Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 23-1:30 p.m., Thursday, April10, 1997 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone PC . SALE, Tim Crescent wood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

1243 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, Apri110, 1997 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committee of Suppl y): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS 1999 World Junior Hockey Championship Hon. James Downey (Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to make a statem ent today on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Filmon). I have copies for distribution.

I am indeed proud to stand on behalf of the Premier today to indicate to the members of the Assembly and the people of Manitoba and to congratulate the Manitoba bid committee members responsible for securing the 1999 World Junior Hockey Championship. Just over two hours ago, the Premier and I joined with the Canadian Hockey League and the Manitoba bid committee to make the official announcement: Manitoba will host the 1999 World Junior Hockey Championship.

1244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1997 *

(1335) The series of 31 games take place in Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage Ia Prairie and Selkirk. It is expected to provide a $6-million boost to our province's economy and strengthen the determination and sheer talent of Manitobans in our communities which they have shown once again in securing this prestigious tournament. In making the announcement, Murray Costello, the president of Canadian Hockey, cited many factors in selecting Manitoba's bid.

He noted the special-event atmosphere built into Manitoba's bid impressed the selection committee, as did the strength and base of volunteer support available in the participating Manitoba communities. They particularly noted the support Manitoba's bid received from all the communities involved. Mr. Costello finished off by saying, and I quote, we believe this should be the most successful World Junior Hockey Championship we have ever held. What a great compliment to Manitobans involved in securing this bid for our community.

Canadian Hockey knows that Manitoba can set a new standard of excellence in hosting this major event, and so do the people of Manitoba. Our province has successfully hosted world curling, the Pan American Junior Track and Field Championships, World Board Sailing, World Youth Baseball and many other national sporting events like the 1991 Grey Cup, that many have said was the best Grey Cup in the history of the country.

This summer we will host the World Handball and Canada Summer Games in Brandon and, of course, just a few months after the World Junior Hockey tournament comes to Manitoba, we will play host to the 1999 Pan-American Games, the second largest sporting event in the world. The only event larger is the Summer Olympics. Thank you to Canadian Hockey and the International Ice Hockey Federation for choosing us. I know Manitobans will make these organizations truly proud that they chose Manitoba.

Congratulations once again to the Manitoba bid committee, Hockey Manitoba, the Province of Manitoba, the cities of Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage Ia Prairie and Selkirk, the mayors of these communities, Winnipeg Enterprises Corporation and the many organizations who have made a commitment to support this hockey tournament and its related events. We look forward to hosting the very best World Junior Hockey Championship of all time, December 26. 1998. to January 5, 1999. I want to congratulate each and every one of the bid committee and, as well. best of luck for all the sports activities that take place in this event.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, responding to this good news announcement, I would like to congratulate the total bid committee in securing Manitoba as the host for the 1999 World Junior Hockey Championship. We think this is a very, very positive announcement today. We are not aware of all the financial details of the bid proposal and we will obviously be questioning the government on our financial obligations. but the awarding of this tournament is very. very good nev<s for Manitoba communities.

I am pleased to see that the tournament will take place in a number of communities across Manitoba. Brandon, Portage Ia Prairie, Selkirk. I would encourage the government to look at the recent success in junior hockey in northern Manitoba, the OCN Blizzard with its great team results this year in its first year of hockey. Perhaps with this new and exciting team and this new popularity of junior hockey in Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, the bid committee could be flexible enough to expand some of the sites to be hosted in the OCN community and the community of northern Manitoba.

This is very good news for hockey fans and for our community. It comes on the heels of the Canadian women's hockey team winning again the world champio nship for. I believe it is the fourth year in a row, against the very. very competitive American women's hockey team. It also outlines, when we look at the competition in hockey, the changing nature of junior hockey. because we see a lot of our young people now going through the junior hockey ranks. but we see a lot of young people also now going through the high school and university ranks in hockey. whether it is in women's hockey or in men's hockey.

So we congratulate the government on this announcement today, and we look forward to being part of the hosting of this tournament. We look forward to more flexible utilization of communities, and we think it is good news for this province. -

April 10, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1245 *

(1340) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bili 14-The Pension Benefits Amendment Act Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that leave be given to introduce Bill 14, The Pension Benefits Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les prestations de pension), and the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor has been advised of the contents of this bill and recommends it to the House. I am tabling his message. Motion agreed to. Bi1116-- The Council on Post-Secondary Education Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educat ion and Training): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16, The Council on Post-Secondary Education Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil de l'enseignement postsecondaire, and that the same now be received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Adolescent Pregnancy Reduction Strategy Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, United Way agencies produced a report that should be ringing the bells in all of our heads in terms of the major crises of both offloading and the lack of focus on preventative programs to give our kids hope, rather than some of the despair that some kids are feeling at very, very early ages. Madam Speaker, we have raised questions in the past in this House about an issue that is somewhat a symptom of adolescent difficulty in our communities, the highest teen- and adolescent-pregnancy rate in Canada.

A subcommittee report that has not been released by the government yet linked the high teen pregnancy rate to the lack of adequate education and self-confidence, violence, abuse and poverty. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) in the last election campaign promised to develop, and targeted, strategies for community-based prevention to prevent unwanted pregnancies with our adolescent population. I would like to ask the Premier today: What action has he taken on his specific promise of two years ago? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable Leader of the Opposition for that question, because indeed it is an issue in Manitoba, something that has to be addressed and has to be addressed in a very comprehensive way.

We do know from statistics and from information that has been gathered by the Department of Family Services and dealt with through the Children and Youth Secretariat that those that are born to adolescent single parents are six times more likely to need use of the child welfare system than those who are born to two­ parent families and, Madam Speaker, we are working very aggressively through the Children and Youth Secretariat.

By the way, I want to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that the steering committee reports are available to the public through statutory publications, and I am sure that members of the opposition have seen them-they were working documents-and our strategy that has just been released by the Children and Youth Secretariat will deal in a very proactive and aggressive way with that issue. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I have read the report, the sanitized report released by the government dealing with teen pregnancy.

Again, we see many of the recommendations from the government for action are offloads onto other agencies, voluntary agencies, community agencies, co-ordination with this group and that group, and when it comes to specific action, this government is somewhat hypocritical in what it says it is going to do and what it actually does.

1246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1997 In light of the Postl report and the other reports that this government has had, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon ) specifically, in terms of our high teen pregnancy rate: Why has this government and this Premier cut the funding, the total funding for the committee for unplanned pregnancy, and why have they cut the education funds for planned parenthood? Does that make any long-term sense at all for prevention of unwanted pregnancies and teen pregnancies here in Manitoba? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that in order to find the solutions-it is very difficult for me or any of us in our age group in this Legislature to believe that we can solve the problems or get the right messages to the adolescents who are experiencing the problems of teen pregnancy, both the males and the females.

We have been doing some focus groups with young males to try to see how they can be involved in trying to solve the problem, and we need to be dealing with young females and asking them for their input on what messages will have an impact on young people, and we are. I have held meetings throughout the city of Winnipeg and in other parts of the province with groups of individuals from all different disciplines throughout the community, whether they be guidance counsellors in our school system, church leaders, and other professionals, to try to find a comprehensive plan and solution. *

(1345) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, perhaps it will be the guidance counsellors who have been left after the massive cuts by this government on our public education system. The Postl report recommends the primary preventative strategy site for adolescents-obviously before that it is at the family-must be at the school. The government's censored report, which they did not release and has been released by the NDP, recommends that programs provided in schools must provide information on a range of options to prevent unwanted and unintended pregnancies.

The government's sanitized report which they have released does not have any of these recommendations dealing with the school. I would like to ask the Premier: Is the reason why they have excluded these recommendations dealing with the school based on the massive cutbacks that have taken place in public education that will not allow our primary site to be located in the schools because of the some $43 million this government has cut away from preventative and educational programs in the public education system? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educ ation and Training): Madam Speaker. for starters, as part of the questioning the member put forward, we have an increase of $115 million in public schools' funding today more than we did when we took office. I think that needs to be repeated every time he indicates cuts, because it leaves a false impression that there has been an overall cut instead of a fluctuation on a steady scale going up, which is what has happened. I should indicate as welL Madam Speaker, in terms of the main thrust of the question. this is something that Manitoba Education and Training is very aware of.

It is something that we have been \vorking with together as ministers through the Child and Youth Secretariat. We have done a number of things in the public schools to address teenage pregnancy in terms of educating the people who are in the schools now. We have put in place infant labs in a variety of schools-and I can name them if the member wishes me to in a subsequent answer-to enable young mothers to continue their education so their children have a better advantage. Flood Prevention Ho\·ercraft Availability Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Natural Resources.

With the severe flooding along the Red River likely to begin unfortunately in just a number of days, for the second year in a row I would ask the Minister of Natural Resources \'Yhether he can explain to the House today why his government did not act on the request last year to get a hovercraft, test it on the Red River this year. Hon. Glen Cu mmings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, as it turns out, and the member is well aware, the equipment that would have been required is unavailable at this time. There is a -

April 10, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1247 piece of equipment that is available that could probably be purchased, and if the member is advocating that purchase, then perhaps he should say so. Mr. Dewar: Has the minister contacted authorities in Quebec to see whether the hovercraft there, which is used on about 1 0 to 12 rivers in that province, can be shipped here in time for the anticipated flooding of the Red River? Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, the information that we were given is that that craft is not available, and it is under contract to the Coast Guard to deal with, I believe, some 15 river breakups that it is contracted to do in that province. *

(1350) Red River-Hole Drilling Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My final question: Will the minister ensure that the drilling of holes in the Red River continues until it is no longer safe to do so? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I will undertake to review that. Certainly we are attempting to use this process as much as possible, and we certainly do not want to endanger anybody's life, but we are quite prepared to continue. The fact is that no one yet nor would we expect anyone to be able to tell us whether or not this will be highly effective or partly effective.

