May 12,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Hutchings): Good morning everybody. Welcome to the Social

Services Estimates Committee. This morning we will be hearing the Estimates of

the Department of Education.

Just a few items before we get started, if I could. For the benefit of

everybody, I would like for the Committee, if they could introduce themselves.

First of all, my name is Keith Hutchings, MHA for the District of Ferryland.

I Chair the Estimates Committee on Social Services.

If I go to my right, maybe the Committee members could introduce themselves.

MR. YOUNG: Wallace Young, St. Barbe.

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, St. John's North.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, Port au Port.

MR. KEVIN PARSONS: Kevin Parsons, Cape St. Francis.

MR. DEAN: Marshall Dean, The Straits & White Bay North.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much.

Minister, if I could ask your staff to introduce themselves and also remind

them that each time they speak if they could identify themselves before they

speak, just for the benefit of Hansard.

MR. KING: Sure.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of

Education.

MR. KING: Darin King, MHA for Grand Bank, Minister.

MR. PIKE: Darrin Pike, Deputy Minister.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister for Corporate Services.

MR. DALLEY: Derrick Dalley, MHA for The Isles of Notre Dame and

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Education.

MS FUSHELL: Marian Fushell, Assistant Deputy Minister for Primary,

Elementary, Secondary.

MS STAMP: Tracy Stamp, Manager of Budgeting.

MR. REID: Derick Reid, Executive Assistant to Minister King.

MS POWER: Tara Power, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much.

After we call the first head, minister, you will be free to make any comments

if you wish, or we can go right to Committee. Then we will sort of rotate

approximately fifteen minutes each for Committee members in terms of asking

questions. Okay?

So, if we could call the first head.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. - to you, minister.

MR. KING: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to everyone.

I do not have a lot to say other than to welcome everybody. We will certainly

do our best to answer your questions. It is a big budget, big department, so if

there is a drilling down with details that I cannot get here I certainly will

provide it for you later on but I will do my best to take you through the

process.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you, minister.

Mr. Dean.

MR. DEAN: Thank you.

Thank you, minister, and your staff for coming this morning, first of all,

and the opportunity to go through, as you said, a big department, a big budget

and some things that we obviously have interest in and so on.

Starting on page 190, 2.1.01., just to look at Administrative Support for a

moment; on line 01. on Salaries, probably if you could speak to -

CHAIR: Mr. Dean, just one second please, if you could?

MR. DEAN: Sure.

MR. KING: I am sorry about that. I am having a little difficulty hearing.

MR. DEAN: Yes, that is why I (inaudible) it is easier.

MR. KING: Yes, I am sorry about that. I did not mean to interrupt you.

MR. DEAN: On page 190, item 2.1.01. Administrative Support; probably you

could just share some detail around the increase last year. You were a little

over the budget but not much, looking at, I guess, an increase again this year.

So we are adding some bodies, I assume?

MR. KING: We are referring to the salary section?

MR. DEAN: Line 01., sorry, yes.

MR. KING: Yes. The salary

section there is an increase of four

departmental positions. They are actually four teacher payroll clerks. It is an

increase in the budget but it is not an actual increase in bodies. It is a

movement from another

section of the budget where we carried those positions

last year.

MR. DEAN: Okay. The same, I guess, for the benefits the next line, on

line 02., you had $66,000 last year and your estimate for this year is the same,

although the actual, the Revised for the year was almost double of what the

estimate was in the budget.

MR. KING: Yes, the increase over the budgeted last year was for a couple

of Workers' Compensation claims. We are anticipating that they will not be there

this year. So the budget is reflected back to the original.

MR. DEAN: Okay, good.

Just a little further down the same page, item 2.1.02. Assistance to

Educational Agencies; probably if you could share with us a little bit about the

Grants and Subsidies that went out to the different support groups and give us

some detail around who they might have been, if you have that kind of detail,

and the difference from last year's budget again, to this year's.

MR. KING: Yes, sure.

Well, first of all, I will just take you through the three sections. The

increase in the budget was for an announcement we made to further support the

Government Hiring Apprentices Program. That would have been the increase from

the Budget to the Revised. The decrease would be a result of funding that we

brought forward for things like the Skilled Trades High School Program and the

Healthy Students Healthy Schools program initiatives, where there was some

planned reduction in funding when they were brought in over the three-year

period.

An example of some of the groups that have been supported through the Grants

and Subsidies would include funding to the Federation of School Councils; the

membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, our Cultural

Connections Strategy, the T.I. Murphy Centre. We provide some funding support to

school districts for the Encounters with Canada program for students; there is

almost $300,000 for the Licensed Practical Nursing Program; membership in the

Council of Ministers of Education Canada, CMEC; Atlantic Provinces Community

College Consortium; Learning Disabilities Association of Newfoundland and

Labrador; the Canadian Education Association; some further funding for the

healthy schools initiative; and our membership in the Pan-Canadian Assessment

through the Council of Ministers.

MR. DEAN: So why would we go from the $5.5 million, or the $6 million

Revised, down to $3.5 million this year. What would be the change?

MR. KING: The change would reflect expenditures that we would have

incurred over the last couple of years for mainly capital equipment on the

skilled trades side, and on the healthy schools side we put a significant

investment in physical education equipment, treadmills, weight stations,

gymnasium equipment, and those kinds of things. One-time capital costs. The

remaining budget that is there would reflect the schools left to be serviced, if

you will.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: The reduction reflects the fact that most schools in the

Province now would have had the upgrades required.

MR. DEAN: Okay, good.

CHAIR: Excuse me, one second.

Ms Michael, you had -

MS MICHAEL: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to come in and ask: I wonder, minister, could we have that list

for the record? Not so much for the record, for our own records, because we

track this kind of thing.

MR. KING: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Sorry, Marshall.

CHAIR: Mr. Dean.

MR. DEAN: Okay, thank you.

Item 2.2.01.Community Access Program, if you could speak to the

Revenue-Federal and I guess the extras that we received this year over the

budget and we are kind of back to a similar budget for the next year. So if you

could give us some idea, some reasons for that I guess.

MR. KING: 2.2.01., you are referencing the salary portion?

MR. DEAN: No, the federal revenue.

MR. KING: Sorry, the overall revenue?

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: That reflects - some of the 2008-2009 Revenue was actually not

received until the 2009-2010 Budget year. So it is just a case that the federal

government revenue provided to us did not come in before the budget was

finalized.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Over in

section 3.1.04., School Supplies, page 193, under 04.Supplies, if you

could just give us some idea of - I guess we had extra last year, or spent

extra, and this year we have our budget down again. Is something special being

done there as well?

MR. KING: No, that is a result of a fire that we had in Mount Pearl. The

increase in revenue and expenses would be a result of what combination of

expenses was to buy new resources. The revenue would have been an insurance

settlement.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

I would like to just ask a couple of questions. I do not want to take all the

line items from Ms Michael. I will give her a chance to speak to some of them

because I am sure some of them are the same, but some of the pre-budget

consultation that took place with NLTA. I know one of the things that they were

looking for was an increase to family leave for teachers and so on. I do not

believe there is any increase in the budget for that, you can correct me if I am

wrong. Where is that issue, I guess, in terms of being addressed? Is it

something that we can see down the road do you think?

MR. KING: Well, I guess there are two pieces to the issue. One is the

actual budgetary allocation of leave days to the school board. The other would

be a collective bargaining issue around the family leave itself. Right now the

family leave is a may' clause. So teachers can apply and boards may or may not

grant it. It is their discretion. The NLTA position, as I understand it publicly

at least, has been that it should become a shall' clause. Government's position

would be that that is a collective bargaining issue, the same as in any other

numbers of issues they have and we have, and it will be addressed through the

bargaining process. The one with respect to the budget of the substitute teacher

days, we have not decreased the budget. As a matter of fact, there have been

slight increases over the past three or four years in the substitute teacher

budget.

The issue of how the budget is handled is a school board issue. As you are

probably familiar, we provide block funding to school boards, both for teacher

allocations and for the substitute teacher allocations. Then the boards in turn

administer it as they see fit and as best they can. As I understand it, there

has been a surplus in the school board budget over the last number of years;

whether that is because of prudent management or other issues, I really cannot

speak to, it would be a board issue but that is where it will be from our

perspective.

