June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 431 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, June 21, 1989 2:30 p.m. Date: 89/06/21 [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] PRAYERS MR. SPEAKER: Let us pray. As Canadians and as Albertans we give thanks for the pre­ cious gifts of freedom and peace which we enjoy. As Members of this Legislative Assembly we rededicate our­ selves to the valued traditions of parliamentary democracy as a means of serving both our province and our country. Amen. head: PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following pe­ titions that have been received for private Bills: 1. the petition of the Canadian Union College for the Canadian Union College Amendment Act, 1989, 2. the petition of the General hospital (Grey Nuns) of Ed­ monton for the General Hospital (Grey Nuns) of Edmonton Amendment Act, 1989, 3. the petition of the Canada Olympic Park Development As­ sociation for the Canada Olympic Park Property Tax Ex­ emption Amendment Act, 1989, 4. the petition of Eric John Slatter for the Edmonton Commu­ nity Foundation Amendment Act, 1989, 5. the petition of the Misericordia hospital for the Misericor­ dia Hospital Amendment Act, 1989, 6. the petition of the Calgary Research and Development Authority for the Calgary Research and Development Authority Act, 1989, 7. the petition of the Calgary Foundation for the Calgary Foundation Amendment Act, 1989, 8. the petition of Jamnu Panjwani for the Omprakash Panjwani Adoption Act, 9. the petition of Werner Jensen for the Claudia Elizabeth Be­ cker Adoption Act, 10. the petition of Walter Gibson for the Margaret Kenford Adoption Act, 11. the petition of Alexander Walsh for the Tammy Lynn Proc­ tor Adoption Act, 12. the petition of Jerry Dan Kovacs for the Jerry Dan Kovacs Legal Articles Act, and finally 13. the petition of Sherry Lynn Adam for the Sherry Lynn Adam Adoption Act. head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR.

EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the Private Bills Committee has passed the following resolution: that the committee recommend to the Legislative Assembly that advertising carried out for a private Bill pursuant to Standing Order 86 for the Fourth Ses­ sion of the 21st Legislature be deemed to be good and sufficient advertising for the same private Bill presented to the current ses­ sion. I request the concurrence of the Assembly in this recommendation. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the request by the hon. Member for Banff-Cochrane, those in favour, please say aye. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed, please say no.

Carried. head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. CHUMIR: Mr. Speaker, I stand to give notice of a motion which I'll be presenting under rule 40 after question period, to the effect: Be resolved that smoking not be permitted in the Assembly Chamber. I have here a copy of the notice for your perusal. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the annual re­ port of the Alberta Electric Energy Marketing Agency for the year 1988-89 and the Gas Alberta Operating Fund report on fund operations for the year ended March 31, 1988. MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Public Works, Supply and Services. MR.

KOWALSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table with the Assembly today a report titled Dangerous Goods Spills in the Province of Alberta. MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure to table with the Assembly the 83rd annual report of the Department of Educa­ tion for the year ended March 31, 1988. MR. SPEAKER: Pursuant to the Election Finances and Con­ tributions Disclosure Act I am tabling the report of the Chief Electoral Officer of those candidates who failed to file state­ ments with the Chief Electoral Officer. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: The Member for. . .

I'm just trying to think here. Lacombe. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that you recognized Lacombe, an important place such as that Now, it's a pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the Legislature 39 members from the Clive elemen­ tary school. They are accompanied today by their teacher Brian McClelland and 12 parents. That's an example of the way peo­ ple in Clive think of the family. They're up here with their chil­ dren and traveled all this way, 12 of them, and it's a credit to them that they take interest in the future of their children and do things with them. They are Mr. and Mrs.

Shackleton, Mrs. Pimm, Mrs. Loree Wagner, Mr. and Mrs. Giesbrecht, Mrs. Jeglum, Mr. and Mrs. Ronald, Mr. and Mrs. Gord Wagner, and Mrs. Hill. They're seated in the members' gallery, and I'd ask

432 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 them to rise and receive the traditional welcome of this Legislature. MR. WRIGHT: M. le President, je vous présente des élèves de l'école St. Thomas d'Aquin de ma circonscription d'Edmonton- Strathcona. Du programme d'immersion française de cette école, il y a vingt-trois élèves; avec eux, seize élèves du même programme d'immersion française de Grande Prairie. Avec eux il y a leurs professeurs Nicole Foisy et Denis Lacroix, et des parents, Carol Rutherford, Agnès McDonald et Jean Overland. Ils sont ici à la galerie des membres, M. le President.

Peut-être ils se lèveront pour recevoir notre bon accueil. MR. SHRAKE: Mr. Speaker, I'm really pleased today to be able to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly 38 of the finest students in the province of Alberta. They've come all the way from Father Damien school, which is located in the heart of Calgary-Millican, a very fine school out in that end of town. They're accompanied by one of the teachers, Juanita Broderick, and five of the real good parents who came up to look after them, and that's Mrs. Banville, Mrs. LaBrie, Mrs. Mazur, Miss Lidster, and Mrs. Williamson.

They're seated in the public gallery, and I'd like for them to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Calgary-McKnight. MRS. GAGNON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the Assembly 36 grade 6 students from St. Hubert school, which is located in Calgary- McKnight. They are accompanied by their teacher Lynda Rivé, their principal, Mr. Mark McManus, Mrs. Nancy Murphy, and Mrs. Josie Demchuk. They are seated in the public gallery. I would ask them to stand and receive the usual welcome from this Assembly. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to introduce to you and through you to the Assembly a very special lady and well- known Calgarian, Mrs. Ruth Cooney. Her late husband, Mr. Justice Vincent Cooney, served the Alberta Human Rights Com­ mission from its inception until 1978. Mrs. Cooney is a former trustee and chairperson of the Calgary Catholic school board. She was also national president of a very large women's group in Canada. Please stand, Ruth, and receive the usual welcome from the Assembly. MRS. B. LAING: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the hon.

Member for Calgary-McCall it's my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the Members of the Legislative As­ sembly five students from St. Rupert school. They're accompa­ nied by their teacher Mrs. Ann Dorn. They're seated in the pub­ lic gallery, and I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Culture and Multiculturalism. MR. MAIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to introduce to you and through you to the rest of the members of the Assembly Mr. Gus Ahmad, who is the chairman of the Edmonton council for the advancement of visible minorities.

He is seated in the members' gallery, a fine champion of multiculturalism in this city and this province. I'd like him to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hazardous Materials Management MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, to the minister responsible for Public Safety Services. We've had a rash of hazardous spills in this province this year, some of them, of course, well publicized. But the frightening part about it: this doesn't tell the story, be­ cause there were 104 dangerous spills up to the end of April.

If we continued with that rate, there'd be over 300 in the province, some of them potentially deadly. Yesterday in Edmonton one that occurred at the corner of Wagner Road and 86th Street was right near a city high school. My question is to the minister, because there doesn't seem to be anything done, and we seem to be continuing. Is it going to take a major tragedy before this government does something in terms of hazardous wastes in this province? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, perhaps this would be an op­ portunity to explain what the government has done.

All mem­ bers will recall that it was in February of 1986 that the transpor­ tation of dangerous goods Act was promulgated in the province of Alberta. Since that time there have been mandatory require­ ments in terms of reporting spills and the like. And it was a few minutes ago that I tabled in the Assembly and made public a report titled Dangerous Goods Spills in the Province of Alberta, a report requested by both myself and the Minister of the En­ vironment. There's one conclusion, Mr.

Speaker -- and I appre­ ciate that the Leader of the Opposition may not have yet had an opportunity to read the report -- on page 4 that says that the ac­ tual incident rate in the province of Alberta is dropping. Mr. Speaker, it should also be noted that there are an esti­ mated 14 million tonnes of dangerous goods moving annually in the province of Alberta in roughly some 330,000 truckloads. We have 767 dangerous goods inspectors in our province, and recently Alberta Public Safety Services brought 117 cases to trial, 24 of which are still before the courts, and a further 7 cases are pending.

The report also has a conclusion that effective en­ forcement levels in Alberta are by far the highest in Canada. MR. MARTIN: You know, pound your desks all you like. Three hundred potential spills in this province is a serious mat­ ter, Mr. Speaker. I notice one of the recommendations. He says that, it's recommended that Alberta not act "unilaterally to intro­ duce packaging standards." My question is: why in the world would we not want to do this? I repeat: are we going to wait until there is a tragedy before we do something? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr.

Speaker, one of the approaches that Alberta's always taken is to recognize that Alberta is a part of Canada. When we have truck movements within our province and through our province, those truck movements might emanate from the province of British Columbia or from another province to the eastern part of the province of Alberta and go through the province of Alberta. It is extremely important that when you come to deal with items such as the transportation of dangerous or hazardous goods, there has to be a standardized package across the country.

That's one of the items that Al­ berta's been forceful about, and mat's one of the items that Al­ berta's been dealing with with other provinces in this country to make sure that we do have a standardized system. Now, Mr. Speaker, it should be noted as well that there is a

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 433 motion before the Assembly, Motion 203. And if all members will recall, time ran out the other day for the debate of that mo­ tion. The debate was adjourned by myself, and it would be my intent to get back into that debate and have this matter dis­ cussed. I think it's a matter of prime importance, and I think it's also a matter of concern for the government to be able to hear what the ladies and gentlemen in this Assembly have to say about this whole subject matter. That motion is important.

Secondly, Alberta is very active in putting pressure on other provinces and the federal government, and next week I'll be in the province of Prince Edward Island meeting with my col­ leagues from across the country in this very important area, and it's one matter that I intend to raise. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't care if the minister's go­ ing to talk in the Legislature . . . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question MR. MARTIN: Just hang tough. This is a serious matter, Mr. Speaker. I don't care if you want to talk. My question is to the minis­ ter.

Is he saying that he's just going to sit tight, do nothing, un­ til the feds come in with the standard, thereby leaving Albertans at risk? Is this what he's saying to us in this Assembly today? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposi­ tion has been in the Assembly long enough to know that that's not at all what I've said. That's what the hon. Leader of the Op­ position wants to say.

What I've said very clearly is that the whole subject matter of the transportation of hazardous and dan­ gerous goods in this country is of prime importance, not only to the people of Alberta, but it should be to other jurisdictions in this country. Alberta showed leadership in terms of the Swan Hills plant, in terms of telling everybody in this country how you can dis­ pose of dangerous and hazardous goods. We think it's our duty within this country to make sure that there must be conformity across this country, Mr. Speaker. Otherwise, you'd have ab­ solute, total chaos within the trucking industry.

It would be of no benefit to the men and women who live in this province if we had one standard and the province of British Columbia or the province of Saskatchewan chose to use a standard less than ours. We believe it's incumbent upon the people of Canada to do that, and we intend on showing leadership in this very important area with the federal government and the other provincial jurisdic­ tions in this country to make sure that we have one conforming standard across this country that is effective, effective, effective. Gravel Truckers' Concerns MR. MARTIN: Did he say affected or effective? Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the minister of transportation. I'm sure the minister is well aware that we have a very frustrated group of gravel truckers in this province and, if I may say so, rightfully so. Provincial gravel hauling rates have re­ main unchanged since 1982, despite rising fuel costs, the gov­ ernment's fuel tax, increased licensing fees, and higher costs for financing new equipment and repairs. Frankly, it's becoming impossible to make a living as a gravel trucker.

