,· VOL. 3 NO. 38 PRELIMINARY • I UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THER PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 25, 1978 ,_ . • J

April 25, 1978 Tape 1367 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: }k. Speaker, before I present my petition I wonder if Your Honor would allow to extend sincere congratulations to Premier Campbell of Prince Edward Island in winning the election last night. It just goes to prove, Sir, that Liberalism is alive and well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear! MR. DOODY: They are having a recount. Hang her down for a winner. MR. S.

NEARY: Well the problems of winning, Sir, are much easier to handle than the problems of defeat,as the hon. gentleman will find in the next election. Now, Sir, this is a petition from eighty- one residents in the Gander area in Central Newfoundland and the petition has to do, }k. Speaker, with tne controversal matter of summer cabins. I suppose you could call them summer cabins, Sir. I have never been able to get a proper description of the kind of cabins that the people are talking about. Some of the cabins,! understand,are merely used for hunting ;rhe people who go hunting,some of the cabins, Mr.

Speaker, have a substantial investment in them,$4,000 and $S,OOO.and they could be considered as summer cabins, the same as the hon. l1inister of Consumer· Affairs has a summer cabin up in Topsail Pond and I believe several other ministers have summer cabins. These cabins are the equivalent of some of the cabins that are involved in this ~ontroversy tnat is raging in Central Newfoundland and some of them are - HR. DOODY: Cabins like they have at Ho2ans Pond. MR. S. NEARY: Hogans Pond would be included,the one Mr. Groom had down there and George G.R. Parsons, summer cabins. Mr.

Speaker, some people have cabins who are involved in this contra- versy that are the equivalent of these cabins,and some are merely used, as I say,for shelter for people who go hunting,and some may be just fish stores or fish shacks,! do not know what you would want to call them. ., I . ·I iL l .; I I i I. 'I .. ! I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1367 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: And so there has been a controversy raging now, Sir, for some time. The Minister of Forestry and Agri- culture apparently issued an ultimatum to his wardens to prosecute all those people who were on Crown land and had not .ade an application for the Crown land that they occupied. And I understand,Sir, that under the new regulations and the new legislation that was passed in this House that they had one year to make application and anybody who occupied the land prior to 1957 would be given a deed to the property.

Well,what the minister did not say in his statement, Sir, was that after the one year was up what the consequences were,~d the consequences were, of course,an ultimatum from the government and summons- were issued, Mr. Speaker, and a number af, people were hauled into court like common criminals and they were fined $200 •. Apparentlythis was the mini~ fine.

Now I do not know,perhaps the ~~nister of Justice can clarify that,$200 or a jail term.But anyway it started a savage controversy, Sir, and the people are very unhappy about this situation.And as I understand it, there have been no directions gone ~ut to lay off these people or give them a chance to get their application in,which would,incidentally,cost them $25 and if the application ts not approved they have to sacrifice the $25. So eighty-one people, Sir, have sent this petition to me·. "We the undersigned are very displeased with the recent announcement r~garding cabins and Crown land fees and fines.

Where is the government going to stop?they ask in their petition -"Every yea:r sometlling from our natural habitant is taken away from us. One would think that the next step by the government is to take away or tax the ai:r we breathe around us,and we ask that this latest situation-we ask that the latest release on cabins and Crown lands and fees be with- drawn and abolished." So Hr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in supporting the p~ayer of this petition and ask that it be laid upon the table of the House, Sir, and referred to the Committee to which it relates.

I meant to mention it ~o the han. gentleman before the House met.! met the han. gentleman,! was talking to the Minister of Justice at the time, and it slipped my mind.Dtherwise I would have advised the han. gentleman '· I" ! ~

April 25, 1978 Tape 1367 Mll. S • NEARY: In advance as a matter of coillmQn courtesy that I us go"ing to lay this petition upon the table of the Rouse. But I believe the people who signed the petition have already been in touch with the han. gentlelll@.,and did not get any DW - 3 satisfaction,as well as the bon. gentleman's colleague,the Minister o.f Forestry and Agriculture.. . ~ey did not get any satisfaction and now they have CQ!IIe to the court of last :resort, ·the court of r I !' I , .. T t i

April 25, 1978 Tape 1363 EC - 1 HR. NEARY: last_appeal, myself and the Opposition, and I do hope, Sir, that other members on both sides of the House will support the prayer of this petition and stop harassing these people who own cabins in Central Newfoundland. t!R. SPEAY.:.EP.: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. l1R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition as presented by the hon. the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary).

I have, as one member of the House, received a · fair number of representations by individuals 9 both in the district that I represent in the House and · many other districts in the Province, and as I understand, in the absence of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture 9 that whole system of summer'cabins and temporary cabins and so on is now being reviewed ·by the Department of Forestry and Agriculture_and that a statement concerning it is imminent. It is a complex set of circumstances. As I understand it, Mr.

Speaker, what the people who signed that petition are most upset about, at least the representations that have come to me, concern the fact that many temporary structures and dwellings that individuals have are also coming under the ambit of this regulation, For example, Mr.

Speaker, an individual in rural Newfoundland who has almost only a bough house, a shack, a small structure,if you can call it & structure, thirty or forty miles in the interior, in the wilderness- or even ten miles or five miles,for that matter- who uses that structure three or four times in the year to snare rabbits or to go hunting for a moose or caribou or whatever, or trapping, that that structure is coming under the • ! '• regulations in the same way as a full-fledged, permanent

April 25, 1978 Tape 1368 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: summer cottage dwelling would of, you know, thirty by forty or twenty by thirty or whatever; which many people,of course, are doing t~ese days. That is number one, and that is, I am sure, an iss~e of great concern to a lot of individuals who are outctoorsmen and who wish to continue to prosecute what they have been doing for hundreds of years.

And secondly, another group of people who are being injuriously affected by the regulations as they are now being applied deals with the individuals who are also outdoorsmen but who reside or have cabins or temporary structures near the seashore and do some jigging or other outdoor activity associat~d with the ocean ~ And they have temporary dwellings on t~e rocks~ almost, on the seashore, and they are also coming under the ambit of this regulation,which does seem to be rather unfai~ Md representations that have been made to the Minister of Forestry and ~griculture by, no doubt, hon. gentlemen on the other side as well as han. gentlemen on this side,have led the minister, I think, to review the whole policy, and,as I understand it, there is to be a statement concerning same in the next few days.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra ~ova. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support MR. LUSll: this petition, having received several complaints from my own district relative to the same thing, people protesting the fees and the fines issued by Crown Lands re two people who are presently apparently contravening ~he particular pieces of legislation or regulations as they refer to cabins. The han. the minister informs us that the government will be taking a look at this,and I am delighted to hear this. And I certainly hope that the government will come up with legislation that is less offensive to the people concerned.

April 25, 1978 Tape l368 EC - 3 NR . LUSH: The hon . the Qember for LaPo:i.le m.entioned he did not know exa.ctly what kind of cabins that the people were referring to or what ~ind of cabins that the regulations we re indeed referrjng to . :-m. NEAR'! : There are all k inds. HR.

LUSH: Righ t, there are all kinds , really, and the bon. mini ster men tioned the type for ... - logg ing and by the seashore, and in the last few years there have also been a large nu~ber of peop l ~ building cabins just purely for recreational purposes - going ~p into the ponds and down by the seashore, and they are not expensive structures, just in out of the ~eather - where they can take their families ~nd enjoy a little sunshine and g et out and wade in t he water a little bit.

And there are two things that 1 am sure that the government is trying to achieve with chese regulations, one, mainly to map out the Crotv .n lands of this Province. And I do not ob ject to that: l think that the go vernment need to know, to get a picture of the Crown lands of this Province and get it allocated properly, but I do not thin k t hey need to go to t he va ri ous k inds of steps that they are now following. I t hi n k it can be less offensive and more satisfactory to everyone concerned. .. w

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1369 AH-1 HR. LUSH: So I hope that when the government does come up with legislation that they come up with something that is more progressive and more satisfactory to all of the people concerned,and legislation that will not not _affect or prevent our people from following their traditional lifestyle of hunting, fisl1ing, logging or whatever and more recently for recreational purposes.

I have said many times when speaking to these petitions that in a Province where we have so much unoccupied land,and so much available land,I do not think we need to have these regulations that will bleed anti be a fir..ancial burden on the ordinary people of this Province. So I am glad to hear the minister say that the govermnent is lookiJ:.g at this and I do hope that they will come up with legislation that is satisfactory to the people of this Province. }JR. SPEAKER: Han. member for rlay of Islands followed by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. HR. WOODROW: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad,first of all,to support the petition presented by the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary),It is nice to know that he is coming up with something constructive.

Not.; only yesterday I talked with about at least twenty-five or thirty residents who have cabins along the Lark Harbour road on a beach - I just forget what the beach is called now- and they have cabins on the land probably no more than twenty-five or thirty or forty feet, and some of them,for example,are fish shacks, they just go there to spend a Sunday afternoon or the like.And they outlined to me that they will have to pay not only twenty five dollars to hold on to the land for a year,but also the council in York Harbour will be charging them twenty-five dollars as well-or rather twenty dollars, that is what the fee is.

Also people from the Benoit's Cove area, they also have to pay to the council in Benoit 1 s Cove as well, so it would be very expensive for them to k~ep this little shack on the beach or on Lark Harbour road. However,I am delighted to know,;as it has been outlined by the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), that the government --' ' ~ I I .I -4 I l. I I ' I i -·.

April 25 ,197 8 Tape No. 1369 AH-2 HR. LUSH: are going to come up with some legislation to help those people preserve their tradition. There is not much more I can say because it would be a repetition of what he was saying anyway, what I would say•:So I fully support the petition from the member for Lal'oile (Mr. Neary). MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. HR. FLIGHT: ~rr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition and Mr. Speaker, I,too,am happy and we are happy to hear the minister indicate that a statement is forthcoming. But personally I am tired of hearing that, ·~. Speaker.

A .statement has been forthcoming clarifying this situation since the thing became an issue. Going back three weeks ago the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture was indicating that he intended to clarify the government's position with reeards to this • . ~d he indicated that they recognized some injustices here and he would be issuing a statement to clarify this situation and to stop the injustice that we know is going on. Now the statement has not come yet,and personally I am wondering when it is going to come.

A lot of people are going through a great deal of anxiety because of the c~lous and indifferent attitud~of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture in this particular sit<J.ation, Mr. Speaker. To give so~ credibility to that statement of callo 11sand indifferent treatment,~lere is a letter, Mr. Speaker, that was signed by the petitioners that signed the petition my hon. friend just presented and one passage, one line from the letter reads• ''We have already sent some four or five hundred names to the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, Mr.

Edward Maynard,but have yet heard nothir ,g on it!' Now that is callous and indifferent, Mr. Speaker, The minister is not only getting asked about ti1is situation in the House, he is getting representation from the people and abviously doing nothing about it. Another important issue we should consider here, ~rr. Speaker, when ~e talk about what is going on now with these cabins, thP hnn. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, r whether the minister or his ·i I I < I

APRIL 25, 1978 Tape 1369 AH-3 MR. FLIGHT : predecessor issued an instruction to the Depa,rtmimt of Crown Lands Division to ptit a freeze,somel;ime within this pas.t year or year an~ a half, to put a freeze on the processing of land for cabins. Pr.iority was goiug to be given to residential and c.ommercisl land applications because they were running a year or two years behind. So all the people wbo wanted to apply,there waa a freeze on0 Crown Lands Division were told not to b.other with Crown land cabin applications. And now we get a situation where they are given a year,and after a certain date hauled into court.

How indifferent to people's feelings can you get, ~. Speaker? !nether thing that has to be considered here is that since I J - I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1370 PK - 1 .Mr. Flight: all the cabins, you know, hunters lodges, rabbit snare cabins, fish cabins·comes under this particular regulation. After the peop_le ;ue told, after the applicants are told that their land indeed has been processed or the application has been processed and approved, then it is going to cost them $400 or $500 for a survey, as the m~nister well knows, and some of those surveys could be twenty-five miles removed from any town. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is a ridiculous situation and the minister - furthermore, another point that I keen harnin2 on is that now we are into a position where a Newfoundlander has got to pay $25 for the right to apply for a piece of land,because if that application is rejected, and it might well be for any reason; that $25 is not refundable. So as a result of this reguation we are into a situation where it now costs ,'the Newfoundlander $25 for the right to apply. And, Mr.

