Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36A (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-36a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time : 2:0 0 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday , 14 Ap ril , 198 0 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle-Russ el l) : Presenting Petit ions • •• READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. CLERK: The petition of Pet er J. Reimer and Others , Praying for the passing of

an Act to Incorporate the Bethesda Foundation. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-Gen er al. HON . GERALD W.J. MERCIER (O sborne) : Mr. Speak er , I wish to table the Eighth Annual Report of the Manitoba Police Commission for the year 1979· MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ••• Introduc tion of Bills ••. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkir k) : Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister of Finance indicate whether or not the introduction of the provincial budget will be delayed pending the introduction of the federal budget in order to bette r ascertain the steps that the federal government have in mind pertai ning to assistance to homeowners, business , and farmers , in light of today 's Throne Speech announcement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON . DONALD W. CRAIK (R ie l) : Mr .

Speak er, in reply to the Leader of the Oppos ition, inasmuch as there was no indication in the Throne Speech this morning as to an early date for the federal budge t, it seems most likely that we 'r e now looking at some time later on in the second half of 198 0 for a federal budget ; that being the case , then the answer to the question would be no. I would think that if a federal budget were coming in any time in the next few weeks , that very likely we would have heard about it thi.s morning. MR. PAWLEY : A further question to the House Leader or the Attorney -Gen er al.

In view of the announcement from Ottawa that freedom of information legislation will be introduced , can the Minister advise whether or not the impact of the resolution that was passed in this House last year re the establi shment of freedom of information vehi cle , wi ll indeed be estbli shed during this sessi on? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I'm not fully aware of the announcements that were apparently in the Throne Speech this morning. I am not certain if the new government intends to introduce the legislation that was brought forward by the previous government.

Perhaps I could take the question as notice and refer back to the resolution that was apparently passed in order that I might have a chance to look at that . - 2343 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 198 0 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER : Order plea se . Before we proceed I'd like to ask the indulgence of the House to welc ome 22 students of Grade V and VI standing from Montrose Eleme ntary School under the direc tion of Mrs. Laura Hanna , this school is in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for River Heights . On behalf of all the Honourable Members we welcome you here this afternoo n. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS ( Cont '

d) MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, further to the Attorney -Genera l, whether or not the federal government proceed with freedom of information legisl ation , does the Attorney-General intend to introduce legislation alon g the measures as outl ined in the resolution which was passed in this Chamber some two years ago , pertaining to freedom of information legislation? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I'l l take that question as notice and examine the resolution that was apparently pass ed . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr.

Speak er , I would like to direc t a question to the Honourable Minister of Finance to whom the Manitoba Hydro report s. Can the Ministe r advise me whether there are negotiations under way of which he is aware and whether there are any developments with respect to the proposed exchange of surplus hydro power as between Manitoba and states in the United States , I believe Nebraska is included , whereby Manitoba would sell power in the wintertime and re ce ive surplus power in exchange in the summertime . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR CRAIK : Mr.

Spea ker , those negotiations are currently proceedin g . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speak er, given the fact that the negotiations are taking pla ce , is the Manitoba Hydro Board free to deal with a letter which they received from the opposite party in these negotiations and which they have apparently - or I'm asking whether they have been apparently told that they cannot , of their own considerat ion, respond to the letter. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker , the Hydro Board will ulti mately , if there is a Letter of Intent , lette r entered into with Nebraska , it will be that agency , namely the Hydro Board that will enter into it, but inasmuch as that Letter of Intent woul d lead to an agreement which would have to be ratified by the Legislative Counse l, by the Cabinet , the Lieuten ant-Governor-in-Cou ncil , to that extent there has been very cl ose co-ordin ation , co-operation between the Hydro utility and the government with regard to the Letter of Inte nt, and from that point of view it has been a jo int committee that has been working from the Manitoba point of view on it.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , will the Minister confirm or deny that it is a fact that he has taken charge of these negotiations , that he has prevented the Hydro Board from deal ing with the let ter which has been sent by the other utility and th at, contrary to the rec ommendations of Mr. Justice Tritschler , there has been no di rective in writing stipulatin g the government 's limitations to Hydro with resp ect to these particular negotiations . MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker , the case is the opposite to what the member is suggesting.

The utilit y in the United States has already cleared all the ingredients of its posit ion with the State Gove rnment of Nebraska . At this point in time the conditions of the Letter of Intent are a subject of discussion and negotiation between the government of Manitoba, the Hydro Board personnel and the utilit y in Nebraska . That is the current state of affairs . - 2344 -

Monday , 14 Apr il , 198 0 When the cond itions that can be entered into for the export sale are satis factory to both the utility and to the government of Manitoba, we 'l l be in a position to proceed , and that's where we are now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a fourth qu estion. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker .

Then will the Minister not confirm that he has taken charge of these negotiations ; that the government of Manitoba has stipu lated that the Manitoba Hydro Board cannot conclude them without the consent of the government of Manitoba; and furtherm ore , that the government 's directives have not been put forward , in writing, as reco mmended by Mr. Justice Tritschler? MR. CRAI K: We ll, Mr. Speak er , again the mem ber , I think , is on the wrong track.

The Tri tschl er Report rec ommend ed , as one or its principle reco mmend ations, that the government be more responsible and directly involved in extra -provincial negociations and , in fact , arm itself with sufficient knowledge and manpower to be able to judge these more adequately before they came to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council for a dec ision ; and that is exactly what we 'r e doing. Now, on a second part , as to whether or not the utili ty has been given written instructions in this regard .

In that regard the committee that is working on these was a committee that was set up some time back, almost a year ago , Mr. Spea ker , a negotiating committee that was made up of a number of utility peo ple , of gover nment people and an outside committee chaired by a legal counsel there had been a legal counsel for the utilit y for some time and to that extent the whole host of external negotiations were looked at. Those included , to a lesser degree than some othe rs, the so-called ManDan agreem ent , but from that negotiating com mittee has emerged the present one that is currently carrying on the work.

And , Mr. Spea ker , from that point of view I can indicate to you that the matters have moved along quite well. But the key to it is , Mr. Speaker , that at this point in time the Nebraska utility had approval of the terms and conditions upon which it was enter ing into negotiation and that point is still a point of discussion with regard to Manitoba , but emerging principally because the Letters of Intent leading to an agreement would leave very little flexibility for the government to deal with if it came to Order-in Council stage for the agreem ent . MR. SPEAK ER: Order please .

May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that we thank him for his explanat ion. That was a rather lengthy explan ation. The Honourable Government House Lead er. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , members opposite have asked whether or not an enquiry would be held with re spect to the death of a patient at the Brandon Mental Health Centre . Mr. Speaker , I would advise members opposite that an inquest will be held into that matter but a date has not yet been set . On another matter, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Elmwood asked me what speci fic dates had been set for the re-opening of the Ackland inquest . Mr.

Speak er , those dates are April 24th and 25th . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. SAMUEL USKIW : Mr. Speak er, I would like to ask the Minister of Hea lth whether he can look into a situation where a patient from the Health Sciences Centre is apparently rec ommended for treatment in the United States , and wherein it is apparently the belief of the patient and his family that they have to assu me the added costs.

I am wondering whether the Minister would find out report to the House , whether or not the Health Services Commission will honour costs incurred outside of Manitoba for medical treatment , wherein the medical people in Manitoba are re commending the same . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of He alth . HON . L.R. (B ud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry) : Mr. Spea ker , if the honourable member wants to give me the details of that case I will look into that case - 2345 -

Monday , 14 Apr il , 198 0 specific ally , but in general te rms , yes , where a Manitoba resident is referred by a spec ialist or a practitioner here for medical treatment in the United States, the costs of that are borne by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. USKIW : Mr . Speak er , to help the Minister , I would indicate to him that the patient 's name is one , Mr. Long, from Lockport .

It involves a situation of bone marrow transplan t, as I understand it, and the community around Lockport and Selkirk is currently involved in a fund rais ing campaign in an effort to raise some $30 ,0 00 to finance the di fferenc e. And I would hope , Mr. Speaker , that the people of Manitoba col lec tively would prefer to finance that cost rather than a few people in the given area. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR. ROBERT G. WILSON : Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Minister in charge of Urban Affai rs.

I wonder if the Minister could advise the House as to his knowledge regarding the move of the entire Public Welfare Department to 705 Broadway in the Wolseley residential community . I wonder if he could tell us if there was any consultation with the co mmunity , any environmental impact study planned or any type of relief in sight for the impact of this very large facil ity in our community. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-Genera l. MR. MERCIER : Mr. Speak er , there as been no consultation with me . I would suggest that the member consult a city councillor. MR.

WILSO N: Since this large percentage of welfare recipients initially become wards of the province and since the Minister is in charge of Urban Affairs , could he consider discussing this at the next join t meeting as to the possible extra police protection to avoid the addit ional panhandlin g and drunken dist urb ances and extra social problems occur when a large department of this nature is dropped into a community , and could he also consider the reassess ment of property values in the area. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Urban Developm ent . MR. MERCIER : Ye s, Mr.

Speak er , I could consider that . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. JUNE WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr. Speak er, my question is addressed to the Tourism Minister. Would the Honourable Minister please deny that he has today selected a unique personage - I am using what are alleged to be his words - to represent the province in the tourism season and that this is a 21- year old woman, to be known as "The Golden Girl"? MR. SPEAKER : Orders of the Day . The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (S turgeon Creek ): No , Mr. Speak er , I won't deny it.

I can 1 t see anything wrong with having an ambassador for the province of Manitoba known as "The Golden Girl". We are very proud of all our girls and women in the province of Man itoba. And I would als o say , Mr. Speaker , I do n't know her age . MRS WESTBURY : I was reading from the Minister 1 s own handout . I'm sur prised he hadn 't read it himse lf. Mr.

Speaker, is it true that in the Minister 's statement he stated that , "This woman is a personage reflecting imagery distin ct to Manitoba , qualities such as a vibrancy of yo uth , golden opportu nities , the abundance of sunshine, the economic well -being and the golden harve st ," - pre sumably the golden harvest is a symbol of fertility - "are all embodied in the "Golden Girl" concept , and the most obvious - 2346 -

Monday , 14 April , 1980 connection is the Golder n Girl 's counterpart role to Manitoba' s most enduring sym bol, the Golden Boy ." Can we then , Mr. Speak er, can we take this statement as a confirmation that the rumour abroad in Winnipeg that the Golden Boy is to be replaced by a Sterling Lyo n, is not true? -- ( Interje ction)- - MR. JOHNST ON: I thank the honourable member for the ad . I appreciate the advert ising . We are very pleased with our choice of ambassador , that will be crossing the provinces with the ambassadors from the other provinces . The last part of her question is not worth answering . MR.

SPEAK ER: supplem entary . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final MRS. WESTBU RY: Mr. Speaker , was this position bulletin ed and what were the qualities that were bein g looked for in the appointment of this position? MR. JOHNSTON: We ll, her quali ties are such that she 's a graduate of Red River College , in communications ; she 's worked with the Tourism Departm ent ; she 's worked as a tourist guide at this building ; she has been very experienced and knowledgeable about the province of Manitoba . Her qualifications are excellent for the job .

