Manitoba Hansard — 8 April 2014 (Sitting 39B, 40th Legislature, 3rd Session)

40-3-39b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXVI No. 39B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, April 8, 2014 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James, Hon. Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon, Hon. Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna, Hon. Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon.

Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MELNICK, Christine Riel Ind. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC

1661 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 8, 2014 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Speaker: Introduction of bills? PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: Seeing none, we'll move on to petitions. Provincial Sales Tax Increase– Reversal and Referendum Rights Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The Balanced Budget, Fiscal Management and Taxpayer Accountability Act is a law that guarantees Manitobans the right to vote in a referendum to either approve or reject increases to the PST and other taxes.

(2) Despite the fact that the right to vote is enshrined in this legislation, the provincial government hiked the P ST to 8 per cent as of July 1st, 2013.

(3) The Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba has asked the courts to rule on whether or not the government broke the law failing to address the referendum requirement before imposing the PST tax increase on Manitoban families. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to reverse the PST increase. To urge the pr ovincial government to restore the right of Manitobans to vote in a referendum on increases to the PST. And this petition is signed by D. Patterson, B. Wiens, J. Wiebe and many other fine Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker: In keeping with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Beausejour District Hospital– Weekend and Holiday Physician Availability Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The Beausejour District Hospital is a 30 -bed, acute-care facility that serves the communities of Beausejour and Brokenhead.

(2) The hospital and the primary-care centre have had no doctor available on weekends and holidays for many months, jeopardizing the health and livelihoods of those in the northeast region of the Interlake-Eastern Regional Health Authority.

(3) During the 2011 election, the provincial government promised to provide every Manitoban with access to a family doctor by 2015.

(4) This promise is far from being realized, and Manitobans are witnessing many emergency rooms limiting services or closing temporarily, with the majority of these reductions taking place in rural Manitoba.

(5) According to the Health Council of Canada, only 25 per cent of doctors in Manitoba reported that their patients had access to care on evenings and weekends. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government and the Minister of Health to ensure that the Beausejour District Hospital and primary -care centre have a primary-care physician available on weekends and holidays to better provide area residents with this essential service. This petition is signed by M. Stobert, M. Kaatz, P. Zanewich and many, many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker.

Government Services Offices Closures– Public Consultations Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

1662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 And this is the background to this petition: Since April 1st, 2012, the provincial government has closed at least 20 government services offices in communities throughout Manitoba. The closures of these offices create job losses and reduce economic activit y within the community and decrease the accessibility and quality of services for local citizens. The provincial government did not consult the communities impacted by these office closures before deciding to close, merge or consolidate the offices.

These office closures unnecessarily increase the financial cost and time commitment required by citizens to access government services that were previously offered in their community. Manitobans have a right to access provincial programs and services in a timel y manner within a reasonable distance from their community regardless of their location.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the provincial government restore the services provided to the affected communities until the provincial government conducts public consultations and provides an alternative solution that maintains or increases the level of service provided in the local area. This petition is signed by M. Snedden, L. Morrell, M. Nicholson and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Any further petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): I'd like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review of the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and Conservation and Water Stewardship. Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Manitoba Justice Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2014- 2015 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Hon. James Allum (Minister of Education and Advanced Learning): I'd like to table The Public Schools Finance Board Annual Report the year ending June 30, 2013. Mr.

Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Ministerial statements? Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Seeing none, prior to oral questions I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Dr. Alan and Judy Lagimodiere and Donna Wilson, who are the guests of the honourable Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Ashton). And also seated in the public gallery we have from Réal -Bérard community school 14 grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Brian Martel. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr.

Graydon). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome all of you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Pediatric Cardiac Surgery Program Apology Request–Minister of Health Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Almost two weeks ago the Minister of Health (Ms. Selby) opened up old wounds for families who tragically lost their babies. She accused members of this side of the House of wilfully allowing babies to die. And yesterday when this minister was asked repeatedly to apologize to these families, she refused, and the Premier accepted her answers in this House.

He even clapped for them, endorsing the behaviour of this minister. The Premier should have shown some leadership on this issue and demand that his minister apologize immediately for her egregious comments. Why didn't he do that? Why did he allow her to play politics with the deaths of these babies? Hon. Greg Selinger (Prem ier): As we know, the tragic death in the pediatric situation at the Health Sciences Centre was one that everybody in this House regrets happened and sorry it occurred–sorry that it occurred. And, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the current Minister of Health is very committed to proper health care for Manitobans and the safety of all Manitobans in the health-care system, and I know –and I know–that she spends all of her waking hours making sure that our health-care system provides those essential services

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1663 to Manitobans, including proper and adequate funding through our budgets. Mr. Speaker, the critical incident legislation that this government brought forward was in part –large part–inspired by this tragedy and motivated by this tragedy to change the culture in t he health-care system to a culture where these incidents are properly investigated, corrective measures are taken so that these incidents won't occur again.

Any time a horrible tragedy like this occurs, we want to make sure that there is an outcome of that that will prevent it from happening from anybody in the future. And I know this Minister of Health (Ms. Selby) operates with integrity and I know this Minister of Health always will try to do the right thing for Manitobans and any Manitoban that is involved and engaged in the health-care system. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health should have apologized immediately to the families who tragically lost their loved ones, but she refused.

In fact, nearly two weeks later she's still refusing to apologize. And the Premier seems to think that that's okay. Well, I don't think that's okay and members on this side of the House don't think that that's okay. Mr. Speaker, why did he not demand that she apologize immediately to those families for her outrageous comments? Mr. Selinger: I heard the minister yesterday express her profound regret and her –the fact that she was sorry that any family had to go through a tragedy like this in Manitoba or, indeed, anywhere.

I heard the minister express her feelings about what it's like to have a member of her family with a child in a similar situation where the outcome was much more positive. * (13:40) And, Mr.

Speaker, I heard us discuss yesterday how this government brought in the first legislation in the history of this province to report critical incidents so that we can get to the bottom of anything that occurs, any malpractice that occurs, particularly a malpractice that results in the loss of life, particularly a malpractice that results in the loss of life of an infant, that this legislation was brought in to make sure that we change the way the health-care system operates to a system where things are investigated, where corrective measures are taken and measures are put in place to prevent these incidents from happening in the future.

That's what was done by this government. The minister supports that. The minister is operating with every ounce of her energy to make sure that these things don't happen in the future, and this government has been very committed through a period where we've had continuous demands for cuts to ensuring that there's proper financing for health care in Manitoba. Mrs. Stefanson: Almost two weeks later and still no action has been demanded by this Premier for the egregious comments made by the Minister of Health. There is a culture under this NDP Premier of a government that doesn't seem to care who they hurt, Mr.

Speaker, as long as they can forward their own political agenda. One word comes to mind, and it's disgusting. Mr. Speaker, the Premier should have shown some leadership two weeks ago and demanded an apology of his minister immediately, but he didn't, and now he continues to endorse her comments. Why has he refused to show leadership and demand that his minister apologize immediately for playing politics with the tragic deaths of these babies? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, this–when this tragedy occurred, there were several years where the opportunity to change the culture in the health- care system was available to members opposite when they were in government and they had an opportunity to do something about that.

Immediately upon us having the opportunity to and the privilege of serving the people of Manitoba, our Health minister of the day moved on legislation to put critical incident legislation in place, and that legislation has provided us with the legal tools and the cultural change in the health -care system where matters like this are proper ly reviewed and investigated. The minister expressed her profound regret yesterday and the fact that she was sorry that this tragedy occurred to anybody in Manitoba, particularly a child in the health-care system. I know the minister operates with in tegrity.

I know the minister will do whatever she can to ensure that nobody is hurt as the result of the kinds of debates we have in the legislation and that, in fact, we use our time in this Legislature to make the quality of life better for Manitobans, t o make life

1664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 safer for Manitobans, to make life safer for anybody that engages in the health -care system, because they go to the health -care system for life -saving support, and that's what we want the health-care system for. Pediatric Cardiac Surgery Program Apology Request–Minister of Health Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, it was offensive when this NDP Minister of Health accused us of wilfully allowing babies to die.

It was more shocking and appalling yesterday when this Minister of Healt h refused to apologize to the families for tearing opened a 20-year-old painful wound. So I'm going to ask the Minister of Health and give her one more chance today: Will she stand in her place in this House and apologize to those families for doing what she did? Hon. Erin Selby (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, upon reflection, and hearing the words of the family, I can see that my words did hurt them. We must always remember that the words that we choose in this House and when we speak have impact an d those words can hurt.

It is never my intention for these families to relieve –to relive this tragedy, and I am sorry. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, it's disturbing that it's taken the Minister of Health two weeks to come to this realization. It was only because of public pressure that she has stood in this House, and it does not come from an honest feeling in her heart. I would like to ask this Minister of Health: If she's truly ashamed of her own behaviour, why did it take her two weeks to come to that conclusion? Ms. Selby : Mr.

Speaker, I spoke yesterday of the experience that my own family has in this situation and the fact that our family has had a more positive experience. But as a mother, I cannot imagine what other families have faced. I think everyone in this House can agree that what happened to these families should never happen to any parent, to any family. They should never have to deal with it. And I do think that words can hurt and words can cause pain, and we must be very careful when we choose them. But we have always sought to honour these families.

We have always sought to improve our health-care system, to face up to errors, to not hide them, to make sure we learn from them, and I will keep doing that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Driedger: Yesterday when the Minister of Health left this House and sought out Mrs. Feakes, she did not apologize to Mrs. Feakes, the grand - mother of 15-year-old Ashton–15-month-old Ashton. If she was truly sincere about being sorry for her words, she had the chance yesterday to say to Mrs. Feakes, to her face, that she was sorry.

Now she's caught in a two- week hurricane h ere of her own creation, and now because of public pressure she is standing here and saying she's sorry. Mr. Speaker, why did she not, then, apologize to Mrs. Feakes yesterday when Mrs. Feakes was here? Ms. Selby: Mr. Speaker, as I said, I saw the pain that my words caused, and that was never my intention to hurt that family or any family. Things get passionate in here. We debate and sometimes don't always choose our words as carefully. I think it's important that we speak passionately in this House.

We shouldn't be here if we don't believe in the things that we're standing up in. But we do have to remember that those words have impact not just in this room but outside this room, and we need to be aware of that and I am aware of that. I'm aware that we h ave a responsibility to families and I'm aware that our medical system has a responsibility to be responsive to families, and that I will make sure we do. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Non-Residential Construction Manitoba Ranking Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, Statistics Canada today released the figures for value of new building construction in Canada by province, and the data shows that there was more than a 37 per cent decline in the value of new building permits this February over last year and, once again, Manitoba is dead last among Canadian provinces. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister for Jobs and the Economy just admit that her high- tax-and-spend NDP government policies are once again putting Manitoba dead last?