We are hopeful it will be of some use, but, again, as I indicated yesterday in Estimates, we have to warn the people in that area that there is still a potential for ice jams as there is every year but some years more so than others. The main danger to flooding in the area that the member is concerned about would be as a result of ice jams, and of course we are looking to make sure that there is a warning system in place as well. South Transcona Water Retention Pond Funding Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, south Transcona, like many other areas in Manitoba, is preparing for flooding this spring.

The difference is that in south Transcona there was hope that this would be the last year that they would have to make these preparations. In the Estimates for Urban Affairs, the minister stated that he would be prepared to fund the south Transcona flood protection pond at $1.75 million from the Urban Capital Project Phase III fund. He is waiting for a new motion from City Council to request these funds. I want to ask the minister if he will confirm that the allocation for the Urban Capital Project fund Phase III is $16 million for this year.

Can he assure us that there is room in that fund this year for the $1.7 5 million, and can he tell us how much of that fund has been allocated? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Indeed, it is a very serious problem, the flooding that is facing various sectors and particularly as the member for Radisson and the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) have brought forth this problem to me along with the councillor for the area, Shirley Timm-Rudolph, and the concerns that all three of them have expressed. I agree with them in a sense that this is a problem that can be addressed.

We have indicated that we are willing to address the problem through our Urban Capital Allocation fund to the tune ofl think it is $1.7 5 million and a 50-50 cost-share arrangement. The City of Winnipeg in their request to the province had indicated that they would like to participate but with new money. We have set up an allocation fund. It is totally unique in Canada in the sense where we have dedicated funding to a municipal government like the City of Winnipeg. So this is someplace where they should be looking. I will endeavour to expound a little further in my next. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, the question I would ask the minister is if there is room in the fund for this year. I want to ask the minister further if he has had any discussions with the city requiring them to submit for money from this fund, as opposed to new money which they are requesting, and why would they not have applied for the money in this fund in the first place so we would not have this delay? Mr. Reimer: Far be it from me to speculate on the thinking of some of the councillors that comes about on

12 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April I 0, 1997 Main Street other than to the fact that we respond in a very conscientious manner to the resolutions that are brought forth by the City Council. City Council had brought forth a resolution specifically asking for the cost-share on a 50-50 basis for the retention pond in Transcona. The stipulation that they put with it was that it was not to be the UCPA III funding but it was to be new funding from this provincial government. Madam Speaker, we are of the opinion that UCPA III, that fund of $96 million over five years, is totally unique.

It is specifically made for this type of project. It is an allocation for capital improvements in the City of Winnipeg. It is the natural area where this money should be applied for. Where there is the availability to fund it, we have made the offer. We feel that this is the only possibility for them to pursue. *

(1355) Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister confirm for the House when his Department of Urban Affairs must have the request for money under this UCPA fund for this year in order for the retention pond to be constructed this construction season to prevent another flood next spring? Mr. Reimer: I am led to believe that this is a topic of discussion, as we speak right now, at City Council. They brought it forth for discussion I believe yesterday at their council meeting.

I would think that I would be given some sort of confirmation or direction or some sort of resolution, hopefully, within the next week or two from City Council as to what their direction is. As I mentioned, this is a unique situation here in Canada where we form a partnership with the City of Winnipeg for the allocation of funds of a magnitude of $96 million. As mentioned, this is the third allocation of funding. The first one was for $90 million over five years. The second was $96 million over five years. Now we are into a third allocation of$96 million over five years.

It is a tremendous opportunity for the city to look at capital improvements. The south Transcona retention pond fits the criteria. That is where they should be looking at. Educat ion System Canadian History Curriculum Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, in the coming school year in September '97, Manitoba students will be able to graduate from high school without studying Canadian history at a senior level.

To the hundreds of Manitobans who have protested this, the minister has always said: Trust me, everything is in place; there will be new curricula for Grades 1 to 10 with added emphasis on Canadian studies to compensate for this loss. I would like to ask the minister today whether she could confirm that this new curriculum for Grades 1 to 10 is not available and in fact will not be available for September '97. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educ ation and Training): Madam Speaker. I have to indicate to the member that \.,hen she indicates that students can graduate without history. she is wrong.

Students do have to take history up until the end of Grade I 0. Right now they take it up until the end of Grade 11. I have indicated to the member that they will be learning in those first I 0 years the information that they currently learn in II. plus they will have the additional opportunity to take advanced history in their final two years. They also have to take, from a list of complementary subjects. four out of six, and one of those six is history. Madam Speaker. schools also have the opportunity. should they wish it. to make history compulsory at higher grades if that is their community choice.

Through school plans and those types of things. that opportunity is available. So I indicate to the member that we will not be having students graduate without understanding and knowing Canadian history. as she is wanting to imply. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, it is the minister's intention then to withdraw the requirement for senior level Grade 11 Canadian history at a time when the minister clearly does not have the new curriculum for Grades I to I 0 that she has talked about in Estimates, that she has talked about in this House before. That - -

April10, 1997 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 49 curriculum is not ready. Is the minister going to withdraw the requirement for the senior level requirement for graduation in Manitoba schools? Mrs. Mcint osh: Madam Speaker, the history curriculum is being worked upon in two areas. Western protocol, with the coming together of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, is embarking on common curricula preparation for a number of subject areas, one of which is history, social studies.

While the history curriculum is not complete at this particular date, she is wrong to assume from that that the history curriculum will not be ready in time for teaching when it is required. I indicate to the member, give her my assurance that the teaching of history in our schools will continue to be emphasized and enhanced and not neglected, as she continues to want to imply. * (1 400) Ms.

Friesen : Could the minister confirm that her staff have indeed advised her that the proposed new curriculum in Canadian studies, which was the prerequisite to the withdrawing of the requirement for the Grade 11 course, is not ready, that no texts have been written, no resource materials have been prepared, no pilot projects have been developed, that it cannot be put in place for at least three years and that in fact what we are looking at is the minister's millennium project? Mrs. Mcint osh: I indicate to the member that I do indeed have a millennium project.

By the year 2000 we expect to see in place outcomes, measured standards in a variety of subject areas. Indeed, the target area for many of the introduction of those is in fact the year 2000, because the member knows that you cannot prepare things overnight the way she seems to be inferring that we can. Madam Speaker, I will check and get back to the member as to the status in terms of the specific completion date, because the member is implying that I have been advised that it simply cannot be done until after the new millennium.

That is not what I have been informed by my department, but out of not wanting to call her a person who would deliberately put false information on the record, I will check on what she alleges and I will respond to her with the latest update from my department as to status. Brew Pubs Legislation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, under this government, the beer-brewing industry has not done weli. First, we lost Labatt, and there we lost 15 0 jobs. Now we are going to be losing Molson and that is somewhat 91. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Lamoureux: The member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) should be somewhat patient. We are talking about very important jobs here in the manufacturing industry. My question is: Will the government do something not only creative but very positive for the industry by allowing or bringing forward legislation that would allow for brewing pubs in the province of Manitoba? I ask that question of the Minister responsible for the Liquor Commission. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Madam Speaker, the member, I believe, knows-and I did have a discussion with the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Reimer) and a member of City Council-that it is possible at this time for groups or for business people to open brew pubs if they would like to. Representatives of the Liquor Commission have been more than willing to meet with people who wish to open brew pubs under our current legislation. I believe the member may be aware of that. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister if she will then clearly clarify there are no impediments that will prevent brewery pubs from opening today, that in fact it can happen. Mrs.

Vodrey: Under the legislation as it exists, provided they conform with the legislation, the hours of opening and what is required, then it is possible for brew pubs to in fact open now. If the member is asking for something further from that, I hope he will make himself clear in his next question.

1250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO'-B_A _______ A..._pr_i1_1-'-0.!.._, --'-19-=-9_7 Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Local Brewery Promotion Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Will the minister request that the MLCC consider, or if not in fact act on, promoting locally brewed beer, as in the past they have promoted the sale of imported beer? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): I believe that the members of the Liquor Control Commission have been very willing to meet with any person who is an entrepreneur who would like to examine the opening of a brew pub or other facilities which require licensing.

If the member has any concerns that have not happened, then I hope he will let me know about that, but to my knowledge, the Liquor Commission has in fact been very willing to meet and to explain to any entrepreneurs whatever the requirements are and what they would be expected to conform to under the current legislation. SmartHealth Patient Record Confidentiality Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, yesterday this government was wrong again.

Neither the Manitoba Medical Association nor the College of Physicians and Surgeons has given a green light to SmartHealth's plan to computerize confidential health care patient records. My questions are for the Premier. When both the Manitoba Medical Association and the College of Physicians and Surgeons say no to computerizing these records, how can ordinary Manitobans believe that their confidential and private records will remain just that, confidential and private? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): The interesting thing is that the member opposite is attempting to suggest that somehow medical records today are very, very secure. I recall-and this goes back for many, many years-instances when the New Democrats were in office where there was an entire set of records from a clinic in Transcona that was found blowing down the back lanes of the street, the back alleys. More recently we found private, confidential medical records in dumpsters in downtown Winnipeg because of the so- called security that people have of their medical records.

The fact of the matter is that electronic record keeping can be far more secure than any record keeping that we currently have today. The other thing is that the member opposite has alleged that there were not doctors represented in the current process of developing the health information network. There are 19 doctors that are part of the development process currently.

So again she brings information that is not accurate to the table, and she somehow alleges that people have something to fear from having their records electronically stored versus today when their records are open to the public by virtue of mistakes and mishandling of the information under its current form. Ms. McGifford: Clearly the Premier has misunderstood and misdirected my question. An Honourable Member: Again. Ms. McGifford: Again. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, to pose a supplementary question. Ms.

McGifford: To the Premier again: I wonder if the Premier could tell us today, will SmartHealth computer network include, as Dr. Brian Ritchie understands, medical charts. billings, office charts and other confidential materials? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will indicate a couple of things to the member opposite. Firstly, contrary to what she alleged yesterday, the information will not be the property of SmartHealth. It will be the property of Manitoba Health as it is today and always has been, so she is wrong on that. Further, I would indicate that-[interjection] No, she alleged. She alleged.

