Alberta Hansard — 9 March 1995, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 23, Session 3)

19950309

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 475 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Thursday, March 9, 1995 1:30 p.m. Date: 95/03/09 [The Speaker in the Chair] head: Prayers THE SPEAKER: Let us pray. Our divine Father, as we conclude for this week our work in this Assembly, we renew our thanks and ask that we may continue our work under Y our guidance. Amen. head: Presenting Petitions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti. MR. JACQUES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am presenting a petition on behalf of 75 citizens of the Peace country area who are requesting the government to eliminate taxpayer funding of elective abortions. head: Reading and Receiving Petitions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. DR. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request that the petition I presented yesterday asking for 400 hours of kindergarten education now be read and received. Thank you.

CLERK: We the undersigned Residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours of Early Child hood Services instruction per year.

We also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund 400 hours or more of Early Childhood Services, as determined by the local community, so that there are no ECS user fees for 400 hour programs and so that all Alberta children have an equal opportunity or "level playing field" to succeed and compete in life by having equal access to basic educational resources. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Bonnyville. MR. V ASSEUR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask that the petition I presented on March 2 on the 400 hours for ECS be now read and received. CLERK: We the undersigned Residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours of Early Childhood Services instruction per year.

We also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund 400 hours or more of Early Childhood Services, as determined by the local community, so that there are no ECS user fees for 400 hour programs and so that all Alberta children have an equal opportunity or "level playing field" to succeed and compete in life by having equal access to basic educational resources. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition House Leader. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would request that the petition I tabled in the House yesterday regarding 400 hours of ECS be now read and received. CLERK: We the undersigned Residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours of Early Childhood Services instruction per year.

We also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund 400 hours or more of Early Childhood Services, as determined by the local community, so that there are no ECS user fees for 400 hour programs and so that all Alberta children have an equal opportunity or "level playing field" to succeed and compete in life by having equal access to basic educational resources. MR. GERMAIN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the petition which I filed on March 7 signed by residents of Fort McMurray might today be read.

CLERK: We the undersigned Residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours of Early Childhood Services instruction per year.

We also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund 400 hours or more of Early Childhood Services, as determined by the local community, so that there are no ECS user fees for 400 hour programs and so that all Alberta children have an equal opportunity or "level playing field" to succeed and compete in life by having equal access to basic educational resources. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. MR. DICKSON: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

I'm requesting that the petition I introduced yesterday signed by 309 Calgarians con- cerned about the future of early childhood services might now be read and received, please. CLERK: We the undersigned Residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours of Early Childhood Services instruction per year.

We also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund 400 hours or more of Early Childhood Services, as determined by the local community, so that there are no ECS user fees for 400 hour programs and so that all Alberta children have an equal opportunity or "level playing field" to succeed and compete in life by having equal access to basic educational resources. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. MR. LANGEVIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With your permission I'd like to request that the two petitions I tabled, one on February 28 and one on March 2, be now read and received.

476 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 CLERK: We, the undersigned residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta not to make sexual orientation a part of the Individual's Rights Protection Act. We, the undersigned residents of Alberta petition the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta not to make sexual orientation a part of the Individual's Rights Protection Act. head: Tabling Returns and Reports THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. MR. DICKSON: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. There are three documents I wish to table this afternoon.

The first one is an excerpt from a Calgary Police Commission study. This is entitled Private Liquor Outlets Offences: First Quarter Report. The second item is the City of Calgary Prostitution Policy, Procedure, Protocol and Research Committee, Friday, November 25, 1994. Thirdly, the report of subco mmittees on prostitution to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities big cities mayor's caucus, November 26, 1993. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. Albert. MR. BRACKO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm making two tablings.

The first is four copies of a report by the city of Edmonton Police Service stating that crime would increase as a result of privatization. My second one is from the Town of Morinville saying that they were not consulted as promised by this government on the agreement on internal trade, which disputes the information given by this government earlier. THE SPEAKER: Hon. members, pursuant to Standing Order 109 I am pleased to table with the Assembly the seventh annual report of the Legislative Assembly Office, including Alberta Hansard, for the calendar year ended December 31, 1994.

A copy of the report is being distributed to all members. head: Introduction of Guests THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. Albert. MR. BRACKO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm honoured to introduce to you and Members of the Legislative Assembly 30 home school students from St. Albert. They are here with their dedicated parents. The parents are Shelagh Schiller, Diane Amyotte, Michelle Murray, Marilyn Knynsburg, Terry McFarland, Georgina Kobsar, Geralyn Onslow, Michelle Fitzsimmons, Allen and Cathy Sarafinchan. They're in the members' gallery. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure today to introduce a group of very special students from my constitu- ency. They are the grade 10 honours social studies class from Archbishop MacDonald high school, and they're here visiting the Legislature today as part of their program of instruction. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Bill Kobluk. I would ask them all to please stand and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon- St. Albert. MRS. SOETAERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly some home schoolers and their parents. Here in the Assembly today are Irene Nichol from Calahoo, Rick Hughes from the Morinville area, Susan Weymer from the Morinville area, and Judy Schaffers from the Villeneuve area. If members don't know where those places are, I'll give them a tour someday. I'd ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assem- bly. head: Oral Question Period 1:40 THE SPEAKER: The hon. member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Regional Health Authorities MS CARLSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier and his caucus have a long history of criticizing administrators in the health and education sectors, but when it comes to the Health minister's own backyard, he chooses to ignore the facts. Can the Health minister please explain how racking up in only six short months administrative expenses of nearly $300,000, including almost $28,000 going into the pocket of the volunteer chairman of the board, has saved money or provided better health care for the Palliser health region? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make about three or four very important points on this question.

First of all, I want to say very clearly that my staff have reviewed the financial statement of the Palliser board, and they have verified that the expenses claimed were legitimate. I want to make that very clear. I think it's important to note that the new management structure that we have in place today gives that information to the public. The Palliser board tabled this information in an open, public meeting in their region. In the past you would not have had the information on board expenses. So I think that's very positive.

Secondly, I think that the hon. member and all hon. members across the way should take note of this, because many of them do not realize the distances that are involved. The Palliser regional authority covers an area of 34,121.3 square kilometres. For example, in contrast, Calgary, which is a large authority, covers 732.7 square kilometres. Mr. Speaker, everyone in Calgary or Edmonton can get to board meetings in a very short time by public transportation or by private transportation. They can be held in a hotel or a community hall in the city with very little travel associated.

The third thing is that I believe that the hon. member and, I assume, her caucus are preoccupied with entirely the wrong thing. The important point here is: is the Palliser regional health authority providing a business plan for quality health services to be delivered in that very vast authority? Mr. Speaker, that's what I am interested in. MS CARLSON: Mr. Speaker, can the minister, then, justify the fact that the Cereal hospital still has an administrator, nursing staff, cook, and cleanin g staff and all of this at a hospital that today has only one – one – acute care patient? DR. L.

TA YLOR: Cereal isn't in that region. THE SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. minister has the floor, not the hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat.

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 477 MRS. McCLELLAN: Two points on this one for clarification, Mr. Speaker. One, Cereal is not in the Palliser regional health authority. I would assume that the hon. member assumed it was, because her first question was directed at the Palliser regional health authority. Secondly, I think it should be acknowledged in this House that Cereal is in my constituency, which I suspect is why it has been brought up. For the member's information and clarification, to my knowledge region 5 has not brought forward their blueprint for hospital closures or transition or reallocation of use.

I don't have any knowledge that that has been made public. They have had consultations, and I am quite sure that when that region brings forward their business plan, that hospital in Cereal, in my hometown, will be dealt with. MS CARLSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, is one acute care patient per hospital the level of care that Albertans can expect if they live in the minister's riding? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, I take great offence at that comment. I don't think that the quality of care in this province should differ in anyone's riding. If that hospital is delivering care to a person, I am sure it is quality.

Again, I have to reiterate. The region, region 5, will bring forward their blueprint for how their facilities will be utilized. They will assume the operation on April 1, as will others. I invite the hon. member to stand and critique it when she has the right region identified. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Child Prostitution MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Child prostitution is a booming industry in Alberta, and it's a dangerous one. In Calgary alone from 1987 to 1992 10 young Calgary prostitutes were murdered. Seven of the 10 were under 18 years.

Today there are about 800 children forced to sell their bodies on streets in the cities of Edmonton and Calgary. Now, we've seen leadership in this province. We've seen leadership from Mayor Duerr and Alderman Longstaff at the municipal level in promoting community initiatives. We see leadership at the federal level from Justice Minister Rock, who's introducing amendments to the Criminal Code. But there is a deafening silence from this government on this important issue. To the acting deputy Premier: will that minister tell Albertans the top three initiatives in this area to protect our children?

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. EV ANS: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. I'll answer on behalf of the government. The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo has brought up a very serious matter. This is a very serious matter, hon. member, that I am dealing with the federal govern- ment on, that was brought up on our agenda in January in Victoria as to how we can deal with this both at the federal level through the Criminal Code and at the municipal level to assist communities in having proactive responses to this very, very serious problem.

It is a serious problem because we are seeing young children becoming involved in a life of prostitution. It is with quite a bit of disgust, quite frankly, that I would admit to this House that the youngest child found involved in prostitution in Edmonton was in the nine to 10 year range and in Calgary in the 10 to 1 1 year range. I think that all right-thinking Albertans, all right-thinking Canadians are repulsed, disgusted, and moved to action as a result of those kinds of numbers and those tender ages.

What the federal government is planning to do – and Allan Rock, the federal Justice minister, is well aware of my enthusias- tic support for this – is make amendments to the Criminal Code so that customers of prostitutes, in particular young prostitutes, will face more severe pena lties. They're going to spend more time behind bars. We are also promoting – and this will be another amendment – that those who are pimping these young people will also spend more time behind bars. Mr.

Speaker, there's a third initiative that's extremely important and that I've talked to Mayor Al Duerr and Alderman Bev Longstaff about f ace to face, and that is a bout moving in the direction of a charge under the Criminal Code that recognizes, particularly with these younger people, that we are talking about child abuse. We are not talking about a criminal activity with respect to these victims – and I think that in many cases they are victims – we're talking about child abuse. I promoted that principle when I met with my colleagues the Justice ministers in Victoria.

