker: Thank you. Minister.

Hon Mr Runciman: I appreciate the member's concerns with respect to this. Any time there is a job loss in the community, we're all concerned. Certainly I've experienced that, as have many members in this Legislature.

What we are doing with respect to the restructuring process is addressing the call of the Provincial Auditor in two reports, talking about the very high-cost system of corrections in Ontario. We currently have the highest-cost provincial system in the country, significantly higher than in other provinces. We are making an effort, which the NDP initiated some time ago, to close our older, high-cost, inefficient and in many respects unsafe facilities. In the Pembroke situation it's a very old facility, as the member knows.

Mr Conway: Newly renovated.

Hon Mr Runciman: Newly renovated but still significant per diem costs to the province of Ontario and our taxpayers.

With respect to the transportation issue, I recognize that. We have made a commitment with respect to transportation of prisoners.

The Speaker: Answer.

Hon Mr Runciman: New facilities will also have remand video, remand facilities within these new facilities, which will provide an opportunity for reduced transportation requirements. I think we're -

The Speaker: Thank you. New question.

Point of order, Minister.

Mr Conway: This policy will tell people -

The Speaker: Order. We have a point of order.

Mr Conway: - in Toronto that their neighbourhood jail is in Sarnia.

The Speaker: Member for Renfrew North, come to order. I warn you to come to order.

Mr Conway: This is a scandal. Absolutely unfair.

The Speaker: Member for Renfrew North, I'm not going to warn you again.

Minister.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In my response to the leader of the third party with regard to the restraining order -

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. She's correcting her record from a previous question. I think you'll want to hear it probably and it will be very quick.

Point of order.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: I think that the members of the House would want to know that there have been improvements to the restraining order process and I didn't say that in response to my question with regard to the integrated -

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): That's not correcting the record.

The Speaker: Hold it. Let's go to question period and then maybe it would be more appropriate if you'd correct your record after.

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

Mr Wayne Lessard (Windsor-Riverside): My question is to the Minister of Education and Training. Your reforms to the apprenticeship program are causing concerns as it becomes clearer how bad your changes are going to be to apprentices and to our economy.

Your legislation, Bill 55, creates new tuition fees, eliminates important protections for workers, deregulates and lowers wages. But I guess that's not much of a surprise as it's part of your government's agenda, its race to the bottom. When we ask your officials why you're doing this, why you're scrapping these protections that have existed in law for many years, we're told, "Wait until you see the regulations."

Minister, we don't want to wait that long. Will you commit today to table the full apprenticeship regulations in this House before Bill 55 is called for second reading?

Hon David Johnson (Minister of Education and Training): We have come forward with the apprenticeship legislation, the first legislation, I might say, since 1964. That's how far out of date the apprenticeship legislation is, and if you think back to the conditions in 1964 in 1998, obviously they're extremely different.

We've gone through an extensive consultation with the stakeholders. The member opposite mentioned tuition fees, and I've already announced that tuition fees will not be included until we have completed negotiations with the federal government with regard to a labour market agreement. Then, at that point, there will also have to be financial assistance to those apprentices who need assistance going through the program.

Quite simply, there are many opportunities in our economy for apprentices, whether tool and die makers, hairdressers, cooks and bakers, any number of the skilled trades. Our apprenticeship system is rooted in the 1960s and needs to be brought up to date to offer people the opportunities in the 1990s.

Mr Lessard: Minister, part of bringing that legislation up to date requires you to have meaningful consultation with the people who are going to be affected by it. We know what you mean by consultation. It means meeting but not listening.

Today we have representatives from the OFL apprenticeship committee and from the buildings trades in the gallery: Sandra Clifford from the OFL, James Moffatt from the Sheet Metal Workers, Ron Groulx from the Boilermakers and John Maceroni from the Painters union. They have been trying to tell you that this legislation is going in the wrong direction. We even know some employers' groups that don't like what you're doing.

All we have, as far as what you're proposing in regulations, is this, A Framework for Revised Regulations, a one-page document. I ask you once again, Minister, will you commit to tabling the full regulations before you call Bill 55 for second reading?

Hon David Johnson: We have committed to consultations throughout this process. Indeed, some of the representatives whom you've announced here today have been an integral part of these consultations - the sheet Metal Workers, the Ontario Federation of Labour.

