Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 8 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No.8- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, March 12, 1997 ISSN 0542-549?

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

361 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, March 12, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS , PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Noelle Boughton, Brian Stone, Callie Mashtoler and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I have the pleasure to present a report today under The Trade Practices Inquiry Act dated and effective March II, 19 97. I would like to table that report. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Personal Care Homes Funding Formula Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a number of questions about the increased funding to profit personal care homes in the last annual reports of the Department of Health, which of course was the '95- 96 year over the '94-95 year.

The minister undertook to look at those numbers and report back to the Legislature. In fact, he did report back to the media and to the public, and he stated that the reason why the increases for private, profit homes went up as opposed to nonprofit homes was in fact that there was, quote, an increase in beds. Could the Premier please advise this House why his minister would say there was an increase in beds in the personal care home area when in the 19 95-96 year over the 19 94-95 fiscal year in the annual reports there was indeed no increase in personal care home beds? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, yesterday in responding to the media I certainly speculated on what could be the difference in those numbers, because I was working off of a very limited amount of information that the Leader of the Opposition provided. When I have had the opportunity to check back in greater details, the member may know we have a mix of facilities in this province, but there are a host of factors dealing with each one, and the member's assertions before this House that somehow there is some special deal being cut are absolutely wrong.

The factors that fit into the funding for each particular facility deal with variables such as the recognition of increased levels of care, funding of special needs units, wage- An Honourable Member: Answer the question, Darren. Mr. Praznik: Well, the member asked me to answer the questions. I am. Because the member does not like the truth or the facts is no particular excuse not to hear the answer. As I said, in those calculations are things like the effects of inflation, new and expanded facilities, closed facilities and reduction in interest rates.

All of those factors work into those calculations, and the member for Concordia should know that. * (1 335) An Honourable Member: You are wrong again, eh, Doer? Mr. Doer: Well, Madam Speaker, perhaps the Premier (Mr. Filmon) would like to answer the questions about the truthfulness of his Minister of Health. I want to table the Department of Health briefing notes that would have been available to the Minister of

362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 19 97 -------------------------- �--- Health, would have been available to the Premier, were available to us, dealing with those annual reports which in fact report and record no increase in personal care home beds, belie the answers of the Minister of Health, and show that the Minister of Health was grasping at straws yesterday but grasping at the wrong straws in terms of the public. I want to ask the Premier, how can his Minister of Health tell us there was an increase in personal care home beds when the Department of Health's own docu ments show the opposite?

What kind of honesty and truth do we get from this kind of government opposite? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, yesterday in the House the Leader of the Opposition quoted numbers out of an annual report. I indicated to this House that I would go back and check out the factors that go into those numbers, which I have reported back today. In the hallway, in dealing with the media, speculated as to what those could be composed of and I indicated to the media, many of whom were there, that I would be checking back and I had to check the dates for which the Leader of the Opposition was quoting.

In doing that, the factors are very clear as to what those different rates are, and the only dishonesty we have seen is the member for Concordia trying to stretch something into something it is not. Point of Order Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 492 clearly lists "dishonesty" as being unparliamentary, and coming from a minister who just admitted that he went out of this House and speculated on a very serious matter, that is not only something that should be withdrawn but is absolutely unacceptable. The only person in this House who should be now telling the truth is the Minister of Health. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Although the word "dishonest" appears on both lists, I previously have ruled the words "dishonest" and "dishonesty" unparliamentary on four separate occasions, and I have been advised that the former Speaker also had ruled the words unparliamentary. So I would ask the honourable Minister of Health to withdraw the word "dishonesty." Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I will withdraw that. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Minister of Health. * * * Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the question about the funding in private, profit homes versus the nonprofit homes here in Manitoba.

The Minister of Health said he would go back and review his numbers. He went back to his department and reviewed his numbers and went out in the hallway and speculated on why the increases were greater when he stated that the beds had been increased. Given the fact that the numbers of beds for the '95-96 fiscal year were available in the Department of Health, they were available to members of the opposition, why would the Minister of Health speculate in the hallway, rather than putting out the numbers that were accurate which would contradict what he told the public and what he told the media?

Why would he do that? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, we see again how the Leader of the Opposition \viii take facts and try to link them in such a way that are not representative of the true situation. When I spoke to the media, I had not yet had a report back from my department. The information-[ interjection] The member for Concordia was not in my office. nor did he speak to my staff. * (1 340) Point of Order Mr. Doer: A point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Premier, just having refused to answer the questions that I posed to him, used the term "dishonest" again in this Chamber which you have just cautioned all of us to be careful in terms of its use. Further to that. I have asked on three occasions for the Minister of Health to do the honourable thing and

March 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 363 correct the public record on his statement to the media and the public that the bed issue had increased. He knows the facts now. What he should do is the honourable thing, answer my question and state that he was wrong in his statement to the public and apologize to the public for being wrong to them in the hallway with his so-called speculation. Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): On the same point of order, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The Leader of the Opposition distinctly called the Minister of Health a liar from his seat. Now he thinks that is acceptable, but he sets rules for other people that he is not willing to abide by himself. That is what is unacceptable in this House, the kind of hypocritical, two-faced approach that he takes to this. He thinks he can say anything from his seat, but then he can jump up when he feels that somebody else has said something that is unacceptable. That is what we need, one set of rules that the opposition obeys as well as the government. Mr. Doer: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker.

I did say that that is a lie, and I withdraw it. I did not call the minister a liar, but I did say that is a lie; I withdraw it. But I would like the minister to withdraw the facts that he speculated on yesterday, and I would like the Premier to withdraw his comments and do the honourable thing. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Leader of the official opposition. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. Having heard the member abide by the same set of rules that we all agree we should, I will withdraw the term "dishonest" as well. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minister.

That then concludes the matter regarding the point of order. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to respond to the question asked. Mr. Praznik: As I indicated yesterday, I would report back. There are a host of factors, as I have said in this House in answer to the questions, that affect the difference of funding of those beds, and it is clear from the numbers that I have before me. One factor, for example, that works into that that the member seems to ignore is that our proprietary homes carry a higher level proportionately of three and four care than our nonproprietary homes.

There are a host of factors. Each one will affect each facility differently, which will give the cumulative total. If the member would like to come to the Estimates debate on this matter, I would be pleased to get into intricate detail with the member for Concordia for each ofthe facilities involved. Personal Care Homes Funding Formula Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the difficulty here is that we have major problems in the private personal care homes. We have the private personal care homes getting a doubling of the grants since '92-93.

We have them giving over $50,000 in 1995 to the Conservative Party, and we see that every single private personal care home in Winnipeg received an increase since 1992-93,

whereas the public ones, 15 of them, received a decrease. My question to the minister or the Premier is, why have the private personal care homes been treated better than the public personal care homes? What is the difference, Madam Speaker? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): When you try to stretch facts to create the appearance of truths that are not, you always get into, I think, the wrong kind of debate that the public would expect from us. The member's information is wrong.

In fact, I am pleased to share with this House that the cost of care in our proprietary facilities is actually, on a per-bed day basis when all the factors are taken into account, less than the other facilities.

364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 *

(1345) Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, perhaps then the minister can explain why last year when the province provided $2.6 million in addition to personal care homes-that is '96-97-the private homes got $1.5 million of that and over a hundred public homes only got $1.1 million and the 19 privates got $1.5 million. What is the difference from last year? And can the minister explain that difference? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the personal care home system in our province, both proprietary and nonproprietary, is an evolving system.

There are a host of factors that fit into it each and every year, things that I have mentioned, changes in levels of care, funding for special needs units, wage settlements, inflation, new and expanded facilities, facilities that may be closed, and that is going to affect the funding for each facility. The lines in the budget that the member referred to, I believe, are on totals. We will get into the detail, but for '96-97 our funded proprietary homes at Levels 3 and 4 cost us $99 a day compared to $102.30 per day in the nonproprietary. That is less, not more as the member would indicate. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, perhaps the minister can try to explain to this House why, in 1992-93 when the Kildonan and River East private nursing homes, both great contributors to the Conservative Party, were opened they received a special increased rate for the per diem to pay off their mortgage of$12 to $14, which is greater than had ever been done in Manitoba, allows them to pay off their mortgage, end up owning the home and have a guaranteed clientele from the government. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, as the member may be aware-I would hope they are; I suspect perhaps not and still ask the question-in the funding for nonproprietary homes we do not calculate in that cost the cost of capital, and that is why in fact arrangements are made for capital. If you look at the straight cost of providing the service, as I pointed out before, in the proprietary homes that the member is referring to, the information that I am provided by our financial people says $99 a day compared to $102.30. An Honourable Member: Plus $14 a day for capital. Mr.

Praznik: Well, Madam Speaker, yes, but in every case, the other homes, the capital is also covered by the Province of Manitoba. An Honourable Member: It is not apples and oranges. Mr. Praznik: Well, Madam Speaker, we can debate this in Estimates. Education System Funding Formula Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, school boards across Manitoba are faced yet again with many disheartening and even unconscionable decisions to cut programs and raise taxes, and every one of those tax increases must be laid at the feet of this government.

Minus two, minus 2.6, zero, minus two and zero, cut after cut to public education. I would like to ask the Minister of Education why it is that she continues to ignore the advice of her own Educational Advisory Council, which says the value of provincial support as a proportion of actual total Manitoba pool public school operating costs should not be allowed to decline further. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member had a lengthy

preamble which I do believe needs to be addressed in the answer because. if she is saying that the amount of money divisions have to raise depends upon the amount flowed to them by their provincial government, may I with respect point out that this year for example, in Winnipeg No.

I, they are having to raise about $3 million on their special levy as an increase from last year, and while they were flowing abundant money to school divisions, ""they"' being the NDP government in power, sufficient supposedly to meet their needs in '85- 86 for one example-and I will give them all if she would like-they had to raise $13 million, an increase on the amount needed to be raised by the special levy of 28.9 percent. I would table for the House the percentage change in the provincial average special levy.