There was a very large number of suggestions made, and I think that having a very smart looking young girl that is looking at Manitoba for the future , instead of having a Trapper John or the Sailor from Nova Scotia , I think our representative will be one that we 'l l all be very proud of. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere . MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr. Speak er. I have a question for the Minister of Education. Could the Minister advise as to the current status of the proposed new regional high school at !le des Chene s, Manitoba? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON .

KEITH A. COSENS (G im li): The matter is still under consider ation , Mr. Speak er. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr. Speak er. A further question to the Minister of Education . Could he inform the House as to whether he has met with the group which is asking for that high school , as he has app arently met with the group which is opposing it? MR. COSENS : No, Mr. Speaker , I have not met with the group that the Member for Rossm ere refers to nor have I met with any other group other than the school board . Another group did meet with my executive assi stant, however , and left a petition that was forwarded to me .

MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supplem entary . MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . Could the Minister advise as to whether it is his intention to have either himself or his executive assi stant meet with the group which is asking for this new regional high school? MR. COSENS: Yes , Mr. Speak er , I have sent a lette r to that group signify ing that that type of communication or that type of meeting would be quite feas ible in the near future . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Kildon an. MR. PETER FOX: Thank you , Mr. Speaker .

To the Minister of Labour , in view of Judge Baryluk 's criticism on the Provincial Labour Departm ent elevator inspect ion proceed ure , can the Minister indicate whether the backlog of inspect ions has been caught up with and whether there 's an improvem ent and whether the Min.ister has sufficient inspectors on staff now? - 2347 -

Monday , 14 April , 198 0 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON . KEN MacMASTER (T hompson ): I would think , Mr. Speak er , it's an inter pretation of the word 's ufficient '; we believe that we have sufficient people on staff. MR. FOX: Would the Honourable Minister indicate whether he has caught up on the backlog of inspections that were supposed to be done annually? MR. MacMASTER: I don 't think, Mr. Speaker , that the Act spec ifies annually , it spec ifies when deemed and when requi red , and I think that we are do ing a sufficient job in that area . MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kildo nan with a final supple mentary . MR. FOX: In view of the Minister 's also public statement that he is not going to create any legislation in respect to aprons on elevators , which has been in place for 14 years in Ontario , can he indicate what other safety measures he is taking in respect to el evator safety? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speak er, I notice the members opposite are making reference to ladders and rope s, our empha sis is that people do not try to get out of the elevator via any means except the doorways when it comes to a particular flo or.

That has created some tragedies in the history of not only Manitoba but in the country . To that extent , the members opposite are aware that the posted signs, hopefully in all elevators in the Province of Manitoba, advising people that there was in fact no fear of them if in fact they stayed within the ele vator , the problem is created when people try to get out of the elevators . We have set up a log system , Mr. Speaker , and we thin k that it is being done as reasonable as possib le. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwooo. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speak er , I would like to follow that up and ask the Minister whether it is not in fact true that he is ignoring the reco mmendations of the inquest , name ly that it is because of the lack of inspectors and because of the lack of inspections that this death occurr ed ; is it not true that he is in fact reje cting that rec ommendation by the judge? MR. MacMASTER: I do n't really want to get into a debate about the incident of the particular fatality but I would suggest to you , Mr.

Speak er , that if in fact an elevator was inspected at 2:0 0 o' clock and somebody tried to get out of that elevator at 2:0 5 and was caught between doors , it wouldn 't have mattered whether you di d the inspection at 2:0 0 o' clock or 1:3 0. MR. DOERN: Mr. Spea ker , I think it 's clear that the Minister is in fact re jec ting the recom mendations of the inquiry . I ask him whether it is not true that that elevator was in fact known to be malf unctioning for many months , if not for a per od of over a year . It is because of the fact that the e wasn 't a regular inspection that that death occurred.

I ask the Minister whether he can comment on that? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: I think some of what the Member for Elmwood has said came out in the inquiry , but I suggest to the m, mber again , Mr. Speaker , that it doesn 't particularly matter exactly the time that you inspect an elevator if people insist on trying to get out . That was part of the reco mmendations also and we are livin g up to that , to endeavour to educate people that they should not try to get out of the elevato rs.

Further to the question from the Member for Kildon an, we haven 't totally dis missed the apron idea . I know the paper says it sounds pretty heavy ; in fact, it insinuates that we have di smissed it, but our information is that when the aprons - 2348 -

Monday , 14 Apri l, 1980 under the elevators are in pla ce, it has created some problems with people attempting to maintain the elevato rs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supple mentary . MR. DOERN: Mr. Speak er , I am rather taken aback at the answers of the Minister and I ask him again whether he doesn 't feel that by having a larger inspection force looking at the hundreds or thousands of elevators in the province , that he might not first of all ensure their proper functioning and , second ly, eliminate the possibilit y of similar disasters occurring?

The Minister simply argues that if he inspec ts an elevator today it might malfunc tion tomorrow? Is he suggesting that inspections are totally useless in regard to elevator safety? MR. MacMASTER: Absolutely not , Mr. Speaker . I am just saying that regard less of the number of inspec tions the empha sis has to be on educating people to stay within the elevator and not try to get out of it, or other incidents in history dictate that peop le have tried to open the doors to get into the elevator when in fact the elevator wasn 't even there . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kildon an. MR. FOX: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Labour , in view of the experience in Ontario for 14 years with a tremen dously much greater volu me of elevators than in Manitoba, would not the Minister concur that it was a ha sty decisi on , or a hasty stateme nt , that they were going to reject aprons in this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member that whether a Minister concurs or agrees or disagrees is basically not a question seeking information. Would the member care to rephrase his question? MR. FOX: Ye s, thank you , Mr . Speak er.

Would the Minister comment in respect to the Ontario legislation? Would he not believe that the Ontario govern ment would have changed their legislation if it had not been effective for 14 years? MR. MacMASTER: We ll, there have been several gove rnments in power during that last 14 years that might have reviewed that particular situation , Mr. Speaker. We are the first ones, and I am the first Minister to have a look at that option. If the Member for Kildonan had been listening , I think that my amswer to the last questi on was that the

article in the paper that he is reading from says that we have totally rejecte d it and I told him that that was a pretty harsh hard line , that we haven 't total ly reje cted it, that we are reviewing that because it has now been brought to our attention that there is a possibility of danger to the maintenance people who try to get in under the elevators to maintain them. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital . MR. D. JAMES WALDI NG: Mr.

Speak er, my question is to the Minister report ing for Hydro : I would li ke to ask him il' he could cl arify his statement of last week where he said that the previous government had signed a 20-year Hydro agree ment for a divers iLy exchange to the U.S. at a price of 6 mils when the cost of prod uction was 30 mils. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAI K: Mr. Speak er , the member can refer to the 1976 National Energy Board hearings. It is all contained therein. MR. WALD ING : I would like to ask the Minister a supplementar y question , Mr.

Speaker , whether , if that was a diversity exchan ge , whether the province of Manitoba , or Manitoba Hydro , would purchase power at the same price at which it sold it? - 2349 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Hydro . MR. CRAI K: Mr. Speak er, under that agreem ent , no. MR. SPEAKER: supple mentary . The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a final MR. WALDING: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker : Is the Honourable Minister now prepared to give an undertaking to the people of this province that in the event that the province enters into an agreement to sell firm power to Albert a, that it will not se ll that power below the full costs of the produc tion and transmission? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speak er, that question has been dealt with at an earlier question period . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchi ll . MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Labour. Approxim atel y two weeks ago , I asked the Minister to report on a possible asbestos contamination problem at the Leaf Rapids town centre . I also requested information in this regard by letter dated October 23, 1979 .

As it has been six months since the initial requ est , my question to the Minister is can he now inform the House as to the current status of that investigation of this potential , or possible asbestos contamination problem at the Leaf Rapids town centre? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: Correspondenc e, Mr. Speak er , has taken place between our selves and the people in Leaf Rapids and in addition to what the Member for Churchill had requested and the letter requested , we have asked for additional samples from other portions of the complex . MR.

COWAN : I would hope that the Minister would be prepared to table a copy of that corresponden ce, or a carbon copy to my se lf, in that regard . My qu estion is to the Minister of Public Works : Can the Minister indicate if any sys tematic inventory of government buildings has been undertaken to det ermine if asbestos contamination exists in any of those buildings and that employees and the public may unknowingly be exposed to asbestos contamination? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON . HARRY J. ENNS ( Minister of Government Services )( Lakeside ) : Mr.

Speaker , I' ll be happy to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAK ER: supple mentary . The Honourable Member for Churc hill with a final MR. COWAN: A final supplementary to the Minister of Labour , Mr. Speaker , and perhaps he wishes to undertake it as it asks for detailed information. Can the Minister indicate how many asbestos cases were brought bef ore the Worker 's Compensation Board during the previous year? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: I' 11 attempt to get that particular information for the mem ber.

I should tell him, as I'm sure he is aware , that in making your presentations on situations that deal with people in an alleged set of circum stances you are at tempting to establish that if in fact it was asbestos related . I'm sure that 's what he wants to know and I'l l attempt to get him the numbers that made alle gations, with or without support , to the Workmen 's Compensation Board , that were clai ming sickness or ill ness as it felt it related to asbestos . - 2350 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Logan . MR. WILLIA M JENK INS: Thank you , Mr. Speak er . My question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour. During the est imates debate on his department , I raised a question on elevator inspe ction , namely in the apartment block on Henderson Highway , Parkside Plaza . I' m not quite sure of the number; it's eith er 1662 or 1632 , where there are no certificates of inspection in that building , on the three elev ators operat ing in that buildi ng. I was in that buildi ng again this morning, Mr.

Speak er , and there still are no inspection certificates . Has the Minister inspected that buildi ng, or has his inspectors inspected that building? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. 1"JacMASTER: Mr. Speak er, I am a little concer ned bec ause I was assured that that particular area had been inspe cted , that a licence had been issued and that the licence was in fact on the premises and that someone had removed it from the elevator . I was particularly assured that within hours that licence would be replaced and that the holder for it was still in place .

I can only assure the member that I relate to him what I knew to be the facts as I was told at that time and that , quite obviously , it has either been removed again or someone hasn 't been tellin g me the whole story . MR. JENKI NS: That you , Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for that inform ation and I hope that he 'l l look into it. Another question for the Minister is this : Has the Minister recei veo a copy of the inquiry that was held in Ontario with regard to aluminum wiring and its hazards? If such a copy is availab le , would he make it available to the Members of the Opposition as well? Mr.

MacMASTER: I don 't recall reading the particular copy . I know that there are some available and I' 11 make one available to the mem ber. I do know that in Manitoba we have had absolutely no fires as they relate to aluminum wir ing. I remember an

article some place in the past that I read and I had that checked out by my depar tment . We have not had any probl ems in the province of Manitoba as it relates to aluminum wiring but I will still attempt to get that copy and get it to the membe r. Further, I knew that there was more to the Leaf Rapids town centre asbestos situation ; I had forgotten part of it. The first series of tests , to the Member for Churchi ll, established that in fact there was no asbestos within the material that was sent to our office. That was the first set .