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1665 Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Jobs and the Economy): I thank the member for the question. Certainly we know that viewing reports from Stats Canada month over month are indeed in- structive. I can certainly say to the member, though, when we take a wider view, particularly during a time of economic downturn, I can report to the House, Mr. Speaker, that since 2011 Manitoba's building permits have actually increased by over 41 per cent. I can report to the member that that is the best increase of any province and more than four times the national average. Mrs.

Stefanson: Once again, it must be NDP math. The Minister for Jobs and the Economy should know that non-residential construction is a key factor of a growing economy, yet the report indica tes that the value of non- residential building permits fell by 50 per cent this February over last February. This is not a good sign for the Manitoba economy. Why is this NDP government content with Manitoba once again being dead last? * (13:50) Ms. Oswald: I do take the nature of the question in the context that it is coming from the member, who is in abject denial that there was a global economic downturn.

That being the case, Mr. Speaker, I will say to the member that because of the investments t hat we have made with industry, because of the incredible people that we have here in Manitoba that are continuing to grow their businesses and build their businesses, during that time of economic downturn, best in the nation, increased by over 41 per cent and four times ahead of the national increase of 9.3. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Speaker, it must be boom Tuesday, yes. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's building growth declined more than any other province and hasn't been this low for almost three years.

Yet ag ain, this NDP government has brought Manitoba to the bottom of the barrel in this country. Does the minister not understand that being dead last is not a good thing? In fact, it's harmful for job growth and it is not a good sign for the economy here in Manitoba. Ms. Oswald: Well, Mr. Speaker, what I can tell you would not be a good sign for the economy in Manitoba is to have a group of people that don't believe that there was a global economic downturn. And, Mr. Speaker, I took the member at her word after our discussion in Estimates.

And I spoke to members of the Canadian manufacturing and exporters industry when I attended their awards gala that night, and I put to them the fact that the members opposite don't believe that there was a global recession . And do you know what the head award winner of the event said to me? He said, well, that is absolute Beauchesne. PST Increase Ombudsman's Report Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, it's clear that this NDP government has a real problem with integrity. They claimed before the last election that they weren't thinking about raising taxes, and then they did.

They claimed that they wouldn't raise taxes during the last election, and then they did. Mr. Speaker, they claimed that they weren't contemplating a 9 per cent PST, and the Ombudsman's office makes it clear that they did, even though the Finance Minister denies it. When asked last fall about discussions or documents regarding a 9 per cent PST, the former F inance minister answered, no, that was not something we considered. Mr. Speaker, will the Finance Minister admit today that this is just another in a long line of deceptions perpetrated by this government on Manitobans? Hon.

Jennifer Howard (Minister of Finance): I do want to draw the member's attention to what the Ombudsman's report actually says. What it actually says is that Manitoba Finance has no records of a 9 per cent RST proposal being requested or put forward as part of the budget process. That was the finding of the Ombudsman's report. Now, does that mean that somebody with a calculator was probably able to figure it out and write it down? Yes, probably somebody was able to do that. I probably know how long it would take me to walk to Brandon, but I'm not considering it. Mr. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, this Finance Minister knows that our party filed information requests that show that the NDP sought information about the economic viability of a 9 per cent PST in 2009, 2010, 2011, before the last e lection. When the

1666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 Premier (Mr. Selinger) stood and said that the suggestions that his government were going to raise taxes were nonsense, he was deceiving Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Finance said, well, if the former Finance minister said it wasn't considered, it wasn't considered. But that former Finance minister also said we'd arrive in surplus this year, and we're at a $400-million deficit.

Will the minister admit that in the same way the NDP government has misled Manitobans be fore, they are misleading this House and Manitobans now about the fact that they did contemplate a 9 per cent PST? Ms. Howard: Mr. Speaker, I will say for the member opposite what the Ombudsman's report actually found, and what it actually found is that Manitoba Finance has no records of a 9 per cent PST proposal being requested or put forward as part of the budget process. That was the actual finding.

Now, by his logic, am I to conclude that because they asked for a report by a former Tory Finance minister that recommended an increase to the PST, that recommended harmonization of the PST and GST, that recommended doing away with property tax credits, was that the plan had they been re-elected in 1999? I guess by his logic that was their plan. Mr. Friesen: This minister knows very well that the former Finance minister is saying one thing and the Ombudsman's office is saying something completely different. Mr.

Speaker, instead of doing the hard work of managing your spending, like every other province is endeavouring to do, this spenDP government hikes the provincial sales tax to increase revenues, like no other province is endeavoring to do. An 8 per cent PST cost the average Manitoba family of four more than $1,600 a year. Imagine the effect of a 9 per cent PST on Manitoba families. Manitobans cannot afford this spenDP government's out-of-control spending and they won't tolerate this NDP's tax-and-spend-and-lie policies.

When will the minister just admit that the 9 per cent PST is a hidden agenda and sh e's going to get it done? Ms. Howard: Well, it's so well hidden I don't even know that it exists. That's how well hidden it is. But, yes, I could–you know, it's not the Da Vinci code to figure out what 1 point of the PST –I could take him through how you figure that out if that's what he wants. The fact that somebody did a calculation is not the same as considering to make a decision about something.

The decision we made was to raise the PST by 1 cent on the dollar in order to invest in critical infrastructure while we protected the front -line services that Manitobans count on. That is a different decision than they put forward to cut half a billion dollars out of the budget when the recession hit, which would have laid off people and caused pain to Manitoba families. That was their solution at the time; that is their solution today; that will be their solution tomorrow. PST Increase Low-Income Manitobans Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, those on limited and fixed incomes are the most vulnerable in our society. Every time costs go up for them, there's a crisis to try and find the money to make sure they and their families have basic necessities, food, shelter and clothes. The 14 per cent increase to the PST from 7 to 8 per cent hurt bad enough, but now we know that the NDP considered raising even further to 9 per cent. Where does the minister suggest that those on limited and fixed incomes look for the money to pay for the increase? Hon.

Jennifer Howard (Minister of Finance): Well, I think the member for Portage la Prairie is actually better than this line of questioning, and I'm sorry that he's taken a lesson from his front bench that if you just say a mistruth over and over again eventually maybe people will believe you. But the reality is that we took a decision to raise the PST in order to protect the services that vulnerable people rely on. And what's more, Mr.

Speaker, when that member had the opportunity to stand in his place and support a budget that puts a historic amount of money in the hands of vulnerable people so they can afford better places to live, he sat down. He did not stand up for people in those –in that moment. So it is a bit rich now for him to claim to be on the side of vulnerable Manitobans, because when he had his chance he abandoned them.

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1667 Government Policies Low-Income Manitobans Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, the working poor in this province struggle to make ends meet, working hard every day to survive and provide opportunities for their children that they themselves probably never had, yet this government continues to reach into their pockets in order to feed the NDP's spending machine instead of letting those on limited incomes feed their children. On top of this, the government continues to add debt that these children will have to pay off sometime in the future.

Is there no limit to this spenDP government desire to tax the working poor? Hon. Jennifer Howard (Minister of Finance): This government, Mr. Speaker, has raised the minimum wage every year it has been in office. When we came into office, the minimum wage was worth less at that time than it had been in the previous 20 years. People's ability to buy the things they needed with money they earned had been eroded because of that party's unwillingness to raise the minimum wage. And even today they would not commit to increasing the minimum wage. When they've had their chance, they've spoken against it.

And one of their most recent recruits made a career out of opposing every increase to the minimum wage that this government came in. So we'll take no lessons from members opposite about how to make sure that people who work hard for their money get a fair paycheque at the end of the day. Mr. Wishart: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans know that this NDP government is always in a rush to raise taxes, like the PST. [interjection] You are. But then programs like the EIA Rent Assist have to be phased in over years and years. Where's the rush to increase the housing allowance? * (14:00) Mr.

Speaker, does this NDP government expect those on limited and fixed incomes to survive and thrive? They know they can't take an NDP promise to the bank. Ms. Howard: Mr. Speaker, in this budget there is additional money to support people who need help to afford better places to live. In this budget there is money to build better places to live for people. In this budget there is money to support people who may have never had a job go to school, get training and get a good job. That's what was in this budget.

That's what the members opposite voted against, so I will hear nothing from them now about them being on the side of vulnerable Manitobans. When they had their chance, they sat down and they abandoned those people, just the way they abandoned them the last time they had their hands on the rudder. Member for Elmwood Newspaper Advertisement Mr. Ron Schuler ( St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I have a document to table for this House. Mr. Speaker, MLAs publish photos communi - cating with constituents as an MLA a ll the time. The member for Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway) has taken a new slant on this practice by publishing a photo in a local paper with constituents as, and I quote, MP Elmwood-Transcona. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, does it say MLA. So my question to the government: Is the member for Elmwood an MLA or is he now masquerading as an MP? Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, isn't it a positive thing to have MLAs, including everyone on this side of the House, out actually knocking on doors, communicating with constituents?

I'd suggest the member for Springfield and the members opposite, perhaps they should give it a try as well. Mr. Schuler: The only thing is, when the member for Elmwood goes door to door, people don't know, is he coming as an MLA or an MP? Mr. Speaker, in the photo advertisement of the NDP member for Elmwood, where he masquerades as an MP, nowhere does it say who paid for the ad. So the question is: Was it the Manitoba Legislative Assembly, was it the provincial NDP, was it the federal NDP, or was it some other entity?

Besides not mentioning that the member for Elmwood is an MLA, it neglects to mention who paid for the ad. So the question is very simple: Who paid for the ad? Mr. Swan: Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud to be on this side of the House where MLAs actually believe it's important to be out in their communities –out in their communities–speaking to people, getting their advice and being able to be a better government as a result.

1668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 And I know members opposite, boy, when the House isn't sitting, the members opposite, they're running to the plane to get out of the province because the last thing they want to do is hang around in Manitoba and actually listen to people. They're back now; most of them are back now. That's good. But what's r eally important, Mr. Speaker, is I'm proud to be in a party which believes in communicating with people each and every day and being out on those doorsteps communicating with people and hearing what they have to say. Mr. Schuler: Well, Mr.

Speaker, yes, they're communicating, but as members of Parliament. And I understand from the latest polls why they might want to do that. The MLA for Elmwood, who now masquerades as an MP, used a photo taken at an official government function. As nowhere does it stat e that he is an MLA, but rather as an MP, was any provincial government or any provincial legislative staff or any provincial legislative resource used to take the photo of the NDP MLA for Elmwood who is in the photo masquerading as an MP? Mr.