The amount that school divisions had to raise when the NDP were in power, in 1984 they had to have an increase of I 0.6 percent; in 1985, 11.6 percent; in 1986, 15.7 percent,

March I 2, I 997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 365 then compared to ours of 3 percent and 5 percent, Madam Speaker. I table that for their edification. Maybe they are more cautious when they say all the money that flows is reflective of what the province provides. *

(1350) Ms. Friesen: To the same minister: Could that same Minister of Education confirm that the bottom line for Manitobans is that when her government came to power in I 988, the provincial grant to public schools was 15.6 of overall expenditures? Today it is 14 percent and it is going down, and what that means is a long-term deficit for Manitoba children. Mrs. Mcintosh: The member knows that the percentage will reflect the expenditures as well.

The member knows that between '85 and '95, which is the last year we have the full stats available, the funding for education went up from the government to the school divisions by some 38.6 percent. Inflation, at the same time, was 39 percent, running roughly parallel through that time. School division expenditures, on the other hand, climbed by 54 percent, 15 percent higher than the rate of inflation. School board spending outstripped inflation by 15 percent. So, naturally, the percentage of the money funded by the province will show as a lower amount.

The fact remains we are currently funding education to $I 15 million more this year than the year we took office, and school divisions have been able to hold as a result-you can see by the paper I tabled-their tax increases and their percentage changes on the special levy down for their taxpayers compared to the massive increases they were compelled to impose upon their public when the NDP say they were flowing enough money to them to meet their needs. They were not, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, has the minister, who is now facing resolutions at conventions, deputations and petitions from very, very concerned parents on a daily basis, something I do not think we saw during the NDP years, has she considered the long-term consequences of her double attack on Manitobans, the cuts to public school funding and the long-term deficit for children and her increases to property taxes leading to serious injustices across the province for those people who are on declining incomes under this governm ent and those people who are on fixed incomes? Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not accept the

preamble as I accept very little of the member's

preambles in most questions. Sometimes I accept them but not often, and that is usually because they frequently contain incorrect information or insinuations or allegations that do not hit the mark. Winnipeg No. 1, for example, has an average operating expenditure that is 13.2 percent above the provincial average, so we have those kinds of anomalies for spending. I am not questioning how they are spending their money or why they are spending their money the way they do, I am just stating that as a fact.

The member, I think, has to acknowledge that school divisions have been able to contain their tax increases, their special levy changes far more admirably under our governance than they were ever able to when her government was in power. The record is clear, a 28.9 percent difference, increase in the amount having to be raised by special levy the last year they were in full governance. That is a disgraceful record. Ours compares very well by comparison. Province of Manitoba Revenue Forecast Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, the Urban Affairs minister has announced a $6.3-million increase in unconditional grants to the City of Winnipeg. As I estimate it, this is a I 9 percent increase over last year and comes from a program set up by the Schreyer government back in the I 970s whereby-based on 2.2 points of personal income tax and one point of corporate income tax and indicates that income tax revenues are up considerably.

Would the Minister of Finance confirm that his revenue increase for 1996-97 is much higher than he has been willing to admit so far and that the government's draconian cuts to health and education programs are not justified? *

(1355) 366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I will admit to part of what the member referred to, and that is that our revenues are up. I am sure he has taken the time to read our Third Quarter Report, which was released several weeks ago, which does show that our revenues are up by in excess of$100 million primarily because our economy is performing very well here in Manitoba. We have over 20,000 new jobs; we have amongst the highest growth in retail sales, amongst the highest growth in exports, amongst the highest growth in many aspects of our economy.

Our revenues are up. We are the only province in Canada that shares our personal income tax and our corporate income tax with our municipalities, and -that is good news for our municipalities because, as announced today, the City of Winnipeg will receive an adjustment of in excess of $6 million and the rest of the municipalities in Manitoba will receive an adjustment of about $4.4 million. So all municipalities are sharing in the growth in our economy. Mr.

Leonard Evans: More specifically, will the minister confirm that his revenues could be close to $200 million greater than forecast and that the minister really seriously has understated the provincial revenue situation in this province? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, obviously the member has been reading Frances Russell and listening to the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) too much. No, I will not admit that. It certainly would be nice for all Manitobans if what he is suggesting does come through to be ultimately the fact.

I think we all take pride in exceeding our budget targets, unlike what happened during the NDP days when the news was always progressively worse each and every time a budget came out. We were budgeting a surplus of $22 million. The good news is that we are going to have a budget surplus of about $56 million. Even though our revenues are up $118 million, there are some pressure points on expenditures. We are putting $80 million more into health care for the Home Care program, for the Pharmacare program, meeting the needs of Manitobans. That is something we should all be proud of in this House, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Leonard Evans: With my final question, Madam Speaker. In spite of the fact that we had the biggest deficit in the history of this province in 1992-93, the biggest that we have ever realized in one year-at any rate, now that is behind us. Will the minister admit that he can no longer plead lack of funds as a reason to continue cutting health, education and social services, and that it is time to call a halt to undermining the quality of life ofthe people ofthis province? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think what Manitobans will never forget is that the NDP quadrupled the debt in Manitoba, took Manitoba to the highest taxed province in all of Canada, took it so our debt servicing was crowding out our ability to provide quality health care, quality education and services to families. That is why we are proud that we have balanced our budget two years in a row in spite of, at this point in time over the next five years, $1.1 billion less in funding from the federal Liberal government. That is a major accomplishment on behalf of all Manitobans. *

(1400) Community Health Clinics Future Status Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Health. This government now has been in office for eight and a half years, and this government still today has been unable to recognize the importance of managing change in health care. In fact, Madam Speaker, when they had the action plan, the great Action Plan for Health Care Reform, it talked about community health clinics and the importance of expanding that role.

Recently it has been reported in a few media outlets I had the opportunity to visit in Montreal and while in Montreal- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member for Inkster have a question? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Speaker. My question to the Minister of Health is: what is this government doing to ensure that the community health clinics are going to be expanded into the future? If you compare what Manitoba has to the province of Quebec, we have nothing to a far superior class of community health

March 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 367 clinics. This government has been failing at delivering health care services into the communities. When is the government going to in fact enhance community health clinics? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think many of the changes that we are working on the health system would be much easier to bring about if we had not had his federal colleagues in Ottawa reduce our transfer payments for health to the degree that they have.

Besides that, as the member knows, as we move to the regionalized health delivery system in this province, the opportunities to develop more primary care clinics in a host of forms are certainly there, and we are working towards that goal. I can tell the member from the reports that I have had from many of the regional health authorities that I have met with over the last number of weeks, that is certainly a goal they are incorporating in their planning. I think over the next couple of years we are going to see a very significant expansion in that particular area.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the Minister of Health is actually fairly specific. What we are looking for is something that is tangible. In the last eight and a half years we have not seen that. The question is, to what degree is this particular minister prepared to commit to the future growth of the community health clinics? That is how we are going to be able to deliver better quality health to all Manitobans. When are we going to see action, not talk, from this government when it comes to health care services in this province? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, as the member may be aware, there has been a great deal of effort in the planning process as we move along. The Assiniboine Clinic that was created by my predecessor, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), is one of the, I think, first pilots of that in terms of a primary care model. We are following that very diligently because the numbers and the information we garner will become the basis on negotiating that model across the province. I can tell the member that we are detecting a considerable interest from people in this field to look at this model and expand it across the province.

I suspect it is going to take off with great support. Home Care Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge and follow what the Quebec health clinics are doing where they are now actually providing home care services through the clinics? The government is on the road of privatization. Will this minister acknowledge that these health clinics should be playing the primary role of delivering home care services to our seniors and others who require it? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think if you look at the model that is quickly developing across this province with respect to home care, as of April I our provincial services will evolve under the regional health authorities. Part of their plan is obviously to incorporate that into the complete structure. [interjection] The member yells privatization. No, not at all. I would suggest as we look down the system that that is not likely to be the general case across the province.

I would also suggest in Winnipeg, as we create the Winnipeg long-term community care board, the same type of evolution in combining those functions is going to take place, and I think it is going to happen in relatively short order as these authorities get up and running and are able to amalgamate and integrate those services. Shoal Lake Health Care Facility Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, on June 17, 1994, the Minister of Health promised a new health facility to Shoal Lake, a promise which was included in a huge pre-election capital announcement in March of 1995 and then cancelled after the election. A recent letter signed by the mayor and reeves of Shoal Lake indicates our present facility is time-expired, and we would appreciate your consideration on this critical matter.

In light of the fact that dozens of people from Shoal Lake have called for the construction of this facility, I would like to ask the Minister of Health, when does his government plan to live up to its promise to build a new health care facility in Shoal Lake?

368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I know members opposite have followed some recent announcements by my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) with respect to an additional $150 million that this government has committed to our capital expenditures. I am sure they will listen with great interest on Friday as he delivers the provincial budget.

One comment I would add to the member for Swan River, I think it is going to be very, very important for communities working with their regional health authorities to be looking at and assessing the true needs that they have in communities as these projects in the future will be considered: Ms. Wowchuk: Since this government has changed the rules and is now waiting for communities to come up with money for their health care facilities, can the minister tell us whether this is going to have any implication on delaying the construction of this facility at Shoal Lake? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I believe the member for Swan River is referring to some discussion that both my predecessor and I have had in public forums about the possibility of a community contribution policy. I would suggest the member wait until Friday for any comment that might be on that subject in the budget. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since the people at Shoal Lake are desperate for a new facility, I want to ask the minister whether the people of Shoal Lake should maybe start making some political donations to the Conservative Party and help them along to ensure that this facility is built, or is this the way private health care homes are treated? Mr. Praznik: Those types of comments may seem to add to public debate, but I do not think they do. I mean, I could get up and talk about the $20,000 that CUPE gave the New Democrats. Does that influence their policy or the positions that they take in the House?