Speaker, this thing has gone on along enough, and, Sir, I think, it well behooves the minister now to get up and tell us when he is going to clarify this situation and relieve the anxiety that this situation in Crown Lands is causing a lot . of Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition which was presented by my close friend 7the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I did speak to him for a couple of minutes just now.

He did not mention the petition, but be that as it may, he refers to the petition as coming from the Gander area. And for the information of the House,! would like to say that if one were to take a set of dividers and place one end down in the Town of Gander and establish a circle in a radius of fifty miles, we would take in a population of about 70,000 or 75,000 people. And I am sure that the petition represents the area encompassed within that circle. It is a problem, Mr.

Speaker, in the meantime, and one which I have discussed with my colleague here~heart to heart, and chest to chest, as we have heard in this bon. House in the past, and toe to toe in agreei~g on I . i I < t

April 25, 1978 Tape 1370 PK - 2 Mr. H. Collins: what has to be done. I am of the opinion, I think of the right opinion,too, in that there are some people who have been a little overzealous in terms of applying what was a pretty good rule in terms of the establishment of Summer cabins, sometimes a total year residential cabin, but the people who are concerned, Mr. Speaker, are the fellows who like to go up in the woods,like myself in the Fall of the year,and put down a few snares, and catch a few rabbits, build what is commonly. referred to as a lean-to sometimes.

A lot of people in Central Newfoundland have a lot of energy and they go a little bit beyond that. What is required for one night,a lean· to, they put up a fairly substantial little cabin. They use it for fishing in the Summer and so on and so forth. Some people around the c~ast;Carmanville and Gander Bay and down the Bonavista North Loop area, also use them for lobster fishing, Sir. But I am sure that the minister has become sensitized to the problem, and he has promised me that within• the next few days he is go be making a Ministerial Statement, and he is going to clear the whole matter up once and for all.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, I thought the minister, Sir,was going to rise and tell us whether he agreed or not because 90 the statements made on his behalf by his colleagues concerning this petition. MR. NOLAN: He is sensitizing. MR. W. ROWE: He may be desensiized by the lunch hour. Sir, I rise to support this petition. In doing so, Sir, I have to say that what has occurred here today is enough to boggle the mind of anybody.

We have had two ministers rise and support a petition presented by my hon. friend,which in effect,directly and indirectly and by its accompaning letter,denounced a Minister of the Crown for his insensitive - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: - and foolish, and silly regulations regarding these cabins and the use of Crown land for these cabins, Mr. Speaker. And we had two ministers rise who have now said that they understand certain • I ..

.April 25, 1978 Tape 1370 PK - 3 Mr. W. Rowe: regulations certain changes are going to be made in the regulations, they are not quite sure,they are going to work on the minister and so on. Sir, I have never heard the like of it ~ A government, Sir, which shows absolutely no solidarity whatsoever !

I am glad,however,tbat the pressure which has been brought on the government, by my colleagues here and the general public . to repeal these useless and senseless and irritating regulations - a thorne in the side of the public, Sir. that the pressure has now borne some fruit and we are going to see, I hope, these regulations repealed or amended in an appropriate way.

I would however, Sir, like, and I ask the minister directly, 1 would like to see the minister r~se in tchis Bouse and let us know whether in fact what his colleagues have said on his behalf is true, that people who are involved in the toils of the law as a result of these silly regulationS are now going to find that the regulations are going to be changed and amended.hope.fully retroactively,and that I -I .I '-• _I I

f:,nil 25, 1978 Tape No. 1371 '1M - 1 l'R. H. ROl·!E: nobody in fact is going to suffer as a result of them. ~./ill the minister let the House know if what his colleagues have said is true on the subject? SO~IE HON. :t1E}1BERS: iiear, hear! ~-IR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. minister, I would •relcome to the House on behalf of all han. members from the Rural District Council of Triton, Jim's Cove and Card Harbour, Mayor Winsor and Councillors 3udgell and Fudge. S0}'E HO"N • HE ~!BERS : Hear, hear! ~ . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestr, ' and Agriculture. HR. MAYNARD: }!r.

Speaker, I stated in the House in the past r,•eek or so that we are reviewing the regulations that ~•ere made by Cabinet- not by a minister or two ministers, made by Cabinet. We have realized, as we have in the past in some cases, that there are some problPms with the re~ulations and we are willing to chan ~ e them, . and I orill be outlining the c..'langes that <~e can make within the next two or three days. Until such time as I have made the chan g-es that are necessary and made my statement in the House,there is really nothing else that I can say about it. 'IR • '-'.

ROWE : Some people co not lmo•r ''here they stand. SOME HON • ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh! :~.. SP!!:AKER: 'E:1e han. member for Tri::tit y - :l ay de Verde . ~~r. Spea!.~ er, I !Jeg leave to pr~ser:t ·~ petition on be:1alf of fifty-nine fis'.le=en of t:le co=.u::it:; of ~.eci Ha().J Cove in the di>trict of Trinity - Ba:~ de VerC:.e, Sir. T:1e pr~.yer of the pc.~it:.on reads :i.S follot-:s;-3ir, it is ~~ct strictly in accorrlance with what ~our Ronour requesteC: earlier but tl\e :-.. et-~s h.:1s not gotten up to ::e.G. ~ie!ad Gave yat.

"~·!e, the t1.11dersis::1ed residents of RaC:: Eead Cove in t:1e electoral district of Trinity - 3ay de Verde, do ~1ereby petitior. the }louse of Assesbly of :<e~-lfoundla."""ld a..'"ld La"brador I l- ~ .

April ::s, 1978 Tape ~lo. 1371 :-r:: - 2 ~~. F. P.mlE: "Unless .suc!1. repairs are marie prior to the commenceme:1t of this coming fishine season, it would be impossible to prosecute t!'te fishery in our cor.-li!lunity. He do urgently and sincerely requast taat'so~e action be taken immediately and that the required repairs to tile said slipw<:.y be done without delay." 'Now, ~fr.

Chairman, tilere are 131 voters in Red Head Cove,so these fifty-nine fisl1ermen represent virtually every ~~orking ma."1 in that particular colllll'unitY, . because it is strictly a fis!'ting co=unity as many people •1oulcl lmm.". ."..."1cl during tile ~·linter there were ~~o severe storr..s tl1a t caused dana:;;e in seven cc:-..munities in tl1e district of Trinity - Bay C.e Verde anc caused d=age to '•>harves and slip¥rays. Hmv Red Read Cove is one of the communities where the slip11ay cones under provincial jurisC.iction.

In the other co=unities,"'ost of the fish ha."1dling facilities, the slipT.rays and the ~;harves come under the federal jurisdiction. .'.ud I might add, Sir, that work is already unden.;ay in these other cotiliiiU."1ities in the repair of these wharves and these slipl~ays in ti= for the fishing season,which is virtually at this very mot!!ent.

Sir, im:r.1ediately upon learning of the probler.:,I wrote t::e Assistant Deputy Y.inister (Facilities) cf the provincial govern;::ent, this was in January,and I brought this matter to his attention =d pointed out to the Assistant Deputy t;inister, Sir, that t:1e main problem in Red Head Cove, aside from the fact that the slip>vay has ileen buried in rocks ;:nd planf-.s need. to be replaced, the major preble!:: is the fact that the toe of the sliDTvav. l·Thich is app•oxi'"ately thirty feet lon:r ,has been CO<:!pletely •dped out a."1d needs to be completely replaced. )!m.; in a reply, Sir, that I got fron t;1e Assistant i)er>uty ~1inis ter of Fisheries (facilities) that is, I am informed that, "In the case of the Red Head Cove slip"'ay it is doubtful whether we will replace the outer toe

section of the structure as it is obviously i::rpossible to keep it in place. :tm.;ever, 1ve •,.'ill assess this situation after ,.,e receive our tec!1nician' s report." ,.

April 25, 197& ID!- 3 ~'R . F. RO:ffi : ~ ow, Sir, I had t h ree fisbe~ fror:: my district visit ey office this t!!Drniar; anci it is their understanding n ow - not;,.±ng :las been done , by the way, a..'1ci the fisr.ing seas~n has virtually starte d ; and hen I visite d P-2<! !:i.eaci Cove t 1ere a couple of oonths ago I sa.;: a number of boats, Sir , on the shore cleavec open, cleavec ~de open , because of t he fact c:1at t =<ey \vere comin g in 1i'it !l a bi t of a sea on and -..hen you :tave - no t the crest of t h e •.-H!Ve bu t the trou gh of t h e wave. "ilhen you are i .r 'I ' •'

April 25. 1978, Tape 1372, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: in the trough, obviously, the boat is coming in with a load of fish, you go straight into the slipway with no toe and your boat is cleaved open. Two or three boats, Sir, with loads of fish were split wide open last year, lost their fish, almost lost the members of the crew. Obviously the boats have been lost and cannot be replaced by any programme under the federal or the provincial jurisdiction at the present time.

So, Sir, I would ask if the Minister of Fisheries would take this matter under advisement immediately and if he would be kind enough to get the appropriate officials of his department to investigate immediately the situation in Red Head Cove with a view to completely repairing not just the slipway itself, but the toe of the slipway 1 which is the major problem there. Because if that toe is not replaced immediately this fishing community is going to lose an awful.lot of income. The community is completely dependent upon the fisheries.

There are sixty fishermen there and if the slipway is not repaired the fishermen will not be able to get their boats in and out during the day and thousands and thousands of dollars will be lost to the fishermen. Also, I might add, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of fishermen whose wives work at the fish plant there in Bay de Verde, who also signed this petition because they were concerned over the same situation.

So,Sir, I would ask the minister if he would make a special effort to get the appropriate officials of his department to work so that this small but very important project is completed immediately, because the fishing season is in the process of starting, as the minister well knows. So, Sir, I ask that this petition be placed on the Table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates.

April 25, 1978, Tape 1372, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the petition from the hon. member but I should point out to him that - of course, I think he has already stated that in the case of this particular slipway, it is a provincial responsibility.

Certainly, I will have my people take a look at it and what can be done will be done. _ But I should like to inform the han. member and the House that while the Province obviously is responsible for that particular slipway, the matter of providing and maintaining slipways in the Province is the responsibility of the federal government. I think a few years ago there were a small number of slipways built by the Province with about, I would estimate, 98 per cent o£ the slipways in the Province remaining the responsibility of Ottawa.

Now, I am not using that as an excuse for the condition of the slipway in Red Head Cove because, obviously, that is our responsibility. MR. F.B.ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. F.B.ROWE: I do not like to get in an argument over a petition, but I would like to - it might be more information than a point of order, but I did write both the federal and the provincial authorities on this and both provincial and federal authorities are in agreement that the responsibility for this particular slipway comes under the jurisdiction of the provincial government. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. W. CARTER: There is no point of order. I have admitted, I am taking the han. member's word for it, that it is our responsibility. But I am pointing out that in 98 per cent of the cases around the Province where there are

April 25, 1978, Tape 1372, Page 3 -- apb MR. W. CARTER: slipways, it is a federal responsibility. But in the case of the Red Head Cove one, of course we will take a look at it and what can be done will be done. But I should like to point out that in so doing, and by the Province assuming responsibility for the provision of a few slipways a few years back, we were, in fact, I suppose, doing something that the federal government should have been doing. In fact, our policy in the future will be that any new slipways will have to be built by the federal government because it is their responsibility.

But in the case of this one we will take a look at it and correct it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words in support of the petition from the fishermen from Red Head Cove and say I recall that at the time the facility was built there it was built by the man who is presently my executive assistant, Mr. Brendan Howard. At the time I recall the frustrations he had in attempting to get some funds from Ottawa allocated for the purpose of building that facility that was much needed by the fishermen of the area, in Red Head Cove.

