LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 27 May, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, before you begin with routine proceedings, I would lik e to note for those members of the House who may not be aware - I think by now almost all of the members of the House are aware - that the Clerk of the House, Jack Reeves, is not present today. He has had a serious heart attack; his co nditio n has stabilized.

He is in Seven Oaks Hos­ pital and cannot receive flowers and can only receive visit ors on a limit ed basis. It's expected that he will be in intensive care for the next three days and, of course, we all hope for a speed y recovery. The Deputy Clerk, Gordon Mackin tosh, will assume the position of Clerk for the time that is requi red. I would like to welcome to the House, someone I think known to most members of the House, Ric hard Willis, the Chief Electoral Officer who is an Acting Deputy Clerk by Order- in-Council and will sit in that position as required. MR . SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Fort Garry.

MR. L. SHERM AN: The Oppos ition would like to assoc iate itself with the remarks of the Honourable Government House Leader to welcome the Acting Clerk and Deputy Clerk to their po sitio ns, to assure the family of Mr. Reeves that we are thinking about them and to wish Mr. Reeves a speedy and complete recovery. MR. SPEAKER: Present ing Petitio ns . . . Reading and Receiving Petitio ns .. . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resoluti ons, di rects me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourab le Member for Radisson, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. S?EAKER: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, an hi stor ic agreement between the Federal Government and the Governments of Manito ba, Sask atchewan and the No rthwest Territories in Barren Grounds Caribou 2773 Management will be signed in Winnipeg on June 3, 1982.

The new agreement will provide for establishment of a Caribou Management Board whose respon sibili­ ties will be the restorat ion and management of the Beverly and Kaminuriak herds of Barren Grounds caribou. An agreement will be signed by the Mini sters responsible for Indian and No rthern Affairs, Environ­ ment Canada, Northwest Terr itorie s Renewable Resources, Northern Saskatchewan and Mani toba Natural Resources.

Following the signing of the agreement, the Minis­ ters will establish the Caribou Management Board which will be compr ised of senior off icia ls from each of the government departments as well as two members representing the caribou-user communities of Tadoule Lake, Lac Brochet and Brochet. The fir st major task for the board will be the devel­ opment of a management plan for the Beverly and Kaminuriak herds. The plan will contain guid elines and strat egies and con stitute the blueprint toward restoration of the herds.

The signing of the agreement will mark the beginning of a new era in the manage­ ment of Barren Grounds caribou and has been the product of several years of discussion with represen­ tatives of the communities involved. I am pleased with the fruitful outcome of dedicated work by all

part ies in developing the agreement. It will be the fi rst time in the history of caribou management that such a board has been established and also the fir st time that government jurisdictio ns have entered into formal agreement to manage the Beverly and Kaminuriak herds. The populations of these once great herds has dras­ tic ally declined over the past 20 years. In 1955, the population of the Kaminuriak herd was estimated to be about 150,000. Today the herd numbers less than 40,000. Simil arly, the Beverly herd was estimated at 93,000 in 1980, reduced from 210,000 in 1971.

The most drast ic evidence of the Kaminuria k's herd decline is the reduction in range. In the 1950s, some ani mals wintered in No rthwestern Ontar io. In 1980, the herd barely crossed the No rthwest Terr itories border into Manitoba. Simi lar range reducti ons have been observed in the Beverly herd. Mr. Speaker, that is the formal statement and I want to ack nowledge the efforts of previous Mini sters of Natu ral Resources in respect to the development of this agreement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: I'm certainly pleased by the Minis ter's statement that its been the case of a successful culmi­ nation of a lot of work, and if I'm pleased, you can imagine how pleased the caribou are. Mr. Speaker, in addition to the remarks made by the Minis ter, it should be pointed out, and I know the Minis ter will agree with this, that although Mani toba's juris dictio n is not the preeminent one, but the leader­ ship role played by the Department of Na tural Resources in bringing abo ut the agreement that was announced this morning or this afternoon by the Min-

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 ister, they played a very paramount role in doing so. We had brought about the necessary discussions with our own Na tive groups to agree to this kind of management. I won't name some of the jurisdicitions that were somewhat slow in coming to that same agreement, but it was the persistent effort on the part of - and I'd like to name just one or two specific senior Civil Service people who were dedicated to this task -one who is no longer with us, Mr. Dennis Surrendi, who was Assistant Deputy Minister in the department who made it a very personal obligation to pursue this agreement.

Another one, of course, is the present and continuing Director of Wildlife for the department, Mr. Richard Goulden. Along with those and along with the dedicated effort on the part of, I believe, some four or five jurisdictions, the Territories, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Manitoba, along with the Federal Depart­ ment of Indian Affairs, along with individual Indian bands, that kind of co-operation had to be sought to arrive at the agreement that the Minister announced this morning. We welcome that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No tices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 44 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Ruth Hooker School under the direction of Mrs. May. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable First Minister. There are also 44 students of Grades 7 and 9 stand­ ing from the Ochre River School under the direction of Mr. Maki. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin. There are also 30 students from the R.J. Waugh School under the direction of Mr. K. Thorne.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. And there are 22 students of Grade 6 standing from the La Verendrye School under the direction of Mr. Mel Hanna. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Economic Development. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. Mr.

Speaker, there has been a longstanding request for right-of-way by the Indian bands at Shoal Lake, Bands 40, 41, but my numbers may be wrong, that have to do with the proposed development on Shoal Lake. My question to the Honourable Minister is, is that request still before the government, before the department? MR. SPEA K ER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACK LING: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't hearing -what were the specifics of the request of the honour­ able member? MR. H.

ENNS: The specific request some 2-% years ago, Chief Herb Redsky called upon the Department of Na tural Resources for permission for right-of-way to build a road that would eventually hook up through the Manitoba section, through Manitoba, the Crown lands, to the proposed area that has been talked about of potential development, cottage and recreational lot development, in that area near the mouth of the Win­ nipeg Water Supply Reservoir. My question, is that request for that right-of-way been put to government.

The reaction of the then government was to deny any request pending satis­ factory arrangements that could be worked out with the City of Winnipeg. My request to the Minister, is that request for right-of-way still before the government? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, yes, there was a request or a continuing request in respect to that matter and, of course, that request immediately gave rise to concerns in respect to the effect on the City of Winnipeg water supply and the environmental impact generally of a road to that area. For that reason, no definitive answer was given.

The matter was going to be the subject of continuing consultation with the band and, of course, with the City of Winnipeg. MR. H. ENNS: I direct a further question to the same Minister. Perhaps I could have directed it to the First Minister. I ask the question, Mr.

Speaker, because the answer that I heard via the media I wasn't here yes­ terday - that the Minister of Environment gave on the same subject matter seemed to indicate that there were no particular actions that the Provincial Gov­ ernment could take with respect to a matter that is admittedly a federal matter dealing in another juris­ diction and dealing on Indian Reserve lands.

But I would ask the Minister that surely the Province of Manitoba, that this government, will be as prepared to, in effect, deny requests of that kind of right-of-way that would essentially block that development until such time that a satisfactory tripartite agreement that assures the City of Winnipeg of its continued safety with respect to water supply and at the same time tries to meet the legitimate aspirations of the bands involved? 2774 HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Speaker, I don't think the Honourable Minister of the Environment indicated that this government was helpless in making any deci­ sions or taking any action in respect to developments, but in respect to the question of the proposed road, I think our actions speak louder than words. We have not authorized the road to be developed. We feel that there are environmental problems that would arise and they have to be addressed before we can consider the road. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 same Mini ster, along the same line of questio ning that the Member for Lakeside posed, I wonder if the Minis­ ter could inform the House whether or not the site of the road will be discus sed with area residents in the area of the Falcon Lake-East Braintree area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACK LING: Mr. Speaker. there has been no decision to develop a road so. therefore, there is nothing to place before residents for consideration. It's a question of decision of principle fir st and that decision has not been made. MR. R. BAN MAN: Mr.

Speaker, in lig ht of the fact that a couple of years ago the band did start some brush­ ing work on a road which would have hooked up with the South Shore Lake Road at Falcon Lake and. I understand, at that

part icular time the Province of Mani toba indi cated that they were not going to get the right-of-way into that

part ic ular area. I wonder if the Minis ter could assure us that once there are further deliberations along this line that residents of the area will be able to have some input to make sure that their concerns are expressed with regard to where this road will join the existing roads either at East Braintree or at the Trans-Canada Highway. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker. the honou rable member indi cates a knowledge of nego tiatio ns with residents, and so on. that I'm unaware of.

I know that the previous administration did have some consi dera­ tions for this road and the nature of the honou rable member's qu estions indic ate that there was some understanding that residents were going to be served by this road. if it had been developed under the pre­ vious ad minis trati on. I'm not knowledgeable about that. Mr. Speaker.

I do know that there was some consideration on the part of the pre vious admini stra­ tion in having some equity position in respect to any development that took place there and I'm not par ticu­ larly knowledgeable about that but certainly we have made no co mmit ments in respect to the road development. MR. B. BANMAN: Well. Mr.

Speaker. without going into a lengthy clar ific ati on, I wonder if the Mini ster could assure the House that before a permit is granted for the constr uctio n of the road. and should the road fall within the pro ximitie s of the Falcon Lake area. in particular in the South Shore area. that consultation with the residents would take place before such a permit was issued. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker. this government's record for consultation with the people, I think, is now becoming character istic and we certainly are pre­ pared to consult wit h people that are interested in any project this government is involved in, but to suggest that there is some decision or that we are in a po sition now to start consultation about a road isn't the case. I've indi cated that there was a concern in respect to the environmental aspects and those have to be dealt with fir st. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker. my ques tio n is to the Honourable Acting Premier. and arises out of the announced approval by the Federal Government of what is described as "one of the most ambitious oil explorat ion programs ever undertaken in Hudson Bay," a program which will cover some 5,000 kilome­ tres of seismic tests this summer. My question to the Acting Premier. Mr. Speaker, is whether the program will encompass Manitoba's offshore region? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'd lik e to take that question under advisement. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr.

Speaker, to forshorten the exchange, may I ask the Deputy Premier if she would also take three other questio ns as notice on the same subject. they being the follow ing? Has there been any consultation with Manitoba on this exploration project? Will there be any direct Mani­ toba

part icip ation in it? It is my understa nding that there are three partners in it and an agency of the Ontario Government is involved. And finally, Mr. Speaker. is there clear recog nitio n acknowledged here of pro vincial offshore mineral rights? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Rob lin-Rus sell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a questio n for the Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources who looks after the Water Resources Branch.

Since the PFRA report on drought, the 1982 report, was released there's been a lot of concerns expressed in my consti­ tuency about the shallow water levels that are reported in the area. I wonder if the Minis ter has had a chance to look at that report yet; I think it was released last month. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLIN G: Mr. Speaker, I haven't exam­ ined with my off icia ls the reports of ... Is he refer­ ring to the PFRA Report? I haven't had an oppo rtunity to discuss thaf with my officials. I can take that as notice. MR. W. McKE NZIE: I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder then maybe the Min ister could advise me at a later date if he's prepared to use his staff or PFRA to go into the area and jus t see how actu ally serious the problem is that's reported from Swan River down to Pip estone. There are wells reported already that are going dry in the area so there's qu ite a bit of concern being expressed and, if he could report back later, it would be most grateful. 2775 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morr is. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you. Mr. Speaker.