Because of the members be ing inquisitive and mentioning other parts I think just in conversation during my estimates I' ve asked the department to ask for other samples . But the first set s, as it relates to the member 's speci fic question, have been tested and there was no danger in those particular first sample s. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonne t. MR. USKIW : Mr. Speak er , I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment whether or not he is aware of the procedures employed to ensure public safety at the CIL dynami te storage plant at East Selk irk. MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister Responsible for the Environment. HON . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morr is) : Mr. Speaker , I am going to have to take that question as notice. MR. USKIW : Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Minister would also take under advisement the suggest ion , as least it has been suggested to me , that there is no round- the-clock supervision of the site and theref ore there is obviously a question of children getting into the site and always a question of explosive devices bei ng set on fire , or whatever.

I think it's reasonable to expect that such a fa cility should have round-the- clock super vision, Mr. Speake r. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I shall have that question looked into. - 2351 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril, 198 0 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourabl e Member for Inks ter. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speak er , I was going to pose a question to the Minister of the Environment but I' ve dec ided to be merciful in view of his probl em with his voice . Mr. Speaker, I'd like to again ask the question to the Minister of Finance to whom Hydro report s. Can the Minister tel l the House whether the chairman of the committee that was negotiatin� on behalf of Hydro used to be a Mr.

Ross Nugent , Q.C . , and that the Minister of Finance himself has now taken over the position of chairman of that negotiating committee , on behalf of Manitoba Hydro? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, there is a joint committee of Hydro and the government department on this matter but as far as being the chief negotiator , I can't assu me that titl e. I had one meeting with the parties on one occasion, Mr. Spea ker , but the general negotiation, the meetings being hel d on the specific items are being hel d between the util ities .

I woul d indicate to the member and whoever might be interested that the government does intend , though , to play a very active role in working with Hydro on the aspects of the agreement from the Manitoba point of view. Those actual ly in negotiation with the utility from Nebraska invol ve peopl e from Manitoba Hydro and not myself . MR. GREEN: Yes , Mr .

Speak er, giving due al lowance to the Minister 's modesty in not wishing to accept titl es and accepti ng his confirmation that the government has involved itsel f and intends to invol ve itsel f very much in the negotiations, is the Minister prepared to cl ear up to the Manitoba public the position that the government is taking vis- a-vis these negotiations as distinct and that woul d be taken by the Hydro board if the government was not invol ved , thereby cl earl y del ineating, Mr. Speak er, responsibi lity for decisions as was suggested by Mr. Ju stice Tritschl er? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker , I think I shoul d take the opportunity to cl arify that the intent of the governm ent , and I think it 's in agreement with the intent of the Tritschler report , is that on matters that invol ve social versus util ity matte rs, that there should be a cl ear del ineation, and I think we have done that in instances such as the demand billing charges on recreation facil ities . The government has made a fairl y cl ear stated policy to the util ity that if there is an extra cost borne by freeing the recreation facilities from demand billing the government would carry the cost .

We are trying to keep those kinds of lines of communication cl ear . MR. SPEAKER : Order, order ple ase . I hope that the answers we 'r e getting will not lead to debate during the Question Period . The Honourabl e Minister of Finance. MR. CRAI K: Mr. Speak er, just to finish, but in the quest ions at hand , those of extra provincial negotiations , the government has made it very clear that it intends to pl ay an active rol e in those negotiations . And in fact we indicated in the Throne Speech the intention to bring in leg isl ation with respect to an energy authority , Mr.

Speaker , and that is the intent of that legisl ation. And at this point in ti me , to clarify it, we have indicated we have been negotiating with the Hydro peopl e with regard to the contents of their of their letter of intent so it doesn 't hit a roadblock when it gets to Cabinet . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourabl e Member for Inkster with a final suppl emen tary . MR. GREEN: Ye s, Mr . Speker .

In view of the fact that the outcome of these negotiations and the speed at which the interconnections or the exchange of power is effec ted can have dram atic ef fects on when or if work has to commence on Limestone , will the government accept responsibility for now te lling Hydro , as it has done and making it clear to the public that Hydro is not perm itted to enter into this beneficial arrangement because the government has prevented them from doing so? - 2352 -

Monday , 14 Apr il , 1980 MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speak er, I think it's perhaps important to advise the member that the agreement in question that he is talkin g about is not one that advanc es the construction of Limestone . If anything, it moves it in the other direc tion. So there is no great ha ste , Mr. Speak er , to move the construction further back on Limestone . The efforts of the government have been in regard to the Canadian negotions to move the construction forward . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. FOX: Ye s, Mr. Spea ker , to the Minister of Health.

On March 24th, Page 1463 of Hansard , the Minister promised to investigate and report on professional standards of pharmacis ts. Can he indicate the status of that investigation and report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Heal th. MR. SHERMAN : Ye s, Mr. Speak er. I have in fact heard from the professional association itself on the subject and in addit ion to that we asked the Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee , the statutorily empowered committee appointed by government in that field , to look at the survey and the methodology of that survey .

The Manitoba Society of Professional Pharmacists has investigated themselves and have re sponded with a very leng thy report which I certainly cannot capsu lize at this juncture , Mr. Speak er , alth ough I would be prepared to tempt to capsulize it and bring that form of answer into the House within the next day or two. Other than that , I can deal with it during my estimates which I believe are due to be call ed fairly shor tl y. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a final question. MR. FOX: Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker . I thank the Honourable Minister for the information.

I hope he would also be prepared to give us a copy of the report instead of having to take up the time of the House . Secondly , the Honourable Minister promised to file a report with the Committee on Childr en 's Dental Program. What is the status of that report? MR. SHERMAN: That is also coming, Mr. Speaker. That has been the subject of discussion with the Chairman of the Review Committee and also with the executive of the Manitoba Dental Association. Once again , it can be dealt with either way . As the honourable member knows, the

schedule for estimates was restructu red last week and since those items will be coming up in my estimates and I intend to deal with them at length ther ein . But I also will be tabling that report . It has been dealt with in discussion between my office and the Chai rman of the Committee and I wanted to complete those discussions before tabling it and issuing a covering statement on it. That is in the pro cess , Mr. Speak er , and should be available within the next few days. MR. SPEAK ER: Order plea se .

The time for question period having expir ed , I am holding an Order for Return in my name pending receipt of Hansard . The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. MERCIER: I move , Mr. Speaker , seconded by the Minister of Government Servi ces, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty .

MOTION presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Government Ser vices . - 2353 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES CHAIRMAN , Mr. Morris McGregor (V irden ): Committee come to ord er. We are dealing with Resolution 71 . 2.( a) (l )- -pas s. The Member for Logan. MR. WI LLIAM JENKINS : Before we pass this item , I do n't recall the Minister giving us a breakdown on staff man years or anything , could the Minister give us a break down for this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , there is no di fference on this item, 15 staff man years provided for in 1979- 80 est imates , the same 15 being requested for this year . The increase of some $4 ,0 00 is salary adjus tments. MR. JENKI NS: There are no vacancies at the present time , they are all filled? MR. ENNS: I am advised that there are some vacancies but there always are in the field services MR. JENK INS : The one I'm interested in in particular , in the executive administrat ion, there are no vacancies at the present time , is that correc t? MR. ENNS: No . MR. JENKINS: Okay , I am prepared to let that item go. MR.

CHAIRM AN: 2. (a) (l)- -pas s. MR. JENKINS: Could the .Minister just give us a brief explanation why there is a reduction in Other Expenditur es , are we using less paper and pencils and erasers this year or what? then? MR. CHAIRMAN : I never really got to call and you are ask ing for 2.( a)

(2) MR. JENKINS : No 2. (a) (2) yes . MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes 2. (a )( l)- -p ass ; 2.( a) (2 ). MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairm an , the slight reduction here of some $4 , 000 is a re duction in automobile expenses in travel that we expect will be sli ghtly reduced by this amount . MR JENKINS : Could the Minister give us an explanation of why he antici pates less automobile travel this year as compared to last year? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Cha irman, I am advised that it would likely arise from the fact that the amount of moneys being asked for in 1980- 81 proved sufficient for last yea r's operation ana we are budgetin g for the same this year . MR. JENKINS : Wel l, maybe I am misunderstand ing the Minister but I see last year we had $42 , 800 and this year we are budgeting for a figure of $38 , 800 which is a reduc tion of about some $4 ,0 00 . The Minister had said that they anticipated there would be less automobile travel and what I want to know is why will there not be as much automobil e travel this year? - 2354 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chai rman, I promised myself this morning when I woke up that I would not unnecessarily provoke any committee membe rs . We are dealing with an item of $4 ,0 00 from a budget of $47 million which in my judg ement shows - and it's something that I have attempted to impress on the staff of Government Services and which I am happy to say is being foll owed through by senior staff of Government Services - that we budget for those reasonable sums of money that we think is necessar y to carry on an operation. Certainly , Mr.

Chairm an , the exercise of government is not to hold onto some particular figure or to attempt to, in all instances , be able to match last year 's expenditures. If there has been a minute saving - and we are talking about a very minute saving here involved and senior staff indicates that they can live with this figure - then I think that 's merely a matter of good housekeeping practice. There are other little items that I could refer to. I'm not so sure whether they refer to this instance .

The member will become aware as we proceed with the est imate s, that we have substantially shifted to compact cars , for instance, which in itself has helped , despite increasing ene rgy cos ts, to bring about some holding of the line or indeed a reduction in the costs of oper ating government vehicles by governm ent .

It may well be that the combination or' that , plus a little harder look at the amount of trave llin g and the needs for trave l, consolidation through the Deputy Minister 's office, the Minister 's office , as to the numbers of people attending conferen ce s, etc., that 's the only explanation that I can really make for this situation. MR . JENKINS : I thank the Minister for that information, and I promised myse lf that I am not going to try and provoke the Minister unnecessa rily , althoug h I may provoke him later on. That 's one of the hazards we go through in the est imates procedure .

I'm not trying to be picayune . The Minister 's explanation is one that sounds feasible and when we get to the item of Central Vehicle Bra nch, I read the Minister 's statement that he made, and I'l l be raising some questions there with him on that . As long as the Minister feels that there is sufficient money here , then that 's fine , I'm prepared to let the item go. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass . Logan. 2. (a) (2)- -p ass . 2. ( b) ( 1) --pass - the Member for MR. JENKINS : Yes , Mr. Chairman , I see there 's an imately $59 ,0 00 .00. Is there a larger staff this year? staff in the maintenance?

Or is it just the anticipated makes the dif ference in the change here? increase here of approx Have you taken on more increases in salar y that MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS : No , Mr. Chairman. There has, in fact, been some redu ction in the total staff of maintenance. The increase however accounts for , again, the distribution of the general salary increases and the increments in the staffing requirements of this department . There are some 467 staff man years provided for in this division.

So the honourable member will appreciate that the increase noted there is attributable to salary increases . MR. JENKINS : I re alize that this may be a fluctuating figure but what was the rough figure last year and what is the Minister budgeting for this year? MR. ENNS : Last year the figure was 499 . MR. JENKINS: 499 , and this year , what 's the Minister ••• ? MR. ENNS: To 467 . MR. JENK INS : 467 . Okay , thank you . MR. CHAIRM AN: (b) (l)- -p ass ; (b) (2)- -pass - the Member for Logan . - 2355 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 MR. JENKINS: Could the Minister just give us a brief explanation of this expenditure and just what is involved in this expenditure? It 's approximately $7 .5 mill ion. MR. ENNS: Other Expenditures? MR. JENKINS : Ye s, Other Expend itures. MR. ENNS: We have a number of new facilities coming on st ream in this year. I can list them for the honourable member.

