ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No.4A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 7 DECEMBER, 1982. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Msniloba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Lau rent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRI EDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURL AY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maur een HYDE, Lloyd JOHN STON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Ger ry) NORDMAN, Rur ik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard A. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Mur iel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URU SKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Spri ngfiel d Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhinela nd Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churc hill St. Bon iface Riel El mwood Kil donan Arthur Emerson Lakesid e Brandon East Ri ver East Tuxedo Concordia Swan Ri ver Virden Ki rkfield Park The Pas Ru pertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Ni akwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Robli n-Russell St. Norbert Assinib oia Gladstone Pembina Selki rk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mou ntain Bu rrows Rossmere ln kster Fort Garry Osborne Ri ver Heig hts Fl in Flon Interlake Lac du Bon net St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 7 Decem ber, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti- tions Reading and Rec eivin g Petitions . Pres enting Re ports by Standing and Sp ecial Commit tees MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Fi nance. HON. V. SC HROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a numb er of returns to file today: First of all, the Annu al Report of Manit oba Data Services for the year ended March 31, 19 81; second, the Public Trustee Report for the year ending March 31, 19 82; next, a return un der

Section 30.2 of The Law Society Act; next, a return under

Section 13 of The Special Mu nici­ pal Loan and Gene ral Emergency Fund Act; then Vo lum e 1 of The Fin ancial Stateme nts. Public Accounts, for the year 19 81- 82 ending March 31 , 19 82, as well as Vol ume 2 of the same report; and the report of the Pro vinc ial Audit or for the year ending March 31, 19 82; and fin ally, the Quarterly Fi nancial Report for the six mont hs ending September 30, 19 82; and, Mr. Speaker, I have a short statement to make with respect to that last doc um ent and I have copies available. MR. SPEAK ER: Is there a copy for the Chair? The Hon our able Minis ter of Fina nce. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. In recent weeks, governme nts across the cou ntry have been issuin g updated reports on their financial pos i­ tions. Consi stently, right across the country, those updates have shown the same basic results. In every case, the national recess ion has un dercut revenue growth, and the drop in reve nu es has led to substan­ tial deficit in creases. As our own Second Qu arter Re port in di cates, the same trend - reduced revenue growth as a res ult of the rece ssion - has ine vitably affected our provinc e's position as wel l.

The largest single adju stment we have faced is a reduction of about $81 mil lion in the forecast of cor­ poration inc ome tax revenues. This incl udes an allow­ ance of $16 mil lion for a negative adjustment in respect of the 19 81 taxation year. Overall, we are now project ing a 19 82-83 com bi ned deficit of $498.4 mil lion, an inc rease of about $15 5 mi llion over the printed Estimates. This is a substan­ tial increase in the def icit and we are concerned about it.

It is im portant to remem ber that because most of the inc rease in the deficit res ult s from the effect of the rece ssion on reve nue s, it is reaso nable to concl ude that once a national recovery begins to take hold we will see a pick-up in revenue growth and a reduction in the pressure on our financial posi tion. We belie ve most Manit obans recog ni ze that in a period of severe rece ssion an in creased deficit not only is un avoidable, but is in fact appropri ate and 48 desirable to sust ain and sti mu late eco nomic activity.

My col leagues and I, who attended the Eco nomic Sum mit Conf erence in Portage la Pr airie, were encour aged that many of the private sector delegates appeared to share this view and to agree that the alternatives to a larger deficit - drast ic expenditure cuts or subs tantially larger, hi gher taxes - were defi­ ni tely not what the eco nomy needs at this time. Of course, some provinces have taken such action to a degree, such as, by closing ho sp itals, schools and laying off large num bers of staff, but most have rec­ ogn ized that such action is count er-prod uctive.

Our revi sed Estima tes of total expenditure for the 19 82-83 fiscal year are within 1. 8 percent of the ini tial Esti mates. In fact, on a department-by-depar tment basis, most of the projections are even clo ser to the ori gin al Bu dget targets. The main dif ference from the "print" is an in crease in statutory public debt costs. Ou r success in ho lding down expenditure growth without dam aging esse ntial programs has been achieved thro ugh detail ed program reviews and real­ locations of resources within departments wherever possi ble. This process is con tinuin g.

Mu ch of the em phasis on shif ting and stretch ing resources has necessarily, however, been focused on next year's plans and the results will be made kno wn when the Esti mates for 19 83-84 are tabled in the Hous e in the New Year.

I want to advise the Hous e at this time that I have req uested Professor Clarence Barber of the Univ er­ sity of Mani toba, who has also been named recently to the Federal Royal Comm ission on the Economy, to look at our current system of presenting the prov in­ ce's ac counts, to com pare it with those of other jur is­ dictions , and to suggest ways in which we mi ght make it more inf ormative and meaning ful, both to mem bers of this House and to the taxpayers of Manitoba. We hope to have some suggestions from Professor Barber before we resume sitting in the New Year.

If so, it may be possible for us to cons ider some im provements in the presentation of the 19 83 Bud get and Estimates. To keep the deficit situa tion mana geable, we are · taking additiona l steps to contain expenditure growth, both for the balanc e of the current year and in to the new fiscal year. Desir able but non-ess ential spendi ng approved for 19 82-83 which does not offer signif icant, eco nomic or social benefit will be postponed or cancelled.

To supp lement correct ive action already taken, the Government has recently adopted the fo ll owing expenditure control measures: Ou t-of-prov in ce travel will be lim ited to essential conf erences and meetings, and the num bers travel­ ling will be kept to an absol ute minimum - gener ally one official, un less it is im perative that more than one attend. No fur ther additions to the Government's vehicle fleet will be permit ted. Vehicle requirements mus t be provided from within the existing fleet.

Treasury Board mus t approve any new road con­ struction projects, land acqui sition, and drainage pro­ jects and all departments will be requ ired to make additional efforts to remain within current approved

7 December, 1982 funding limi ts. Final ly. we intend to limi t new hiring to all but the most essential positions. This is not a rigid, arbitrary staff "freeze," but it is definitely a "chil l." It will mean that a numb er of positions will go un fil led. To conclud e. Mr. Speaker. the deterioration in our position as a res ult of the recession has been less severe than it has in some other Canadian juri sdic­ tions.

In part that can be attributed to the fact that our econ omi c perf ormance has been relatively favourable com pared to that of other provinces. and in part to the fact that we have impl eme nted a num ber of policies to secure our econ omi c base and to protect Mani tobans against the worse effects of national pol icies and national conditions. Next week I will be attending a Federal-P rovincial Conference of Finance Mi nisters in Ottawa.

One of the major objectives of that conference is to ensure that all provinces and the Federal Government work together as closely as possible to ens ure that the resources we do have available are allo cated most effectivel y. I sh ould em phasize that while we are fully prepared to co-operate with the Federal Government. we also look to the national Government to provide con struct ive leadership and to ensure that national pol icies contribute as mu ch as possible toward reduc­ ing unempl oyment and ensu ring a sustained recovery across the count ry. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nou rable Leader of the Opp ositi on.

HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we have just heard this Government con victed out of its own mout h for its incom petence, for its maladm in istratio n, for its inabil­ ity to carry out the mandate of government in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, there is a phrase in the statement that was used by the Mi ni ster of Finance - if he stil l deserves to be called by that title after the first year of his control over the finan ces of this province - there was a statement to the effect. Sir, that other actions wou ld be taken by the Governm ent to secure the eco­ nomi c base of the province against recession.

I say, Sir. the best action that could be taken by this Governme nt to secure the province against economi c recession would be for it to resign today. Mr. Speaker, people who have demon strated their un fitness. their inabili ty to govern, should get out of the road. call an election and let others who are capa­ ble get in and do the job. Mr. Speaker, who are these contemptible people to stand before the people of Mani toba today and say we aren't going to have a Bu dget deficit of $335 milli on; our estimate right now is almost $500 mi lli on.

Who are they in one year to load $15 5 milli on more onto the backs of yet unb orn Mani tobans because of their inabil ity to govern? Who do they th ink they are. Mr. Speaker? Let them get out of the road. They're incom petent. Mr. Speaker. we heard in the Throne Speech hand­ holding statements about this Government coming into office, taking over when a recession was un der way. Wel l, Mr. Speaker. if they knew the recession was un der way in the Throne Speech. why didn't they kn ow the recession was un der way a year ago when they were drawing up these forlorn Estim ates of Expendi ture and Revenue ?

They can't have it both 49 ways. Mr. Speaker, if they kne w this. why did they present this Hous e with false spending estimates and false revenue estimates if as they say in the Throne Speech there was a recession under way of which they had kno wledge? They can't have it both ways. Mr. Speaker. They can't continue to mi slead the peo­ ple of this province and this Ho use. The Mi ni ster of Finance, Mr.

Speaker, and I wish the camera wou ld swing onto him, is laughing as he sits here admitting the greatest gross negli gence in the admin istration of publi c finance in the history of this century and he thin ks it's a joke. Wel l, he, Mr. Speaker. is a socialist joke and we're going to be rid of him and his incom petent colle agues very, very soon. He says, isn't it wonder ful we are doing better than other pro­ vinces. The Prov ince of Que bec, Mr. Speaker, is only projecting an increase in its deficit of $200 mi ll io n. Mr.

Speaker, here is the Government of Mani toba, a pro­ vince with jus t over a milli on people with expe nditures of about $2.5 bi lli on, coming in and saying that they're going to do uble last year's deficit in one year and say it's not our fault; it's all the fault of the recession. Wel l, they were there. They were in office and they're to blame, and when the children and the grandchildren in this province have to pay the debt charges for these incompetent left-wing cupi dities -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friends gave me the word I was searching for, incom petent left-wing joke rs who call themselves the Government. because they sit and laugh at what they have infl icted on the people of Mani toba in one short year. Mr. Speaker, I don't need any communi st interjections. I don't need any com muni st interjections in this House from the one at the end of the table; we kno w about him. They say, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Hono urable Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes have a point of order? HON. W.

PARAS IUK: The people on this side of the House are New Democ rats, I find it very objecti onable when we have the Leader of the Opp osition sinking into the gutter and starting to go back to the poli tics of the 19 30s when people called each other fascist and communi st. Mr. Speaker. I wou ld hope that we have a new approach in this House in the 19 80s. MR. SPEAK ER: I thank the Hon ourable Mi nister for bringing that to the attention of the House. The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker. we'll have a new approach in the House when we get new and better faces. On one page. Mr.

Speaker, we hear these incom pe­ tents say this. 'This is a sub stantial increase in the deficit and we are concerned about it." That's on page two. You go down two paragraphs. and they say, ". an increased deficit not only is un avoidable, but it is, in fact, appropri ate and desira ble to sustain and stim u­ late economic activity." Wel l, how con cerned can you be about something that you think is appropriate. If you think a $500 mi l-

7 Decem ber, 1982 lion deficit is approp riate for Manitoba, you'd better get out of office right away, because it isn' t approp­ riate, and there are a mi llion people in this prov ince who are prepared to tell you if you'll screw up your cou rage and call an elec tion. We' ll tell you rig ht now, Mr . Speaker, what the people of Manitoba will say in the face of a $500 mil lion deficit. Mr.

Speaker, there's another statement made in here, the truth of wh ich we will wait for fur ther Quar ­ terly Reports to bear out, and that is on page three, where they say that, "Our revised Estima tes of total expenditur es for 19 82-83 are within 1. 8 percent of the in itial Esti mates." We will be looking very very care­ fully at that statement to see what credibili ty can be attached to it when other Qu arterly Repo rts come in, because we've come to learn that if these people, Mr .

Speaker, estimate that they're going to have a deficit of $335 mil lion, and it can turn in to 500 mil lion in six months, then what wei ght can you attach to a Gove rnme nt which says its expenditur es are only up 1. 8 percent, when its deficit is up something lik e 60 or 70 percent over what they predic ted six or seven mont hs ago. What a cr ass gr oup of incomp etents, Mr . Speaker ! Then to try to blame it on the Federal Gover nm ent, to try to blame it on anything else but their own mi sh andl ing of the ir own mand ate in this prov in ce. Mr .