MR. DEAN: Okay. Basically, you expect it to be negotiated at some point

if that is where negotiations take you, I guess, with NLTA?

MR. KING: Yes. The family leave, with all due respect to the NLTA, if we

engage in those kinds of discussions outside of the collective bargaining

process it opens the door for government then to seek changes on other issues.

In fairness to them, I suspect their answer will be: bring it to the table as

part of a package. Our position will be the same. Until we get to the bargaining

table and they present a package, I am certain that will probably be one of the

issues that they will want to try and gain upon. We will have issues on behalf

of the Province that we would like to gain upon. As you are aware of, through

the bargaining process at some point in time we may or may not end up finding a

resolution on that one as we do with other items.

MR. DEAN: Yes, okay. Let me ask you about teacher allocations for the

coming year. Where is that and how many schools are going to be losing units, if

any?

MR. KING: Teacher allocations are out to the districts, first of all.

Probably by way of, I will not say an education but way of background. Perhaps

you are totally familiar with it, I am not sure. Essentially, what happens is

school boards will do a proposal to the department based on their programming

requirements for the school for the coming year. They will factor in the core

programs that are mandated by the Province; they factor in other optional kinds

of programs.

There are some schools in the Province that do very good programs that are

not part of the core but we support and will continue to support; also, of

course, factoring in student enrolment. In some cases, in some parts of the

Province we are seeing an increase in student enrolment which obviously would

factor into their challenges; in other cases we are seeing a decrease. They do

submissions through the school board who in turn come to us and we allocate

back. When we put teachers back to the boards we do it in block. In Eastern's

case it might be 2,500, or 3,000, or 4,000 teachers and then they reallocate

back to their schools.

We have done our allocations for the year to the boards. The boards have done

their allocations to schools. The normal process - and I can speak for my former

life I suppose. The normal process is that boards would be in discussions with

schools now to ensure, to the best of their ability, that the challenges schools

are encountering are being addressed. Sometimes there is fine tuning of the

allocation between now and September for lots of reasons. Sometimes there is

just an oversight in the challenges, sometimes enrolment can increase. I

remember one year while I was with the board, we had an increase of almost

twenty-five students in one school from June to September. We try to support

their ability to respond to that.

That is where the process is now. The net gain of teachers over and above the

previous allocation process will be about eighty. Student enrolment this year,

there is a net loss of twenty-five teachers in the system this year from last

year. The net loss of students would be a ballpark number that I can get for you

if you want it, but it is in the 2,000-plus range.

We are confident that, in the most part, we can address the challenges that

have been identified. Notwithstanding that comment, there are always going to be

issues that will arise, as I just said a few moments ago, but we continue to

work with the boards and they are working with schools, and things are moving

forward. As far as we can see now, for the most part, things are going well and

looking good for September.

MR. DEAN: Okay, good.

Ms Michael, would you like to

MS MICHAEL: Sure. Thank you.

I would just like to come back a little bit to 2.1.02., actually on the

Grants and Subsidies, just to get a bit more information, Minister, with regard

to the skilled trades initiative. So this is the final year of that, is it? You

indicated that is one of the reasons why the money has gone down in the Grants

and Subsidies.

MR. KING: Yes, not the final year of the initiative, it is the final year

of the capital costs.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, okay. That is why was concerned about.

MR. KING: The significant costs, as you would appreciate, that we

incurred would have been the renovation of facilities, and then the provision of

the equipment: the table saws, the band saws, the lathes, the ventilation and

things like that.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: So those were heavy costs, but they were up-front costs. This

would be the final year, hopefully, where all schools would now have received

the renovations and the appropriate equipment. So the budget for that would be

significantly down, and the same, if I am following your train of thought, the

same thing is with the active living, physical education piece.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. KING: The investment in the high price tag items like treadmills and

fitness equipment and weights and so on. So it is not the final year of the

initiative, it is the final year of the up-front capital costs.

MS MICHAEL: The up-front capital costs, right. I may have been

distracted, but I did not get perfectly clear that it was that. So thank you

very much for being patient with me.

MR. KING: You are welcome.

MS MICHAEL: So I will just move on a little bit then to 3.1.01.,

appropriations for regular teachers' salaries. I am just curious as to why -

where it is teacher salaries, and it is pretty easy to determine that - there

was a $2.5 million difference between the Budget and the revision last year.

MR. KING: There were a couple of issues there. One was the decrease in

cost as a result of the devolution of the Innu federal agreement, and the second

one was that we incurred substantially lower severance costs than we had

anticipated from the previous year through retirements.

MS MICHAEL: Is that loss of the federal money that you just referred to

there is no more federal money? I am looking at 01. Revenue Federal now. This

year there is no more federal money coming in?

MR. KING: I am sorry; I missed part of what you said. Are you moving to

the revised budget for this year or is it

MS MICHAEL: No, I have actually skipped without telling you what my skip

was. I went down to the Revenue

section under 10. Grants and Subsidies. This

year there is no federal money. You just made reference to the loss of federal

money, so I clicked into that and said: Is that the reason why we have no

federal money coming in this year?

MR. KING: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: It is that program?

MR. KING: That is right. The revenue we would have received now is going

to go directly to the Innu.

MS MICHAEL: Yes. Thank you very much. Sorry for the skip; my mind does

that sometimes.

MR. KING: That is okay.

MS MICHAEL: Coming over to 3.1.02., which is the School Board Operations

maybe it is the same answer. Under 01. Revenue and 02. Revenue both the

federal and provincial revenue is zero for this year.

MR. KING: Same answer.

MS MICHAEL: Same thing. Okay, great. Thank you.

I think that was asked; I will not repeat anything that has been asked.

3.1.07. School Facilities New Construction. Just because of the amount of

money I think I might know the answer, but just for it to be the on record. The

Budget last year was $6.9 million and under spent by $2.7 million. So my

question is I guess something did not get started that perhaps was going to be

started. It could be the Virginia Park school.

MR. KING: I thought you might go there.

MS MICHAEL: 3.1.07.05., Professional Services, an under spending of $2.7

million.

MR. KING: Yes, you are right. There are a number of projects that we had

projected that just did not move as far along as we had hoped they would. Yours

could be one of them.

MS MICHAEL: It could be one of them and next year I am hoping that line

will not indicate that. I am feeling positive about that one.

MR. KING: We are moving forward on that one for sure.

MS MICHAEL: Yes. Thank you.

Under 06. Purchased Services, it might be related, but there was an under

expenditure last year of $5.5 million. Again, that is probably because of

projects not going ahead.

MR. KING: The same thing, yes. They are both connected.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Under that, last year $300,000 came in from the federal government and $1.8

million from the provincial government, what were those two revenues for?

MR. KING: The $300,000 was revenue from the federal government for the

new francophone school that we did not include in the Estimates the year before.

The $1.8 million was the commitment from Vale Inco for the new school in

Placentia, over and above government's commitment.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Thank you.

3.2.01., Curriculum Development, looking at line 05. Professional Services.

There is a huge drop in that line this year, a drop of $275,000. Can you give us

an explanation of that?

MR. KING: It might be easiest for me to address that by saying to you

that all of the changes for the most

part in that section, other than the base

budget where you will see we came in slightly under and we are projecting a

similar overall budget for next year, all of those changes, there are no

reductions or increases, it is movement around in the category.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. KING: There was money being spent in certain categories that was

better reflected in others, including some salary positions. So what we have

done, as part of our own budget process, is we moved the money around to more

appropriately sit where it ought to sit in the category.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Just an off comment - there must have been some direction because a lot of

the departments are reporting the same thing: reallocation for clearer

reporting.

MR. KING: Yes. Some of it is just a reflection of history.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: Things have sat in a certain spot or you do some new things and

you start it somewhere. Everybody looks at it differently, but from my

perspective, some of the things needed to be sort of fine-tuned so that at least

it sits in the appropriate category.