To make it worse, the Member for Athabasca-Lac La Biche tried to deal with a kickback scam, and the Attorney General was going to throw him in jail for it. Now, my question to the minister of transportation. When will the minister announce an increase in the government's haul rates so that truckers can begin to catch up with the rising costs of doing business? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, what I have indicated to the asso­ ciation over a number of meetings that we have had over the last year and a half is that I would attempt to keep the existing rate -- that's the existing minimum haul rate for gravel truckers for those jobs where the minimum haul rate applies -- in place for at least this year. In the interim, as a result of a number of things that occurred a year ago, there is a study that is being conducted by Coopers & Lybrand that will be presented to us, I believe, sometime in September, which covers a number of aspects.

I want to ensure that I have the best information at that particular point in time, recognizing, Mr. Speaker, that the gravel trucking association in Saskatchewan just negotiated a lowering of the rates in Saskatchewan. Now, that doesn't mean we have to lower the rates, but at this particular point in time we've got two choices: keep them as they are or possibly go to the open tender system, where they bid and then it's fair to everybody. MR. MARTIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that that's what the gravel truckers want to hear: a veiled threat that they may even lower the rates and put more of them out of business. Well, my question to the Treasurer, then, to come at it from a different angle. We've been talking about fighting for farmers and gravel truckers, dealing with the 5 cents a litre fuel tax. The government's gone part way by giving a nickel a litre back to farmers. How about doing the same thing for people who make their living by energy, specifically the gravel truckers, and bringing that in in the next budget for them, Mr. Speaker? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, it's a very convenient ploy by the Member for Edmonton-Norwood to pick out a particular sector and say, "We are the people who represent you, and we're going to do all we can to argue your case in the Legisla­ ture." But you must remember that with respect to the gravel truck industry my colleague is attempting to deal with it He has set forward for you an outline as to how he's going to look at the rate system, he's met with this group time and time again, and he has given a lot of his effort to ensure that some kind of arrangement can be effected. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it should be noted that the tax the mem­ ber speaks to, of course, is deductible for income tax purposes, and the impact of this tax probably isn't that significant. I know it does increase the marginal costs, but there is some tax relief with respect to that tax there. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, it should be noted that because of the economic activity in this province, because of the new invest­ ment that's taking place in this province, because of the demand on the service sector in this province as a result of economic growth, higher levels of employment and amazing levels of in­ vestment, the opportunity for the service sector has never been more powerful than it is right now in this province. MR. FOX: Maybe they can get a job hauling BS. MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition rather than Vegreville, perhaps. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the gravel truckers will

434 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 love the huffing and puffing, but they're not getting anything from this government. Let me try one other tack, then, to the minister of transporta­ tion. We seem to have very tough regulations for gravel and almost nothing for hazardous waste. My question to the minis- ten would he consider, then, taking some flexibility? Because a trucker can start off with a legal load and have it shift through no fault of his own and be in contravention of the law. Would the minister look into some flexibility in terms of this law at least? MR. ADAIR: Well, Mr.

Speaker, two things that I should point out are in relation to the question about trucking minimum haul rates and hazardous wastes. If you had been listening to the hon. minister say what they had done to this particular point in time, you wouldn't have said those things. I think I should also point out, too, that there was a mention in the opening question about the investigation. It was con­ ducted a year ago by the Attorney General, and there were no criminal actions found. There was none, and I'll just . . . MR. TAYLOR: Has he ever found anything? MR.

ADAIR: You're speaking, sir, about the RCMP, who actu­ ally conducted that particular one, Mr. Speaker. The gravel truckers that I met with at noon today raised six issues, and I suggested to them that they put them in writing and explain exactly what the issue is behind them. There was an increase in the minimum haul rate, which the hon. member has just mentioned. There was the ability to see whether there was some way of putting the minimum haul rate on what's called contractor supply jobs.

There was the limit of the number of full-time truckers for winter works; in other words, there should be an exclusive group. I said to them at that particular time that many, many of the people that got into the gravel truck business started as farmers, had a gravel box or had log booms so they could haul one or the other in the wintertime, and that's a choice that I hoped would remain. The other particular issue was the 5 cents a litre, and then the one was to force the municipalities, who are elected the same way as we are, to adhere to the mini­ mum haul rates.

I said that I had great difficulty with that one, but write me a letter on those issues, and I'll deal with them. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Meadowlark, followed by Athabasca-Lac La Biche, Edmonton-Jasper Place, Edmonton- Whitemud, Calgary-Fish Creek, and nine others. Hazardous Materials Management (continued) MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Toxic spills are becoming a daily threat to the safety and health of Albertans. Yesterday seven Albertans ended up in hospital after a near fatal brush with a very serious toxic spill in this city.

We get reports from this government; we get commitments from a minister to debate. What we do not get after months of waiting is action to protect Albertans from toxic spills in this province. To the min­ ister responsible for public safety. Why have steps not yet been taken to correct this problem, and what action will you be taking specifically in response to the report that you've just tabled today? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member did­ n't hear the statistics that I gave a few minutes ago, and perhaps I could just repeat them.

Recently Alberta Public Safety Serv­ ices brought 117 cases to trial, 24 of which are still before the courts, and a further seven cases are pending. If the hon. mem­ ber would as well kindly want to refer to the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Control Act,

an Act of course passed by this Legislative Assembly and proclaimed when the member was a member in the last Legislature, the member will know that fines can go up to $100,000 and jail sentences can go up to two years. Of course, it's not the government that determines what the fine is, nor the jail sentence. It's the courts that determine that. Mr.

Speaker, as well, specifically with respect to the case the hon. member raised, the one in the city of Edmonton yesterday, I will be receiving reports from the Edmonton fire department, the first group under the dangerous goods inspection system that we have in the province of Alberta, who will be providing infor­ mation to Alberta Public Safety Services, and an investigation is under way. As we all know, the rules of the House are that the minister cannot comment should matters arrive before the courts. MR. MITCHELL: Mr.

Speaker, I'm going to try with the Min­ ister of the Environment to see if we can get some action from there. We just get words from this minister. To the Minister of the Environment. Will he be pressing whoever -- maybe it's the Minister of Public Works, Supply and Services -- to ensure that we strengthen spills legislation in this province, as it is elsewhere in other jurisdictions, by introducing legislation which makes a spill an offence in and of itself, which provides for compensation to victims who are unwittingly harmed by a spill, and legislation that creates . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Order please.

Perhaps the mem­ ber could draft the legislation. Minister of the Environment, please, the detail. MR. KLEIN: I feel quite flattered, Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark's question and the previous question submitted by the Leader of the Opposition, whereby I take full blame for the environmental disasters, yet the Leader of the Opposition directs all his questions to the min­ ister of supply and services and public safety, which only goes to point out how confused the opposition really is on this par­ ticular issue. But relative to the question, Mr.

Speaker, certainly we will be involved in an ongoing review of this situation and will put into legislation whatever regulations are deemed necessary at the time. MR. MITCHELL: To the Premier, Mr. Speaker. Yes, there is confusion in this government over who exactly is responsible.

Could the Premier please confirm that inaction in this important area is relating to the fact that it's falling between the cracks because two ministers have partial responsibility for it, one of those ministers was fired from the environment portfolio last year because he couldn't handle it properly, and the other minis­ ter is too new to know what to do about this issue? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I sense the frustration in the hon. member's voice and in his question, because it appears that the opposition are doubling up on their researchers. They're now

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 435 asking the same question in each party. Both of the ministers have given them very adequate answers, and the hon. member doesn't like to hear that the ministers have got this matter under control. Metis Agreements MR. CARDINAL: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney General's department, responsible for native affairs. As the minister is well aware, the eight Metis settlements in northern Alberta are making new moves forward, new initia­ tives. As you are aware and I expressed yesterday, my con­ stituents in the north are still living in poverty.

We need new initiatives in order to move forward. We need jobs, the jobs that the opposition is trying to cancel out. The question to the hon. minister is: yesterday's referendum between the government and the Metis accord: could he give the results here to the As­ sembly today? [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: You might as well sit down, hon. minister, please. Hon. minister, we can still wait. Now let's give it a go, please. MR. ROSTAD: Mr.

Speaker, it is, I think, a great day for the Metis nation of Alberta that conducted a referendum on their eight settlements associations to determine from their con­ stituency whether they were in agreement with an accord that was negotiated between their settlement association and our government, and it gives me a great deal of pleasure to say that there was a 67 percent turnout and there was a 78 percent major­ ity in favour. MR. CARDINAL: Could the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker, give a bit more information in detail as to what this accord means to the Metis of Canada, the uniqueness of this accord? MR.

ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, the accord is unique in Canada. It's a very strong indication of the leadership that has come from this government and from our Premier, who in March of 1987 at the First Ministers' Conference specifically said: the Metis peo­ ple of Alberta will be under the jurisdiction of Alberta; we'll gladly take that, and then we'll work with them to have a made in Alberta self-determination. That's in fact what this accord has done. I think all of Alberta should stand proud, especially our government and our Premier. MR. CARDINAL: Mr. Speaker, my last question to the hon. minister.

This accord has now dealt with the eight Metis settle­ ments in Alberta. There are still over 40,000 Metis people in Alberta. Most of those are in the north. What is our govern­ ment doing to address their issues? MR. ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, this accord has a number of parts to it. One is a financial package, one is a legislative package, one is a comanagement of resources package, and the last is a commission agreement for a transition phase to self- determination.

Within the legislative package, Bills which will be retabled and are very similar to the ones that were retabled as 64 and 65 will clearly indicate that this is a settlement for all the Metis of Alberta, not just those presently on the settlements. But aside from the settlement, the Metis Association of Alberta has a framework agreement that has been worked together with our government and those Metis to make our government pro­ grams more accessible and is designed in such a way that it will deliver our programs to their culture.

With these two accords I think we're well on our way to recognizing the Metis nation for what they are: strong citizens of Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Jasper Place, Edmonton- Whitemud, Calgary-Fish Creek. Funding for Intervenors in Alberta-Pacific Project MR. McINNIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. After weeks of stonewalling, the Minister of the Environment told the Sierra Club on Monday evening that he will provide $75,000 in fund­ ing to intervenors who are participating in the Honshu/ Mitsubishi environmental impact assessment; that's Alberta- Pacific in Tory- speak, Mr. Speaker.

Anyway, two weeks ago the minister was more concerned about protecting his butt from what he calls the opposition; that seems to be the majority of Albertans. "Why would we?" he said. I want to congratulate the minister on his first official flip-flop. But I'd like to know if he'd explain why he's using taxpayers' money to fund this in­ itiative, modest though it is, as opposed to the customary prac­ tice of having the companies pay the freight for this. MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, if anyone is deficient, it's the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Jasper Place, particularly deficient in information, particularly deficient in research. If he had bothered to check it out, he would have found that my predeces­ sor issued a press release on February 23 of this year, a public document which even the opposition can obtain without filing a motion for a return. I'll read from the press release, Mr. Speaker: To allow participation by local municipal authorities and af­ fected Native communities in the Alberta Pacific E.I.A. Re­ view Board meetings, Alberta Environment will make some funding available.