The fact of the matter is this government is very much committed to ensuring that the capital infrastructure in our health care system is efficient and adequate, and I would suggest that she wait until Friday for more detail in the budget. She may be somewhat surprised. Manitoba Hydro Deregulation Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My question is to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Will the minister confirm that the massive restructuring program that Manitoba Hydro has undergone in the past year is actually a form of being prepared for deregulation, that the restructuring and the merger with Centra Gas is to prepare Manitoba Hydro for a deregulated environment? Hon.

David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): All changes that are recommended or take place at Manitoba Hydro are to protect and enhance its interests in the Manitoba community and in the international marketplace where they export sufficient service, that 25 percent of the revenues come from the United States, which is used to keep the prices down for the benefit of all Manitoba consumers. *

(1410) Ms. Mihychuk: Will the minister agree that the changes to The Manitoba Hydro Act coming forward, that Manitoba Hydro will be able to compete aggressively in the new energy marketplace as described, as quoted by president of Hydro, and that this new energy marketplace is actually deregulation? Mr. Newman: The challenge that Manitoba Hydro faces is how to maintain and indeed increase its marketing ability in the United States. It is deregulation in the United States on a federal basis that is impacting very significantly on the willingness of the United States to allow us to enter into their marketplace.

If we do not make adjustments to make that possible, we are interfering with the ability to keep rates down in the province of Manitoba for the benefit of Manitobans. Privatization Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My final supplementary to the same minister: Will the minister now confirm that what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said

March 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 369 last Friday, that Hydro was safe as long as it is in a totally regulated environment, means that this new deregulated environment coming very shortly will allow the Premier and this government to sell Manitoba Hydro and break their promise? Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): The people of the province of Manitoba, through this government, own Manitoba Hydro.

That fact remains unchanged, and there is no contemplation that that will change in any proposed reforms to the legislation sought by Manitoba Hydro in order to enhance their ability to be successful in the province of Manitoba. Elmwood Cemetery Perpetual Care Fund Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I would like to, first of all, congratulate him on his ascension to this appointment. The minister attended a cabinet meeting this morning in which the Elmwood Cemetery situation was to be discussed.

The minister has agreed that the problem could have been alleviated by his government over the last nine years and that future such problems could be avoided by changing the regulations to increase the percentage of monies a cemetery owner must collect for perpetual care needs from the current 30 percent to 35 percent figures to a higher amount. Does his cabinet agree with him that this is a viable way of preventing similar problems in the future with other cemeteries? Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the honourable member for the opportunity to tell my colleagues this afternoon the fact that we have spent a considerable amount of time, not in cabinet but in my office and with some of my colleagues in the House, discussing the difficulties of the Elmwood Cemetery.

This is a matter of paramount importance to us, and I would point out to the honourable member that our government has donated a significant amount of money to assist in the exhumation of bodies to put them in a safe position so that they will not be washed down the river with the anticipated flooding that we will have this year and the giving way of the riverbank. I would also add to my honourable colleague that I am surprised at his knowledge of our agenda in cabinet this morning, and I would suggest with the greatest of respect that that would not pass a severe test of probity in this House.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, my supplementary to the same minister is this: Is the minister satisfied that the current perpetual care funds have been properly handled over the years by the current owner? Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I am told at the present time that there is approximately $1 million on deposit in the perpetual care fund for the Elmwood Cemetery, which has been donated by the families of the deceased who are interred in the cemetery.

By legislation, this fund is monitored by the Court of Queen's Bench, and I believe a biannual report is made to the Court of Queen's Bench to account for the funds that are placed there. At the present time I feel very secure that these funds are in place, they are properly invested and they are producing the highest level of income which is allowed by law.

The difficulty, of course, which I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of, with current interest and rising costs in the cemetery, the owner of the cemetery is not able to meet current maintenance needs for the cemetery, but I can assure my honourable colleague that the funds are intact and that we are confident with the controls that are in place. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Point of Order Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): On a point of order, the honourable Minister of Education and Training would like to table a document, and I would ask for leave to revert to tabling of documents. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Education have leave to revert to tabling of documents? [agreed]

370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to table the Annual Report for the year ending June 30, 1996, for the Public Schools Finance Board. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY WRITTEN QUESTIONS Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood) - Questions regarding Cabinet Ministers and Spouses travel between 1990 and 1994. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Tweed) and the amendment proposed by the honourable Leader of the official opposition, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Rural Development, who has 3 7 minutes remaining. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I am pleased to be able to continue my remarks as they relate to the throne speech, or better still to verify and reinforce the positive comments about the state of our economy and to look at the very positive prospects for the future of this province.

I think I stopped yesterday as a result of the closing of the House with remarks about the tone of the speeches that were coming from the other side of the House and the fact that we have not heard from the opposition any positive alternatives to the programs and the policies that our government has put forward. All we hear is a lot of negativism and a lot of doom and gloom about their view of the province and the economy. This is reflected in the way that their questions come to us and in the way indeed questions came today about the transfer payments to our municipalities.

I was pleased this morning to be able to announce to municipalities that rural municipalities across this province are going to be sharing in the increased prosperity of our province by some $4.4 million to the municipalities outside the city of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, all of this relates to the fact that indeed our economy is performing well, that we have a strong economy in this province. Businesses in this province are doing well, generating wealth not only for the province but indeed for the municipalities across this province.

I think it is going to be welcome news to the municipalities, because this is revenue that was not anticipated by them. They did not budget for this revenue, and as they get into the budget period, this allows them some flexibility to provide better services to the constituents that they represent and to perhaps keep the tax increases down to a minimum in their municipalities.

For the past eight and a half years, this government has spent its time working very diligently to build a foundation, a foundation that can sustain the pressures of change and allow Manitobans to create both a social and an economic climate that enhances and improves the lives of Manitobans throughout. But let us make no mistake, this credit does not belong to us alone. It belongs to Manitobans who continue to adapt to the change and continue to move forward with pride and with confidence. *

(1420) Madam Speaker, I see that every day as I work with Ma nitobans through the Department of Rural Development. We see that strong people in this province are building and are continuing to build a stronger economy for their children and for themselves. We have been working with Manitobans to indeed continue that effort of building upon those strong foundations that have been put in place over the past eight and a half years.

Our government and my department act as a catalyst by working with Manitobans by creating a framework of a foundation that they can build upon, but the credit goes to our citizens for responding to the challenges that we put before them and for taking up the opportunities that have been placed before them. The winds of change have not been kind to Manitobans in the past.

March 12, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 371 For close to a century our farmers have enjoyed the benefit of the Crow. In the last year or so, we have seen the federal government remove the benefits, and that has taken some $750 millior" out of the rural economy of western Canada on an annual basis. But have Manitobans stopped? No. Indeed, they have continued to build upon their strengths, to look at their strengths and to capitalize on the opportunities like never before.

If we look around us, we can see how the rural economy is continuing to grow by the value-added industries that we are seeing in the rural part of our province. I can point to some examples like the strawboard plant which is going to be built in Elie, $142 million of investment that will create hundreds of jobs in that community. In the last year we have been able to announce some $750-million worth of new economic activity in our province, economic activity that is there because of the foundation that has been set in place by this government.

We look at expansions in this province, expansions to McCain and the Nestle-Simplot potato processing operations that have resulted in significant increased potato production in this province. If you look at where we rate in potato production across this country, we have now surpassed New Brunswick and will indeed surpass Prince Edward Island if the industry continues to grow in the way that it has. It is not any small potatoes as was referenced by some members in this House some time ago. These are just a few examples of what is happening in the rural part of our province.

When we make the announce ment of $4.4 million of increased revenue going back to our municipalities, the credit has to go to those individual companies which have put their efforts into expanding their processing, expanding their businesses, creating wealth and creating activity in our province. Madam Speaker, I think that our progress has been well documented and has been talked about not just in Manitoba but across this country.

If you meet with ministers in other jurisdictions, they look at Manitoba as a place which is leading the way in many ways in terms of building an economy that is strong, building a foundation for the residents of the province to be able to access social services, economic programs which are of benefit to the entire province.

When you look at what the Conference Board of Canada says about our province, it is indeed gratifying to note that in the manufacturing sector they are predicting growth again in this next year of 5. 7 percent, and that is being preceded by growth of some 8.6 percent this year and over 8 percent in the previous year. So the economy is growing. The economy is indeed very buoyant and very positive in our province. The Conference Board of Canada also goes on to say that manufacturers will invest more than $540 million in Manitoba over the coming year, which is five times as high as investment elsewhere in Canada.

This equates to something like 15,000 new jobs for Manitobans, and that growth is significant and evident right through the entire province. I heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) talk about McJobs. Well, Madam Speaker, I do not understand that kind of approach, because whether it is jobs in the telecommunications industry or whether it is jobs in the manufacturing sector or the value-added sector, every job is important to Manitobans. Regardless of what part of the economy Manitobans work in, they are creating wealth for themselves, for their families and for this province.

If we want to talk about McJobs, all we have to look at is the old Jobs Fund that the NDP used to tout in this province. They spent some $380 million over a period of time to create jobs that were really the McJobs. They were the jobs that did not last; they have disappeared long ago and the money has gone with those jobs. But the jobs that we are creating are sustainable jobs. They are here for the future. They are here for the long term. They are here for not only our generation but for generations that will come behind us.

I find it appalling that members opposite would criticize jobs that Manitobans find meaningful, that Manitobans find that they need, that Manitobans indeed are eager to take up. We are getting into a situation in some of our industries, as a matter of fact, where we are getting into a full employment situation. As a matter of fact, I just caught a bit of news the other day where one of the reporters indicated that Manitoba was one of the best provinces in Canada to find work for young people. So all of those indicators are up. They are all positive. What do we hear from the opposition?

We hear negativism on every front whether it is in education or whether it is in health.

