Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29 (36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 29- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 18, 1999 4.

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P

1413 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 18, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS PR 326 North Upgrading Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ernie Plett, Wilbert Reimer, Mi lton McClinton and others praying that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minis ter of Highways (Mr. Praznik) consider making the upgrading of this

section of road a project in the 19 99-2000 provincial Hig hways budget. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit agai n. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister responsible for Seniors): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the '99-2000 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Seniors Di rectorate. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 27-The Essential Services Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am requesting the unanimous consent of the House to move intr oduction and first reading of a bill to amend The Essential Services Act. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable minis ter have the unanimous consent of the House to move and introduce first reading of a bill? [agreed] Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Education (Mr. McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill 27, The Essential Services Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur les services essentiels ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, on May 13 , 19 99, the Province of Manitoba received correspondence from the mayor of the City of Winnipeg regarding the current status of coll ective bargaining between the city and the Emergency Response Services Employees Associa tion of Winnipeg. I am prepared to table that letter. On May 18 , 19 99, the province was further advised that the ambulance workers have voted in favour of possible strike acti on.

Based on the urgent request from the City of Winnipeg, plus possible strike acti on, plus the fact that there are no essential service agreements in place between the city and ambulance workers, I am seeking leave of the House to introduce for first reading an amendment to The Essential Services Act to include ambulance services of the city of Winnipeg as an essential service. I have copies of the letter from the mayor to table here, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? [agreed] Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honour-

1414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 able members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon sixty-four Grades 2 and 9 students from Victor H.L. Wyatt School under the direction of Mr. Bruce Dunbar. This school is located in the constituency of the Speaker. On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you this afternoon. *

(1335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD City of Winnipeg Paramedics Binding Arbitration Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we just gave leave to deal with the request from the government to deal with the amendment to The Essential Services Act. In the past we have had requests from the city to deal with legis lative changes, one, noticeably, to open a contract in the past that has not been accepted by the government.

We ask the government why they have not considered using The Fi re Departments Arbitration Act as a remedy for this potential dispu te, a matter that allows the matter to be resolved with binding arbitra tion for fire fighters who also carry out essential services. Why would this Legisla ture not contemplate that alternative as a more equitable and workable way for the people of this province and for the workers affected in this dispute? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I encourage the Leader of the Opposition to read the two letters from the mayor of the City of Winnipeg, one dated May 13, just last Thursday, and the other one dated today, May 18, 1999, where the City of Winnipeg very specifically asks for this amendment and this kind of coverage to include the ambulance services within the essential services legisla tion. So we are responding very directly to that request from the mayor and from the Ci ty of Winnipeg.

As well, obviously it is very impor tant to protect the citizens and potential patients, potential users of ambulance service here in the city of Winnipeg for that very imp ortant and very vital health care service. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, The Fir e Depart ments Arbitration Act, which was provided in the public interest to deal with public services that would not be disr upted in the time of a dispu te and the dispu te would be resolved by binding arbitration-many first responders for patients in Winnipeg, these services are provided by the firefighters, and ambulance providers also provide a service to our citizens.

Why, given that The Essential Services Act does not have a way of resolving a dispu te or does not have a remedy, would we not use the tried and tested way on behalf of the public, rather than just using something that has not been tested yet in the province? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there is obviously the opportunity to reach agreement by both parties through collective bargai ning, and we obviously support that process, encourage both parti es to work towards finding an agreement through that very impor tant process.

Having said that, it is my understanding that with the discussions that have taken place, there has been no agreement to an essential services agreement in the event of a strike of ambulance service employees. We have before us now a very specific request from the mayor and the council of the City of Winnipeg to include this impor tant service under essential services. There are a number of services that are included under essential services that provide for the very impor tant health care of all citizens of Manitoba, and in this case it is the impor tant service of ambulance services in the city of Winnipeg.

We are certainly responding both to the request from the City of Winnipeg and from the mayor of the Ci ty of Winnipeg and to the protection of that very impor tant service for the citizens of Winnipeg and Manitoba. Mr. Doer: This Legisla ture and the government opposite agreed to binding arbitra tion for the doctors last year after consid erable acrimony before they reached that stage. We have put in place binding arbitration for police of ficers. This Legisla ture has approved The Labour Relations Act that provides for binding arbitra tion for firefighters in Manitoba.

The binding arbitra tion option allows for this dispu te to be settled without any withdrawal of services, and therefore the public would be protected. Why would this government not consider an amendment that we will put forward as a

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1415 posi tive alternative for the citizens of Winnipeg and for the legi slative process for the province of Manitoba? Mr. Stefanson: Let us look at the history of The Essential Services Act which was introduced back in May of 1996. It was passed in November of 1996 and was originally applicable only to provincial civil servants. Subsequent to that, we had a request from health facilities to be included in the essential services legislation.

That was in June to October of '97, and in April of 1997, again The Essential Services Act was extended to health facilities and Child and Family Services agencies. Again, that legislation passed in June of 1997. So this legislation has been available for organizations to come forward with requests that they felt that the service they are providing is of such a nature that it should be protected within the essential services legisla tion.

The City of Winnipeg has done just that with the two letters that I provided members opposite, the letters of May 13 and May 18, making that very specific request, and we believe in supporting that request and responding to that request. That is what we are doing today. We are certai nly very supportive of protecting that very impor tant health care service, which I hope all members in this House are supportive of doing. One way to do that is to respond to the request from the mayor of the City of Winnipeg and include the ambulance services within The Essential Services Act. *

(1340) Neurologists Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Well, we will work on the government at committee. A new question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). The Premier has been involved in attempting to maintain neurologists and people that work in the neurology program in Manitoba. We have been quite concerned about the neurology program, pursuant to the specialis ts' provisions in the last contract signed by the government. There are five neurology residen ts presently in Manitoba.

I would like to ask the government: how many of these residents will be staying after their residency program in Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Manitoba, I believe, currently has about 18 adult neurologists in the province of Manitoba. Recently four additional neurologists have been recruited. I am certain ly prepared to provide the names to the member opposite. Obviously, this recruitment represents a 20 percent increase in neurologis ts serving the needs of Manitobans, and that certainly shows significa nt, agai n, enhancements in this whole area.

In part, responding to a question from his colleague the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) where he was asking about an issue relative to epil eptologists, agai n, in that parti cular case, two of these new neurologists, Dr. Ahmad and Dr. Hudson will join the team on July 1, 1999. They also specialize in epilepsy, Madam Speaker. So, agai n, that certai nly is showing progress in addressing that very impo rtant area. Mr. Doer: The minis ter did not answer the question. There are five residents now in Manitoba. We have been informed that after June, three residents will be leaving.

Can the min ister confirm this, and what will the impact be on patients? Mr. Stefanson: Again, I have just given the member recent information in terms of the signifi cant progress in terms of the whole issue of recruitment of neurologists. I have outlined for him the current numbers of adult neurologists, the recent addition of four more neurologists. I have indicated the role that two of the new neurologists will play in the whole area of epilepsy, which is an issue that is of concern to all of us and has been raised by his colleague the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid).

So, again, we continue to make significa nt progress in that area of specialty medicine, as we do on a number of fronts in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: The mmtster did not answer the question. We know that the complement has been down in the neurology program. We even

1416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 know with some recruitment they were still below the levels that were stated by the WHA to be, quote, acceptable. My question was: if we have five residents in neurology and three are leaving at the end of June-that is 60 percent of those people-what will the impact be on the patient services requirin g neurology? Why are we losin g so many of them, I think, is a real vital question to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, I have indica ted to the member our current number is 18 adult neurologis ts in the province of Manitoba.

There are four additional neurologists that have been recruited. I have named two of them who are starting on July 1 of 1999. That is a 20 percent increase in neurologists in the province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, we currently have three and a half positions for pediatric neurologi sts, and again there was a recent acquisition there, again with an indivi dual who brings some speci alty in the whole area of epilepsy.

So agai n, Manitoba has never been in a better position regarding pediatric neurology than it is today, so signifi cant progress on all fronts relative to services from neurologists, and again we continue to improve not only in this area but in other areas in terms of recruiting and retaining health care professionals. *

(1345) Neurologists Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, back in November 1997, I wrote to the previous Minis ter of Health about the Joss of neurological services at the Health Sciences Centre and also involving the loss of the only remaining epile ptologist in the province. At that time the government said they were on a recruiting program. Here we are, two years later, and now the minis ter is announcing that we have some new doctors coming into Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Reid: I guess the government thinks a two year wait is a reasonable period of time for these services. I would like to ask the government: if you cannot maintain your own resident doctors in our hospital program in the province of Manitoba, how can you run a neurological program in our hospitals, and how do you know you are not going to be losing these doctors as well some short period down the road? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Health): Again, the member recently asked me about the whole issue of epil eptologists, and he referred at the time to a Dr. Pil lay who had left for the province of Alberta.

I do want to assure him that the team in that entire area that is involved in that impla nt program is still in place at the Health Sciences Centre. Dr. Bria n Schmid t, a neurologi st, has followed all of those patients . The surgeon on the team, Dr. Brownstone, remains at the Health Scien ces Centre and continues to follow those patients as well, and as I indi cated in response to a question from his Leader, there are two new neurologists, Dr. Ahmad and Dr. Hudson, who are joi ning the team on July 1, 1999.

They specialize in epilepsy, which is exactly what is required in this area, and as I responded to his Leader, not only do we currently have 18 adult neurologists, there are four additional neurologists that have been recruited, a 20 percent increase, so again showing significa nt progress in that whole area of retaining and recruiting neurologists in Manitoba. University of Manitoba Neurology Program Accreditation Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Then perhaps can the Minis ter of Health indi cate what will be the eff ect on the accreditation program at the Faculty of Medicine now that three of the five residents are leaving the province of Manitoba? What is going to happen to the accreditation of that particula r program? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, again without necessarily accepting any of the

preamble from the member, based on some past practices in this House, I am certainly prepared to look into that issue further, but again I poin ted out very clearly for members opposite the signifi cant progress in this area of the recruitment of neurologi sts here in our province, a 20 percent increase, not unlike the

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1417 kind of progress we are seeing in other areas whether it be oncologis ts or the recent graduating class for anesthetists here in Manitoba where the majority of them are staying right here in the province of Manitoba, the vast majority of them again. So I tell the member not to worry about any accreditati on. University of Manitoba Neurology Program Accreditation Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in respect to the minis ter's responses, a 20 percent increase when you are below actual levels required is not anything to brag about.