Two weeks ago, I gave verbal notice to the Minis ter of Natur al Resources regarding a supposed new PFRA Report dealing with La Salle River div ersi on. I'm

Thur sday, 27 May, 19 82 wondering if the Minis ter can indic ate whether he or his department has now received that report and, two, will he table copies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I believe I have received that report; I've received so many reports in respect to water. I think the specific report that the honourable memb er is referring to is a fair ly extensive one.

I haven't had a chance to examine all the details of that report, but I see no reason why, if it's the report I bel ieve that he's referring to, I have received it and I have no problem in tabl ing copies. MR. C. MANNES S: I'm wondering if the Min ister can indicate what action his department will take on the report and will consid eration be gi ven to including the project in 19 83 appropriati ons. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, there are exten­ sive developments in the southwestern part of Ma ni­ toba and througho ut Ma nitoba in volving water drain­ age and water storage.

Certainly we'll have to look at our prior ities in spending, gi ven the diffi cult time s in which we live, but certainly any appropriat ion of fund­ ing or any expenditur e of funding will not be dictated on the area of the province and whether it is repre­ sented by an honourable mem ber of the Opposition or not. We're concerned, in respect to the development of resources in Mani toba, and will be fair in connec­ tion with that, whether the timing is right for that development and whether it's appropriate will have to be determi ned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr .

Sp eaker, to the Mi nister of Nat­ ural Resour ces, in view of his answer to my col league, the Memb er for Morris, that there's a lot of work being done in the sout hwest part of the province, is the Mini ster applying the polic y to the rest of Man itoba that he's asked the constituent s in the Arthur consti­ tuency, the mun icip alitie s, to proceed with there; if there's any work to be done on the Har tney Dam, a diversion put around it, the cost of that diversion would be applied to the municip alit ies and it would be the local taxpayers that would have to pay for it rather than the government responsibili ty of paying for it.

Is that his policy for all of Manitoba, or just for southwest? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Na tural Resou rces. HON. A. MACK LING: Mr . Speaker, I hear some chir p­ ing from the Honour able Memb er for Pembina. Mr . Speaker, the residents in the im mediate vicin ity and upstream of the Har tney Dam have a particular prob­ lem. Tha t dam was built for the purposes of water storage to fac il itate various uses there.

Those uses are still legiti mate and I belie ve that during the course of the previous admin istrat ion they sought to maintain that dam inviolate agains t the wishes of residents in the area who wanted to have the dam opened and release mor e water. As a matter of fact, a farmer who 2776 did take the law int o his own hands was prosecuted during the course of the previous admin istrat ion. The re's been a longs tanding problem in connection with that fac il ity. We have ind icated that we don't want to injure the fac ili ty. We are looking at the problem.

We've sugg ested that in the short run, if the mun ici pal­ ity feels that the flooding upstream could be al le­ viated, yes, we would be ag reeable to the mu nicip alit y making an additional chan nel and building it in accordance with our specifica tions because we don't have money in our Budget at this time for that appropriation. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, I appreciate the Min is­ ter agreeing that the people in that particular part of Ma nitoba do have a problem. And as well, I have a further question to the Min ister.

Is he prepared to proceed im mediately with those jurisdictions then to make the spil lway around the Har ney Dam this spring if, in fact, they were to ag ree to a cost-sharing pro­ gr am which, by the way, Mr . Speaker, I do not think is the responsibili ty of the munic ipalit y and would think it would be the responsibil ity of the government see­ ing that it is an international waterway? Is he prepared to proceed with it imme diately if those jurisdictions are prepared to pay for it? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr .

Speaker, I've indi cated that the problem was a lon gsta nding one and the previous adminis tration and the previous mem ber who spoke had an opportunity, of course, to deal with that prob­ lem ; nothing has been done with it, the problem con­ tin ues to plague some people there. Now whether or not the solution that's been proposed is appropria te is something of which I'm not certai n.

However, of this much I am certain, that we are prepared to meet with people, talk to them about their problem and see how it can be resolved. l'm not sug gesting however that it is possible for us to commit ou rselves to a very very substantial expenditure of money if the prior ities do not justify it. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister in his answer, I would consider somewhat contradic tory, that in itially he said he would have ag reed to the spil ­ lway around the dam and they had a problem and that would help assist that particular area of the provinc e.

Now he's saying he has some question in his mind whether, in fact, it is of any use. I really don't think he's very consistent in his response. A question to the Min ister, Mr . Sp eaker, if in fact his fir st answer to the problem, that there is a problem and that a spill way would in fact help the situation, would he put in his Esti mates for next year, the proper funds to al leviate or solve that particular problem at Ha rt­ ney? Another point, Mr .

Speaker, I have a question to the Min ister that if he would look back and, just for the record of this Ho use and the people of Man itoba, see that the majority of years we were in office we had extreme drought conditions in the southwest and, in fact, probably was not the appropriate time to make such changes. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Speaker, naturally my department is concerned about drought and lack of water in any part of the province and certainly con-

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 cerned about the improvement of conditions for agri­ culture in all parts of the province. In respect to the particular problem, I have received the same kind of advice the previous administration received, that a mere alteration of that dam will not change the prob­ lem that has existed. The channel, the Souris River channel, is just not sufficient, upstream from that dam, to maintain the kind of flows that are on the Souris River in the peak periods.

The advice from the same engineers that advised the previous administra­ tion have advised me that it is doubtful that an addi­ tional spillway or passage will make any difference. Despite the fact that I am receiving the same advice that my previous friends opposite received, I'm pre­ pared to commit myself to looking afresh at that ques­ tion.

We've indicated, and I have indicated through my department, that if the municipality feels that the work is justified and they're prepared to do it in the short run, and pay for ii, yes, that we're prepared to supply the specifications and so on to allow that work to go ahead. The honourable member is suggesting I ought to button my jacket; well, I'll button my jacket to suit you, make you feel good. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIED GER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Natural Resources.

A few years ago the previous government managed to stop the Roseau River Channel Improvement Project with the United States because of lack of agreement regarding the mitigating costs. Can the Minister indicate whether the United States is again proposing to proceed with the Roseau River project? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, I haven't been apprised of any fresh developments on the part of American authorities in respect to that.

Of course, we are watchful and concerned about that and I do want to recognize that initiatives were taken in the past in that area, and the previous administration did, quite properly, recognize and note their concern and I believe that there was some change made by the American authorities in that development. We are still going to be very watchful about that. MR. D. ORC HARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Mani­ toba Telephone System.

Does the Manitoba Tele­ phone System hold any proprietary rights to the tech­ nologies developed by I nterdiscom Systems Ltd. , now that the Telephone System has decided their $500,000 loan is not collectible? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member refers to a loan that was made when either he or his colleague for Lakeside were the Minister responsible for the MTS and I guess it was the Board of MTS who made the decision that they had to write off that half million dollar loan as a bad debt when the Honourable Member for Pembina was the Minister responsible for MTS. It seems that it was a rather poor decision made at that time. On the specific question, rather than make a generalization, to be very accurate I am going to take that question as notice. MR. D. OR CHARD : Mr.

Speaker, it took the Minister a long time to take that question as notice. I wonder if I might have the indulgence of the House to reply in kind. Thank you.

Whilst the Minister is taking that question as notice, as to whether the Telephone System has retention to any patent or proprietary rights of the technology developed there, would he also take the time to enquire with MTS, as well, if there is any businessman interest in pursuing development of the technology developed there and whether there's any market value to the technology and interest by the business com­ munity in furthering that technology as there was some months ago? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I haven't heard of any but I'll certainly take that as notice and check with the MTS officials. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. Would the Minister of Educa­ tion indicate if she will be intervening in the closing of Ashland School in Winnipeg School Division No. 1? MR. SP EAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEM PHIL L: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to intervene or interfere with any decisions that are under the responsibility and jurisdiction of school boards. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplemen­ tary question for the Attorney-General.

In view of the report recently tabled in the federal House of Com­ mons with respect to wife battering, would the Attorney-General immediately consider that report and act on the recommendations contained in that report that relate and are within the jurisdiction of the Provincial Government, and do so in full consultation with the City of Winnipeg Police Department, RCMP Force in Manitoba and other agencies in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, I certainly have every inten­ tion of examining that report in great detail and taking what steps are within our jurisdiction to deal with the recommendations. 2777 I would like to point out that there is already on the Order Paper, under Private Members' Hour, a motion by the Honourable Member for Kildonan on the fed­ eral report on wife battering and I think such discus­ sions we may have in the House will assist in develop­ ing a policy. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 discussio ns that may go on in this House may assist the Attorney-General and other members of the gov­ ernment in proceeding with improvements in present procedures and pra cti ces, but would the Attorney­ General undertake to proceed immediately, I think, with some of the recommend ations? I don't think he need wait for the resolution. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice.

We'll want to take a look at the spec ific recommendat ions and reply to the question when I have taken a look at all of the recommendat ions and ident ified more closely those which fall within our jurisdiction for implementation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MAN NESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to ask a question of the Mini ster of Natural Resources.

In Capital Estim ates, or the Est imates in his department, under Resolut ion No. 113 which was the Capital Esti­ mates, we passed, spec if ically, an Agro-Man project for some $450,000 under the name of the Domain Drain which was 40 percent pro vincia lly funded. It has come to my attention, in fact, this project will be ceased and there will be no spending on it. I'm wond­ ering if the Mini ster could tell me, the $180,000 sav­ ings to the prov ince, to what ends they will be used in his department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of Capital items in the area of Natural Resources that require priority treatment. I can take the question as notice and catalogue for him areas in the province where emergency treatment has to be given to issues that are important to various comm unities within the province. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: I'm wondering if the Mini ster could indi cate whether the $180,000 savings that will be brought about by this project that will be cut, will any part of it be di rected towards the payroll tax his department will have to pay? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, that is a very face­ tious question and I won't -(Interjecti on)- and they say oh, no. You see, Mr. Speaker, the item that the honourable member talks about is a Capital item and has nothing to do with current expenses and is not a matter that dir ectly impi nges, therefore, on current expend iture and is one where pro vis ion is not made in any dir ect tax basis. It's a matter of borrow ing that the province has to make and sure, indirectly it reflects on cost.

