Manitoba Hansard — 22 May 1996 (Sitting 38A, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-38a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 38A- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 22, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency J>arty ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.DP. DOER, Gary Concordia N D P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DYCK, Peter Pembina PC ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside p C. ERNST, Jim, Hon.

Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HELWER, Edward Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATH LIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N D P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N D P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West PC McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne NDP MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEWMAN, David Riel PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie p C. PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PITURA, Frank Morris PC PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights PC REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis Gladstone PC SALE, Tim Crescentwood NDP SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.DP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P. C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere PC TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC. WOWCHUK, Rosano Swan River NDP

2423 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 22, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Telephone System Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to pr esent the petition of Ardythe Basham, R. Reisel, Jason Kircher and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) not to sell the Manitoba Telephone System. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 199 5, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THA T previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 199 5, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services.

24 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1996 Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Selkiik (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and TH AT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this changt·; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. *

(1335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laur endeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible fo r the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1995 Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. -

May 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2425 Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Departmental Estimates for Manitoba Housing for 1996-97. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates, 1996-97, for the Department ofJustice. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 35-The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that leave be given to introduce Bill 35, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les services a l'enfant et a la famille), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have this afternoon eighty-four Grades 7, 8 and 9 students from Kleefeld School under the direction of Kirk Gorham. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger). Also, we have forty-two Grade 9 students from Isaac Newton School under the direction of Jane Lower.

This scho ol is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Headingley Correctional Institution Riot Cleanup Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Close to four weeks ago, the Minister of Justice promised Ma nitobans-in fact, promised Canadians-that inmates responsible for the riot at the Headingley jail would clean up the jail and repair the jail as part of their responsibility.

I would like to ask the Premier, can he inform Manitobans today how many inmates responsible for the Headingley riot have cleaned up the Headingley jail to date? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as the member knows, there was a decision taken to, first of all, clean up debris which may pose a security risk. That was done by a professional group of cleaners. However, I am happy to tell Manitobans that it is my understanding the first inmate crew is now working at Headingley today. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Justice told Manitobans on April30 and April 28 that inmates would repair the jail and clean up the jail, the rioters would clean up the jail as early as today or at the latest at the end of the week. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), again, in light of the fact that the majority of the work has been done by contract companies, in fact no work up until last night was done by the inmates responsible, how can the Premier allow a Minister of Justice to make one promise to the public that inmates responsible will clean up when in fact the truth is that the contract companies have cleaned up and inmates have not cleaned up pursuant to the minister's promise that they would clean up as early as today, on April 28, or by the end of the week, on April 30? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): The member, in his question, reveals the truth of the old adage that it takes very little skill to tear down. The fact of the matter is that the damage caused in the ins titution at Headingley did not take a tremendous amount of skill to be caused. There is not a lot of skill among those inmates who caused that damage. The reality is that there are Manitobans with skills and those people have been used extensively in the repairs to date. The reality is also that our department has been working in co-operation with Corrections to establish

2426 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1996 repairs and a

schedule of repairs. That

schedule of repairs involves, wherever possible, the use of inmates' skills, however limited they may be. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact that the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey) went on national TV saying that the inmates would repair the jail immediately today or by the end of the week, in light of the fact that the Minister of Justice said that the deployment of staffing for security levels at the jail was not an issue, which we know not to be true, in light of the fact the Minister of Justice has said that temporary absences did not accelerate after the riot, which we also know not to be true, in light of the fact that every time the minister talks about barrier walls, we know they were taken out-the Minister of Justice has told Manitobans that they were not taken out-I would like to ask the Premier, when is he going to fire the Minister of Justice so we can have a Minister of Justice who will tell the truth about the safety of Manitobans?

Bon. Gar y Filmon (Premier): I know the member opposite wants to make political hay out of this issue, but the fact of the matter is that the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Government Services are doing the things that those who expressed concerns about the corrections system and the corrections institutions wanted to be assured of They wanted to be assured that they were in safe circumstances. We had extensive consultations with the guards. We had extensive consultations with the union, and the procedures we are following are to do a number of things.

One is to restore the institution to :its proper form so that we can ensure the safety and security, both of those who are incarcerated there and those who must work there. We are doing what we can to ensure that we are making use of the limited skills and abilities of those who are in those institutions as part of the process. The member opposite has been told that there are inmates working in the institution today- An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Filmon: Working today, Madam Speaker, in that Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I know the members opposite are very exercised because they are not able to make the kind of political hay that they would wish to on this issue. The ministers of the government are ensuring that they abide by the responsible thing. Members opposite do not have to be responsible; they can just make political hay. We have ministers who are responsible and are following a procedure that is leading to-[interjection] I think that members opposite do not want an answer to this question. Headingley Correctional Institution Early Release-Sexual Off enders Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Last week the minister said that she asked for a full report about the inmates' release following the Headingley jail riot and that that report be on her desk on Thursday morning. Then yesterday the minister said in this Chamber, contradicting her earlier statements, that because of the riot three sex offenders were released. My question to the minister is, would she conftrm or deny information given to us that this number is also untrue? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have been dealing with the issues as they have been presented, answering the questions. I had a series of questions posed regarding some inmates. In fact, I believe the member across the way put wrong information forward, speaking about four inmates, and then I had to spend the day clearing up in fact what the release procedures were and why and how these inmates were released.

So I was speaking as I spoke on Friday about three inmates who were released under circumstances at the end of sentence and one inmate who was released on temporary absence. institution. The member opposite may have wished to I understand the member across the way had that all have it happen sooner. That is- wrong. -

May 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2427 * (13 45) Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who should understand the difference between the names Peter Warren and Gord Mackintosh, confirm infonnation given to this House that the number of sex offenders released because of the riot was not three, but almost four times that number? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, yesterday, I was speaking about inm ates who were raised-they were actually raised by name. The member was on the other end of the phone, all-a greeing, to my knowledge, with a radio host.

That infonnation was not correct; that was the infonnation I was clarifying yesterday. I will have to check into infonnation regarding how many individuals may have been released either as temporary absences or at end of sentence to find out that number. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who has had this infonnation apparently on her desk since Thursday, simply confirm our infonnation? She has the details that only one of these 11, not three, sex offenders had completed his programming, two refused outright and four had dropped out. Just do the job. Give us the numbers. She has them. Mr s.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I will not conflnn infonnation which comes from the member opposite because the member opposite has daily put infonnation which, in fact, to the people of Manitoba has been scandalous. He has put scandalous infonnation forward. He has put totally wrong infonnation forward. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order.

The minister was asked a question that was very clear in terms of asking for this infonnation, and this minister of all ministers should not talk about "scandalous." The only scandal is the fact that this minister cannot answer a straight question on a very serious matter, the Headingley riot. I would like to ask you to bring her to order and ask her to answer the questions that are being asked by the people of Manitoba. Madam Speaker: On the point of the order, I believe that the honourable minister was attempting to respond to the question by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh), but I would remind the honourable minister to make sure that her response deals with the question asked and is as brief as possible. * * * Mrs. Vodrey: As I said, I have brought forward information as it has come to me. I have brought forward infonnation that has been required, in particular, to clarify the wrong information brought forward by the member for St. Johns. Headingley Correctional Institution Early Release-Sexual Offen ders Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): My questions, too, are for the Minister of Justice.

While my side of the House respects compassion, we also value public safety and we now learn that, contrary to the infonnation of ye sterday, as many as 11 sexual offenders, only one of whom has taken the counselling necessary for early rel ease, were released after the Headingley riot. Could the minister tell us whether any of these inmates had been incarcerated for offences against children? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As I said to the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), I will look into and gather infonn ation regarding the allegations the member has brought forward.

However, let me say that the only question ever received from members across the House regarding public safety was whether or not there were enough toys at Portage Correctional Institution. Ms. Mc Giff ord: Madam Speaker, were the names of any of the released offenders forwarded to the Community Notification Advisory Conunittee? Mrs. Vodrey: I am pleased that the member references the Community Notification Conunittee, a conunittee which her side of the House said was useless, a committee which her side of the House never agreed with, a conunittee which the member for St.

Johns publicly disparaged when their report was tabled.

2428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 However, I am very pleased that our governm ent did set up the Comm unity Notification Committee,. and I will check and see if they have had any references following the Headingley riot. * (1 350) Ms. McGiff ord: On what basis can the minister give this House assurance that these early releases do not pose a danger to our comm unity, or in other wor ds, what supervision and programming has the minister made available to the community and to these released offenders? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the members seem to find it difficult that I will in fact go and find the inf ormation, make sure I have accurate inf ommtion and bring it back. The difficulty from their side of the House is that they just continually say whatever they feel like and hope that it makes a story. What I have said is I will go and I will check on any inmates who lmve been released who may have been incarcerated for sexual offences, and I will find out whether or not those inmates were in fact rel eased on temporary absences or whether or not they were released at the end of sentence .

As the memb er for Osborne knows as well-and we spoke about it in Estimates last year, I am sure we will again this year-there is programming both within the institution and outside of the institution. I am sure the member also knows that when a person's sentence is up, then their sentence is up. That is what the court imposes; that is what we are dealing with. Teaching Prof ession Collective Bargaining Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, four months ago the Minister of Educati on proposed strike lockout provisions in Manitoba education.

