Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 25, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 53

April 25, 1974 Tape 1293 (Afternoon) PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. l.fR • SPFAKFR : Order, please! It iR a nlP.ARure for me to welcome to the r,alleries today from the Boys' Training Home in Whitbourne, nine boys from Grades VI to IX, with their teacher11 Mr. Nichol and Mr. J.egge. I sincerely "'elcome you here on hel1alf of each and every one of the members• MINISTF.RIAI. STATEMENTS HON. J. r.. C~OSBIF. (MINISTF.F OF FINANCF.): Mr.

Chairman, I think something has been said about this before but just to make sure it is clear: Due to the postal strike emergency arrangements have been made to distribute the social assistance pensions and salary cheques throu~hout the province. The social assistance cheques, I think the minister said yester­ day will be at 9:00 A.M. on Tuesday, April 30,at the welfare offices, St. John's, ~ount Pearl, Harvey Road, Grand Falls, Gander. Le"risoorte, Botwood1 Stephenville, Corner Brook, Labrador City and Happy Valley.

Recipients have to show proi,er identification in order to pick up their cheques, lf not able to ' oick them up in person,. they can authorize in writing another person to do so, but that person must show identification. Social assistance cheques for all other locations will have to go by regular mail servi.ce. Provincial government pension cheques can be picked uo at 9:00 A,M. Monday, April 29, at St.

John's and Mount Pearl,at the Central Cabhier's Office here in Confederation Building, at Grand Falls th~ough the mail and messenger service in the qoyernment Building, in Clarenville at the Retail Sales Tax Office, Gander at the Welfare Office, Lewisnorte at the Welfar~ Office, ~otwood at the Welfare Office, Deer Lake at th~ Welfare Office, Steohenville at the Welfare Office, Corner Brook at the Sir Richard ~quires Building, Labrador City at the Retail Sales Tax Office and the Government Building, Happy Valley at the Welfare Office, Pensioners have to show proper identification to pick up their cheques, lf they cannot pick them up in person, they can authorize another person in writing but he must identify himself.

Pension cheques for all 4178

Ar,ril 25, 1974 Tape 12q3 (Afternoon) PK - 2 other locations will go out by regular mail service. If the strike of postal emoloyees is ended before tomorrow, it is unlikely I guess, the cheques will be delivered by regular mail service. l.fl>. SPFAl~fll: The Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agr:f.culture. HO~. E. 1-IAY~'AP.n (l~INI~TF.R np FORF.STRY ANn AGRIC.!ILTIJ!?F.): l-{r, Speaker, during the past few weeks and especially the last cot~,Ple of days there has been cons:fderahle comment in the media regarding the availability of crown land for summer cottar,e development.

I would like to try and clarify the r,resent situation.

Over the past ~ew years summer cottar,e development has taken place throughout the -province without the benefit of -oroper olanning, develoowent and,manap.eme~~- TraditionallY, applications for crown land have been considered on an individual basis without giving much thought to the oot!mum use of land available, the maximum number of cottages that a pond or area can sustain, while still maintaining an acc·eptable level of environmental quality, without reserving adeouate space for publ:f.c use, conflicts with other uses or whether or not the area was physically suitable for cottage develooment.

Uncontrolled development of that type cannot go on for ever and already the results of such action are being seen in several areas of the province. A recent publication on: Shoreline Recreation makes the statement. "We never know what we have until through our own ignorance it is lost". We in Newfoundland could very possibly approach just such a situation if we continued to abuse our shorelands. Deer Park, Salmonier, is a popular summer cabin area for residents of St. John's. Most of the ponds in that area that are access:l .ble by road have already been developed beyond their capacity.

Cottages have been constructed along the Salmonier Line to the point where direct access to the highway has becoffle a hazard to traffic. As a result, Development Control, Provincial Planning and Highways,have recom111ended that no further a'f)plications be apnroved that would require direct access to the Salmonier Line. 4179

April 25, 1974 Tape 1293 (Afternoon) PK - 3 As a result of thcRe recommendations, the Cr<>'-m J,ands COllll!littec has been forced to study very carefully each application for summer cottage development on the Salmonier Line. For the Committee to do other­ wise would be an irresponsible act. Bonne Bay,Big Pond is a ·popular area for residents on the West Coast. To date the cottage development on Bonne Bay~ Bir, ~ond,has been concentrated primarily to two relatively small areas of the pond.

However, because of the high density of cottages in these areas, nollution is already a problem in the water immediately adjacent to these developments. Just how serious this, is we will try to determine by means of an i environmen~al impact ~tudy. M:any of the ponds, ~n the :l.mmediate vicinity of St. John's have been ringed with summer cottages to the point where public access to ~ the w~ters is virtually non-existent. In addition, I suggest that the waters of some of these ponds may already be contaminated with ·sewage and garbage.

The adverse affects on the environment resulting from uncontrolled su1T1111er cottage development are well documented in many parts of Canada and the United States. The people of Newfoundland have long held the opinion that there is an unlimited supply of land suitable for summ.er cottage development throughout the province but suddenly, the residents of St. John's and the surrounding areas are finding it increasingly difficult to find a suitable cottage lot within a reasonable driving distance.

The problem has resulted not so much from lack of land but rather from an inefficient use of the land over the past number of years. For example, it has been recognized that ribbon develo'1)11M!nt, whether it be for SUIIUl\er cottages or residents, provides the most inefficient use of the land. Yet this is the only type of cottage development found in this province, As a result of the foregoing the Crown Lands Division is now takinP, a close look at those areas around the province where there is a high demand for summer cottage develofllllent. With the use of skilled technicians, aerial photography, photo

interpretation techniques and Rvailable information, 4180

April 25, 1974 Tape 1293 (Afternoon) PK-4 suitahle areas for cottar,e develonment are now beinp, identified. Once identified, a detailed '!)lan is beinp. prenared showinp, road and lot locations. These nlans will take into account thP. maxfmum number of cottares that the area can sustain, the ootimum use of the land suitable for deve]onment, the need to maintain~e aesthetic oualities of the area, the need to nrovide public access for camning, picn~cking, boating, etc., olus a host of other cons:f_derations.

The idea] situat:f .on would be to place a moratorfum on all sutTIIller cottage deve]onment within the province and accept applicat:lons on·ly for those areas for wh:f_ch detailed plans have been prepared. Unfortunately, that is impract:1 .cal (1) because of the limited staff that :Is available ., at this time, and (2) 'hecause of the high demanrl for cottage leases that we are now encountering. However, in those areas where detnU.ed nlans are bein~ p.repared or will be preoared in the 'immediate future, applications are being accepted but withheld pending the conroletion and anproval of a detailed plan.

The plans are being prepared as sneedily as possible. Deer Park and Bonne Bay Big Pond are t~o such areas. No new apolications have heen ap~roved in these areas for approximately the past six months. Some annlications have been refused in these areas only because it was obvious that the site was unsuitable. Some applications are refused in all areas. However, it must be rel'tembered that on1::e an application has been apnroved for survey, the appl:lcant has one year in which to have the survey completed and three years in which to construct a cottap:e once a lease has been issued.

Therefore, while no appl_ications have heen aptiroved in the past six months in the J)eer Park area, it is still noss:f.hle for co.ttages to be huilt UT> over~ .the next two to three years on lots that were le11sed prior to six months ago. This may result in some people p:ettinr, the idea that their npT>lication is being held'lhile others are beinp: aonroved. This is not the case. All annlications received for areas which have been designated as overdeveloped will he held until proper nlans have been completed.

In the mr.antime,anolications for areas which are not considered to be over~ developed or for which detailed plans are not immP.diately prooosed will continue to be processed in the usual manner. 4181

, ... " April 25, 1974 Tape 1293 (Afternoon) PK - 5 There have been co111111ents made that land is being held for certain sp~cific persons or that one person may be refused a permit while a later applicant is approved. I contend that these comments are without founrlntion, Tf any perRonsfeel that such n situat1on occurs, I renuest that they make their char'ges to me :In writing p,iving all the particulars.

If any charge of this nature be made, a thorough investigation will be made and if proven appropriate act:1.on will be taken to see that it does not happen again and as well that the present situation is corrected. The procedures for dealing with .. cjown iands-apnlicationB are being revised. Unf~rtunate~y, this is the first attempt_~~ - streamlining the procedures_ in the past thirty to forty years. I am confident that by the end of 1974· most of, ~he problems now encountered in acquiring crown lands will be eliminated. I will be making further statements in this regard thr~ughout the coming weeks. MR. S.A.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my colleague, ·the ~ember for Bonavista North, who is the shadow member of the opposition cabinet, shadowing the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Sir, . ~ - .. ~· 4182

April 25, 19 71, Tape 1294 IB-1 I would like to Si\Y a few words, make a few comments on the minister's statement, Sir. First of all, Hr. Speaker, I think probably the minister is correct \.'hen he says that there is need to plan the development of the areas around some of the lakes and ponds, csped .ally the ones near St. John's, Sir. I agree that there is an ncc~ssity for a control in some of these areas. In some respects, f-'r.

Speaker, I was disappointed with the minister's statement because the minister did not outline any recourse of appeal f9r any applicant who may feel that he has a grievqncc against the minister's department. The minister said that one has to appeal to the minister,and more or less challenge!. Individuals who felt disgruntled or felt that they were unjustifiably dealt with, -(hey had to appeal to the good · graces of the minister. In my opinion, Sir, that is not good enough.

I was rather disappointed that the minister did not outline in his ministerial s tatcmen t a procedure whereby people whose ~pplii;~i -tons · were rejected or deferred for some reason or another would have recourse to appeal. Because, Mr. Speaker, there is a gentleman sitting in the galleries today, Sir, who docs have a grievance against the minister's department. He made five applications for a piece of land to build a summer cottage on in the Deer Park.

In each instance, the application was turned down and approval was given to another applicant,which shows that there was favoritism, Sir, in the minister 1 s department. I hope that this person who is listening to me will make his grievance known to the minister and that the minister will thoroughly investigate the case and sec that justice is done in this particular instance. This battl _c has been going on with the minister's department not only since the minister took over but - HON. W.W. MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The purpose of ministers statements and allowing comments on them is for a person to ask questions and make remarks or explanations but not to enter into debate, neilhet '. necessarily _to pl,4y to _th~ grandstand, be it one person in the House or all of the people in the 4183

April 25, 1974 . Tape 1294 IB-2 House. The honourable member is entering into particular observations about a particular case, debating the whole policy of the department, While Your Honour has given latitude in times past with respect to commenting on ministers' statements, it surely does not extend to the use which the honourable member for Bell I~lnnd is putting it. MR, SPEAKER: I think that the point made by the honourable go~ernm1:nt House Leader is well taken. The honourable member for Bell Island was straying somewhat from the content, I think, of the statement made by th~ ministe~.

Perhaps he could be more relevant to that particular st~tement. MR. NEARY: I think I have inade my point, Sir. It is becoming more obvious i'h this House every day, Sir, that that particular minister who just raised a point of order does not want anything brought out on the floor of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: He want~ to try to silence the opposition, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: This is the only way we can get information out, Hr. Speaker.

Sir, I do hope that the minister's statement is just not~ move on the part of the minister or his depa~tment to establish more bureaucratic red tape, Sir. I hope that epplications will be processed without undue delay and that the officials that the minister.w~ll delegate this authority to will be Newfoundlanders and not foreigners who have to be shown how to get down to the Deer Park. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island is certainly out of order now in his comments with regards to the statement made by the minister. I am sure he is well aware of that. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what other way I could put it because the minister said he was going to set up a procedure - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 4184

April. 25, 1974 . 'rape 1294 IB-3 MR. NEARY: Whnt about "Mr. Ilcnn-6rain"? Is he an Newfoundlander? "Bird-Brain" or whatever you call himl AN IIONOIJnABLE NEMIJER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: He 1.s a Newfoundlander, ·_· Oh, I am r,lad to hear it. He is not from Ming's Bight,! am sure of that. HON. J. C, CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Inaudible, MR. :~EARY: Is that so? Mr.

Speaker, I hope this is not a move on the part of the minister to set up a bureaucracy down in his department to make it virtually impossible for people to get applications approved, Neverthel';,Ss, Sir, in conclusion I would have to admit . that I - MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Speaker, I rise on a point of outrage, not a point of o_rder, a point of outrage. Tiiis outrageous - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is no such thing as a point of.outrage in this honourable House. MR. CROSBIE: Well, a point of order then, MR. NEARY: Go back to Grand Falls and carry on the talk show. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR.