But since the honourable member has raised the question of the Domain Drain, perhaps he wants me to elaborate on it and I will if that's his purpose. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKE NZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Min ister of Co-op Development. I wonder, can the Minist er advise the House today when the plants at Rossburn and Pilot Mound, the cheese plants, are going to open so that the 50 workers could go back to work? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mini ster of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I have met with the Board of MANCO informally and we have disc ussed problems relating to the production of cheese in Mani­ toba. I have requested the board to present a formal brief to me on what they see are the problems affect­ ing the cheese market in the Province of Manito ba and I am awaiting that brief from them. I hope to have further dis cussions with them on this matter. MR. W. McKE NZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, can the Honourable Mini ster give us a guesstimate of when the plants will open or if they'll ever open again? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, it would be premature for me to suggest any parti cular time for the reopen­ ing of the plants or whether or not they will ever be opened aga in. That is something for the board members of MANCO to decide for themselves. However, while I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, if I could ask the people of Manito ba to go out and buy five pounds of cheese when they go home tonig ht. I appeal to the Province of Mani toba and to members of the Legislat ive Assembly to go out and buy five pounds of Manitoba cheddar cheese and I'm sure that the plants will reopen again. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, do I hear the Hon­ ourable Minis ter, he's going to put an advert ising pro­ gram on and see if we can move some of that cheese? Is that what he's planning? 2778 HON. A. ADAM: I have just done that on television, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. i .. SHER MAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Honourable Government House Leader if he can adv ise the Assembly, in view of the fact that the month of June is looming on the calendar, how many more bil ls does the government intend to introduce during this Session? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: I'll take that as notice and be happy to make an announcement on that, an update in fact, because I've previously made an announcement on that - tomorrow in the House. While I'm on my feet I would hope that the plea for the purchase of cheese was not impliedly accompan­ ied by a plea for the purchase of wine to take home with it and, if so, that it be drunk at home and not in the automob ile ought to be the further message for our audience on telev ision.

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call Second Reading on Bill No. 23 . SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 23 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LEGAL AID SERVICES SOCIETY OF MANITOBA ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Act for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Act introduces amendments which will permit the society to grant legal aid to a group which has an objective or interest relating to an issue of public con­ cern. The amendments make specific reference to consumer or environmental issues as examples of issues of public concern. The amendments will give a legislative sanction to legal aid for those groups such as these involved in consumer and environmental issues. This hasn't taken place before but there has been some doubt as to whether or not the Act man­ dates the issuance of such certificates.

Members may recall that two years ago under the previous administration, a previous board of Legal Aid, a Legal Aid certificate was issued on behalf - I'm just using this as an example - of Ross brook House to take legal action and opposition to the proposed Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass. I would characterize the rest of the amendments in Bill 23 as being of a housekeeping nature, amend­ ments which, in effect, clarify certain provisions of the Act and which remove all masculine references in the Act.

I should say that in doing this, we're beginning a process in which we hope, bill by bill as we deal with amendments, to bring our Statutes in the Province of Manitoba into line with what is happily developing as contemporary thinking on the effect of the discrimina­ tory sexist use of language. I would commend this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. ME RC IER: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Attorney-General was kind enough yesterday in his Estimates for us to go into some discussion of this bill and I thank him for giving me that opportunity to discuss some of the details of it with him. He has referred in his introduction to the fact that this bill will allow the Legal Aid Society to issue a certificate to a group with an objective or interest relating to an issue of public concern. Mr. Speaker, no one on this side is opposed to the granting of Legal Aid to an individual who has a clearly defined problem.

As it stands now, an individual who comes within the income guidelines established by Legal Aid, who, for example, is charged with an indictable offence virtually has a right to receive a certificate from Legal Aid to obtain legal services without cost. I'm not indicating at this stage whether or not I intend to oppose the bill, Mr. Speaker, but I do want to reiterate a concern that I expressed to the Attorney­ General yesterday, that this bill gives the Legal Aid Board the absolute discretion to issue a certificate to a group who has an interest in one of these public issues, public concerns. But, Mr.

Speaker, at the same time in using the example that the Attorney-General indicated, the issuance of a certificate while we were in government to a group headed by Sister Mc Namara in Rossbrook House with respect to the construction of the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass, there is no guarantee that the Legal Aid Board would, for exam­ ple, in any hypothetical situation, issue a certificate to another group who perhaps opposed the first group.

There is a possibility under this discretion which has been given to the Legal Aid Board that they may only issue certificates to those groups who are advo­ cating causes, that they themselves on the board sup­ port and that they will not grant certificates to groups who perhaps take a different view of the issue. For example, using the situation that the Attorney-General referred to, the construction of the Sherbrook­ McGregor Overpass, would a group in favour of the construction of the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass be issued a Legal Aid certificate? Mr.

Speaker, I indicated this concern to the Attorney-General yesterday. I indicated to him again today, we're going to have to consider this bill and determine whether or not it can be improved, so that this complete discretion is left in the hands of the Legal Aid Board, might somehow be further defined so that there is not the danger that the Legal Aid Board will issue certificates to groups only where they sup­ port the cause of that particular group.

I feel that there has to be some justification given or some criteria established to ensure that the board is not put in a situation where they can turn down one group on the basis of their own personal beliefs and views. There has to be some objective test so that a group would be entitled to this type of certificate even if the board wasn't in favour of it, so that one group is not put in a difficult financial situation with one side being supported by public funding and another side not supported by public funding because they happen to take a different view. Mr.

Speaker, as I've said, I'm not indicating at this stage that we intend to oppose this bill but I want to express this concern again to the Attorney-General. 2779 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, there's an agreement

Thur sday, 27 May, 1982 between myself and the Acting Oppos ition House Leader that there will not be a Private Members' Hour today and we're anticipating that the Estim ates when we move into Supply for Education may be fini shed by the end of the afternoon. Because of that, in the House the Est imates of the Attorney-General may be finis hed in committee.

I'd like to announce that when we continue with Estim ates in Supply in the evening that the Estim ates with respect to flood relief, flood control and emer­ gency expenditures will be proceeding with in com­ mittee and that the Estim ates dealing with the Legisla­ tive Assembly will be proceeded with in the House. Accordingly, I would, with the consent of the House, move, seconded by the Mini ster of Commun­ ity Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to con­ sider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and that the House do now adjourn.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart­ ment of Education and the Honourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. The House adjourned and stands adjourned until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. (Frid ay) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIR MAN, H. Harapiak: I call the Committee to order. We are considering the Estim ates of the Attorney-General. The item left is 1. General Adminis­ trati on, (

a) Mini ster's Salary. Mr. Mini ster. HON. R. PENNER: Really, we're utilizing this item primarily but not exclusi vely to invite further observa­ tions and questions from the members present, but parti cularly, I have available this afternoon the Gen­ eral Manager and Chief Executive Officer of the Mani­ toba Liquor Control Comm ission, Mr. William Emer­ son and the Chief Fin ancial Officer of the Commissio n, Mr. Allen Ahoff, avai lable to help me deal with any questions which may be asked about the operations of the Manito ba Liquor Control Commissio n. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the Attorney-General for following through with this procedure which we started during the last few years, because the Attorney-General has been responsible for the Liquor Control Commi ssion of having officials from the Commission avail able when we get to his salary, to dis cuss matters relat ing to the Commissio n. My first question is, Mr. Chai rman, could the Attorney-General adv ise as to the amount that the payroll tax will cost the Liquor Control Comm ission? HON. R. PENNER: Approximately $150,0 00.00. MR. G.

MERCIER: Has the Liquor Commission yet incurred any indirect costs, and by that I'm meaning, if there are truckers for example supplying the Com­ miss ion, or other suppl ies, or other contracts with employers who also have to pay the payroll tax, has the Comm ission yet incurred any indi rect increase in their costs that way, or are they ant ic ipating any in this fiscal year 1982-83? HON. R. PENNER: Well, let me just make a general observation and then I'll refer to Mr. Emerson for any additio nal information he wishes to supply to me.

I expect it's rather early to see whether there is any rip ple effects that come through in that way. I do know that with respect to trucking we have recently submitted for tender and have had tenders for both the east haulage and the west haulage and have firm contracts with hauling firms and we are protected against anything, whether it's increased interest rates or increased taxation, federal or provin­ cia l.

We're protected by the terms of those contracts for, at least, the next year in that parti cular area, but let me just check with the General Manager as to whether them are any other actual or anticip ated rip ple effects of this spec ific tax. The answer is no. MR. G. MERCIER: So, not yet. Mr. Chairman, the Liquor Control Commission had issued a new price list effective May 4, 1982 and the Commission has been kind enough to supply me with a revised price list effective May 30, 1982. Could the Attorney-General indi cate the cost of reprinting the price list? HON. R. PENNER: $20,000. 00. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Estim ates of revenue for the fi scal year ending March 31, 1983 show estimated revenue for the year ending March 31, 1982 is $87,500.00. Was that the actual fi gure? 2780 HON. R. PENNER: The actual fi gure for the net profit for the year ending March 31, 1982 is $91,200,000.00. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as we all know the Liquor Comm ission has been dir ected in the Budget of the government to increase its revenue by $20 mil­ lion effec tive starting May 30 of this year. The Es ti­ mates show a total revenue of $117,500,000 as the estimated revenue for the year ending March 31, 1983.

I guess that's taking into consideration the $20 million additio nal revenue they've been dir ected to raise. Did the increase of May 4 of this year, was that intended to increase the revenue, I suppose up to $107,500.00? HON. R. PENNER: The anticip ation prior to the Budget was $98 millio n and the amount now to meet the requ irements of the Budget is almost exactly $20 mil­ lion more than that. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Cha irm an, the Attorney­ General and Mr.

Emerson provided me and the Attorney-General with a statement that would seem to indi cate that the new mark ups on spirits, for example, domest ic, have gone up from 11 O percent to 127 per­ cent. How long has that mark up of 11 O percent been in effect? HON. R. PENNER: My informat ion is, that with respect

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 to domestic and imported spirits the effect of the '81- 82 Budget was a 5 percent increase but the markups for wine and beer have been in effect from approxi­ mately 1976. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, are not the increases in these mark ups 110 percent on spirits, domestic, go to 127 percent; wine - 11 O percent to 127 on fortified wines, 55 percent to 65 percent on domestic, 55 per­ cent on imported wines going to 70 percent?

Does this not mean that in the future when the suppliers, as they do virtually on an annual basis now, increase their prices that the Liquor Commission will be increasing their prices to a greater degree because of the increase in the markup? HON. R. PENNER: Well, the markup, as any markup is, necessarily is a markup on purchase cost, so that if -let's take an example and I'll just use it as an example - the basic plant price of a bottle of Scotch is $4.00. Would that it were so, then, the markup will be 127 percent on that in the absence of any further budge­ tary impact. MR. G.

MER CIER: Well, to try to make it simple. If the suppliers -(Interjection)- HON. R. PENNER: I thought I did. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, to try to make it even more simple. If in the fall, or some time during the winter of this year, the supplier of this bottle of Scotch increases its price to the Commission by $1, am I not correct in the assumption that,

whereas previously the Liquor Commission took a markup of 117 percent on that dollar, that they will now take a mark up of 127 percent of that dollar? HON. R. PENNER: That is right. MR. G.

ME RCIER: So, the price increases which we are seeing this year and this method of establishing these much higher markups mean, not only is the consumer in Manitoba going to pay significantly greater prices - and we'll get into that later - this year as a result of this Budget but, by increasing this mar­ kup there is going to be in fact an additional - using the spirits - an additional 17 percent markup every time there is a price increase in the future from the supplier. HON. R. PENNER: Well, we have to be careful about how we're using the figures.