It has been determined that $75,000 would be a sufficient amount of money. MR. McINNIS: Oh, no. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that we have a Hansard in this province and the minister said two weeks ago, "Relative to the funding: why would we?" I wonder if the minister will now explain why it is that he's turning this money over to municipalities, most of whom were part of the mill boosters' rally that the minister attended; you know, the one with the real people? Why does it go to the municipalities who are boosters rather than the nongovernmental organizations who maybe have some concerns? MR.

KLEIN: Well, I attended the Sierra Club rally too, which also had a lot of real people as well, and I felt quite good about attending that particular rally. Mr. Speaker, relative to inter­ venor funding I think that there is a difference between funding to facilitate a process and funding that is given to very, very spe­ cial interest groups who are not directly connected with the project. And that's precisely what I was talking about. MR. McINNIS: Mr. Speaker, to the minister, who tells the Sierra Club that he'll only go there if there are no other political parties present.

I wonder if he would explain why the govern­ ment took the position yesterday that the people of Alberta can't

436 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 even see the agreements with the forest companies and how they're supposed to evaluate a deal if they can't even look at it? MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. minister. There was suffi­ cient discussion on that issue yesterday afternoon for about two hours. [interjections] Well, sorry. Edmonton-Whitemud, followed by Calgary-Fish Creek. Industrial Waste Site in Edmonton-Whitemud MR. WICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, it has become clear over the last few days that this government does not believe environment to be a significant issue, that this government does not sense that the environment is the number one concern of Albertans. In fact, when they mismanage the handling of a crisis situation such as PCBs in a residential area, they go out of their way to cover it up. It's a fact, Mr. Speaker, that the June 5 cleanup or­ der came after my office had contacted the minister's office re­ garding this serious situation. My question to the Minister of the Environment.

Why did the minister have to take an environ­ mental crisis of this magnitude, $1 million in cleanup costs alone, under advisement when first raised in this House by the Liberal caucus 10 months -- I repeat, 10 months -- after his very own department was first made aware of it? MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, as far as I know, all proce­ dures relative to this issue were followed with respect to the cleanup after the land was acquired by public works, supply, and safety. I think the hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud was provided with a detailed account of the action that has been taken to date.

Relative to his inquiry to my office, sir, I understand that a secretary of his phoned someone in my office. Something obvi­ ously fell through the cracks. All it needed was another phone call to me, sir, from the hon. member. When I see a message from any member, I will get back to that particular member. That's all it requires. It doesn't require a lot of press releases being issued and a lot of political grandstanding. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. On a point of order on that last response. MR. SPEAKER: What's the citation and what's the point? SOME HON. MEMBERS: After question period. MR.

SPEAKER: After question period. [interjection] MR. WICKMAN: Citation 85(e). MR. SPEAKER: We don't have one of those. Nice try. Bingo. With due respect to the hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud, I'm sure you can look for your own legal counsel rather than the one you just used. Supplementary. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to the minister of public works. Would the minister explain why residents of Whitemud were not informed of PCB contamination for a full 10 months after government officials knew of the situation? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, first of all, a point of clarifica­ tion.

The hon. member heard the explanation yesterday in terms of when the information was provided to the government in terms of low-level contaminants. We went through that yester­ day, and the hon. member also heard what the response was. So to confuse it, then, with calls to other ministers' offices is really stretching it, I would think. There are certain words we can't use in this Assembly, I guess, Mr. Speaker, so I'd better stop right there. Mr. Speaker, the reviews that were done in terms of what was on site -- and we're talking about a 178-acre site, two small portions, three acres, perhaps, in size each.

Yesterday I gave in the House the statistics with respect to it and also the standards that were used. There's absolutely no safety concern with re­ spect to any of the samples that were brought to our attention. Steps were taken to seal off the premises. Steps were taken to hire an environmental management consultant to provide a scheme for the cleanup. Winter came; the ground froze. You can't rip off ground where there's no safety hazard during the wintertime, and we've moved on it now in the month of June of 1989.

I think its June 23 of this week that citizens in the area will be invited to attend a meeting to hear exactly what the reclamation plan is all about. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Calgary-Fish Creek, fol­ lowed by Calgary-Mountain View, then Calgary-North West. MR. WICKMAN: A point of order. I'm missing a question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: It's all right. A little traffic control problem here. Final supplementary, Edmonton-Whitemud. MR. WICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That's 86(

e) by the way. MR. SPEAKER: By the way, hon. member, it's got nothing to do with private members' Bills, which your citation is on. Sorry. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to the minister of public works. Will the minister comment as to whether he is prepared to pur­ sue all avenues, including legal ones, to recover the $1 million of taxpayers' money that will be involved in the cleanup of this particular site? MR. KOWALSKI: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has not been in the building or near the building today, but I've al­ ready said that publicly earlier today.

It's my intent to make sure that all of the legal documents associated with the purchase of the land by the province in 1984 are reviewed to see whether or not there's any provision for liability to the original owner. My understanding on the advice given to me to date is that the purchase was made as part of the restricted development area in 1984, and it was purchased on an "as" basis. I should point out that the firm had been on the site since 1970. They are a recycler, and they're there to gather materials to improve the environment of the province of Alberta.

If there were any con­ cerns with respect to anything that might have been happening on the site, I would kindly and very gently remind the hon. member, who now is a Member of this Legislative Assembly,

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 437 that during the time frame 1970 to 1989 the hon. member also had an opportunity to serve on the council of the city of Ed­ monton and would have had an opportunity as a alderman in the city of Edmonton to make sure that certain provisions of the Municipal Government Act might have been put in place if the concern is of the magnitude addressed today now that the mem­ ber is a Member of this Legislative Assembly. International Oil Prices MR. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker, international oil prices are, of course, critically important to our province and to our economy.

As these prices are obviously impacted by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, has the Minister of Energy yet assessed the OPEC agreement reached earlier this month and determined its impact on Alberta, our oil industry, and likely future OPEC developments as well as international oil markets? MR. ORMAN: Mr. Speaker, that is a very important question, particularly in the context of our discussions with regard to reve­ nues and expenditures in this Assembly and our provincial budget. I'd like to point out to the hon.

Member for Calgary- Fish Creek that I had the opportunity to visit in Sparks, Nevada, with the Interstate Oil Compact Commission, and I had the op­ portunity to meet with the governors of Wyoming and Alaska. We had very good meetings to discuss the implications of OPEC on a continental basis. I'd also like to point out to the hon. member that I had the opportunity to meet in a private way with Dr. Subroto, the secretary-general of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. Mr. Speaker, the encouraging signs are quite evident out of OPEC today.

There is a return to the traditional supply/demand economics and not so much emphasis on the politics of OPEC. There is also co-operation within the member countries, most notably Kuwait, which has traditionally been indulging in over- supply. With the new OPEC quota of 19.5 million barrels a day the OPEC countries were able to get Kuwait's signature to the agreement. Kuwait subsequently has agreed to decrease their overproduction above their quota. A final comment, Mr. Speaker.

The other encouraging sign is that Iraq and Iran, who have traditionally been the difficulties in OPEC agreements, actually acted as arbitrators between Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. So it is positive. It was a very im­ portant opportunity for me to meet with the secretary-general of OPEC. MR. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker, in the minister's meetings with the secretary-general of OPEC did the the minister learn of any spe­ cific elements of OPEC's strategic planning that have relevance and pertinence to Albertans involved in our oil industry here at home? MR. ORMAN: I think the most important aspect of that ques­ tion, Mr.

Speaker, is the objectives of OPEC. I think its objec­ tive is stronger than we've seen in the past to promote stability and co-operation amongst the OPEC countries. Obviously, the question always comes down to price. Dr. Subroto has advised me that OPEC will be moving towards a reference price, a bas­ ket price, of $18 out of the gulf. They will have a monitoring committee that will be following very closely the world call on OPEC crude, and hopefully, rather than on an ad hoc basis, they can determine quotas.

We'll be able to have a price monitoring committee take on the additional obligations of increases in quotas on a regular basis rather than ad hoc during particular meetings. MR. PAYNE: Well, Mr. Speaker, as a consequence of the monitoring and the strategic planning and navel-gazing, is the minister prepared to make a specific price forecast, which really is the bottom line of interest with our industry? MR. ORMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd be wealthy beyond my wildest dreams if I could predict the price of OPEC.

But with regard to the reference price that OPEC is using of $18 in the gulf, I can say that translates into about $20 west Texas intermediate. I should say that it seems like the secretary-general of OPEC is more optimistic than our Provincial Treasurer. I'll have to have a word with him on that. We should also know that they are pursuing an evenness in price, a steady increase in price. They want to deal with production on a very incremental basis, and they are looking for co-operation. There are plans for meetings with consuming countries.

So I think the co-operation in OPEC and the gesture towards consuming countries is also important. MR. SPEAKER: With due respect to all members of the House, the Chair attempted yesterday to try to speed up question period. Perhaps we could take that under consideration again today as we proceed, because at the moment we have something like an­ other 10 people wanting to get in, and question period expires at about 3:28. Calgary-Mountain View, followed by Calgary-North West, then Red Deer-North. Funding of World Blitz Chess Championship MR. HAWKESWORTH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In this House on June 15 in answer to my question about a defunct chess tournament in Calgary, the Minister of Tourism stated, "Very definitely, the only involvement I had was one meeting when Global Chess came forward." The minister has also made it clear that he called the manager of the Calgary Convention Centre approximately in May of 1988 to promote this chess tournament. Quite contrary to what he told this House, the min­ ister's involvement was greater than what he would have had us believe on June 15: that he was only a passive participant in one meeting. To the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister now retract his statement of June 15, which I've just quoted? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, again, we must reject the

preamble. It is misrepresenting the process, and very definitely what was stated on June 15 was factual. When you receive as a minister a proposal that affects two levels of government, it is courtesy to call that other level of government and work with them. That was done. I've stated in the House earlier this week that I did call Mr. Richards, and it's been in Hansard. Mr. Speaker, we do have a responsibility to promote this province and to expand the tourism business. If we take the attitude of the members opposite, nothing would ever happen. MR. HAWKESWORTH: Mr.

Speaker, I want to make this ab­ solutely clear. When the minister stated to this House on June 15 about one involvement in this tournament, was he referring to the occasion when Mr. Brian Foster dropped off a proposal at

438 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 his office, which was also a statement that he's made in this House? Was that the one occasion that the minister was refer­ ring to as to his involvement in this tournament? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, when I had a meeting, as I've stated very many times before, August 10 was that involvement, with my deputy, another member from the department, and the proponent, Mr. Robert Hamilton. The reference you just made to someone dropping off an envelope at my office --I did read the presentation after it was dropped off. I did not receive it by hand.

It was given to me by my staff, and after reading it, I called Mr. Richards, as I stated earlier in the week. MR. HAWKESWORTH: Mr. Speaker, rather than one involve­ ment, as he initially stated in this House, he is now saying that there were at least two occasions when he was involved. I want him to now admit: was the statement that he made in this House on June 15 not true? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I've already answered that question. In doing my job as a minister, I have a responsibility to communicate with other levels of government and tourist bureaus. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.

Calgary-North West, followed by Red Deer-North, then Edmonton-Centre. Closure of Dominion Glass Plant in Redcliff MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. From the begin­ ning, when the Liberal opposition brought the issue of the closure of the Redcliff glass plant before this House, the govern­ ment has consistently tried to deny any responsibility for the loss of jobs that is going to result due to the closure. The more research I do, however, I realize that the government did not do everything they said they would do to try and keep the plant open.