The environmental lab is not yet on stream but we have to budget for it in this year 's est imates ; tse Provincial Courthouse at 373 Broadway ; the Broadway Home for Girls ; Bannock Point ; five remote nursing stations ; and Egg Lake Rehabilitation Camp. This totals up some $346 ,0 00 .0 0. We then have also included in this item the grant to Churc hill which has been increased by some 10 percent from the $460 , 000 last year to $5 05 ,0 00 this year. I should indicate that that 's not necessarily the total operating costs of the Chur chill complex , that is our portion that we are paying to the LGD.

I have asked my staff the same question and asked for whether or not the LGD has some addit ional figures to add to that. In addition this vote C'-<lls for a 20 percent increase , 20. 5 percent to be accurate , for fuel increases. After al l, adjustments have been made for Churc hill and new build ings and we have also increased this adj ustment by some 4 per cent , or 3.9 percent to be accurate , for utilities. The Department of Government Services assum es, in many of these build ings, the entire costs for fue l, utilit ies and other miscellaneous expenses associated with the operation of these buildings. MR.

JENKINS : I thank the Minister for that information. The Other Expenditures de aling with these new build ings coming on stream : the environmental lab in the core area ; the Courthouse here on Broadw ay ; the Broadway Home for Girls ; and the Bannock Point Nursing Station. Would this be for furnishings in the buildi ngs? Is that what these Other Expenditures would cove r, or is that covered under the Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Asse ts? MR. ENNS: That would be covered under that appropriation. These costs are for those items mentioned, actually field cos ts, utility costs , and /or staffing costs.

We have assig ned four addit ional people in the 373. Within the judi cial complex , for instance, there 's an increase of four additional security peop le, as a result of the new facility coming onstream. MR. JENKI NS: Thank yo u, Mr. Chairman. How about the Environmental Lab. Is there a security on there? MR. ENNS: I believe we have now a caretak er , or a maintenance man on staff. If not on staff now, because it's under construction, but we 'v e had to make provisions in this set of esti mates, for one person.

In addition to that we are providing for the salar y arrangements for a building manager , essentially or basically assig ned to the new Environmental Lab , but with the possibil ity that he will share some respo nsibilities at the new provincial garage. We have a chap supervising the provincial garage at this time because there are activities taking place in the garage and it's deemed necessary that we have some staff person at the garage to look after the concerns that we would have about the building. MR. JENKINS : Ye s, thank you , Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that information.

Now the Minister said that they ' re increasing the grant to the Chur chill LGD for the maintenance of the Churc hill Centre , I do n't know whether I just misunderstood him, but he 's waiting for some operating cost figures from the LGD itself. Would the Minister be anticipating that if the costs have risen considerably , that he would look favourably to maybe increasing that grant to assist the LGD? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chai rman, I can indicate the following information to the honourable members about the operating costs of the Churchill Complex , which - 2356 -

Monday , 14 April, 1980 continue to be a major concern to the Department of Gove rnment Services , but not to speak of a major concern to the LGD of Churchill.

In 1979 the actual operating costs for the Centre were $791 .6 thousand ; we are projecting the 1980 costs to be at $941. 7 thousand which , in effec t, is very near to the million do ll ars that is sometimes referred to as the operating costs; of which la st year , by compariso ns , to answer the Member for Logan 's questions , last year the provincial gover nment provided a direct grant of $461 ,0 00 as compared to this year 's $505 ,0 00 - I'm rounding off, the re 's decimal points of two or three - there are an additi onal $271 ,0 00 worth of operations for which the LGD receives support reven ue, that is, from agencies operating within the compl ex , provincial agenc ies operating in the complex - such as the hospital facility , the school facilit ies , and so forth , that 's your Department of Education , Department of Health supports.

Municipal Affairs supports the operations of the LGD 's office, which is maintained in the compl ex, leaving a balance of some $164 ,9 00 for the LGD or the tax ratepayers of the LGD of Churchill to pick up. By way of comparis on , the costs of the centre are some $9 41, OOO, of which $1 64, 000 is borne by the lo cal tax base. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information. Then I take it from his answer that there is no federal support for this centre whatsoever.

Has the Minister and the government made representations , because I think we woul d not be in di sagreement on this, in that Churchil l being situated where it is and the fact that there is a lack of federal support for , not onl y the townsite but also for the port facility , has the Minister , or is he anticipating putting some pressure on the federal government for some aid in operating this facility?

I think it is necessary that the peopl e who are living at that la titude have a facility of this nature and I am just wondering if the Minister has given any thought in forthcoming federal -pro vincial conferences of making the pitch to Ottawa for some aid for this centre.

I think the use is for the peopl e there and , God knows, it is a God-forsaken place ••• Well , I mean , the climatic conditions there in the wintertime you ca n't have a centre such as we could have here in Winnipeg where we have a much more temperate cl imate and I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that sitting out on that Bay with those northeast and northwest winds sweepin g down , you have to lo ok at a facility much different than what we have here in southern Manitoba.

I think it's incumbent upon the federal government to make some contribution for the upkeep of this centre and I woul d hope that the Minister would seriousl y consider that , he and his govern ment woul d seriousl y consider making represent ation to Ottawa for some support for this centre , in view of the fact that they have been , over the last period of years , withdrawing their support for this centr e. I think if we want to make Churchill a viabl e port then we have to have federal support from Ottawa and we also have to have support services for the peopl e that are there.

I think , in that resp ec t, the Minister and I are not in any dis agreement. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate to the Honourabl e Member for Logan that about a year and a half ago I made a point of visiting the then Minister of Public Works Canada , the Honourabl e Jud Buchanan , with a specific goal in mind to hope full y begin some serious negotiations for some hel p with respect to the operating costs. The original capital construction of the project was shared , I believe , on a 55/ 45 percentage arrangement with the senior government in Ottawa taking the la rger share.

We feel, for many of the reasons that the honourabl e member has just expr essed , that there needs to be some indication of ongoing con cern by the senior government to hel p us with the maintenance and the operation of that centre. We feel that particul arl y so because there seems to have been , in this instance, a number of instances where governments are working at cross pur pose s, particul ar ly when some federal installations are being withdrawn , further reducing the tax base and the number of peopl e left to make use of that facility.

I can onl y assure the honourable member that while the Honourable Jud Buchanan , I understand , is back on the government side of the House I don 't think he is the Minister of Public Works anym ore , but that I will be contacting the new Minister of Public Works Canada once again to seriousl y try to sort out a longer-term sol ution. It throws a very serious imbal ance into the moneys avail abl e to the - 2357 -

Monday , 14 April, 1980 Government Services Depa rtment to have to allocate moneys of this kind of this one particula r proje ct. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information and I wish him well with his new federal counte rpart . I think , in view of the ele ction res ults here in western Canada, that perha ps some pressure should be put on the federal Liberal Party , the federa l Liberal government , that if they want to improve their image in Manitoba, and in western Canad a, this is one pla ce where they can start .

I think that we are fortunate here in Manitoba that we have an ocea n port facilit y ••• --( Interjec tion)-- The Minister of Highways says that we are the only wet prov ince in the Prairies but I don 't know how he means "w et . 11 I certa inly appr ecia te the fact that the Minister has a proble m and I wish him well in his endea vours. My word s, I don 't know if they would carry very much weight with the present Libera l government in Ottawa, but if he wants any he lp, I am certa inly will ing to put my two cen ts' worth in to helping him . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2. (b)(2 }--pa ss ; 2(b) (3) - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I want to ask the Minister how he can justif y a cut , a reduction in what I call preventive maintenance , which they call prevent ative maintenance, from $2 79 ,0 00 to $219 ,0 00 .0 0. There is a cut there of $60 ,0 00 and I guess about , what , 25 percent reduction. Then in the broad picture , in the whole maintenance are a, you have an increase of only some 3 per cent .

This is what really concerns me , that this adm inistration has been, first of al l, doing very little in the way of capita l construction and when it comes to maintenance, which is not a very gla morous area, they are squeezing it dry . I rega rd this as a matter of being penny wise and pound foolish. They are going to eli minate pro grams whereby , I think, money can be saved .

Anybody who drives a car or owns a home , I think, knows that if you don 't properly maintain something , especially when it has to do with any sort of machinery or even just pa int and genera l up ke ep, that you are going to pay possibly a lot more than you would have if you had done so on a regula r basis. I have to say to the Minister that this has to be an area that he ha s ei ther underest imated or he ha s been pushed around in Cabinet . There is great temptation by other Ministers , or by the First Minister, to say, well you know, maintenance, we 'l l just cut money out of that ; we can do without it.

I think th at his reduction here in this particula r sect ion is really short -sighted and what 's going to happen is in the long run that price is going to be paid. It reminds me of an editoria l in one of the loca l papers in the la st da y or two which talked about the government 's property tax credit . They said before you start da ncing in the streets, you better keep your eye out for the potholes and so I'm saying that government is putting potholes and then at some point is going to have to fill them up . So I ask the Minister how he can justif y this and what he has eli minated . I'd like to know, Mr.

Chairman , what has been cut out of that item and how the Minister can just ify a $60 ,0 00 reduction when he should be stand ing here defending a $60 ,0 00 increa se , which would have been probably money in vested . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairma n , I can assure the honourable former Minister of Public Works that this Minister of Public Works probably gets a simila r number of phone calls from feisty First Ministers compla ining about front doors not operat ing, particula rly in cold weather and/ or any other genera l circumstances , partic ularly around this build ing, that Ministers or the First Ministers are prone to complain about to Government Servic es . The member raises a point that we are con cerned about .

I'v e expressed the same concern to senior staff that maintenance not be allowed to suffer , particula rly in the public build ings that we opera te . I should indicate to the honourable mem ber, I beli eve or at lea st I' m informed by staff , that there 's been a shift of some $300 , OOO worth of est imates or of maintenance work, that some of which was normally in this appro priation is being included in our Construction/A cquisit ion program.

In other word s, that there are a number of smaller items being chara cterized either way as maintenance or renova tion, if you like , and it's a judgement decis ion as to whether it's included in the Construction/A cquisit ion or in the Maintenance Budget that you have bef ore - 2358 -

Monday , 14 April , 1980 us here . There is some $300 ,0 00 addit ional what could be termed as maintenance work in the Construction/Acquisit ion program . A further feature that makes this reduction possible , we believe , is a greater recovery or a greater involvement of some of the lin e departments in providing some of the funds for the kind of maintenance or renovation work within their departm en ts. We 'r e satisf ied, Mr.

Chairman, that while we will want to monitor this area carefully , that the general maintenance level of public buildings will be maintained and cared for with this set of esti mates before you . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just say in this particular area that the government is being consiste nt. In terms of capital they are , first of all , not undertaking much in the way of new develo pments or new construction and , secondly , in the maintenance department they 'r e simply making an overall increase of 3 per cent .