Speaker, I say to the pe ople of Manit oba: Watch with a great deal of conc ern the move that is being herald ed in this statement whereby a professor at the Un iversity of Man itoba who, as I recall, has already said that a huge deficit for the cou ntry would not be a terri ble thi ng. A professor who is on tenu re, I daresay, at the Univ ersity of Manit oba, and who flie s in the face of all of the econo mic advice that is coming to bear and being brought to bear, Mr. Speaker, up on the national def icit of $23.5 billion which is still rising. But the point is, Mr.

Speaker, when this Government says that they are asking this professor to look at our cur ­ rent system of pres enting the prov inc e's account s to com pare it with those of other ju risdictions and to sugge st ways in which we mi ght make it more inf or­ mative and mean ingful and also, if so, it may be possi­ ble for us to cons ider some impr ovements in the pres­ entation of the 19 83 Budget and Estim ates, I say to the people of Manit oba, gi ven the track record of this group of incomp etents, watch out for people who are tryi ng to cook the books because they don't dare tell the truth.

The one thing they want to do is to erase and to eradicate the former precedents by which the revenu es and expenditu res of this province were presented to the people of Man itoba. They want to change the method of bookkeep ing all of a sud den to cover up their $500 mi llion deficit. Mr. Speaker, we are receivi ng this statement a week, two weeks, later. We are receiving this statement as they try to manipula te the Debate in this House, but as I said yesterday, in the absence of the Minis ter of Fina nce, his attempt at mani pul ating the Debate in this House is not going to work.

Those cheap, tawdry tricks of the left wing are not going to work in this Parliame nt. Mr . Speaker, he can depend, per sonally from me, that he will hear about this admi ssion, this convic tion against him and his alleged abili ty. He will hear about it chapter, lin e, and verse every hour of the Throne 50 Speech Debate and when the Ho use resumes again, and it had better resume in Janu ary, Mr. Fi rst Min ister, because we want to keep track of you people. No Januar y hol idays, let's get back to busi ness here after this accounting.

Let's resume this House in January, so that we can keep a watch on these people with their demon strated in com petence as related to the people of Manitoba today. At the end of the statement, what do we get? "To supp lement corrective action already taken, the Government has recently adopted the following expen ditur e control measu res" and they talk about out-of-province travel. They talk about no additions to the fleet. They talk about Treasury Board approving any new construction projects and li miting the hiring to all but the most essential positions. Mr.

Speaker, those are all good measur es and do you kn ow why we kn ow they're good measu res? Because we had to bring them into effect in 19 77 to cur e the hemorrhage of expendi tur es that their predecessors were in flicting on the people of Manitoba at that time. The same in com petent lot are back in the saddle again tempor­ arily and whi le this kin d of measure will work wi th a government that belie ves in restrainin g public expen­ diture, I doubt if they have the int estinal fortitude or the will to carry it out at all. Mr.

Speaker, I concl ude by saying that this is a sho ckin g statement that has been presented to the people of Manit oba today. No suc h statement need have been presented at all if they had been do ing their job. They're not do ing their job. They are prac tising their crazy kin d of left-wing bigotry in this provinc e in the admin istration of our affairs. Mr. Speaker, they belie ve that a small group of left-wing activis ts can take over a pro vinc e and can ru in a provinc e's fi nan­ cial rating, can ru in a provi nce's financ es, and say, wel l, it's all the problem of the national Governme nt. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, that can't and that won't happen in this provin ce so long as we, on this side of the House, and the majority of the ci tizens of Man itoba, I can assure you, draw breath. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bi lls INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question period, may I di rect the attention of mem bers to the Speaker's gall ery where we have the Hi gh Commissioner of New Zealand, Mr . Edward Latter. On behalf of all the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. There are 30 students of Gr ade 9 standing from El mwood Hi gh School.

They are un der the dir ection of Mr s. Haggarty and Mr s. Landry. The school is in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for El mwood. There are 35 students of Gr ade 8 standing from the Ge ner al Wolfe School un der the di rection of Miss Suterman. The school is loc ated in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Ell ice. On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Memb er for

7 December, 1982 Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, before Oral Ques­ tions, I wish to address the Ho use on a Matter of Privi lege and I will be concluding my remarks, Sir, with a su bstantive motion. Yester day, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Honour able Minis ter of Commun ity Services and Corrections dur ­ ing dai ly que stion period whether he would confirm that he had establi shed an inquir y in to conditions at Heading ley Jail. I descri bed the inquir y as a secret comm ission of inquir y because I had reli able in forma­ tion .

Sir, that suc h an in vestigation was in deed un der way and I found it unacceptable that the Mini ster appeared to be procee ding covertly and that he had avoided making any public annou ncement or public disclosur e of his action. My pu rpose, Sir , was merely to strip away the secrecy of that inquir y so that we mi ght kno w what the terms of reference were and are and, if we were un satisfied, suggest to the Min ister what those terms of reference should be. Until the past 24 hours, Mr.

Speaker, that was the sole que stion at issue but the Minis ter's responses to my qu estions, and I have a transcript of yesterday's Oral Question period in front of me, and sub seq uent discoveries, disclosu res, adm issions and com mentar­ ies in the media, and I have current media reports with me, now raise a mu ch mor e ser ious qu estion, Sir. They now raise the qu estion of a de li berate breach of the privile ges of this House by the Mi nis ter of Com­ muni ty Services and Corrections. The Mi nis ter deni ed in this House yesterday, Sir , that he has set up suc h an inquir y.

He said, in effect, that he was merely in tend ing to do so in the futu re. I want to stress, Mr. Speaker, that the question at that point in time was not earthshak in g, it was a qu estion that was designed to enable me to inquir e of the Mini s­ ter what those terms of reference were because I wish to say, without dig ressi ng, and I won't dig ress, Sir, that I don't belie ve those terms of reference are accu­ rate or wide enough or on target. I will raise that with the Mi nis ter later, but he denied that he had even set up suc h an inv estigation and that is the point to which I am speaking, Mr. Speaker.

In this Hous e he advised us that he was merely contemplati ng suc h a move. That appears, Mr. Speaker, to have been an in expli­ cable and an incompr ehensible and a totally un accep­ table act of mis leading of the memb ers of this House. Sub seq uent discoveries, as I've said, and admission s and repo rts in the media confi rm that the sub ject mat­ ter of my que stion yesterday was accur ate and that a un iversity professor in Winn ipeg is ind eed already at work on the inquir y on the Min ister's in structions, as I had inquir ed of him on four occas ions in que stion period yesterday afternoon.

The Min ister has misl ed this Hous e, Mr. Speaker, and furt her exploit ed the credib ility of the Fi rst Minis ter's Govern ment and I have no recourse, Sir , but to move. as a Matter of Privi lege THAT this House do censur e the Min ister of Com mun ity Services and Corr ections for a serious breach of the privi leges of its mem bers by mis leading its mem bers in the matter of the establis hment of an Inquir y in to conditions at Heading ley Jail. It is seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Sturgeon Creek 51 MR. SPEAK ER: Order please.

Are there any mem bers present who wis h to advise the Chair as to whether this matter is a proper motion of privi lege? The Honour able Min ister of Com mun ity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order and a matter of personal privi lege, I explai ned to the ho nour able member yesterday that when we had finali zed the terms of reference and when this matter had been fully dealt with by the Govern ment MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. I belie ve the Honour ­ able Mi nis ter is debating the context of the matter and not whether or not the motion is a proper matter of pr ivilege.

I have not put the motion to the Hous e yet; it is not a debatable issue. The Honour able Minis ter. HON. L. EVANS: Mr . Speaker, I'm sim ply saying on the matter of the point of order that the allegation that is made by the ho nour able gentleman is not true and h e is sti ll using his im agination, so I reject his alle ga­ tions. There is no evid ence whatsoever to support his . MR. SPEAKER: Or der ple ase. Or der please. Suc h remarks as the Mini sternas made would be proper if and when the motion is put to the House. It has not yet been put to the House.

I'm asking if there is any advice from any of the me mb ers as to whether it shou Id be or whether it is not in order. The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it is quit e diffi­ cul t if a Min ister canno t rise on a poi nt of order and state that there is no factual proof in the accusation - he's repeating the same thing he did yesterday. That's about the only way he can explain this point of order and say that there is no fact to it at all. You've got to have facts before you bring accusation in this Hous e. MR. SPEA KER: Or der ple ase. The Hono u rable Memb er for Vir den. MR.

H. GRAHAM : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I draw to you r attention, Sir , that the issue before the House is a motion that has been duly moved and seconded. It is a proper Motion of Privi lege and if you refer to Beauchesne ; Sir, you will find that it is not the role of the Speaker to rule on that; it is only the Ho use that can decide on the issue. It is the Speaker's pre­ rogative, if he so desires, to possibly in terfere only to the point where he can change the time of debate, probably from the present to the end of the qu estion perio d, that is under Beauchesne.

Under our own ru les it says it mu st be raised im mediately. So I sug­ gest to you, Sir, the only cou rse of action is for the House to debate the issue now. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: It is my un derst anding - this que s­ tion, of cou rse, having been raised and disc ussed brie fly yesterday, Mr. Speaker - that once the claim has been made of a breach of privi lege it is then the

7 Decem ber, 1982 duty of the Speaker to decide if a prim a facie case can be establ ished. The Speaker requir es to be satisfied both that the pr ivi lege appears to be suf ficie ntly involved to justif y him gi ving suc h precedence, as it is some time s put that there is a prima facie case that a breach of pr ivi lege has been comm itted and also that the matter is being raised at the earl iest opportunity. As I said yesterday, I'm not raising the issue of whether or not it has been raised at the earl iest op por­ tunity; clearly it has but the mere mak ing of a motio n does not establis h a prima facie case.

The mere rhe­ toric of the person moving the motio n does not estab­ lis h a prima facie case. The person moving the motion has said that on his interp retation of words used in debate that there was a mi sleading of the Hous e. The record is before us and for the Speaker to peruse if the Speaker wis hes to take it under advisement. I have read the record that is before us and clearly it cannot be said in the way in which it was said by the mem ber at all that there was any mi sleading of the Hous e.

The record speaks for itself and it would be the duty of the Speaker to see whether or not, in the context of the motion made, namely, that the Ho use was misl ed by a statement made in the House by the Mi nister. The statement made by the Min ister is now a matter of record. It is relatively easy to see without debate, without taking up the time of the Hous e, whether in fact a prima facie case has been estab­ lis hed. It is the du ty of the mover, Sir, to establis h that, at least on a balance of probab il ities, not merely to declare it. To declar e is not to establ ish.

It has been argued in terms of the record; the record is availa ble. You will find, I submi t, on perusal, that no such claim has even been establis hed to the poin t of a prima facie case. Therefore I recomme nd that you take the matter under adviseme nt and rule as you are bound to rule -(In terje ctio n) - I'll wait for the owls to stop hooting if I may, Mr . Speaker, so that you can fulfil! the duty which is cast up on you, properly, by the precedence in this Ho use, to see whether or not the motion shou ld be proceeded with. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Memb er fo r Tur tle Mountain. MR. B. RANSO M: Mr.

Speaker, since you have asked for advice on the que stion may I draw to your attention that our Ru le 24 req uir es that a Matter of Privi lege be taken into cons ideration im media tely, it cannot be set aside. I also, Sir, would lik e to dr aw to your attention, Ci tation 80(2 ) of the Fi fth Editio n of Beauch esne. Sec­ tion (2) says, "A Question of Privi lege on the other hand," and this is in reference to pr ivi lege rather than a Point of Order, "is a qu estion partly of fact and partly of law, the law of Contempt of Parliame nt, and is a matter for the House to determin e.

The decisio n of the Hous e on a que stion of privi lege, lik e every other matter which the Hous e has to decide, can be elici ted only by a que stion put from the Cha ir by the Speaker and resolved either in the affirmative or the negative and this que stion is necessa rily founded on a motion made by a member." The motion, of cour se, having been made by the Memb er for Fort Garry. Section (3) says, "It follows that, though the Speaker can rule on a que stion of order, he cannot rule on a 52 que stion of privi lege.