As a result of his pressures on his then colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, funds were allocated for that purpose. But as my colleague pointed out, it is the responsibility,primarily, of the Federal Department of the Environment,or the Fisheries Marine Services Division,

April 25, 1978 Tape 1373 EC - 1 HR. MORGAN: or the Small Craft Harbours Division and not the provincial government. However, I am hopeful that my colleague will arrange to have engineers sent to the area and the facilities repaired so the fishermen can carry out the fishery this year in a suc.:e~sful way. AN RON. HE~!BER: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN HR. SPEAKER: HR. H. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question number 23 in the name of the hen. · the member for LaPoile dated M~rch 30, 1978. It is to ask the minister to provide information (

a) How many doctors were recruited outside the Province in 1974, 1975, 1976 and 19777 and (

b) In what provinces or countries were these doctors recruited? The total number of doctors recruited were twenty-six; in 1974 there were nine, in 1975 there were nine, in 1976, six and in 1977, two for a total of twenty-six. Those doctors came from England, eleven; Ireland, four; Ontario, four; Alberta, two; Austr·alia, one; New Zealand, one; Nova Scotia, one; Quebec, one; and Jamaica, one for a tntal of twenty-six. ORAL QUESTIONS :lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: I see the Premier has made good his escape again, ar. Speaker, so I cannot ask him anything.

So I will have to size up the array over there and I will ask a question of today. see who :m. NEARY: MR. NOLAN: ~!R. H. ~;. ~OWE: Cannot stand the heat! Could we have a list each n~v? He has been in here for a couple

April 25, 1978 Tape 1373 EC - 2 1-!R. H. N. ROlvE : of days, now he is gone again on another little frolic of his own. I think I will ask a question of the I!inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir. ~hen can members of the House expect to have circulated a copy of the revised Bill No. 101 dealing with regional government? :!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. DIITN: Mr. Speaker, there is a proposed draft; we are still changing it; we are going to continue to change it until we get it 100 per cent correct.

When it is changed, when it is ready, when it is perfect, we will bring it into the House and all hon. members will have a look at it. !IR. NEARY: We will all be in the Hayles Home by then. HR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary on that, Sir. !!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . ~!R. W. N. ROWE: Sir, I would like the minister to explain this strange new procedure that he is now involved in.He drafts draft number one, presumably at draft number eighteen or twenty the members of this House will be done the courtesy of seeing what the bill is all about and what it says.

The position we are in now is everybody else in St. John's MR. NEARY: It is a best sell~r, is it? HR. H . N. ROl-lE : -seems to have access to what is going on in regional government, all except members of this House on both sides, !lr. Speaker - I am not only speaking for us -on both sides of the House outside of the Cabinet, itself. .. ~ I I i ' • . I I I ·I I ~-

April 25, 1978 Tape 1373 EC - 3 MR. H. N. ROWE: Does this minister, do other ministers presume to circulate draft legislation far and wide throughout the countryside before bringing it to this House? Are they going to perpetrate contempt on this House, Mr. Speaker, by not permitting us to see the draft legislationfirst before other people see it? is the situation on it? li'hat }1R. SPEAKER: Affairs and Housing. MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: The hon. the Minister of Municipal He will make a fool of himself. Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wishes to make recommendations on the Henley report on regional government, if he would like to come down to my office at any time, discuss regional government, Bill No. 101, the proposed draft or any other thing, he is quite welcome to do so. I open my office, my doors,to any hon. member; but it is not a piece of legislation, it is not ready for the House of Assembly, and when it is ready it will be brought in and not before that. MR. ~. N. ROHE: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. HR. l•J. N. ROHE: to accomplish?

What is the minister trying Is he admittin~ that the government is so lacking in intestinal fortitude that they cannot bring in a piece of legislation and put it before the House and debate it and hear submissions from members? And .having alreadn presumably,heard advice from other people, public servants, councillors and so on,elsewhere, is the minister admitting that? Is this what he is trying to do, Mr. Speaker? He is trying to circulate these pieces of legislation around~not ;.:

April 25, 1978 Tape 1373 EC - 4 HR. 1\1. ;; • ROWE : calling them legislation, just calLing them draft legislation - not even draft legislation, proposed draft legislation, Sir - circulated around

April 25, 1978 Tape 1374 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: hoping to curry the political favour of concillors in St. John's;and in getting their favour,of course,then bringing it into the House and having a brilliant political coup on his hands is that what he .is trying to do, Sir. If he is, Sir, then I suggest he is going about it the wrong way. He has managed to antagonize,as I under- stand it and alienate .anyone who has looked at the piece of draft legislation.

But I would like to know from him does this now mean that this government will no longer bring in something which it has drafted itself which it proposes to stand on, and fall or rise on as the case be,and from now on we will have pieces of legislation submitted to all political interest groups in the vai~hope that this government can be shored up by outside forces? Is this what he is trying to do? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, this government intends to consult rather than to dictate. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear_, hear ! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Are both gentlemen up on supplementaries? The han. gentleman for Conception Bay South then the han. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary on the same point, Mr. Speaker. Is the hen. minister telling us here in the House that he had taken I . I the draft legislation,or whatever it is,and found within his wisdom and jurisdiction as Minister of Municipal Affairs that it is okay to circulate it to members of the Council of the City of St. John's and not members of this House of Assembly?

I mean, where do we rank right now in the minister's opinion, the members of this House? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the han. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) has just been informed by a previous answer that it is not draft legislation. SOME RON. MEMBERS: What is it.?

April 25, 1978 Tape 1374 PK - 2 MR. DINN: It is a document that proposes what government AN HON. MEMBER: When will we have a look at it? MR. DINN: Any time the hon. member would like to come down to my office SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A supplementary by the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.NEhRY: My understanding of the matter, Sir, is that it was sent to the St. John's City Council in a form of a draft bill, so therefore, Sir, it is wrong to say it is not draft legislation. MR. W. ROWE: Misleading the House. MR.

NEARY: That is misleading the House, whether deliberately or not, I could not say. But, Sir, what I want to ask the minister is this; the Mayor of St. John's, Mayor Wyatt,has invited the MHAs representing St. John's districts to come and discuss, I think it is this evening at 6:00 o'clock,to discuss that draft legislation. MR. W. ROWE: Now postponed until Thursday . MR. NEARY: Now postponed because there are too many ministers at large, on the loose, and they cannot get them all together. Now that meeting will take place.

What I want to know from the minister is,obviously, the Mayor will make this draft legislation known to the St. John's members. Do the St. John's members already have copies of that draft legislation? And if the members do not have it, of course, they will see it when they go down to this meeting with Mayor Wyatt. Now it raises the question again, When will the Opposition get to see this draft legislation so _ that we can have some input into it? aoart from the members who represent St. John's district. Have they seen it? Do they have copies of it?

Will they have to wait until they go to City Hall to see this draft legislation? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: House last year. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, Bill 101 was put on the table of the We have been discussing that. My colleagues from St. John•s and the St. John's region have been making recommendations, I . i

April 25, 1978 Tape 1374 PK - 3 Mr. Dinn: have yet to receive one recommendation from any member opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: If they would like to make some recommendations they are quite capable of doing it, I am sure,~ev have Bill 101, as every hon. member has a copy of it, T.~ey can look at that bill and if there is something in it they do not like they can make recommendations, and that is basically what we are doing; we are taking the old Bill 101 and we are making changes, and we will continue to make changes until, as I have said before, it is perfect to our satisfaction. MR.

SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for LaPoile, a final supplementary; then the han. member for Windsor-Buchans, and then Port au Port. MR. NEARY: We have already made recommendations to the han. gentleman, Sir, that_ the hon. gentleman follow the Toronto Metro system, We have already made this suggestion insid~ and outside of the House. Now we have not seen the draft legislation, Sir. We would like to make some recommendations. Now the St. John's members - AN HON. MEMBER: Our Bill 10 1. MR NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Like Ouebec"s. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, Quebec has their Bill 101, and now Newfoundland is having the equivalent of the Quebec Bill 101. And we would like to have a look at it, so we can have some input into it. We want to make some recommendat~ons that may save the minister a lot of trouble in the future of setting up another level of bureaucracy. So we have already made suggestions. But can we have the bill, will the minister give us the bill so that we can make some recommendations to the hon. gentleman? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure Bill 101 can be provided to any hon. member opposite. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. .I I < i

April 25, 1978 Tape 1374 PK - 4 ~IR . FLIGIIT: Hr . Speaker, my question is co the !inister of Education, and it is with regard to the application by the Town of Badger last year through a petition that was supported by ·85 per cent of the town, 90 per cent of all of the students, and unanimously supported in this House that the minister or the government would discontinue the busing of children from Badger to Grand Falls and provide public scnools in the Tovn of Badger. Would the minister indicate to the Bouse .I

April 25, 1978 Tape Clo. 1375 lfR. FLIGHT: .wh4t is the status now of that particular request from the Tovm of Badger? ~-!R. SPEP.J<ER: ~1R.. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Education. Xr. Speaker, I recall the petition, and of course I mentioned at the time of the petition that t~is House - or tllis government )las no responsfbility for providing public schools.

It \vas sent and talked to to the denominational col!ll:litttes and \Ve said at that time that there are a number of precedents for the various denominations, denominational school comittees, to get together and one of them agree to build a school H~ich the other people could go to, but we could not direct that from the department. It is not permitted in our legislation or in the Terms of Union that governs the denominational rights of schools.

So that is ''here it lies. 'r.le only thing \•IE do do in that respect is to encourage joint services,which I underst&~d has been done in a number of places in the Province. But that initiative must be taken be taken from the denominational committees and not government. \.fR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEA:<E:?-.: ~. FLIGHT: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, >muld the minister tell the House that i~ vie1>' of the gross injustice and frustration that t:le people of Badger and the students of Bad~er have been subjected to, has he t~~en the liberty to suggest to the DEC's that some of the money t~at is turned over to the DEC's for capital works in this Province vmuld be di;terted to Badger, that he \>'auld reco=end that the DEC's look at building those schools in Badger? Has he taken that stand and directed a~ i 3uggested to the DEC's that that is a reasonable request and that it should ':Je done 7 :"? .. SPEAKER: The han. ~linister of Education.

April :?.5, 1973 Tape ~lo. 1375 ~!R. HOUSE: !.fr. Speaker, I have not made that recorenendation. I have suggested that joint.services, we support it. I aave not said that tve can divert II\Oney because it is not in our mandate to divert monies for schools in any particular community. And the DEC's, if they get together and, as I mentioned just now, and they decide to build a joint school, we would be delighted to see that ~~d of thing happen.

But under the present arrangement t~e just cannot do it. lve have no tlandate to direct the Denominational Education Committes where they build schools and t1hen they build them. i'!R. FLIGHT: ~.ffi.. SPEAKER: gentlemen for Part au Port. } ~. FLIGFiT: One more supplementary. A final supplementarJ, then the han.

Is the minister telling the Rouse t!"lat considering the fact that he controls almost one third of the b udget of this Province, that he does not 1 as a minister of this Cra"m who turns over that kind of money to DEC's to be spent, that he does not feel that he has the·liberty to suggest to them that the totm of Badger is being done an injustice, that a school should be built there and he ~~ould suggest that they look very seriously at it, that he does not feel, as a minister of the Crown, that he has the liberty to even make that suggestion? Hot·r povrerful are the DEC's getting, "!r.

Speaker, tvith determining where and hotv our money will be spent? 'ffi. SPEAXE?.: Ti'le hon. ~~inister of Education. HR. HOUSE: :~r. Speaker, not only do I feel I do not have the liberty, I knot-r I do not have the liberty to oo it. I'R. FLIGHT: > ~r. Spe2.ker, I tvould just like to serve notice tC!at I am not C!appy •,Tith the r.rlnister's 2.nsFer and I would res pectfully request the ri ght to debate this issue on the Late ShO tiT this comin g Thursday. I had indicated I tvculd recongize the hon. member for Port au Port (!-lr. Hodder) next and following :'lim the hon. member for Terra :!ova (:;r. Lush) . •.