Today, she issues a press release entitled Manitoba Students to be Protected from Strike Lockout s, and the great protector, of course, will be this same Minister of Edu cation. I think it offers new highs for Tory scriptwrite rs. We could look forward to: Premier stays home; Minister of Justice tells it straight; Minister of Health answers questions; or even, Minister of Finance balances budget. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourab le member for Wolsel ey have a question? Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Education confirm that her government's policy is to con tinue to reduce the funding for public education and then to say, as she has done today to the province's 12 ,000 teachers, that the consequences of that, those fundamental issues that those teachers face every day in the classroom, can no longer be brought to their own negotiating table? Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, a new headline might be, NDP gets facts straight, because I defY the member anywhere to ever fmd me making a statement that what this government was proposing was strike. What this government did was put out a document that said-[interjection] I would like to answer the question. May I have them be quiet so I can answer. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask for the co-operation of all members in this Chamber to observe our rules and to ensure that we have decorum, particularly during Question Period. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I haYe to make a corre ction because we did in fact put out fiye proposals, one of which was strike lockout, for considerati on. We did not promote any one of those propo sals, and we made it clear in our original release of the document and in any statements made since then that we had no preconceiYed notion as to which of those proposals might be one acceptable to Manitobans. Further, we made it Yei}, very clear that we were soli citing other suggestions as well.

One of the other proposals we had in that document was a modified form of binding arbitration which we also did not promote but which indeed ·we finally did accept as the one we are going to accept. So the member is wrong when she says we were promoting strike. We never did. * (1 355) Ms.

Friesen: Does the Minister of Education see any inconsistency, even hypocri sy, in requiring the incorporation of ability to pay into teacher bargaining and at the same time refusing as she does daily in this House to accept any responsibility, refusing to be account able for the years of systematic reduction of public funds to public education in Manitoba? -

May 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2429 Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I point out, with respect, that funding to education has risen from $660 million to $745 million over the time that we have been in office. I also point out that we have included money now coming from Health, some $450,000 this year for special needs assistance in the classroom, some $250,000 going into Family Services to train paraprofessionals to help special needs students in the classroom and a lot of other things of that nature that have gone into education.

I also indicate, Madam Speaker, that the strike lockout that she referred to earlier was something that the Manitoba Association of School Trustees said, that even though they did not like it, they would be willing to live with that rather than have to endure another year of bargaining where their consistent arguments on ability to pay were not listened to and not allowed to be listened to by the arbitration board. Arbitration panels, as you know, have traditionally said that school boards have unlimited ability to pay because they can always raise taxes to any amount required.

That was the problem that the boards had; that is the problem we have now addressed for them, a 1 0-year-old problem that trustees could not cope with because it was imposed upon them by the province. That inequity we are now going to correct. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Education tell us, in determining ability to pay, whether trustees and teachers are to believe her own document which relegates Manitoba to-Manitoba's economic output ranks from sixth to eighth compared to other provinces, or are we to believe the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) in his Budget Address which claims that Manitoba's economy is steamrollering ahead? Mrs. Mcintos h: Madam Speaker, I take it from the member's comments that she believes boards should pay whatever is requested regardless of any ability to pay, and I feel that that basic problem is one that they really have had explained to them. I am disappointed that they still believe that school boards do have unlimited ability to pay just because they can keep raising taxes to a limit that has no ceiling to it.

I would ask her, for the sake of everybody involved in education, if she does not want to see massive teacher layoffs, if she does not want to see school boards have their expenditures go increasingly to things other than progranun ing, which she says she supports that she- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition Bouse Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, our rules are very clear in terms of answers to questions, and this minister is not following any of our rules. She is not being relevant, she is not being brief or to the point.

I would like to ask that you call her to order and also perhaps remind the minister that when you do stand, she is supposed to conclude her answers, because she has been once again in this Question Period standing for significant periods of time, which comes out of Question Period time, after you have stood to ask her to finish her rather lengthy answers to our questions. Madam Speaker: On the point of order by the honourable member for Thompson, the honourable minis ter had not consumed the time allowed for her response.

That is why I was not on my feet and, in my opinion, the minister was responding to the question asked. *

(1400) Video Lottery Terminals Reduction Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Premier. As the province has seen hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue coming in from gambling, the Liberal Party has been very strong in trying to get this government to recognize the social negative impact of gambling. In fact, in excess of 35,000 Manitobans have a very serious problem with gambling, and that is even greater when you take into account family and friends that is having an impact on.

My question to the Premier is, does the Premier have any plans whatsoever to reduce the number of VLT machines in our rural and urban communities? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I fmd it ironic, or as my former colleague from Morris used to say, passing strange to have this question from the member for Inkster when he not too long ago, when running for the leadership of the Liberal Party, promised

2430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1996 to triple the number of casinos in this province if he were the leader of a party and government in this province. Here he was, outwardly promoting more gambling in this province as a major plank in his platform for leadership, and now he is asking about reducing gambling. It does not make sense, but then again neither does the member for Inkster. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the question is fairly straightforward and we hope that the Premier can actually answer the question.

Does this government have any intentions of reducing the number of VL Ts in rural Manitoba and urban centres? Is there any intention of this government to do that? Mr. Filmon: My advice to the member for Inkster is to just stay tuned. The fact is that we are in the process of putting together our policy response to the recommendations of the Desjardins commission and I did indicate at the time the commission was appointed that we would consider very carefully the recommendations from their report. Those recommendations have not yet been fully responded to, and I just invite him to stay tuned.

Gaming Government Strategy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Premier then indicate to the House some sort of a time frame that will allow us to get some understanding of exactly what sort of a gaming policy this government has, that it is not ad hoc policy making from this government? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I think the best example or evidence of the fact that it is not ad hoc is that we are taking time to consider our response, that the Minister res ponsible for Lotteries (Mr.Stefanson) is preparing analyses that will lead to decisions, policy changes and recommendations, and we will therefore make those decisions over the course of the foreseeable future. As soon as those decisions are made they will be communicated to this House and to the public. Headingley Correctional Institution Temporary Absences Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice.

On the day following the He adingley riot the mmister went out there and apparently took control, was flailing around and was telling people what to do and when. In light of that, I would like the minister to tell Manitobans, who made the decision to release prisoners, and would she confirm that she ordered an emergency temporary absence list to be dra\\n up even before the riot, indeed, in the event of a strike by correctional officers? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I have said in the past. the decisions which were made were made by professional correctional officers. I have said that from the very beginning. I said it yesterday. I said it last week and I am saying it again today. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minster then confirm to Manitobans that she has no authority over her staff and her department. and did she not know who was on the T.A. list or did she just not care? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker. the only person who does not care in this House is the member for St.

Johns who has continued to put information on the record which has often been \Hong, totally \\Tong. I think many Manitobans have now just decided that they do not pay attention to him an�more. I can tell you that again the decisions were made based upon the criteria of eligibility which was time served and then a criteria based on. for those who had served time, a criteria which Corrections uses on a regular basis that deals with issues such as employability. the place the person might leave. what the person is in the institution for.

Madam Speaker. if I were the one very specifically making those decisions, then he would claim that was political interference. The decisions are made by professional correctional officers. Riot Cleanup Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker. would the minister, who does not understand the difference between interference and responsibility, tell this House why she made the promise in front of -

May 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2431 Headingley jail that the inmates will repair the institution when there are a lack of skills there, there is a danger to the public and she had no authority to make such a statement? Why did she make such a statement without inquiries and consultation? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the reason that we will have inmates working within the institution to repair the damage, to prepare the institution for people to move back in, is because inmates have to bear some responsibility for the damage caused.

We believe that is, in fact, what Manitobans expect. It is what people expect within their families. Manitobans had a right to expect that to occur. So that is the basis for saying that inmates should be the ones who do some of the repair work within the institution to prepare that institution to be reinhabited. That is exactly the path that the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) and I have been on-in working with that minister who has been drawing up a list of tasks that inmates will participate in and, to my knowledge, have begun participating in.

Bala nced Budg et Legisla tion Reduction of Ministers' Salaries Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. His governm ent asked for a mandate in the last election based on its balanced budget legislation that included pay cuts for ministers if deficits occur. In the Public Accounts committee on May 10, the Provincial Auditor indicated that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) should not have applied a one-time $145-rnillion special lotteries transfer to the 1995-96 fiscal year, so that the surplus projected to be $120 million would in fact be a substantial deficit.

In keeping with the requirements of the balanced budget legislation which imposes penalties for deficits, will the Premier arrange to reduce ministers' salaries by 20 percent? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I cannot believe the hypocrisy of the members opposite who spend all of their time urging the government to spend more money on health care, spend more money on educ ation, spend more money on social services, spend more money on everything and then, at the same time, want to try and support a balanced budget. They did not support the legislation.

They voted against the legislation, and now here they are as the great supporters and defenders of balanced budget legislation. I cannot believe the hypocrisy. *

(1410) Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Premier confirm that the revenue from the sale of McKenzie Seeds which occurred on December 20, 1994, was transferred to the 1995-96 budget to help show a fictitious surplus and that at the last Public Accounts committee meeting the Provincial Auditor indicated that those revenues should have been in the 1994 fiscal period and not in 1995-96? Will the Premier confirm that his government improperly transferred revenues from 1994 to 1995 for election purposes? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, the only thing fictitious in this House is the economic statistics that are brought forward by the member for Brandon East. I would like to read, in part, from a memo from the Acting Provincial Auditor, a memo dated May 21, which was yesterday. It is to the Comptroller of the Department of Finance. It says: As we discussed earlier today, I would like to summ arize the position of the Provincial Auditor's office regarding the accounting policy for lottery revenues recorded in the operating fund.

One, consistent with our recommendation in our 1994-95 report to the Legislative Assembly, we believe the full accrual basis for recog nizing lottery revenue in the operating fund is the most appropriate basis. We are pleased that the government supports this position and plans to initiate the necessary changes in 1996-97. Our report to the Legislative Assembly for 1995-96 will provide updated comments on this recommendation that reflect our agreement on this issue.

Nwnber two: Because the balanced budget legislation is based on the March 31, 1995, accounting policies of the operating fund and our Auditor's Report thereon does not include a reservation regarding the accounting policy

2432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1996 for lottery revenues, we are prepared to issue our opinion for the 1995-96 operating fund without reservation for the accounting treatment of lottery revenues. Signed, Warren Johnson. I table this for the information of members opposite. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Premier not accept his responsibility and acknowledge that indeed he did have a deficit in 1995-96 and that his ministers should take a pay cut in light of the report of the Dominion Bond Rating Service?