Hi s function, when a que stion of privi lege is raised, is limit ed to decid ing whether the matter is of such a character as to entitle the motion which the memb er who has raised the qu estion des ires to move to prio rity over the Orders of the Day." Mr. Speaker, in raising the que stion of privi lege, the Memb er for Fort Garry said indeed that the evidence for his Matter of Privi lege was in Hansard in the answers giv en by the Min ister of Commun ity Services yesterday in which he denied that the comm ission had been establ ished or indeed that the Cha ir man of the Comm ission had been appoin ted.

The Mem ber for Fort Garry also said that the evidence is available here, Sir, in a clip ping from the Winnipeg Free Press of today where the gentleman in que stion is indeed quo ted as saying that he has been appoin ted, he is in fact serving as head of this comm issio n, and the Memb er for Fort Garr y did not go into the detail of reading that into the records, Sir, but I'm sur e that he's qui te prepared to do that, or indeed, I can do it.

In the interests of saving the time of the Ho use, the information was presented to the Ho use, tabled in the House, Sir , the case is establ ished on the basis of that information, and I submit there is a prima facie case and the question sh ould be put to the House. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mi nister of Com­ mu nity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I could refer you to Page 28 of Hansard of Monday the 8th, yester­ day, and I think if you'll read that it's qui te clear that my answer was correct, accurate; it was not mi sl ead­ ing.

The honourable memb er is mak ing some allega­ tions, etc., which he cannot su bstantiate. What I said yesterday - and it's qu ite clear here - that this is corr ect and true, and I repeat that. The Mi nis ter is making a wild unfounded allegation for which he has no evi­ dence. I sugge st, Mr . Speaker, that you sh ould con­ sider this matter before any fur ther steps are taken. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon our able Memb er for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, I wish to · concur with the suggestion of the Mem ber for Tur tle Mountain, that there is a prima facie case of privi lege here.

The Memb er for Fort Garry has alleged that the Mi nister has deli berately mi sled the House. The Mi nis ­ ter has re pl ied that he has not. I think the evidence in the motion or the wording in the motion meets with the demands of our Ru les and of Beau chesne and the que stion to be decided by you, Sir, is whether or not the debate sh ould proceed to di scuss this matter of privi lege. The memb ers wis h to dis cuss that qu estion, the Min ister wou ld lik e to set the record straight, and I'm sur e the Memb er for Fort Garry wou ld lik e to have the record set straight.

I would sug gest to you, Sir , that the matter of whether or not then the debate shou ld pr oceed should be put to the House. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I thank all the mem bers who have offered their advice on this matter.

7 December, 1982 The Hon our able Mem ber for Turtle Mou ntain is qu ite correct that it is the Ho use that make s the deci­ sion on the motion itself. The matter at the moment is whether the motion itself is in order. There are two thi ngs that have to be satisfied, two conditions that have to be satisfied. before a motion of privi lege is in order: one is the fact that it should be raised at the first avail able oppor tun ity. which I accept that it has been done: the second one. that there is a prima facie case which has been referred to by several mem bers.

Without taking the matter un der advisement when it might not come up again until tomorrow, I do get the sense of the House that they consid er it should be dealt with at this moment and I will then, therefore, rule that the motion is in order. Do you want it read to you again? MOTION presented MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Com­ muni ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: I was wonde ring, Mr. Speaker, whether the hon ourable mem ber who makes the alle­ gations wis hed to el aborate and explai n his particu lar posi tion. Mr.

Speaker. as usual, the honour able mem ber is very good at twis ting a situation. twisting words and mis leading the public of Manit oba and there were examp les in the last House where this Mem ber for Fort Garry made certain statements which, upon further check ing, were totally unf ou nded. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I said yesterday in answer to the Hon our able Mem ber for Fort Garry is on Page 28 of Hansard, and what I said is a carefu lly thoug ht­ out reply which does reflect certainl y the situation. What I stated. Mr.

Speaker. is that I welcome the qu es­ tion from the honourable mem ber and I can advise him that - and I'm quoting from Page 28 - that we're in the process of establishing a study, and when we have comp leted the details. the parameters, etc., the honour able mem ber would be advised of that in for­ mation. I further went on to say that we're hoping to get certain in dividuals who will help us on this study, but we have not yet offi cially and forma lly establis hed the study yet.

I further stated, - the Mem ber for Fort Garry asked que stions about security and escapes. etc., etc., and whether his concern about security at Headi ng ley was what prom pted us to establish the inqu iry and I said to him that "I canno t confirm that, but I can advise the honourable mem ber that I spent a great deal of time this sum mer visiting all our correct ional in stitutions, including Headingle y, in cluding the Reman d Centre at Winnip eg and that I've had a great deal of conv ersa­ tion with staff, sen ior and mid dle managemen t and rank and file staff.

I've had many hours and days of discussions with various people in the corr ectional system and it has brought us to the conclusion that we shoul d have a com prehensive study." Then he asks a supp leme ntary que stion and so on, but the point is, Mr. Speaker, I concl uded we have had discus sions with an individual to engage in a study and that has not been finali zed or formaliz ed. When it has. I will be very pleased to gi ve the detail s to the honourable mem ber. Mr. Speaker, the fact is that even today we are still 53 having prel imi nary discussions.

We think we have an exc el lent in dividual in mind who can carry on a study, a study that is badly needed, and I think is a positive step. I wou ld hope the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Garry will co-operate with us when we conduct the study and gi ve us any in formation that he has and any concerns that he has. I hope he'll spend many hou rs with the group of people or whoever is in volved in this. But Mr.

Speaker, there's a procedure in Govern ment that the hono urable mem ber shoul d kno w full well, that before anything is final, before anything is estab­ li shed as a government body, that Minis ter inv olv ed mu st go to Treasury Board to get approval for the expenditu re of mone y, and then finally that has to be establis hed and agreed up on by Cabi net. Those steps, Mr. Speaker, have not been taken. They have not been taken and there is such a thin g as do ing some prelimi nary work before you can estab­ lish specific terms of refere nce before you -(I nter­ jec tion) - Mr. Speaker.

I would appreciate if the Hon ourable Mem ber for Pembin a wou ld qu ite his yakk ing . his yahoo remarks that he's good at and I'd appreciate your assi stance in this, because we on this side are getting sick and tired of in terruptions and these in terrup tions being allowed to be made without any interrup tion. Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate your assistance in bringing order and decorum to the Ho use from some of the yahoos from over on my right here, because that's all it is.

They think that they're serious about the busi ness of the Hous e and when they want an expla ­ nation they do n't permit the person who wants to gi ve the explanation in all si ncerity to do so. So no wonder the people that are li stening up here mu st think this is a big joke. because the big joke is right there. the Mem ber for Pembina, who keeps on interruptin g me. Mr. Speaker, we are engaged in a very positive step because we belie ve that there are certain probl ems that shou ld be overcome and we welcome, and we want, the assistance of the Mem ber for Fort Garry to help us overcome those prob lems.

But I say, Mr. Speaker -(I nterject ions )- MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please Order please. If there are mem bers present who want to hold their own private debate I will be most pleased to make Room 254 avail able and they can debate all the after­ noon. In the meantime, I'm having some diff icult y in hearing what the Hon ourable Min ister is saying. The Honourable Min ister of Com muni ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker. as I was explai ning, the individual and ind ividuals in volved have req uested that they seek out additional in formation in order to de li neate specific terms of refere nce that we mi ght be able to agree upon, so there are all ki nds of details that have to be worked out before you prepare any Ii nal set of refer ences. So, Mr.

Speaker, I rei terate, while there may have been some in formal un off icial discussions by certain people the fact is - and I advised my department again today in a discussion on this - that this can only be cons idered a formal study and it will only be gin offi­ cially when it is agreed to by the Cabi net of Manit oba. That has not yet occur red. We hope that this will be

7 December, 1982 expedited so that we can get on with the very im por­ tant study and, again, I trust the Mem ber for Fort Garry is going to he lp us on this in a very positive way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to supp ort my colle ague 's Motion of Privi lege to th is House, and certainly I th ink the people of Man itoba would expect full disclosur e of an action taken by the Mem ber for Br andon East and the Mi nis ter of Communi ty Affairs, somet hing that I thi nk has been a breach of privi lege of this Hous e and a breach of privile ge of the Prov in ce of Manit oba, and particu larly to those people of Br an­ do n, who deserve far mor e than a mem ber who would stand in this Hous e, stand here and barefaced tel l this Ass embl y that a comm ission, an inquir y in to the cor­ rectional in stitutions in this prov in ce, had not yet taken place when it is qu oted in the Free Press where one Mr .

Kamin ski said yeste rday he had already begun his work. I have two difficu lties, Mr . Speaker, either we have a Government who does not know how they're handl ing the pro vincial affairs of this province and the fu nds which they're giving to people to do work - that is certainly evident in the Financial Statement that was released today; the other, that the Memb er for Bran­ don East and the Minis ter of Corre ctional Institutes would try and have us bel ieve that he had not begun that work or spent that money. Mr .

Speaker, I made reference to the people of Brandon East because some few days ago there was one of the most outstanding celebra tions or fune rals, which I would consider a celebra tion, of a man who represented the Br andon area, in Walter Di nsdale. It paid tri bute to a man who would never, ever be caught do in g suc h a crimi nal thing in our prov in ce. We have a memb er from the same cit y, Mr . Speaker, who has the audacity to expect those people from that town to represent them in that way. Mr.

Speaker, I can only sugge st that foll owing on the resolution or the Motion of Privi lege, that the member not only resign or be removed from the Cabine t of this pro vince, but he res ign his seat so that a credible individual can replace him. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney -General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, it's bad enough to have made a serious allegation against a memb er of this House in whatever capacity, which I will point out in a minu te in my view is carelessly made, but when that pers on, a memb er of this House, rises to defend hi ms elf and has to face the kin d of he ckling which the Mi nis ter faced wh ile he was trying to make his case in defence is for eign, both to the ru les and precedents of this Hous e and to our whole concept of the admin is­ tration of justic e, it's a fou l, rotten thing to do.

It has been said that if you steal a person's pocket­ book you steal nothi ng, but if you rob that person of his reputation you take everything that a person has in terms of his credibil ity and his existence as a huma n bei ng. If you make that kind of charge you at least have the respon sibili ty of allo wing that person to fairly defend hims elf.

Now with respect to the motion itself, I am sur prised that the Mem ber for Fort Garry sh ould be so careless of his resp ons ibil ity to the House and to the mem bers of this Ho use to have made that motion, to have accused a mem ber of mi sleading the Ho use and pur ­ porting to base it on Hansard when Hansard is before him and Hansard speaks clearly as to the words clearly used and now clearly defended by the member. What did the memb er say?

The memb er said, and I'll start with the last point that he made - I sh oul d rem ind the memb er of the Opp osition that this is not a laugh­ ing matter when a memb er in this House is charged with mi sleading the House. You have gi ven this House an oppor tun ity to debate it; let it be debated on princi ple . The Mem ber for Br andon East stated, and the mem bers over there who have a mem ory longer than 12 months would remem ber, that before a Comm is­ sion of Inquir y of any kin d is officially establi shed and officially un der way it mu st, as the mem ber point ed out, come before Treasury Board.

It mu st, as the mem ber poi nted out, come before Cabi net. It is not pos si ble in the natur e of things to even begin that process without making some inqui ries as to the availabili ty of people, the parameters that are to be recommend ed, the len gth of the study, the cost of the study; all of those thin gs mus t be in vestigated.

It is not at all unu sual, and the member s kn ow this, to approach an individua l who has the kind of credi bil­ ity and status of Professor Kaminski and say, I'm going to be wanting to put this un der way; I'll have to get it approved, but I would like you to make some inquir ies as to the kin d of study that we will be making and how long you thi nk it will take. He mus t kno w those thin gs.

The Min ister mus t inf orm hi mself of those things before he can bring a recomm endation before Treasury Board, and partic ul arly in these days when every recommendation for the spending of a farthing is scrut in ized mi nu tely by Treasury Board, the Leader of the Opp osition to the contrary. - (I nterjec tion)- The Mem ber for Fort Garry says in an aside across the floor - well, I jus t want the mem ber to admit that it is under way.

But the ques tion which he put in the Hous e and which is a matter of record - will the member admit that it is already in place and un der way-a nd to that the Honour able Min ister of Commun - . ity Services said that the inquir y, that we are ho ping we will get certain in dividuals who will help us on the study, but we have not officially and forma lly estab­ lis hed the study yet. That was true with respect to every word and every syll able.