MS MICHAEL: Right. In that same

section that I will not ask you around -

that is good to get the overall explanation. Under Grants and Subsidies, which

it seems to be new having that money show up under Grants and Subsidies, what

would Grants and Subsidies here be about?

MR. KING: The Grants and Subsidies we are still in 3.2.01., correct?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, still there.

MR. KING: That is still part of our funding for the skilled trades

program, funding supported directly to schools that is reallocated from another

section. It also includes our interprovincial travel program, $20,600 that was

previously housed in another division that more appropriately should be in here

under Program Development. The combined two would give you the $90,600, but it

is not new money again, it is just moving it around.

MS MICHAEL: That interprovincial travel is the money that schools can

apply for, for students going different places in the Province?

MR. KING: Yes, predominantly rural schools who, for the most part, come

to St. John's and they do a cultural trip and they visit government, and those

kinds of things.

MS MICHAEL: Great. Thank you very much.

Let me see if I have any questions up to them - broader questions under

either of those sections. Just because I have passed 3.1.02., a general question

with regard to school buses. There were some things that the Federation of

School Councils recommended because of some incidents that have happened. I am

just wondering: Has there been any action taken to provide emergency first aid

training for drivers and trained bus monitors on some routes? Where are things

with those issues?

MR. KING: We have initiated a number of directions under the school

busing. As you are probably aware, the busing regulations and the governance

piece sits with us. However, predominantly in the Province we have two ways in

which buses operate. One is through contractor busing of which, obviously, the

contractors are responsible for not only the vehicle and providing the service

but also for their driver education. The second alternative, of course, is we

have some what we call board owned busing that are run by the school boards, one

is in Burin and there is another in Gander.

We have, over the last year or so, put a lot of time and effort in working

with the districts around bus driver safety manuals, training in first aid and

other emergency kinds of response measures that may be required should an

accident or some other event of that nature happen.

MS MICHAEL: Are there any subsidies, especially for the majority of them

which are not under school boards, for providing training?

MR. KING: No.

MS MICHAEL: There is not. It is up to the operators?

MR. KING: It is up to the operators. What we do is we will go to public

tender, which is a policy of the Province we have to follow. What we will do in

the tender is we will outline the specifications that we would expect, which

would include the training and competence of drivers. It would include the state

of the vehicle and the standards, the manual standards that they are expected to

follow, which would be the D250 safety standards and any other items that we

would require as part of their providing a service to us. It is then their

responsibility, when they bid, to ensure to us that they can meet those

requirements.

MS MICHAEL: Would those items at this moment include emergency first aid

training for drivers, for example?

MR. KING: The tender package, as I understand it - and if I am wrong I

think somebody will nudge me - would include basically giving them sole

responsibility for employing the drivers, ensuring their drivers are qualified

and trained and able to respond to situations that may arise in driving a bus.

It would also include the actual buses themselves and making sure that they meet

the standards that we require and that government requires being on the road

transporting students.

MS MICHAEL: So when inspections are done and when monitoring is done,

does the department monitor to see if the level of training would cover

emergency first aid, for example?

MR. KING: First of all the Department of Government Services would do the

inspection, the physical piece if you will, the D250 standards.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. KING: Any other interaction with the drivers and contractors

typically is not with us, it is with the school boards. We have resources in the

department to provide support to boards, and we do that. The school boards

themselves are responsible for the operational activities, so they would be the

ones who actually would be engaged with the contractors, the contractors would

deal with the busing department of the school board on those kinds of issues.

I cannot give you a lot of detail beyond that because it is not something

that we are responsible for at the department. If it is of interest to you, I

can certainly attempt to get that information.

MS MICHAEL: Well, I would be interested in getting it to know if the

department communicates with school boards to see if school boards look at this

issue. I think that is what parents would want to know, so I would be interested

in getting some information on it.

MR. KING: Sure. I can give you that because that is a different question.

Yes, we do communicate with school boards. We do have expectations that they

monitor their tenders. We do have very high safety requirements ensuring that

they are communicating with contractors and they are ensuring that not only the

buses but the drivers operating the buses on the roads are well trained and well

equipped to deal with not only handling the machine but dealing with students on

the bus as well.

So yes, the answer to that question is we do that. The level of engagement

boards have with the contractors would be something I would have to speculate

on.

MS MICHAEL: Well, I guess the same question though that I am asking is

the same question with the specifics around emergency first aid training, would

the boards be that specific with the operators to find out if that training is

in place for the drivers.

MR. KING: I would think yes, but I am going to get that information for

you if that is okay.

MS MICHAEL: I would like to know that, yes.

MR. KING: It is a very specific question.

MS MICHAEL: It is.

MR. KING: It would be my understanding that the answer would be yes, but

rather than for the record say yes, if it is okay, I will get that for you.

MS MICHAEL: I do not mind at all. Getting that information would be

great.

MR. KING: Okay.

MS MICHAEL: I will pass it back to Marshall now for a bit, Mr. Chair

(inaudible).

CHAIR: That is fine, yes.

Mr. Dean.

MR. DEAN: Thank you.

We can go back to some line items for a moment when you are ready, minister.

MR. KING: Yes, okay.

MR. DEAN:

Section 3.1.06. no, I am sorry, you already covered that one

I believe, I had my ear piece out for a while. I know Lorraine was asking the

question, I think you might have covered that one.

3.2.01. Curriculum Development, again, the Professional Service line, line

05. The estimate last year was pretty much the revised and this year it has

changed fairly significantly. Is there any reason for that? I guess with the

curriculum development that has been done or what

MR. KING: Yes, the reason for that, as I said a few moments ago - if I

could take a bit of liberty here with you for a second. If you looked at going

from $342,000 to $67,000 and look at the other lines, you will see there are

some significant increases. For example, line 03., $85,000 to $218,000; line 06.

from $96,000 to $121,000. It is a redistribution of the funding that we had

allocated for the skilled trades program in particular to better reflect which

category that the expense ought to be in.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: As I said a few moments ago, the bottom line budget has not

changed significantly in there. It is just a shifting around so that the

expenses that we are incurring are where they ought to be. We had not done a

good job of that up to this point.

MR. DEAN: Okay. It is detailed in a better fashion.

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Down in the next section, 3.2.02. Language Programs, again, under Salaries.

It seems like we were off our target for this year and I guess we are expecting

to be back where we were in terms of our Revised on line 01. We were $657,000,

we came in at $446,000 and we are back to $644,000. Is there something that - a

piece taken out of there?

MR. KING: No, in the first instance we budget for consultant positions,

the $657,000; the decreases is that we received federal funding support for two

positions. When the budget was revised it reflects the actual expenditure. The

projected estimate for next year, again, is based on the assumption we are not

getting those positions. Now, it is likely we will but at the time the document

is produced we have no confirmation.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: The budget needs to reflect the full complement of staff.

MR. DEAN: Okay, yes.

section 3.3.01., Student Support Services, our Professional Fees, line 05.

We spent half of what we budgeted last year and this year we are almost tripling

our budget.

MR. KING: Yes, two pieces to that first of all, the decrease under the

Professional Services was the result of a number of vacant positions. The staff

complement are the ones who would spend that budget, as I am sure you are aware.

So the fact that we had reduced the staff complement meant we expended less of

the budget.

The increase to $350,000 is a result of funding that we have included there

under a reconnecting disengaged and at-risk youth strategy. We are going to do

some research this year to try and determine some of the issues and some of the

answers around why some of our youth are either dropping out of school or

disengaged and disconnected. So the increase there, the actual increase probably

would be from $120,000 to $350,000, skipping the actual $62,000, because that

was an anomaly because of the lack of staff. We have gone from $120,000 to

$350,000, which reflects the cost of that project.

MR. DEAN: Okay. That will be run out of one location, or how will that

work?

MR. KING: Yes, well we will play the lead role, as the Department of

Education. We will have a number of individuals who will be engaged in research

and survey work and things like that. That will take in people across the

Province, but it will actually be co-ordinated through the department.

