Manitoba Hansard — 9 March 1962 (Sitting 24, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-24

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Le gisl ative Asse mb ly Of Mani to ba DE BATES an d PROCEED IN GS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 24 2: 30 p.m. Friday, March 9, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'c lock, Friday, March 9, 1962 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions MR . CLERK: The peition of Insurance Institute of Winnipeg praying for the passing of

an Act respe'cting the Insurance Institute of Winnipeg. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MR . KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr . Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the special committee appointed to prepare a list of members to compose the standing committee as ordered by the House • MR . CLE RK: Your special committee appointed to prepare a list of members to compose the standing committee as ordered by the House beg leave to present the following as their first report. PRIVILEGES AND ELECT IONS: Hon. Messrs . ROBLIN, EVANS, LYON, WEffi, Messrs.

COWAN , CORBETT , DESJARDINS, DOW, GUTTORMSON, HAMILTON, LISSAM AN , McKELLAR, MARTIN, PAULLEY, PETERS , PREFONTAINE , REID, SCART H, SHEWMAN , STRICKLAND , WAG NER. PUBLIC ACCO UNTS: Hon. Messrs . ROBLIN, CHRISTIANSON, HUTTON , LYON, McLEAN, WEffi , Messrs . ALEXANDER , BJORNSON, CAMPBELL , CORBETT , COWAN , Mrs . FORBES, Messrs. GRAY, HAMILTON, ffiLLH OUSE, HRYHORCZUK, INGEBRIGTSON, KLYM, MOLGAT, ORLIKOW, PAUL LEY , ROBERTS, SCHREYER, SMELLIE , STRICKLAND , WATT, WRIGHT . PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES: Hon. Messrs . ROBLIN, CARROLL , CHRISTIANSON, LYON , WITNEY, Messrs . CORBE TT, DESJARDINS, Mrs .

FORBES, Messrs . GRAY, GROVES , GUTTORMSON, INGEBRIGTSON, JEANNOTTE , JOHNSON (Assi niboia), KLYM, McKE LLAR , ORLIKOW, ROBERTS, SCHREYER , SEABORN , STANE S, TANCHAK, WATT, WRIGHT . AGRICULTURE AND CONSERVATION: Hon. Mess rs . ROBLIN, HUTTON , McLEAN, THOMP SON, WEIR, Messrs . ALEXANDER , CAMP BELL , DOW , Mrs . FORBES , Messrs. FROESE , HAMILTON , HARRIS, HAWRYLUK , JEANNOTT EE, KLYM, McKEL LAR , MOLGAT , Mrs. MORRISON , Messrs. ROBERTS, SCHRE'(ER, SHEWMAN , STRICKLAND, WAG NER, WA TT. MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS: Hon. Messrs . JOHNSON , LYON, THOMPSON, WITNEY, Messrs .

ALE XANDER, COWAN, DESJARDINS , DOW, FROESE , HAMILTON, J"OHNSON (Assiniboia), KLYM, LISSAMAN, Mrs. MORRISON, Messrs. PREFONTAINE, REID, SCARTH, SCHREYER , SHEWMAN, SHOEMAKER , SMELLIE , WAGN ER, WA TT , WRIGHT . LAW AMENDMENTS: Hon. Messrs . ROBLIN, CARRO LL, CHRISTIANSON, EVANS, HUTTON , JOHNSON, LYON, McLEAN, THOMPSON , WEffi, Messrs. ALEXANDER , BJORNSON, CAMPBELL , CORBETT , COWAN , DOW, Mrs . FORBES , Messrs . FROESE , GRAY, GROVES, HARRIS, ffiLLHO USE , HRYHORCZUK, JEANNOTTE, JOHNSON (A ssiniboia) , KLYM, LISSAMAN , McKELLAR , MARTIN, MOLGAT , Mrs. MORRISON, Messrs .

ORLIKOW, PAULLEY , PETERS , PREFON TAINE , ROBERTS, SCART H, SCHREYER, SEABORN , SMELLIE , STANE S, SHOEMAKER , TANCHAK, WAGNER , WRIGHT . PRIVATE BILLS, STANDING ORDERS, PRINTING AND LIBRARY: Hon. Messrs . CARROLL , HUTTON , JOHNSON, Messrs . BJORNSON, COWAN, Mrs. FORBES , Messrs. GUTTORMSON, HAWRYLUK, HRYHORCZUK , INGEBRIGTSON, JEANNOTTE , March 9, 1962 Page 557

PRIVATE BILLS, STANDING ORDE RS, PRINTING AND LIBRARY (Cont'd.): LISSAMAN, Mrs. MORRISON , Messrs. PAULLEY, PETERS , REID , SCARTH, SEABORN, SHOEMAKER, SMELLIE , TANCHAK. INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS : Hon. Messrs . ROBLIN, CARROLL , CHRISTIANSON, EVANS, HUTTO N , THOMPSON, WITN EY, Messrs . DESJARDINS, GROVES , GUTTORMSON , HAMILTON, HARRIS , HILLHOUSE, JOHNSON (Assiniboia) , LISSAMAN, MARTIN, ORLIKOW , PAU LLEY, PETERS , PREFO NTAINE , STANES. STATUTORY REGULAT IONS AND ORDE RS: Hon . Messrs. LYON , McLEAN, CHRISTIANSON, Messrs. GROVES, HILLHOUSE, HRYHORCZUK, ORLIKOW, SCARTH, SMELLIE, WRIGHT. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier)(Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, if I may interrupt the Clerk, perhaps it would be fitting if we took the report as read and we can check it in Votes and Pro- ceedings tomorrow or Hansard to ascertain any details. · MR . ALEXANDER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Arthur , that the report of the committee be received. MR . SPEAKER : I didn't hear your seconder. MR . ALEXANDER: The Honourable Member from Arthur. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declal'ed the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills.

The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR . JAMES COWAN (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill number 62 ,

an Act to amend the Municipal Boundaries Act. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon. MR . R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon) introduced a Bill number 61,

an Act to amend the Bran don Charter. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and iuter a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . A. H. CORBETT (Swan River) introduced Bill No. 63 ,

an Act to validate By-law No . 147 of the Village of Benito, By-law No . 3/62 of the Town of Swan River , By-law No. 1404 of the Rural Municipality of Minitonas, By-law No. 1679 of the Rural Municipality of Swan River , and By-law No. 128 of the Village of Bowsman. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Hamiota. MR . B. P. STRICKLAND (Hamiota) introduced Bill No . 1'5 ,

an Act to incorporate Russell Golf and Country Club. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Committee of the Whole . The Honourable Provincial Secretary. HON . GURNEY EV ANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce & Provincial Secretary) (Fort Rouge): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution standing in my name. Mr .

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House with the Honourable Member for St . Matthews in the Chair. MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the Administrator of the Province of Manitoba having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution recommends it to the House . MR .

CHAffiMAN: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Civil Service Act by providing for the payment from and out of the Consolidated Fund of certain ex penses and a�l or part of the salaries or other remuneration of civil servants while on leave of absence for educational purposes . MR . EVANS: It is required to change the Civil Service Act to enable the plan to be carried out under which the amounts of money which had formerly been appropriated under different departments for the purpose of sending civil servants on leave for educational purposes, Page 558 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) •..• might be concentrated all under the civil service and administered by the Civil Service Commission. That's the purpose of this amendment. MR. EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon) : Mr. Chairman, the wording of this resolution leaves me somewhat puz zled. Why is not the government going to pay, and state whether it's going to pay all or a part?

Is the mind of the government not yet made up whether it will pay all or part of the salaries and remuneration; and if the mind of the government is not made up yet, does that mean that some civil servants will be paid all their salaries and others only part ? MR. EV ANS: If there are no flirther questions, Mr . Chairman -- In some cases the government pays all of the expenses and the salary; in other cases pays only something toward the expenses .

The difference is in the following: that where the civil servant is required to go by the employing authority and take this further training and it is thought to-be worthwhile on the part of the government, the salary is paid and the expenses are paid and the tuition fees are paid. lf, however, a member of the civil service wants to improve himself and the government doesn't agree that it is essential for his work in his present position , he may be permitted to go of his own motion and in that case some contribution is made toward the civil service expenses. MR. PREFONTA INE: Mr.

Chairman, has the government-any assurance , or require any assurance from these civil servants that they will remain in the service of the government? MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it is required that the civi_l servant sign an agreement to continue in the service for two years for each year that the person is absent taking educa tional training. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of The New Democratic Party)(Radis son): Mr .

Chair man, does this mean, I'd like to ask the Honourable the Provincial Secretary -- does this mean that the approval for taking educational leave now will be vested in the Civil Service Commis sion? I understand that previously it was vested in the department and that was the reason for the expenditure being contained within the expenditures of the department. Now it's going to be set up financially different. But does this mean that the Civil Service Commission will hear an appeal from the employee irrespective of what department he works for or will this still have to be done through his departmental head?

MR . EVANS: Certainly the authority to go on educational leave will be granted by the department for which the civil servant works . The question hasn't arisen as to whether there would be an appeal to the Civil Service Commission against the decision of an operating depart ment -- doubtless that would be done.

I think I can say that it would only be fair that if they feel there is a grievance -- if a given civil servant feels there is a grievance then he would take it up with the Manitoba Government Employees Associa tion and they would bring it to the Civil Service Commission or, if necessary, to joint Council . I agree with the principle that there should be some review allowed in any case of grievance. -MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Mr . Chairman , this is the resolution to put into effect the $100 , 000 that was passed the other day under Civil Service Commission -- is that correct? MR.

EVANS: ...•... ....... together. MR. MOLGAT: This will then remove from every department this matter of educational leave, I presume . Now there'll be one single source from which educational leave funds will be handled and the departments themselves will no longer be supplying this through their own funds . Is that . . . . MR. EV ANS: That is certainly the intention to place under the administration of the Civil Service Commission the administration of this educational leave fund.

Now my honourable friend, I don't know whether you meant to suggest that there might be some other kinds of cases in which training is carried on that -- I'm not aware of any. There are not -- I'm assured there are not. So it is the intention then, in the interests of uniform administration and of efficiency and of seeing that the same conditions apply to all departments, that this fund of $1 00, 000 be gathered together all in one place and education leave administered by the Civil Service Commission. MR. MOLGA T: That's not actually a change in. policy .

As my honourable friend indi cated the other day in answering a question, this matter of educational leave was in existence for some time but was being handled through each department on their own appropriation;

whereas now it will be coming in through one appropriation and be handled through the Civil March 9, 1962 Page 559

(Mr . Molgat, con t'd. ) •••. Service . Is there going to be a substantial increase over what was done individually by departments? MR . EVANS: During my estimates I answered the question to the effect that the expendi tures last year were approximately $80, 000, and an amount of $100, 000 provided this year. I_ am not aware that I said the other day there was a change in polic y . -- (Interjection) -- No, I think not; it's rather a: change of administration. . MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr .

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR . W. G. MAR TIN (St. Matthews) : Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris , that the report of the Committee be receive d. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. EVANS introduced the Bill No . 53 ,

an Act to amend the Civil Service Act. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER : Before I call the Orders of the Day, I should wish to introduce to the Members of the Legislative Assembly , 25 pupils from Glenlawn School attending Grade 10 , with their teach er , Mr . Bra madat. Mr . Bram adat is a native of the West Indies and he has been resid ing in Winni peg for six or seven years and he is now a teacher in Glenlawn School .

We wish and hope that the students of Glenlawn School will have a pleasa nt and constructive afternoon with us and we hope and wish that they will be successful in their endeavou,r to ob tain an education in Winnipe g. Orders of the Day. MR . LISSAMAN: Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I have been asked on be half of the Board of Directors and Management , and I suppose one mig ht say, the entire Agri cultural industry of the province , to extend an invitation to the Members of the Legislature to , once again, attend the Mani toba Winter Fair in Brandon.