It was a careful true statement and to rise in the House and on the basis of that statement to accuse a memb er of this Hous e of mi sleading the House is careless in the extreme. 54 MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono u rable Member for Tur tle Mou ntain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr .

Speaker, it's in teresting to see how the Government House Leader in terpr ets the answers gi ven by the Member for Brandon East as somehow not mi sleading the House when clearly at the time the Mem ber for Fort Garry was not satisfied with the accu racy of the answers that were gi ven and contin ued to persist in placing the que stion before the Minis ter of Com muni ty Services and Correct ions to give him the opportunity to provide the Hous e with a

Tuesday, 7 December, 1982 straight answer. He asked, I believe, Mr. Speaker, on four di fferent occas ions - three occasions followi ng up the ini tial que stion to the Min ister of Corre ctions - was the inqui ry un der way? The Minis ter cont inue d to evade and avoid answering the qu estion and to lead this House to belie ve that ind eed the inqu iry was not un der way.

Now when this Ho use rose yesterday the un der­ standing that the mem bers had was that the inqu iry was not un der way and, Sir, I am certain that there are mem bers on the backbench of that government, if not in the min ds of the Cabi net, who went away thi nking that that inqui ry was not un der way. And if it wasn't, Sir, why would Mr. Kaminski say then that he has already begun work? Is that the type of govern ment that we have over there?

That, on the one hand, the Government Hous e Leader says nothing gets under way until it's been approved and carefu lly scrutin ized by the Treasury Board, the way it sh ould be done, or is the Min ister of Corrections off establishi ng com mis ­ sions without refere nce to his col leagues as appears to have been the case? And yesterday he di dn' t wish to admit that either to this House or to his col leagues, Sir. There was a day, in years past, when a Min ister who mi sled the Hous e would feel obl iged to resign as a consequence of mi sleading the House.

We find, Sir, there are many exam ples of it with this Government and it seems to be done without any type of care on the part of the mem bers oppos ite. This is the most recent case, Sir, and I sugge st that the reso lu tion which the Mem ber for Fort Garry has put forward has been well supp orted with evidence and deserves the supp ort of this House. We cannot have mem bers of the Treasury Bench making misl eading statements. MR . SPEAKE R: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Tho mpson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr.

Speaker, although I'm relatively new as a mem ber in this House, I'm getting qu ite used to hearing the slimy personal attacks com ing from mem bers opposite and this is no di fferent from the many they made during the fir st Session I sat in this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, I've got ears; I can lis ten. I've got eyes; I can read. The Min ister heard; it is recorded in Hans­ ard. I can advise him that we're in the process of establishing a study. So there was no attempt on the part of the Mi nis ter to deceive anybody in this House.

He made no reference, as the previous speaker did, to the fact that there was no study un der way. He said it qu ite cle arly that we were in the process of establis h­ ing a study and he also indi cated in Hansard, and it's recorded here, that he was qu ite will ing at the time that the study was establis hed to gi ve the details to the honourable mem ber now who is bri nging up this motion of privi lege. So, Mr. Speaker, I heard what was said yesterday. I've read what is in Hansard.

There was no attempt on the part of the Min ister to deceive anybody, and I sugge st we fin ish with these slimy personal attacks and get on with the busi ness of the provinc e. MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nou rable Leade r of 55 the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, contrary to the jun ior Mem ber for Thompson who just took his seat, this is not a slimy attack on an indi vidual.

Th is goes to affect the privi leges of this House, and as I said yesterday in my remarks on the Throne Speech, Sir, we've had far too many examp les in the last year of the lack of cred ibili ty of indi vidua l Min isters in this Govern ment across the way, and this is only another exam ple in this sord id un folding

chapter of a government that doesn't dare to tell the truth from time to tim e. The Mem ber for Fort Garry yesterday, Mr. Speaker, asked a very sim ple ques tion. He wanted to kno w whether this inqu iry - and he called it a secret inqui ry because there hadn't been any mention of it at all- was un der way; and he asked the que stion on a numb er of occasions and everybody's been very careful, Mr. Speaker, to say ah well, he got a firm and fixed answer. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, let's read back in to the record the final que stion when he was trying to elicit some statement from the Min ister to confirm the statements that he had been gi ven. This is on Page 29, "MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, one final suppl ement ary on this sub ject for today, Sir. Is the Min ister denying that Professor Len Kaminski has been ordered to report to him on the situa tion at Headingl ey Jail, in ternal, related to security, safety and adminis tration 'as qui ckly as possible?' HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the in di vidu al the honourable mem ber refers to is a ci tizen of Manit oba and I am in no positi on, as in deed , nor wou ld he be if he were in my posi tion, to order an indi vidual ci tizen in Manitoba to do thi s, that or any­ thing. So I'm not ordering any indi vidual, but as I said earlie r, Mr. Speaker, we have had dis cussions with an indi vidual to engage in a study and that has not been final ized or form alized. When it has, I'll be very pleased to give the details to the honourable mem ber." Now, Mr.

Speaker, as the Mem ber for Fort Garry said, all of CBC, all the media had to do was talk to Professor Len Kaminski and the Free Press obviously did that. In today's edition, Tuesday, the 7th of December of the Winnip eg Free Press the head line is, "Professor hired to study jai ls." Yes, that's the head­ lin e. "Co mmun ity Ser vic es Min ist er Len Evans " -( l nterject ion)- Mr.

Speaker, we were jus t treated to a lecture by the Attorney-G eneral of this provin ce who is il l-eq ui pped to tell mem bers of any free dem ocracy about behav­ iour or decorum in a Parliame nt, but we were jus t treated to a lecture by him about heck lin g. I want to tell the honourable mem ber that he can hec kle me all he wants because that's part of the ju ice of Parl iament and he, from his hard core left wing, can object to it all he wants but it will be carried on in this House and I don't object if he carries on with it.

But I don' t want to hear any lectur es from this ki nd of a person with his rather checkered polit ical backgr ound with respect, Mr. Speaker, to parliament ary decorum. -(I nter­ jection)- Why don' t I get on? Why don't you get on and clean up your act across the way? Here's what the Free Press said, Mr. Speaker, today: "Com mu nity Services Minister Len Evans has com­ mis sio ned a study in to overcrowd ing at Headi ngle y jail and at the Remand Centre in Winnip eg's Public Safety Buil ding.

7 Decem ber, 1982 "The study will be headed by Professor Leonard Kam in ski of the Un iversity of Manit oba's School of Social Work and a former officer of the John Howard Society of Manit oba. Kaminski said yesterday he has already begun work." Now, Mr. Speaker, this nons ense about statements not being in contr adiction to one another. If my ho nourable fr iend wants to stand up and say that Professor Kam inski was lying when he spoke to the Free Press, let him say so. But how can he then say, Mr. Speaker, that the in formation that he gave to the Hous e yesterday is true if Professor Kaminski isn' t lying?

Now one or the other is telling the truth and the purpose of this motion, Mr. Speaker, is to make sure that Govern ment Minis ters across the way for once, when they are asked que stions in this Ho use, will begin to try to tell the truth. Mr. Speaker, for the record, the Mem ber for Bran­ don East, Mick Bu rke's fr iend, the one who appoin ts his pol iti cal friends who have to get fired after the MG EA looks in to the appoi ntme nts - we kno w about his backgr ound - the one who makes other appoi nt­ ments that we're going to be talking about too, Mr. Speaker, he says it's all in Hansard.

I jus t read from Hansard . An ybody, excluding perhaps the Mem ber for Tho mp son, can read Hansard and anybody can read Hansard and see that the Min ister yesterday did not answer forthr ightly and with candour the que s­ tions. Professor Kaminski, when he was approached by the Free Press, obviously said, yes, I have been approached and I'm already at work. Now, Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this exercise is to find out who's tellin g the truth. From the evidence we've heard so far, it looks as though the Min ister isn' t. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Bran­ don West. MR. H. CARROLL: Mr.

Speaker, with the except ion of yourself, I wou ld lik e to perhaps thi nk of myself as probably the most objective person in the House. I lis tened with some in terest to the speech by the Attorney-General and, if I were sit ting in a judi ci al capacity, I would have to accept his semantic s and his argum ent because, in my view, technically there wou ld have to be an acqui ttal of Mr. Evans if he were in a court. Having said that however, as an Independent mem ber, I left the House yesterday th inki ng that there was no comm ission in existence and, Mr.

Attorney­ Gene ral, I mu st say that as an Independent mem ber I was left and the Min is ter left me with a di stinc t idea that there was nowhere near the progress made in terms of that com mi ssion, as I learned today that there was. I was astounde d this morn ing and yes , in deed, I felt mi sled. Mr. Speaker, I would say that Mr. Evans, techn ically, is not in breach of privile ge of the House, but I feel mi sled. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, it seems a bit chi ldis h and ridicu lous, the exercise that's going thro ugh at this time when there are so many im portant thi ngs to do. Mr. Speaker, here we are without any proof, without the person in que stion here to qu estion or to gi ve us his side of it, without anybody from the media. We are acting as prosecutor, as jud ge, and of course there's an awful lot of name-calling and that is qu ite ridiculous and I don't th ink it's worthy to spend the time of this House on a thing like this. Mr.

Speaker, first of all, what is the im portance - I know I am going to be told that somebody, and I'll come to that about the mi slead ing part - if a comm is­ sion is started or is not started? Is that going to stop the world? That's numb er one. Now they mi ght say, well, it's a qu est ion of principle and I agree with that. -(I nterjec tion)- Mr. Speaker, no, I don't mi ss the point and I'll tell you, if you li sten, the point is this, that a que stion was asked. The Min ister said that, all right, he di dn' t try to say there is nothing to it at all. The mem bers talk about. it's a great thi ng.

You kno w, he di scovered some earth-shatter ing news. There is a secret, what did he call it? An inqui ry un der way. Well, first of all, the people across and the mem ber that made this accusation kno w exactly the steps that have to be taken. I thi nk he kno ws that you have to have an Order -in -Council before the setup, before anybody could be paid. I thi nk that usually is di sc ussed in Cabi net and in Treasury. That wasn't done. There are no Min utes and that wasn't done at any time. The first time that I heard of that was yesterday and I am not the only one, I checked with some of my colleagues.

Now, all of a sudden, what is printed in the paper becomes a fact. That will decide if a man sh ould resign and the accusation, which is not worthy of mem bers of this House - no wonder the people do not respect us when we don' t respect each other. We are always im plying motiv es to each other and we're ready to jump at anything even when we kno w it's a big jok e, to try to take a man's reputation, as was mentione d before. I unde rstand there cou ld have been a mi sun ­ derst anding, but sh ould we waste all the time here.

You kn ow, you don't jus t pass an Order -i n-Cou ncil and then go and ask the person, will you act? You have to sound that person out, you have to find out if he wants to do it, if he has the time, if he's in terested and that is exactly what the Min ister did. He told him. He told us repeatedly that he told him, and his Deputy Min ister in formed him, that of course it looked good; he thought that he cou ld put it through, but it had to go to Cabi net.

Now does that stop - ask any one of you, if · you 're going to be honest - if you 're asked by some­ body to do something and you're interested, does that prevent you from trying to find out what it's all about, to inqu ire? Isn't that the normal thing to do? Isn't that what everyone here would do? 56 The thing is, let him come back and say that he was paid for the time that he spent so far.

Let anybody come back and show us that they have a copy of the Order -i n-Council that was passed authorizing that; not that the Mi nis ter who qu ite cand idly stated that yes, fi ne, he was thinki ng about it, but he couldn 't. He certainl y di dn' t order anybody and that had not gone to Cabi net. That's what he said and that was very plain.

And all of a sudden a mem ber who think s that he di scovered somet hing very im portant, you kn ow, this stu ff, if that's going to make anybody do his work here of trying to find out and having the spies - that's the way they run it in Ru ssia and you' re always accusing us of those kind of methods, of trying to get that informa tion, and that's not the first time this kind of

7 December, 1982 accusation or this kin d of thi ng has been done - if anybody th ink s this is a feather in his hat, let him. I'm certainly not going to get excited over anything lik e that at all. I thi nk that anybody that's got a bit of honesty and a bit of si ncerit y could understand that maybe. like the Memb er for Br andon who says that he mi ght have been misund erstood or mis led. That's possible, but there's a big difference, Mr. Speaker, by li sten ing to somebody, getting the wrong meanin g and asking him to res ign and call in g him a crook, a liar and all the kind of accusations we've had today.

