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December 19, 1991

35th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

GOVERNMENT CHEQUE CASHING ACT, 1991 / LOI DE 1991 SUR L'ENCAISSEMENT DE CHEQUES DU GOUVERNEMENT

Mr Morin moved second reading of Bill 154,

An Act to prohibit the Charging of Fees for the Cashing of Government Cheques / Projet de loi 154, Loi interdisant de demander des droits pour l'encaissement de chèques du gouvernement.

Mr Morin: The bill I am about to present is of great necessity. This province is in a deep recession. A 9% rate of unemployment and a major loss of permanent jobs have led to an increase in requests for social assistance. A high deficit was created in order to meet the needs of thousands of Ontarians suffering from this harsh recession.

More than one million persons in Ontario are presently receiving social assistance, 39% more than last year. That represents 10% of the population of Ontario. Growing welfare rolls, increased poverty and a continued reliance on food banks are the legacy of this recession.

On January 19, 1989, I brought the issue of charging fees for cashing government cheques before the House. Members of all parties recognized the difficulties low-income Ontarians suffer when attempting to cash their cheques. Cashing a cheque is a simple, routine task for people like ourselves. We have an array of identity cards and sufficient income to ensure our access to a variety of financial services. Low-income persons, on the contrary, face many hurdles in attempting to cash their cheques. Probably the most significant barrier between the poor and banking services is identification.

The poor, because of their financial situation, may not have access to traditional means of identification such as a birth certificate, a driver's licence, credit cards, a passport or a social insurance number.

Transients have an even greater problem in obtaining identification and then keeping it, because of their lifestyle.

Insufficient identification may prohibit the poor from opening a bank account. Even if a low-income individual successfully opens a bank account, he or she will be required to wait many days before being able to withdraw funds. Many financial institutions have a policy which provides that non-active accounts be closed. The accounts of many social assistance recipients would not qualify as active because they contain insufficient funds or are not accessed frequently enough.

Compounding the problem is the fact that practices regarding cheque cashing can vary from branch to branch. A bank has its own policies in dealing with individuals who are not branch customers. Also, many financial institutions are reluctant to handle government cheques because of the potential loss due to fraud.

The difficulty faced by low-income persons in their attempts to cash cheques have caused them to turn to third parties such as landlords, friends, corner stores and other businesses, in particular cheque cashing businesses. Why cheque cashing businesses? Because their identification requirements are less stringent. Money Mart, for example, provides customers with an ID card for a $10 fee.

In certain instances, some cheque cashing outlets have taken fingerprints as proof of identification. Cheque cashiers are easily accessible and offer much less intimidating surroundings. The catch is that they charge fees for cashing cheques.

On December 11, 1991, Money Mart was charging 4.9% to cash a postdated government cheque, 3.9% for current-dated cheques. Back in 1985, Money Mart had some 30 offices across Canada. Today, it has 92 outlets in Ontario alone. Obviously, there is money to be made.

But the question is, should that money be made to the detriment of the needy? Should profit be made literally at the expense of those citizens who can least afford to pay fees, namely, low-income persons? I say no.

In January 1992, the maximum total allowances in monthly general welfare assistance will be $646, for a single person, and $1,351 for a sole-support parent with two children. Four per cent of these sums respectively is $25.84 and $54.04. If we multiply this by 12, a single person can lose up to $310.08 and a sole-support parent up to $648.08 a year. This represents an important loss of income to people for whom government cheques are their only source of income.

Think of what those last dollars could buy. Is it fair to allow cheque cashing businesses to continue to operate to the detriment of low-income persons? Social assistance is determined after a thorough examination of a person's welfare and it is allocated to meet very specific needs. It does not include funds for any type of extra expenses.

This is why I feel so strongly about this bill. The fact is that many low-income persons are not receiving the full amount of financial assistance allocated by the province. For the reasons outlined above, they must resort to cheque cashing businesses in order to cash their cheques. It is clear that some of the very few funds this government has to spend are being redirected from the object for which they were intended.

We cannot allow the exploitation of the needy to go on. This bill prohibits the charging of fees for cashing government cheques. That is all. It is very straightforward. It represents a first step in a series of measures which must be taken to ensure better access to financial services for low-income Ontarians, because the cheque cashing issue is just one aspect of a greater problem. This problem is the lack of access low-income persons have to regular banking services.

That is why the bill provides for a delay of six months. Before its implementation on July 1, 1992, the government has time to negotiate an agreement with the Canadian Bankers Association or with any other authority regarding cheque cashing and access to better financial services. An agreement could set out specific conditions under which accounts could be opened and held by low-income persons regardless of the sums involved. It could determine appropriate documents for identification purposes.

The six-month delay also allows the government time to eliminate the practice of postdating all its cheques. Postdating cheques contributes to the problems faced by social assistance recipients anxious to cash their cheques as soon as they receive them. It would allow the government time to undertake any other measure that could improve the present situation faced by low-income Ontarians. For example, the direct deposit program could be extended to all types of government cheques.

This bill protects all government cheques from fees. This is an important point because government cheques represent, for example, between 40% to 45% of Money Mart's business. Not just social assistance cheques, but old age pension and family allowance cheques, among others, are being cashed. It is almost as if the government were subsidizing cheque cashing businesses at a rate of 40% to 45%. This is not acceptable.

This bill concerns an activity not covered under present legislation. Cheque cashing businesses are not regulated. Is it necessary to resort to legislation in order to resolve the cheque cashing problems we have been discussing? Yes, it is. The charging of fees for government cheques will continue as long as it is not expressly forbidden by law.

This bill is entirely appropriate. Not only does it strictly prohibit the charging of fees for cashing government cheques, but it allows government time to seek more creative and effective methods of dealing with a problem that simply will not go away. The growth of cheque cashing businesses illustrates well the need for more adequate banking services that are accessible to all members of society.

Mr Jackson: I am pleased to rise in the House today to participate in the debate on Bill 154,

An Act to prohibit the Charging of Fees for the Cashing of Government Cheques, tabled by the member for Carleton East. This, as we know, is the second occasion on which he has tabled this private member's bill, the other occasion being January 19, 1989.

This bill is a noble effort, but it is only one way of responding to the problems faced by recipients of social assistance in Ontario, who cannot readily obtain services at banks and who are then forced to go to grocery stores which require a portion of the cheque to be spent on groceries, or to cheque cashing agencies which can charge from as low as 1.5% to as high as 4.9% of the value of that cheque as the cost associated with cashing them.

The aim of this proposed legislation is to ensure that the recipients of social assistance can obtain the full amount of benefits they are entitled to without having to pay to these cheque cashing agencies. The principle involved here is, therefore, one of consumer freedom as well as justice. No one should have to pay for cashing their social assistance cheque.

It would be unfortunate, however, if the blame for the lack of consumer freedom that presently exists in this regard in Ontario were to be laid completely at the door of these cheque cashing outlets. These outlets do, in fact, fill a need in this province, as they do nationally. That need has been created by banks, or rather the failure of banks, which often refuse to deal with recipients of social assistance, sometimes under any circumstances, but the ones most noted are that many social assistance recipients do not have a permanent address or cannot obtain two, three or four pieces of personalized identification, which is the means on which banks are refusing to cash these cheques.

There are also those recipients of welfare who would still choose to deal with cheque cashing outlets for a variety of reasons even if they had access to regular banks. Telling recipients they must go to certain financial institutions and not to others may be robbing them of one of their basic rights, which is a right of specific choice as consumers in our society. The freedom of choice should not be impeded in our society and, therefore, when we look at legislation that purports to limit choices we should be very careful and proceed cautiously.

Welfare cheques are not the only guarantors of dignity of those who must rely on them. Their dignity rests also in their value of independence and their personal responsibility for their own actions. Their abilities cannot be replaced by a centralized government bureaucracy pretending to be a paternalistic Big Brother. I stress that because when I reviewed the debate of January 19, 1989, there was extensive discussion about a welfare recipient ID card, and I consider that to be somewhat repugnant.

I notice that was a concern raised by my colleague the member for Hamilton West in that debate, as well as the member for -- I should know; it will come to me in a moment, but it is a member of the government today who was in opposition at the time.

However, the point I am stressing is that the member for Carleton East, who has presented us with this bill today, has only made passing reference to this identification of social assistance recipients, but he did say some form of ID would be considered. I think we are putting the cart before the horse to be getting into that kind of discussion until that has been fleshed out and shared in more detail with all members of this House.

The six-month delay period which is built into this legislation is a significant part of its presentation. Although not spelled out clearly, this time period is specifically set aside for negotiations with chartered banks in Ontario in order to work out some arrangement for improving access for social assistance recipients and people living at low-income levels. Negotiations are under way, and that has been mentioned. These are involving a Metropolitan Toronto community services department and a number of financial institutions.

In a recent

article in the paper, we are told there are three unnamed banks negotiating vying for this business. There is no reason the process of negotiations with banks could not be extended to include cheque cashing agencies. I think we have to be very careful of suggesting that we institute penalties and put out of business an entire sector of business in this province, which we are told has 92 outlets that employ over 450 people in Ontario. Rather, from my perspective, we should be negotiating with all parties to resolve all aspects of access for low-income people to a more equitable, fair treatment in the process of cashing their social assistance cheques.

I would like to suggest as well that in the First Report of the Advisory Group on New Social Assistance Legislation, Back on Track, it is stated that all people in Ontario are entitled to equal assurance of life opportunities in a society that is based on fairness, shared responsibility and personal dignity for all. On page 63, under "Direct Deposit," it is further stated, "The client should have a choice about how assistance is delivered, and some people may prefer a cheque." Therefore, recipients should be in the position to make an informed choice about how they wish to have their moneys handled.

I have expressed the concerns I have with respect to the private member's bill. I support the honourable member for Carleton East for his excellent intentions in bringing this bill forward again. However, I believe the process of negotiations that is under way with financial institutions and Metro Toronto social services should be expanded. We should not be eliminating an entire sector from this province as part of those negotiations.

We, as a government body, should not impose a legislative framework which in effect creates a monopoly for banks, whose record clearly shows have not been socially responsible in their treatment of cashing cheques for social assistance recipients in Ontario. Therefore, I wish to add to the debate those concerns to help guide the House in its treatment of this bill.

Mr Fletcher: It is a pleasure to rise today to speak on this resolution put forward by the honourable member for Carleton East, a piece of legislation I can certainly support. Bill 154 is meant to ensure that all the dollars government distributes to people through income security programs get into the pockets of those for whom they are intended. This legislation will apply to all levels of government, whether it be federal, provincial or municipal, and it will apply to all forms of government cheques: family benefits, unemployment insurance, workers' compensation, Canada pension and income tax.

The member for Carleton East's primary concern is for the poor and those who rely on social assistance. That concern is also shared by all members on this side of the House. For years, people who have been unable to get their cheques cashed by a local bank have had to turn to a variety of different alternatives: grocery stores, department stores, bars and third parties such as landlords, relatives and friends. The fees charged for these services range from nothing when it is a relative or a friend to more than 50% of what the cheque actually is, especially when it is a bar or some place like that.