NEARY: Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Sit down, I have the floor. Sit .down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: Both honourable gentlemen I think should take ~h~ir seats. This is developing into a debat~. As it is a ministerial statement, I suggest that we shouid get on with the petitions. NOTICE OF MOTION:. HON. L.D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Vest Certain Minerals, In Her Majesty." (Gap in master tape) so that we do not have the mining fr:-aternity all upset or excited, 4185

April 25, 1974 Tape 1294 IB-4 This is to clear up some problems that exist in the province because of legal technicalities arising from squatters rights or some diffi~ulty with title to minerals under areas that have been occupied adversely by individuals for a period of time. ls is to clear up that matter. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will, on fomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Confirm The Setting Up And Closing ~ut Of The Children's Trust Account And Matters Relating To The Operation Of The Account," and a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Collective Bargaining) Act, 1973," HON. T.A. -HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on'tomorro~ ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Quieting Of Titles Act." AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: That is right. Questions for which notice has been given: Oral Questions: MR, NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, t would like to direct a very serious question to the Minister of Justice. Would the minister inform the House if to his knowledge the Newfoundland 4180

April 25, 1974 Tape no. 1295 · Pq.ge 1 - MW Teiephone Company made application to the Public Utilities Commission before they announced an increase in 'rates in connection with calling f o r i ~, f o n ::.:itinn on t e lep :1one nu1,1hcrs. MR. HICKHAN: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, but I will certainly undertake to find out. I would assume they did but I will find out anyway. · MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister also ascertain whether in fact they are required to? I believe th/;!Y are. They have announced an extra quarter, information charge or something.

I do not think they have any right to do it without going to the board. ,, MR. HICKl!AN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct another question to my old kissing cousin down here, the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister inform the House if his department has had any representation from the Community of Markland to have the road graded down there. Apparently the road is in a terrible state of disrepair; to have it graded and reconstructed, upgraded? JlON. T. V.

HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. -Speaker, the particular area that the honourable gentleman refers to does not come to mind. Let me just say that we have .had representation from almost· every area of the province with regard to road conditions, It is sufficient for me to say that the conditions of the road at the present time are due to the unusual winter we have had. There is not a thing that my department can do if it had twice the equipment. It is just a very a very unusual situation where there was a lot of frost and a lot of moisture during the past number of months.

Our roads took a great beating and we are finding the results right now. Mr, Speaker, the only thing I can say further is that my staff are doing everything they can to correct the situation by grading and by doing whatever is necessary. I am ·afraid that the travelling public will Just have to bear with us. I realize it is a matter beyon~ our control. We can only do what we can. 4187

April 25, 1974 Tape no. 1295 Page 2 ' . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable minister should consult with hia colleague there in the seat beside him. Markland is in his colleague's district ·. Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Justice could inform the House what steps the government have taken to see if it is possible to roll back gasoline and heating oil prices in this province as the Province of Nova Scotia has done7 HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY:, MR. HICKMAN: ; ,, He is thunderstruck. .

No, rio, ' · That question was answered by the Hon, Minister of Mines.-and Energy a couple of weeks ago. It is under consideration, I may be misinterpreting what the honourable minister said but I believe he did say that he was acquiring information from Nova Scotia to see the effectiveness of their procedures. Perhaps tne honourable gentleman can answer that question, HON, L, BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr.

Speaker, we made a decision and we announced at that time (I think it was in December) that we_ felt as a matter of policy the need to bring in regulations on petroleum prices because of the problems that were then occurring in Newfoundland and other places in Canada and the world, At that time I requested officials to investigate the situation in Nova Scotia, the legislation that they have had in force for several years and also new legislation : which Nova Scotia is just implementing at the present tiae.

There has been some delay caused by the fact that the officials who were involved in the investigation. have also been ... involved in the enormous amount of work to be done in connection with the CFLCo take over.and this has delayed matters somewhat, It is our intention to still proceed with determining whether there will be any advantage to the province. It is not obvious - just to say that one is going to regulate 4188

April 25, 1974 Tape no, 1295 Page 3 prices does not mean that there will automatically be an advantage to the consumer in the province, We have to determine whether there will be an advantage to the consumer in the province or whether we will just be setting up another bureaucracy involved in the collection and distribution of data which would mean cost to the taxpayer~ If there is BOing to be this cost, we want to make certain that there is going to be an advantage to the consumer resulting from the cost, That is why, Hr, Speaker, we are looking at this very carefully and we are going to take our tim~ and we are not going to be rushed into making a decision ,on this until we know that it i .. going to be in the best interests of th~ Newfoundland consumer.regardless of what the Hon, Member for Bell Island might say or do, MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question: Could the minister then give . us some sort of a time limit? In what time period will this be done~ Will it'.·be six months. a year or will it be after the next election? When will it be done? They are at it now six months, HR. BARRY: Mr, Speaker. I do not know whether the honourable gentleman has problems hearing or if it is just his problem of understanding. It may never be done unless it is determined that it would be in the beat interests of the Newfoundiand consumer to do it, It may never be done. Mr. Speaker.

I would anticipate in the normal course of events that a decision would be made within a matter of a couple of months as to whether or not there will be any advantage to the Newfoundland people if we take this course of action, MR. NEARY: This crowd are always so vague and general in their answers, Sir, I was just merely trying to pin the minister down to a time period.

Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Provincial Affairs - if his department has taken any steps to set up provincial inspectors to go around the province checking on the price of food similar to the· inspectors that they appointed recently in the Province of Ontario? 4189

April 25, 1974 Tape no. 1295 Page _ 4 HON, G. DAWE (Minister of Provincial Affairs): No, MR, NEARY: That is all I have, Sir. HR, SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister o! Health. Would the minister indicate to the House whether · he has received any complaints with reference to the irregularity of the visits of the doctor to Francois, For clarification I should point out that a

schedule was set up last fall whereby the doctor from Burgeo would visit Francois and then two weeks later the doctor ftom Harbour Breton,and so alternate'throughout the winter, Now I am aware,as is the min1°ster I am sure, that the doctor in Harbour Breton .,, is presently on vacation but that before leaving he made an arrangement, approved by the Health Department, for the doctor at Burgeo to visit every two weeks in his absence, This has not been done. Indeed it has / been pretty irregular all winter. Taking into account weather, . emergencies and so on, it still has been pretty irregular.

I wonder if the minister has received any complaints on this account? HON. DR. ROWE (Minister of Health): I got them recently on the occasion of irregular visits of that nature. I can only say that the

schedule is still in existence for each of the doctors to go at the specific times. The only complication has been the winter weather. when it is difficult for planes to get in. We have no idea of cancelling the schedule. The sehedule is to continue according to and 11ubject to weather. There is no other.reason. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary question: The

schedule has been pretty irregular and for reasons other than weather, I can document that for the mibister. More importantly, I wonder if the minister would undertake to investigate the matter for me. for the people of E.rancois? DR. ROWE: I certainly will be happy to provide the member with the

schedule of dates as to when the doctQrs have been there and when we expect them to go there again. 4190

April 25, 1974 Tape no. 1295 Page 5 HR. SIMMONS: I have the schedule, Mr. Speaker. That is not the problem. What I am wonder is if the minister would undertake to investigate the matter, to see if the irregularity of the visit is justified on account of weather and emergencies that the doctor may be experiencing in his own bailiwick in Burgeo, I am sure he does have these, O~tsidP. of that, · the people of Francois and I are maintaining that the

schedule has been unduly irreguiar and I wonder if the minister would investigate it with a view to getting it a little more regular. DR. ROWE: I will obtain a report from the appropriate officials, Mr, Speaker, and see ~hat the honourable member is so informed, MR, GILLETT: ,I am wondering if the Minister of Tourism has the answer for my question of yesterday, HON. T. DOYLE (Minister of Tourism): No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. It is being typed and I will have it later on this afternoon. HR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism and this may carry over into the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Have the number of applications made in Labrador for the development of tourist lodges - I have been informed by the Crown Lands Division that they are not granting land for this development because of the Wildlife · DivisiQn of the Department of Tourism who are deyeloping a policy on how this particular part of Tourism should be set up. I was wondering if the 4191

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1296 NM - 1 minister could inform the House if his department has a policy deve!loped and when will those people be JtTanted land by the Crown Lands Mvision for fiRhinr, lod'1:es. and tourist lodges? ~~.:.,_Do~· ~r. Speaker, I can partially answer that question. The reason why the oolicy has not been announced as yet is that we were awaiting ~he R~port of the Royal Commission on Labrador which we felt would be gettinp, involved in everything.

That, as the honourable centlcman knows, has been received and is beinz pricised and I . would expect within a week or so that as~ result. of recommendations in it, plus some of the pleadings of our own department,we will . ,, be in a posi~ion to make a definite policy which will free up or otherwise. At least people will know one way or the other what the polky will be in future. So I would think therefore that by the middle of May the answer should be known to the question _.

But the reason it is being held up is simply that we did not want to make one poiicy today and find that good recommendations that may come out of the Royal Commission on Labrador would make. us change again tomorrow sort of a thing, That is the only reason it is being held up. MR. WOODWARD: Supplementary, Mr, Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the minister that there are a number of people who · would like to order materials to get the construction going this yur and I think it is an urgent matter. The timing ts very important so . I think maybe May would be a little bit too late.

I was wondering if the minister would see fit to get it through as soon as he possibly can, maybe in the next couple of weeks. MR. DOYLE: Yes, I certainly will, Hr. Speaker, bearing in mind that May is only next week. The point is well taken. MR.. NEARY: I wonder if the Minister of Health, Sir, could tell us if the minister has reque ted hospital boards, other than the board at the Waterford Hospital, to pay their employess for the two days that they lost ' durinr, the recent snowtonn when a state of emergency was declared by the Mayor here in the City ·. 4192

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1296 NM - 2 MR. MOORES: To answer that question,the honourable gentleman from Bell Island knows the workers at Waterford Hosptial have . returned to work. The undertaking by the hospitals in the city as we understand it and they have told us is. that exactly the same conditions that applied to the g~vemment h~spitAlS , will bP. applied to the independently operated hospitals in the city and elsewhere, ~-ffi.. ~PEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR.

Sl~ONS: Question for the Minister of Finance in reference to the statement he 111ade earlier in the sitting this afternoon, Would he clatify the matter of the social assistance cheques which are going to be distributed as he said throur,h the _regular mail, no• I understand that the department will make arrangements to deliver to the post offices in the areas concerned or wiii_ depos·it them at the St. John's Post Office? MR.

CROSBIE: Social assistance cheques are going to be placed in the welfare offices in the places that I mentioned,and that the cheques for other locations will be delivered by the regular mail service. MR. S 1?-r-toNS : If it.be deposited in St. John's,it means that it gets caur,ht up in the strike, lf it_ b_e deposited in for example St. Alban's,it y.ets delivered.

I wonder would the minister, if he should not have the answer now, would he undertake to determine whether the cheques that are to be distributed through the regular mails are to be deposited in the post offices in the local areas concerned, ls that the case? ~- CROSOIE: That is the case, yes. ~-• NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, now that we have got the social assistance recipients straightened out,I wonder if we can get the other people straightened out who want to collect their money from the governaent, Would the minister tell us if any alternative arrangement has been made for those people, like contractors and business people who supply ~overnment institutions and so forth, Haa there been an alternative worked out whereby they can get their cheques,p,et payment 4193

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1296 N~ - 3 for services rendered while the·e.mergency is on durin~ the hospital di11pute? Can they for instance come to Confederation Building and pick ur their cheques? What arranrements has the min.ister made? ~. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have not made any particular arrangements. I assume that any contractor or any person like that who is owed money will call the department involved and arrange to have the cheque picked up. We are not coneerned with the business conununity in this regard. We know that they can very well have their cheques picked up.

We are concerned about social assistance recipients ,, and old age pensioners. The honourable gentleman may be very concerned apout the business community and that may be very sensitive to him but our concern is with the social assistance / recipients and pensioners and people who really need the ch~ques.

MR.1 NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I am not concerned about the rent for the Viking Building or Newfoundland Engineering progress payments, what I am interested in, Sir, is the small businessman who is only carrying his stock from month to month and· in a lot of cases they are supplying hospitals in the rural areas and so forth. The small businessman I am concerned about. Would the minister indicate if these people can come in and pick up their cheques or will they be put in the mail? If they are put in the mail they will just be there in the _mail maybe for weeks before they are delivered. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, you know the government is in no better position than any other business that is operating today under the disabilities imposed by the postal strike. Unfortunately I have not heard the honourable gentleman opposite asking many questions about the postal strike or urging the federal government to see that it is settled or saying anything in connection with that strike, Anyone who has a cheque that they are owed or so on can make arrangements to have it picked up here.