That report said that in 1995-96 the government had a large deficit and not a surplus, for the same reasons that the Provincial Auditor gave in the committee meeting. Will the Premier do the honourable thing and reduce the salaries by 20 percent? Mr. Filmon: I have just read the comments of the Provincial Auditor that refute directly the assertions of the member for Brandon East. He says that they will have an unreserved approval of the presentation of the surplus and of the accounts of the provincial government. That is the definitive word, the word that they seek.

Whenever they want an opinion. they say call in the Provincial Auditor and get the Provincial Auditor to take a look at it. That is exactly what has happened, and he refutes the position of the member for Brandon East. He absolutely refutes the position of the member for Brandon East, so I rest my case. Balanced Budg et Legislation Reduction of Ministers' Salaries Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, that is not a case that is going to rest very well with Manitobans, because they know the hypocrisy of a government that promised a balanced budget, that a Dommion Bond Rating agency and the Provincial Auditor, contrary to what the Premier now says, indicated that money was improperly accounted for under standard accounting processes, and the government changed their accounting processes for '96-97 precisely because they recognized it was improper.

This is the government that said, no, we will not sell MTS; no, we will not privatize health care; no, we will not cut Pharmacare, but, yes, we will balance our budget. Will this Premier not acknowledge that this balanced budget is a sham and reduce the salaries of his cabinet? Ron. Gary Filmon (Premier): Because the member for Crescentwood has difficulty understanding, I will repeat.

From the words of the Acting Provincial Auditor: Because the balanced budget legislation is based on the March 31, 199 5, accounting policies of the operating fund and our Auditor's Report thereon does not include a reservation regarding the accounting policy for lottery revenues, we are prepared to issue our opinion for the 199 5-96 operating fund without reservation for the accounting treatment of lottery revenues. Signed, Warren Johnson. Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood is wrong. He was \\Tong when he criticized the balanced budget legislation: he is \\Tong today.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood. \\ith a n:ry short supplementary question. Mr . Sale: Madam Speaker, whom does the Premier really expect Manitobans to believe. an accounting profession that says that it is improper to treat revenue in the way that it has been treated in the past-and that is why they changed it this year-a Dominion Bond Rating agency or a Premier in the middle of an election campaign who made a promise he could not keep') Mr .

Filmon: Madam Speaker. every time the member opposite wants to criticize one of the decisions we make with respect to funding for health care. with respect to funding for social sen·ices. with respect to funding for education, he says it is because of the balanced budget legislation, the fact that we are balancing our budget is stopping us from providing those extra funds that he would provide if he were in government. Now, when the Pronncial Auditor confirms that what we are doing is in accordance with the balanced budget legislation, he ignores it and he makes up some other argument that is good in his mm mind.

Madam Speaker, he was incompetent when he worked for the government and he is incompetent today. and that is exactly where he stands. *

(1420) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. The Premier once - -

May 22, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2433 again is, I believe, engaging in comments that are not parliamentary. I ask you to review his comments and ask the Premier for once to answer questions without stooping to the kind of personal insults that he seems to enjoy. That has no place in the Chamber. I would like to ask you to once again ask the Premier to withdraw his comments. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. Time after time after time in this House members opposite, including the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh), even today, have referred to ministers on this side as being incompetent, and they have said that without any sanction. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Madam Speaker: On the point of order by the honourable member for Thompson, indeed I will take the point under advisement and I will report back to the House if necessary. * * * Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Ramah Hebrew School Mr.

Mike Radcliffe (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the accomplishments of the Ramah Hebrew School in my constituency of River Heights. Ramah Hebrew School has been in River Heights since 195 8 and has played an important and unique role in both the Jewish community and our community as a whole. The school belongs to the Shaarey Zedek Synagogue and is a part of the Jewish school board. Ramah Hebrew School teaches approximately 200 in both preschool and elementary programs ranging in age from three-year-olds to Grade 6.

Half the school day is used for teaching the provincial curriculum and the other half is reserved for the Hebrew language schooling. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Last year the Grade 3 class at the school was honoured with a visit by Premier Filmon which was held in conjunction with Manitoba's 125th birthday celebrations. The Premier and I were quite taken with how bright and verbal the students were and how this unique form of education has instilled a strong sense of community in our children at such a young age. This will be Ramah's last year in River Heights.

Next year the school will be operating out of the Asper Community Campus in Tuxedo together with a number of Jewish educational and cultural organizations. I would ask all honourable members to join with me in wishing Ramah Hebrew School all the best in their new and improved facilities in the Asper Community Campus. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Winnipeg Police Association Annual Cha rity Ball Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Mr. Deputy Speaker, today I rise to make mention of the fine work done by the Winnipeg Police Association.

On Saturday, May 18, I attended the 72nd annual charity ball of the Winnipeg Police Association. The proceeds from this year's charity ball-as it has in the last 10 years-go to the Children's Hospital Research Foundation. In that time, the Winnipeg Police Association charity ball has raised over $1 16,000 for the Winnipeg Children's Hospital. This is especially gratifYing to me as I spent almost a year in hospital when I was six years old. I know the fine work done at the hospital and I know the need for those funds, so it was with pleasure that I did take part.

Also present were the Deputy Minister of Justice, Bruce MacFarlane; the Commissioner of Protection, Parks and Culture, Loren Reynolds; and also the new Chief of the Winnipeg Police Services, Dave Cassels, was there. It was a very enjoyable event. The Winnipeg police band performed there. I think, as Jack Haasbeek, the president of the Winnipeg Police Association-it is an example of community policing in effect, that it was actually the police together with members of the community who raised these funds to benefit the children of our community.

I would ask all members to join with me in congratulating the Winnipeg Police Association for the wonderful work they did. Thank you.

2434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 Manitoba Telephone System-Privatization Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my statement today is on the Manitoba Telephone System which again released its report, the '95 annual report, which documents the many important aspects of Manitoba Telephone System, not only for rates but also for the economy of the province of Manitoba.

We are talking about more than $500 tnillion that is put into the Manitoba economy and close to 4,0 00 jobs, jobs that are important to many communities across this province which are created by the Manitoba Telephone System. I want to indicate I am very concerned about statements that are now being made by senior officials at MTS indicating tha t once MTS is privatized, we are most definitely going to be looking at some closures of offices in rural Manitoba and indeed staff reductions. I am particularly concerned that the government has never once acknowledged this fact.

To give some indication, I would encourage: members of this House to look at how many communities in Manitoba have MTS offices and to ask the question whether we are going to continue to see, for example, operator services in Boissevain, if we are going to continue to see operator services in Minnedosa, but even more importantly, to ask whether we are going to continue to see many of the local and regional offices because, at a recent meeting that took place involving staff of MTS with senior officials, questions were asked about wh ether there will be losses.

The bottom line was, the response was, most definitely under privatization there is going to be a reorganization and it will occur because the government will no longer be in a position to ensure through its influence that there is decentralization throughout the province of Manitoba in temts of jobs from MTS. So the bottom line, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I ask the provincial government and I will be continuing to ask them to put on the record what the impact will be on jobs for MTS, particularly in rural and northern Manitoba, under privatization. Balanced Budg et Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, during the election campaign the government ran hard and long on its promise to balance the budget. For years the Provincial Auditor had made the case that income earned during a period ought to be attributed to the period in which it is earned and not accrued into trust funds. He had made that case and she had made that case over and over again. Finally in 1996-97, this government saw the wisdom and the correctness of the Auditor's suggestions and agreed to change their accounting practices to attribute all the lottery revenues to the year in which they were earned.

Now, those members opposite who read a balance statement will know that when you change your accounting practices, you have to go back and make adju stments to prior years so that you can have a comparable basis from which to look at each year in sequence. The Auditor �ill be doing that. He \\ill go back, he will make the corrections for the previous years, he will provide a table reconciling the real deficits for the years that they were claiming deficits that were larger than they really were. The Auditor \\ill show that the balanced budget is a sham.

It \\as not balanced, it is not balanced, and in fact at the end of the '95-96, on a Volume 3 basis, Public Accounts, there will be a deficit of $50 million. This is a government that misled Manitobans during the election campaign in terms of its commitment to MTS, that misled Manitobans in regard to its commitment to home care, to Pharmacare, to vision care, to hospitals and to a balanced budget. They misled them all the way. Manitobas will not make the same mistake a gam. "' (143 0) Manitoba Hydro-Centra Gas Joint Venture Ms. Mar yAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the decision of the provincial government to have Manitoba Hydro merge billing, power and energy marketing and consulting along with other services \\ith Centra Gas is another indication of the plans to sell Manitoba Hydro piece by piece. Manitoba Hydro was split up into three separate divisions last month, just as previously occurred \\ith MTS. MTS had their cable TV - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2435 network sold off at a fire-sale rate along with other questionable actions, from forcing it to sign a $47- million telemarketing deal to dropping profitable activities to weaken its base. MTS has the second-lowest residential rates in North America, while Manitoba Hydro has the lowest residential rates in North America. It is no accident that this government sees no contradiction in having a Crown entity which is a competitor of Centra Gas work with that company on joint power and energy marketing.

Increasingly, the government sees Crown assets as simply something to sell off. This government has lost any sense of planning or public policy being used, using our assets for public good. This government trashed both the energy conservation unit and the energy marketing divisions because it did not see their use. We have seen that when it comes to election promises, their words mean nothing. They promised last year to protect health care. Instead, Pharmacare was gutted and eye exams were eliminated. Home care and hospitals have been threatened.