I will also indicate that this House will be dealing with, prior to the implementation of any1hing on SmartHealth, privacy legislation that will govern, whether it is SmartHealth, whether it is a public health information network or any other public information, the privacy rights of Manitobans, and it will supersede any information that can be used for any other purpose in the public domain. -

April 10, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1251 So those issues wiii be dealt with prior to the SmartHealth imp lementation, and she ought not to be attempting to raise fears. What she ought to be doing is coming here and debating the privacy legislation to ensure that it does indeed do as we want it to do which is to protect the interests of the public and the individ uals in the public. * (1410 ) Ms.

McGifford: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier understands that the difference between a breakdown in paper documents and computer documents is that when a computer breaks down, all records are at risk, not a few paper documents. However, that is not my question. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. It is my understanding that that indeed was a question. If I heard the member correctly she asked if the First Minis ter understood the difference between paper documents and computer documents. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, in fact, it is the opposite.

When the computer breaks down- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Osborne, on a point of order. Point of Order Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I was merely trying to pass a piece of information to the Premier for his edification. It was not my question. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. *** Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I am sure that-[inter jection] Sorry. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, a new question. Madam Speaker: A new question. Yes. Ms.

McGifford: Is it not time for this government to finally admit that SmartHealth is just another example of the government's fascination with technology, to date a $26-million dive into a computer system without having legislation at hand, in min d, in draft, not even knowing if protective legislation is indeed possible? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I just spoke at a luncheon today with a group of scientis ts and engineers who were involved in the technology development in our province.

This statement of course speaks volumes about the position of the dinosa urs who are sitting opposite us, who have absolutely no-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Fi rst Mini ster, to complete his response. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, they keep arguing against any change that takes place in socie ty. They want to be back as far as they can go in the past, in the horse and buggy days.

This is what we are dealing with, and that is the tragedy of it when a group of presumably int elli gent people who are elected to be in a position of trying to lead public opinion can be so backward as to suggest that technology is automatically bad for society. It is a dreadful position to take. It is an embarrassment to the New Democrats and it is why they will stay in opposition for a long, long time. SmartHealth Patient Record Confidentiality Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the Premier, who I know does not want to leave false and mis leading inf ormation on the record, first of all start by confirming that patient records are not the possession of Manitoba Health? They do not belong to Manitoba Health; they belong to patients. They are entrusted by patients to doctors and courts have made that clear many, many times. That is the essence of this issue, the question of who owns these records and who has the right to put them on what forms of media.

So will he confirm that he was wrong in indi cating that Manitoba Health owns my medical records? It does not. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, what I can confirm is that they will not be the property of

1252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10, 1997 SmartHealth as has been alleged by the New Democratic Party falsely. Mr. Sale: On a new question, Madam Speaker. The Premier, I believe, has confirmed that he misl ed the House in the sense that the records would be owned by Manitoba Health. I believe that he has clarified it, but he has not done so unequivocally. I hope he will do so, that the patient records of Manitobans are owned by Manitobans. My question is to the First Min ister. Will the Premier now act to protect Manitobans' privacy by directing the Minis ter of Health (Mr.

Praznik) to abandon now any plans to put comprehensive, confidential patient medical files on the SmartHealth system? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the system is being developed with some of the most extensive consultation that has ever gone on to the development of any system in Manitoba. It involves many, many stakeholders. It involves people whose major interest is to protect the records of the patient that are kept in trust by Manitoba Health as they are today. We will ensure that privacy is protected both in the health information system, the health information network that is being developed.

It will be enhanced as well by this process, and we wiii ensure as well with the privacy legislation that is going to be introduced in this House that all information that is in the public domain is subject to the very most stringent regulations possible to protect the interests of Manitobans. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Premier explain why it is in the public interest in any way that my confidential health records, including charts, drug information, genetic disease, background of any kind, that that information should be avai lable at pharmacies and hospitals and doctors' offices across this province?

What is the public benefit that is being gained by this? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think it is in the in terests of individual patients, as well as the public, that we not encounter cir cumstances in which people are prescribed medic ation that mig ht be in contradiction with something they are already taking.

I think it is in the interests of indiv idual patients, as well as Manitobans, that we not encounter damage to a person's health by vi rtue of the fact that a doctor does not know some information that may have been obtained from previous examinations and previous treatments that should be a part of the patient record.

I think it is in the interests of indiv idual patients that they not be overmedic ated, that they not be overserviced in terms of having successive repetitions of the same tests that they already have had within the last short whi le-where we have had instances of people being admitted into a hospital in southwestern Manitoba to get one series of tests, to be transferred to Brandon 48 hours later to have the same set of tests repeated, to be transferred to Winnipeg 72 hours later to have the same set of tests repeated. That is in nobody's interest; that is not in the individual's.

It is not good medicine, and it is not good for the health care of the indiv idual or of Manitobans. That is the kind of nonsense that he wants to preach, this dinosa ur from the past, in this House. Immigration Family Reunification Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Culture and Heritage. In the 1993 federal election the Li berals promised to make family-c lass imm igration a priority. This, of course, is just one of the many broken promises on imm igration made by the federal Liberals.

Family reunification has been made much more diffic ult, thanks to the Liberal government's head tax and other huge fee increases imposed by them. Has the province been invited to appear before the pre-election federal advisory committee reviewing the Immigration Act? * (14 20) Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Cul ture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, the member identifies an issue where I believe we have some agreement, and that is our concern to continue family reunification and to speak up on behalf of the people of our province, where we believe steps taken by the federal Lib eral government have interfered with family reunification. There was to be a hearing in Manitoba -I believe it was on Monday-wh ich was cancelled, but the answer - '

April 10, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1253 is yes, we had made arrangements to appear before that committee. We will be making sure that we do submit the position of Manitoba bef ore that committee. Mr. Hickes: Given that this province has had the most sig nifi cant loss of potential immi gration of all 10 provinces, why has this government not made scrapping the head tax the priority of negotiations with the federal government on imm igration issues? Mrs. Vodrey: This government has in fact registered its concern around the federal head tax. My colleague, now the Minis ter of Labour (Mr.

Gill eshammer), the former Mini ster of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, made that very clear previo usly, and I have continued to make that position known to the federal government. Most recently, I have had a communi cation with the federal government outlining that issue. Mr. Hickes: Can the mi nister tell the House how much money Manitobans have had to give the federal government in immigration fees, incl uding the head tax, since 1993? How much has it cost us as a province? Mrs. Vodrey: I am certainly prepared to find that figure for the member for the Estimates process.

I do not have it with me, but he does outline a very impo rtant point in that people in Manitoba, people wishing to immig rate to Manitoba, are charged a very sig nificant amount of money by the federal Liberal government. Our province, Madam Speaker, has been making every effort to attract immi gration to our province. We are on the Internet. We have participated in countries around the world to let them know that Manitoba is the place to come and to live and to settle. We have made our position known to the federal government; we are not happy with this detriment to our imm igratio n.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS St. James Canadians Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave? [agreed] Mr. McAlpine: It is my pleasure to rise today and pay tribu te on behalf of all members to the St. James Canadians, the Manitoba Junior Hockey League champions for two years straight. The St. James Canadians beat the Opaskwayak Cree Nation 4-1 in the best of seven series.

Last night the Canadians showed their leadership, spark and offensive production with a 3-0 win over the OCN Bliz zard. The St. James Canadians will now play for the Anavet Cup against the Saskatchewan Junior Hockey League winners between Weyburn Red Wings and the North Battleford North Stars. The OCN Bliz zard also deserve accolades for their fairy-tale rise from a brand new franchise last May to their finish as the second overall club. Truly, they have a strong future ahead of them. As a fan and supporter of junior hockey and the St. James Canadians who play out of the St.

James Civic Centre in the constituency of Sturgeon Creek, I want to offer my congratulations to the management, the coaches, the players of OCN on a very successful season and best wishes to them in the future. The I ,500 fans present at last night's game and at all the games saw some of the best junior hockey level of hockey available in Canada today, Madam Speaker. However, with the announcement today that Winnipeg will host the 1999 World Junior Championships, all Manitobans will soon be able to witness the calibre of junior hockey unparalleled.

With last evening 's win by the Canadians and this announcement, Winnipeg is poised to become the dominant junior hockey city in Canada and indeed the world. On behalf of my colleagues in government, I would like to extend my congratulations to Coach and GM Wayne Chernicki and the players of the St. James Canadians on their success as champions and wish them well in bringing the Anavet Cup to Manitoba for all of us to celebrate.

This will be a tremendous event for our province and an opportunity to show the community spirit Manitobans possess and to show all Canadians why Manitoba is the place to live, work, invest and raise a family. Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like leave for a nonpolitical statement.

1254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10 , 1997 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the officia l opposition have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I, too, would like to join in congratulating the St. James Canadians Junior Hockey team on their successful championship here again in the province of Manitoba and also join with all members in congratulating the OCN Bli zzard team on, as the member opposite described, its fairy-tale rise in its hockey fortunes in this its first year of junior hockey.

It has been a truly phenomenal success that we have witnessed with this junior hockey team from The Pas with a lot of great hockey being played across the province, whether it has been in Win kler, Neepawa, Selki rk, Dauphin and other communities, and it certainly has been a very, very strong community strength, this new hockey team in The Pas, to have the whole community basically fill that arena every night to watch good junior hockey being played in our province. I know that we all wish the Canadians well in playing -! believe its Melfort that is the Saskatchewan team.

Well, I will find out- An Honou rable Member: Weybum. Mr. Doer: Weybum. Weybum playing Melfort, is it not? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Doer: Okay. Well, I wish us well at playing the team in Saskatchewan. We hope that the St. James Canadians will continue to do well. I would say on behalf of the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) that I know he would want us to know that with such a young team in its first year, watch out in 1997-98 in the hockey season with the OCN Blizzard. Thank you very much. Midget Speed Skating Championship Mr.

Jim Ernst (Charleswood): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, I, too, want to offer my congratulations to the hockey teams that have won championships, but I wanted to share with you today the story of one of my constituents, Shannon Rempel. Shannon is 12 years old and is an active speed skater. This past weekend Shannon participa ted in the Canadian national short track mi dget speed skating champi onship in Prince Edward Island.