April 25, 197e Tape ~!o . 1375 :::! - 3 ::P.. HODDER: !i.r. Speaker, a ques~ion for c!le ~linis ter of Fisheries . o~ FTiday t~e ~inister assured ne that he woulc be takins so:::;.e leaGers!lip i:\ t:1e p ro ole~. :rith t."'le prices of lobster ac ross the Province, We now have a sit~ation where ~ one su:a.ll area of the ?rovio.ce ',/e are finding th.at one buyer is paying $1.50, another one $1.80; t!1at is just in cy own <!:!stric t, the area of Port au Por: .

I askad that question of the minis ter on F::iday mornin.; , r wonder nO"w if the minister could let n'te :~ow just what is bappe:1bg~ I am quite a-;~at:e that t he Fisnermen 1 s \:nion had nego~:iacec w-ith this particular compa."ly, but n0\1 1:he expecta t ions of t he fishe~n are ~~ . They erpect Sl . SO a pound and sone of the~ a t:e not getting it. Some of ~~em are not sell~g thee , What is the ~seer coing to str~ghten out this mess? 'tR . SPEAKE?,: The hoo.. ~·~n!.ster of Fis:teries. '~ .

Speaker, I have had ci3cussions ·-;it!\ ~'1e :'is::e= 1 s l:tllou and it is :~'l v1cusly a catter that is,! s~'l()Ose , ;,ec~;e~ the union and the fishermen, and c:1e ::ova Scotian lobster buyer, I think Earbour Fish eries it is called. And the s tot:y is t:tat :!le Fisher:nen 1 s Unio n , in behalf of t~eir membership, d.:.d 1n fact

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1376 AH-1 MR. W. CARTER: negotiate a price of $1.80 per pound with the Nova Scotian company headed by a chap,l'rr. Dennis Snow, I think his name is. I know that in certain parts of the Province it is working very well, the price ~s being paid, lobsters are being collected and shipped to the Hainland. I had a discussion with the Fishermen's Union Vice President early this morning at which time he informed me that the operator, the buyer,was having problems with reppect to working capital and there will probably be some proposals made.

In fact,I am sure there has been a proposal made to the federal government for financial assistance and I have a feeling that maybe they will be making similar representation to the Province. I am told that the other buyers are offering as high as $1.50 per pound_ and probably in some cases as low as $1.25 per pou::td, But certainly it is a matter, Mr. Speaker, that,while we are all concerned, it is something that will have,I suppose,to follow the course of the collective bargaining process that occurs between Fishermen's Union on behalf of the fishermen and the fish buyers.

I do not know what else I can add to it except to say that some of the fishermen appear to be pretty happy with the $1.80 per pound and in certain parts of the Province it seems to be WDrking0 Ln certain'other parts of the Province it is not working for the reason that I have stated. I1R. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. l'lR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~JR. HODDER: Is the minister saying that this company does not have enough working capital? Is this a sound company? Has the minister done an investigation of this company just to see what sort of a company they Are and whether they are sound cr not?

Because they sure have caused a mess here with the lobster fishermen. HR.W.CARTER: We have undertaken an investigation~!£ you want to call it that,into the company, taken a look at its finan~ial position an~ we are not overly impressed with the financial state of that company, But surely when the union,which is the legal representative,! 3~ppose,of I ·I I

April 23,1978 Tape No. 1376 AH-2 MR.W. CARTER: pretty well all of the fishermen,especially lobster fishermen, when they negotiate a price with a company, a price that is negotiated in good faith,certainly,as far as the union is concerned, well then; do not think it is government's place to go out and to discredit that company.

We have a lot of faith in the Fishermen's Union and if they say that that company is willing to pay $1.80 per pound 7and if they assure that the_ company is acting in good faith and able to meet its commitments,well,to be perfectly honest I would be pretty reluctant and hesitant to do or say anything that would have the effect of casting doubt on the company.

In fact,we have no reason until now to question the integrity of that company or its credihility and it is only in the past few days that matters have come to my attention that would in fact certainly raise s'ome doubts in my mind as to the credibility of the company or its financial ability to undertake the commi~ment made to the Fishermen's Union, And-like I said,in certain parts of the Province, in the Port aux Basques area,there has ~een a lot of lobster shipped out by this company and the $l.SO per pound price has been paid. MR.

SPEAKER: As I indicat~d,I will recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova next and after that LaPoile, St. John's East and Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. LUSH: l1r. Speaker, a question to the :1inister of Tourism. With reference to the $13.2 million that the minister recently received from Ottawa,I wonder whether the minister can inform the House as to what flexibility the government have in spending this money , whether the federal government determines what areas will be sponsored or whether it is purely the decision of the minister and the government? l1R. SPEAKER: The bon. minister, }!R. HORGAN: Hr.

Speaker, the funds to be spent,of courseq emphasize twr areas of the Province with ~pecial emphasi~,one being tile Bonavista lleninsula, Clarenville,Eas::port Peninsula area including also the Burin Peninsula as one area,and the second area is the Great ~ I . ! • I ' I

April 23,1978 Tape No. 1376 AH-3 HR. ;;-IQRGAN: Northern Peninsula. All the projLcts that will be approved for these areas with regards to development of attractions, historic sites, etc, have to be approved by the Joi~ }~nagement Committee ,the federal-provincial representation on that committee. We have not got the I I . i

April 25, 1978 Tape No. 1377 ~~~ - 1 HR. ~!ORGA~: sole authority to make decisions, for example,on locations to be developed, or sites to be developed. He do not even have the a.uthority to mal~e decisions, for example,on the locations for tourist chalets. That also has to be co-ordinated between us and the federal goverment. So all decisions in connection with the spending of tl1e money, except for the overall general promotion of tourism outside the Province, are made in a joint way beb:veen the b:vo levels of government. :-ffi.. LUSH: "!R. SPEA..XER: '1R. LUSil: A supplementary. A supplementary.

Can the minister indicate <.rhether the · Terra ~leva district itself will be included in the expenditures of these funds 2nd,if so,what areas? :-!P .• SPE.\KER: ~. "~ORGMl: T~e han. ~inister of Tourism. Well,as mentioned, ~r. Speaker, part of the Terra Nova district will be included and that

part is the Eastport Peninsula. That .takes in the National Park area, not the the Goose Bay area, the ~'usgravetmm area, but the Eastport Peninsula and the Terra nova National Park and of course it takes in the Bon:2vi:>ta Pensinsula - Clarenville area as rvell. MR. LUSH: ~·!R. SPEAKER: ~!R. LUSH: A supplementary. The final supplementary. Raving ::o do <.rit!-1 the tourist develop!:lent of the area, it is my understanding, ~r. Speaker, that a decision has been reached <vith respect to the location of the proposed golf course for the Terra Nova Naticnal Park.

I 1-ronder if the minister can indicate to the House tthy the decision is not me.de public yet? -I am sure tha1: tbe ~~. "!i~-l••t<>r is not r-miting for me to ma'-'.e that announcement. HR. SPEAKER: The han. ~finister of Tourism.

April 25, 1978 Tape l'lo. 1377 NH - 2 MR. }"ORGAN: \iT ell, "Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hen. gentleman would love to mak e the announcement, but as the hen. gentleman is al·Tare of, the location that was initially chosen, the Sandrin gham area, there •re-re some problems there in connection with - the residents were not satisfied with the land acquisition question. !hen there were ~vo sites bein g loo ked at by both levels of government wh ereb y a consult i n g firm was ap~ointed to anal y ze both sites , on e bein g in the community of Terra Nova, the other at the Northwest River area and Port Blandford.

As a r esult of the dis cussions between the two levels of g overnm~~t, the f e deral and pro vincial, with the p e o~le in resp e ctive area s , and as a result of a report now mace an d filed by the consultinf firm which did the report and the analvsis . nf th~ t--Tn s i t es , (Inaud i ble) . ~ ~r. S pe~::er : if t he. ~!on. O~ p o ;i tioc LcaCz r, Hho act s in so1.1e co.s es for :1i s coll e ague, .I ':·;i ll not a."1s .. .-7er t h e q ~e stion , if h e doe s not ;.;-;;1·1t the ques tion an su erec . '~ .• SPEAI-~_: The hon. rnenber for LaPoile . ~·!!t. :~EA P .. Y : ~1r.

Spe.a~c:::, f"}.,. question is for t:1e ~~inister of Justice, t!1e !1inist~r of FinaL!ce, t:u:: Acting Preu.ier, I presw~e ~ he Deputy - I am not sure if the ~inister of Industrial Development or the :::in is ter of fin=ce is t~1e De;mty Pre::-ier.

Tl1e ''inister of Industrial :Jevelopr:tent is not the Deputy Preruier. ';';10 is t'H~ Der.uty Premier? nuddy over t' tere,loo ,~. '•iell 1-1hocver it is, Si.r, r·::1et:1er it be tile Hinister of Indus trial Devclopnent or the ~li::is ter of Justice, -::-roulC: t~e minis te.r i:1ilicate, now that tl1e ruember for Granu Falls, the farner ~. :inis ter of P.ur:al Develo;nnent is no longer c. minister, cmuld the c:i.D.j.ster of Justice tells us uhat has napper..eG. to the minister's eY-ecutive assistant? He does not ~:n01:·7.

April 25, l'J7S Tape Clo. 1377 :n-r - 3 ~~- :1.JRG~ll: l~r. Speaker, a poir.t of order. ~m.. ~lEARY: A supplereentary question, Sir. MR. SP~\..'CEP.: A point of order has come up. MR. r'ORGA1l: A point of order, ~fr. Speaker. For clarification of the ctouse of Assembly and for nyself, w:1en questions arc asl~ed by l10n. members in the Opposition, respecting their 01-m districts in !!!any cases, if ministers. are atteiJ.pting to give information ~o the Lon. gentlemen, is it pro~er for some other collea3ue of his to be de~anding the hen. minister to sit dm-m anc not be ans1~ering the question'? ~!R. H.

ROta.TE: Ol·m colleague. l'R. :TEARY: of yourself. !'R. SPEAKE It: !·!R. NEARY: !{R. SPEAKER: YR. NEARY: Oh, sit down! Clo,it is not. You embarrassed your Sit dor.m,boy. Do not be l'!a!dng a fool I thin!< I vrill reserve ruling on that. A supplementary question, ~!r. Speaker. A supple~£ntary. Mr. Speaker, ~<auld the Acting Pren:ier indicate to the House, Sir, if the ::~etr.ber for Grand Falls is still entitled to an executive assistant now that he is not a minister? And if so,•.•ould the minister indicate \·T;1at has been done about this executive assistant?

Because I understand t:lE,y are political appoint!!'.ents made by the ciuister. The mnister picl:s c1is m-m executive assista:tt. :low that the gentleman is no longer a cinister,is he entitled to = executive .?.ssistant or 1vhat is the future status of that particuJ ar gentle::~an or position? 'lR. SPE.'\KER: "R. HIC'f-2~Jil·1: gentleman is. The han. ~Jr.ister of Jusfice . '~r.

Speaker, I do not kno'v ~-:~:c t~1e particular The ;>Osition >lith respect to executive assistants is very simple, that an executive assistant obviously is chosen by the 8inister, reco~ended to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for appointment, CT.d he is sc appointed. T~e hon. 6entleman frohl Grand Fells, ~o long~r bein~ a member of government, as I understand it no longer has an executive

l ~ . RIC1C'PJ•I: is rig~t now I do not knol-l . :~ . NE,.RY : HR. SPEAKER: 'lR . ~A Y: Tape ~o . 13 77 .rH - 1; assistant . rfuere t~at exe cutive assistant A supplementary question t~en . A supple~ntary . Does th e hon . gentl eman care e~ough to find out fe r t~e i:!ouse i f there is still an executive as.sis tant, a redmtdant execu t ive assistant floating around or has he been pl aced. in some ct~er position? ~!ould the hen . ge.::1tlet:~an ·~

April 25, 1978 ':::ape 1378 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: undertake to get that information or is he - what has happened? HR. HICKHAN: I will take it as notice. HR. NEARY: NR. LUNDRIGA!T: question. HR. SPEAKE?..: !·!R. LUNDRIGAN: generosity, Sir. Okay, Sir. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary I will hear one supplementary.