My question to the Minis ter of Health is again a repeat because it is a very, very signifi cant. [interjection] Well, if the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) wants to answer and do something about health care, let him stand up and answer a question on health care. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Kild onan, to pose his question please. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We will welcome a chance to talk about health issues when the Premier screws up the courage to call an election. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1350 ) Mr.

Chomiak: My question to the Premier, who wants to answer, or the Min ister of Health: is the minis ter not concerned if three of the five resident neurologists, who are home-grown, home-trained, are leaving the province, what the eff ect will be on the neurology program at the University ofManitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, agai n, with all due respect to the member opposite, I have answered the majority of that question. We are always interested in this province in keeping the majority of our graduates of our educational facilities here in the province of Manitoba.

We continue to see more and more of them staying right here in Manitoba, whatever faculties they are coming through, for a number of reasons, from reasons like the tremendous job opportunities they have in Manitoba to the quality of life, to all of the factors that make individuals who come through our education facilities want to remain in the province of Manitoba. I have just cited in this House that for the recent graduating class of anesthetists, I am told that vi rtually all of them are staying right here in the province of Manitoba.

I have outlined very clearly for members opposite the significa nt improvement in areas like neurology. In fact, when it comes to the whole area of specialty provisions, Manitoba, on a ratio to our population, we have the fourth highest ra nking in Canada in terms of specialis ts to population of all the provinces in Canada. Again, we stack up very well in keeping specialis ts, just like we do on our ratios when it comes to nurses that I pointed out very clearly from a report from the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

So again, Madam Speaker, we made significa nt progress in the province of Manitoba, not only retaining but recruiting additional neurologists to our province. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health not agree and will he not undertake to review the situation at the University of Manitoba and the neurosurgery program because of this shortage of manpower so that like when we raised the issue of oncologi sts and the government finally responded, like when we raised the issue of anesthestists and the government responded, like when we raised the issue of the neurosurgeons, the government responded, the government- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Chomiak: Will the min ister undertake to return back to this House, as the government was forced to do when we raised those other issues, to ensure that the program is not in jeopardy and the residents in neurology can maintain and stay in Manitoba?

1418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, agai n, I thank the member for Ki ldonan for acknowledging the significa nt progress in the whole area of oncologists, again acknowledging the significa nt progress in the whole area of anesthetists. Again, I am sure he will acknowledge the signifi cant progress in the whole areas of neurology, and I am sure that is one of the many reasons why they have had the wisdom to support our 1999 budget which includes $19 4 million more than last year to provide all of the very impo rtant health care services right across Manitoba.

I am sure that is one of the many reasons that they saw the wisdom to support our budget this year. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I will try again to the Minis ter of Health or the Premier who seems anxious to try to answer some questions.

Will the Minis ter of Health undertake to return back to this House with information about the security, the future and the tenure of those students and those residents who are involved in the neurology program so it can be assured that home-grown, home-trained individu als will not have to, as they have had to do the past 11 years under the dismal Filmon government's control of health care, leave the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, I have already indi cated to the member that we continue to do all kinds of things to keep the graduates of our educational facili ties here in the province of Manitoba, not only in the area of health care but in all types of educational faculties and facili ties right across the province of Manitoba. I have outlined very clearly to him the progress we are making in the whole area of attracting neurologi sts to the province of Manitoba.

He himself, while he likes to sit there and try to take some credit for it, acknowledges the signi ficant progress in areas like oncology, like anesthetists. I hope that he can certainly acknowledge the significa nt progress here in the whole area of neurologists, that we continue to make progress in attracting and retaining specialists. Within Canada, we continue to have one of the best ratios in all of Canada in keepin g specialis ts here in the province ofManitoba. *

(1355) Government Loan Information Release Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Industry and Trade. Madam Speaker, quite often government will give out or loan out monies in expectation that those loans in fact be paid back. There is somewhat of a strange occurrence with the Estimates, which we made reference to, where the government has given out a $2-million loan or made a $2-million loan commi tment of which $1. 6 million of that has already been given to the company. Yet, today, we still do not know who or what company that $1 .6 million is being sent to.

My question to the minis ter is: is he prepared to share with Manitobans where those tax dollars are in fact going? Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As I explained to the member in Estimates, in the process, quite often when negotia tions are completed, before we make an ann ouncement, we always try and get an agreement between us and the company or the business that we are doing business with for an agreed-upon announcement.

Sometimes these companies prefer to delay the announce ment or defer it to a certain period of time to make arrangements with their employees, make arrangements with the other companies that they are doing business with. I advised the member during the Estimates process that, upon completion of the negotia tions, we would be proud to make the announcement. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given that the election has in fact been put off, my question to the minis ter is: is the minis ter trying to tell us then it has nothing to do with the government, that the only reason why Manitobans do not have a right to know is because the company does not want Manitobans to know that they are in fact receiving the money? So it is the

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1419 company; it has nothing to do with this government. Mr. Tweed: I would like to thank the member for Inkster for making the announcements in regard to the election dates, but perhaps he knows something I do not. I can tell the member again that we are negotiating with the company, as we do with all of them. because of certain formalities that we like to go through and respect with doing business with the companies and the province. I advise the member again that upon completion of these negotiati ons, an announcement will be made. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Industry and Trade then tell this House: how often does this government give out $1. 6 million of a loan and not feel any obligation to tell Manitobans where those tax dollars are in fact going? How often has this occurred, or is this just a one-time thing? Mr. Tweed: I would like to just correct the member for Inkster. We do not give out money. We loan out money with a return on the investment. As I said in Estimates, our success rate to date has been very good. We have seen a lot of new jobs and a lot of new industries brought to the province.

Again, I will just advise the member that when negotia tions are completed, I would be happy to inform him. Flin Flon General Hospital Special Care Unit Closure Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): My questions are for the Minister of Health. This past weekend, the special care unit at the Flin Flon General Hospital was shut down. The hospital was forced to send patients by air ambulance to The Pas. Could the minister tell residents of the city of Flin Flon and surrounding region why the special care unit was shut down and when we can expect to see it reopened? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am certainly prepared to look into that issue with the regional health authority and with the individual facility as to what led to those kinds of decisions and to report back to the member. Patient Air Transportation Costs Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): To the same minister: does the minister perhaps know how much it would cost then to send one patient by air from Flin Flon to The Pas hospital ? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am certainly prepared to look into those kinds of issues.

I am in Estima tes; I have been the last few days. I am back in, I believe, again this afternoon with the member for Ki ldonan (Mr. Chomiak), so I am certainly prepared to look into that specific financial request. But I think, for all of us, the issue that is first and foremost is patient care and patient safety. That is what drives all of our decisions. In terms of the specific request that the member for Flin Flon asks about, I am certainly prepared to get back to him or to return with informati on during the Estimates process. *

(1400) User Fees Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Simila rly, could the minister then also find out and report back to me or to the House whether or not those patients being flown from Flin Flon to The Pas are being charged the $50 Filmon user fee? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am certainly prepared to look into all of the financial impacts in terms of the overall cost of that service that the member is referring to and to provide him all of the details and whether or not there is any contribution required from the individuals.

But, again, I remind the member for Flin Flon that the most impo rtant issue is providing the health care services that are needed when they are needed. That is certainly something that we are committed to right throughout the province of Manitoba. That is why we have taken a number of initiati ves to not only provide the services

1420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 here in the city of Winnipeg but also to provide them right across Manitoba in all of the other communities. I will certai nly get back to the member with specifics related to the question that he asked. Club Regent Hotel Construction Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, today Manitobans learned in the media that we are now in the hotel business, and in fact the Lotteries Commission will be building a new hotel next to Club Regent.

My question for the Minis ter responsible for Manitoba Lotteries is: how much are Manitobans going to pay for their new hotel, and how are we going to finance this new project? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, it always amazes me when I hear the tone of the member opposite with respect to these issues because there are certai nly two sides to the gambling issue, and like all issues there are pros and cons to it.

One of the pros to our province has been the increase in tour buses, et cetera, coming from outside our jurisdiction, bringing people into our province to spend dollars as part of the increase in our tourism trade. This hotel project is certainly part of that development of the facility. It is part of that parti cular development; it is financed, part of it is not costing the taxpayer money. In fact, if anything, it is bringing revenue into this province which we need for things like health care. Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minis ter of Lotteries and past Health minis ter: why is this government building a hotel now-and I am sure that it will be built very rapidly -when it has not built the personal care homes it promised five years ago? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member knows full well that the operation of the Lotteries Commission, the construction of the casinos, any relationship with the hotel is not coming from public money, is not coming from taxpayers' money, and in no way affects the budget operati ons.

In fact, the profits from the operation of our lotteri es contribute to the general revenue of this province. For her to come up in this House for the umpteenth time to try to imply that somehow a choice is made on scarce taxpayers' dollars of building a companion hotel to the casinos or personal care homes is just absolutely wrong. Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Standing Committee Review Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minis ter if he is prepared to call the committee where the public can have a full discussion of the policies of Manitoba Lotteries which puts lott eries and hotels and casinos before health care. When is the committee going to meet? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Lotteries has provided, over a number of governments, a source of revenue for a variety of operations and activities in our province, and today a significa nt portion of those lottery dollars go into general revenue and is used for health care, and now today we hear members of the New Democratic Party saying we should not have that revenue. How many patients would they deny care if they were ever in power to bring about that kind of course of action? Rescom Ventures Inc. Government Contract Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in November of 1997, the government awarded a contract worth $260,000 to Rescom Interactive, a subsidia ry of Rescom Ventures, to produce a State of Innovation Report for the Economic Innovation and Technology Centre, but by that time, by November of 1997, Rescom's $5-million contract with the Royal Bank was in deep difficulty and had been cancelled roughly the same date that the contract was awarded. The company was already in severe difficulty, severe cash-flow shortage.