What we need to accomplish is to bring the apprenticeship system in tune with the 1990s as we approach the millennium, because there are just so many opportunities. We believe that through the reforms in this legislation and through giving more authority to the various trades and the pacts associated with the various industries we can double the number of new apprentices coming into the system.

We intend to carry on with this legislation, we intend to carry on with our consultations. We intend to bring forward a new piece of legislation and have it debated here, of course, which we've already announced, one that will encourage more people under current conditions to pursue terrific opportunities within the economy in Ontario.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I file under standing order 37(

a) my complete dissatisfaction with the response of the minister of corrections to my concern about the arbitrary and unfair closure of the Pembroke Jail, and I expect a late show at a conveniently early time.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: This is with regard to restraining orders and the question that I received from the leader of the third party. I don't think I was firm in saying that in fact the restraining order -

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): OK, but I need your point of order. What's your point of order?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: My point of order is that it was implied that the system isn't working and now I'm answering the question by saying that it is working -

The Speaker: I understand that, and that's probably a statement or a question or something, but I know what it's not; it's not a point of order.

PETITIONS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I have a petition signed by about 100 residents from Cornwall and S-D-G.

"I support the commission's preliminary decision to restructure health services in Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry and Prescott and Russell counties which specifies that:

"The Cornwall General Hospital will be renovated in order to consolidate all acute (which includes all diagnostic testing, emergency and critical care services, obstetrics, paediatrics, surgery and acute medical), rehabilitation and mental health services in Cornwall, eliminating duplication of any unnecessary services between the CGH and the HDH;

"The Hotel Dieu Hospital will provide all complex continuing care and subacute care. This will allow it to build on its experience providing long-term care;

"The Cornwall General Hospital presents a better option for the delivery of acute services because of better layout and service relationship and recent renovation to emergency, critical care and operating rooms;

"All acute services will be provided in a public non-denominational setting that recognizes all individuals as equals regardless of race, creed or religion;

"$15.2 million is required for renovation and expansion projects, furniture and equipment for the two hospitals: $5.9 million for Hotel Dieu Hospital in Cornwall; $9.3 million for Cornwall General Hospital.

"The commission stated that due to physical plant limitation, consolidation of all services (all acute and chronic care) at the Cornwall General site is not possible and the capital cost for the one-site option at Hotel Dieu is very high at $25.6 million. This option was not considered by the commission as a viable option for the taxpayers in Cornwall. Basically, the configuration of the Hotel Dieu site is a new complex continuing care hospital pavilion attached to a very old acute care facility.

"French-language services to be strengthened in both hospitals;

"The two hospitals, along with a representative from the community care access centre form a joint executive committee to build on existing alliances to ensure continuity of service to the patients and residents of Cornwall and surrounding areas during and after the restructuring of hospital services."

CANCER PREVENTION

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I have thousands of signatures on petitions I've been collecting for months now. These are from CAW Local 1530 and CAW Local 636. They read:

"Petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas cancer claims in excess of 20,000 lives annually in Ontario alone; and

"Whereas cancer treatment costs Ontario taxpayers in excess of $1 billion annually; and

"Whereas the best way to fight cancer or any disease is through preventative measures; and

"Whereas the Ontario Task Force on the Primary Prevention of Cancer has advised the government to set realistic and realizable targets for phasing out the release of environmental toxins; and

"Whereas the Legislative Assembly on April 18, 1996, passed a resolution to that effect with support from all three parties;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario as follows:

"The Premier and the Minister of Health should immediately implement the April 18 resolution and strike a working committee to begin the task of setting realistic targets for the phase-out of persistent bio-accumulative environmental toxins."

I will affix my signature to these petitions.

ABORTION

Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins (Quinte): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury, or illness, and abortions are not therapeutic procedures; and

"Whereas the vast majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience or finance; and

"Whereas the province has the exclusive authority to determine what services will be insured; and

"Whereas the Canada Health Act does not require funding for elective procedures; and

"Whereas there is mounting evidence that abortion is in fact hazardous to women's health;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

They're signed by some 1,000 people from my riding.