Given that there 's an inflation rate of probably 10 percent or more , the net effect is a reduc tion and that sooner or later we 'l l have to pay the price for putting off necess ary maintenance. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Kildon an. MR. FOX : Yes , Mr. Chairman . I wonder in this connection with preventative maintenance whether the Minister can inform us whether the equipment in respect to the solar experiment is still on the building ; whether it 's being maintained or not and , further to that, whether there were any resu lts of the research prepared and what is the status of those repor ts. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the equi pment on top of the this build ing here , of a solar experiment al nature , is essentially kept in a state of readiness for any future work that the new Department of Energy and Mines may well undertake . Discussions have been under way for some time now for that department to assume its appropriate role , I believe , in rese arch and in perhaps developi ng further programs for that plant and equipment that we have stationed on top of this buildin g .

The honourable member will recall that the initial purpose for the experi mentation work up there was to gather data ; data that was germane to the province of Manitoba in terms of what kind of energy was available under our conditions with that kind of equip ment . That data was collecte d for a period of some two yea rs. The simple recollecti ng that same data over a prolonged period of time was not serving any further useful purpos e. There was no practical application of the experiment , other than the heating of some water, that was envisaged at that time .

We expe ct , however , that the new Department of Energy and Mines will take and , in fact, is taking a look at the plant that is upstairs and will be devising some new research programs or some practical applications of that in the very near future . MR. FOX: Has any of that data been coll ated and are there any resu lts, or has it just been left in abeyance after the project was abandoned? MR. ENNS: We ll, the data has been made available to , particularly , inter ested groups , the Solar Society of Manitoba.

The department has two years ago , I believe , issued a rather len gthy report on the experime ntation. Current plans are , by the Department of Energy , to see whether or not we can't introduce some supp lementary heatin g of water for this building as a practical application of the units on top of the build ing and have it serve that function from hereon in. But I would have to say , Mr. Chairm an, that the responsibility for further work having to do with the solar equipment now re sts with the jurisdiction of the Department of Energy and Mines. MR. FOX: I just have one other question.

I'm not sure whether it will come under prev entive maintenance, but it is in the report in respect to the quarterly construction pro ject ion reporting system . Are those available and could we have copies of them? Are they going out quarterly? - 23 59 -

Monday , 14 Apr il, 1980 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairm an, I thank the Honourable Member for Kildonan for that question .

It enables me to indicate to members of the Committee that result ing from meetin gs with various interested groups , principally the construction industry spoke sme n, some of the professional associations such as archite cts and consult ing engineers as well as organized labour , again particularly in the con struction industry , who have agreed that such a quarterly listing of proje cts, not simply the ones that are under way or the ones that have been approved of, in all it's final stages , but the ones that are being contemplated by government and it's agencies would be helpf ul in enabling the construction industry , organized labour and other associations associated with the construction industry , give them a better opportunity to plan their work schedules and their manpower schedules as these reports are availab le .

My understanding from my Deputy Minister is that the first iss uance of this report is imminent within the next week or 10 days , or the commitment was made that it would be available before the end of April. I must indicate to the honourable members that this has some rather far -reaching ramifications in that buildi ngs haven 't yet received , for instance, ap proval in departmental est imates. Indeed as the honourable members are well aware , none of the projected construction

schedule that is contemplated by the Department of Government Services or indeed any other de partment of governmen t, can in fact proceed until final legislative authority is granted with the passage of the est imates ; and therefore , you will note on that report , and this will be a public document and members of the opposition will receive it, and I will under take to see that they get it, there is the line not unsimilar to the line that is used by the Department of Highways when they , in order to flatten out their tendering process in advance of estimate approval , have by long-standing prac tice been able to tender out upwards to 20 percent of the highways construction work in advance of legislative app roval of the neces sary funds .

It has been accepted by the industry , in this case by the road builders that these tenders are tendered out subject to app roval by the leg islat ure of necess ary funds. It is a techni cality that has to be of some concern to us because a change of governme nt , for instance, and a change of direc tion could make some of these pro je cted con struction efforts not take pla ce. MR.

FOX: Can the Minister indicate the mailing list that this will go out to , and further let me ask him , does this indicate that his government has now changed it's direc tion and is not going to rely solely upon private enterprise to buoy the economy but is going to inject public enterprise as well into making the Manitoba ec onomy get better? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, one of the prime reasons for introducing this report is to indicate that outside of the Hydro activity the amount of con struction activity undertaken by the public and it's agenc ies has di ffered slig htly in the last two years as compared to the last four or five years of the New Democratic Party administration.

That is a point which has always been regret tably overlook ed , that this report will contain last year for instance it was in the range of be tween $400 million to $500 million worth of construction activity that was undertaken by the public , and to that extent the member for Kildonan is quite right , this government has never abandoned the public involve ment in terms of pla ying it 's role in the economic stimulation in the affairs of this province.

What has happened , of course , and the missing li nk to the econ omic generator in this province in terms of the construction industry is the very sub stantial amount of Hydro doll ars being spent on the Nelson.

But the accumul ation or the put ting together of the total number of dollars to be spent by the Public School Finance Board , by MTS, by Hydro despite the obvious cutback in terms of its major operation of the Nels on, by all other government department s, principally the Departments of Health in their personal care home construction, their hospital renovation and new construction ; when you put these thi ngs together it will indicate . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister for Elmwood on a point of order . MR.

DOERN: I think we are getting a little off the topic here , namely , we are talking about maintenance and now the Minister is getting very very general - 2360 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 and I think I have to remind him that he 's getting off the topic . If he want's to debate that I would be happy to do that but otherwise we 'r e not going to in any way follow the est imates bef ore us. MR. CHAIR MAN: The point of order is well taken . The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Ye s, I just have a comment to make Mr. Chairman, and if it is in order I would li ke to indicate that the Minister now indicates he 's trying to out -socialize the socialists by having a projection in respect to construction, not necessarily construction, but projected pro ject ion of construction. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I' m just not sure where I should ask this ques tion , so I'm going to ask the question through you to the Minister and perhaps he can give me an idea where to ask this question. It's dealing with entrance to this building off Memorial Boulevard . Who has the jurisdiction over the entrance into the build ings across Broadway , is it the --( Interjection )- - • MR. ENNS : I believe , Mr. Chairman, the next item - having just been admonished by you , Sir , I am going to be very careful • • MR.

JENKINS : I don 't want to get the Minister into hot water if I can help it I just wanted to ask him just where this item would be and if he says it's the next item I' ll ask the question that I have . MR. ENNS: The next item (

c) which calls for improvements to buildin gs, ground s, alterati ons, furniture might be appropriat e. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elm wood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make some remarks on solar energy - I was going to speak later but it 's been debated under this secti on so I think I may as well speak at this point . My understanding is that the experiment on top of this build ing which was federal funded and provincially funded has be en, in effec t, out of action for the past one to two years .

That , first of all , is some thing that I heard a few months ago and I was quite surprised about and it's been confirmed by the Minister today that , in spite of a fairly extensive expenditure and a great deal of eff ort into that particular program, it's been, in effe ct, cl osed . Now I recall a great deal of talk in the Throne Speech about energy deve lopment and alternate forms of energy .

I'm not certain whether my col league across the table from River Heights spoke about the solar energy experiment but he certain ly, I think, talked about energy and he talked about solar energy - I believe I' m correct in saying that - I made a note at the time that he did so that the solar energy experiment was moribund .

So here we have a gover nment that 's talking in genera lities in a Throne Speech about doing something about energy , which is the hottest topic in Canada today , and then when we come to the prac tical application we see that they aren 't doing anything and that their actions and their words are wide apart and separ ate . So I say to the Minister here is a project that took a great deal of time to devel op . I recall that these things just can't be on track in 24 hours . You can give a green li ght once you have the money and all the approv als, but it still takes a great deal of time .

I recall delays of equipment coming by boat , I think, from Rotterdam , other solar panels being flown in and others being developed in the States, others being Canadian -ma de , and so on . I think, if my memory serves me correc tly , that the experiment was opened in 1977 ; it could have been 1976 but I assume that it was about three years ago that there was a formal openin g of that particular experiment . Then it runs , with some snags , not surprisingly , and some problems , for awhile and now, under the new administration, it is padlocked .

I say , given that that hardware is there , given that there are people who have worked on that proje ct, both within the Department of Public Works , at the University of Manitoba, and that if there was just one person who worked fullt ime on some grant basis on that proj ec t, I think that we should not just let that thing slide . There is a great deal of work to be done . - 2361 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 Manitoba, when that experi ment was opened , was a lea der in sola r energy in North Americ a, and cer tainly a leader in Canad a. There were only a small number of so lar energy experiments that were going on in the country . There were some houses and so on, but when you came to a comparable experim ent , we were at the top of the li st . We experimented with a number of panels ; there wasn't just one kind . We deliberately three or four or five or six di fferent typ es.

I just think that it is regre ttable that the depa rtment has led that thing slide so that it is now decla red inactive . I woul d encourage the Minister to revive the exper iment . He doesn 't now have to go and spend a hundred or a couple of hundred thousand dollars to get that experiment going. I think he can make modifications to it, but I suspect that experim ent , with some modifica tions, could be continued over a number of years and that valuabl e energy could be acquired .

Another point that comes to mind : We tried at one point to develop in this building , and I think it was never really completed , a room in which people could be taken . Maybe the Minister could explain what is being done in that regard . Down in the basem ent , there is a room, the idea was that there could be tours of the build ing and that , particularly school students and citizens , could be taken there and given an educationa l crash course in solar energy . I don 't think that was ever compl eted , because of a shorta ge of funds.

The sola r experiment was located in this building , as opposed to the university , because of the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of tourists who come here annually . If my memory serves me corre ctly , something like a quarter of a million tourists go through this buildi ng every yea r. So , I simply say , the reason was to acquaint the public representa tives at the provinc ial level with sola r energy , to acquaint the tourists , the citizens and the school children with this.

Instead of continuing the experim ent , instead of improving upon the experiment , the Minister simply says, "T he experiment is ove r. " I urge him to revive it, be cause otherwise he and his government are contradicting the position that they have outl ined in the Throne Speech of this session. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Height s. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairm an , with respec t to the matter that the Member for Elmwood has brought up , indeed the Energy Fepartment had some involvement with that experiment and , as I understand it, there were many probl ems with it. It was an inappropriate desi gn .

Some of the pip ing has dete riorated and cannot be used . Some of the parts weren 't compatible in the whole system and as in many experiment s, something was lea rned and that is that the experiment didn 't succeed in the application which was intended . Although it is not in use , it is not in use because it is being evaluated as to what can be done to modify it, as the member has indicated , and what parts of it may be reus ed .

As I understa nd , there are possibilit ies for it to make use of as many of the elements of the project as pos sible and to be redes igned and used for water heatin g within the building . That , at the mome nt, is under review by the Energy Depa rtment . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE : This is an entirely dif ferent subje ct , Mr. Chairman, but if the Minister wants to reply to this specific ally . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b) (3) is what we are on. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairm an, I do n't think any further response is nec ess ary .

I thank the Honourable Member for River Heights for that additional information. The Department of Energy , as I indicated ea rlier , is going to be providin g , direc tl y responding to the question the Member for Elmwood talks about , a dis play area, or a dis play room .