Thank you, Your Honour, for your I would like to ask the hon. the House Leader, I wonder can he confirm whether the Opposition has ten secretaries compared with something like three by the backbenchers in the government; whether the executive assistant by the former leader is still retained.on staff; and whether he can have a look into the fact that the Opposition 1 as I understand it,are spending perhaps upwards of $300,000 on the total ·benefits and total services that they have~and the official government~pposition- or government support group or your backbenchers here have a pittance of something like three secretaries and practically no fund awarded ?

Then, in view of the fact t~at that exceeds what I understand Joe Clark gets in the House of Commons, can he have a look into it, Sir? l!R. SPEAKER: 1·!R. HICK~AN: The bon. the Minister of Justice. That question is noticed because obviously I cannot answer it in detail. I do know that when the Moores administration came into office ·there was a major change in policy with respect to Opposition. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. l1R. HICK!1AN: And in fact, I heard the former Leader of the Opposition and,indeed, the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) commend the Moores administration for

April 25, 1978 Tape 137 8 EC - 2 !1R. HICK}!AN: their change in policy and turn· the other cheek, and provide adequate staff to the Opposition which was not practiced in the past, But how many are over there I do not know, but I certainly would take it as notice and I think that we probably could find ·out,if it is not already in the estimates,the exact number of employees that are over there, and also whether or not there is an executive assistant and - SOXE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. HICKHAN: I am having tremendous difficulty answering that question, Mr. Speaker. I will take it as notice. But in any event, ~!R.

SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East. ~!R. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the han. the Minister of Finance, one that he will want to take notice of, I bel{eve, and probably table the answer, but one which I think requires early attention. I "onder could he inform the House the total borrowings payable in United States currency and European funds of the Province, and the increase in cost to the government of these borrowings as a result of the devaluation of the Canadian dollar or the costsapplicable at the time of such borrowings?

And at the same time he might inform what, if any - if there are increased costs - vhat effect these will have upon the budgetary projections for the coming year. HR. HICKHAN: Hr. Speaker, I will have to <-lait until Hansard comes out so I can read very carefully the question that is so abl y put by the bon. the member for St. John's East. ~1R. SPEAKE~ : The hon. the member for Burgeo - Ba y d'Espoir I have indicated I would reco gni=e next.

April 25, 1978 Tape 1378 EC - 3 ~IR. S U!~IONS : Yes, he read it just like he wrote it, 'Alec', boy. :Ir. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. This relates to an item we were asking about a couple of weeks ago, namely, the report of the police investigation into certain goings on in the Department of Public Works a couple of years ago. The minister indicated last week to the House in response to questions from this side that, I gather the public prosecutor and/or the minister had requested some additional information.

Would the minister indicate whether that information has been forthcoming at this moment in tiDe? ~lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. :IR. i!ICIGlAN: Mr. Speaker, firstly, may I repeat there is no police investigation going on into the -practices in tileo Department of Public Works or aspects of the Department o f Public Works and Services. There is an investigation going on, which became public knowledge as a result of a request from the Auditor-General,and it came on the floor of this House.

And I can only repeat what I said before; the results of that investigation I am not aware of, nor do I propose becoming aware of it. It would be highly im~roper for me to become aware of it. What I did do, as any responsible Attorney General should, after the question was asked in the House last week as to the status of this investigation, I checked with the Director of Public Prosecutions ~-

April 25, 1978 Tape 1379 PK - 1 Mr. Hiclanan: who informed me that he had received a report from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,who were conducting the investigation- and the other police force there is also involved- that having perusea lt, whoever the Crown Prosecutor is who will be dealing with it, he has asked for some additional information. And unless and until he receives that information he will not be irt a position to reach a firm conclusion as to what further action, if any,should be taken. Whether the Director of Public Prosecutions has received that additional evidence I do not know.

He is under no obligation to tell me. I would be surprised if he did. And he,in the discharge of his responsibility as Director of Public Prosecutions~will take whatever action is deemed appropriate based solely on the evidence which is available to him. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister, you ~ow, makes a fine speech, but I think he misses the essential point. Now our information over here is that the original report on this investigation has been sitting on a desk in his department for two to three months. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR.

SIMMONS: Now we understand the need for additional information,but will the minister tell us if he has given any instruction- I am not asking whether he has seen the report- but I am asking if he has given any instruction that no action be taken on that report, or that action be delayed? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I find that staterrent offensive - MR. SIMMONS: It should be. SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: The minister has not seen the report. The minister does not see the report.

This minister has never since he was sworn in as Attorney-General in 1966 issued instructions to anyone on his staff to withhold,to accelerate or to delay a charge, and I do not I - I ~ I • I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1379 PK - 2 Mr. Hickman: inte~c doing it now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: And you would have to have a mind the size of a pea to think like that. HR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. SIMMONS : MR. W. ROWE: O.<DERS OF TI:.E DAY: A supplementary? Supply. )r you would have to know the minister well.

On Order of the Day, Sir, 'if I may have the leave of the House, I thought tile House shoula recognize, Sir, that this Volunteer \·ieek, and that the House should go on record as paying tribute to all those people in society who do give up their_ time voluntarily, and we should recognize that this week is in fact Volunteer Week. Somebody, Sir, one time computed the addition to the Gross National Product of people who give free time' if it was computed in terms of,say, minimum wage, and it came out to be many hundreds of millions of dollars across Canada, Sir.

And I would like to go on record,and I am sure other members of the House would like to go on record of paying a tribute to those people who are involved in volunteer work and recognizing officially that this is in fact Volunteer Week. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to dra~ the - The hon.member for LaPoile. - attention to the hon. members of the House that this is also National Secretaries Week, and I hope that hon. gentlemen especially will be very kind to their secretaries during the week.

And I want to pay tribute to all the secretaries, Sir, especially the ones who wor k here in Confederation Building and throughout the Province in various offices and in various capacities. I would like to pay a tribute to them on this being National Secretaries Week. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . HIC!QI.A.'I>I: Committee of Sunnlv . ..

April 25, 1978 Tape 1379 PK - 3 . HR. SPlAKE.~ : The motion is that I leave the Chair • SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps before doing t hat , when statements are made like the former ones , the hon . member usually starts off and assumes the leave of the Bouse, and the Chair does not intervene unless the Chair is informed an hon . member does not have leave . MR. W. ROWE: That is right, Sir . MR. SPEAKER: At least that appears to me to be the '"'ay to operate it . MR. W. RO'..lE: That is r ight, Sir. MR. NEARY: ! t is very much appreciated . On moti on that the Bouse resolve itself int o a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair . .... ... . I l I I . .

April 25, 1978 Tape 1380 DW - 1 COMHITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ 601 - 01. The hon. Minister of Education. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I want to respond to some of the remarks in the past sitting. I want bo first of all talk about the government effort in education. First of all,and I think we can document it,that this government has made a tremendous in education in the last six or seven years.The amount of money-and I want to highlight that we are the Province in Canada that is spending the largest proportion of our income on education.

It happens to amount to 14 per cent of the gross income of the people of our Province being used in education and,of course, that is about 5 percentage points above the Canadian average. I want to also point out the tremendous effort in this number of years in providing what we think is one of the best aspects of quality in education,which is of course qualified teachers. Hon. members will recall there has been about 1,500"teachers added since this government came to power,and the amount for teach~rs sa1~rv h~~ ~"~ from $44 million to $150 million . in that span of time.

Now the reason I am saying that is the fact that I think the effort has been good,and I realize that there are across the House five previous Cabinet ministers in the previous government,and I am sure when they were there they thought their effort was good and they would have done more if they could. And I think that is the way we feel about it now,that tne increase of 1,500 teachers with less pupils has been one ofthe factors that certainly should bring about some quality of education. I believe it has brought it about and I think we can document that.

Now in responding to some of the remarks from the Opposition spokesman the other day and the member for St. John's North(Mr. Carter),! just want to make just a quick reference to the Tg~~ Force I did mention it when I was speaking the reason why it was set up in the way it was was the fact that we want to do a job as quicky as we can to give us direction toe see where w~ are going with the problem nf the declining enrollments. And the whole thing is if you embodied or involved all the interest g~oups on a Task Force 1all the interest groups in education, I thihk it would be unwieldly.

So ~hat we have done there ,_ •.-

April 25, 1978 Tape 1380 DW - 2 MR. W. HOUSE: is to try and Ret a report for the Pnd of June and another report, the f:J.nal report~ by the end of the calendar vear.And in the meantime the two people on the Task Force 1rlll be . contacting all the interest groups snd getting input from them.And we think Lhat is more efficient and will reach a larger segment of the population than if we just add a representative from each of the groups.

Some of the other critcisms, of course,the other day was the one about the Newfoundland curriculum and the charge that our curriculum in our schools is archaic,and I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that that is a valid argument. Firs.t of all 9 we are encouraging the utilization of as much Nelifoundland materials in the curriculum as we have~ and we have now at least twenty or thirty packages,various Newfound- landia areas,and some of that is ranging from grade five ri~ht. through to grade ten.

And if you would look at the reading lists that we have on our school we try to bring in as much reading material from Newfoundland authors as we can. We would like probably to do more. and we will be doing more as the materials become available. However, when we ttalk about curriculum in total,it is not so easy to say let us go and pick up the Newfoundland material and teach it in our schools,because the total curriculum,basically the skills that we teach in our Newfoundland schools as well we teach in schools all across Canada and North America,are usually universal skills.

There are very few companies in the world that have an expertise in developing materials;that is,they have to conform to learning theories, they have to have the materials level for the various levels of abilities~ and of course they have to produce 1t in sufficient quanitites.So we do not have that expertise,neither do any of the other indiviciual provinces~ but we are using as much material as is available, I must say that except for some of the things in language arts,the literature and some of the social studies, Mr. Chairman, everything else is universal, There is no _ ,

April 25, 1978 rape 1380 DW - 3 MR. HOUSE: such thing,for instance,as Newfoundland mathematics,there is no such thing as Newfoundland science,and there is no such thing as Newfoundland

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1381 AH-1 MR. HOUSE: and there is no such thing as Newfoundland reading skills, Skills are universal and of course that is what make up basically the curriculum in the elementary level.

We are working,for instance,with social studies programmes and we are involving the teachers of the Province, One other thing that I want to point out and I want to emphasize is the fact that in the development of curriculum, whether it is archaic or not-and I happen to believe that it is not·- we are involving the teachers of the Province,and every subject area that is being talked about and being promoted is being done in connection and in conjunction with the teachers of the Province. I think they are doing a good job and we have a continuous development in curriculum.

I just want to make reference to the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) when he talked about the teacher layoffs. I believe he was referring at that time to a specific board,and of course a lot of the boards in the Province are sendi~g in as a reaction to what has happend, but this particular board,I wa~t LO point out to the House and to the committee, the pupils have gone from 9000 down to 7000. And one of the things you want to bear in mind is that they may have been able to have had programmes last year that they cannot have this year.

You can take as an ex=ple, Mr Chairman, that in an given area where an industry happens to be closed out,half your school population could go but you could still retain your number of teachers for a year. And obviously in that particular one year,with perhaps seven or eight surplus teachers, a board is bound to put on new programmes, and consequently this is what may have happened in some of these cases, but you could not expect us to perpetuate that because we would have had,of course,an iniquitous distribution of teachers.

I want to reiterate also that in'the teacher layoff that we have not, and I want to emphasize that,we have not lessened the number of specialist teachers, we have not lessened the number of special education teachers.So to say that those people who are handicapped

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1381 AH-2 MR. H0USE: are being discr~inated against I do not think that is the case because we have not layed off any of these teachers. Now there was some reference made there also .to the students at the university, the increasing of the level of funds that the students would have to borrow. Mr. Chairman, there is nobody on this side of the House-or any side of the House,! would ~gine-who want to invoke that kind of measure.