Private cheque cashing companies are a relatively recent option, first appearing in 1982. These outlets charge fees averaging from 3% to 6% of the value of the cheque. To a person on social assistance, that 3% or 6% can mean the difference between a meal and no meal. A lot of the funds lost are fees that represent not only a hardship for the individual but also redirect scarce tax dollars from the intended goal of helping the poor to generating profits for the cheque cashers. In effect, the taxpayers are subsidizing the profits of commercial cheque cashing outlets.

Why do people go to these outlets? Obviously it is an alternative because, first, many financial institutions -- and it has already been said by other members -- will not handle government cheques. Why? Because they are afraid they are going to lose money from fraud. They try to protect themselves from forgeries, stolen cheques.

The second and perhaps the most significant is the identification requirements. Again, it has been said that those without acceptable identification find themselves in a catch-22 situation. If you do not have an account you cannot cash a cheque without sufficient identification. If you do not have sufficient identification you cannot open an account. What identification do most banks require? Social insurance number, driver's licence, major credit card. For some people these are items they do not even know exist. Many times the people who do have identification have it stolen; if they do not have a fixed address, they lose their identification.

It is a hardship. Usually the postdating of social assistance cheques means that people receive their cheques several days before they are dated, and if there is an immediate need they cannot get them cashed because of the postdating. Some people prefer not to deal with banks. I can understand that. Every time you walk in the door you get charged for something. If you sneeze you know you are going to get charged a little more. Welfare cheques cannot be seized by creditors. Nothing prevents a bank from taking a payment if it is deposited into account.

There are solutions to the problem. One of the solutions is to try and help minimize the profits of those who exploit the predicament of the poor -- I believe that is what the member for Carleton East is trying to do -- and also to enhance the poor's access to financial services they require.

The first solution of trying to minimize profits has a problem. Prohibiting the charging of fees will not alone ensure that social assistance clients receive the full amount of their benefits. It will simply exclude the poor from access to cheque cashing and may force people to resort to other means that will cost a higher proportion. Without corresponding legislation to make it mandatory for banks to cash cheques and open accounts, those who rely on social assistance may be in even worse shape.

This concern is raised, as the member opposite has indicated, by the Metropolitan Toronto community services department. It is also pointed out by the Legal Assistance of Windsor in its letter to the member for Carleton East.

The second solution of enhancing access to financial services may be a better one. As I said before, everyone realizes that when you walk into a bank there is a charge and the charge will sometimes be as much as what people are paying when they cash their cheques at the Money Marts.

A voluntary system of direct deposit has been recommended, but there is a problem with direct deposit of funds, even though it is reliable and eliminates the potential for lost or stolen cheques. This program was launched by the Ministry of Community and Social Services for family benefit cheques on a voluntary basis in July 1991. By the end of August, there were about 38,000 who had signed and these numbers have now increased to 68,000. The banks are saying it is a bit of a headache for them.

The ministry plans to extend direct deposit options to general welfare assistance in the spring of 1992 and to deal with the issue of postdated cheques to allow a client to cash a cheque as soon as it is received. Community and Social Services has requested that municipalities review and, where appropriate, change the data on the GWA cheque dates to match the mailing dates. Several municipalities have adopted this procedure, Ottawa-Carleton being one. Direct deposit does not address the problem faced by those without bank accounts. It also leaves social assistance benefits vulnerable to garnishment.

I agree that Bill 154 is an important starting point, but I believe that before we get to the point where we can really protect the consumer and protect the poor, we have to do something about the corporate ripoff artists known as banks. There is a need for consultation on the kinds of identification that will be needed. Also, we look forward to further discussion. We cannot allow the poor to be exploited the way they have been.

Mrs Caplan: I rise with a sense of pride. My pride is because the member who has proposed this motion, the member for Carleton East, is a colleague of whom I am particularly proud. I know of his pride as he represents his riding of Carleton East. I take great pride in having the member as a colleague. I believe he is one of the most respected members of this House.

This is the second time he has proposed this private member's bill, and it is my hope that this bill will receive third reading and be proclaimed by the government. I would like to point out that the member has done a great deal of work not only on behalf of his own constituents, but on behalf of the people of this province. He has done a lot of research into this issue. We are aware that his bill, which is before the House today for debate, has two very specific objectives, and they are very clear.

Second, it addresses a broader issue which I know is of concern to many people. It has been addressed in the Social Assistance Review Committee report. It has been addressed before legislative committees. Sadly, to this point in time, no action has been taken. This second issue is the issue of access to banking services and the banking system by the poor. Unfortunately, in this province alone, we know that the numbers of people on social assistance are at an outrageously high level. That saddens me in particular, and I know it is of concern to every member of this House regardless of their political, partisan philosophy.

We see the numbers of people in this country who are unemployed and who have been devastated by this recession we are in now. We know they want jobs. We know they want the ability to work. We also know they want to have the pride of being able to access the kinds of services within the banking system that every other Canadian, every other resident of this great country who can produce identification, has access to. We know the barriers are often extremely difficult for the poor, who do not have bank accounts because they do not have any money to put in the bank.

We know they do not have access because they do not have driver's licences because they do not drive a car. We know they may not have three pieces of identification. Those have been barriers to access to the banking system which, frankly, have not been addressed by those institutions, and that does not excuse them.

This bill has two objectives. As I said, the first is to prohibit the charging of a fee for the cashing of a government cheque. Second, it will require banks and the banking system in this province to do what has been done in other jurisdictions to solve a systemic problem. This has been addressed through federal legislation and in negotiations between the banking system and the federal government. We know it has been addressed in Quebec and Alberta.

Given the reasonableness of this bill by the member for Carleton East, there is sufficient time that it can be addressed before this bill would take effect. I believe that is one of the finest features of this bill, because it does not say, "Do it tomorrow." It will not place any hardship on anyone. I want to congratulate my colleague, because he has the support of the Canadian banking industry. The banking industry has agreed it is willing to work with government to solve these problems, which is the second objective of this bill.

I would like to put in the record just a few comments on the kind of support the member for Carleton East has received, because I have copies of these letters and I think they speak to the significance of this bill.

One is from the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, which talks about "hardship caused by operations like Money Mart who prey on people's desperation by taking a cut for cashing inadequate welfare cheques. Mr Morin's initiative is badly needed and we support it fully. Far from being a trivial issue, the elimination of cheque cashing practices is a matter of vital concern to hundreds of thousands of low-income Ontario residents."

This next letter is from the community services department of Metropolitan Toronto: "The private member's bill itself is a starting point for discussion among relevant Ontario ministries, banks and ourselves to flesh out a comprehensive strategy. I am very supportive of your initiative to deal with the serious and frustrating situation and would be pleased to assist you further in your efforts in resolving it."

I have another letter from Metropolitan Toronto, which says: "The community services department has expressed concern for many years over the potential for exploitation of welfare recipients in cashing cheques. Any legislative and/or regulatory system that reduces the potential for exploitation...would be welcomed."

Basic Poverty Action Group sends this letter, written to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: "This letter is to express our strong support for the proposed Act to Prohibit the Charging of Fees for the Cashing of Government Cheques presented recently by Mr Gilles Morin, MPP, Carleton East. We look forward to seeing your government take this important and relatively simple step. It will make a significant difference for many low-income persons in Ontario."

From Legal Assistance of Windsor: "We urge you to support the efforts of the National Anti-Poverty Organization and others concerned about the exploitation of the poor made possible by unregulated private cheque cashing organizations." More support for the member for Carleton East.

From the Consumers' Association of Canada: "We recognize that service charges or surcharges are an additional burden to those who can least afford them. Therefore, we support Mr Morin's initiative in proposing the Government Cheque Cashing Act, 1991, and trust that it will receive quick passage."

From Dundurn Community Legal Services, writing on behalf of their clients, who are low-income people, many of whom rely on various forms of government support: "On their behalf we are writing to give our support for the bill prohibiting the charging of fees for cashing a government cheque. Money which is intended to assist the poor is instead generating great profits for cheque cashers. This problem was identified by the Social Assistance Review Committee."

The Cheque Cashers Association of Canada has a different point of view, and I can certainly understand that. Its members are the very people who are cashing those cheques. They have responded to a legitimate need because the banks have not responded.

To this association, I say that we legislators in Ontario have an obligation to look at an issue and ask what is in the public interest, what is in the public good. We understand the specific interests of the different organizations and associations, but as we stand and speak and cast our vote, we must do so in what we believe is in the interest of the people of this province. I believe the private member's bill by the member for Carleton East which is before the House today is in the public interest. I believe it is worthy of support. I urge all members to vote for this important piece of legislation.

I urge the government to call it for third reading and allow the member's bill to become law.

Mr J. Wilson: I am pleased to rise and give four minutes of comments on Bill 154. I will say from the outset that I will not be supporting the legislation. I want to make that clear, unlike some of the remarks where we could not tell whether the speaker was supporting it or not. During the campaign, I told my constituents I would always tell them how I stand on pieces of legislation.

It seems to me that this is another attempt by the Liberal socialists to outdo the Marxist socialists of the NDP across the floor. They both pretend they have the corner on compassion, but I do not understand how in the world this bill, which is going to put a further 460 people on the unemployment rolls, could be interpreted as compassion. It is another negative bill in our society. We have had too much government for far too long that gets up and presents legislation that says, "You can't do this and you can't do that." It is another hammer on the private sector.

The private sector charges a small fee to cash government cheques. It is not just social assistance cheques; it is 3.8 million federal and provincial cheques that are issued each month by the federal and provincial governments. A lot of people use these cheque cashing convenience outlets. They charge the fee because they take a risk. There is a risk in being an employee in this province, which the NDP Marxist socialists refuse to acknowledge, and there is a risk to doing business. They take a risk, because we know there is fraud in the welfare system, and they take a loss on some of those cheques.

They also take a risk because with the $10-billion deficit, who knows if this government's cheques are going to be good tomorrow? There are all kinds of risks in the private sector. They charge a small fee to do it, and I do not think we should be putting these convenience outlets out of business, putting another 460 people on the unemployment rolls.

I think the bill is self-defeating. It would have been better to have a bill that was positive, that brought forward positive measures that the banks and the cheque cashing convenience outlets could do, rather than another negativism. At this time, I do not think putting another 460 on the unemployment rolls is at all an objective of this Legislature. It is not for the betterment of the public, and for that reason alone, I will not be supporting this legislation.

Mr Owens: I thought McCarthyism was dead; however, I think it reared its ugly head this morning.

I am very pleased to stand in my place and support the member for Carleton East with respect to Bill 154. I share the member's sense of outrage that the people who are most vulnerable in this society are being taken advantage of.

These organizations like Money Mart live a parasitic existence, and if they were forced to live on their own in the free market system that the members opposite seem to advocate, they would never be able to survive. They are living simply because they have the advantage of a closed market system where they cash the welfare cheques, taking somewhere between 3% and 6% away from these people who clearly cannot afford it.

Unlike the columns that have been written in the past by some Toronto tabloids that these members seem to identify with, people do not make $45,000 a year on social assistance. If that were the case, people would be quitting their jobs today.