In fact, as early as February of this year the federal gov­ ernment was investigating the legality of the takeover under the federal Competition Act with the knowledge at that time, in February, Mr. Speaker, that the takeover would result in the closure of the Redcliff plant. My question is to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. Did the minister have prior consultations with the federal government, with the federal Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, who knew that the takeover would result in closure? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member has raised a matter relating to federal government matters entirely. The is­ sue of the potential takeover of the Domglas plant by Con­ sumers Packaging Ltd. was a matter of discussions between the federal government and the proponents of the takeover. It was not referred to this government for any reference or any particu­ lar action.

Therefore, I don't know quite what the hon. member is getting to in his question, because the responsibility for that matter rests solely and entirely with the government of Canada, but I assume we'll hear more about it in the supplementaries which he has written out and will read in due course. MR. BRUSEKER: You did a good job, Mr. Minister. To the Minister of Economic Development and Trade.

Did the minister consult with the employees of the plant to discuss the possibility of an employees' buy-out of the plant so they could keep the jobs and keep the $15 million payroll in the com­ munity there and keep the plant open? MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to review, as I have done on a fairly consistent basis with the hon. Member for Calgary-North West, all the steps we have been involved in, dating back to last September, whereby we worked very closely, as my colleague the Deputy Premier has indicated to the Legis­ lative Assembly, firstly with Domglas and then with Consumers Packaging Ltd.

We did take every step that we possibly could to ensure the maintenance of that plant. Even up to yesterday we asked if they would offer reconsideration of the closure of the plant. Notwithstanding that fact, Mr. Speaker, I indicated again yesterday that we are going to work very closely with the community to see if we can attract further industry so that we can offset some of the job loss that has taken place in the com­ munity of Redcliff. MR. BRUSEKER: I wonder if the ministers take courses on answering the question they want to answer instead of the one that was asked.

My final question will be to the Minister of the Environment then. Since the closure of the plant will result in 40,000 tonnes of glass having no destination, the government and the former Minister of the Environment have made a commitment not to have the glass go to landfill sites. Do you have a plan to prevent the glass ending up in landfill sites in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The time for question period has expired. Might we complete this series of questions? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. MR. KLEIN: Mr.

Speaker, I've discussed this with my depart­ ment officials, and they will try to work with the plant to find markets for this glass. I don't know about the commitment that was supposedly made by my predecessor, but I would suspect that if indeed the markets can't be found -- and the reason, I un­ derstand, for the closure of the plant in the first place was the lack of markets -- then perhaps this glass will have to be dis­ posed of in one way or another. Landfill is one of the methods of disposal. I will have to check on the supposed commitment that was made by my predecessor. AN HON. MEMBER: November 1, '88.

MR. KLEIN: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The time for question period has expired. Since there's been oral notice of Standing Order 40 and that may or may not take some period of time, once again I think we have to make the proposal to the House: are we prepared to go back to Introduction of Special Guests because of three groups in the gallery? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. Thank you. The Chair recognizes, in this order, Edmonton-Centre,

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 439 Edmonton-Meadowlark, and Grande Prairie. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) REV. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the Assembly. I'd like to introduce two groups, the first being a group from the YMCA in a program they have in Edmonton- Centre. There are 10 people in the group with their employment counselor Ms Marianne Georg. I'd ask that they please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. Also, Mr.

Speaker and Members of the Legislative As­ sembly, in the members' gallery are 37 students from the Bredin Institute, a business college program for student adults. They're with their teachers Cathie Olsen, Diane Larose, and Cheryel Goodale, and I'd ask that they, too, please stand and receive the welcome from the members of the Assembly. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, just before my guests from the Good Samaritan Care Centre depart, I wish to introduce them.

The group leader is Kay Levey, and she's accompanied by Sharon McLeod, Marg Dickson, Flo Real, Dick Agate, Carmen Pastor, Jean Jensen, George Whittingham, and Jenny Afolder. I would ask that they bear with me for a few minutes. I'll join them for a picture, and I ask my colleagues here to give them a warm, courteous welcome. MR. SPEAKER: Grande Prairie. DR. ELLIOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my pleasure to­ day to introduce 35 students from the Hythe elementary school. They have with them teachers Vince Hewgill, Dwayne Speager, and Clara Howard, along with many parents and friends.

I'd ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of our Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Points of order arising in question period. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to rise on a point of or­ der under Beauchesne; first of all,

section 417: Answers to a question should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. I take that in conjunction with

section 485, which deals with unparliamentary words. Mr. Speaker, my argument is that when the minister implied that a mere secretary contacted his office when in fact it was me that phoned and left a message for Rod Love, his executive as­ sistant, to call, and when in fact it was Rod Love, his executive assistant, that called my executive assistant, I object. I object. MR. SPEAKER: The point of order is what? We're not into the details of who's who in this place. Just the point of order. MR. WICKMAN: I object, Mr.

Speaker, that those are unpar­ liamentary words, when they demean people's positions. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Thank you, hon. member. The second part of the point of order is a complaint, indeed legiti­ mate within your own eyes; nevertheless, it's not a matter for question period or a point of order. With respect to your citation 417, that's a great improvement over the previous one of 85(b), dealing with private Bills. Nevertheless, 417, the Chair agrees: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

Which in turn reflects the same thing with regard to questions. The Chair looks forward to that being followed by both sides of the House starting with tomorrow, plus brevity. MS BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to call a point of order citing Beauchesne 416. There are a number of other citations, but that's probably the clearest example. Mr. Speaker, you called to order the Environment minister prior to him leaping to his feet to respond to a question which I know he wanted to answer, because I saw him stand up twice in an attempt to do so, a question put by the Member for Edmonton-Jasper Place.

Now, I can only paraphrase the ques­ tion from the Member for Edmonton-Jasper Place. Your com­ ment following that question was that the matter was dealt with yesterday. In fact, Mr. Speaker, in the first instance the matter respecting motions for returns is not yet concluded, so that would be argument number one. The question, I believe, was: in view of the government's indication yesterday respecting public release of certain information with regard to various pulp mills, how can a reasonable environmental impact assessment go forward, and how can intervenors have any access to infor­ mation?

A legitimate question. It seems to me under the circumstances, Mr. Speaker, that at this point the minister should be allowed to respond to that ques­ tion, because it's his right to determine whether or not he wants to. And as the question has not been previously put, it seems to me a most reasonable point of order and opportunity for the minister to respond. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order. MR. McINNIS: Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to refer Your Honour to Erskine May, 20th edition, page 337: Rules of order regard­ ing form and contents of questions.

The purpose of a question is to obtain information or press for action. My submission to Your Honour's attention is that I attempted to seek both information and action in respect to the environmental impact assessment, which takes place outside this Chamber. It wasn't my intention to reflect on a vote of the Assembly which has not yet taken place but rather to seek information and action from the minister on how the environmental impact assessment can be conducted in view of the position taken by the govern­ ment yesterday. MR.

SPEAKER: with regard to what transpires in question period, there is indeed a fair amount of latitude given to the Chair, and the Chair has been giving, in turn, a fair amount of latitude to the House. One of the comments made at the particu­ lar time the issue was raised on the supplementary by Edmonton-Jasper Place was that the minister had not spoken at all in terms of yesterday's debate. If members would care to look at page 408 of Hansard, they'd see that the minister did, indeed, make a very brief comment. So he did speak.

The summation of the Blues, which the Chair has before it, still leads the Chair to believe that while questions are supposed

440 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 to be raised about urgent matters within question period, never­ theless yesterday afternoon, in the opinion of the Chair, in two hours of debate with regard to the whole issue and in terms of documentation, agreements, and so forth, the matter was very well aired. Perhaps the minister would have had time to speak to the main motion after the amendment had been carried.

However, at that time the Member for Edmonton-Jasper Place was recognized by the Chair, and therefore in that particular procedure will be the summation with respect to the debate with that particular motion for a return. In terms of the decision today, it was then a call of the Chair that two hours yesterday was more than sufficient with regard to that. No doubt the House will be back to it, probably tomorrow or on Tuesday. The Chair also looks forward to the fact that in all likelihood in question period tomorrow or the next day the matter may indeed be pursued further, but not on this occasion.

Orders of the Day. [interjection] Can't have a point of order on a point of order. Thank you. Orders of the Day. [interjection] Oh, thank you. Standing Order 40, the Member for Calgary-Buffalo. head: MOTIONS UNDER STANDING ORDER 40 MR. CHUMIR: Thank you. It was almost forgotten, Mr. Speaker. I'm rising under Standing Order 40 on a matter of . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Calgary-Buffalo, thank you very much. There's a lot of noise in the House. Perhaps we could hear what's going on. Thank you. Please proceed. MR. CHUMIR: Thank you. I'm rising on a matter of urgency under Standing Order 40 to propose a motion.

Be it resolved that smoking not be permitted in the Assembly Chamber. Copies of the motion are now being distributed to all members, Mr. Speaker. Would it be the pleasure of the Chair that I wait a moment until every member has a copy, or should I continue? MR. SPEAKER: Please read the motion while it's being dis­ tributed; it's brief. MR. CHUMIR: Mr. Speaker, I am going to restrict my com­ ments, pursuant to the rules, to the issue of the urgency and ne­ cessity of dealing with the motion now. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that it is an urgent matter, and I would ask members to give it support, seeing as it is presented as a matter of deep conviction and certainly not in any partisan spirit. It's urgent because it deals with a health matter which has been neglected for too long by this House, which should be providing leadership on this matter rather than lagging behind much of the community, as it does. Dr. Johnson -- not the Dr. Johnston who is kibitzing across the hall; another Dr. Johnson, Samuel Johnson -- once said that a man who doesn't look after his stomach shouldn't be trusted with anything.

And an MLA who doesn't recognize the importance of health should not be trusted with the affairs of this province. Now, Mr. Speaker, we all know that smoking is permitted in this Chamber during committee meetings, and this presents a danger to the health not only of the smokers themselves but to each of us who breathe that secondhand smoke. I would submit that it should be a matter of elementary courtesy and considera­ tion that smokers not subject nonsmokers to such smoke.

Now, the danger aspect -- and the urgency, of course, relates to the danger -- was re-emphasized in a recent report from the Envi­ ronment Protection Agency of the United States which has been the subject of a news story just this morning. This report makes more clear than ever before that secondhand smoke is indeed harmful to health. It particularly affects those who have pre­ existing problems such as allergies, lung or heart problems. But the impact is not restricted to those persons. MS BARRETT: Come on. Urgency, Sheldon. MR. CHUMIR: That is the urgency. And the. . . MR.

SPEAKER: Perhaps hon. members could direct their com­ ments to the Chair when the Chair recognizes them, if this does indeed receive unanimous consent. Calgary-Buffalo, summation with regard to urgency, please. MR. CHUMIR: The Canadian Medical Association has pointed out, Mr. Speaker, that smoking causes an estimated 35,000 deaths per year. Indeed, the health implications to those who smoke are very serious, far beyond those numbers. Like smok­ ing itself, it's obvious that the danger increases with the contin­ ued and increased exposure to secondhand smoke.