She came home with two gold medals. a silver and a bronze. In the 333-m etre distance. Shannon set a new Canadian record. completing the distance in 34.81 seconds, breaking the Canadian record of 34.91 seconds. She won the overall midget girls class championship with the highest number of points derived from the medal scoring system. * ( 1430) We can all be very proud of Shannon's accomplishments. There were over I 0 provinces represented at the short track championship. and Shannon \\as the first Mani toban to win the competition since 1980.

She also competed in the North American short track event the weekend previous in Mi nneapolis. Minnesota, where competitors came from all over the U.S. and Canada, and in this event Shannon placed second overall. She has been speed skating for three and a half years and has certainly demonstrated her speed, her skill and her expertise in winning championships and events and setting new records. I would like to congratulate Shannon for her recent victories. and I know we will hear Shannon Rempel's name mentioned again and again as she develops and grows in the sport of speed skating. Thank you.

Brent Chief Day Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Swan River have leave? [agreed] Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, recently friends, families and supporters turned out in full force in Swan River for Brent Chief Day. Brent Chief is a Special Olympia n who had the opportunity this year to participa te in the World Winter Games in Toronto and - -

April lO , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 55 Collin gwood last February. Brent was one of 12 Manit obans to qualify for the games which were attended by competitors from 60 countri es. Brent is a member of the Manitoba Special Olympics team, has been a member since 19 88 and took home a silver medal for the three-by-one Nordic ski relay and placed fifth in the one-kilom etre ski, fourth in the three­ kilo metre ski and si xth in the five-kilome tre ski.

When this reception was held, Brent was very outgoing in his apprecia tion to his coaches and to his family who have been very, very supportive, particularly his grandmother, Mrs. Snider. I want to take this opportunity to recognize all Special Olympia ns who participated in these games and pay special tribute to Brent who is out every day skiing and building up his strength so that he can further his competitions, and I want to recognize his coaches and his family who have supported him very much.

When you saw the enthusiasm on his face when he talked about his accompli shment, it was rewarding for all people who supported him, and I extend my deepest congratulations to him. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider ofthe Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) HOUSING Mr. Cha irperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Commi ttee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consi deration of the Estima tes of the Department of Housing. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item l. (b )(

I) on page 83 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? * (1 440) Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): If I am not mi staken, I think that the Minis ter of Housing was in the midst of answering my question about the way that the department and Personnel division are dealing with concerns about staff. We had been having a discussion about consultation with staff that is showing staff have a number of concerns, that there is a concern about low morale and lack of training.

I was suggesting that this is in tum possibly translating into an inability to deal effectively with tenants and other clients in the department and wondering if the minis ter can respond to that concern and tell us how the department is dealing with complaints about staff and how many complain ts they receive and how these complaints are dealt with and that type of thing. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I think that this an excellent way to introduce ourselves to some of the things that we are, in a sense, trying to achieve over at Manitoba Housing in trying to come forth with some new directions and new philosophies over there.

As pointed out earlier, one ofthe first things we tried to do was to try to get the employees and the staff to sit down and to literally give us the shopping list, if you want to call it, of complaints and concerns that they had that they felt we, as management and government, should be looking at and trying to make their job or their work envir onment more compatible with the goals and objectives that we and they put upon themselves. So this is one of the reasons why a lot of the complain ts and concerns were put down.

It was shown that we should put it down on black and white, in a sense, so that there is a realization of what the employees are concerned about. I welcome this type of attitude and this type of dir ection, because I think it puts into perspective the fact of where we should be making some changes. This was the first time that our department had ever been exposed to that type of phil osophy of telling us where

1256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10 , 19 97 the problems are, writing them down. There was no sense of persecution or anything that we were wanting to get back at the employees or anything of that nature. It was a free and open discussion as to where they felt there were problems. I think it is like anything. If we as a government do not give ourselves the ability to question our employees and ask them to tell us where and how they feel that there should be changes, it is very difficult to build up that type of co-operative movement of trying to bring in new elements of change.

So I welcomed the idea of them coming up with a list of complaints, of concerns that they felt we should be addressing. The natural progression from that, as we pointed out, was to set up these committees for consultation and for co-ordination within the working groups. It is an ongoing process where there is ability to move freely through the system of problem solving. I think that, just as there was the abil ity for them to make suggestions of concern and grievances, there was also the ability for them to lis t what they felt they liked about the organization and what was positive in their workforce.

So just as there is the listing of the so-called problems- Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Radisson, on a point of order. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I just wanted to rephrase or clarify for the min ister my question which had to do with how the department deals with complaints from tenants with Manitoba Housing about the staff specifically. That is what I am interested in finding out today. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Radisson does not have a point of order. It is a disp ute over the facts. * * * Mr.

Reimer: When the member was talking about complaints, I picked up on where we were more or less involved yesterday in the discussions, but in regard to employee complaints when they come in, I will just have to find out the exact procedure on that-if you can just give me a moment on that. I was just wanting to get the proper sequence of events as to how things transpire when there is a phone call or a letter regarding complaints. The procedure that is implemented is that the complaint is taken seriously.

There is staff or personnel assigned to try to come to some sort of resolve on that type of problem where that juri sdiction or that area where the problem is related to. It is then tried to work to a conclusion with the complainant in trying to come to an understanding or a decision on the complaint. There is also set up within the department an appeal mechanism. If the individual is not satisfied with the decision, there is an appeal mechanism set up, appeal panel, if you want to call it. so that that individual can go one step further in trying to come to a resolve on any type of problem. * (1 450) Ms.

Cerilli: The other part of my questions was the way that the department logs complaints about staff. How many complaints have been received by the department about staff over the last year and if there have been any trends in increase in complaints about staff. particula rly given the fact that we have just discussed a problem in the department of how there are a number of management changes that have occurred?

There have been a number of concerns about that in the department. and there are a lot of positions being filled on an acting capacity right now, so I am wondering if the minis ter could complete this area of questioning. Mr. Reimer: I have to apologize a little bit for the delay on that because it is a matter of procedure, I guess, in how complaints are handled. The member has asked regarding complaints about personnel, I guess, and the handling of-if I am correct in assuming that it is how we handle complaints that come in from clients or tenants in regard to personnel in management positions over these people.

From inf ormation that has been given to me. we do not keep a separate log in a sense of complaints against personnel compared to say complaints against the paint in the halls or something like that or the condition of the carpets in the halls. but it has been relayed to me that if there is a repeated complaint against one particular person, then that person is spoken to by our personnel manager. and management will make a point -

April 10 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1257 of trying to find out why or what is happening that there is this abnormality of complaints regarding this one individual. But, as to the categories of how many were against personnel and how many were against the condition of the carpets, we do not have that type of breakdown. I should add, too, that in pursuing any type of complaint, we do talk to the complainant too so that you get the two sides of the story. That is another way of trying to come to some sort of resolve if there is a problem with some individual. Ms.

Cerilli: The minis ter knows that I have written him on a variety of occasions about specific instances that are brought to my attention where tenants in Manitoba Housing Authority properties feel that they are being either discrimina ted against or that they are being treated in a harassing fashion by staff in the department, and on a case by case basis, I guess, we have tried to intervene. I am just wondering if any of those cases and if in any of these instances there is ever something that goes into the file, the personnel file of the staffperson.

Particularly in the area of harassment, there is a particular concern. I know one of the cases that I am thinking of that I brought to the mini ster's attention involved problems the staff are having when the department is trying to place new tenants who are mental health patients into seniors apartments, bachelor suites. That has been one instance where there have been complaints that the staff-and the staff maybe also feel that they are not prepared, they are not trained to deal with the types of tenants that they are having to deal with.

So, just to clarify then, I am wanting to know if in any cases over the last year or the last couple of years there have been instances where a complaint from a tenant or a client has resulted in the information being filed in the personnel file with the Manitoba Housing department or authority. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, in dealing with matters of personnel, it is always of a very deli cate nature in a sense because it is very signi ficant as to possibly the career path or the direction that an indiv idual is taking as he or she is trying to pursue a career in our Department of Housing.

So we take very seriously any type of allegation that would come forth from a tenant in the sense of some sort of conflict or harassment charge or potential charge, I should say, by a client and one of our employees with Manitoba Housing. We try to work very, very closely in consultation and with the employee to try to come to some sort of resolve and understanding of the possible conflict that he or she is being perceived to have brought forth by the individual.

We would hope that we could work with that employee so it does not come down to a point where, as mentioned by the member, there is a reprimand or a letter put on file against that person. There is always the opportunity to try to work with that person before it comes to that, but it has been reported to me that there have been inc idents where there have been notations in the person's file of situations that have come up. As to the number, we would have to go into the files to be specific, but I am told that it is not that common or that regular that this comes about.

The best direction is to try to work with that employee for him or her she to see why there is a conflict, to work in a more consultative nature of trying to resolve the problem before it gets to a point where it has to be a letter of reprimand that is put on the file. As mentioned, it is not that common. The amounts, I have been told, that come to a point where there is a notation in the file are very few and are very seldom. Ms. Cerilli: I would appreciate the minis ter getting some of those numbers for me and doing some kind of comparison over the last 10 or so years, even going back that far.

On the same vein, I want to find out if the department has an harassment policy, and ifl could be provided with any kind of a policy, perhaps coming through the civil service, but then also not just dealing between personnel in the department, but also because of the relationship that many of the staff have with tenants and the nature of that relationship where there is, I think, lots of room for conflict between caretakers and tenants and different staff in the department and tenants who are collecting a rent and arrears for rent, and all those kinds of things.

I am wondering if there is a policy that will help guide the staff and if I can get a copy of that policy or if you could describe the nature of that policy here for us today. Mr. Reimer: The employees that work for our Housing would fall under the general guidelines of the

1258 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April I 0, 19 97 harassment policy for all of the government employees. Our department does not have a singularly different or separate harassment policy as a guideline. The guidelines of the Manitoba government employees and the harassment policies that all employees of Manitoba government work for would cover, you know, this particular sector of our government in Housing.