It has been suggested that Wedne s day, April 4, if it is agreeable to the government , that this would be an excellent time to attend the show . On Wednesday, they are planning to invite representatives of provincial agricultural societies to also be guests of the Manitob a Winter Fair. The prog ram is quite good.

There will be in the morning, the judging sale of bulls; bred sow sale at 1:30; awarding of supreme cattle championships at 7:25; fancy co stume class at 7: 50; four-horse tandem teams to wagon at 8:30; and of course a good pro gram of light horse classes featuring a larg e number of the top jumping and hunter horses from the United Sta tes. I know ,, Mr. Speaker , that the members enjoyed themselves on the la st visit and I feel sure they would like to avail them selves of the opportunity to , once again , attend the Manitob a Winter Fair . MR . ROBLIN: Mr .

Speak er , I think we would all like to apknc:nledge with thanks, the kind invit ation of the Member for Brandon and kind invitation of those for whom he has been speaking, in sugge sting that we should take advantage of the occasion on Wednesday, April 4, to visit the Winter Fair at Brand on .

This is certainly one of the outstanding events of the agricultural year and one in which people all over the province take a great deal of interest and a great deal of pride , and I feel sure that if the Whips consult at �ome suitable time , that arrangements may be made that would meet the desires of members on all sides of the House to visit Bra ndon on that occasion .

And if I may be allowed to do so , I think that I'd like to accept that very kind invitation and say that I expect that a very representative delegation of members from all sides of the House will be in Brandon to enjoy their day with the people of western Manitoba at that time . HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Roc kwood-Ibe rville) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a word at this time.

Last year the Department of Agriculture were able , through the kindne ss of the Canadian National Railwa ys , to make , what I think , most members felt, were very satisfactory arrangement s for transportation up and back and we'll be happy to do so again -- that is , the department will certainly be happy to try and make the same arra ngements, if possib le. I believe that the Member for Brandon will be circulating a peti tion in the House and when we know how many members are planning on making this trip we'll proceed to try and make the same provisions as we did last year.

We certainly hope that there will be good representation from all the parties because we did find that in addition to all the Page 560 March 9, 1962

(Mr . Hutton, cont'd. ) •• •• enjoyment and the hospitality that we received at Brandon, that there was something to be said for the good fel lowship of all the members on that trip up and back. MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Speaker, if I may, just on this one point, we certainly appreciate the invitation very much. The real question will be, I think, whether the leader of the House will grant the House a day off, because that happens to be Wednesday, and that is government business .

So if the leader of the House were to make an announcement in this regard, then I'm sure that our members would be in a position to sign the petition that will be passed by the Member for Brandon. MR .• PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join in thanking the Honourable Member for Brandon and the Brandon authorities for their kind invitation to, once again, go to Brandon during show week. We had a lovely time last year when we were at Brandon. It was very educational. I'm sure that all of us that were there enjoyed it.

I'd like to suggest to the members of the House that notwithstanding whether we are granted the privilege of the House not being in session, or not, that if the rest of the members of the House would take from us who were there last year, what a lovely time we had in every respect , that there wouldn't be a quorum, Mr . Speaker, for you to call the House into session whether or not we receive from the government the authority to be off. And I would recommend to an of the members of the House that they go on this trip if at all possible . MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, just to set any minds at rest· in case there's-any possible doubt, which I find it hard to understand, let me say that the Honourable Membel' for Brandon long ago convinced members on the government side that we should sacrifice our Wednesday on this occasion, as we have on others , to visit Brandon, and I must C{)nfess 1 thought that that point of view was implicit in what I said in the first instance. But in case it isn't, I'd like to make it perfectly clear . MR. EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, I wonder if I might offer a word of advi ce to the honourable members who are going to Brandon to get for themselves the experience that I obtained for myself. I went there as a city boy, not having been brought up on a farm , and I had the very fortunate experience of accompanying the Minister of Agriculture as he moved about the various livestock barns, and I stood and watched him , radiant, transfix ed, a look of ecstasy on his face as he pointed down at an animal on the ground and said: "Isn't that a beautiful pig".

Well I can only recommend to anyone if they want to see joy on a human face, to accompany the Minister of Agriculture as he goes about the pig barn at Brandon. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker , if I may interject on this humorous note, I believe at that particular time the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture was pointing to a steer. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR . DAVID ORLIKOW (St. Jobn's) : Mr . Speak er, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct some questions to the Attorney-General. First, do the Police Magistrate's hold regular meetings; and, if so, how oft en?

Two, who prepares the agenda for the meetings, and what subjects are discussed? Three , do representatives of the Attorney-General's de partment participate in these meetings. And fo ur, is there an attempt made to work out a general and unified approach to the problems of crime faced by the courts by the Magistrates and the Attorney-General's department? HON . STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General)(Fort Garry) : Mr. Speaker , I wish to thank the honourable membe·r for his courtesy in giving me notice of his intention to ask this question.

Briefly , the answers are as follows: Question No . 1 - Yes, the first general Magistrate's conference was held in 1958 , the second in 1960 and plans are being under dis cussion at the present time for a fu rther conference later on this year. The agenda for the meetings is prepared by a letter from the Attorney-General's department going out to all Magistrates asking for the subjects that they wish to have placed on the agenda for general discussion. A committee then composed of the Magistrates is formed to go over the replies, make up the agenda along with other matters that are submitted by the department.

The answer to question No. 3, is 'Yes' . The answer to question No. 4, is 'Yes• , and I may say in that regard that general discussions on unity of approach to problems of crime faced by the courts do take place, and as well, visits take place as an integral part of the agenda to correc tional institutions in Manitoba operated by both the provincial and federal governments. March 9, 1962 Page 561

MR . MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question on the same subject. Are those decisions , if any, being carried out by the Magistrates after they go back to work? MR. LYON: Well , Mr. Speaker, of course each Magistrate decides each case on its own particular facts according to the circumstances as he sees them at the time. For me to gen eralize and say that all the decisions or discussions that they have, have or do not have a bear ing upon their subsequent work.

I just couldn't say that, but one can only presume that common sense would prevail and that if they have gained additional knowledge from these discussions this would follow through in the decisions that they make subsequent to the conference. MR . GRAY: Mr. Speaker, may I ask another question of him ? Such things as pre-sen tence, or a report from the probation officer, is this something new, or is it their own, or are they your instructions , or decided by the annual meetings which they have? MR . LYON: Pre-sentence reports, Mr .

Speaker, are provided by probationofficers to all levels of courts in the province. They are available on a full time basis to the maj-or courts in the province and on call to those other courts , the magistrates who request them . MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Orders of Return. The Honourable Member for St . Joh n's. MR , ORLIKOW: Mr , Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that an order of the House do issue for a Return showing

(1) The number of secondary schools built in each division in the yeaTs 1959-60- tll. (2) the location of each secondary school built in each division . (3) the number of classrooms in eac-h school , (4) the tQtal .government grant towards the building of each school. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a VQice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Gladstone. · MR , NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone) : Mr. Speaker, I noticed that there is an error here that on the question No . 6 on my Order No. 2 should be Item No. 5 in the order No . 1. Shall I read it that way or , ••.

No. 6 of Order No. 2 --No . 4 was in arrears as of December 31, 19 61, well that should read on my first Order. MR , ROBLIN! Mr, Speaker, may I suggest that if my honourable friend is able to oblige perhaps it would be better to allow the Clerk to have the Order reprinted in the proper form - and move it on the next occasion if that would be suitable, and then We'd have it right. MR . SPEAKER: We have three Orders standing in your name. Is it your wish that all three be , . . , , MR. SHOEMAKER: I guess I could proceed with No . 3. MR , SPEAKER: Then we would proceed with it. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing!

(1) The inunber of persons in Manitoba as of January 1, 1962 enrolled for social allowances;

(2) The number of persons as of January 1, 1962 , in receipt of a cash social allowance, and the sum total received by this class in the year ending December 1, 1961;

(3) The number of persons enrolled for social allowances who are not in receipt of a federal pension of any kind; old age assistance, old age security, disability or blind persons ;

(4) The number of persons in re_ceipt of a Medicare Card as of January 1, 19 62;

(5) The number of persons in receipt of a Medicare Card who receive no other social allowances;

(6) Cost of Medicare program for the year ending December 31 , 196 1. MR. SPEAKER : Are you ready for the question? HON, JOHN A. CHRISTIANSON (Minister of Public Welfare)(P ortage la Prairie): Before· you put the question I should clarify that the answer to No , 3 is not available in exactly the form in which it is asked because the information is not recorded in this fashion. Howev er, we can indicate a very close approximation. MR . SPEAK ER: Subject to the explanation, are you ready for the question? Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Speaker, on the matter of these questions if I may, rather than de- lay them completely, would it not be possible to put in the two orders for return and simply for the time being delete No. 6 on the second order which can be then subsequently brought in as an order in itself? Otherwise these will have to wait until next week and there will be that much more time before the answers can come forward, _P age 562 March 9, 1962

MR . ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, there's no objection to that suggestion at all. MR . SPEAKER : Next motion is the motion of the Honourable Member for Inkster and . .. MR . MOLGAT: I think we'll have to call for these Orders of Returns will we not? The one standing in the name of the Member for Gladstone being second of them and then the third one which he will simply ask to delete No . 6. MR. SPEAKER : I was under the impression that we were leaving them over until next session. MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, that was my suggestion and I still think it's not an objec tionable one, but if the member who is moving the request wishes to deal with it some other way I'm entirely open to any suggestion he would make. MR. SHOEMAKER : I can proceed now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose. AiJ.d I'd leave Item No . 6 on Order No . 3-- on 2. Delete Item No . 6. Shall I proceed then? I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain that an Order of the House do issue for a return, showing:

(1) The total number of applications received by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation from the date of its inception up to December 31, 196 1; (2) the number of applica tions approved during the said period; (3) the number of applications rejected during the said period; (4) the number of applications withdrawn by the applicants during the said period. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SHOEMAK ER: I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing for each year since its inception of the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan:

(1) The number of prosecutions for non-payment of premiums;

(2) The number of fines levied as a result of the prosecutions;

(3) The total dollar amount of the fines levied;

(4) The number of people jailed as a re sult of the prosecutions;

(5) The actual cost of collecting premiums broken down to show commissions paid and all other costs. MR . SPEAKER : Are you ready for the question? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health)(Gimli) : ..... to get all the information asked here by the honourable member. I just put possibly one reservation on No . 5 in this · Order where it says "and all other costs." We will do our best to get all this information but I just don't know what this might imply. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

ROBLIN: I believe that it has been agreed that we should now proceed to government business on the Order Paper, and if that is the case then I would ask you to call the last resolu tion on the Order Paper, the one that has to deal with the resolution on Trade. MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Speaker , before the question is put? Does the government intend to proceed today with the resolution presented by the Minister of Welfare, or not today?-4 th page. ·MR . ROBLIN: There would be no objection to doing that, Mr. Speaker .