We can only look after the people that I have already mentioned and I would therefore urge the member for Bell Island who seems to have tremendous 4194

April 25, lll74 Tape No. 1296 . NM - 4 influence with Ottawa to cet on to the Prime Minister and the ~Unister of Manpower and the Presidt!nt of the Trensury Board, Mr. Drury, and urge them to settle up this postal strike. ~. !11\RSIIALL: Before we get ~n to Orders of the Day I might j~st make this motion now so. that we will not have to bring the committee back, I move the House when it rises today, which will be at eleven o'clock this evcnin~, stand adjourned until 10:00 A.X. tomorrow morning. MR.

SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the llouse when it adjourns will adj<;>yrn until 10:00 A.M. tomorrow morning, carried. MR. ROBERTS: Before we move into committee I wonder if the House Leader would consider, and assuminr, we could r,et agreement on all si~es, ~iving Bill no. 29 a second reading. Now that is the bill that would provide, it stands in the name of my colleague from Twillingate, would provide that an employer would have to pay an employee during the period of that emergency in March.

Now it is no longer applicable to the hospitals because apparently the hospital boards have seen the light but there may still be a few employers who do not propose to pay their employees for that day. If it were agreeable,could we give it second reading and move it a stage ahead 7 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is a bill of course that is an amendment to the bill that 1Jas passed in preceding sessions when we had a si~ilar situation before and is one that I think because of the oririnal offer of it, would commend itself to favourable reception by the government.

However, the fact of the matter is that you know this being so, we say th,lt we arc goinr: to do the same th.ing as we • I urged,in opposition,ci1e government to do in the previous administration, which they did and we are goin~ to do it. So consequently it is somewhat the same as I believe The Tax Bill that the honourable Leader of the Opposition was speaking about. We have an intentlon to do it. We can tell employers that we are ~oing·to do it and we will 41S5

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1296 bring it on as early as possible,but employers should really 11:overn themselveR accordingly. lnaut~iblc. 1-fl? .• \!ARSHALL: I do not know actually whether it is up from the printers, l "!R. 1 ROBEP.TS: It is. ID{ - 5 ~- MARSHALL: It is up from the printers. Well we will bring it on as soon as possible. In the meantime I think __ it sl.ould be · known that the government is as consistent in government as it was in ·opposition. ,, ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Suppiy, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIR'-!AN (HR. STAGG): Order pl.ease!

Gentlemen for the information of the committee, we have consumed to date sixteen hours and eigh~een minutes of the seventy-five hours. MR, NEARY: Your Honour, are you in a position to give us a ruling now on whether the clock stops during quorum calls or is the time added on to the - is that included in the amount of time that Your Honour just gave 7 MR. CHAIRMAN: That is a hypothetical quest!on. My answer is directed to the honourable Member for Bell Island. That is a hypothetical question. The matter has not arisen in committee to ~ate. Mil. CROSBIE: Are we on item 406-01~ ls that correct?

Do the honourable gentlemen want td pass it or do they want to discuss it? Now, Mr. Chairman, this item was called Tuesday evening ~- just before we adjourned and since the honourable Leader of the Opposition indicated that he had a spasm or something of that nature when the item was called, I thoupht that perhaps· r had better, .s~_y _e few general words of background so that this thing can be put in its context. Well, Mr. Chairman, the amount that we are asking for for the coming year under the heading of entertainment is $100,000 4.i9o

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1296 NM - 6 and our estimate, the revised estimate,is that last year this item had cost $95,000. Of course until the books are closed at the end of April we will not be sure exactly what ,, / 4197

April 25, 1974, Tape 1297 (Afternoon) RH - 1 the amount was but as I said the other evening, Tuesday evening, the amount to date is $84,371.91.

It is not a hip.h amount, Mr. £oeaker, in a. budp.et of $M 5 million, I hiwe not calculated what the percenta,ze is, $P.4,nn'l,00 to $M,5 Million, but I do believe it would be a very small percentage, Now, Mr, Speaker, the honourable member is go:mg to try to make an issue out of this small item and appears to be in the full flush of some kind of tangent, I would just like to point out that up to 1969-70 the Liberal administration of which the honourable gentleman was a part did not have a separate vote for entertainment.

It was covered under~ vote called "other" and under "other 11 a multitude of things used- t·o be done including entertain'ment. The first year in which entertainment appeared as a separate ; vote ~as in 1970-71 and the amount that year voted was $44,824.00 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR, CROSBIE: Well, this is what I told him to get. AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: The public accountants over there. MR. CROSBIE: Yes.

It is 1970-71, $44,824.00 ·, In 1971-72, the last year of a Liberal administration, the amount totalled $76,453.00, entertainment was $76,453.00, In the year 1972-73 the amount was $~3,580,00 and this year the amount to date is $84,371.00. It may go to $95,000.00, That is our revised estimate, In the year 1970-71 when $44,000.00 was spent on entertaimnent the budget totalled $417 million.

In the year 1971-72 when $i6;ooo.oo was spent on entertaiTlJ!\ent the budget totalled $529 million, In 1972-73 when $83,000.00 was spent on entertainment the budget totalled $588 million; This year when the entertainment at the m01J1ent is $84,000.00 the budget totalled $645 million. So one can easily see, Mr, Chairman, that the increase on entertainment costs is not proportionate to the increase in the amount voted over all by this government.

For example, the difference between last year and this year in total spending, the year · just ended, was $57 million while the increase in entertainment at the moment is 4198

April 25, ln4. Tape 1297(Afternoon) RH - 2 about $800.00 and uhen all of the bills are in, maybe Sl2,nno,()O, I · do not think a very large increase in entert~inment. )fow, the entertainl'lent vote, M:r. Chairman, !ncludes luncheons, dinners a'1(1 rf"Ce"ltions d.ven hy the rovernnent. .i\s T said the othf"r day.the total of that was $39,0t'0,')I), That includes a nayrnent for dinners or luncheons for .groups visitine the Provin~e or people h,=winr, their f:l.rst convention here of a national character or other sped.al events like that.

This was all started by our predecessors. ',Te have found it necessary to continue the custom. I iive sone examples of it, It includes a budget reception which last year cost ·' $991. 311, a very sr.tall amount.

It inclu<les a , reception, for example,'f~r the Lions convention, $1,901.00~ a banc,uet and reception for the Aiiierican Legion, $1,548.00; a con­ tribu"tion by the governnent towards the P,iennial Convention of the Eastern Canada Association of the Deaf, $1,500.00: a banquet for delegates attending the Canadian Federation of Music Festivals, $1,427.00 and so on and so on; a reception and dinner for Lord Taylor on his retireMent, $2,274.36. Mr. Chairnan, I reC1t!l!lber in the last few years of the Small­ wood adninistration dinner after dinner, reception after reception.

Your head whirled with the receptions,and honourable gentlemen opposite say, "Resign." AN HONOURATILF. ~Mf,F.R: Inaudible. MR. CRO~!HE: Then it includes, Mr. Chairman, reception and dinner for the ~Tewfoundland and Labrador Association of Fire Chiefs, $4,169.56. MR. CHAIPu'-IA~ (Stam~): Order, please! Order, please! If the honour.able minister would permit, the Chair's attention has been directed to the fact that there is not a quorum in the coMmitte.e. Order, please!

For the infonnation of hon- ourable members the committee has ceased to function while we are waitin2 the three minutes for the committee to regain~ quorum. l(e have approximately one minute left. 4199

April 25, 1974. Tape 1297 (Afternoon) RI! - 3 MR. A. EVANS: Apparently the opposition wish to confuse it. According to my information my role is to try to keep a quorum in the l!onse. Apparently the honourable member is to try to keep it out, is he? AN l'O~·nt:P J\ f'.LF "F' 'l\ r.T!.: Pere! Herc! .. --· ....... ... . - . ... _, - - - MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. All I can say is that it is better to be out of the House with the gentleman °frorn Bell Island than to be in the House wHh the gentleman from Burr,eo. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, Sir. Now, Mr.

Chail"l!lan, I think my previous question would be in order. It is no longer a ,,, hypothetica~ one, Sir. Will the amount of time that it takes, the , three minutes during, the "'new rules brou~ht in by the Minister with- out Portfolio to have a three minute quorum call, ring the bell and then three minutes later determine whether there is a quorum in the House, will this be deducted from the seventy-five hours, Sir, or will the clock stop when a quorum is called? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, if the honourable gentleman is rising on a point of order, obviously the time consumed for the three minutes has to be deducted from the total of seventy-five hours. We cannot run stop watches such as that anymore than we could with a point of order. When a point of order is raised, we are not talking about the actual points necessarily under discussion in co111111ittee and we do not take time out for that, This is a limitation - in the case in committee of seventy-five hours, a limitation of the total time in debate.

The House is spendin~ its time in committee when it is spendinr, its time waitinB for the three minutes to expire. It is part of the procedures of the House and part of. the procedures of the committee. We have had the opportunity to consult with various authorities since yesterday and have been speaking with the people.in Toronto, in the Tory-blue Province of Ontario from whence this particular rule that we are talk _in~ about was extracted at the suggestion of the Le:tder of the Opposition, althour,h he did not subsequently vote for it. In that 4200

April 25, 1974. Tape 1297 (Afternoon) particular case up there where they have the limitation on the total timP. of cor.11'1ittee, points of order are also, I understand, included in the total time. Your Honour, if I may to that point of order. I subl'lit that the P,E>ntleman from St. John's East is not correct. First of all with reference to Ont'ario, I <lo not challenr,e his s:atc~ent there hut T mirht point out tha t in ✓ 4201

.>; April 25, 1974 Tape 1298 (Af~ernoon) PK - 1 Ontario the Houise is allowed 210 hours in committP.e, not the SP.Venty­ five that we have been arbitrarily restricted to here. The noint, ~ir, is this; the committee when it is meeting is limited to seventy-five hours of diRcussion on the estimates. That is clear 1,m, one might say. The rule is there. But, ,Sir, that must be while the committee is meeting. If there is no quorum the' committee is not meet:f,ng. If there is no quorum the House is not meeting.. That is the whole meaning of the word "quorum".

I know the Minister of Education will agree with me that the only puI1)ose of having the requirements for a quorum is that th~re be a sufficient number to enable a body to meet and thus to pass or t6 transact business, in our case the committee and in this case to'nass estimates.

So if there be no quorum the co11D11ittee cannot meet. ·Indeed, Sir, ~ Standing Order.a say, "When Your Honour takes the Chair at 3:00 P.?-1. and 8:00 P,M., if Your Honour does not see a quorum then Your H·onour is required to ascertain whether or not there is a quorum on that occasion then the House just stands adjourned or the Committee stands adjourned automatically." The '!)t'U'Dose of a quorum call is to ascertain whether or not there are enough member.a, whether there is a quorum.

In other words it is to ascertain whether or not the committee is meeting at all, in fact, whether in fact or in law it is meeting, Therefore it cannot be compared to a point of order. A '!)oint of order is a matter affecting the c011111ittee, of _upeetting the business of the committe. Obviously it comes off the seventy-five hours. But a quorum call is not, Sir. A quorum call has to do with whether or not the committee is validly meeting. It is not our fault that our rules require three minutes. This was the rule. that , was drafted by the ~ committee and I was a member of the committee.

I take responsibility for that, indeed I voted for the rule. N:>body antici~ated this but the obvious thing to do if the government feel that the rule is cumbersome, is to work out some new wordin~ and see what can be done with it, Rut to take the three minutes of a auorum call off is improper and not called for under the rules simply because the committee is not meeting at all, As Your Honour himself 4202

April 25, 1974 Tape 1298 (Aft~moon) PK - 2 said just a few minutes ago, ''That the committees have stood in abeyance." I quote Your Honour. I Tealize Your Honour was not making an ex cathedra rulinP: but Your Honour said, I think the exact words were "The Committee :fs not meeti,ir.." Now if the CcTl!ITlitteP. be not meet1.nP.. ol>viously the three mir>utes cannot be allowed to run; sirirply because the Co111111it tee is not rneetinr,.

Therefore I think the correct ruling in the matter, in my submission, is that when a r.iuorum call is called under the rules, the clock in effect is stopped and that three m:f.nute period or whatever is necessary to dispose of the matter,of whether or not there is a quorum cannot be taken off the seventy!five hours. To do otherwise would be to rulP.,Your Honour, that then the th,e consumed when the Committee :fR not meeting I must come off the seventy-five hours that the Committee shall meet. I think the matter is really quite clear. Mil. OTTF.NllF.IMER: Hr.

Chairman, if I may add my two cents'or one centig worth, as I see it the call for a quorum is a procedural move whereby any member i~ asking the Chair to determine whether the Committee has the ri~ht to continue meeting. The rule now rquires that there be a three minute interval between the reauest for that rulin,, whether there is a auorum or not, and the announcement of the fact. I would suggest if the announcement of the fact be to the affect that there is no quorum, then that interval should not count.