So I can only say that we do have the Employee Assistance Program that has been set up for our employees so that if there is a problem they have something to refer to, but the general guidelines of practice for the government employees would apply to the employees that are under our sector of Housing. * (1 500) Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I might suggest that this is an area where the department would consider some other type of policy dealing with the relationship between staff and tenants just based on the kind of calls that I get.

It is also related to the other area I want to get into now which is training of staff through your Personnel division. I have also had, as I have suggested already today, concerns that staff are not receiving the training that they need in order to carry out their duties, especially with the changing populations that are being housed. The minister himself in his opening statement talked about aging seniors who have a large variety of needs who are living in the housing under his department.

So I am wondering if the minister could explain the types of training programs that are offered through his department for staff and if one of these areas could include more attention to personnel dealing with conflict, dealing with difficult tenants, you know, for caretakers and other staff that are involved with tenants. Mr. Reimer: In dealing with any type of effective department, you have to have a continual program of training, and it is something that has been ongoing with our department.

It has just been pointed out to me, just for example, for the last three years there is an ongoing training program with the institute of property managers, for certified property management programs. There are programs in computer training that we have been involved with. The member is, I believe, concerned about training for people skills, of dealing with-betw een the management and clients in tenant relations and things of that nature. We do set up training programs in that venue through our human resources department.

There is cross-training between various departments so that there is a knowledge of what happens between various other sectors in the department. It is an ongoing program of training. We train utilizing the civil service avenue of getting people involved. There is computer training that is happening, especially with the direction that we are taking in housing with our computer department. There is full­ time training; in fact it has been pointed out to me that we now have a full-time training supervisor that was put on, appointed in late 19 96.

These are all some of things that we in the department feel are very. very necessary, to continue with this type of direction. because if you do not have training and if you do not make the opportunity available for people to be trained in some of the people skills-because of the fact that we are a service department. We are there to serve a clientele, and if you do not have those types of skills. we are at cross­ purposes of trying to make our objectives. So training has and will continue to play an even more important role in our department.

I think it is very, very important that we continue that type of approach to it. So I feel that people skills and people training can have a significant benefit in our department as we proceed. Ms. Cerilli: Still in a similar area dealing with personnel, we have talked a little bit about complaints about staff. but I also get people phoning who compliment staff. particularly the caretakers.

I know there is one example, and this has been brought to the minister's attention as well, where there is one development where they want to keep their caretaker who is currently no longer, I guess, qualified to continue working as the caretaker. So I want to clarify, first of all. the policy with respect to caretakers and their requirement to live onsite, and I am also wanting the minister to confirm the number of people employed by the department that are caretakers and. I guess. the ratio of tenants or units per caretaker, and if there has been any change in that area. -

, April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 59 Mr. Reimer: The idea of having staff onsite is something that we recommend in a lot of our large units. In some of our smaller units, there is the ability that they do not have to live onsite because of the volume that they have to look after. Our contention is that if it is a fairly large complex, the availability of the caretaker to be there in case there is a problem is a very high importance that we put on the contact for the reliance and the comfort of our employees-pardon me, of the tenants in the complex.

Of the number of caretakers, we have 10 7 who are staff caretakers and we have 82 that are on contract for a total of 189 in our present complement of housing. So there is a mix of both within that, but our onsite caretakers are something that we are encouraging in our large complexes because it is a benefit to the residents and, to an extent, the sec urity and the maintenance of our complexes. *( 1 5 10 ) Ms.

Cerilli: So, just to clarify then, this is 189 staff and contract employees that are working just in the Manitoba Housing Authority public housing, or does this also include nonprofit? [interje ction] That is what I thought. But what I was wanting to get at is the policy in this area and if there is policy in this area that guides the department in knowing how big the complex is before they have to have one or more caretakers working there. I am interested in seeing some kind of comparison with the private sector.

I mean, one of the concerns is that Manitoba Housing properties do not have the same kind of ratio that there is in the private sector in terms of having caretakers onsite. Mr. Reimer: We do not have the exact number here in front of us, but we can give you a fairly close guessti mate as to the qualification. We usually insist on, in the large EPHs or the Elderly Persons Housing, that there is a full-time caretaker on. That is a requirement. When units are 40-plus units in a complex, we would want to have a full-time caretaker in a unit like that.

When we look at family units, we look at a complement of about 30 units. If we look at some of the mixed units of various types of accommodations, we look at about a hundred units. So those are approximate, but as to the actual numbers, we would have to go through our files and find out exactly which units, which large apartments have the full-time caretakers in them. Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister saying then that it is a policy that-40 units per full-time caretaker for elderly persons and 30 units per full-time caretaker at the family level, but that is only for the complexes.

You know, this is an area of large concern to the public. I mean, there have been problems, serious unsaf ety, for example, where toddlers have fallen out of windows because screens were not properly maintained, those kinds of issues. The deputy minister is saying that that is not true, so perhaps we can clarify, but I am just trying to draw it to the attention-the importance of this area. Again, I get calls and complaints from tenants that their requests for repairs are not handled expeditiously at times.

I have in front of me, based on our discussion from last year's Estimates, a detailed breakdown of the caretakers' responsibilities. I am also concerned about how many of the caretakers that are working in the Manitoba Housing properties are part time.

The other area I am concerned about is for the single­ family units or the smaller row houses where there is not a large complex, the availability of maintenance and caretaking in those developments, if there is some type of routine way that that is handled, or if it is simply a matter of having tenants fill out the request form and it goes in a pile, and there is the staff that is assigned to that region and they just have to wait until the staff is able to get there. I am sure that there is some type of priori tization that goes on.

You know, if the furnace goes, that would bump up the request in the middle of January. This is an area that I am concerned about, and I just want to have some clarification on what the policy is in those areas. Mr. Reimer: In looking at the whole area of complaints in regard to the tenants and to their particular units or their particular complex and things like that, I guess you have to bring into context the fact that as the complaints come in, there is a priority set on the emergency and immediacy of some of the complaints.

For example, if a cupboard door falls off compared to a fridge going on the fritz, that caretaker or the maintenance people will naturally go to try to get that fridge replaced or restarted or fixed before they go to fix the cabinet door.

12 60 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA April I 0, 1997 There are other considerations that have to come into being too. Sometimes the replacement of certain commodities or certain fixtures or the painting of a certain suite sometimes has to be consi dered in the overall planning of that whole building or a combination of buildings for the efficiencies of contracting it out on a large basis for the best pricing and also into the planning stages of when we can accommodate a lot of the things that can be done.

So sometimes people will put a complaint in on a certain matter and it falls within the area of just the fact that we are looking at replacing it maybe in the short term or maybe in the very immediate future, and it may involve getting an accumulation of some other buildings and look at their priorities and putting it in together so that we can respond in a more efficient way. * (1 520) I should point out to the member that even though I say these things, we still have the availability of a 24- hour emergency number.

The tenant, if there is something that is of a severe nature, we have a 24-hour maintenance person on staff, on call. During the blizzard of just last week, we had people on staff there to be of a helping nature and, as ever, staff responded in a very commendable manner in any type of situation that was brought forth. It is a situation that I think is very commendable of our department in trying to be cogniz ant of some of the concerns that our tenants have. There will always be the situation where people feel we do not respond fast enough or that they feel that the response is not to their satisfaction.

I guess it is all in the matter of

interpretation as to how it is being done, but we respond in a very judicious manner in trying to come to some sort of resolve with their complaints. It is a matter of them recognizing and the individual recognizing that from time to time the priorities of how their severity of problem is interpreted sometimes will dictate the speed of reaction, but, as I say, if it is of an emergency nature and it happens in the middle of the night, we have people there for them. Ms. Cerilli: Again, I do not want to spend too much longer on this area, but I just want to ask specifically two things.

If we can compare the caretaker-staffing ratio per units with MHA to private sector units the same size, how that would compare or-and compare it as well maybe to nonprofits. Compare it to Winnipeg Housing Rehab. The other area I want you to just clarify or focus on is in terms of doing repairs. For example, I remember I had one constituent who called me up and insisted I come over to their suite. They lived in public housing, row housing where there were patio doors. They were told that they would just have to make do with keeping the doors shut with a piece of pipe or a hockey stick.

The door was completely unable to be locked. The locking mechanism in the door handle was completely off, and it had been that way for quite some time. How much of a common occurrence is that, and how is that explained by the ministry? Is the problem that it is an aging housing stock? The way the ministers have described it, the emergenc ies always get put to the top of the list.

So there are so many emergenc ies going because the equipment. the fixtures are so aging that a lot ofthese other situations that require repairs that certainly cause problems and discomfort for tenants are continually put to the bottom of the list. I wonder if the minister could respond to those two things. Mr. Reimer: I do not believe we have figures on the ratio compared to the private sector as to caretakers to units. I think we can try to get as much information that we can in looking at the comparison between the nonprofit units that we have and some of the other things that we can have access to.

We can try to get that information for the member as a point of information. The other item that the member mentioned was regarding the prioritization of repairs. I guess that is always the matter of

interpretation. as she mentioned this. You do not want certain items to always be falling to the bottom of the list. I would hope that maintenance would recognize that there is a responsibility to respond to all requests in a manner that is cognizant of the individual's concern and not totally disregard the client or the resident is totally always reje cted in his or her request for repairs. Sometimes those are the situations that, if they come to my attention-and I must say, I have not had any type of correspondence brought to me along that venue where there was a continual refusal by - -

April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 61 maintenance to repair a certain item-that I would be concerned about it too. I think that if there are inc idents like that, they should be brought forth for attention, either through the member or to myself or by the individ ual. The person has a right to complain. Ms. Cerilli: Still on the topic then of caretakers and caretaking, I want to deal specifically with this issue at 1 10, 120 and 13 0 Markham Road. Some of the tenants there have gone to quite a lot of trouble. I am wondering if the minister is, first of all, familiar with this case.

This is where a caretaker had been living onsite and then endeavoured to purchase a house directly across the street from these three housing developments. I believe that he was under the impression that he would be able to continue as the full-time caretaker, even though he was going to be living directly across the street then in a private dwelling.