MR. DEAN: Okay. Any idea of the time frame? Will that be just one year

for it to be done, or will it take

MR. KING: Yes, one year will be my best guess. Beyond that, from my

personal perspective, if you go beyond a year then your data starts to get dated

a little bit.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: So it is budgeted as a one-year item at this point in time.

Hopefully we will have some results in before the next budget so that if there

are action items that we need to look at, we will have information to drive the

budgetary process.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

I know with my involvement in school boards, I had the pleasure of serving on

the school board as chair in Labrador for a few years when the realignment of

boards took place. The North Coast, in particular, was quite a challenge, as you

are quite aware. Will this program hopefully bring some benefit to that? Is that

the idea?

MR. KING: Yes, I think it will. Through the initiative we are going to

try a number of well, besides the research a number of pilot initiatives

targeting certain areas. Your area is one. I have certain pockets in my own

district that are like that as well, and I think they are spread throughout the

Province. The challenge for all of us, not just the department but school boards

as well, is trying to figure out the answer to the age-old question of why are

youth disengaged? What is it that is drawing them away from school or

encouraging them to lose interest? If we had the answers to that, us here in the

room today, we would be doing well.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: It is a couple of things. One is the research, hopefully, which

will engage the disengaged youth, to try and figure out from their perspective

what they are doing. The other is, as I said, built into this there are a couple

of pilot initiatives that we are hoping to try in a couple of parts of the

Province, based on advice and recommendations from people in the field, things

we are going to try and see if it will actually reverse the disengagement.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

A question on Distance Education; obviously, for the most part, not totally,

but for the most part Distance Education is something that students in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador are taking advantage of. One of the issues in, I guess

a lot of rural Newfoundland, I know certainly in my district in particular, is

the access to high-speed Internet, or the lack of access I should say I guess,

and the problems that it can create for those who are trying to take advantage

of this. Where do you see improvements for that happening? I realize that the

high-speed Internet is not your department, I understand that, but it affects

education. It is probably one of the more important issues for us in terms of

either having it or not having it, I guess. How do you see dealing with that, or

where is that as an issue?

MR. KING: First of all, I guess, I will start by saying that there are no

schools in the Province that are on dial-up connectivity any more.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: All of our schools are either on a combination. The majority

are on high-speed Internet connectivity. Those that are not would be on

satellite connectivity, but there are no schools on dial-up any more.

Outside of the piece that you mentioned that is not our responsibility, we

continue to work with partners on that. I had the good fortune not long ago,

before I got elected, to be a part of a great initiative in a couple of parts of

the Province where boards and the department partnered up with EastLink and

brought Internet connectivity improvements to schools. So, we continue to

explore those options in spite of the fact that I guess there are two pieces.

One, obviously, as you said, it is important to schools and therefore we have a

role into it, but secondly, we really do not have a role in terms of

connectivity in rural parts of the Province. We are certainly confident and

pleased with where we are relative to where we could be with Internet

connectivity. The fact that, for example, many communities in the Province are

still on dial-up, no schools are on dial-up. They have significantly higher

speed than that. It is a real plus.

MR. DEAN: I guess from the student perspective, would they because I do

not really know the answer to that but it is something that people ask be more

used to spending their time in the school in terms of the Internet, or would it

be more convenient at home, or is there a combination of that?

MR. KING: I think, in a general sense - I just think about my own

children, they spend lots of time on the computer at home; there is no question

about that.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: Personally, I certainly would support trying to get the

connectivity for homes improved. My own district is as I am sure you probably

experience - there are a lot of communities in my own district that do not have

it, and it is a challenge as an MHA to try and help people when it is out of

your control.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: The actual expectation for the delivery of curriculum through

distance learning, the opportunities that students need and require for that are

all provided on site at the school. There is time provided throughout the school

day to interact with the teacher, interact with their peers through the Distance

Education medium and time provided after school as the students need it.

There is certainly, from my perspective, no reason to believe that we do not

provide enough time in school for students to adequately cover the content of

their courses and have interaction with the instructor through the use of the

higher speed Internet.

MR. DEAN: Yes. How is that affected by weather, especially in Northern

communities, and I guess Labrador in particular probably more so than the rest

on-line - say they are out of school. I think last year there was one time they

were out for a week or something in part of Labrador. How is that affecting the

grading and things for the examinations and so on?

MR. KING: Obviously, if they are out of school a week it has an effect. I

do not think it would be a fair characterization to say that being out of school

for a week affects their distance learning. It affects all their learning.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: So that if they are out of school for a week it is really not a

concern around Distance Education. My concern would be around their entire

education. With the distance learning, like any classroom teaching, if a student

is out for a week teachers will endeavour to make the time up and to help the

student catch up. The same thing would apply through the distance learning.

The only difference between the distance learning, if I could simplify it, I

know there are lot of differences but the significant difference is that they

are doing it through technology. Other than that, the teacher is still there to

communicate with the student to provide, through the technology, face-to-face

instruction. There is opportunity through telephone tutorial services; on-site

tutorial services with the support of other teachers in school. Other than the

way the curriculum component is delivered, my concern around student absenteeism

would be the same for distance or non-distance courses that they need to make

the time up. I certainly have every confidence, based on my experiences in the

system, that teachers, for the most part, do that. They are there to help

students. They adjust their teaching to help those who miss time to catch up and

they provide extra support, whatever is required, to make sure they cover the

outcomes for the course.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will just go back to some line items. 3.3.03.01. Salaries, I notice that

the revision was upward of $100,000 more or less, but in this year it is back

down to, more or less, what the estimate was. What was the $100,000 about?

MR. KING: The increase of $100,000 would reflect an increased need for

tutorial services. Many of the students now who attend - or I should say, who

are on the list for the School for the Deaf are actually, through their own

choosing, attending school sites, such as Gonzaga, and attending regular

classroom. When they do that, we ensure that there is a tutorial service that

goes along with them.

The second item there, the decrease reflects a couple of retirements at the

School for the Deaf that will not be replaced because these students are now

choosing to go into the regular system.

MS MICHAEL: You do not expect the tutorial cost to come up as much, or

because of the retirement of the teachers the tutorial costs are going to be

subsumed under what would have gone to the retired teachers?

MR. KING: Correct.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

I will not have the discussion here with you because it is policy, but I have

indicated at different times I would like to sit down with you. This is one of

the things I would like to talk to you about, is the children who are deaf or

hearing impaired.

MR. KING: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: As I said, I will not do it here but I will continue to look

at when I might be able to get together with you.

MR. KING: Sure, just let me know. We will find the time.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

The next one, 3.4.01. Student Testing and Evaluation, again, line 01. There

was an under expenditure last year of $265,000. Why was that?

MR. KING: That is a delay in the recruitment process of filling a couple

of research positions in the department.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

Then, continuing on under that section, under 06. Purchased Services, last

year there was an over expenditure of $195,000. Could I have an explanation of

that, please?

MR. KING: Yes. The explanation I give you is going to be the same one you

are going to hear next year until we get it fixed.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. We will make a note of that and we will not ask next

year.

MR. KING: I have already given a direction to staff to get this fixed,

but we cannot do it this year. We traditionally go over budget there all the

time. It is the printing of the CRT exam booklets, the public exams and those

kinds of things. As I am told, for the last number of years it has always been

an over expenditure and we have just never taken the opportunity to adjust that

budget to reflect what we spend. So the budget is maintained at $145,000 and we

are likely to spend $300,000 again next year, but in next year's budget I have

directed that we make it reflect the expenditure, because the printing costs are

not going down for the CRTs in 3, 6 and 9. So that is the over expenditure

there.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much.

It is not a lot of money, I am just curious though under line 10. Grants and

Subsidies, what that $20,600 was about, because it is not in this year's

estimate.

MR. KING: That is the one I referenced a couple of moments ago, the

interprovincial travel. We have now moved it.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, that is where it came from. Okay.

MR. KING: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: That was a logical move, it was.

MR. KING: Yes, it was sitting here in Testing and Evaluation. The

Curriculum Division is the one that deals regularly with school day-to-day

operations.

MS MICHAEL: Right, thank you.