I had a very positive response to that from Allan Rock and from other Justice ministers, and of course I had a very positive response from Mayor Al Duerr and members of the prostitution task force in the city of Calgary. I know that those same comments from the mayor have been passed on to the federal Justice minister. I'm enthusiastic that we are going to make these changes quickly, that this is a focal point, and that we'll get after this terrible situation as expeditiously as possible. 1:50 MR. DICKSON: Mr. Speaker, the question was what the province could do.

My supplementary question is: since prostitutes are often the victims of sexual abuse themselv es, what instructions has the acting deputy Premier given his colleagues, the other members of his cabinet, to stop this horrible, vicious cycle? MR. EV ANS: As the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker, obviously I have to direct our police forces to concentrate on those most serious and violent actions that occur in our society. I take issue with the hon. member saying that I didn't identify anything that the province is doing.

We are working with our police forces at the municipal level and at the provincial level, we're working with our municipal elected representatives, and I continue to work with our federal representatives as well so that we get this problem eliminated from our cities. MR. DICKSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, let's turn to prevention. I'd ask the hon. minister: will his government immediately earmark resources for street-front initiatives and transition houses so that these young Alberta children can be offered a safer alternative than trick pads? MR. EV ANS: I appreciate the recommendations from the hon. member across.

I know that he has taken a particular interest in this issue. We are looking, hon. member, at every means possible to remove these young people from this kind of lifestyle. I think you've heard me say before that when we talk about young offenders – and I'm not saying that these people are young offenders, because I agree with you that many of them are victims – we concentrate our efforts so that we can put them back onto the straight and narrow so they can be productive members of our society.

I and my staff are working with municipal police forces, with our colleagues in other provincial jurisdictions, and with the

478 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 federal government to have a comprehensive program to get these young people off the streets, get them out of these trick pads, and to get after those people who are perpetrating these kinds of crimes on young people in our society. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Jail Privatization MR. ZARIWNY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Justice claimed today that his secret report on private jailers, which he still has not released to us, will save 10 to 15 percent without endangering public safety.

By far the majority of studies done on this issue show that cost reductions are minimal, if they exist at all. Now the minister is going to use jail privatization as a club to force prison guards to do his work and to find those elusive cost savings. My questions are to the Minister of Justice. Since the prison guards as well as Albertans want to see the department's secret report on jail privatization, will he release it now? THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. EV ANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I met with members of the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees this morning along with my colleague the Minister of Labour to advise them that notwithstanding that we have a report that indicates we can ensure public safety and save some money by a privatized model of corrections in this province, we have heard in the meantime from our own staff that they have ways and means and suggestions for us to have cost savings, substantial cost savings.

What we have agreed to do today is to give them an opportunity, to involve them in the decision-making process, to allow them to be creative, allow them to have meaningful input into what corrections will be in this province for the balance of this decade and into the 21st century. We want them to be involved. Now, they asked me the question: why don't you release that report that you have?

I explained to them – and I believe, hon. member, that they were agreeable after I explained it to them – that there are some very confidential matters related to the safety of society generally, to the safety of our guards, and to the safety of those who are incarcerated incorporated into those reports. I do not think it would be responsible to carte blanche put that report out.

However, given that the terms of reference for this initiative, which will take a six-month period of time, are, "How can we ensure public safety and how can we have a more efficient, more effective, and a less costly corrections system?" we will give our people who are on that efficiency team informa- tion from that report which relates specifically to financial savings. MR. ZARIWNY: That is very well, Mr. Minister, but why is the minister only now – only now – consulting with the guards after wasting taxpayers' money and months on the report? Why not earlier? Why didn't you consult with them months ago? MR.

EV ANS: Mr. Speaker, I think every member on the front bench has the same kind of responsibility that I have as the Minister of Justice and Attorney General, and that is to utilize the budget that we are given by the people of the province of Alberta in our departments in the most effective and efficient way possible. An internal study utilizing the expertise of our staff was commis- sioned by my predecessor to find ways of reducing the cost of corrections in the province of Alberta and to determine whether it could be done in a safe and efficient manner.

I got those results shortly after I was appointed to the position of Justice minister in the late fall of last year. I've been reviewing that. At the same time I've been reviewing the input from corrections sta ff. I've been reviewing input from the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees on behalf of corrections staff. We are doing some- thing that is extremely novel. We are involving our staff in a very important aspect of the budgetary process. I'm proud of that, I know that my colleagues are proud of that, and I think the members of the correction system in the province of Alberta are proud of that as well. MR.

ZARIWNY: As the minister knows, Mr. Speaker, public safety is an important issue in this matter. Will the minister commit to holding public consultations so that Albertans' views can be heard on this matter? MR. EV ANS: Mr. Speaker, what I have committed to today with our corrections staff is that I will give them an opportunity to be actively involved in forming a corrections policy for this province for the rest of this decade and into the 21st century. This is a process which will be a six-month process. It begins in the first part of April with the terms of reference that they will have input into.

Their issues will be: do we ensure public safety with a more efficient, a more effective, and a less costly process? They will be going around the province and dealing with all aspects of corrections in this province on a confidential basis so that our employees, who will give information to this team, will not feel at risk. We will take that information, the recommendations, when they come back to me in October, and we will decide what happens from there. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly- Belmont. Twinning Edmonton and Calgary MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There seems to be quite a bit of interest being generated presently regarding the twinning of Alberta's two largest cities, Edmonton and Calgary. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Something that we haven't seen for some time is that there seems to be joint support for the idea from the respective mayors, and indeed the idea is kind of exciting and may have some merit. To the hon. minister without portfolio responsible for economic development: is this a viable idea? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, the business plan put forth by the Department of Economic Development and Tourism outlines part of what the Economic Development Authority is doing, in fact welcomes suggestions from any members of that authority. The business plan outlines three core businesses: trade, investment, and infrastructure. We've, in fact, put specific targets on those goals. The one part about Alberta, which has an obligation to in fact export or die in order to provide economic growth, is to present a critical mass in the marketplace.

A suggestion that perhaps a Calgary and Edmonton twinning can take place or that a municipal region or rural area can combine with other areas to develop that critical mass and be able to put that forth into the global marketplace is very welcome indeed. In

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 479 fact, this very suggestion came from a futures compendium in 1989. I think that the real decision, though, lies with the mayors and what works for them. 2:00 THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton- Beverly-Belmont on his first supplemental. MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the cities work co-operatively on joint economic ventures, or would they have separately defined economic roles? MR. SMITH: The importance, Mr.

Speaker, of establishing a presence in the international marketplace from two perspectives, one, to promote trade and, secondly, to attract investment, indicates that marketing techniques of being able to present a joint presence would be effective and perhaps also to have a portfolio that would demonstrate what strengths each individual area brings to the table. In the great spirit of the private sector, we'll let the customer make the choice. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Final supplemental, Edmonton- Beverly-Belmont. MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does a venture such as this have the potential to plug not only these two cities but Alberta even more into the global marketplace? MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, in fact the ability for us to market our products is a commitment that everybody has to take as individual Albertans. I believe this is something that's come up from an individual basis. It reflects the close co-operation this department has with municipalities, with cities, with elected officials, with private businessmen, and with people who offer this type of public consultation.

So in fact anything that makes more money for Albertans, puts more money in Albertans' pockets, is in fact an effective initiative. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before asking St. Albert to ask his question, the Chair would observe that these questions were bordering on the hypothetical. They were allowed b ecause they were on the edge, but just a word of caution. The hon. Member for St. Albert. Liquor Store Break-ins MR. BRACKO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you for your wisdom.

The Calgary police department has released statistics which show that half of the private liquor stores in that city have had break-ins, in fact one of them up to six times. This was predicted by social services agencies as well as the Edmonton and Calgary city police when the botched privatization was implemented. To the minister responsible, whose leader said that he listened and cared: why did you not listen and take the warnings of the experts on the social consequences of liquor privatization? DR. WEST: We did, Mr. Speaker. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: St. Albert. MR. BRACKO: Thank you. I'll try again, Mr. Speaker.

Why did you not demand that appropriate levels of security for liquor stores be enforced when you madly privatized the industry? DR. WEST: Mr. Speaker, the privatization model is evolving, and certainly now with 544 stores versus the 204 that there were before, you would expect that there would be certain levels of challenges from the criminal element in those stores. A lot of them are mischief, break-ins not to steal money, but they do steal the product itself. We've had levels of that over the years.

As the system evolves, the stores themselves are putting up better retention at nighttime for a safety factor with bars, better locks, and better doors. As I say, to inflict in the beginning of this model absolute stringent regulations would have brought it back to the bureaucratic and overregulated situation it was before. We have no greater or lesser criminal element around this product than any other jurisdiction that I know of. MR. BRACKO: There was only one break-in in the previous year. What additional steps will this minister take to ensure that the amount of crime will be cut down? DR.

WEST: The ALCB will continue to work with the police forces along with our inspectors and with the municipalities to do what we can to ensure the safety of our citizens in relation to this product. There is a level that is a continual challenge to us not only in liquor stores but in confectionary stores and those operations that are open at night. There are break-ins in all types of business, not just liquor stores. There seems to be an attraction by a certain element of youth. Many of these stores are just driven into with trucks or broken into, a few bottles taken.

Y es, if you want to add that up, you know, to an increasing criminal element, you can, but it's just another example of how we're going to have to deal very sti ffly in the courts and within our society on the streets in order to stop this level of complete disrespect for society itself. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-East. Private Schools MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Under the new funding framework for school boards the funding formula is comprised of three parts: instructional, capital, and support.

While independ- ent schools are not eligible for capital or support funding, they do not receive full funding for instruction. To the hon. Minister of Education: why do independent schools only receive $1,700 per student rather than the $3,600 per student allotted to the public and separate school boards? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, the primary responsibility of a provincial government is to provide for a public education system which is accessible to all students. That is what we f und fully across the province.

Our public education system is one that is accessible to all students, follows provincial programs and standards, a system which does not charge tuition fees. It is one which is nonsectarian. I could go on with the list. The private schools, I would acknowledge in many cases, as they see it, do a good job of education, and we do provide some level of funding support to them, but our priority is the public education system. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Calgary-East. MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister knows that if these students were enrolled in either the public or separate schools, taxpayers would be paying all three components. Why

480 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 won't the Minister of Education consider full instructional funding for independent schools? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, when we refer to full instructional funding, we are in essence referring to the vast majority of funding for the school system. I would like to say that in the province of Alberta we do provide funding for private schools. It equates to about 35 percent of the provincial GRF share of funding for private schools. This ranks quite favourably in the nation. In several cases provinces do not provide any level of support. So there is a level of support, but our priority is on the public education system. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Without

preamble, final supplemen- tal, Calgary-East. MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could tell the House how many students are presently in private schools and not receiving full instructional funding. MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, my estimate is that there are 14,000 students currently enrolled in accredited private schools across the province. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche- St. Paul. 2:10 Public Service Layoffs MR. LANGEVIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the government is working through its three-year plan, many public employees are receiving their pink slips.