I am just wanting to see how the ministry is responding to this particular situation, if that is their understanding, that he was initially under the impression that he could continue on as a full-time caretaker while he was purchasing the home across the street from this housing development. Mr. Reimer: I have been informed of that particular situation that the member is referring to. The individual was well aware that the requirement was that he live onsite. That was a requirement. It was made very clear that this was the position that the Housing department had given to the individual.

The individual, for reasons of his own, decided to buy a home, as the member mentioned, across the street. The direction that was given to him was that our condition was that he stay onsite. As to the arrangements that he may have made possibly with the purchase of the home and the circumstances and scenarios that were involved with why he would purchase the home when he knew he that he had to stay onsite, possibly he was looking at, maybe, renting that home to somebody and something happened, and all of a sudden he had to take possession of it.

I am not privy to exactly everything that transpired as to why he moved off, what the final reason was. But he was given clea r indication that he had to stay on that particular site, because that particular complex warranted having an onsite manager. As to if there may have been extraneous circumstances for him purchasing this home, I can only speculate. Ms. Cerilli: As I understand it, he is going to continue on as even part-time in some other capacity with Manitoba Housing Authority. Is that correct? Mr.

Reimer: No, he is still a full-time caretaker but he will be, I guess for lack of a better word, floating to various locations. He is still retained as a full-time caretaker. * (1 530) Ms. Cerilli: So this is a good example for us to look at in terms of how the vacancies are being filled in the department. I am not sure-if I look at the dates on some of the petitions that I have, it was back in February when this individual was vacating that position as caretaker on Markham Road. So I am wondering how long that position was vacant and what process is being used to fill that vacancy. Mr. Reimer: I apologize.

I was trying to get an update as to that particular location. If the member could repeat that. I am sorry, I apologize. Ms. Cerilli: Sure. I am wanting to get a pic ture, then, of the process that will be used to fill that vacancy for the full-time caretaker on Markham Road. Is it filled now? Are you still in the process of having some type of competition for that position? Will it be filled internally from other people in the department? How long has it been vacant? Mr.

Reimer: Yes, I have been informed that what we would do is inform the other union members within our department of the availability of a move to this particular area. If that was not fulfilled or accomplished through that way, then there would be an open competition or a job ad put in the paper for the position, but we would look in all likelihood within through our existing structure and through the union firstly. I believe that there is a caretaker onsite right now. Now, whether he has been permanently appointed to that position, we would have to find out

12 62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April I 0, 1997 exactly. We do not have our Personnel person at the table here right now. Ms. Cerilli: I will sort of move on to another but related area. We discussed the other day the number of positions that are being filled in an acting capacity in the department, and I am just wanting to clarify if the minister can tell us a little bit more about the amount of mobility in staff turnover in the department. How many of those positions have been filled through an open competition?

How many have been filled through placing someone else who has been, you know, reappointed from the department or in some other fashion, and how many have been filled through an open competition through the civil service? Mr. Reimer: Specific numbers we will have to, you know, go to our Personnel department to get some numbers for the member, but it has been pointed out that we try to look within in a sense and try to fill positions in that way. We have not had that many. In fact it has been poin ted out to me that-I do not know whether we have had any outside hirings in a sense of new people coming in.

They have either come through the internal system or through other ways, but. with caretakers, there is a turnover there. I think I mentioned the other day, when we throw in the number of a 15 percent turnover, that is mainly where the turnover is, in that area. That area there, there are open competitions and ads in the papers placed for those positions. Once you start to get into the management or the level of the system, a lot of it is an internal reorganization and redirection of peoples and their skills.

As to numbers, I guess we would have to get our Personnel person to come back with something for the member. Ms. Cerilli: Again, I am just trying to wrap up this area. Still on the topic of caretakers, I know there was an

article in the paper the other day from the Caretaker Resource Centre, and this is sort of an offshoot of AIM, the Apartment Investors Association of Manitoba. They had a news release a while ago, and I phoned up the fellow there and one of the things that they are now offering is training for caretakers. I am not sure, but it sounds like that is one of the areas that through your own department you have to provide training in.

They are looking at a program, approaching the provincial government Family Services and possibly the City of Winnip eg, I guess as well, of having people on social allowance participate in their program to be trained as caretakers. With the high percentage of tenants who are on social allowance living in Manitoba Housing Authority properties. I am wondering if this is something that the department is aware of; if they are considering looking at some kind of program like this, if that is something they have considered. Mr. Reimer: We are dealing with an association.

The acronym on it is BOMA, which is the Building Owners & Managers Associa tion for the training of caretakers, and this is an association that we feel that we can come to a better understanding and a better working relationship in trying to bring forth training. The association that the member mentioned. I am not that familiar with that organization and I am not sure whether the department is-we are aware of it. but I do not think that we work with them in any type of training programs. * (1 540) Ms.

Cerilli: Okay. just in sort of wrapping up this whole area of discussing the personnel and Executive Support, when looking at the Estimates page 19, quite a number of the areas in this, what I would call senior management and executive administrative area, have had an increase this year: Transportation, $5, 000; Communication has gone up by a couple of thousand; and some of the other areas as we ll. I am wondering how the minister can explain this. I mean, some of the salaries have gone down, but generally there have been a few thousand dollars increased in this area.

It is a concern at the same time where you have made major cuts in programs like SAFER and SAFFR that are going to do the business of what this department is designed to do, and that is to support the housing needs of low­ income Manitobans. You are cutting there, and at the same time there is increased Transportation and Communication funds for senior management in your department. I am wondering if part of that transportation is to provide staff to travel to your staff meetings at the Art Gallery or the Norquay Building; if that is one explanation, or how else you might be able to explain these increases? Mr.

Reimer: In regard to the increase in the communication sector. most of that increase relates to - -

April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 63 the incr ease in the computerization, the telecommunications area of e-mail and things of that nature of the sophistication of being in touch with our people in regard to their maintenance and improvement programs, responding to emergency situations. Communications is something that is increasing and should be really of an increasing nature in a sense of trying to do the job better. Transportation, I can assure the member that there were no buses or no taxis paid for in regard to getting over to the Art Gallery for the meeting with the staff.

They walked because it was not that far, or maybe they got over on their own. So that amount is showing an increase. I can only possibly attribute the price of gasoline and the price of oil to an extent of going up. If the member recalls, last year or years before, gasoline was almost 10 cents a litre cheaper than what we are paying for it now, and we do have to pay a certain amount of allowance for transportation in there. So it is an amount of approximately, I guess it is $5,0 00 that it has gone up. So it is amazing how sometimes those little things can add up. Ms.

Cerilli: I guess I will have to accept that explanation from the minister, but it does seem odd to have that much of a transportation budget increase. I think I said yesterday that I had heard concerns, particularly in the rural areas, about the way that the regions have been reorganized, that maintenance staff in particular are having to do a lot more travelling and running around than they used to under the former structure of Manitoba Housing Authority. That may be something that the minister wants to look into.

That would not I guess directly affect the Transportation line in this division that much, but, you know, it is difficult for the department while they are making such huge cuts to programs as important as public housing, SAF ER, SAFFR, co-op loan program that they are having these kinds of increases in their department for Administration. I do not know if the minister wants to add anything there, but I am going to move on now to discussing some other areas. Mr.

Reimer: I was just going to mention, in the transportation area there have been certain expenditures attributed to that line for the consu ltation with other provinces in some of the effects that are happening with what she is aware of in all the areas of concern that we have for housing. So there would be some added dollars involved with that too. Ms. Cerilli: I want to move on and ask some questions more about the Fin ance and Administration area in the budgeting in the department.

One of the things, it seems like there are quite a few things added in the Estimates book under Fi nance and Administration in the description of activities and objectives and Expected Results, and I guess that is what I am looking at asking some questions about here.

One of the things is reviewing the appropriateness of tax assessment levied against the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation properties and initiate appeals as required-and that sort of struck me after the fiasco in the City of Winnipeg in terms of their Assessment Department-and I am wondering if that has resulted in any significant reassessments and what kind of dollar figure could be attached to that. I have with me the annual report. It is only the annual report from '95-96, and I am assuming that this is the most recent one that is available. So I am going to be referring to this quite a bit.

If the minister can direct me to a line in the annual report that deals with this area of tax assessments, then I would apprecia te that. I am on page 3 5 from that annual report, and I am wondering if that is where I would not expect to find this line. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Reimer: I think what the member is referring to is the appeals process that we are setting up with all our properties in our Manitoba Housing portfolio. One of the things that we have been actively involved with is looking at our assessments.

We are of the opinion that if there is a savings to be realized by looking at our properties and the assessed value that has been put on them and that if there is the ability to appeal some of these assessments, that we should pursue it. We have done this. As pointed out by the member-! can refer her to page 39 of the '95-96 annual report where it does say grants in lieu of taxes, and she can recognize that we have

12 64 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April I 0, 1997 gone down by well over $2 million of a savings in our budgetary considerations. So the appeal process has proven to be of a benefit to the department, and I belie ve that we are still in the process of appealing some of our other buildings and working with the assessment on those too. This is a conscientious decision that we had taken to try to realize some potential savings. * (1 550 ) Ms.

Cerilli: So what the minister is telling me is that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is now saving approximately $2 million annually or $I .5 million in their tax bill to the City of Winnipeg. I just want a little bit more explanation of the nature of what has been involved in these appeals and reassessment. What has led to this $1. 5-million or $2-million saving? Mr. Reimer: This is a very interesting topic because there is a- we work very closely, naturally, with the federal government.

The federal government, in their dealings with some of their properties, have become very, very heavy-handed in a sense, if you want to call it that. They have said that they are only going to pay a certain amount of money for their grants in lieu of taxes and more or less said that is the way it is going to be. What it does is it puts us in a position where we have to be very analytical and critical in our assessment of what our properties are worth and the values that are associa ted with them. This is one of the reasons why we did this reassessment.