3.4.02. Professional Development, Grants and Subsidies; it has gone down

slightly this year, $246,000 down. Where does that money go? Who actually gets

those subsidies? That is the teachers themselves?

MR. KING: The decrease in the Grants and Subsidies there, first of all,

is a result of the ISSP initiative, you will probably recall, from a couple of

years ago.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. KING: We had a three-year plan and some of the changes were relative

to documentation change and printing. They are not capital costs but they are

those kinds of costs that, as we have made the systemic changes, it has reduced

the commitment government has needed to require - the department has needed to

put in there. So the decrease is a result of that.

The overall budget there reflects a combination of things including, besides

the ISSP and a couple of other initiatives, teacher professional development. We

established, for example, priorities throughout the Province with school boards

around leadership development, for example, and numeracy initiatives and

literacy initiatives and those kinds of things. Those are the kind of

professional development activities that will be included there. No, it is not

money directly to teachers.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, right. It is to the school boards for doing the

training.

MR. KING: Yes, and there is a combination there. Some of it would include

choices boards would make on the allocation. Some of it is what we call

provincial priorities that we have developed through the department in

co-operation with the districts. As I said, just a couple of examples would be -

we do leadership development in all districts in the Province. That is a program

where we are trying to train people and entice people, to give them better

skills to become principals and assistant principals in the system.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: So we invest substitute teacher time, we invest physical

resources, we rent space and we bring people together several times throughout

the year. Those are the kinds of activities that would be covered under the

Professional Development.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. That is good to hear, actually, about a couple of the

priorities, especially the leadership development, a bit different from when I

was an administrator many years ago in the system. The department did not set

those kinds of goals at that time for training. I am glad to hear that.

Since you mentioned the ISSP, could you just give us an update on how that is

going?

MR. KING: Yes. As I said a few moments ago on the budget piece of the

ISSP, the decrease was substantially because there were some one-time costs that

we had to incur, but the actual implementation of the recommendations, all of

them that we accepted are being actioned, some are completed, some are in

process. We announced just this past year a number of initiatives. The revised

public examination policy is one you might recall, providing for accommodations

for students.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I do.

MR. KING: We have brought in the referral tracking system that I think

might have been questioned last year at some point in time. That is now in place

throughout the Province. We have seen significant improvements in our investment

in assistive technology for students like the hard of hearing and others who

have impairments to learning. We have done a pilot this past year with thirty

schools on inclusive education and we are adding thirty-five more for September

2010, a pilot focusing on how we can better serve all students within the same

kind of learning environment versus the traditional pulling out of a student

because they have a certain learning disability and, if I could use the word

loosely, perhaps segregating them in a classroom by themselves. We are

continuing to try to progress.

The other thing, I guess, I should add is lots of what we are doing in

special services is above and beyond the ISSP recommendations as well. Sometimes

there is a misconception that all we are focused on is the report. The report

just told us how we can improve certain things that we are doing. We still

continue to do lots of other good things in supporting schools throughout the

Province with itinerant services, for example, for behavioural support for

teachers who have students who are behaviourally challenged, learning disabled,

inclusive education I just mentioned a few minutes ago gifted education. All

sorts of good things are happening outside of the ISSP process.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

You mentioned that you are full speed ahead on the recommendations that you

have accepted. Could you provide to us the information on the recommendations

you did not accept, please?

MR. KING: I do not have it here.

MS MICHAEL: No, I did not think you would have that here, so if we could

receive that.

MR. KING: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

Just some line item stuff actually, I think that probably was all explained

to Mr. Dean. No, I have a couple.

Under 3.4.03., the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation, line item 05.

Professional Services. There was a big revision downwards last year and this

year's budget is more or less in that range under $100,000. Is this a

reallocation issue or what?

MR. KING: Yes, we have done a reallocation there. It has to do with

teachers hired at MUN for CDLI purposes. We reallocated it under Grants and

Subsidies.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so that goes down to Grants and Subsidies?

MR. KING: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, I will not ask about that then.

Spending is down also under Purchased Services. It went down in the revision

and down further in the estimate for this year.

MR. KING: Yes, most of that decrease would be related to decreased

courier costs. As we are getting more equipment in schools, the need for courier

costs for extra equipment is decreasing.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: Our schools are becoming better stocked and therefore less of a

need. Initially, as we were rolling out the distance learning, as you would

understand, between computers and all kinds of other things there was a need on

a regular basis and a lot associated with getting things out there. As more

schools now are on CDLI and they are actually on an annual basis just perhaps

expanding their programming, there is no new need necessarily for new equipment.

So the cost of courier services is what is reflected there, or the decreased I

should say.

MS MICHAEL: Right, makes sense.

Under line 07. Property, Furnishings and Equipment, last year there was a

major over expenditure of $351,000?

MR. KING: Yes, while it is an over expenditure I suppose I would call it

a good news thing. It is an increased cost for Computers for Schools that we had

not anticipated.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. KING: The result of it is that we have more through the Computers for

Schools program, more equipment out into some of our smaller schools.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Thank you very much.

Under 3.4.05., Early Childhood Learning, I am just wondering under line 10.

Grants and Subsidies, where does that money go? If there is a list, I would be

happy to have a list provided after.

MR. KING: Early Childhood, line 10. Grants -

MS MICHAEL: The Grants and Subsidies, $250,000 is a consistent figure

across the board.

MR. KING: I will endeavour to get that for you in a few moments. I do not

have it right here, but I may have it in my binder, if that is okay.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, fine.

Well, could you give us some sense then of your expectations with the work

that is going to be done this year with regard to developing the framework for

early childhood learning?

MR. KING: Sure. Our plan this year - we are on a fairly aggressive

timeline. We have laid out a flow chart of timelines. Our expectation this year

is that we will consult across government and throughout the Province to get

some public input into what people feel our early childhood learning program

ought to look like. We have done a fair piece of research on it, pan-Canadian;

we have a great idea of what is happening across the country, and in other parts

of the world I might add.

My expectation is that within the next ten to twelve months, we are going to

be able to lay out a framework for what the early childhood learning will look

like for us in this Province. Whether, for example, that may mean a model

similar to health care where public health nurses meet with parents and newborns

at six months of age and then from that on there is fairly regular contact. My

sense, for example, is that is where we need to be. The parents need to hear

from trained educators. Not necessarily teachers, it could be early childhood

educators, but parents need more contact at an earlier time, an earlier stage in

the child's life, for lots of reasons. Not all parents are equipped with the

skills and the knowledge they need to know what to do with their children. There

are lots of things they can do starting at birth with a child to acquaint them

to learning and start preparing the brain, whether it is reading to them or lots

of things I am sure you are familiar with.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. KING: So, our intent is that we would come up with a framework that

we would be able to lay out to the Province that will provide enhanced services

to parents.

My thinking is that we need to look at a combination of what I just mentioned

to you as perhaps a formalized but a little less formal, if you follow me on

that, and then a component of providing some regular contact time.

Right now, what we do in this Province is pre-Kindergarten, as I am sure you

are all familiar with

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. KING: - which is a program where, at four years of age, they come in

for a small number of hours per year to prepare them for Kindergarten.

I would hope that we are going to move to a more formalized program before

they get to four years of age, where parents can come into an early learning

setting and the children can get more exposure, more direct interaction with

other children. The research, I think, is very clear, as most of us would

acknowledge, the earlier in the age that you are able to work with the children

and help in the brain development the better they are going to be prepared for

school by the time they actually reach Kindergarten and Grade 1.

So, it is a formal program that we are going to try to lay out there once we

talk to people throughout the Province and get some feedback on what people

think we ought to be doing in the Province.

MS MICHAEL: While I know - I know you will take it in the right way -

that a formal child care program in not under the Department of Education, I

think that one of the things that I would be looking for, personally, as this

develops is to see an understanding that early childhood learning includes child

care.

I believe, from the knowledge that I have and also research that has been

done in a lot of places, that when you get looking at the three-year-old or the

two-year-old what you are talking about is not going to happen with an awful lot

of parents. One, because they are working outside of the home or because they do

not have the abilities themselves, even if they are at home, to do what needs to

be done. Having a formal child care program deals with that need for the

children before they are dealing with the educational system - I personally

believe it all should be under the Department of Education. Maybe I will make a

presentation in the context of the consultations that are going on.