Whereas if after the announcement, the fact be to the affect that there is a ouorum then - I mean there has never been established then that there is no auo~, all that has heen asked for is that a count be made as to whether there is a quorum or not. "'!'.. RORF.'?1'S: In view of the point that the Chairnan himself said that the c0r.1111ittee just is not meeting for the three minute interval that is what he himself said ten minutes ago, in this House. Ml! • OTTF.~TPF!~R: Yes, all right now.

I would suP:gest that it is in •- session but not debating, oerha~e it is not de'hatinP: on whatever l>Oint is up for debate hefore that period of time but that the co11D11ittee is meetin,. hut if the Chainnan came back and reported, "No, there is no quorUJ!!, '' then the committee would not have he.en meet1np:, 4203

;; ..... Anril 25, 1974 Tape 1298 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. p_Q'flERTS: But he said, "The Committee was not meeting." Those were his exact words. How do the member argue with that? MR. 1-'ARSHAU.: Mr. Chairman, ~'R, Nf'A 'PY: Mr, r.hairman ------ MR, ~•ARSl-llI.L: Tnnudihlp,, MR. NF.ARY: Hr. Chairman, I have the floor first, Mr, Chairman. MR. ~ARSHALL: Do I h11.ve the. floor, Mr. Chairman? MP.. NFARY: Mr. Chaimnn, I had the floor first, the minister has already spoken on this point of order. 'MR. MARSHALi.: That does not make any difference. 'MR, CHAIRMAN (~TAGG): The Minister without Portfolio, . .,, , MR.

MARSRALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few - 'MR. NEARY:, Inaudible. MR. CRAIRMAN: (STAGG): Order, please! For the infor,nation of the honourable member, this Chairman is only equipped with one head and one set of eyes which hapnened to catch the Minister without Portfolio. "1R. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. MARSH.ALL: Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable member is just spoiling to get the royal boot again but we are not going to indulge his childish fantasies. t-!R·. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. MAP..SPA'LL: The fact of the matter, Mr.

Chairman, is this: it does not say in this · rule that when the bells ring the Committee st~n~s adjourned It says: "The Speaker shall"or in this case, "The Chairman sh.311 cause the bells to be rung and shall cause the count to commence when three minutes have elapsed :l.n the ringing of the bells." It does nnt mean that we are out of Committee at all, the Comnittee is still existing and is still functionin~. It does not stand adjoumed. You do not have to go back to report to the Speaker.

I think it is qufte evident - I will also indicate that this is a ruling in Conunittee and, of course, the ruling in the Rouse may be different because you are talking about bare limitation of members speeches as against\this is a different Aituation altogether. Bnt, 4204

April 25, 1974 Tape 1298 (Afternoon) PK - 4 I think, it is quite clear. Just as points of order. Just as where we have - ~, NF.AR.Y: Imrndihle, ---- ,<t>. "J\T>~Jli\U,: T-Then 'loints of or.der are hein~ broup,ht U'l, we do not sit d01m and clod-: ther.1, I mean it would become com!)letely and ahsolutely unManaP,eable to carry on the work of Committee, if yQU had to take fifteen 11econds out t~hen a point of order was being talked about and what have you. It is <1uite clear.

It is the wav things are, It is the practice adopted in the Jloui::e. ~n the le~islature from which we E'!Xtracted the main porti~n of this -StandinR Order. I think the :f.ssue is crystal clear. 'MR, NEA'lY: Mt. Chairm~n, there is no talk of clockinR a point of order, Sir, that is a red herrin~ that the minister just dragged into this point of order that was ra:f.sed previously, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to point out to the members o·f the Committee that according to our Standing Rule~ of this Rouse, Sir, fourteen members must' be in the House in order for business to be legally transacted in this - AN FON, '.MF"'BFR: Inaudible. ~. Nl'A~.Y: Not only the rules, Sir, but as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, accordin~ to the ·act it · is improper and illegal, Mr. Chairman, to conduct business in this Fouse unless there Are fourteen members seated.

Now under the new rules, Your P.onour counts the House and·not seeing a ouorum Your Honour will either p;o and ring the bell or send the Clerk to ring the bell. "'R. ROBFJ!TS: That is right, he only rings it when he does not s~e a ~. quorum. MR, NEARY: When Your HOT'Our does not see a quorum, Your Honour countA the House. No quorum, we cannot transact business, Your Honour. so· Your Honour will go and ring the bell or send the Clerk to rinr, the· bell. As of that moment, Mr. Chairman, the moment the hell rin~s the 4205

..... Apdl 25, 1974 Tape 1298 (Aft.ernoon) PK - 5 ' clock should Atop. Hecause as Your Honour indicated a few minuteR a~o, when the Burgeo Burp was tryin~ to ra1.se a point of order and there was all kinds of a hullabaloo goin~ on in the House, Your Honour indicated that the HousP. 'has ceased to onerntc, that the committee was no longer funct:loninr,. He could have gone out in the middle c,f the floor and had a dance if ve wanted to, Mr. Chairman, you know that. · ~'embers know that.

I could have gone over and took the Minister of Finance by the scruff of the neck out into the middle of the floor and had a wrestling match on the floor with him and Your Honour could not do a think about it. because the Hous~ had ceased to operate. So ~ say• Sir,' that Your Honour does not have any choice except to rule that th~ clock s~op when the bells ring. We are not talking about a point of order, Sir. We are quite prepared to accept the fact ~ that a point of order or a point of privilege or a ~oint of information or any other point be included in the seventy-five hours.

I am not arguing ·about that at all, Sir. MR. BARRY: · To that point of order. Mr. Chairman, I can agree with most of what the honourable Member for Bell Island said to the affect that this House cannot legally carry on when a quorum is not present and when it has been determined that a quorum is not present but that is the whole point, Mr. Chairman, that we are discussing here now.

How to determine that there is no quorum present: I submit, under the rules that Your Honour rings the bell not when he knows that theTe is not a quorum present but when as the rule says; "When'ttie Speaker's attention has ·been directed to the fact that there is not a quorum present." His attention has been drawn to that. It has not been a final decision that there is no quorum. I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that~ debate should continue after the bell has rung and in three minutes Your P.onour then does the official count or has the Clerk - Your Honour shall cauee the count to co11111ence when three minutes have elapsed from the rin~ing of the bells. In the meantime, the Conmittee should continue in operation. The time should be deducted from the time that the honourable 4206

ATlt"iJ 75, J974 tape 1298 (Afternoon) PK - 6 memhers have on the e:;;tJmates and that would solve the problem. l•'e 'l-1ould not be wastin~ the time of this Rouse, we would not be oermittinj! · honourable memhers ooposite to harass speakers and to interrullt them by callinp, a quorum and then walking out. I submit that Your Honour - that thP. c~rrect rulinp. is that the Committee continues in operation until Your Honour hai; determined that a quorum is not! i,resent. And ,_ / 4207

April 25, 1974 Tape 1299 IB-1 Your Honour does not do that ·\IIltil after the bells have been rung and three minutes have elapsed. Mll. ROBE TITS: ~Ir. Cha:! rman, if I might add a further word. The gentleman from Pl 11cc11tl11 Wc8t has mnde a couple of st.-1tcmcnts which even he, I suggest, finds it difficult to make with a straight face. First of all, Your Honour earlier in the committee ruled that it was Your Honour's duty and right io determine that there was not a quorum present. This point was argued at some length and Your Honour ruled upon it.

We were not in favour of Your Honour's ruling. )le argued against it until it was made and we now accept it. I think Your Honour will confirm that Your Honour said it W'as Your Honour's duty when somebody said quorum, Your Honour had to see if there were fourteen. If there were not fourteen, then and only then could Your Honour ring the bells. That in itself, 1 think, disposes of the point raised by the gentleman from Placentia West. I mean the ruling of the committee is clear. I did not hear him arguing against it. Even for a schoolboy. debater, _he - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Even the House of Lords can overrule.

MR. ROBERTS: The House of Lords cannot overrule itself, Sir, because .they say that state decisis applies. The Sup·reme Court of the United States regularly overruled themselves. The gentleman from Placentia West has been caught in an inconsistency. Let him at least be·man enough to admit it, that he has been caught in an inconsistency. The second point he made, Mr. Chairman, is nonsensical, completely nonsensical to say that when the bells are rung and ~ the word has gone out, hither and yon, to try to drag the members in, the committee should carry on.

Indeed, Sir, that flies in the very face of logi~. · _-rhe only reason the bells are being rung is that there are not fourteen men present in the House. The committee cannot carry on. The honourable the Minister of Energy is trying very hard 4208

April 25, 1974 Tape 1299 to win bt;ownic points, Sir, but he will have to find a more substantial case to present than the one he has presented. I IB-2 think the more the debate goes on the m?re it becomes clear that there is only one possible ruling. That is that when Your Honour has determined there is not a quorum present - Your Honour, I would remind you, Sir, Your Honour ruled quite clearly that it .was up to Your Honour to determine whether or not there was a quorum present, There was quite a bit of debate on that point. Your Honour made a ruling.

Your Honour ruled that somebody could draw Your nonour's attention to the fact there was a quorum present but Your Honour determined it.

Now, when it i~ determined there is not a quorum present, Sir, the only point of ,the three minute rule is that the House is not counted out, that we have to wait three minutes before the House is counted out. / So, I think it is obvious that if Your Honour comes- to the conclusion that there is not a quorum present, Your Honour then orders the bell rung, the committee is not meeting, the House if we are in a full House _is not meeting, There is no legal -~uthority for it to meet. There is no legal way in which it can meet. Therefore this three minutes should not come off the seventy-five hours.

It is interesting to note we have probably consumed more time on this one point of order Tuesday night and today than we have on all the quorum calls called either by us or by such gentlemen as the gentleman from Port· de Grave who called one the othC?r day. J.t. is a very important point and I think one well worth the debate. MR. ~ARSHALL: If the honourable Leader of the Opposition will perr.iit a question. Is he saying that the House is adjourned whC?n the - MR. ROBERTS: ~o. MR. MARSHALL: Is he saying the House is adjourned when there is not a quorum? MR, ROBERTS: I do not think I could say that, Mr.

Chairman, The point is that the House is not in session. MR. MARSHALL: Now, the committee is adjourned, does he think? 4209

April 25, 1974 Tape 1299 lB-3 }IR,...B_OHER~:- Well, the committee could not transact. If the committee were to transact business - MR. Nl!:ARY: On a point of order, Mr, Chairman. MR, ROBERTS: Hold on, "Steve". MR. Nl!:ARY: One cannot have two members standing in this llouse at the same time. The Minister of Finance should be aEked to take his seat, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: I am answering a question. I think it is a good point of parliamentary law, a very good point.

If the committee were to transact business ~ijen the Chairman - I think the ruling fact is the fact _that the Ch'ainuan determines that in fact there are not fourteen men ib the coIUID.ittee. We had a ruling from the present Chairman .of committees to that point, right on point on all fours. MR •. MARSHALL: Technically speaking the committee is not transacting business now for the past - MR. ROBERTS: ·The committe£ is transacting business. A point ·of order is a legitimate point of business and so forth. No, No, Mr.

Chair~an, the point is deaa on that if the committee were to pass an estimate, for example, during that period while the bells are rung and members are coming in and out, before Your Honour has said,~! have counted and the bells have been rung and the three minutes has elapsed,~ I suggest, Sir, that somebody could go before a court and have that estimate struck down on the grotmds that it had not been validly passed by the legislative body. The House cannot meet, the committee cannot meet tmless there are fourteen members present. Those are the rules. MR, O'rTENHEIMER: If you would, Mr.

Chairman, hear one further or perhaps several other submissions. I ·would suggest that the committee continues i~ its meeting during that three minute interval but that the debate is suspended during that period. I would also suggest that unless and until there is a statement from the Chair that there is no quorum that it is presumed that at no period has it been found that there is no quorum. In other words, when a member asks for a quorum call, l would 4210

April 25, 1974 Tape 1299 IB-4 suggest that the procedure is not for Your Honour to look and to make a quick judgement, "Oh, it looks like there might be less than fourteen or it looks like there might be a lot more." I would suggest that if there were obviously twenty-five roughly members in their scats, that Your Honour would still be obliged to go through the procedure that the rules determine because there is~ procedural right that any member has that it be _officially certified that there is a quorum present.

I would suggest that if every seat but three or four were filled and a member asked for a quorum call, I suggest that the Chai.r would not have the tUscretion to say that it does not think it is .. necessary; th~t the member h4s a right to require that certification, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, Your Honour may have ruled on it but I am suggesting that perhaps with respect ne would not be the first one to revise a ruling. What I am suggesting is that there is a procedural right, that every member has to ask for that certification of fact. MR. SIMMONS: I cannot believe my ears, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister of Education should be so obviously mischievous on this point. I think the record will show if he will check what he just said w~th · the earlier debate on this subject a week or so ago when the matter was first raised that sll _the argument on the government side and perhaps including his was quite opposite on the point. It is clear, Mr. Chairman, that the proc~dure was agreed to here in the House a week or two ago to the effect that there would be an informal determination of whether there was a quorum or not.