That is a central part of the new department 's thrust , to provide not just a display area for solar , but of biomass energy , traditional uses of energy , at which it is hoped • • • An active program is being developed to involve the public , school childr en, etc . , in a far more expanded way than would ever be possib le , at the top of this building or in some room ferreted away in the basement of this build ing. - 2362 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 Mr. Chairman, let not the Honourable Member for Elm wood leave the impression that there was some great ongoing development of solar energy taking place on this roof. I am not suggesting there was anything wrong with what they did , but that 's all it was, it was a sett ing up of a bank of collectors to collect certain data and it di dn't do all that good of a job. The computer information, the equip ment that they brought on stream never di d work.

The Member for River Heights has already indicated that we did learn some advance about the type of piping , the type of material that we could use . But , you know, the truth of the matter is , I was Minister for three months when somebody suggested to me : You know, Enns , you 'v e got a chap up there on the roof that 's dil igently working away and collec ting data . I said : No , you 'v e got to be kidd ing. When I asked the D.M. at the time to take me up and sure enough , I had a very nice , dedi cated young fel low up there busily transcribing da ta.

I asked him what did he do with the data and , we ll , he didn 't particularly do anything with the data. It all added to a big compilation of data. Far be it from me to stop that kind of a thriving thrust into the modern space and energy problems of this generation. I al lowed him to proceed for another 12 months because we did want to get a whole winter 's collection of da ta, a whole summer 's coll ection of data , and we have all that data . There was no other goal set for that experimen tation other than that . There was a PR goal set for it, of course , at the time of its sett ing up .

I jus t want to point out that there was not a prescribed definition or goal or aim for the proje ct, other than the extraction of data about units of energy that was capable from certain types of collector panels. Having accomplished that it now moves to the next phase of applying some of the information that we have , and indeed apply ing some of the existi ng equip ment that we have up there , to some practical application of energy savings within this building , such as the supple mentary heat to water.

But in essen ce, the members of the opposition will be pleased to know that the Department of Energy is in a downtown publicly accessible portion of Winnipeg , acquiring the space to, in a far more serious way than ever contemplated by the previous administration, to move fully with a high profile into the area of energy . I' m advised that space , by the way , will be available by July . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre has my eye next , unless he wants to forego back to the Member for Elmwood who was maybe going to touch on the same subject . I do n't want to suggest but that 's the way I see it.

The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister tel ling us then that solar energy experimentation in Manitoba is over as far as he is concerned . They 'r e closi ng this experiment off. He thinks it's very funny that there 's somebody working on this and that they 'r e accumulatin g data . Maybe he didn 't know what the experi ment was set up for ; maybe he did n't know what the data was for ; maybe he did n't know what the data was going to be analyzed for , but these programs were all worked out ; they were app roved by the federal governm ent .

There was a great deal of work done on this experiment by one , Bob Gemme l. I assume Mr. Gemmel must have developed so e applicat ions for this, in terms of the intent of the experime nt, and so on . Is he tell ing me right now that al though they 'r e going to do a great deal on ener gy , all these new thrus ts, that this is one of the areas that they are not , in fact , going to proceed with, there 'l l be no more solar energy develop ment in this province by the Province? . Capital "P" in the second case . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Height s. MR. FILMON: Ye s, Mr. Chairman.

In response to that, the areas of the government 's thrust into demonstration projec ts, research and development for alt ernate energy sources are going to come under the Department of Energy , not necessarily under the Department of Government Servi ces. With respect to the experiment on the Legislative Building it's, as the Minister indicated , intended to be turned into a long-term practical application in which the solar energy would be used to supplement water heating in the building. - 2363 -

Monday , 14 April, 1980 The other areas that we are currently lookin g at and just awaiting the federal government 's signing of the Federal-Provincial Energy Agreem ent , which will allow us to fund a number of alte rnate energy proje cts , many of which will be in the field of solar energy . MR. DOERN: Wel l, then I understand that

whereas the Minister doesn 't know what 's happening on the roof of this building , that I am now informed that the exper iment will continue under another departme nt . And I mention again that one of the reasons that our administration got into this experiment was that the federal government tried to encourage the provinces to do things . I assum e that there is federal money available for certain projects of this type and I assume that the government has a responsibility to look at these and see , and pick and choose, as to what they want to do .

So at least I'm pleased to learn that after a year or two of inactivity that there might be , rather than the project rusting away or being taken down at some point , that there is going to be some moneys ex pended and , I assume , some federal funds tapped as well . MR. CHAIR MAN : The Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE: On this topic generally , Mr. Chairman , through you to the Minister , perhaps the Minister could advise us , in this area of maintenance, of what the department 's poli cy is, for exam ple , with that old Dauphin jail . Perhaps I could preface my question briefly .

I believe the administrative dec ision was made in the mid-Fifties that The Pas Correctional Institution had to be repla ced ; I know that the former Conservative government ana the New Democratic Party government for a number of years put band -aids on the old institution at The Pas; I know from current attention being paid perhaps the leaning of a ladder right-sid e-up or wrong-side-up isn't the answer to one of the problems that faces the Minister at Dauphin.

But neverth eless , if the Minister has some suggestion as to what his intentions are , what the government 's intentions are as far as the replacement of the institution at Dauphin , if he could advise us when the government plans to replace a facility like Daup hin ; because the maintenance costs of buildin gs such as the jail at Dauphin really don't make ec onomic sense in that we keep patching it up and it's jus t a patch -jo b, as it was at The Pas for yea rs . It finally reaches a point where we have no other alt ernative but to replace them . Perhaps , Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister would advise the House as to what his intentions are , that we could get some con currence by the Legislature that we would support bringing forward some of the construction programs which really haven 't got that much political pizza zz. I mentioned previously on this particular item it's difficult when a Minister is arguing with his colleagues to get roads for correctional institutions and some other public facilit ies . I know when we left the govern ment that we had plann ed , not immed iately but not in the too far di stant future , to replace the Dauphin institution.

So perhaps the Minister could advise us , in general ter ms without announcing an intended construction da te , what their policy is as far as this kind of band-aid maintenance which really , in my view, is a waste of public funds. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I would not mind at all responding to that question except that I'm always mindful of your gave l. We 'r e now cl early in the area of Acquisition and Construction of New Facilities .

I appreciate that it can be interwoven in maintenance costs but the kind of maintenance, or renovation costs that the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre is speaking about , is more appropriately dealt with in Acquisit ion/Construction of New or Existing Facilities . The maintenance that we are talking about here is a maintenance that we all identify in terms of the care and wear and tear of the normal maintenance of government buildings . But I seek your advi ce , Mr. Chairman , as I al ways do . MR. CHAIRMAN : We ll, it could be covered in the next item correc tly .

It could also be covered here , I would guess . It 's up to the committee and I'l l call on the Member for Winnipeg Centre. - 2364 - -

Monday , 14 Apri l, 1980 MR. BOYCE: To that point , this is exactly why I raise it because when the policy decision is made we 'r e going to replace that facility . Then the kind of maintenance that we 'r e talki ng about right at the present time , we ll , we won't fix that , we 'l l let it go . So it is kind of unicorn country as far as where it could properly be di scuss ed . But the kind of day-to-day maintenance which keeps a facil ity up-to-date usually slips and , as a res ult of it, it does shift it over to that New Construction. It really doesn 't make any diff erence to me , Mr.

Chairm an, where we would discuss it. but I think it's important that we get some indication from the Minister , from the governm ent just exactly how they ' re spending their money becau se , as I said earlier , it's pound foolish and penny-wise to continually spend token amounts in this kind of maintenance when they know full well that that darned thing should be repla ced . And when I say the "darned thing" , I'm speci fically thinking of the Dauphin ja il. MR. ENNS: We ll, Mr.

Chairm an, I' ve said on a number of occasions that the Department of Governme nt Servi ce s, as such , doesn 't initiate new cl ient demands for specific build ings. But let me hasten to assure honourable members that we do see it very much our responsibility to advise and reco mmend very strongly where we think renovation or maintenance costs are il l-advised or simply do n't make the kind of economic sense where the application is to an old and deteri orating exist ing buildin g. And the costs of renovations are such that the clie nt depart ment should well be advised to be looking at a new facili ty .

That clearly is very much the Department of Government Services and I welc ome support from all members of the House to assist the department in gaining that kind of support from government generally . The specif ic area that the honourable member has raised , the fac ilit y at Dauphin , fal ls within that category . We have looked at that facilit y now for two construction years going. Some initial renovations were met with opposition from staff and lo cal townspeople .

Present plans for the renovations of that facility are of that magnitude, or of that order , where I have asked the Minister of Corrections to review the proposals for that facilit y because I think it just fits the kind of situation that the Member for Winnipeg Centre describe s.

The depart ment is being asked to , in this case the Department of Correc tions along with the Attorney-Gener al 's depa rtment because the facility is associated with the court house at Dauphin , there could be a rationale that will be pursued if the reno vations could be looked upon as being helpf ul to the further use of that facili ty , perhaps not for its present use as a detention centre but as an addition to , or add itional space available for expanded courtroom facilit ies , in which case this fire-grading work would have to be done in any event .

But the member raises a good point and I can assure the honourable member that it 's just in the past little while that discussions have been entered into with the Department of Corrections as to their thinking and plannin g for that facilit y . MR. BOYCE: We ll perhaps , Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister , I imagine some of the data is extant . But perhaps the Minister could undertake , on behalf of the House , to prepare a paper which would set forth the figures which would give us some basis on which to form a decision.

If, for example , it costs $3 milli on to $5 million for a new institution, combined or separate institutions in Brand on, the capital costs and the amortization of that amount over the next 100 yea rs, because that 's what they plan these institutions for , as compared to an increasin� maintenance cost . Because I think that in this kind of expenditure of public funds that we shoul dn 't just rely on the government to demonstrate this to the public that the tough decisions have to be mad e.

The governm ent made it a little bit more dif ficult for themselves in mixing current and capital because really this kind of expenditure has to be amortized over the lif e of the institution . It 's very di fficult for the governm ent , I real ize , to come out and add $3 million to $5 million on their current expenditure for a capital expend iture , which is going to be amortized over 100 yea rs . But neverthe less , the cost of the capital has to be reflected in the figures which are taken into considerat ion. I could sum up , Mr.

Chairman , on this lin e of quest ioning in that I think it is important that the people of the province be given the information in a form that they can digest , that they can see the kind of increasin g maintenance cost which - 2365 -

Monday , 14 April, 1980 is associated with a public institution of the kind of correct ional facilities , that they can see in their best long-term interests , it is better to reach a point and say , whoa , this thing has to come down and a new one has to be built . Perhaps the Ministe r could have some of his staff address themselves to the problem in that manner , so that that information could be prepared for the public . MR. CHAIR MAN: 2. (b) (3)- -pa ss ; 2.(c) (l) - the Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Yes , Mr. Chairman.

The questi on I want to raise with the Minister is the entrance and egress from these ground s. I asked the Minister who was responsible for Memorial Boulevard , and I asked this question because I do see the Commissionaires that are duty in this building out there ticketing cars and what not . So I think we must have some jurisdicti on over that portion of the road . What I am primarily interested in is the problem that people have of crossing Broadway to enter these grounds or to leave these ground s.

I think the Minister must have run into that sometimes as well when he has been leavng this building , especially during rush hour , of trying to get across Broadway with your auto mobile . I' ll tell you what I did one day , I sent the passenger I had out to walk across the intersection and put his hand out . That was the only way I could get across the street . I realize the traffic flow there is something that is in conjunction with the city .