That is certainly not worthy of mem bers of this Hous e. I thi nk let's have a damn vote and let's get out of here with dign ity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Pembi na. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. The Min ­ ister of Health has indica ted that this debate is chil­ dish, that this debate has no pu rpose, that this debate is wasting the time of the Ho use wh en, as the Mini ster says. there are so many im portant issues at stake.

Wel l, I ask you, Sir, and I ask the people of Man itoba, what is more im portant than the consideration of whether a Min ister, a front benc h Minis ter of a Government is giving factual and correct inf ormation or whether that Mi nis ter is attempting to mis lead the House and the people of Manitoba? I bel ieve that we are living in a democracy and I even bel ieve the Attorney-G eneral kn ows we are li ving in a democracy, and in a democr acy truth is of the utmost concern.

And when we pose very simp le questions to Min isters of the front bench and we get evasive, mi s­ leading answers from those Min isters, should we not attemp t, as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, to pur sue the truth and to attempt to bring to Manit obans the facts as to how this Treasury Bench of this Govern­ ment is carrying on the affairs of this provi nce? I sug gest that this is not a childish debate, that the pursuit of truth is never childish in a democracy.

It may be in some cou ntrie s with a different politi cal organization, but in a democracy suc h as Canada the pursuit of truth should be utmo st in each and every min d, and to declare this debate childis h is to demean the democratic process and what we are all here elected to do. Now, if we are wasting time in trying to fin d out what the truth is, then does that mean that we stand up, ask questions and receive any sort of an answer from mem bers of the Treasury Benc h and accept them as being nothing but the truth? That, Sir, we cannot do. That has been demons trated in the last Session.

That same Min ister. when he had the respons ibili ty for the Telephone System, gave me two different answers on two different occas ions to the same que stion; he did not tell the truth last Sess ion. This is not the fi rst time we have questioned in fo rmation from the Min ister of Commun ity Services and Corrections. So I thi nk this debate is very worthwhile. Mr. Speaker, there is nothing more clear than the Minis ter's answer s. that we have not offi cially and formally establis hed the study.

If that is true, as my Leader has said, then Professor Leonard Kaminski is tellin g a lie to the Free Press reporter who wrote this story. Now, the Attorney -General says not at all. Maybe he 57 has a different concept of truth that he mig ht share with us at a later date, because to me that does not indi cate that both the Min ister and Professor Kaminski are telling the truth. I look forward to fur ther contribu­ tions from the Attorney-G eneral on what his version of truth is. MR. SPE AKER: The Honour able Memb er for Spri ngfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I've lis tened with in terest to the contributions from both sides, particu­ larly the Mi nis ter of Com muni ty Services on this qu es­ tion. I, too, was unc ertain as to exactly what the status of Mr . Kaminski was until I heard from the Mi nis ter this afternoon. However, I did not jump to the conclusion that mem bers opposite jump ed to yesterday. The Min ­ ister said - the Member for Arthur sugge sts I was misl ed - I said only that I was not certain and that un certainty does not giv e me grou nds to make an ir responsible accusation against the Min ister.

Now, maybe - and I'll conce de this point willin gly to mem bers opposite - that the Minis ter may have con­ trib uted to that unc ertainty by not prov iding all of the details that he had no authority to provide yesterday and he won't have that authority until an Order -in­ Council is passed. Let's look at the options that were really available to the Mi nis ter yesterday. He was asked, is somet hing happening? He replied, we're in the process of making it happen. We are in the process of establishing a study. That was his reply. ls someone sug gesting that that reply was inaccur ate?

The Mi nister has stood up today and confirme d that. He hasn't changed that in any way, shape or form. He says, we will be going to Treasury Board. We will be going to Cabine t to get an Or der-in-Cou ncil passed. That's his respon sibili ty. Nothing wrong with that rep ly. Now we fin d that the electr onic media and the print media have in formation from an individual who was named by the Member for Fort Garry yesterday, Pro­ fessor Kamins ki, that says he's already begun work. Now I'm un certain, as is the Memb er for Brandon West and as was the Mem ber for Fort Garry.

I'll con cede the point, but then the Mi nis ter of Com mun ity Services got up and answered the only que stion up on which this Point of Privi lege is based, the only que stion. and that qu estion is: how can Professor Kaminski be work ing if the process has not been formally estab­ lis hed; and he got up and he said he is do ing the in itial preparatory work, probably costi ng, prel imi nary, whatever it is, setting the parameters and the details. That's what the Min ister said, that certain prelimi nary work had to be done. Okay? That's what he's told the House.

He's explai ned the difference between what appears in the new;:,paper and what some of us heard on the radio and telev ision this morn ing, and the statement that the Memb er for Fort Garry made yesterday. Now, I bel ieve that was the purpose of this debate, to giv e the Minis ter an oppor tun ity to exp lain, to answer an allegation by the Memb er for Fort Garry, that the in formation he gave yesterday was in some way inco rrect. He's gi ven that expl anati on. Mr . Speaker, I would submit that, having gi ven that expla­ nation, he's provided substantive proof to this House:

7 December, 1982 (1) that there was no point of privi lege; (2) that he repl ied accu rately yesterday; and (3) he's provided us with the in format ion which appeared in yesterday's Hansard as well, that prese ntly some work is going on which relates to the compl etion of the det ails, the parameters, etc. So, Mr . Speaker, I submit, as I did earlier, the mem ber had a legiti mate qu estion to ask the Min ister. He cou ld well have asked for those fur ther details du ring que stion period, rather than through this debate, but sin ce he raised it this way it was a legiti­ mate que stion.

He's had a proper and legitima te answer and, Mr. Speaker, I would sugge st to the mem ber that the only honourable thing he can do at this point is withd raw his motion now that he's had his answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, if nobody else wis hes to speak, I will clo se the debate on this substantive moti on. MR. SPEAKER: There appears to be none. The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to acknow­ ledge the contributions of all those on both si des of the Hous e who have partici pated in this debate and, in particu lar, thank my colle agues, my Leader and the Honour able Member for Brandon West who have spoken from the perspective of the im portance of in tegrity, truth and ho nour on the Treasury Benc hes of the Government of this Province. Sir, there seems to be a double standard at work here.

A numb er of speakers from the Government benches have made reference to the fact that the Mi n­ ister of Communi ty Services and Correc tions appar­ ently was hog-tied in terms of making a defin itive decision or a defi ni tive annou ncement on this appoi nt­ ment of Professor Kam in ski in the establis hment of this inquir y because he had to go through the process of Treasury Board, he had to go through the process of obtainin g an Order-in-Cou ncil, having it passed by Cabi net, and he had to deal with all the machi ner y of Governme nt.

The Honour able Government House Leader, the Attorney-G eneral, has raised that point, the Honou rable Mi nis ter of Health raised that point, and others have raised that poin t. Mr. Speaker, I wish the Minis ter of Agricultur e were here.

Let us jus t address for one mom ent the fact that the Min ister of Agricu ltu re gr anted forgiveness on somet hing lik e - what was it? - $400,000 worth of loans out in the marketplace through the Beef Marketing Plan without benefit of Order -in -Cou ncil, without benefit of any kind of those processes or mech anics in Cabine t, in Treasury Board , or an ywhere else in a formal sense, and annou nced it, Sir .

All we're askin g is that when the Min ister of Com­ muni ty Services and Corr ections, deal ing with a sub ­ ject as im portant as the major, the senior, correct ional facil ity in this provi nce advise this House and advise the people of Manit oba when he is lau nching an inquir y and an in vestigation in to the conditions in exis tence at that facili ty because we are aware, I am 58 aware, Sir, I belie ve the Minister is aware, many Man­ itobans are aware of rather questionab le, rather serious conditions at that facil ity.

I will have consi derable to say about that, and was going to say something about it when we reached the Estimates of the Mini ster of Corr ections. However, at the fi rst opportun ity, I wanted to raise the qu estion as to whether he had in itiated this inquir y, and why he hadn't annou nced it, why he hadn't made it public, because I have in formation, and I repeat and reiter ate, Sir , that I have inf or mation that ind icated to me that inquir y got un der way approxim ately Novem ber 15 th.

I'm full y prepared to accept the word as reported in the media and as conveyed to me by various mem bers of the media and some of my other in formants close to the Headingle y Jail situation that such is the case. So, Sir, let us jus t stop for one moment and exam ine the que stion of what kin d of double standards are at pl ace here when colle agues of the Mini ster rush to his defense in an ind efens ible position. This is defen din g the in defensible. We're asking for straight answers.

All we're asking from this Gove rnme nt, because God kno ws they're not able to supply mu ch else to Manit o­ bans, all we're asking from them is to come clean. We expect every day in question period, and every day in debate in this House, and I th ink the taxpayers, the ci tizens and voters of Manit oba have a God-g iven right to expect that they come clean. If they come clean and answer honestly and truthfu lly they will find that the ir dif ficu lties and their traumas through this Session and succeed ing Sessions will be a lot lig hter, a lot easier to bear than is otherwise going to be the case. So, Mr.

Speaker, don't let the Minis ter of Health stand up and ration alize in defense of the Mi nis ter of Co mmuni ty Services on the grounds that this is a waste of time. Seek ing the truth, seek ing ho nour , seek ing in tegrity is never a waste of ti me. Perhaps I'm talking to the wrong Min ister . I may be talking to the wrong Min ister when I talk of truth, honour and in teg­ rity, but I address those remarks to him in the hope that they will fall upon his ears with some sense of princi ple. Mr.

Speaker, another thing that is very surprising and di stu rbing to us in the Opposition is that the Fir st ·Min ister of this prov inc e sh ould not enter this di scus­ sion either to offer, if one can be offered, some sor t of expla nation of the conduc t of his Minis ter or to stand up for the very th ings that my Leader and this side of the House have been standing up for, and that is candor, admis sions, honesty and ho nour.

Why wou ld the Fi rst Minis ter of the House, the Fi rst Mi nis ter of this prov in ce sit through this debate in si lence and have nothing to say, either in defense of his Mi nis ter or in defense of the principle that is at issue here. I th ink that's a serious condemnation of the attitude that Govern ment takes, Sir , towards the principle of honesty and truth in debate and argume nt. We've seen evidence of this before, and now, we're seei ng it again in the fi rst three days of the new Ses­ sion, this fled gling Govern ment 's second Sess ion.

Having fallen in to traps of evasiveness of their own construction in their fi rst Sessi on, they now appear to be stu mbling blindl y in to the same cou rse of action in the second Sess ion. They are headed for ru in and devastation - so is the province, incid entally- but they,

Tuesday, 7 December, 1982 in particu lar, are headed for ruin and devastation if they persist in that course, Mr. Speaker. I asked the Min ister for an an swer to a que stion because I think there was a subseq uen t le gitima te follo w-up que stion that the people of Manitoba had a right to kno w the answer to, and my follow-up qu es­ tion was going to be: Why? Why would he get on with the job of appointing and establishing this inqu iry and not tell the people of Man itoba about it? I have suspi­ ci ons as to why, but those will surface during debate, no doubt, and I in tend to debate tho se with him.

I think, frankly, that the Mini ster has been hun g out to dry. I don't kno w who he's trying to protect or defend because I can assure him that I think there's consid er­ able evidence that nobody is trying to protect or defend him. In fact, although he probably regards me as an adversary, I want to say to him, Mr. Speaker, thr ough you, Sir, that I bel ieve thr ough the ini tiatives that I took this fal l in writing to the Min ister about the sit uation at Heading ley that I probably was protect ing him and defending him better than some of those on whom he relies.

I bel ieve he's been hung out to dry, and I bel ieve that a proper in vestigation of the situation at Heading­ ley will reveal that. I'm not saying that the Minister is to bl ame for that; one is hardly to blame for the fact that he or she is hun g out to dry. The only thing that the Min ister is to blame for is fai lin g to answer that qu es­ tion yesterday so that we cou ld get on with this job of finding out what's wrong at the up per level of the Correct ions Di vision, what's wrong at the up per level of Adult Corr ections, and what's wrong in Headingle y itself. So, Mr.