Some will receive nice severance pay, a long retraining, and job placement, while others will be left with no help or assistance. My question today is to the Minister of Transportation and Utilities. Why is it that in the Lac La Biche area out of 27 employees with Transportation, only three will qualify for severance pay and job retraining? DR. WEST: Mr. Speaker, one of the long-standing environments in government has been the differences in positions as designated throughout the agreement.

Some people were on permanent employment and of course are slotted in at certain codes, and others were hired as temporary or part-time employees. Unfortu- nately, some of the part-time or temporary employees stayed for long periods of time in the government workforce, perhaps five, seven years, eight years. There's quite an average there. When it came to fulfilling the severance packages in our agreements, if you were on temporary staff or wages, then you didn't get the same conditions as were given to those on permanent employment.

Therefore some of those that have actually worked five, six, seven years do not get severance packages. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: First supplemental, Lac La Biche-St. Paul. MR. LANGEVIN: Y es. Again to the same minister: why would one employee with up to 16 years of full-time work still be under code 4 classification, which is temporary? DR. WEST: As I just explained, Mr. Speaker, it's one of the, I guess, differences between the private and government sectors in that people can sustain a part-time or a temporary position for 16 years. I questioned it when I became minister.

We always talk about authorized full-time equivalents, and when we looked into the actual people working, sometimes they didn't even jibe with the numbers that were there in the public service. All I can say is that as we move forward in the future, I think we will have to address this in a serious manner so that we don't bring people into a situation where literally they can sit outside the agreement for 15 to 20 years of their lives and then be handed a pink slip.

I don't know whether the Minister of Labour would like to make any comments on that, but I'm sure it's something that his department has looked at and anguished over. It's part of the inherent way government has been set up over the last 30, 40 years. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Final supplemental, Lac La Biche-St. Paul. MR. LANGEVIN: Y es. My last question is to the Minister of Labour. Is it acceptable under Alberta labour standards laws that employees be required to work full-time and still be classified as temporary? MR. DA Y: Mr.

Speaker, as the minister of transportation has indicated, there are so many different classifications that it has caused a fair bit of angst even as we've tried to decide and treat people with care and with dignity in terms of where severance can be available.

Let me just say to the member that because there is the possibility of a question on an individual basis – and certainly the minister of transportation has asked for clarification on this, as have other ministers – if the member would care to get the designations and classifications of those particular people to either the minister of transportation or myself, we would take a careful look at that to see what could apply there. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Bow. Jail Privatization (continued) MRS. LAING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Justice.

Will the minister please tell this Assembly if it is true that the privatization of correctional services report showed that there would be too many problems and very little cost savings and that that is the reason he rejected privatization? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. MR. EV ANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. In fact the report stated that we could ensure public safety and still have a reason- able cost saving, in the magnitude of 10 to 15 percent.

Now, when you consider that our budget for corrections in the province is about $1 10 million, that's a fairly considerable amount of money. As I indicated in my earlier response, we also had some other factors that came into the picture, and we had a great deal of enthusiasm indicated by our corrections staff in working with us to try to realize some savings on the current model, and we are giving them the opportunity to do that. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: First supplemental, Calgary-Bow. MRS. LAING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister describe the process governing this examination of the employee

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 481 input and assure Albertans that it'll be very productive and not merely an opportunity to air past grievances? MR. EV ANS: Well, the efficiency team plan that we initiated today, Mr. Speaker, will involve representatives from both management and front-end workers in our corrections division. The team will probably be made up of approximately eight members. What we want them to do is look at adult and youth corrections. We want them to look at probation and administra- tive costs. We want them to actively go out and seek input from corrections staff around the province.

As I mentioned again earlier, we are concerned about the confidentiality of that information, and we want to be sure that those members of our staff who will come forw ard with good ideas w ill do so in the sense of confidence that that information won't be used against them in any way, shape, or form. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Final supplemental, Calgary-Bow. MRS. LAING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister of Justice tell this Assembly if he will release the efficiency review team report on the conclusion so that Albertans can judge for themselves the merits of the recommendations before implementa- tion? MR.

EV ANS: Well, just as I mentioned with respect to the internal report that I have which says that we can realize savings and we can ensure public safety, I want to be darn sure that the issue of the safety of society generally and of our corrections officers and of our serving prisoners is ensured. For that reason, I'm not releasing the full report that was done internally. I think it may happen, hon. member, that we get some recommendations that are dealing with confidential matters with respect to safety.

So I can't indicate at this point in time that I will release the entire report, but of course we will want Albertans to be aware of what is in that report and any of the suggestions that come from it, and I hope it will indicate to us when it does come to us that we can realize some quite substantial savings at the same time. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for West Y ellowhead. Tourism Promotion MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Over a year ago the Tourism Industry Association of Alberta came up with a proposal to create an Alberta tourism corporation which would take over promotion of tourism.

For some reason cabinet has been reluctant to approve this proposal. The stakeholders in the tourism industry don't know what's going on, and they can't make any plans for next year, and they don't know who's making the decisions. So I'd like to ask the minister without portfolio who is responsible for this particular department: why is it taking cabinet so long? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. minister responsible for Economic Development and Tourism. MR. SMITH: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In fact, it's not taking cabinet so long.

In fact, the industry themselves are delivering a proposal that is private-sector driven. I've asked them to ensure that it reflects the intent, the wishes, and the desires of the major operators, the operators throughout Alberta, whether they're in Manyberries or Meander River: let's find out what it is specifically in terms of product that they want to have within this corporation, what it is they want to deliver back to the industry. In fact, I will be meeting with officials from TIAALTA and from throughout the tourism industry on Sunday and Monday of this coming week. MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the same minister how he is going to deal with the concerns in rural areas over the proposed boundaries and over the representation on the proposed board. MR. SMITH: I've always found, Mr. Speaker, that decisions made by those who are impacted the most by those decisions in fact are the most effective decisions. So I will look forward to the industry delivering to me that specific proposal and how it reflects the unique needs of those in the wide and diverse area of Alberta.

I think it's very critical that representation by the players in the industry are on the board and in fact are being accountable to this Legislature and to their own industry for the decisions they make and how it will affect all individuals in the tourism industry. 2:20 MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Mr. Speaker, given the fact that it appears that the PC caucus is divided on this particular proposal, when, if ever, is there going to be a decision made? MR. SMITH: Well, I've certainly enjoyed the questions from the hon. member, and they were moving along well until they got political. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, it's not the PC caucus; it's the industry. It's the industry that has to deliver the model, and we are here, as the business plan clearly states, to create an environ- ment that allows industry to do the very best it can. MLA Communication with Schools MR. HLADY: Mr. Speaker, my question today is in regards to communication or rather the attempt to block communication between the key communicators of all the public schools in my constituency and myself.

I received a copy of a letter from the chairman of the Calgary board of education stating that MLAs should communicate through schools rather than directly with key communicators. My question is to the Minister of Education. Do you uphold this attempt to block my ability to communicate with my constituents? MR. JONSON: No. I certainly would not in any way condone or support that particular viewpoint.

I think it's important that in a school system, MLAs, school board members, key communica- tors, school council members, teachers, all the participants in the education system, communicate and co-operate in the best interests of education. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: First supplemental, Calgary-Moun- tain View. MR. HLADY: No. That's fine. Thank you. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Bonnyville. Oil Spills MR. V ASSEUR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. About two weeks ago there was a serious blowout in an oil operation in northeastern

482 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 Alberta. Failure in a well casing led to subsequent failure in five other wells on the same cluster pad. Last year a similar incident caused failure in 1 1 wells. There are major concerns about environmental contamination of the aquifers and about proper cleanup by the industry after these failures. My question is to the Minister of Environmental Protection.

Since these failures are occurring at older installations and hundreds of well clusters have been placed in production over the last 10 to 12 years, what is the minister doing in conjunction with the industry to guarantee or to prevent similar failures in these other wells as they age? MR. LUND: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important that the hon. member recognize that in fact there's a major role being played by the ERCB, and the question that he asked is certainly within their jurisdiction, not w ithin the jurisdiction of Environ- mental Protection. We are on-site at the current spill.

If in fact there is a danger to the aquifers, then that does involve this department. We're looking at ways that it could be remediated. We are told that Esso is going to perforate the casing in the existing wells in order that they can pump any contaminated fluid out of the groundwa- ter. They're also looking at the possibility, if n ecessary, of drilling down to the aquifer and pumping water from those aquifers as well and delivering it to the plant. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: First supplemental, Bonnyville. MR. V ASSEUR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The industry is already in a cleanup operation on this thing.

This happened two weeks ago. I think the minister's a little bit in the tar sands on this one, because the industry is very much well aware of what is going on. My question is: what is the responsibility of the department as far as the contamination of the water aquifers? MR. LUND: Well, Mr. Speaker, I started off by trying to indicate to the hon. member – but I guess he wasn't listening – that in fact the ERCB are the people that control down hole. While the cleanup is under our jurisdiction, the drilling and the things that happen down hole are under the jurisdiction of the ERCB.

That question is more appropriately put to the Minister of Energy. DR. WEST: As Acting Minister of Energy I'll take this question as a matter of notice for the Minister of Energy. I think that the minister of environment is exactly right. This pertains to the ERCB, and some of the questions should be directed to the Energy minister, and we'll get back to the House with those answers. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. minister. Bonnyville, final supplemental. MR. V ASSEUR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order, then, to ask the acting minister a question? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Y es. MR.

V ASSEUR: Since the department is out there – the ERCB is presently doing an investigation on it – is the government prepared to table that report once it's done? DR. WEST: Once again, Mr. Speaker, I say with a bit of a smile that I do take those questions as a matter of notice, so it will be coming back with the Minister of Energy. Thanks for the question. Consumer Protection MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Albertans are victimized by unfair practices such as pyramid sales and negative billing. These practices are insidious, dangerous, and violate fairness in the marketplace.

