Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1997 (Sitting 22, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-22

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 22- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April9, 1997

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. - EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. - MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa PC. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N D P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone PC. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D P SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Ross mere P.C TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

1177 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 9, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosann Wowchuk(Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. MacMil lan, S. Komik, K. MacM illan and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes? The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and WHEREA S a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobiie screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

1178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA April 9, 1997

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Spea ker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for 1997-98 for the Department of Highways and Transportation.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Billll-The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): Moved by myself, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Radcliffe), that leave be given to introduce Bill 11, The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les Affaires du No rd, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message and give the message to the Spea ker, if I may. Motion agreed to. *(13 35) Billl2-The Manitoba Water Services Board Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 12, The Manitoba Water Services Board Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Commission des services d'approvisionnement en eau du Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to at this time table His Honour's message. Motion agreed to. Bill 13-The Insurance Amendment Act Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), that leave be given to introduce Bill 13, The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les assurances. and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Mr. Chen Wenzhao. Consul General of the People's Republic of China to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Access Program Funding Reduction Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr.

April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1179 Filmon). The Access program has been one of the most successful programs in this province, indeed in Canada. Seventy-three percent of the participants and students in that program are First Nations and aboriginal people; 70 percent of those are women. They have trained nurses, social workers, teachers, engineers, doctors and a number of other people in professions and careers and lives of dignity.

Yesterday, when the Premier refused to answer questions on prevention in dealing with the United Way report, we asked about the cutbacks that were made by the provincial government to the Access program. The Premier then went in the hallway and said that the major cuts were made by the federal government and denied any responsibility at all on the cutbacks that have taken place in the Access program.

Now we all can universally condemn the federal Tory government of the past for cutting back on their role in the Access program, but I would like the Premier to either confirm or deny that his government has also cut back on the provincial portion of Access over the last number of years, contrary to his public statements in the hallway yesterday. *

(1340) Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): The Leader of the Opposition has to be careful not to confuse two things, Access programming and Access fund. The Access programming has not been reduced at all, Madam Speaker. It is still the same amount as last year. That commitment continues. There will be no change to students in their application for Access. Their criteria remains as they did last year. There was no change to that whatsoever.

What has had a change, and it is not a change that is unexpected to the field at all-we had an Access fund that was year to year, put in pla ce in 1988 and continued on a year-to-year basis until such time as it was felt that the universities had modified their approaches to making available opportunities for aboriginal students and others in need. We feel that goal has been accomplished. The field was aware that we were pleased with their progress in that regard. That fund is discontinued except for some programs that we felt still needed to continue, and they are being funded by alterna te sources.

So the Leader of the Opposition is not quite on the mark with the implication in his question. Mr. Doer: I have a copy of the ministry's briefing note which clearly indicates that the provincial government was funding the Access programs into the early 1990s at a level of some $1 1 million, and now the funding in this year's budget is down to $6.4 million. Now the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is a big man out in the hallway.

Will he stand up today and defend the cuts of his government, his caucus and his cabinet, and confinn in fact that he has been heartless and he has cut investments in the Access program, contrary to any advice for prevention and long-tenn dignity in careers for First Nations people and other Manitobans that need that program? Mrs. Mcintosh: I repeat to the member opposite that the global allocation for funding Access programs this year is identical to that given to the universities last year.

I also indicate to the member that students who apply for assistance over and above the nonn, because they are disadvantaged and require those extra funds, have the same criteria, can receive help to an unlimited amount if they require it. That has not changed either, so the member again has implications in his questions that leave a misleading inference for the people. Mr. Doer: The only one misleading the people of this province is the Premier and his Minister of Education who refuse to take responsibility for their own cuts.

They have used the camouflage of the cuts of the federal Tory government to camouflage the cuts that they have made to the Access program, contrary to any report and study about long-tenn preventative programs, Access programs, bridges for people, bridges for communities. Would the Premier not confinn that his government-not the federal government, which has cut the program, we admit-the provincial government has cut the funding?

In '91-92 from $11 million, '92-93, $10.9 million, and down and down it goes, until this year it is down to $6.4 million, a cut of some $6 million to people and students that need help, not cuts. Why do we not put a smile on the face of people that need Access programs instead of smiles on the faces of the

1180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 business community that get their tax breaks from this Premier and this government that does not give a dam? Mrs. Mcintosh: The member knows that some years ago the federal government and the provinces had a new way of delivering loans. Here in Manitoba students were first asked to acquire a loan. Then, if they require more on top of that through Access, they can be given an unlimited amount up to whatever it is they require to meet their needs.

That means we do not have to expend as much money because first the loan goes in place, then on top of that the nonrepayable bursary, Madam Speaker. That I think the Leader of the Opposition knows but has chosen not to make reference to it in his question. The amount of money that is for Access programming remains unchanged. The Access fund itself, which was just a little over half-a-million dollars, was a one-time year by year to accomplish specific goals, most of which have been accomplished by the universities.

Some of those programs under Access fund will still continue, and they are being funded from alternate sources. *

(1345) SmartHealth Patient Record Confidentiality Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A new question to the First Minister. We have alwa ys said that privacy legislation should precede private contracts, which of course is the opposite way in which this government has made an arrangement and contract with the SmartHealth operation, a subsidiary of the Royal Bank of Canada. Madam Spea ker, can the Premier tell the people of Manitoba why the Manitoba Medical Association is urging its doctor members to refuse to co-operate with the Manitoba SmartHealth program? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think the Manitoba Medical Association will have to answer that question themselves, but I can tell the Leader of the Opposition, we, like members opposite, are very concerned that, in the new age of technology and the great benefits it can provide in the flow of infonnation. there be very strong protection of privacy. That is why we will be bringing forward legislation to cover that in this session of the House.

With respect to the committee that was developed to work on that particular area, the College of Physicians and Surgeons. as the professional body representing physicians, has been involved in that process, if I understand it correctly. rather than the Manitoba Medical Association. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker. in a letter to the doctors across Manitoba. the president of the MMA states that the paramount concern that they have is the security of confidential patient records, individual patient records.

Would the Premier please advise this House and the people of Manitoba: Why are doctors worried about the confidentiality of patient records? Should the Province of Manitoba not have dealt with this prior to this private contract being issued to their friends in the Royal Bank? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of aiL everybody should be concerned about the private records of individuals. Whether those records be on paper or on an electronic medium. we should be concerned about it. The difficulty. of course, is when you put it onto an electronic system. the opportunities to access are far greater.

That is why we will be introducing into this House in this session very, very tough legislation, in fact, leading-edge legislation in Canada on privacy protection. The doctors. the physicians of Manitoba have been represented in the development of this legislation through their professional body, the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Mr. Doer: Most confidential experts in Canada have concluded that Manitoba is in last place in dealing with the legislation.

So, if that is the leading edge, Madam Spea ker, the only leading edge we see is the hundred million-dollar contract-is the leading edge of a contract to a private firm for public records. That is the leading edge we see from the Conservatives. I have a simple question to the Premier: Who will own the individual patient records, the private company or the public interest? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition continually in this House exaggerates, in - -

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1181 fact is sometimes absolutely wrong and proves time and time again his lack of knowledge on the subjects on which he inquires. If the member for Concordia, the Leader of the Oppositio n, was right in saying we are so far behind, why is it one of the difficulties we are encountering in actually drafting this legislation is that we have no other precedents to follow? The fact of the matter is that we are drafting provisions for which there is no precedent.

All provinces today who are heading into this in one form or another-Ontario, I know, is advancing this as well, and we are attempting to share basic information on how we draft the legal provisions. So the Leader of the Opposition once again demonstrates he knows very little about the topic. With respect to ownership information, that is a matter that will be settled in the bill, and I ask him to await its introduction into this Assembly. *

(1350) Privacy and Confidentiality Comm ittee Manitoba, is not advancing into information technology as we are in this province. We are in the leading edge with the SmartHealth project in developing probably the first comprehensive project of its kind. When you are dealing with such a large, massive change and use of new technology, many of the issues arising around confidentiality are very different than in the traditional form. So I think if she would check the details of her file she would find, like her Leader, she is not correct.

Madam Speaker, with respect to this committee that was struck some time ago, it is my understanding when it was struck by my predecessor that the various stakeholder groups would be represented, and I believe rightly so, by their professional body, not by the organization that negotiates their salary. You are right. Physicians are the stewards. They are also represented by their professional disciplinary body, the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Ms. McGifford: Given that the government will- Membership Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Spea ker, Ms.

McGifford: Madam Spea ker, I am attempting to I might suggest to the Minister of Health that he could ask a question. borrow my B.C. file on privacy protection legislation. Today we have registered the Manitoba Medical Association's concerns regarding Smar tHealth, especially their fears with regard to security and confidentiality of individual medical records and the possible privatization of these records.

To the Minister of Health: I would like the minister to explain why, though the HIN privacy and confidentiality committee has been struck and though the Manitoba Medical Association has repeatedly asked to have representation on this committee, have they just as repeatedly been refused membership on this committee. They are the stewards of the records- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Spea ker, if the member for Osborne would check her British Columbia file, she would probably find out that British Columb ia, as every other province except Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Osborne, to pose a supplementary question. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Given that this government will in the near future be tabling privacy legislation regarding health information protection, is the request to allow the Manitoba Medical Association a place at the table indicative of the stubborn resistance to input that we can expect once the legislation is tabled? In other words, will the government- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if there is one lesson to be learned in the comments of the member opposite, it

1182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 is that you cannot ad hoc every time some group says they are not at the table. Madam Speaker, a very conscious decision was made when that committee was struck that the professional bodies-and physicians are not the only players in this. There are other health care providers whose professional bodies are represented on this committee. It is professional bodies that are important, because they have the power to license and discipline. I do not know if the member for Osborne appreciates that. The member would like more detail.