Probably we could deal with the resolution on Trade or the ECM , that's the last item on the Order Paper , and we could then proceed with the resolution on the Constitutional Amendment on Pensions so that the Honourable Member for St. George may give us his vie ws. And then I would suggest that if there is time left we would then go to Committee of Supply. MR . MOLGAT: That will suit us fine. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker; I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-Gen eral that:

WHEREAS new trading patterns appear to be developing which may closely affect the vital agricultural, extractive and manufacturing industries of the Province of Manitoba, and

WHEREAS wider and freer trading patterns of a multilateral , non-discriminatory kind are in the best interests of the people of the Province , and

WHEREAS the Six Countries of the European Common Market are Canada's friends and allies and Canada has extensive trade rela tions with the Common Market, as evidenced by the fact that Canada's exports thereto have quadrupled in the last years, and

WHEREAS the possible entry of the United Kingdom into the Common Market and the economic policies now being advocated by President Kennedy of the United States are of fundamental importance to this province , and

WHEREAS the Government of Manitoba is encouraging the expansion and development of agriculture, the extractive industries and manufacturing for sale at home and abroad, and

WHEREAS the Gove rnment of Manitoba March 9, 1962 Page 563

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) •••• sought and obtained the co-ope ration of the Government of Can ada in holding the Manitoba Export Trade Conference in 1961 and the Government of Manitoba has been assured of the continuing co -operation of the Federal Government and its Trade Commis sioner Service in its activitie s to expand the export trade of Manitoba produce rs; THEREFORE BE IT RESOL VED that this House recognize the problems and opportunities that may arise from the aforesaid developments and the need to take the initiative to lo cate and develop new markets by every means available including inform ation, consultation and technical adv ice . AND FURTHER

BE IT RESOLVED that the Government of Manitoba sponsor a Trade Mission representative of the various economic interests in the Province to visit the United Kingdom , the Common Market countries and other European countries at an early date to consult with government, labo ur, agriculture and industry and to study at first hand the opportunities for ex panding our present market opportunities in the Common Market and the probable effects of the proposed entry of the United Kingdom into the Common Market as a member and of other econ omic developments in Europe, and to assess the problems and opportunities which these devel opments will prese nt to Manitob'a producers engaged in agriculture, the extractive industries and manufactur ing.

AND FURTHER BE IT RESOVED that the proposed Trade Mis sion prepare a report on its findings for presentation to the Government of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . MOLGAT : Mr . Speaker, before ..••• proceed . Should not this resolution have been preceded by a messa ge from His Honour? MR . ROBLIN: I'm not at all sure that that will be necessary, Mr. Chaii:'man, because it's not at all settled as to where the cost of this will be met, and it may be that departmental estimates will take care of this particular problem . So I don't think that a mess age from His Honour is in order. MR .

MOGAT : It is anticipated then that the Government of Manitoba will have no ex penditure with regard to this item ? MR . ROBLIN: .•..•. expenditures, but they will be covered by an appropriation to the House in respect of estima tes. But that matte r has not been settled, and should. it turn out that there will be expenses to the Governmemt of Manitoba it may then be neces sary to deal with it in another way. But that matte r is not settled at the present time. MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Speaker, should -- if the matter isn't settled, either it should have been settled before the resolution was presented or there should have been a mes sage from His Honour. MR . ROBLIN: I don't agree, Mr. Speaker . I think we're dealing with the principle that there should be this kind of action taken but the matter as to how it should be financ ed is a separate question. MR . D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakesid e): Mr. Speaker, would you rule on this matter ?

We have the word of the Honourable the First Minister on it , but after all he's not the Speaker of this Assembly and I would refer you to the rule of our own House dealing with the matte rs of the in troduction of any vote or resolution that has to do with the spending of money . MR . SPEAKER: ••• that if the money is provided in the estim ates of the House, the motion is certainly in order, and if they are not, it would appear that possibly the motion is out of order on the grounds stated by the Leader of the Opposition . . MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I can give the assurance that if any money is spent as a result of this resolution it will be covered by the estima tes. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend said a little while ago that they were not sure that it would be done in this way. MR . ROBLIN: ...••.. "if" it would be covered in the estimate s. MR . SPEAKER : •.•. •••• the Leader of the House that the item is covered by the estimates and it would appear that the motion is in ord er . MR . MOLGAT: •••.• please tell us what appropriation this will be under? MR .

EVANS: That's a matter for discu ssion when we come to the estimat es. -- (Inter je ction) -- I wouldn't want to interrupt my honourable friend s if they have anymore delaying tactics in their minds . . . . . MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, on the point of ord er, I submit to you that to tell us even what appropriation it will be under is not enough, If the Honourable the First Minister's Page 564 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) •••• statement means anything at all, it means that it's already provided for. Where , in the estimates? MR . ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I'm sure my honourable friend knows that in the estimates of every department there are contingency items and this is certainly ample to cover any ex penditures that will. be developed in this way, and the particular item in which this would be covered would be under the Manitoba Development Authority. MR . EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, in any discussion of the issues involved in the expected British entry into the Common Market, let me say at the outset that it would be a very brave man, indeed, probably a braver man than I, who would claim to be an expert in many, or cer tainly all.of the aspects of this complex problem. Britain's relationship with western Europe is one of the great political as well as economic factors of our time. Although it is always dangerous to forecast, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that the outcome of negotia tions now under way, will result in Britain entering the Common Market.

This could result in a difficult period of re-adjustment for Canadian trade and industry , although I'm inclined to the view that there is a tendency by many to overstate the immediate advantages and disadvantages, and to disregard some of the probable longer term results that will come from such a develop ment. My own opinion is, that if we are alert and vigorous and attentive in our attention to this matter, on balance the effects can be more positive than negative, and particularly is this true for the Province of Manitoba. At any rate, it would appear that we have two alternatives to choose from.

One is a negative reaction and the assumption that Britain's entry into the Com mon Market will make it impossible for Manitoba products to compete. Or as an alternative, a positive approach which involves acceptance that Britain' s entry into the Common Market may involve certain difficulties but also provides new opportunities providing we become familiar with the new conditions that are likely to confront us and the Manitoba producers and prepare accordingly.

The second alternative is the policy that the government proposes to follow, and we in tend-to take the initiative in co-operation with various economic interests in the province to study at first hand the implications of Britain's entry into the Common Market; the industries that will be adversely affected and the opportunities that the new arrangements will present to Manitoba producers. In addition, we want to explore the possibilities of increasing sales of Manitoba goods in other areas of the world to offset any losses resulting from Britain's entry into the Common Market.

There have been three major developments in international trade recently and I believe it would be useful if I commented on them briefly. As already mentioned, the United Kingdom has indicated possible membership in the Common Market. Second, the members of the Com mon Market have agreed on a common agricultural policy in broad outlines. And, third, the United States and the Common Market have reached an agreement on a mutual 20% reduction on industrial products and on some agricultural products.

And I think we can all take heart - those of·us who believe in freer trade -- from developments recently and announced in the press yesterday, of an announcement in the House of Commons at Ottawa that Canada is also in pro cess now of reducing tariffs between Canada and the United States . Some of these results have been announced and others are to follow. I think this is heartening news for those of us who are concerned about Canada's export trade and international trade in general. Well I would like to make comment of each of these three factors, in turn.

With regard to the United Kingdom, the Common Market and Canada, the following developments are taking place. One, the United Kingdom is conducting a study at present of the existing trade patterns between it and the commonwealth nations . This trade is being evaluated in terms of British membership in the Common Market. Second, the United Kingdom is negotiating with the Com mon Market to obtain safeguards which will give Canadian and other commonwealth exporters a tariff advantage over non-commonwealth suppliers.

France, West Germany and the other members of the Common Market are reported to be oppo sed to the proposed commonwealth preference system, advocating instead, a unilateral system of trade concessions. United States has indicated support of the idea of a transitional period of adjustment and within President Kennedy•s program for freer world trade, the United States is willing to lend its influence to help persuade the Common Market to allow commonwealth preferences to be reduced gradually. This would give industries in Canada more time to adjust and to the new market conditions with March 9, 1962 Page 565

(Mr. Evans , cont'd. ) •..• which they would be faced. Thr ee , if the United Kingdom becomes a member of the Common Market, the effect on a number of Canada's exports wi ll depend large ly on the commonwealt h tariff advantages that Britain can neg otiate. In 19 60, Canadian exports to the United Ki ngdom amounted to $915 million, or 17% of the total Canadian exports . Turning to the agricul tural policy agree ment of the Common Market, the following events have occurred or are under way. One, a common agricult ural policy in broad outline has been adopted by the six members of the Common Market.

This agricult ural agreement wi ll become effective in the crop year of 1963 . It is the aim of the Common Market to reduce all tar iffs, quotas and taxes on agricult ural products and other products to two levies . One levy is to be applied to the countries outside the Common Market and the other levy is to apply to the mem ber countries. The latter is to be reduced by stages until final elim ination.

The common agri cultural policy is des igned to finance the reorientation and rehabilitation of the certain backward areas in the Common Market, to safeguard and stabilize prices ins ide the Common Market and to finance the dispos ition of the agricultural surplus of the Common Market. For certain speci fic items such as cereals, pork, eggs, poultry, fruit, vegetables and wi ne , special regulations were adopted for each of these items special adminis trative committees were created. The achievement of a common agricultural policy indicates that the Common Market is firmly estab lished.

The agreement showed a powerful wlll to succeed, for in mak ing the necessa ry con cessions on agriculture , the Ministers of member countries risked political difficulties athome. And finally, the third major development which concerns the United States Common Mark et in Canada was, first, the Common Market and the Uni ted States have reached .an agreement on a mutual 20% reduction of tar iffs on industrial products and on some agricult ural products.

The Common Market could not extend guarantees for all American farm exports to Europe be cause the members have not decided on the fine details of the common agricult ural policy. The agree ment wi ll have to be submit ted to the general agree ment for tariffs and trade , the council adminis ters of the Common Market and the United States Congress for approval. The Recipro cal Trade Agreements Act, the law by which the United States has set tariffs during the past 25 years, wi ll expire on June 30, 1962 .

Pres ident Kennedy has ind icated that his government is in favour of freer world trade and he has stated that he wi ll call on Congress to pass a new five year law authorizi ng him to elim inate tariffs completely on those groups of commodities for which the United States and the Common Market control 80% of the total world's trade . For ex am ple, industrial machinery, electrical equipment, transportation equipment and chemicals.

Next, to reduce tar iffs by as much as 50% on broad groups of commodities instea d of on individ ual items as at present; to extend federal aid to industries and labour adversely affected by im port competition; to wi thdraw or modify tariff concessions when domestic industries are too drastically affected by imports . The forces supporting Pres ident Kennedy 1s proposed program are reported to be organiz ed labour and business genera lly, and I think we should note, also, Canada 1s-support of this gen eral program ad vocated by Pres ident Kennedy and bein g carried into effect.

I was struck by a dis patch from London wr itten by Dave Oancia in the Winnipeg Tri bune wh ich begins , as follows: "Two messages, one delivered in Washington and the other in Winnipeg, app ear to have been big morale boosters to the men who are striving for West ern European integration. The messages were major world trade policy pronouncements by President John Kennedy and Fi nance Minist er Donald Fleming. Both emphasized the need for dramatic moves to cope wi th the international trading revolution precip itated by the creation of the European economic community and Britain's decision to try to join it".

And a lit tle later in the same despatch it's point ed out that "one di rect result of the better relati ons ln the presence of two senior Canadian offidals in Brussels helping the British and Common Market teams of experts studying the Commonwealth trade pro blem.

" And a little later in the same despatch it's pointed out that "one direct result of the better relati ons is the presence of two senior Canadian officials in Brussels helpi ng the Briti sh and Common Market teams of experts studying the Commonwealth trade problem." I am sure that those of us who are concerned wi th freer world trade will have welcomed that announcement .and wi ll have taken heart from these developments.

Forces opposed are those generally-- are those individual unions and busine sses which ex pect to be hard hit by the import competition and the congressmen who believe that this trade law infringes on the constitutiona l rights of Congress. The trade debate in the House of Page 566 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont1d. ) .•..• Representatives is expected to continue until June 30 th, 1962, the expiry date of the existing Reciprocal Trade Agreement Act. News re ports from Washington indicate that President Kennedy wi ll achieve at least a half of his proposed program . However, there is a possibility that the existing Reciprocal Trade Agreemen ts Act may be extended for one year. United States is pre paring a study to ascertain the benefits that its economy, region by region, obtains from exports and imports.

The possible effects on Manitoba--! would now like to turn to a discussion of the economic effects of Britain's entry into the Common Market upon Manitoba producers, based on our own investigati ons. Again I must emphas ize that our findings are only tentative and it wi ll be some time before the full impli cations and effects of the development of the Common Market wi ll be known.