372 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 Madam Speaker, I have to talk a little bit about the area of education because I talked to people right across this province and, indeed, we met with some advisory councils not that long ago who talked to me about what is happening in their school divisions. They said to me that as parent councils they believed in the direction that the province is taking. They understand the direction this province is going with regard to education. They believe in standards.

They want their children to graduate from our high schools and from our universities with an ability to compete with their peers from wherever that may be. I think we need to listen to what parent councils are telling us, and we need to ensure that indeed our children are able to capitalize on those opportunities which will give them an ability to compete with graduates from our schools and from our universities in an exemplary way.

"Health care" seems to be a phrase that is catching everywhere today, and when I speak to people in my constituency, of course, the community of Shoal Lake is somewhat concerned about the fact that they need a health care facility. But they understand only too well that we have to be very careful as to how we spend our health care dollars, so that we get the maximum benefit out of those scarce dollars that we use for health care.

Yes, indeed, their facility is getting old and their facility needs to be replaced but, as the regional health boards take their responsibilities up, they will indeed be communicating with that community to ensure that whatever kind of facility is going to be built in that community, that facility will be able to meet the needs of the population of that area in the best way possible.

So I support that community, and indeed I have met with them on many occasions to talk about their needs, to talk about what type of facility will someday be constructed in that community and that indeed they are eager to be involved in not only the fundraising but in participating in identifying the kind of facility that they will eventually have in that community. Madan1 Speaker, as I work with municipalities across this province I find a fair degree of optimism from our municipalities about the direction that this province is going.

It is quite a contrast to what we had some eight years ago when municipalities were very skeptical about the direction that our province was going in. Today our municipalities are participating fully in the economy of our province. They are taking a leadership role in setting goals and setting objectives for their municipalities. They are taking a leading role in working with the communities in terms of identifying the strengths of those communities and building on those strengths. *

(1430) We are seeing quite a change in rural Manitoba. We are seeing that indeed younger people are starting to move back to communities and they are taking up jobs in these communities and they are creating jobs. They are setting up businesses. Indeed they are creating lives for themselves in rural communities across this province, and that is quite a contrast from what it used to be some eight or 10 years ago. Madam Speaker. I am proud of the achievements we have made with regard to rural Manitoba and Manitoba as a whole.

I think that Manitoba now is poised to become a leader in this country in terms of many industries, whether it is in the value-added industries or whether it is in the diversified agricultural products or whether it is in the high-tech industries. We have an ability now to become a leader and to lead the way in the economic prosperity of this country, and I think that is being noted by other jurisdictions. We found that in the whole area of value-added-I have just talked to people in Ontario.

Ontario has been in the whole area of value-added for a long time, but they are looking at Manitoba as doing something very unique and something very different in that we are now engaging people from communities to come forward with their dollars and to partner with other jurisdictions, with other entities and also with companies in creating wealth for their communities by putting in value-added processing right where it should be, right where the products are produced.

Whether it is a strawboard plant in Elie or a strawboard plant in Killarney or a hay compress plant in Dauphin, Manitoba, or wherever that might be, these are all industries which are adding value to the products that are produced right in our rural communities, and those products are finding their way into export markets. They are not products that are used necessarily in their totality in our province and in our country. They

March I2, I997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 373 are finding their way into the markets in Japan, into the United States, into parts of Europe, into Mexico and all around the globe. I think we are now seeing that Manitobans are understanding the value of producing for the export market and indeed everybody is getting onboard. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Last year we held a forum in Brandon called Rural Fo rum 96 at which we had some 10,000 people walk through the doors.

It was a splendid event in that it was a celebration of the success stories that we have in the rural part of our province, but it allowed also for an exchange of ideas and an exchange of information about how small businesses are prospering in our province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this year, as we prepare for Forum 97, we are experiencing a tremendous amount of interest not only from exhibitors but from individuals who are seeking ideas, are seeking opportunities and are looking at the prospects of partnering with rural Manitobans to build our communities and to build our economy.

I think Rural Forum 97, which is going to be held in May of this year, is going to be a showcase of the kinds of business opportunities that we have in our province, the future of this province and what it holds for prospective businesses, and also the success stories that we have been building for the last eight years. Mr. Deputy Speaker, no matter which part of the province you go, whether it is into Swan River or Neepawa, we find that the activity is indeed encouraging. In Neepawa alone, we saw something like $I2 million of new building permits issued in this last year.

Minnedosa has II new businesses established in the community in one year and no matter where it goes-my own community, which has a population of 2,000 or thereabouts, has experienced about $2 million of building permits in this last year. Now we have not seen that happen so much in the past; indeed, this is very encouraging because what it means is that jobs are being created in those communities, that wealth is being generated in those communities.

There is economic activity in those communities, and all of this is allowing those communities to sustain their health care systems in their communities, their education systems in their communities, and the social services that they so badly need in those communities. It is service being delivered closer to home as a result of renewed economic activity in these areas. I would like to talk a little bit about our youth, because rural youth have had a special place in my heart for a long time.

Since I came to this department, we have tried to work very hard to ensure that rural youth would find the rural landscape, if you like, as one that would be inviting to them to want to work in and to want to make their living at. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we introduced a program to rural Manitoba called Junior Achievement, and this program has taken off incredibly. At one time it functioned in the city of Winnipeg alone.

Now we have been able to expand it to the rural part of our province, and Chambers of Commerce, our Junior Achievement offices, our schools, the teachers in our schools have become very involved in this program. Last year at the Rural Forum we had something like 400 young people who participated in the Junior Achievement program participate in the Rural Forum. We are looking at the same kind of process this year, and I am told that the interest is extremely high and that we are going to have a fairly significant participation of rural youth at our forum this year.

It is going to be a two-day program where youth can get together and talk about how to become young entrepreneurs, how they can take advantage of programs to build their communities, and how they can become involved in the fabric of their community. I think that this is so important to ensure that rural youth have a reason to want to come back to live in our rural communities and to stay in those rural communities. Another program which I think is worth mentioning is our Green Team program, and I will never forget the reaction when I introduced that program a number of years ago.

It was not very positive, I can tell you that. Members of the opposition kind of scoffed at the program. But today, if you look at that program, it has become one of the more popular programs for youth across this provinc e, and indeed other jurisdictions are looking at Manitoba and the Green Team program and what it means to our province and to our youth. If you look at it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have now expanded

374 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 that program into the urban side of our province as well. I think what it is providing is an ability for our youth to become involved in good work experience in their communities, allow them to save money for their educa tion, and allow them to live closer to home during the summer months. I think it is a program that is worthwhile not only for our small rural communities but for every community in this province. I note that the member for Dauphin (Mr.

Struthers) is making a comment about it, but I have to tell him that his community alone or his communities of Dauphin and Grandv iew and Gilbert Plains have been very active in taking up the programs with regard to youth programs in our province, and I encourage that. I hope that he is positive in the way he approa ches the program and the way it is opera ting. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I look at the opposition, and I sometimes wonder whether they live in the same province we do because they do not seem to look at the positive aspects of what is happening in this province in any way at all.

All we find is nega tivism; all we find is doom and gloom. That is not what we hear out in our communities. As a matter of fa ct, we hear a lot of positive compliments in our communities about what is ha ppening in this province. I guess we need to ask our opposition members to real ly get on board and to get on program and to understand that there are a lot of good things happening in this province and indeed Manitobans are very positive about what this province is doing and the direction that it is going in and that there is not a lot of doom and gloom about the future of this province.

We have balanced the budget. We have created a surplus. We have gotten a hold of the finances of this province. That is an important first step in a strong province. We know the kind of att itude that we had in this province before under the NDP when we had a huge debt and deficits that were running out of control. Today all of that has been brought back into control. We have now a situation where we can begin to repay that enormous debt that has been built up, large ly by the opposition. It has taken some time to arrest that, but we have arrested it.

We will continue to balance the books of this province, and we will continue to build on that founda tion that we have esta blished over the past eight years. * (1 440) We still hear chatter from across the way about what our deficit used to be and what your deficit is. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the reality is we had the second highest taxes in this province of any province in Canada when we took office. The second highest level of taxat ion of any province in Ca nada. Today we are down in the lower part ofthe-in the lower third, if you like, of provinces across this country in terms of our taxes.

We have frozen taxes for eight straight years, nine years now, as a matter of fa ct, and we will continue that approach because that is a prudent approa ch. That is the way that we will build the strong economy. That is the way we will continue to sustain those important program s, whether they are in Health, whether they are in Education or Family Services, and we will continue to improve them. I hear the opposition saying, well, you are cutting back on health, you are cutting back on education.

If you look at the amount of money that is spent on health on a per capita basis, we rank as one of the higher spending provinces in terms of what we spend on a per capita basis for our health care system. Yes, and you can look at anywhere else in this country. You need only to look at the west, into Saskatchewan, and see what is happening in Saskatchewan with regard to health care. Mr. Deputy Speaker, 52 hospitals have closed in rural Saskat chewan. That is incredible. I have fa milies who live in Saskatchewan, and if you compare the economy of Saskatchewan to Manitoba, we are doing fa r better here in Manitoba.

I think the opposition would agree with me in that respect, to say the least. Agriculture is still the foundation of rural Manitoba. Agriculture is still the activity that sustains rural Manitoba and contributes significantly to our economy. Farmers in rural Manitoba have undergone some tremendous chang es. Today we need to encourage the fa rming community to continue to diversify its ac tivities. That is why we entered into a phase where we want to increase our exports by the year 2000 by a billion dolla rs so that indeed it will give fa rmers a goal to reach for in terms of their diversification and in

March 12, 1997 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 375 terms of the products that they produce in rural Manitoba. That is why we have entered into an emphasis on value-added products from the primary products that we produce, whether it is in ag riculture or in forestry, whether it is in tourism. We know the value of putting value to our products to export because that money stays right here in our communities. When we talk about agr iculture, I know that members opposite were a little concerned about our position that we took on a dual-marketing system on hogs. I think the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) would now probably reflect on her position in that regard because we are seeing the hog industry in this province is expanding tremendously. We are seeing hog barns built in parts of this province where we never had them bef ore. As a matter of fa ct, the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) understands the value of that because he has seen the expa nsion of the hog industry in his own backyard and in his community. We see that all around the province and all that is doing is creating jobs and is creating wealth and diversity in our rural economy.