I can tell the member that I have scheduled a meeting with the committee, which includes the professional bodies. I believe we are meeting next week. I am going to be providing them with the latest legal wording around many of those provisions. I want their input. Many of these decisions are in the final stages of conclusion, before we have a bill that I can bring to this Legislature. So, Madam Speaker, I am personally involved in this consultation. We are meeting with that committee, and I want to make sure that the stakeholders are comfortable with this legislation. Ms.

McGifford: We are talking about putting patient records- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am certain the honourable member would like her comments on the record or question on the record. The honourable member for Osborne, with a final supplementary question. *

(1355) Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the minister today to assure Manitobans-and I want to quote from Dr. Ullyot-that the possibility of any arrangement, other than public ownership of individual persons' private information, is outrageous or, in other words, out of the question. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member says only public ownership. What about private, individual ownership of my own health records? That is another possibility. Madam Speaker, those are the issues that this committee is considering.

I can assure the member that it is our intention to have leading-edge, strong legislation to protect the health records of Manitobans. Madam Spea ker, it is very regrettable that the member for Osborne has yet to recognize that the physicians of this province are properly represented in this process through their professional body, which will be the bod) that can discipline them should they breach the professional ethics in the release of records now. It is not the MMA: they are only their negotiating body for fees. Violent Deaths-Children Investigations Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Sophia Schmidt, Nadine Beaulieu. Megan Ramsay. Crystal Colomb. Randy Sherv.ood. Devon Cook-Madam Speaker, this is a partial list of children who have died violently at the hands of adults. What they have in common is that they all died in 1996. The Children's Advocate has recommended a formal public review of all recent child deaths to examine the circumstances leading to the deaths of these children.

Will the Minister of Family Services support this recommendation of the Children's Advocate, and \Viii she call for a full public review, as recommended by the Children's Advocate. so that more children will not die? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Spea ker. I thank my honourable friend for that question. I take very seriously, as does our government, any issues surrounding the death of any child in our province. I do know that we have been through a fairly lengthy court process on one of the recent child deaths, that being baby Sophia Schmidt.

I know that the Chief Medical Examiner has called a public inquest into that death. I will not rule an)t hing out at this point in time, but I do want to indicate very seriously that we want to understand what the causes of the deaths are. We want to try to prevent any future deaths. Mr. Martindale: Will the Minister of Family Services implement her own government's report entitled -

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1183 Families First which calls for the establishment of a system for independent investigation into allegations of abuse by caregivers? This is her own government's document. She has written a covering letter in this document. Will she implement her own- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I can indicate to my honourable friend today that, indeed, in order for that to take place, there will need to be legislative amendments. We will be bringing legislation in this session. Recommendations Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House if that legislation will include an item that she commented on on April 11 last year when she said that a partial release of recommendations contained in confidential child-death reports submitted to her by the Chief Medical Examiner would be made public in cases where there was no conflict with any criminal charges? This is something that she said she was going to do. Will the amendments to the legislation actually do it? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I want to indicate to my honourable friend that we are in the process right now of compiling that information for public release. *

(1400) Shelter Allowances Indexing Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Housing. At the onset, I would state that one has to question this government's commitment to our two shelter allowance programs for seniors and for families and quote specifically from a letter that I received just about an hour, an hour and a half ago. In this particular case, it states: In my case, in 1989 my rent was at $290 a month, and my SAFFR allowance came to as high as $82 a month. My rent has steadily gone up since 1989, and it is now $350 a month.

At the same time, my SAFFR has steadily decreased from $78 to $72 to $68 and now stands at $54.53 a month. My specific question to the minister is: Why has this government not acknowledged the need to index these two valuable shelter programs? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Spea ker, I should point out to the member that, in relation to the subsidies and grants that are associated with the SAFFR and SAFER programs, it is based upon the income that the individual has at his or her disposal. The grant is adjusted. If income is going up by that individual, the grants would naturally come down.

They will not stay in a fixed position, and the individual will have his or her income increasing. So that is a natural progression. If the income goes up, the grant goes down. It makes sense to me. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I am glad to see that that makes sense to the Minister of Housing.

I would ask the Minister of Housing, using his logic then: Will he acknowledge that individuals on fixed incomes in future years will in fact receive increments that increase to match the cost of living so that, as their incomes remain relatively the same and the expense continues to go up, in fact they will be indexed so the senior or the low-income family is not going to be put into a further handicapped position? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, I am just trying to get the logical sequence of the events that are put before me. If the income remains the same, the grant remains the same.

If the income goes up, it will be adjusted. I mean, if the income goes-it ju st seems a natural progression. I do not know how else I can explain the logistics behind it. If the grant goes down-it is not a one-way street. The grants are tied into income. If the rent and the income-if the income is going up, the subsidy will go down. I will say it a little slower next time. Mr. Lamoureux: What we are asking is the Minister of Housing to acknowledge the fact that the shelter allo wance programs are in fact of great benefit as an alternative to nonprofit housing stock.

The problem is it is not being indexed on an annual basis. The simple question is: Is the government prepared to index it so that this way individuals on low incomes, fixed

1184 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA April 9, 1997 incomes, like seniors and low-income families, wil l in fact be subsidized so you are not forcing them in an indirect way into nonprofit housing which will cost the government more money? Mr. Reimer: I will try to explain it again. I wil l concede to the member that it is a very beneficial program. We have had great take-up with the actual numbers of participants. In fact, what I could indicate to the member is that actually the numbers of clients have declined in the amount of monies that have been put into the program.

I should point out that back in 1993-94 there were 850 clients on the SAFFR program. In 1997, there are 790. So the clients are going down. The program is still a very effective use, but it is tied into the logical progression that if the individual income is going up, then our grants will be going down. Now it can only work in that type of relationship. As to the indexing, we have not looked at that as a consideration. All those decisions are made during budgeting of a process through our department, and we can look at it in our next budgetary process. Shelter Allowances Indexing Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): We are concerned that this government has cut a half million dollars from the Shelter Allowance for Elderly Renters and the Shelter Allowance for Family Renters. I have a letter from the Manitoba Society of Seniors that is recommending that a minimum claimable rent figure and the income levels for the seniors' program annually be reviewed and indexed to rise with the consumer price index. Now that was sent to the minister back in 1992.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing if that has been reviewed and what response they have given to the Manitoba Society of Seniors of making the seniors' rent program more fair to seniors. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I thank the honourable member for that question, because it gives me a chance to put on record the fact of what was brought up before and has been alluded to today in regard that there has been a decrease in the budget. The relationship between the applica tions and the budgetary items is what is brought forth for consideration at this time.

When we do our budget, we put in a projection based on previous pickup of appl ications from the prior year. In looking at our budget, we put in a figure for '96-97 of 850 clients. The actual pickup on it was 760 clients. That is why the member is referring to a decrease-! think she mentioned something like $200,000 or $300,000-in the program. If the clients are not there and the pickup is not there. naturally that money is not going to be utilized. So it is not a decrease. Ms.

Cerilli: I want to ask the Minister of Housing very simply: Given that seniors have their pensions indexed. will he also index the program for seniors' rent supplement so that they do not lose their entire pension benefit to this program when it is taken back from their rent supplement? Mr. Reimer: The basis of this whole program is a rental supplement. It is a program that has proven that we can help with the SAFFR program and the SAFER program for elderly people who are renting. We have had good take-up on this. We continue to support it to a tune last year of just over $1.2 million.

We had budgeted $1.5 million. The pickup was not entirely there based on the figures that we had anticipated, so naturally there is a decrease in that budget line. But that does not mean that there was money that was not available for expenditure. The applications did not warrant the additional funding. Sheriff's Officers Security/Safety Concerns Mr. Gord Mackintosh (Sl Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice.

After two prisoner escapes from the custody of sheriffs officers within just over a year, we became aware of serious safety concerns in the Sheriffs Office and asked the minister at the time to provide me with the recommendations from an internal review following the last escape in January of '96 to oversee the department's follow-up. My question to the minister is: Given my information that line officers have no knowledge of the implementation of the I 0 recommendations or of

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1185 significant improvements -that is over a year later-will the minister provide those recommendations today and tell us, in his view, how many of those recommendations have now been fully implemented? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am not about to interfere in the decision of professionals relating to workplace safety and health issues. There in fact is a Workplace Safety and Health committee at the courthouse that deals with these issues.

If there is any particular issue that is still outstanding, it is open for any employee. Indeed, it is open for a Workplace Safety and Health officer to make recommendations and look at any security issues. I am more than happy to co-operate in any respect. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who was posed with a serious question of public safety and procedures and protocol staffing his own department, just tell this House how many of those recommendations in his view are now in place, given that all but two of those recommendations were to have been in place last week? Mr.

Toews: As I have indicated, I, unlike the member for St. Johns, am not about to interfere in professional decisions relating to workplace safety and health. If there are outstanding workplace safety and health issues, there is an appropriate forum. If there are any outstanding ones that have not been dealt with and the Workplace Safety and Health committee says that they should be implemented, we will take a look at that. *

(1410) Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister acknowledge that we have seen this scenario just over a year ago and earlier than that when requests were made of the minister to get involved in the department? Would the minister now acknowledge that having responsibility and accountability for safety in his department is not a matter of interfering? It is his department. It is his officers' safety. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I recognize what my responsibilities are.

My responsibilities are to assure the public and to assure sheriff's officers that there is an appropriate system and to ensure that that system is a safe one as far as can be reasonably expected as The Workplace Safety and Health Act says. I am committed to that process. I am committed to the safety of my sheriff's officers. I am committed to the safety of the public. Regional Health Authorities Postponement Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

In January the Minister of Health was told loud and clear by municipal leaders in Dauphin that he was going too fast with his plans for regionalization and that they should be delayed. They were not well thought out. At least at two meetings in Dauphin, two huge meetings, concerns were expressed about this government's plans for regionalization. Last night the governors of the Dauphin Regional Health Cenn:e � oted not to join the Parkland Regional Health assoc1at10n.