MTS is being sold off and other assets are being put on the block The Provincial Auditor has confirmed that even the so-called balanced budget of the election was a hoax. The similarity between this collection of Conservatives and the former Mulroney Conservatives grows daily. Manitobans deserve better. It is time this government kept their election promises instead of just keeping their private promises to friends of the Conservative Party. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Firstly, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if you will recall yesterday, we agreed to waive private members' time tomorrow morning in order to continue with consideration of the matter of Supply, so I would seek leave with regard to the Committee of Supply for this afternoon and for tomorrow morning from 9 a.m. until 12 noon to sit in three sections of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is leave being granted? Leave? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, with respect to the sequence of Supply for this afternoon and tomorrow morning, in the House we will continue the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources, which, if completed, will be followed by the Department of Justice. In Room 255, the Department of Family Services will continue with its Estimate s, to be followed then by the Child and Youth Secretariat and then followed by the Depa rtment of Agriculture upon their completion. In Room 254 will be the continuing Estimates of the Department of Highways.

Thursday afternoon, there will be no Estimates, but rather we will consider second reading of the bills listed on the Order Paper. Should that be completed within a reasonab le time prior to the hour of adjournm ent, we would likely then reconvene in two Committees of Supply and again on Friday would be two Committees of Supply only, not three, so that is clear. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave for the committee structure to be structured, in Room 255, Family Services and then Agriculture; in Room 254, Highways; and in the Chamber, Natural Resources and Justice. Leave? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we will have to reappoint a committee Chair for the third committee. I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), (by leave) that the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) be appointed Chair of the third Committee of Supply for Wednesday, May 22, 1996, and for Thursday morning May 23, 1996. Motion agreed to. Mr. Ernst : Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshamm er), that Mr.

Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation; the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the

2436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1996 De partment of Family Services and Child and Youth Se cretariat; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Dep artment of Natural Resources. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION Mr . Chai rperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. Does the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation have an opening statement? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, yes, I do. I would like to spend a few minutes making a few comments for the member opposite.

My comments will not relate spe cifically to elements in any great amount that are in the exact Estimates but just to give an overview of what the dep artment is doing to try to position itself for the circum stances that this department is dealing with and certainly that the transportation industry is challenged with in these days that we live in right now.

Before I get into the general comments, I would just like to indicate to the member, as he can see from the Estimates book, that in our budget this year our Estimates are a total of $222, 1 20,000 which represents a decrease of 1. 4 percent from the previous year's Estimates of $225 ,284,000. The staff components has been reduced by 31 staff in this Estimates cycle from the '95 -96 level, and of the 31 SY s eliminated, 14 staff were affi�cted. Of the 14 , five staff accepted alternate positions, three retired, two accepted perman ent layoff and four have been placed on the government's re-emp loyment list.

In the area of planning and priorities, you have probably heard the expression, there is nothing more certain about the future than change. I assure: you this adage could not be truer in any other department than the transportation sector today. We have recently seen a dramatic change in trade patterns and alliances, mcreased global competition, rapid technological developments and unfettered growth of information systems and pressure on governments to reduce their debts and deficits, and that is true right across this nation.

There have been more changes in the transportation sector in the last five years than there had been in the previous 25. As a backdrop to this change, we continue to face conflicting demands to reduce the size and cost of government while maintaining high levels of service and even adding new sen·ices. All of these factors combined are forcing us to rethink the traditional role of government and explore new ways of doing business. We at the Department of Highways and Transportation are acutely aware of the rapid pace of change that is affecting every aspect of our operation.

I am pleased with the way my department has tried to keep pace with the change we have been experiencing. We do not have a crystal ball to predict with much accuracy what will happen in the next five years. We are attempting to anticipate and prepare ourseh·es for the changes we can foresee. We have been doing this through the development of an ambitious strategic plruming process which I believe will help us to anticipate some of the change we \\i ll be confronted \\ith in the ,·cry ncar future.

We want to put ours eh es m the position of being able to direct and control our future rather than being swept along by it. We know we must adapt to this change by continuously improving the way we conduct our business. by ex-ploring new methods of sen ice delivery and by even questioning the business we should be in The dep artment's strategic plruming process recognizes that we must be forward thinking in order to create a competitive advantage for Manitoba's transportation sector.

To maintain this sector's strength, Manitoba must adapt to economic change and preserve the quality and efficiency of its transportation infrastructure. This requires continual review of the department's operations to determine which activities will accomplish our goals. Our process is somewhat unique because of the extent to which we have involved our stakeholders, customers and department employees. Over the past year, we have met with over a hundred individual stakeholders representing 50 groups. and I will read the list which is not completely conclusive.

There are other parties that could be added to it too. - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2437 The department has met with shippers and carriers, UMM, Pool Elevators, Manitoba Motor League, Snoman, Society for Manitobans with Dis abilities, Canadian Paraplegic Association, Transport Canada, Repap, Isobord enterprises, Manitoba dump truck association, CN Rail, Manitoba heavy construction industry, law enforcement agencies, Manitoba Safety Council, Motor Dealers Association, Insurance Brokers Association of Manitoba, Age & Opportunity, People in Equal Participation, National Transportation Agency, WINNPORT, Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, National Research Council, Manitoba Trucking Ass ociation, Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, Recreation Vehicle Dealers Association, bus companies, airlines, various government departments, University of Manitoba Transport Institute, Pine Falls Paper Company, various utility companies and a number of engineering firms.

That is not a complete list of the various parties that the department deals with. We asked these groups for feedback of what we were doing right, where we should be improving. We also asked for input on trends in their fields and the impact that these trends may have on the direction of transportation in the province of Manitoba in the future. We conducted a survey of some 6,000 road users and 3, 000 driver vehicle licensing customers to fmd out not only what we are doing right, what we should continue to do, but, more importantly, how we should change to better respond to their needs and expectations.

We also solicited input from employees at every level within the department because, as you know, some of the best ideas for change and improvement often come from those who are closest to the work. We scanned the external environment to see what social, economic, pol itical and technological trends are occurring which will have an impact on the transportation sector. Synthesizing all of this information, along with my government's priorities for transportation, the department has created a vision for how it will influence the future direction of transportation within Manitoba.

This vision involves first, ensuring Manitoba's transportation infrastructure is saf e and economically sustainable; second, ensuring that our policies and programs support Manitoba's economic development and role as a global transportation centre; thirdly, having regulatory services which ensure public safety while promoting the competitiv eness of our transportation industry; fourth, measuring our performance and exploring alternative forms of service delivery to make sure Manitobans receive best value for their tax dollars; five, working with our stakeholders, consulting with our cust omers and balancing their diverse needs; and, six, having a workforce with the skills, technology and authority to do their jobs.

In order to achieve this vision for the Department of Hi ghways and Transportation, we also identified areas where we will concentrate our efforts over the next several years.

We have come up with six areas of strategic focus that involve, first, conducting research and analysis, developing measures of performance and designing mana gement information systems that will lead to better decision making; second, exploring alternative ways of financing our deteriorating transportation infrastructure in order to catch up with needed preservation work and develop new infrastructure which supp orts economic development within the province; third, identifying strategic infrastructure inve stments, public -private partnerships and interdepartmental initiatives that will optimize a sustainable economic development of the province; fourth, building on a consultation process developed for our strategic planning initiative; we will be looking at innovative ways of providing better support to public policy decisions through greater public participation; five, consulting our cus tomers to determine their expectations and then reworking and improving our systems to meet customer service needs; six, recognizing that human resources are instrumental in achieving any of these goals, we must retrain and acquire skilled staff, give them latitude and tools to do their jobs and acknowledge their accomplishments .

The work on these areas of strategic focus will continue over the next several years. However, we have already begun work on better decision making. The goal of this area focuses in creating mechanisms for gathering and generating the information necessary to allow decision makers at every level within the organization to make more rational and defensive decisions, to streamline decision making and operational processes so the staff have the necessary authority to make decisions and to ensure that the proper approval processes are not overly complicated.

2438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 ... (14 50) So far, three initiatives are underway which will contribute to our focus on better decision making; first, process improvement initiative. The first of these initiatives is called process improvement. This involves the mapping or flow charting of all departmental programs or processes in order to gain a better picture of the activities that are involved in providing service or producing an end product.

Using this approach, we will be able to identify activities that are unnecessary or overly time-consuming and where improvements can be made to simplify the process. The next step in process improvement is to cost out the process and to benchmark or compare our costs to those other service providers. The people who deliver the programs or service are very much involved in the mapping and the process redesign since they are often the ones most keenly aware of what improvements can be made.

To make decisions about cost-effective service delivery options, departmental programs are being reviewed to determine the full cost of delivery., examine the range of delivery options and study delivery methods used by other jurisdictions. Secondly, perf orman ce measurement. The second initiative which is underway involves developing indicators and measures of our performan ce. We have recognized that if we hope to acco mplish our goals, we must measure the work effort and resources to be used to produce the results.

Performance measurement will let us know whether we are moving in the right direction by measuring eff ectiveness and efficiency of what we are doing in by helping us to make decisions about the best use of our limited resources. Third, business planning. Another initiative that will be implemented this fiscal year is the preparation of integrated operational financial plans by business units. Business plans are written documents that outline the proposed resources and strategies the business unit will use to accomplish its goals .

The plan integrates resource allocation, including staffing and budgeting, operational planning and perf orman ce measurement to ensure that all business units work in a co-ordinated and conce1ted effort toward accomplishing the strategic aims of the department. I am very pleased with the progress that we have made on these initiatives with the overall system of our strategic planning that has been implemented within the department. As I mentioned earlier, I believe these measures are going to enable the Department of Highways and Transportation to respond to the rapid rate of change that we are all experiencing.

The economic prosperity of a community, region or nation is dependent on the availability of adequate and reliable transportation services at a reasonable cost. For this reason, transportation has been identified as a cornerstone of Manitoba's economic development strategy. As such, the department is committed to maintaining and enhanc ing Manitoba's strategic position as a major hub of transportation. The department plans to utilize resources to the best advantage to accomplish this mission.