Clearly, if you base pric­ ing, in part, upon a percentage markup of cost, then every time cost goes up necessarily the price will go up by the increased markup. That is the same in any business. Myself, being involved in the book business and the furniture business and in other businesses, and in order to exist, in order to maintain a given level of profits, each industry establishes a markup. In the furniture business it used to be 40 percent was basi­ cally what you marked up on cost.

Well, immediately costs went up, if the cost of a chest of drawers went up from $30 to $50, the markup would be on the $50 cost so that there would be that expansionary element. That is not anything strange or new. The other point is, that the change, for example, in mark up from 110 percent to 127 percent is in itself, of course, not a 17 percent increase because the differ­ ence of 17 percent is a smaller percentage of the markup as it was originally. It's not an increase from 100 percent to 127 percent but from 11 o percent to 127 percent and the percentage change from 11O to 127 is not 17. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to talk about wines for a minute; the domestic wine markup is going from 55 to 65 and imported 55 to 70 percent. So what this means is that the markup on future suppli­ ers' price increases is going to be 10 percentage points higher in the future. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, stated that way that is cor­ rect. If the market moves from 55 to 65 percent, then the markup is 10 percentage points higher. MR. G.

MERCIER: What the government is doing here is not just imposing a very significant increase on the consumers this year but for all future years because the markup has been increased, they are going to be taking a bigger and bigger slice of future -(Interjection)- HON. R. PENNER: Swallow. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay, swallow of future revenues on suppliers' price increases to the Commission. Is that not correct? HON. R. PENNER: Agreed, as a markup it will be a larger mark up and as cost goes up the price will go up in accordance with the markup. 2781 MR. G. MERCIER : Mr.

Chairman, the next item on this sheet shows that the net profit sources: spirits $9,500,000; wine $4,300,000; beer, domestic and imported, a total of $6,200,000.00. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. G. MER CIER: That doesn't seem to take into effect the payroll tax effect. HON. R. PENNER : The payroll tax is only as you term it - the levy for health and education is only $150,000 - and we're clearly, in looking at net profit sources, rounding out here when you're dealing in the order of $20 million or dealing at $150,000 with less than 1 percent. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr.

Chairman, I have a price list from November 2, 1981 and I would just like to com­ pare some of the price increases from that period of time to the new price. If the Chairman can bear with me for a minute, this is done in the metric system so it causes me some problems; 710 litres I suppose is what would be referred to as a 26 .. . HON. R. PENNER: It's 710 millilitres. We would like to be able to sell liquor in a volume of 710 litres. You can't

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 carry it away. MR. G. MERCIER: You can't afford it now. A price of a bottle of Seagrams Five Star, if I'm correct, has gone from HON. R. PENNER: What page are you on? MR. G. MERCIER: Page 50. November 1981, it was $10.20 and it's now $11. 60. What is the price in Ontario? HON. R. PENNER: $10.15. MR. G. MERCIER: A bottle of Seagrams V.O. was $11.35 and is now $12. 85. What is the price in Ontario? HON. R. PENNER: $11.30. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, I did men­ tion at the beginning of the Estimates that I would like some comparisons and if the Attorney-General has some sheets of information, perhaps he could provide us with some price comparisons. HON. R. PENNER: They're not yet in a form because I just passed that information along to the General Manager. They're not yet in a form where I can give the Member for St. Norbert a copy this afternoon, but I'll be glad to provide him with a copy. MR. G. MERCIER: Beer in November, 1981, was $5.70 for a carton of 12 bottles and is now $6.90. What is the price in Ontario? HON. R. PENNER: $6.55. MR. G.

MERCIER: Does the Attorney-General have a comparison of an average wine? HON. R. PENNER: I think we can give you a compari­ son on wine, yes. What do you like to drink, imported or domestic? MR. G. MERCIER: I can't afford it. HON. R. PENNER: You can't afford it, but when you could? I know you are a man of sophisticated taste so I won't give you Andres Baby Duck, but what about Blue Nun? The price now in Manitoba after the increase, it was $5.55, it's now $6.40. The same bottle of wine will cost $6.95 in Ontario. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the sheet that the Attorney-General has supplied me with indicates that the Commission expects volume decreases in spirits of minus 4 percent; wine, plus 4 percent; and beer, minus 3.5 percent. Is that . HON. R. PENNER: Yes, these are volume changes, minus in two instances and plus in another. I should say that this is somewhat in accord with general long­ term trends in changes in drinking habits, that is, that prior to the tax on liquor that is imposed in this Budget it was anticipated that there would be a decline in volume sales of spirits and beer and an increase in wine.

So that still holds true but in somewhat different percentages. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Chairman, just to recap and go over this pricing thing once more, I believe the Budget that was presented in the House was stated fairly simply and instructed the Liquor Commission to pro­ vide another $20 million of additional revenue to the province. Was that not correct and the basic instruc­ tion of the Budget Speech? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I should tell the Member for Virden that we've gone over much of this in the last 1 O minutes, but that's right. MR. H.

GR AHAM: What I was getting at was, the Liquor Commission could have achieved that in one of two ways. One was by the method you have chosen which was the increase in markup on commission, or the same results could have been achieved by increas­ ing the retail sales tax on liquor. I was wondering if the Commission had done any studies on taking that approach and, if they had gone that approach, how much the increase in sales tax would have to have been to achieve the $20 million, had they gone that route. HON. R. PENNER: That's not difficult.

I'll round it out, but the anticipated volume of sales in '82-83 at retail price is about $270 million, $280 million, about that. If we had a selective sales tax on liquor and liquor only, then the amount necessary to produce $20 million would be something under 1 percent; no? In fact, to produce it you'd have to go to about 8 percent. 2782 MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Chairman, I haven't got the 1982 figures in front of me but I have the .. . HON. R. PENNER: I'm giving you the anticipated '82- 83; the anticipated '82-83 volume at retail is about $270 million - $280 million.

Just to take off the tax component to get back to basics, say $275 million; right? To produce $20 million out of that I need pretty close to 7.6 percent of a selective sales tax if I'm doing it at the retail end. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Chairman, I'm going by the Annual Report of the Liquor Commission for the year 1981, on page 31, where they list the Manitoba retail sales tax in 1980 produced $11,052,750 and in 1981 that increased to $12,391, 851.00. Projecting those figures you would come up with approximately $13.5 million for 1982 and probably 15, at the maximum, for 1983.

To add an additional $20 million you would probably have to have another 15 percent on top of the 10 percent on retail sales tax on liquor to achieve that $20 million. Is that correct? HON. R. PENNER: It doesn't sound like it's correct. I'll change you computers or pocket calculators, but perhaps we're starting from a different premise. Are you, in your first assumptions, assuming that the sales tax is constant but the dollar value of sales has gone up?

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 MR. H. GR AHAM: I am using the figures provided to us by the Manitoba Liquor Commission. HON. R. PENNER: What assumptions are you mak­ ing though in asking the question? MR. H. GR AHAM: I was trying to get at a compa rison as to how it could be arrived at to achieve $20 million.

It is done, the way you have done it, with 7 percent on beer, 8 on liquor and 15 on wine, I think; and I was thinking there is another way of doing it and that is by increasing the retail sales tax on liquor that presently is on the books and I was trying to arrive at what percentage increase in the retail sales tax would be necessary to achieve the same result and that's the question I was asking. Would it be in the 15 percent or would it be more - additional? HON. R.

PENNE R: My answer to that was - and stand to be corr ected of course - I thought to produce the additional $20 million, because built into the Budget already is an Estimate of what we expect over­ all from the same 5 percent sales tax sp read through­ out the economy, given anticipated sales throughout the economy for '82-83. We've already made an assumption in the Budget that affects income on the sales tax level from liquor control sales as much as from Eaton's and The Bay. We've already made an assumption about that at the 5 percent level.

Now if I were to say, however, we wanted to produce $20 mil­ lion from booze, how could I do it by dealing specifi­ cally with the sales tax on the sale of booze and not on anything else; then it seems to me that if the sales level anticipated is - and I rounded out the figures - about $270 million, $275 million, that to produce $20 million I would need about 7.6 percent added to the specific retail sales tax on the sale of liquor. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr.

Speaker, what I was basically getting at was trying to give public information that reflects the true state of taxation and by increasing the markup 7 percent on beer, 8 percent on liquor and 15 on wines, it leaves the impre ssion with the people that they are not being taxed as much as they actually are because, when you add that increase to the markup, it also automatically increa ses the amount of revenue generated from the 10 percent sales tax that pr esently is in effect.

What I was trying to get at was to get a true picture of what would have been necessary if you increased the retail sales tax only, you would have to have a much larger markup than 7 or 8 and 15 percent. HON. R. PENNER: I don't know why we're at cross purpo ses. The present equivalent of the sales tax on liquor is built into the price.

When I go to The Bay - and Eaton's will excuse me for using the particular exam­ ple although that's about the only thing they'll excuse me for - and buy, let's say, a big ticket item, fridge, $1,000; I get a bill which says $1,000 and then it says 5 percent sales tax and the calculation is made, $50 and I pay $1,050.00. When I go into the liquor store and buy a bottle of booze, let's say, for $10, I pay $10; I don't pay $10 and the 5 percent, 50 cents, $10.50.

But that is there, it's built in and the way in which the sales tax in effect is built in on the sale of booze, it's already in the price. -(Interj ection)- That's right. That is already the case with liquor. MR. H. GR AHAM: I believe the public does generally know that the retail sales tax on liquor is 10 percent, not 5. HON. R. PENNE R: Well, it's 5 on beer and 1 O on spir­ its and wine. MR. H.

GR AHAM: I was just trying to arrive at a pic­ ture that the public, knowing what the present sales tax is, and the government insisting on another $20 million, if that could be told to the public in a form that was equated to an increase in present taxation which they already know, they would probably then get a better picture of how much tax has really been added to the price of liquor, rather than doing on the markup basis. That was the only point I was trying to make. 2783 HON. R. PENNER: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the question that I have is dealing with the policy of the Liquor Control Commission on penalizing of permit holders or facili­ ties on which permits are issued when there's a breach - a breach probably is not the word, but a breach would probably be the proper word to use - when in fact the regulations or the rules which are laid out to deal with permits are not fully adhered to in the opera­ tions of the par ticular function which a permit is issued for.

I'll give you a specific situation, and really it's infor­ mation that I'm trying to get a clarification of policy, and I think there's an actual situation in my own con­ stituency at the present time that is affected by it, and that is, for example, there's a facility where a lot of families rent the particular hall or the facility to have a wedding dance or that kind of function.

They either have a local service club or take it upon themselves to permit the particular function that is going on and because of an infraction or an extended period of time that the alcohol was left on the table following a par­ ticular dinner or dance or whatever, and the people who were having that particular function didn't enforce the permit the way they should have, it is my under­ standing that the policy is that the following functions coming up are now unable to receive a permit to pro­ vide liquor for their guests.

The point I'm trying to make is that to remove the right to permit that pa rticular facility for the following three months - be it that period of time, I think, that's roughly what it is - that the people who are causing the problem to start with are only there one night and the people who are being penalized are those that are subsequently following the particular event that the problem was caused at.