Albertans find no advocates in this government to champion their rights as consumers. Where is the consumer advocate in this government, Mr. Speaker? I direct my question to whomever is the minister responsible for consumer and corporate affairs. As there is no minister responsible, I'll direct my questions directly to the Provincial Treasurer. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, I think the Minister of Municipal Affairs is prepared to take responsibility. MR. THURBER: Mr.

Speaker, it's common practice in this House that if you're polite, you wait until the person who has asked the question sits down in their seat again, and I was only trying to be polite to the lady. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We appreciate your gentlemanliness and good behaviour. I'm not so certain the hon. Member for Clover Bar-Fort Saskatchewan got to ask her question, unless the question was: who is? I'll call on the hon. Member for Clover Bar-Fort Saskatchewan to ask her question. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the minister responsible.

Will this government take action to stop this unfair practice of negative billing immediately? MR. THURBER: Mr. Speaker, this issue was around probably a month or a month and a half ago, and I found that the consum- ers themselves were able to handle it very well. The cable company that was involved in the negative billing has since ceased that, and some of the other companies have backed off. The consumers were strong, and I think that that's where it should be. There are parts of Canada where they do have legislation in opposition to negative billing, and it's not that successful there.

If it continues and if it becomes a problem, we will look at the options, but in the meantime I think that consumers have the right to stop these things as they want to. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Member for Clover Bar-Fort Saskatchewan, first supplemental. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Y es, and it's to the Provincial Trea- surer, Mr. Speaker. Why does the draft franchises Bill which you're now circulating contain no provisions to prevent the unethical practice of pyramid schemes? MR. DINNING: Pyramid schemes are illegal under the Criminal Code, Mr. Speaker.

When the hon. member was briefed on the Bill by the chairman of the Securities Commission, it's funny that she didn't raise this concern at that time. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Mr. Hess didn't point out the details of the Bill. That's pathetic, Provincial Treasurer. Mr. Speaker, to the Provincial Treasurer: is this just another example of your government getting out of the business of governing and protecting Albertans' rights as consumers?

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 483 2:30 MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I would remind the hon. member once again – and perhaps I'll just say it a little slower this time so she gets it – that pyramid-selling is illegal under the Criminal Code passed by the Parliament of Canada. It's illegal. It's not legal; it is illegal. I'm sorry that the hon. member was not able to pick up this information in the opportunity that she had to have a briefing. Clearly, the Franchises Act discussion draft is out.

Albertans have an opportunity to comment on it, and there's a balance here clearly as to whether that is the right Bill to deregu- late the franchise business or whether it's appropriate to allow greater flexibility in the franchise business so that more franchise opportunities are available here in this province. I would certainly welcome the hon. member, now that she's more informed and sort of with it, to give us the benefit of her advice. head: Members' Statements THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Olds- Didsbury. Kidney Month MR. BRASSARD: Y es, Mr. Speaker.

A friend of mine, John Overwater, is walking around with someone else's kidneys. If he wasn't, chances are he wouldn't be walking around at all. It started about 20 years ago when he went to his doctor for a routine pilot's licence medical. His doctor found that his kidneys were passing proteins, something called glomerulonephritis, likely caused by an abnormal fever during a routine illness. He was told that he would probably require dialysis treatment within five years, and he did.

He was on dialysis for another four years before receiving a kidney transplant, but due to complications the transplant only lasted eight months, and he was once again back on dialysis. This time it was nine years before he received a donor kidney, and his life has been relatively normal ever since. He had never really given his kidneys much thought. He didn't know, for instance, that even with modern technology, if they were up to the task, it would take a lab with 140 miles of tubing and millions of filter units to duplicate the workings of the human kidneys, which only weigh about five ounces each.

They are considered the body's master chemists, filtering the body's entire blood supply, five to six quarts, 25 times a day. Although a person can function quite well on one, diseases like nephritis attack both kidneys at the same time, and dialysis as a replace- ment is all that stands between life and death. March is Kidney Month, and as I speak, there are at least 2,000 Canadians waiting for a kidney transplant. The Kidney Founda- tion of Canada has made great strides in improving the quality of life for kidney disease patients, but organ transplants are desper- ately needed.

Please take a minute and fill out the organ donor card on your personal health card. I know of 2,000 Canadians who would be more than happy to thank you. Thank you. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton- Centre. Sex Offenders MR. HENRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Roger Bourgeois had committed a crime. He was tried, convicted, and sentenced. After serving his sentence, he was then released and he moved to Edmonton. This man moved into the community where I live and my children attend school and day care.

The commu- nity reaction was, "Why were we not notified when a repeat sex offender moved into our community? Why was he let out? What about my children's safety?" My reaction was like that of most parents. I wanted to know what the school was doing, what action the day care had taken, and what the police were doing about this. I believe these r eactions are normal and justifiable, but I've been troubled and thinking since then. This man was sentenced and served his time. What rights does he have now?

While he has a right to live his life, we have a responsibility to ensure that not only is he not a danger to our children but not a danger to himself. All assessments indicate that he will likely reoffend, resulting in a child being hurt and resulting in him being incarcerated one more time. If he had other behaviour that hurt himself, we would be saying, "He's not able to take care of himself. He will only end up hurting himself." There must be a place where he can be safe from himself. He is unable to control his behavi our, Mr.

Speaker, behaviour that hurts others as well as himself, so we must provide that control for him. Why do we wait for him to hurt someone and then lock him up for a period of time only to let him go and return to the community with nothing to do all day but fantasize and stalk malls? The challenge for the judicial system and for us as legislators is to break the cycle of offending, incarceration, and reoffending and protect us from him and him from himself by placing him in a supervised environment where he has no opportunity to reoffend and where he has something to do all day: an activity, a purpose. Mr.

Speaker, no one in this Legislature feels more strongly than I do about protecting our children. Perhaps we need to look at our mental health legislation and use its model to protect our children and to protect Mr. Bourgeois from himself. Mr. Bourgeois does not belong loose in our community, nor does he belong in jail the rest of his life. He should be in a secure setting where he is kept busy and our children are kept safe. Thank you. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Cypress- Medicine Hat. Moral Values DR. L. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe it is self- evident that this government has a strong economic agenda. In fact, we have performed an economic phenome non that is recognized throughout the world. We can perform an economic wonder, but we will continue to have the same moral problems we have today: family breakdowns, teenagers having babies, STDs, spousal abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, and others. We have these problems because the welfare state's core understanding of human behaviour is wrong. Efforts to reform the welfare state fail because they do not change core values. As a result, economic reform does not cure moral problems.

The only thing that will cure these problems is a rebirth of ethics and morality in our society. Rather than having condoms and tuxedos at graduation, we need to teach children, in school if we have to, that there is right and wrong. Some things are wrong all the time, regardless of the cultural group or circumstances. Morality and values are not culturally relative. Rather, morality and values are absolute. We need to teach young people and adults that they are responsible for their actions: not society, not parents, but they themselves.

They're making a choice and must live with and be responsible for the consequences.

484 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 *see page 459, left col., para. 6 Until we as a government become leaders in this area and recognize the importance of setting an agenda in ethics, morality, and values, we cannot really move to solve many of the problems outside of the economic realm. If we wish to recreate our society, then we must examine moral and ethical issues as well. In fact, in the latest U.S. election exit polls people voted for candidates who they felt would emphasize moral values. I call upon my government, Mr.

Speaker, to become leaders in a discussion on the development of a national morality. head: Projected Government Business THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition House Leader. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Under Standing Order 7(5) I'd like to ask the Government House Leader what he has planned for the agenda for next week. MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, the planned co-operative approach for next week is that on Monday in the afternoon we should be considering second reading of Bills 2, 4, 6, 10, 1 1, 16, and 17 and, should time allow, then Committee of the Whole as per the Order Paper.

In the evening we'll be in Committee of Supply considering the estimates of the Provincial Treasurer. On Tuesday in the afternoon we will look at any business as per the Order Paper related to Committee of the Whole and in the evening considering the estimates of the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. Wednesday evening: Committee of Supply considering the estimates of the Department of Educa- tion.

Thursday in the afternoon: Committee of Supply consider- ing the estimates of the Department of Health. head: Orders of the Day 2:40 head: Government Bills and Orders head: Third Reading Bill 9 Appropriation (Lottery Fund) Interim Supply Act, 1995 MR. DINNING: I rise to move third reading of Bill 9 standing in my name on the Order Paper. There were some questions that were outstanding from earlier debate, Mr. Speaker, which I would like to briefly address.

I know the Member for Edmonton-Rutherford was particularly interested in knowing that the $35 million that is appropriated is required for the following reasons. About $10 million will go to fund ongoing payment requirements for the community facilities enhancement program, to have those payments made in the period provided for by this Bill. Then there is $4 million that is provided for advanced medical equipment purchase, to include early investment in that equipment early in the fiscal year.

The remaining $21 million is equal to about 25 percent of the remain- der of the proposed lottery f und disbursements, which is a standard release. There was also a question, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the $492 million. If hon. members are able to pull out their business plan book, A Better Way II: A Blueprint for Building Alberta's Future, on pages 12, 13 and 14 of the business plan associated with the Department of Transportation and Utilities there is reference to this $492 million transfer from the lottery fund to the general revenue fund.

When we were in the Assembly this time last year, we passed this same Bill providing for only a $21 1 million transfer. In fact, there was money greater than $21 1 million left in the lottery fund at the end of '94-95 b ecause of the legislation. It requires that this Legislature pass a Bill transferring the correct amount from the lottery fund to the general revenue fund, and therein lies the reason for

section 2 of Bill 9. I know it is a complicated matter, Mr. Speaker, but we're in fact talking here about two fiscal years. So to combine $492 million with $35 million and come up with a number higher than what is on page 42 of Budget '95, I can understand that the hon. member would make that honest error. I simply want to advise him that we are talking here about two fiscal years and that we should not blend the two numbers to come up with and find a similar number in the book. It simply doesn't exist. So with that, Mr. Speaker, I would move third reading of Bill 9. MR. WICKMAN: I just wanted to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I appreciate the Provincial Treasurer coming forward with the information and responding to the questions. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Utilities. DR. WEST: Y es. I'd just like to make a correction. I had some questions last night from the Member for St. Albert, and I had misinterpreted his question as it related to the $35 million on this appropriation Bill, and therefore my answer was not relevant to that $35 million.