Why did the government award a major contract to a company which was already in serious financial difficulty? Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as the

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1421 member knows, companies that we do business with in Manitoba, certainly when we ask for information or we ask for services to be provided, they are usually sent out and asked for proposals from companies that can provide the information and the technology that we need. It is my understanding that Rescom, at that particula r time, fulfilled the needs that we were looking for. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, when the company was already being operated by a manager put there by the minis ter's own Manitoba Capital Fund, when its president had been ousted, why is the company and its president still featured in the 2,000 copies of the little red tool kit that were distributed, or at least were paid for, for $260,000, rendering the tool kit total ly worthless because the company was bankrupt? Mr. Tweed: Madam Speaker, as I mentioned earlier and we have discussed in the Estimates, when you look at risk capital, when you look at firms that are interested in taking

part in some of the risk capital that is out there, I would like to make the honourable member aware that these firms create jobs at a 23 percent annual rate, which is very many more times higher than an average general business community. I would like to advise the member that the booklet that was put out was not to highl ight companies that have succeeded or have not succeeded but to just show to the community out there that the government of Manitoba is interested and caring and would look at all companies that are willing to make risk capital investments in the province. Mr.

Sale: Will the minis ter not acknowledge that by highl ighting an unsuccessful company that was belly up when he highlig hted it, he wasted $250,000? This report is totally worthless because, basically, you cannot use it. The company is belly up, $2 million down the drain in Manitoba capital, $250,000 in contracts, all wasted. Mr. Tweed: While I total ly disa gree with the member opposite's comments, in the sense that we as a province, we are here to promote the risk capital investment in the province that we need.

I would like to point out to the member opposite that during the previous adminis tration, when they were involved in risk capital financing, they had to write off just under 70 percent of the loans that the government of the day put out, and I would gladly compare our record in this province to the previous admini stration. Rescom Ventures Inc. Government Contract Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I must admit, on this side of the House when we see any kind of government contract being let, as we have seen in so many cases, we expect either to see Cubby Barrett or some other major contributor to the Conservative Party. In fact, in this particula r case, the presiden t of this near bankrupt company that received a quarter of a million dollars just coincid entally happened to donate over $5 ,000 to the Conservative Party over the last number of years.

I am wondering if the Premier can indi cate whether indeed this is another example of this government giv ing money to its friends, in this case money-$250,000-that was to be lost by the people of Manitoba because of this government's actions. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we have had so many examples under New Democrats of them throwing money down the toilet at every opportunity-MTX over $30 million. In the words of the now Leader of the New Democratic Party when he was president of MGEU, they spent $200 million putting signs up along the roadways on the Jobs Fund.

None of it resulted in any jobs that are here in the province today; $200 million they threw away. In addition to that, they came up with their version of a venture capital fund in which not one company ever put any money back, ever paid any money back into the province of Manitoba. All failed, every single one of them throughout the '80s. There were mil lions and mill ions of dollars. Not one succeeded. That is the kind of record they had. I would think the member for Thompson would be embarrassed to even ask such a question. * (1410 )

1422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 Mr. Ashton: I am wondering if the Premier, instead of practising to be Leader of the Opposition again and living in the 1980s, mig ht answer the question: when is he going to refer this to his ethics chair who just happens to be the minis ter who authorized this $250,000 boondoggle. Mr. Filmon : I can understand why the member opposite turns red and gets embarrassed every time he has to ask those silly questions.

The fact of the matter is no government in the history of this province embarrassed this province more than the Pawley-Doer adminis tration did for its boondoggles, and that is exactly what they stand for, is boondoggles. The member for Thompson is the king of boondoggles. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, as a final supplementary, I want to ask the mi nister if this is the legacy of the Lyon-Filmon years, in this particular case another example of the previous minis ter giving money to Tory friends, money that is now completely lost to the people of Manitoba, something the Premier does not even have the concern to even answer the question about. That is how arrogant and out of touch this government is after II years. Mr.

Filmon: In addition to the $200 million on the Jobs Fund, in addition to the $30 million at MTX, in addition to the $28-million bridge to nowhere, there was, of course, the over $30 million that they threw down the toilet. Point of Order Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): On a poin t of order, Madam Speaker, it was just several weeks ago that this Premier stood up and apologized for the worst scandal in the history of the province since the Rodmond Roblin scandal of I9I9. I cite Beauchesne's, and I lis tened very carefully to the previous question of the member for Thompson.

He asked specifically if the Premier would refer the matter to his newly created ethics person, and the Premier did not answer. The member for Thompson again asked the Premier a specific question, and the Premier, who is so defensive, who is so unable to answer questions, refused to answer the question. I ask you to ask the Premier, either answer the question or go back and rewrite his memoirs about the I980s where he seems to be living. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able Fir st Min ister, on the same poim of order. Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite is very embarrassed these days and very sensitive to being reminded of all the issues that they absolutely fouled up when they were in government in this province in the '80s. They do not like to be reminded of it because it is terribly embarrassing, but Manitobans remember each and every one of these insta nces, and they know why they keep those incompe tents on that side of the House. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Kild onan did not have a point order. Brandon Regional Health Centre Replacement Equipment Budget Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Mi nister of Health, and I would like to read a brief quotation from the chairman of the regional health authority in Brandon. It was in today's Brandon Sun, and the quotation is: our replacement equipment budget last year and this year is only about a half a million dollars, and it really should be over a million annually. So when you consider that we had a couple of years when it was $I 00,000, we had two years when it was nothing, well, the equipment situation was so bad, our replacement equipment budget was so low that everything was destitute.

That is the quotation from the government-appointed chair of the regional health authority. Madam Speaker: Question. Mr. L. Evans: My question to the minis ter is: if this government is so committed to quality health care, why has it denied the Brandon general hospital the funding necessary over the years to replace essential outdated medical equipment? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I had a chance to meet with the chair of the Brandon Regional Health Authority just last week, and I can certai nly indica te they are very pleased.

They are very pleased with the level of support that they receive from our government.

May I8, I999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA I423 We have been in Estimates, and I outlined for the member for Brandon East some $65 million in capital projects that are being spent basically on the Brandon Regional Health Centre, approxima tely a $40-million improve ment in their clinical services and building services, $4.4 million on a 25-bed adult acute psychia tric unit, $3.2 million on the Westman Child and Adolescent Treatment Centre. I could go on and on. I provided that for the member for Brandon East.

I outlined all of these in great detai l for him, and I am certainly prepared to do it agai n, to outline all of the projects totalling approxima tely $65 million dedicated to the Brandon Regional Health Centre to continue to improve the quality of care and the services not only in Brandon but in that entire region of our province. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I took under advi sement on April 28 a point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) respecting words spoken in debate by the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale).

The words in question were: "You know, if he were a little more forthright with the truth." The Minister of Education asked that the words be withdrawn . have reviewed Hansard and also Beauchesne's Citati on 486.(1) respecting unparliamen tary language which reads in part: "It is impossible to lay down any specific rules in regard to injurious reflections uttered in debate against particula r Members . . . much depends upon the tone and manner, and intention, of the person speaking." I would say that, strictly speaking, there was not a point of order in the matter rai sed on April 28, but I would encourage the honourable member for Crescentwood to be judicious in his choice of words.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Personal Income Taxes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): With yesterday's passage of Bill 22, Manitobans will see the results of lower provincial taxes beginning July I. Reducing provincial income tax while increasing spending on priority programs was a major part of our recent budget. By keeping our taxes competitive, we are continuing to make Manitoba an attractive location for investment and job creation.

With the passage of Bill 22, Manitoba's personal income tax rate will be cut by three full percentage points by January 2000, saving Manitobans some $70 million this year and $II2 million in the year 2000. The changes will be reflected on pay cheques starting July I, and I know that Manitobans will certainly apprecia te this. Our government believes the way to achieve a strong economy is to provide responsible leadership, remove barriers to economic growth, keep taxes competitive, and look for strategic opportuniti es which build upon the province's natural strength.

Balanced budgets, lower taxes and debt repayment all stimula te the economy by making the province more attracti ve to business. Our government will continue to look at ways to keep the province's taxes competitive while ensuring sufficient revenue to support impor tant programs. Our government knows that lower taxes create jobs and provide the economic growth that supports our province. We also know that is what Manitobans want from their government. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1420) Youth News Network Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I would like to say a couple of words about an educational issue in this province that needs some strong leadership but is not getting it from this minister. Madam Speaker, the Athena Educat ional Partners are encouraging schools in our province to sign agreements in which they show the Youth News Network to students in our high schools. What this does simply is increase the amount of time our students watch commercials. This is the same government who, on the one hand, wants to increase the amount of time that

1424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 students watch commercials, who wants to also decrease the amount of time that students spend in phys ed and decrease the amount of time that students spend in Canadian history. Madam Speaker, let us be clear what this means for students. The students are a captive audience for commercials and this company's idea of what is impor tant in the news. That is it. Where is the leadership on this issue from our minis ter? Madam Speaker, three provinces have had the good common sense to say no to this company's proposal.

This minis ter gave us the lame answer in Question Period that he did not want to dictate to trustees. Well, I would suggest to this minis ter that maybe he should talk to his party's candida te in the Springfield constituency, who is also the chair of the River East School Division, and tell him that Manitobans do not want this for their students, tell him that this is wrong to subject our captive students to these commercials and not sell students against the parents' wishes. Thank you. Crime Prevention Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): I would like to take a few moments to recognize the efforts of local police forces as they combat crime in southern Manitoba. The Pembina Valley and Red River Valley RCMP detachments, along with the Morden, Winkler and Altona police services, have been busy investigating a number of business break-ins in the region. Since January 1999, the police services had received several reports of business break, enter and thefts, including six cases where safes were attacked. The total loss to area business from theft, vandalism and wilful damage was estimated at approximately $70,000.