I think there has to be some way that the penalization of people who abuse the rights, giving them a permit, and I'm not against the regulations as they are now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against that, I think they have to have that kind of control over it but what I'm saying is that the penaliza­ tion or the penalizing of abuse of a permit has to be, 1. think, changed so that the people who now want to entertain their friends in the same facility at their fa mi-

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 ly's wedding aren't going to be hurt in a way which isn't fair to them. I would hope the Minis ter would take a look at this policy with the Commission and see if there isn't some way that it could be worked out. I'm going to get some more detail on the spec ific one that was brought to my attention last weekend because I think two families that are hoping to have wedding functions, entertain their frie nds, and provide li quor and if the perm it peo­ ple won't allow that to happen then it pretty much throws a curve into their plans.

Maybe the Minis ter has a comment to make and maybe he would look spec ifi­ cally at this one for me. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you. Let me, first of all, to the Member for Arthur give some background infor­ mation which might help and then indi cate where our mutual concern in fact lie s. For the first six months, for the six-month period, November 1, 1980 to April 30, 1981, there were 556 occasi onal permits which were inspected. That fig ure, by way of comparison for the six months from November 1, 1981 to April 30, 1982 is 594, an increase of 7 percent, so it's not in that respect an alarming increase.

Now with respect to halls, where an infrac­ tion was found or where in the comparat ive period, the earlier period, two suspensions and one warning and in the later six-month period only one suspens ion and seven warnings. With respect to permittees the fig ures were as fol­ lows: there were for the earlier six-month period three suspensions and three warni ngs; and for the later, three suspens ions and 12 warnings. Now having given the background information, the whole ques­ tion of occasional permits is a source of concern.

First of all, socially it's desirable that they should be permit­ ted, clearly I think everyone would agree. They're dif­ fi cult to super vise and we don't want to restrict and be overly restr icti ve, and yet we're concerned about the facility and about the way in which the occasion itself is run. We do not want to be so severe that, as I say, we limit the soci ally effe ctive use of the occasional permit.

So, in fact, there are ongoing dis cussions between myself and the Commission and within the Commis­ sion, and between the Commission and the General Manager and the Inspect ion and Enforcement Branch, as to a policy that might ulti mately require some legis­ lation or regulat ion, but we're concerned that there be some respons ibility that the hall itself have adequate fire exists, safety features, health facilitie s. We want to set a standard on that and once that standard is there, then substantially put the onus on the permittee.

So we have, for example, a split jurisdiction; the hall owner for the safety and health of the hall; the permit­ tee for the way in which the occasion is run. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think just to aga in give a little bit more of the background in the way in. which the social activ ities have changed, par­ ticularly in rural Manitoba.

The halls, initia lly I can remember as I was a young person growing up, they didn't have the facilities that the member has referred to and through di fferent adminis trati ons of govern­ ment, through recreat ion grants, or lotteries funds, have been provided to assist the comm unitie s. The 2784 government backed them and helped them to put a wing on the side of their hall so that the modern society could drink in the dance hall instead of dri nk­ ing either in the basement, or out in the car, or on the way, or at home before they got to the partic ular func­ tion.

So we have a society that has changed and accepts that kind of li festyle and supported by every­ one by the appearance in the way in which it's gone over. So government really have helped that kind of process take place. The facilities the Min ister refers to, health, safety, I think is certainly a point that has to be agreed to as well. The respon sibility by the permittee, I think, has to be the key to what we're talking about when it comes to an infract ion of the regulations, because the point I was trying to make is that if I have a family do and I break the law or I'm in an infraction of the

part ic­ ular permit that I have, I'm the one that should be penalized. It shouldn't be the people that are going to rent the hall next week for their fami ly, who aren't able to have that parti cular funct ion because of the actions that carried out and that's the point I'm trying to make. If the Mini ster, I think only being the reasonable person that he is, he should I think be subject to that same considerat ion or agree to that. HON. R. PENNER: I think we are agreed in general.

It'll be a question of seeing what we can develop and come forward with for the next Session in terms of any changes that may be required to the Acts and Regulat ions. MR. J. DOWNEY: The point I'm trying to make, I don't think it needs a legislative change. I think it's a policy decisio n of the Commission itself. If I leave alcohol on the table in a particular hall past the hour of 1 :30, then there's some parti cular penalty that I have to pay and the penalty that I've seen imposed is that for the next three months the hall can't have a li cence or there can't be alcohol served. I don't think that's correct.

I think the individ ual who created the infraction or was in violation of the permit should be charged in a way and not the next groups of people that want to rent the hall next week for their daughter's wedding or their son's wedding anni versary or whatever. That's the point I want to make and I would think it's a matter of Commission policy rather than a legislative or a regu­ lation change.

The point I'm trying to make is, I think I have a situatio n in my own constituency right now where that kind of problem has developed and I will be getting back to the Minis ter after I get more detailed information on it, if that is in fact the case. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERC IER: Just to revert to the price increases once more, I just want to make a final comment. I think the Minis ter responsible for the Comm ission has to fend off the desires of the Minis ter of Finance almost on an annual basis to try to achieve more revenue in his budget.

We have a situation here where with the price increases that came into effect in the beginning of May, the revenue from the Commission to the gov­ ernment would have gone up to $98 million; that is the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 figure the Attorney-General indica ted. That, in itself, would have been at least approxi mately a 10 percent increase in profit from the Commission. To then exact from the consumers of Mani toba a further $20 milli on, Mr. Chai rman, I think is laying it on a li ttle heavy on the consumer in Mani toba and I would simply urge the Attorney-General in the future to resist a li ttle more strenuously the requests from the Min ister of Fin ance. Sure, it's an easy item to tax; it's a so-called luxury item.

But there are many people in the province who are customers of the Commission and good cit izens of the province and as a result of this Budget, the pric es have, I think, been unjust ifia bly inc reased and inc reased substanti ally as they will find out starting next week. Mr. Chai rman, on another question. Could the Attorney-General indi cate since his announcement in February of this year or his directive to the Commis­ sion to remove wine and spirits from South Africa from the shelves of outlets, does he have any info rma­ tion as to whether the sales of these pro ducts has gone up or down? HON. R.

PENN ER: There's been a decrease in sales of 35 percent since the announcement of that policy. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chai rman, I just want to indicate and there's no use belab ouring it because I think the Attorney-General knows my position. I believe the consumers in Mani toba should be allowed to choose freely whether they wish to support the products of that particular country. I think it is wrong for the Attorney-General to dir ect the Commission to simply remove them from the shelves. If he believes so strongly, Mr. Chai rman, in his positi on, he should have the forti tude to de-list them completely.

To simply place them on the back shelves is in my view a wrong decisio n. Parti cularly, it is extremely difficult to justify when you look through the price list and you see some of the other count ries whose pr oducts are sold freely on the shelves of the Liquor Control Com­ missio n and the Attorney-General takes no action with respect to them. I think the Attorney-General was aware of my position and this is an item I guess on which we must agree to di sagree. Mr. Chai rman, on another matter.

I asked the Attorney-General a question during question perio d on the establishment of the duty free shop in Emer­ son. I have since seen a newspaper adverti sement, I think on behalf of the Federal Minis ter, inviting appli­ cations to apply to operate that duty free store. I take it from that advertisement that the applications are to go di rectly to the Federal Min ister. The Attorney-General indi cated in response to my questions in the House to the effect that he was work­ ing joint ly with the Federal Mini ster.

Does he not acknowledge that the operation and the approval of the operator of a duty free shop in Manitoba should be him, the Minis ter responsible for the Liquor Control Comm ission in Mani toba, that he has jurisdiction to do that? HON. R. PENNER: The duty free shop in the fir st instance is not necessa rily a li quor store. The duty free shop - the name is des criptiv e - is a shop from which goods sold are sold to Ameri cans leaving the country on a duty free basis. No w, that comes within the jurisdiction of the Min ister of Natio nal Revenue.

The moment the would-be proprietor or any would­ be proprietor wants to sell li quor, then that comes within provincial jurisdictio n. He cannot sell one ounce of liq uor or one milliliter of liquor or any com­ bination of ounces and millilit ers of liq uor without being lic ensed by the Manitoba Liquor Control Commissi on. So the working arrangement as it were or the under­ standing that has been fully accepted by the Minis ter of Nati onal Revenue, Mr.

Romkey, is that when they look at the applications for running a duty free shop and want to consider a number of them, that they cannot tell that person you have a duty free shop and you're able to sell liq uor wi thout us having agreed that the prop osed franchise holder - if I use that term as generally descriptive - that you can sell liquor unless we say so. MR. G. ME RCIER: I take it then, Mr. Chai rman, there will be a joint approval of the operat or - each side has a veto? HON. R. PENNER: In effect, that is right. That is the effect of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE : Mr.

Chai rman, I don't know whether this has been disc ussed or not and I haven't had time to go back to some of the other reports. In reports in previous years, the convictions and the fines imposed were broken down and at one stage, they showed a staggering diffe rence between rural and the City of Winnip eg, the charges lodged by the rural and by the City of Winnip eg. I just wonder if you'd have that information at your fingertips or what that relation­ ship is now. It's not broken down this year. I'm not criticiz ing the amounts of the fines or the convictio ns.

I realize a lot of the convictions were probably cit y residents that were charged with the offence outside of the city, but there was a stagge ring differ ence at one stage. I just wondered if that was still the case or if that gap had been closed because as the Minis ter knows, in rural areas with rural detachments, it doesn't take long to get to know everyone in town and it's pretty easy to get a con victio n if you need one, if you have a quota to fill.

I just wondered if there was any breakdown on the convictions by the City Police and by the RCMP because half of our population lives in the City of Winnip eg and half of it's rural. At one stage, there was a tremendous imbalance between the amount of fines levied in the rural areas and the amount levied in the city. 2785 HON. R. PENNER: I'm sorry, Mr. Blake - convictions for what? MR. D. BLAKE: Liquor offences. Prosecutions under the Act by the RCMP and by the City Police. HON. R. PENNER: And there are more in the country than in the cit y? MR. D. BLAKE: Tremendously, a stagge ring differ-

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 ence, like about 75 percent in the rural and 25 percent in the city. I can't remember the figures because I just picked up -(Interjection)- about 20 to 1. Two or three years ago, they broke it down but I notice it's not broken down now and I didn't have time to go for the other report. HON. R. PENNER: I didn't know that the moral fibre of rural society had deteriorated to that extent. I'm shocked to hear it. MR. D. BLAKE: It's not really that. That's my point in making the question up.

I don't want to say that you can drive around the City of Winnipeg bouncing off curbs and never get stopped, but you try it in the rural area and see how far you get. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, I don't have the current breakout of figures and I'll endeavour to get them, but I would certainly agree that those figures do not represent a different attitude towards the law or a different approach to the law as between people who live in rural areas and city dwellers.

I would expect and I admit this is speculative that something the member said is right: namely, that it's law enforcement which really explains statistics of that kind, as it so often is where you have, for whatever reason, an easier kind of area to patrol and law enforcement is therefore better. The statistics for any given crime will tend to rise and it's not a rise in the crime rate so much as it is in more effective law enforcement up to a point where it gets marginal and indeed, this is something that is farily well known to criminologists generally.