I' felt it would be helpful, however, if I reported our findings to date to the members of the Legislature and I would hope they would be equally useful to the business community, to the labour movement and to the financial instit utions , all of whom are deeply concerned wi th this question; and of course at the basis of all these things we have regard to the interests of agricul ture and the farm movement I hope wi ll find this information concerning their markets and fu ture markets of interest and value.

Three groups of exportable commodities are usually disti nguished in any study of effect on our economy--industrial raw materia ls, food products and manufactures; and I propose to deal wi th those three categories in turn. Industrial raw materia ls. At the risk of over-s implification, one can say that the indus trial raw material sector should not be a source of great concern to Manitoba producers. The · new Europe will continue to be a large net importer of these com modities and already admits them free or at low tariff rat es. Nickel.

It appears there wi ll be no common external duty on nickel and as Canada is the world's largest supplier there is a bright future for our nickel in the European Common Market. Copper ingots, bars and billets. We now enjoy a substantial Canadian export to Britain and the Common Marke t. Canada is the United Ki ngdom's second largest supplier. The Canadian copper industry should find an increas ing market in Europe re sulting from a high rate of economic growth and an expanding electri cal industry .

Also, there wi ll be increas ing opportunities for sales in un der-developed countries for electrification as ass istance programs are organized by the Common Market countries. There is no duty now on copper entering Europe, except a small levy by Italy. There will be no duty under the common external tariff so Commonwea lth preference is not a factor. The import dema nd for copper in Europe is expected to increase about 4% per year, giving Canada and other producers a good potential to increase sales . Zi nc.

Canadian sales to Britain in 1960 were close to $20, 000, 000 and Canada is Brit ain's chief supplier of zinc metal--45%; although the USA , Belgium and Russia are also import ant . Australia supplies mostly concentrates. The Common Market does not import substantial quantities of metal. Belgium is one of the world's leading smelters of zinc from imported con centrate!'! and wi ll eventually have duty-free entry on refined zinc into Britain. At present Can ada has a preference in the British market of 1 pd 10s per ton--2% ad val orem.

The common external tariff for the Common Market wi ll be the same as lead--4 pd 16s per ton, which equals, at present zinc prices, 6-3/ 4% ad valore m. Thus Canadian sales would be at a disa dvantage against Belgium as both countries produce all grades of refined zinc . The United Kingdom has asked for the Common Market external duty on zinc metal to be nil. It is felt that this wi ll not be agreed to but a reduction of the proposed duty of 4 pd 16s may be achieved.

In any case, the United Kingdom wi ll undoubtedly press for a substantial duty free quota on the lines granted to Germa ny and the Netherlands at the present time. It should be borne in mind that the United Kingdom also may need protection for her own production of 90 to 100 thousand tons per annum of metal from imported concentrat es. European dema nd for zinc wi ll increas e, although not so much as copper. Galvaniz ing of iron wi ll continue to be an important consumer of zinc , where as chromium plated should expand wi th the growth of consumer durab les; and there are good prospects for zi nc dye casting.

Slightly over 2% growth per year is probable for zinc. With the increase in dema nd and the probab ility that Brit ain may be able to negotiate a duty-free im port quota, Canada should be able to hold her own on zinc exports to Britain. Cadmium. Canada exported 1. 4 million dollars to Britain in 19 60. The duty wi ll go from zero to 5%, but it is expected that Canada 's exports wi ll not be affected because Europe is a big March 9, 1962 Page 567

(Mr. Evans , cont1d. ) .•... importer and Manitoba produces relatively small amounts of cad mium. Newspri nt. At $60 million this is Canada's most important manufactured export to Brit ai n,- -6-1/ 2% of our total exports to Britain. We sold only one and a half million dollars to the Common Marke t, chiefly to Franc e. Bri tish newspr int consumption is supplied 12% from Scandinavia; 57% domestic production and 31 % from Canada. Therefore. Canadian sales of news print to Britain are very important, both to British and Canadian interests and , potentially, to northern Manitoba.

The Canadian newsp rint industry, after a first- hand study of the si tuation in Europe, is not as pessim istic as some other manufacturers, and I base that on a statement by R. M. Fowler, Pres ident of the Pulp and Paper Association of Canada, after his return from a recent trade mission to Europe. They're not as pessimi stic as some other manufacturers about the effect on their sales of European integration, this despite the fact that a 7% common external tariff may be in effect compared wi th the duty-free entry into Br itain at present from all sources.

If Br itain enters the Common Market the Canadian new sprint industry wi ll not be subject ed to competition from continental sources. British mills are in a be tter position to supply Br itish ne ws papers than continent al mills. Scandinavian mills wi ll be in no be tter posi tion to supply Britain than is Canada except for the freight factor which has alw ays existed.

The main competitive threat for Ca nadian newsprint in Britain might come from Briti sh domestic in dustry protected by a 7% tariff; but the British paper industry finds it more profitable to expand its production of packagi ng mater ials and fine papers than to make more newsprint. Britain is trying to negotiate a zero tariff for newsprint--it is possible that Britain wi ll have the co-opera tion of some of the Common Market countries. In. spite of over-capacity at present in the new s print industry, there is a very strong growth factor linked to ris ing li ving standards and liter acy.

Any diversion of trade resulting from Britain's joining the Common Market is th�refore likely to be negligible and Canadian sales to Britain should be maintained. Wood pulp. At the present time Britain buys only 10% of her pulp imports from Canada-- 85% comes from Scandinavia. All European importers of wood pulp look first to Sweden, Fin land and Norway for their supplies. Scandinavia has a large exportable surplus of high quality pulp and is close at hand.

The main problem affecting Canadian pulp exports to Europe is not the possible effect of Brit ain joi ning the Common Market, but inability to compete wi th Scandin avia. Pulp enters Britain duty-free from all sources but the Common Market external tariff will be 6%. However, any Common Market country , a!ter due notification, can establish tar iff free quotas up to the extent of their domestic require ments. The Common Market and Britain are a large deficit area of coniferous forest products and as such cannot afford to restrict im ports too severely. Britain is negotiati ng for a Common Market zero tariff.

If forecast of con sumption of paper products in the Common Market work out, demands for pulp wi ll outstrip Scandinavian cap acity to produce by 1970. By then it·is expectecl. they will reach their limi t of wood resources and also wi ll be keepi ng more sulphate pulp at home to supply their expanding domestic manufacture of kraft paper. The shortfall in Scandinavian abilit y for exports to Europe ·could possibly be in the ne ighbourhood of two million tons annually in ten yea rs.

The Canadian pulp industry may be adversely affected at first, chiefly from Scandinavian competition , but sooner or later Ca nadian production should make a come-back in the British market and even on the continent, and this could be an important potential market for the development of the forest resources of northern Manitoba. Plywood-softwood. The consumption of plywood in Europe should increase faster than lumber but domestic manufacture of plywood wi ll probably be protected by a Common Market external tariff of 10% to 15% compared wit h duty-free entry into Britain at present.

Softwood plywood is not used in Europe to the same extent as in North America. Hardboard from Scan dinavia and domestically produced insulation board have the bulk of the market. Unless Canadi an softwood-plywood can be sold in Britain at prices lower than at present, it does not seem that any marked expansion of exports to Britain can be expected. The Common Market external tariff will not help the situation so the prospect for export of Canadian plywood to Europe is not bright. Pulpwood. Pulpwood logs enter Britain duty-free and will continue to do so under the Common Market external tariff.

The main competition is from Finland and Russia wit h most parts of Cana da at a disadvantage because of freight costs. However, it is expected that sup- plies available from Finla nd and Russia for export wi ll decrease as their domestic pulping Page 568 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Evans , cont'd. ) ..... increases. Thus , there should be additional opportunities for Cana da to ship pulpwood to Europe including exports from Manitoba where our superior quality pulp wood makes up for a higher price. In any event, the Common Market per se w ill not affect Can ada's opportunities. Lumber softwood. This is an important export to Britaln--$51 million from Canada a year ago, and there are possibilities of exporting such lumber from Manitoba through Churchill pro vided we can deliver to Europe at a competitive price. Canada also sold $4 million to the Com mon Market.

Canadian coniferous saw-wood is duty-free into Britain at present and will still be free under the Common Market tariff. A forecasted rise ln consumption for softwood lumber in Europe is 2. 7% annually. Production in the Com mon Market cannot be increased except in France but not enough to keep pace wi th demand. The problem for Canadian producers is Scan dina:vian com petition. FOB prices in Canada are 30% to 40% below Scandinavian but freight from Scandinavia to Europe ls 60% to 70% lower than from Canada and thus landed prices are close together.

If freight rates go up, Canada is at a disadvantage because 25% to 30% of the CIF European price for Canadian timber is freight. Britain's entry into the Co mmon Market wi ll not affect Canada's exports of softwood lumber but at the sam e t(me it may be difficult for Can ada to increase sales in keeping with the pace of an expanding Eu rope because of Scandinavian com petition in Continental Europe's and Britain's doorstep. But the situation may improve for Canada as European consumption outpaces Scandlnavian production capacity.

Turning to food products, the ,second grade class--so far as agricultural products are con cerned, Canadian fears stemmed in good part from the great uncertainties of the Comn1on Mar ket plans concerning agriculture. Wheat: Canada's largest export of a single product to Britain, of course, is wheat. And normally about two -thirds of Canada's wheat exports are sold to Europe including the United Kingdom. Britain produces only 36% of her requirem ents of bread grains and must import the rest. The Com mon Market countries grow 90% of their requireme nts and lately France has had a surplus available for export.

In a good year France produces about SO% as much wheat as Canada and has ample room to expand production if they could success fully introduce modern methods. But Canadian spring wheat is high quality, high protein hard wheat. It is often 'mixed w tth lower quality domestic European wheat to satisfy consumer prefer ence for particular types of bread. In spite of a trend in Europe towards less bread consumption, a rlslng standard of living brings an opposit e trend of a des ire for better , whiter bread req uir ing high protein wheat.

Also the trend in Europe away from small hand-operated bakeries to wards large mechanized units as found in North America and Britain will require a stronger flour containing high protein wheat. Canada already exports a subst antial volume of wheat- -$61 million in 1960 --to the Common Market countries. Although production by Common Market countries of wheat will increase, there are physical lim its to increasing the production of hard wheat.

Frankly, I believ e the subs idized sale of United States wheat is just as much of a prob lem to normal com petitive marketing of Canadian wheat as the prospect of any protective policy .to be adopted by the Common Market. On balance, if Britain jo ins the Common Market, Canad Ian wheat sales to Eu rope should be fairly well maintained. Australia would be harder hit be cause of our superior quality but, admittedly, if Britain is not success ful .in gaining any con ces sions on the proposed 20% external Common Market tariff, it will present a difficult hurdle for Canadian wheat exporters.

In such circumst ances new markets will obviously have to be found for Canadian wheat to take up any slack that may develo p in Europe, and this is already being succes sfully done in Japan, China and behind the Iron Curtain. Finally, I might mention the outlook for Durum Wheat in the Common Market appears good. The dem and for Durum . products is growing and Germany, Belgium , Netherlands and Italy should continue to be good customers . Barley. Canada exported $29 million of barley to Britain in 196 0. Im ports of barley into Britain in 1960 came from Canada 84%, Australia 8% and Russi a 4%.

Our barley sales to Brit ain are declining but this has been largely offset by our sales to Commu nist China. Our malt lug barley is satisfactory in the United States but British breweries use a different process and so do not buy our barley. In Europe, Denmark is the main producer of barley. The Common Market countries, particularly France, can and likely will increase their production which they wi ll want to protect. These producers can expect a rise in demand for thei r barley for animal feed as demand for meat increases. The Common Market external tariff on barley will probably March 9, 1962 Page 569

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ...... be 13 percent. The loss of preference in the United Kingdom re- placed by 13% against Canada into Britain, and no duty against the Common Market countries in creasing production of barley on the Continent, and Canada's higher price, all mean that Cana da •s barley sales to United Kingdom are ll kely to decline. Wheat flour . Canada shipped $23 million to Britain in 1960 and we are currently being un dercut by American subsidized flour.