The local police forces knew the imp ortance of dealing with these cases quickly. A joint task force was established consisting of three RCMP officers and one member of the Morden police service. I am pleased to report that the task force has already cleared 23 of these cases and laid 46 criminal charges. Their ongoing investigation may result in additional charges being laid. This project stands as a fine example of how groups can work together to build safer, healthier communities. Partnerships between different police agencies, citizen groups and government are proving effective in preventing crime.

It is impor tant that we acknowledge and support the innovation and commitment of the many Manitobans who actively work in their communities to increase safety and prevent crime. Grain Transportation Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Last week we learned that federal Minis ter Collen ette has appointed Arthur Kruger to make changes to the grain handling system based on the report put forward by Justice Estey. This report is basically the wishes of the grain companies and the railways, and the wishes of the majority of farmers are being ignored.

If this is implem ented, we will see that farmers' wishes are completely being ignored. We will see the rate cap removed, we will see the role of the Canadian Wheat Board diminis hed, and this will pave the way for massive branch line abandonment across Canada. For a fair process to take place, we should have a grain freight costing review done. This was a request that was made of the federal government. The federal government rejected that request despite the fact that all farm organiza tions have been calling for it.

We called on this government to do a pricing review for Manitoba with the hope that other provinces would get on the bandwagon with us, but this Conservative government has also refused to take those steps to have the costing review done so that farmers could be treated fairly in this whole process, because it is our understanding that CN and CP are having a great increase in their returns. Over $200 million is being drained out of the farming economy, and this should go back to the communities.

This review is taking place during the farmers' busiest season, and we must ensure that farmers have a fair say in this process and that they are represented. I would hope that this government will ensure that Manitoba farmers have a say and ensure that farmers do not lose all

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1425 that they stand to lose if the Estey report is implemented. Property Taxes Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): The member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and I have had the opportunity to talk about an issue that has been somewhat frustrating. We talked about it the other day while we were in committee, that being the issue of property tax. We do feel that the government has not gauged what the public opinion really is on this very impor tant issue. Therefore, I know for me and the member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski), we are going to do what we can to enlig hten the current government as to what we believe many, in particula r Winnipeg gers, and ultimately Manitobans, want to see, and that is more attention given to the issue of property tax. It is something in which no doubt we will be working over the next little while on trying to get a better gauge. Once we get that gauge, we will be sure to pass on the information to the Minis ter of Fin ance (Mr. Gille shammer). ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think if you would canvass the House, you should find leave to call for The Essential Services Amendment Act for second reading, after which I will then be announcing a standing committee for tomorrow morning to hear that bill. That is part of the arrangements that House leaders have discussed for the handling of this particula r piece of legislation. The request I received from the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton), was to call a standing committee tomorrow morning to deal with it, for ten o'clock.

I will be doing that following second reading, after which we will be going into Committee of Supply. As well, Madam Speaker, there will be some other announcements with respect to standing committees that we are just in the process of confirming. So if you could please seek leave to call Bill 27. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to call second reading ofBill 27? [agreed] *

(1430) SECOND READINGS Bill 27- The Essential Services Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move (by leave), seconded by the Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 27, The Essential Services Amendment Act (Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur les services essentiels ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I apprecia te the co-operation of the House on this very impor tant issue today because today I am intro ducing an amendment to The Essential Services Act to include the ambulance services of the City of Winnipeg. The request to amend this act to include ambulance services was made by the City of Winnipeg.

The Essential Services Act, as members may recall, was intro duced in 1996 in order to ensure that services essential to Manitobans could continue to be provided in the event of a with drawal of services by government employees. The act was amended in 1997 to include health facili ties and Child and Family Services agencies at the request of not only the health facil ities but representati ves of families, of residents of personal care homes, who were impacted by a 1996 personal care home strike.

As a result of the 1996 health sector strike, it was felt many Manitobans were placed in a vulnerable position because the union did not negotiate an essential service agreement with the personal care home employers that it was stri king. The act at that time put into place a process for the par ties themselves to attempt to conclude an essential service agreement voluntarily. But if an agreement could be reached, the provisions of the legisla tion which provides for a mandatory process where it is desig nating essential services applies. It is my

1426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 understanding that the ambulance employees union and the City of Winn ipeg have not agreed to an essential services agreement in the event of a stri ke of ambulance service employees. I just want to read from the two letters that I received from the mayor of the City of Winnipeg. The first one was dated May 13, 1999, addressed to myself as Minister of Health re collective bargaining between the City of Winnipeg and the Emergency Response Services Employees Association of Winnipeg.

It goes on to say: "Please be advi sed that the City's ambulance workers, represented by the Emergency Response Services Employees Association of Winnipeg, may be in a legal strike position following a strike vote to be taken on May 17, 1999. I am advi sed that these employees are not currently covered by The Essential Services Act and the city has concerns that, in the event of a strike, it will not be able to guarantee the provision of essential services with consequent risk to the population.

Under the circumsta nces, I am requesting that the necessary steps be taken to amend the legislation to cover the provision of ambulance services by the City of Winnipeg. Yours truly, Glen Murray, Mayor." Also, on May 18, I received a follow-up letter-that is today, Madam Speaker-again to myself from Mayor Glen Murray, the City of Winnipeg, agai n the same topic, the collective bargai ning between the City of Winnipeg and the Emergency Response Services Employees Associa tion.

It goes on to say: "Please be advi sed that the City's ambulance workers voted to support strike action and are therefore in a legal strike position at this time. In the circum stances, I request that you initiate the necessary acti on to amend The Essentials Services Act to ensure that essential ambulance services provided by the City of Winnipeg are main tained. Please note that we have not been able to achi eve a voluntary agreement on essential services with the Emergency Response Services Employees Associa tion of Winnipeg union.

Yours truly, Glen Murray, Mayor." So, Madam Speaker, the intent of this amendment is to include ambulance services under the scope of the legislation to ensure that these services which are essential to the citizens of Winnipeg and the people of Manitoba are not placed in jeopardy as a result of a strike. This bill adds the City of Winnipeg ambulance services to the definition of employer under the act to ensure that these services also fall within its scope.

So, Madam Speaker, again, I thank members for their co-operati on today on this issue, and I encourage everybody in this House to support this very impor tant piece of legislation. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In addressing the bill, I would point out, Madam Speaker, that on the one hand we have received very short notice on this bill, and, on the other hand, we recognize the public interest that must be dealt with .

I am just going to speak for a moment because I am trying to deal with the merit of the issue before us, because we have already agreed to gi ving leave at first reading, obviously, and second reading and tv proceed with the debate with an understanding on the committee timing, as well. This, of course, is impor tant. There are two princ iples that we have to deal with in this Legisla ture that are enshrined in our laws and in our tradit ions. One is the principle of providing medical services to our citizens .

Citizens who need access to medical services in our view is a very, very impor tant principle that this Legisla ture must deal with. The other impor tant principle is the issue of free collective bargaining as part of a free society. Therefore the issue is very much a dispute between a medical service provided to the public and the way in which that medical service is being dealt with in a dispute. It is very impor tant that we achieve a balance between those two principles and are able to achieve both principles with the solutions we put forward in this Legisla ture.

Madam Speaker, we therefore respectfully believe that the public interest and balance can be better achieved by an alternative that we will be proposing at committee in the form of allowing The Fire persons Arbitration Act-let me quote the exact act, The Fire Departments

May 18 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 27 Arbitrati on Act, I am sorry-to be utilized for purposes of the dispute. First of all, I believe there is an occupational correlation between the ambulance attendants and drivers and the firefighters. In fact, sometimes they perform very similar dutie s in their roles and their functions that they fulfil to the city of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, the m1mster is quoting from the letters from the mayor. The mayor is the head of a government. He is also responsible for management.

There is a balance to resolving disputes between the public interest, which is paramount, the workers and management. That is why in the past, to resolve similar disputes, this Legisla ture under The Labour Relations Act has provided for an arbitration system that is binding on the parties, hopefully not to be used but ra ther as a way in which the parti es will agree at the collective bargaining table to a solution that will allow us to ensure that services are provided to the public.

Our solution, Madam Speaker, actually guarantees more of the workers will be providing services to the public than the kind of vague notions contained within The Essential Services Act. The proposal that we are putting forward as an alternative, The Fire Departments Arbitration Act, is also a system we used for police officers and school teachers here in Manito ba. I would suggest very strongly to the minister, the advantage of this proposal that we are making is obviously better for the public and more balanced between the workers and management. Why is it more balanced?

Because The Essential Services Act of Manitoba does not provide a remedy. It does not provide a way of resolving a dispute. It only provides the

definitions of who is covered and who is not. You know, this government before, a couple of years ago, when former Mayor Thompson requested that a former collective agreement be overturned-and I think many councillors disagr eed, including Councillors Vandal and Murray, at the time-this Legisla ture said no, we are not going to break that balance by overturning a collective agreement negotiated under The Labour Relations Act, even though they did so for their own employees. So we think our solution: Does it meet the test of providing medical services to the public? Yes.

Does it meet the test of allowing the city government to maintain the services to the public? Yes. Does it allow a way in which the ambulance employees can get an arbitrated and fair settlement? Yes. Has it been tried and true in the province of Manitoba over decades of experience? Yes. So we suggest to the minister opposite that this Legis lature is co-operating in a serious situa tion, but-Madam Speaker, I am closing now-1 just wanted the minister to hear my arguments.

You know, I think that just because the city requests something, and I know the member opposite was a former deputy mayor-sometimes this Legisla ture can hear what the city is saying but also use their own experience to apply a more balanced solution. We have to, in this province, represent the public interests, the management interests , and the workers' interests, and we suggest The Fire Departments Arbitration Act will do all three in the most reasonable way. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and we would ask the minister to pay attention to that proposal and give it some attention here in Manitoba.

Thank you. * (1 440) Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Yes, I will just say a few words because I do not want to delay this proceeding to committee, but it is a bill and an issue that I have interest in. I was on the Winnipeg police force when we still had the right to strike, and I remember my concern about going to strike in one year. I remember walking over from the Concert Hall to the chamber of City Council and singing Solida rity Forever. I cannot believe I actually did that, but I did.