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a petition seeking support from the members of Parliament.

"I support the commission's preliminary decision to restructure health services in Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry and Prescott and Russell counties which specifies that:

"The Cornwall General Hospital will be renovated in order to consolidate all acute (which includes all diagnostic testing, emergency and critical care services, obstetrics, paediatrics, surgery and acute medical), rehabilitation and mental health services in Cornwall, eliminating duplication of any unnecessary services between the CGH and the HDH;

"The Hotel Dieu Hospital will provide all complex continuing care and subacute care. This will allow it to build on its experience providing long-term care;

"The Cornwall General Hospital presents a better option for the delivery of acute services because of better layout and service relationship and recent renovation to emergency, critical care and operating rooms;

"All acute services will be provided in a public non-denominational setting that recognizes all individuals as equals regardless of race, creed or religion;

"$15.2 million is required for renovation and expansion projects, furniture and equipment for the two hospitals: $5.9 million for Hotel Dieu Hospital in Cornwall; $9.3 million for Cornwall General Hospital.

"The commission stated that due to physical plant limitation, consolidation of all services (all acute and chronic care) at the Cornwall General site is not possible and the capital cost for the one-site option at Hotel Dieu is very high at $25.6 million. This option was not considered by the commission as a viable option for the taxpayers in Cornwall. Basically, the configuration of the Hotel Dieu site is a new complex continuing care hospital pavilion attached to a very old acute care facility.

"French-language services to be strengthened in both hospitals;

"The two hospitals, along with a representative from the community care access centre form a joint executive committee to build on existing alliances to ensure continuity of service to the patients and residents of Cornwall and surrounding areas during and after the restructuring of hospital services."

I affix my signature, in full agreement with the petition.

ABORTION

Mr Bob Wood (London South): I have a petition signed by 117 people.

"Whereas the health system is overburdened and unnecessary spending must be cut; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury or illness and abortions are not therapeutic procedures; and

"Whereas the vast majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience or finance; and

"Whereas the province has exclusive authority to determine what services will be insured; and

"Whereas the Canada Health Act does not require funding for elective procedures; and

"Whereas there is mounting evidence that abortion is in fact hazardous to women's health; and

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

DIABETES EDUCATION SERVICES

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I have a petition that reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Diabetes Education Service in Kenora is a necessary program; and

"Whereas the Harris government has refused to provide long-term funding for diabetes education in Kenora; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has acknowledged that the program is cost-effective given the volume of clients seen and the degree of specialization required;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, join our MPP, Frank Miclash, in calling upon the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to demand that the Harris government provide long-term, stable funding to the Diabetes Education Service in Kenora."

I too have affixed my signature to the petition.

ABORTION

Mrs Barbara Fisher (Bruce): I have petitions here today from Mildmay, Teeswater, Walkerton and Formosa. The petition reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Ontario taxpayers funded over 45,000 abortions in 1993 at an estimated cost of $25 million; and

"Whereas pregnancy is not a disease, injury, or illness, and abortions are not therapeutic procedures; and

"Whereas the vast majority of abortions are done for reasons of convenience or finance; and

"Whereas the province has the exclusive authority to determine what services will be insured; and

"Whereas the Canada Health Act does not require funding for elective procedures; and

"Whereas there is mounting evidence that abortion is in fact hazardous to women's health;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cease from providing any taxpayers' dollars for the performance of abortions."

I have signed my name to the top of each of the petitions.

DIABETES EDUCATION SERVICES

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a petition here:

"To the Legislative Assembly:

"Whereas the Diabetes Education Service at Lake of the Woods District Hospital in Kenora, Ontario, is an essential component of health care, we, the undersigned, petition the Minister of Health of Ontario as follows:

"For permanent funding for the diabetes education service."

I affix my signature in full agreement with this petition.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr Toni Skarica (Wentworth North): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that reads in part:

"Whereas the town of Flamborough has placed $639,000 of a $1.354-million provincial grant into the Borer's Creek reserve fund;

"Whereas the town of Flamborough's diversion of $639,000 into a Borer's Creek fund will result in an approximate 5.71% property tax increase;

"Whereas the town of Flamborough, by returning the said $639,000 to the Flamborough property taxpayers as intended by the province, will result in an approximate 5% property tax decrease;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To take the steps necessary to ensure that the $1.354-million grant paid by the province of Ontario to the town of Flamborough be applied for the purposes it was intended for, thereby ensuring that the residents of Flamborough not be subjected to unfair property tax increases."