Two community legal workers at Scarborough Community Legal Services -- and I know the member for Scarborough North is familiar with this legal service -- Nancy Vanderplaats, who was on the interclinic committee for social assistance, and Linda Mitchell, who was on the interclinic committee for Metro housing as well as on the interclinic committee on domestic violence, strongly support this legislation. They contacted me and urged this government to support this legislation. As I say, I am proud to stand in my place to support the member for Carleton East.

There are some suggestions, however, that I would like to make to the honourable member. In terms of the negotiations going on, I would suggest we expand these to include credit unions, caisse populaires and trust companies. We simply cannot restrict the business to the banks. We all know how impoverished the banks are, with I believe $740 million in profits -- somebody could correct me -- the banks have made this year.

The second issue is with respect to universal identification. I have problems with identifying and separating people out of society and giving those folks specific identification.

The practices of the banking industry clearly need to be investigated and changed, and I think the member for Oriole made a good point in terms of poor people having bank accounts. There is no way that people on social assistance are ever going to be able to afford to have bank accounts. Banks are now looking at having $1,000 minimum on deposit before they stop implementing service charges. There are not very many on social assistance, if any at all, who will ever have $1,000 in the bank as savings.

As a person who does not hold a driver's licence, I had to obtain a Visa card in order to have a chequing account, so we need to look into the kinds of practices around the requirement for identification.

In closing, again I would like to state that I support the member in his quest and I share the outrage he has expressed throughout these proceedings. We need to start taking care of the people who are unable to take care of themselves. Simply setting up a private business and supporting this kind of private business through the exploitation of those who cannot afford to take care of themselves is clearly inappropriate. I and my colleagues will be supporting this bill this morning.

Mr Conway: I am delighted to be here this morning to support my colleague, the member for Carleton East, for what I think is a timely piece of legislation. I want to indicate, in supporting this bill, that some of what has been said really attracts my attention.

The member for Simcoe West made the observation that there is the prospect, and I think he is quite right, that there could be some fraudulent transaction and therefore we should be very reluctant to consider this kind of legislation. He even went so far as to say that there is perhaps a concern around welfare fraud. I do not remember his words exactly but it was certainly in that connection. There is certainly welfare fraud; there is fraud throughout the entire community, we all know that.

One of the things about fraudulent transactions that I want to talk about very briefly this morning is what is going on at the congressional bank in Washington. I do not know how many of my colleagues have been watching the stories out of Capitol Hill this summer and fall, but it was discovered that there is a very special kind of bank at Capitol Hill available only to senators and members of Congress, and at last count some 6,000 congressional cheques had bounced.

It is a great story. I do not believe the banking institutions across the United States have moved to shut down that bank. In fact, I am absolutely certain they have not, nor will they. I find it breathtaking that there could be 6,000 rubber cheques issued by elected members of Congress in 1991, but that is the incontrovertible reality.

So I agree with my friend the member for Simcoe West that there is fraud in the land. Sometimes it is to be found in great quantity in places where one would not expect it.

My point is, in supporting my friend the member for Carleton East, who is a very sensible man, a very decent -- to be called a Marxist-Leninist Liberal socialist is to bring hyperbole to a level on a Thursday morning that is unbecoming. I must say that, unlike myself and many members of this assembly, perhaps even the member for Simcoe West, the member for Carleton East has met a payroll. He spent long and distinguished years as an entrepreneur in the private sector so he brings to this not just a good legislative reputation but a very good and distinguished career in the private sector.

What he has asked this Legislature to affirm is a fair and reasonable proposal. I put to my colleagues again: Can they imagine once a month taking their legislative indemnity cheque down to some money mart in this building or on Wellesley Street and being told: "Well, Mr Wilson, that's very good. That's $2,200, less 4.9% or 3.9%"? That policy would last about a month and my friend the member for Simcoe West and all of us would gather together and say: "Discount Her Majesty's payment? You've got to be kidding. What could be better paper than Her Majesty's credit?"

Mr J. Wilson: This bill won't solve that problem, Sean, and you know it.

Mr Conway: I say to my friend the member for Simcoe West that what my friend the member for Carleton East has wisely provided for is an opportunity for the government and the Canadian Bankers Association to work out reasonable arrangements that will protect the interests of the consumer and the taxpayer in this connection.

I cannot believe there is any caterwauling Tory in Simcoe or anywhere else who would honestly believe you could and should discount a provincial or federal cheque in Her Majesty's name to the most needy people in this province or in this country. If they believe, as good, decent Tories in my part of the world do and good Tories in Glengarry, that we must show a particular need and sensitivity to those most disadvantaged in our community, why should social assistance recipients be disadvantaged because they do not participate in the banking and bureaucratic world of the more well-off in this community, including members of the Legislature?

I repeat, members of this assembly would not tolerate for a moment a provision where we would take our indemnity cheques and have them discounted by anyone to the tune of 3.9% or 4.9%.

As usual, the member for Carleton East has brought forward a policy that is sensitive, sensible and liberal-minded, and I would expect it to be supported by all liberal-minded, reform-oriented people who, in their comfortable pew in this Legislature, would want to do no less for the disadvantaged than is done for themselves.

Mrs Cunningham: One of the most interesting parts of my job is sitting in this House over the years and listening to the rhetoric. I will put the question to the member for Renfrew North: Where was he that January when he was in government, January 1989, when his colleague got the bill through? What did he do about it? We voted for it two years ago and it just sat in the back door. Nobody did anything about it. Shame on him. The member should be careful what he speaks to in this House. Let's see what happens to it this time.

To the members who spoke in favour, let's face it, we are talking about welfare recipients right now. The bottom line is that they should keep all the money we give them and nobody takes any money away in a charge, especially as much as 4.8%. That is what we all want. That is why we are supporting this legislation. By the way, if members really believe that, they should not be thinking about video machines for lotteries because that takes money from the poor.

The next question is, why would this government have cut out the debt counselling services for the very people who need it? You cannot speak in favour of one thing one day and come out with policies like that the next day. If you care about --

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): Order. Interjections are out of order, particularly when the members are not in their own seats. I would remind the honourable member for London North to please address her remarks through the Chair.

Mrs Cunningham: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I love looking at the Chair, especially when you are sitting in it, but can I have back on the clock those 10 seconds they took away from me by interjecting? All right.

Let us talk about process here. Everybody knows that when this bill is passed it can be sent to committee. When it goes to committee, all the parts of this bill that people have concerns about with regard to doing a lot of consultation with the banks -- I think we have to do that, and the member spoke about this two years ago. When we look at inviting feedback from the banking community we make sure the clients will not suffer any garnishments, because that is part of the problem if we were to go to direct deposit or some other way of doing things.

If we want to take a look at all the options we have to do this in committee, otherwise a client should have the right to use the options the member put forth two years ago and again this morning. There are more options than just what meets the face of things in this bill today. We may have to change the bill if we are looking at public input. We may have to change the fines; we may have to take a look at the day of enforcement.

Given the mess we are in right now, Mr Speaker -- I will address my remarks to you -- we do not even know when we are coming back. We are not able to conduct business in this House because the government has been totally irresponsible in the last four or five days and totally inconsistent in what those members thought about cabinet members' performance and responsibilities when they were in opposition and what they are now, so we have arguments in this Legislative Assembly.

By the way, with due respect, my colleague the member for Simcoe West and I have something of a difference of opinion here. We do not whip people into votes either in the regular conduct of this Legislative Assembly or in private member's hour. He is in fact representing his constituents and I think he would agree with me that if this were to go to the committee his concern should be fully discussed. Perhaps the member would take it into consideration and offer some amendments. That is how this place works and that is how the process works.

In conclusion, anything we can do to help welfare recipients retain all the dollars the taxpayers give them to feed and clothe their families and pay for the roof over their heads we should be supporting in any way. I think the member has given us a responsible option and if we refer this to committee we can make the changes that would reflect the concerns of the members of this Legislative Assembly.

Mr Mills: It is a pleasure and an honour for me to stand here this morning and support the bill introduced by the member for Carleton East. I have great compassion with this issue. In my last life I used to go to work and there was a traffic light outside one of these cashing machines. It used to wrench my heart as I stopped at that red light at the end of the month and saw the people on welfare and social assistance queued up with their cheques in hand to enter this building to get their money discounted.

The member for Renfrew North spoke very well about the security of government cheques. The analogy I use is that it is like betting on a horse that has already passed the winning post. If anything is secure it is a government cheque. It is a great injustice that we have so many people living on the bare requirements to survive who have to give up some of that money just to cash a government cheque which we all know is secure.

Perhaps we should look at a direct deposit system for those social assistance recipients. I know my friends across the road, the ultra right-wing Conservative Party, will get all upset and say that once we have direct deposit it will go on and on and there will be no accountability. That is absolute rubbish. As we all know here, it will not keep on unabated.

We all know that in this dreadful time of recession the only industry that has generated the biggest profits in the history of Canada are the banks. I cannot understand for one minute why the banks every month come up with some wonderful scheme to make even more money. I got a letter the other week that suggested I should pay $2 a month and I can get a photostat of my cheques. If they have all that ingenuity, why do they not apply it to help the people on social assistance? Why do they not use some of that expertise to help the poor of this country instead of racking up millions of dollars in the banks, which those people over there support and think are so wonderful?

I am going to give a little time for one of my colleagues who wants to close. The money intended to go to the poor must go 100% to the poor and it must not on any account generate profits for some entrepreneur who wants to take advantage of those people who are not well off.

Mr Mammoliti: I am very upset at the fact that I see some members here who do not approve of this bill. I want to remind everybody that what the members who disapprove want to stop is that bag of milk and loaf of bread that people on social assistance need. That is what they want to stop. I am sick and tired of the members who are so selfish in thinking this way. This is selfishness. This is profit-making on the backs of people who cannot afford a bag of milk, and they have the audacity to sit there and disapprove of this bill.

I do commend the member who brought this forward and I will be supporting this bill in the vote.

Mr Morin: I would like to thank my colleagues for taking the time to speak out on an issue we should all feel strongly about. I believe this is an issue that not only merits our immediate attention but demands immediate action. This action can only be taken by the government. It is up to this government to rectify past oversights. It has a unique opportunity to set things right.

I would add that this issue rests squarely within the government's philosophy of helping the needy, helping those who cannot help themselves. This issue appeals to the government's social conscience, to all our consciences. We, as elected representatives of the people of Ontario, have not only a duty but the moral responsibility to help the needy. This situation, the charging of fees for cashing government cheques, illustrates clearly the vulnerability of low-income persons in our society. This vulnerability is preyed upon by businesses intent on reaping profits.

The freedom to dispose of one's income, which is the argument used by the president of Money Mart to justify his position, is a blatant distortion of reality.

The real issue is the proper allocation of government funds, especially those intended for humanitarian objectives such as helping the needy. The real issue is ensuring that all Ontarians regardless of their income enjoy access to a wide range of banking services. We cannot allow the charging of fees for cashing government cheques to continue any longer.

Mrs Caplan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I have been looking in the standing orders to see how I might point out to the Speaker and the House that a special guest is in the Speaker's gallery today. The member for Carleton East's son was here to hear his remarks, and I do not know how I can make that introduction to the House.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): I think you did very well. Thank you very much.