We are dealing ·with a vibrant transportation sector within Manitoba, a sector that has been instrumental in much of the province's past prosperity. With the government contributing to the development of transportation policy that is conducive to grm\th and development and with proper planning and management of our transportation and distribution system, the transportation system can continue to contribute to the revitalization of our economy. Mr.

Chairman, this concludes my comments in general, but I would just like to identifY for the critic some of the really significant things that we are facing in the form of change. I will identif)" four of them that cover different parts of the province, and, clearly, one of them is Churc hill in terms of the significant initiative that is going on right now from Gateway North Transportation Inc.

A resolution from the opposition was supported in that context, and we are all hoping and expecting that the federal government and CN can reach agreements with this group of entrepreneurs to not only keep Churchi ll alive but to promote its viability more significantly into the future. Another major activity that is going on right now is the local airport authority in terms of the process involving the federal government, particularly of a local group taking over management of the airport to improve its economic activity within the context of Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Very closely affiliated with that is the big economic potential initiative of WINNPORT that could create some 6,000 jobs. Clearly, the mode of - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2439 transportation of goods around the globe has changed, is chan ging, and air cargo is a very viable option of moving many goods long distan ces. There is no question that Winnipeg is strategically located between Europe and Asia as a location with a 24-hour airport and with almost umestricted access of expanding it to the west and the north in terms of development of whatever kinds of bui ldings or infrastructure are nece ssary to support a global transportation intermodal system at the airport.

The last one I want to identifY for the member is changes that have happened in particularly rural Manitoba, and that is the elimination of the WGT A payment that used to-well, certainly, over the course of almost 1 00 years-stimulate the export of raw product. Now with that gone, although we have been talking about diversification of value-added ind ustries in rural Manitoba, it is really taking off. I am sure he has noticed many anno uncements of a lot of value-added industries wanting to locate, some of them in the process of construction right now, in various locations in rural Manitob a.

What that really means is that a tremendous volume of bulk raw commodity will have further value added to it before it is exported from the provin ce. The challenge behind that opportunity is the fact that unbelievable tonnages of goods, particularly raw grain, oilseeds and special crops products are going to go on the highways of this province in every which way, to go from production point to processing point, ultimately then to export point. I think anybody who travels rural Manitoba will see that the volume of trucks has definitely incr eased.

We have always thought of the grain industry in particular as a producer hauling bulk commodity to an elevator. The elevator then loads it onto a railcar and the railcar takes it to whatever location it is going to, normally export. What we see now is of that product going into the front end of the elevator, about 25 percent of it leaves that elevator by truck and that percentage is going to rise contin ually. I dare say five years ago it was no more than 5 percent that left by truck.

The elevator companies are confirming what we see happening and that is that trucks are a bigger and bigger element in the movement of grains, oilseeds, special crops, and they will also be involved in the movement of the value-added products that come from these various processing locations . So there is going to be a tremendous stress and strain on that infrastructure we currently have, both in terms of its capacity and in terms of its efficiency to accommodate all those activities.

With those kinds of comments, I would want to conclude by saying there is tremendous opportunity to expand Manitoba as a sign ificant transportation hub in every aspect, but also there are some sign ificant challenges to achieve that to its maximum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister ofHighways for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Flin Flon, have any opening comments? Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Yes, Mr. Chairman, perhaps a very short comment.

First of all, I would like to thank the minister for his rather fulsome background material that he gave to me because it puts thin gs in context a little bit more for me. In fact, on many of the points that he raised with regard to Churchill, local airport authority, WINNPORT and the Crow rate, they were issues that I was going to address, as well, and that should come as no surprise. I might add that I will be meeting with one group interested in the Churchill line and the Port of Churchill and have dinner with them on Thursday.

I will get some background from Doug Webber and his group on what they are proposing to do, so that fits in with the ministe r's statement. I do not disagree with the Immster saying that transportation is the cornerstone of Manitob a's economic development . We are located, I think, strategically geographically in a very good part ofNorth America for trade. Tran sportation is in a sense our lifeblood, and we want to have a strong transp ortation sector. There is no doubt about that. At the same time, I think there are a number of challenges and, specifically, I notice ironies associated with these challenges .

As there is more north-and-south flow of goods, of traffic, transportation, I still feel that the northern part of that north-south transportation flow has not been adequately looked after in terms of infrastructure .

244 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 Perhaps it is coloured by the filet I am from the North, but I always fe el that northern roads are undem:rv iced. I suppose, looked at from a diff erent perspective:, it makes sense to only devote 4 or 5 percent of a transportation budget or a highways budget to northern roads, but looked at from our perspective, which is that the North creates tremendous wealth, more money should be devoted to northern infrastructure, northern roads, specifically, as well as airports.

I am saying that because we are looking at a billion dollar mining industry, we are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars that are generated by hydro power, not to mention pulp and paper and wood-that is also in the millions and millions of dollars-and, of course, taxes and so on. So if we take a look in terms of the total economy, I think the North is not getting its fa ir share. If you look at it in terms of population, then of course I see the argument. I also see the counterargument because if you want to be democratic, you look at bodies, but somehow or other in the North that is not well served.

Wt! fe el that because of our special isolated circumstance we cannot treat it just on a per capita basis. More money has to be devoted to the North because the wealth we produce is much larger than seems to be reflected in the budgets fo r fixing northern roads, airports and so on. I do not want to belabour this issue, but it is an ongoing concern with us up there. * (150 0) I want to keep this very short because I am mindful, and I hope the minister agrees with me, that we have limited time, that there are time constraints.

Part of the reason there are time constraints is because we spent a lot of time in Estimates on Health and Education. I think that was fo r a very good reason; those are two l!xtremely important departments. I am not suggesting that Highways and Transportation is not important, but perhaps we could agree that the time frame appears to be today and tomorrow till noon, so that gives us roughly fo ur or five hours, if the minister thinks that is reasonable. I think that is reasonable. If we go that route, though, can I propose a few approaches that I hope the minister will agree with?

One of them is that under Executive Support, I would be asking most of the questions under five main headings, and maybe to help the minister or his staff , the headings would be Engineering Aides 2, provincial gravel road initiatives, used vehicle inspection program and truck safe ty, northern roads issue, which is fa irly broad, and future trends. The minister has alluded to some of those future trends already.

I would like to ask specific questions, but I think at some point my colleagues will come in and will also have questio ns and that will restrict me from asking all the questions on those five broad areas. So I wonder, if we are running short of time, if the minister would entertain the possibility that I would just read them into the record, and he and his staff would supply me with written responses, let us say, within three weeks or a month? Would that be agreeable? In other words, I will take this as far as I can.

If we run out of time, I would like to read it into the record and then get written responses for those questions. Would that be acceptable to the minister? Mr. Findlay: In the broad answers, I guess, yes. Some of them you may want to have a little bit of dialogue on them. It is always helpful fo r us to have some dialogue on diff erent points of view, but in the broad context, as you head each of those, you just maybe indicate a ·written answer would be sufficient or whether you want a little dialogue. I am very flexible, however you want to use scarce time. Mr .

Cha irperson: Just for the clarification of the committee, is it your "ish to have dialogue or discussion on l. (b)(l) , a broad discussion, or do you want to go each one line by line? Mr. Jennissen: Under l. (bXl) , I would like to ask most of the questions. If we run out of time, I \\ill then ask my remaining questions just on the record and expect written responses fo r the ones I read into the record, and then still go line by line, but there will be very fe w. I would not be asking detailed material from there on in. Most of the stuff will be front-end loaded right now under l. (b)( l) . Mr.

Chair person: Is it the will of the committee? [agreed] For the benefit of the committee, I would just like to draw your attention, after the opening remarks which we have had today, all speeches of any member are limited to 10 minutes under subsection Rule 74.(1) and (2). Under the Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 244 1 is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer cons ideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff present. Mr . Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I want to introduce my deputy minister, Andy Horosko, and Mr. Paul Rochon, Executive Director of Administrative Services. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister, and we now proceed to line l. (b)(

l) on page 80 of the Estimates booklet. Item 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $438,900. Shall the item pass? Mr. Jennis sen: Could I go back to, in my booklet, it is page 11 , which is the Department of Highways and Transportation's five operating divisions, and just ask a couple of questions on that? That is this power chart or flow chart or hierarchy of power, if you like. I noticed that under Construction and Maintenance and under Driver and Vehicle Licensing, both Mr. B. Tinkler and M. Zyluk are acting.

Does that mean that these people will inherit this position or about to be appointed as fully heading this position, or is this just an interim position? Mr. Findlay: In both cases they are replacing individuals who have retired. In the case of Construction and Maintenance, Doug Struthers has retired within the last month. In the case of DVL, Dan Coyle retired, again within the last month. So they are both acting at this poin t in time, and ultimately the positions will be filled by competition . Mr.

Jennissen: Under Engineering and Technical Services, I notice what was called last year Northern Airports and Ferries has been changed to Northern Airports and Marine Operations. Is Marine Operations implying something broader than Ferries? I am not sure what the reasoning was to change that. Mr . Findlay: We have a couple of big lakes in the province, and we do run some ferries, so that is the marine component. Mr . Jennissen: Under Policy, Planning and Development, Don Norquay, there was a new category added, that is, Policy Co-ordination and Administration. What was the reasoning for that? Mr.

Findlay: The intent was that we had policy people in the Department of Highways, policy people over in DVL, and they have all been co-ordinated in the one unit so that all the policy people in the overall department are together in one location for administrative purposes. Mr. Jennissen: Before I go into the five broad groupings that I talked about earlier, just one question is in the back of my mind. It comes out of the minister's earlier opening statement.