Swan : Now, t here's many people in the province of Manitoba that wish they had an MP that actually stood up for Manitobans. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, we had a debate in this House on immigration, and not only did every Conservative MLA sit on their hands and refuse to support immigrant services in Manitoba, the call they made for outreach was to call Conservative MPs to come into this House to try and intimidate individuals in this House. And just this morning, Mr. Speaker, we had a key debate on protecting veter an services in the province of Manitoba, brought by the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Caldwell), and, unfortunately, the member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer) decided to get up to make this a partisan political issue, to stand up for Stephen Harper instead of standing up for the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights. [interjection] Order, please. The honourable member for River Heights has the floor. Employment Numbers Participation Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Premier, sadly, was living in an imaginary world when he said the number of people working in Manitoba is at an historic high.

Next he'll be saying his popularity is at an historic high. Mr. Speaker, employment in Manitoba has been falling for the last eight months. The Labour Force Survey shows a real employment loss of about 20,000 jobs for Manitobans since July. As far back as June 2010, there was a higher unemployment than March of this year. The Premier is not being realist ic about where Manitoba is. Will the Premier acknowledge his error from yesterday and acknowledge that his present strategy is not working? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have the third lowest unemployment rate in Canada; that is a very significant accomplishment. Over the past five years, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba average economic growth was second best in Canada, ahead of Saskatchewan and only behind Alberta, second best average growth over the last five years, 25,000 jobs created in the pri vate sector since the '08 -09 recession, a program that moves us forward with steady economic growth and good jobs for the future of Manitoba, good jobs for young people in Manitoba. Just this morning, Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of being in Steinbach, Manitoba.

And in Steinbach, Manitoba, we partnered with the mayor and council on a $6.9- million infrastructure project which will create good jobs, safer streets, safer roads in Steinbach, Manitoba, a good announcement for that part of Manitoba, a good a nnouncement for all of Manitoba, a $6-billion lift–a $6-billion lift. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, we're talking about today's employment. Mr. Speaker, y esterday the Premier mentioned the participation rate.

Did the Premier not realize that the participation rate has fallen considerably from March 2013 to today, enough that almost 14,000 Manitobans have practically given up looking for work in this province? They are discouraged about job prospects because the job situation is not good, as the Canadian Fede ration of Independent Business and many businesses know. With falling

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1669 employment levels and decreasing participation rate, the situation in Manitoba is worrisome. I ask: What is the Premier's plan to increase the low employment and low participation rate we have today in Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I commend the member opposite to read The Five -Year Plan to Build a Stronger Manitoba, copies available to ev erybody in the Legislature. That five -year plan has very significant employment growth in Manitoba, 58,900 jobs over the next five years. For every dollar invested in infrastructure, $1.16 of return, Mr.

Speaker, a $6.3-billion growth in the Manitoba e conomy. New housing starts, 2,100, and the opportunity for businesses to acquire $1.4 billion of new equipment and assets in the province of Manitoba. Jobs, assets, economic growth, more training, more opportunities in Manitoba, and the only lamentable part, Mr. Speaker, the member asking the question voted against it. Manitoba Hydro Office Closures Impact on Employees Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, and how many layoffs? Mr.

Speaker, when the Premier brought his hydro strategy into his illusion of historic employment grandeur yesterday, he failed to mention that the effect of shutting down 24 Hydro offices will have on Manitobans. Beyond power restoration delays, there are 94 Hydro employees in rural Manitoba who will be left with the option of relocating or being laid off. Saying no one is slated for termination is not exactly reassuring when you have to consider relocating your whole family to stay employed.

What would the Premier like to tell these 94 Manitobans and their families about how this government's hydro strategy will affect them? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I've actually had the opportunity to talk to the working people of Manitoba Hydro, and there are about 700 more linemen in Manitoba since we've come into office, 700 more linemen in Manitoba. * (14:10) Mr.

Speaker, we've made it clear there will be– as Manitoba Hydro is dealing with demands by the Public Utilities Board to be more efficient–Public Utilities Board made recommendations to be more efficient–Manitoba Hydro looked at how they could be more efficient without any additional layoffs. And in the budget, which the member voted against, we are going to make linemen a real trade in Manitoba, a certifiable Red Seal trade in Manitoba. Good jobs, good skills, good qualifications, good opportunities to grow in the future of Manitoba.

As we build out Manitoba Hydro, there will be multi-billion dollar investments to allow us to have clean energy in this province, to export energy to our customers to the south of us, east and west of us. And those exports will pay down the cost of our new dams and keep the Manitoba economy one of the most competitive in North America. Steinbach and Ste. Anne Highway Funding Announcement Mr. Dave Gaudreau (St. Norbert): Yes, Mr. Speaker, last year before the budget, in pet ition after petition from the opposition, they demanded more spending on infrastructure, actually, equivalent to about 1 per cent of the PST.

On this side of the House we're committed to steady economic growth and good jobs. And I'm sure that the membe r for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) would never ask about important investments in his community, so I'd like to ask the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation if he could update the House on how the $5.5- billion infrastructure plan will help improve trade and travel in southeast Manitoba and in Steinbach. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation ): Mr. Speaker, it's spring in Manitoba.

There's an optimistic mood in the air, and actually nowhere was there more optimism than we saw this morning in Steinbach and Ste. Anne where I joined with the Premier, the member for Dawson Trail (Mr. Lemieux) to announce highway improvements in Steinbach, $7 million partnering with Mayor Goertzen. They do have a good Goertzen there, the Mayor Goertzen. And I want to say that we also joined in Ste. Anne for $28 million investment in Highway 12 and 302. It was worth a trip today because we saw the steady growth and the good jobs in this province. We see it. We're part of it. We're investing in the future.

I only hope the member for Steinbach and members opposite will get with us, get on the plan, because we have a plan to build this province.

1670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 Flooding

(2011) Crop Insurance Coverage Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, in the aftermath of the 2011 Lake Manitoba flood, thousands of acres were left covered with debris and non-productive. These acres take years to revitalize. The owners of these properties are now being denied crop insurance coverage. They were promised multi-year programs by this government that were quickly forgotten post-election. I ask the Minister of Agriculture: If MASC crop insurance isn't going to cover ongoing crop losses, what other options are available to the flood victims? Hon.

Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development): Without a doubt, 2011 flood has a historical level, 300- year flood of the century, so to speak. And we know the importance of the industry where we are in the cattle industry. To the member's question is that the flood has left situations that our team has continued to work on and monitoring the importance of clearing up some of the debris that has been left behind and putting some of the land back into perspective.

But it's going to take time to work forward to have that back in place, and we continue to work with the landowners for the betterment of the agriculture industry. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, I have documents showing one rancher's crop insurable made of hay acres being cut from 1,086 acres last year to 85 acres this year. And the minister is saying, oh, we're working with them. Well, that sure sounds like it.

The NDP misrepresented flood programs by including crop insurance and ag stab claims, and now they are further penalizing farmers and ranchers by reducing and refusing flooded acre and crop insurance coverage to flood victims. I ask the Minister of Ag: Why are you revictimizing the flood victims? Mr. Kostyshyn : I know the importance of the agriculture to beef industry because I spent 35 years in the beef industry myself. Let's be clear when we talk about the importance of the beef industry.

And to the members opposite, where were they when the community pasture was being somewhat released by the federal government? Where were they when they had to go to their cousins in the federal government and say the importance of the grazing of the community pastures –where was the member opposite coming forward and saying w e do not support the demise of the community pastures? It took this government to invest $1 million towards the importance of the community pastures to sustain the importance of the grazing of the animals.

And we know the challenges that young producers face today, but we felt, this government felt, that community pastures is the most economical way to deal with grazing of cattle industry in– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, it appears not much sunk in in those 35 years on the farm for the minister. He's missing the whole issue here on the crop insurance coverage on these flooded acres. The effects of the 2011 Lake Manitoba flood are long-term; they don't end once the election is over.

Farmers and ranchers were promised that there would be compensation to get their properties back into production. The NDP lied to these farmers and ranchers. They broke their promises. Will the Minister of Agriculture tell the Lake Manitoba producers today what options t hey have to address the costs of full flood recovery? Mr. Kostyshyn: What we have to say today is that this government spent $1.2 billion towards the flood to compensate, and we continue to work on that, Mr. Speaker. We continue to work on that. What we do see is we're being proactive.

We are looking at alternative mechanisms as far as the secondary control structure in Lake Manitoba so we don't have a reoccurrence. Where was that government when they were in power that they did not think ahead of the ' benebit' of the Portage Diversion to Lake Manitoba and having a secondary outlet? What I want to say today to the members opposite, we've been proactive through crop in- surance. We now have forage insurance programs. We do have livestock price insurance. That is the government that sat across from us.

We have excess moisture programs we brought in for 10 years, and when they were in power, it was requested by the producers; they did not entertain it. This government came into power, we brought it in, and today–to this day today, the producers–

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1671 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. The time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: It's time for members' statements. Big Brothers Big Sisters Bowl for Kids Sake Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): It's my pleasure to rise today and congratulate the Big Brothers Big Sisters of Morden -Winkler on an extraordinary Bowl for Kids Sake event just a few weekends ago. This year's event had a record number of bowlers with 212 registered.

An incredible $39,000 was raised through registrations and donations for the local organization's programs. As Canada's leading child and youth mentoring charity, Big Brothers Big Sisters facilitates life -changing rela - tionships that in spire and empower children and youth to reach their potential both as individuals and citizens. Big Brothers of Morden -Winkler has been matching adults with kids from single -parent homes since 1976. The Big Sisters program started in 1984. The In-School Mentoring program began with a few mentors in 2000 and has expanded to six schools.

In the fall of 2005, a teen mentoring program was developed with grade 11 and 12 students mentoring elementary school students. And is it working, Mr. Speaker? Well, the executive director, Michael Penner, tells me that in a school in Winkler there is a boy in grade 3 that's always been in trouble and he visited the principal's office almost daily, and they matched him with a mentor who meets him every day in school for one hour. They play board games and sports, talk about life and have fun, and since that started he has not stepped foot into the principal's office.

This story shows just how much impact one can have on the life of a child even if it is just for a little while each week. Executive Director Michael Penner says 212 took– people took part this year. He says they raised $39,000 in total, and I want to thank Michael and the volunteers for all their hard work and dedication with the kids. With them, these kids have a role model to look up to and a life -changing relationship to make a difference. Thank you. Governor General State Visit to India Mr.

Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Past–just past February this year, I was fortunate to join an important event during the state v isit to India by His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General of Canada. Canada and India have a long -standing rela - tionship that stems from our own strong economic ties and co -operation in the Commonwealth and shared belief in de mocracy and diversity. I'd like to thank Prime Minister Harper for continued building the strategic relationship with India.