Does the minister now realize that he should delay the plan for regionalization to allow rural Manitobans the time we need to understand this government's plans? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all with respect to the Dauphin hospital, I was there at their meeting last night. Let us remember, I think all but one of the members of the board of directors voted to evolve. That was their recommendation to the board of governors. The governors met; I believe there are 43 governors. To become a governor I believe you buy a membership for $5 on an annual basis.

There are 43 such citizens with that position in Dauphin. Of those, 26 voted. Sixteen of the governors voted to evolve into the regional health authority; I 0 did not. It required a two-thirds vote. So the minority of governors have chosen to continue to govern and that is their responsibility. They shall govern. Dauphin General Hospital Deficit Funding Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): The minister knows that the rules were followed all around. What is he going-

118 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April9 , 1997 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has a question, I am sure. Mr. Struthers: How can the minister tell the town councils and the R. M. councils in Dauphin that they are now going to be responsible for the debt carried by the hospital when he has got the money, he obviously has the money? How can he now take that money off the table just because they will not join his Parkland Regional Health Authority? That is heavy handed and that is blackmail. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The meeting I attended last night was a public meeting.

The member for Dauphin, I gather because of his commitments in the House, was not able to be there. But, Madam Speaker, when the issue of the debt came up, the offer by us to facilities that entered the RHAs-that we would cover the entire deficit; otherwise, the regular process begins. The Dauphin General Hospital or the Dauphin Regional Hospital will then-and in fact has appealed many of their issues with Manitoba Health. They are in the process of negotiating, and the regular status quo pre-RHA process will continue.

If there are parts of that deficit that were unforeseen, they will be considered for coverage; those that are not, the hospital will have to manage that. As the member knows, in Dauphin the municipality is not the constituent body, it is in the governors, and it will be their responsibility to deal with whatever part of the deficit is not covered. Eaton's Closures Minister's Briefings Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Reimer) in Estimates this week stated that his assistant deputy minister was a member of the multidepartmental committee looking at the potentially catastrophic closure of Eaton's stores in Winnipeg and Brandon. When I asked the minister to provide me with an update on the work of this committee, excluding of course anything that was of a sensitive nature, he unbelievably replied that he did not know. He had not been briefed or asked for a briefing from his assistant. Today we learn that there have been-the catastrophe begins with 120 layoffs.

I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs: Does he wonder that the people of Winnipeg have no confidence in this government' s commitment to their community when he does not even take the time to be briefed by his staff on an issue that has an enormous social and economic impact on the city of Winnipeg, the city he is responsible for? If he does not want to answer, maybe the Premier would like to answer for once today. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I cannot believe that the member for Wellington has the audacity to now come crying about Eaton's having difficulty in Manitoba when her predecessor, the member for St. James as he was at the time, the New Democratic Minister of Labour, went out publicly and cut up his Eaton's card and urged everybody in Manitoba to stop shopping at Eaton's. You reap what you sow, because then when you tell people not to shop at Eaton's and their business drops, that is what happens. People lose their jobs. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauchesne 417 is quite clear that- Madam Speaker: On a point of order? Mr. Ashton: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, most definitely-answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

First of all, I would note that the question that was raised with regard to what this government is doing, if anything, to deal with the very serious situation involving the anchor stores with Eaton's, and second of all, I wonder if you could perhaps remind the Premier that this is 1997, not 1987, and he is supposed to be the Premier and should expect to accept some responsibility for trying to save the Eaton stores in Winnipeg. Mr.

Filmon : Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, when people cut up their credit cards and urge people not to shop at a place, that destroys jobs and that is precisely the point that the New Democrats are doing here. They are the ones who destroy the jobs, and then they try and cry over it. - -

April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1187 Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, the Premier should, in following our rules, point out that Eaton's expanded in the 1980s and unfortunately may be leaving under his stewardship, which is a tragedy. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I will take the point of order raised by the honourable member under advisement and report back to the House. * * * Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. *

(1420) Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. I took under advisement a point of order raised during Question Period on October 29 , 1996. The honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) had posed a question to the Minister of Justice containing the phrase "did she," meaning the minister, "deliberately mislead this House." I had asked him to withdraw the words because they have been ruled to be unparliamentary. The honourable member for St. Johns then raised a point of order to which both House leaders spoke.

I undertook to review Hansard to examine closely the context in which the words were used. I would reference two recent decisions of Manitoba Speakers where the words "deliberately misleading" were ruled to be unparliamentary: Speaker Rocan on July 12, 1991, and by this Speaker on October 17, 1995. Having reviewed the Hansard with care to look at the context in which the words were used by the honourable member for St. Johns in reference to the honourable Minister of Justice, I am still of the opinion that the use of the words by the honourable member for St.

Johns were unparliamentary, and I am calling upon him now to withdraw the words "deliberately mislead. " Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): The Hughes inquiry speaks much louder than me, Madam Speaker. I will withdraw the word "deliberately. " Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for St. Johns. During Question Period on October 29, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable member for St. Johns in which he stated that the honourable Minister of Justice had imputed unworthy motives to him when she said "but my concern is for the member for St.

Johns who continues to use this very tragic issue to advance his own political agenda. " I would like to reference two recent rulings, May 2 and May 8 of last year, as relevant precedents. In my opinion, on October 29 the Minister of Justice did indeed contravene Beauchesne Citation 481 (

e) which reads that a member must not impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged by a member. I would ask the minister to withdraw the comments in question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, certainly, according to your ruling, I will withdraw those comments. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Minister of Culture. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Vimy Ridge-80th Anniversary Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wolseley have leave? [agreed] Ms.

Friesen: I would like to ask all members of this House to join us in remembering the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge. At 5:3 0 a. m. , 80 years ago, the 20,000 young men of the first wave began their assault on the great hill ofVimy which rises steeply out ofthe flat plains of northern France. The battle lasted for three days and nights. It cost the lives of 3, 598 Canadians and was only one of many such slaughters of the First World War whose names are written on monuments across our province-in Dauphin, in Gladstone, on Broadway, Neepawa and in St. Andrews.

1188 LEG ISLA TIYE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 But the name of Yi my resounds throughout Canada's history. It was the first ti me that Canadians had fought together as a new nat ion, and the taking and holding of that posit ion was bought dearly. Vimy has been to Canadians as Gallipoli is to Australians and as Beaumont Hamel is to the people of Newfoundland. In my own commun ity, an older generat ion renamed our park for Yi my. Annual memorials are conducted.

In Manitoba on those occasions we do remember the regiments from western Canada composed of aboriginal people, Japanese Canadians from Brit ish Columbia and the thousands of Canadians who, in many cases, were recently arrived from Brita in or other parts of Europe. We remember, Madam Speaker, the Princess Patricia's, the 78th Battalion of the Winn ipeg Grenadiers, Winn ipeg's 44 th Batt alion, the 27th Battalion known as the City of Winn ipeg and the 8th Battalion, the Little Black Devils. Many of those young men never returned, but all of them saw the faces of battle that morning 80 years ago.

Private William Peckover, a 20-year-old Manitoba school teacher remembered his City of Winn ipeg Battalion moving forward in the full light of that clouded April morning: We learned full well, he wrote in his diary, the nature of the great modem battlefield. This was war where the wounded, friend and foe alike, lay everywhere about in the cold, wet mud, silent and helpless in their agony or crying out for help to the stretcher bearers who fanned out behind the attacking waves.

Just ahead of us, he wrote, roared the barrage and all the fury of the fight, the death rattle of the machine guns bursting overhead, shrapnel and counterfire from the enemy guns, all of the fiendish implements of death that man had devised. In contrast, the conquered area through which we passed seemed strangely quiet. Here death reigned, only the agony of pain. Madam Speaker, at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we do remember them. * (143 0) Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): May I have leave to make a nonpolit ical statement, Madam Speaker?

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Education have leave to make a nonpolit ical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Mcintosh: I would like to speak as well on the Battle of Vi my Ridge and the things that happened at that ti me and the debt of gratitude we owe to a whole host of people, many of whom are gone, some of whom still remain.

One of those men was my grandfather, Allen George Hopper, who fought in the Battle ofYimy Ridge, was subject of an attack by a hand grenade, had his lung blown out, one arm left hanging, was hauled into the trenches, maggots were put on the wound to prevent gangrene from spreading through his body, leaving his arm subsequently somewhat intact, crooked but dangling for the rest of his life, breathing problems, and a number of other things that occurred for the rest of his life and died probably about 20 years earlier than he would have because of the debilitat ing results of having been in that war.

Coming from a mi litary family as I do, with grandparents and parents who have always stood ready to give their lives for Canada, to sacrifice their lives for Canada, who spent their whole careers prepared to die for this country and the freedom that we have in this Chamber to govern or to be crit ical of government, I feel a very special bond to the people like my grandfather. When I was I 0. I went with my grandfather to Vi my. We crawled down into the trenches.

We went through into the trenches. went to many of the caverns under the fields where my grandfather had been for weeks and weeks and weeks, showed me the place where they cut off his boots because his feet had become so swollen with water he had trench foot, as many of the soldiers there did, and walked up to the monument and went to many of the places v.here some of the things that the member for \Volseley (Ms. Friesen) was reading about in that young man's diary were.