TARTAN DAY

Mr McLean, on behalf of Mr B. Murdoch, moved resolution 36:

That in the opinion of this House, recognizing the multicultural nature of Ontario and the contributions of the Scottish community to the economic, agricultural and cultural wellbeing of Ontario, and recognizing that the 6th day of April is a day of historical significance to the Scottish community, as it marks the anniversary of the declaration of Scottish independence made in 1320, this House should proclaim the 6th day of April as Tartan Day.

Mr B. Murdoch: I am sorry I was late. I was out in the alleyway looking after some of my friends and making sure everybody was getting in; when you do things like that, sometimes you are late yourself.

Mr McLean: They just wish they were Scots.

Mr B. Murdoch: They may wish they were Scottish.

Under severe conditions, my ancestors and the ancestors of many other members of this House, using their native Celtic courage, built villages and churches, grist and sawmills, blacksmiths' shops and, of course, breweries; I am sure the Scottish always liked that.

Mr Mills: And still do.

Mr B. Murdoch: And still do, right. Good roads linked these settlements to their farms on the land which they cleared. The Scottish pioneers in Ontario were industrious people. In addition to farming, which was the backbone of Upper Canada, they excelled in business and finance. They were able merchants who engaged in global trade. They exported grain, timber, potash and livestock to the West Indies, England and Scotland. They also imported sugar and rum. We know we always needed that rum.

They also were prominent in the shipbuilding industry, supplying Britain when her need was great to assist with the wars with France in 1793, before our time. Scots in the 19th century exercised skills acquired before migrating or newly learned in North America as millwrights, coppersmiths, sawyers, masons, builders, cobblers, weavers, dyers, tailors, ironworkers and bakers; in short, as mechanics or artisans in all of the callings of which their young communities had need.

They established cheese factories, flour mills, fanning mills, sawmills, paper mills and carding mills. Members will not be surprised to hear that they also started, again, many distilleries.

Grey county is proud to have such a heritage. Today we have a lot of people here from Grey county and from the surrounding counties of Bruce, Wellington and Dufferin. We are pleased to have inherited the industrious ways of our forefathers. We are also proud of the culture which they handed down to us. We want to keep it alive and share it with others. That is the purpose of this resolution.

As members know, we have a colourful and distinctive culture. The wearing of the plaid is a strong tradition and the music of the bagpipes must haunt everyone no matter what their heritage. Highland dancing is an art. To support me, many people of my riding have come to participate today.

We have the Shelagh Milne and Eleanor Brennan School of Dance, which is famous worldwide. They have won many awards and honours. Ann Milne has been Ontario champion 13 times, Canadian champion 12 times, Commonwealth champion, and she has also won the world championship four times. She lives in Owen Sound in my riding. She has also performed for the royal family. Alison Milne has been a Canadian champion, as has Dawn Brennan who, with Shelagh, is here today. I think they are just coming in, so maybe we will introduce them later. Dawn has been a Canadian and world champion. The Owen Sound Highland Dancers have performed at Disneyland and Walt Disney World.

I would like to take a moment to recognize and thank some of our Scottish dancers who have come here today: Jacqueline Bruce, Melissa Risebrough, Crystal Baker, Kelly McCoy, Ashley Clark, Stephanie Drysdale, Laura Drysdale, Heather Edwards, Melissa Harron, Bonnie Muzzell, Tianna Marcella and Heather Dixon.

Two pipe bands have also come down from my riding. I am proud to introduce the Hanover Legion Branch 130 Pipes and Drums. It was formed by Jack Harris in 1973 and has travelled extensively. It has played at the Rose Bowl, Orange Bowl, the highland games in Fergus and the Royal Highland Games in Scotland. They are a teaching band whose pupils have turned into champions. They sponsor the St Andrew's dance every year in November. They are directed and instructed by Pipe Major Jim Curran and they meet every Thursday in the Hanover hall.

I am also delighted to have the Mount Forest Cameron Highlanders with me today. I share this band with my friend the member for Wellington. It is a border town and we both have them in our riding. The band was formed in the winter of 1950 under the direction of Pipe Major Jack Gillespie. At that time he pulled together a group of community lads from the area and began practices in the basement of his home in Mount Forest. The band is still together today and it practises and plays weekly. They are currently under the direction of Alec Watson and Drum Major Jim Arthur. Thanks for coming, guys and girls.

Interjection.

Mr B. Murdoch: We also have women who play in our pipe bands. I wanted to make sure people down here knew that.

I would like to also recognize the people who are partly responsible for the introduction of this resolution. There are four members of the Clans and Scottish Societies of Canada in the members' gallery. I would like to thank them for their contribution to this morning's debate. They are very interested in this resolution and would like to see it passed.

My greatest thanks have to go to my friend Ron MacDonnell, who is from Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry. Without him I would not be standing here properly clothed. I have to thank Ron for that.

I know there are many people on both sides of the House who want to support this resolution and speak on it. I will leave the rest of my remarks till my wrapup.

Mr Sutherland: It is a great pleasure for me to rise and support this motion today. I want to compliment the member for Grey for bringing it forward. I have had the pleasure of watching and enjoying the Shelagh Milne dancers from Owen Sound. They are truly a great credit to the riding of Grey and to this province, and a great tribute overall.

In 1852 my ancestors came from Scotland, settled in Oxford county, in the township of Zorra, cleared the land and established the farm. Oxford county has a very strong Scottish heritage. I think this bill is a very good bill indeed.

I want to say that each year on July 1, as in many communities, in the village of Embro, a few miles from where I grew up, they have the highland games every July 1. It is so appropriate that the Zorra Caledonian Society has for many years been sponsoring the highland games to preserve and promote Scottish heritage, to hear the bands, to have highland dancing going on. That is a great event every year. They have a magic touch because, for as long as anyone can remember, it has never rained on the highland games on July 1 in Embro. We are certainly hoping that luck will continue.

Also in the town of Ingersoll, we have the Ingersoll Pipe Band. It is certainly well known and has played at many events. Internationally, on many occasions it has been down to the Indianapolis 500 to participate in its parade and it participates in many other parades in the riding.

I am wearing a Sutherland tartan tie today and I am very proud to be doing that. I want to thank the office of the member for Simcoe East for supplying that for me, because unfortunately I did not have one available.

I have never been to Scotland. I have not had the opportunity to see where my ancestors came from. I certainly hope to do that.

This bill is important for two reasons. It talks about recognizing the multicultural nature of Ontario. Many people in my community, while very proud of their Scottish heritage, do not see that as part of the multicultural fabric of this province. When it comes to multiculturalism, we know there are many critics; certainly members of the Reform Party are very critical of promoting multiculturalism. When we say "multiculturalism," that does not mean we throw out the past and just bring in the new. Multiculturalism means we allow tolerance and understanding of everyone being able to celebrate their culture and heritage.

In this House we have many members of different heritages and backgrounds who are very proud of that heritage and culture. They want to celebrate that and celebrate many of the significant events that go on. Some of the best moments I have is when I am able to go to different multicultural events, when the German Canadian Club in my riding has Oktoberfest celebrations, and when other organizations have different celebrations.

That is what multiculturalism is really about. The people can bring the finest traditions of their heritage to this country. They can form clubs. They can say they are German Canadian. There is nothing wrong in being a hyphenated Canadian, although some people want to criticize that. They can bring those heritages, those cultures, those traditions and celebrate them in a fabulous manner and be very proud of that.

Some of my other colleagues want to speak to this, but I want again to compliment the member for Grey for bringing this bill forward. It is great day for all of us who are of Scottish heritage. I am sure it will receive a great deal of support.

One final point: There is a big movement in Scotland right now to try to restore the Scottish language. I understand there is some difficulty in how that is coming along, but I certainly hope that maybe some day I will be able to learn a little more about the traditional Scottish language and maybe even say a few words in this House in Scottish.

Mrs Sullivan: I too want to congratulate the member for Grey for his initiative in bringing forward the resolution relating to Tartan Day. I am one of those people who has trouble identifying a nationality. My family has been in Canada for some eight or nine generations, but family lore traces our history to the house of Kelso, which was a Tironensian community which settled in Scotland from Tiron, Picardy, in the Middle Ages. My tartan is Buchanan, actually, but I am not wearing it today. In fact, I am not even wearing a tartan. It is a plaid that is made up. I apologize for that.

But I also want to congratulate the member for inviting the pipe bands from Hanover and from Mount Forest, and the Shelagh Milne dancers who have received international acclaim for the work they have done. When I was a youngster I was a highland dancer and I am now qualified to teach highland dancing. I know the work, effort and the discipline that goes into the work they do as dancers. We all appreciate that.

Mr Harnick: We will be asking for a demonstration shortly.

Mrs Sullivan: I think we are going to see a demonstration, probably after this session is over. Whether it is the Highland fling, skean-dhu, strathspey or the sword dance that is going to be done, people in this House will appreciate the legacy that is brought forward through the dance. I think the appreciation we all have tells a lot about Ontario, because the Scottish legacy is deep in our province. Our towns, families, churches, the names of our children, the livestock we breed, the food we eat, the liquid we drink, the expressions we use and the traditions we share bear a great dependence on the Scottish settlers.

On January 25, as members know, some mean memories every year, in virtually every town hall across the province, try to recall the poetry of Robbie Burns in accents that the poet would never have heard or even dreamt about. No fair is complete without its pipe band, and the swirl of the kilt in the dance competitions at Fergus and elsewhere are very much a part of our life and our heritage.

As I look around the Legislature I could look at almost any member in describing their ridings and think of a name of one or many communities that bear the tradition of Scottish settlers. There is Campbellville near my own area, Dumfries in Brant, Dufferin, Perth, Lanark, Renfrew, Fort William in the north, Glen Eden, Tweed, Dundas, Picton, Northumberland, Caledon, Angus, Fergus, Guelph, Bruce, Lennox, Glengarry, and hundreds of other names. I just thought in the few minutes I had I would put some of them down.

The livestock we see in those counties and in those towns also has a strong basis in Scotland: Ayrshires, Aberdeen Angus, Galloways, Clydesdale horses, the Blackface and Cheviot sheep and Columbians. Now we are even sending breeding stock back to Scotland because the people who have descended either from the Scottish or who have entered into the agricultural industry involving those breeds have improved upon them and made their own place.

When I was growing up my father always had a hard luck story to tell that spoke of discipline and the necessity for responsibility. As I recall, any of the Scottish biographies I have read all begin with the story of a poor young man who is trudging his way to school with a sack of oatmeal across his back. Does that sound familiar? I think it does. One of the things those Scottish stories tell us is about the poverty that many of our early settlers faced, the careful husbandry of meagre resources in a rigorous climate. Those factors have shaped the Scots character at home and in the traditions they have brought to a new world.

They speak of achievement over adversity, and that is a particular claim in the Scots tradition. With a name like Sullivan, I can hardly leave the Irish out of this debate, but I will bring it in in a peculiar way: It is said that St Patrick indeed received his first Christian upbringing in Strathclyde and then took that learning with him to Ireland where he became the apostle. But surely it is the Presbyterian doctrine which the Scottish people brought with them with its emphasis on man's direct responsibility to God and on self-reliance that has shaped much of our own Ontario history, the development of our towns, the governance we share and much of our community code.