During this past visit, the Governor General strengthened that relationship meeting with the heads of state, government officials and business leaders. On behalf of the people of Canada, the Governor General and the Canadian High Commissioner Stewart Beck presented to the people of India an inukshuk. Artists Bill Nasogaluak and Kuzy Curley created an incredible work of art using the armour stone from India and other regions, which has a brilliant purple-red colour. The inukshuk stands 2.5 metres high and symbolizes the bond between the two countries.

At its centre, the artists placed three stones –one from the Inuvialuit region in the western Arctic, one from the Qikiqtaaluk region in the eastern Arctic and a third red stone from India. * (14:20) Traditionally, one of the many purposes for the inukshuk was navigation. The gracefully balanced stone sculpture is installed in the centre of a round- about near the Canadian High Commission in India, guiding traffic towards the important institution. With the arms extended northwest towards Canada, the inukshuk will be a lasting presentation of the connection between both countries.

I extend my sincere thanks to the High Commissioner and his staff for fantastic work. I'd also like to thank the Honourable Deepak Obhrai, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of External Affairs, for his continued efforts in the building the stronger re lations with India and Canada. Our Government of Manitoba has been exactly doing the same, and it is benefitting both sides. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

1672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 All Seniors Care Games– Shaftesbury Park Retirement Residence Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I am honoured to rise in the House today to bring recognition to the All Seniors Care Games events that I attended on February 3rd at the Shaftesbury retirement residence in the Tuxedo constituency. In the spirit of the Olympic Games, the staff and residents at 20 All Seniors Care Retirement Residences across Canada have participated in the All Seniors Care Games for the past five years.

These games are an annual showcase of the healthy, active and dynamic lifestyle that residents enjoy. The games involve a week of friendly competitions, including hallway walking, Wii sports games such as bowling and golf, as well as bocce ball, billiards, shuffleboard and more. I would like to take this opportunity to quote the Manitoba event planner for All Seniors Care, Ronna Goldberg, who is one of the most energetic, enthusiastic individuals I have had the pleasure of meeting.

She states, and I quote: We, All Seniors Care, trace our success of thoughtful programming to the simple and enduring philosophy that aging is a gift. The wealth of knowledge and experience that comes with communities are designed to nurture this gift by providing residents with the innovative programs to maintain health and well -being in body, mind and spirit. End quote. Mr.

Speaker, I sincerely thank the directors and staff at the Shaftesbury retirement residence for once again including me in this inspiring event and to congratulate both of them and the residents –both them and the residents for setting an example of making health and wellness a n integral part of all of our lives. Thank you very much. Outstanding Principal–J. Wayne Marche Mr. Clarence Pettersen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the charitable organization The Learning Partnership recognizes 40 outstanding principals across Canada each year.

I'm delighted to say that this year, Wayne Marche, the principal of Oscar Blackburn School in South Indian Lake, was named one of those outstanding individuals. Born in Newfoundland, Wayne has lived and worked in northern Manitoba for 13 years. Over the course of his time in the North, he has become a leader not just in the schools he serves but also in the community where he lives. He has implemented dozens of programs that have helped countless Manitobans unlock their potential.

Some of these programs include getting better support for special needs students in remote areas, establishing in- dustrial arts programs in several northern schools, 'partning' with business to train the next generation of local employees and implementing many com - munity adult education programs. Wayne has also helped bring the Cree language and local culture into everyday life at Oscar Blackburn School. He has brought local Cree artists into art and woodworking classes and introduced the use of traditional cooking in home economics.

Along with other teachers, Wayne has also put up a social studies unit dedicated to local history. Finally, Oscar Blackburn School now has active Cree speakers make the morning and afternoon announcements. Wayne has also come together with the c hief, band council and other community members to plan the first ever South Indian Lake heritage day, a celebration of traditional culture, heritage and practices. This day will bring together the entire school, parents, grandparents and elders.

They will make the journey across the lake to traditional land where traditional food will be prepared and elders will share their teachings. Mr. Speaker, these are only a few of the dozens of examples of Wayne's contributions to public education. In his own words, educational leadership is about recognizing and nurturing the knowledge, talent and skill you have in the people around you. It is clear why Mr. Marche was named one of Canada's outstanding principals of 2014. Congratulations, Wayne. Your incredible dedi - cation to the communities you serve is extraordinary. Thank you. Acadia Colony Farms–Carberry Mr.

Stuart Briese (Agassiz): I rise today to congratulate Acadia Colony Farms of Carberry for being named the 2012- 13 McCain Foods Champion Potato Grower at the annual McCain Growers' Banquet last fall on November 14th. More than 200 guests gathered to celebrate the top growers and their achievements. Each year, McCain Foods acknowledges and awards growers that have delivered top -quality raw product. There is no higher priority for a food company than the safety of its products. McCain is

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1673 committed to providing its customers with food they can trust to be safe and nutritious. The potato yields more nutritious food more quickly on less land and in harsher clim ates than any other major crop, prompting the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization to state that the potato is on the front line in the fight against world hunger. Approximately 80 per cent of McCain's raw product is supplied by contract farm ers.

McCain shares its research knowledge and expertise with the grower partners to ensure their operations have the least impact on the environment and deliver quality product. Transfer of knowledge and expertise to their 3,200 grower partners has helped them to develop local economies around the world. More than 85 per cent of McCain's products are grown and processed within a short distance of their facilities and sold in the regional markets, reducing food miles and supporting local supplies. Accepting the Champion Grower award was John Jr., Rankin and Isaiah Hofer.

This is the first time they have won the award, but they have been in the top 10 category twice before. In addition to being awarded a keepsake trophy, a revolving trophy and a cheque for $1,000, Acadia Colony Farms will also receive an all -expense-paid trip to a destination of their choice for their achievement. Christine Wentworth, the vice -president of agri - culture procurement for North America, extended personal congratulations, expresse d her gratitude to the growers for their dedication to the potato industry.

She thanked the Acadia Colony Farms for everything they do to ensure a reliable and safe supply of potatoes, stressing the importance of keeping consumers in mind. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize the dedicated farmers of the Acadia colony and con - gratulate them on their award -winning achievement. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: Seeing no grievances, we'll move into orders of the day, government business. Hon.

Andrew Swan (Government House Leader): On House business, could you please canvass the House to see if there is leave to set aside the Executive Council Estimates in the C hamber today and instead have the Estimates for Education and Advanced Learning considered, with this change to apply for today only? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to set aside the Executive Council Estimates in the Chamber today, instead have t he Estimates for Education and Advanced Learning considered, and this change would apply only for today? [Agreed] Mr. Swan : Mr. Speaker, could you please call Committee of Supply? Mr.

Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH, HEALTHY LIVING AND SENIORS * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Su pply will now resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health, Healthy Living and Seniors. As previously agreed, questions for the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Ch arleswood): Mr. Chair, before I go back and revisit the question I posed yesterday as the session was ending, I would like to ask the minister why it took her two weeks to come forward and make an apology and not have done it sooner.

If there was sincerity in what she was doing, why did it take her two weeks to realize that she made some extremely inappropriate, offensive, unprofessional comments, and it took her two weeks to do anything about it? Hon. Erin Selby (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, I think it's important that we remember that the words that we choose have impact, that the words that we say in this House we often say in moments of debate, and sometimes the debate around here gets heated, absolutely, and at those times we sa y words that can hurt.

I saw yesterday the family was hurt by the words that I used, and that was not my intention. And I

1674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 think that our Speaker does a good job of trying to get us to all recognize that it's important to choose our words carefully and that I certainly think that's something that we should do, because our words do resonate outside of these walls, and it is very important that we choose them in a way to express ourselves, but not to cause pain. Mrs. Driedger: So, if the minister really fe els that way, and she saw that the family was hurt yesterday, she had ample time. The grandmother was extremely distressed yesterday. She was crying.

The minister saw all of that because the minister approached her and basically tried to get her to come to the office and have a further conversation. The grandmother indicated that she wasn't open to hear more lies from anybody, and the minister actually, yesterday, told her that her comments were taken out of context. I would say to the minister that what was taken out of context was her response to a question about how old the helicopter was, and following that question of age of helicopter, the minister is the one that went off context and started to accuse us of allowing babies to die.

So, if there was a nything out of context, it was this minister's comments right from the beginning. Why didn't she, if she saw the pain in Mrs. Feakes' eyes yesterday–and Mrs. Feakes was the one that called the NDP office and a staff person was sent out to chat with her. Then she called us because she was getting very unsatisfactory comments by the NDP, and that was when she called me. So, if the minister saw the pain yesterday, why d id she not apologize to Mrs. Feakes face to face yesterday? * (14:50) Ms. Selby : Mr.

Chair, as I said in the House yesterday, I would welcome any opportunity to meet with any of the families. It was never my intention for these families to relieve–to relive the tragedy that they went through. I think we can all agree that what they went through should never have happened and should never have to face that pain. And I can see that my words did hurt them and I think we all must choose our words carefully knowing that they resonate outside of this office, outside of this building and that although we may say things sometimes in the heat of debate, they have impact.

And I think that it is important to remember that. Mrs. Driedger: So why did it take the minis ter two weeks to realize she made outrageous comments? She accused MLAs of killing babies and now she's sitting here like she's reading from notes or has memorized this from last night. What happened two weeks later because this just isn't –this isn't all f itting together at all. If she was, indeed, contrite, if she realized her comments were unprofessional, horrible, horrible, why did she not realize that at the time she was saying it?

Like, why does everything always have to be partisan potshots and now, t wo weeks later, she thinks she's apologizing when she's had two weeks and didn't do anything with it and didn't even say anything to the grandmother yesterday? Does she not realize how awful her comments were two weeks ago? Why did it take her two weeks? Ms. Selby: Mr. Chair, my family has had their own experience of the emotional toll that pediatric heart surgery can take and I would wish no family to experience that. My nephew was born two months premature and at that time we thought, other than being v ery, very tiny, that he was okay.

And he went home from the hospital after some time in pediatric ICU and we thought he was doing pretty good. He was awfully little, but he was awfully strong. And then he didn't do too well. He started to fail a little bit and they thought he had a lung condition, the virus that babies can get called RSV, I think it's called, and he was in the hospital for that. And I was there with my sister and he was in the intensive care unit at the Children's Hospital in Montreal where he was born.

And this was a serious lung condition and we were nervous because he was pretty tiny but we still thought, he's got good care, he's got good doctors around him and he's got a very good team around him. He's going to be okay. I got a call one day from my sister saying that Sebastien had gone into cardiac arrest. And at that time Sebastien was still actually premature, he was still a month away from the date that he should have been born at so he was a very little guy. And he went into cardiac arrest and they brought in the crash cart and they had my sister leave the room and told her she should call family.