It's therefore no answer to say that we have allowed smoking for 84 years in the Legislature of this province and that there is therefore no urgency. In fact, that's like saying that a man who's falling from a tall building is in no danger until he hits the . . . MS BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. Get to the urgency. MR. CHUMIR: Hey, you sit here and blabber by the hour -- and blabber. What are you talking about? MR. TAYLOR: One love affair down the drain. MR. CHUMIR: Oh, I'm sure we'll have more skits from the press gallery. Anyway, the longer that we go on smoking in this Chamber, Mr.

Speaker, the greater the danger is to the members of this House. So now is time to establish a nonsmoking policy in this Chamber. This morning the Standing Committee on Public Ac­ counts voted to prohibit smoking at the meetings of that com­ mittee. It's a great precedent which does credit to the com­ mittee. And I beseech members of this House to support this motion and to consider the health of fellow MLAs and to con­ sider the image and reputation of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Under Standing Order 40 it's only up to the mover to try to make the case for urgency.

All those in favour of continuing with the motion, please say aye. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed, please say no.

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 441 SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. SPEAKER: The motion fails. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Third Reading) Bill 2 Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1989 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I move third reading of Bill 2, Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1989. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Edmonton-Highlands. MS BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Having reviewed the Hansard and having been here for some of the debate surround­ ing the three interim supply Bills, obviously the Official Opposi­ tion New Democrats are not going to hold up the business of the government and payments to people who rely on that business, whether employees or recipients of aid.

We would conclude our arguments with one point, and that is: remember that there is still the option, and the Official Op­ position New Democrats will keep that option open, that such massive amounts of special warrant spending, prior to coming to the Assembly for approval after the fact, could still be dealt with through a special select committee on requests for decisions. We urge the government to consider doing that, not only in elec­ tion years but in other years where the special warrants get into the several billion dollar mark.

But with that observation and request for consideration, I can assure the Treasurer that we'll be supporting this Bill. HON. MEMBERS: Question. MR. SPEAKER: Will the minister sum up? There's a call for the question. [Motion carried; Bill 2 read a third time] [It was moved by the members indicated that the following Bills be read a third time, and the motions were carried] No.

Title Moved by 3 Appropriation (Alberta Capital Fund) Johnston Interim Supply Act, 1989 4 Appropriation (Alberta Heritage Savings Johnston Trust Fund, Capital Projects Division) Interim Supply Act, 1989-90 7 Farm Credit Stability Fund Amendment Johnston Act, 1989 head:COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Schumacher in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Members of the committee, please come to order. head: Main Estimates 1989-90 Culture and Multiculturalism MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a rather truncated time period for a very important department this afternoon.

I'd like to say that this afternoon's business will be the estimates of the Department of Culture and Multiculturalism. The main estimates are to be found commencing on page 87 of the main book, and the ele­ ments are at page 30 of the elements book. I'd like to welcome the Minister of Culture and Multicul­ turalism to present and explain his estimates. MR. MAIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Indeed, they are the main estimates of the Department of Culture and Multicul­ turalism, and I'm pleased, honoured, and thrilled to be here in a truncated format to deal with this most important department.

I would like to first of all, as seems to be the tradition, have the committee recognize members of the staff and department, in no particular order: Jack O'Neill, Ken MacLean, David Rogers, Susan McCulloch, Rai Batra, Terry Keyko, Vijay Sharma, and Glen Buick, who are in the members' gallery watching over this most important procedure. Our budget for 1989-90 is approximately $47 million.

That reflects a modest, fiscally conservative increase of 1.8 percent from the previous year but allows for responsible growth in ar­ eas that do provide a large public impact and a return on the in­ vestment of Alberta's tax dollars: direct grant programs and the construction of heritage facilities, in the main -- no pun intended. Our direct grant programs include substantial and significant and needed increases to performing arts grant recipients.

Mem­ bers of the committee will recall that in '89-90 the previous minister provided significant operating support to the eight larg­ est professional performing arts groups -- the "big eight," as they're known -- in the amount of $4.35 million from the lottery fund. There may be some feeling that we have in some way re­ duced our support to the performing arts; in fact, it's exactly the opposite. The budget provides for a $900,000 increase to recipients under other performing arts grant programs.

That in­ cludes a $700,000 increase to provide the same level of increase to the smaller performing arts groups as was given to the larger professional organizations, and as well, under the community series programs an additional $200,000 to help communities enjoy art and culture that they might not otherwise be able to. For example, last year organizations presented more than 2,000 performances to nearly a million Albertans all across the province.

Now, this also includes $600,000 in grants -- to get an idea of how this impacts on the province and the good that this does in giving credence and credibility to the government's feeling of the importance of culture across the province, and just to give an idea that it's more than just giveaways, that there is a significant amount of payback here, the $600,000 in grants paid to the com­ munity series organizations generated $9 million in direct ex­ penditures in all parts of the province. The $3 million in grants paid to professional performing arts generate direct expenditures of some $21 million.

So there is an ongoing economic impact to the work that the Department of Culture and Multiculturalism is doing in the province of Alberta. The performing arts groups played to, as I said, in excess of a million Albertans and employ

442 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 something in the order of 1,700 people. Another important area of the department is the heritage facilities, another area where the investment of tax dollars pays back, over a period of time, large benefits to the province, not only in terms of enjoyment and education but in terms of eco­ nomic impact as well.

There are two significant new heritage facilities that are coming on stream in the next while that are currently in the development stage: one in the northern part of the province, the Reynolds-Alberta Museum at Wetaskiwin; and the Remington Alberta Carriage Centre in Cardston. Now, this in the budget represents a total increase of $1.9 million; staff of 19. It's divided as $1.2 million and 13 for the Wetaskiwin pro­ ject and $700,000 and six staff at the Cardston facility.

Just to give members of the committee an idea of what it is that we're talking about here, the Reynolds-Alberta Museum in Wetaskiwin will deal with the history of agriculture, industry, and transportation and will have as its centerpiece Canada's finest collection of original heavy equipment and antique vehi­ cles -- donated, by the way. The Remington Alberta Carriage Centre will be in Cardston and will deal with the general history of horse-drawn transportation.

The main substance of the dis­ play there will be 200 antique carriages from the collections of the Glenbow-Alberta Institute, from the Provincial Museum of Alberta, and the estate of Mr. Don Remington -- again, a signifi­ cant donation from a private individual. These will become ma­ jor tourist attractions. We know that these kinds of things work, because the de­ partment has had great success not only in Alberta but globally with its previous heritage attractions, such as the Tyrrell mu­ seum in Drumheller and Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump near Fort Macleod in the southern part of the province.

These pro­ vide a major economic attraction, a major economic injection of activity into the communities in which they are built. We're estimating, through an economic impact assessment system mat's used for these facilities, to give you an idea of the kind of impact this type of investment has, that in '88-89 the combined regional income impact of Tyrrell, Head-Smashed-In, and the Frank Slide Interpretive Centre in the Crowsnest Pass will be almost $12 million. Our studies show that for every staff posi­ tion at these facilities we create nearly five jobs in the private sector.

So it's an ongoing injection of activity into the economy on that type of a basis. We find that in the course of three to seven years there will be a return to the economy, in terms of economic activity, of the cost of construction of these facilities. It also provides an excellent opportunity for the government to work in concert with the private sector. It's a basic tenet of what we believe, that the private sector should be involved in these facilities, and as I've mentioned briefly, we see this.

Just to give you an idea of how this works with these two projects that we are talking about here, of course the Alberta government undertakes the capital construction, but all the artifacts that will be in the Reynolds centre were donated by Stan Reynolds of Wetaskiwin, and 49 of the 200 carriages at the Cardston facility were donated by the late Don Remington of that city. The land on which the Remington centre sits was donated to the project by the town of Cardston.

Private-sector individuals are involved in supporting the development of the displays of the artifacts through any of a number of programs, including "foster wheels," in which we encourage individuals and corporations and busi­ nesses to get involved and adopt a tractor or take under their wing a combine or a carriage, whatever it happens to be, and provide the funds for that individual display. It's been a very successful program. As well, the local communities are involved through the es­ tablishment of "friends groups," in which members of the com­ munity can be involved in supporting the local facility.

I'll talk about the friends groups in my remarks just to give you an idea of how important they are to not only what we are doing in this department but also to the overall thrust of having the commu­ nity involved in everything, in every aspect of what's going on in the community. We find, not only in the heritage facilities but also in the cultural development area of our department and certainly in the multicultural, ethnocultural end of tilings, that volunteers play a key role.

I would suggest that if we did not have volunteers, we would not be talking about $47 million here tonight; we would be talking about hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of requirements to pay all these people. But they make a contribution, and it makes this happen. Tens of thousands of volunteers are involved each year in these various programs, and they make a significant economic impact in the community and also enhance the ability of the de­ partment to do the kinds of good jobs they're doing.

For ex­ ample, 10 friends groups in the course of 1988 raised more than $4 million in goods, in services, and in grants for their various and specific projects; 150,000 volunteers involved across the province in ethnocultural programs; 2,000 boards, with 10 or so volunteers each; 20,000 members delivering cultural services. Library boards alone involve 2,000 volunteers; 300 to 400 vol­ unteers staff the libraries and are involved in special program­ ming. Performing arts require scores, dozens, thousands of volunteers. It's right across the province.

We have in the department a board development program that helps volunteers in cultural organizations lead and teach and develop other volunteers, so it's an ongoing, interactive project. Last year 37 trained volunteer instructors delivered 40 board development workshops to more than 350 trustees, and the job continues. Now, we don't just operate in co-operation with volunteers, but we certainly are involved in co-operative programs within various aspects of the government, because a lot of what we do involves other departments and also other levels of government and other facilities.

Cultural Development provided seven sum­ mer workshop programs in the performing, visual, film, and lit­ erary arts, all co-sponsored with libraries, community colleges. The idea is that the department provides the expertise and the colleges or the libraries provide the manpower and the facilities in which these are delivered. For example. Summer Write is a summer school for young writers co-sponsored with the Red Deer College. It involves the business community there, which provides corporate sponsorship. So once again, in all that we do, we involve volunteers.

We involve different organizations, and attempt to involve the private sector to relieve the burden from the taxpayer at large for all of these programs that are very worth while, and get the community involved.

One of the most significant examples of a co-operative com­ munity program, of course, is something that many of you will be familiar with, and certainly the current Minister of Family and Social Services, who at the time chaired the Alberta Multi­ cultural Commission and its Inter Change '88, which was a se­ ries of hearings across the province that went to 14 different communities and heard from in excess of 350 individuals about what their concerns, dreams, ideals, goals, and suggestions were with regard to the multicultural face of Alberta and Canada as we head into the '90s and beyond.

This commission has been

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 443 working steadily since that time, and is working now, as we speak, under the capable direction of the new chairman, recently appointed, Mr. Steve Zarusky, the MLA from Redwater- Andrew, and I expect that this . . . [interjections] I share your endorsement of Mr. Zarusky, and I'm sure that as Mr. Zarusky and his colleagues complete their work in the course of the next several weeks, the report of the commission will indeed give us a true sense of where we will be going in terms of our multicul­ tural policy recommendations and so on and so forth.

We feel that there will be effective use there of funds to continue to pro­ mote understanding, education, and advocacy. We certainly are committed to a multicultural Alberta and a multicultural Canada. Now, I've touched a little bit on how these programs and how all the various aspects of what the department does have an impact across the province, and I'd just like to give you an idea of how we are now moving from where we are today to where we want to be in the years ahead.