We cannot afford in this Province where we are spending a sizeable portion of our total budget on education and where we are spending much more as a percentage of our per capita income on education, we cannot afford more luxury or more effort in programmes than the more wealthier provinces. Right now we still,at this point in t~e and next Fall,have one of the best programmes to aid students in Canada.

It is also untrue to say that the university is becoming an elitist institution,because the design of the Student Aid programme of course insures that students who really want an education may get the assistance when they enter. The fact that some may not attend- and I think it was referred to the other day that some people are not attending university now because of student aid costs-! do not think that i~ the basic reason why students are not attending university, I think it is because of job opportunities.

And one of the faculties that did swell the university enrolment in the years gone by was the teacher education.And young people know now that the opportunity for getting employment as a teacher is not like it was a few years ago,so we do not get as many people entering that faculty. But I think if you went and checked the university you would find there are still just as many or more in the other faculties as there were there before. So I do not think that students are not going to university because of the costs,! think it is more because there are not so many job opportunities in education. Now, 11r.

Chairman, the cost to government to run the university is in excess of $5,000 per year per student and,secondly, student aid is in conjunction to that. The federal government gives the loan and the Province gives the grant to the student, We assume,just like the rest of Canada~that the responsibility .I

April 25, 1978, Tape l382, Page 1 -- apb MR. HOUSE: for student aid rests with the student and the parent. We will give help when the student has problems of not having enough wherewithal. This is an example of the government's input into it: Let us say a student comes into the university and has no wherewithal, no money from his own resources, he is totally a dependent student; he borrows $700 per semester to pay back with interest beginning after he has found employment,_ six months after he has found employment - and this could be five years later, of course - that is the federal input.

Then, if he qualifies, and he qualifies for a $1000 grant from the our department, that is $1000 per semester and there is no payback, there is no payback. And if this person - that is if he is single he gets $1000; if he is married and is totally dependent he get $l250 - so at the end of ten semesters he winds up with a federal loan of $7000 and a free, no-strings-attached grant of $10,000 over that period of time, if he is totally dependent. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we think it is pretty rough on a student coming out and having to owe $7000, and we have made representation to the federal government to cost-share the students' loans. Last year we put a proposition to them, not only Newfoundland, but the total of Canada, saying that if a student is totally dependent and he has to have something like $17,000 or $18,000 for a university career, there should be a shared forgiveness. That was put up but it was rejected.

So I think we want to bear in mind that the Provinces are still doing a fairly good programme in assisting students in getting into an education programme. Now, some mention was made about education standards and the cost of insurance. It was just three years ago, and I think the han. member for St. John's

April 25, 1978, Tape 1832, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSE: North (Mr. J. Carter) suggested that perhaps we go to taking away insurance completely and putting the money that we are putting in insurance in a kitty to take care of any losses that school boards would incur. Two years ago we initiated a new programme where we paid the total insurance.

That was a great boon to school boards and, I believe, we are doing it now more cheaply that we could do it, because that insurance company has all the school boards in the Province and they are doing rigid inspections in seeing that claims are justified and 1 also, they are checking on the safety in schools. So I believe with these costs of $2 million, that it would cost us more at the present time if we changed it. I do not know what it will be like, say, in the next round of negotiations for a ne~ contract; perhaps we will have to consider something.like that. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to have gotten back-to the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) who talked about quality education and standards. I think it was the kind of a speech that we could all be proud to hear, the kind of speech that a lot of us give sometimes at prize-givings because it does not enunciate motherhood and that sort of thing. One of the things that I think we have to bear in mind is the fact that we are spending a lot of money in education, the big is not always good. I react to quality education. I do not equate quality with variety. I do not equate quality with size.

I believe the trend now, in some school boards in the Province, is they are going to revert back to the smaller schools and I can give documented evidence of that· of one board in the Province. I think when you get two grades in a classroom,as it was years ago when you had no qualified teachers to go to these ..

April 25, 1978, Tape 1382, Page 3 -- apb MR. HOUSE: areas , it may have been some basis for the argument. But I think right now, where we have well qualified teachers in all parts of the Province, at all kinds of schools, it seems t0 us and to a lot of school boards that two grades in a classroom is not such a great detriment to quality edu c ation . The other thin"g, and I do not like to talk about frills in Newfoundland schools because I do not think we have any, but one of the things about variety across the United States, for instance, and into some parts of Canada is that the fact it has tended to lessen quality "! I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1383 EC - 1 ~!R. HOUSE: because pupils are opting for t he lesser kind of subject, the easier kinds of subjects. So I do not believe that the fact that a pupil is in a class with two grades is going to have a really major effect on his ability to get a good quality education. I want to carry on with that and mention about the fact some argument was made that some principals may have to do some teaching. Now, Mr. Speaker, again, as a former administrator and a former principal, I do not think' that is such a bad thing.

As a matter of fact, I am one of the persons who insisted at the district level that every principal do some teaching. And I did that for two particular reaso~s; one was the fact that the principal can certainly ~ave more input into curriculum while he is teaching and being knowledgeable of what is happening in ihe scho61, and the other thing is the fact that he sort of has more credibility among his teachers because he is actually working shoulder to shoulder with them. And I want to point out, Mr.

Chairman, that I happened to visit England in the last ca!endar year and I visited a boys' school of 750 pupils, which was one of these comprehensive schools where the principal was teaching ten hours out of the twenty-five. And I questioned him about this and he said, 'You know, I believe I can serve this scho~l better and the staff better by working with them and by being a teacher for one-third of the time' or whatever the time was - it was ten hours out of twenty-five. He said, 'First of all, if I am not teaching I am not kept aware of what is going on among the pupils and secondly - and this was a

April 25, 1978 Tape 1383 EC - 2 Z.1R. HOUSE: real answer I had not expected - he said, 'If I am not teaching I a~ going to be in the office and I am going to be thinking up things for teachers to do that is going to prevent them from doing their work.' And I thought it was a good bit of wisdom. Now I am not justifying principals having to teach, but the point I am saying is that I do not think it is going to be harmful to education if a principal in a fairly large school has to do some teaching.

With respect to administration, the hon. member mentioned that, and I think I have the same kinds of feelings he has about it. We have 134 supervisors throughout the Province and we have 32 superintendents,and I do not think that is excessive when w~ see the number of programmes that we have in our schools .and the number of pupils that are taking advantage of these programmes.

The thing though, perhaps, that we should be zeroing in on here is the fact that school boards have taken a lot of these people, got some supervisors that they have taken from regular classroo~s, and as a result of that, this is why we are hearing today in some cases that there are overcrowded classrooms, because we are giving, Mr. Chairman, one teacher for every twenty-six pupils, and in addition to that we are giving plus 355 specialists, 707 special education teachers and 134 supervisors.

So the only objection I have to the administration and utilizing people as sup~rvisors who were supposed to be regular teachers is it may be having an effect on quality by virtue of the fact that there are some schools that have inordinately large classes. :rr. Chairman, I think ny time is just about up, so thank you.

April 25, 1978 Ta;:e 1383 EC - 3 MR. CHA I Rl-fA!{: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. :·!R. ll . N. Ro:.;c;: Thank you, Sir . I hope the minister is not going to follow the practice of ge tting up after everyone S?eaks, Mr . Chairman, otherwise we are going to have a position where members on this side of the House - AN UON. :·!EHBER : He was responding to - ~!R • ~1. N • ROWE : Oh, I see, he was responding to the speech of the Qember for Terra ~ova (~r. Lush) which explains everything, Sir. So ~any points raised - ~!R. PECKFORD: Do not leave out the member for Po:t au Port ( Mr. Hodder). !·!~. iJ . ~ .

ROWE: Well, the meMber for Port au Port opened it for us, Sir. He is our spokesoan who made an exceptionally good speech. HR. HODDER: I read it out of the Evening Telegram . ::n. ;o~. :i. ROt·1C:: Did you?

April 25, 1978 Tape 1384 DW- 1 MR. W.N. ROWE: Well,the polls shows however, Sir, that more than· 17 per cent of the population thinks he is doing a good job. especially in his own district. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W .N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, this is a government, Sir, which either deliberately or not,as the case may be-one assumes it was not deliberately . is agovernment which is giving the impression throughout the Province that it is out to undermine, belittle and destroy the educational process that the Province has been building up over the last number of years.

Sir, education should be the very last thing, Mr. Chairman, that a government will cut back on if it has to~through no fault of its awn-and of course this does not apply ~o this government-but if it has through no fault of its own to cut back on expenditure,then education should be the very last thing to be cut back.

I say that, Sir, because whatever chance for development a province has,both as a province and for each individual young person coming up,whatever chance it has, Sir, it has no chance unless it improves its educational standards and makes sure that people are educated and trained adequately to develop our own Province or to fine good,high paying,satisfactory employment elsewhere in Canada,or in North America for that matter if need be.

But this is a government, Sir, which has seized upon education as one of the first things rather than the last:one of the first things to cut back on in order to pay for its other extravagances such as the Action Group and so on.

Everybody knows, Sir, what the government has done so far~lthas decided to lay off teachers,it has decided to give school boards the additional responsibility of paying 5 ·per cent more than the cost of operating school buses and, Sir, it has decided to increase · the cost to students of getting an education at the university and, Sir, it has cut its grants to the universtiy to such an extent that that insti­ tution is jeopardized as a viable institution of higher education.

The £act Sir. that a Provin re m:ov h .. _ poorer off than other provinces of Canada is no excuse for cutting back on education expenditure;as a matter of fact, Sir, the fact that a province is poor the fact that a province does not have the same amount of money as some of the other provinces of Canada :..

April 25, 19 78 Tape 1384 DW - 2 !1R. W.N. ROWE: is the very reason why a province like Newfoundland and Labrador should be spending a disproportioniately large amount of money on education in this Province at all levels- schools, Sir, trades schools and at university. But this govern- ment has decided that the education side of government expenditure will be a among the first to suffer. Take this teacher lay-off,for example,a lay-off which is announced long before any inquiry is made into whether it is going to diminish or hurt the standard of education in our Province.

Finally under pressure,the Minister of Education bows to the demand that a Task Force be set up in order to inquire into the quality and standards of education in our Province,but first the teacher lay-off takes place. Now, Sir, I hold no b-rief for the teachers,they are well able to look after themselves,and every member of this House of Assembly will agree,I believe,with me on that.

They have a highly organized association,well funded;they are,! suppose,themost single most articulate grou~in society,having perhaps the most pervasive influence in society.rhey do not need politicians to be holding a brief for them or arguing their case as teachers. But, Sir - MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. W.N. ROWE: What is the - MR. NEARY: He sounds like a moose. MR. W.N. ROIVE: A moose or a buffoon or a bassoon. MR. NEARY: Is this the mating season or w·hat? MR. W.N. ROWE: So seldom we hear from the member for St.

John's North, Sir, that one is a bit startled to hear his dulcet tones described by friend as the mating call of a bull moose. .~ f

April 25, 1978 HR. NOLA..N': savoury off him. MR. H. ROHE: A.!'l HON. XE~ER: ~.H. ROHE: Tape No. 1385 ~P.! - 1 No •mnder the Russians would not buy Yes. The former !1inister of Education. Yes, that is a former :linister of Education, Sir. Perhaps I am just talking about the periphery of things here <hen I am talking about the various aspects of education.

Perhaps the nub of our education problems may stem from the year or two of tenure by that hon. gentleman as l-!inister of Education, ~~hen ~1e l·ras aften~ards unceremoniously taken by the nape of the neck and flung out through the Cabinet door, Sir, by the Premier of the Province, unceremoniously and 11ithout apology, Sir, I might add, to anybody, including the hen. member. That was •,..hen the Premier had some control over his Cabinet and over the House, Sir. Since that tim~,o: course,he has lost control completely and he has not got the nerve to fling anybody out of the Cabinet anytoore nmv.

T:tey are leaving or threatening to leave in droves, 'ir. Chairman, but the Premier himself does not have the gumption to in fact do what he did sometime ago uith that hon. member for St. John's Xorth (~!r. J. Carter). Mr. Speaker, I understand that this teacher lay-off "ill have the effect of diminishing the quality of education in our schools, not so much as far as the three r's or the basics of education are concerned.