And she called me. I was in university at the time and she told me what was happening and said, I don't think I should call my husband because he's got a busy day at work today and I don't want to disturb him, because my sister was clearly in shock of what was going on. And I had to talk to her very calmly and tell her that I was quite sure that Sebastien's father would want to be disturbed f or this. That he would want to know what's going on and that no matter how busy a day he's having, this is going to be more important. And I could hear in my sister's voice

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1675 that she wasn't quite computing what was going on. It was pretty hard for her but s he did call Sebastien's father and the rest of the family that were in Montreal at the time and we were all down there. And we were asked if my sister wanted to have last rites performed on my nephew, and I don't know what her answer was. I honestly cannot remember what we said, but it didn't happen. Sebastien pulled through long enough for him to go to surgery and it was determined that he had a blocked valve that needed to be opened; it wasn't pumping enough blood for him.

And Sebastien was a little guy, but they decided to do balloon angioplasty on him. And at that time, in 1993, in Montreal, Sebastien was the youngest and the smallest child in North America that had ever had that procedure done. And although the doctors were trying to figure out what was the best way to get that valve of his open–they had never done it on a premature baby before, and if you imagine how small those little hearts are and how tiny those little valves are –they made a guess. They made a good guess.

They made an estimated guess of what size of balloon angioplasty they should use, and they were wrong and it blew out Sebastien's valve. Now, my sister never blamed the doctors for the choice that they made because Sebastien was dying and they had no choice. So they tried something experimental and they tried something new. And we often tease Sebastien now that he's been the product of many, many scientific papers all the way from Montreal down to Boston–who also has a very strong pediatric program where they learned from some of the things that happened with Sebastien.

But they did blow out his valve, and in doing that they saved his life, but they knew they had to replace the valve. And then they did something again that they hadn't done on somebody that little before, is try to f igure out where you find a valve for a person who's still premature and whose lungs were in pretty bad shape by that point. So he got a bovine valve. And I remember being there. We all took turns with Sebastien. We all took turns staying with him overnight. My sister had two other kids at home so we took turns with them as well.

And Sebastien had that open heart surgery and he's had a few more since then because although they have been successful and Sebastien is now 21 years old–and I just heard yesterday that he got accepted into the daycare program at the CEGEP that he's interested to learn to be a daycare provider, which is such a fantastic choice for him. He's such an awesome kid. But I digress for a moment.

Because Sebastien had his heart valve replaced when he was still not actually supposed to be born yet and a few more times after that, although it's worked and he has lived and he has thrived and he has been a remarkable young man now –is a remarkable young man – he keeps outgrowing those heart valves . He keeps getting bigger and he keeps getting stronger and he keeps outgrowing the heart valves that don't grow with him, which means he's had several surgeries over his quite short life.

And a couple of times in those surgeries my sister has been asked o n more than one occasion if she wants last rites performed, and we are so lucky that we have never had to go there, that he has always pulled through. But there are times when I have held her hand and tried to convince her that he'd be okay when, honestly, I wasn't so sure. But she needed to hear that. There were Christmases where I had her other kids at my house because we were trying our best to make things normal; goodness knows, they weren't normal. My sister had another child after Sebastien.

She was nursing one while holding Sebastien after his surgery while I had kids at my house as we were trying to pretend that all was good and Santa would go to the hospital too–don't worry about that, he'll be there. He knows that Sebastien's in the hospital. He knows that Alexander's [phonetic] there. He'll be there. And we were lucky. We're very, very lucky. I cannot imagine if I had not been able to reassure my sister. And now as a mother I cannot imagine what she went through because I've been even luckier. I've had three very, very healthy kids.

So to imagine what these families went through is heartbreaking, and I would never, ever want to put them through that again. * (15:00) Mrs. Driedger: It's certainly the concern that comes to my mind when I hear al l of that, is if the minister is well aware of how families feel, as she's saying because she's lived the experience, why in God's name would she resurrect a 20 -year-old nightmare for parents, because her words right now do not match what she did? So I would ask this minister: How could she say that with any degree of empathy and understanding?

And it's almost like, you know, it just makes one wonder where was her thinking two weeks ago when she made accusations that MLAs killed babies. Did she not realize how those parents

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 might be, just like her sister, and go through those type of things? Like, where was her head at the time? Mr. Chairperson: Before I ask honourable minister to–Honourable Minister? I would request are they not to start discussing with ea ch other. Let be one person ask the question. Let the other person answer the question. If the honourable minister wants to ask a question, he can ask the question. Ms.

Selby : I would wish no family to experience what those families went through, and although my family experience has been very positive, I would not wish them to go through what my sister has been through. Sebastien has graduated from the pediatric program. Sort of mixed feelings about it. Of course, it's a miracle. It is thanks to the intervention of an incredible team at the Montreal Children's Hospital that he is able to graduate from the children's pediatric program and move into the adult one. But there is also a sense of loss that we're leaving behind a team that has been part of our family for so long too.

Sebastien just found out very recently that he does have to go for another open heart surgery, and this guy knows the routine. He's been there enough times now he knows exactly what's coming. And he also just got accepted into the program that he wants to study at CEGEP in Montreal, and I sure hope that we can reconcile the two things and make sure that they can find a way for him to do both because, boy, he's worked hard to be there.

I think everyone in the House and everyone in this room can agree that what happened to these families is something that no parent and no family should ever have to deal with, that the words that we choose matter and can cause hurt. It was never my intention for families to relive this tragedy, and yesterday I met with a grandmother who was clearly in pain and my words contributed to that pain.

As a government, we have always sought to honour these families through our actions, including making sure that we move the health -care system away from this culture of secrecy and blame to a culture of learning, because when medical errors happen–and I wish I could say they never would but, tragically, sometimes they happen –we need to talk about it. We need to learn from it. We need to face it and we need to m ake sure it never happens again, and those families deserve answers. Mrs.

Driedger: There's a lot of rhetoric coming from the minister and I wish, I just wish –I can see she's reading notes and some words have been prepared for her, and I would ask that she even admits here now that the grandmother –that the grandmother was in pain, and I will ask one more time why, when she saw a grandma in pain, did she not express her regret. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. One moment. [interjection] Order, please. Order, please.

If you want to have discussion maybe you go on the side, and one person should ask the question and the other person should answer the question, and that's how debate is supposed to be. I will urge the members just to restrain yourself. Ms. Selby: Hearing the words from the family, I can see that my words hurt them. I think we can all agree that we must all choose our words carefully because they have impact, because the things we say in these rooms in the moment resonate outside of these walls. It was never my intention for these families to really–to go through these tragedies again.

It was never my intention for them to relive it. And I think it is very important that we all remember that our words can hurt. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us who told her she had to make the apology? Ms. Selby: Upon reflection–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Order, please. Ms. Selby: –and hearing the words from the family, I could see that my words hurt them, and I think it's important that we remember that the words that we choose have impact, that the words that all of us choose can hurt and is never my intention to hurt the family or any other family.

And we must remember that the words that we choose matter and can cause real pain. Mrs. Driedger: The minister didn't answer the question. Can she tell us who told her she had to apologize? Ms. Selby : Upon reflection and hearing the w ords from the family, I could see that my words hurt them, which is why I say we must always remember that the words we choose have impact, that those words can hurt. It is not my intention for the families to relive the tragedy, and we must choose our words carefully,

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1677 knowing that those words matter and that can cause hurt. Mrs. Driedger: Can–I see that the minister isn't going to answer that particular question, but I wonder if she would also, as has been pointed out in an editorial today, also apologi ze to the official opposition for making the accusations –for making accusations that–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Order, please. Minister, order, please. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Chair, if I could finish, if the minister would also go that st ep further and apologize to the opposition for making that accusation. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Order, please. I – order, please. Let the honourable member ask the question. Let the honourable minister answer the question. And if you want to step in, perhaps you can ask the question as well, but otherwise please keep silent. * (15:10) Ms.

Selby: We have always sought to honour these families through our actions as a government, including moving the health- care system away from what was a culture of secrecy and individual blame to a culture of learning. I think when medical errors happen–and they do, particularly in difficult, challenging situations like critical care–we need to see what went wrong. We were the second province to bring in critical incident legislation, and we have worked on a number of ways to strengthen it since then. It will not be able to prevent every tragedy from happening; I wish I could say it could.

But when it does happen, those families deserve to know what happened, they deserve to have answers, and they need to know that it won't happen again. Mrs. Driedger: Well, there's certainly a lot of rhetoric from this minister. I see there's no apology coming for making the partisan comments, the very offensive ones, to the official opposition. She talks, too, about moving away from secrecy. I just want to remind her what her government did when Brian Sinclair died after waiting for 34 hours in an ER, basically invisible. The minister of Health of the day went MIA f or a week and didn't face the public.

And, in fact, what we saw happen was a major cover-up by this government. So this minister has absolutely no credibility when she talks about moving away from secrecy. And we could probably spend the next two hours about the lack of transparency and accountability by this government and we could use the word secrecy. The minister hasn't answered any questions on STARS other than reading from her scripted notes. So, if we want to talk about, you know, transparency, then maybe the minister, as we go forward now with these questions, will answer them.

I –you know, either she doesn't know the answers, which is concerning, or she doesn't want to answer them, which is concerning. So either way we've got a problem here. And considering the comments being made by the minister, her actions do not fit with the rhetoric that we are hearing from her. So, you know, day by day she's losing more and more credibility on a go-forward basis. So, Mr.

Chair, seeing as we will get no further with the minister on this one obviously, can she go back to the last question that was asked yesterday about the mediator that was brought into the department and who specifically that mediator was working with? Was it just certain people? Yesterday she gave some indication that it was medical issues that the mediator was brought in to manage. Can the minister be more clear on that and indicate who this mediator was and who decided to bring him in? Ms.

Selby : And just before I get to the mediator again, I know the member had a couple of questions that I said yesterday I would get back to her. I have some responses for her if she would like those now. Mrs. Driedger: Yes, please, Mr. Chair. Ms. Selby: In response to the member's request for the letters ref erred to in the OAG report dated May 22nd and May 28th, I've been advised that the letters contain significant personal health information.

I am not at liberty to provide the member with these letters; however, I can confirm that the summaries provided by –in the OAG report are both complete and accurate, that these letters were discussed fully and completely with the Auditor General in her role as independent member of the Legislature.

As we talked about yesterday, a critical care environment is one of the most challenging and complex medical environments in the health system, and our different perspectives and medical opinions provided, and the department does rely on experts, both within the department and from external organizations to ensure quality ca re and patient

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 safety. We are pleased that the Auditor General's report notes that Health reacted with an adequate plan to address the quality of patient care concerns. As noted in the Auditor General's report, our response to patient care concerns regar ding STARS has been a critical review of medical circumstances, operational changes stemming from those reviews. I spoke of it yesterday. The Clinical Oversight Panel, under the leadership of Dr. Brian Postl, is providing patient-focused guidance and oversight for helicopter air ambulance.