Speaker, I concl ude by reiterat ing my si ncerity in seek ing the truth about the difficu lties at Heading ley Jail: my sinc erity in fir st approach ing the Min ister last Aug ust in the wake of the Hoffman­ Baptiste escape attempt and the first reports that I got on circu mstances in the jail; the si ncerity in my que s­ tions yesterday which were aimed at getting at the terms of refere nce of this inqui ry which I think had to be terms of reference that sup port the Min ister and supp ort the in tentions of any Min ister of Correct ions to ensu re a proper security system in this provi nce; and my si ncerity in moving the Motion of Privi lege which was seconded by my col league, the Hono ura­ ble Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek.

I concl ude, Sir, by asking this Min ister in future, and hi s col leagues, because we'll have many further qu es­ tions on this and other sub jects, to come clean. By com ing clean in their answers they can stay out of troubl e. QUESTION put, MOTION defeated MR . SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Turtle Moun tain. MR . B. RANSOM: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the mem bers. Order please.

The que stion before the Hous e, it has been moved by the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Garry and seconded by the Ho nou rable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek, THAT this Hous e do cens ure the Minis ter of Com- 59 muni ty Services and Correct ions for a serious breach of its privi leges by mi sleading its mem bers in the mat­ ter of the establi shment of an inqu iry into conditions at Headi ngley Jail. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follo ws: YEAS Messrs. Banman, Blake, Brown, Downey, Driedger, Filmo n, Gou rlay, Gr aham, Mrs. Hammo nd, Messrs.

Hyde, Joh nsto n, Ko vnats, Lyon, Manness, McKenzie, Mercier, Nor dman, Mrs. Ol eso n, Messrs. Orchard, Ransom, Sherman, Steen. NAYS Messrs. Adam, Anstett, Asht on, Buck laschuk, Car­ ro ll, Cor rin, Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dod ick, Mr. Doern, Ms. Dolin, Messrs. Evans, Eyler, Fox , Hara­ piak, Harper, Mrs. Hemp hill, Messrs. Kostyra, Lecuyer, Parasiuk, Pawley, Penner, Ms. Phillip s, Messrs. Ploh­ man, Santos, Sch roeder, Scott, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Storie, Uskiw. MR. ACTING CLERK, G. Mackintosh: Yeas, 22, Nays, 30. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is accordingly lost. The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mount ain.

ORAL QUESTIONS Appointments - Brandon University MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is for the Min ister of Com mun ity Services and Correct ions. Was the Min ister of Commun ity Services and Correc­ tions involved in the appointme nts to the Board of Governors of the Brandon Un iversity made since November 30th, 19 81 ? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mini ster of Com­ muni ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, as a Mem ber of the Cabine t, lik e all other Cabine t Ministers, one is in volved. MR . B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister of Com mun ity Services, did he specifically make recommendations with respect to appoi ntments to the Board of Governors of Brandon Univ ersity? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, there is a process inv olv ed in seekin g out names for all kin ds of Boards and Comm issions and I, along with my col leagues, share in that process. MR . B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, is the Min ister of Communi ty Services and Correct ions prepared to acknowledge that the admin istration of Brandon Uni ­ versity has now been cast into di sarray because of the NOP appointme nts to the Board of Governors and are becom ing inv olved in admin istrative details of the

7 December, 1982 un iversity rather than dealin g with issues of policy as they should be? HON. l. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask you, is that que stion in order? The me m ber asked me a qu est ion pertainin g to another min istry and I belie ve that qu es­ tion is wrongly dir ected. I seek your guid ance, Sir. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono ur able Attorney-G eneral. HON. R. PENNER: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, a qu estion wh ich is sim ply a rheto rical que s­ tion cal lin g for an opin ion is not a que stion which is in order.

A question mu st be dir ected to a Min ister with respect to in fo rmation obtained by that Mi nis ter or kno wn to that Min ister in his capacity as a Minis ter but it is out of order if it si mply cal ls, rhet orically as that one did, for a statement of opinio n or to adopt an opinion, queer as it mi ght have been, of the que stioner. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Elm­ wood on the same poi nt. MR. R. DOERN: On the point of order, I belie ve it is appropr iate to di rect a qu estion to a Min ister for a portf olio for wh ich he is responsibl e.

In this case that que stion sh ould have been dir ected to the Min ister of Educ ation. Clearly you'r e not going to dir ect qu es­ tions on agricultur e to the Min ister of Health and que stions of health to the Min ister of Agricultur e. MR. SPEAK ER: To the same poin t of order, the Honou rable Memb er for Tur tle Mou ntain. MR. A. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I am qu ite prepared if the Min ister of Communi ty Services and Corrections is not prepared to take resp onsibi li ty for the appoi nt­ ments wh ich he has recomm ended and I'll dir ect my qu estion to the Min ister of Educ ation.

Is the Mi nis ter of Educ ation satisfied that the admin istration of Bran­ don Un iversity is being carried out at a com petent level now that her NOP appoi ntees are becom ing in volved in day-to-day adminis trative detail? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Min is ter of Educ ation. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I mu st say that I'm having some di fficu lty un derstanding what the prob­ lem is.

We have a Board of Governor s that is sim ply doing their job, and as I have stated on many occa­ sions and as have the memb ers opp osite, we sh ould stay out of the busi ness of Boards of Governors who are carrying out their responsibil ities. We made changes to the Board of Governors, Mr . Speaker, for very defin ite reasons; made changes in the kin d of representat ion and the kind of people who were sit ting on the Board of Governors and I wi ll explai n what they were. There are about 16 mem bers on the Board of Governors and we made five of those appointm ents, Mr . Speaker.

We incr eased the nu mber of student representation and we incr eased the numb er of Senate representat ion. In each of those cases the students and the Senate selected their own mem ber ahd I'm qu ite sur e are very capable of selec ting the best people to represent them on a Board of Governors. 60 We also appoi nted two Native representatives to the Brandon Univ ersity and I'm sur e the memb ers oppo­ site wi ll un derstand the reasons for that.

Br andon Un iversity del ivers almost all of the majority of the Native educ ation programs in univer sitie s in the Pro­ vi nce of Manitoba but the Native popula tion had no representation on that Board of Governors, Mr. Speaker. We appoi nted Mr. Bill Thomas who is Ch airman of the Manitoba Indian Education Associa­ tion and Superint endent of the Pegui s School Board . We appoi nted Isaac Beau lie u, former Ed ucative Dir ector of the Native Council of Canada and Chair­ man of the Sandy Bay School Board . Both men are recog ni zed as Native leaders in their com mun ity.

The nu mber of changes that were made, Mr. Speaker, actually bring Br andon Un iversity representat ion for student and faculty and memb ers of the communi ty more in li ne and make them consis tent with the representation and numb ers that are on the other Board of Governors. What I want to ask the mem bers opposite is why they are so upset about the demo­ cratic process in this in stance when they are cal ling out for supp ort for democr acy when we were arguing the other issue earlier. Boards of Governors and School Boards often don't agree.

The in dividuals are there and they put forward their feel in gs and the ir attitudes and the ir positions and, as we kno w from the press that we've had over problems and di ffi cultie s that school boards are hav­ ing re solvi ng issues, that they often have a very dif fi­ cult time dealing with very, very di ffi cul t decisions and issues. They get their inf ormation from the best places they can. They get it from Senate. from Facul ty, from Admin istration.

They make the best decisions they can and the Board of Governors at Br andon is oper at­ ing in the same way as are other boards and I supp ort their conti nuing work. MR. B. RANSOM: A supple mentary que stion, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Mi nis ter then, what is the problem at Br andon Univ ersity? Why are the affairs of Br andon Un iversity bei ng splattered across the air waves of the provi nce and the front pages of the newspapers of the province? What is the problem? MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. Order please. I'm hav­ ing some difficu lty in hearing the Mi nis ter's reply.

The Honou rable Min ister of Educ ation. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speaker, I am not sur e what the problem is either at Br andon Un iversity because what they're going through is no di fferent than what any other board is going through and they are not having the ir di fficu lties in making decisions spl ashed across the media. Mr. Speaker, there was one issue that I under stand was an issue related to the li brary at the Brandon Un iversity and there was a recomm endation from the Senate and there was a reco mm endation from the Adm in istration. Those two recomm endations were not the same.

That is not un usual in sit uations like this where Facul ty and Adminis tration and Senate and Students all partici pate in decisions that are made about the ir un iversity. Because the Senate and the Adm in istration could not agree, the Board was put in the position of having to make a decision between the

Tuesday, 7 December, 1982 two recommend ations and their decision was that they accepted the recom mendation of the senate. I have worked with many Admin istr ators over the years, Mr. Speaker, and so have the mem bers oppo­ site. Jus t because a Deputy Min ister or a President makes a reco mm endation to a Minister or a Govern­ ment does not mean that it is always accepted because we have to gather in formation from other than admi nistration to make our decisions. They gathered the inf ormation from the places they should have received it; they made a tough decision and they are doing their job. MR. B.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General has said that the problem at Brandon Un iversity is Dr . Perk ins, the President of the Un iversity of Br andon. Does the Mi nis ter of Education concur with that view put forward by the Attorney -General? Mr . Speaker, if there are no problems at Br andon Un iversity why has Cam Conn or , a wel l-kno wn mem ber of the NDP resigned from his position as an Admin istrator at the Univ ersity of Brandon? HON. M. HEMP HILL: Mr . Speaker, I would imagine that to get an answer to that que stion, they wou ld have to ask the gentleman. Abortion Clinic MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for St. Norb ert MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion to the Attorney -General. Mr. Speaker, could he inf orm this House as to whether he supp orts or is in favour of expanded abortion facili ties in Manit oba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney -General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I have made state­ ments with respect to my position as an Attorne y­ General. In terms of the proposal of Dr . Mor gentaler, I don't feel it necessary to expand beyond that.

What I have said to various group s who have contacted me, and I have no hesita tion in repeating in this Hous e, and that is, that those who feel that there is a need for additions to such services should operate within the law. I have said that to groups who have lobb ied me with respect to psychia tric services in terms of their lobbying. I have said that to many groups who have come to me about various problems and point ed out to them the way in which, as communi ty gr ou ps, they can make their in flue nce felt.

That is what I have said to those who have chal lenged me with respect to my legal and constit utional position as Attorney-G ener al, that there is a way of achievi ng thin gs within the law; there are ways of achieving thi ngs outs ide of the law. I wou ld recomme nd that, if they have a goal, that they acheive it in side the law. The way to do that is to gather data, to gather statistics, to make representa­ tions and to lobby. That has been my position clearly and consistently thr oughout. It remains my position today. MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Attorney­ General, does he su ppor t or favour any changes lo the 61 Criminal Code of Canada which would remove in whole or in part the present rest rictions on abortions? HON. R. PENNER: I do not think that qu estion is in order. My views with respect to what should be in the crimi nal law is a matter of personal convi ction, is a matter for debate outside this Hous e, which I am wil­ ling to partici pate with anyone at any time. The law that is presently on the books is a federal law. It has been introduced some years ago.

If there's to be a change in that law, it wou ld be made at the federal level . The position with respect to myself and my party is well known. I have taken a position on this issue as the Attorney-General, as I've said, and in response to the earlier qu estion, it is clear - and of course it is clear that they don't lik e that fact - it is with in my constitu­ tional prerogatives. It is clear that they don' t lik e that fact.

They wou ld lik e the Attorney -Gener al, somehow or other, to fudge the issue so they can make polit ical capital out of the mi sery and concern on both si des of the issue of thous ands and thou sands of ho nest Man­ itobans who di ffer on matters of polic y. To attempt to make pol itical capital out of that is cheap. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the Attorney-General's quo ted statements that he wou ld prosecute Dr.

Morgentaler because he would be un der pres sur e to prosecute - that was in the Win­ nip eg Free Press, November 1s t, 19 82 - and in the Winnip eg Free Press on December 1s t, '82, that the Crown may choose to press char ges after complaint, Mr. Speaker, wou ld the Attorney-General today give an un dertak ing to this House that he will carry out his statutory responsibi li ties in accordance with his Oath of Office and not in accordance with his own personal viewpoints? MR. SPEA KER: The Honou rable the Attorn ey­ General. HON. R. PENNER: I have ju st made that statement twice.