Coincidentally this $35 million in the appropria- tion Bill is equivalent to the $35 million retention that's going to be left in the lottery fund in my estimates and in my budget. It was a coincidence. I jumped up and stated what the $35 million was in my budget, and it wasn't relevant to this Bill. So I correct the misinformation that I gave to the Assembly.* [Motion carried; Bill 9 read a third time] Bill 8 Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1995 MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I move Bill 8, Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1995, for third reading. Mr.

Speaker, just so hon. members are aware, the Bill asks for about 32.1 percent for operating expenditures, about 36.9 percent for capital investment, and about 29.2 percent for nonbudgetary disbursements. That is to get us through to the point where the Legislature will indeed pass the appropriation Bill for the entire fiscal year. So with that, Mr. Speaker, I would move third reading of Bill 8. [Motion carried; Bill 8 read a third time] head: Committee of Supply [Mr.

Tannas in the Chair] THE CHAIRMAN: I'll call the committee to order. head: Main Estimates 1995-96 Advanced Education and Career Development THE CHAIRMAN: To begin this afternoon's deliberations on these estimates, we'll call on the hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Career Development for opening comments.

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 485 MR. ADY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to share with the Assembly the estimates of the Department of Advanced Education and Career Development. Prior to doing that, I'd like to acknowledge the assistance that my department has provided in the preparation of this budget and in the preparation of this presentation. I am privileged to have some of them in the gallery today to be part of this, my deputy and other department officials.

When I last presented estimates to you, a number of decisions depended on the outcome of our extensive public consultations. That was the first major policy review of our postsecondary education system since the Worth commission, which was undertaken over two decades ago. During this consultation process we first sought the opinions of Albertans throughout the province and then put these ideas before representatives from all areas of adult learning in the province for their consideration and response.

We discussed the issues with representatives of our institutional boards, administrators, faculties, adult learning groups, private practitioners, counselors, industry representatives, and most importantly, we talked to the students. The resulting document, New Directions for Adult Learning in Alberta, provides us with a policy framework for the current three-year business plan and its successors.

Albertans have told us that they wish to be recognized globally for the excellence of their knowledge and skills, their attitudes and experience that enables them to take responsibility for shaping their futures to participate in the changing economy and work- force, to create new knowledge, and to enrich the quality of life in their communities. In service of this vision this ministry will lead and work with other partners to set new directions for adult learning and provide Albertans with an accessible, responsive, and affordable system of quality adult learning that is accountable for results.

Our direction is clear. Our adult learning system will be centred on meeting the needs of the learner. We have set our goals. We will measure the results achieved and report on the performance of the adult learning system with all learners in mind. Our plan supports the core business of government: people, prosperity, and preservation. We know that more than ever in the future Albertans will need access to learning opportunities in order to achieve their economic, social, and cultural goals. We will therefore work toward helping Albertans to access a diverse range of quality learning opportunities.

To indicate our progress in this area, we will measure our total enrollment in adult learning compared to the total number of adult Albertans. 2:50 Our second goal is to increase the responsiveness of this system to the needs of the individual learner and to the social, economic, and cultural needs of the province. We will measure how well we do this by means of a learner satisfaction index and employability indicators. Our third goal addresses affordability.

Not only do we need to provide quality learning opportunities to an increased number of Albertans, but we recognize that this must be achieved at the lowest possible cost. Per graduate costs and costs per student will be calculated to see where efficiencies have already been made and where further efficiencies can be made in the future. The adult learning system has always kept a record of what went into the system: numbers of students, budget dollars, and others. Our fourth goal, accountability, focuses on results achieved.

For example, performance measures will be established to evaluate the success of public postsecondary institutions. Institutions will report to Albertans on key areas, beginning with results of the 1995-96 academic year. Acc ountability will not be limited to technical and degree programs. The results of base education, skills development, and short-te rm labour market preparation programs will also be measured. A final goal in our business plan emphasizes department efficiency.

We intend to minimize administrative costs within the department and meet our budget target, and we are committed to publishing performance measures with our next business plan. The New Directions document sets the stage for our actions in the future, and 22 strategies were devised to assist us in achieving our goals. The adult learning system and the Department of Advanced Education and Career Development have already made major strides towards our goals.

In the area of accessibility, although grants to institutions were reduced by 1 1 percent in 1994-95, enrollments were not only maintained but reached record levels. This achievement can be attributed directly to the commitment of learning providers to meet the needs of learners and their communities while improving their system and levels of productivity and without reducing the quality of service. I commend the efforts of those people who unstintingly support the postsecondary system in the province.

This includes the board members, most of whom provide their services on a voluntary basis, administrators, faculty members, and support staff. These people share a vision for adult learning and support our urgent need to eliminate the deficit. It is a credit to all of those more than 104,000 students who are currently enrolled full-time in public postsecondary institutions, with a further 66,500 enrolled part-time. Ten thousand additional spaces will be made available through the $47 m illion access fund by the end of 1996-97.

About $1 million was allocated in 1994-95 to create 750 student places over the long term; 18 and a half million dollars will be allocated from the fund in 1995-96. Applications to the access fund are consid- ered for their ability to increase access to student places, for their innovative ideas, and for their cost-effectiveness. Partnerships between providers and the business community are encouraged. Access is also being considered in terms of new technologies and alternate forms of program delivery. A new arrangement with Access television will enable distance delivery alternatives by video.

Progress has also been made towards our second goal, respon- siveness. We are looking for new paths to help Albertans complete degrees. For example, a new innovative program for the University of Calgary allows students to study in their communities while working toward a bachelor of community rehabilitation degree. A collaborative pilot project between the University of Alberta, Faculty of Education, and Grande Prairie Regional College allows students in northern Alberta to complete their studies in education without having to move to Edmonton.

Proposed amendments to the colleges, technical institutes, and universities Acts will allow colleges and technical institutes to grant applied degrees. The applied degree program will be implemented on a pilot basis as an innovative means of preparing Albertans for careers in a rapidly changing economy. Successful proposals will be announced shortly for programs beginning this fall. The Department of Advanced Education and Career Develop- ment is the key funder of both the teaching and research infrastruc- tures of Alberta universities.

For the first time in this ministry's history a consultation process is under way that is totally dedicated

486 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 to the area of scholarly university research and advanced, graduate, education. The resulting report will enable the depart- ment to establish new goals and policies to promote excellence and effectiveness in research at all our universities. In addition to our concern for those Albertans enrolled in formal educational opportunities, we are responding to people who require alternate forms of education and training.

Advanced Education and Career Development in partnership with Family and Social Services is helping more than 35,000 welfare clients get the skills and jobs they need to improve the economic and social well-being of their families and communities. Through five pre-employment training programs more than 24,000 of these clients are provided with life skills and job-specific training – work experience, training on the job, job search and placement services – to help them get and keep jobs. A further 700 welfare clients access academic upgrading and English as a Second Language through the adult development program.

The Apprenticeship and Industry Training Board continues to work in close partnership with employers and employees to ensure the development of a highly skilled workforce. The apprentice- ship board is responding to the new realities of the labour market by working with industry and establishing designated occupations. Designated occupations are part of the apprenticeship and industry training, providing industry with a mechanism to recognize skills and establish provincial standards leading to certification.

As in the trades, designated occupations require industry support to identify workers' skills and competencies in developing suitable training. However, in designated occupations industry provides the total resource to support training. Mr. Chairman, a number of initiatives are under way to support the youth of our province. The summer temporary employment program, called STEP, will be maintained at 1994-95 levels and will enable 4,500 students to develop job skills and obtain work experience.

Advanced Education and Career Development is working with Family and Social Services and Human Resources Development Canada to establish integrated training centres for youth. This initiative will test new approaches to help these young Albertans who are at risk of long-term dependence on public income support make a successful transition to the world of work. Through our registered apprenticeship program, yet another initiative for youth, the apprenticeship board provides an opportu- nity for high school students to work toward work experience credits and high school credits at the same time.

One hundred and thirty students have taken

part in the program to date; 60 of these are now employed full-time and are working toward their journeyman certificate. Other initiatives such as the Keyano College co-op apprenticeship program provide a critical step toward enhancing technical training and future employment for youth. Thirty-eight young people are enrolled in the Keyano program this year. Nine of these are women and eight are aboriginal people. This program won the college the Conference Board of Canada's provincial award this year for industry/education partnerships.

These programs allow students to acquire the necessary skills and encourage the positive work attitude that employers tell us they rate highly when they're looking for employees. 3:00 Goal 3 of our business plan deals with affordability. I'm fully committed to ensuring that financial need is not a barrier to learning opportunities. The Students Finance Board will continue to provide financial assistance to students within the formal postsecondary system, and we will strive for greater harmoniza- tion between the federal and provincial loan programs.

Financial assistance limits will be increased in Alberta by $300 to accommo- date increases in tuition, and the remission program will remain in place to ensure that debt levels are manageable. We'll amend the Students Finance Act to promote a more level playing field between public and private institutions. New legislation will allow students at private institutions to be considered for financial assistance even when the programs in which they are enrolled are available at public institutions. Financial assistance is not limited to university and college students.

Through the skills development program of the Students Finance Board we provided support during the past year to 14,000 students in basic foundation skills and 3,000 students in short-term skills training; 1 1,000 of these Albertans were formerly on welfare. While we expect that fewer students will apply under this program in 1995-96, controls on expenditures will be put in place to ensure continued access to such training for those who require it. Controls on tuition fees will be put in place, and audits will be implemented.

Access to this program will only be granted when students have fully utilized other sources of support. Individual benefits will be modified but will remain significantly above social allowance levels. We have many outstanding students in Alberta. The Alberta heritage scholarship fund provides encouragement and reward to many of these students for their scholarly achievements. The fund provides 12 and a half million dollars each year to learners in support of academic excellence. Since its inception in 1981 more than $136 million has been awarded to over 97,700 Albertans.

This is the most generous allocation of provincial funds in this country. We are reviewing the policy and funding levels of the Alberta heritage scholarship fund to ensure that future generations of scholars receive a fair benefit from this endowment f und. I expect to announce policy decisions in the coming weeks. Accountability. We're already working in co-operation with our institutions to measure and report results. This information will be available to students so that they can make informed decisions for their future.

A commitment has been made to ensure that providers of learning opportunities maintain quality standards. These standards will also apply to private providers of basic education and skills programs. This ministry is committed to removing legislative barriers, to streamlining administration, to implementing efficiencies wherever possible, and to measuring performance and publishing results.