At .present, Canadian wheat flour . enters Britain duty free, but non-Com monwealth exporters f.ace a: 10% duty, Under the Common Market, Canadran wheat flpur wl tl .. face a 30% duty into Brltain. · There'� not too· much basis for Bri tain to sdccess fully negotiate special concessions for Im port ofCanadtan flo ur.

Develo ping countries tend to. establ ish their own milling industries Whlch the Common Market will protect, and eventually to dispense' with imports :;tltogethet; For exar:nple.�. c;lespite the-1:!uperiot' qUall ty _ ofC anadJan- flotil', Canada at the present Hme setl.s .a negJigtble . voltim.e of flour to cont!n anta:l Europe· because of restrictions, ltnport -q uot as �nd high tariffs' . It would therefore appear tl1at we stand ·tcdaS'e · : much of our flour sale·s .to· Brttai n-unless ther�is : some .concessi on - negotiate d •..

N?gatiatlons will be spread over a few years and-may end-up.wit b: a small duty-free import quota far Canadi an flour because of its high q!lality, and sets th.e· pace for United Kingdom domestic mUle. rs . Flaxseed. Canada said $21 mill ion to Erttain and $7 mlll lon to the Common Market coun tries in 19 60 •. As with other vegetable oil, seeds there will be no common- external duty into the c;;orom9n-Mal;'ketl'."· Th.is is. distilwt b'olll vege�b le 'qlls w�;W W face. relatLvcEl�Y'- hlih dut}l.

Thus there Erhould bedittle:. effeet 0tt ol:il' sali:\$'' of. ffa:)c�eed to Bt ltafi). it B'rl tafn joinS th-e Cun;rn:ion. Mar ket.. But, tn any event; detiJand; {!1'0s�qm froi;n. tba,t;,area -are not)�rtgh tdue tQ th e Wirea_s-tng use of substltu tea . . . - ·' . -�·· · . · - . · . · · · . · Soya Oii � £akes and meal . in 1'960 .Canada: expo�fed $14 �tliion tQ B':dt alri·a:ru:E'none to 'the Common Marl;:et. We hAve- had a 10% p:teterenee Into the United Kingdom: over non-'- Common wealt h supplie rs. The Com .mon Market external" tariff w l l l be 10%.

That new tll.rlff against Canada·ctn expOl' ts to Brltain- -wt.n bEl• enough to .. catis-e a serious diversion of trade wl th Common Markets at>soctat:ed tei'l!·ltor·ies c);'.Q.shing-· mQre sti,iad · foJ!.':duty-.free �port mto th& ,,CO:lriiqQtt M-ar-- ket. Mucfu1:!fC-anada!s $.o14,mi-ilwn•s�rle.liHtl aY:.h�.aff:e cted aa\oe�.,f· · · · · ':-� "''"":>-� "" ·�· '," ' . �. Ma\itil'actut-ers ; In co.itt mon with ot her parte of Canada._ Manitoba 'b� 'b een li''grow.fnlf �x- · · porter of. manufaetuied.products.

ManUoba-made products presently being exp<n'ted ln-clude footwear, wire, foodstuffs; sportS :cloth ing,- material's handling equtpii:rent_, automotive accessC!l' ies, scl'e;l!tiflc ii\:Struments,. garden:·toots ,.· agricultural' equfplJl eqt. spectalttes and .. Win-k clot hing. Manitoba now has a sufficiently lar g.e market in canada as.well as a.(lcesS;,fu raw materials,. skllls anu capitaJ to enable her to produ. c� a' wl de rang-e of manufactured products at costs·that. need. not be greatly different f:tom those of' the U�ted States manufacturers.

In-the case of those Lndu.t>tri.es. w!lW;b u� �a.�oot-M'amt'::�ena!s tna�.tb;m.J.a.b.ou�-"W cmn�&�ll¥c �Glii:-pem �' ''·""". with sr!liHar �nduatrieS ·.ffi Europ��aii.rl;S� ·EXp6¥-t'-m:irtrets tife a mti:St f�r Manf� l( m'atm!acft urlng farms [fthe.·pruvinee is. :ro gi-o� ttidtt striallY� · Relia bl e competent obser\l:ers report i:m �e enormous .. ?Conomic dev�lopment _ln Eurqpe. Ther_e is new -w ealth and income.

This wealth: ls not restricted to new !Jlant ang. capi�ii.-1:. equipment bu:t to: an unprecendent.ed growth in consu mer · purchases. of a wide range of agpliances and houaehold goods such as tele-vi-sion sets, radios� cars, :refrigerators, was.hing. machtnes.. Al'Fare being manufactured, .i mported and sold in quantities undreamed of a few years ago, as well as other consumer goods such as foods, cloth ing and hous.ehold furni:_shing!!l.

W?,!$Jrn E.urope's 300-...!JOO, 0�0 inha.bitants-are experiencing,� - phenomenaJ r,)J;le in �ivf ug s.fuhd�: w-Q.� h pre_�ts;,.&;.'f;rem.endous opp.o.r-tunity�·:W?:. sa;ies of. �Jlntx-.· ; factured' items: of arij;ypes to bOth domestic and fi>reign producers. . . . . . Britain's entry- into· the Common Market-will mean a difficult period of readjustment··f.or some firms. Exports, however, _can be. important to our growing manufacturing industry since they can. make it easier to develop high vol ume. spectalties of distinctive Canadian·goods, sup erior styli ng, and supertor in conve·n-ience.

To take full advantage: of this development we must start a. drive to make Manitoba industry·more:efficient and mo re �-ompetitive so that it can �om pete in the huge new market oyerse� that is expanding_ faster tha� any oth er tn the wodd. la m confident that Manitoba manufacturers will. accept this ·challenge and will be more exc ited about the tremendous market opportunities thin the difficlllties of facing competition:, if they study it · .. first-hand, the probable effects of Britain's entry into the Common Market, and find out what the special req uirements of this new ma;rket will be.

Manitoba Industry must also find out· Page 570 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont' d. ) .•..• whether the loss of preferential treatment in the export of certain products to Britain can be offset by increased sales to other areas of the world. Accordingly, the government of Manitoba is arranging to sponsor a Manitoba trade mission to visit th is year, the United Kingdom, the Common Market countries and other European coun�ries to gain first band knowledge of the implication of Britain's entry into the Common Market. The industries that will be adversely affected and the opportunities and under what conditions the new arrange ment will present to Manitoba producers. MR.

MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd llke to ask a question of the Minister. Could he make copies available of his comments of th is aftern oon? Otherw ise we will have to wait until Han -sard--tbat won't be until Monday or Tuesday. MR . EVANS: I'll enquire. As my honourable friend knows , it was pretty closely-prepar ed text . I hope to be able to provide a co. py or two. I haven't th em for general distr ibution but I'll do my best to provide th em. . MR . MOLGAT: I beg to move; Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . ROBLIN: .. .... to call the adjourned debate on the question of contri butory old age pensi�ms that stands in the name of the Honourable Member for St. George. MR . SPEAKER� Adjoorned debate of the resolutton � by the Honoorable-Minister of Welfate. The Honourable Member for St. George. · MR . EL MAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, first l'd ltke to extend my thanl<:s to members of the House for allowing me to stand th is mat ter earlier th is week.

At the outs et , let us remember that in this resolution we are not debating the merits of the legislation relating to pa yments of old age pension .and assista nce, contributory or ot herwise, nor are we debating the merit s of legislation for payment of benefits under part B of the intended legislation.

The issue before this House involves thEf constitu tional problem relating to the amendment of the BNA _act. - The federal gevernment is aski� us to: approve an amen-dment in the terms outlined in the �- :resolution-, and it ts ro- be a �bsti ttttioo fl>r the� resettt 94A'-of �A 1\'et w1ileh was: tntl:od uc- ·· . ed in 1951 by a Liberal government.

The present 94A reads: "It is hereby declared that the Parliament of Canada may, from time to time , make laws in relation to o'ld age pensions in Can ada; but no law made by the Parliament of Canada in relation to old ag_e pensions shall affect the operation of any law present or f uture of a provincial legislature in relation to old age pensions-. " Now the new 94A would read: "It is hereby declared that the Parfiarnent of Canada may, from time to time, make laws in relation to"-- (

a) old agE�" pensions and (b} pensions and other benefits - incidental to, or conducive to the better operation and administration of a scheme of old age pen- ·s i.Qns_,_ oo� no law made.byi � Paft!i:uooni·of �. tmder the �lil lty:Qf fhi;s.-soo tkm, affects the operation of any law enacted by the·i egislature of a province ·m relaftoh tb any of the matters spec-ified in paragraphs A and B of this secti:on. " Mt. Speaker, there are two matters follow.lng from- th is on whreh I feel bound to comment. "First of all, was the legislation of 1951 the present 94A inadequate ?

This ts a legal �u.e: on which I wlll comment later. Secondly, if the amendment is necessary, why was:_this House not asked to act on the necessary amendments iri 19 58 when the Tories first suggest ed legislation of this sort in pre-electi on ta lks?

If th eir ass1,1mption is th at in this. problem ln the election was among .one of the 62 unfulfilled promises in the election made to-- the Canadla:n people by John Ptef enbaker, we must assume that-the legal isSue was the same iu 1958 that itl:s in 1962, and the- only reason the decision wasn't made earlier would rest wit h the indecision .of the govern ... ment who are using this constitutional issue as a smoke screen fo hold up the im-pleme:nting of of-the legislation as it reads in the resolution.

A brief hist ory of the BNA Act: Passed in !867 at the time of Confederation by the British Parliament; parcels out powers to each of the federal and provincial governments . These pow ers are outlined tn sections 91 and 92 of the BNA Act. Let me say -at once that I do noJ th ink that the BNA Act is obsolete . In faet it is a brill'tant document, but because of changing circumst ances and needs and demands th ere are certain aspects of the statute that req11ire alterations or changes.

As far as social security is concerned, I am proud to say that the Liberal government at Ottaw a have had a brilliant record in dealing with problems of social securfty and frequently amended the st atutes by reference to the Imperial Parliament in London. If the statute is March 9, 1962 Page 571

(1\lr. Guttormson, cont'd. ) ..... manipulated as the Tories have done in the issue before us , then the document is no longer an instrument of progress. At the moment we have no system of amending this constitution except by obtaining the consent of all provincial governments to a proposed amendment following which the Dom inion Government petitions Her Majesty. This is what the Liberals had to do 20 years ago when they introduced unemployment insurance.

Unem ployment insurance is a matter of property and civ il rights exclusively wi thin the jurisdiction of provinc ial governments, but by the amendment of 1940 became the responsibility of the Dominion Government where it should be. In 1951, the Liberals introduced the present 94A so there would be no question of old age security and old age assis tance being wi thin the com petence of the federal government. In fact, according to re ports of those who sat on the Comm ittee, this

section wa s also contemplated as being sufficient to permit <!ontributory old age pensions . Many constitutional experts st ill claim that no amend ment is neces sary to implement a contributory pension plan. On the other hand, most experts agree that the legislation contemp lated under part B of the intended legislation is not wi thin the com petence of the federal government under the present statute. I don't pretend to know which legal opinion is correct, but there are other things on which I am certain.

This mess iah from Ottawa tried to mesm erize the peop�e in 1958 by telling them that as far as the contributory pen sions scheme is concerned that there would be one. There was no suggestion of any constitution al amendment at that time if there is one, as far as the contributory pension scheme is concern ed. To justify indecisi on, Diefenbaker 'has appointed Dr. Robert Clark to head a comm iss ion to explore these matters . The report was com pleted in 1959. Still no constitut ional issue was raised.

Promises continued to drone out of Ottawa but only on the brink of an elec tion did the Prime Minister discover a constitutional problem. Mr. Speaker, if there is a constitutional problem, it was as real in 1958 as it is in 1962. The only reason it wasn't advanced in 1958 was that the Prime Minister wis hed another device at his hand before being compelled by public opinion to introduce legislation. During this com ing election he may again parade the new legis lation he proposes to introduce.