They are very careful when they examine statistics as to whether or not they really demonstrate an increase in crime or an increase in the effectiveness of law enforcement, so I really think that's what happening there. MR. D. BLAKE: I just wanted to make that point, Mr. Chairman, before moving on to reinforce what the Member for St. Norbert has said about the South Afri­ can wines being kept under the shelf or in the back shop.

I think that move hasn't really served any pur­ pose whatsoever unless you're going to go all the way and remove some of the other brands from countries that have other offences or other policies that aren't in agreement with our philosophy. By removing South African wines only, I think its been rather a foolish move. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I just wanted to make a comment with regard to when you are considering changes with the occasional permits.

I have spent a good many years in the hospi­ tality industry and I feel that to a point the Membe rf or Arthur has a point, but by the same token, I feel that the hall owner, regardless of who he is, whether it's a private person or a legion or a community centre, they have a certain responsibility too. They are beneficiar­ ies by way of the rent that they charge and they have a responsibility towards that and I just hope that you give some consideration to that when you're consider­ ing any changes in the occasional permit.

I know about five or six years ago, there was in the west end of Winnipeg, one of the places, their licence or their permit to operate was taken away from them and there were a great number of people who were inconvienced in that there's no way that they in the time they were given could relocate, not necessarily their social, but their wedding reception. They had an awful time. They restricted them for this particular business for about three months and people were really in dire straits. HON. R.

PENNER: I would thank the member for his suggestion as to where the responsibility lies and I don't want to be taken as having said that I see a clear line between fire, safety and health on the one side and the way in which the occasion is run on the other. I do agree that the hall owner who is renting the hall for profit, for gain, must bear some responsibility.

One of the reasons for that is it is not possible except at enormous cost for the inspection staff of the Liquor Control Commission to be Johnny-on-the-spot throughout an evening or on any given evening, and the hall owner has to know that to some extent that if indeed there's a spot check and there's an infraction, that there may be fairly serious consequences. That will tend, one hopes, and indeed there is some expe­ rience to prove that it will make the hall owner himself or herself or itself, through one of its agents, more effectively patrol the occasion. 2786 MR. R. NORD MAN: Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To carry on somewhat with what the Member for Minnedosa indicated to the Honourable Attorney -General, I would like to refer him to pages 10 and 11 of the Annual Report of the Liquor Control Commission which deals with the Chief Inspector's Annual Report. The figures that are given for the last five years have indicated approximately between 9,000 and 10,000 convictions per year have been registered in the province.

I was wondering if the Minister could provide us with: (1) the number of convictions that were secured by the RCMP; (2) the number of convictions that were secured by the RCMP that existed within the city limits; (3) the number of convictions that were secured by the City of Winnipeg Police and; (4) the number of convictions by the Municipal Police. HON. R. PENNER: I will take that as notice as if it were a question in the House and provide the member with that information at the earliest opportunity. MR. H.

GR AHAM: I would think that when the Minis­ ter gets those figures, I would think that he would be quite shocked, as most members are, because I would think that the figure that he will get of the number of convictions by the City of Winnipeg Police will range in the 200 to 300 class and the other 9,000 will be registered by the RCMP. Of those from the RCMP, I think very few will be within the city limits.

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 This indi cates the - I don't think it is a reflection at all on the li festyles of the people of Manitoba, but proba­ bly the degree of effici ency used by the various police forces and the degree of activity that they place on certa in levels of crime. I think you would have to come to the conclusion that the RCMP consider cri mes under The Liquor Control Act and the Criminal Code deal ing with that to be much more important in their activitie s than do the City of Winnip eg Police.

The Attorney-General, being the Chief Law Officer of the province, I think should take cogniza nce of that and I would hope that he would consider it quite seriously. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Attorney-General some questions on the recommen­ dations of the Mi chener Advisory Committee Report. Firstly, does the Attorney-General intend to imple­ ment the recommen dation that the legal drinking age in Manitoba be raised from 18 to 19 years? HON. R.

PENNER: I have not yet developed a pos ition on that recommen dation and any position that will be developed will be that of the Government and Caucus.

I made a decisio n, given the length of time I've been in office, and am under taking to try in terms of legisla­ tion to fulfil! election promises that with respect to The Liqu or Control Act, I would deal substantially in this Session if I could, and I hope with the co-operation of the Oppos ition, with min or amendments, and any­ thing major such as the example given or the question of advert isin g on TV in prime time hours and others of the major Michener recommendat ions, that they would not be dealt with at this Session.

So that, in fact, they have not been di scussed at Cabinet level of Caucus and indeed I have not, myself formed an individ ual opinion. MR. G. MERC IER : Mr. Chairman, could the Attorney­ General indi cate whether he supports the recommen­ dation that a photo identification card be issued to all persons upon reaching the legal age for drinking. I believe the Comm ission had undertaken a study of iden tificatio n card programs in other provinces and that information should be available now. HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, on that one, I'm inclined to support the implementation of that recommenda tion and it's just a question of looking at the mechanics of it, how it can be made effe ctive, what the cost is and when it will be made effective, but that suggestion indeed is a good one. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the report recom­ mended that the Commission should study this area further to ascerta in the long-term viability of privately operated specially wine stores. Has the Commission undertaken that study? HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, the Commission has been working on that particular proposal quite actively and had hoped to locate a specially wine store in a prime area on the basis of market research. It's expectat ions were somewhat dashed when it was unable to secure a lease on what it thought would be an appropriate area. As a result the Commission, I'm advised, is look­ ing at another pos sibility and one which I think has merit.

It has been tried elsewhere with some success and that is, rather than have a specialty wine store, to pick perhaps three prime targets to begin with and have within an existing li quor store an area that can be done up as a wine shop that would carry specialty wines and be known to those who are interested in speci alty wines, a select stock of specialty wines. So in effect, we would have three smaller it is true, but nevertheless, three spec iality wine stores if we tar­ geted three particular areas to begin with. MR. G. MERC IER: This would be stores operated by the Commission? HON. R.

PENNER : Yes, stores operated by the Commission. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Chairman, does the Attorney­ General support the recommen dation that the current ban on TV adve rtising before 10:00 p. m. at night be removed and that new regulat ions be instituted? HON. R. PENNER: This is again a major policy ques­ tion which has not yet been considered by the Cabinet or Caucus and in which I have not developed a po siti on. MR. G. MERCIER : Mr. Chairman, does the Attorney­ General support the recommendation that the supper hour closing in beverage rooms be made opti onal? HON. R.

PENNER: That suggestion has some merit and it's one that we want to look at a li ttle further to make sure of all of its implicati ons. I am aware of the fact that it may be apprehended that there is an ele­ ment of discrimin ation with respect to beverage rooms, in that the mandatory closing only applies to beverage rooms. It does not apply to cocktail rooms, for exam­ ple, and it is someth ing that is under considerati on, but there'll be nothing brought forward on it at this Session. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I assume that in the questions from the Member for St.

Norbert, not only questions, but indications of his own po siti on, and I just want to make a few sim ilar points to the Attorney­ General in regard to the Michener Report, that I don't think it is worth the time of day of the Attorney­ General or the Assembly to consider raising the drink­ ing age. We've gone through this exercise before when the Conservatives were in power. The Member for Emerson brought in a Private Members' Resolu­ tion which eventually failed and it's simply not a solu­ tion.

If it were a solution, then we may as well raise the drinking age to 65 and logic would dic tate that, there­ fore, there wouldn't be anybody drinking until they were senior citiz ens' age. I think it made great sense when the age of majority was changed in the Schreyer ad minis tration to have the drinking age changed to 21. It's a fact that most 2787

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 young people drink when they're teenagers, starting at 13, 14 or 15 regardless of what the law is and regard­ less of whether it's 21 or 19 or 18, they're going to start drinking as teenagers despite that and the effect of such a law would be nonexistent other than to cause some general turmoil. There'd be no practical effect. I would say to the Attorney-General that I would like to hear more sometime about what he intends to do about cracking down on drinking drive rs.

That's where he should spend his energies and also there was, I think, an excellent campaign a few years ago, prior to '77 at least, about encouraging people to drink in moderation. That was sponsored by the MLCC and I don't know whether that campaign is still going, but I think there should be a program like that in effect. I also, as an indivi dual, am not in favour of changing the ban on late nig ht TV advert ising. That measure was brought in here some, I guess, 15 years ago or whatever. I remember Doug Campbell was the one who introduced it. I think it was a good measure.

It was designed for the purpose of dis couraging the encour­ agement of young people to drink. The assumpt ion was, correct or otherwise, that people are stimulated by adver tising and that the less advert ising around encouraging people to drink tile better and that when the advert ising was relegated to late at nig ht - maybe I'm not speaking precisely here - but that adver tising would only be allowed in a certain period of time so that young people wouldn't see it and therefore wouldn't be encouraged to drink. I don't think any change is required in that parti cular area.

So, the Mic hener Report is interesting and some of the views of the members of the Oppos ition are interesting in regard to drinki ng, but I think many of them are impractical and backward looking. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Attorney-General. The Liquor Commission has embarked on a program of convert ing the gov­ ernment li quor stores from the old system to a new system of self-serve. Could the Minis ter indicate how many of the gov­ ernment owned li quor stores now are self-serve and which ones are not? HON. R.

PENNER: I haven't got the precise figures, but there's been an enormous change. I think that roughly speak ing, about 45 of the stores are self-serve now and there's only somewhere about eight or nine that are still of the old style. MR. H. GR AHAM: That naturally begs the second question. What is the policy of the Comm ission towards the conversion of those eight or nine that are still left? Is it their intention to convert them to self serve as well? HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Could I get an indic ation from the Attorney-General then when the people in the Russell area can expect the liq uor store there to be converted to self-serve? 2788 HON. R. PENNER: I'm advised that there's a target date within the next two years, so soon. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (

a) Minis ter's Salary $20,600-pass. Resolution No. 18 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,533,600 for Attorney-General for General Adm inistration for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983-pass. That concludes the Attorney-General's Estimates. I believe there's another standing rule that Committee will sit again this evening at 8 o'clock? HON. R. PENNER: That's right, yes. May I thank all members who have partici pated in the dis cussion of these Estimates over the last couple of days.

I think they have been produ ctive, construc­ tive and very helpful, I think maybe in a sense a model of the way Estimates should go. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, J. Storie: Cont inuing with Item No. 6, the Universities Grants Commission, 6.(

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minis­ ter could indi cate how many foreign students attended Manitoba universities last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. M. HEMPHIL L: Mr. Chairman, 1,223. MR. G. FILMON: Is any consideration currently being given to raising the tuition fees for foreign students attending univer sities in Manit oba? HON. M. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, that decisio n will be up to the universities and it's my understand ing that they have not given consideration to a change at this time. MR. G. FILM ON: Mr.

Chairman, yesterday when I was quoting fig ures on the costs of tuition for univer sitie s across the country, or at least making the comparison, and when I said that Manitoba was the lowest and the Minis ter corrected me and said there were, I believe, two or three other provinces in which university fees were lower, I was actually looking at a study of foreign student tuition fees, and in that case I believe we are the lowest in the entire country.