The independent spirit of the Scots is also carried all through the generations, from the early settlers to the demanding debates of today. The stubborn views of the Scots are certainly still seen as we enter legislative debate in this place.

There is something else that is interesting about Scottish history. From its early days, Scotland was a melting pot of the Celts, the Picts, the Angles, the Britons and of the Scots themselves, with little in common but their geography, their newly adopted religion and a fear of invaders. The Scots have always been a feisty people. Lowlanders and Highlanders have had continuing rivalries over the years -- and wars. The music of the bagpipes and the war dances, the sword dances and so on, tell of the spirit of that rivalry between the Lowland and the Highland people.

Less than 200 years ago, men from the central Lowlands in Scotland who had to visit the Highlands on business affairs would make out their wills before they crossed the mountains, because their clansmen cared little for the Lowland chiefs.

One of the other areas of Scottish history that it seems to me speaks a great deal about how Ontario was driven through its history was the Arbroath Declaration of 1320, which said, on independence, "We fight not for glory, nor riches, nor honour, but only for liberty." How we have talked about the values, the loyalty, the self-reliance, the independence, the poetry, the dance, the responsibility and tolerance that Scots people have brought to Ontario, we also, in speaking of those things, talk about the liberty the Scots demanded on their Independence Day in 1320.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): Further debate, the honourable member for Simcoe East. McLean is the name.

Mr McLean: McLean is the name. I am pleased to rise today and to speak on this resolution. It is nice to see so many Scots in the gallery today, and there are a lot of people here who probably wish they were Scots.

A few months ago, when I had a visit from people from Toronto who wanted to make sure everybody knew there was an importance in the Scottish clan, that there should be a Tartan Day, I thought the appropriate place to send them was to the office of the member for Grey. He had a spot coming up and I thought it would be appropriate to have it done this fall before Christmas in his private member's time.

I really am pleased to have the opportunity to rise in support of this resolution. Talking about Tartan Day, there are many people who will realize they have seen this jacket in this Legislature before. This jacket is a Royal Stuart jacket. I have this jacket because my wife some time ago made herself a beautiful pleated skirt of a Royal Stuart material and I liked it so well that I said, "If I bought the material, would you make me a jacket?" So my wife made this jacket, which I am very proud of. My tie is the McLean tartan; it is very close but not quite the same.

When we recognize the multicultural nature of Ontario and the contributions of the Scottish community in Ontario, we feel that April 6 would be an appropriate day of historical significance to the Scottish community as it marks the declaration of Scottish independence in 1320. This House should proclaim April 6 as Tartan Day.

The history of Scotland is long and glorious and dates back to Roman times. The resolution from the member for Grey mentions that April 6 is of historical significance to the Scottish community, as I said, because it marks the declaration of Scottish independence in 1320.

As this resolution points out, the Scottish community has made a number of impressive contributions to the economic, agricultural and cultural wellbeing of Ontario. We all know that between 1791 and 1850 the history of Ontario is one of rapid growth. In 1791 there were probably not more than 20,000 people in the new colony of Upper Canada. The different groups included native people, the Canadians and the Loyalists, both native and non-native.

My family came to Canada in 1832, arrived in Oro township, in the county of Simcoe. I am the fifth generation, and I hope my son will be the sixth and my grandson will be the seventh generation of McLeans in Oro township to be farmers.

By the way, most Scots were Presbyterians. A lot of people do not know that, but my friend the member for Markham, who is a Presbyterian minister, certainly let me know that most of the Scots were Presbyterian.

A lot of our people are from Upper Canada, the Glengarry and Grey county area in the early 1800s; actually, Glengarry goes back to the 1700s. When we look at the whole aspect of multicultural life in this country we must not forget our history, our historical background, and we must look to the future with optimism to make sure we maintain our Scottish heritage.

I would like to conclude my remarks by indicating my very strong support for this resolution for April 6 being proclaimed Tartan Day in the province. I would like to invite all members of the Legislature to attend the Orillia Scottish Festival on July 17 and 18 next year, an annual event that attracts between 8,000 and 10,000 people to the city of Orillia for a parade and a Scottish festival of events including the pipes, drums, competitions and highland dancing.

I commend all those people who have taken the time to come to this Legislature to be part of this historical day on which we are trying to establish April 6 as Tartan Day in the province.

The guests from Mount Forest and Grey, thank you for coming. I thank my colleague for introducing this resolution and, by all means, I want to thank these people who initiated this event today.

Mr Mills: I am also very pleased to rise here today and speak to the member's resolution and tell him that I fully support it. But before we get caught up in the euphoria surrounding this day, perhaps we should look back in history and ask ourselves why the highland people came to Canada. They came here originally because they were driven out of their homes by the land owners who burnt their homes behind them. I do not think we should lose sight of that.

There is no doubt that the Scottish descendants made an enormous contribution to the development of Ontario. The number of Scottish place names in the province is clear evidence of this.

We only have to look at our country's history to see how Canadians of Scottish descent have helped build a great country and province. For example, many of the Fathers of Confederation were Scottish and our first two Prime Ministers, Conservative Sir John A. Macdonald and Liberal Alexander Mackenzie, were both born in Scotland.

At the time of Confederation, Ontario was led by Oliver Mowat, who was also of Scottish descent. As Ontario Premier, Mr Mowat showed traditional Scottish grit in asserting provincial rights. He won numerous Constitution disputes with the federal government and effectively destroyed the idea that provinces would be no more than large municipalities.

The list of Canadian political figures with Scottish links is almost endless. For example, NDP leader Tommy Douglas was a native of Falkirk in Scotland, and John Diefenbaker traced his roots to Scottish immigrants.

We cannot forget the contribution of women in politics; Agnes Macphail, who was the first woman elected to the House of Commons, had Scottish blood.

The contribution of Scots to the development of our province has not been limited to politics. Since Ontario was first settled, Scots have played a crucial role in areas like business. In the early 1870s a Scot named Robert Simpson came to Toronto and shortly after arriving he established the Robert Simpson Co in Markham. Today he is remembered by the chain of retail stores that bore his name.

Some of Ontario's great newspapers, such as the Globe and Mail, had Scottish founders. In 1853, when the Globe became a daily paper, its editor was George Brown, another native of Scotland. For years afterwards, the newspaper became known as the Scotsman's Bible in Toronto and across Ontario.

Another field where Scots have made an enormous contribution to the province of Ontario is in the field of education. Many of the great academic figures in Ontario universities over the years have been of Scottish origin. For example, it is widely acknowledged that Professor Harold Innis, who taught at the University of Toronto, was one of the greatest social scientists this country has ever known.

As members can see, Canadians of Scottish descent have played a vital role in building our province into what it is today. We can learn a lot from the constitutional problems we face today. Although Scottish Canadians cherish their heritage, they have always saved their loyalty for Canada. George Brown of the Globe expressed this sentiment after a trip to Scotland in the 1850s when he said in an editorial, "It is Canada for me."

Once again, in closing -- my colleagues want to speak on this resolution -- I would like to thank the member for Grey for bringing forward his resolution to recognize the contribution of Canadians of Scottish descent to Ontario. I think the idea of having April 6 declared Tartan Day is an excellent one, and I intend to fully support it.

Mr Curling: Let me first commend the member for Grey for bringing this resolution which, of course, I will support. As the resolution states, April 6 will be considered Tartan Day. As we celebrate that, I would like to remind the Scottish people that there are many people today who, if they are Scottish, cannot be recognized because of their name -- some have lost their name through all that kind of process -- and some people who cannot celebrate their culture and be recognized within their culture because of their name.

I will not get into the name of Curling. Members may wonder about the name Curling being so Scottish. First, I want to thank the Scottish people for naming the game of curling in my honour.

I really do not want to start on a completely negative note, but I will point out some discrepancies I see in the Scottish people. They play the bagpipes but I have yet to hear any reggae music being played on the bagpipes and I would like that to be corrected.

As members know, many of the celebrations and competitions held in this province have been well attended. In Fergus they have the strongman competition -- of course, if I participated I would be the winner -- which attracts thousands of people to this wonderful Scottish tradition.

Mr Arnott: It's 40,000 people.

Mr Curling: I gather it is 40,000 people. I have yet to get an invitation. I mention to the members here that my staff awaits that invitation.

We also know of the Glengarry Highland Games in Maxville, and I have an association there. My former staff member, Frances McCormick, enjoyed great success there in the dance competition in which she performed. I would like you all to know that my participation might be quite subtle but it is there.

Members may wonder what my tartan is, what am I wearing today. This is an emerging tartan, as you can see. Gradually the colours will come out and demonstrate my love and support for the Scots.

Scots and Canadians of Scottish descent have played an important role in Canadian politics. My colleagues have named many of the people: Bishop Strachan, John A. Macdonald, Oliver Mowat, William Lyon Mackenzie King and, of course, the emerging Scot, Alvin Curling.

These days, as we speak about multiculturalism, it is often somewhat condescending to many Canadians. In fact, multicultural Canada encompasses all Canadians from all backgrounds. As we recognize and celebrate this day, it highlights the unique and equal contribution of all Canadians in forming what is our national cultural heritage.

Today, in what we call an experiment in multiculturalism -- I do not think it is experimenting in multiculturalism -- many Canadians celebrate their traditions because of cultural heritage. There are some people also who not only celebrate but conduct themselves in a religious tradition. Sometimes we talk about the traditions which are cultural and traditions which are religious.

I say to the Scots, people who have made a tremendous contribution to this country, to recognize those who are also trying to emerge and to make sure that their traditions and religion are recognized. They should use their strength and the demonstration of their survival to assist those who are finding it quite difficult to establish themselves in this culture.

As a legislator, it is a great honour and privilege to point that out to my Scottish friends, who are great friends of mine and are always empathetic towards those causes. Today I stand in the House and commend the honourable member for Grey who sits on committees with me. I realize it is his strong background that has made him such a great individual.

Mr Jackson: It is with great pleasure that I rise today in support of my colleague from Grey and his resolution to designate April 6 as Tartan Day in recognition of Ontario's Scottish community.

At the outset, Mr Speaker, I would like to commend you for wearing your MacDonell of Glengarry tartan tie in the honoured position, in the Speaker's chair. Your riding of S-D-G & East Grenville is very rich with tradition. I know you make your home in Maxville, which is of course a very proud Scottish-named community.

Tartan Day is long overdue for Ontario, given the many and varied contributions the Scottish people have made to our province and our nation's history. In paying tribute to these people, it is a debt to Ontario and Canada that we owe to the Scottish heritage, and we are doing more than simply acknowledging one cultural group of the many that comprise what is the cultural panorama of Ontario today.

We are reminded that Scotland has a cultural heritage both proud and ancient. At this significant time of the year I am reminded of a historical event; when Oliver Cromwell became the Lord Protector he had forbidden the celebration of Christmas. The Scots, true to their nature, made silent protest by moving their Christmas festivities to the new year, thus creating their own unique version of Christmas called Hogmanay. It derived from the French, which was "au gui menay," or "to the mistletoe go." That became the earliest known Christmas and new year's celebration here in our country.

I would like to remind members, for the record, that Scottish settlers in both Upper and Lower Canada built many of our churches and brought with them a unique way of life which today has become an integral part of that which we call Canadian.