I understand, Sir, that the likelihood is that those things lvhich go to add something to our educational system, "'hether it be guidance counsellors, music teachers, things lv11ich raise education above the very basics of life as important as those basics of education are, something that raises it above that, Sir, is going to be adversely affected and that your.g boys and girls in this Provinc2 are simply not going to have anything near the opportunities which young boys a..'l.d girls have in other Provinces across Canada, because this hon. minister and the gove!'!III!ent has decided to cut the expenditures to be paid on teacher salaries, forcing therefore layoffs of teachers.

April 25, 1978 Tape ~o. 1385 N1!- 2 MR. H. ROWE: It '1as a very surprising move for a former teacher himself, Sir, a former principal,I understand, and a fermer superintendent of education. He must have bovred to the terrific'pressure brought to bear on him by his colleagues in the government, the Premier and those vJho were trying to get enough money laid to one side, $2 million, to pay the Action Group and their friends, the advertising agency based in Montreal, for political advertising and advertisi~g designed to shore up the sagging foundations of this government. But he caved in, ~~r. Chairman.

As ~nister of Education he did cave in and he has to answer for it. And we see this teacher layoff taking place a.nnotL."lced, Sir, as I mentioned earlier in an earlier speech, announced like an execution even before the trial itself had taken place. we only had the trial announced on Friday by way of a Task Force. Nmv, Sir, take the school buses, perhaps a mundane sort of issue to be arguing about in this House. But in fact, '"r.

G::lai=an, it is going to have the effect of seriously upsetting the balance in education between rural :>Te,iTfoundland and urban Ne,lfoundland,I an advised by peo?le '·Tho knoH t!J.e situation :1ere. School buses,of course,are used most in rural ~le"founclla."ld,and school boards, !'ir. Speaker, who have to undertaLe a larger part of that burden of paying for t'tlese school buses are going to have less money for other things 11hich their city counterparts may be able to :1ave.

The effect also, Sir, is going tc Jc the inequitable a."lc unfair one of forcing certain school t~ authorities to raise scl1ool taxes throughout this Province, 'vitt again the efi'cct th"-t r..1ral ~!e,>~fotL."'ldJ :u.cd ;.;ill suffer far greater tilan urlJa:J. :Te;;founuand. :rr. Speaker, tile uni,rcrsity situation, ;,ohere the r::inister has no·.v forcer: students to borrm.; more I:O.oney before they ca:J. qualify for student grants. ~~r.

Speaker, we produce on t:'" :.. average in t~is Province one half of the university students produceQ per capita across Canada &<d the same fizure,I understand,applies to trade school students and graduates, one half of the average across Can:J.da. \Je produce one quarter, :~r. Chair:~an, one quarter on the

April 25, 197S Tape Clo. 1385 :r:~ - 3 :"s.. \·1. ROl·TE : average per capita, one quarter of t~e university students uhich 2re produced by the Provinces of Alberta ,_ I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1386 PK - 1 MR. W. ROWE: and Ontario, one-quarter. And what this han. minister and this government have done now for their own misguided, perhaps political, selfish purpo ,ses, what they have done, Sir, has made it more difficult for young boys and girls, again particularly in rural Newfoundland,to get a university education.

If they had their way in the trade school system,which thankfully is financed largerly by the federal government through its various grants and so on, although we do not have enough by far, we do not have enough trade schools which is a Provincial responsibility, but thanks to the Department of Manpower Federally, Sir, they cannot get at the trade schools as they have the university so well, but they would do the same thing there I am sure.

But in the field of university education where we are less than half or around half the national average in production of students, and one-quarter of that produced in Alberta and Ontario. We now have a situation where. a minister is making it more difficult for students to go to university, particularly again, Mr. Chairman, students from remote areas of this Province in rural Newfoundland.

And what a callous , hypocritical situation it was to see the other night members, ministers on that side of the House rise and try to pretend some interest and concern for the people living in remoter areas of this Province in rural Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman. They are the students who are going to suffer. They already have a difficulty enough time getting in here to University,or starting it over in Corner Brook, as a result of financial problems.

Now, Sir, this is going to succeed in making it a difficult job of getting a university education c>.ll the more difficult,and I have been told already by several perspective university students, somealready at University and some perspective ones,that there is no way they can afford to incur the debt themselves or their families to come to university as a result of this increase in the cost and the borrowing that they are going to have to do in the coming year . . · •. ~ ' I

April 25, 1978 Tape 1386 PK 2 Mr. W. Rowe: Now, Mr. Chairman, the government's answer to all of this belately bowing under pressure from this side of the House and by people, teachers, and students, and people all over the Province, the government's answer is to appoint a Task Force to enquire into the situation. Finally, after the fact that the damage has been done, appoint a Task Force, Sir, and appoint,as we mentioned on Friday,two university professors to head it up. And I mentioned at that time, Mr.

Chairman, that these gentlemen for . all I know are well qualified, excellent gentlemen, university educators, university professors, but, Sir, I could not help wondering then why the sum total of all knowledge respecting education is thought to repose in two unversity professors.

And why did not the minister cast his net a little wider and broader and bring into that Task Force some people with other legitimate concerns, people ori school boards, parents, for example, concerned parents, trade school people, teachers, for example, who might look at it~as well,right ou~ of the school system, a civil servant or two, I do not see why it had to· be restricted to two people.

And I was appallLed to hear in the news, and the minister can correct me if I am wrong,that one of the reasons why we have these two university professors and nobody else on this Task Force is that the government in a very hasty,quick, fast, swift manner, it had to be thrown together quickly, Sir, so we could get our results quickly, So I say to the minister,what is the good of hasty and quick and fast results if they do not in fact do the job which is vitally required in this field of enquiry and examination?

It is much better to wait until the Fall of the year to get a report, Sir, and make sure we get a half decent report--and I am not saying these gentlemen will not bring in a half decent report. What I am saying is that the imput and the thought processes that will be brought to bear will not be broad or wide enough to convince me,for example, as a concerned parent and as a member of this House, convince me that the job was properly done.

It is much better for this government to put a freeze, as has been asked by us and by people throughout the Province, to put a freeze on the cuts in educational expenditure, increase the expenditure,

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1387 AH-1 MR.W.ROWE: have no teacher layoff, do not impose an additional burden on the school boards with regard to school buses thereby forcing school tax increases, do not raise the amount to be borrowed by the university, and increase in a reasonable,rational fashion the amount to go to the university for the running of the day to day activities, its current account operation and so on, leave all that alone, increase it in a normal manner, Iio not cut back until such time as a Task Force report or an enquiry of some sort brought into this House ti1rought the minister by a wide ranging,intelligent, concerned group can in fact be brought in, Sir, and then make the decision, the vital decision affecting education in this Province.

To do otherwise, Hr. Chairman, is to put the cart before the horse or.as I said,to pass sentence and then have the trial afterwards. And that is something which should not be done 1and this .:.s something which s:10uld not be done• And this government through the minister~~·ich I cannot understand from a man so concerned or ostensibly concerned with educatfon before he got into the government,I cannot understand why he would take this kind of an attitude which can only be characterized as incompetent. How much time do I have left, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Four minutes. HR. W.ROWE: Four minutes.

And, Sir, I wanted to make those points, There are a number of other points that I want to make as well which are perhaps just as important as these,which we will probably get into as the debate continues but I will mention it to the minister now. Mr. Chairman, what I want to talk about is what is in fact taught in our schools today.

Now "e talked in fact about the basics of education and so on,but I am amazed that in this day and age the government is taking no leadership, showing no leadership in two or three areas of curriculum, changes of curriculum in tnis Province, One is the change in curriculum which would have more to do with what goes on in this Province and what we all do as Newfoundlanders. I would say, Sir, there is very little aside from a little Newfoundland history

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1387 • AH-2 Hi..W.ROWE: which goes anywhere near trying to inculcate, trying to put into cnildren's minds a sense of identity with Newfoundland and Labrador as a Province, in a sense, Sir, that this place is a valuable place, a place well worth living in, a place to be proud of. I am not talking about misguided patriotism, I am talking about a sense of identity among children as they are growing up in school throughout this Province. Now, Sir, one or two other things.

I am amazed, for example,that schools do not deal with things which seem to have some practical use for people who graduate out of high school, some teaching on consumer creJit or in government programmes or even some idea as to duties and rights of citizens under the law. There is no mention made of this in school anymore. I understand the old civics programme is even thrown out the ccor. Very little, very little, ~ir, in the way of curriculum changes or curriculum development whi~h would help students when they get out into the world of working and so on.

Nothing, Sir, as I understand it, on drugs and alcohol,and work opportunities and so on except what is provided by guidance counsellor~, perhaps,who,I understand,again are going to be one of the first to suffer perhaps from these changes and these layoffs of teachers in school. Hr. Chairman, I would commend a number of tnese things to the minister. I may have a few more words to say particularily on this area of curriculum changes and curriculum development as time goes on. But, Sir, it seems to me that education in this Province has stagnated. It has not stagnated because teachers are not interested.

They certainly are interested. It has not stagnated because the school boards are uninterested because tney are interested~or the DEC's. I think, Sir, that education in this Province has stagnated and is in fact now in grave danger of going behind because there is no leadership shown by this government. This ~;,inister, he may be a capable man but he seems to be a little out of his depth in the I ' • I I I '1

April 25, 1978 Tape No. 1387 JH - 3 MR. W.N. RO.WE: portfolio of Minister of Education. But, Sir, there is no leadership being shown in the field of education. Nothing I ' . '

April 25, 1978 Tape 1388 EC - 1 HR. W. N. ROHE: to change things for the better. As a matter of fact, we have a minister, Sir, who has, in fact, caved in, has collapsed under the demands of his colleagues, was not able to get for education in this Province a fair share of the government pie, and expenditure on education has been allowed to go down.

And once that starts to happen, Sir, quality in education is going to be adversely affected and we are going to see our children - my children and yours - and students throughout this Province who are not going to have an equal opportunity in education to students found throughout Canada. And if Canada as a nation means anything, Sir, it has to oean that there must be a basic floor foundation level below which these basics of life ;annat sink, and education is one of the prime basics o( life.

It should be the last thing to be cut as far as spending is concerned, because without a developing education system, without our students having the same opportunities for a good education as people throughout the rest of Canada, Sir, then we are going to fi~d that Newfoundland and Labrador will fall further behind the rest of Canada as far as our economy is concerned.

It is penny-wise, Sir, and pound-foolish to cut expenditures on education, and I commend to the minister sincerely and wholeheartedly this suggestion that he revise, review what he is doing, put a freeze on cutbacks and make sure that a good task force is set up and that a good report comes in and then a sense of direction take -n on education· and the proper,rational and sensible decisions on the development of education in this Province take place in the Fall of the year and next year, Mr. Chairman. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Chairman. ~!R. CRAI::U!AN : The hon. the member for Grand Falls.

April 25, 1978 Tape 1388 EC - 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is maybe one of the most important debates that has taken place in the Legislature and I certainly welcome the opportunity to participate.

I envy the Hinister of Education and I also have a great deal of feeling for the position that he finds himself in today because he is involved in a debate which is significant and,at the same time, an area which is a very difficult area because of the fact of money in the Province and the fact that we do not seem to have the financial resources sometimes to do what we recognize must be done.

Sut I would like to start off by putting a couple of facts on the table to see if I can point out a conclusion which I believe to be a fundamental and realistic one about education that is being overlooked,and I believe that we are to a considerable extent missing the boat and missing the point in the whole debate on education here in this assembly. Because like most people when they get involved in a complicated field they look at one particular point or one particular thing to hang your argument on .and away you go and you might not look at the thing from the broadest perspective.

Now, I have the greatest respect for everybody participating,and I have a greater respect for the people who have a background in education like the member for Terra Nova (2~. Lush) and the minister himself when they speak, because I do believe they can speak from a professional authority. I would like to pay compliments to and respect to Dr. Llew Parsons before I make any more comments, because much of what I have to say can be traced to his research. Dr. Llew Parsons is a South Coast man

April 25, 1978 Tape 1388 EC - 3 HR. LUNDRIGAN: and a person who is eminent in his field at the university and one of the people who, I believe, has a great deal of soul and feeling for education in our Province aside from the fact that he is a professional educator. I have had many discussions with Dr. Parsons. I shared an office with him for some time when I was at the university doing a little bit of teaching myself there and I would like to make sure that anything I say can be traced to him, because much of what has been done in research is his work. I just would like to lay a couple of facts on the table.