MR. KING: If I might -

MS MICHAEL: Yes, sure.

MR. KING: - let me just say that, not to get into the child care piece,

but to say to you that the intent of the work we are doing is that this will be

universal and accessible for everybody.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: The challenge, as part of the process we are going through now,

is what that will look like, for example, in Lamaline or the Coast of Labrador

versus St. John's. There are lots of logistical things to work out but the

intent is not that we are going to come out with a nice thing that if people

want to try it they can but in certain areas you cannot get it. The intent is

that this will be a universal program that will be provided to all parents and

all children in the Province.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. KING: I just wanted to make sure you understood that piece.

MS MICHAEL: I am glad to hear that. Thank you.

Do you have any personal goals yourself with regard to the program when you

would like to see it up and running, or are you waiting until you go through

this process before you put your own personal goals out there?

MR. KING: I certainly do not want to prejudge the process but from me,

personally, I would like to be in a position in the next budget year to be able

to share with people where we are. I think, personally, I will be very

disappointed if we do not make significant progress and get our consultations

done

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: - and be able to come back here within ten or twelve months and

be able to say to people here is what you have said, here is our research, so

here is how it is going to look. I will be disappointed if we do not make

movement on that.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you. I will be looking forward to it.

I will ask a couple of more then I will turn back to Mr. Dean if he would

like to take over.

Under 4.1.01., Program Analysis and Evaluation - which is for the

administration of the provincial apprenticeship system, et cetera - line 09.

Allowances and Assistance, I am just curious, it is a very small amount of

money, so I am just curious as to where that goes - $25,000.

MR. KING: I am sorry. Am in the right -

MS MICHAEL: 4.1.01.09.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KING: What?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KING: Okay, thank you.

I was going to give you the wrong one; sorry. That is scholarships that we

provide in the school system -

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. KING: - for those moving into post-secondary.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Under line 10. Grants and Subsidies, could we have a breakdown of that money,

please?

MR. KING: Sure. The funding there goes to the following groups:

Aboriginals in apprenticeship, $200,000; women in apprenticeship, $400,000; our

industry co-ordinating committee for the skilled trades task force, $100,000;

distance delivery of apprenticeship, $95,000; and increased apprenticeship

employer supports, $200,000.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

4.1.03., Offshore Training Initiatives, could we have a breakdown of the

Grants and Subsidies there as well, please?

MR. KING: I am just double checking. There is no list available for that.

That is a block of funding that goes to the university and they use it to

attract females.

MS MICHAEL: Great. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, if Mr. Dean wants to take over for the moment, I am happy.

CHAIR: Sure.

Mr. Dean.

MR. DEAN: Thank you.

I will take you back just a little bit in terms of line items, when you are

ready.

MR. KING: Yes, give me the number.

MR. DEAN: 3.4.04. - I know we spoke of

section 3.4.03., but I am just

curious, I do not think that Ms Michael asked about 3.4.04. There is a revenue

piece there from the federal government of $500,000 that looks like it was not

budgeted and we are not expecting it this year or not budgeting it, if we could

MR. KING: It was revenue late arriving similar to when I mentioned

earlier from the federal government for a number of initiatives that we have

been engaged with on a partnership basis.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: It was actually from the previous year. We did not budget for

it initially because we thought we would have it. We did not, so (inaudible)

updated.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Line item 4.1.01.06. Purchased Services. I know we spoke to line 09., I do

not think we spoke to line 06. Our Budget was $287,000, our Revised was $195,000

and next year our Estimate was $434,000.

MR. KING: There are two answers for you there. The first one, the Budget

decrease is a result of lower than projected site visits as part of our

divisional site visits for accreditation purposes.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: The increase would be a result of two things: one, is that we

would hope that those will go back to where we had projected this year; and

secondly, we have had to incur leasing costs for two off-site offices, one in

Corner Brook and one in Grand Falls-Windsor that were previously housed in

government buildings.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: We are now incurring leasing costs, so those are factored into

that increase.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Line item 4.1.04.05. Grants and Subsidies again, just some bouncing around of

numbers, I guess, not significant, but if you could give us some idea as to

where our budget went from $575,000 to $709,000 this year.

MR. KING: Were you referring to line 10. there?

MR. DEAN: Line 10., I am sorry.

MR. KING: First of all you are asking about the first increase and then

the second increase. Am I correct?

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: The budgeted versus the estimated and the revised.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: Okay, in the first instance from the $575,000 to the $666,000

there was a reallocation of funding there to assist our Adult Basic Education

sites throughout the Province; it was a reallocation from another category.

The second from $666,000 to $709,000 is an increase to support year three of

a pan-Canadian innovation project that we are engaged with. It is the third year

of a three-year contract. That is through the Council of Ministers of Education,

Canada.

MR. DEAN: Yes, thank you.

On the subject of Adult Basic Education, there is money in the budget,

obviously, for adult literacy and that is good, but we have had, I know of one

or two calls at least of people who have been trying to get funding for ABE and

cost subsidized programs and things, basically, they not able to get in. I

wonder, do we have an idea currently of how many people are on the waiting list

or whatever, to try and get in an ABE program across the Province, waiting for

subsidies?

MR. KING: To my knowledge, and if you have some names you want some help

with let me know, but to my knowledge there are very few on the waitlist for

ABE.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: That is one of the areas that we have made significant

investment in over the last couple of years. We have expanded sites. As a matter

of fact, it was only this past year we have done a couple of pilot distance

delivery sites off the Avalon Peninsula to make it available. Typically, the

waitlist that I am aware of would be for the trades and other post-secondary.

ABE, traditionally - like I said, if you have some information that you can

share with me it would be great, but traditionally we have not had big waitlists

there. There has usually been ample funding available to support those who

qualify now, of course. We can chat after, if you would like, about specifics,

but

MR. DEAN: Yes. I will get the detail on them now and if it is legit or

whatever then we will chat on it, sure.

MR. KING: Sure, okay.

MR. DEAN: Yes, but I know there have been at least a couple of callers

who expressed concern about not being able to get the funding for their program.

That is all I really know right now, to be honest.

MR. KING: Sure.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

Looking at the Advanced Studies section,

section 4.2.01. MUN Operations;

again, not significant increases but an increase of about $22 million over the

budget from last year and about $16 million from the revised budget from last

year, in line 10. Grants and Subsidies.

MR. KING: The first increase from the Budget to the Revised would reflect

a number of things. We made some investments in the autonomy for Grenfell

College in that budget year that were not projected. We made some investments in

the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation. We assisted MUN with some pension

deficit that they incurred. We put extra funding in the entrance scholarships

that was a challenge that they plus, the other big one was there were salary

increases that were not initially projected for the collective agreement at

Memorial. So that would be the first one.

The increase for this year, from $254 million to $270 million, a big piece of

that will include salary and step increases for the bargaining unit employees at

Memorial. As well, there is funding there, $3 million for Sir Wilfred Grenfell

autonomy. In the budget we announced funding for the clinical psychology program

at Memorial. There is $5 million to continue the tuition freeze that we

announced. There is funding for the Centre for Environmental Education, for

operational funding for them. There is also funding for growing health care

program.

MR. DEAN: Okay, and just below that in

section 4.2.02. Physical Plant and

Equipment, line 10. Grants and Subsidies, it looks like we are making a

significant increase there. Can you give us some detail on that?

MR. KING: 4.2.02?

MR. DEAN: 4.2.02.10., yes.

MR. KING: Your question is from the Revised $29,000,000 up to

$58,000,000?

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: Okay, yes. There are a number of significant initiatives there

that you would probably remember. One is the announcement of the new residences

for MUN and Corner Brook. There is more than $16 million alone in there. There

is close to $9 million for the academic building that we announced for Grenfell

College. There is almost $2 million for lab repairs for Memorial. There is $1.5

million or so for deferred maintenance that was, I think, also announced in the

Budget. As well, there is the transfer of a simulator for the Marine Institute.