Perhaps the most distinguishing part of Scottish culture, however, is the tartan. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr James Kennedy, president of KLM Planning Partners Inc in Toronto, for lending me his family tartan tie today to wear. I appreciate that very much.

Today's tartan represents clan kinship and territorial ancestry. I am reminded that the Royal Stuart tartan is proudly worn by Her Majesty the Queen and that each province in Canada has its own specific tartan design.

Tartan Day is a way of calling to mind that heritage which includes the many celebrations of Scottish culture, festivals such as Robbie Burns Day, the haggis ceremony, Hogmanay, the bagpipes, kilts and, yes, St Andrew's Day.

Burlington, in my riding, was the home of Canada's first famous Scottish-Canadian, Adam Fergusson, who in 1833 arrived here with his family and built a uniquely designed stone house in our community which stands to this day and is owned by my friend Bob Elstone. Adam Fergusson became Canada's first Minister of Agriculture and, while on the senate of the University of Toronto, established Ontario's first agricultural college, which is today the University of Guelph.

Adam Fergusson also promoted an annual agricultural fair which developed into our modern Canadian National Exhibition, one of the longest-standing exhibitions in North America. Adam was strongly opposed to the revolt of 1837. He then moved to the town of Fergus, named after him and his family and the founder of his clan. The town continues to host an annual Scottish Highland dancing festival in honour of Adam to this day.

Personally, I would just like to say that the maiden name of my wife, Elaine, is Cuthbert, which is a family connected to the area immediately in the vicinity of Celtic Lindisfarne.

We believe these are times for Canadians to reflect about their identity. Truly recognizing Tartan Day is something that we as Ontarians and Canadians can do with pride. I commend my colleague the member for Grey for this fine resolution.

Mr White: I rise with great pleasure to speak on my friend's motion and to state that I am in full support of it and wish to see its passage.

I am a descendant of the clan Drummond. This is the Drummond tartan, and my friend the member for Prescott-Russell is sporting a Drummond of Perth tartan which I have lent him. I believe he will be speaking next.

My friend has spoken of the historical issues in regard to Scottish settlement. I would like to say that we have an image of Scots as being dour, frugal, hardworking. They have had to be, because Scots, of course, settled in a country which at the time was hard, demanding and not very giving. Of course, they came from a country that was also hard and demanding, so we can certainly understand why they are frugal and hardworking. We see their descendants as also reflecting those values. We see their descendants as offering blessings to all of us now with our standard of living that is a benefit from their hard work.

Those qualities should be cherished, but the modesty that Scots offer, despite their loud tartans, I think is something which should also be cherished -- that dour attitude.

But April 6, Tartan Day, is an important celebration, a waving of the flag, the flag of the tartans of Scotland. I am pleased to see so many of my colleagues sporting those tartans. I would like to leave for the member for Guelph, whose riding is quite close to Fergus, where the Highland Games are, some few moments to comment on those.

Mr Poirier: My name is not McPoirier; it is Jean Poirier, fourth-generation Franco-Ontarian. But I would like to support the resolution of the member for Grey to have April 6 designated as Tartan Day.

As members know, I come from the riding of Prescott and Russell, next to Glengarry county, an area that is very rich in Scottish history. I am sure my good friend the Acting Speaker, the honourable member for S-D-G & East Grenville, shares with me the pride of having so many friends of Scottish background.

It is the ties that unite groups like the French and the Scots that make Canada what it is all about, and this is what gives us so much of the pride we have in being Canadians. We celebrate Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day and now we will also be able to celebrate April 6. We celebrate the Glengarry Highland Games, you and I, sir, where we have the pleasure of hearing these bagpipes that are common to many of our cultures -- including the French through Brittany -- with pipe players like Allan Stivell from France, who was and is still quite successful with the bagpipe playing.

I want to make sure my friends of Scottish descent understand that the francophone community will be supporting this. We look forward to celebrating with them. I congratulate and thank my honourable friend the member for Durham Centre for lending me the Drummond of Perth tie, as I left my tartan ties at home this morning. I was celebrating a bit too much, I guess, last night. I also thank Ron MacDonell, our mutual friend from Glengarry, for providing the clothes for our friend the member for Grey, which did a great favour to decency this morning.

I support and I congratulate the honourable member for Grey and I wish to indicate to him that I will be voting in favour of his resolution.

Mr J. Wilson: I am very pleased to stand today in support of the resolution which would declare April 6 as Tartan Day, a great celebration in Ontario and one well deserved because of our Scottish heritage, both in Ontario and also in Canada. With a name like Wilson, I am actually half Irish and half Scottish. I am very fond of both heritages. I apologize for not wearing the Wilson tartan today. Someone told me my tie looks like it was obtained at an Irish wake, and that is very possible.

I also commend my colleague the member for Grey for having the courage, because I discussed this matter on an open-line cable show I had last week and a lot of people said that with the removal of the Our Father, with the worries about Christmas concerts now in the schools and with the police officers no longer swearing an oath of allegiance directly to the Queen, "As politicians, you can't go declaring April 6 Tartan Day."

I said, "If there's one thing Mr Bill Murdoch has, it's a great deal of courage." He has come forward to celebrate his heritage and the contribution made by the Scottish people in our country and in our province. I commend the member for Grey for that, and I am very pleased to support him.

I remind the government that this resolution is only the first step. They must now bring forward a bill so we can actually declare April 6 as Tartan Day.

Mr Fletcher: I rise to let the member for Grey know I am supporting his bill. I am wearing my McFletcher tartan. I thank the member for Grey for supplying it. I know we have a multicultural society, and that is one of the major reasons I can support this resolution.

Mr Arnott: I am very pleased to say I am going to support the member for Grey's resolution today, as would be expected. As the member for Wellington, I am very proud to represent a great number of Scottish people. We have the Fergus Scottish festival in our riding every year. Approximately 40,000 converge on Fergus generally the second weekend in August. In 1992 it will be August 7, 8 and 9. It is a fantastic festival, Mr Speaker. I would not want to get into that debate with you, but you will know it is easily one of the best, if not the best, Scottish festivals in the province each year.

This year the first function is going to be the patrons and sponsors reception. Then we are having the tattoo, which I attended last year and enjoyed very much. The competition day is Saturday. Special events, Scottish sampler, will be on the Sunday, I believe. I would like to take this opportunity to invite all Ontarians to the Fergus Scottish festival.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to thank you very much for lending me this tartan today, since I forgot mine.

In the few brief moments I have, I would like to take the opportunity to speak about my own heritage. The Arnott name is not well known to be Scottish, but in fact it is. We were a very small and insignificant clan, and therefore have no tartan of our own. My great-great-grandfather, Henry Arnott, emigrated to Ontario from Scotland in about 1850. He came from Crieff, Scotland, absolutely penniless, to Wellington county, where he became a householder farmer in West Luther township and worked very hard. I understand he exhibited all the fine characteristics of the Scottish community.

He was, I am sure, very hardworking and very thrifty in his industry. Those sorts of things are what made this province the way it is.

My name is Theodore Calvin Arnott. I was named for John Calvin, the Presbyterian reformer discussed earlier this morning. I am very proud of that fact and proud of my Scottish heritage. I am very proud to speak in support of my friend the member for Grey.

Mr Jordan: It is a real honour and pleasure for me to have the opportunity this morning to speak in support of my colleague's bill establishing April 6 as Tartan Day. I think we all realize this morning that the member for Grey is not only a good member but a real people person. The members saw the people who were out this morning in support of the member for Grey and his bill to establish Tartan Day.

Mr B. Murdoch: I would like to thank all those who spoke in favour of this bill. It certainly is wonderful that everyone here today has spoken in favour of it and I am sure that when it comes to the vote we will get everyone to pass it.

I certainly want to thank the members for allowing me to maybe break some of the rules. I want to thank the New Democratic Party for not making a fuss about that, because I wanted to introduce the people who were here from my riding. One whom I did not introduce -- he is here also -- is the former mayor of Hanover, Scotty Duncan. He promotes a Scottish tradition wherever he goes. He is sitting up in the gallery. I also have many other people from the Beaver Valley area who are here today supporting.

We also have one of our pipe bands from the Beaver Valley that could not make it today, but some of the people who have played in it and have performed with it are here. Also, I have two pipe bands from Owen Sound that could not make it, but some of their members are here also in the gallery to watch this happening.

Grey county is well represented with Scottish heritage. That is what this bill is all about. We want to recognize our Scottish heritage. Hopefully after today, after this resolution has been passed, the government will bring a bill forward and make April 6 Tartan Day so we can celebrate that each year.

Another reason April 6 was picked -- I do not think anyone mentioned it -- is that in 1320 Scotland declared independence from England. That is why April 6 is a special day for the Scottish people.

With that, I want to thank everyone again and thank everyone who came down. I see the people are coming back now. It takes a while for some of them to get through the metal detectors. This is why we had a problem. They did want to take all the metal off them. Then they would be standing here as I would be standing if I did not have my kilt on.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): The time provided for private members' public business has now expired.

GOVERNMENT CHEQUE CASHING ACT, 1991 / LOI DE 1991 SUR L'ENCAISSEMENT DE CHEQUES DU GOUVERNEMENT

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): Mr Morin has moved second reading of Bill 154.

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion the ayes haves it.

Motion agreed to.

Bill ordered for standing committee on finance and economic affairs.

TARTAN DAY

The House divided on Mr B. Murdoch's motion, which was agreed to on the following vote:

Ayes -- 57

Abel, Arnott, Brown, Callahan, Caplan, Carr, Carter, Conway, Cooper, Cousens, Cunningham, Curling, Dadamo, Drainville, Eves, Fletcher, Frankford, Grandmaître, Haeck, Hansen, Harnick, Harrington, Harris, Hayes, Hope, Huget, Jackson, Jordan, Klopp, Lessard, MacKinnon, Mammoliti, Marland, Martin, McLean, Mills, Morin, Morrow, Murdoch, B., Murdock, S., O'Connor, Owens, Phillips, G., Poirier, Poole, Runciman, Sterling, Stockwell, Sullivan, Sutherland, Waters, Wessenger, White, Wilson, G., Wilson, J., Winninger, Wiseman.

Nays -- 0

Mr B. Murdoch: On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: I would just like to thank everyone for voting this way and say that the pipes will be playing at 12:45 on the steps just outside. I would like everyone to come.

Mr Curling: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The member was not clear as to what type of music will be played by the bagpipes. I would like to know if reggae will be played this time.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Villeneuve): These are not valid points of order, but they are very informative.

The House recessed at 1217.

AFTERNOON SITTING

The House resumed at 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

DRUG BENEFITS

Mrs Sullivan: Last March, Sandoz Canada received approval from the federal government's health protection branch for a new drug called Clozaril, used in the management of symptoms of treatment-resistant schizophrenia. It is intended for use for patients who fail to respond adequately to standard drug treatment or for patients who have developed intolerable side-effects on other drug treatments.

When the drug was approved in the United States close to two years ago, it was classified as a breakthrough product by the Food and Drug Administration there. Clozaril has been available for several years in Canada under the emergency drug release program. In Ontario, some 90 patients have benefited from the use of the drug.