Number one is a table from Dr. Parsons' recent presentation in llarch on Unemployment and Education in our Province. And he . presented a table from his speech which indicated the growth in the labour force in our Province today and the employment rate. An~ what he looked at was in 1966 we had 131,000 people in the labour force; we had 192,000 people in the labour force in 1977 - 131,000 people in 1966 and 192,000 people in 1977 with an increase of 46.6 per cent in the labour force - that is,the people between the ages of fifteen and up who are looking actively, pursuing employment.

He indicates the employment rate - that is the number of people who are actually employed~ during that period, compared with those who could be e~~loyed has not varied hardly at all. l·!e have had 42 per cent of the people employed of the

April 2S, 1978, Tape 1389, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: total population in l966 1 we had 42.S per cent in 1977. We have had a very substantial increase in the labour force, we have had a relatively stagnant situation in the employment opportunities, the number of people employed. I could go onandelaborate on that table because it has a wealth of information. I commend it to hon. members. What it does point out is that new people coming into the labour force, relatively speaking, generally speaking, are not finding employment.

Statistics Canada points out that of the 30,000 people unemployed in our Province, 16,000 of these people are between the ages of lS years and 24 years. They also conclude that the chances of getting a job in Newfoundland, if you are between the ages of lS years and 24 years, without a high school education is about half as gr~at, or SO per cent as great as if you had a high school education. So let us look at it again: Between lS and 24 years of age SO per cent of the people, roughly, that are unemployed in the Province fall into that category.

Another fact is, that roughly SO per cent of the people between these ages are unemployed. It is a different statistic, if you get the point that I am making. And more importantly, people between lS and 24 years of age who do not finish high school have roughly half the opportunity of getting a job as those that are, in fact, finishing high school. So if you look at somebody dropping out of school between lS and 24 years of age, their chances are very meagre, twenty-oed per cent of an opportunity to get a job in our Province today. Twenty- odd per cent are the chances of getting a job. Go a little step further.

Let us look at the Province recognizing that we have a greater labour force than we have job opportunities, recognizing as well that even if we had the best education ' I . !

April 25, 1978, Tape 1389, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN : system in the world, if everybody had five doctors degrees, you are still not going to solve the unemployment problem. But let us go another step further and recognize that the opportunities we have are not available to a lot of Newfoundlanders. The Government House Leader, the Leader of the Opposition and other members will be the first to point out that in our Province today many jobs are going begging because Newfoundlanders do not seem to be able to have the background or the training to grasp them.

The minister right here to my right, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing tells me off and on when we make jobs available, when there are opportunities becoming available, when it comes to the Public Service Commission's decision, very frequently they look outside our Province. Because it does. not seem that in certain areas and certain fields we have the background or the training, whatever the case might be, a matter of great concern in a Province that has 30,000 people unemployed. Dr.

Parsons went on to look at,in our Province, areas of demand for employment, and he looked at construction superintendents- there is a moderate demand. Accountants, auditors, other financial officers, a slight demand.

Mineralogists - or however you would pronounce that thing - slight demand; forestry technicians, slight demand; architechtural engineers, slight demand; draftsmen, slight demand; computer programme people, moderate demand; nursing superintendents or supervisors, moderate demand; physiotherapists - and I know -this for a fact - occupational therapists, extreme demand; pharmacists, moderate demand; medical laboratory technologists, moderate demand; electrical power linesmen, extreme demand; linesmen, extreme demand and it goes on like this. Bricklayers, moderate demand. Then he looks at where there r

April 25, 1978, Tape 1389, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: is an oversupply or a moderate supply or an extreme supply. Nursing assistants, moderate supply; tellers, cashiers, clerks, extreme supply of people who can fill these positions; guardsmen and watchmen, extreme supply; sheet metal workers, small supply; painting and decorating, extreme supply; excavating, gravelling, shovelling, extreme supply; rough carpenters, extreme supply; pipefitters and plumbers, extreme supply; deck crews, extreme supply; truck drivers - light, extreme supply and he goes on.

What he really tells us in his documentation gotten from Manpower is that in our Province today the opport~ities - where the opportunities are, or where they really could be. If we had a discovery of oil and gas or a~ explosion in the fisheries in the technology field or the rese~ch field and so on, when these opportunities arrive or are there our people are not goin,g to be able to take advantage of them. That is a matter of grave, grave concern. I threw out those couple of statistics, ., ' ... ... ) l· l I I I I _,. ~ I. ''· .;

April 25, 1978 Tape 1390 MR. LUNDRIGAN: throw out those couple of fact·s and I will get back to what I consider the core of the problem in our Province today in respect to EC - 1 education. And when I finish those couple of statistics I hope that members can draw the conclusion that if we attack the problem from the right level we would not be talking about a declining enrolment, we would not be talking about 180 teachers laid off, we would be talking about an expanding enrolment and we would be talking about 200 or 300 new jobs for teachers this year with the same school system that we have today.

I am going to quote from statistics which were prepared by Dr. Art Sullivan, a study investigating the extent to which the decisions to continue education through high school and attend university is influenced by certain factors. And he ~•ent on and he pointed out what we have in respect to student retention in our schools today. Student retention - how many students who start school, finish school - one of the ~ost dramatic and startling statistics that any Newfoundlander would want to hear about. But when you present them like Dr. Sullivan does or Dr.

Parsons, people do not pick them up because they do not sound controversial enough. I want to put them on the record. In 1971, of the 14,700 students who started Grade !l nine yeers earlier, 4,300 of them successfully completed Grade XI- 29 per cent of the students who·started Grade-If successfully completed Grade XI. In 1972, 14,900 students 1-1ho started Grade II nine years earlier - that wnuld have been 1963 - 4,800 completed Grade XI, 33 per cent. In 1973, 15,195 started nine years earlier, Grade II - 30 per cent finished. Away we go, down to 1977 - 15,100 started,

April 25, 1978 Tape 1390 EC - 2 HR. LUlWRIGAN: 5,800 finisheG - 38 per cent . In those two, four, six, seven years that I presented the statistics on, 35 per cent on the average of the students who started school in Grade II went through to successful complete Grade XI. Hhy are we talkint; about a declining birth rate? The declining birth rate is ~ot the reason why we have a problem in our Province. It is the rEason in Ontario.

And let me just go on to tell you why in Ontario, of the students who start school in Grade II - or start going in Grade I. 95 per cent of them reached Grade XI - not Grade ~II, they have Grade XII - 95 per cent of them reached Grade XI; Alberta, 95 per cent of them reached Grade XI; British Columbia, 95 per cent of the~ reached Grade XI. And by the way, appro~imately twice the number successfully complete Grade XI as we do have in our Province today. Now, in their schools de2lining enrolment is a real problem, because if 10 per cent less students start chances are 10 per cent less students finish.

But in our Province 34 per cent of the students who start finish Grade XI. Now that is a tragedy - that is a real tragedy~ And if we had the ways and means and objectives and program~es and the like to retain our students in school today, which is the minimum that a student should have - to be able to carry on a good conversation, to be able to carry on the communications that tave to go on today, to be able to just live a nor~al social life today you al~osi-have to have at least Grade XI. There is where your problem is - your declining enrolment.

And I would like to say to the NTA and to the minister and to other people, let us get off the simplistic kick that we are on - A!~ HON .. :1E:·!BER: Hear, hear! :..

A!>ril 25, 1978 Tape 1390 EC - 3 ~m. . LCXDRICAX: - with respect to the problem that we have today. AN ROl:. ~El!BER : Hear , hear! :.m. LUNDRIG .. Ui : Let us sec on to the nub of the problem . ~ow let me boil it cown a little fur ther. What have we done in our schools, what have we done in Newfoundland because of the eeclinins enrolment? What have we done because of the fact t hat we do not have Grade XI I ? lie hav:e gone over to !!enori:1l and tve have introd~ced what they call the Junior Division. How many people know about the Junior Division at Memorial?

The Junior Division at ~e~orial is an excuse !or not having as go od an educational program=e a t the secondary level as we should hav e, but i t only caters to the small little group of people that set to t~e university. That is all it cat ers to. It do es not cater to the whole ?Opulation of our Province.

And I raise the question - I will not make the accusation, I will not make the recomme:~dation - bu t I •.:ill raise the question as to tvhetcler it wou l d not be better for our school system today,usins the same books tha t we have if we were to ques tion the Junior Division at Memor ial and look at reinforcing the

April 25, 1978 Tape No. 1391 RT-1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: secondary school system that we have in our Province today. That is the kind of question that people have to get at. You are not going to get the University administration to agree with that because they will say that you need a junior division plus another junior division plus Grade XII and the like.

Maybe we cannot afford all of the things that we would like to have but I question if we would not be better off taking the several million dollars that are going into trying to upgrade, that is what it is doing, upgrade the few students who eventually get to Memorial. Also, Mr. Speaker, I will go on to say that we have to question why our retention rate is so low. One of the reasons is that people are - and Dr. Parsons did a survey on this, and the number one thing that came out is they said, 'We are going out to earn more money, to earn a bit of money'.

The fact is, do they know that by going out into the economy the chances are almost negligible that if you leave school in Grade VIII or Grade IX that you are going to earn any money, unless you get your eight weeks. The students have a better opportunity to leave school if they are in Ontario and not finish their schooling than they have in our Province. So their expectations - somebody has to tell them a few facts or there have to be ways and means to get that message across.

Maybe more importantly is the fact that - I am concerned and I have talked to the minister quite frequently about this, about the type of program that we are offering our students today in Newfoundland schools. How many students today are doing chemistry? An absolutely essential type of course to get involved in. I do not say that we have enough chemistry teachers. I would say that we have to go to England or to India or some other country to get chemistry teachers to teach our students today. How many students are &Qng physics in our Province today?

How many students are doing biology, especially as it relates to marine environment? How many students are doing handicraft :..

April 25, 1978 Tape No. 1391 RT-2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: work? How many students are doing industrial art program? How many students are doing courses that relate to fish­ processing which is becoming the thing that - some schools are, a lot of schools are on their own initiative, taking up the cudgel like the school in Harbour Grace, like St. Geor3e 's that I spoke at the other day, the St. George's High in Trinity South - some of the schools are but I am concerned that it is not a fundamental part of our program enough.

I am suggesting that our program has to be adapted much more fundamentally to tailor the needs of our Province. Even by doing that over a period of years we are still going to have problems with unemployment and problems with lack of opportunity. I am a little concerned that we are educating two types of students:- One who goes into university;and one who does not know what to do. l1hen he finishes his Grade XI he is no better off than if he left in Grade VII or Grade VIII or if he never went to school at all.

All are doing a wishy-washy, waterea-aown program so that they do not make the University they do not make it anywhere. I am a little concerr-ed about that. I have seen examples of it. I did a little-survey for the Federal Government one time in a little country in one part of the world that I spent a couple of weeks in, where a lot of foreign aid went, and they were educating their students to leave their country, educating them for the North American environment, for the U.S. environment. Maybe that is what we are doing in part here in our Province today as well.

I would also like to raise the question - I have mentioned the program, I have mentioned the junior division at Hemorial - I would also like to raise the question about administrative costs. Shortly, I hope, there will be tabled in the Province, an analysis that was done by Dr. Parsons and Dr. Warren on behalf of the Denominational F.ducational Committee about the administrative costs of education.

I am concerned that if we look very closely from the business of the school board, superintendent, supervisors, who are becoming almost like the original comptroller, the inspector, rather than just a program developer, your curriculum specialists, your department heads, your principals, your ..

April 25, 1978 Tape No. 1391 RT-3 MR. Ll.lNDRIGAN: vice-principals , if you look at all that cost 1 am a little concerned it is out of whac