That is, if the Crow rate is abolished, and has been abolished, in fact, and we are expecting great growth in trucking, then is it not contradictory to spend less money on highways? I mean, on the one hand, we are saying, hey, we need more bucks because of the stresses on our road because of the Crow rate being gone, and if trade is increasing, obviously we are going to have to put more money into our road system, yet the total amounts seem to be going down, perhaps not dramatically, but 1. 4 percent is still a cut. Mr.

Findlay: Well, I guess I tried to indicate to the member that the impact of the Crow is going to have unbelievable long-term challenges for the transportation industry and most particularly our highways. I would say places like the city of Winnipeg and most of our municipalities will also face like challenges, smaller dollars than ours but still significant challenges nonetheless.

The method of funding our provincial system, of course, is that we argue within the context of government to all ocate funds, and I think every member will recognize it does not matter what province you look at now or it does not matter who is in power in any province across this country, everybody really got elected on the basis of fiscal responsibility, controlling costs and pursuing a balanced-budget process. It has really been achieved in eight out of ten provinces. So when you

2442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 argue that some things more should go out of something, that means you have to take something from somebody. That is very difficult, while everybody is sort of downsizing in their costs and trying to limit the levels of expectation, whether it is in health or education or whether it is in justice or wherever it is, to dedicate more money to highways.

The angle we have argued, and I hope the member would support us in thi s context, is that in the overall principle-! think Manitoba and Alberta are probably close to this, maybe even B.C. is in this category-the dollars collected from the road system in terms of fuel taxes, licence fees and that sort of thing basically are reinvested back into the road network. We spend on capital, as the member can see, around $1 00 million a year and on maintenance, around $60 million a year.

That is $16 0 million which is very close to what we collect from the system, so what is collected goes back into the maintenance or the rebuilding of the sy stem. * (1510 ) At the very same time, the federal government has a fuel tax in place right across this country whe:rein after last year's, a year ago's budget inc rease of a cent and a half per litre, they collect right across Canada some $5 .5 billion a year out of the road sy stem. and they are investing back into that road system right across the nation less than 10 percent of that It is probably fair to say sizably less than 10 percent In the province of Manitoba, our calculations would in dicate that they collect far in excess of $200 million each year out of our road system, and if he looks in the budget he will see that federal money coming to the province for highways was $6 million last budget, $3 million this budget So for over $200 million they are collecting out of the system, they are putting only $3 million back in in this budget that we are talking about This argument has been going on since '88, and all provinces are onside on this trying to get the federal government to realize they have a responsibility to this national infrastructure network called hi gh ways.

A national highway program has been proposed. This provi nce, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and myself have taken leadership positions trying to get comnutrnents from the federal government In October of '94, ministers of Transportation met here, and I got a commitment from the then-federal Minister of Transport Doug Young that he would make a yes or no response to us as provinces by December 15 of that year. His response was no to the question, will the federal government match in any way dollars that the provinces are putting in. He said, well, I will only match what you are prepared to put on the table.

Nine out of the 1 0 prm inces, e,·ery province other than Quebec, actually were prepared to commit m·er a five year period some $2.6 billion worth of road infrastructure money, and we wanted the feds to respond in some matching fashion. There had already been a formula generated, but we were not worried about whether they lived up to the formula or not just commit something, and their answer was no.

We continue to lobby Every group that lam aware of invoh·ed in hi ghways use or construction. from tourism to trucking to heavy construction. all support the principle of an NHP. a national highways program. because it is just like the infrastructure program. The federal government gets its dollars back within a year or year and a half in the form of taxes paid. and the province gets its money back in the course of two and a half to three years in the form of taxes paid. so it would seem like a logical place to invest money in an mfrastructure sense in the future.

We still hope that even tually they wilL but I think that is the best alternative we have to source more money. in other words acting on the principle that the money that is collected from the system should go back in some form to capital or to maintenance.

At this time, the federal governmen t as part of the WGT A, has said that there is $14 0 million available for infrastructure. and this province has clearly identified that the infrastructure component that that money should go to is roads, and this had been confirmed in a letter from a federal deputy minister, that $26 million will come to Manitoba for infrastructure, and with the UMM, the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), Mini ster of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach) and myself, we sent a jointly signed letter to the federal government saying our identification of infrastructure in the province that is hurt by WGT A is roads and all that money should go to roads. Just today the Honourable Jon Gerrard has announced that, effectively, he has not accepted that offer and that he - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2443 is starting a process to have hearings in four locations in the province to decide how that money should be spent. His first hearing is tomorrow in Brandon, I believe, and he has three other locations. So that is $26 million out of $1 40 million for this province. The rest goes to Saskatchewan and Alberta. All provinces are saying the same thing I have just said. We are short of money; we need some federal support. I think I have told the member in the past that on my desk right now is at least $1 billion of requests for capital projects in this province.

I have $10 0 million every year and that is a lot of money, but every year when we spend $10 0 million, there will be another $200 million of requests come forward next year because of the use of the infrastructure, people seeing need for heavier-built roads, heavier-built bridges, repaving, new roads needing constructed, accesses to new plants to be built, culverts to be put in to handle water. I mean, the requests just never end and they are monstrous. I say regularly to all the different groups and particular municipalities that come and talk to me, I know what your needs and wants are.

I would love to be able to serve them but, simply, as a province by itself, we do not have sufficient resources, given the fact that the federal government is taking money out of the system and not putting it back in. We are asking for support everywhere we can to keep the lobby up with the federal government. They have a responsibility here. They have a national highway network which they are not putting anything much towards and expecting the provinces to continue to build the roads east and west.

The member has identified that more north-south from a trade point of view is more significant to us now than what used to be just an east west system. That is my feeling on the process, and I do not have a magical answer, but we must continue to keep working to get some federal dollars into the provinces. Mr. Jenni ssen: I understand all of us want the federal government to give the provinces more money, but I guess the feds are wrestling with their own demons because, what are they paying, 38 cents to the dollar for the national debt? So I can see their argument, as well,

whereas in this province we are paying, what, 12 cents of the dollar on our debt. Perhaps our picture relative to theirs is rosier and that is maybe why they are hanging on to the dollars a little more tightly. However, there still appears to me to be a contradiction to say on the one hand, as the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) has done, that our economy is stearnrolling ahead, if that is the term he used, and trade is booming and at the same time cutting back on infrastructure money for transportation. It seems to be inconsistent to me. Mr.

Find lay: I do not think we are cutting back on dollars for infrastructure. We are holding in that $10 0- million category. Saskatchewan, the last I heard, were down around $50 million, and they have got two and a half times as many roads as we have got. These are the realities we live with. Yes, the economy is steamrolling ahead. I think the member goes out and sort of talks around in the agricultural industry, and I am sure it is the same in the mining industry, because I have heard they are both basically in a boom cycle in terms of prices. New mines are opening in the North, and that is very, very good.

Certainly the grain prices in southern Manitoba are the best anybody out there farming today has ever seen in their life, certainly the best in the last 20 years. They are having a little trouble getting the crop in because it is wet and all that, but all the se announcements of capital investment, whether it is in a pasta plant or an oilseed crushing plant or a hog slaughtering plant or french fry plant expansion or Simp lot nitrogen fertilizer expansion, all that means more activity, more construction jobs, more jobs in those plants once they are open.

It means more jobs particularly in trucking and moving products to and from there. I think it also is a positive thing for the rail industry in certain context. So, yes, the economy is rolling along. The demands on us in the infrastructure sense, the stakes have been raised. I think if a year ago I would be saying to municipalities that come in and say, I have $10 0 million available and they have $600 million in requests on the table. As I mentioned earlier, it is a billion now, and likely said to me yesterday, it is $1.1 billion. The list of projects that are needed just grows.

For instance, a bridge over the Red River is $10 million. There are interchanges that can be built for $1 0 million. There is another interchange that is going to be wanted very soon, and it is going to cost $29 million.

2444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 You know, grading a road is $1 00,000 a kilometre. By the time you put RTAC pavement on there, you have added $250 ,000 a kilometre. The costs rise. We have got 2,6 00 bridges, and sometimes the next weakest link in the road is the next bridge. It is a tremendous challenge for the department to meet all the expectations. But I can promise the member that, yes, the economy is rolling. The challenge is for us to have the infrastructure that serves our needs will never lessen.

Within the city here we are promoting very strongly the trucking industry, the airport and the intermodolism between trucking and the airport, and I think there is a certain element in intermodolism with rail there: possible too. So the private sector in certain respects has to put their investments in and in some cases !they are. particularly in rural Manitoba. You see a lot of activity around the WINNPORT initiative, and that is private sector driven. Their business plan we expect to see before too long which certainly we will need. If it is to \vork it will require a lot of private sector investnent.

But the city, all the municipal jurisdictions and the province are going to have a continuing process of trying to be sure we meet the essential infrastructure needs in the intermediate term. That tight circumstance we are in \vill not let up for a long time to come. I do not think any Minister of Transportation across this country will say anything different than what I just said. * (1 52 0) Mr. Jenni ssen: I would like to tum to the fi,e areas that I mentioned earlier. I think at some point one of my colleagues will join me and ask specific questions. The member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) had some specific road questions, and she only has today to ask them, so there will be a slight interruption. Turning then to the first category, and it does not have to be this category we start with; it is Engineering Aides 2. If that is agreeable to all, I would like to start with that particular category. The first question is, what is the exact number of Aides 2 that were affected by the layoff January 1, 19 96, to April 1, 19 96? Mr . Findlay: Mr. Chairperson, 12 0 people were affected. Two people accepted perman ent retirement, so effectively, 11 8 people were affected by that. Mr .

Jennissen: How many Aides 2 have taken the permanent layoff package, and how many have found other jobs? You said two were retired. Mr. Findlay: Two took permanent layoff Of the 11 8 who were called back, certainly some had found other jobs and did not respond to the recall. We do not have the exact number, but if the member wants to know, we can get that exact number as to how many of those who were hired in '95 accepted the recall in April of '96. Mr . Jennissen: In December l. 1995. layoff notices.