However, last August the Minister of Health issued a directive that no new patients can benefit from the use of this breakthrough chemical therapy because no funding would be provided. This action was taken despite recorded documentation that Clozaril can help a large number of seriously ill schizophrenic patients leave hospital and begin to lead productive lives: 30% to 40% of refractory schizophrenic patients can be helped with this drug.

Ontario is the only province that is refusing access to Clozaril in this way. That the minister is holding up its use is an intolerable affront to individual patient rights. It is also a serious breach of the minister's responsibility to ensure adequate and full health care services for all Ontarians.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mrs Witmer: At a time when we are all aware of the depressing state of our economy, I rise today to urge the government to focus on job creation. The layoffs announced yesterday by General Motors underscore the fact that the job of every Ontario worker is at risk and that the economic forecast continues to be gloomy. Therefore I urge and implore this government to concentrate on creating an economic environment which will not only help maintain the jobs we have but also attract new investment and jobs to our province, instead of proceeding with the controversial labour reforms that will only hurt and cripple our fragile economic recovery.

I urge the government to increase research and development expenditures, to improve our training and retraining programs, to provide assistance to businesses that are struggling to maintain jobs for their workers and to help Ontario's industry adjust to new technologies, instead of driving away business and investment with a one-sided approach to amending our labour legislation.

Today I stand in this House and urge this government to make it a priority to provide the people of this province with the tools to compete globally so that the much-needed jobs become available for those who are so desperately seeking them.

BICENTENNIAL CELEBRATION

Mr Hansen: I rise today to inform the House of a very special occasion. On December 26, Boxing Day, Ontario will be 200 years old. On December 26, 1791, the Constitutional Act was officially put into effect, dividing Canada into Upper and Lower Canada. The date is often forgotten because we traditionally consider September 1792 as Ontario's birthday because that is when the first Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada met.

Celebrations are already being planned for the 200th anniversary of the province's first Legislative Assembly, because this has been known as Ontario's birthday. This year on Boxing Day I will be taking a moment to remember Ontario's past, because it is a very special occasion. I am asking all members of the House and their constituents to take time on December 26 to make a toast to Ontario's 200th birthday.

I would also like to take this opportunity to wish a Merry Christmas and a safe and happy new year to all my fellow members and their families.

FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP

Mr Henderson: As the 1991 Argonaut Grey Cup victory recedes, I know all members will want to know of the other and no less significant Metro Football Championship won this year in a surprise victory by the Richview Collegiate Saints at the SkyDome on Wednesday, November 27.

Their opponents entered the contest unbeaten and heavily favoured. Richview Saints entered the SkyDome as underdogs and emerged as champions. Richview's unexpected passing attack helped them build up a commanding 14-0 lead after 10 minutes of play.

This game was exciting football. Richview embarked on a touchdown run after the opening kickoff, repeated a touchdown march after the subsequent kickoff and mounted a fine ground and pass attack taking advantage of key interceptions.

Congratulations to the Richview Saints and to all their supporters. I salute especially Richview's principal, Bruce Thorburn, coach Roger Reynolds, quarterback Paul Martin, every member of the team and the entire Richview student body who supported these fine athletes.

As we applaud this second Metro Football Championship I want only to note that the champions are represented in this assembly by a Liberal and their defeated opponents come from a riding that made some other choice, which goes to show, it seems to be, that winners know how to pick winners.

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

Mrs Cunningham: I have a Christmas greeting for the Premier from the student council at the University of Western Ontario.

It was one day in December

when Western U was annoyed,

There would be no money coming

no money from Floyd,

Some students were broke

no money in their fist,

With vain hopes that their OSAP grants

still would exist.

University classes packed,

filled to the gills,

Students clinging for life

from the cold window-sills,

The prof with her microphone

and me far in the back,

I couldn't hear a damned thing

so I settled in for a nap.

When over the campus

there arose such a clatter,

I squeezed out from my desk

to see what was the matter,

In a shiny black limo

but who would I see,

A figure in cashmere;

I shouted with glee.

Wearing glasses and tie,

Hey, I'm not a knob,

I knew right away

that it was old Premier Bob.

Close in behind

in two dozens carts I bet,

Came rolling along

the Premier's whole cabinet.

Much quicker than tree frogs

his ministers came,

And he heckled and shouted

and he called them by name.

"Now Floyd, now Frances

now Shelley and Richard,

"On Marion, on Tony

On Elmer and Howard,

"To the top of Thames Hall

to the top of the hill,

"We'll help good old Western

it will be such a thrill."

From out of his car

fell a dozen large sacks,

And the jolly old Premier,

pulled cash from those packs.

Now there's funding for classrooms

and for new profs too,

For safety on campus

it's too good to be true.

Help for pay equity

and for new books as well,

And into super classes,

I started to yell

When all of a sudden

I started to shake,

The laughter around me

had caused me to wake,

I should have known better;

That was only a dream.

It was silly to think

we'd be helped by this Preem.

He sits at Queen's Park knowing

he should give more,

But if he doesn't help soon

we'll have to show him the door,

So Premier Bob Rae

here's a message for you:

This Christmas don't forget

to give to old Western U.

UNITED WAY CAMPAIGN

Mr G. Wilson: I rise to congratulate the people of the Kingston area for not just meeting the target for the United Way drive this year but surpassing it. The figures are indeed impressive. The target was $1,475,000 and the amount donated by the end of the campaign was over $1.5 million. More is expected.

Of course, this result is especially pleasing at a time of such great need for the services of the 41 agencies in the communities of Kingston and Frontenac, Lennox and Addington counties. To have such success during tough times highlights the generosity of area residents.

One form of that generosity is the amount of time donated by the 36-member campaign cabinet and the more than 4,000 volunteers. The size of this team and its effectiveness are in part a testament to the past campaigns in our area that have not only raised large amounts of money but sharpened the skills of canvassers.

In commending everyone for the hard work and generosity, I would like to mention in particular the cabinet and its dynamic chairperson, Katherine Manley, most of whose waking moments this fall, and too many of the sleeping ones, were directed to this cause. Also tireless in their efforts in the campaign were executive director Peter Lea, campaign director Eyre Bien and labour staff representative Oliver Doyle.

I had the pleasure of attending an early morning meeting of the cabinet towards the end of the drive. Even though reaching the goal was in doubt, the atmosphere crackled with enthusiasm and confidence. It was, I believe, representative of a campaign that shows what good organization and goodwill can achieve in the face of daunting odds, and it certainly has led to a pleasing Christmas for the people in our area.

SERVICES FOR THE DISABLED

Mrs Fawcett: My statement is directed to the minister responsible for disability issues. I want to bring to her attention the plight of the Ontario Action Awareness Association, for which her government has cut funding, resulting in the end of their activities two weeks ago, on December 6.

Their mandate was to promote awareness and abilities of persons with disabilities and to take action on any issue pertaining to persons with disabilities and their families. The association has travelled across Ontario to spread its message, trying to break down the greatest barrier for persons with disabilities, namely attitude, which is achieved only through education.

The association still has a waiting list of more than 100 areas requesting tours and return visits. The Liberal government funded the association from April 1988 to March 1991. After a long delay in responding to their demand, the government funded them for only six months, which they stretched into nine by closing down June, July and August. It seems the minister does not believe the association's president, Beryl Potter, is advocate enough for persons with disabilities. She has only spent 20 years of her life on this. She has not even received an acknowledgement of her November 14, 1991, letter.

When will the minister start acting as an advocate for persons with disabilities by helping groups like the Ontario Action Awareness Association, instead of using the future advocacy bill as a mouthpiece?

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

Mr Cousens: Today I have the unique pleasure of ripping up an NDP membership card. Mr Joe Seguin of Windsor has sent me his card and authorized me to rip it up on the floor of the House. He says in his letter:

"I am not alone when I say that the provincial government body has fallen well short of not only its goals to improve the standard of living but moreover its promises made to the residents of Ontario during the last election. Honourable members, the fine people of Ontario are not stupid, as you make them out to be, most of us struggling day to day to make ends meet. We pay all taxes due without exception.

"It is time to stop the name-calling and childlike behaviour and act responsibly, with dignity and grace, and deal with the issues rather than taking the position that most grade school children do when they can't get their way. Grow up and stop spending my money like a kid in a candy store.

"I authorize you, Mr Donald Cousens, to tear up my NDP membership card on the floor of the House as a symbol to all government representatives. We the people are completely fed up with the bad policies and lack of responsibility that we have endured for the past 18 months."

I just want to take this special moment because I have never had it before in the House. I now tear up his card. I invite all NDP members to send me their cards and I will destroy them here in the House for them with great pleasure.

MOTORCYCLES

Mr Cooper: On October 24 of this year, I brought in a private member's resolution which asked the government of Ontario to promote the use of motorcycles. Several members opposite found this to be very frivolous.

I received a letter from the Bikers Rights Organization in Ontario, which wrote on behalf of more than 600,000 licensed motorcycle riders in this province. They wrote to tell me about the May program.

"In 1988, the Bikers Rights Organization, with co-operation from the other motorcycling groups in the province, began a public awareness program for the month of May. Locally, the program has received great response from the town councils that have been asked to proclaim May as Motorcycle Safety and Awareness Month. Through mall displays and rides such as the Bikers Rights Organization provincial awareness ride from London to St Thomas -- over 500 people joined this run last year -- the public is reminded that motorcycles are back on the road and that they have a right to the same privileges as the car driver.

"The Look Twice Save a Life campaign is undoubtedly responsible in part for the reduction of motorcycle deaths since 1988. With such groups...across the province, this month-long campaign is proving to not only reduce accidents but also remove some of the misconceptions about bikers.

"A perfect example of the stereotyping that has caused discrimination towards the motorcycling public was made evident by the member for Simcoe West, Mr Jim Wilson. The referral to gangs invading someone's community and terrorizing the public wellbeing is beyond belief in this day and age. Indeed, the people of Fenelon Falls would be very surprised by this concept, when 10,000 bikers from every walk of life invaded the township during the annual Ride for Sight last June. In fact, the only problem reported by the police was from two local residents who attempted to drive after consuming too much alcohol.

During a recession, the cash flow generated by 10,000 tourists was welcomed by the small community."

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

The Speaker: Before continuing with our routine proceedings, I would invite members of the House to join me in thanking our pages for the extremely fine work they have done on our behalf over the past four weeks. I know I speak on behalf of all the members when I say we are extremely proud of these young people and their contribution to our assembly. On your behalf, I wish them a very merry Christmas and a very happy new year, and hope they enjoy their holidays.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

NON-PROFIT HOUSING / LOGEMENTS A BUT NON LUCRATIF

Hon Ms Gigantes: It is with great pleasure that I report to the House on significant achievements in the production of non-profit and co-operative housing and the generation of tens of thousands of construction jobs across Ontario.

With the hard work and dedication of Ministry of Housing staff, three provincial non-profit housing programs -- Homes Now, Project 3000 and Project 3600 -- will have reached full delivery by the end of this year. These programs were designed to address the housing needs of low-income families, seniors and people with special needs.

Comme le savent les députés, la récession et la dévastation économique qu'elle a provoquée en Ontario ont eu de graves conséquences sur le marché du logement en Ontario. Notre gouvernement a profité de la réduction des prix des terrains et des coûts de construction pour produire plus de logements abordables et maintenir des emplois indispensables dans le domaine de la construction partout en Ontario.