I raise this with the Minister , that I think it is of sufficient import ance , that we have a lot of people trying to get into the ground s, into this building , and if they are coming here when the traffic flow is fairly heavy east and west on Broadway , trying to get into the grounds , or get out of the grounds onto Memorial Boulevard is a very di fficult problem. I don 't know if the Minister would be the one to take this up , or who , but I really think there should be a set of traffic lights there oper ating especially during the rush hour period , in the morning.

It must be very di fficult for people who are try ing to get to work at this Legislature , who park on the grounds here . The same thing for people who are leaving here at 4:3 0, trying to cross that stre et. I know when the House used to adjo urn , usually on a Friday afternoon it was a devil of a job to get accross that street with your automobile . think that it would be that great a problem to set up . If people would Highway Traffic Act and leave the • • • MR. ENNS : You mean they do n't ? at 4: 30 , I do n't obey The MR.

JENKINS: They do n't even leave that portion open so that you can get across the stre et , because when the lights are red on Osborne Street, the traffic is not flowing anyway , the traffic builds up between Kennedy and Osborne Street and the thing is blocked solid ; you can 't get across there . Even if the lights weren 't operatin g all day , if they were operating in the morning and the afternoon durin g the rush hours, I think it would be of facil ity to the employees of this build ing and to people trying to get in and out here to do business in this building.

I wish the Minister would take this under advi sement and get in contact either with the City of Winnipeg , or maybe it's his own dep artment that may be respon sible . I don 't know who is responsible for Memorial Boulevard . I do see the Commissionaire s, who are on duty at this building , out there putting tickets on vehicles that are parked at the parking meters there .

I do n't know if they are city parkin g meters or if they are provinc ial parking mete rs . --( Interje ction)- The Minister indicates that they are his parking meters , and I hope he makes lots of money on them. --( Interje ction )- - In all seriousn ess , Mr. Chairma n, through you to the Minister , it is something that I wish the Minister would look into. I meant to raise this with him before . I don 't know if this is even the right item or whatnot to raise it , but I think that it is something that he should take under consider ation . I would like to know if the Minister is seriously considering it. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairm an, I can , of course , suggest to him that the problem would be solved if city members would use Transit. Us rural fel lows have no problem because we never leave this building until 8:3 0 or 9:0 0 and there is no traffic problem at that time of the hour . - 2366 -

Monday , 14 Ap ril , 1980 More seriou sly , a large part of the problem , which has been a growing one , will be solved if we start solving some of our parking problems in this general area , if we reduce the on-s ite or on-building grounds parking that brings on a lot of • • • and in fact use more of the building site parking for the casual visitor to the build ing and/or those citizens who have business with the build ing . If we had a parkin g facility for the bulk of the public servants who are parking on the build ing site , and/ or others , that would reduce the problem conside rably .

The department is currently undertaking an extensive parking study . I might indicate that in the person of the Deputy Minister , who I have acquired from the City of Winnipeg , his forte , among other things , als o lies in traffic engineer ing. He has a good background as a traffic engineer , and has taken this as a personal challenge to leave his mark on this general area during his tenureship as Deputy Minister of Government Servic es , to resolve it.

Serio usly , the parking and all the associated proble ms of getting entrance , egre ss and exit of this site is, as the member des cribes , less than desi rable . If we can shif t a substantial number of cars that try to get on this building and off this build ing at more or less the same time every morning and every evenin g , that would certainly lesse n the problem for the average citizen who has business and reason to call on us here at this build ing.

I can assure the honoura ble member that , particularly in view of the announced plans of the addit ional court facil ities that are coming on stream here , we are very much aware that a "R ussell Doern Memorial Parkade" or a "H arry Enns Parkade" will have to be considered in the very near future . MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information. In the meant ime , until he gets those - I do n't know whether it is going to be the "Doerns-Enn s" or "Enns-Doern" parkade built , I do n't expect the Deputy Minister to be out there as a traffic police man • • • MR.

ENNS: We would use his name but it is too long . MR. JENKI NS: I would seriously sugge st to the Minister that he suggest to the City of Winnipeg that they consider putting sort of a limited feature lighting system because those two pedestrian crosswalks there are not there for the purpose of stopping traffic , for automobile vehicles to go in and out of this buildin g.

I quite agree with the Minister that , sure , we should be usin g less automobil es, but neverthe le ss, there are people that have to do business on-site here and I think it has been suggested before that the Minister lif t the grounds all up and put a nice parkade underneath. Maybe that 's an idea , but that 's something for the future . But something for the present time , I think we should be looking at some traffic lights or some way of stopping that traffic out there so people can get in and out of the grounds he re .

That 's a pro ject for him and his Deputy Minister and , as I said before , I do n't expect to see the Deputy Minister out there with a stop and go sign , because I do n't think that 's the answer. The Minister , I' m sure , is aware because I have been with him at times when we were both trying to get across that street and it has been a heck of a job. The fact that the Minister is aware of it, I leave the ball in his court now to do somethin g about it. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I had a series of small questions here that I wanted to check with the Minister .

On the south lawn , there was a very beautiful and elaborate des ign connected with the Osborne Street Bridge and someone desi gned a side walk which went alon g Ass iniboine and then di ps down towards the bridge as if it is going under the bridge and then there is a cutback up . The point I am making there is that people will take the shortest di stance between two points and instead of followin g sort of a downward move in the sidewalk and then back up to the bridge , they tend to go straight .

I would simply point out to the Minister that I think he should look ino that and poss ibl y arrange for a sidewalk to be built in that particular place . It might just be a hundred feet long and I just mention that in passing . - 236 7 -

Monday, 14 Apri l, 1980 Only today I hea rd some complaints from some of the secret aries who work for our party about the eleva tors in this bui lding , namely that they feel that there should be two el evators ope rating at all times and there apparently are times when there is only one . Some people - I'm not talking now about vigorous young people who can cli mb as many sta irs as they want - but some people find it di fficult to get up two or three flights by foot . I would again ask the Minister if he would look into that . An area that I would like to make a suggestion to him on is the Riel Monument .

Now, that monument was built by our administration almost 10 years ago and it seems to be a favorite site of pranks ters , the latest being that somebody painted a pair of shorts on the founder of our province -- ( Interje ction)- - A prud e, perhaps . There also were other incident s. One of the most pathe tic, I thought , was at one time there was this great startling development that was seized on by the loca l photographe r. Somebody put a rubber tire on that statue .

Now, if that's news , then I obviously do n't know what news is, but it seems to me anybody could throw a rubber tire on any sculpture anywhere and to take a picture of that and put that in a da ily newspaper seems to me to be scraping the bottom of the barre l. MR. ENNS: That must have been a slow da y at the Legisla ture . MR. DOERN: It certa inly was .

I am simply saying that , given that there are endless incidents there and , I gue ss , smashed lights - there are light s, I think , on the interior of that monument - and so on , maybe the time has come to put some sort of a me tal grill work that would prevent people from enterin g that particula r interior of the sculpture . There is a visual block there because of the design , and I guess part of the time , it is sort of a hangout and a pla ce where people throw garbage and bottles and God knows what.

I simply ask the Minister whether he has had any rec ommend ations about protect ing that monument , first of all from pranks, and secondly from just general deterioration in terms of people throwing food and bottles and so on around there? I was just wondering if he is aware of that as a problem and if he has any solutions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE: The Member for Logan, Mr. Chairman , raised a question which prompts me to put on the record an incident which arose inter-sess ionally where some peo ple were asked to sign in when they came into the building .

I just want to put on the record my apprec iation for the prompt action of the Minister, be cause I know that he agrees with me that people who visit their MLAs shoul dn 't be required to sign in. I also would like to put on the recor d my apprec iation of the staff person who was involved because the individua l hand led an irate MLA, which is ·a very diffi cult task , with firmness and gre at tact.

I was a littl e bit miffed at the Minister because he pulled the rug from under my feet in that I thought I had a perfect case to raise a point of privile ge after his honour had vacated the Cha ir , but neverthe less, he stole my thunder and he acted promptly to rescind the direc t ive which gave ris e to the incident in the first pla ce and I just want to put on the record my appreciation of his prompt action. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN : Mr. Chairma n , I wanted to ask the Minister for some information in rega rd to art works. I assume this would fall under furnishings , etc?

There was some attempt made a few yea rs ago to encoura ge Manitoba artists and this was of course in two ways; one was to have 1 percent of the construction cost of a building allocated to artworks and these artworks were overwhelmingly purchased from Manitoba artists as opposed to Canadia n or other. So I wonder if he can pro vide us with any figures over the la st few yea rs , compared to the last deca de , on the amount of money that has been spent on the purchase of art and also the renta l of art, most of which tended to come from the Winnipeg Art Gallery . I would ask him for that? - 2368 -

Monday , 14 April , 1980 I would als o ask him a couple of questions in regard to this particular room which was at one point , it was alw ays I suppose for many yea rs , used to contain , well in fact, I guess as long as I can remembe r, to house the portraits of Premi er s, as opposed to the hal lway which more recently was allocated to house the portraits of Speakers and I ask him a couple of questi ons here ; one is that it's always struck me as peculiar that

whereas the portrait of the last Premier hangs behind us, and on his right the Premier before him, that Premier Roblin for some reason hasn 't been promoted to the other side of former Premier Schreyer and that has been true for at least the last year or more . I do n't know if it is because of his lef t-leaning Red Tory tendenc ies or what , but I would like to know why that isn't properly arranged .

Secondly I would like to know when the Minister is going to approve a new portrait artist to paint the picture of the present Premier and Speaker and the former Speaker , my collea gue from Kildon an, because alth ough we had his portrait ready to be slated our government was defeated and I am concerned that if the Minister doesn 't act soon his government will be defeated and then we will have to start all over again and arrange for his Leader and his Speaker to be painted out-of-offi ce.

Now the problem is this, a person is usually much happier and in a more smiling frame of mind and countenance when they are in office, they feel be tter. When you drag them back after their def eat they often do n't look the same or don 't feel the same about it.

So I just wondered if the Minister could inform us of what his plans are and if he has taken some steps or chosen an artist and then after that we can , of course , look at the artwork and decide whether we like it or not, as people have great fun in looking at paintings after they 'r e done or sculptures or the design of build ings , and saying how they do n't like it, how they do n't agree with it, how they don 't feel it 's suitable . That 's part of the fun of being in opposition is to be able to criticize the gover nment for it's aesthetic judgement .

So I wonder if the Minister has any figures on art purchase and rentals? If not I would like to obtain them , shor tly , and if he has any comments about his order to have the three gentlemen painted for posterity . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just let me reiterate the art-purchasing policy of this government has not changed since the time that the previous administration was in office . We still al locate 1 percent of construction costs of new build ings , or renovations to new buildin gs , substantial renovations like the cl ose to $1 million or $900 -some thousand for 373 Broadway • • MR.

DOERN: I'm sorry , could I hear that again ple ase. MR. ENNS: One percent of Broadway costs which is between $9 , OOO and $10 ,0 00 , will be al loca ted . The Art Committee which I believe is still much the same committee , at least headed by the same chairman at the University of Manitoba , is apprised of the requirements for that building ; the formula for rural build ings is also the same at one ha lf percent , half of 1 percent . Mr.