I relived with him vicariously what he had been through and learned from him that there are some things that are worth dying for, and there are some things that are worth standing up for and that freedom in Canada should never be treated frivolously or in a way that does not honour our ability to govern or to be crit ical of government. -

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1189 So, in my constituency, we have a street called Vimy. We have an arena called Vimy. I think I never drive down those streets without thinking of my grandfather and the people like him and the people who came after him in subsequent wars that kept our nation the great nation that it is. So I ju st want to say on this day, I hope that we will always remember and not forget the price that was paid for the freedom that we have and not treat our freedom lightly. Comm ittee Chang es Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Tweed), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for 10 a.m., Thursday, April 10, be amended as follows: the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) for the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson); the member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) for the member for Riel (Mr. Newman); the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) for the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render). Motion agreed to. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr.

Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Transcona (Mr. Reid) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton); Elmwood (Mr. Malow ay) for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk); Burrows (Mr. Martindale) for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), for Thursday, April 10, 1997, at 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Spea ker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs.

Mcintosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for LaVerendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department ofNa tural Resources. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HOUSING Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Good afternoon.

Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon the Committee of Supply will be resuming consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Housing. When the committee last sat, the minister had just started to give his opening statement. I now call upon the minister to resume his statement. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Thank you very much. What I was in the process of talking about yesterday was in regard to the bringing out, for example, the Gilbert Park Tenants Association and the role that they played in the project. I will just continue on that same vein.

An entirely different range of challenges requires our attention in elderly housing where a recent analysis revealed that over 15 percent of the tenant popula tion is age 85 years or older. It is further estimated that the proportion of persons of retirement age will continue to increase well into the next century, with the fastest growing segment being those 75 years of age and over. This represents an increasing demand in terms of support services required by these tenants. The aging of the popula tion has major implications for both the Department of Housing and the Department of Health.

Elderly persons housing projects are faced with aging tenant population who are becoming increasingly frail and the lack of services necessary to permit aging in place may be a significant factor in our elderly housing vacancy rates. At the same time, the health care system is faced with growing pressure, and long-term and acute care facilities by the elderly, as well as increasing home care demands and costs. The department is continuing to provide noon meal programs where space and facilities exist. In congregate meal programs that operate independently

1190 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 of Manitoba Housing have been given access to the kitchen facilities in elderly projects in rural communities. *

(1440) Space for health clinics and for home care workers has been made available in certain projects for the benefit of residents. As well, the tenant resource program, which is available in a number of elderly projects, provides tenants with the necessary assistance to identify their service and care needs and to refer them to the appropriate service provider. (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) With the continued and increasing needs of our elderly tenants, however, we recognize that these initiatives might not be sufficient to meet the needs of our tenants.

Therefore, Manitoba Housing is working in conjunction with the Department of Health in the development of an assisted living pilot project to meet the current needs and the potential of future needs of our aging tenant population. Assisted living can be roughly defined as housing with the provision of support services, such as meals, housekeeping and laundry. In addition to these services, the departments are also looking into providing 24-hour supervised assisted living units in elderly housing projects to accommodate elderly persons awaiting placement in long-term personal care facilities.

While the introduction of assisted living in Manitoba Housing, buildings may require some investment in terms of apartment and building upgrades, it is also likely that an assisted living project targeted to more independent seniors on a pay-for-service basis would enhance the marketability of older projects and result in decreased vacancy rates. In mentioning older projects here, another challenge faced by this department is introduced: the age of the social housing portfolio. Over 62 percent of the social housing units in Manitoba were built prior to 1978.

Proper maintenance of the physical structure of our housing projects is important, as this is the asset through which we provide our services. Further, this asset represents a considerable investment on the part of the people of Manitoba. Unfortunately, the age of the projects leads to increased maintenance costs at a time when responsible government is looking toward measures by which fiscal economies and savings can be realized. It is important, therefore, that maintenance funds are expended wisely. There are long-term benefits associated with the appropriate and timely expenditure.

Through the use of inf ormation technology, we will be establishing short-. medium-, and long-term maintenance plans. In this way, maintenance requirements can be prioritized and financial planning will enable us to address these maintenance needs. Additional savings potential to be explored include initiatives that would result in future savings such as expenditures on low-maintenance building components and initiatives to improve the efficient use of energy. Similarly, preventive maintenance will promote a longer useable lifespan for our projects and will maximize the effective uses of our housing assets.

In these ways and in other ways yet to be examined and implemented. we will make the most efficient use of our maintenance dollars without sacrificing the continued provtston of saf e and adequate accommodation for households in need. Without a doubt. however. the major challenge facing the department at this time is our changing relationship with the federal government. The department has been and continues to be heavily influenced by federal housing policy.

Following its January I, 1994, withdrawal from new commitments to social housing, the federal government formally offered to the province management responsibilities for the entire social housing portfolio in Manitoba in March of 1996. The total federal portfolio which has been offered for transfer to the province consists of 17,500 units developed under several program and funding arrangements.

This means that when combined with the approximate 18,500 federal-provincial cost-shared units which are directly managed by the province, acceptance of the federal portfolio would nearly double the number of units under provincial administration. As a condition of this devolution proposal, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation announced -

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1191 that its annual funding share for the social housing portfolio would be limited or capped based on 1995- 1996 expenditure levels. This funding allocation will be reduced in subsequent years of operations as project commitment and subsidy agreements mature and reach their expiry date. In addition to the subsidy cap monies, CMHC proposes to provide two lump sum payments to the province.

The first lump sum is intended to act as the province's mortgage insurance fund, as Manitoba will require to assume CMHC's loan exposure for an outstanding mortgage commitment in the federal portfolio. The second lump sum is an allowance for risks associated with future increases in costs due to inflation and changes in interest rates. Part of the due diligence on the part of the province, therefore, is to ensure that the funding allocations proposed by CMHC will be sufficient for the ongoing operation of the social housing portfolio.

The department is currently undertaking a complete and detailed assessment of the social housing portfolio and is involved in ongoing discussions with other provinces and with CMHC. Recommendations regarding the federal devolution proposal are still under consideration through this 1997-98 fiscal year. While CMHC would prefer that all provinces accept their devolution proposal to enable the federal government to completely remove itself from ongoing involvement in the social housing field, we are not prepared to make a hasty decision at this time on this matter.

This is not a challenge that this department takes lightly. The conclusion of our analysis of the federal proposal and our negotiations with CMHC will fundamentaJly change the policy environment for social housing in this province. The final decision in this matter wiJJ ultimately determine our future role and the responsibilities in the management and the operation of social housing portfolio in Manitoba.

The Department of Housing recognizes that housing is an integral part of the social and economic development of this province and that adequa te and affordable housing has a fundamental influence on the health and the weJJ-being of individuals and the community as a whole. Through our ongoing commitment and involvement, the department will continue to address the challenges that have been described while accepting our responsibility for ensuring that the fiscal goals of this government are realized. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

McAlpine): I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), have any opening comments? Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Perhaps just a few comments to outline some of the issues that I hope to discuss, especially after just listening to the minister's opening statement where he is talking about the ongoing negotiations with the federal government regarding the devolution.

It is something that I have tried to follow, and now he is saying that they are being cautious and considered, but I understand that this past April 1 was one of the deadlines that they had wanted to meet in terms of having an agreement. So it is interesting now that they have decided that they are not going to meet that deadline and that they are going to take a further considered approach to this.

I know that I have written him letters responding to concerns by some of the social housing managers about the hasty approach that they were taking in doing what staff were terming drive-by assessments of the portfolio that is currently managed by CMHC and the concern that the community has not been involved in this process, this from the information that he has given me about the way that the federal government is going to flow the money into this agreement. I will follow up that with more detailed questions. *

(1450) The information that he has put on the record, that it is going to be approximately 17,000 units that is currently in the CMHC administered portfolio, that is a little bit more than I had thought that it was. So I am curious when he said that this is going to influence the entire future management of Manitoba Housing Authority, and I am curious to get into a little bit more detail about what that means.

1192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 I guess, generally, I think that it is not given the recognition that it is due, the very large asset that we have in terms of the public resources invested into housing, social housing, public housing, and I think that most families would recognize that housing is their largest expense, and it is very important to families. The minister has sort of alluded to recognizing the effect that housing has on communities, on families, on individuals, and yet I am concerned that that is not necessarily reflected in this budget.

I am concerned that the government does not seem to really have a plan or a vision in terms of how housing can be used to alleviate the growing gap in terms of income levels in Manitoba, the gap and the increase in poverty, the disparity in the standard of living that has continued to grow under this government in the province of Manitoba. You know, there are some improvements, too, in the area of housing on the economic side of things with an increase in housing starts, but I think there is a continued deterioration in the quality of housing for the majority of people in the province.

I will get into some detail about some of the internal changes in the department. I understand that there has been a lot of activity in dealing with personnel. I am concerned about the staffing reductions and the fact that a number of positions have not been filled that I think are crucial, and I do not understand why there is a continuing erosion in some of those key positions. Particularly when I was talking about the increase in the disparity, I wanted to mention that just in this budget alone there is almost three quarters of a million dollars being eliminated just from the rent supplement programs.

Those were issues that I have raised in the House today and yesterday in Question Period, that overall the budget has been reduced by 7.4 percent. It is over $3.5 million, and almost a million dollars of that has come out of the rent support program. So I am concerned about the way that those programs have been underutilized, and, again, it just does not seem that the government has really tried to assist families by promoting those programs. So we will get into that in a little bit more detail. I am particularly concerned about the area of research and policy development in the department.

It seems like that division has particularly been hard hit by the staffing reductions, and I find that is kind of ironic when we are in the middle of this major negotiation with the federal government, and that is one of their responsibilities. is federal-provincial co-ordination.

The minister in his opening statement has also talked a lot about the challenges for the elderly who rely on social housing and public housing in the province and that we have an aging population, and I am concerned that there has not been, I do not think, any real housing needs assessment done for the province, and that is also one of the concerns I have about the research and planning area being reduced as the government has just embarked on this program in principle.