In 1988 the previous government had begun an ambitious non-profit housing program, namely, the 30,000 units of Homes Now. When we became government, only 3,200 of the Homes Now units had actually received funding commitments.

We addressed this problem last spring. The approvals process was streamlined under my predecessor, the member for Windsor-Riverside, and 5,000 units were identified as suitable for rapid turnaround and awarded what we called "quick start" allocations under the Homes Now program. These and other efforts by Ministry of Housing staff and the non-profit and co-operative sector were enormously successful.

Today I am pleased to report that we have more than achieved our targets. Funds have been committed to sponsoring organizations for all the 30,000 units of Homes Now. Capitalizing on the current housing market conditions, our government will fund an additional 1,800 homes within the original budget amount. This means that by December 31, 1991, a total of 38,400 homes will be committed from the three programs.

In addition to these programs, our government announced the Ontario non-profit housing programs known as P10,000 -- they have wonderful titles for these programs -- in this year's budget. The first 3,500 units of P10,000 were allocated this fall, and it is our intention to allocate the remaining 6,500 units before the end of next spring.

In the one-year period between August 1991 and August 1992, we estimate that over 25,000 homes from all existing programs have come or will come under construction, and it is estimated that we will generate over 27,000 jobs in 1992. I repeat: over 25,000 homes and 27,000 jobs -- jobs for electricians, plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers and all those who work in related industries throughout Ontario. In fact, the construction of non-profit and co-operative housing accounts for more than one quarter of the total number of housing starts in the province of Ontario.

In our determination to help people during the recession, we will continue to work to ensure that more and more people have adequate, affordable shelter and we will continue to work to support workers and companies in the residential construction industry.

I am certainly glad to have been part of this effort. I would like to thank my predecessor within this government and previous ministers in other governments for the work they contributed to it.

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT

Hon Mr Cooke: Today I am releasing a package of draft legislation that would make the decision-making process at the local level more open and the standards of municipal office clearer and more stringent. The draft legislation I am releasing for public consultation proposes significant reform in the areas of municipal conflict of interest, open meetings and the disposal of municipal lands.

I believe the current Municipal Conflict of Interest Act is unclear and unfair to both politicians and the people they serve. It is high time the legislation was strengthened and clarified.

Earlier this year, a conflict-of-interest consultation committee was asked to look at a broad range of issues, including what constituted an interest, how legislation should be enforced and how the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act could be expanded to include municipal staff. The committee's consultation included 24 public meetings held across the province last spring. The committee's report, released at the end of September, served as an excellent starting point for the legislation I am releasing today.

The new conflict-of-interest rules would require municipal councillors, school board trustees and public utility commissioners to disclose their assets, liabilities and sources of income upon assuming office.

I am pleased to report that the draft legislation responds to some of the comments and concerns I have received since the release of the committee's report.

In one area, the draft legislation will broaden the committee's recommendations on what is to be disclosed. Specifically, the draft legislation proposes that all assets, liabilities and sources of income be disclosed. But in response to some concerns about the impact of this section, we are proposing that the disclosure extend only to the existence of these assets and liabilities, not their value.

The draft legislation also proposes to limit the number of people obliged to disclose their assets, liabilities and sources of income. For example, disclosure would be limited to the member, his or her spouse, minor children and any companies owned by them. This is narrower than the committee's recommendations for the coverage, which included parents, siblings, adult children and children's spouses.

The draft legislation also proposes the establishment of a conflict-of-interest commission which would act on written complaints from the public. This central enforcement body would be created to relieve the electors of the sole responsibility for taking action against a councillor or a board member they believe has broken the rules.

Under the proposed changes, judges would have a wider range of penalties from which to choose once a breach of conflict has been proven.

The acceptance of gifts and benefits would be limited. As well, post-service employment would be restricted, so that for a period of six months councillors or board members would not be able to use their position or influence to gain employment with the council or board on which they served.

This package also includes draft legislation on open meetings. It is guided by the principle that people have the right to attend all municipal meetings. A limited list of exceptions would allow municipalities to discuss in private issues such as security, litigation and negotiations. The legislation would require council to establish meeting procedures in a procedural bylaw.

The third component of this open-government package is draft legislation establishing minimum standards for the sale of surplus municipal land.

Municipal councils have a large degree of autonomy in disposing of surplus property. There are no statutory requirements concerning municipal sales. In recent years, allegations of impropriety have brought into focus the whole process by which municipalities sell land. The draft legislation would require municipalities and local boards to adopt a fair and open process for the sale of land.

Members may recall that similar pieces of legislation on open meetings and disposal of municipal land were introduced more than a year ago but never passed. The legislation was widely circulated and many comments were received and reviewed in the process of drafting this legislation.

This package of draft legislation is being brought forward because of concerns that existing rules do not protect the public interest. Municipalities that already have rules more stringent than those proposed would be able to continue to apply those rules. This package of draft legislation recognizes the differences among municipalities and local boards. It permits municipalities a degree of local discretion in making additional meetings open to the public.

Governments have many increasingly complex decisions to make on behalf of the people who elect them. The public needs to know more about the efforts being made on its behalf by local governments across this province. Governments need to make greater efforts to show how all decisions are made, so that people can understand the difficult ones.

These are important issues and I encourage the public to comment on them before I introduce the final legislation in the spring.

I would like to indicate my appreciation to the previous Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr Sweeney, who worked on the disposal of public lands as well as the legislation on open meetings. I also would like to thank the members of the committee who travelled the province to come up with the report a few months ago. The members of the committee are in the gallery today.

RESPONSES

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Ms Poole: I am pleased to respond to the statement of the Minister of Housing. I welcome the minister's announcement that we are going to be able to fund 1,800 more non-profit homes than originally intended. That is certainly welcome news. Now, with construction costs and the cost of land lowered, is the time to build. I agree with the minister on that.

I hope the minister will also give credit to the previous Liberal government, which provided the groundwork and much of the direction in the area of non-profit housing.

The minister has also stated that this is going to generate tens of thousands of new construction jobs. That is very important, because right now the construction industry is absolutely reeling from both the recession and this government's legislation. When we had Bill 4 hearings, we had people from the unions and the construction industry who estimated that up to 60% of their unemployment was being caused by Bill 4 and the fact that apartment renovation and construction had completely dried up.

I urge the government to look at some of the projects it has already approved and is currently engaged in to check and make sure we are getting full value for our dollar. I do not think we can afford approving renovations for rooming house units at $91,000 per unit. I do not think we can afford to spend $5 million in places like Wawa, which is reeling from the effects of the recession. The people in Wawa need jobs. They do not need 40 units of housing that is going to cost $5 million.

I hope the minister will take a look at some of these issues and take them into account.

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT

Mr Mahoney: I find it interesting that at a time in the history of this government when it is having such difficulty defending some of its own ministers and some of the things they have done -- admitted telling lies and slandering Ontario physicians -- it would then turn around and find it appropriate to tell our municipal leaders how they should behave. It is really quite remarkable.

Instead of worrying about the municipalities, 98% of which already operate under most of these guidelines, 98% of which have open meetings and a full public process for their ratepayers to come in, 98% of which understand the rules under conflicts and obey them -- for a small percentage and issues like Fairbank Park. Instead of dealing with the rot that is setting in in this government, instead of coming clean with the people of this province and admitting they made a mistake and are going to remove that minister, they try to deflect everything and put it into some reannouncement of a reannouncement by the former government.

It clearly shows a complete lack of courage and a lack of understanding of what is important to the people in this province today. They are simply trying to pull the wool over our eyes once more.

What in essence the minister is doing today is reannouncing the review from the spring of 1991. Why does he not give us a bill we can bring into committee and debate and get our teeth into? Instead, we are going to have more consultation, more uncertainty, more confusion and perhaps even more Fairbank Park situations. We are not sure. Now they are simply announcing a review of their review, which was a review of the Liberal legislation that was supported by the Association of Municipalities of Ontario.

Hon Mr Cooke: It's not true.

Mr Mahoney: The minister says it is not true. Of course it is true. That is exactly what it is. AMO has come out and said it is very supportive of the former Liberal government's legislation and would like to see some movement on it. They want to see some rules they can understand and work by which can be universal across this province and not simply leave it to the good municipalities which understand what is going on.

The other thing I suggest is that the second review, which was their review of our bill which died on the order paper, outlined that there would be some reference to municipal staff. I see no reference to municipal staff. I share the comments from Hansard of the Premier when he was the Leader of the Opposition:

"I find it incomprehensible that the government would be talking about a coherent approach to the conflict of interest within a municipality without being able to answer clearly in the affirmative what conflict of interest rules, if any, should apply to municipal staff. It is difficult for me to understand, for example, how somebody who has a role in planning and development would not be clearly covered by conflict of interest rules and guidelines."

That was the current Premier then. It is not in their current draft, as far as we can see in this release. We suggest they are just wasting our time instead of dealing with the real business of this province.

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Mrs Marland: In responding to the Minister of Housing, I would like to place on the record that the Progressive Conservative Party believes it is the responsibility of the provincial government to do everything possible to ensure that Ontarians have adequate and decent housing.

The irony of the statement from the Minister of Housing today is the fact that she is up on her feet announcing how many jobs her announcement is going to provide while she chose to ignore 4,000 people who attended a rally here about a month ago who were complaining about her rent control legislation that put them out of work. These are the same people she is referring to today: the plumbers, electricians, contractors and bricklayers.

All the people she is now giving jobs to today she ignored a month ago and continues to ignore with the passage of Bill 121, which puts all the people who presently own rental accommodation out of business in this province. If this government would manage the economy, of course, it would not need to be in the housing business.

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT

Mr Eves: I want to respond briefly to the Minister of Municipal Affairs' statement. I would like to quote, "Our aim with this open-government package is to make the decision-making process at the local level more open."

That is very interesting, seeing as how the government members were whipped in committee this week to prevent the committee looking into Bill 143, GTA garbage going to the community of Kirkland Lake, whose mayor, Joe Mavrinac, happens to be in the gallery today. I am sure he would be interested to hear about the more open government preaching at the local level, but we who are telling the local government officials what they have to do, do not plan on doing it ourselves. We are closed here at Queen's Park.

Mr B. Murdoch: I would like to speak on this paper the Minister of Municipal Affairs gave us today. I cannot believe he would bring things in like this. He is going to gut the municipal counties and councils in rural Ontario. A lot of people will not even make enough money to do all this red tape he is talking about. I cannot believe it. Then he has the audacity to set up a commission that they are going to have to pay for. I cannot believe this government is again going to download on the municipalities. All the government members seem to be able to do is download all their mistakes on to the municipalities.

Mr Stockwell: A brief comment on the announcement by the Minister of Municipal Affairs: It is literally the same as taking a howitzer to kill a fly. Most municipalities live by conflict-of-interest guidelines and they are well within their bounds. It is very unreasonable, I suggest, to go to all the municipalities and force these kinds of conflict-of-interest guidelines. The member just said there is a significant number of elected officials out there who will not even make as much money as it would cost to operate this commission or the board