Aides 2 were told they would be offered seasonal work no later than April 1. 19 96. yet regional administrators are telling workers on December 15. 19 9 5, that nonseasonal status will be maintained until the beginning of 19 97. Is that a contradiction to have nonseasonal status and yet to be given seasonal work') I was not quite clear what was meant there. Could you elaborate·) (Mr. Edward Heh\er. Acting Chairperson. in the Chair) Mr. Findlay: I will try to giYe the member an understanding here It 1s a long process. but tlus is the department's

interpretation of the collectiYe bargaining agreement, that those individuals who were permanent in '95 will be permanent seasonal in '96 and '97. and they stay in that category for that two-year period. which then allows them to revert to be called seasonal workers in '98, and that is follm\ing the collective bargaining agreement, to go from permanent to seasonal. Mr . Jennissen: Just to paraphrase what the minister said then, next year, those workers can expect to be laid off again for a three-month period but will be recalled in April. Is that correct? Mr .

Findlay: Those employees called back were guaranteed a minimum of eight months work; I say a minimum of eight months work. Whether there is more than eight months work, whether it is nine or 10 or 11 or - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2445 12 will depend on whether there is work available. That, generally speaking, has a lot to do with weather and how the construction season goes. So eig ht months is their minimum guarantee, and it could be longer depending on the work needs that unfold over the course of the season. Mr. Jenni ssen: After 19 97, would those same workers, now seasonal workers, still be guaranteed eight or nine months of work a year? Mr. Findlay: At this stage, barring the unforeseen, that is the plan at this point, that it will continue to be the minimum of eight months.

In this day and age of change, nothing can be locked in stone because circumstances might change, but the intention is the minimum of eight months on a seasonal basis. Mr. Jennissen: So within the next several years in the interim, the short future, Engineering Aides 2 can expect at least a guarantee of eight months by the department, possibly more, in the region of nine, 10 , 11 or 12, and so those workers should not face any major problems in terms of longer layoffs stretches before 19 98. Is that correct? Mr . Findlay: Yes, that is a fair conclusion to what I said. Mr.

Jen nissen: I have talked to quite a number of Aides 2, and many of them are upset, obviously, because they felt they had worked for the department for many, many years and had taken for granted-perhaps in this day and age, one should never take one's job for granted-that they would never be working, let us say, a nine-month year. Because they were never laid off until this year, I guess I need to know, is the minister trying to suggest that the weather last year was somehow unique or that all the work was election related, or is this an attempt to phase out Aides 2 entirely?

I am not clear what the general thrust seems to be. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, in this area, like many other areas, technology comes along, and a lot of automation gets into the system. Automation generally means less manual work, less need of hours of work. Another way to put it, more work can be done per hour of employee activity. For two or three years, as regards that process, it was becoming evident to the department that there was a lot of period oftime when there was not any work for these people to do, as there was, say, five or 10 years ago.

Then in '95 the very good weather conditions allowed a lot of projects to be completed well ahead of what we call a normal schedule. It became very apparent, between automation and a fast summ er, that a decision had to be made as to whether we continue to pay these employees when there is not work to do or we have to be rational in the department, to have layoffs in place when there is no work for certain groups of employees. So the decision was made to start the layoff process and to look forward. I am saying that the minimum we can guarantee is eight months of work per year.

That is just a reality of a changing workplace, a changing way of doing some of the business and what automation and improved technology bring to us. I think the bottom line for the department is always to maximize the amount of dollars we can spend on road maintenance, road construction, and improve safety for the users of those roads, so it is very hard to rationalize that you keep employees for a period of two or three or four months when there is not effectively work for them to do. * (1 530 ) Mr.

Jennissen: I realize that we are working under tight fiscal constraints, or restraints, I guess, but still if I take a look at the senior executives in the department, at least some of them, or one of them has a raise of over 22 percent over two years, while these workers are taking Filmon Fridays, being cut three months from the year, and so on. I guess that does not sit well with me because I think we are given the wrong message.

I guess the question I have for the minister, I mean, symbolically, does that look good when the top echelon gets these massive, or at least appear to the average public, although, Lord knows, I know the minister is probably underpaid, but it appears in terms of percentages, you know, a huge raise, and yet Engineering Aides 2 are taking cuts, taking home less pay in the year.

2446 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 Mr. Findlay: Well, the member has identified a senior executive. Would he like to say who, so I can respond as the reason why the 22 percent? Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry, I think they have all had modest raises, and, of course, I know that some: of those raises may be out of the jurisdiction of the minister himself, but I am saying the public out there only sees increases for senior administrators and decreases for workers on the line. Mr.

Findlay: Well, I can assure the member that, if we did not respond to be sure that our senior people were paid commensurate with so-called industry nor ms, private sector offers or what the City of Winnipeg pays, we would lose an awful lot of our senior executi ves. I mean, we have to respond to the marketplace out there, and if somebody gets an increase as he has m<:ntioned, somebody he has not identified yet, at 22 percent, I am sure there is a change in classification involved there ; it is not that they stayed in the same job. Each job is classified, as he knows, through the civil service process.

There is a range of salary, and if you move somebody into a new job and it is a highe:r paying job, you cannot pay less than the range. I mean, we have to be responsible as to how we pay people: that is consistent with other offers they might have, or we would not have our senior people, which we desperately need, to run the department effective ly. Mr. Jennissen: But would the minister not agree that the same argument could also hold true for Engineering Aides 2? If you cannot hold senior people because we are not paying them enough and we have to increase salary in order to retain them-I am not debating that.

They are probably well worth every penny of it. The question I have is, why does that argwnent not hold true for Engineering Aides 2? Why ar<: we not pricing them out of the market by paying too little? Mr. Findlay: I think there is a dramatic difference between the two that the member has not recognized, and that is that, for the senior executives, there is a workload there 12 months of the year. It does not let up. For the En gineering Aide 2, as we have identified, the department iden tified three to four months where there was not sufficient work to warrant continuing to keep them on the payr oll.

Certainly, the door was open to recall them . So there is quite a difference between work available and you come to work and you are paid versus a situation where there is not work , therefore, we have to use the layoff process to be sure that we are efficient in the process of the jobs we are doin g. Mr. Jennissen: But the fact still remain s, Mr. Minist er, that these Engineering Aides 2 for years and years and years were putting in 12 mont hs. At what point could we say there were no longer 12 months of work for them '1 Did it just happen accidentally that it was in 19 95'1 Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Chairman, I already answered that question earlier when I said that five or I 0 years ago there was work basically year around. A'i tech nology crept in and automation started to take place, there was less need for man hours to get the same volume of work done. Another way to put it, you can do more work per man hour because of the automation . That had already been happen ing for two or three years prior and, I mean, the department had not responded. Add to that, in '95, the good weather season, a lot of the field work got done much quicker, you had two reasons why there was no work.

One is automation, increa sed tech nology; secondly, the good season, and the department could no longer justifY keeping them on 12 months when there was only ei ght months of work, and I call that good management by the senior executi ve. Mr. Jennissen: I guess I am just wondering out loud, and the minister can answer this, why would it not be phased in more slowly; in other words, taking away three months is quite a large chunk . That is a quarter of your working year.

Why could it not have happened that we are starting this slowly, that this year we have to let a month go and then possibly a year or two later, maybe two mont hs, but this was dramatic, this was all of a sudden, one-quarter of your work year, and that seemed a little abrupt as if there was no preparation or whatever. That was my concern. like, why this sudden, dramatic change? Mr. Findlay: I think the member has to understand that the department for two or three years knew that there was - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2447 a developing circumstance here, and we were tight like we were last year on the fmancial side, and we have a budget and we have to live within it. There was a lot of good weather, a lot of work got done, and the other senior people in the department had a tremendous challenge last year trying to keep that capital budget at the $10 3 million.

If I could think, we went a million over in the final anal ysis, so they had to scramble to fmd every dollar they could save in the overall process to be sure that we had the budget to cover the capital activity out there, and the capital activity means building roads and bridges. So that has to be our focus, building roads and bridges. The member wants more roads and bridges built, so the department cannot serve two masters, cannot be keeping people employed when there is no work and still meet that demand to maximize the dollars for roads and bridges. You might say, well, we should have phased it in.

That is a legitimate statement, but it piled up on them last year in terms of the good weather and, as I say, the automation that had replaced man hours of work, so they had to make a decision and, as I say, they made the right decision, although it is tough on employees, no question about it. But there is a guarantee of a minimum eight months on in the future and, depending on circumstance, it could be eight, it could be nine, it could be 10 , it could be 11 , it could even be 12, but the department has to have flexibility on how it manages its human resources. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr.

Jennissen: I guess I may be showing my ideological bias, but it always creates problems though if the principal gets a raise and the teachers get a cut. In the same sense, I would have preferred to see no raises while, you know, people further down are being hurt economically. That is just a statement I am makin g. If I could go on and ask the minister also, has the department considered the impact on the morale of aides, many of whom have worked for the department full time for decades who now feel that they are expendab le?

And has the department equally considered the economic impact in small communities when their Aides 2 are being been laid off or are being moved or even leaving? Mr. Findlay: Well, Mr. Chairman, no government or no minister in this day and age can be all things to all people. We clearly understand the impact on small communities whenever jobs come to an end no matter whether it is in Agriculture or whether it is in Highways and Tran sportation or where it is. I think the figures are that over the course of the last eight years we have downsized the workforce in the civil service by 2,200 people.

In that group, there would be far less than 200 actual layoffs. There has been a very humane process of trying to retire people or early retire people to decrease our workforce. In response to the same circumstance that I mentioned earlier, for a given hour of work in every department, more can be done in an hour because of technological aids, and that is a reality. Whether you are in CN or CP, whether you are in a trucking company or whether you are in manufacturing, jobs are being replaced by technology and the jobs are moving to where that technology is produced, by and large. That is the chan ging economy.