It's one thing to be dense; it's another thing to be hard of heari ng. That can be cu red. A MEMBER: He's written out his ques tions. HON. R. PENNER: I kn ow he wrote them out, you see, and he couldn't change at the last moment. I need no lessons from any pi psqueak in this House about con­ stitutiona l dut ies. I am proud of the way I have con­ du cted myself as Attorney -Gener al, and when the tim e comes when any lit tle wet hen can point a finger at me and say that I have not acted within the dut ies and resp onsibil ites of the office, that will be the time to level such criticism .

My posit ion has been clear, and that's what they don' t lik e, certainl y. As I have said, if anyone opens up a cl in ic, or does anythin g that is prima facie ille gal, the law will take its normal cour se. I have also said, and I've said it cle arly, that I will not stay prose cutions. I have also said that in my view there is no legal position which would allow an Attorney-G en eral to gr ant someth ing cal led an immuni ty.

I have quo ted the authorit y of the Manitoba Cour t of Appeal which goes back to a decision on the Bill of Rig hts in 16 88, that in deed if an in dividual hold­ ing the office had the right in a class of cases to say

Tuesday, 7 Decernb!'lr, 1982 that they would or would not prosecute, or do so by the back door of gr anting immuni ty or stays of prose­ cution, then we wou ld have not the rule of law but the rule of persons, and I do not adhere to that position at all. I belie ve in the rule of law. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, would the Attorne y­ General table in this Legislature, for the inf ormation of mem bers, the corre spon dence he has had with Dr. Morgentaler? HON. R. PENNER: I do not bel ieve that it is a docu­ ment that shou ld be tabled in the House. I will gl adly send the Member for St.

Norber t copies of that cor­ respondence. In fact that correspondence, as he knows, is already a matter of public record. Quarterly Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Tur tle Mou ntain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, it is qui te evident today, on the basis of inf ormation provided in the quar terly report, that the Gove rnment is going to be expending more funds than have been autho rized by this Legisla tur e. I would lik e the assur ance of the Minis ter of Fi nance - and I ask him for this assurance, Mr.

Speaker - that the author ity for the addition al expend itur e which will be req uir ed will in fact be sought by a Sup pleme ntary Supply Bill in this Session before we adjourn prior to Ch ristmas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Fi nance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, that authorit y is not requir ed prior to Ch ristmas. Any authority which will be requir ed will be asked of the Leg islatur e before the time for the funding being requir ed is here. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'm very ple ased to have that answer from the Min ister of Fina nce.

I ju st want to make certain that I und erstand what he said. Will he gi ve the assurance that his Government then will not be passing any spec ial warrants for expendi­ tu res that are already kno wn to be up com ing? Will he give the assurance that they will not pass any special warrants between the rising of this sitti ng and the recalling of the Leg islatur e in Februa ry or Jan uary, whenever it might be? HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Mr . Speaker. I can check the record and see what the previous Conser vative Gove rnment did several years ago with respect to Spec ial Warrants when they had a fall Session MR.

SPEAK ER: Or der please. Order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: when they had a fal l Session and then reconvened several months later. I mu st say, however, at the present time - and we did pass a Special Warrant about a week and a half ago I belie ve, that Cabine t di d - and I don' t kno w of any fu nding that is req uir ed at this time. I'm not saying though that we would not pass a special warrant before we come back. 62 Foreign borrowings MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , to the Min ister of Fina nce. Did the Minis ter of Finan ce seek advice from Mr.

Saul Cherniack, former NDP ML A and present Chair man of Hydr o, with respect to for eign borr ow­ in gs at any time si nce the 30th of November 19 81? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I can say that I didn 't seek advice in the sense that I went to see Mr. Cherniack, but I do have a press release her e dated April 21s t, 19 78, issued by the then Premier, the Member for Char leswood, when a $57.5 milli on bond issue was sold in Switzerland and he said, "We are particu larly encou raged to have such a very good rate of in terest," the Premier declared.

I jus t thought that should be on the record after some of the statements - some of the vicious statements - that the Leader of the Opp osition made when we were borro wing some money recently. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge that the Min ister of Fi nance is un der no oblig ation to answer que stions which are placed to him, but on the chanc e that perhaps he di dn' t un derstand the ques­ tion I'll pl ace it once again.

Did the Min ister seek advice from Saul Cherniack, former NDP ML A and presently Chair man of Manitoba Hydro, with respect to for eign borro wings at any time sin ce November 30, 19 81? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I have sought advice from many indi vidu als with respect to borrow­ ing. I have talked with Saul Cherniack, yes, in deed, I have talked with him a nu mber of ti mes. But I have not, as I thought I had said, if I di dn't say it I'll put it in di fferent words, I have talked with Mr. Cherniack. Mr.

Cher niack has dis cussed borrow ings with me, I don' t recall going to him to get that advice, but certainly we've talked about it and I don't belie ve that there are many people in the his tory of Man itoba, in deed I can't think of any, who served this provinc e better as a Fi nance Minis ter. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, that last statement will no doub t be debated in this House on the basis of the hundr eds of mil lions of dollar s that the taxpayers have had to pay out as a conse qu enc e of for eign borro wing. If the Min ister of Fi nance did not seek out Mr. Cherniack's advice, did Mr .

Chern iack then approach the Min ister and ask for the oppor tun ity to go to Switzerland? HON. V. SC HROEDER: Well, Mr . Speaker, it seems that the memb er has the same problem as the Mem ber for St. Nor bert. He's got these qu estions written out and it doesn't matter what answer one gi ves to a pre­ vious que stion, he has to ask his thr ee qu estio ns. He's asked them; I have answered them. Low Income Housing - Sprague MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter respo nsible for Housing. For a numb er of

7 December, 1982 years. a low in come housing construction project has been operating in Sprague, which is in Southe ast Manitoba. The project consists of buildin g ready-to­ move homes for people who qual ify for it. The Minis ter in the last days has been flaunting his achie vements regard ing housing programs and job creations. Can the Min ister in dicate why they're sh utting down the project in Sprague? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker. I am not aware of the cir cu mstances su rrou nding this.

Perhaps, if the honour able memb er wou ld offer me further in forma­ tion or perhaps he could see me after que stion period and giv e me the in forma tion. I'm not famil iar with the situation as he's exp ressed it. Headingley Jail - study re conditions MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr . Speaker. my qu estion is to the Honour able Min ister of Corrections and I would ask him when we may expect, not by excruciatingly extracted answer but by Min isterial Statement in this Hous e, an annou ncement that an inquir y is being un dertaken in to conditions at Heading ley Jail? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Com­ mu ni ty Services. HON. L. EVANS: In due course, Mr . Speaker. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker. si nce that inquir y is already un der way, when can we expect the Min ister to announc e, by way of Min isterial Statement in this House, what his terms of reference are? Mr.

Speaker, can the Min ister advise this House whether he has established terms of reference for that inquir y with the in vestigator, Professor Kam inski, and whether the members of this Leg islatur e rep resent ing 57 constituencies in Manitoba will have access to those terms of reference to determine whether the inquir y is viable and worthwhile or whether it is merely a repetition of some thing he's already done? HON. L. EVANS: Mr . Speaker, we made this very clear yesterday, that we were in the process of establishing the study.

When we have final ized the terms of refer­ ence, the extent of the study, when we fin aliz e all the details and we are satisfied; I, as the Min ister, am satisfied on the cou rse that we should be foll owing. It will be presented to the Treasury Board and then to the Cabine t and when Cabi net fi nally approves of it, it will be annou nced and will be made public to the member opposite, to the Legis lature and to the people of Manitoba. I have ind icated this yesterday and I'm merely repeating what I've said to the memb er yesterday. MR . L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Min ister confirm that a review was carried out between Augus t and October by his department in volving the College of Physicians and Sur geons. in volving MONA, 63 in a me dical audit that was part of the review of the situation at Headin gle y? Fir st of all, can he con fir m that report was carried out by his department? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I want to take that que stion as notice. Illegal trucking operations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembi na. MR. D. ORC HARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have a question for the Min ister of Hi ghw ays and Transpor ta­ tion.

Can the Min ister in form me if complai nts is suing from il legal trucking operations are bei ng in vesti­ gated and pur sue d by the department without interference? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Hig hways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that the best answer I can gi ve at the moment is that with in a coupl e of days there will be a statement made with respect to that whole question. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, in anticip ation of th at statement, Mr .

Speaker, I wou ld appreciate an answer as to whether complai nts are being pur sued by department staff, by in vestigation staff, in the normal cou rse? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I belie ve that there are general complai nts and there are specific ones. It's my un der standing that the spec ific ones are dealt with in the normal manner. General complaint s will be a sub ­ ject of some thin g else which will be announced in a couple of days. Assessment Review hearings MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Mem ber for Swan Ri ver. MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion to the Min ister of Mun icip al Affair s.

I wonder if the Mi nis ­ ter can inf orm the Hous e as to how he pl ans on deal­ ing with the assess ment review recom mendation. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Min ister of Mu nici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have annou nced previously, last Sess ion, that we will be holding hearings in Janu ary. I've responded to the Honour able Memb er for Swan Ri ver by letter the approxima te dates that we would be holding these hearings.

I hope, prior to those hearings, to have a briefing for the St anding Comm ittee on Munic ipal Affairs of the Leg islatur e so that they will have some briefing before we un dertake these heari ngs. MR. D. GOURL AY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Mi nis ter could ind icate to the Hous e what the Gove rnme nt position will be with respect to the assessment review recommendations prior to going out on these hearings?

Tuesday, 7 Oec�mb�f11982 HON. A. ADAM: Mr . Speaker. we have, as mem bers opposite (Ire aware, und ertaken a study over the past few months and we have come up with some conclu ­ sions as pertain to the recomme ndations. These recomme ndations will be provided to the mem bers of the commit tee and to the people who attend the hearings. MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Mini s­ ter could clarify the actual posit ion.

Will the Govern­ ment, thr ough the Min ister of Muni ci pal Affairs, have a firm position to take to those hearings so that the various people that are asked to come to those hear­ ings kno w what the Gove rnmen t's position is going to be? HON. A. ADAM: Mr . Speaker. we have a numb er of recommend ations provided to us by the Weir Comm it­ tee on Asses sment. The major problem is that people do not un derstand what has been recommen ded.

It's a very comple x document and, as a result of that, we have received some requests by some local Govern­ ments to ple ase come out and advise us what the reco mm endations are because we don't un derstand them; they are too complex.

The prim ary purp ose of the hearings is to go out and try and im part this in for­ mation that is contained in the reco mmen dations so that we will -(I nterjec tion )- I'm not sur e whether mem bers opposite und erstand the recommendations thems elves, but we kn ow there are a lot of people out there that are having dif ficu lty grapplin g with the reco mm endations and we will want to have some feedback from people out there what they think of these recom mendations . We bel ieve in in terfacing with the public, in communi cating with the public, and we in tend to do that, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. GOURL AY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Mi ni s­ ter can indic ate at this time the locations and dates as to the actual hearings. HON. A. ADAM: I bel ieve the dates will be between the 24th and 28th of Januar y. Staff is wor king on the details. We want to meet, Mr. Speaker, with the Advi­ sory Commit tee of Mu nicip al Affairs so that we can di scuss with them where the most appropr iate places are to have the hearings and we will annou nce that in due cou rse. Festival du Voyageur - casino facility MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I dir ect my question to the Min ister of Fi nance and would ask him if he could confir m that he presented a cheque for $1 25,0 00 to the Festival du Voyageur for the estab­ lishme nt of a casino facil ity? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Fina nce. HON. V. SCHR OEDER: No, Mr . Speaker. MFt A. BANMAN: Ttiank you , Mr. Speaker. A qu es­ tion to the Minis ter of Economic Development and 64 Tourism, I wonder if she cou ld inf orm the House whether or not she presented a ch eque for $1 25,000to the Festival du Voyageu r for the establishm ent of a casino facility. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Festival du Voya­ geur received a cheque for their role as a tourism attraction and the casino operation is, as you all kno w, a part of the wi nter festival but in fact it is not the only part of the operati on. So I think the pu rpose of the money is certainly not to be separated from the casino operation but it is only dedic ated to that role in the sense that it is a part of their total wi nter festival and it happens to be the major tourism attraction in Manit­ oba in the winter months. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in li ght of the provinc e being faced with that particular facil ity, I wonder if the Min ister could in form the House whether any stud ies as far as the viabil ity or the feasibili ty of the establish­ ment of such a facil ity was un der taken by her depart­ ment before they issued any funds to that particular organiza tion. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the role of Travel Mani toba is to respond to requests accord ing to the program areas that we have. In this case the Festival had done their planning and subm itted their proposal and request for funds to the department.