Livestock production is still, to us, a very important aspect of agri culture. Grain production is such that it is important to our province but, because of our position geograp hically, we find ourselves at a disa dvantage when it comes to shipping our products in raw form out of this province and so, therefore, we have to add value to it. We have to find ways to increase the value of that product so that the finished product that goes out of here goes out in a form which returns a significant amount to our province, our economy, and to the fam ilies that work in these areas .

I will continue to promote value-added industry in every aspect that I can, because I believe that is the only way that our rural economy is going to survive in the future. That is why we have put together a program for the Food Development Centre which encourages far ms, encourages small businesses to bring their products to the development centre to see whether or not there is a potential to commercialize these products. To be honest with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it does not just refer to agri Manitoba, but I was in Lynn Lake a short time ago, and I met with their economic development people and their council.

They told me that there is a potential in Lynn Lake to process some of the natural products that are grown in that community into a finished product that there is a high demand for in export markets, and that is in the blueberry and the lingonberry marke t. This year we will be sending our people from the food lab up to Lynn Lake to work with the Lynn Lake community to see whether or not there is a commercial ization prospect for some of the natural berries that are grown in that part of the world. The community seems to be quite excited about it.

I am hoping that indeed the positive results will occur as a result of that because I know that for the blueberry market, as exa mple, there is indeed a niche market that can be filled by some of our people from the North. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think there is a lot of excitement out there, and what we have to do is support our communities and our entrepreneurs with programs that make some sense. That is why we have a Grow Bonds program which today is genera ting a significant amount of capital investment in our province.

Over $24 milli on, I believe, in total capital investment has resulted in our province as a result of the Grow Bond program . This is a program where our investors come from our communities, and, instead of investing their money in banks in the east, they are investing their dollars in our communities. We are there to support them. Yes, we are there with a guara ntee that should a business fa il we will be there. It is venture capital, and we will have fa ilures from time to time. We have seen some of them in the past, and we are there to ensure that the investors' money is protected.

Our REDI program is one which I believe has added a significant amount to the economy of our province. Contributions of some $27.1 million have helped to create more than I ,600 full -time jobs in our province and over 3,800 part -time positions. Most of those jobs are in our youth area. So REDI has contributed a significant amount to starting small, new businesses that may add one or two positions into a community, but one or two positions in a small, rural community are very significant in terms of the spin-off benefits that occur to that community.

376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12, 1997 Mr. Deputy Speaker, the programs that we have are programs that build on part nerships. Just in this past year we had announced the Community Works Loan Program, again a program that builds on partner ships. This program puts money directly into the hands of communities, and then communities by mat ching those funds can then begin the process of lending that money out to prospective small businesses that want to expand or to new businesses that they may need in that community. We find that communities are taking this up.

I want to say that the credit union system of our province has been a very active par ticipant in this program and has contributed significant dolla rs to the program on behalf of their communities. The small community of Grandview was one of the first communities to enter into the Community Works Loan Program, and we made the an nouncement there. I was pleased that the credit union of that small community came up with the total share that the community was supposed to put in.

The community did not have to put in an extra penny, because the credit union in that community came up with the entire share for that community. I think this is commenda ble. I think we need more community parti cipation like that through our province. *

(1450) Just the other day, last Friday, as a matter of fa ct, I was in Birtle and we made the announcement on the Community Works Loan Program there. The credit union and the co-op both came together and contributed, I believe, about $7,000 in total to that program, so it is not just the municipalities that are contributing or organiza tions. We find financial institutions are giving their support to this program and are finding that the grassroots approach to building an economy in a local community is the way to go.

We are finding that women who have tradi tionally had difficulty accessing capital in small communities are coming forward and are taking advantage of this program as a part nership program and are building small businesses, home-based businesses, businesses that make sense, have meaning and have services that are required in those communities. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when you look at all of those things that are happening across our province, I think there is a reason for all of us to be optimistic, for all of us to go out and to keep encouraging our communities to do just that, to continue to build on their strengths, to make sure that they understand what their strengths are, to take advantage of the potential markets that are out there, and there are many markets out there.

As a matter of fa ct, one of the focuses of the Rural Forum is going to be trying to encourage small businesses that have export potential to take advantage of the export markets that are available for them. My colle ague the Minister of lndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) has just returned from some very exciting potential opportunities that exist around the globe.

Indeed, I think that is a good thing for someone like our Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism to be out there marketing what this province has to offer to the world because indeed we know that this province has a tremendous amount to offer to the world. I was very privileged to be able to take advantage of a trip to Ukraine in November, and Manitoba has a significant Ukrainian population. As a result, there are some natural linkages that we should be able to establish between ourselves and the new economy of Ukraine.

However, if we look at the track record, we have had very little economic activity between Ukraine and Canada or Ukraine and Manitoba, and so we want to enhance that. We want to ensure that businesses in this province have every possible opportunity to take advantage of the markets that exist in the new, emerging economy of Ukraine. Indeed, this year we are par ticipating in a project called CUBI, and I would like to just explain for a minute what this project is about.

It has to do with the Canadian- Ukrainian Business Initiative, which involves three prairie provinces and Ukraine, and in this project we will, indeed, be merging our businesses with businesses in Ukraine. Our responsibility is the construction sector.

In June of this year, we will be hosting a construction sector forum where we will be inviting businesses and agenc ies from Ukraine to Canada to join businesses in Canada from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in a forum where we can showcase Canadian products, Manitoba products, Saskatchewan and Alberta products, where we can merge businesses, form strate gic allia nces to build the

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 377 economy of Ukraine and to develop those relati onships that need to be developed. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I certainly look forward to that opportunity later this year. I understand that my time is running out very quickly, and I would like to simply say that the throne speech that was so eloquently read by His Honour is one that we look forward to implementing in this province.

Manitobans, I think, are eager to see this province grow and to prosper, and indeed I look forward to the opportunities that exist for Manitoba ns, for our economy, and for the population of this province. I look forward to working with all Manitobans to ensure that this province becomes a stronger place for our generation and for generations in the future. Thank you very much. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to rise to add my comments to the government's latest throne speech of the Third Session of the Thirty-sixth Legisla ture which the government introduced on March 3.

I must admit though there is not very much in this throne speech that I find that causes us to see that there is any progress or any change in the direction that this government has been going over the last number of years. In fa ct, some have said that this parti cula r throne speech is a very cynical document and that it tries to restore some public confidence with respect to how the First Nations people have been treated in this province.

Before I get to my discussion about the document itself, I want to talk a bit about an issue that is I am sure on the minds of most members of this Chamber and that is dealing with the potential flooding problem that may be fac ing us very shortly, in fa ct, in just a number of weeks. I had the opportunity during the time that we were out of session between the end of November and when we resumed the new session on March 3, had the ability and the opportunity to travel throughout Manitoba with many of my colleagu es.

During that time, we have had to talk with people about a variety of issues, whether it be their health care concerns or their education concerns that they have in the various communities or the economic development concerns that they have, changes they would like to see and improvements they would like to make to allow their communities to grow to encourage their young people, particularly in the rural areas, to remain within the rural communities. I have had the opportunity to go to Rosenort, Morris, Carman, Morden and Winkler.

I have been to The Pas, been to Dauphin, been to many communities and talked with residents and officials in those various communities, and I appreciated the opportunity to accompany my caucus colle agues to those communities. One of the things that I noticed that there is a fa ir amount of snowfal l, as I am sure all members are aware, throughout the province, although we seemed to have more in the south than there was in the northern parts of the province at the current time that I had the opportunity to travel to the North.

One of the concerns I have-and I have received calls on this from members of my own constituency-and I am not sure if it is an issue that the government is looking at through the Natural Resources department or not, but I am going to try and be constructive. I know the Natural Resources minister (Mr. Cummings) is listening very closely here to what is being said and that my collea gue for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) is advising the Minister of Natural Resources on his concerns with respect to flooding as well.

One of the things that I do not know if it is a possibility, but I am going to raise this with the government as a concern that has been raised with me, and I have had the opportunity to do a little bit of thinking but I need to do some more research on as well, is what happens if we have those one-in-300-year spring melts? We have a floodway that is set up to handle only X amount of cubic feet per hour water flow. What happens to the excess water that is going to come through?

Is that water going to be continued to be diverted through the Winnipeg floodway system saving the interior of the city of Winnipeg from any flooding damage? If that is the case, what is going to happen to the communities of Tran scona and Springfield should those flood water levels rise to the top of the floodway system that is in place, and will those communities be sacrificed to preserve the interior of the city of Winnipeg? That is a concern that I have because I happen to represent the community of Trans cona, and we are quite worried about the potential for that floodway to

378 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 97 overflow its banks into both Transcona and Springfield. Of course, as we all know, there is housing that is in very close proximity to the floodway system in east Transcona, and I do not want to see any of those properties sacri ficed so that others will be saved in the process. I want to make sure that there is adequate prepara tion and planning tak ing place to make sure that hopefully no one will be detrimental ly impacted by the flooding. I draw this to the atte ntion of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings) because we are not that fa r away from the spring melt.

We hope and pray that the melt will be slow and that the waters will be able to move away in a saf e fa sliion, but should that not occur, I hope that the government, through the Natural Resources department, is ta king every precau tion to make sure that ice dams, should they occur on the floodway or the river systems, are dealt with in the appropriate, timely fas hion and that we will not have to see any flooding of the properties that are supposed to be protected by both the floodway and the rivers. * (1 500) Also I wan t to draw to the atte ntion of the government that, because the budget is due to come down here on this Friday that flooding in south Tra nscona that my colleague the member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) represents, the residents of south Transcona have also called me to raise their concerns with me, their fears about what the flooding will mean to them in their communities, as we know that in the last couple of summers they have experienced some severe flooding during the summer months that has not been add ressed totally yet.