We have said to communities across Manitoba that these changes are happening and there is no government that has the dollars to stem the flow of those kinds of decisions that some of the old technology as it requires fewer people you have to aggressively work to bring the new techn ology to your region or your town .

I use some statistics, and I will launch off on a bit of a tangent for a moment here, but I use statistics in different speeches I give in diff erent places, in that back in the 1900s, this was an agrarian society, where 80 percent of the people worked and lived on farms; today 3 percent . * (1 540) In the '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s and even in the '80s, we were in an industrial age, when 55 percent of the jobs were in manufacturing.

I am told that shortly into past the year 2000 it will be down to 15 percent of the jobs there, and we are now in what is called the information age and, again, by the year 2000, 45 percent of the jobs will be in the information age in data han dling, moving, those kinds of jobs and customer service with data. That is dramatic chan ge. What we say to communities is, go out there and aggressively pursue that new technology, those new jobs. Say in rural Manitoba, it is the valued-added jobs of taking a raw product and converting it to something of

2448 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 higher value. It is pasta plants, it is oilseed crushing plants, it is hog processing and on it goes. In the mining sector in the North, clearly W(: have put in place incentives to expand exploration, and it has led to opening of new mines.

Commu nities have been very agg ressive in that and formed economic development boards and cham bers of commerce, and they get together and collectively go out and try to pursue bringing an investor in or a person with an idea, and they use such things as Grow Bonds to fa cilitate the raising of the capital locally to bring an initiative there that creates the jobs of the new economy. So that evolution is going on, and it will not stop. In my era, you graduated from whatever and you got a job for the rest of your life. That was the norm.

What we see in my case and my grand children is they will get an education and any job they may get might have a duration of two, five, 10 yea rs, but they will definitely be turning over what they do and retra ining. You are in a constant process of learning, retrain ing, responding to what the world challenges are that come to our doorstep and because of the Internet, as an examp le, and it was part of an ann ouncement yesterday, you try to bring more Internet access through MTS to people in Manitoba because that gives you a global contact.

If we get global contract, all our competitors get global contact to compete with us. That is the chan ging world. As long as man has got this up here, he is going to keep driving that forefront of knowledge at that challenge. I think the bottom line to my discussion is I used to say that the amount of knowledge doubles in 16 months and that is called scary, and a librarian walked up to me a couple ofweeks ago and said, you know, in 15 years that is going to doub le in 23 da ys . I said, oh, my gosh. That is change, and we have to all be under standi ng that and moving along.

Instead of trying to go back and hang on to th,e old, we have to say, okay, where are the new opportun ities of the future? We aggress ively want people to retra in, get up to date in terms of what the new technology opportun ities are in government, out of government, because if we do not, the world is going to pass us by. I think Manitoba and Canada have been pretty successful in that, but we just can never stop. We have to bring every means of technology to our people, particularly young people, to be able to understand that and respond to it and everybody is challenged with that.

So the department and the little things they are doing here with the Engineering Aides 2 is responding to that very big initiative that is just not going to go away and that is chan ge, adap tation. If you do not change, you are going to be left stand ing in the dust. Mr. Jennissen: Well, I agree up to a point with the minister, but I think governments can be more aggressive in mana ging chan ge, as we ll, because if you just go along for the free ride in the sense of this is the way it goes, free enterprise runs ramp ant, a lot of people get hurt, a lot of workers get hurt.

Those changes are definitely coming, I understand, but sometimes you have , I think, a more posit ive or powerful role to play in mitigating what works against workers and ordinary Canadi ans. I know one can argue we lost about 16 ,000 or 16 0,000 jobs-I forget how many-in the auto industry in Onta rio, and a lot of women are doing it in the maquila doras working for five bucks a day or three bucks a day. Now that is not good change. We can sit back and say, well, that is inevitable. or you can say, we have to manage it somehow that our mm people are hurt less.

I do not think it makes us old fas hioned, although I notice that the New Democratic Party which was once considered the radical forefront of things is often labelled now as being behind or trying to go back to an earlier era. I do not think that is true. I just think we ·want to mitigate the damage that the system seems to be inflicting on people I do not worship change for change sake. I think we have to be ver-y careful how we manage it, but we are getting into an ideological debate and I guess I should get off this. Mr. Findlay: Within the concept of mana ging change.

I want to go back to what I said in my opening comments in terms of we reduced the number of sta1f by 3 I. but there were only 14 positions that had staff in them, so only 14 affected. Of that 14 , five accepted alternate positions, so that is an accommod ation for those fh·e for which their job effectively was no longer needed. Three retired, so nobody is aff ected yet. Two accepted permanent layoff. So there is an effect on two people. and four are placed on the government replo)ment list and may well fmd jobs. So out of that whole group, two people were affected directly in terms of layoff. I do not - -

May 22, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2449 know whether they had packages that went with it or not, to a certain degree. At the same time, I want to remind the member that in Saskatchewan in Highways and in B.C. in Highways they laid off over 200 people just like that. When Glen Clark came in as Premier in B.C., he just laid off 200 staff. He was fo rmerly in charge of that department. So in terms of mana ging change to minimize the impact, I think we have done an incredible job, not only this department but the government as a whole.

We are trying to be as responsible to people as possible, but we still have to move along and everybody has to move along. I do not care where you look, it is happening. I think in the government we have been very humane in the process to try to minimize the number of people who actually are laid off by all kinds of vehicles. It has worked, but it takes time and it has been slow. We have not walked in and laid off 10 ,000. We have not walked in and laid off a thousand. We have not done any of those things. We have given packages, and many people have stepped up and taken early retirement.

I congratulate them because they open the door fo r younger people to stay in the workf orce which is so critical to the management of our overall economy. Mr . Jennissen: Sometimes, though, change, even positive change, has to be taken relative to what happened bef ore, and I was reminded of the fa ct that the minister mentioned mining in the North. It is true that mining is very active right now and is doing very well and I am very glad. I mean all of us are glad that it creates jobs. The reality is though we have a thousand less miners working now than we did a number of years ago .

So although it is a positive move, it is only a positive move in the sense compared to what it was a few years ago. It had been better at one time. Mr. Findlay: I dare say you could take any sector and go back five or 10 years and there were more people employed then than now. That is simple reality of technology replacing people.

But had we not done the aggressive things to promote exploration in the mining sector, think how bad it would be today as per I read in the Globe and Mail a day or two ago where the mining companies had had a meeting in B.C. and they are moving to Chile, moving out of B.C. to Chile simply because of a lot of concerns, maybe concerns of the potential outcome of the election there. They think that is not a place to invest their capital, not a place to do their exploration. They fe el Chile is better, and B.C. has such a tremendous potential in the mining industry.

I know when we were bringing in our incentive pro grams for exploration, and this is something we should not be talking about here, but now that you bring it up, I have to mention it, there were a lot of companies saying, we are getting out of B.C. because of the climate, and Manitoba is a great place to explore. So we have more jobs today than we would had had we stood still. Yes, it is not as many as bef ore but that is nothing new. Every sector is in that category. You just look in the trucking industry and the length of trucks today and the efficiency of those trucks.

Probably one man can truck as much today as three did 15 years ago. It is just a change in the industry. It is just a reality. Mr. Jennissen: A last comment and that is that I am very happy that mining is doing well in northern Manitoba, and I am sure that the government had something to do with it. But equally on high base mineral prices and new technology, and I will just mention the spectrum airplane being used by companies such as HBM&S.

They have done some fab ulous stuff , but at the same time, when you do have a deposit like, let us say, Photo Lake in mining deposit, they are talking about automating that mine to the point where only fo ur or five people are working, so it is not a great creator of jobs, but we are certainly happy that it is there. * (1550 ) Mr.

Findlay: But the minute that you take some product out of the ground and it does not matter how many people taste it, it has to be processed, it has to be transported, it has to be further utilized, so there is an unbelievable spinoff, but I say, as long as man has got this grey matter here, he is going to keep making things more efficient as everybody is in an industrial economy that tries to achieve maximum economic efficiency . We have done well as a country, but, boy, if we stand still we are fa lling behind and I think in the transportation sector here in Manitoba.

All the players have been aggressive over the course of time and the department has to be aggressive in ensuring

2450 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 96 that the services we deliver are as cost-eJiicient as possible, as they are through in the strategic: planning process. That challenge is there constantly, be more responsible, more efficient, get out of doing things that are no longer serving any useful purpose, but get more aggressive in the things that can help us expand what we are doing, and bring those opportuni ties like WI NNPORT here or like allowing the trucks to access the mines that are necessa ry in the future in the North. That is just a realit y.

We just must respond to challenge those opportu nities just in the future. I can tell the member quite honestly, no Mini ster of Transportation in this province in the next 20 years is ever going to have enough money to meet all the needs That is a very safe statement. Unfort unate, but probably 1 0 years ago he did not have either; but h1� did not understand how bad it would be I 0 years later Mr. Je nnissen: I am quite aware of that. Mr Mini ster. I just want a quarter of that budget up North, that is all. whatever the budget is. Mr.

Findlay: As I meet with all the different regions everybody says, spend more money. They ju st take it out of the other person's region, and my constant statement is. cannot, will not do that. Ev erybod y has to get some of the benefit and share a bit of the pain, so we will do a little bit. little bit, eve1-y region, and the member says based on population. Really, we base a lot on road miles, miles driven. that sort of thing. It is not a precise science, but I will never take all from one region and put it all in another. If you take 25 percent in the North, I ask you, when� are you going to take it from?

I know right away. It is all through the south, and you are really going to short their ability to respond to the economic opportun ities, so it is a balancing act. If you ever got to be in this pos

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-38a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 38a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c0e643cc081204a55a24d9f8c1a16f029252f62e

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