Chairman, I will undertake to provide the figures for the honourable mem ber , I do n't have them with me but possibly by evening or at latest tomorrow I will have some these figure s. Understan dably , the total amount unquestionably will be reduced in the sense that new build ings have not come onstream in this period of time , but the policy remains unchanged and I am sure the Art Committee is looking forward to participating with the furnishing of paintings for the new buildings that are now in the process of being readied and prepa red .

With respect to the select ion of an artist or artists for the paintings of former Speakers and Prem iers , it is a concern , the honourable member has reminded me of that from time-to-time , as have individual members concerned . I agree with the Honourable Member for Elmwood that time has a way of ticking away and that if possible , and certainly from a point of convenien ce, the matter of arranging sitting hours, etc., it is probably more convenient to have that done while the members are active and in the House .

I have asked and received from Miss Irene Levinson her rec ommend ations about a particular Toronto artist . I'v e also just recently asked that the committee I referred to a little while ago offer some further advice as to artist sele ction , but it would be my hope, and I have so indicated to the Premier and to the present Speaker and the former Speaker, that hopefully perhaps we can do something about it during this coming sessi on. - 23 69 -

Monday , 14 April, 198 0 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairm an, last night I watched a TV program on face-lifts and that 's another reason I want to make sure that this is done so somebody doesn 't feel that they have aged so much that they have to have a face-lift so they can be properly painted . MR. ENNS: A sympat hetic artist will usually do that for you . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, what is good? The good news is that the Minister says that the policy is unchanged - basically 1 percent for art - that 's the good news .

The bad news is there 's been very little new construction and so I hope that if and when there 's more construction that the Minister will fight for the maintenance of that policy . I am happy to hear that he 's doing that in the new Broadway buildi ng because the market for artists in Manitoba has shrunk somewhat in the last few years and I would like to see them have an opportunity of selling some of their artwork to the Provincial Gove rnment .

I want to make one sugge stion to him as well and that is that a few years ago , when the Royal Alec was torn down, there was a great emotional reac tion, not only about the hotel but about the Challon er , Murals which were part of the history of this province and that building in particular, and some $40, OOO were spent .

I remember the crisis - when I think of it I have to look at Keith Macmillan because this was one of his li ghtning night raids , sort of along CIA lines - where they were told to go in with a crew and they literally chipped these huge murals off the walls taking half an inch of plaster with them . I do n't know how they did it. They were ordered by a very strong minister of the day , I can 't remember his name , some ten years ago to get in there and get those murals out ; and they di d .

Then there was a very long process of restoration and the murals were finally restored and they were exhibited a few times in Manitoba. We once took them out to Brandon and so on but essentially they are rolled and stored somewhere in a Government Services warehou se .

I want to say to the Minister something that I had in mind and maybe he can come up with a better idea ; one of the thoughts that I had was when there was a new court builting constructed or planned that one of the rooms, either in the entranceway or judg es ' quarters or courtroom , I don 't know what ; but given that a court build ing tends to be with higher ceilin gs , I don 't know what this one will look like , I guess it won't look exactly like they used to in the old da ys, maybe it will have 9 foot cei lings or 8 foot cei lings but there must be some opportunity in that building for something with a larger scale and I think that the Minister of Government Services should think in terms of using the Challoner Murals , he 's the custodian of those murals.

It 's really not as productive to have them stored and rolled and taken out once every few year s, dusted off and shown to peop le . Ideally they should be placed in some buildi ng, preferably a public build ing where people can see them because they are not only interesting in terms of art , and they can be judged in various ways as to their artistic merit , but in terms of histo ry they do show some early history and they are als o part of the art history of this province.

So I would ask the Minister to keep that in mind when he 's making dec isions and possibly in ject that into the program for the new court building . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kil donan. MR. FOX: Mr. Chairman , in view of the refurbishing and changing around of many of the area under government occupancy , can the Minister indicate . what is being done in respect to some of this used furniture? I noted that there was quite a bit of it in storage in a number of pla ces. Is there some of it being reclaimed? Is it being sold? What process is being utilized?

Can the Minister give us some idea of the moneys involved in the restorat ion and the sale of the furniture and so on. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the department has a general poli cy , a formula by which it makes an assess me nt. If, in the opinion of our workshop , the costs of refurbi shing or restoring furniture to a good standard is above 60 percent of the replacement cost then it is offered up for disposal as a Crown Ass et ; if it 's below that then the restorat ion takes pla ce. There 's always every effort made to use the furniture that accumulates over a period of time , how ever , the honourable - 23 70 -

Monday , 14 Apri l, 198 0 member will also understand that particularly on the occasion when new buildin gs , new construction is entered into it, it's dif ficult in some instances then to fur nish it with dated or outmoded types of furniture , even though to you and I that may not be the case . In addition the department is responsive to a substantial number of appeals that we get from time-to-t ime of charitable groups or other organizations that from time-to-ti me ask for some particular piece of furnishing .

If we are satis fied that it's that kind of an organization the department has the means and does provide from time-to-time furnishings to what we would call worthy agenc ies at no cost ; and in additi on, of course , the furnishings are from time to time , put up or offered .for sale in the normal way that the department disposes of Crown ass ets . MR. FOX: Is that by tender? MR. ENNS: That is by tender , yes . MR. FOX : Mr. Chairman, does that mean that ordinary individuals would nave to buy job lot s, they coul dn 't buy individual piec es? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised that in most instances it's auctioned and the quantity , I'm sure , can be arranged at . I think if an individual citizen expressed a particular interest for a piece of furnishing that by so indicating it to the dep artment the op port unity would be there to do so . For instance , I can indicate to you that in 1979 -80 a total of $320 , OOO worth of various government assets . This is far and above the furnishings , of course .

It includes electic cars ; it includes vehicles from the Central Vehicle Garage ; it includes surplus construction material sheet pil ing; add ition surplus material that the Department of Highways had , but also included is furniture . We have , for instance , itemized under furniture some $7 , 300 worth of used furniture that was disposed of by auc tion in the year just passed . MR. FOX : I'l l get to a few more questions after 4:3 0. It 's 4:3 0. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is 4: 30 , and I •m leaving the Chair for Private Members ' Hour . We will return at 8 o' clock. SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN , Mr.

Abe Kovnats (Radisso n) : This Committee will come to order . I would direct the honourable membe rs' attention to Page 81 of the Main Estimates , Department of Natural Resources , Resolution No. 108 , clause 9. Wild life , (

a) Administration, (1 ) Salaries--p ass. The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I wanted to review again for a few moments the Minister 's view on the question of the treatment of polar bears in a recent exper iment. Mr. Chairman, no sooner had we debated the issue in the Chamber when there was a statement that appeared in the paper on Saturday by the doctor from Norway who de fended his exper iment and seemed to think that everything was okay .

What bothered me when we were talking about this on Friday was the fact that the Min ister appears to take the position that he shows no possible uneasiness about approving the experiment and seems to suggest that he would do it again. --( Inte rje ction)-- Mr. Chairman, my friend for Minnedosa obviously favours what went on and woul d, of course , support any continued experiments in that regard . But I say to the Minister that I believe that he made a mistake in the app roval of that particular experiment and was extremely unwise in doing so .

He seemed to show some sense of balance when he held the experiment , but he seems now to show no regret and to be quite set in the manner of possibly approving it again. Mr. Chairman, what bothers me is that the Minister feels that as long as a number of scientific groups ask for an experiment , he feels that in itself is sufficient justif ication and that 's where I beg to differ. He has a mand ate from the people to protect wild lif e , and I say to him that if a number of scientists - 2371 -

Monday, 14 April , 198 0 come up with an experi ment that will damage wildlif e or hurt wildlife or be unpro duc tive in the sense that those experiments are unnecessary - and as some people have argued are inhumane - then I say that he has a right and the responsibility to say no . I don 't care how many scientific organizations ask approval for an experiment he should not simply be obl igated to app rove anything that is asked , in the name of science, because I think some very sinister things have been done in the course of hi story , in the name of scien ce.

I think that certain things have taken place • • • MR. CHAIRMAN: point of order . Order please . The Honourable Member for Minnedosa on a MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa ): Yes , Mr. Chairman. My point of order is , I just wonder when we start to get into rep etition and when we consider it usef ul information being sought from the Minister . We 'v e been through the polar bear episode I think four or five times alr eady . MR.

CHAIRMAN: To the honourable memb er , I think that this was new informa tion on the debate from last week and I was al lowing it in hope that there would be some addit ional debate consid ering that there was some reporting in the news papers on the weeke nd ; I would not be about to rule the honourable member out of order at this point . The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairm an, I said to the Minister and I say to him again, that the mere fact that a number of scientific organizations ask him to approve an experiment should not alone require him to app rove that experime nt.

He has to weigh what is being asked and if they ask him whether they could set a germ or use some germ warfare on the animals of Manitoba, I wonder whether he would just auto matically approve it. I as sume what he would do is he would weigh what is being requested against the possible outcome and then make a decision. I say to him, on the other side of the coin, on the other side of the deb ate , is the fact that a number of prominent sc ientists , if he wants to debate sc ientists, have said that the experiments were unnecessary ; and the most prominent of these is Dr .

Clive Roots, who is the head of the Assiniboine Park Zo o , who surely in his field must be as imminent as anybody on the other side . So , if you just want to talk scien tists, there are scientists on both sides of this issue and I think the Minister has to weigh that . I hope that my col league for Churchill enters into the debate because he received a very interesti ng le tter from a couple of men of science in regard to this issue and they were very ups et at the response of the Manitoba Government . So I say , Mr.

Chairm an, that I' m di sappointed that the Minister feels that this experiment was okay , in spite of the fact that it was a dis mal failure , in spite of the fact that the bears who were supposed to survive died , two out of three - one may or may not survive . He seems to feel that he did the right thing and he 'd do it again. I find that surprisi ng, first of all , because I did n't anticipate that respo nse. I expected him to say that never again would he approve a similar experiment , but he di d n't say th at.

I ask him, in particu lar , if he can tell us what benefit there was ; what these men knew now; what practical advantage flowed from this experiment . What is the conclusion? Is the conclusion that whenever there 's an oil spi ll there 's going to be a score of workers go into the area, capture these animals and transport them from the northern regions? Is that what 's going to happen? Because if that 's what 's going to hap pen , that could have been done without the experime nt.

I assu me that the aim , in terms of the preser vation of wildlife , would be to get the animals away from the oil spill , and I don 't think we learned anything from this experiment in that regard . Mr. Chairman, I simply say this, that these animals were sacrificed on the alter of sc ience and I think that the Minister should not have revised his origi nal concern . He apparently had a concern a year ago . He now shows that he has gone from a concern to no concern and I have to tell him that I' m dis appointed in his present position. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to hearin g what the Minister has to say .

I cannot stay for all of it because I have to go to the Government - 2372 -

Monday , 14 April , 198 0 Services debate but my colle ague for Rupertsland , I think, may also wish to com ment on this particular item. HON . BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Kill arney ): Mr. Chairman, I just would like to put a few remarks on the record in response to the remarks from the Honourable Member for Elmwood . He says that I, as Minister, have shown no regret over this incident . Mr. Chairman, I wish to register my disa greement with that perception that the honourable me

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-36a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 36a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	c10450b7cc09c3903a9e982342457b6263d745fe

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