But I remember that at that time when the Winnipeg Police Service bargained to give up its right to stri ke, and this was something that both the union and the employer wanted, and I believe, and people who have longer memories and longer history here, that the firefighters, their union and the city wanted binding arbitra tion. I think what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has suggested here is that we tell

1428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 them they want binding arbitra tion. It think that is a little bit different. I have heard a request from the mayor for essential services. I have not heard anything from the union. I have not received any-[in terjection] well, the Leader of the Opposition says he has heard from the union. That is no surprise to me. That is no surprise. I read Bernard Christophe's union magazine, and I guess the new NDP still has strong ties to the union movement here in Manitoba.

But I am concerned-and I understand that under second reading we are supposed to be talking about the broad principles of the bil l-that if the official opposition is bringing forth an amendment on binding arbitra tion when this Legisla ture has not been asked to do that, as opposed to how it came about in the police service and the fire service, maybe it will not be as strong. The other thing is that I find it confusing that when the Nurses' Union were offered binding arbitration, I did not hear the NDP encouraging the nurses to accept binding arbitration, so I find an inconsi stency in their position.

Now they are telling the ambulance attendants that they should take binding arbitra tion, but I did not hear them telling the nurses to take binding arbitra tion when they were offered that in the last contract. Yes, I think it is very impor tant. I remember the one time when the Winnipeg Police Service took a strike vote, and it looked as if we were going on strike. I was fully prepared to cross the picket line because I said no person in Winnipeg was going to be put at risk because my wallet was not thick enough.

I said I would go on strike on principle, for example, to not allow one-person cruiser cars that I believe would put the citizens and the police officer at risk. The same here, I do not think any ambulance attendant should be putting the citizens of Winnipeg at risk because their pocketbook is not full. So I agree that we need something to keep the ambulance attendants on the street, but we have to do it in a fair way.

I would like to hear from them in committee, whether they want binding arbitra tion, and possibly we will, but no one in Winnipeg should be put at jeopardy because someone's wallet is not thick enough. Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I, first of all, want to thank the government House leader (Mr. Praznik) for contacting me this morning on this matter.

I apprecia te the approach taken by the government House leader because it certainly was crucial in giving us the oppor tunity to discuss this matter and come up with the agreement that we have to deal with this matter today and go into committee tomorrow morning. I want to put on the record, too, that the government House leader (Mr. Praznik) was the first one to make us aware of this. I think, also, the Mi nister of Health (Mr. Stefanson) made our Health critic aware of this.

I do wish that the City of Winnipeg had, perhaps, given us some notice of this in advance because that mig ht have assisted in what we are essentia lly looking at here, which is looking at dealing with the current situation, and a fairly significa nt request. I do note that the city does make other requests for legisla tive action, which the government does not always agree with, and we are in the position now, as legisla tors, with an impending strike. There is no set time for the strike, but we have a potential strike. We are now sort of having to scramble somewhat, given the cir cumstances.

I think it mig ht have assisted greatly if the city had made us and the oppositi on-and I assume the Liber al Party was not aware of this either -they had perhaps officially made us aware of their request because the letter that I recei ved ! received two letters, pardon me, today. One was dated May 13. I want to put that on the record, but I would note to the city that when it comes to requests such as this, it requires the co operation, if not necessarily agreement, but certai nly requires the co-operation of all three parties in the House.

I would suggest to the city that the next time that, if they have any suggestions, they perhaps do that. That being the case, I also want to stress again that we are pleased the minis ter has agreed to hold the committee hearings tomorrow. We wanted to have some time to consider this bill and some time to develop the alternati ve we are proposing. I want to poin t out, by the way, that we-and I know there was some reaction from at

May 18 , 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1429 least one of the members when we ind icated we had contacted the union. We contacted the union and the city. We contacted both parties to this dispute. I believe that was the appropria te thing to do, even though we were not informed of it. That was essentially to try to obtain a balanced picture of what has happened. I want to stress that that is an impor tant principle, Madam Speaker, and something that we in the New Democratic Party feel strong about.

We are dealing with, as our Leader poin ted out, both health care, something that we are very strongly committed to, and also the collective bargaining process, something we are very strongly committed to. I think at times what is required is assurance that one does consult widely, and then, obviously, as members of the Legisla ture and as parties in this House, we have to make decisions. We have to decide, obviously, the right balance of, in some cases, potentially conflicting prin ciples. What we propose, we believe actually is in keeping with both principles.

Our proposal would ensure the continuation of ambulance services, period. I do know, by the way, that this approach that we are looking at, we did raise this, I know-certainly, the union will speak for itself tomorrow. We have raised it with both sides. We feel this is the appropriate way to proceed. I want to point out the difference of what we are dealing with. If we simply pass the amendment that the government is looking at, what we will essentially do, I believe, is make it far more likely that there will be a fairly immedia te strike situation.

On the one hand, you will have the essential services portion in place; you have a 94 percent strike mandate from the union, and I know that only from what I have read in the paper. You obviously have a major di sagreement between the two parties. I believe the issue was the parity of treating ambulance workers the same way as firefighters and not trying in any way, shape, or form of getting into who is right or who is wrong, because in the collective bargaining process, that is not the point. The collective bargaining process is about keeping people talking, trying to keep a process moving towards resolution.

I would suggest that our proposal is superior to the only other proposal we have before us. I apprecia te what the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) was saying but, you know, essentially we have been asked by the city, and it has been agreed to by the government, to deal with either Essential Services Act or no Essential Services Act amendment. We feel that would not be in the best interests of any of the parties involved. That is why we are trying to come up with an alternative proposal.

I know opposition parti es often are criticized for putting forward proposals that are that we do not put forward proposals. In this case I recognize again, just to reflect on what the member for The Maples is saying, we do not know quite frankly what the reaction of both sides will be in this, but we do not have much choice other than move it now. We have been asked to give leave, that it is a pending strike. It is either The Essential Services amendment proposed by the govern ment or this alternative. That is one of the reasons there has not been this other buildup.

I would actually encourage both sides to the dispu te to look at our proposed amendment. We will be preparing it for tomorrow. I would encourage them publicly to look at that, because we believe this is one possible solution, as I said, not only to the dispu te itself, but possibly a way of avoiding a potential strike situa tion, which will be very difficult for all parties involved and certainly the public. I want to put that on notice that that is the crucial thing that we want to see. *

(1450) I also want to note, Madam Speaker, that I do believe it is impor tant for the government as well to perhaps encourage this discussion, because I think, to a certain extent, as I poin ted out, there is some inconsi stency here. The government on this issue is just saying, yes, we will do what the city wants, but on many other issues completely refusing to do what the city has asked for, including, by the way, and rightly so, the request from the city under the previous mayor to roll back the contract. That was not appropria te. That would have been abuse of the

1430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 legisla tive authority of this Chamber. I would suggest, in this parti cular case, that this is not the best way of proceeding. I realized the city was attempting to negotiate, as was the union, an essential services agreement, and that did not happen.

But to ask, on the eve of a strike mandate, a pending strike, for us to deal in the Legisla ture with a process that normally takes some time I think is an indication that there has been a lack of perhaps some forward thinking somewhere along the way with some of the parti es involved, parti cularly, in this case, perhaps the city itself. That being said, we obviously are dealing with a request. Our view was at least to, not indicating that we necessarily are going to support this bill, but we felt it was appropriate to deal with it today and deal with it forthwith and deal with our alternati ve.

I want to just finish, Madam Speaker, because I think this is an example of where it is impo rtant I think to have an understanding of all sides of the picture. I know our Labour critic will be talking about this in a moment but, you know, I really think this is the very situati on. I just want to put on the record that it is interesting because, on the one hand, we are accused of being the friends of unions, and obviously we are proud of our connection with the labour movement, and of course Glen Murray certainly is well known to members of the New Democrati c Party.

So here is a classic example where we are probably in a better position than anyone to try and think out ways in which not only the individuals but all parti es in this dispu te can be satisfied, because I want to stress again that we are not just concerned that the city and the ambulance drivers reach an agreement, we are concerned obviously about patients and medicare. So in a lot of ways what you need is a balanced approach, a creative approach.

I want to put on the record, by the way, that one of the sad comments here is that this government took out one of the provisions a number of years ago that did provide an alternative, final offer selection, supported, by the way-the member for The Maples, it is before his time -the Liberals. We fought and we did get it delayed somewhat, but we have often argued that we believe strongly in free collective bargaining. We also believe in the right of workers particularly to find alternate solution mechanisms. The police, the firefighters, the teachers have gone that route, and it has worked relatively well.

By the way, nothing takes away from the collective bargai ning provisions that take place. Collective bargaining is quite strongly undertaken in all those parti cular circumstances. The bottom line is that it does not mean you cannot have collective bargaining and potential alternatives to stri kes. In this parti cular case, we have proposed an alternative resolution mechanism. It is consis tent, quite frankly-and I would say this publicly to all parties involved.

We would suggest that there is certainly, and we are not getting into salary disputes, is an equivalence here between firefighters, as :--ve se_e them, and ambulance drivers. We believe 1t makes no sense to treat firefighters and ambulance drivers differently under different acts and in different ways, Madam Speaker. That is why we want this debate, and in committee tomorrow we will be moving an amendment that would specifically bring the ambulance drivers under the same provisions that firefighters are currently under.

We believe it is the best solution, Madam Speaker, and we would strongly urge not only the government to consider this, but the city, the ambulance drivers and other members of the public. We look forward to their presentation tomorrow, and we hope over the next 24 hours there will be some open-mindedness here and that we can come up with a creative solution to what potentially could be very difficult �ircum stances for everyone involved and particularly for the public of Manitoba. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): I am pleased to rise to add my comments on Bill 27, The Essential Services Amendment Act, which the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Stefanson) tabled in this Chamber just before Question Period today. Madam Speaker, I think we need to go back a short period of time ago, back when The

" May 18, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1431 Essential Services Act came into being in this province and the debate that was taking place at that particula r time. I can remember in a com mittee of this Legisla ture one evening when I think we were debating Bill 26 which was an amendment to The Labour Relations Act in this province, the Manitoba Health Authority came before committee and told the then Minister of Labour, who is now Min ister of Justice (Mr.