They are drafting legislation for the city's tax rebate for new home construction. but it is all single-family dwellings. and I am concerned that that is not necessarily where the greatest need is in Winnipeg and Manitoba for new housing. It is housing for seniors. and as the minister has said, they are looking for a variety of services attached to their housing. I know in my own constituency there are four apartment blocks on Plessis Road that were not built as seniors housing. They were constructed ju st as regular apartment blocks.

Some of them are being converted to condos, but they are almost entirely filled with seniors, and I know that in certain areas there is a real need for seniors housing. I am concerned that while they are going ahead with agreements with the city to develop more single-family dwell ings, they are not giving enough attention to co-ordinating with the Department of Health and to really looking at a broader range of housing to meet the needs of aging seniors. This is something that they may think they are dealing with with one pilot project.

I know last Estimates I spent quite a bit of time in dealing with the problems the department is facing of trying to fill the vacant suites in its seniors apartments with mental health patients who are now outpatients released from some of the mental health institutions, and that has been sort of an ongoing difficulty. So I am concerned that while they are perhaps undertaking one small pilot project, that really there is not the broader attention being given to how Manitobans now can have their needs addressed in terms of housing, particularly for seniors.

April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1193 We will get into some of the details, as well, about the ongoing problems with management of an aging housing stock that is managed by the Manitoba Housing Authority. I have had brought to my attention some of the points the minister has raised in his opening statement about the slowness with which his Housing Authority has moved in terms of energy conservation and water conservation and to look at some purchasing and how cost savings are being realized in the whole area of managing the finances for the Manitoba Housing Authority.

So with that, I think I will just end off and ask the minister to invite the staf f to the table so we can get at it. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the honourable member for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department, and, accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staf f to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff present. Mr.

Reimer: Joining us at the table is the Deputy Minister Mr. Bill Kinnear, Mr. Henry Bos from our financial department, Mr. Ron Fallis from the Manitoba Housing Authority, Joan Miller, our policy analyst, and Linda McFa dyen from Research and Planning. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the minister for those introductions and we would now proceed to line 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $576,800. Ms. Cerilli: I guess I just want to clarify with the minister if it is okay with him if we take a similar approach as we did last year where I think we had a more wide-ranging discussion, not necessarily just going line by line. I am also doing that considering some of my colleagues I know want to come and ask some questions related to their constituency dealing with Housing. So I want to sort of leave it open for them to be able to come in as they are able to. So I would appreciate that.

I know that last year we were at the tail end of Estimates, and I wanted us to get up early this time so we could get the consideration that is warranted for this department and get the time in. So I am just wondering if you would consider that. Mr. Reimer: I have really no problem in sort of having an open discussion on the department.

I think the member should recognize that I have limited people at the table with me right now for resource for questions, and there are some questions that may be asked that the proper staff or the proper information may not be here with us right now because of the fact that we will be moving back and forth throughout the whole department. I would think if she is agreeable that we can possibly find the information for her, relay it to her at a further time, that is possible.

I know I had that arrangement with the member for Wellington in Urban Affairs committee of Estimates and when I told her that I did not know the answer, all of a sudden she brought that up to me as a point of not knowing what was going on in my department, and I found that kind of discouraging that she would do that, with the fact that I had explained at the beginning of the Estimates in Urban Affairs that if the person was not here I may not be able to give her the answer. But I am sure the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) recognizes the situation that we are into right now.

Other than that, we certainly can move throughout any part of the Estimates process. *

(1500) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Just for clarification, is there agreement of the committee to have a general discussion with regard to the Estimates of the Department of Housing? [agreed] Ms. Cerilli: I just want to, further to that, clarify, what appropriation would there be staf f that you would call to the Estimates that are not here? Maybe that will help me sort of organize myself. Mr. Reimer: I am only speculating that in case the research that the staff has brought forward with them at

1194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 this time may not be in the books that they have for it, and to get a specific answer they may not have the availability of that information, and that way we can bring it forth at a later date. I would not want to give speculative answers to the member or have staff feel that they had to respond to a question not knowing the full extent of what is implied by the answer. Ms.

Cerilli: I am just wanting to clarify this, because I guess for some of the larger departments in the government like Health or Education where there are a real variety of branches, I think that the ministers will go more line by line because they will only bring the staff for those appropriations that are at the beginning so that they do not have to have all the staff sit and wait when they are not necessarily going to be involved. So I thank you for that clarification. I think that I will start off though with some questions about Executive Support and the staffing.

This is the area that is dealing with personnel services. One of the things I guess first of all is, I am not quite clear on how the department has a relationship between Housing, Urban Affairs, the Seniors Directorate and the Manitoba Housing Authority. I am not sure if in the last year's Estimates it was reported in the same way, that personnel services for all of those departments are dealt with by the Executive Support through the Ministry of Housing.

So is that a change or is that something that has always been that way and I just did not notice it the way that it is laid out this time in the Estimates booklet? Mr. Reimer: Yes. It has been pointed out that the chain of command in the reporting process is still the same. It is just that the schematics in the comparisons between the two charts from April of '96 and April of '97 appears different, but the reporting mechanism for personnel service still reports as indicated through the chain of command, if you want to call it, on the organization chart. So there is really no difference. Ms.

Cerilli: What I am wanting to clarify though is if essentially what is happening here is Urban Affairs, the Seniors Directorate, have no personnel department or branch of their own, that it is all handled through this Ministry of Housing. Mr. Reimer: This was part of the reorganization that came about a few years ago in trying to bring the efficiencies of instead of having each department have its own personnel services and financial admittance services, that being of a smaller nature as pointed out by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that these departments could amalgamate and utilize the same resources.

So this is part of the reasons why each department does not have a definitive line through the personnel services or the financial administration services. So it is more or less a matter of efficiencies because other than the Seniors Directorate, Housing and Urban Affairs work out of the same building. Ms. Cerilli: Okay. That is just sort of basic clarification then. Dealing then with some of the staffing changes that are occurring in the department. how many staf f have either resigned or been let go from the department in the last year. since the last Estimates? Mr.

Reimer: For the sake of putting a number on it, the number is nine different positions, or people are not there, either through retirement, or some have quit, and some have been replaced or are no longer with us. I know that some of them. in fact I know for a fact that one of them that quit has gone to B.C.. our personnel man, Gary Charles. Nine people. Ms. Cerilli: That was actually going to be one of my questions, because I notice on the bottom here that you deal with 650 to 700 employees, but that does not include the 300 or so with the Manitoba Housing Authority. Is that correct?

So this would actually, for the entire department, be over I ,000? Mr. Reimer: No. Ms. Cerilli: No. So I guess I am interested in knowing totally all the staff, both with the Housing Authority and with the department itself, how many have either resigned or retired or been fired? Mr. Reimer: The number that has been referred to, between 650 and 700 employees, are the personnel that are in the Department of Housing, the Department of Urban Affairs, the Seniors, the MHA, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Vital Statistics - -

, April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1195 agency and the company's office. So those are the areas that personnel services deal with, and they deal in various departments, some of them that I do not have the control of. Ms. Cerilli: So just to clarify then, how many people are we talking about that are working in the housing area that I am the critic for, including the Housing Authority and the Department of Housing? Mr. Reimer: That number is between 300 and 350 people. * (15 10) Ms. Cerilli: Is it safe to say then there are a little bit more than nine that have either quit or retired from that pool?

Mr. Reimer: One of the problems in giving exact numbers is that in the MHA through our caretakers and maintenance people we have about 275 in that area, but there is about a 15 percent turnover rate of people coming and going or quitting. So it is hard to give a definitive number as to what it is today, because of the fact that, like I say, it is a changing number because of just natural turnover and some that move on or quit. So that number would be approximately 275 people. Ms. Cerilli: So then how many of the individuals that have either resigned or been let go come from management? Mr.

Reimer: I guess I have to look at the two sides, whether it is MHA or Housing. Ms. Cerilli: Both. Mr. Reimer: In looking at both, probably about 10 people. Ms. Cerilli: How many of those 10 positions are still vacant? I know that the Clients Services person is still in an acting position. Mr. Reimer: The person that I alluded to previously, Mr. Gary Charles, who was the tenant relations officer, I believe was his title, that person who took over that location is on sick leave right now. So that is why there is no indication of a person in there. So that is where that fits in.

Personnel Services, where Roger LaFl eche was before, he quit and went to another company here in Winnipeg, and we have seconded a lady, Ms. Sophie Gaska from I, T and T, to fill that position. Ms. Cerilli: So it sounds like at least about half of those positions are still vacant, and this is, I guess, one of the reasons I am asking these questions, is I am kind of concerned that there has been a very what I would call large turnover in management, starting with even not too long ago we had a new Deputy Minister.

So I am wanting to see some explanation for that, both for the large turnover in senior management, as well as for why so many of these positions are not yet filled. Mr. Reimer: I guess it is part of what the member alluded to, some restructuring within the department, and I think that it is a healthy reassessment from time to time that you go through in trying to utilize some of the people who have been in positions and try to move people into various components of the department and move to better utilization of personnel.

It is part of a restructuring that we are trying to implement in the Department of Housing, and one of the major components is trying to get a better sense of the purpose and role of Manitoba Housing with the government and the fact of trying to get the individuals, the staff, the tremendous assets that we have m personnel in our department, to better utilize them.

We are in the process of giving more responsibility and delegating decision making on a bottom-up type of analysis of our various departments and getting everybody involved, in a sense, with the budgetary process and with the decision-making process, so that there is a sense of contribution within the department to some of the goals that have been set out by the department in the sense of what type of direction they want to take the Housing department.