This includes going–looking at the training, accreditation for personnel, quality assurance for clinical operations, guiding the eventual resumption of the inter -facility transfer by STARS in Manitoba. That's something that we know, particularly in rural Manitoba, families are counting on. Manitoba Health has been taking steps to transfer STARS service to the WRHA. This will oversee the Province's arrangement with STARS. It will enable the medical crews to enhance thei r experience and training in Winnipeg's high -volume, emergency, and critical care medical system.

We know that those folks with that very specialized training need the opportunity to keep those skills up, and this will provide the opportunity for them to do that. As well, we are moving forward with establishing the office of the medical director to ensure consistency of medical training and practice across the EMS system in Manitoba, and, again, I will note that the mediator was a mediator brought in for medical advice agreed upon by both Manitoba Health and STARS. Mrs. Driedger: Is the mediator still involved with the department? Ms. Selby: No. He's concluded his work. Mrs.

Driedger: Was he hired on a contract basis to mediate the problems in this issue? Ms. Selby : The medical mediator came on in a voluntary basis in July of 2013 and signalled that the process had concluded in January 2014. Mrs. Driedger: Did it conclude because he reached success, or did it conclude because there wasn't full participation from everybody in the process? Ms. Selby : That was the time when we brought in the Clinical Oversight Panel under the leadership of Dr. Brian Postl, which, of course, is providing the patient focus guidance and oversight on our helicopter air ambulance service.

But, again, I will remind the member that the medical mediator was agreed upon by both Manitoba Health and STARS. * (15:20) Mrs. Driedger: It seems unusual, Mr. Chair, to have a mediator on board for seven months. The problems must've been quite serious for a mediator, a physician, to be part of this process for so long. Can she give us some indication of how the mediator went about trying to resolve some of these issues and what those issues were? Ms.

Selby : I can assure the member that patient safety is the top priority for STARS, for EMS, for Manitoba Health, that they are all working co-operatively, all represented at the Clinical Oversight Panel under the leadership of Dr. Brian Postl where they are addressing patient safety to ensure that we are providing the highest level of care and working towards full resumption of STARS service. Mrs. Driedger: I guess the minister must've missed the question.

The question had been about the mediator being there for seven months, and I had asked her what the issues were that he had to deal with and how did he go about doing that. Ms. Selby : As I sa id yesterday, the purpose of having the medical mediation was to seek a common understanding of the medical model used by Manitoba as well as STARS, options for medical model and the role –'organizinal,' 'organational' –I'm stuck on that word–organizational structure played in the working relationship between STARS and Manitoba Health, and during that time he engaged in ongoing discussion with Manitoba Health and STARS.

I think the member should recognize that this individual is also a critical- care physici an, was balancing that as well, as well as the other schedules of people who work both at STARS and Manitoba Health. Mrs. Driedger: I think the minister has probably given us just a tiny little bit of the answer. Were there some other significant issues in there besides trying to get everybody to work under a medical model? I'm not even sure what she means by that. STARS has been around for a really long time and doesn't seem to have any problems under - standing that in other provinces. What were the catches here?

Like, what were the problems here in getting doctors to–and they are physicians, and she's saying that the mediator worked with physicians.

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 Was there some specific problem that doctors weren't getting along or weren't agreeing with each other, or what were the problems? Ms. Selby : As we've discussed a number of times over the last couple of days, critical care is an incredibly complex and challenging area of medicine to work in. We know that the folks around the table talked through the complexiti es and that not everyone agrees. It's why we feel it's very important to get the opinions of both internal and external experts until they can reach consensus.

That is what will happen, no doubt, around the table at the Clinical Oversight Panel under the s upport of and leadership of Brian Postl and with representation from STARS, EMS and Manitoba Health, all people with experience and expertise, but probably at times will not agree. And that is to be expected in critical care, but that's why we have them ar ound the table talking, so that these people who–I know the STARS CEO calls the wise minds, the wise table–can discuss their various opinions and come to consensus.

The issues are the ones that were outlined in the OAG report, which is also discussed in the OAG report–that STARS is integrated differently here in Manitoba through MTCC in Brandon, which is different than how it's done in other provinces. And, again, that is also outlined in the OAG report. Mrs. Driedger: Had the minister heard that the mediator had called a meeting and nobody showed up? * (15:30) Ms. Selby: No, I have not heard that. If this is the case, I would welcome that information. We expect everyone to behave professionally.

STARS expects that, too, allowing that there may be a sched uling error, but otherwise it would be unacceptable. If the member has information, I would welcome that. Mrs. Driedger: There were 600 missions, I understand, and only in 400 of them were patients transported. What happened in the other 200? That's quite a lot or a big number, and I probably don't have the exact numbers. It's –but it's in that ballpark. So why would there be 600 flights or missions but only 400 patients transported? For 200 missions there were no patients. Can the minister explain that? Ms.

Selby : Of course, the folks at the front line at MTCC make those decisions. They're the experts that make the call on whether it should be a land ambulance, air helicopter, Helijet. In some cases, more than one actually; sometimes they send them out together. There can be times that STARS is dispatched, but for whatever reason on the ground, in that particular situation the EMS land ambulance ends up doing the transportation. It may be because it's preferred. It may be something that's happened on the fr ont lines.

And the folks in those incredibly challenging jobs make those decisions and have the expertise to make it. There is times, of course, that an emergency call comes through and it's determined that STARS helicopter is the best thing to send ther e, and when they arrive at the scene that there may not need to be a transport. Honestly, that is probably one of the best situations we can hope for, is that we don't want anyone to have to be calling an emergency or having an emergency situation. But at times they get called out and perhaps the situation has been resolved.

We'd be happy to get the member a list of those missions. Certainly, it would be a case by case of why a decision is made. In one case it would be different from the next one of why i t would be land or STARS or a Lifeflight. And, as I said, sometimes both are used in whatever the particular situation may be. Mrs. Driedger: In fact, Mr. Chair, I did ask for copies of those mission reports. I understand that there are mission reports do ne on every trip, but the minister's office indicated that I wouldn't be able to get those.

But the minister is offering now that that information is available, even though her department said they didn't have that and I –so therefore I couldn't have it? Ms. Selby: We would be happy to talk about why a patient may or may not have been transported in a particular situation but the member should recognize that we can't release mission reports because those, of course, have personal health information on them. Mrs. Driedger: And I am aware that they do have personal information but the minister just indicated that she would be able to provide them.

Is she now saying that she can't because of personal information? Ms. Selby: No, actually, Mr. Chair, what we sa id is that we could let the member know the reasons why a patient may not have been transported in a particular case but, clearly, we can't be giving out personal health information. Mrs. Driedger: So, then, can the minister indicate – does her office track the number of missions, the type of patients that are transported, the outcome of

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 that transport? And why, then, 200 missions end up with no involvement with patients? Does her department track that then? Ms. Selby : Mr. Chair, t he Medical Transportation Co-ordination Centre is the dispatch. They maintain that information. Mrs. Driedger: The minister indicated that she would be able to provide information about the 200 that were not–that did not have patients involved with them, even though STARS had been called out. Is she still saying that she can provide that information? * (15:40) Ms.

Selby: We do track a range of information and we would be happy to compile it and see what can be provided. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you to the minister for that. Now, when a contract with STARS was agreed upon, Treasury Board directed Manitoba Health that they could enter into this contract for five years, but Manitoba Health went and signed the contract for 10 years. Can the minister tell us why Manitoba Health ignored the recommendation from Treasury Board that the contract be only five years in length? Ms.

Selby: I just want to go back to something the member was saying earlier when we were discussing the transport of patients and the missions that may not have inv olved the transport. There are a range of reasons why. It'd probably be simpler if we summarized why the patients may not have been transported. I wanted just to confirm that that would be okay with the member. Mrs. Driedger: Yes, that would –that's cert ainly acceptable as long as there's some clear information that breaks down that number of 200 and the reasons behind patients not being transported in those 200 cases. Ms.

Selby: And then back to the other question that the member had just asked. We discussed this with Treasury Board in the Estimates process. They were aware of the 10-year time period. When they gave us approval to go to the 24- 7 service, they were aware of the 10-year contract at that time. Mrs. Driedger: So they were–was it part of signing the contract that there was an obligation, then, by STARS, that it be a 10 -year contract, which is twice the length of what Treasury Board initially approved? Ms.

Selby: Certainly, we wanted the stability of the long-term contract, but the 10- year contract was approved by a Treasury Board at the time that we went to the 24-7 coverage. Mrs. Driedger: A lot of people out there in this industry were quite surprised that the gover nment would enter into a five -year contract because –or pardon me, into a 10- year contract because most contracts for technology reasons and a lot of other reasons rarely go beyond five years.

So what was it that compelled the government to do a 10 -year contract when it actually goes against sort of, you know, more industry standards that would only be five years? Ms. Selby: We, as I said earlier, wanted the stability of a long- term contract. We'd seen the work that STARS had done during the major floods in 2009 and 2011; certainly would hope that we don't need to use them in such circumstances again but it's hard to say in Manitoba that we will never have a circumstance where we'll need helicopter ambulance on that kind of a massive scale. This is the decision that we made.

We know that everyone doesn't agree but we thought it was important to continue providing this life -saving service. We know that getting a highly skilled medical team to a patient as quickly as possible can make all the difference and a modern EMS service includes air helicopter ambulance service, it includes land service, it includes having the life jet as well. Our focus, of course, is providing the best patient care that we can. We know that families depend on it and we know how important STARS had been during some very trying times in Manitoba when we faced unbelievable flood situations.

And we wanted to be able to continue having a full, modern EMS service in Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: In the feasibility study there was a recommendation to expand the Lifeflight program; has that happened based on that recommendation from the feasibility study? * (15:50) Ms. Selby: Well, we certainly know that any modern EMS service includes all three, that all three are necessary. All three have str engths in different areas and all three work co -operatively to get medical care to people wherever they are. Whether that be

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 helicopter, jet, land, we know that it can sometimes make all the difference that you can get the right medical professionals to s omebody in an emergency and get somebody out of that situation and to a hospital as well. Lifeflight is a very successful program. It is something we're very proud of, the work that the folks do there.

We know they respond to a range of critical-care need s and they were a very important part–of course they are an important part of our EMS system, but during the time that STARS was suspended, they were an important part of the contingency plan as well. And we know that they do respond regularly to a number of calls. Mrs. Driedger: The minister didn't answer the question. It had been asked of her whether or not the Lifeflight program was expanded as per the recommendation from the feasibility study. That was the question. Ms.