It will have the same old ring, and if we but knew he may yet discover another device to avoid introducing legislation on this very im portant issue . By this engineered delay, I saythe BNA Act has becom� a shelter for the indeci si ve Tories. John Dief enbaker has ensconced behind a legalistic argument, an argument they should and could have met in 1958. We are entitled to ask, "Why didn't he do it when ?" In this context, members of this House will recognize my concern and realize that as far as soc ial security is concerned, the BNA Act is an inadequate instrument.

And now, in 1962 , the Tories have sent us a measure beseechi ng us to consent to something that should have been dealt wi th in 1958. Over and over, above the Dominion Government's mishandling of this issue, we face a far more grave and serious problem. Some day perhaps soon, when we have a res ponsible government in Ottawa, the federal·government may wi sh. to act on legislation which will meet the needs and demands of the public. In this field of soc ial securit y and social assist ance they may be hamst rung by provisions of the BNA Act.

Until such time as the Attorneys-Gener al come to some agreement regarding procedure for an amendment, let us be realistic and im aginative and recognize that soc ial security and social ass istance must, in the main, fall on the federal government. It seems to me that in an imaginative approach, we could be asked to ap prove legislation which would make socia l security and social ass istance concurrent responsi bilities of both the provincial and federal governments. By the passing of this resolution before this House, we are dealing wi th the problem in piecemeal.

The federal Tories have made a mockery of the BNA Act by hid ing behind it. Let us not permit this to happen again, and irres pective of government, let us see to it that social security and social assis tance is dealt wi th primarily by the federal government, and have the statute amended once and for all. I am sure the Attorney-General realizes the need for constructive and new approach and I am equally sure that the government of this province is em barrassed to be dealing wi th this resolution which should have been faced in 1958.

I know not what excuse will come next, but I am satisfied that we wi ll face the millennium before we obtain responsible government from the Tarries in Otta wa. Later is better than never, and this is the grounds upon which we in this group wi ll support this resolution. 1\ffi. ORLIKOW: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the honourable member for Seven Oaks, that the debate be adjourned. Page 572 March 9, 1962

Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Is it .the desire to move into the Committee of Supply? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply wi th the Honourable Member for St. Matthews In the Chalr. . •••.•••.. •..•...••.. Continued on next page. March 9, 1962 Page 573

MR . CH AIRMAN: Department XIV -R esolution 81. MR . EVANS : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Committee would grant me a minute to rally my papers here . Now I believe we held open Reso lution No . 81 , was it not, for supplying cer tain information, and I believe I will be able to answer my honourable friend's questions now. The question of the. estimates -- the cost of town and rural planning services is made up as follows: Salaries under Vote No. 14-3 (a) , $71 ,0 00 ; expenses under 14-3 (c) , $22 ,0 00; a total of $93 , 000 . 00. Recoveries under 14-3 (d) , $21 , 000 , a net of $72, 000 cost .

This estimate re fers to the entire cost of supplying normal municipal planning services where municipal recover ies under agreement is 20<; per capita . The above figures do not refer to the comptroller of town planning staff and expens es , the special studies when undertaken, such as Grand Rapids , et cet era, or general drafting services which include one junior draftsman.

With respect to urban renewal studies -- under appropriation 14-3 (c ), the sum of $90 ,0 00 has been provided for urban renewal studies, which include continuation of studie s now under way for Churchill and Metro Winnipeg and, in addition, provision for studies that it is anticipa ted will arise out of the new urban renewal program which is to be debated later. Provision has been made for at least one munici pal study and two neighborhood studies .

It should be pointed out that, of the $90 , 000 provided it is antici pated that $65 , 000 will be recoverable from the fed eral and munici pal participants, leaving a net cost to the province of $25, 000 . 00. These recover ies are included under appropriation 14-3 (d) . My honourable friend, the Leader of the NDP , isn't here but I'l l read the information onto the record and he can get it later.

The Leader of the New Democratic Party asked how we could justify the fact that the committee brochure on page 5 stated that by 1970 there would be 335, 000 jobs available in Manitoba, while on page 4 of the departmental annual report we stated that in August of 1960 , out of a labour force of 348 , 000 , 97 .4 % or 338 , 000 had jobs. The answer to this question is the effect of se asonal employment in a climate such as Manitoba. The 338 , 000 jobs in 1960 are the monthly maximum for the year, as the honourable member stated,

whereas the 335 , 000 jobs estimated to be available in 1970 are the annual average for the entire year. The estimated maximum monthly employment in 1970 , on the other hand, will be about 342,0 00. Now my honourable friend asked also how the estimate of 40 , o·oo jobs required by 19TO, as indicated in the committee's bro chure, was arrived at.

The estimate that 40 ,0 00 additional jobs will be required by 1970 to fully employ the potential labour force in Manitoba was determined by comparing the population and labour force requirements made by the Royal Commis sion on Canada's Ec onomic Prospects with the projection of the annual average growth in industrial and agricultural employment in Manitoba. The projected employment figure of 335, 000 by 1970 was based on assumptions: (

l) that the growth in industrial employment during the coming decade will be similar to that which occurred during the past decade , and (2) that the growth of agricultural employment will follow past trends, modified to account for some slowing up on the Tate of farm consoli dation . This estimate was designed specifically to show what would happen to employment in Manitoba unless steps were taken to increase our rate of industrialization and the annual rate of capital investment. Perhaps someone will indic ate to the honourable member that he can find the information on Hansard.

My honourable friend also asked about the number of consultants and consulting firms under taking studies for the committee on Manitoba's Economic Future . I can furnish him with a list of consultants who are undertaking the studies. The following information will answer his ques tion . The number of consultants, that is, firms or individuals retained, 43 , of which Manitoba firms or individuals with Manitoba affiliates, 3, United States firms , 4, British firms, l -- total of 43. Now perhaps one of the pages will help me . I'll furnish this written statement to the Leader of the NDP as well .

Would you be good enough to leave those on Mr. Paulley' s desk? Now I think I have not been able to get the information to answer the question that was asked by my honourable friend from Kil donan, but I hope to get it and I'l l give it to him when I do . MR . ORLIKOW : Mr. Chairman, I must say that I'm not satisfied with the answer which the Minister has given us with regard to the staff which the department has to do the work of town planning and of urban renewal. He told us how much they spent last year.

He didn't indic ate how many people are on the staff nor did he tell us what work they did, nor did he tell us what staff they are likely to have in the next year or what work they 're going to do . Somebody, Mr. Chairman -- I presume that this government is going to assume part of the responsibility because Page 574 March 9, 1962

(Mr . Orlikow, cont'd) ••••••• I must assume until we get the legislation proposed by the govern ment with respect to urban renewal that the government is going to spend some money . I want _t o suggest that if somebody doesn't get this thing started that it will be a long time before we start to move, because apparently the planners that we have in the city of Winnipeg and the plann ers that they have in the federal government, and the planners that we don't yet have for the province are just not enough to devise a plan which is applicable to the city of Winnipeg.

In case members think that I am exaggerating I would refer them to an editorial in today's Tri bune, which is certainly not a newspaper which supports our party politically -- it's the main editorial in today's newspaper and it's headed "Another Delay". I just want to read a few lines from that editorial ln case the Minister hasn't had a chance to read it yet, and it says as follows , and I quote: "This latest cropper is in keeping with the history of low-rental housing in Winnipeg from the beginning. The series of delays and boners have become almost incredible .

In connection with this latest episode, a good many citizens will wonder why basic planning for a housing de velopment in Winnipeg was turned over to an office in ottawa. Why couldn't the plan have been drawn up right here in Winni peg where there is first-hand knowledge of the utility , road and municipal services problems involved and also of the climate and snow removal problem. Why should the job be let to wizards in Ottawa?" And they end up by saying, "The blame must rest squarely on government, civic, provincial and federal." Now, Mr.

Chairman , this government I presume has some excuse for not having been in volved up till now because this government has not until now seen fit to co-operate financially in this kind of project, but surely if we're going into this kind of project it will be necessary for this government to do more than just pay its share of the money, and if we're going to encourage this kind of development it would seem to me that the department is going to have to have staff to help with the planning so that we can begin to see some re sults.

I said this before and I will. repeat it -- Winnipeg is the only city in Canada in which we have -- with the exception of the elderly persons' housing, and that' s a separate matter which we will be discussing on another occasion -- but we have absolutely no public housing at all, no low-rental subsidized housing to meet' the requirements of the people in low income s, the people with large families and so on, and it's long overdue , and I want to feel that we're going to do more this session than provide the money so that if a municipality, Winnipeg or any other wants to go ahead, that there will be some money.

I would like to feel that this government will have the staff to help co-operate , that this government will have tile staff to help the municipalities know what's being done in other areas, that this government will have the staff to give -- I hate to use the word "vision" because it was mi sappropriated by the Prime Minister of -- it was a good word till John used it -- I don't like to use it but I wish, I would hope that this government would give some leadership and on the basis of what we've had up till now there's been anything but leadership at any level of govern ment as far as the urban areas of Manitoba are concerned.

MR . EVANS: .... .. knows perfectly well what the situation is with regard to the urban planning· scheme in Winnipeg and he either chooses to ignore it or to mislead us , because he is perfectly well aware of the story which came in the paper a few days ago indicating that the city had not yet been able to come to agreement with the CMHC as to the plan. They didn't like the plan; they're going to change it.

Now how can my honourable friend possibly try to indicate that the provincial government and the planning service of my department is causing a delay in approv ing a plan or.in helping with a plan which has not yet been submitted by the city of Winnipeg? MR . ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I didn't say that at all. MR . EVANS: You did. MR . ORLIKOW: I'm sorry, I said specifically that since you have not been involved up till now that you couldn't be blamed for the difficulty until today.

What I said was that you are ·going to be involved because you are going to put money into these plans from whenever your legislation is passed and as of the time we pass the estimates and the budget , and then as of that time , I'm hoping that you will have the staff to help resolve these difficulties, and all I'm asking is for some information -- what are your plans for next year? I 'm not blaming you for what's been up till now, I could blame you, that you're moving much too slowly , but that's water under the bridge .

Well I think that this legislation you're proposing this year could very well have been proposed two or three years ago, but that's gone. We'll discuss that at another time. I want to know what you're doing for next year, when you will have legislation and you will have money -- March 9, 1962 Page 575

(Mr. Orlikow, cent' d) •••.• I'm not blaming you for what happened before. MR . EVANS: I'm glad to get that clear and on the record. As my honourable friend also knows , a proposal will be brought down and will be discussed in the House as I indicated in my estimates yesterday, as to what the government's plan is and what their policy will be in this regard. He admits that there is no delay up to this very day. He admits that this has not held up the city of Winnipeg Planning Scheme to this very moment.

It will not hold it up until tonight; it will not hold it up until this time next week; it will not hold it up until.we are able to bring down the government's plan and announce it. So the impression that the honourable member made on me was that he was trying to indicate that we should employ more staff in order to clear up some of these delays and the slow progress with regard to an urban renewal scheme for Winni peg. He has made it amply clear that he does not blame the Government of Manitoba in that connection. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I do n't know why there should be this difference .

If the Minister wants to tell this committee that what the government is proposing is largely finan cial arrangements., whereby if a municipality or a service club or the Legion has an idea to go ahead with low rental housing and does the work and does the planning, that there will be a cer tain percentage of the money available from the provincial government under the new legislation and that's all that is contemplated? And all the Minister has to say is that. And I will say this isn't enough but that will be the end of it.

All I'm asking from the Minister, is it contemplated that the government will do more than supply the money ? Will the government help in promoting these plans ? Will the government help in preparing the detailed plan? Will the government participate in anything more than money? If the Minister will answer, ''no, it won't, " that ends it. 1 won't be satisfied, but that ends it. If the government is going to do· more than that then I suggest to the Minister that the department has to have staff and I'd like to know what staff they're going to have. MR .