If we could talk about librar­ ies for a moment, we are expanding there, of course, and already there are more than 300 library service points providing services to 94 percent of the province. We've established a number of library regional zones and systems, and they are expanding. New ones are coming on all the time, two new ones in the Peace region and Shortgrass are ready to go, and there are others com­ ing in the wings. We've expanded in Parkland and Yellowhead, and are very pleased with the level of service we're able to offer through this library system.

Workshops are ongoing, as I've mentioned, in the perform­ ing, visual, film, and literary arts, and they're held in a number of communities around the province, not just the major centres. We're in Red Deer and Vermilion, and in Camrose. The Al­ berta writers' workshop, for example, used to happen in just one major centre. Now it's spread around and, in partnership with local libraries and community colleges, is in a number of centres. Departmental grant programs reach about 2,000 direct grant recipients right across the province.

Our network of heritage facilities includes 132 museums and parks, 12 historic sites, two historic parks, 38 archives, and we expect to see at these facili­ ties something in the order of 4.5 million visitors who come to the parks. As we continue to work to develop the qualities of these museums and parks and attractions in co-operation with Tourism, with the private sector, and with Economic Develop­ ment and Trade, the idea is to bring people to a heritage site and encourage them to stay beyond just an hour or two; encourage them to stay for a day or two.

As people come and visit Head- Smashed-In or the Tyrrell museum or Historic Dunvegan or some of the future ones that we'll see, including Wetaskiwin and in Cardston, we expect that not only will they come and look at a museum, but they'll come and they'll stay in a motel, they'll buy a cheeseburger, they'll buy clothes, and there will be economic activity generated in the community. We know that if we can encourage people to stay one more day where they're going, the payback in terms of activity in the province will make it well worth while. That's the objective, and that, in fact, is what's happening.

Nearly a third of the visitation, of that $4.5 million, comes to the provincially operated heritage facilities. Another area where we're hoping to generate some signifi­ cant activity in Alberta is in the cultural industries. Now, this is something that is new, relatively speaking, but there is a great amount of activity in the culture industries. You only have to drive past a movie theatre on a Friday night in the summer and see the lineups to get an idea about what I'm talking about. Cul­ tural industries attract a huge amount of economic activity to an area.

Across Canada it's a $10 billion industry; it's the number 11 industry in the entire country. In Alberta we're looking at about $500 million, and we want to increase that, increase the generation.

So we're looking very carefully at how we can get involved in encouraging cultural industries: filmmaking, video-making, the recording industry, writing, and publishing; a great opportunity for us to continue the work we've done in diversifying the economy in an area that is clean, attractive, cul­ turally sound, provides education, entertainment, and is some­ thing that we feel is going to provide a great addition to the cul­ tural and economic activity of this province.

There is a great benefit in what we're doing, because not only are we moving ahead to the industrial end of things, but we recognize, of course, that you can't have cultural industries -- people involved in high-tech and expensive projects such as filmmaking and recording and publishing -- without developing in this province the kind of people who can do this.

So of course our grant programs and the foundations that are involved in this, the department and its various programs, and in some of the things I've outlined in terms of workshops, are working to develop people who can move into these jobs in the years ahead. It's an overall blended approach that we use to create the begin­ nings of an industry that slowly but surely as we work will develop, and there will be the people, Alberta people, who can do these things.

We're also interested to note that some people involved in filmmaking, for example, want to make films that may not have a huge commercial play but will be worth while making. We want to encourage that, and the way to do it is to continue to spur the economy of this province so that, for example, a cinematographer can work Monday to Thursday on an industrial video about a new plant that the Minister of Technology, Re­ search and Telecommunications may be developing, so that on Friday and Saturday and Sunday this filmmaker can make the documentary or the art film that he wants to do.

So obviously, as the economy continues to grow in this province -- and we know that it is -- we're providing opportunities to increase the opportunities for our cultural industries to grow. There's a happy blending of multiculturalism, of heritage development and cultural development, through this department, and I'm proud to be involved with this. It's an exciting field, and I'll just give you an example of one of the happy Mendings that we see in just one particular site.

Stephansson House is an historic site in the central part of the province, in an area of the province that by and large was settled by people of Scandinavian extraction around the area of Dickson and Markerville. Now, Stephansson House was the house in which the poet laureate of Iceland lived, an historic figure. The Department of Culture and Multiculturalism has acquired the site. We've renovated it. We have an historic pro­ gram going on in there that depicts and interprets some of that history.

But it also has the multicultural aspect because of the Icelandic connection there, and there's a large segment of the Icelandic and other Scandinavian areas that get involved in mul­ ticultural festivals there. We have a cultural development com­ ponent here connected to Mr. Stephansson's history, because each year there is a poetry contest that is now attracting poets and writers from across the province: a happy blending of his­ tory, of art, and ethnocultural activity all in one location. It's this kind of thing that depicts exactly what it is that the depart-

444 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 ment is attempting to do and is doing, in large measure very, very successfully, and we are going to be continuing to do it. [Mr. Jonson in the Chair] So I know that were I to come here today -- I'm sure I have the agreement of everybody here that what we're doing is a wonderful thing, that it's a great thing for the province, a great thing for all Albertans, that we all believe in culture. Were I to come here today and say, "Listen gang, we're talking about $47 million, $48 million; let's just get on with it," I know I'd have the full agreement of the committee.

Nevertheless, I want to emphasize that the expenditures today on behalf of Culture and Multiculturalism are an important investment in Alberta's future not only economically but artistically, culturally, from an educa­ tional standpoint, and also from a realization that the changing face of Alberta is coming, that this province has been a leader in recognizing that, and we're going to continue. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Edmonton- Highlands. MS BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the glowing report from the new minister, but much as I'm happy to congratulate him on his portfolio, I wish I could congratulate the performance of his department in the same breath. I'm sorry I can't, and I'm sorry that. . . [interjections] Do what, Jack? What would you like me to do? [interjection] I did congratulate him on his appointment. I can't congratulate him on the con­ tents of his budget, unfortunately. What is amply clear, Mr.

Chairman, is that the funding authority for the Department of Culture and Multiculturalism is being shifted to what I call the slush fund department; that is, the minister responsible for lotteries and disbursements of prof­ its therefrom, because of the continual decrease in the amount of money that this minister has the right to grant compared to the increase that is going to the minister responsible for lotteries. I can assure you, Mr.

Chairman -- I don't know if the new minis­ ter does this, but I do and have done ever since the New Demo­ cratic Party established an advisory committee -- as the arts spokesperson for the Official Opposition New Democrats, I work with a committee, and they're all artists, every single one of them. And they're good. And they are unanimous in this overwhelming condemnation of the Conservative government's shift from the department of culture for funding to the depart­ ment of lottery revenues.

I would like to quote from one person on that committee, and the quote received a round of applause on May 27, when last we met. "We're sick of raping the poor through bingos and casinos." And that's exactly what's going on; this wonderful depart­ ment.

Artists, people involved in multicultural activities are increasingly now relying on those who go out and sell lottery tickets to generate money for the government and those who have to support their own organizations by luring poor people into bingos and casinos, hoping to make their big dream come true, spending sometimes their last buck in so doing, while these people have to take the money they raised through those means and use them to support their own endeavours; not to mention the fact that most of them are working in low-paid jobs in the first instance to support their art or their other activities. Mr.

Chairman, I couldn't help but notice over the years the slide in funding from the department of culture in terms of grants just to the arts communities. Every year, with the excep­ tion of election years, there are drops in the department for granting ability, and ever since Bill 10 was approved, the real authority for spending on culture has gone to the minister re­ sponsible for lottery revenues.

In 1982-83 the amount voted for the department, outside of the 75th Anniversary celebrations, was $77 million; '83-84 -- after the election -- $49.9 million; '84-85, we're back up to $70 million, less $114,000 for the 75th Anniversary. Back down to $59.6 million in 1985-86; ditto for 1986-87. In '87-88 -- look at the big drop there -- $49.9 million; '88-89, $46.9 million; 1989-90, just slightly up -- to get through an election, I suppose -- to $47 million. Mr.

Chairman, what this shows is that while I believe, and I do believe firmly, that this minister has great faith in the indus­ try of the arts, he obviously has no clout or does not understand that underfunding is the fastest recipe for strangling them in our community. It is the fastest recipe for driving people out of the province, Mr. Chairman.

I can refer the minister, and I will do, to a number of govern­ ment reports that I've referred to in previous years during con­ sideration of these estimates, which will show the minister con­ clusively -- and this information has been reiterated by federal studies on the same subject matter -- that every public dollar put into an investment in the arts generates more than $1 coming back to the revenue department by way of increased taxation as a result of increased economic activity and more people paying tax to the government. It is an investment. Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to point out a couple of weaknesses within the minister's department. I'll start from small and go to large. First of all, my committee is adamant that the minister should understand that up to 25 percent of the CRC grants -- which are done, I understand, through a different department but nonetheless should come to the attention of this minister -- are supposed to go to cultural endeavours. But the fact is that when municipalities receive the CRC grants, they can accept applica­ tions that don't actually ensure that 25 percent go to those cul­ tural endeavours.

In fact, someone has told me that they've seen instances where a municipality will avoid the rule by allowing that, quote, 25 percent of such and such a parking lot would be used for cultural activities, and therefore the CRC grant should go to the construction of something that is absolutely not cul­ tural in any sense at all. There is growing concern, Mr. Chairman, from within mem­ bers who sit on various committees in the province that there is increasing political interference by the department and by the minister responsible for lotteries in the foundation decisions.

That means that the department is putting a greater financial onus on the client groups. The minister spoke of cultural indus­ tries and says there's a need to develop a policy around cultural industries. Right on, Mr. Minister. Funny thing; I've been say. ing that for several years, and your predecessors haven't figured it out yet. If you'd like my help, just call on me; I'll help you work it out.

But might I suggest in the first place that you con­ tact your federal counterparts and ask them what happened to the regional economic development programs and why it is that this minister hasn't pursued inclusion of the arts industries in an economic regional development agreement with the federal government. Now, I understand he's going to have to defend his kissing cousins, those he ran against, by the way, last year, when he ran federally for a party not related to the one he cur­ rently sits for. But I'm sure they'd be happy to give him the answer as to why it is that they promise one thing before an

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 445 election and drop it afterwards in light of the Wilson budget of April 27 -- or should I say April 28; whichever is supposed to be the case. It looks like his federal cousins can't even control the date of the budget. The foundations, while they are very good, Mr. Chairman, should be elected or should have greater answerability than they have. It looks to me like they're suffering from political inter­ ference.

To the minister he might take note that last year I in­ troduced an Alberta arts council and board Act; I will be reintroducing a refined edition of that in a few week's time. He may want to take a look. It could solve a lot of his political problems, Mr.

Chairman, if the minister would consider striking a primarily elected board to adjudicate the dissemination of a fund given to it annually; first of all, because it would allow juries by peers, which would satisfy a number of the organiza­ tions within the arts overall, and secondly, because it would mean that there's an accountability process that currently does not obtain. I'm advised -- and of course I guess it's obvious to anybody who looks at the appointments to the foundation boards -- that first of all, those things should not be appointed just by one minister.