Selby : We would be happy to provi de the member with any expansion to the program that's happened since 2009, but we don't have that information on hand right now. We have to get back to her. Mrs. Driedger: That's fine, Mr. Chair. Can the minister tell us how many trips STARS has been on or how many missions STARS has been on since the grounding was partially lifted? Ms.

Selby: As the member said, STARS is not back on full service at this time, but they are available for that scene emergency service in those situations, whether it be a re mote area that only the helicopter can get to or just a particular situation where land or jet is unable to reach it. So, since that time, since the resumption of scene calls, STARS has flown on four missions. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate over what period of time those four missions took place? Ms.

Selby : Those missions would have occurred between March 7th and April 3rd–but also to mention that the Clinical Oversight Panel, under the leadership of Dr. Brian Postl, is looking at a number of things, including dispatch and expanding the role and, of course, working towards full resumption of the STARS service as well. Mrs. Driedger: So, if we look at that right now, four missions over a period of about a month, and if we're spending about a million dollars a month on this, am I accurate in understanding that each mission then costs about $250,000? Ms.

Selby: Of course during this time and at the time when STARS was suspended, folks were training, working to get it back to full service. We've talked about it before here, that those skills that people have who work in critical care, who work in emergency medicine, it's very important that they're able to keep those skills up and so, of course, have been training and working with the Clinical Oversight Panel to address concerns to make sure that we can return to full service. I think it's important to recognize the work that STARS does do.

We certainly saw in the floods of 2009 and 2011 the important work that they did, that they were able to get to people that could not have been reached, that we did not have to interrupt our EMS service because we were able to go places where there was no–literally, no roads, and to recognize that air ambulance is front-line health care, particularly for families in rural Manitoba. The folks at MTCC, they make the call of who should go, whether that be land ambulance, helicopter ambulance or a jet.

They're the folks with the expertise to make those decisions, but there are times when there is no other choice but a helicopter, whether it be a remote location, whether it just be another scene call where nothing else can get through. * (16:00) So I think it's important to remember that air ambulance is front -line health care and particularly for families in rural Manitoba who–we've heard from them–that depend on it, that want to see it back to full service. Mrs. Driedger: And, certainly, I think everybod y recognizes the importance and need for a helicopter EMS.

Especially when we see 19 ERs closed in rural Manitoba, there is particularly a greater need for having this service. And, certainly, people that are in rural Manitoba or people travelling the highways, I think, appreciate that we have helicopter EMS. So nobody disputes that it is a very valuable service. When the contract with STARS was first signed, was it an agreement just for STARS to pick up just scene calls, or were interfacility transfers always part of the picture? Ms. Selby : Mr. Chair, our focus –we know that STARS' focus is to make sure that we're providing the best patient care.

We know that that is what

1682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 matters to families. We know that rural families, in particular, depend on the STARS service. We saw that in the major floods of 2009 and 2011. We partnered with STARS to offer helicopter ambulance service in rural Manitoba in areas that could not be reached any other way. Certainly, we saw the good work that they did during that time. In the flooding of 2011 alone, 50 patients –more than 50 patients were transported during that time.

They were able to get to places where there was significant road closures and were also able to keep our EMS response time within the benchmark, which is remarkable when you think of the dedication that that shows of all the people at every level working to provide that care. At that time, of course, they were brought in to do the emergency, sort of, work that needs to be done during flooding, but our contract, when we started with them, was for both scene and interfacility transports. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what is happening right now in order to get STARS back up and fully functioning? Ms.

Selby : Again, I would direct the member to the Clinical Oversight Panel under the leadership of Dr. Brian Postl. We know that critical- care environment is one of the most challenging. It is one of the most complex medical environments in the health-care system. And we know that there are different perspectives, different opinions, which is why we do rely on experts both within the depart - ment and external organizations to make sure that we are providing quality care and patient safety. The Clinical Oversight Panel, under Dr.

Brian Postl, is providing that patient-focused guidance and oversight for helicopter air ambulance service. This includes training, accreditation for personnel, quality assurance for clinical operations. And, of course, that is all working towards guiding the eventual resumption of interfacility transfers by STARS in Manitoba or, as we've been saying, full service in Manitoba beyond just the scene calls that they're doing right now. But I should also add that Manitoba Health, of course, has also taken the steps to transfer the STARS service to the WRHA which will oversee the Province's arrangement with STARS.

This is important. We've discussed it a couple of times already. The importance of –people who work in critical care and emergency have very, very specialized skills, and they need to keep them up, and this will include the ability for the medical crew to enhance their experience and training in Winnipeg's high -volume emergency care and critical-care system. As well, moving forward with establishing the office of medical di rection to ensure that we have consistency of medical training and practice across the EMS system in Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: I'm certainly aware of the complexity and the challenges that people in ICU face. I was a–certainly, an ICU nursing supervisor for a number of years. So I had to deal with both intensive-care medicine and intensive-care surgery as well as being a nursing supervisor in emergency. So I'm very well aware of the environments under which they work and the challenges that they face in those environments. I'm curious, why was the decision made to remove the program, the helicopter EMS program, from Manitoba Health and put it in with the WRHA? Ms.

Selby: So, well–I mean, of course, the member would know well, then, the specialized skills of people who work in critical care and the importance that they keep those skills up. It's important that they have the opportunity to continue working under those kind of high volumes to maintain those skills. By bringing STARS service to the WRHA, it wil l allow the medical crews to have access to train and have the ability to keep those skills up, to hone those skills in Winnipeg's high -volume emergency and critical care system.

It's a good opportunity for people to be able to continue to have the volume of cases that can –that they need in order to keep up those specialized skills. Mrs. Driedger: But those people that are working on the helicopter already had access to all of that. They did go into ERs. They work elsewhere. So that answer really doesn't m ake sense because that was already happening.

Was the WRHA given the management of the helicopter EMS program because of all the problems that were happening within the department itself and the, you know, the fact a mediator had to be brought in for seve n months, which tells us that there was a dynamic going on within the department that was, in some people's words, toxic. Is that why it was put over to the WRHA to manage a program, because the minister's department was having problems running it herself? * (16:10)

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1683 Ms. Selby : No, that wasn't the reason, Mr. Chair. Medical consensus of our experts agreed that access to the WRHA's resources like the neonatal transport, respiratory therapy and all of the training was very important for people to be able to maintain those skills. It was a good link. Certainly note that the WRHA is eager and willing to work with STARS, everyone sitting around the table right now at the Clinical Oversight Panel with Dr. Postl, representation from all parties, talking about m oving forward.

Same thing in Alberta, as well, actually, that the STARS had moved from the Department of Health in Alberta to an RHA. I think that certainly in our case, we know that it will enable our medical crews to enhance their experience training. We know that Winnipeg, of course, is the place where we see the highest volume of emergency in critical care, and that is a good opportunity for people to better hone those skills and keep up that training.

Certainly something that STARS and the WRHA are b oth agreed upon is a good step forward in doing what we can to make sure that people are able to get that training that is so essential and goes towards ensuring that we do have the best patient care and the best patient safety that we can provide. Mrs. D riedger: It's a little troublesome that this is coming well after the fact of the government's rush to set up the program and then experience all these problems.

Maybe if they'd taken more time at the beginning and had that clinical oversight in place at the beginning and set up a proper program instead of mismanaging it, then maybe we might be in a different place and might not have seen so many patients fall through the holes. And, speaking of patients, with the third critical incident, I understand it w as labelled that and then it was determined that it wasn't a critical incident. Has it been formally –has a decision been formally made that that death of that third patient was not a critical incident?

I understand that somebody from –and it might have been the minister that indicated that evidence showed that her passing had nothing to do with what happened on STARS –so is the critical incident–the fact it was called a critical incident going to be removed and then not seen as a critical incident? Ms. Selby : Mr. Chair, the third incident that the member's referring to is still a critical incident, but it was determined that the patient involved had an underlying condition that led to the patient's demise.

But, because it was a critical incident, it certainly has led to changes, including changes in equipment, in training. But, again, I think the thing we need to go back to is the Clinical Oversight Panel that will be looking at all aspects of patient safety, that will be patient focused and looking at those t hings, but also, you know, training, accreditation, quality assurance and working towards guiding full resumption of STARS service in Manitoba. Mrs.

Driedger: When the STARS contract was being talked about at the beginning, the $100-million cost was always what was –the contract was pegged at, so that was all that the government talked about, was $100 million over 10 years. And when the auditor's report came out, it indicated $159 million, which is quite a bit different. Can the mini ster explain what those –or why there's a $59-million difference? * (16:20) Ms. Selby: The OAG report was the total program, which includes STARS, MTCC and the EMS branch. Mrs.

Driedger: Is–did the minister just indicate that within that price tag is her department–the EMS department's spending allocation? Ms. Selby : So the OAG reports costs included for MTCC and Brandon–and the branch specifically related to STARS, not the whole branch, not all of MTCC. Mrs.

Driedger: So what I am wanting to know is if we are looking at this on a monthly basis and we are looking at a breakdown–can the minister provide for us a break down of all of the costs that occur every month for the next 10 years and where specifically those costs, you know, whether it's related to staffing or whether it's related to maintenance or new parts or–I think it's important that we see–and I know there is a lot of interest amongst many out there to know where exactly that money is being spent. So would the minister be able to tell us what that breakdown would be on a monthly basis? Ms.

Selby: Of course, well, we know how important STARS service is for Manitobans. We know that STARS is able to get to places that land ambulance or a jet just cannot get to. We know that STARS is front-line service for many rural families. We can get back to the member more specifically on her question. We can see what we can

1684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 compile, recognizing that some people have more than one role for more than one task. But we will do our best to get back to the member with that. Mrs. Driedger: Can the–and I appreciate that. Can the minister indicate when that might happen? Ms. Selby: We'll have to get back to her. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, is the hangar something that is rented or is it something that was purchased? I've seen a number of $220,000 a year. Would that be a rental or does the –did the government buy its own hangar? * (16:30) Ms.

Selby: We are currently renting the hangar. Mrs. Driedger: And would the $220,000 a year be the amount that is being spent on the rental? Ms. Selby: We would have to confirm and get back to the member on that. Mrs. Driedger: When the contract was signed, the – there was supposed to be a certain amount of the cost covered by fundraising. Can the minister confirm what the contract indicated would be the amount that had to be raised through fundraising to pay for the costs? Was it $2 million or 50-50? Ms. Selby : During his Estimates, I understand that the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) did table a copy of the service purchase agreement with STARS, and the

section on fundraising is in

section 4. But I will say that the STARS foundation model allows for patients, communities, corporations to participate in the program, help them improve services and build infrastructure as well as offset costs to government. We believe, and STARS believes, that they will be able to increase their fundraising in Manitoba and begin to develop the same model of corporate sponsorship that they see in other provinces. But STARS has acknowledged that the fundraising efforts have not been what they've hoped.