It brings up the point, that since the cost per student is approximately $5,400 per year at Manitoba universi­ ties and that's an aggregate average I guess and it would vary, I'm sure, from faculty to faculty, many of them being much more expensive to train - the fact of the matter is, that in rough mathematics I guess that works out to over $6 million of cost to the taxpayer by virtue of the fact that foreign students attending uni­ vers ities here are not paying the full cost of what is required for their education. I real ize that there are

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 arguments on all sides about our obligation to do some

part in foreign aid, shall we say, or aid to under­ developed countries and so on and so forth. Mind you, many of these students may not be coming from necessarily just Third World countries or what we might consider to be underdeveloped countries. At the same time, of course, I think it's also known that even those who do come from underdeveloped coun­ tries are, to a large extent, probably coming from fairly much the upper income group in those.

Oftentimes they are coming from the privi leged group in any case and the cost of their coming over here in terms of what they spend to live here and so on and travel, is such that pro bably there isn't any great justification in keeping the fees low for that purpose.

There is, of course, the argument I suppose, that it enriches the cultural exposure of our own Manitoba students to have the opportunity to mix with foreign students and so on, but I'm just wondering if the Minis­ ter or her department through the Un iversities Grants Commission has given consideration to this, to the equity perhaps, from the viewpoint of the Manitoba taxpayer of having, as I say, something like $6 million worth of training done for outside students, most of whom will not become taxpayers in Manitoba and are not obviously children of Manitoba taxpayers, and just exactly whether or not the Minister sees a need or a reason perhaps, to intercede here and have some discussions along this topic.

I look at the particular

article I have that makes the comparison and it ranges from a level of about $4, 100 in Quebec that's being charged for foreign students, $4, 100 per year, to Ontario which has moved its fees upwards as of this year to a level of between $2,700 and $4.400 per year, depending on the course. I note from the

article that the decision was made by the Minister in Ontario, so I'm just wondering how the Minister is indicating there is a difference in Manitoba, where the universities are permitted to make their own decisions with respect to this, when really it is a very large cost to the taxpaye r. HON. M. HE MPH ILL: Mr. Chairman, first of all I would just indicate that univer sities do set fees and these fees would not be seen in any other light. I would expect that they would continue to make decisions on all fees. The point that the Member for Tuxedo is raising though is one that we have recognized.

The student population, or the numbers of students coming in, have not significantly increased in the last three or four years, so there isn't a tremendous influx and that's not the major concern. But what we have real­ ized, and I think he is suggesting, is that we are one of the few provinces that doesn't have a differential. Quebec I think, is charging full costs.

What we are anticipating is that there is a possibility that the few provinces who do not have the differential will be the ones that the foreign students will want to go to and that factor may cause a significant increase in the numbers of students applying. So we have iden­ tified it as something that is of concern and I have been in discussions with the Un iversities Grants Commission and the Presidents. We have identified this as an area of some concern that they are presently looking at and I think they will be looking at it very seriously. I'm not sure I asked for leave of the Committee for a moment, Mr.

Chairman, to communicate to the members of this House, that this morning at the Uni­ versity of Manitoba Convocation, Dr. Wes Lorimer, who is the Chairman of the Un ive rsities Grants Com­ mission and sitting here before us, was recognized and honoured. His years and contribution to educa­ tion in the Province of Manitoba were honoured this morning when he was given an Honourary Doctor of Law Degree and we want to congratulate him on this great honour and thank him for his significant and long contribution to the people and the children of Manitoba. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly, on behalf of members of the Opposition, would like to join the Minister in congratulating Dr. Lorimer on that signifi­ cant recognition for his contributions to education in this province over many decades and we certainly agree with the Minister that it is a very well-deserved honou r. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I also would like to add my congratulations to Dr. Lorimer and maybe somebody could tell us how we will address him now since he has three PhDs, I was going to suggest "Dou­ ble Dr. Lorimer" but it may be "Triple Dr. Lorimer" at this point. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I'm pleased that the Minister is, through the Grants Commission and through her meetings with the presidents of the uni­ versities, going to look into this because when I saw the

article and the information with the great disparity between us and the other provinces I, too, would have the fear that the numbers would increase, that many more would seek Manitoba out as the place to take their university training and, in fact, that the cost to Manitoba taxpayers would rise even more substan­ tially as a result of that sort of thing happening.

So I'm pleased that the Minister is going to look into that, or at least open some avenues of discussion on that topic, because I think that it is one that certainly will be an important factor, particularly when the govern­ ment is looking at a prospect of cutbacks in federal transfer payments and so on and these will, of course, have some long- range effects on our ability to fund post-secondary education in Manitoba.

We will have to look at all avenues to ensure that our revenues and costs are being closely scrutinized. 2789 There is a problem, I believe, at the Un ive rsity of Manitoba - I don't believe, I know - a problem in the ability of the Faculty of Administrative Studies to really do all the things it wants to do. I know that it, by all yardsticks suffers from space problems, resource problems of all sorts and it is, of course, one of the faculties in greatest demand now and indeed, I sup­ pose, one of the faculties for which the opportunities for graduates remain at a very high level.

So I know that there's all sorts of things going on. There is a fund raising activity being carri ed on by the faculty itself through the auspices of the university and all sorts of other opportunities of fund raising within the business community and corporate community and so on. Specifically, is the Minister concerned about this and

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 does she have any thoughts about what may happen in the future with respect to the Faculty of Administra­ tive Studies? HON. M. HEM PHI LL: Mr. Chairman. one of the ways of giving some relief to some of the problems of that department in terms of facilities will be the completion of the Earth Sciences Building. They're going to use some of the space to relieve the pressure there. Unfor­ tunately, it takes a while to build the building and that solution. I suppose, is a little way down the line.

We recognize the pressures and the advancement in that department and I suppose feel that apart from approv­ ing the priority facility that was established as the most needed space for the university, that the univer­ sities have been given a reasonably good financial package this year in order to address their most serious and important problems and that those deci­ sions on how to utilize the money will be made and can best be made by them. MR. G. FILMON: Well, I think it isn't as simple as that, Mr. Chairman.

I know that the method by which the funds are allocated within the university's budget pro­ cess at the U of M is such that if the Minister feels that by global block funding she is going to address spe­ cific problems, it's not possible.

Their budgeting mechanism is such that for faculties that have a dem­ onstrated need for additional funds there is a certain allocation of the budget that is based on pluses and minuses, sort of add-ons and credits, and all that it eventually does, even though a faculty may demon­ strate specific great needs over and above all of those of the rest of the faculties, they may end up getting an additional few percentage points more than their normally allocated share; it's a complicated system. I know I've talked with Dr. Campbell in the past, Dr. Naimark briefly, when I was out there not too long ago. and so on.

It just isn't possible through the global block fund­ ing approach to address specific problems. I don't know whether the Minister has any thoughts about that, but I know that it was a problem that we faced when we were in office.

Firstly, we did not want to tamper with the auto­ nomy of the university to run its own affairs. but secondly, where there are areas of demonstrated spe­ cific critical need more so than others. one can't address those needs through the normal budgetary process that the university has by simply adding to the package, because of the added amount a very, very small percentage will go to address the specific prob­ lem that you may be faced with. The same thing holds true in faculties in the past that have been in danger of losing their accreditation.

It was very difficult through the normal budget process to give them specific funds to help them with their problems and I think it needs to be looked at more closely. Perhaps the Minister, again, will have to enter into discussions with the universities to see how it can be addressed outside of the normal budget process. HON. M. HEM PHIL L: Mr.

Chairman. it appears to me that the Member for Tuxedo is suggesting that the government decide what they believe is important or what the needs are for the university and perhaps direct fund, give money directly to the universities for those programs and direct them to put them on. There has been some that has been done to a very minor degree and very unique situation, I suppose the Engi­ neering was an example.

In the discussion with the presidents of the universities we have been talking about the process and how we do communicate about what we each believe the needs are to be, so that there is some passing of information, thoughts. values and priorities between us. There is an opportunity for that since I think they do see that kind of direct funding as interference with local autonomy and would prefer that it doesn't happen. When I talked to them I was saying we have to look to see why it happened. You know. what were the problems at the time that triggered that kind of action, which was unusual.

If that's not the best way of going about it, then how do we handle identification of prob­ lems and concerns without routing it that way, but by having a chance to talk about it together so that you can perhaps use the existing route and process, but still have some opportunity to address the problems.

I think there's agreement to have fairly open discus­ sion by people at all levels; that we can have fairly open discussion and communication between the Grants Commission. the universities and government, where people know the decisions that are being made and the reasons that they're being made, which I think is important for them to know if funding is coming for certain things, what it is the government believes and why they've made the decisions that they have made.

So we have begun to open up opportunities for dis­ cussion so that if there was another area like that with Engineering where there was concern, we would have an opportunity to sit down and discuss it and have information go back and forth. MR. G. FILMON: As I say, I acknowledge that there's always that fine line, that one doesn't want to pass beyond. of really becoming the agency for setting the university's priorities. That aspect of its autonomy is very important to those at the university.

I know that the Minister will have to treat that very gently and very carefully. 2790 But there still is the question of having to solve certa in specific problems in the past; Engineering was a problem; Dentistry, I believe, had some serious problems in the past with major requirements for replacement of equipment and so on. Ultimately. it may be that the Minister will find that the university admin istration themselves recognize those problems as being a priority but can't, within their own budge­ tary process, address them adequately.

So there may be some receptivity to the Minister involving herself with the process through the Grants Commission and finding out just exactly how, working together, the problem can best be solved. The topic of the School of Music at Brandon - and I'm asking this question on behalf of the Member for Turtle Mountain -I'm not totally familiar with the situa­ tion but I know that he asked a question earlier on this year and the Minister responded to the effect that a trust fund was to have been set up for money that had been allocated by the previous administration and money that was in this budget and so on.

Then, later on in the Minister of Finance's Estimates he asked the

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 Minister how that trust fund worked and the Minister indicated that there wasn't a trust fund. It wasn't able to have been set up. So he wants to know just exactly what is happening with respect to the funding for that facility at Brandon University. HON. M. HEMPHIL L: Mr. Chairman, the Un iversities Grants Commission has authority that most other departments do not have when it comes to not spend­ ing money that exists in an existing budget. For most of the departments, the money becomes surplus and it lapses and if you don't spend it, you lose it. The Uni­ versities Grants Commission under

Section (a)(4) -I'll just read you this so you know what they are entitled to do - it says, "If at any time the balance of the credit of the fund is in excess of the amount that is required for immediate purposes of the Commission, the Commission shall pay over the excess to the Minister of Finance for investment for and on behalf of the Commissio n.

" And goes on in (8)(5) to say that "They may establish and maintain reserves deemed necessary or advisable for its purposes and any money set aside for the purpose of any such reserve shall be paid to the Minister of Finance for investment on behalf of the Commission." It could be that when I used the words 'trust fund,' knowing that the money had been set aside and I was thinking that the words 'in trust' were not an accurate description, the money that was held by the Universi­ ties Grants Commission, the $1 million, has been turned back to the Department of Finance for holding. Mr.