After very careful analysis of their proposal the department did not, in fact, meet the full level of their request but met the com ponents of the proposal that we felt came within our area of concern. There was some di ffer­ ence between the amount requested and the amount gr anted but it seems to me that is a very normal proce­ dur e and, in fact. I think a very sound procedure that Governm ent does not always giv e the full amoun t that a group would like to have but in fact designa tes that portion of the request they feel is fully supportable.

That is in fact what we did and I think we made a very sound decision. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Health on a poin t of order. HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Mr. Speaker, as the Minis ter responsible for Lotteries I feel that I have some added inf ormation to gi ve the Hous e. I'd like to do so at this time. I wish to say that the Festival du Voyageur was in formed that they had no automatic li cence for that place and in fact that building, as far as I was con­ cerned, would have to stand on its own two feet and not take any consider ation that they wou ld have any li cence for either bin go or a casino.

They acknowl­ edged that to me and I could show the letter to the Mem bers of this Hous e and the honour able member if he wants to see it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, in lightofthe fact that

7 December, 1982 buildin g was supp osed to be used for a casi no and now apparently is not fu nctional for casino pu rposes. I have a fur ther qu estion to the Min ister in charge of Lotteries. I wonder if he could tell me whether the Lottery Licensing Board made that decision or if the Minis ter made the dec ision. HON. l. DESJ ARDINS: I made the decis ion to write to that group so they wou ldn' t go un der the assump ­ tion they wou ld have an automatic lic ence, either for a casino lik e it seems to have been the style the last few years, or that they cou ld operate a comme rcial bi ngo.

They wou ld have to be sub ject to the same polic y that would be made after we received the Jewers Report and the polic ies are made and annou nced in this House. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a que stion to the Min ­ ister in charge of Economic Devel opment and Tour­ ism . This then begs the qu estion. if the Min ister in char ge of Lotteries in formed the Festival du Voyageur that they did not have an automatic lic ence for a casino. can the Minis ter now - and sinc e that was part and parcel of the econ omic viab ili ty of that facili ty -(lnterjec tion)- MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Health on a Point of Order. HON. l. DES JARDINS: The mem ber insis ts on repeating and tellin g the mem bers of this House and I'm answeri ng that wasn't the case. We have docu­ mentation to prove that; that wasn't even taken into consider ation at any tim e. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, si nce -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Min is­ ter of Econo mic Development and Tourism wou ld provide the House with the ratio nale, the feasibil ity workings with regard to that facili ty so that we can have a look and see whether or not the $1 25, 000 was expended in a proper and fiscally prudent mann er so that we can assure the taxpayers of Manit oba that this particular instance is one that was studied very tho­ roughly before it was gone in to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Ec onomic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr . Speaker.

When we received the request for a grant by the Festival, the Honour able Min ister responsible for Lotteries and myself met together and realized that there mi ght be some assu mption on the part of the Festival that there was going to be a regul ar li cence for them to operate casin os there and that might in fact leave them to und ertake a mor e ambitious project than was reaso­ nable. So we un dertook to meet with them, Mr .

Speaker, and explain to them that we were not in a position to guar antee them any right to hold casinos there dur ing the part of the year when the Festival proper was not in session and that we wanted them not to make any assum ptions they were financing that 65 buildin g with the expectation of casino fu nds. Ther e­ fore, I think what we did was ask them to review their plans and we in fact made very careful detail s in offer­ ing the gr ant to excl ud e any dependency on casino funds.

In fact, we did reduce the amount that was gi ven to them from their original request because we thought there had been somewhat - how shall I say? - an excessive expe nditur e pattern laid out and we felt we should n't be responsible for rather ambitious pl an­ nin g on their part The part of the operation that we felt we could, in good conscienc e fund, was the facili ty which does have meeting rooms that are comple men­ tary to our Convention Centre.

They have a smaller ­ scale room which is available for those convent ions, large mee tings, which often get bump ed from the big Conve ntion Centre because it has to give pr:urit y to national or in ternational convent ions. We exami ned it very carefu ll y in relation to that facili ty and then made very clear to the or ganizers of the Festival that we wanted to supp ort their festival activities in the wi nter, but not an ongoing casino activity. It is fully docu­ mented and I think the $1 25, 000 is clearly designa ted to the tourism components of that operation. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please.

Time for que stion period having expir ed. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAK ER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Mem ber for Ri el and the motion in amendment to by the Honour able Leader of the Opp osition, standing in the name of the Honour able Member for St. Norb ert MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker, I too, lik e others who have spoken in this debate, am happy to see that you, Sir , have recovered from the health problems that you had dur ing the last Session and, very sinc erely, extend to you my best wishe s for a healthy Session and many mor e until this Session ul timately prorogues. Mr. Speaker, yesterday my Leader referred to the NOP election document, "A Clear Cho ice for Man ito­ bans," as the most misl eading election document ever produc ed by a politic al party in Manit oba. Mr . Speaker. he was mor e than accu rate.

Contai ned with in that document was a promis e which I don't belie ve he referred to, but it was one that said, "An NOP Govern­ ment would take action to get Man itoba's troub led economy moving again and restore vital ity to the pro­ vincial econ omy." Mr. Speaker, I think it's fair, as he did, to judge the ho nesty and the in tegrity of a Gove rnment by what it promis es to do and by what it actually does. Today, Mr. Speaker, the Mi nis ter of Fi nance tabled the latest Qu arterly Fin ancial Statement in this House showing a predi cted deficit of $498.4 mi llion, double the deficit of the last fiscal year. Mr.

Speaker, do you recall, the people of Manitoba will recall, the com­ ments of the Fi rst Min ister, when shortly after assum­ ing office or jus t before assu mi ng office, when the latest Quar terly Report was issued that ind icated a

7 December, 1982 deficit of some $257 milli on how up set the Fir st Min is­ ter was, how he ind icated it wou ld be imp ossi ble for their Government un der these cir cu mstances to carry on, that this was such a bu rden that the Cons ervative Government had thr own upon them and how irr es­ ponsible it was for us to have had a defi cit in that amount. No w we have witne ssed, Mr. Speaker, the abil ity of the Minis ter of Fina nce in this par ticul ar Government to manage the economic affairs of the Provin ce of Manit oba, $498.4 milli on or half a bi llion deficit predi cted by the end of this year.

I supp ose, taken by itself, it's not that impor tant, Mr. Speaker, but I think we have to look seriously at the imp l ications for the prov inc e as a whole. One of the fir st que stions that comes to mind, Mr . Speaker, is, what will this do to the credit rating of this province? There was some dou bts expressed, as I recall, when the Bud get was annou nced last spring by the Fin ance Min ister as to the effect of that deficit on the cred it rating of this province. Mr .

Speaker, it will be in terest­ ing to learn in com ing days and weeks what effect the amount of this de ficit is going to have on the cred it rating of this province. In addition, Mr . Speaker, our Leader referred to the bur den particula rly on the younger people of this pro­ vi nce who are going to have to pay off these ki nds of debts. This, without qu estion, is going to im pose a bur den on the people of this prov inc e to retire a deficit of this size and it is incum bent, Mr. Speaker, up on this Governme nt who admitted in the Throne Speech that ther e was a recess ion un der way when they took office.

They admit ted that in the Thr one Speech but, yet, they ran up a deficit li ke this, but it is incumb ent up on them, Mr. Speaker, to gain control of the fi nan­ ces of this provi nce in the best in terests of this pro­ vinc e. We, as our Leader has said, will do everything we can, Mr . Speaker, to deal with that issue and to offer constructive criticism. There appears to be, Mr. Speaker, very lit tle simi lar­ ity between what this Government says it will do and what it actually does. Mr. Speaker, it pers ists in self­ ser ving rheto ric and attempts to fool and delude the people of this province.

On Page 9, Mr . Speaker, of the Thr one Speech, they stated that "The residents of this pro vinc e have the right to demand of their ele cted officials the hig hest possible standards and to that end, leg is lation dealing with conflic t of in terest of mem bers of the Legislative Assem bly and conflic t of in terest of mem bers of Mun ic ip al Councils will be in troduced." Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be much mor e to the point if they wish to achie ve that objective, because it's certain ly a right that the residents of this provi nce have, but it wou ld be much mor e to the point if the Government in its elect ion docum ents, in all of its statements, would stick to the truth and be honest with the people of Man itoba. That would be much more im portant to the residents of this prov in ce than the kind s of statements we've had to deal with and the kin ds of elec tion promis es that were offered to the people of Manit oba when we look at the results of what has occurred. Mr .

Speaker, they con tinue to offer to the people of Manitoba this self-ser ving rhe toric. On Fri day last, Mr. Speaker, I think the Premier of this province sunk to the lowest level that I have seen him go.

He said on 66 Page 9 of Hans ard in response to a qu estion of the Leader of the Opposit ion, "The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition should then identif y for us, item by item by item, not jus t peanut items but subst antial items because this Government, unlik e the previous Government of the Provinc e of Manitoba, does not intend to ki ck the crutches out from und erneath the handi capped in the provi nce." Mr.

Speaker, that kind of statement, an outright lie from the Prem ier of this province to other elected representativ es causes me, certainly perso nall y, and I kno w causes members of this Op posi tion, a great deal of concern, Sir . I had the opp ortunit y, Mr. Speaker, when I served on Ci ty Cou ncil as Chair man of the Works and Opera tions Comm ittee, Sir, to in itiate in the Ci ty of Winnip eg the Handi- Transit system, and I gi ve cred it to the NOP Government of that day for com plying with the request from the Ci ty of Winnip eg to offer some financial sup ­ port. We in itiated that prog ram, Mr.

Speaker, and it's not only - it's not perfect, noth ing is perfect - but it's a good system for transportation of phy sically handi­ capped people and probably one of the best certainly in Nor th America. Our Government carried out programs whil e in office to supp ort the rig hts of handi capped people, Mr. Speaker, and to have the Premier make a com­ ment lik e this you kno w when it comes from the Premier of the provin ce it comes from the office of the Premier - there are people out there who bel ieve that kind of comme nt. Mr .

Speaker, I perso nally resent that and I think every mem ber on this si de resents that and I hope perhaps one of the few memb ers who is in the Hous e from the opposite side will bring that to the attention of the Fir st Min ister because I think he should, in all ho nesty, withdr aw that statement. Mr . Speaker, the Government however contin ues with its propensity to di verge from the truth and offered recently to the press, to the media and to the publ ic, a repor t on action taken by the NOP Govern­ ment, December, 19 81 to Novem ber, 19 82. In that report, Mr.

Speaker, I'm only going to deal with a few paragraphs, but in the second-last paragraph on the fi rst page, they talked about, "F or the fi rst time in several years, Man itoba's forecast to have one of the best econ omic performances of any province." Mr. Speaker, we've heard the Qu arterly Fin ancial Report today. They knew that was com ing so maybe it was at the pri nter's, Mr . Speaker. But despite the Minis ter of Fin ance's and the Government's kno wledge of this report, they made a statement lik e that to the people of Manitoba. They went on, Mr .

Speaker, in the last paragraph on that page that said, "Many indi viduals and groups that seem to be losing hope in the futur e have some expectation of a better lif e for them selves and their chi ldr en ." Explain that, Mr . Speaker, to the 5,371 in di viduals or famil ies who are on welfare in the Ci ty of Winnip eg, an incr ease of 131 percent over the 2,322 welfare cases ju st 12 months ago when this Government jus t took office. Mr. Speaker, they go on to talk about the good start made by the new NOP Gove rnment. They talk about a one -time $23 mill