They've also indicated that they have had some successes, like their CEO rescue on an island, which they were able to raise over $300,000 in one day. My understanding is that in 2012- 2013, STARS experienced losses of $496,000 on their fundraising, but the results for 2013- 14 are disclosed in the year-end statem ent, which I believe their year -end was March 31st. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister have the numbers for '13-14? Ms. Selby : We don't have the numbers yet for 2013-2014, but they will be public, likely in June with the annual statement.

I can tell the me mber that the target was –for fundraising was $2 million. We are expecting it to be below that. But, to be very clear, we expect STARS to fundraise, and Manitoba Health will not be covering any financial shortfalls or losses that may have occurred in the STARS Lottery or any fundraising activities in 2013-2014. Mrs. Driedger: So, when the minister indicates that there was in 2012- 13 a $496,000 loss, can she explain exactly what she means by that? Ms. Selby : Yes, it is my understanding that in 2012-2013 STARS experienced losses of $496,000 on their fundraising.

We knew that 2012-2013 would be difficult for STARS, as they were, of course, just building their infrastructure, fundraising infrastructure, and at that time the losses were covered. But we do expect STARS to fundraise, as in our agreement, and we have been very clear that Manitoba Health will not be covering any financial shortfalls or losses of any fundraising activities in 2013-2014. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us, in 2012- 13, how much STARS made in their fundraising or how much they raised at that time in their actual fundraising?

And I guess I would ask, could she confirm that it was $177,000? * (16:40) Ms. Selby : So in 2012 -2013, STARS raised $177,000. We expected it would be difficult for them as they were building their funding infrastructure and becoming more well -known by Manitobans. But I can double-check and confirm that that is accurate. Mrs. Driedger: And can the minister tell us, was their target of fundraising $2 million for that year? Ms. Selby: Yes, the fundraising is an annual target of $2 million. Mrs.

Driedger: And then when the minister says there was a loss of $496,000, does that mean that the prizes then –and I understand that there might have been a house, I don't know if there was a car –that all of that then had to be bought, but because there was only $177,000, that $177,000 was put against the prizes plus another $496,000. Would that be accurate?

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1685 Ms. Selby : So we can ask STARS to provide that level of detail of their prize costs. But we can confirm that the fundraising revenue was $177,000, their expenses were $626,000, so the loss was the net between those. Mrs. Driedger: And the expenses, would the minister be able to break that down and indica te of the $626,000 in expenses, how much of that was for prizes and how much of that was for administrative costs that would have been paid to STARS ' fundraising costs? Ms.

Selby: Yes, we can ask STARS to provide that information but, again, I should say w e expect STARS to fundraise as per our agreement, and Manitoba Health will not be covering any financial shortfalls or losses that may have occurred in 2013-2014 with either the lottery or any other fundraising activities. We expected that there would be losses in the first year, as they were building their fundraising infrastructure, but we do expect them to fundraise as per the agreement that we have. Mrs.

Driedger: Is the minister, then, also by what she's not saying actually saying that the $496,000 loss for 2012 -13 was actually a loss that needed to be covered then by the Manitoba government? Ms. Selby: We knew, again, that 2012- 2013 would be difficult. We knew that STARS was just building their fundraising infrastructure, and those losses were covered by Manitoba Health as per agreement. But we expect STARS to fundraise. That's the agreement that we have with them, and we have been very clear that Manitoba Health will not cover any financial shortfalls for losses that may have occurred in 2013-2014. Mrs.

Driedger: So, in the contract then, has there been a new clause put in the agreement because she's saying, per the agreement, Manitoba Health won't be covering any losses. Was that not part of the agreement in 2012-13? * (16:50) Ms. Selby: We expect ST ARS to fundraise. That is our agreement. They are expected to raise $2 million annually in fundraising. STARS does believe that they will be able to increase their fundraising here in Manitoba, as they do a model of corporate fundraising in sponsorship that exists in other provinces.

They are confident that they will be able to do that here in Manitoba, and they have acknowledged that their fundraising has not been what they had hoped as well. And we have also acknowledged that we will not cover losses f or 2013-2014. Mrs. Driedger: I'm just looking at the prizes they offered, which were actually very, very nice. A grand prize was a Winnipeg show home worth over $1.1 million. Grand prize No. 2 was $200,000 cash. Grand prize No. 3 was a fifth wheel worth a bout $154,000. There's an early bird prize package worth over $78,000; it was a Mercedes plus a Vegas vacation.

Then there are six vehicles worth retail $213,000. And then, whoa, there's lots of vacations worth over $50,000 worth of vacations. Then there's 2,868 electronics prizes and more, worth over $553,000. And then there's some kind of a furniture package worth $30,000, a travel anywhere package worth $30,000, plus 350 more prizes worth over $362,000. And then you can also get a STARS helicopter ride, two STARS helicopter rides for two. And there's jewellery and there's cash. This all seems like a very, very ambitious fundraising effort.

And the minister just then indicated that they only raised $177,000, that government is paying for a $496,000 loss on this. There must be a bigger loss than this, too, because if we were to add up the value of every one of those prizes, it would be very, very high. Is the minister indicating then that if Manitoba taxpayers are only paying for $496,000 of this –and I shouldn't say only –who–or did STARS cover the other prizes then? And did it have to come out of their own bank account to cover off these prizes? Mr. Chairperson: The member for Charleswood, finished her question? Mrs.

Driedger: Oh, I had already asked it. Ms. Selby: Yes, we can ask STARS to provide that level of detail of their prize costs. But I can also say that I know that STARS has had a very –has a lot of experience organizing fundraising. They've done a lot of fundraising in their history in Alberta in particular. Their model allows for patients, communities, corporations to participate in the program. The program, through fundraising, is able to improve services and build infrastructure and offset cost to government.

We believe, STARS believes, t hat they will be able to increase their fundraising in Manitoba and develop that same model of corporate sponsorship that exists in other provinces. They've acknowledged that their fundraising efforts have not been what

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 8, 2014 they've hoped. We do expect them to fundraise. They've indicated that they have had some successes. Their CFO rescue on the island was able to raise over $300,000 in just one day. We thought 2012-2013 would be difficult. They were just building their infrastructure at that time, and as I've said, we expect them to fundraise. It's part of the agreement, and we will not be covering any financial shortfalls or losses that may have occurred with the STARS lottery or any fundraising activities for 2013-2014. Mrs.

Driedger: I'm a bit concerned that there wasn't any protection for taxpayers in 2012-13, that it took a loss–almost, well, it was $496,000, so it looks like taxpayers in Manitoba bought half a house for somebody, a show home, worth $1.1 million, I guess. I know in Alberta they do fundrai se for about 80 per cent. In Saskatchewan, before Saskatchewan launched their program there, they had all their ducks in a row, they had their corporate sponsors and they didn't rely on taxpayers to pick up the whole cost.

Here what we've seen in Manitoba was the government rushing to hurry up and get this STARS contract in place before an election and they didn't get their ducks in a row, and we knew that right at the beginning that there were going to be some problems and that taxpayers were going to be the ones on the hook for some of this. So very concerned that, you know, the more we just delve into this, the more it sounds like the government has mismanaged this whole contract right from the very beginning and, you know, didn't see clearly to even put in some kind of protection for taxpayers in terms of loss on the lottery.

Can the minister tell us were there winners actually for every one of those prizes that was available in that lottery? Ms. Selby : We will ask STARS to provide the detail–the level of detail of their prizes for the member. But I would just like to add to that that we saw what STARS was able to do during the flooding of 2009 and 2011. We know how important the service is that they pr ovide, and we wanted to be able to offer a full modern complete EMS service to Manitobans. I've heard from rural Manitoba that this is an important service.

It's a service that families depend on and there are times when no other EMS is able to get there. Land is not able to. Jet may not be able to. We knew that going and looking at another option, trying to build one from the ground up was going to mean a gap in service. STARS was here for the 2011 flood, we wanted to be able to maintain that service so we believed that by contracting with STARS that it was the right call on this life -saving service. We know the opposition doesn't agree with this, but this is the path we chose. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, I'm not sure where the minister got off saying we didn't agree with it. We don't agree with how she managed this contract. We've certainly always been in favour of a helicopter EMS program, but it was important that it be done right and done well. Instead, we're seeing some major challenges. Mr. Chairperson: Order. The hour being 5 p.m., committee rise. AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to some semblance of order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. Wouldn't you know it, the floor is now open for questions. Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Just wondering if the minister has found out about my question, couple of questions, pertaining to yesterday: the vacancy rate of the GO offices and GO centres specifically. I'll start with that. Hon.

Ron Kostyshyn (Minister o f Agriculture, Food and Rural Development ): So what we have tabulated–and maybe, to the member opposite, maybe we'll elaborate if need be, but basically we'll – in the GO–some of the offices–or–GO Centres where we've got a total vacancy of 14.62, or 20.1 sta ff members that that's equivalent to, an adequate description. Mr. Pedersen: And how many GO offices are there currently then? Mr. Kostyshyn: There is 31 offices.

April 8, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1687 Mr. Pedersen: The other question I had from yesterday was the issue about whether potatoes–seed potatoes were included in the –under the temporary rules for weight restrictions that's pertaining to grain movement. Does the minister have an update for that? Mr.

Kostyshyn : The following essential commo - dities do not need a permit: livestoc k feed in transit as follows, grain en route from producer to processor, unprocessed grain required for feed and processed livestock feed; also, seed in transit to supplier, farm or field, fertilizer, grain to satisfy grain quotas or contracts this year only. Potatoes or vegetables from producer to processors are essential commodities but will still need a permit.

The change to the SRR, which –let me just find that, okay–I guess maybe more in define–to apply for a permit for potato carriers through motor c arrier permits and development –MCPD–there is a phone number, and they must provide a licence plate number and the information en route they are planning to take and how much they will be moving. They must pay a $20 fee unless they are a farmer, then they a re exempt. Motor carrier permit develop - ment is unlikely to be turned down, but, I guess, maybe specific situation, depending on the highway conditions, may be turned down simply for safety purposes.

So, hopefully, that answers the question. Mr. Pedersen: Right. So what you're –if I understand, then, correctly, if a farmer is getting seed potatoes delivered or picking up seed potatoes for his own use, he does not need a permit. Is that correct? Mr. Kostyshyn : Potatoes or vegetables from producers to proces s are essential commodities but still will need a permit. So you're correct in your question. They do need a permit to go pick up the seed pota

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-3-39b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 3rd hansardpdf 39b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c0a454af06f21be24882c7b04562d4f63c9e9aba

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