In fact, they shouldn't be appointed at all; maybe they should be elected. But in the second instance, there are imbalances in virtually every one of them, and there isn't an artist I know that hasn't talked to me about that issue. When it comes to galleries, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that the various institutional and private galleries are inad­ vertently -- and that's at best -- pitted against each other when it comes to funding. Now, I'd like to point out, for instance, that galleries within postsecondary institutions have faced budget reductions for the past five years.

The most they've been able to get is a grant of $10,000, which is unchanged since the mid 1970s. That grant is given by the Alberta Arts Foundation. Is there or is there not a commitment to the visual arts, Mr. Chair­ man? I suspect there is not. The minister talked about the organizations of the "friends." You know, there are the friends of this and the friends of that. A few years ago we were worried that the friends were going to ultimately be held responsible for finding funding for the vari­ ous institutions that they are friends of.

Now I'm more con­ cerned about what they're doing with the money they collect, Mr. Chairman. I notice the minister doesn't talk about that. Is the minister prepared to make some sort of rule that when they collect certain money at the door of various museums, a portion thereof should go back into that museum or institution? I don't see that he is. Now, I noticed the doublespeak, Mr. Chairman, when the minister talked about: Oh well, you know, what looks like up is really down, and what looks like down is really up. That's very clever, and it's a shell game.

The fact of the matter is that the funding for the performing arts in this year's budget is being cut by 28.9 percent. Not that they had a whole lot to begin with, but it's down to $4 million from $5.6 million. It is no excuse that they or some of their organizations happened to get some money in a pre-election year -- actually, it turned out to be an election year -- by the minister for slush funds. That is a shameful ad­ mission that this minister's responsibilities are being taken over by another minister, and who knows where that money is going to go to next.

This minister ought to get up and fight in cabinet for a proper budget every year. He ought to fight to have built-in over­ turned. He ought to fight to have that money going into general revenue, and then he ought to fight to have a sizable grant given over to his department to be handed over to adjudicator boards, so that they can determine how best to support the arts in Al­ berta, because they are an industry and they are an investment and they do bring more money in than they take out in any instance. Similarly, I noticed the cut to Film and Literary Arts.

It's handy-dandy that the minister talks about: Ah, you know, it's nice to have some films that might not have such commercial value. I've argued for years that if you're going to keep the Mo­ tion Picture Development Corporation responsibilities under the department of economic development, then at least have a bal­ ance to that and have a program within the department of culture that will engender activities in the not quite so commercial areas which in turn will engender greater creativity amongst in­ digenous artists in Alberta. What do I see as a result of this? A 6.3 percent cut in the budget, Mr. Chairman.

I'm always noticing that the administration of a department never goes down, not that I would argue it should. But the cuts are always in terms of the grants, and I have a real concern about that. I think this government is saying time and again to the people who are the creators in Alberta that they really don't count and that they should go out and work 18 hours a day at some minimum wage job in order to support their creativity.

I beg to differ with the assumption insofar as in the remaining six hours in the day I don't suppose they're going to have a lot of energy to be creative; they're usually going to want to sleep, like most of our species. Mr. Chairman, on the multiculturalism side of things I would like to make note of a couple of points. The minister's depart­ ment shows a fairly major slash again in an area that this gov­ ernment is very good at paying lip service to but not so good when it comes to standing up for them or providing financial assistance. That is vote 4.3, Multicultural Grants, cut by 83.3 percent.

Not that the previous grant was such a big deal at $300,000, given the amount of volunteer hours and work that they put into our cultural heritage, not to mention what they do to help erode racism and prompt tolerance and understanding in our society. I was at a function a few months ago at which I spoke to several thousand people, and I wore the outfit I'm wearing today. It's a sari.

I assured these people that I would take their concern to the Legislature and that I would wear this outfit today as a reminder to the minister that while there are not a lot of visible ethnic minorities represented in this Assembly, they're out there, Mr. Chairman. They suffer a fair amount of discrimination. They work very hard in a very constructive sense to overcome that, and what do they get for it? An 83 per­ cent cut in their funding. The problem, in short, with this budget is that it indicates what's going to happen next year, Mr. Chairman.

You know how the Conservatives -- they promise everything just before an election, they start retreating immediately after the election, and then the year following they cut and axe like the Texas chain saw massacrer itself. I think that's a sign of what's to come as a result of these estimates. I see running away from any commit­ ment, a lack of co-ordination, a total absence of the cultural pol­ icy which has been promised for years and not delivered on.

I would advise the minister that since the establishment of the New Democratic Party of Alberta arts advisory committee, every year we've sponsored and approved several motions deal­ ing with the arts, the sum of which to this point alone would constitute a wonderful government arts policy. I'd be glad to forward those to the minister for his consideration, and hope that

446 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 this time next year he comes back with those policies and with the financial support intact, not relying on the lottery slush fund minister. I know my colleague the Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods will love to pick up on the subject of the absence of support for multiculturalism. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member. Please refer to the ministers by their appropriate title or simply as "the minister." There is none of the kind you named earlier. Please. MS BARRETT: Well, that's true. I'll correct that There is no official slush fund minister.

He's the minister responsible for the disbursements of lottery revenues. But in my view that is nothing more than a slush fund, and I will never change my mind on that until this government overturns that disgraceful Bill 10. And now I know that my colleague the Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods will have a few observations to make on the remainder of this part of the budget, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Calgary- McKnight. MRS. GAGNON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also would like to congratulate the minister on his appointment.

I have always been extremely proud of our dynamic and unique culture. As Albertans we must be proud of all of our artists, writers, and performers, who are among the best in the world. Their talent and dedication is capable of enriching the lives of all Albertans and allows them to escape the pressures of modern-day living. Through the arts people are given the op­ portunity to explore new ideas and to probe the meaning behind human existence.

Being aware of the important role that culture plays in the lives of Albertans, I was pleased to see the government's strong support for the development and preservation of historical facilities. Although the increased funding to these areas is com­ mendable, it falls far short in other areas of what is required to address the needs of Alberta's culture. One can only wonder at the reasoning used to justify cuts of more than 56 percent to the areas of music and dance and cuts of over 42 percent to the ar­ eas of theatre. Overall, the performing arts have been hit with cuts of almost 30 percent.

The minister must indicate what reduction in the services this will cause. If arts are the life and soul of our society, how can this government justify such devastating reductions in funding? Albertans have evolved as a society to the point where cultural and performing life is not peripheral. It is a vital component of a quality life. I believe that the members opposite in supporting this type of budget have exposed a philosophical bent which seems to say that culture is peripheral. I'd like to praise the budget just in a few areas.

I admire the strong support for the Historical Facility Development vote, which is up 213 percent, and I also applaud the support for the preservation of historical sites, up 23 percent. As I said earlier, I am not the least bit ready to compliment the minister on the cuts of almost 30 percent in the areas of music and dance and theatre. In the area of film and literary arts, there are cuts of almost 6.3 percent, and financial assistance to individuals and institu­ tions is cut almost 20 percent.

While the minister praises the efforts in library services, what I have seen are cuts of 43.9 per­ cent to the Alberta Library Board, cuts of 4.6 percent to work­ shops and development, and an increase in library services of only 4.6 percent. In the area of historical resource development, we saw only a minimal increase of a half percentage for heritage preservation grants, as well as a drop of 9 percent in funding for the Glenbow-Alberta museum. I would like to expand on some of these by addressing the underlying issues.

Overall, the major concern within the area of culture is the lack of a long-term financial commitment. In the February 17 budget speech, the government spoke about initia­ tives using lottery revenue to provide more financial security for our professional performing arts organizations. This initiative amounted to $4.7 million in special grants for the 43 profes­ sional organizations across the country. This was to reduce their deficits. Also, a further $4.35 million was allocated in operating support to the eight largest professional groups.

While this is commendable, it does not even begin to address the long-term needs of cultural groups. The department should not be ex­ pected to survive on lottery funds which they may or may not receive. Is it not time to assure funding from the provincial pub­ lic tax base in the area of the arts? At the same time as the announcement of the above lottery grants was made, the minister of the day, the hon. Greg Stevens, stated that the province will also be proposing ways to make our professional performing arts groups self-sustaining. There is no action yet.

In a sense, that is something I'm happy about, be­ cause even in Europe, which has had a strong cultural compo­ nent for centuries, the arts have never been self-sustaining, and I do not believe we should ever expect that the arts can be self- sustaining. It is an undesirable and unattainable goal. Also in the budget speech is a reference to volunteers and the important role they play in Alberta's arts community, and the minister has referred to that. I also applaud the volunteers, and we all owe a great deal of gratitude to volunteers.

However, while the role of volunteers is vital, the arts community should not have to rely so heavily on unpaid, nonprofessional labour. In a study done in 1988 by the former president of the Writers' Union of Canada, it was stated that professional free-lance writ­ ers in Alberta earned a median net income of only $2,700 for their writing.

This report also contained numerous recommen­ dations, including the creation of a separate films and art foun­ dation, the appointment of at least three practicing writers to the 11-member Alberta Foundation for the Literary Arts board, and a bigger budget, at least $635,000, for the library arts branch. The minister talked about culture becoming an industry and how thrilled he was with that. This is certainly nothing new. I believe that in Alberta culture has been an economic benefit and a most vital industry for a long time.

It is interesting to note, however, that while Alberta is becoming a very popular film location for Out-of-province and international filmmakers, our own filmmakers' funding has been cut. Here is an economic benefit that is obvious, and yet our filmmakers have been cut. Despite the fact that Alberta libraries have been plagued with inadequate funding, the Alberta government actually cut funding to the Alberta Library Board by almost 44 percent. Overall li­ brary services, as I said earlier, have increased by only .7 per­ cent.

As more people utilize library services, libraries will either be forced to limit the types of available material or begin to impose user fees. I know that in Calgary, when even mem­ bership cards were increased ever so slightly, the usage rate in the Calgary public libraries went down. I think it is something

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 447 we have to watch very closely, since Albertans are very, very well educated and really have a strong commitment to reading and to the library boards. As I said earlier, at a time when the government is cutting funding to performing, film, and literary arts, how can they jus­ tify this steady funding for film . . . I'm sorry; I didn't say this earlier. I can't read that far without my glasses. You'll have to excuse me if I hold my paper up. Brand new point Sorry about that.

At a time when the government is cutting funding to the performing, film, and literary arts, I would like the minister to answer and to justify the steady funding for film censorship, which was receiving $216,805. I would like to know more about the censorship board, what it is doing, why its budget has gone up 9.1 percent. Are they viewing more films? Has the membership increased? Why this increase? Those are some of the points I wanted to make, Mr. Chair­ man, and I would like some answers to my questions.

In our caucus we have also divided the responsibility so that the Mem­ ber for Edmonton-Whitemud will be speaking later on to the multicultural aspect of this budget. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Before recognizing the Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods, I feel that I must refer the last speaker and all hon. members to citation 473 in Beauchesne. I think that intervention on my behalf was almost invited in the recent remark, so if you'd please do so. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. MR. GIBEAULT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of comments on the multicultural side of this particular depart­ ment.