I have had very good results from our department, and I will go on record right now as saying that I am very proud of our Department of Housing and the personnel that we have working there in some of the

1196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 1997 things and the efforts that they do on a strictly voluntary basis in the sense of trying to satisfy the clients' needs. One just has to go down to 185 Smith and look at the tremendous response we had att that building during the flood that happened there a couple of weeks ago in which the water main broke in front of the building and flooded it not once but four times in about a three-day period. It was incredible the amount of time and effort and commitment that the staff of Manitoba Housing put forth in trying to assist the tenants of 185 Smith.

The basement was flooded with eight feet of muck and goo and shut down everything and the staff responded almost instantaneously, and it was not within just their eight-hour shift. A lot of employees spent 8, 10, 12, 14. 16, 24 and even longer hours in trying to come to a resolve for it.

So I think that it shows that there is a very strong element of responsiveness and personal pride in the department, and I feel that I should foster that in any way I can and try to look for the quality assets of the people involved for movement within the department, and sometimes it means that some people decide that they do not want to be part of that movement or they seek other avenues of recourse for job employment and other people feel that they want to be more involved with the process of change that we are trying to implement in Housing.

So there has been a restructuring, as the member pointed out, but I am very positive in the direction that we are taking and very, very supportive of the staff and the management that I have in place right now that they can do the job and even do the job better. So I think that it is just, like I pointed out, it is a positive initiative for our government, and we are also looking at having staff meetings. We have had meetings in various sectors all across the province, not only here in Winnipeg, because the member is well aware that we have offices in Portage and Brandon, Selkirk, Gimli. We have met with staff.

We have met with the executive. We have brought forth resolutions and questions that we feel that they can address and, more importantly, they come back with solutions of being involved. So we talk about, and I maybe mentioned the Winnipeg office primarily, but the staff that we have in all of our regional offices are doing I think a very, very commendable job in trying to come forth with their good, sound policy for the social housing that we have in Manitoba.

It means some changes, but I think that we have found that we have had more positive response by far as to what we are doing than the old status quo and laissez faire attitude. *

(1520) Ms. Cerilli: Just to try and focus in right now, even though the minister covered a very broad spectrum of issues in his answer. I am just trying to focus in right now on the staffing in the department and the changes in the staffing, and the minister is saying that that is reflecting some change in direction that is in process, that they are going through these consultations with the staff meetings. and he has also said that some of the positions will become redundant. I am wanting to clarify.

I am concerned about a couple of the areas. the fact that the tenant relations management position as well as one of the co-ordinator positions with tenant relations continue to be unfilled, and this is an area that directly bears on the kind of services that are provided through the Manitoba Housing Authority. So on the one hand you are saying that you want to improve client services in relation to the tenants and deliver a better service and then. on the other hand, those are the very areas where you have vacancies. I do not know how you can explain that.

I am wondering if that is one of the areas that is going to become redundant. This is one of the areas that in past Estimates I have tried to make the case for maintaining the staff that are working with tenant relations. So I am wondering if some of those positions as well are vacant, the very front line people who work in tenant relations, because that was one of the other vacancies that I was aware of.

So just first of all in that one area of tenant relations, and I understand that this is with the Manitoba Housing Authority, but I am wondering then too, are they involved in this consultation that is going on with the staff, or is that just with the Housing department people? Mr. Reimer: Yes, I can say unequivocally that the tenant relations officer is something that I found to be

April 9, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 1197 very. very helpful and a tremendous asset in the department, and it is not our intent to eliminate that position.

If anything, I think that there is an opportunity for an individual-he or she who goes into that particular sector is going to have a real challenge because I am a firm advocate that individual tenants associations can play a tremendous and a positive role in our public housing, and any way that we can foster that type of attitude and utilize a tenant relations officer to encourage that, they have my support because I think that there is an opportunity for the association itself to take charge, if you want to call it, or take ownership of its particular complex or cluster of units or whatever it is to come forth with some very, very positive initiatives.

I alluded in my speaking notes to Gilbert Park, and I have used that scenario quite a few times in other speaking engagements that I have been involved with, and I repeat it in the sense that it is a good news story only because of the fact that it is the people who get involved and the people who make it happen.

So the tenants relations officer will be a very vital part of any type of direction or redirection in which this department will be going because it just includes itself in any type of decision making as to how to make the department and how to make relationships with our clients more beneficial that we do have a strong person in that position. So we have no intention of eliminating that position. If anything, we would possibly try to enhance it in the sense of trying to make it known that we encourage tenants associations. We support them financially on a per capita basis per complex.

I am not sure exactly how much the money is per head, but we find a very great value in that. Ms. Cerilli: So how long has it been since these positions have been vacant, particularly the management positions where there is someone in an acting capacity, and how much longer are some of these positions going to remain vacant? Mr. Reimer: The individual who was involved with tenant relations, Mr. Gary Charles, left in September. In fact, he did such a good job with Manitoba Housing that he got hired away from us to Vancouver by the British Columbia government to go look after their housing tenant relations.

An Honourable Member: City of Vancouver, yes. There he is. Mr. Reimer: There he is in Vancouver; that is where Mr. Charles is. In that particular position, we are assessing in a sense of trying to promote within our department to try to find an individual to fit those capabilities. We have had a few people involved with it. It is a matter of assessment, I guess, that we are going through right now to put someone in that position on a permanent basis. Hopefully, we can get a stability in there in the next while so that there is a person that can be identified as the tenant relations officer.

One other department that has been eliminated is the finance and operations department with the executive director in that department. That has been eliminated. It was part of the consolidation of the Financial and Administrative Services-it became redundant-so there was a vacancy created by that. In all areas, we have looked within the department to bring forth people through other various government sectors. The Personnel services as pointed out, Sophie Gaska has come to us from Industry, Trade and Tourism. In our Research and Planning department, Ms.

Linda McFa dyen was a prior employee with Housing, had the background and experience, gained some more experience with Treasury Board. Here is an example where we felt that we could utilize the services in our department to get the direction that we feel that we can get out of it. So we are building up a team that has the abilities we think to be of great benefit to this for our Housing department. Ms.

Cerilli: Maybe what I am going to do is ju st go through some of the different positions here, because I understand that there have been other reorganizations, particularly starting off with the Winnipeg District and Housing Authority that now it is divided only into two districts the north and south-three districts? I just want to clarify if all those positions are filled or if some of them, it seems like, are still acting. It seems like lately whenever I phone in to your department, I get a

11 98 LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 97 different phone number. I phone in there and all of a sudden I am hooked up to Education, I am hooked up to all these people that do not have the same phone number. The phone book is useless in your department; it is very frustrating. I am wondering then if you can cla rify in the Winnipeg Dis trict who are the senior managers for each of the three areas, and if they are permanent or if they are acting. *( 15 30) (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Reimer: The member was asking for the names and the various sectors here in Winnipeg.

What we have got is, the head of the city of Winni peg is Adrian Deporto. He is acting as the head. Marion Sutherland in Winnipeg 1; Howard Oxer in south Winnipeg. There are two temporary individuals training in the other sector of Winnipeg, which is Winnipeg 2, and also Ron Hall, who looks after all of the rural area. So there are the three areas in Winnipeg and then the rural area. Ms. Cerilli: So three of those six folks are acting, in the Winnipeg area.

Simi larly, over in Cl ient Servi ces-now, actually by the way I was a summer student in that branch at one time on a STEP program way back when-but I am just wondering who currently is managing that area, and is that person there on a permanent basis or is that also acting? Mr. Reimer: The member asked who is in Clie nt Services. The indiv idual there is Blair Bingeman. He is the acting person in that area, because of sickness. Ms. Cerilli: That is still Heidi, but she is ill. Mr. Reimer: That is right. Ms. Cerilli: She has been there a long time. Mr. Reimer: Right. Ms.

Cerilli: You were explaining to me that it is the executive director ofMHA. Is that the position that has been decla red redundant? Mr. Reimer: The one that I was referring to was the executive director in finance and operation, which is in the Department of Housing. The executive director of MHA is still here doing a great job. Ms. Cerilli: Sim ilarly then in the Housing Authority, the other two major divisions there are maintenance and assessment management. Do those two have a permanent person in place, or are there any vacanc ies there, or acting? Mr.

Reimer: In the Maintenance block is Ken Tranborg, and in the Asset Management is Lynn Tilbury. Ms. Cerilli: Are either of those two in an acting capacity, or are they both-[interjection] Mr. Reimer: Full time. Ms. Cerilli: I had better pick up the pace here, or we are going to be here until next week. I guess just to reiterate then and make the point, it does seem like there is an awful lot of change going on throughout the department.

I am not sure if the minister considers 15 percent turnover among the nonmanagerial staff in the Housing Authority to be high turnover, but certainly the changes that are going on ju st in the positions that we have talked about, that is a very high turnover or a high rate of change. This may be because. as the minis ter said, they are going through some redirectio n. but it seems that there has been a long period of ins tabilit y then in this department. and I have asked already and I wonder if the minister could clarif y, when do we see an end to this or when does the mi nister see an end to this?

He said that they are going through a process now of consultation. Is it \vhen that is going to be comple ted. and when can we antici pate that process to be completed? Mr. Reimer: The member should recognize that when I say 15 percent. what I am including in that figure is caretakers. 1 am including maintenance people, and that sector of our Housing portfolio has always experienced a fair amount of constant changeover. People move; people take on a caretaking position for a short-term time period. A lot of times it is just a -

April 9, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 99 matter of choice, that they want to possibly even move within our Housing sector, that they would go from place to place, and they become a statistic in a sense that they quit for awhile and then they come back. So the 15 percent is not abnormally high in a sense. It is a figure that is associa ted with those types of positions that would put a skew on the whole matter of vacancy turnover, and it should not be construed that there is a mass turnover all the time ju st because one particular area has the numbers where it is effective. Ms.

Cerilli: I think that the member for Inkster wants to ask some questions. He said he is going to take about 15 or so minutes, so I am willing to have him ask some questions. *( 15 40) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Thank you to the New Democratic critic. I appreciate the opportunity.