The federal government is transferring that to us, as they have done in other

provinces. We will assume ownership and responsibility. There is an investment

that we had to make as a government to the Marine Institute for the transfer and

for continued operational costs.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: We have also made an investment in Northwest River. So when you

add all of those up I think you should get the difference there. As I said,

there are a couple of very big projects there. The residences and the academic

building alone are significant investments.

MR. DEAN: Okay. I guess a similar question to 4.3.02., which is line 10.

Grants and Subsidies, we see a significant shift there in the College of the

North Atlantic from our Revised to our estimate. Can you tell us what is going

to take place there this year?

MR. KING: Yes, the bulk of - the answer is really the same for you. The

reason for the decrease and then the reason for the increase was investment in a

couple of projects. The college in Lab West, the College of the North Atlantic

Campus in Lab West and a couple of projects that we engaged in, in partnership

with the federal government, the Prince Philip Drive renovation and the Seal

Cove Campus. The reason for the decrease is that the funding did not come

through as we had budgeted initially and the reason for the increase now is that

we are projecting that it will come in this year's budget.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

On the same page, 4.4.01.03.Transportation and Communications, is that just

juggling the figures somewhere again? We budgeted $119,000 and we came in at

$55,000 and our budget goes to $113,000.

MR. KING: Remind me, line item 03. did you say?

MR. DEAN: Line item 03. yes, 4.4.01.

MR. KING: Okay. Yes, there are a couple of issues there. First of all,

the budget is very similar to this year because we are anticipating next year

that we will be where we thought we would be this year.

The reason for the decrease was that we had delays in recruitment of client

services positions, therefore a savings on the Transportation and Communications

budget that they would have expended. We also had a director who was off on sick

leave for five months, thereby a vacancy. So the budget that those individuals

would have incurred did not get used.

MR. DEAN: Yes. In the same section, line 10. Grants and Subsidies, we did

not have a budget and we spent $424,000 and we have a budget of $1 million going

forward.

MR. KING: Yes. That reflects a partnership we are into with the federal

government, a Transition Grant Program. We did not budget for it because it was

not projected at the time. The $424,000 is what we would have received last year

and the $1 million is what we are predicting to receive next year.

MR. DEAN: Okay. What program is that again?

MR. KING: It is called a Transition Grant Program. It is a follow-up to

the Millennium Scholarship program. You might recall, the federal government

introduced several years ago more than several years ago now. Several years

ago the government did away with the program but the Transition Grant Program

was brought in to assist students who were part of the Millennium program and

still had time left on their contracts, if you will. So it was a way not to

leave students hanging who were perhaps in the first year of a three-year

commitment of a Millennium Scholarship. It is a federal program that we are

administering, totally funded by them, for those students who are still

remaining on the Millennium program.

MR. DEAN: Okay. So the income would be down a couple of lines from there,

obviously?

MR. KING: Yes.

MR. DEAN: Okay, a couple of general questions, I guess. The report done

by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development showed the

literacy rate of a fifteen-year-old; basically, they determined that has direct

determinations for their future health and their involvement with the justice

system and so on. We scored lower than the Canadian average, about 64 per cent

on the - above Level III literacy. The Council of Atlantic Ministers of

Education and Training launched a Literacy Action Plan. Can you tell us how that

strategy will roll out, or is it something that we will see soon?

MR. KING: Yes. First, I will speak in a general context to the issue

itself that you have raised. We are certainly well aware, as a department, of

the impact that literacy rates have on a people's ability to achieve.

Ultimately, in the global thinking, the future of the Province and our ability

to succeed is going to be dependent on our ability to have an educated

population and a literate population.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: The report that we released by Atlantic Ministers was very

broad in nature and it created what we felt were common goals that all of us

could strive to achieve for. Probably, to speak to the issue for the Province

you need to look more specifically at some of the things that we have been

doing, and to tie one back to our previous discussion on the early learning

piece because there is a direct correlation in our interest and want to move

that initiative forward because we know that is going to impact the literacy

rates. I am certain as you are, that that is going to be a long-term project. It

is not going to be a short-term fix.

We have also done a number of other initiatives at the K-12 level, one of

which is to try and enhance the kind of curriculum that we are offering in

schools. We have a number of internal things going on right now looking at the

language arts curriculum that we offer, for example, and not only the curriculum

itself but the manner in which it is delivered. We continue to provide very

focused and targeted professional development for teachers on language arts and

literacy instruction and on the learning styles of students. That continues to

evolve. It really does, because so many students have so many different learning

styles. I guess, I will probably come back to your question in the broader

sense. The intent of the Atlantic Canada plan is we have laid out goals for

ourselves as a Province that is in concert with the other Atlantic Provinces.

As a department, we will have broken those down into more specific strategies

on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador that we would like to

see followed for literacy improvement. The Strategic Adult Literacy Plan, it is

certainly no coincidence that we released that. That is a big initiative that we

partnered with a number of groups and agencies across the Province on. Our

expectation of course is that school districts then as well will take the big

plan, take our plan and then they will develop a strategic plan for specific

school boards on how they can target literacy rates.

MR. DEAN: Okay. There are some good infrastructure improvements on the

go, and that is good to see. I know the tractors are moving across the ground in

St. Anthony again, and that is great.

Can you just give us a list of whatever the projects that are out there now

that are being done?

MR. KING: Our capital projects? .

MR. DEAN: Yes. It is always a good news thing right?

MR. KING: Yes, it is a good news thing indeed. I will just run through

them quickly. We can provide this to you after if you want.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: On the K-12, we have opening soon the new francophone school in

Labrador. We are building a new school in Baie Verte; a new school in

L'Anse-au-Loup; two new schools in Paradise, Paradise one and Paradise two. We

are building a new school in Placentia, which I referenced a few moments ago.

The good news there of course is we, through the community, picked up $1.8

million in partnership money from Vale Inco. The budget that we put in there is

a budget that normally would go with a new school and they have $1.8 million of

enhancements. So, it is great news for the area.

Port Hope Simpson a new school; Port Saunders a new school; Torbay a new

school; Flower's Cove and Canon Richards there a redevelopment. We are doing

extensions and renovations in Wesleyville. Balbo Elementary is going to have an

extension, and there is going to be a redesign of the Clarenville system to go

in partnership with that.

As mentioned in previous conversations with Lorraine, in Virginia Park there

will be a new school and we are full steam ahead on that one. We have extension

and renovations almost complete now in Witless Bay. We have an extension in

Kelligrews, St. Edward's School. St. Peter's Junior High in Mount Pearl is

getting renovations. Beachy Cove Elementary, we are into Phase II of extension

out there because of growth in population.

We have a new school for St. Theresa's Elementary in St. John's. Carbonear,

Davis Elementary is going to be replaced. We are doing extension to Upper

Gullies Elementary because of population growth. Roncalli in Airport Heights is

going to have a major extension announced in the Budget this year. In your own

district of course, a great new K-12 school there.

We have announced a new west end high school for St. John's. We are doing an

extension on St. Paul's in Gander. Again, that is a capacity issue, or a

combination of capacity and the new skilled trades program. New World Island

Academy, as well, capacity and program issue. We are going to do a redevelopment

of Exploits Valley High School in Grand Falls-Windsor. Those are some of the

K-12 initiatives that are ongoing and announced at this point in time.

The College of the North Atlantic, we are doing - of course, as we mentioned

a few moments ago, the Labrador West campus. We are doing significant upgrades,

roofing and ventilation to the campus here behind us on Prince Phillip Drive.

There are upgrades being done as a result of the KIP project we partnered with

the federal government on, Seal Cove campus as well. That is the college piece.

We are doing the new residences for Memorial and for Grenfell in Corner Brook.

They were announced in the Budget; the academic building for Grenfell. We are

investing in lab science safety equipment. No, that is moving away a bit from

infrastructure. Anyway, that kind of gives you a snapshot of some of the

infrastructure projects we are involved with.

MR. DEAN: Yes, good.