I should point out to the member that saving is for our total-[interjection] Province-wide, yes. It is not particularly for the city of Winnip eg where this is happening, because we have properties all over. It has to be realized that the $2-million savings in this book is shared with the federal government, too. So what you see is not necessarily what you get, because the feds take half of our judicious -[inter jection] In our good management and in our proper. So we get dinged for being good managers, and they get the benefit from it. They come along, and they become a flat hand on what we are going to get.

It puts a tremendous burden on our financial analysts in our department to try to come up with a good set of books to work within our parameters of spending. It is a very interesting relationship between the federal government and the province and to which way the feds are going. I know we are going to get into further conversations regarding devolution, and I welcome that part of our Estimates, because I think there are a lot of things that the member for Radisson and I should discuss about this. On this particular item, we do not share totally in that $2-million saving. Ms.

Cerilli: My question, though, is that I want to get a clear understanding of how this $2 million or so was arrived at. I hope I am understanding this correctly where if the amount of taxes you are going to have to pay on a housing property is going to be reduced, that would mean that the assessment on the value of that property would then also have to be reduced. Is that correct and is that what is happening? So actually what we are finding is the sale value or the value being allocated to these properties is being reassessed at a lower amount. Mr.

Reimer: Yes, what has come about is the institution of the ad valorem system of taxation in our province where it is based upon the value of the property in the market. So what was so called built for an example of $3 million, some sort of complex when it was first built. say. maybe about 10 years ago, the only true value on that building right now is what the assessed value is. The only way that you can do an assessment on your building is literally go to that facility, compare it to the market what has been sold so that a number can be arrived at.

That is your basis of assessment, and then your taxes are assessed out of that evaluation. I know the member had referred to very briefly in her opening statements about a drive-by assessment, but what we are doing with all our properties is try to get a proper evaluation on it because it benefits us as a province. If we are going to give grants in lieu, we should be doing it on the property value and the true assessed value-not on the perceived book value of what was first built and how much it cost-and use those figures.

It is a tremendous benefit and a tax saving to the people of Manitoba, but at the same time. as I said before. we have to share that monies that we realize. The federal government benefits on a win-win situation out of what we are doing here in Manitoba. -

April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 65 Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I know I have with me the listing of all the properties in the province. I am assuming that this was done across the board for all the-it is not finished yet-but it is including the entire portfolio of nonprofit, sponsored, and public housing. That is correct; I see you nodding. What I would be interested in finding out is which of the properties have seen a reassessed value? I am sure the department has that information.

I am not expecting to get that right now, but I would be interested in seeing that at some point and to compare it with some of the other information I have from the department. Mr. Reimer: As I pointed out to the member, this is an ongoing scenario that we are reassessing. Not only is it something that we will be doing on a conscientious basis this year, but I think that we have initiated a positive review. I am not saying it will be an annual event, but I think that it will transpire as there is a recognition that there is a perceived imbalance.

The number of units that will be reassessed- I should not say every one of them will be, because there are some that fall within the parameters of reason when it is looked at not only as the value on our books, but we can recognize what is happening in the market. Our department will go through the list that the member has and do a comparison. Where there looks like there is truly an anomaly, those are the ones that will be assessed. We will do that. We look at hopefully some significant savings along the way once the assessment is brought up to date on an ad valorem system of what the building is worth.

Hopefully through computerization and things like that, you can almost get instant access to certain blocks and certain locations and have a comparison spit out of a computer, very similar to what they do with the Real Estate Board right now where you can do a cost analysis of a home on Chestnut Street and what it sells for. We are hopeful that we can be able to do that within our portfolio to get a good comparison. It is an example of modernization that we feel is well worth the effort. * (1 600) Ms. Cerilli: I will look forward to getting that information when it is available to the minister.

Further to this, though, I would be interested in knowing­ looking at what the minister was good enough to send me from questions I asked last year in Estimates is a listing of the social housing units that are being considered for surplus, being declared surplus. I would assume that these properties would certainly have gone through this reassessment process prior to being put on this list.

So I am interested in having that clarified or confirmed that that has gone on and in how many of these properties-! mean, I am working from this list now that is, I guess, a year old, and I will get into a little more detail about this, the changes in this list later. What I am wanting to clarif y now is the properties that are being considered surplus. How many of those have had a reassessed value and if that is something that has been done? Mr. Reimer: What I can give to the member is we would have to look at the list that the member has there and do a comparison. Individ ually, I do not think we have the

schedule of reassessments and the results of reassessmen ts with us at this particular time, and the comparison would be hard to do. It would be strictly on a speculative basis at this time, so those are some of the things that we would have to look into for the member. Ms. Cerilli: Similarly, though you have already referred to the fact that you have had to share this $2 million or so with the federal government, you have taken a closer look at monitoring the federal recoveries.

I am wondering if there has been any dollar figure there where you have saved yourself some money, if you can tell me what that is, and if that is going to be reflected in the annual report anywhere here. Mr. Reimer: I learn a lot from these Estimates myself, you know, and the efficiencies of my department; it is amazing how fast they work sometime. I have just been informed that when we find out that there is a discrepancy, we bill within five days to get our share of the federal monies.

We do it on a very judicious and a speedy way of trying to get as much as we can and as soon as we can from the federal government. I can tell by the enthusiasm of my financial director there that he relishes the fact of trying to get this money back from the feds as soon as he can, so I encourage him to stay on the fast and speedy track. There are a lot of ramifications in dealing with the federal government, but I have been assured that we

12 66 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 10 , 1997 work as fast as we can; ifthere is money owing, we go after it. Ms. Cerilli: Well, I appreciate that, and that is stated clearly in the Estimates booklet including that you want to bill them within five days, but I am just wanting to see if you are showing anywhere, or if you can tell me how much more money you are squeezing out of the federal government through this process. I am wanting to go- Mr. Reimer: It is based upon expenditures.

As we are spending our money, we are either billing back to the federal government, because of the various agreements we have, we are either billing back 25 percent, 50 percent or even 75 percent of the expenditures. So it is a paper trail that speeds up as fast as we can in trying to get our money back. Ms. Cerilli: Another area in that same line is that you are trying also to do the same thing with tenant revenues collections from tenants. I am looking at the annual report from '95-96 at page 38, which shows the revenue from rents.

It shows there approximately $44.5 million-it is hard to see if that is a decimal or a period-f or MHA and then for sponsored housing. It is comparing '95 and '96. I can see that there has been an increase in the revenue from rent, the total revenue. Now, this is total revenue from rent from '95 to '96. I am wondering how you explain that because, I think ifwe also looked at it, we can see, when I also look at the number of properties, for example, there have been in the same period 89 properties that have been lost from the social housing portfolio.

We know that over this time there has been a rent increase, rent geared to income, to 27 percent. I think you can see where I am headed here. I am wanting to do some comparison of, if we looked at the revenue per unit, what are we seeing here? Are we seeing that this is becoming a larger percentage of the revenue from the budget to any great extent? How would you eval uate the increase in this area in terms of the revenue from tenants rent? Mr.

Reimer: One of the things that has to be taken into consideration when you look at rental revenue is the fact that if our occupancy goes up, we are going to realize more revenue. One of the things that we have worked quite diligently at is trying to bring forth-we have units available. Let us try to utilize them. Naturally, if we are renting more units, we are serving more of the need in the community. This is one of the reasons why we would have increased rent. It is not necessarily tied into the fact that we are charging more. In fact we were going to be collecting more because we were filling vacant suites.

I think the member recognizes that vacancies are something that we all try to bring down, because we have got public housing available for individuals in need. If we can fill them, it is going to mean that our revenue collections will go up, but it is not at the expense per se of rentals and the percentage that has gone on. We have stayed fairly consistent. In fact, we have been very consistent in the fact that our rental rates here in Manitoba have stayed at 27 percent for family units and 25 percent for bachelor suites. This has proven to be beneficial.

I would rather try to work on increasing the occupancies of our units than try to increase the percentage for the sake of making more money in my rental units. * (1610 ) We have consistently overall had a vacancy rate of well over 10 to 12 percent, I guess, in all our units but, at the same time. some of our units, our complexes are experiencing vacancies of 25 and 30 percent. Others are right down to nil with very, very little turnover. Ideally, I would like to have 10 0 percent occupancy in our public housing.

That is a tremendous benefit for people in need in the social housing area, plus the fact that it will solidify even more revenue for the sake of maintenance, improvement, and upgrading of our units. I would rather my staff concentrate on filling the units instead of coming to me with a proposal to, say. let us raise it 1 percent or 2 percent. I know the previous minister was of the same opinion, and that she worked very hard in that same type of direction with conscientious efforts and conscientiousness of government. She takes forth that same type of attitude in her new portfolio that she has.

These are some of the benefits of the exposure with Housing and dealing with people that the present minister, after she left this department, she takes forth in her new ministry. These - -

April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 67 are some of the tremendous benefits that we get out of being Minister of Housing. Ms. Cerilli: I am actually glad to hear the minister say that. I think we are going to get into discussing it in more detail. Something I have asked before of this government in these Estimates is their strategy for filling these vacancies. I have the list with me, and I know that that is an ongoing problem, particularly in the inner city of Winnipeg.

I am glad that his focus is on filling those vacancies rather than continuing to inc rease the rent geared to income paid by these tenants. I am still wanting to ask, if we look at 1997 and compare that to the other two figures in the annual report that I have here, what is the rent revenue now this year- separating it out again if you can-or the total Manitoba Housing Authority managed, as well as the sponsored and nonprofits? Basically, what we are seeing here is that you are getting an additional almost $2 million in rent from low-income Manitobans living in Manitoba housing properties.

We know that that is an increase because there are fewer properties and rental units available. I do not think your vacancy rates have improved since then. Basically, that is what we are able to see. Over $2 million in that '96 over '95 year has come from low­ income Manitobans' rent for Manitoba Housing Authority. Mr. Reimer: I have been informed in looking at-for 1997, naturally we are looking at Estimates at this particular time because of the fiscal year, but I would hope that the trend that we are establishing to try to fill these units would continue.