I have over 200 names signed on this petition, and I add my signature to it.

PROTECTION FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS

Mr Dave Boushy (Sarnia): I have a petition from my riding signed by 100 people. It starts:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas nurses in Ontario often experience coercion to participate in practices which directly contravene their deeply held ethical standards; and

"Whereas pharmacists in Ontario are often pressured to dispense and/or sell chemicals and/or devices contrary to their moral or religious beliefs..."

And it ends with:

"We, the undersigned, urge the government of Ontario to enact legislation explicitly recognizing the freedom of conscience of health care workers, prohibiting coercion of and unjust discrimination against health care workers because of their refusal to participate in matters contrary to the dictates of their consciences and establishing penalties for such coercion and unjust discrimination."

I added my signature to it.

ELECTORAL REFORM

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): I have a petition to the Ontario Legislature. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the current electoral system allows for large majority governments to be elected in the Ontario Legislature with the support of less than 50% of the voters; and

"Whereas in a democratic election voters should be free to vote for the candidate who best represents them; and

"Whereas every voter casts only one vote, and every vote cast, whether for the winner of a constituency or not, should count to elect a member of the provincial Parliament; and

"Whereas voters have the right to fair representation in the Legislature;

"Whereas modern democracies from New Zealand to Germany to Japan have adopted a mixed-member proportional electoral system; and

"Whereas with the new redistribution of boundaries in Ontario the number of MPPs will be reduced from 130 to 103;

"We respectfully request that the Ontario Election Act be modified so that the residual votes in each constituency (ie the votes not used to elect the winner of that constituency) be accumulated with the residual votes in all other constituencies and used to elect an additional 26 MPPs. They would be selected from published party lists, in proportion to the total number of residual votes for each political party."

It's signed by a number of my constituents from the Rockwood area.

DENTAL CARE

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and it reads like this:

"Whereas a new

schedule of dental services for children and people with disabilities was introduced by the government under the Ontario Works Act and the Ontario Disability Support Program Act; and

"Whereas the new

schedule fails to meet the special needs of children and people with disabilities, reduces services, places barriers to accessing care and creates an environment for various different dental programs across Ontario; and

"Whereas the move away from an emphasis on prevention under the new dental

schedule brings significant health risks for children and people with disabilities who are often least able to practise good oral hygiene; and

"Whereas the new dental

schedule interferes with the patients' rights to consent to treatment by requiring administrators, and not patients or substitute decision-makers, to authorize and deny dental treatment; and

"Whereas there is no method for the patient to appeal a decision by a plan administrator to deny dental treatment; and

"Whereas pre-authorizations, called predeterminations in the new plan, will require that a higher level of confidential patient health information be disclosed to dental plan administrators; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has caused confusion among patients by introducing the plan without prior consultation" - typical - "and has not included any affected patient groups in consultations after releasing the new dental plan;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly as follows:

"Delay full implementation of the new dental plan until the requirement for predeterminations is removed, patient confidentiality is protected, the plan emphasizes prevention in oral health care, and the government consults directly with affected patients to ensure the new plan will meet the special needs of children and people with disabilities."

I affix my signature as I'm in total agreement with it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INSTRUCTION TIME: MINIMUM STANDARDS ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 SUR LES HEURES D'ENSEIGNEMENT : NORMES MINIMALES

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 63,

An Act to amend the Education Act with respect to instructional time / Projet de loi 63, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'éducation en ce qui concerne les heures d'enseignement.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, I was talking about the Tory math and how we are trying to do an equation that just doesn't work, because the Tory funding figures are such that it means the number of students in classes, the number of minutes of instruction, cannot be worked out according to what the government continues to say.

Under the so-called Mike's math lesson, 24 minutes per day equals 25 more students per day. Also according to Tory math, 22 equals 30 or 31 or 32 or 33. I'll explain this in this way: You have to understand that the numbers 22 and 25 are very flexible in the Tory mind. They expand. People have been told that teachers are only being asked to teach an extra 25 minutes per day. They're also being asked to believe that every class in every high school in Ontario has 22 students. This is how the Tories have been told to express their arithmetic.