Toews), that the government should consider implem enting an essential services act in this province that would take away, in effect, the right of employees of this province, who at that time had the right to stri ke, deeming them as part of the essential services of our province. Madam Speaker, the Min ister of Labour at that time then took that understanding, and I know he asked several questions at that time, took it back to his cabinet and caucus, and what do we have the next session?

We had the essential services bill tabled before this Legisla ture, which essentially took away the rights of members of the public who work in the health care field, in particular, but a variety of areas within the health care sector, took away their ability to exercise their rights under the free collective bargai ning process that we accept in this province.

So we knew at that time that the minis ter, who is now Minis ter of Justice, said that there was a better way that he had to look at dealing with lockout or strike situations that would protect, he said, the life and limb and never gave any consid erati on, which was surprising to me at the time, to the process that was currently in place under The Labour Relations Act in this province that would allow for binding arbitra tion, and any minis ter, any person in this Legisla ture, I would hope, would know that The Labour Relations Act does provide for the process of binding arbitra tion, should the minis ter deem it in the best interests of the public.

So, Madam Speaker, we think that at this time the government could have chosen to utilize that parti cular process. I go back to the comments that were made by the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) here a few moments ago when he talked about whether or not the union, in this case representing the paramedics in the city of Winnipeg here, wants indeed to have binding arbitration as part of the process.

Well, I can tell the member for The Maples and his colleague that all it would take would be to pick up the phone and ask members of that particula r union and perhaps some of the city councillors whether or not those two parti es had talked about binding arbitra tion. I can tell the members that, yes, I picked up the phone, I talked to those people, and they did tell me that binding arbitra tion was a recommendation before those negotia tions and that it was the City of Winnipeg, in fact, that rejected that parti cular proposal.

So, Madam Speaker, that binding arbitration process was on the table, and it was the city that rejected the binding arbitra tion process. Yet to the members, all I suggest to you is that all you have to do is pick up the phone and ask them if they want the binding arbitration process as a part of a creative solution to the problem that we have facing us today. I think it is a workable solution. I think that it will allow for some resolu tion of the issues that are in dispu te between the two parties, and I do not mean to get involved in the middle of that particular dispute.

I do not think it is appropria te for me, in my place here today, to be involved in the actual negotiations which should be done at the negotia ting table. I would expect, though, that there would be some fair play and resolution of this matter and that there would be an opportunity to have the parti es come to some kind of an arrangement with respect to this problem that is facing both of them.

I know if you look at The Fi re Departments Arbitration Act that we have currently on the books in the province here, that we believe, as my Leader has already said, that this is one way to implem ent the binding arbitra tion process here in the Ci ty of Winnipeg, that will, we believe, solve the problems that the government has been asked to address by the City of Winnipeg. Now, I look back to the various problems that the City of Winnipeg has encountered in past. They have made suggestions to this government to take certain legislative steps. I know my colleague the member for Thompson

1432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 (Mr. Ashton) referenced the City of Winnipeg and Mayor Thompson wanting to legisla te away a collective agreement that was in force at the time with the civic employees. The government at that time, rightly so, said, no, that they were not going to take that step.

We think that the government, when you get a request from a munici pality in the province, including the City of Winnipeg, you have to look at it in the clear light of day and recognize the courses of action that are available to you, not just jump at a solution that you deem to be the quickest and most expedient to solve the problem, but to look at one that will actually resolve the problem that is outstanding. *

(1500) What you are doing here today is just saying to the people who are in a legal strike position right now, we are taking away your right. There is no solution, no remedy to the problem that is out there with respect to the negotia tions that are ongoing.

All this is going to do is cause it to fester and boil over and not cause-what we want to see is a solution to the problem so that the public is not affected, so that the essential health care services that are provided by the paramedics in our province are continued and that the patients and the people of Winnipeg are not put at risk by the withdrawal of those services. We see binding arbitra tion as a solution to that.

In this legis lation, The Fire Departments Arbitration Act, it is my understanding that there would be notice given by either of the parti es and, having read through this legis lation, that notice would have to be given by October 1 prior to the contract expiring. In that sense, where there would be no agreement by either of the parties, either of the parti es could then by December 31 of that year, three months later, apply in writing to the mini ster and then the minis ter would be in a position to appoint an arbitra tion board.

Now, we know that this legis lation would require about five minor amendments to The Fire Departments Arbitration Act to amend the clauses in there with strict reference to firefighters or firemen, which seems to me not to be gender specific, but you would think that they would have rectified that in the past, but we will leave that one aside for now. In this case, perhaps that would be an amendment you could make at the same time, make it nongender specific and also reference paramedics.

Now, it is interesting to note that the City of Winnipeg, through their actions on the City Council just recently, blended the two departments, the ambulance services in the City of Winnipeg with the fire services department. Well, I am not in a position to pass judgment on whether that is a good or bad thing. I leave that to them. They are another level of govern ment providing that service.

I am not going to second-guess the reasons because I do not have all of the facts for the reasons those decisions were made, but I do know that if you are going to blend those two departments together, it would seem reasonable to put them under the same act, legislation, deeming that to be where the binding arbitra tion would take effect. I would expect that they would have considered that, but I know that since it was on the table and the city rejected it, and I am not sure why they rejected it, but I do know, my understanding is that the council lors rejected it.

The union had put it on the table for binding arbitra tion, and my understanding is that the council rejected it. Now, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) can perhaps do like members on this side did and call the city councillors and call the union members to find out their points of view or perhaps when they come to committee tomorrow morning, ask them questions with respect to binding arbitra tion. But we see that this is a reasonable way to settle the diff erences that the two parti es might have.

Now, we know that there are other essential services that are in this province, not only health care, but we have our police force in the province here, and I know the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) ref erenced that a few moments ago. We also have our teachers who are prevented from striking in the province of Manitoba under The Labour Relations Act, and there has been some talk by teachers in this province about going back to some lim ited right

May 18 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 33 to withdraw their services in this provin ce. This government has chosen not to follow that course of action, and I would think that this government would see that that would be a fair and equitable way of solving this dispu te that we have between the ambulance services, the paramedics in the city of Winnipeg, and the City of Winnipeg civic government.

I think what we need to do is we cannot always just give carte blanche approval to any request that comes before us, and having read through the two letters that were sent by the City of Winnipeg, signed by Mayor Glen Murray, one dated May 13 , relating to collective bargaining between the City of Winnipeg and the Emergency Response Services Employees Associa tion, and another letter addressed May 18 to the Minis ter of Health, both of them to the Minis ter of Health, asking the province to enact essential services legi slation to limit or take away the ability of the employees in this case, their ability to take free collective bargaining action, we think that is the wrong way to go and it would be better served if we had gone to binding arbitrati on.

I think what we as legisla tors need to do, we need to give reasoned consi deration to the request that has come from the City of Winnipeg from the mayor and council members. I imagine the mayor has council support for this, but we need to give reasoned consider ation to that request and to choose the most appropriate course of action that is fair not only to the City of Winnipeg Council but also to the employees who are involved on the other side of this parti cular dispute. We should not just accept at face value, as the member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) appeared-and I do not want to put words in his mouth, but appeared to do when he accepted at face value the request coming from the mayor and council. We think that there is a better way to resolve this dispu te through the binding arbitra tion process, and we suggest to members of this House that the government look at that option very seriously.

It is our understanding that when it goes to committee tomorrow, we will be talking to any members of the public who wish to come out and make a presentation to the commit tee, that those so wishing, we will ask them about options that are available and why they would not have considered those options, perhaps proposing our solutions as well, where we can find a reasonable solution to the problem that is outstanding, and that is through the binding arbitration process.

So with those few words, Madam Speaker, we recognize that it is impor tant to protect the life and limb of vulnerable Manitobans who may require in emergency situations the services of the Winnipeg ambulance service and the employees who provide that service, but we also recognize, too, that there are principles that are involved in this process where we can bring about a reasonable and fair and equitable solution to the problem, not through the imposition of The Essential Services Act but through the binding arbitra tion process that would allow for a resolution of this problem Madam Speaker, we look forward to this bill going through to committee tomorrow mornin g and to having a further debate on this particular piece of legis lation, Bill 27.

Thank you. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I, too, just wanted to put a few words on the record on this bill. In the past, I have had the opportunity to speak on the essential services legislation and would in part at least draw a partial conclusion in the sense of why it is that at different times we have to look at bringing in changes that are necessary to essential services legisla tion.

I would think there would be enough expertise and bureaucrats who would have the know-how to talk about the different types of services that the public needs to see put into place, so that we are not doing it in an ad hoc way. In this particula r case, maybe it is as simple as the City of Winnipeg approaching, when we had the legislation previously, indicating here is the type of services that we would like to see brought into Essential Services and the provincial government itself saying here are the types of services that we believe needs to be brought into Essential Services.

The reason why I say that is because ultimately to bring it up while in the midst of a labour crisis in any sector kind of, I think, does a

1434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18 , 19 99 disservice, that ideally the time to do it is, in fact, well in advance of having to settle some of these labour negotia tions that are out there. But having said that, Madam Speaker, one has to look in terms of what is being requested ofthe government of the day. I was intrigued by the comments made by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). We, too, have placed a call in trying to get more information on this bill because, like the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), we received information today also on it.

I guess there is always political discr etion that has to be used at the different levels of government, but one of the things that I think should be respected is that if you are trying to get things through the provincial Legisla tive Chamber, as a courtesy, opposition parties or all members should be notified as early as possible so that we can carry out, to the best of our abilities, our responsibilities in terms of being able to do the homework that is necessary. The member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) brought up, I thought, an excellent point when he made reference to the fact that the police and the fire departments respectively came to the conclusions within the negotiations to have binding arbitra tion. Well, it would appear that binding arbitra tion was something that was not agreed upon between the city and the ambulance workers. If that is, in fact, the case-and I was a bit confused by the earlier comments from the member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid}-that there was no agreement, I think then we have to look at what our responsibility is as legi slators. * (1510 ) I think it should be very clear, and made very clear, that the first priority is people who are going to be receiving that service. What we should be doing is accommodating what is in the best interests of the users, the patients, the Winnipeg ger or the Manitoban who needs this service.