What I was wanting to ask the minis ter is, within the area of Meadows West, there has been a Phase 2 that has been on the books for a number of years, and a couple of years back or I guess maybe it would be around two years ago, the government entered into an agreement with Qualico to develop the Meadows West Phase 2 just north of Old Commonwealth Path, which is in my area. I have a lot of area residents who are curious as to what the current status is with Qualico and the development of the said property. Mr.

Reimer: What the area that the member is referring to is a joint agreement that was signed in July of 19 93 to develop approximately 750 residential lots in approximately 16 3 acres which incl uded 12 4.5 acres contributed by MHRC and 38. 1 acres contributed by Qualico. Qualico would act as the manager on the joint venture, and the net income would be shared proportionately between MHRC and Qualico.

We have not had any indication that there has been any financial activity or any type of direction for joint venture activity to date, and this is as of the end of February of 19 97, so I can only report as to what has been brought up to date to me, that nothing is really happening. I guess part of the reason is that the housing market that has been alluded to over the last little while in Winnip eg has been on a bit of a downer.

Maybe with the new initiative that was brought forth by the City of Winnipeg for tax concessions for new development, it may spur an interest by Qualico to get into the development of their service lots, but it would appear that this is not serviced area yet. The member for Inkster may correct me on that because he would be more familia r with his own constituency.

If there are residential lots that have already been serviced, the new homeowner initiative that was announced by the city and combined with the province and the Home Bui lders' Association may spur activity, but like I say, that program did not pertain to undeveloped land. So if it is not developed, it would not qualif y, but if it is serviced lots it could qualify which could mean that there could be some activity. Mr. Lamoureux: Does the government have any sort of time line for Qualico to develop the 750 lots? Are there any expectations that by a set time they would have those lots completed? Mr.

Reimer: It has been pointed out that under the agreement that was signed in 19 93, there was at that time an expectation that land would be developed, but, as indi cated, with the housing market the way it has been in Winnipeg in the last little while, there was no initiative by Qualico to proceed with it, so nothing has happened. I do not know exactly the time frame as to how long the agreement is for, when the expiry date is.

I can find that out for the member and get it to him because we do not have that particula r piece of paper with us in our briefing books, but we will endeavour to find out the length of the agreement that was signed and when it expires, certainly. Mr. Lamoureux: I would be most definitely interested in finding that out. There are a number of residents, particularly people that live along Marion A venue, Old Commonwealth. Right now there are buffers. It is the field. It is a huge field and they have been anxiously

12 00 LE GIS LATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 97 awaiting. There have been a lot of people waiting to see some additional housing development in that area. Because MHRC entered into an agreement with Qualico, it put some lim itations on housing develo pments or other companies that might be interested in developing in the area. I know that there is supposed to be some sort of a management group that oversees the agreement that was incorporated into the agreement.

I would be most interested in possibly having some sort of a discussion with that if it would be appropriate for an MLA to sit down with that particular comm ittee whenever that committee meets. The primary reason for that is ju st to get a better understanding as a local representative in terms of what their intentions actually are. A number of the people from within the communit y-Meadows West is probably about 950 households currently.

It is felt that if they had these additional 700-plus households increased in the area, we might be able to see a communi ty or a satelli te communi ty centre, possibly the infrastructure of extension of Keewatin which would hook up then to Jefferson. There are a lot of things that are pending that could be very positive for the community as a whole by seeing this area developed. Me as the provincial representative being informed from this-you have to excuse if I do not actual ly know the actual wording-it is some sort of a management comm ittee that adminis ters the deal that the government entered into.

I think it would be beneficial if in fact I could hear direct from them or possibly even meet with the provincial rep that is supposedly sitting on that management comm ittee. Mr. Reimer: What we would have to do, I guess, is look at the terms of reference in the agreement that was signed to find out especially the time parameters involved of how and when that it has transpired. It would seem that the initiative has to come from Qualico, you know, as to whether they want to develop it.

The member brings in legitimate concerns as to how long do they sit on the land before something happens and whether it is an agreement just for the sake of holding up the land. If it is possible that the land is developed and we get a return on it, all the better for the provincial government, because we, as the largest land holder in the package, would naturally benefit more by getting our return of money. Qualico would act as the manager of the joint venture, and they would receive a fee, I am sure, of some sorts as part of the revenues.

What I can indicate to the member is that we will try to endeavour to get more information as to whether there is a time frame.

If there are meetings scheduled, and it is not of a proprietary nature in a sense of financial discussions between Qualico and this government, we can possibly even invite the member to some sort of awareness meeting between Qualico and MHRC as to what the intents are in the sense of keeping you abreast as the member for the area as to what is happening. * (1 550) Everything would revolve around the willi ngness of the partner. specifically Qualico, to have this type of openness in their negotiations. I could not specu late as to what they may or may not say.

I am sure the member would recognize that there is cer tain proprietary information in any type of financial discussions that two partners do not want to have exposed to outside persons. If that is the nature then, what we can do though is we can relate to the member some of the time frames and the parameters of expectations, when it is supposed to happen or if it is going to happen, and when the expiry date of the agreement is. Those we can supply. Mr. Lamoureux: Finally. Mr. Cha irperson, I would appreciate that information.

It would be wonderful if in fact I could meet with the group that the minister is potentially suggesting that might be able to accomm odate me. What I am interested in obviously is ultima tely how it is developed, where they are going to put the lakes. for example, or the mini-ponds. whatever it is that one is going to call it.

There has been somewhat a lack of an overall plan in this area, and to be able to contribute would definitely be beneficial, if not for me directly. at least to meet with some Qualico reps and suggest one or two residents who I know would provide very creative advice and opinions and thoughts in terms of the commu nity. the Meadows West Phase 1, if you like, -

April 9, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 01 and how the two communities could complement each other thereby allowing for better sales of houses and so forth. So I welcome the comm ents from the minister and again appreciate the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) allowing me to put forward questions currently. Thank you. Mr. Reimer: What we could also possibly provide the member with is maybe the names of the people who have been involved on the Qualico end of the scenari o. We can get those names also and provide them for the member. Ms.

Cerilli: I will get back to, I guess, the issue that I was starting to deal with. I started off by talking about the changes in the management level and a lot of the staff turnover that has been going on in the department. I was just getting a chance to go over again some of the information I have had passed on to me from the consultations that the ministry has been having with the staff. There are some trends here, and I am wondering if this is not related to the changes, the redirection, the change in management.

Questions were asked of the staff, what prevents us individually and collec tively from deli vering great performance to our cl ients, and there is a trend where they are saying things like organizational fragmentation prevents effective communi cation and teamwork; sharing resources causes unnecessa ry dupli cation of effort; lack of cl ear and evolving mission statement that is regularly updated; budgetary constraints; lack of consi stent direction; insu fficient use or lack of resourc es; lack of training; lack of information and decision making; lack of authority to make decisions; lack of support; chain of command not defined; some cl ients' needs are beyond their mandate and expertise, which I guess relates to training; clien ts' reluctance and fear to communic ate their needs suggests some problems there; political interference; frustration with all of the above; the way that recent changes were introduced.

This goes on. This is from a number of the different groups that were part of these consu ltations-poor management supervision; manager supervision not available for support; policy procedures not being applied or staff not aware of the policies; bogged down and useless paperwork. It goes on. Another group is saying they are prevented from doing a good job because there is lack of support from management and their peers; there is lack of understanding of the entire operation and what their mandate is; more open communic ation for management and peers; more adequate training.

I am wondering how the minis ter and his department are responding to these concerns. I get compla ints, as I am sure other MLAs do, that not only have Manitoba Housing Authority properties in their constituency, but I guess I may get more compl aints being the critic, but I think this is a serious problem. It is pointing to some serious problems. So, first of all, I am wondering how the minister and his department are responding to this. Mr.

Reimer: The member brings up an excellent area of discussion, because I think what the member is referring to is a lot of the frustrations that the staff had and to a degree still have in trying to come to a resolve on the change that we are trying to impl ement into the-prior to the change that we are trying to implement in the department. I should mention to the member that a lot of this started for the first time when we invited all staff over to the Winnipeg Art Gallery.

What we did there was, we introduced all the staff to the financial picture and the financial impli cations and the departmental responsibilities to all staff in the Housing department.

What it did for the first time, it showed them the magnitude of what they are involved with, the literally tens of mil lions of doll ars that they have a jurisdiction of some sort or another in making decisions as to where money should go, how it is alloca ted, whose responsibil ity it is and everyth ing else like that with the idea of, when I was asked to come forth with my department budget and I was given a figure of it, I in consultation with my deputy said, well, who should be making these decisions really is the staff, the people that are on the front line, the people that are involved with the department, the people that make the decision as to what and how and where we buy things and what and where and how we spend things and where the revenues come through.

12 02 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 97 So we said, well, let us put it on the big screen and give them the opportunity to make the decisions as to how we can hit our budgetary figures. It was tremendously interesting to be at that meeting, because a lot of people for the first time had never seen figures like that before, had never seen the magnitude of what was involved with their department. What we did was, we did not show them or give them our ob jective of what we figured that we wanted out of our budget.

We asked them to go back to your departments and just within yourselves and within your sector and within your group and things lik e that, you come up with where you can save money, as much as you think that you can save. *

(1600) We did that and then we will get together in clu ster groups in sector and we will bring those numbers together and we will analyze them and see what is doable, and we will look at how you feel can save money. Once those figures all came back, I think the figure that they came up with was a saving of approximately -sorry for digressing there just for a second, because I thought it was very important that the number that they came up with was a lot lower than what we had actually had as a budgetary figure for a savings within our department.