Only if there was not a quorum present would the bells be rung, The fact of the ringing of the bells means there is no quorum.· I maintain that no business of the House can be transacted in the interim, between the ringing of the bells and the annoU11cemcnt of the fact· that there is a quorum. So that three minutes are not part of the time in the committee. Mr. Chairman, we can certainly make a bar~ain here. We 4211

April 25, 1974 Tape· 1299 1B-5 cannot have it both ways. Certainly there is merit in either but one cannot have it as we have been having it for 11 week when it is to their advantage on the government side and na\<! suddenly reverse the entire

interpretation, We have been operating for a week or two on the undcrstandin~ that only if there is no quorum present.on the informal determination of that by the Chairman would the bells be rung, I maintain therefore that once the bells are rung, the business of the committee is suspended,not at all like a point of order, obviously. The business of the coniillittee is suspended Ulltil the announcement that a quorum is present. Until that time no business can be transacted,, I w;11 suggest one other bargain we can make, Mr. Chairman.

We will stop calling quorums if enough government members stay in the ·House so we do not have to call for quorums. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sounds logical. MR. SIMMONS: Sure, it sounds logical. That is the whole problem. MR. CROSBIE: I have not noticed Your Honour busily writing down these points. I therefore . feel that·Your Honour must have a photographic memory because there ·has been a veritable torrent of words. I have not seen Your Honour writing anything down. I know the capacious mind that you·have an~_the tremendous mental agility. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if I had not really been sitting here, I would not have believed that this scene existed. outside Kafka or some other author like that because I am one of the few members present who was actually in the House on a day when the government was caught without a quorum at around four thirty in the afternoon when the then member for B~rgeo was speaking on the Budget Speech. The then Premier was in the Chair here reading "Time Magazine" and there were three or four of the opposition opposite when at a strategic moment they all quietly ~!~hdrew.

A quorum call was made and when the deputy speaker counted the House, Lo and behold! there were. only nine members: He strode out of the House and said that he had to adjourn 4212

April 25, 1974 Tape 1299 IB-6 the House. I raced over after him to the Speaker's office, intercepted by the Premier coming in to tell the Speaker what to do, insisted the rules said we had to adjourn until three o'clock tomorrw afternoon, We did adjourn. I am one of the few veterans of that scene. Now, to come back to the scene we are tal~ing abc .ut. That scene can no longer happe _n because now the bell has to be rung. That gives you three minutes to call evaryone together. There is no reason in this world, ~fr. Chainian, why despite your ruling - I bring this to your attent-1.ou, _t;ha~ Y.r.

Justice Dunfield once - l had a trial before Mr,. Justice D'unfield who ruled against me and who sat 011 the appeal hi1nself an<l ,1:wo othe .r judges of the Appeal Cou.rt ana he overruled himself. That is the kind of man of vision, of de~th of_: mind· and 4213

..... April 25, 19?4 Tape no, 1300 Page 1 - MW spirit that Mr, Justice Dunfield had, He certainly was not senile, Right to his last days he was a v;Lgorous and a strong-minded man. if the Chairman should overrule himself! he shall be following in a great tradition, I see no reason why after the bell is rung. we cannot continue on, I only have one last point to make before we run out of a quorum again . and that is this, Mr.

Chairman, that the quorum calls we are being harassed with every day here, the Liberal interruptness calls I prefer to call them• are only an attempt to interrupt the business of .... the House, , There has been a quorum on nearly every occasion that a quorum call is called until members of the opposition leave deliberately so that we oo longer have fourteen members, we only have eleven or twelve. These quorum' calls are deliberate strategy, Members opposite for no reason at all leave their seats and go out just on a quorum call to harass the House officials.

I, therefore, submit, Mr, Chairman, that in all due course and with all due solemnity, with all due impartiality, and with all the strength and vigor I have at my command, that you should follow Mr. Justice Dunfield's precedent and overrule yourself and allow us tog~ on with our business while the bell is rung.

If that should not work we shall nail the shoes of the members to the floor or put lead in their pants or we take some measure so they will stay in their seats, particularly member• opposite who are leaving time after time on false quorum calls and angering the public of the province,as I diacovered yesterday in Grand Falls.

There were ten outraged ciµls from listeners-in who said that they were outraged at the members of the opposition who were having deliberate quorum calls all day long in the House, MR, NEARY: Mr, Chairman, I happened to hear the honourable gentleman during the commercials on the station I was on. He was having a talk-ahow. There were no phone calls, all talk, all gab, all lip, no phone calls. Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of points - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr, Stagg) : Order please! Is the honourable member going to be relevant to the point of order? 4214

April 25, 1974 Tape no, 1300 Page 2 - MR, NEARY: Mr. Cha:l.rman, there were a couple of points made, one by the Minister of Education, Sir, who made a couple of suggestions, I submit to Your Honour that it is not in order, Sir, to make suggestions, The rule's are laid down in black and white, The government changed the rules of this House, Sir, a couple of weeks ago by getting a two-thirds , majority in the House, two-thirds of the members of the House, They brought members off their deathbeds to get them in here to vote for these rules, Sir. _}N HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR, NEARY: AN HON.MEMBER: I hope not, ,. (Inaudible), MR. NEARY: Well they did, Sir, They did some of the members an injustice by dragging them in here in this honourable House to vote for these rule changes, The rules are there in black and white, Sir. One cannot make suggestions, The Minister of Education suggested this, that and the other thing. But, Sir, it is just as sensible for me to suggest that we serve cocktails during these three minutes, It is just as sensible, Sir. How can I suggest that Your Honour do this or that Your Honour do that? The rules are there. They must be followed. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. NEARY: The Minister of Finance says that Judge Dunfield gave us a precedent. Well,Sir, that was a matter of judgment, The human element entered into it, They were appealing on grounds of judgment not rules and regulations that are laid down in black and white. One does not see a referee in a hockey game making up his own rules as the game goes on. They are laid down. He has a rule book. We have a rule book, the Standing Rules of thi~ House. One cannot deviate from them, Sir. They are there. They are laid down in black and·white.

I think Your Honour does not have any choice but to stop the clock when the bells ring. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): To all honourable members: This is a matter of some concern, indeed it is a matter which will govern us or at ~east . 4215

.,; April 25, 1974 Tape no, 1300 Page 3 until it is overruled, Whether a decision is made at the present time - I do not feel inclined to make that decision without having given it the consideration that it warrants. Consequently, a decision will be made at a later date, probably later on this afternoon. Honourable members can conduct business in the normal way.

If quorums are called, we will conduct ourselves in the manner to which we have become accustomed, albeit for a short time, If indeed a ruling may change that, then we will deal with that at the time it arises, ,, MR, CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr, Chairman, , As I was saying before I was interrupted about twenty-five minutes ago, I was giving some instances of dinners and so on that the government have paid for; dinner tendered by the government for the 100th Anniversary of the R.C,M,P,, $3,371.34 and so on, There are a number of dinners, receptions alike, A dinner tendered by the government for visiting German Fiscal Agents of Dresden Bank was $827,00 and various instances like that, The total of the entertainment expenses for the Soviet delegates {I do not know which Soviet delegates these were but apparently we had a Soviet delegation.

I do not know whether Mr. Smallwood was with t~em or not) was $224.85, AN HON, ~mER: {Inaudible), MR. CROSBIE: "John Carter" went on a mission to Moscow, and he will be back. That is $39,309.99. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, the Premier and members of the government and officials of the government from time to time have to entertain people they are doing business with. either here or on the Mainland or elsewhere. Mr. Chairm~, . as I said the last d_ay and I w:111 repeat, these are items over what?

The rule is that if the amount involved exceeds $100, it has to go to Treasury Board for approval, If the amount is less than $100, it can be approved by,the minister concerned or the Premier, by them or their officials. Amounts over $100, entertainment that the Premier had last year, the fiscal year just ended, totalled $8,098.91. 4216

April 25. 1974 MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: --- - -- MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: ------ there is. Tape no, 1300 These are totals over $1007 Yes. this is the total of entertainments over $100. (Inaudible). Page 4 That is correct, Right, Probably the,e is · and doubtless I must say that I did have two luncheoqs myself; one for the representatives of Merrill Lynch and Burns Brothers. $281.41 and representatives o! the Department of Finance. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaud:rble), MR. CROSBIE: No. I do ~o~ think so but it is possible, I do not remember.

That does not burn itself on my memory. / There was another luncheon in Switzerland. tendered by dignataries involved in the signing of the Swiss franc loan~ $374.63. MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: · Does ~he honourable gentleman have a Swiss bank account? I wish I did, While I was there I tried to check up on some other accounts but they will not give any one the names. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR., CROSBIE: No• he was not at the lunch, Mr, Peper and I were sacrificing our all for the people of Newfoundland, MR.ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERT;:,: MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible). That is what I have.

It is a job to keep it down, · (Inaudible). Order rlease! The Hon, Leader of the Opposition knows the rule quite well that when an honourable member is speaking. he does have the right •o he heard in silence. I suggest that that rule he observed. MR. CROSBIE: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Anyway. the amount for ministers was $2.370,15, Then there are amounts for other officials of the government and so on, $3.575.15. Items under $100 which cover ministers, civil servants and any one else · involved. $31,017,71 for a total of $84,371.91. That is the entertainment amount for this year. I tried to put it in context, Mr.

Chairman, in 4217

April 23, 1974 Tape no, 1300 Page 5 case honourable gentlemen opposite want to adopt their usuai tactics of trying to infer that there is anything unusual or large or extraordinary about this, It has been our practice, Mr. Chairman, which I think differs in some respects from that of the previous a9ministration,to pay - we feel the government should pay to entertain people,here .on business and so on in addition to them paying for entertainment for government officials.

It may have been the practice in other days to accept entertainment and do nothing in return although the figures do not bear that out, We fe~l that it is proper for the Newfoimdland Government to bear it~ share and'this is the amount, which is not unusual and which is only $8,000 ~ore than,~he amount was in 1971 and 1972. MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister, He did not reply r to the question I put to him on Tuesday evening as to whether I would be permitted the same privilege which was accorded to an e~rlier,. I think, Leader of the Opposition. I do not know whether the Hon.

W,J,Br9wn was leader or merely a member at that time AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. ROBERTS: He was never Leader of the Opposition. He is about the only one in the House· who has not been Leader of the Opposition at one time or another, past or future. 'He certainly was an opposition member and that then strengthens it, The 4218

.. April 25, 1914 Tape No. 1301 · NM - 1 then Premier agreed to Mr. Brown's _request that he, ?-tr. Brown, be allowed to proceed to the Department of Finance to examine vouchers and I made the same query of the honourable ~linister of Finance. He did not respond to it. I do not know if he should want to make any responser.ow, I know he had to speak to the Premier, That I can understand. t-m.. CROSl3IE: Mr. Chairman, I never made any response the other night because that would not be a .. decision made by me alone. I have since consulted with the Premier and my collegue.

There is no correlation ·as far as I can see, Mr. Chai~ma~• between ,,. the inc'ident the honourable gentle111an mentions about Mr. Brown going through invoices and the present vote. I believe if my memory serve me right that these many years ago Mr.

Brown had made certain charges in connection with the Newfoundland Hardwoods Plant. lf my memory serve me corre_ctly there were alleaation~ of wrong doing and so on and the government to quiet them down denying there were any wrong doings, said that if he wanted to go and look through all the invoices and so on he was free to do it, Apparently he went and did it, As far as I remember he could not find anything wrong. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have an Auditor General.

There is no allegation and if there is anything wrong with any of these charges they are entertainment of the government, I have summarized them and the government therefore see no reason whatsoever why the honourable member's request should be approved or assented to, In fact it would be an extremely bad precedent. ~- POBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I regret the "minister's answer because I suggest there is something wrong. Let me be quite clearon what I am sur,r.esting and talking about. I am not talkinr, about the government banquets.

The Minister of Finance deliberately or not is trying to shall we soy pull the napkin over the banqueters eyes by his references to years past. I am as aware as he ia and everybody in the co11D11ittee is aware that there have been banquets and presumably 4219

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1301 NM - 2 there always will be. I happen to think they are • · waste of time. Nothinp rives me less pleasure to go to any banquet outside my district. I am quite happy with any functions .sponRored by any rovernment in my own constituency,! am quite happy to go. However, be that as it may the government mus_t entertain and the government do entertain and that is quite ~roper and really it would be quite wrong not to do it.