Chairman, I've just been informed by staff that the money was turned back; I thought it was being held. It is not being held and has been allowed to lapse. MR. G. FILMON: What does that mean with respect to the development of this facility then? What's going to happen? HON. M. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, it doesn't have any effect on the government's commitment or inten­ tion to make available the funds that we have commit­ ted ourselves to for the building of the music facility at the Brandon Un iversity. It has not altered our decision or our commitment or our intention to follow through with that. MR. G.

FILMON: Could the Minister indicate what is the present timetable then? What is the expectation for the development? HON. M. HEMPHIL L: Mr. Chairman, it's very difficult to say what the timetable might be, since the decision will be largely determined by the success of the fund raising drive, I believe, the private fund raising drive that the university has presently undertaken. It's $4.4 million which is a significant amount of money to raise in the private sector.

I might just indicate as a bit of background that when they first applied - it was in 1977, I believe - the first application, originally, was for an addition to the music building. Subsequent to that, they have submit­ ted significant changes of plan. The first major change was that it not be an addition, but it be a new building which was about double the 16,000 square feet of existing space.

Subsequent to that there has been 2791 another fairly major change where they have taken it from the 32,000 square feet up to about 53,000 square feet, so the project has grown considerably from its original application and inception and the board of governors of the university have undertaken a major fund raising drive in order to provide most of the funds required for the new building. It's my understanding, I believe the communication to the Grants Commission was that they had about a $.5 million, not in hand, but in committed funds. Just last week was the last com­ munication on that matter. MR. G.

FILMON: Is $4.4 million the total cost of the project or is that the amount that they have to raise and if so, I've forgotten, what is the provincial commitment? HON. M. HE MPHI LL: The provincial contribution, Mr. Chairman, is $1.6 million and the $4.4 million is the amount of money that Brandon Un iversity has com­ mitted themselves to raise. MR. G. FILMON: So it's a $6 million project. HON. M. HEM PHIL L: A $6 million project. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister cou ld indi­ cate what the status is of the Winter sports complex at the university and the library addition.

I think the library addition may be completed now, I'm operating from memory, but I know that away back in the time when I was active on the Alumni Association, we made the commitment to raise certain funds for the dual project of the winter sports complex and the library, both to be proceeded with and they were based on a certain formula of matching funds from the govern­ ment, $2.00 for every $1. 00 raised by the university itself, and I noted in the paper yesterday that the Max Bell Foundation has offered $2.5 million and the sports complex is now going to be named after Max Bell as a result of that rather large contribution that they are making to it.

I know again there, because of the length of time in the development, that the costs have risen dramati­ cally over the years from what was originally going to be about somewhere under a $10 million expenditure. I'm sure it's much beyond that, if the Minister could just bring me up-to-date on that. HON. M. HEM PHILL: Mr. Chairman, it's my under­ standing that the commitment was, for every $1.00 raised they would get an additional $2.00 and that commitment was met and they used the money for the library.

The library is presently completed and they are doing a fund-raising program themselves for the sports complex, which is partially completed. MR. G. FILMON: What is the projected cost of the sports complex and what was the cost of the library? HON. M. HEM PHILL: $3 million for the library and $8 million for the sports complex. I was further advised that the sports complex is expected to be almost com­ pleted and ready for the fall term, except for the running track.

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 MR. G. FILMON: What are the areas of priority needs at the univ ersity? I'm not sure that the Min ister has agreed with me that the Faculty of Ad minis trative Stu­ dies is an area of priority need. She indi cated what was going to happen that would allow it to get addi­ tional space but at the various universities, all three of them, what are the areas of priority need that are being worked on at the moment? HON. M. HEMP HILL: Mr. Chairman, the priority needs I think, might be explained in terms of new progra m, or expansions of program might be the best way.

At the Uni versity of Manitoba, first of all, there will be some space freed -the Ad ministrative Studies will get additio nal space when the Earth Sciences Centre is com pleted - and they do long-term planning, is the other point I wanted to make, for their facilitie s and it really does look down the road, not just next year but for a four or five year period, and at all of their needs.

I imagine that they recognized ahead of time some of the pressures, maybe not all of them, but on the Ad mi­ nistrative Studie s, and dealt with that in terms of hav­ ing the Earth Sci ences Centre come in which would free up additi onal space when it's com pleted for the Ad ministrative Studie s. I suppose we're often a li ttle bit behind the need, the facilities often don't keep pace with the exact tim ing of the need. The Uni versity of Mani toba has received $500,000 in terms of new programs.

I think that it is the first time this year in about four years that the universities have received new program money, spec ific money, that they can allocate to new programs. Prior to that they could put in new progra ms if they wanted to, but they had to take it out of operating, had to take it out of existing money. The Univ ersity of Mani toba has been allocated $500,000 and they have program improvements in Ad minis trative Stud ies, Engineering and Health Sci ences, those are the three areas, with the distribu­ tion of the $500,000 to be deter mined by the university.

The Uni versity of Winnip eg has selective program expansion to meet additi onal needs and high demand programs in Bio logy, Chemistry, Business Comput­ ing, Statistics and Psychology. They also have an increase in requireme nts for lib rary, labour relations and physical plant and they have $123,000.00. Brandon Uni versity has received $50,000 in funds to assist in the continued establ ishment of the Mature Student Centre, and St. Boni face College has $10,000 to assist in expansion of the athletic progra ms, for a total of $633,900 for new prog rams, distrib uted among the universities and the colleges. MR. G.

FILMON: Do these decisio ns require the approval of the Univ ersities Grants Com mission? I see the staff are nodding yes. So what role does the Mini ster feel she will exercise through the UGC in looking at the poss ibilit y of dupl ication of offerings in terms of the discussion yesterday, of whether or not the U of W would now start up a Faculty of Physical Education as a result of the fie ld house decisio n, and so on?

Sim ilarly, what role will the Minis ter play through the UGC in looking at the duplication of ser­ vices and offerings in ter ms of faculties amo ng the three univ ersitie s, what sort of role will this Minis ter play? 2792 HON. M. HEM PHILL: Mr. Chairma n, the Commis­ sion, by statute, has to approve all new prog rams.

I think that in terms of talk ing about not duplicatin g programs or expansion of prog rams in a numb er of universities, the Commission does have a large role to play and I think in terms of co mmunicating direction and dir ection of government funds that might be made avai lable, and acti vities that are going to be undertaken, that will have an impact on the job that univers ities do and I can give some examples of what I'm thinking of. I think the government has some respons ibility to co mmunic ate those things.

In terms of prog ram, for instance, when we were implementing the Special Needs Program in the school system, it is very important and when we're improving the day care, bringing in The Day Care Standards Act, I think that we must let the univ ersities and the Univ ersities Grants Commission know the dir ection govern ment is going in, so that they can acco mmodate the needs that are going to be placed on the system as a result of expanded or changed progra ms. I think that is one role that the government can play. There is another role.

When we're talk ing about capital facilitie s, for instance, we all have a very impor­ tant job to do in terms of revitalization of the inner core and the importance of all buil ding that goes on in the downtown area and its relationship to that revitaliza­ tion.

That is a comm itment by this govern ment and it is an area where I also see us com munic ating that if we're going to put money into capi tal projects that when buil ding facilities we have to take into consider­ ation and attempt to revitalize the inner core and that we would like to encour age the bu ilding of facilities that enhance and improve the quality of life for the people in the downtown area. I think we are not jus t passive players.

I do not believe that although we have a Un iversities Grants Com mission with a statute and with respons ibilit es that government itself is a totally passive player, where we do not co mmunicate priorities or dir ections. I believe that we have a respons ibilit y to do that and that we have been setting up opport unities to have open discussio ns between the univ ersities and our­ selves in order to do that. MR. G. FllMON: Mr.

Chairman, as part of our discus­ sion on the whole area of the universities in Manitoba, a numb er of ti mes the Min ister has made the com­ ment, and certainly I think we all recogn ize the chang­ ing dem ographics, the changing client groups from which university students are coming now and the di fferent situa tions in which university students find themselves, i.e., sin gle parents going back to univer­ sity or people going back to university after their fa mi­ lie s are grown up and so on.

We've talked about some of the difficulties in funding the universiti es, the prob­ lem of additi onal funds not necess arily helping out spec ific situa tions, not being able, adequately, through the present system to address spec ific prob lems because of the difficul ty of treading on the university's autonomy and so on. All of these things are obviou sly con tinuin g proble ms; they're not ones that have cropped up in the last six months or a year. Many of them have sort of developed over the decade. The entire role of the Uni versity, each one with respect to

Thursday, 27 May, 1982 its commu nity that it serves and so on, perhaps the growth and expans ion of the need for a downtown campus kind of thing that is being fulfilled by the Univ ersity of Winni peg, all these things that have changed over the years were leading, I know our government, in fact had lead us to the conclus ion that it was time to strike a task force with some pretty broad objectives and scope to review the whole role of univer sities in Mani toba. What is their funct ion now?

What is it going to be a decade from now and what things ought to be done to ensure that we get maxi­ mum benefit for the entire commu nity of Manitoba out of our universities which are such a vital and impor­ tant resource to us. We were, I know, at the stage of appointing a task force and looking for the right person to chair it as we left office.

I'm wondering if this Minis ter or this gov­ ernment sees the need for this kind of overview and review so that we can go forward through the '80s and towards the end of the century with, perhaps, some long-range plans in mind and some more defined goals for the universities. Does the Minis ter have any­ thing on the back burner at the moment or is anything lik e this being contemplated? HON. M. HE MPHILL : Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I would describe it as actually being on back burner.

I was aware that the former government was consider­ ing naming a task force and I believe that they were looking for a permanent Chairman and being unable to find one that was the major reason for not setting up the task force. It was my understanding that they were going to look at both the planning for the next decade for the univer sities and the role of the Univ ersiti es Grants Commission. I think when they first di scussed it, it was a more narrow examination and then they were thinking along the lines of broadening the Terms of Reference and having a fairly major activity.

I have not, as yet, had ti me to give what I believe is the necessary amount of time to devote to giving con­ sideration to this question. I can say that I do agree that the purpose that you were meeting in terms of looking at the changes coming and the needs and the requi rements and the importance for planning in mak­ ing the necessary changes is something that I agree with. I am not sure at this point what vehicle or mech­ anism I would give consideration to, but I think that it's not a dead issue. It hasn't been dropped or consi dered and decided not to do a review.

I simply have not had time to consider it fully and make a decision on how and when I would lik e to proceed on this issue. MR. CHAIR MAN: 6. (

a) pass; 6. (b)-pass; 6.(c)-pass. That completes the items consi dered under Resolut ion 54. Therefore

be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $133, 592,300 for Educa­ tion, Univ ersities Grants Commission, for the fi scal ending the 31 st day of March, 1983. Cont inuing on page 50, Item 7. Acq uisiti on/Con­ struct ion of Physical Assets. No. 7(

a) Community Col­ leges, 7. (a)

(1) Red River Community College. The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Can the Minis ter indicate just in the beginning where under this

Section is constru ctio n of p