EVANS: Well that's all the Minister has to do not only to end it but to end the Minis ter. If that's the object my honourable friend has in mind, I'll announce the policy but -- I'm trying to be a little facetious here and I shouldn't. I suggest to my honourable friend that he has already been told that announcement of government policy and what the plans are will be announced as quickly as it can be brought in, and that's the only statement I can make at this time . MR . A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to say something about this unfortunate delay of this much needed housing project because it's in my mind like history re peating itself. Some years ago there was a large area iR West Kildonan about to be developed, and when the promoters submitted their plans Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation intim ated that the cost per frontage foot was far too high and a stalemate resulted. I was on the West Kildonan council at the time and I took a trip to Ottawa to qonvince the planners of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation that they should pay a visit to Western Canada.

And while we agreed that we wanted to get the price per frontage foot down, I was amazed to find that most of these planners were from Great Britain, and while they were very, very capable they had little or no knowledge of our conditions in Western Canada. When we suggested 66 -foot streets, they wanted to know why we wanted 66 feet. I had to inform them that this was from property line to property line and I asked them if they had ever visited Western Canada in the wintertime where the snow was cold t'nd dry and where you simply pile it up and wait for Mother Nature to dissolve it in the spring.

Now it seems very unfortunate -- it doesn't appear to me that they have learned very much since , because when they plan a development with all due regard to safety, when they plan a development such as the Burrows with no roads in this some ten acres, where the city have to point out the need for better fire protection, it seems a tragedy indeed, and I would submit that this government should put some pressure on our feder al government to wake up in this business of planning because this has been going on now for some 12 or 14 years .

And I would submit that they should pay a visit here to Western Qma da, see conditions as they are and not allow such a condition as this to exist where we have a much needed development stalemated now because of the lack of planning from Central Mortgage and Housing. MR . CHAffiMAN: •••••••• passed. MR . MOLGAT: On 81 -- presumably there will be an amount in capital supply, on this subject of urban renewals. Is that correct? Page 576 March 9, 1962

MR . EVANS: I have no statement to make. MR . E. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) : Mr. Chairman, .•..•. understanding that at the present time the Municipal Act does not allow for municipalities to issue or float debentures for purposes of senior citizens' housing and low rental housing of that type, and I'm wondering if the Minister is aware of this and whether, interested as he is in more construction employ ment, whether he'll be prepared to recommend needed changes in this regard to his colleagu es.

Another item which I would like to query the Minister on has to do with an item which I notice on page 3 of the Review of Activities. For example, it's stated that there's been an invest ment of $175 , 000 for a strawboard plant in Western Manitoba. I'm wondering whether -- just what the factors are that are holding back further development to investment along this line. Is it the limitation of market demand or is it, perha ps, the lack of initiative or perhaps loca l initiative in this regard, or is it capital ?

I would imagine it's the first -- lack of market de mand, but I wonder if the Minister could give us a more definite answer. MR . EVANS: I think my honourable friend's first question with regard to , as I understood it, the capacity of municipalities to issue debentures for the creation of old age housing. I am not familiar with that subject. I'm sure that the Minister of Municipal Affairs would be glad to discuss it under his estimates .

I think his suggestion with regard to providing employment through this means is a good one and I think it' s a worthwhile question to have asked and I'm sorry that I can't give him a more satisfactory answer. With regard to str.awboard, this is the first factory of its kind in Manitoba although the process has been succes sful in Alberta . I'm sure that if it proves to be succes sful and they make a profit that others will seek out the opportunity to do it as well . It only began last year and perhaps people are watching the experiment. I think that's the only thing I can say. MR . J .M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows) Mr.

Chairman, just on this part (

c) here. I'm not quite clear as to who has the responsibility of the three very important departments or groups , that is , town planning, regional development, and urban renewal studies. The amount that we pay out in this particular department is quite a bit. The fact that it's been reduced by about -- what is it -- about $18 , 000 is another factor that we have not very clear. But what I think we'd like to know is, who is in charge of each of these particular groups -- town planning, regional development, urban renewal studies; who are the men responsible, and how big of a staff you have in each group .

I just wonder whether it's one-man gang operating and, if so, I would suggest that you get some experts in and more staff. MR . EVANS: May I ask you a question? Why do you ask that last phrase -- get more staff? MR . HA WRYLUK: ....• somewhere along the line here, I think you've reduced the amount by $18,0 00 .0 0.

Now whether you have reduced your staff in this regard, I just wondered and I think we should know, because we feel on this side of the House that more emphasis and more importance should be given on the idea of town planning after what we've heard over the radio today regarding the mess that has been created by certain bodies in the city of Winnipeg and pro bably elsewhere.

We 're getting it right and left on the radio and by other authorities and in my Throne Speech I mentioned the fact that I think the record of Wi::mipag is one of the worst as far as slum clearance and town planning that we have on the continent. MR . EVANS: Well , I'll have to take up the same point with my honourable friend as I did with the gentleman from St. Joh n's. Now, you tried to give us two thoughts: l. town planning scheme which is not proceeding in Winnipeg. And then without any qualification you say I should get more staff.

Your colleague behind you says , "No charge for delay can be charged to the Province of Manitoba up to' this very minute." MR . HAWRYLUK: This is my own opinion what I think ..... . MR . EVANS : Well , your opinion is mistaken because the city of Winnipeg has not been able to agree with its planners , the CMHC , upon a scheme to bring forward . How can we delay a scheme that hasn't yet been brought forward? Now let's be reasonable . MR . HAWRYLUK: Yes. Could you tell me how many men are employed in this particular department? MR .

EVANS: Yes, I shall be glad to tell you who they are and what they do and all about it. Some question has been asked who they are. I'd like to tell you_ The Director of the Region al Development who is responsible for the Regional Development plans as far as industrial de velopment in the country is concerned and also the

section known as Town and Rural Planning March 9, 1962 Page 577

(Mr . Evans , cont'd) .....

Section is Mr. R.B. Truemn er. He's an honours graduate in geography from the University of Toronto , 1950 ; also took post-graduate training in town and regional plan ning in 1957 from the University of Toronto . Following gradu ation, Mr . Truemner worked for nine years with the Ontario Gove rnment in transportation planning. Mr . Truemner also worked for some time in the Ontario Department of Planning and Development. In his work he was a community planner spec! alizing in regional planning studie s. Mr. J. L. McMurtrie who is head of the community development section.

He's BSc from the Unive rsity of Manitoba; twelve years' experience with the department in Industrial and Re gional Development Branches. Mr. D. G. Henderson who now comes down to be most directly in charge of these town planning arrangements. He's a Master of Architecture in Community Planning from the University of Manitoba with ten years' practical planning experience with the Metropolitan Planning Commission and as Fort William' s Director of Planning. Those are the heads of the sections . Then I would tell my honourable friend that Mr. McMurtrie has for his staff, three consultants, Messrs.

Young, Gall and Norget, and one Clerk IV, Miss L. Mcintyre. Then associa ted with Mr. Henderson are two assoc iate planners, Mr. Woodr offe and Mr. Eaton. --(Interjection)-- Yes, three assistant planners -- Messrs . Whiting, Thomas and Filyk; one junior planner H. Karpinsky and then - the names aren't here but I'm sure my honourable friend won't miss that too much -- there are two draughtsmen III, three draughtsmen !I, three draughtsmen I, one Clerk II and two Stenogra phers . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman , I want to come back to the que stion about urban renewal again.

Is there an appropriation in another department then for sums of money? MR . EVANS : ...... of other departments' estimates. If my honourable friend is trying to get a statement out of me as to what the government's policy is and how much money there's going to be and where it is , I'm not going to give it, because it's already stated in the Speech from the Throne that it's going to be announced in a separate item . We '11 announce it at that time, disc uss it fully then, and answer any of my honourable friend's questions. MR . MOLGAT: My whole point is , Mr.

Chairman, we 'r e asked here to pass a resolution for the matter of urban renewal. My honourable friends have said in the Throne Speech that they are going to do something about it. Now surely this is the proper time to discuss what it is that they are going to do , and what I'm asking him is very simple. Are there appropriations else where in these estimates or will there be some capital supply? In which case I'm quite content to wait, as long as he gives me an answer -- yes or no . lVIR. ORLIKOW : Mr. Chairman, surely we're not -- I want to just repeat briefly what I tried to say before .

I'm not trying to get from the government, from the Minister now, a state ment of what government policy will be in the legislation. Of course that would be completely improper and the Minister would be entirely justified in refusing to give it, but if there 's no in crease in the planning staff here , I don't know of any other place where it could be . If the Min ister's not providing for an increase in the planning staff for urban renewal here , and this is the only place that I know that he can do it, then it means that for the coming year there simply won't be any.

This is the point which I'm trying to get information on. If there won't be any, if the Minister says there won •t be any, then I suppose we can all draw our assumptions as to the kind of program which the government is proposing, but it seems to me that if it's going to be more than a money-sharing program of the government, that there'S got to be some staff to administer the program . MR . EVANS : I wonder if my honourable friend wasn't listening when I provided the infor mation reque sted. I don't know whether it's his reque st or someone else's. I'll repeat it.

The sum of $90 , 000 has been provided for urban renewal studies which include continuation of the studies now under way for Churchill and Metro Winnipeg; and, in addition, provision for studies that it is anticipated will arise out of the new urban renewal program which is to be debated later. Provision has been made for at least one municipal study and two neighborhood studie s. MR . ORLIKOW : Mr. Chairman , I have one question and then I'm finished. How does that $9 0,0 00 compare with what we did last year ? Can you give me a figure for last year ? Is $90 ,0 00 the same as last year ?

Is it $90 ,0 00 new, or how much more than last year is it, if any? MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman , I'll try to locate the information for my honourable friend. This appropriation, 14 (3) (c) , shows a decrease of $18 ,0 00 for the year , accounted for as follows: Decreased total cost of urban renewal studie s, $10 , 000; with a further explanation of Page 578 March 9, 1962

(Mr. Ev=s , cont'd ) ••.. $100, 000 total cost for provincial , metro m1d Churchill studies in 1961-62; $90 , 000 provided for continuation of the metro study m1d for additional specific studies of other areas. The further expl=ation of that figure was that will include at least one municip al study and two neighborhood studies. That accounts for $10, 000 reduction. The metro studies that were made last year =d the Churchill study cost $100, 000 last year. We are providing $90 , 000 this year for similar studies. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell us which Metro study he is referring to ? MR . EVANS: We made a planning -- particularly in connection with CMHC . We made several studies of housing conditions in metropolit= Winnip eg. I haven't got those . studies here, and I'm a fraid I'm not able at the moment to give him a verbal description of it. If he would like to have a description of these studies that were made or reference to them, I'd be very glad to get it; but the cost last year was $100, 000 ,which included the Churchill study. The now somewhat famous

Part 5 studies at Churchill, in which the province pa rticipated in Parts 1 and 2. All that work went on m1d cost $100 , 000. 00. We think that the further work still required in Winnipeg and the other municipalities and elsewhere will be $90 , 000 .00. We think there will be a reduction of $10,0 00 there . Then we formerly had quarters in the Winn ipeg Electric Chambers when we were part of the Metropolitan Winnip eg Planni ng. You remember -- we used to rent quarters in the Win nipeg Electric Chambers. That's no longer the case . That saves $8 ,0 00 .00.

Now if my honourable friend would like me to get a list of these studies or describe them or something of that sort, I'd be glad to. MR. ORLIKOW : Mr. Chairman , I must confe ss that the more the Minister tries to explain, the more I become conf used. I'm not one of those people who think, and there are many people in this province and this country who think that governments have many civil servants who do noth ing. I don 't believe that. I think that, by and large, civil servants are just as efficient and just as busy as people who work for private busine ss.