It is my understanding that the City of Winnipeg has now committed some $1. 7 million to building a water retention pond and a system that will hopefully allev iate the flooding problem in the south Tra nscona area, which also takes in water from the Rural Municipal ity of Springfield. But also my understanding is that this project cannot go ahead, and I am not going to debate the merits of the project here, but I am going to talk about the funding that is necessary. It is my understanding that the City of Winnipeg is now waiting for the province to ante up its money for this project before it can go ahead.

It is I believe another $1. 7 mill ion to my understan ding, so the total project cost is about $3.5 million. Now, that may not save the community this spring should we have severe flooding occur, but I hope that the government when they bring their budget down on Friday, will have considerati on in there for the project to help the people tha t are living in the south Tra nscona area. They have suffered long enough with the severe flooding problems, and I think it is only appropria te that that problem be once and for all solved.

It will save mill ions in the insurance costs both for the homeowners there that have to pay the premiums, and I know the member opposite- An Honourable Member: He wants to underwrite. Mr. Reid: He wants to underwrite as an insurance broker. An Honourable Member: He wants to make money off us poor people. Mr.

Reid: Well, if the flooding occurs, you are going to be getting calls from the residents in the area, if you happen to carry those policies for them, and you will have to deal with the outrage that they will have once agai n as they had in past years because of the severity of the flooding and the detrimental impact that has happened to the fam ilies. An Honourable Member: I am not in the insurance business. Mr. Reid: We did not specify you specifically. There are others that are associated with your caucus. In fa ct I believe your former member was here in the loge just this week.

One of the other things I want to talk about and I want to deal with, an issue that has been raised here in the Chamber by my colleague the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), is dealing with the education funding. In the community ofTran scona I have had the opportunity to talk to trustees who had their meeting just last night with respect to the changes that we are going to see on the taxa tion level and the progra mming and the staffing levels to the Transcona -Springfield School Division.

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 379 Now, the minister may already be aware of the decision that has been made. Hopefully, her department has already been briefed on that. But there is a problem, and there seems to be a discrepancy here. The Provincial Auditor is calling for the school division to take approxima tely 3 percent of their revenues and put it into a reserve fund for any situation that may occur, whether the roof of a school caves in, and God forbid that should ever happen, or a boiler blows up in one of the schools or becomes unserviceable - An Honourable Member: Or flooded. Mr.

Reid: -or they become flooded, as my colleague points out. There needs to be some funding in place. Unfortunate ly the school board has once again had to dip into the reserves that the auditor for the division says would be an appropriate level to have in the reserve fund. They have taken this to maintain the progra mming and to make sure that there is adequate staffing levels for our students in our schools.

They have restored a few of the paraprof essionals which they unfortuna tely had to cut a few years ago when the government had announced their serious reduction in education funding to that particular division, as they did to all other school divisions. One of the things that I am going to be looking for when the budget is announced and the government releases its capital spending program for the Department of Educa tion is funding that will allow for the Transcona Collegiate institute to be rebuilt. It is my understanding that there are serious structural problems with the school.

It is also in need of some serious mai ntenance work to be done in that partic'Ular fac ility, and itt is my understanding that it is in the ordeT of some $3 millron worth of work that needs to be done to restore that schooL Now I am not saying that it is currently in an unsafe condition, but it is my understanding that, if it is allowed to go on much longer, it will deteriorate to an unsafe condition. I hope and I will be looking for that parti cular announcement when the budget is announced la ter this week and whether or not that funding is going to be alloca ted through the capital program .

The Public Schools Finance Boa rd, I believe, has that money and an nounces it for improvements or rebuilding of schools. So I will be looking for that when the budget is announced. It is my understanding, too, that the government, as they have said in their throne speech here, has an apprenticeship task force that has been tra velling the province, and it is my understanding that it is going to be reporting back to the government sometime this spring.

We look forward to that report, and we hope the minister will table it shortly after she receives it to allow members of this side of the House to see what the recommendations and what the government's plan will be to improving the appren ticeship or the apprenticeable trades in the province of Manitoba.

That is one of the things that has been seriously lacking in the province in the number of trades when we compare ourselves to other jurisdictions, in particular, to European jurisdictions, where they have many hundreds of apprenticeable trades that encourage young people to come out of the school system and even before they complete the school system to choose a par ticular career path and allows this training to occur. One of the things that I would like to see, and I hope that the minister will also address it, is the certifica tion of some of the trades in the province that are not currently certified.

I think, in par ticula r, the plumbing and pipe fitting industry needs to have a look at whether or not they should be certified. From my research, it would be my position that this warrants serious considera tion with respect to certification to make sure that those who are the residents in our communities are confident and comfortab le that the people who are coming into our homes and into our businesses are certified tra despeople and fully capab le, qualified and trained to perform that par ticular tra de's work. I encourage the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Mcintosh), who is responsible for Education and Training, to look at certification of the trades and to expand the appren ticeable trades in the province and to incorporate or to encourage the young people not only to stay and complete high school. but to become involved. should they not choose to go on to university, in the appre nticeable trades area. I think it would serve our communities well to make sure that our young people have the highest skill level or qualifica tion to allow them to seek out gainful employment.

380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 97 I listened to the answers that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) had here today with respect to questions that my colleague the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) had asked, that the government had seriously understated the funding.

I listened when the government announced with their last budget that they were going to have I think a $22- million surplus this year, and now we find out the Minister of Finance has come out with his comments through his press release and through his third quarter report, he is bragging now that that has over doubled and it is going up to $56 million in surplus. Well, we can read budget documents; we can read the financial documents that come out, and our numbers show that even that $56 million number is seriously low.

It is going to be significantly higher than that and that the government has significant surpluses available to them. In fact, well over $10 0 million will be your surplus for the current fiscal year, which is due to expire at the end of March. With this, one has to ask, and people of my community are asking me, if the government has this type of surplus, why are they freezing education at its current level or cutting it back because they have not taken into account the cost-of-living impacts on the Education department? Why are they taking that step with education?

Why are they disadvantaging our children if we have over a hundred million dollars in the surplus now? It is a question that I cannot answer. I guess the government will have to answer that on budget day, why they have not put the money into those programs. Why are they cutting back or seriously shortchanging the health care system? One has to wonder, just taking a look at the event that occurred in the city of Winnipeg here yesterday when the truck ran into that business establishment on Marion, one block away from the St.

Boniface General Hospital, why were the people transported to the Misericordia Hospital and to Seven Oaks Hospital for treatment when they were only a block away from St. Boniface Hospital? Now, was that hospital filled to capacity? I am hearing information coming to me from people in the Gimli area, for example, that they wanted to bring an individual who had a serious heart condition, an ambulatory patient, to St. Boniface Hospital, any hospital in the city of Winnipeg that would take him, to provide the care necessary and the facilities. St.

Boniface, reluctantly, after a period of time, accepted that particular individual for care. Now I am unaware whether that individual survived or not. That is something we will have to do further research on. * (1510 ) If there is a surplus that you have and it is over a hundred million dollars, and we have people who cannot get into hospitals in emergency cases, the closest hospital which was St. Boniface in particular to the truck accident, one has to ask the question, what are you doing with the money? Are you squirrelling this money away for the next provincial election?

You are going to announce your tax breaks in 19 98, that has been much talked about so you are putting this money into a slush fund along with the Lotteries funds and the remaining proceeds of the MTS sale. That is what appears right now. One of the other areas that I noticed was conspicuous by its absence was any mention in the throne speech document with respect to Workplace Safety and Health changes that are so desperately needed.

Now you may recall that in the last session of this Legislature I had the opportunity to ask the Minister of Labour questions pertaining to safety for working people and in particular for the individuals working in construction or in mmmg. We had a near-tragic event where an individual was trapped in an excavation cave-in. We note that there is no follow-up within Workplace Safety and Health for individuals that are involved, owners of companies that are involved and that fold up their tents and start up their operations under a new name the next day.

One of the other areas that causes me concern is that there are a number of miners that have been killed in this province, and that people in the northern communities, and particularly in Flin Flon and Thompson where most of the mining operations are in that area, are quite incensed that the maximum fine on a first offence is only $15 ,000. For a second or subsequent offence, it is $30,000. So that is the price that is put on a life in this province if you are killed in a workplace accident, as the miners have been in the province of Manitoba.

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 381 One of the things I would like to see and we are proposing, and we will be bringing forward legisla tion to this eff ect, is to increase the fine level to half a million dollars. Now that is not a perf ect solution to the problem that is out there. We need to have greater workplace inspections take place, and you cannot do that by reducing the number of field inspectors that you have in Workplace Saf ety and Health. An Honourable Member: That is what we are doing. Mr. Reid: The minister says that there have been no reductions.

I mean we have the names of the people; we have the positions; we know the numbers have been reduced. I mean he is not going to fool us and say that the numbers are constant. He says the numbers of hours of inspections are constant . Well, if that is the case, then you are paying people overtime which does not appear to be showing up in your budget line, so I find it hard to believe that you are having more or increased numbers of hours of inspections.

One of the other problems with Workplace Saf ety and Hea lth that has caused me concern, and I rela te back specifically to the Power Vac incident where the company was involved where that young man was very seriously burned, will never be the same. He will never lead a normal life from my understanding of the situation. That young man is still going through reha bilita tion, trying to get some normalcy brought back to his particular lif e, but looking at the injury that he has suffered, he will, in the true sense of the word, as members of this House would know, never be the same as he was bef ore.

I have to ask myself, then, why did the Ministry of Justice, the former Minister of Justice who is now another minister, moved onto another life, not give instructions to her senior Crown atto rneys to ask for the max imum fines, which albeit they were only $15 ,000? But they did not even ask on the offences that the company was charged on, Power Vac, for the maximum fine level.