The Mini~ter of Finance • I submit is trying to hide someth~ng and what he is trying to bide has got nothing to do with the - and by the way let me say that if the Premier wants to enter into debate I will yield the floor at any point begause the votes under question, as the Minister of Finance has stressed to us,involve the Premier.

I am no.t suggesting that there is anything wrong in the sense the Premier has put anyt~ing / - in his pocket or done ·anything like that at all. l think I am as conscious as any member of the demands made upon whoever happens to be Premier of the province in the way of having to enterain people and take them out to meals and generally do the social thing. What concerns me, Sir, are not the banquets. The total of the banquets may have gone up or may have gone down.

What concerns me are some of the items and I have here the figures drawn from the Auditor General's Report, the official public . ' accounts for two years, the only two years for which we have !igures, 1971-1972 and the following year 1972-1973. Durini those two years, Sir, I will refer to five headings - Business Luncheons and Receptions went from $2,600 in 1971•1972 to 0 $9,600 in 1972-1973. l do not have a figure for the 1974 year because no public accounts have been tabled. That year of cou~se only ended, well it has not yet ended in the bookeeping sense, it ended three or four weeks ago.

The books will be closed in another week or ten days, the end of this month. Meals and Refreshments Supplied Guests of ,Government at Confederation Building, thet is the headin~ in the public accounts. In 1972-1972 there were $912 and in 1972-1973 there were $4,375. 4220

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1301 NM - 3 Official Entertainment by the Premier in 1971-1972 was listed as nil. In 1972-1973 it went up to $2,832, The figure given us by the Minister of Finance, he was not asked but he volunteered it and I am glad he did,was $8,100 in round figures, So it has gone up. The Press Receptiot·s figure was nil in 1971-1972. It went up to $1,400 in round figures in 1972-1973 and the miscellaneous went from in round fir,ures, $400 in 1971~1972 to $2,500 in·1972- 1973. I have no idea what that is but it is a lot of miscellaneous.

Now, Mr~ Chairman, let me first deal with the point the Minister of ,Finance makes that this is a very small percentage of the e$timates. Of course it is. It is an infinitesimal pe_rcent·age. It is a portion of one per cent of the total expenditure of this government. Mr. Chairman, that is not the point. The point is that these _are public funds and the question is are they being spent properly. All that the Auditor General can determine, Mr. Chairman, is whether or not these funds have been spent in accordance with the legislative authority.

If he finds that they have then he certifies them that the accounts are correct. The reason why I asked to see the vouchers and it is obvious that the government are not going to permit it, the reason why I asked is because I want to see on what they were spent. ,Now perhaps the Premier will tell us. To do the man justice, Mr. Chairman, he was not here the other evening when the committee met. It was quite late. It was 10:50 p.m. when this item happened to come up and it may well be there are perfectly straightforward and logical explanations. I await these.

I feel. that I am justified in asking for them because not only are these public funds but, Sir, to my kno'W'ledge, my knowledge may not be complete but it is reasonably complete, the former Premier never made a practice of havinP, official entertainment char~ed off to the government. I am not aware that he did,as the ~inister of Finance so slyly suggested he was 4221

,._. April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1301 NM - 4 entertained by other people. I am sure he was entertained by other people just as I am sure the present Premier is entertnined by other people. I am sure the Minister of Finance on occasion has broken bread with somebody else supplying the wheat 11nd the douph that goes into the bread and the d_ough that , pays for the bread. I mean that is a suggestion which reveals only that the Minister of Finance realizes he is on a sticky wicket. So the question is simply what official entertaining is being done,if ~his be over and above travel expenses.

It is over and ab~ve where a ~overruuent give a banquet. It is over and above where some delegation come down, they are bond people or some, industrial group coming to speak with the Minister of Industrial Development; that is all quite proper. For example National Sea come down to talk about tr~~lers ~nd the minister takes them to lunch; that is a proper enough charge in certain circumstances against government service. There is nothing wrong with that. But, Sir, there is a prime facie case that there is something wrong with $8,100 going on official entertainment. I would like to · know what it is.

That is why I asked_wµat the vouchers showed. The vouchers are the only way to show where it went and for what purposes. Perhaps the Premier, I outlined a case and the Piemier could say a few words. He seems to be gathering himself across the committee. Sir, maybe he could set our mind~ at rest •. Sir, I think there is a point. There is a point at which the public shoui'd be s.atisfied." MR. MOORES: Mr. Chairman, I could do my best to s~t the honourable member's mind at Test but that.would be too big a ~hallenge for this afternoon.

The fact is that I think I should say something about the $8,000. · It has become -a major issue of the-day. The Mini~teT of Finance emphasized it. MR. '.·fOOIU:S: Well for a change we are not at all backwaTd about 4222

April 25, 1974 Tape No. 1301 NM - 5 discussing it and there is no reason why we should not. l was surprised to see that in 1971 the Pre~ier of the province spent nil. With all -the free hash he ate, Mr. Chairman, that was quite a feat • . It is almost unbelievable Mr. Smallwood was so successful for so many years in getting so many f~ee meals. The obligations that obviously were accrued we have ~aid frr over and over but the fact is that even thour,h the previous Premier did a lot of travellin~,he obviously spent very little money. But the fact remains, Mr.

Speaker, that in those days and I think the Leader of the Opposition as well as members on this , side of the House are ln a position to know that the Premier of that day _was. very insistent that other ministers travelling with him would pick up signinr authorities or e~penses or whatever. '!Jt. ROBERTS: But this $8,100 does not include travel expenses. MR. !100RES: In one case it does but in this case - Y.R. ROBERTS: Inaudible.

MR. ~OORES: Well that be as it may and also the fact is that this $8,100 includes the dining room which was, as mentioned in the 1972 figures for the Premier's expenses, - the dining room was $7;1QO~ $4,300 and $2,800 l think the Leader of the Opposition mentioned. I did not have those figures previously. But gl~dly will I ~ive the fipures 'on how that $8,000 is broken down,as best I can here in somewhat general terms but I think 4223

~· April 25, 1974 Ta~e 1302 (Afternoon) PK - 1 enough to qualify what it means. In the province, entertain~n~ groups that have come here,but I will break it down further in a moment, was $3,~~0, out-of-nrovince entertaininp. was $2,QOO and $1,4nO associated with the dininr, roo~. In the local entertainment, the in-province, there were sixteen various functions in fifteen months. It includes fifteen months by the way, Mr. Chairman.

Which were used for various industrialists and senior people from out-of-the-province·that visited here as well as visiting ~ignitaries from the U.K., Germany, as well as federal ministers and officials from Otta~a~ As ~n examole of what I am talking about, Mr. Chainnan, next Monday there ate seven gentlemen from Janan arriving and three Canadian industrialists.They are here on what could be very imnortant matters to , the government and on next Wednesday evening there will be a dinner for them which is a sort of an ex~ense we have incurred here.

There have been aoproximately 300 people in the sixteen functions in the past fifteen months which basically is the $3,600 expenditure. That has been spent in various establishments in the province. I think virtually all the major restaurants and hotels in the city, certainly there is nothing to be gained by inspecting the vouchers to see where they ate. I think the amount is important. I tHink who visited her~ was important. I could review the total list of individuals.

I do not think a great deal would be achieved but I can say there were approximately 300, in total, including provincial ministers., provincial officials and those visiting dignitaries, industriaiists, their senior peonle and federal .. ministers and so on. Out-of-the-province eX1>enditure which was $2,900; that included two ~rips to London, quite B few trips to Ottawa and quite a few trips to ~ontreal. In total during those trips there were some ten distinct functions held.

The refinery for instance, when the second refinery was done, there was one in the U.K., _ECGD, the British financial people were involved, various financiers, various industrialists again and others. Equally in Ottawa, of course we had federal officials and we had federal 4224 .

Ayiril 25, 1Q74 Tape 1302 (Afternoon) PK - 2 minister for sp.ecifi<' dinners. We had at the First Ministers' Conference, for instance this vear we had two distinct functions for visitinp. dele~ations for reasons that I hone l"'.f l 1 become obvious this year. In one case there ~,as a $7()() expense :In for a five day tri'!'), I think it was, ·re'1;ardinp: hotel anrl other exoenses, so a hotel bill did re.t in there. In Ottal"a we saw business contacts as well.

In ?'ontreal we had one fuJ1ction which involved inrlustrialists particularly in that case it was I.O.C. which was the major reason we had that at that time. The dining roo~ which was $1,400, Mr. Chairman, last year it did not include anv hooze; as we are blamed for or any wine as the previous Premier was blamed for 01 _any beer which he could leave or take <'r whatever. The fact is that the dinine room last year was almost,not quite, 700 . varioµs neonle ate there. That included ministers of the crown. It included working luncheons, believe it or not.

It included representatives of labour, quite a few, representatives of business in the local community and people who came ir from outside. As the Leader of the Opposition and as the Opposition well know, these ueople almost 700 that used that dining room at a cost of $1,400 at $2.00 a meal,J guess that is the cheapest meal in to~-n, Mr, r.hairman. But the fact is, I think, with all due respect, putting it•into proportion J think that the Onposition and ourselves both realize that these functions and this sort of meeting and this sort of thing is essential.

I have made it anoint of registering it under the Premier Offic~ which I think it is a fair thing to do. I do n~t th:1.nk thev are exorbitant figure-s, as a ma~ter of fact, when you take out-of-pocket expenses, it is prohably a very low fi~ure. But I think it is reasonable. I hope that satisfies the Leader of the nnnosition, at least certainly nart way. ),'tl. CP.AI~!>8: Shall 40~-nl-01 carry? On motion 40~-01-01 carried. MR • CF.A Ilt"fAN: Before proceedin~ with nroceedings further I wish at this time to make a ruling on the matter which came up in committee earlier. 4225

April 25, 1974 Tape 1302 (Afternoon) PK - 3 I would like to direct honour.able members attention to the wording of Standing Order 116 (

a) which reads as follows: "The nroceedin~s in Committee of Supply shall he limited to not more than seventy-five hours to be reduced in accordance with the followin~ provisions of this S_tanding Order." Then to Standing Order 5, as amended, which :ieads as follows: "If notice is taken b)' a memher that there is not a quorum present in the Committee of the Whole the Chairman follows the course pursued by the Speaker of the House.

If he ascertains that 14 members are net present he leaves the Chair, the House is resumed, and, on his report the Sneaker counts the House or may cause the House to be count~d by one of the Clerk's of the House, and if there be not thl!n a quorvm he must adjourn the House forthwith." The sentence to which I draw honourable members particular ~ attention is in the middle of that particular Standing Order and is the following, "If he ascertains'; he being the Chairman of C011111ittees, "Ascertains that 14 members are not.present,he leaves the Chair." Until the Chairman leaves the Chair the CoDD11ittee is in session.

Consequently all time consummed while the Chairma~ is in the Chair will be deducted from the seventy-five hours set aside for the c~sideratton of estimates. Shall 406-01-02 carry? AN HON. MEMBER: What is the breakdown? MR. CROSBIE: That is the cost of getting an insurance policy to cover employees travelling on non-schedule air flights based upon actual flying time for prev~ous years. noes the honourable gentleman want to know who the policy is with? AN RON. 'MEMBER: Government aircraft. MR. CROSBIF.: Yes, well it might be government, it might be any kind of - but does he want to know who the policy is with?

AN RON. Pm-':RFR: No, Sir. AN RON. MF.f-fB F.R: !,P.A. MR. CROSBIF.: He did not want to know. It is Bowrings. On motion 406-0l-02 carried. MR. CHAnMAN: Shall 406-01-03 carried? 4226

April 25, 1974 Tape 1302 (Aftrrnoon) PIC - 4 MR, NF,ARY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what this is all about. Institute of Public Administration of Canada - other $145,000. Could the minister give us a breakdown on that, Sir. ~. c~n~JHF.: I can ~tve Mm a breakdown of the Institute of Public Ad~inistration, $2,200, Tt is a membershio fee for.the government to belong to the Institute of Public Administration of Canada which all -, Mll. NF.ARY: We are doing 01-04, £re we not? MR. CROS'RIE: 04? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but ~e asked about 03 first. Now he wants to do Yes. Hell tpis is a contingency account, Mr.

Chairman.and has been in the estimates for many years. In previous years it has varied in size, Forexamole, in 1970-1971 when the honourable gent;eman was in the govern~ent - $345,301 t~at is what it came to, Then the year after that 1971-1972 it was $131,000, in 1973, it came to $95,000. This year to date it is ~149,000, So it is a vote for contingencies, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CP.OSBIE: I will give some examples now of what some of the contin~encies were.