Air quality, we have not heard much about that lately in a negative sense,

which is good. It has been a while since we we should all knock on wood I

suppose, I do not know. How are we doing with that? What are the major concerns

that are left out there in terms of air quality that we are trying to manage

ourselves through? I know we have a lot of old facilities, we are getting new

ones, obviously, but there are still a lot of old schools around.

MR. KING: I guess, by way of a general comment, there is never a

guarantee that we are not going to come in here tomorrow and have an air quality

issue. Predominantly, the air quality issues that are being identified in the

last fifteen to eighteen months predominantly, not all, but most - are a

result of us doing maintenance work in schools. We are going in and we are

renovating, and when we renovate we are finding issues. Most of it, when we talk

about mould in schools, is being discovered in wall cavities. There are lots of

instances, and I had them in my previous life, where air quality tests have been

done in facilities and they come back fine; when you take the wall out you find

mould in the cavity. That is because the mould has been sealed.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: So that is where we are finding most of our air quality issues.

I think, generally speaking, between last year and this year we will have an

investment of almost $80 million in projects identified by the school boards as

being high priority for air quality and life safety reasons. That includes a lot

of work around roofs, siding, windows building-envelop projects we call them.

That is where the bulk of air quality issues start. A leaky roof or a leaky

window and water gets in and infiltrates the building.

We feel that we are doing great progress, and we - through the school boards,

of course, because they do the daily operational piece of that, we are getting

through it a piece at a time. As I said, there are still facilities out there

that we have not done work with because there are no issues identified, but you

never know, tomorrow it could be one of those facilities that a window will

break or somebody will break a wall and all of a sudden you become aware of an

issue. We will respond to those. We have a contingency fund for emergencies, but

we are on a very planned track working with school districts to move through a

list of projects that they have identified as not identified as having air

quality problems, but they have identified as potential problems. So, what we

are trying to do now is get in and do maintenance work and perhaps try to avoid

another case where you and I are in the House debating a school closure because

of mould issues.

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: We are doing well there. We have also made investments in the

department. We have hired an industrial hygienist, which is an individual who is

trained and qualified to go out and detect air quality problems, not only to

detect the fact that there is an air quality issue but to detect whether there

might become an issue. That individual is working with school districts to

provide good advice and direction on what needs to be done. Districts then, of

course, come to us, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, and they will identify

projects. To the best of our ability, we are funding them.

As I can recollect at least we do not have any projects or any issues

identified where air quality is an issue that we have not responded to. As I

have said, fortunately, we are benefiting enough that we are also doing things

that I call preventive maintenance. We are going in and fixing windows, roofs

and sidings where to date there has been no problem identified, so hopefully we

can avoid that ever happening.

MR. DEAN: Good.

What about the on-line access or whatever to those reports, the air quality

reports? I think that was one of the things the AG mentioned in his report I

believe, if I am correct, about them being accessible or on the web or whatever?

MR. KING: For me, it is not a priority, to be frank with you. We provide

the reports publicly. Every single air quality report that we do is provided to

the school council. From our perspective, the school council is the body that

duly represents parents and the public. There are teachers on the council. There

is provision for students on the council. There are parents and members of the

public at large. All of the reports that we have are accessible to the group

that we feel they are most important to, and that is the school council.

MR. DEAN: Sure.

MR. KING: Whether or not we will look at it down the road, maybe. I have

not personally costed it out. As I said a few moments ago, if the deputy says to

me for $2 million we can put these reports on-line or we can do another thirty

or forty maintenance projects, my priority would be spend the million or two on

maintenance projects at this point in time.

MR. DEAN: So, the information is out there, I guess, to those who would

be concerned - not necessarily those who would be concerned but those who will

be representing the parents and so on.

MR. KING: Yes.

The advice I would give people - and I did it in my previous life when I was

with the school board - is that if a member of the public or you have a concern

well, if you have a concern you can come to us.

MR. DEAN: Sure.

MR. KING: If a member of the public has a concern for their school, they

just pick up the phone and call the principal or their school council chair and

they will give them a copy. We send copies out the minute we receive reports and

have a chance to analyze them so that we are in a position to ask questions.

They go directly to the schools.

MR. DEAN: Okay. Good.

There is one thing I wanted to ask you, back to the new infrastructure for a

second, that I forgot to ask. It has to do with cafeterias going into schools

and that was one of the recommendations of the NLTA, I believe. The new schools,

is that kind of inclusive in projects or are they kind of in and out depending

MR. KING: Are cafeterias included in new school projects?

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. KING: Yes, they are part of our planning manual.

MR. DEAN: Okay.

MR. KING: Most of the challenges we encounter with cafeterias I think,

anyway two challenges: one is schools that do not have them because they were

not planned for in the past; and secondly, there is a number of instances where

we put them in but they are not big enough and it is not that the cafeteria

was not big enough for the school, it is that the population has grown.

We have adjusted our planning specifications over the last period of time to

reflect that as well as other items, such as the skilled trades we talked about

a few moments ago and the physical education initiatives, active and healthy

lifestyles, to recognize that we need spaces in schools now to house this

equipment and the appropriate facilities. So, our planning manual evolves as our

requirements for school programs evolve, but we are factoring in cafeterias.

MR. DEAN: Good. Thank you.

Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: I just have a couple more questions. One has to do with

student debt actually it is the rate of repayment of student debt. I am just

wondering it may be too early for this. I do have the figures for the last few

years.

I am just wondering, with the dropping of the payment of provincial interest

on student loans, do we see an improvement in the rate of repayment that is

going on. It might be too early to get that.

MR. KING: I think it is probably a little too early because we are not

long into having eliminated the interest on that. I can follow up on that for

you.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: I will check and just see if we have any indication whatsoever.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. I do not know when these figures are put together each

year. The last report we have, of course, is for 2008, which was modified in

October of 2009. So, it could be way too early to get the 2009 figures.

MR. KING: I will check for you.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

It will be interesting to know if we are seeing a change in the rate.

MR. KING: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: Although I notice over those years the rate of payment seems

to be improving. Almost each year there seems to be some improvement going on,

especially in the private colleges which were really bad.

MR. KING: Without being able to quantify it for you, the feedback that we

are getting from the Federation of Students is extremely positive on that

particular initiative.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: What they are telling us is all of the feedback they get from

students is that their debt load is becoming increasingly more manageable and it

is allowing them to make their payments. Those who, perhaps, were challenged

before that.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. KING: So, anecdotally it is very positive, but I will see if I can

get some numbers for you.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Then my last question has to do with 4.4.03., the Student Loans Program. I am

just wondering what the big drop is about. Last year in the Budget it was $29.1

million and went down by $13.9 million. This year it is more or less, not quite

the same, but almost the same as last year's revision. So, what was that big

difference about, that big drop?

MR. KING: That is a good news story actually. We budget there every year

projecting what the interest rates are going to be on corporate loans, the

Student Loan Corporation. That savings is a result of lower interest rates that

we incurred, and we are projecting in this year's budget with $17 million that

the interest rates are going to stay at or about where they are now.

MS MICHAEL: For this year?

MR. KING: Yes, we hope.

MS MICHAEL: That is right. We will see what the Bank of Canada has to say

about that. That is great. That is good news. It might be short lived but while

it is there -

MR. KING: It is good for a year anyway.

MS MICHAEL: That is right.

Thank you very much. They are all my questions.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Are there any more questions from the Committee?

Okay. Thank you.

I will ask the Clerk to call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: 1.2.01 to 4.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.2.01 to 4.5.01 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 4.5.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the total carried?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education

carried without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of Department of Education carried without amendment.

CHAIR: The Committee should have before them the minutes of the Social

Services Committee, Department of Municipal Affairs, Fire and Emergency

Services, for May 11, 2010.

Could I ask for a motion to adopt the minutes?

MR. YOUNG: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Young.

Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister and staff, I would like to thank you this morning for

participating in the Estimates. To the Committee members, I would like to thank

you for your participation.

This concludes the Estimates for the Social Services Committee. I certainly

extend a thank you to the Committee members on their participation. I do believe

that concludes. I will ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. RIDGLEY: So moved.

CHAIR: Mr. Ridgley.

Thank you very much. We are adjourned.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.