We have already made inroads into reducing overlap and duplication between the two orders of government yet provide better service to Albertans by entering into an agreement with Family and Social Services and Human Resources Development Canada to pilot integrated, one- window service delivery in four communities. We have also made an excellent start on achieving new directions for adult learning. We could not have made it this far alone.

Our progress thus far has been the result of consultation, co-operation, and the development of partnerships be tween governments, institutions, and the private sector, all working towards the development of a system that meets the needs of our learners in Alberta. We are learning to work together with new partners and to allocate our funds more wisely according to a plan that was approved by Albertans. I believe it is important for consultation to continue, and I've already committed to holding a forum on adult learning this fall.

This will provide an opportunity to look at the direction in which we are heading and to assess the progress that we are making. Our previous consultations have resulted in a mandate that positions us to act as the advocate for all adult learners in Alberta.

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 487 We believe the province should play the major role in labour market training, and we have agreed to take on the role of lead province in a forum of labour ministers on April 1 of this year. We will support the people of Alberta in their efforts to be self- reliant and to participate in lifelong learning opportunities. We will promote prosperity for Albertans and Alberta through the creation of knowledge and the development of a highly skilled and productive workforce. We will preserve one of the highest quality systems of adult learning in the country.

We will do so in the face of federal and provincial budget reductions, although the true financial impact of the federal budget reduction remains to be determined. Our plan will work because of the co-operation, commitment, and dedication of those who govern, administrate, and teach at our institutions and because of the active involvement of students in setting policy direction. We all have one important thing in common: a shared commitment to the support of our vision for quality adult learning opportunities for the people of this province.

I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have given of their time, creativity, energy, and enthusiasm to help this ministry achieve a great deal in so short a time. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I would be prepared to answer questions. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. DR. MASSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate this opportunity to speak to the estimates of the Department of Advanced Education and Career Development. I'd like to, if I could, focus my comments on the context.

I have some specific questions, but I'd like to focus on the context of these estimates and the business plan that the department has put out. I would like to develop some generalizations about the estimates and the business plan that seem to arise from the documents. The view from an outside reader, someone who's not enmeshed in the daily operations of the department, is somewhat different, I think, from what the minister has put before the Assembly this afternoon.

I'd like to start with some of those generalizations, but I have a technical question, and I hope that if and when the minister responds, he will address the question. I posed it last year, and I still haven't received a response. Why are the estimates and the business plan separate documents? Why are there no dollars in the business plan? Every criteria you look at in terms of evaluat- ing a business plan indicates that there are going to be dollar bills attached to the objectives and the goals.

I really find it very difficult to understand how you can have a business plan with no money in it and why we try to keep going through this ridiculous exercise of trying to reconcile the estimates in one book with a detailed business plan in another book. So I really hope that he will take the opportunity to address that question. It applies not just to Advanced Education and Career Development; it applies to every business plan that this government says it's putting out and expects to have public approval and some praise for. It's an important issue and, I think, one that has to be addressed.

There are some generalizations. First of all, as you read the documents and the actions of the department over the last year, there seems to be an attempt to centralize control. It follows what happens in K to 12, but there are some actions that the minister and his department have taken to draw power under his office. If you look at the access fund, it's a good example. That was money that was out there that was cut. It was drawn into the minister's office, his purview, and now is being doled out to institutions as they put forward their plans. What has that done?

The impact of that is to centralize control in the minister's hands. If you look in the business plan, you'd think you might be embarrassed to indicate that you've asked associations and boards of governors to open up their contracts. Contracts were usually to be quite sacred, something that was arrived at between an employer, a board of governors, and the affected or interested employee associations.

Here we have a minister who has stepped out of that role, who is breaking that, and walking in and saying now, "By a certain date, I want you to negotiate this into your contract; I want this in the contract." I think it's a dangerous road to have started down, and again it points to the minister and his staff saying, "This is what we want, and we're going to interfere to get it." Again they're centralizing power. 3:10 If you look at program 1, the minister's own office, the reduction is minimal. In his office there's no reduction from last year, and there's an increase in communications.

Now, if you look through the budget, it's one of the few places, except when you get back to the loans program, that there are actually any increases, yet for some reason or another the minister's staff have to have more money for communications and they have to have more administrative systems support. So everyone else is losing. These two areas are gaining. Again I use that as further evidence that there's this notion that we can centralize power, that the minister's office is going to be the centre of advanced education power in this province.

It takes away any kind of local authority being the final word, because everyone knows the minister will step in and overrule them. A second generalization – and I wish not just the minister of advanced education but many of the government departments would review this whole notion that adult education is a business, that government is a business. I think it carries with it a set of values, and it brings with it some assumptions that are blatantly untrue. If you look at vote 2.3, the private colleges, 2.3.2 and 2.3.4, all the other colleges lose money, but the two private colleges gain money.

There's this notion that businesses and private institutions in particular need to be encouraged and rewarded, while money is taken away from public institutions. There's a shift to private institutions and making advanced education a private affair. There are vast differences between business and government, particularly in education. I like those differences, and I wonder if the minister and his deputy and their department have ever sat down and seriously addressed: what is a business and what is the role of government and how do they differ? In business, customer choice keeps prices down.

If you're sitting in Lethbridge and you want to go to university and you have limited funds, you don't have the choice of saying, "I'm going to go to Edmonton," or "I'm going to go to Banff." For many people the local commu- nity is the only place they can get the program they want, and the same holds true for many of the colleges in the province. That's why they were put there in the first place: because people recognized the best places for those programs were the local communities, not to have them competing with one another but to be responsive to local needs.

So to work on the assumption that customer choice will keep prices down I think is alien to the system that historically has been in place in this province. There seems to be built into the plans and the estimates that the market is the model of efficiency. Y ou don't have to pick up a newspaper to understand that that's certainly not true. The market has all kinds of vagaries, has all kinds of failures. The business

488 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 that the minister and his staff are in cannot afford failures. It's just too important to have a major institution fail. So that assumption that the market is a good model for the department to ape in terms of their actions I think is not valid. People don't enter the education market as equals. When you go down to K Mart to buy a vacuum cleaner or a new set dishes, you hit that marketplace as an equal. When you get into an education system, you're not an equal.

There are all kinds of differences in terms of people who enter that in terms of their backgrounds, in terms of their capabilities, in terms of th eir interest, in terms of their knowledge of what they want. That's another big difference. People entering education institutions often do not know what they want. They cannot define exactly what they're going to get out of it. They have a general knowledge, if they enter a program in medicine, of what will happen to them. They have a general knowledge, if they enter a program in science, of what will happen to them. But they don't know the details of it.

That's far different from someone who walks into a store as a customer and picks a product off the shelf. To think that those two things are the same I think leads the department down some roads that aren't very productive and aren't very useful for students or for education in this province. The customer model, the business model, has custom- ers paying directly. Y ou go in, you buy the product, you pay for it. Education's not like that. We've got a whole host of taxpay- ers that are helping to pay the bill.

So to try to pretend that it should be treated as a private business and as a corporation and to use that model again leads you to some false notions. There's emphasis, for instance, that comes in the documents and in the business plans about customer satisfaction. Student surveys – this notion that students are going to have to be kept happy – is one that I think the minister should look at rather seriously. Take a look at some of those student surveys. What kinds of things are valued in the surveys, at least the ones at the institutions I know most closely?

They value a teacher or a professor who comes in at the beginning of the term and tells students exactly what they're going to learn. If you lay out the course of studies, all the readings and all the assignments, the first day, then you're considered good. That gets a high rating from students. Woe be the professor or teacher who turns to students and says: "What is it you'd like to learn? What do you need?" Y ou do that and you drive students to distraction. Which kinds of students do we want to encourage? What kinds of teachers do we want to encourage?

Are they ones that are going to make those students feel very comfortable, that are going to force feed them? I've had students, for instance, tell me that they didn't want to be part of a practicum, that they would prefer to stay in university and have a lecture rather than be sent out to do tasks in classrooms. I don't accept that an instructor who is criticized for that is not performing his or her duty and doing it in the best interests of students.

The whole point I'm trying to make is that building the whole system around the notion of it being a business and applying business assumptions and business values is inappro- priate in many ways. Another generalization – and we've been through this before – is the notion that students are going to have to take on more and more responsibility for costs. If you look at what's happened to tuition, moving to 30 percent by the year 2000 is no answer. All it does is continue the incrementalism that we've had for years and years and years.

We were at 12 percent; we went to 15 percent. [interjections] THE CHAIRMAN: Order. Hon. members, if you wish to engage in lively discussion, please do so outside the Chamber. Sorry for that, hon. member. Edmonton-Mill Woods. DR. MASSEY: Thank you. It's incrementalism, Mr. Minister, and it's not solving the problem. We're going to get to the year 2000 and those institutions are still going to be in financial difficulty, and all you're going to be able to do is turn around and say, "Well, now we'll up it to 35 percent." Five years from now.

There needs to be a serious look at how advanced adult education is financed in this province, and incrementalism is not one of them. The loans program. If you look at vote 3.0.8, the risk premium and guarantees – and I'll look forward to some comment – is the increase in that going to banks for the risk that they're taking, for that 10 percent that the government said they would stay on the hook for? Is that what accounts for that increase? Coupled with that, over on page 39 is a massive increase in student loans, the budgetary provision for future costs of student loans.

I really am alarmed that again the business of loans is going to follow the tuition. All we're going to do is keep increasing loan limits and pushing more and more of the burden onto students. In all the documentation we see a great deal made of the benefits that individual students get from attending postsecondary institutions. We see nothing or very little of the societal benefits down the road.

We don't hear or see that these people are going to live healthier lives, that they're going to make fewer demands on the criminal justice system, that they are going to make greater contributions to the community through volunteer work. All those things can be quantified too. The documents and the rhetoric in the department are silent on those benefits. This whole push of costs onto students and the way it's being justified I think has misled even many students. 3:20 Another generalization that comes out of it is again that the department and the government have this great, great faith in performance objectives.

Let me try a performance objective on you this afternoon, Mr. Minister. Look around this Assembly. A performance objective might be . . . [interjection] Y eah, look around this Assembly. Is a measure of legislators' interest in advanced education indicated by their attendance at sessions about advanced education? I counted just before I stood up; it's about 32 percent. [interjection] Well, give me the numbers over there. All I'm saying is that performance indicators are misleading. They're mechanical. It's borrowed from a system in behavioral objectives that was in disrepute years and years ago.