It is my understanding that on the two counts the company only got half of the maximum fines that could have been levied, so it is very obvious that your Justice department and your department of Workplace Saf ety and Health are not communicating.

If they are, the message is not getting through to the Crown att orneys that are prosecuting these cases, that when you have very serious offences you have to take the maximum steps avai lable to you to make sure that the message is sent loud and clea r, that working people in this province are not to be sacrificed on the altar of profit as appears to be the case with some of the actions of the Justice departm ent in this province, and I refer specifically to the Power Vac incident.

So I hope that, while it is not in the throne speech, the government will look seriously at supporting our bill that we are going to bring forward with respect to improvements to The Workplace Saf ety and Health Act, to also protect the workers that are going to raise issues of safety that come to their atte ntion from time to time, so their employers too cannot take the punitive measure of dismissing or laying off or in other words disposing of their employees that may draw these workplace saf ety and health matters to the att ention of the government.

We want to make sure there is some protection for working people in that regard as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the things that my collea gues have raised in this House when this session started was the matter of privilege. It was a very serious matter that had to be dealt with with respect to trying to restore some confidence to the office of Speaker of this Legisla ture. It is an issue that is still before us, has not gone away and will not go away until members of this House realize that we need to move to an elected Speaker to restore the confidence of the Speaker of this Chamber.

In the last session, the Speaker of the last session took it upon herself to ignore members of this Legisla tive Assembly. I find it very offensive that I was not aff orded the opportunity, after sitting in on many, many hours of public committee hearings on MTS, not as much as my coll eague the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) or other members of this House, including the Deputy Speaker no doubt, that sat in those committee hearings, I was not aff orded the opportunity to raise those questions, those concerns that my constituents came here and presented, raised.

I did not have the opportunity in this Chamber to raise that. I know the member for Riel (Mr. Newman), when he did his throne speech, did not want to talk about his pay

382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 97 level and how the people of Riel compensate him for the job that he does, but I can tell you, I am well compensated. I appreciate the confidence of the people of Transcona, but I have a job to do, and it is my responsibility to raise their concerns in this Chamber. By the Speaker and the government not aff ording me that opportunity, I am unable to do my job, and I take great of fence to either the government or the Speaker refusing to allow me that opportunity to represent my constituents.

I will continue to work for an elected Speaker of this Chamber to make sure that that event never occurs again as long as I am in this Chamber. I do not want to see a repeat of that, and the people- An Honourable Member: Watch any tra vel claims you have too. Mr. Reid: Well, yes, perhaps there are certain comments that have been made that trave l claims that have been released that were only available to one parti cular individual who happens to sit in the Speaker's Chair on a full-time basis perhaps, and it is quite offensive that that would occur if that indeed did occur. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we will leave those matte rs to work themselves out at some other point in the future. Perhaps should the Legisla tive Assembly Mana gement Commission get back together, that matter can be raised at that time, how that parti cula r information was released. I think it is only appropriate that that would be the forum where it would be debated , so I will not go any further on that topic. I only ask, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that either you, and I know you have in the past and will most likely continue to do in the future, recognize that I have a responsibility as do all members of this Legisla ture to represent their constituents and that we should be aff orded every opportunity.

When the people of my community that appeared before the MTS committee and those that were phoning me that were retired in my community wanted to have me take their parti cular question to this Chamber and put it before the government with respect in par ticular to their MTS pensions-because several of them were retired and were quite worried about the ram ifications for their pension when MTS was sold- I was not given that opportunity to raise those questions with respect to the MTS sa le.

I was denied that information [interjection] No, this is after you brought in your amendments to the pension plan during the committee hearings. I am sure if you had been in that committee you would have heard that there were members of the public from many communities concerned about the pension plan. An Honourable Member: Maybe he was too busy preparing member's sta tements. Mr.

Reid: Well, maybe he was busy preparing member's state ments, but also too that the members of my community that are employed in MTS and the pensioners are still quite worried because it is my understanding that the government has reneged on their deal that they had signed with the unions and that there is not going to be an equal part nership on the Ma nitoba Telephone System pension plan.

These people are not going to have an equal role in the say on how those funds or the surplus of the investment of those funds is dealt with, so I think after the government, through the current Minister of Health, tried to tell the public and tried to tell the employees of MTS that they were being fa irly dealt with, the government has essentially reneged on that deal and that employees, from my understanding of what I have been told, will not have an equal representat ion or an equal opportunity to have a say in the decisions impacting the pension and any surpluses that it may ha ve. * (1 520) Now we all heard about how the brokers profited.

In fa ct, the two brokers, Wood Gundy and Dominion Securities, my col league the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has pointed out, made $4.8-million profit, each of them, on the sale after they advised the government to sell off MTS. I do not know, I still cannot figure out, if that does not paint the picture of a conflict of interest, then I miss my guess. I do not know what does then. It is very clear to me that is a conflict of interest, and yet we hear the stories about those brokers quite happy to go around buying their new BMWs and their new Jaguars after MTS was sold and the shares were flipped.

It is very clea r- An Honourable Member: How many shares has Merv got?

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 383 Mr. Reid: Yes, it would be interesting to see when these members stand up in the House whether or not they reference the number of shares they bought for MTS. That will be quite interesting to find out. I challenge the government members. You sti ll have members on the board of MTS and you have access to the shareh olders' list. Table that list in this Legisla tive Assembly to let the members and the public see how many people in this Chamber purchased MTS shares, and who--[interjection] oh, yes, the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.

McAlpine) pointed out that members opposite purchased millions of share s, and I do not doubt that. I am glad he has the honesty to come forward and indica te that he has bought a significant number of shar es. If the government is serious about open policy government and you still have four people on the MTS board there, come out with that shareholders' list and let us see how many Manitobans still own those shares, whether or not they have moved to eastern Canada or New Jersey.

That is most likely where they have ended up for the bulk of the shares, or if the bulk of them have not ended up, they will end up there. One of the other issues that I want to raise with the government here is dealing with jobs. It is my understanding, and I have had the opportunity to sit down and meet with the employees of Bristol and the representati ves of Bristol Aerospace, which has a very significant operation in the city of Winnipeg.

One of the very serious concerns I have with respect to the Bristol plant is the unwillingness of the Deputy Premier, who is also the Minister ofl ndustry, Trade and Tourism, to become involved directly in the events that are going to and are currently underway with respect to the Bristol opera tion. We have many hundreds of jobs, high-paying, high-skilled jobs in that parti cular industry. An Honourable Member: They are all going to Standard Aero. Mr. Reid: The member for Sturgeon Creek says they are going to the Standard Aero.

Well, that would be a serious blow to the city of Winnipeg that, instead of hiring more people to fill Standard Aero's needs, we could not keep Bristol going as well. We would have both companies as thriving operations in the province. I hope there is room for both of them. The part that bothers me is that the Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Downey) in this province does not- An Honourable Member: Stick to railroads. Mr. Reid: I will get to railroads in a minute. The Minister of Industry and Trade does not seem to be playing a proactive role in the impending sale of Bristol.

We want to make sure that these jobs, these high-skilled, high-paid jobs stay in our province. We do not want to see them leave to other jurisdictions, whether it be in Alberta or in the U.S. We want to make sure they stay here. I see a role here, a direct role for the Minister of Industry and Trade to be directly involved and not to go off on a different tangent. An Honourable Member: He is always off on a tangent. Mr. Reid: Well, that is why I am raising it.

That is why I am raising it here, because I want the government to be actively involved, proactive in making sure that that plant stays here and those jobs stay here. Bristol has taken out of this province through the contracts that have been allow ed-and I say Bristol, I mean Rolls Royce, which is over in England-has taken bill ions of dollars out of Canada through the Bristol opera tions, at taxpayers' expense, I might add.

Yet, that particula r company is now aba ndoning its Bristol operations, which is somewhat suspect in itself, that they would not see to try and restructure or recap italize that particular operation to make it move into the area that is nonmilitary in nature in the operations of the type of equipment that they build. So I hope the government is taking a proactive role to try and save that, but it is my understanding that that is not happening and that they are not working co-opera tively with the particular employee representatives to try and make sure that this par ticular plant stays here.

If I am wrong in that, please stand up in this Chamber and point out how you are trying to make sure that the Bristol operation stays in Winnipeg.

384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 97 Now, getting over to railways that the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) raised a few moments ago, this pertains to the agricultural industry of the province as well.

One of the things that has bothered me most about the backlog of ships that is now on the West Coast is that those number of ships there that are causing great expense to the Wheat Pool and the Wheat Board operations which is in tum being passed on to the farmers of the province, the producers, is at a great cost, when my understanding is that the rail equipment, from what I am being told, was not available and that we had during the colder months-and I know we have not quite moved out of that phase yet of the winter, by today's temperature anyway-in the railway equipment we had, one-third of our rolling stock was out of service.

Our locomotive fleet was out of service during the winter months when we could have been moving the grain product to those ships that are now sitting on the West Coast ports. That is a problem for me because in my particular constituency we repair that rolling stock equipment. That is high-skilled, relatively well-paid jobs in the province of Manitoba that are no longer here and that the farmers of the province are being disadvantaged as a result of the companies, both CN and CP, not to repair the rolling stock equipment.

We have had only a few hundred jobs that are remaining in the Transcona plant operation, when we had several thousand people who used to repair that rolling stock. Now we are down to about 750 or 800 people. The motor car operations where the locomotives are repaired are not being repaired there and therefore cannot pull the grain cars to the port and fill up the ship so that the farmers can sell their product. So we have a problem here that needs to be dealt with. I had hoped that the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay) or the Minister of lndustry and Trade (Mr. Downey) or even the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) would have picked up the telephone and talked to the head of CN and CP Rail and said, listen, we have a serious problem here. Our province is being disadvantaged. Get those people back working in those plants and repair that equipment and get the grain to port so we can sell our product. Well, he has never said that in this House, never said it in this House.