Now the Minister tells us that last year in this department we spent $100 , 000 on the various studies, and the Minister says he will bring in those studies or a description of them , and I'd like to see them.

But the result of all those studies, apparently the Province of Manit oba, the Minister now tells us, did share in the work, in the planning which the city and the provin ce, the Minister says, and CMHC did -- and the re sult of all those studies are that we had an ·ar>_'lOI.mcement yesterday that we 're six months or a year from getting started on the public housing project which is planned for the city of Winnipe g. Now -- well the Minister shakes his head, but this is a fact. MR . EVANS: You're talking about a completely different plan. MR. ORLIKOW : Well maybe I am .

All l'm saying is that what we did up till now wasn't enough . The government announces in the Speech from the Throne that there's going to be legis lation; so the Province of Manitoba will be entering the field. I presume that in the capital estimates there will be money to show that we are going into the field. Then the Minister tells us we're.going to spend less money this coming year than we spent last year. Now how can - for this item of planning -- how can we do the work which is projected in the Speech from the Throne ?

How can we sensib ly, and in a busin ess -like fashion , spend the money which I pre sume will be in the capital estimates, when we're going to have less money for the people who do the planning than we had last year? It just doesn •t make sense to me, Mr . Chairman . MR. EVANS: Well I'd be glad to help clear up my honourable frien d' s misunderst andin g. The staff of the Province of Manitoba will not be engaged in creating urban renewal housing schemes for the city of Winnipeg -- period.

The most they will do will be to advise the govern ment upon that scheme when it is submitted by the city of V innipe g, which my honourable friend himself admits hasn't been submitted yet; isn't in shape to be submitted. Now does he unde rstand? The kind of studies that we have made have been the study of the requirements for urban renewal in gene ral, not tied to any particular scheme but in gene ral, not only in Winnipe g, but the esti mates of the gene ral requirements throughout the province. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Chairman , I have three further questions on this item.

One has to do with the question I asked earlier , and I ask it again because I don't feel I got an answ er . It has to do with the question as to why there appears to be no further movement in the direction of establislunent of one or two more plants for the production of strawboard. Just as by way of example -- now I don't know what the reasons are, but I don't think it's unreaso nable to ask the March 9, 1962 Page 579

(Mr . Schreyer, cont'd) ..•.•. Minister to outline to us what his department thinks of the reas ons for no further work in this direction. After all , the Minister has a rather wonderful re search staff, expert advice to feed him this information. As I said, I personally suspect it's because of lack of further market demands but I don't think it' s unre asonable to ask him to give us a more concrete answer than he did last time.

The second question has to do with the area of East Selkirk -- Selkirk where there are some persi stent rumors about the possi ble re-establishment -- I say re-establishment of a silica plant . I'm just wondering if the Minister has any information of a concrete nature as to whether this might come into actual fruition, this potential project in that area, whether this has been brought to the attention of his department yet or not.

The third question, which he may or may not be able to answer, I'l l simply ask him if any representations have been made to his department by municipal authoritie s requesting some strengthening or more teeth in town planning authority. As I understand it, there are some municipal people who feel that, in theory, town planning is something that has a lot of prospects for good, but they feel it doesn't have quite enough force or strength behind it in the present legislation. MR .

EVANS : Well, I'd be very much disposed to try to provide my friend with anything I can with respect to why there isn't another strawboard plant ope rating , or in prospect, or existing in the Province of Manitoba. I must say I don't know. To start a plant, a private enter priser has to come along and get the idea that he would like to start one; furnish his own money. Then if he comes to us , or if we could find someone who is looking for a business opportunity, and we think there is one here, we will draw it to his attention; but he must make up his mind first.

He must say: "that is something I will risk my money on." So far, no one has showed up who says that they like the idea of starting another strawboard plant. I'm sorry I can't be more definite. I'd just say that nobody has come forward who wants to do that and we haven't been able to interest anybody in doing it . MR . SCHREYER : Will you permit a question at this point ? MR . EVANS: Yes . MR . SCHREYER: Do I take it that in every case the department waits for an entrepreneur to come to them? Does the department ever try to seek out and interest someone in the prospect? MR .

EVANS: Steadily, and by every means we can. We have feasibilit y studies made, which we then advertise by circular letter and otherwise , to draw to people's attention. If they come along and if they see that there's a study in existence, we '11 give them a copy of the study. They can read it through and see what the possibilities are. For the larger opportunities or even smaller ones for that matter , we make personal calls , just like travelling salesmen, try ing to persuade people to start plants .

I can remember going to a small matt re ss factory in Montreal myself -- right clear across Montreal -- and trying to sell someone on the idea of starting a very small mattress factory out here. We're not grandiose in our ideas that we have to have great big plants before we'E go out and do face-to-face selling; but I must say that some of the larger opportunities have been using up our time. It hasn't come up on the list as something that we think is the next best prospect -- to go out and get a strawboard plant. I have no reason to believe it isn't a good idea.

We'l l keep it in mind and if we can encourage a strawboard plant we'll do so. Now I hope my honourable friend doesn't think that I'm trying to evade, but it's just that -- he asks me to read the minds of a lot of people I don't know, who might interest themselves in an investment in Manitoba in a strawboard plant . I don't even know who they are so I can't tell what they're thinking. With regard to a silica plant -- this recalls a long history of the development of that plant at Black Isl and where there is a very large supply of extremely pure silica sand . It is quite an asset.

This resource was developed by the late Mr. E.R. Gardiner who invested a good deal of money in it n.nd provided himself with barges and tugs and a good deal of machinery to get the sand; wash it; refine it; grade it and, so on; and export it. He found that he was not able, quite, to stay in busin ess. That competition , I think from Ottawa, Illin ois , prevented his oper ation from being profitable and so that operation was closed down. The best opportunity for using the silica sand will be the development of a glass factory in Manitoba.

I think perhaps the day when that is possi ble is coming close r, because more and more factories are using con tainers here. If glass is able to continue to command the proportion of the market that they Page 580 March 9, 1962

(Mr . Evans, cont'd) •...• always have, the prospects of a glass factory here are good . If , however, plastic and tin and other containers gain on glass, the prospects are not as good, and so I am not able to say whether the prospects for opening up a silica plant are good or poor. We have been trying now for something over a year, since that plant closed down, to find some way of re-opening it or getting that resource used; but have not so far been successful .

This question of teeth in The Town Planning Act is a rather delicate matter because muni cipal authorities, we feel , should be very largely in control of their own affairs ; and town planning within a municipality, we feel , should as far as pos sible be conducted by the municipal council itself. Now it is true that the Minister does have the power to make decisions to vary a town planning scheme .

We have followed the practice of not dec iding it by the province but referring 'any disputed town planning scheme to the municipal board, where a hearing is given to any citizen of a municipality or of a town planning authority, to decide whether a variation of a town plan should be allowed or not.

Just to make it a little more plain -- for example, supposing someone living on a street, that has a town planning scheme, objects to a change in the plan which would permit a factory or a filling station or something that he doesn't like to be built next to his property, or near, or whatever the case may be , and if after all the hear ings have been held within the municipality itself he is still discontented, it seemed wise to allow the individual citizen some place to appeal. That place is now the Municipal Board.

Now I wonder if my honourable friend was suggesting that the provincial authority or the provincial government should put the additional teeth into it and tell the municipalities what to do ? We prefer not to do that. We prefer to refer it to the Municipal Board, presumably a semi-judicial -- it is a semi-judicial board -- to hear the case and make an award. MR . SCHREYER : Mr. Chairman, I was asking the Minister if he could tell us whether his government has received any significant number of requests from municipal authorities to try and solve this problem . MR .

EVANS: From the authority of the municipalities -- no. MR . PETER WAGNER (Fi sher) Mr . Chairman, the other day when the Minister was giving his report he mentioned in the Interlake area that he has the intention of probably start ing an industry there -- something like hardboard. Have you got any further information where it would be located; how it's going to be developed; or by what means or from what source ? MR .

EVANS: The only reference I recall was in saying that we are conducting a region al study in the Interlake area, a special study of the Interlake area to determine how many work people live there and what skills they have; what raw material there might be; and what kind of industries might be suitable . I did n't mean to indicate there was some particular in dustry we had in view that we expected to locate in the Interlake area. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland) : Mr . Chairman, I think that we were given to under stand that quite an item was set aside for Churchill and Metro Winnipeg regarding town -plan ning.

Are these same services provided for other towns if they so request? And then a further question.· Has an individual the right to go to Town Planning and get their services or would it have to be channelled through a municipality or town? ' MR. EVANS: In all cases it is channelled through the municipality. Our staff will dis cuss with municipal authorities the general scheme of developing town planning in a given town. They will indicate the advantages of doing it and the terms under which it can be done.

Then they will draw, first of all, a general map or plan for land use within that town; how traffic should be circulated; and how, ln general, the town planning should be carried out; where the res idential areas should be; where the commerc ial should be; and where the industrial should be, even though there aren't any industries there yet. The next step then is to work with the municipal authorities and draw up a By-law and get it through its second reading. Having done all that, then we draw up a plan and scheme which is adopted here.

They pay 20� per capita for this service for a period of three years or five--l've forgotten which--and the province pays the rest of the cost of providing this municipal planning service. MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr . Chairman, do I understand therefore that for example, \ID. en the townsite of Thompson was laid out, that your particular government or 'the Town Planning Comm ittee was consulted in that regard? Would it be the same in re""ard to the atomi c site possibly over here at Selkirk ? In case there was an expansion of emplo;ees living out there, that would be your res ponsibility. Is that tt?

March 9, 1962 Page 581

MR. EVANS: These are two different kinds of cases again. Thompson is a town created by an industry. They agreed to pay for all the eo sts of the town planning, but the town planning was done by the staff of the provincial government. Now when we come to the townsite in con nection wi th the Atomi c Energy Plant, this is a federal res ponsibility and they are using their own staff, the Central Mortgage and Hous ing Corporation staff from Ottawa, in their town plann ing; but have asked us tO be associa ted with them, to be familiar wi th the plans and indeed to help them wi th it.

It is mainly their responsibility. We help where we can. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I have some further questions on this matter of urban re newal. My honourable friends on my left are more interested in the staff than in the depart ment.

What I want to find out is exactly where and when in the estima tes we will get a discuss ion of this whole matter of urban renewal, the actual activities that my honourable friends intend to indulge in, because on the Throne Speech, and I'm reading here directly from the Votes and Proceed ings, Page 2, here was the statement: "ways and means of effective co-operation wi th other levels of government in the field of public housing have been under study by my Ministers.

You wi ll be asked to give consideration to a new policy of provincial support in this connection and to make provis ion for necessa ry expenditures for the same. " Now, Mr. Chairman, there was the statement of the government. I ask the Minister where and when we will find this in estimates. Now surely he can give me an answer to that . I'm not wanting to discuss the item right now, I just want to be sure that we will be discuss ing it. There was the statement from the Throne Speech. Now where wi ll we find this item? MR. EVANS: That wi ll be discussed when the policy is brought down. MR.

MOLGAT: But when wi ll the money involved in it be com ing up? The statement is made in the Throne Speech that there wi ll be support. All I want to know is where this is com ing in . MR. EVANS: I have no information on that subject. MR. MOLGAT: Well then, Mr. Chairman, I can only assume that what was said in the Throne Speech, the government has no intention whatever of following up. MR. EVANS: You assume what you like. MR. MOLGAT: That's fine. That's a reply to my question, I suppose. MR.

CAMPBELL: It's not uncommon, and I'm sure it's the practice in here for a Minis ter to mention that such and such an item will be co vered in the Capital Supply. I think likely that is the explanation, and if the Honourable the Minister--l 'm sure that this was not put in the Speech from the Throne without the Minister in charge being aware of it--and if it's not in here, I think we're entitled to assume that it's in the Capital Supply. Would the Minister deny that it's in the Capital Supply? MR. E

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-24
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 24.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c01954c1e1b54c87082416758b0fa22b23cca0c3

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).