Tories have been told to insist that 25 extra minutes a day is really little to ask a teacher. They're not to explain, however, that 25 doesn't really mean 25 minutes or to explain how the 25 minutes are to be used.

Teachers, as many people may know, have offered to lengthen classes so that each student could have more time in each class. The Tories, however, have rejected this idea because it means they would not be able to get rid of teachers. They don't want teachers to have longer classes and thus have more instructional time based on longer classes, even though that would mean each teacher has more time with the students. They want to cut the number of teachers, so the Tories want each teacher to have 25 more students, not 25 more minutes.

They want them to have an extra period with more students, and as we've been saying throughout this piece, teachers need more time with the students they presently teach; they don't need more students to teach.

In regard to the number 22, Tories have been told always to refer to capping class sizes and never, ever to use the word "average" when talking about smaller classes. Of course, we all know that the class size of 22 refers to a board-wide average which includes all staff, not just the classroom teachers. In most schools, classes are the same size or larger than last year, not smaller. The only way to reduce class size is to establish a maximum in each class, but the government hasn't done that and doesn't want to do that.

After the presentation I made in the House yesterday, I received some e-mails. I've been receiving a lot of them. I just want to refer to a couple of these e-mails to demonstrate probably better than I could myself the problem with Tory mathematics. This one is addressed to me from Michael Wingrove of Hamilton. He's a secondary school teacher. He says:

"I wish to thank you for your efforts to inform the House of the impossible conditions of meeting the 1,250 minutes of instructional time under the Tories' definition. Your information has been basically correct as it applies to a semestered school, and I agree that the government's plan, as you stated, was to eliminate teaching positions, not simply to increase `time in the classroom.'"

However, he makes a point that I wasn't fully aware of. He says, "In larger high schools, there is a five-period day," rather than the four-period day that I referred to in a semestered system. This is "to allow the kids to fit into the limited number of classrooms and into the inadequately sized cafeteria." There are three different lunchtimes, which range from 10 in the morning to 12:30. As an aside, I would say 10 in the morning is a little early for lunch, but that's the scheduling in a semestered system.

As I was saying yesterday, in other semestered systems which have four classes a day, most of the teachers up to now have been teaching three out of the four, but in many cases now they will have to teach four out of four, which doesn't give them any time to do preparation during the day. Mr Wingrove goes on to say, "The four and three scenarios do not play so well" in a setting where there are five periods, "for it means that for many teachers on four they must instruct three periods in a row," not a neat two in the morning and then a break and another two in the afternoon.

"In my case," Mr Wingrove says, "for the next semester that means that I teach one class at the start of the day and am forced to have lunch before 10 in the morning and then deal with three other classes" in a row "in three different classrooms in three different subject areas. The three-minute travelling time between classes would hardly allow a washroom trip, somewhat reminiscent of sweat shops around the world."

Another teacher he is acquainted with in a different school is now forced to teach two periods in two different schools with his "lunch hour" in between used to drive to the other school.

"It would seem that with the government insistence on 1,250 minutes the only acceptable humanitarian solution would be to revert back to a non-semestered school timetable."

This is what I suggested when the former minister first suggested this number of minutes per week, that it would mean the end of the semestered system at the secondary level. School boards would have to go back to the eight-period day. But Mr Wingrove raises a very important point about why that is not possible in many cases.

He says: "There wouldn't be enough room to house all the students" in many schools "in an eight-period day," because the student population is transient. "The semestered school allows an easier transition from school to school following family breakups or relocation due to downsizing. The non-semestered school usually results in the loss of a full year of credits if these students enter midyear." What he's saying is that if you have a semestered system, a student can start in the middle of the year and get half of his credits,

whereas in a non-semestered system in many cases that student would lose the full year.

Something else Mr Wingrove says speaks to the concern I raised about the morale in the school system. He says:

"I am truly glad that the government saw fit to cancel payments to the teachers' pension fund to allow teachers to retire earlier, and even here the agenda was clouded," because it means they want to retire older teachers at maximum pay to hire rookies at less pay, "for a significant savings." But in any case, in two years "I escape this continued harassment and embarrassment. It is, as you say, money, money, money, and damn those that stand in the way. At least the riot squad was not turned on our striking ranks as happened to Ontario's civil servants" under this government.