That was the argument when we brought in the essential services legis lation that these are the people who have to be at the top of our mind in making sure that the services that have to be there are going to be there in some way and to not jeopardize the lives of Manitoba ns. We take that responsibility very seriously. That is the reason why we would like to see this bill ultimately go to commit tee. We agree with the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) and the government House leader (Mr.

Praznik) in terms of having the committee meeting for tomorrow as opposed to today because of notifica tions and potential of presentations. It will be interesting to see what, if any, presentations to the binding arbitra tion argument or potential amendment are going to be brought forward. I would think that, if you have both sides agreeing that binding arbitration is what they would like to see, then I think it would be a responsible thing for us as a committee then to look at passing an amendment of that nature.

But if we do not see that consensus coming from the city, I think then there is a responsibili ty for us to look at The Essential Services as being the answer to resolving this parti cular issue. I myself in the past have argued for binding arbitra tion. I can recall when we had the emergency strike with our doctors. In some cases, in some areas, I think that we need to fight for binding arbitra tion, but it is not necessarily the answer to everything. We had our largest labour di spute, potential di spute, with respect to our nurses. I had understood that in fact they were offered binding arbitra tion.

In this parti cular case, you have the union that saw fit that it was not necessary to have binding arbitra tion, and it worked out well. It worked out well in the sense that we ended up getting Wally Fox-Decent. I am an optimist. I hope that the union and the city will, in fact, be able to address the many different issues that are on the table, but, failing that, we have to do what our responsibilities are.

At the very least we have got, and I have seen both letters from Mayor Glen Murray and respect the fact as the mayor, at least in part, the assumption is that this is in fact what the Ci ty of Winnipeg, City Council wants to see happen. We look forward to seeing what sort of representation is made at the committee level. It will indeed be interesting to see ultima tely on the whole issue of binding arbitra tion what sort of representations will be made on binding

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1435 arbitration, because if in fact, as I say, there is a consensus towards moving in that direction, I would be inclined to suggest to him that that is by far the way to go, but we have to hopefully see that consensus. With those few words, we are quite prepared to see this bill go into committee. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading, Bill 27, The Essential Services Amendment Act; Loi modifia nt la

Loi sur les services essentie ls. Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, a couple of announcements. I would actually call today the Standing Commi ttee on Law Amendments to meet tomorrow at 10 a.m. in a committee room assigned by the Clerk. A notice will go out to members of that committee. I understand that there will be some committee changes by both Whips that will follow my motions.

I would also announce today that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, I believe it is the 25th of May, 1999, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legisla tive Buildi ng to consider the Workers Compensation Board's 1996 and 1997 five-year operating plan; the Annual Reports of the Workers Compensation Board for the years ending December 31, 1996, '97, and '98; and the December 31 , 1996, '97, and '98 reports of the Appeal Commission of the Workers Compensation Board.

Madam Speaker: The Sta nding Committee on Law Amendments will meet tomorrow, May 19, 10 a.m., in a room to be announced by the Clerk's office. The Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet Tuesday next, May 25, 10 a.m., Room 255, to consider matters relating to the Workers Compensati on Board. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the Standing Committee on Law Amendments is being called for the purposes of considering The Essential Services Amendment Act, which received second reading this afternoon.

Madam Speaker: Bill 27 will be considered tomorrow morning in the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I believe the Whips have committee changes, and then I will be moving a motion to move into Commi ttee of Supply. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the member for Ki rkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) for the member for Rossmere (Mr. Toews); the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Tweed); and the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Motion agreed to. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for Wednesday, May 19, 1999, at 10 a.m., be amended as follows: Welli ngton (Ms. Barrett) for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar); Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway); Transcona (Mr. Reid) for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). Motion agreed to. *** Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Justice (Mr. Toews), that this House now resolve itself into a Commi ttee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to.

1436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Commit tee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consider ation of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Trai ning. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 16.1. Admini stration and Fi nance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 46 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen {Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I think the minis ter had a number of things to table. I wondered if we could begin with that, a number of things that he was going to table from yesterday. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, yesterday we talked about students in care of child welfare agencies. I am going to table the Guideline for Registration of Students in Care of Child Welfare Agencies.

This protocol was developed in response to requests from the field so that services and educational programming could be better developed for chi ldren in care. There continues to be ongoing dialogue with Education and Family Services and agencies in school divisions to implement the protocol and have everyone become knowledgeable and skilled in using the protocol to support children. So I am going to table that today. The honourable member asked about the FAST Program, Families and Schools Together. This program is a four-year pilot project that has now completed its second year.

The evaluation process is underway with criteria which include a look at outcome measures for families involved in the program. We look forward to the completed pilot with four years of evaluation data to determine the effectiveness of this model. The FAST Program is a school-based program targeted to child ren between the ages of four and nine, the K to Grade 3 levels, who have been identified as at risk of future social, academic and substance abuse problems. Once those children have been identified, the school approaches the child's parents for agreement to become involved with the FAST Program.

The program is available to the entire family after regular school hours. The durati on of the program is approximately eig ht weeks but also includes monthly follow-up sessions called Fastworks for a two-year period. While parti ci pating in the program, families work together on projects aimed at developing a positive image of the school system and at stressing the overall impor tance of education. The province and the Winnipeg Foundation are funding partners. FAST employs an evaluation methodology that includes four quantita tive measures and one qualitative measure.

One is the revised behaviour problem checklist and assessment instrument used to screen behaviour di sorders in schools. The checklist contains six subscales that measure conduct di sorder, socializ ed aggressio n, attention problems, anxiety with drawal, psychotic behaviours and motor excess. Parents and teachers complete this checklist for the chi ldren identified as at risk. There is the family adaptabili ty and cohesion evaluation scales. This scale rates a family's level of adaptabilit y, or ability to change, and cohesion, which is the degree to which the family is connected.

Thirdly, social insula rity subscale of the parenting stress inventory. This scale measures parents' percep tions of social support, thus linking. There is the WITTE parent survey. Selected questions from this survey are completed by parents to determine the level of contact between the school and parents and the involvement of the parents in school acti vities. Then there is Families and Schools Together, a program evaluation by family. This is an open-ended questionnaire that provides families with an opportunity to explain the impact of the program on their lives.

As of September 30, 1998, the FAST Program had been intro duced at four schools, those being Machray, Margaret Park, Glenwood and

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1437 Lavallee, resulting in the completion of six eight-week cycles. During the reporting period, FAST Program graduates included 55 families, 85 parents and 147 children. In the fall of 1998, Wellington School became the fifth school to implement the FAST Program. That is what I have to say about that. Mr. Chairman, the honourable member also asked about programming for gifted and talente d students.

Parents who have a student who is gifted or talented need to work in partnership with the school team to identif y the ways in which the best possible program can be developed to meet the student's unique learning needs. Schools and school divisions have the responsibility of meeting the needs of all students. The programming for gifted and talented students remains under local juris diction. Programmi ng initiatives for students who are gifted and talented fall under the responsibility of the local jurisdictions. Manitoba Education and Training provides a formula grant for Level I programming.

This includes support for students who are gifted or talented. School divisions utilize the funding allocation of Level I in various ways based on the identified needs in their divisions. The majority of school divisions provide support to students who are gifted or talented in the context of the regular classroom, providing a learning environment that is enriched and challenging through diverse instructional strategies. New Directions initiatives support the need for a rigorous and challenging educational program through numerous support documents.

These include : success for all learners, differen tiating instruct ion, differentiating instruction of bibli ography, a thinking framework, teaching thinking across the curriculum and Senior 3 Visions and Ventures: An Entrepreneurship Practi cum. All curriculum frameworks documents contain prescribed outcomes and suggestions for teaching, learning and assess ment that encompass the needs of all learners, including those for whom enrichment and extension of the curri culum is appropriate .

In addition, the outcomes of each curriculum are presented so teachers can adapt their teaching to meet the needs of students who are gifted or talented. This format has been widely applauded by schools that use a multiple intelligence approach to teaching. Elements such as greater attention to problem-solving and the use of technology are integrated into all curricula as they are developed. This provides another means in which the student who is gifted or talented can be challenged. Standards testing has a range of questions that include some that will challenge the student who is gifted or talented.

In addition, the standards testing will enable schools to identif y as early as Grade 3 students who are meeting and exceeding expected outcomes in English language arts and mathematics. Some divisions have developed policies and support for students who are gifted or talente d. Here are some examples. In Winnipeg School Division No. 1, the division includes in their ADAP a

section on gifted and talented programming. The goal outlined in this

section is to provide appr opria te instruction in educational services particular to the needs of gifted and talented. The division also outlines program goals such as student identification, professional development and curriculum support. *

(1540) In St. James-Assiniboia School Division No. 2, in Grades 4 to 12, there are assigned co ordinators to support teachers. In addition to many division-wide extracurricular programs, the division has the GATE program for gifted and talented education. The GATE program includes partial pull-out of the regular class room. In Assiniboine South School Division No. 3, they first addressed the needs of the division with a document developed locally entitled Services for Gifted Chil dren, 1984. The docu ment provides a philosophy and material resources.

This support is the basis for the division's challenge program for gifted and talented students. A specific policy was not adopted. The division feels that students who have outstanding capabilities and those who are capable of exceptional performance should receive accommodations and services to meet their needs and realize their potential.

1438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 In Fort Garry School Division No. 5, there is an elementary program co-ordinator for enrich ment who provides program support for school based initiatives. In Tiger Hills School Division No. 29, this division outlines an action plan for enrichment, gifted education in their ADAP. The division pi loted an action plan from 1992 to 1997. The division provided trai ning to staff to increase the division's capacity to provide enrichment to gifted students.