The whole management model that comes out of advanced education sees education as a technical enterprise. The deputy and the minister and all the mandarins can sit in Edmonton and write objectives, performance measures and send them out across the province, and then they can take these little measures and made judgments about what's going on. It won't work. It didn't work for General Motors; it didn't work for Chrysler. That's where those models were born. They're assembly models. They're factory models of education systems, and they're not going to work. Those models make some false assumptions.

They assume that outsiders can manage the system, and that's not true. The insiders will do you in every time. It makes the assumption that outsiders know better. They don't know better. Again insiders are the people that know. People who have to be affected by decisions, people in local situations can make the best decisions, not some bureaucrat sitting in this building and issuing orders across the province. The technical model you've adopted values efficiency over effectiveness. Sure you may be efficient. Y ou'll get thousands of students through the system. How effective are they going to be?

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 489 Again performance indicators have always fallen on the effective- ness indicators. It has a complete faith in measurement. It believes we are at this sophisticated level, that we can take and measure human behaviour to such a fine point that we can make billion-dollar decisions based on those measurements, and that's simply not true. It values uniformity at the expense of diversity. It's more appropriate for training. The models were born in World War I when they were trying to show raw recruits how to put rifles together. That's really where the model was born.

It's an early 1900s model, and it's been adopted, it seems to me, unthinkingly by this government, department after department after department. It certainly permeates the documents here. A further development is that even in adopting the model you haven't done it right. If you look at 1.2 in the business plan, you're going to "develop a plan to prepare for future enrollment pressures." Where is the plan? Where has the plan been for the last 20 years? Accessibility has been a major problem for this department and this government, and it grows and grows and grows.

Not anywhere in the documents do you see any of the base numbers. How many students are you starting with? A lot is made of the 10,000 that are going to be in place after the access fund takes full hold. But where did you start? Where are those base figures? Why are those base figures not made as public as that 10,000? I think you owe that in a business plan. If you're going to take that route, then at least do it right. There is this notion that even though you have all these plans, there is a feeling that ad hockery still is in full force. Something comes up and there's a reaction to it.

The applied degree program is a good example. Here's a good idea. Applied degrees have all kinds of merit and I think all kinds of possibili- ties. But what's the context for it? They are just another reaction to a situation that's arisen. How does that applied degree fit in with other degrees at institutions in this province and across the country? What are the standards for degree-setting? Mount Royal College for years has begged and begged to be able to offer degrees, yet all of a sudden this degree comes up and is made available. How does it fit with other degrees that are being offered?

Again you get this whole business of ad hockery: we'll respond to something today. The same happened with the student loans; something had to be done. It doesn't form part of a larger plan of financing postsecondary education; we work on the loans plan. So you bounce from problem to problem to problem without any kind of overarching knowledge of where you're going. There are other generalizations that I'd like to share with the minister, and I'll probably do that in writing, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. MR. HENRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few comments and questions that I would like to pose to the minister. First, I would like to very clearly say ditto to what my hon. colleague for Edmonton-Mill Woods said, to the issues he raised. I think we need to distinguish here – I know we can't refer to members' absences, but I hope the minister of advanced education reads Hansard. MS CALAHASEN: What are you talking about? Come on; put your glasses on. MR. HENRY: I'm sorry. Thank you. My apologies. I looked at the wrong chair. MR. SMITH: Do the honourable thing, Mike. MR. HENRY: I hear calls for my resignation.

Not yet, hon. minister of economic development. MR. SMITH: When? MR. HENRY: Not for a long time. Mr. Chairman, there are two types of issues that we have to deal with here. My hon. colleague for Edmonton-Mill Woods has identified some of those issues. Some are philosophical in nature: about how you view the advanced education system in our province. The others are technical in nature, looked at after you've dealt with the philosophical issues.

Firstly, we need to be very clear that there are two approaches to advanced education in this province articulated in this House: one on the government side and one on this side of the Legislature. Very clearly the government views advanced education purely as an economic utility – that is, to produce certain kinds of workers for the economy – and I think ignores some of the other things of advanced education.

As well, the government very clearly is moving towards more individual responsibility or individual off- loading for educating students in our province, that being to the individual and the individual's family, away from public responsi- bility. [Mr. Clegg in the Chair] As well, we're seeing more and more quote, unquote, privatization and indeed commercialization of our advanced education system.

I'd suggest to the hon. advanced education minister that he take the position that his colleague the Minister of Education articulated today in question period, which is, very clearly, that the public system is paramount and should come before the private system when dealing with public dollars and when funding in terms of public dollars. 3:30 I would like to raise some specifics. I asked the minister last year in subcommittee of supply for a breakdown of default rates in terms of student loans by institutions.

The minister had agreed to that, and then later I received a letter from the minister saying that he wasn't going to provide that information. The rationale, which I don't buy, is that there may be some legal problems with that with regard to exposure by certain institutions. Now, it's very clear to me that if institutions, public or private, receive funding either directly or indirectly in the form of student loans, there should be disclosure, and we s hould know how successful we are in terms of those students being able to get employment and repay those loans.

Failing that, I would ask the minister, then, to provide by type of institution that information if he's not willing to provide it by institution. If he's worried about getting his department in a lawsuit by a private vocational college and doesn't want to release that information on that basis, then certainly he shouldn't have any problem releasing it by type of institution. Mr. Chairman, while I'm talking about student loans, I have a couple of comments I'd like to make. First, I have some policy issues that I disagree on with the current minister with regard to student loans and advanced education.

Putting that aside for a minute, whatever system you would develop for student loans or for any public service, there are going to be cracks in the system. I do want to be on record as stating that the Students Finance Board and its staff, in my experience in my constituency with

490 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 students from A VC, Alberta Vocational College, Grant MacEwan, and the university, have gone out of their way to be co-operative and have actually, I think, performed commendable service in terms of trying to fill those cracks in the system when students do fall through them. I wanted to pass that on to the minister. Having said that, there are problems in the student finance system with regard to policy.

Again, understanding the funda- mental disagreement that the minister and I have with regard to the level an individual should assume financial responsibility for education and the level society should help them with, putting that aside, I think there's a fundamental flaw in the minister's logic.

When the minister and the government say that individual students should bear more of the cost of their education and therefore, for the vast majority of students, end up with significantly higher loans, at the end of that individual's education period there's no recognition – we don't have the best of all worlds where every student graduates and is able to find full employment in the field in which they were trained and for the kinds of dollars that they will eventually earn.

It seems to me that if the minister is going to off-load more onto the individual student and require individual students to gain massive loans, very significant loans, then the minister needs to re-evaluate his position on contingency repayment plans, where individuals are able to pay back at the rate in terms of what they earn, perhaps a surcharge on their income.

I point out that that actually might be a benefit to the Crown in that those individuals in those professions where they're able to make higher-than- average incomes in the first few years of entering their profession would essentially pay those student loans back higher, lessening the reliance on student finance in terms of continuing interest rate subsidies, et cetera. Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to a couple of other issues.

The minister had identified in his initial remarks the supports for independent living transfer from Family and Social Services and those – I believe the term is employable – employable individuals who had been receiving social assistance and perhaps attending some sort of training being transferred to his program.

With regard to outcomes and looking at accountability, there is a very strong concern that's been expressed to me in my constituency not specifically by students but by people in the small business sector: what kind of tracking are we doing to ensure that the kind of money that's invested here is producing people who are trained for jobs that actually exist? We know that there are a lot of training programs that then result in six-month employment, or temporary employment.

What we really have to deal with here and what the minister has to be able to provide us with is: how many of those people who are taken off social assistance and told they must have certain kinds of retraining are actually gaining full-time, long-term employ- ment? How are we tracking that? In the minister's business plan – and I have to tell the minister that I find this business plan a bit more like a policy statement and a set of general objectives than any sort of plan. If you look at any sort of time lines, we're always seeing everything's ongoing. Well, talk about a recipe for disaster.

It's fine to say that here are a bunch of objectives, usually very general in nature, and then say that the time lines are ongoing for the next three years. Well, it seems to me that what we need to do is perhaps look at those overall goals.

If you want to have a business plan, in my experience you would say: let's have some very definable and measurable objectives here and then determine how we're going to measure those and determine the very specific time line so that it's fine to see that perhaps – if the minister would refer to 1.5 of his strategies in the Summaries of Goals, Strategies and Implica- tions, that being: "demonstrate the benefits of private sector investment in human resources to develop more employee training opportunities." Well, basically that's ongoing, ongoing, ongoing.

Perhaps it would be more meaningful if the minister or the deputy minister in the business plan would say very specifically that we've measured a certain level of investment from the private sector in terms of employees. There are numbers out there that say that in Canada the average employee is receiving in terms of human resource retraining and whatnot seven hours per year.

We could measure that in three or five or 10 years to see if that had actually increased or perhaps that in three years the number of dollars of private investment in terms of human resource develop- ment had gone from X dollars to X more dollars and specifically what the department's role was. These are a bunch of, frankly, airy-fairy objectives that are not measurable, that are not defined, and the outcomes are not defined.

It's no more than perhaps a PR document, and frankly I would challenge the minister to go home to Cardston and take this into the bank manager and say, "Would you give me a loan to operate this business?" He might be laughed right back to Edmonton. Mr. Chairman, I also wanted to identify the issue of literacy. The measurements identified by the government in terms of literacy are very loose, to say the least, and I would ask him to come back to this Assembly with some more very specific measurements. What is our illiteracy rate now in terms of functional literacy? What do we want that to be?

If we really want an advanced education system that's going to make this province more competitive and more advantageous in the future, let's see what our objectives are, not just that we're going to be ongoing, looking at more and more of this. The foreign qualifications review centre is funded by the Department of Labour, but we have a problem here in that it doesn't seem like the Department of Advanced Education and Career Development and the Department of Labour are really talking at all.

We see a fairly significant amount of time in the minister's business plan in terms of – I'm quoting 2.6: "Improve the transfer of courses and the recognition of prior learning to assist the progress of Albertans in the adult learning system." Y et we have a facade of a foreign qualifications review system that really doesn't work, and it isn' t linked into the department of advanced education.