I think those comments attest to the poor morale that certainly Mr Wingrove in Hamilton demonstrates.

I have another letter that is from one of Mr Johnson's, the Minister of Education's, constituents. He says:

"As one of your constituents and a secondary school teacher, I wish to protest in the strongest possible terms the recent TV ad that the government has been running with regard to teacher working hours. The ad contains a vicious anti-teacher message, laden with half-truths (now I know what became of Joe McCarthy). To compare `teaching time' between provinces is a matter of

interpretation. What is counted in other provinces is not counted here in Ontario."

That's quite true. The definition of "instructional time" as set out in this bill is quite different from the

definitions used for "instructional time" in most of the other provinces. They are all different. So we're in many cases comparing apples and oranges when we try to argue that one province has more instructional minutes per week than another province. In many cases, other provinces do count mentoring, teachers being on call, hall duty, cafeteria duty and so on. Some provinces do, some provinces don't. The minister of course doesn't mention that when he makes statements and it certainly isn't mentioned in the advertisement that this Mr Roberts of Toronto is referring to.

"In the ad it mentions the extra time involved as 25 minutes per day. This is poor math. Given the usual 70-minute period" in the semestered system, as I was saying, "the true figure is 35 minutes" extra per day. "On top of this there is the time required to prepare, mark and mentor one extra class - perhaps one to one and a half hours. I am not convinced that you or anyone in your ministry has any concept of what is involved in teaching.

"The ad blatantly infers that teachers are not willing to put in more class time. This is a downright lie. Most teachers are quite willing to be in class the extra time if the seventh period," which boards have been asked to implement, "is dropped and our preparation time is restored. Your ministry has boasted about increasing the time teachers are in class without mentioning that it involves taking on an extra 25 to 30 students. The net result is that we have less time for each individual. Give us six classes and a return to preparation time and we will be better able to serve the students.

"By now the public has realized that there was fine print attached to" the government's "promise of 22 students per class. Perhaps you would be willing to explain to the parents of my students why I'm teaching 20 to 25 more students this year and thus have less time for their child?"

The government talks "of putting money into the classroom but is spending millions of dollars on publicity and `photo ops.'... Boards...spend $73 million on severance packages and `golden handshakes' (none of which went to teachers). At the same time teachers and schools spend hours trying to beg and borrow from each other to have enough texts" in each class. "Instead of a `photo op,' spend a day in a school to see what your government has created....

"Your reforms to education are a mirage financed on the backs of those you profess to care about: the students."

I think that very eloquently expresses the view that many teachers across Ontario have about this government.

The bill sets minimum standards for the number of minutes teachers are to spend teaching. When I say it's about getting rid of teachers, I have the evidence. I have a survey now of the public boards. It doesn't include the Catholic boards; it's just the public boards at the secondary level.

There are 32 boards. Of the 32 boards, only in one has the number of teachers remained the same this year and only in one has the number of students remained the same. That's not surprising. In 20 of the 32 boards there are more students this year than there were last year. Eleven boards lost students; they have fewer students this year than last year. But in 20 they have an increase in the number of students. Logically that would mean if you have more students in a board you will need more teachers, all other things being equal.

But when we look at the numbers of teachers - as I said, one stayed the same - only five of the boards, the 32 public district school boards in Ontario, this year have more teachers. Twenty-six of the 32 public boards have fewer teachers this year. It doesn't take a lot of math expertise to figure this out. There are more students and there are fewer teachers, so that means each individual teacher has less time with each individual student.

In 1998-99 in Ontario there are 1,563 fewer teachers at the secondary level and yet in 1998-99 there are 5,631 more students at the secondary level in the public boards. So we have 5,600 more students in Ontario's public schools at the secondary level and we have over 1,500 fewer teachers. Can anyone have any doubt that Bill 160 and the funding formula and the demand for more instructional minutes per week per teacher is not anything about improving the quality of education for these 5,600 more students in Ontario? It's about having fewer teachers. It has achieved its aim. It has worked. We haven't dealt with the Catholic boards; this is just a survey of the public boards.