The model gradually built on the division's resources unti l all schools in the division had incorporated some form of enrichment programming. In Turtle Mountain School Division No. 44, they included in their annual divisio nal action plan a

section on the gifted and/or talented program. This outlines a phil osophy and the programming principles. The outline was developed by a divisio nal committee which supports a pull -out program for students who are gifted. This is one of the divisions I had the privilege to visit. I also visited Winnipeg School Division, and have been in St. James-Assiniboia School Division. I have been to Fort Garry School Division. Assiniboine South, I am going there tonight. Tiger Hills, I do not think I have visited yet, but Turtle Mountain I have, and they have some great schools in places like Kil larney and Boiss evain.

They have a superintendent there who would maybe be known to the honourable member, in the person of Jerry Storie, the former Education min ister in the province of Manitoba. He is the superintendent down there in Turtle Mountain School Division, a very progressive area of the province. I met with teachers there and I met with students. I had a very educational and enjoyable time there. In Frontier School Division No. 48, up until June 1998, the division had a 0.5 staff year of a consultant, a 42-hour training program for teachers in divisio nal policy approved by the board.

After the fall of 1998, the division reallocated responsibility for the education of gifted and talented students to the area special needs staff. The division provides the ongoing resource of a consultant to assist teachers in incorporating best practices into daily instru ction, so the department continues to support the approach used in all new curriculum where the enrichment of students and the diversity of learner needs are met within the context of the classroom and the school. The honourable member also asked about transitions from school to adult day services, the Supported Living Program.

The number of students who have individual transitional plans will vary from year to year based on the number of students leaving the school system. The honourable member asked, I think, how many there were and the answer is that it varies. The Supported Living Program typically projects between 75 and 90 individuals each year who will meet eligibility criteria and require day services upon graduation from school at age 21. The transition planning process has identified 93 individuals who will require day services in 1999-2000.

The department expects to be able to serve all of these graduates with new resources required to serve 58 of these individuals. The balance of 35 individuals is expected to be served through vacancies created by movement to paid employment or movement to alternate services due to deteriorating health and aging.

The day services component of the Department of Family Services Supported Living Program provides for a range of supports and trai ning to assist adults with a mental disabil ity to parti cipa te in the community through day program activities that can be broadly characterized as follows: first, sup ported employment and follow-up services support individuals in jobs at competitive wages in community settings; second, services with a vocational focus develop, maintain and maximize an individual's vocational and social skills that may lead to competitive employment.

Services may be delivered in a day service facili ty or in a community setting. Third, indivi dualized developmental services develop, maintain and maximize an individual's personal care skills, emotional growth, physical develop ment, socializ ati on opportunities and com munication skills. Services may be delivered in a day service facil ity or in a community setting. The age of

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1439 eligibility for day services is consistent with the age at which an individual loses his or her right to attend school under

Section 259 of The Public Schools Act. Individuals become eligible in July of the calendar year in which they reach 21 years of age. The Family Services department expects to fund day services for about 2,220 adults with a mental disability in the year 1999-2000 at a total cost of approximately $16 .2 million. The 1999- 2000 budget included a $2-million increase for day services to expand programming, as well as to increase funding levels to service providers by 5 percent.

The Valley Rehab Centre Inc. at Winkler and Versatech Industries Inc. of Winnipeg are examples of large, more traditional day services focusing primarily on faci lity-based vocational services with approximately 110 and 270 parti cipa nts respectiv ely. Both agencies simula te a light manufacturing and packaging environment. The Valley Rehab Centre focuses on woodworking, packaging and assembly and the corresponding sale of goods produced. Versatech also is engaged in packaging and assembly as well as recycling of paper.

Project SAM Inc. of Portage la Prairie provides more community-based vocational services and is successful at securing and supporting paid employment for individuals eligible for day services supports. That is approximately 30 participants. Activities include lawn and property maintenance, residential snow removal and flyer delivery. I hope that is responsive to the matters raised previously by the honourable member. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to clarify something with the minis ter about the material he tabled which is labelled the Guidelines for Registration of Students in Care of Child Welfare Agencies. I was working from a Children and Youth Secretariat document which I think ref erred to foster children. Is this the same document? The words "foster children" does not appear in this one, either in the title or in the general description. Foster chil dren are not necessarily-I know I am in the middle of a sentence. I will just wait for the minister to clarify that, and then I have some further questions on this line, tha nks.

Mr. McCrae: It is the same document. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I want to ask one follow-up question on talented and gifted. The department has a general working definition of child ren who require modified programs in school. Does the department have a working definition of talente d and gifted? For example, the department, I believe, says 5 percent approximately across the province or possibly even within a division is what they would consider within the range of modified programs, 5 percent of students. Does the department have a working definition, a working percentage of talented and gifted? Mr.

McCrae: No, but we work from the knowledge that there is in the lite rature that suggests that about 2 percent of the population are gifted, but we do not have a clear-cut number to offer the honourable member as to how many. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, is there a working definition for how money is alloca ted then within the Level I funding for talented and gifted students? Are divisions working on the same principles? Are there comparable allocations across divisions? Mr. McCrae: Maybe I will ask the honourable member just to put her question again very simply for us. *

(1550) Ms. Friesen: The minis ter indicated that talented and gifted funding at the moment is allocated in Level I of special needs funding. The special needs review is suggesting that the minister make a different kind of allocation. I am interested in what the past practice has been so that when an amount of money is allocated in Level I funding to a particular division, how does that division and under what

definitions does that division operate to allo cate money to gifted students? Are all divisions operating on the same principles and are those principles avai lable from the Department of Education? Mr. McCrae: The present situa tion or the previous situa tion has been that gifted students

1440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 1999 are included in the Level I categoriza tion. When it comes to reporting from the school divis ions, gifted chi ldren are included as one category along with the other categories. That is the present situati on, and the special needs review is suggesting something differently, and that would be something that the department and the partners we are working with will have to address. Divisions have the flexibili ty to allo cate Level I funds based on the programs they design. They then report the expenditures based on the

definitions in the FRAME report. The definition in the FRAME manual indica tes that programming that is provided that is beyond what the regular programs can offer for individu al students. I hope that answers the honourable member's question. Ms. Friesen: Are divisions required to have programming for gifted and talented chi ldren? Mr. McCrae: Divisions are required to provide an education to all the child ren who are covered under The Public Schools Act, so that includes chi ldren who are gifted and chi ldren who have other special education requirements. Ms.

Friesen: How many divisions do offer programs in gifted and talented students? Mr. McCrae: As I poin ted out previously, Winnipeg School Division No. I provides services for gifted students and School Division No. 2 St. James-Assiniboia, School Division No. 4 St. Boniface, School Division No. 6 St.

Vital this is as identified in the FRAME report-also School Division No. 13 Agassiz, School Division No. 15 Hanover, School Division No. 18 Rhineland, School Division No. 24 Portage Ia Prairie, No. 26 Garden Valley, No. 33 Dauphin Ochre, No. 35 Swan Valley, No. 38 Bir dtail River, No. 42 Souris Valley, No. 44 Turtle Mountain, No. 48 Frontier and No. 49 DSFM. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, that seems to be less than half the school divis ions of Manitoba offer that kind of programming.

In looking at the special needs review recommendations, how will he be taking that into account, in particula r, in determining equity and funding across school divisions? Mr. McCrae: In each division there are a certain number of dollars made available to each division under the funding for education from the province. They also raise money for their operations through the special levy on the property tax, which is the subject of discussion in the House and will no doubt be part of the lower tax review announced in the throne speech and mentioned again in the budget brought down by the Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr.

Gilleshammer). Each division would impl ement programs differently, as I indi cated earlier. Assiniboine South, for example, has a different approach than the one in St. James. This provides divisions with the responsibility and the flexibil ity to program for their uniquenesses. I named some districts for which funding is made available on the basis of identified and categorized children. That does not mean, as the honourable member has implied, that all the other divisio ns do not provide various types of enriched opportunities for gifted children in those divisions.

The lis t that I gave to the honourable member simply outlines amounts made available, because the divisions in the cases I mentioned have categorized certain of the gifted child ren in the Level I category. *

(1600) Again, I say to the honourable member that does not mean that other divisions simply have no programming for their gifted chil dren, because that would be quite an incorrect state ment. Some call it enrichment, and because they do not call it gifted, then they do not report it. Sso therefore they do not receive funding because I assume they-well, they just have not.

So that those who have identified chi ldren in a categorized way have received funding because presumably it requires additional funding to make that programming work, so that each division would have something that reflects their parti cular requirements. The special education report did not specifically recommend that there be legisla ted or mandated gifted programming. But it did recommend that we specify funding for gifted children, and we are indeed looking at that recommendation.

May 18, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1441 Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the final

section of proposals from the special needs review looks at and recommends, in fact, a number of acti ons that I think have been recommended to the government before. In fact, after the last election, in the Postl report, there were recom mendations for single-window access for students, for full-service schools where the school is the physica l site for service delivery, for the versions of the child profile information system lin ked to cross-sector funding, and the intersectoral co-operation to provide consistent and accurate information to parents about the school system.

I think versions of that and the fundamentals, the assumptions behind that, were all included in the Post! report in recommen dations made to the government. I know the mi nister is a former Min ister of Health and will be famil iar with that, and perhaps he will be able to tell us what progress the government has made in the past four years, or three years, on those recommendati ons for services to chil dren through schools and through the bringing together of communi ty and school resources to serve the child. Mr.

McCrae: Well, I have no doubt that in response to the Post! report, which I, by the way, brought forward as Minis ter of Health, although Dr. Postl did all the work, you would need literally a catalogue to respond accurately to the honourable member's question. I propose that we put together that catalogue, whether it takes one sheet or 20 sheets to do that. I think there has been significa nt progress made for the chil dren of Manitoba since the very good work done by Dr. Brian Postl, so I will undertake to bring that forward.

Even then I would have to offer a caution that my fear is that we might not have a complete list of all the services that are being provided to children, some of which existed prior to the Post! report, some of which have been changed since the Postl repo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c152f53c31802f7f01f6d68c19460b2e050f93c1

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