It was refreshing to see that there were a lot of things that they figured that they could save money on that we had never even considered. We settled in on a figure of savi ngs of, I think it was around, what, 2 percent, approximately 2 percent. In their analysis they came up with a figure of about between 3 percent and 4 percent that they figured that they could save. We appreciated, you know, the aggressiveness of their analy sis, but we settled with the approximate 2 percent figure. What had started and what we encouraged was the fact of having this bottom-up approach to do an analysis of our department.

So what we have set up is four teams within Manitoba Housing. We have also set up a quality service council to try to look at a lot of the things that the member has talked about, because out of that initial meeting at the Art Gallery, we then went and had various meetings. I think we had about 10 meetings of various groupings of the department.

We asked them to go through various stages of where they figured that they could help their job, how they could help their fellow employee in a service-first type of attitude, not only service to our cli ents that we serve through Manitoba Housing but service to each other within the same department, within the same floor. This is where a lot of the frustrations came out that the member is referring to in the lis ting of concerns that the people have come forth with. It serves as an excellent starting point to try to resolve these problems.

It would be nice if we could wave the magic wand and everyth ing would be satisfied, but it is a tremendous first start to getting the department involved with the bottom-up approach of servicing their clien ts. servicing their customers. and servicin g the people that they serve, not only within our department but how they interrelate with other departments. We would like to correct a lot of the areas that the member has mentioned, and I think that we are onto a very positive first start with this. Ms. Cerilli: The minister did not really answer my question, but he raised another one.

This whole exercise, the consultation. was designed to involve staff in budget consu ltation. You are wanting to find effici encies, make some budget reduct ions. and you want to involve the staff in that process. The minister is nodding. I am assuming he means that is it . In the meantime. they are identifying all of these organizational concerns. management concerns, staff relation concerns, other problems in the department.

I am not sure if that is what the minister is suggesting now that those are a by-product of what this consultation was intended to do, but as the minis ter has acknowledged, there are some serious issues that are being conveyed here. There seems to be a trend through all the different groups that were particip ating in this, all the staff that were partici pating. I am wanting the mi nister to clarify then.

This was initiated as a staff involve ment in the budget exercise, but then what it has turned out to become is staff identifying all sorts of other concerns that they have in the department that deal with admini stration and management. Mr. Reimer: The budget was one part of getting the department involved. It is a very, very signifi cant part -

April 9, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 03 naturally of our department, because we are naturally concerned about any type of parameters that we have to deal with in our budgetary limi tations. The reason that I mentioned the budget part of it was because it was just one area where this type of philosophy and this type of direction had never happened within the department. Also, the fact of having discussions groups and working groups come together for discussion, about 10 groupings of about 10 various meetings, was something else that also had never happened in the department.

It was an ongoing scenario of events, and the budget process was one of them that brought forth what I was alluding to, in a sense, at the Art Gallery, but it is one of the scenarios that we are working with. One of the biggest things is just to have, like I say, the quality service council set up. We have four teams working on trying to work through some of these concerns that the member brought up. We are very involved with this bottom-up approach of trying to get people involved with the decision making and the quality assurances and the Service First program that we have in the department.

So it is a step, there are a series of steps and a series of situations that all fall together as you go through this approach to our department. The budget was just one part of it. Ms. Cerilli: So what is happening then is the minis try is setting up this council within the department that is going to try to address the concerns that are being raised. They are going through some other reorganization. I will deal, first of all, with this committee or council, and I understand there would be some staff who are nonmanagement staff, line staff, that would participate in that too. Is that correct?

How are those people selected? Is that process complete? Mr. Reimer: The service council that I referred to is a wide-ranging council. It is composed of I think it is around 10 to 12 people on that council. It has management. It has line workers, if you want to call it. It has other staff on it. It is a cross-section of people who are on that council who are addressing some of the concerns. Ms. Cerilli: I wanted to know how those people are going to be selected and what the compi lation is and when that council is going to be establis hed. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) * (1610 ) Mr.

Reimer: The council is selected. It is an entity as itself right now. I will just find out the selection process. As mentioned, there are 12 people on the commi ttee; I have been told, four from management and eight from the line workers, if you want to call it. The selection was done by asking people to submit their names who wanted to serve on the committee and then from there, four teams were also developed in addition to these twelve people on the quality service counc il.

So it is people within that have submitted their names that want to be involved plus the four managers that are from the department and the MHA Housing. These are two-year appointments, if you want to call them, with the directions that they are setting up for themselves. Ms. Cerilli: How many total names were submitted from the staff? Mr. Reimer: We do not have the exact number. I am giving her a guesstima te from the department. It is upwards of 60 people that have submitted their names for consideration, approximately. Ms.

Cerilli: So how did the department select, other than the management, eight out of the 60? Mr. Reimer: Yes, this was certainly a bottom-up philosophy of setting up the system because it was done even in regards to the selection of the qual ity service council with the four managers and the other eight individuals to make up the 12 . It was done by an outside person that was seconded to do the selection for this committee. The quality service council then, in setting up their teams of upwards of six people per team, when we have four teams, also utilized some of the names that were brought forth.

These were more or less the initiative of the individuals in the department in picking people to sit on the council, and we went along with the names. Ms. Cerilli: Are any of the names of the people on the council, the eight line staff, are any of them shop stewards? Mr. Reimer: I could not answer that. I do not know whether they were or not. We had people that were

12 04 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 9, 19 97 caretakers right up to management that have been selec ted so. I do not know their affiliation. We can check on that to find out. Ms. Cerilli: I just wanted to make sure that you understand my question. I mean, I am talking about not shop stewards as in a caretaker but shop stewards as representing their bargaining unit with their union. Mr. Reimer: We can find out. I just do not know at this time. I said that word again, I do not know. I should not have said that. Ms. Cerilli: We will find out.

So, I just wanted to clarify though that the mandate for this group. Is it in fact to deal with some of these issues that have been raised through this consulta tion? Mr. Reimer: Most definitely, yes. Tha t is the purpose, and the raison d'etre for it is really to look af ter a lot of those areas that were mentioned by the member and others and new areas too. Ms. Cerilli: This cou ncil that is dealing with all these management and personnel issues, are they meeting already ? Have they met? I mean, what has come out of any of these meetings? Mr.

Reimer: I have been told that there have been four meetings that they have had. They have had discussions regarding the problems that the teams have brought forth for consideration and resolve. So, it is an ongoing and effective council that is already moving with meetings and hopefully come up with some solid recommendations. Ms. Cerilli: I wonder what the time line is for these, if there is some prioritization of some of the concerns that I have put on the record here, if there are some plans that are in place.

I have the time line that was set out for the consultations that were undertaken, but I am wondering if you can tell me any other time line or plan. Mr. Reimer: Yes, as each problem or concern is brought forth, there is a time frame all ocated to it for resolve or for direction, so that there is a system that has been set up for an evaluation as to the effectiveness of it, yes. Ms. Cerilli: And there will be some kind of follow-up consultation process to do some evaluation down the road. Are you planning another meeting at the Art Gallery? Mr.

Reimer: I think that is an excellent sugges tion that the member for Radisson has brought forth. I did not think of that. We will certainly try to encourage any type of co-operation between all levels of management, including the min ister with the staff. Ms. Cerilli: What prompted this whole process? mean, is this something that is occurring in all government departments? I know that there is this Service First office that has been set up for the provincial government. Is Department of Housing one of the first to do this? It seems so. Mr. Reimer: Well.

I guess it is part ofthe so-called if you want to call it management style of the Minister of Housing that is presently there. I am a firm believer in not only dele gating authority but also surrounding myself with the best possible staff that I can get. Decision making on a minis terial level takes an awful lot of confidence in the people that you have around you. I am very fortunate that the team that I am getting around me in Housing right from the caretakers up, if you want to call it. are people who have the conscientious effort of trying to improve this department.

I am a firm believer in bottom-up management. have the opportunity as the minis ter of this department to implement that type of philosophy. I think that the best way to manage a large entity such as this with so many people is to have them part of the decision making. It fits to a degree \vhat the member referred to as the Service First Initiative that has been initiated by this government. * (1 620) I have ju st taken it upon myself through my deputy and through my senior staff to give them the direction that this is what I would like to see happening in my department.

I feel that is the best way that people can be part of the decision making. People can take pride in the decision making, and people can see the results

April 9, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 05 of their decision making, and they can participate in the decision making which is even more important. So I am a firm advocate of trying to get the best people around me, so that I do not have to do any thing. Ms. Cerilli: I will leave that last comm ent alone for the time being.

I have in front of me one of the documents for the Service Fi rst Initiative, Better Methods update, and it talks about, Better Methods is committed to a $5-million government-wide workf orce adju stment program including but not limi ted to retraining, redeployment and job search training. Choices will be tailored to the individual. What does this mean? This $5-mill ion government wide workforce adjustment, is that money that is going to be spent on this Service Fir st program? Is that money that is going to be saved?

I mean, you had said that this whole consultation process was supposed to identify savings in your department. Can you clarify that for me? Mr. Reimer: Firstly, the number that the member mentioned regarding the $5 mill ion, that is not strictly for our department. That is for the 14 ,000 employees of government. The Service First Initiative is meant to, in a sense, look at the best way and the most efficient way of utilizing the manpower and the asset base that we have which are the employees of our department. I can only say that it is a government ini tiative and our department has bought into it.

I can only think that there would be new avenues and new directions and new changes that will come about. I think that by having the-and I am repeating myself -by sa ying that if the employees are part of it and part of the contributory factors of it, change does not become a threat to the employees, it becomes an opportunity for achievement and for contribution. So, I think that our department is one of the departments that is responding to the Service First Initiative on a I feel a very positive manner, and I will encourage it as much as I can within our department to conti

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-22
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 22.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c15525e003a4a9234d5cd7297244d4396809776a

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