The whole purpose of this seven out of eight - or in some cases it's been suggested perhaps six and a half out of eight, depending on how the boards organize the schools so you can teach half a class. One teacher might teach the first half of the year or the first half of the semester and then another teacher would take over and teach the second half. I don't think that's very good educationally. It doesn't make much sense for the students to have one teacher for half of the course and another teacher for the other half, but that's been suggested in some cases. The total number of minutes does work out that way.

But it doesn't work out for the quality of education for students. This is about ensuring the government's agenda to have fewer teachers in the system is achieved, and it's worked.

It may not be quite as severe on the Catholic side. I don't have a survey of those boards because some of them received more funding. But even on the Catholic side you will find that the increase in the number of students does not have a commensurate increase in the number of teachers. There are fewer teachers teaching more students there as well. I don't have the final numbers yet.

Just ask any student who has been in a class of 33 or 35 whether they have the same opportunity as they do in a class of 20 to 25 and they will tell you they don't. Very good students in most cases will probably do fine. But those students who are having more difficulty and perhaps will need remedial help from the teacher will not generally do fine in a class that is large and they will drop by the wayside.

This is a government that says it wants to improve the quality of education for students, but the funding formula belies that. It isn't possible. Boards of trustees are in a no-win situation here. The government has cut the funds available for teaching in the classroom, but it goes around saying, "We've increased it."

The government has said that boards will no longer be able to raise any funds locally. The government will set the funds, determine the funds that are available to boards for instruction. The government at the same time says it wants boards to meet an average class size - not a maximum but an average class size. In many cases, in order to do that the boards need more teachers but the funding formula requires them to have fewer teachers.

That's not surprising. In any service, whether it be education, health care or any other service, most of the budget goes to staff. Most of it goes to salaries. In teaching it's about 70% of the budget. If the government is going to take a lot of money out, between $750 million and $1.1 billion a year out of education, the only way it can be done is by having fewer teachers.

When it appeared to the government that boards might not do that, they might not cut enough teachers, then the Conservative government decided, "We've got to ensure they do." The way they did it was by coming up with this increase in the number of instructional minutes and requiring boards to comply. As I said in one of the examples I read, in some cases teachers said: "We're prepared to teach longer to comply with the number of minutes required. The way to do it is to lengthen the periods and lengthen the school day.

We'll spend more time with our students, and at the end of each week we'll have taught more minutes with the students." But the government came along and said to the boards: "No, you can't do that. We don't want you to do that." Mr Johnson, the Minister of Education and Training, sent a letter out to the boards saying: "Oh, no, we don't want you to do that. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about having teachers teach more periods - not more minutes per period, more periods. That means of course that we want each teacher teaching another 25 or so students each day."

In industry it's what's called speed-up, where you require employees to do more in the same amount of time in the week. Instead of saying, "You can still teach three out of four, but they'll be 75-minute periods each and so that'll make up the time," the government said: "No, no, that's not what we want. We want you to teach four out of four and keep the periods at the same length." In some cases, they actually reduced the period length to come up with the right number. That hasn't happened in very many cases but it has happened in a few. So it's been all about reducing the number of teachers.

Some of these boards that I've referred to in the survey - I'll give you an example here. I'll use the board in my own area, the Algoma district board. They have gone up 82 students this year, total. No, sorry, I'll use the Rainbow District School Board, which is the Sudbury-Espanola area. They've gone up 82 students but they've gone down in the number of teachers, and that has happened right across the board. I don't understand -

Interjection.

Mr Wildman: Well, let's see here. It's a little unclear on this. I'll use the Near North District School Board in this example here. The Near North has actually gone down a number of students; 218 students fewer and they've gone down 35 teachers. Let's take Waterloo as an example. It's gone up 450 students and it's gone down 57 teachers. That's the kind of thing that's happening. That's what's been happening across Ontario because of this funding formula.

The reason for this bill is that some of the boards and the teachers' federations - not very many, but a few of them - negotiated agreements which allowed for the number of minutes to be met without cutting teachers. The government, to be fair, has said, "If they've made agreements, we will allow those