I would think that we would look at, at least, trying to match this amount in 1997 to continue this type of trend of filling units and to try to raise revenue this way. I guess, as 1997 unfolds, we will have a better idea six or nine months or further down into our budgetary year in knowing how it is all transpiring for our rental revenue. I would think that the trend that we have started, hopefully, we can still continue to expand on that type of direction with our revenues. I can only guessti mate at this particular time as to how it will finally come out for 1997. Ms. Cerilli: Okay.

Maybe then tell me what your guesstimate was for '96, and I can compare for myself, if we are going to hit that, if you think that we are going to reach that level. I do not have my Estimates book with me from last year. Mr. Reimer: In dealing with the budgetary consi derations, we do not have that figure with us. Ms. Cerilli: It is in last year's Estimates. Mr. Reimer: Yes, we do not have one with us, so we cannot look at it that way. We can get it for the member as to what was the estimate when we were doing the budget at that time. Ms.

Cerilli: I guess what I am trying to get at here in all of this is to try and determine how much of this is attributed to the increase in rent over the years and how much of this is going to be attributed to the trend that the minister is talking about where they are filling these vacancies. I have a concern about the levels of the rent being charged on these properties. We have discussed that before. I can appreciate this is difficult to determine, but you have got an estimate here for $57.5 million. In order to arrive at that, you have had to do some of these kinds of calculations in the department.

How are you dealing with this? Then I am going to get into asking a little bit more about the vacanc ies. Mr. Reimer: I can point out to the member on page 43, I think we are both looking at that same line there regarding the rental revenue. The estimate is just over $57 million, almost $57.6 million. So it does show again an increase of revenue that we will be looking at.

We still have that type of optimism and direction that we can accomplish these types of revenues just by being a little bit more, filling of our units and making it more attractive for people to get into the rental field that we have available for them. It was just pointed out to me that that is where our estimate for 1997-98 is. Ms. Cerilli: What I am trying to get at is, I am just realizing after I asked the last question, that you have not had a rent increase since 1995.

So the big jump-and I do not know whether there is a chart in the annual report that will show this-the incr ease would have occurred between '93 and '95, when there was an increase by 2 percen t in the rent geared to income.

12 68 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April lO, 1997 What I am finding kind of curious is that, if you are continuing to project these increases in rent revenue, you are not antici pating any additional percentage of RGI. You are actually offloading some of your stock; maybe that surplus is not filled anyway. Then I guess what we should be talking about is this strategy that you have for filling these vaca ncies. I have with me a listing of what the vacancies are for the entire province in both Winnipeg and the rural areas.

I am wanting to get you to sort of update me on this area then of what kind of progress has been made. Compared to last year then, how many more suites have you filled over the Estimates from last year, from when I got this document? *( 16 20) Mr. Reimer: One of the things that we have instituted to try to address the vacancy rates in the various units is we have initiated a marketing team. We have two ladies that are marketing our units. They took on, as a task, 60 1 Osborne Street. I believe it is called Fred Tipping Place. When they went into there, there were 37 vacancies.

There are now only three vacancies in that unit. That was done within 60 days, from what I am led to believe. They have just gone over to 12 5 Carriage Road, and they have filled five units in there. The team is proving to be fairly successful in their endeavours, so we are looking at expanding that marketing team, of going out and looking at other areas of units that can warrant their attention. These are some of the things that we are doing in trying to make the availability of our units more open for rental.

So marketing them and getting them exposed to the people that can use them is something that can be of a benefit to the utilization. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) As I mentioned, when you look at 60 I Osborne, in a 60-day period I guess it was, approximately a 60-day period, renting 34 units, I would think that they are doing a fairly good job for us. Hopefully, we can even do a better job. Ms. Cerilli: It is interesting. I know, I spent quite a bit of time on this last year in Estimates as well talking about the strategy that is going to be employed. Interestingly, you have developed something.

I am curious to find out what exactly they are doing that is new with this marketing team, what approach they are taking. I am also curious to find out how it is you are sele cting these two, first of all, and how you have prioritized other complexes for this management marketing team. I should say, to work in. I have got this list with me that I received from April 30, '96 which has all the projects, I guess, with a 10 percent or more vacancy rate. A lot of these include the big ones-Flora Place. Gilbert Park.

Lord Selkirk Park, the ones on Ross and Pacific. that are sort of the larger problem blocks where there is a really high vacancy rate. So, is there going to be a different type of strategy to try and deal with the problems in those vacanc ies? How is the department going to proceed? I have asked a number of questions there; I will be patient. Mr. Reimer: I think I will try one at a time. One of the criteria in looking at the marketing team was to look at areas where there was a high vacancy rate, try to work within them and try to fill these units.

The team will look almost on a project-by-pr oject area and try to come to some sort of analysis as to where they will move next. It should be pointed out too that under the selection criteria prior. we have changed some of the requirements.

Now, if a person was wanting a one-bedroom unit, and we could not particularly fill that or find that particular person a one-bedroom unit. but there was a two-bedroom unit that was available, we have said. let us utilize that unit and get that person into it. so that we do not discriminate against the waiting and waiting for that person to move in a particular complex, just because he or she only is qualified or eligible for a one­ bedroom unit. If there is a two-bedroom unit available, let us get them in there, and let us try to accommodate them so that they can live in that particular area.

So we have changed that. That has increased the occupancy rate. I think that it is a common-sense decision. I mean, just because that person under the criteria can only live in a one-bedroom-[i nterjection] No, a common-sense decision. If that person, because of his or her situation only qualifies for a one-. and there is a two-bedroom - -

, April 10 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 69 apartment in there, and they are waiting and waiting, let us try to accommodate them. So we have done that too. It has proven to be quite beneficial. It makes for a better relationship with the tenant, because that person then is happier to be in that location, and in all likelihood, he or she is going to prove to be a good tenant for us. Ms. Cerilli: I think I will take the member for Burrows' (Mr. Martindale) suggestion and deal with these issues one at a time.

So you are telling me a little bit more about the strategy that is being used with this marketing team. One of the things is that you have targeted some of these buildings which have higher vacancy rates, and you are of fering people two­ bedroom units, I am assuming you mean then at a one­ bedroom rate. Mr. Reimer: That is right. Ms. Cerilli: And that is increasing the occupancy. The minister has confirmed that that is correct, so that is one question answered. The other part of it, I was asking what are you planning to do next, or which developments are you planning to deal with next?

Do you have a list of the ones that have been prioritized? Mr. Reimer: Other areas that we will be concentrating on are trying to fill vacancies in I 0 I Marion, 515 Elgin A venue and also 269 Dufferin A venue. If we can realize additional savings in these areas, we will also hopefully fill up the occ upancy in there. We feel that, as pointed out, as mentioned, regarding the one­ bedroom units and moving into two bedroom, if there is no waiting list on those two bedrooms, we are going to move the people in there. Ms.

Cerilli: There are all sorts of questions we could ask about this, but I am realizing that we have to, I think, pick up the pace here a bit. I am wondering, then, if you have done some accounting to look at the cost that is being incurred from this approach or if you are just considering it is better to have it filled at the lower rate rather than not having it filled at all, and if there are some that you are filling through this approach at the regular rate. The other thing is how it is that the marketing team is identifying the tenants or the prospective tenants. * (I 630) Mr.

Reimer: One of the ways that this team I referred to is trying to fill up these units is they have become very innovative in their approach to try to fill these units, and I have to give them a lot of compliments on their initiatives. They have utilized such things as a neighbourhood drop in advertising, that there are vacancies at such and such a location. They are working with social workers in the area, making known that there are units available at such and such an address. They have even contacted the Department of Health, letting them know that there is availability of certain units in certain areas.

We have put ads, from what I understand, in the seniors' papers, which has proven to be very beneficial in getting inquiries to move into our units. We have also put into the neighbourhood papers an ad with this marketing team. There have been personal solicitations in the neighbourhood by this team in trying to accommodate people to move into the units. It has become almost a full-court press in a sense of trying to get people involved with moving into our social housing. It is proving to be quite beneficial. As I say, I compliment the teams and the success of it. Now we are looking at even expanding that team.

So it shows that there is good initiative there, and we are getting some positive results out of it. Ms. Cerilli: The last part of my question in that area was the plan then for the developments that are really more complex in their problems and probably going to be more difficult. Perhaps the strategy that the minister has described worked to some extent, but when we look at Lord Selkirk Park and some of those other developments that I listed earlier, that strategy will not be enough.

I am wondering, you know, what is the cost to the Housing Authority and the department, of having those vacancies continue over the years for those developments, like Lord Selkirk Park, I think now is almost 50 percent vacant, so I guess again I got a two­ part question. I am wanting to find out the strategy for those kind of areas and if that has been given any attention as of yet

12 70 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANI TOBA April 10 , 1997 and to look at what the losses have been. Someone has actually suggested to me that when there are vacancies in some of these units-and I am not sure if they are meaning with public housing or with some of the social housing, the sponsored nonprofits-the department may not necessarily be losing money by not filling the suites because then they are not having to pay a subsidy. So I am wondering if you can clarify that as well. Mr.

Reimer: I think that the range of question that the member brought up is worthy of a fair amount of disc ussion in a sense, because I share with her the concern that to have good public housing, one of the very first components and one of the very primary components of it, because we are dealing, to a large extent, with seniors, is the fact of community safety. And, if there is community safety or a sense of safety within a community, seniors will feel comfortable into moving into that area and being part of our public housing portfolio.

The one area that the member mentioned, Selkirk Park, there is no doubt about it, that area is going to need some sort of special consideration or certain considerations or possibly even a redirection of how we collect rent or how we charge rent in that area, because it is becoming a very difficult place to fill with people that have got a sense of community. Somehow we have got to work closer with that community in trying to bring a resolve on it, not only in Lord Selkirk Park, but there are other areas that hopefully we do not develop that same type of situation.

I think the member and I share the same concerns in trying to get tenant associa tions involved with that. I know she and I have had some good discussions on that and I agree with her almost 100 percent in what she has mentioned as to the viability and the direction that should com