For example,there was $8,112 paid for survey of government leased properties to make sure we were not leasing more s~ace than was actually there. That was done by Avalon Construction and Engineering Limited: !-'R·. NF.ARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: !'!R. CR()SBIE: MR. NEARY: Is that Mr. Wilson? That certainly is. It is? Ah! A very fine, ca?able - A great Tory. AN FION. !-ID-fBER: 1-".y buddy. MR. NEAPY: MR, CROSBIE: MR. NF.ARY: MR. CROS'RIF.: MR. NF.ARY: ~- CROSllIF.: 4227 George Wilson, that great Tory. I do not know whether that gentleman is a Tory or not. But I can tell him, he is.

He is a tremendous public servant. How much did he get out of that, $14,000, Sir? F.i~ht thousand one hundred and twelve.

Aoril 25, 1974 Tape 1302 (Afternoon) PK - 5 1-'R • NF.A l1Y: Oh my! That is only ft dron in the bucket. MP., CROS:RIF.: That was for going around the Province and checking all Fovernment leased soace because it was found that iovernment in a number of insta~ces, particularlv in connection with liquor stores and the Philir Place down here,were paying rent for space that did not exist. MR, NF.ARY: How about the Viking Building? MR. CRO~BIE: I do not know anythin~ about the Viking Building. He can go to the Viking Building, if he wants to. The Viking Building has nothing to do with me.

My name is "Crosbie" not "Viking". MR. NEARY: How naive does the honourable think we are? MR. CROSBI~: · Can I g6 on and answer that question? MR. NEARY: MR. CROSRIF.: MR, NEARY: Yes, boy go .ahead! Carry on. Mr. Chairman, protect me please. Give us the other payoffs. P-1lt, CROSBIE: That was $8,112 - Listen to the honourable gentleman. They are in a frenzy over there. What friends do the honourable gentleman have that he wants to measure the lease premises with? MR, NEARY: ltell give us the other rip-off. Giv, us the other political secrets. MR. CROSBIE: I am r,oing to come to some real j im dandies now.

I have one I am holding back to give you the clue who to growl with. MR, NF.ARY: Take your time now, let us have them. MR, CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island for the nth time ts· directed to the rule of parliamentary procedure and courtesy that honourable members speak in this House or Committee ·when they have the floor and other honourable members ar, to be accorded the courtesy of silence. 4228

April 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) Rll - 1 This is not being observed. It is beinr, flaunted by the honourable nenher. ~•lhether or not this rulinr: from the Chair will affect him or not. we t,rfll find out. t sui>,rest that the honourable meJT1ber has his oryportunity to speak, There is no lfriit on debate in estinates with the exception of the seventy-five limit, We have some sixty -hours to ~o. I sup,r,est the honourable member has plenty of ti~e to make his points. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I humbly b9w to your ruling, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman's humility is really exciting. Mr.

Chairman; 'there was an amount of $2.300 tiaid to Kates, ,, Peat, Marwfck and Company for services rendered on the government _ pensions plans from Octol>er l, 1972 to Movember 30, 1972. This was an actuarial s;udy on the government pension plan. / There was a silver-plated caribou presented to Lord Taylor on behalf of the ~overnment - AN HONOURABLE MEt-IBER: Row much? How much? MR. CROSBIE: On his retirement. The honourable member wants to know how t!IUch that is. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A beautiful caribou. MR. CROSBIE: $267.50.

A silver-plated aaribou is not too good fo~ his lordship after his years of service to this Province. There was an oil painting presented to his lordship on his retirement, MR. !'IBARY: How much? MR. CROSBIE: $600.00. MR. NEARY: Who did it? MR. CROSBIE: It was painted by - MR. NEARY: Christopher Pratt, no MR. CROSBIE: No, Stephen Neary, MR. NEARY: No it was not. MR. CROSBIE: Is that irrelevant? MR. NEARY~ Oh no, it was not, doubt, MR. CROSBIE: It was painted by Stephen Neary. Yes. 4229

April 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBF.R: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: It was painted by whom? MR. CROSBIE: Jly some other baboon. I do not know who painted it, It was purchased from the gallery. MR. NEARY: Christopher Pratt, no doubt. MR. CROSBIE: I do not know who painted it. Ai.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. !iEARY: Who? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. CROSBIE: Then GaRder Avia-tion, Oh! Harold Goodridge, Harold Goodridge,wss·it? ,. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: I never saw it. ,, / Gander Aviation Limited were paid $7,269.72 for emergency air-lift of food stuffs from Gander to Fogo Island during the ice blockade in the winter and sprinp. of 1973. That is the kind of thing the vote is used for that comes up unexpectedly. MR. NEARY: That is good. MR. CROSBIE: Oh! Wait now. Here is one that the honourable gentleman will be interested in. Legrows Travel Agency, $2,507.20, that is travelling expenses. MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NF.ARY: MR, CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. C~: MR. NEARY: For what? 'No, never mind now. For what?

Now, the next one is Newf.Qundland and Labrador - What was it? Trayel Agency for what? For travelling expenses. For whom? MR. CROSBIE: Now, that is not pertinent. Newfoundland and Labrador Air Transport Limited - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, - MR. CRO~BIE: Does he insist on having this information? 4230

April 25, 1971+. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) MR. NEARY: Yes, give it to us, hoy. MR. CROSBIE: That was for John Nolan. _ ... __ .. __ _ ~n;,. ~TT':ARV: For what? ~IR. CRf"l~TitF.: John Nolan. He took a trip to Gemany , MR. CROSnIE: $2,500.00 and since the honourable gentleman has RH - 3 insisted, it is $2,507.20, travel expenses to the account of Mr. John Nolan when he was Minister of Economic Develo _p1T1.ent •. The expenses were incurred in August and·September, 1971 but the bills were not submitted f~r payment until this year, So we have even ,,, looked aft'er - MR. NF..ARY: Is it paid? - MR. CROSBlp: Oh!

It is paid now, yes. It was a trip to Germany or something. MR. NF.ARY: fiscal year? When was it paid, in the last fiscal year or in this MR. CROSBIE: No, in this one just ended, MR. NEARY: No, well I want to know what they ~re going to spend it on this year. MR. CROSBIE: Oh! But I thought the honourable member asked me for a breakdown on what was spent - J-fR. !ITEARY: That is right. I want a breakdown. Mr. Chairma;,_ • - 'MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, how can I break down MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister is obviously, Sir, trying to mislead the House. I asked for a breakdown. AN HO~OURABLF.

MEMBER: I would give up. MR. NEARY: I asked for a breakdown of the 1974-75 fiscal year under miscellaneous 06-04, Sir, "other",· $145,000,and what the minister is ~iving me, Sir, is what was paid out in the last fiscal year. MR. CHAIRMAN (Star,g) : I think both honourable gentleman are some- what misguidin~ on this matter. We should be discussin~ 406-01-03 4231

April 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) RH.:.. 4 which has not been passed yet. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the amount asked for this year, it says "other" but it iA really continrencies at $145,000. Now we do not know, Mr: Chairman, exactly what it is ~oing to be used for this year. It is for contin~encies. Other unusual things miRht turn up. There may be more bills turn up from John Nolan or St~ve Neary or some­ body who travelled before we took over and have to be paid,b~cause we are gentlemen. we observe the obl;f.gations of our predecessors.

There may have to be other air lifts 8f supplies or there may .have to be other studies done'that we do not know about now. So I can go on and give the honourable member a few examples from last year. . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • MR. CROSBIE: The second instalment of the J .W. Pickersgill Fellowsh1°-p is $2,000. That goes to John Frecker,under

an act of the House here. Be is a brillant young fellow doing his doctorate at Queen's University in political seience. He was awarded a Pickersgill fellowship and that is the second installment of it. There is $119,88- leather covered In Memoriam Register in honour of the late Rt. Hon. Louis St. Laurent. So this is the kind of thing that it is spent on. Burke's Jewelers, no, we will skip that one. Silver service and tray, it went to Lord Taylor- AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: On his retirement, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That was $428.25, that was. MR. NEARY: $428,25. MR.

CROSHIE: There was an advertisement placed in the Centennial edition of the Charlottetown Guardian, ~133,40. Then we paid for an airline ticket and hotel accommodations for representatives of Moody's Rating Service from New York. They came here as our r,uests in August, 1973. MR. NEARY: What did they do? MR. CRO!lBIE: We are tryinii: to get - our rating down in New York is 4232

April 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (After~oon) RH - 5 n-A-A MR. ~ARY: Alcholics Anonyt'lous. I feel like _foininp, them now. t-.'e are trying for a raise to A. MR. :-:EARY: After Grand Falls. MR. t:ROSBIE: We brought Moody's down here and toure~ around the Province and entertained them and took them to the Linerboard opening and our rating is still B-A-A. So th~y will not be down again. So that was $577.18.' Then there were, for example, no, I will not give them that ,, one. MR. NEARY: Yes, p.ive us that one, come on, that must be - MR.

CROSBIE: Services rendered with respect to Exon P.ouse arbitration. ✓ We had to be represented on arbitration, That went to Stirling, Ryan, Goodridge, Caule, Gushue and Goodridge, $980.00. MR. NEARY: A good law finn there, my law firm. MR. CROSBIE: Are they the honourable gentleman's law firm? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: In that case, they will not get any more of this stuff. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are all too tied up to handle them. MR, NEARY: I have them all tied up now. MR. CROSBIE: No wonder he got the biggest law firm in town, It will take all twelve of them to handle him. $980.00. Oh! Here is one!

Here is one that will please the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NF.ARY: LeGrow's Travel. J'of.R. CROSBIE: this! Now just listen to this. Now hear this! Now hear A.~ HO~OURABLE ~BER: Ring the bell now. MR, CROSBIE: Fire insurance premium for various mortgage properties of Reids Products Limited of Bide Arm to protect mortgage held by the govarnment, $7,955.45. MR. m;ARY: Who got the policy? 4233

April 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) RH - 6 MR. CRO~BIE: It does not• say here who got the policy. MR. NEARY: Find out. 'MR. CROSBIE: Pastor Booth will be able to tell him. Ask the Leader of the Opposition to ask him. MR. NF.ARY: gallery, The honourable gentleman just walked into the public Ai~ HONOURADLE MEMBER: Probably Mutual Life - MR. CROSBIE: Now here is another on~ that is going to please the member from Bell Island. He is going, to get ecstatic.- MR. NEARY: LeGrow's'Travel? ,, MR. CROSBIE': What? , MR. NEARY: It is not LeCrow's Travel. MR. CROSBIE: No, no, not LeGrow's Travel.

This is a grant account of the Bell Island, Portugal Cove ferry service - MR. NEARY: Ha! on MR. CROSBIE: Paid for the period from September 10 to October 7 on the magnificent presentation that Mr. Hickey, the Minister for Transportation,made to the cabinet and the treasury board. Our hard hearts cracked and money poured out to attempt to improve the ferry service, $10,609.42. That is the Hickey amount. AN.HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: either. The honourable gentleman had not thanked him publicly MR. NEARY: Waste of money. MR.

CROSBIP.: Brinks of Canada;who take money from the Motor Registration Division of the Department of Finance, $286.00 •. Oh! The honourable gentleman will be interested in this. Curtis, Dawe Fagan, Mahoney, Russel, Bo~ell and Althouse, some small accounts they had for some of the government industries, Hanning Electric, Atlantic Glove, Superior Rubber, A. Adler of Canada Limited. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: This is a succeH story. 4234

April 25, 1971•• Tape 1303 (Afternoon) RR..: 7 MR. CROSBIEr That is a magnificent success, These are some of the corpses left over .- ~IR NEARY: l!ow much? How much? ~-!R. CROSBIE: From the early successes of the Economic Development Programme. ~m.. 'NEARY: How much? ----- MR. CROSBIE: $130.00. MR. NEARY: $130.00. MR. CROSBIE: $130.00 !-m.. NEARY: My God! 'That would not buy a stamp for Les. $130.00. ,, MR. CROSBIE: To help him out in his retirement. Now, let us see. 'Oh! Here is one, No, I had better not give that. ,, MR. NEARY: Yes, let us have it, boy, Give it to us. MR.

CROSBIE: The Battery, rooms rented during arbitration hearings of the lab and x-ray employees, $219.26. AN HONOURABLE TW.MBER: Inaudible, MR. CROSBIE: StirlinA, Ryan, Goodridge, Caule, Gushue and Goodridge - !-tR. ~tF.ARV: Ah! Ha! MR. CROSJlIE: These in .connection with conciliation hoard and the Western Memorial and the Central Newfoundland Hospitals, $1,270.00. ~m.. NEARY: A good firn. MR. CROSBIE: H. Karl Goldenberg, n.c., fee for arbitration between MAPE, Governl!lent of Newfoundland and Newfoundland Hospital Association, $6,212.50. Mr. Goldenberg is a top-notch man. MR. NEARY: ~r.