We have immigrants coming to this country, both self-spon- sored and refugees, et cetera, who have qualifications from other countries, and we now have a volunteer assessment referral centre, number one, where the individual can go in, pay a fee – that's fairly significant, thinking that most individuals who would want to do that are underemployed or unemployed to begin with; where they'd come up with that fee I'm not sure – then they get a piece of paper that isn't worth anything because nobody is bound by it. 3:40 I encourage the minister to perhaps grab the Minister of Labour in the hallway someday and perhaps look at some models such as Quebec has, where the university co-ordinating councils and other bodies are heavily involved in the equivalent of the foreign assessment review centre, so that when an individual comes to Canada with an education degree, perhaps, from a particular country, we know what the equivalent level is here.

When that individual gets assessed, that individual knows that they can take that assessment and it will be honoured by every institution in Alberta.

March 9, 1995 Alberta Hansard 491 We don't have that with the trades. We don't have that with most postsecondary programs.

Frankly, what was recommended when this government diddled around for six or seven years on foreign qualifications – and this government did diddle around for six to eight years on that subject and produced a report that was commendable and then ignored the report and came up with a halfhearted plan, and we now have this assessment referral centre that's woefully inadequate and frankly flies in the face of what the minister of advanced education is saying he wants to do with his department in terms of improving courses and the recognition of prior learning.

The centre simply isn't going to do it, and perhaps the minister can do something in his department to hurry that one along. The minister in his immigration and settlement responsibilities – I'd like to see very specifically how much demand and need is out there for ESL and what sort of studies or assessment the minister has done for English as a Second Language. I'd also like to see a list of programs and agencies that are funded by the department. I'd also like to ask the minister to outline very specifically what his plans are for new and emerging communities in Canada that have come from overseas.

The immigration and settlement grants or funds that are used for agencies for English as a Second Language and other kinds of settlement services are generally used for those that are well established. I understand the rationale for that and don't disagree with that in terms of the minister, but there are significant communities – the Somali community, the Kurdish community, other communities – that are relatively new in our province and would like to get involved in terms of providing settlement services for their communities.

There is absolutely zip support from the government for those groups to do that, and I think this is a public r eaction to having funded ethnocultural groups in the past. I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of this particular cutback. I'd also like the minister to explain again the loan guarantee policy of his government and specifically his department. The minister seems to want to do a hands-on direction in many ways of postsecondary institutions, telling universities, et cetera, what to put in their collective agreements and what sorts of agreements.

Well, I'd like to know what his policy is with regard to loan guarantees and, very specifically, the MBA program, the self- funded MBA program, and the enterprises program at the Athabasca University. Now, there is about a million dollar loan guarantee. I'd like to know specifically what the taxpayer is getting out of that. I'd like to know, in terms of the agreement, who's eventually on the hook? The bottom line is: the taxpayers. I want to know how many students have been served by that program. I'd like to know the process for how that was ap- proved.

If the provincial taxpayer is on the hook for that loan guarantee, I would like to know from the minister how that was approved. Was he informed prior to the loan guarantee being made? Was that brought to cabinet? Was an order in council issued? I'd also like to raise the issue of nursing programs. There have been nursing training programs that have been shut down by this ministry, and I would like to know how that decision was made, how it related to long-term demand for nurses both in and out of this province – we do have our baccalaureate program still in place – and how that compares to other provinces.

I'd like the minister to agree to release any studies or reviews that led to that. In career development the government has been very vocal in its statement that they want to get out of the business of being in business, and I'd like the government to very specifically in this ministry identify all those programs that are in direct benefit in terms of business subsidies; those being apprenticeship, et cetera. I'd like to get those figures.

In addition to that, the minister identifies on page 19 of his business plan that there's going to be an accessibility indicator, and I'd like the minister again to review that. The key perfor- mance indicator is the total enrollment in adult learning as a proportion of adult Albertans. Mr. Chairman, what I would ask the minister to do is to look at coming up with a performance indicator that indicates specifically how many qualified students did not get into the programs that they applied for. Right now we have a problem in this province, and the minister's identified that.

A couple of years ago 25,000 applications that were qualified did not get accepted. The minister's point has been that those 25,000 applications may have been significantly less students, but the minister can't prove that. The only study that has really ad- dressed that is out of the University of Lethbridge, where the study has indicated on average 2.5 applications per student. So extrapolating from that, we have 10,000 students who did not get into postsecondary institutions. The minister's shaking his head.

It's up to the minister to come up with either a plan that has some sort of central registry or that actually has a better way of calculating that. The minister can deny it all he wants, but he hasn't produced any other figures. Thank you. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Edmonton- Glengarry. MR. DECORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to pick up on that last point, because this is a point that the minister has heard me talk about at length in this Assembly and out of this Assembly. When we visit student union representatives, they complain about access for students to postsecondary institutions.

When I have talked to people in authority at postsecondary institutions, they tell me that there is an access problem. For a long time the Liberal opposition has been suggesting that there needs to be a tighter review, a tighter scrutiny, a closer scrutiny of this whole issue. The Liberal opposition has suggested on a number of occasions over many years that there be a central registry. Some of the arguments that the minister has made, and ministers before him, were that there was doubling up of applica- tions to various postsecondary institutions. Well, if that's the case, Mr. Minister, show us your goods.

Show us your documen- tation. Give us the proof that clearly shows that this doubling up exists. A central registry would clear up the issue once and for all and completely, and you'd never have us bugging you on this issue year after year. Why is it that other states and other provinces have those central registries and they're able to track students who want access to postsec ondary institutions very well but we don't? I think when you're talking about something as serious as the education of our young men and women, you need to be on that issue.

Y ou need to be clear on that issue, and you need to address the issue if it's getting out of control. My friend from Edmonton-Centre has talked about 25,000 students who haven't been able to get access. I've visited postsecondary institutions, and I've talked to presidents or vice- presidents who tell me that there are two or three applications or four applications for every spot. I've spoken to people in authority at our technical schools, and they talk about a number of applications for every spot. So, Mr. Minister, tell us exactly what the facts are.

I want those facts, and I think Albertans are entitled to those facts on the basis

492 Alberta Hansard March 9, 1995 of each institution. How many applications were made? How many people were accepted in each of those postsec ondary institutions? If you can help me, if you've got some kind of information on it, show me. Tell me; prove to me that so many of them are doubled up. Don't just give me some figure that you think or you estimate. I want to know the facts, because this issue is too important for estimates to be made. Mr. Chairman, until that's done, as I said, the Liberal opposi- tion will continue to use statistics that they get from postsecondary institutions.

They will continue to use information that they get from representatives of student unions that suggest that 25,000 or more students can't get access. 3:50 The second issue that I want to pursue is the issue of the strangulation of postsecondary institutions by cutting them back so severely. We heard recently that the dean of Faculty of Manage- ment at the University of Calgary – I hope I'm paraphrasing this correctly – talked about the difficulty in getting high quality professors, teachers to teach at the University of Calgary. I guess it's specifically in the Faculty of Management.

The postsecondary institutions are so pressed that they can't compete. They can't bring in the best men and women, and they can't bring in new men and women to teach the young people of our province. I want to know from the minister what sort of discussions he's had with postsecondary institutions on this issue. I know that our caucus has received representation from the association represent- ing professors and teachers at universities. I think we're clear and correct in saying that this is now a problem. Confirm that this is a problem or it isn't a problem.

Confirm that there isn't a brain drain that's leaving Alberta or that people aren't coming into Alberta to teach our young men and women. We used to brag about high-quality education in this province. We used to brag during the Lougheed era that more money went into the assistance of education on a per student basis than any other province in Canada. We don't enjoy that position when compared to other provinces any longer, and I think that's a detriment to the young men and women of our province. The onus is on you, Mr.

Minister, to show and to prove to us that there isn't some irreparable harm being done to our institutions because of the strangulation that you're putting on them. That flows, then, into the next issue with respect to strangula- tion of these institutions, and that is capital funding. Last year I spoke on this issue and the year before. I talked about how postsecondary institutions were not getting the kind of moneys that they needed to make repairs to their capital infrastructure.

If you ask any engineer, if you ask the former Deputy Premier of our province, he'll tell you that if you don't repair a road soon enough, then you have to pay quadruple or more down the line for ignoring that simple maintenance. Now, my recollection in speaking to people in authority at these postsecondary institutions is that these capital improvements, this maintenance, is now being overlooked. I would like to suggest to the minister that this means a quadrupling or more of the difficulty down the line. Give us feedback. Give us the position, Mr.

Minister, in your discussions with postsecondary institutions on that issue. Another issue that I've talked at length about in this Assembly is a game plan rationalizing all of the postsecondary institutions of our province. The minister was present when the previous minister of advanced education from Lethbridge indicated in this House, took great glee in telling this Assembly and people in Alberta that he was going to have an analysis done of what every institution did, and then he would formulate a game plan from that knowl- edge as to the plan for postsecondary education in Alberta.

A lot of energy went into the preparation of that analysis by each individual institution. I remember being in Grande Prairie and listening to how they were going about and spending money going through that analysis. Everybody did that. Every institu- tion did that. They fed it into your ministry, and we were promised that we were going to have a document that we the opposition and Albertans could look at and say: "Uh huh, I now understand how this process works.

I now understand how students who go to Grande Prairie College can work their way through the system and get access into the University of Alberta or the University of Lethbridge or the University of Calgary." Y ou still can't get that clear picture. There's still backup and fuzziness and overlap and contradiction, and I think we need that cleared up. So, Mr. Minister, undertake to give us the document that you've prepared in the end. I've asked for this before. Give us the document.

Show us what the final game plan was and is, and if you have diverted from that game plan, tell us why and how you diverted from it. Mr. Chairman, I learned today, listening to the Minister of Finance at the speech that he gave to the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce, that 26 percent of the total federal budget relates to transfer payments to provinces. The federal government indicated in its meeting that the Minister of Finance had with his provincial counterparts that there was a call from Canadians to cut back on expenditures.

When 26 percent – I hope I'm correct in that figure – of your total budget is transfer payments, he gave notice that there would be a cutback. Obviously, this is going to be serious this year and next year and the year after, because as I understand the federal budget, most of the cutting is going to come in that third year. I'd like to know how you've prepared for that, Mr. Minister, to deal with that problem on a postsecondary system that's already strangled, that's already on its knees, that has difficulty with its capital infrastructure and difficulty in paying

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19950309
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L23 S3 19950309 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	bfab3e9afceba022b43e75b022a50b02d16ec1bb

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (json).