If we look at vote 4 in particular, I frankly have to hang my head in shame at the lack of commitment this government is showing to multiculturalism. We've got a budget in vote 4 of $1.3 million, which is a cut of 15 percent over the previous year, which suffered another 10 percent cut that year. If we look at it, a measly $1.3 million out of a departmental budget of $47 mil­ lion is barely 2 percent. I think it really sends a clear message to the ethnocultural communities of this province that this govern­ ment is no longer committed to multiculturalism. They're just not prepared to provide the resources there.

In terms of the grant item of 4.3, institutional grants are eliminated altogether, and there's no change in special project grants. It really does seem to me curious that we're allocating out of this measly amount of $1.3 million, $1 million for administration. Now, this is a government that likes to pride itself on efficiency, and I don't see what's efficient about spending $1 million on ad­ ministration for a budget of $1.3 million. Sounds rather inefficient.

I'd like to get the minister's comments on that, and maybe he might also tell us just what funds are available through the lot­ tery revenues for multicultural activity. Now, I understand there are some, but again this is an example of why we fought this Bill that the government introduced last year, because all those revenues are simply not accountable to us as members of this Assembly and they're not listed in the budget as they should be.

So I'd reiterate the comments of my colleague from Edmonton- Highlands, who said that this minister really ought to go to bat for the communities his department is supposed to be advocat­ ing for and get a proper budget allocation and not something as measly and disgraceful as he submitted to us here, with lottery funds making up the balance which none of us have before us for evaluation. Having said that, there are a couple of other things that really relate to the general area of multiculturalism that have to be mentioned. We don't see in here, Mr.

Chairman, any response to many of the recommendations that were put forward to the hearings he referred to earlier -- Inter Change '88 -- to the Al­ berta Multicultural Commission. That was last year, in the fall of 1988. Six months later we still have nothing except foot- dragging and stalling. We've had some comments that this re­ port will be coming out soon. Well, we've heard that now a couple of times and we're still waiting. Hopefully, it won't be a whole lot longer. But there are a couple of things I think we've got to get on the record here, Mr.

Chairman, and I wonder whether or not this minister and his government are really committed to many of the important concepts that are involved here in multicul­ turalism. First of all, I want to talk about a number of important things. I guess one of the things that are of the view of many ethnocultural communities is that the Minister of Culture and Multiculturalism and the chairman of the Alberta Multicul­ turalism Commission are people they could count on to stand up for them and to advocate for them, particularly when they're being publicly attacked. Mr.

Chairman, I want to refer specifi­ cally to the Sikh community that has been the subject of sub­ stantial criticism and attack by ignorant people in this province, and we have yet to have the minister or the chairman of this commission publicly make a statement in defence of that com­ munity. I put the challenge to them this afternoon to do exactly that. We also have, Mr. Chairman, some support from this gov­ ernment for the Edmonton heritage festival.

Now, it's an excel­ lent opportunity for people throughout the province to be ex­ posed to the ethnocultural richness that makes up our society, and yet again the Sikh community has been denied an opportu­ nity for three years running to participate in the Edmonton heri­ tage festival activities. I would like to ask the minister if he would be prepared to raise this matter with the festival associa­ tion board and see if some resolution to this very unfortunate and unfair situation might not be realized. Mr.

Chairman, there are a number of other important issues in this whole area of multiculturalism that we've got to talk about here. We just saw again recently a number of examples of problems that are faced by new immigrants, particularly refugees. One of the problems they have, of course, is that un­ der Alberta's provisions of legislation, they're not eligible to participate and be covered under the health care plan -- very dif­ ferent from other provinces. So we have many new immigrants, particularly refugees, who are simply not in a position to have health care for their families.

Now, if we're committed to multi­ culturalism, we can't allow that kind of shameful situation to exist. I want the minister to respond to that: if he's had any discussions with his colleague the Minister of Health and the Treasurer to see whether or not there's going to be some change in this government's attitude regarding health care coverage for refugees. Another area I want to raise, Mr. Chairman, is the area I'm sure the minister must be aware of, and that is the question of tax relief for ethnocultural organizations in the municipalities of this province.

The New Democrats have proposed just such measures time and time again, and yet we have not had any ac­ tion from this provincial government Many ethnocultural or­ ganizations have made that plea to the government for some sort

448 ALBERTA HANSARD June 21, 1989 of tax relief. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to read from a let­ ter, dated May 3, 1988, to this government. This letter says: The city of Calgary . . . requests that the Provincial Govern­ ment assess the feasibility of developing a Province-wide, provincially supported program to assist various non-profit organizations with the payment of their Municipal and School property taxes. The city of Calgary wishes to reiterate that neither the Municipality nor the Local School Boards can sus­ tain any further erosion of the tax base.

That was signed by the former mayor of Calgary, Mr. Ralph Klein. He's now in the government, and I wonder how come he still doesn't seem to be having too much influence with this government. Maybe the minister of multiculturalism can ex­ plain that for all of us. Mr. Chairman, a number of very, very crucial submissions were made to the Inter Change '88 hearing process, and because of all the foot-dragging here that we've got on the part of the minister and his commission, we don't know whether they're going to respond to any of them.

But I'd like to specifically ask whether or not he's prepared to take some action on the recom­ mendations of several of the more prominent submissions that were made to the commission and consequently to his govern­ ment. Maybe the chairman of the commission can respond to these questions, Mr. Chairman. The Alberta Association for Multicultural Education in­ dicated that: The Commission on Tolerance and Understanding held hear­ ings throughout the province in 1984 which resulted in a series of albeit not yet realized recommendations for education. We had that task force in 1984.

Many of those recommenda­ tions were not realized. I think there's getting to be a cynical feeling in this province among many ethnocultural communities that this Inter Change '88 process may be just about the same: you know, some window dressing, an opportunity to get people to put things on the record, yet it becomes another report which gathers dust. I'm hopeful this minister is not going to allow that to happen with this new report, but we have yet to get any assur­ ance of exactly that to be the case.

The Alberta Association for Multicultural Education goes on to say: Included in the 1984 documents were recommendations for the Department of Education which, had they been acted upon, would have led to sharing of the expertise of the two Depart­ ments in the development of learning resources for schools. And they continue, Mr.

Chairman, only briefly here: Completely lacking are provincial policies and opportunities for networking which would enable educational and social initiatives to direct their efforts towards common goals, to coordinate their activities and to be assured of reasonable sup­ port in working towards these common goals. Now, Mr. Chairman, another group, the Northern Alberta Heritage Language Association. This government wants to have us believe that they're committed to heritage language support. Where is it in the budget, Mr. Minister?

I don't see any increase to support the recommendation that was made by the Northern Alberta Heritage Language Association. In fact, they said, and I quote from their report: We have submitted numerous reports and resolutions to the Alberta Government; the majority of our past recommenda­ tions remain outstanding. How do you expect people in this province, Mr. Chairman, to this minister, to believe this government is sincere when we seem to have so little response to repeated recommendations and submissions? Then we had the multicultural communications foundation.

They said on page 7 of their submission: The present legislation is not adequate in as much as it does not provide direction to create a framework for equality and fair­ ness for all. Mr. Chairman, there are many, many reports that went be­ fore that commission hearing, and we're looking forward to see whether or not this government listened. We don't seem to have too much indication from the minister or the chairman that they have, and the budget most certainly shows they haven't. The Chinese community, through a coalition of organiza­ tions, made a submission as well.

One of the things they said was: The membership of the Commission grossly ignored the ethnic mosaic of Alberta. The purely Caucasian composition of the Commission conveys a false impression that there will be a European bias on the field of multiculturalism. This false im­ pression would only undermine what the Commission plans to achieve. Then, of course, Mr. Chairman, we had the Edmonton Multicul­ tural Society. What did they have to say?

They said that the size and the composition of the commission must be changed to make it more representative of the cultural and ethnic and racial diversity of the province, the same as the Chinese community, and they went on to make a number of other recommendations. That particular one on the composition of the commission was also supported by a coalition of black organizations, who criticize the commission for exactly that. But they also, along with many other organizations, including many from visible mi­ nority communities . . .

In the black communities' submission entitled A Brief to the Alberta Multicultural Commission, their first recommendation, Mr. Chairman, was for employment equity. I haven't heard that phrase used by this minister. In fact, I think he's probably against employment equity; I've heard reports to that effect. I'd like him to stand in this Assem­ bly and tell us: is he ideologically opposed to fairness in the workplace for all Albertans or isn't he? If he's not, then what kind of programs is he going to be introducing to bring some realization of the aspirations of many of our visible minority communities?

I just want to read briefly here from the recommendation of the black coalitions, who submitted on December 29 that brief to the commission. They said: The Commission should play a major role in encouraging pri­ vate enterprise and all levels of government to adopt Employ­ ment Equity. This policy advocates the hiring of disad­ vantaged groups in proportion to their numbers in the general population. Sounds fair, doesn't it, Mr. Chairman?

They go on to say: We feel that Employment Equity is essential in order to combat the racial discrimination which has led to a general under- representation of Blacks in the workplace. They go on to say, Mr. Chairman: Since hiring under Employment Equity would be based on employees' skills and qualifications, there should be no lower­ ing of job performance standards. Employment Equity there­ fore represents a very practical step toward ensuring that Al­ bertans, regardless of race, have equality of job opportunities.

I want to ask the minister and the chairman of the commission: do they support that or don't they? A lot of Albertans want to know. Mr. Chairman, this whole area of affirmative action and em­ ployment equity is one that increasingly must get some attention from this government if he wants to convey with any sincerity to the ethnocultural communities of this province . . .

June 21, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 449 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member. I've been listening carefully, and the Human Rights Commission estimates are dealt with under the Department of Labour and the minister therefore responsible. So could you perhaps clearly relate your remarks to these estimates, because I think you're drifting over a bit into another minister's responsibility. MR. GIBEAULT: With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, this is a brief to the Alberta Multicultural Commission hearings, not the Human Rights Commission.

Now, let me just carry on with that concept that's particu­ larly important to so many Albertans here. We seem to have no commitment here from the minister that's involved, but we do have some initiatives from other levels of government. I'd like the minister to stand here and tell us why it is that he can't seem to get any commitment from his colleagues and this government for this particular concept that would increase fairness in the workplace for all multicultural communities in the province. There's no action at the provincial level.

We've got a federal Employment Equity Act; there's some action at the federal level. We've got some action from some municipalities, includ­ ing the city of Calgary which has done an assessment of its par­ ticular work force in this regard. Their recommendation would be, I think, very insightful for the minister and the Chairman here to pay attention to.

What they said in their report to the Calgary city council on May 16 of this year was -- their conclu­ sion is this: There has been no real change in the representation of women, aboriginal people, visible racial minorities, and disabled per­ sons within the civic workforce over the past twenty months. Given that there has been no formalized program of interven­ tion by the City of Calgary, this is not surprising, but remains highly disappointing to the [Work Force Analysis Advisory Committee]. So, Mr.

Chairman, it's clear that we have to have some inter­ vention to ensure that all members of society have equal oppor­ tunity to those jobs that are there in the community. As I said, the city of Calgary has taken some initial moves in that direc­ tion, but it's clear on their experience that you need a program of affirmative action if you're going to achieve results. MR. GESELL: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. This is not related to cultural or multiculturalism. I do not find a relationship here at all. It's related to the work force. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please proceed, hon. member. MR. GIBEAULT: Mr.

Chairman, maybe it's because this com­ mission has been six months behind in getting its