Goldenberg is an expensive conciliator. MR. CROSBIE: He has to be compensated when he comes. ~:..~= Ile is pretty expensive. MR. CROSBIE: He is a magnificent man. He charges accordingly. There is nothing wrong with that. I do not wan·t just to be subjected to criticism because I am very strong on Karl Goldenberg. He is a terrific man. 4235

, . Aprii 25, 1974. Tape 1303 (Afternoon) RR - 8 MR. NEARY: How many cfay11 did it t11ke him to do that? ~"R. cr.n~nn:: I think he was here. oh~ I guess three day11 and then there ~ns another time up in MontTeal. MR. l'F..ARY': Not bad, Ov~r $2,000 a day. That is not bad. MR~ CR('.)_!~_l~: He does not charge by the day. He charges by the - MR. NEARY: · That is almost as good ·a11 P.uddester down 1.n .Ju11t1cc J , ,,. / . 4236

April 25, 1974 Tape 1304 IB-1 right now. MR. CROSBIE: I do not know anything about him. Now, Katcs,Peat and Marwick~ services ·are rendered on a group insurance plan - they ~:ere asked to advise on all these proposals and tenders on the group insurance plan - $4,785. The large amount here was a Classificatior Appeals Board. We did not have a subhead for that. We h~ve got .it this year but it had to charged. to "Other" last year. That was $23,441.39, That was salaries for the permanent staff, travelling . expenses and re­ muneration of the chairman and members.

This year it has been charged to a par~icular subhead. There were ~r~vel and accommodation expenses for two federal government personnel_. seconded to classification of pay division. The fed~ral government at our request sent down two classification of pay experts. We reimbursed them their salaries and travelling and so on. That was $5,457.92. Oh boy! AN HONOURABLE HE?-mER: Do not get tired now. MR. CROSBIE: There was the cost of accommodations and long distance telephone calls provided for the Soviet Ambassador and his first secretary in St, John's, January 31 to February 2, 1974, $273. ffil.

NEARY: Where did they call?' Moscow? MR. CROSBIE: I think he called Siberia. For purchase o( automate blue dye for marking tax exempt gasoline and diesel fuel, $11,686.88. That is now covered in an earlier subhead in the department. So, that will show you, Mr. Chairman, some or most of the items that crop up from time to time where there is no particular vote for them and they are paid out of this vote, MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, that was a very interesting exercise indeed and very revealing, Sir.

There are a couple of items there, Sir, that I would like to get some further clarification on, maybe get some documentation if it be possible. First of all, Sir, I might say that Lord Taylor 4237

,, . April 25, 1974 Tape 1304 18-2 certainly got a pretty good send off, He got a silver service, $428.25, He got a painting, $600 and a silver plated caribou, $267.50, · That is $867,50 plua $428,25, $1,295.81, Sir, plus a big, fat pension. There was a special bill put through this House to give ';My Lord" a big, fat pension in addition to these three going away gifts, Why, "~e Lord" must h11Ve needed a epecial aircraft, Sir, to get his presents back to the other side. There is a saying in Newfoundland, Sir, "You come to Newfoundland with the seat out of your pants and you go out of it a millionaire." MR.

CROSBIE: Inaudible MR. NEARY: I Ao not think .it is any harm, Sir, to say that because that is one honourable gentleman that certainly left well~quipped wel; taken care of. I am sure the second hand store owners must have been waiting at the airport for them to arrive to see if they could get in on some of the loot that he was carrying back from Newfoundland. Now, Sir, Gander Aviation: I think that was a justified expenditure. There was an emergency down there last winter trying to get supplies out to some of the islands. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: There is another one in Labrador now.

MR, NEARY: Another one in Labrador, I hope that will be taken care of, MR. ·cROSBIE: It will be taken care of the same way. MR, NEARY: Exon House is probably a justified expenditure. Fire insurance on the Reid property at Bide Arm, $7,000. The minister could not tell us who had that policy. Perhaps I can help. MR. CROSBIE: R.C. Anthony. MR. NEARY: R!~~ Anthony. Well, not to bad. MR. CROSBIE: Keep digging, boys, keep digging. MR, NEARY: Now1 that brings• down to the grant of $10,609.40 for . the Bell Island, Portugal Cove ·ferry service.

Now, Sir, in my opinion that was a classic example of extravagance and waste, the like, Sir, of 4238 - ..

April 25. 1974 · Tape 1304 IB-3 which I hnve never seen in my experience in this honourable House. That was $10,000 down the drain. AN HONOrRABLE ~!E"BER: What is that? The ferry to Bell Island? ~!R. NEARY: No 1 not the ferry to Bell Island, Sir. This $10,000 they wacked out for some foolish notion that they pad. It is not the fault of the Minister of Jransportation and,Communications. I think he was ill-advised. They did not consult with anybody. They did not have any prior consultation with the people of Bell Island. I certainly was not consulted. I think I ~ave a fair knowledge of that transportation_system.

I go back and forth there often enough. I have a fair idea about what is going on. They did not,approach anybody. They just went ahead 1 Sir, foolhardy, stubborn, went ahead and thought they were doi~g a great . thi9g. I do not know who advised them. AH HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr. Vickers from Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Vickers advised the minister and his committee? No, Sir, I do not think. I think that is incorrect and I am sure that if Mr. Vickers and his committee were here that they would deny that because I discussed the matter with him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: All right. Then I retract. MR.

NEARY: That is right, Sir. There was room for improvement on the Bell Island, Portugal Cove service, Sir. There was need for additional trips but the hours, the ungodly hours that they put them on. They put on a trip on Sunday morning, seven o'clock Sunday morning, I think it was, to bring commuters back and for-th or from Bell Island to Portugal Cove to go to work. There was one commuter, Sir, to my knowledge that used to use the Sunday morning trip and that was the nine thirty trip, one commuter only and he died before the seven o'clock trip was implemented.

A,.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: It should have been a six o'clock trip. MR. NEARY: No, the poor fellow would not have made it anyway. He could not hang on long enough. MR. DOODY: No, we were told that there were shift workers at the 4239

April 25, 1974 Tape 1304 hospital there who had to get over, MR, NEARY: Who told the h~nourable member? MR, DOODY: Inaudible, IB-4 MR, NEARY: Well, can the honourable member procuce the documentation? Is there any - MR, DOODY: I do not have it with me. I am only speaki~g on behalf of the minister,from memory. He had a well documented brief supported by petitions from people over there. MR. NEARY: I would like to see the-documentation. I would like ·to have it tabled while we are discussing this item. T~1en they J>U t on another trip, Sir• in the middle of the night when eve;Ybody was in bed, gone to sleep.

They put on another trip. The only ones I think who were using that trip I think were a few teenagers who used to dash over to St, John's to see their ,, girlfriends, two or three. I went down there several t:lllies to see who was using the trip. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The bingo players. MR. NEARY: No, the bingo players got home on the ten past eleven o'clock trip. They are considered to be night owls but they got home ten after ale~en o'clock. It was only a couple of young lovers, Sir, a couple of young fellows in heat who wanted to .come over to St. John's. That• is all that use that trip.

It was a waste o~ money, Sir, a complete waste of money. I think _m.yself that the aperiment was doomed before it a-tarted. It could have been a good thing, Mr. Chairman. It could have been a good thing if only the government and the minister had come down off their high horses and did what the Minister of Transportation and Communications and myself are doing today. We have re-established communications. The Minister of Transportation has mellowed considerably. I would say it is a definite improvement.

I think that nothing but good will come ·out of the recent discussions that he and I have had on behalf of the people of ijell Island in connection with this ferry service. 4240

April 25, 1974 Tape 1304 IB-5 I do not know. Mr. Chairman, but I think this would be a rood time under this heading for me to express my appreciation to the Premier of this province for co-operating in trying to improve this ferry service. I ~hink we should do more of this, Sir. Nothing, as I say, but good will come out of it. In this particular instance there was no communications. It was merely a political device for the administration to try to get a little mileage, to try to upstage the member from Bell Island. Yes, Sir, that is all it was.

It cost almost $11,000 to try to upstage me, Sir, ·-"'l'ha t is what they were up to. , MR. DOODY: He acted in good faith. He was a sincere man, , MR. NEARY: Who acted !n' good faith? MR. DOODY: The honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ' NEARY: Well, then why did he not consult with somebody? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member from Bell Island was not speaking to him then. MR, NEARY: Oh.

Well, my not speaking to the minister cost the taxpayers of this province $10,500, Well, I am certainly glad that I am speaking to him now , otherwise it would cost us a fortune, I would bankrupt the treasury if 1 were·not speaking to him now. The experiment could have been a good one, Mr. Chairman. It could have been good if they had only consulted with the right J:jeople and put on the tri"ps when they were needed. There is .still a need there, Sir.

Now, I understand, Mr, Chairman, that the·Covernment of Canada have written the Premier and the Minister of Transport has written the Premier asking the province to assume the jurisdiction for this ferry service. 4241

April 25, 1974 TaDe 1305 (Afternoon) n- 1 My undautandin,r h thRt the Government of Can11da are no.t Roing to make an issue out of it at this time, They are not ~oing to make an issue but they are tryin~ to buy their way out of this ~ervice. I hone that the administration •rill not fall into a tr•p of tRkin~ over thi~ aervice before a contract is let. l do not thtn~.

Sir, that the minister responsible is ~oin• to b~ so stunned as to ,a11sume the jurisdiction of this service before the Covernment of Canada, the Canadian TranAnort Commission or ·the Water Transport Committee let ~ contract guaranteeinr, an adequate service there that is in the be•t interest of the peopl~ of Bell Island. We do not have it now. Ve anticipate that in the next few weeks that we may Ret this service and get a replace111eftt for th~ _ob•olete ~'Kipawo".

So l hope the government will not be enticed by a few paltry dollars held out by Ottawa, by a carro~ bei,ig held out by Ottawa saying "~ok take over this ervice and we will give you this much money every year." l think they ehould let the contract first and then continue negotiations with the province to take over-the service. Even at that, Mr. Chairman, I thi~k at the end of every year or at leaet every aecond year t~ amount of •ubsidy that is given the province •hould be reviewed annually because of the increaee in the cost • . So, Sir, l would say that thie . $10,000 was ,rasted, down the drain.

It is unfortunata,there is nothing we can do about it now. We cannot get it back. But l hope i~ the future the administration will learn a lesson from thie and not waste any more of the taxpayers aoney~ ·Kr. Goldenberg, Sir, is certainly an expensive conciliato~, $6,212.50, Be apent three days in the nrovince, Mr. Chairman, then·vent back home. Where does he live? In Toronto? AR HON. MEMBER: Montreal. !4R. NEARY: In Montreal. Went back to Montreal and wrote a renort. 7or that we paid $6,212.50. A little bit steep in Jll'/ opinion, Sir. The job could h,ve been just as well done by a Newfoundlander.

We have people in this ~rovince qui~e willing and eager and able to do this kind of work. They may not h,ve the name that l'fr. Goldenberg ha, Sir, but in a lot of 4242

April 25, 1974 Tape 1305 (Afternoon) PK - 2 these casei; all you need is a little collimon· sense. We have · a lot of common sense Newfoundlanders that could have done this joh for ab.out one tenth of the cost. But, no they had to r.o out, the administration had to go out,get the bigiest in Canada 1 They had to get the biggest they could find, the most expensive they could f!nd'and they certainly did when they got ~fr. Goldenberg • I have the greatest respect for Mr. Goldenberg but I do not think that was necessary, Sir. Now, Mr. Chairman, we got ano;her $11,000 in here under the heading - tax.

I think it was for dye the minister called it, dye to test heating oil, colour. They put dye in the heating oil or in the ,, fuel oil, diesel oil,to see if people are using heating oil to operate , their equipment. Is that·what it is? MR. CROSBIF.: That is the new plan. "fR • NEA'R.Y : Or vice versa? Are using diesel fuel to heat their homes. Would this be so? MR. CROSBIE: No. If they are going to use fuel to heat their h0111es they will buy the cheauest stuff which is the heating fuel. They are not going to pay twenty-five cents a gallon extra. MR . NEARY: Well what is the minister objecting to?

Is it construction companies using it or - 'MR. CROSBIE: The honourable member wants me to answer? MR. NEAPY: Yes, I do not know enough about it to discuss it intelligently. Give me the infonintion and· then maybe I will. MR. CROSBIE: I did not realize that by my giving a few of those amounts it was going to get the honourable Member for Bell Island going on a debate.

The new scheme to stop tax avoidance is to dye furnace and stove oil ~ because that kind of oil has the same chemical characteristics as dies~l fuel but they paid twenty-five cents a .gallon tax that the Liberal Government imposed some years ago on diesel fuel but they do not nay any tax - We took off the terrible, terrible, . terrible, i:errihle Liberal tax on hP.~ting fuel, This . we took off. We do no