So I leave that with the Minister of Highways and Transportation to make sure that we get the skilled tradespeople back working in that particular plant operation to get our people employed but, at the same time, to make sure that the farm produce is moved to market so that we can continue to export our product to all the markets of the world. One of the things that I want to get back to was the jobs that are lost as well with respect to the 900 jobs that were lost during the month of January alone.

Now, members opposite all know that it was Rogers Sugar or Molson's or the CP jobs going to Alberta, the Portage manufacturing company that closed, I mean these are serious job losses. These are well-paid jobs. high skilled jobs on many of them, if not all of them, and yet these jobs have left the province.

If you take a look at the revenue loss alone to the province, if you take an average salary for any of these people, which is $35 ,000, which could be considerably higher than that, but I know it is not lower-if you take that $35,000 figure for those approximately 900 jobs that were lost, we lost $3 1 million in income for our people of this province when those industries either folded or moved. If you take a look at the revenue to the province alone, it is well over $7 million in taxation revenue to the province. That is just on the income tax side.

That is not counting the sales tax side for the people who would spend that money having been employed in those particular jobs. * (1 530) So I take no comfort in the throne speech here when they talk about jobs. I take no comfort in the statistics that have been coming out where the government talks about 23,000 new jobs when I know full well looking at those jobs that most of them are part-time jobs at much lower pay level pay levels than had been paid at those companies that had folded.

So we are going to have a serious downward spiral on the ability of the people of this province, the consumers of this province. to provide for their families at a lower income level, which means less revenues for the province to work with to provide the programs that we all need and want, and it is a downward spiral that will continue to erode the values of life that we treasure and cherish.

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 385 The throne speech document also talked about First Nations communities. I find it very cynical that you would put that much talk and effort into your throne speech after what you have done to First Nations programs in this province since 19 88. An Honourable Member: More than anybody else in the long history of Manitoba governments, certai nly more than the New Democrats . Mr. Reid: Yes, you have a long history all right, a long history of eroding and cutting the progra ms; that is what you ha ve.

If you take a look at the program s that have been cut here, and I have had an opportunity, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I feel very fortunate and privileged to have the opportunity to tra vel with my coll eagues to the North, whether it be the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), The Pas (Mr. Lat hlin), any one of the communities I have had the opportunity to travel and to meet many of the people in those communities, and I find that they are the most disa dvantaged people that I have ever seen in any of my travels in the province of Manitoba.

I can only reference back to my trip to Shamattawa a few years ago and saw the deplora ble conditions that were occurring in that community and then listened first hand to my colleague the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) when he raised the matter with the South India n Lake water treatment plant broken down and no pota ble water for the residents, no clean drinking water for the residents in those communities. I find that deplora ble that we would have a situation like that.

So, when you are talking about your infrastructure program, as you have talked about in the throne speech, I hope you are going to talk about sewer and water programs and how we can improve the quality of life in the communities, whether it be the northern communities, the First Nations communities, the rural communities or the communities in the city of Winnipeg that have deplora ble or fa ltering or fa iling sewer and water program s.

I think you should be investing those monies of the infrastructure program into programs like that so that we can have saf e communities and saf e water in our homes for ourselves and our fam ilies. [interjection] I am sorry, I do not follow the minister; I am talking about sewer and water programs throughout the province of Manitoba.

Northern Aff airs communities, and even the city of Winnipeg has a crumbling infrastructure and you are talking about putting $35 million into the Kenaston underpass, overpass, whatever you are going to build there, when we have streets and sewer and water systems that are crumbling around us. To me, it does not make any sense. You put in place the funding and the program s to take care of your ba 5ic human needs first before you start going into the frills and luxuries that you had planned to do with that particular fac ility.

I gave you options and constructive suggestion last session during the throne speech debate where you could redirect that money to solve the flooding problem, the sewer and water problems of south Tra nscona and solve your problem with the relocation of the Kenaston yards . No, you did not listen. You said it was a good idea, but here we are a year later, same point, no action. I will be interested to see when your budget comes out whether or not you do solve the flooding problem for south Transcona. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know my time is very short.

I hope the government will take the necessary steps to-and we have not heard about any progress on Winnport, something that you announced, I think it was in 19 91. I do not see any progress on that. You are going to accumulate a bit of land. You are going to put a road out to it. I do not see any plans at this point to have any industry move in there. I do not see any value-added industry coming in. I have not heard about any contracts that you signed with businesses to come in, truck or rail their product in here and fly it out so we can have some two-way traf fic.

I have not heard an ything about that, no an nouncement in this throne speech, none last year that I could recal l. So I do not see any progress on that front. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is why I support the motion that was made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), my Leader, with respect to the throne speech that is before us here today. I think this government could have gone a long way further to addressing the problems that are fa cing the people of Manitoba and the people of my community, something that was not done with this par ticula r throne speech.

I find that, for that reason, I cannot support this throne speech. Thank you.

386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 12 , 19 97 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am honoured to be able to represent the people of Brandon West and take

part in this discussion this afternoon on the Speech from the Throne given at the opening of the Third Session of this Thirty-sixth Legisla ture for the province. I would like right off to say a word which I hope will be read at some point by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor and commend the Lieutenant Governor for the fine job that he did in read ing the Speech from the Throne and the exemplary way in which he carries out his duties and responsibili ties as the vice-r egal representat ive in the province of Manitoba. (Mr.

Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Chair ) I have had the pleasure in previous responsibilities to work closely with our Lieutenant Governor, and I can say that from that experience alone it is clear to me that our Lieutenant Governor is a committed and distinguished Canadian whose service to his country and to his people is appreciated and ought to be made note of at every opportunity. I would like to join many of my collea gues, as well, in expressing my support for the work of the presiding officer of this House.

That job, it has been made clea r to me over my years in this place and as an employee for a number of years in the House of Commons, Mr. Acting Speaker, it has been made clear to me that the job of presiding officer is indeed an exacting and demanding one. The discharge of the duties of the Speaker of this Legislature has followed in the tradition of other distinguished and committed Spea kers who I have seen over the years.

No matter which way a Spea ker finds himself or herself to the Chair of a Legislative Chamber, and that remains for debate and discussion, no matter who occupies that Chair, no matter how impartial or committed, that job can be made very difficult indeed if there is not a spirit of co opera tion in a legisla tive body. There is no question but that parties are going to disa gree, individuals are going to disagree, and parliament prov ides us with an opportunity to make that known.

But surely to goodness, Sir, as civil ized human beings, we can work together to work out whatever differences we have or at least debate them in a civiliz ed manner and to work within a framework that is acceptable to the people we represent. I have my regrets too about the proceedings in this Chamber in the past few months, Mr. Acting Speaker, and I have seen low moments in parli amentary bodies and legisla tive bodies in the past. What we saw last November was an example of one of those low moments or what the British sometimes call those sticky patches we encounter from time to time.

I would not want to encounter a sticky patch like that very often in my pa rlia mentary and legisla tive career, but I just make the comment that there needs to be a will amongst the members for a House to work. When things tra nspire with which one group or individual disagrees, it is not good enough and it is not credible simply to pick out one individual and blame that person for whatever it is that is upsetting you. One might sometimes look at one's own behaviour or deportment and look for improvements there. I will tell you, I do it. I will try to do it.

I do not want my deportment in this place to detract from a civil ized process under which we can govern the people of this province, and I suggest that all of us could stand to look in the mirror from time to time and exam ine our own behaviour and our own deportment and our own at titudes about the way we do our work. So I will commit to doing that, and I would ask all honourab le members maybe to do the same thing from time to time. It is so easy simply to blame somebody �lse.

I do not stand in my place today to spend a lot of time blaming and casting doubt on the credibil ity of some other person or group of people, but I do have a right to stand in my place in this House and state my view of the circumstances and the world as we find it today and to comment on the throne speech. I have that honour. I have been given that by the electors of Brandon West where the real power comes from. If we all would remember that in our dealings in this place, I think we would all conduct ourselves with just a little more civility.

There is not a person in this Chamber that I cannot deal with on an amicable basis I suggest, and I would hope that we would all perhaps bring our behaviour to such a point where we could all say that same thing. * (1 540)

March 12 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 387 I detect in some honourab le members a sense that oh, I do not want to work with these people. You know, that is not going to work for the benefit of the people of this province if we continue to have that kind of an att itude in our proceedings in this place.

So I would like to use this opportunity to appeal to all honourable members to put the requirements, the wishes, the needs of our coll ective constituency, that is the people of Manitoba, ahead of our own personal likes and dislikes, our own personal vendettas or whatever it is we have that sometimes gets in the way of a ra tional view of the world. It is a pleasure for me to welcome some new ministers to the cabinet in the Province of Manitoba and to comment on the perf ormance or the contribution made by former members of our cabinet.

I can do that without hesitation because the colle agues that I have been working with on the government side of the House have been very supportive of me in my undertakings as a minister and as a member trying to do the work of the people of Brandon West. So I very much appre cia te that. On many occasions the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) and the honourable member for Charleswood (Mr.

Ernst) have been very kind not only personally to me but have been very supportive of those things that I needed support for for the benefit of the people of Brandon West, working in the context of a whole province of a mill ion people. But the people of Brandon West, I think, would join with me in extending thanks to the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) and the honoura ble member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst) for the contributions they have made that have had a direct beneficial impact on the people of Brandon West.

I would welcome my new colleagues in cabinets as well and wish them well in their responsibilities. The honourab le Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ra dcliffe), the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), the Minister of Northern Affairs and Native Affairs (Mr. Newman). They bring considerable skills to the task, and they have been given considerable responsibilities. I look forward to seeing them discharge their duties, but I can tell them that, if they enjoy the same kind of friendly and helpful support of colle agues ar ound the cabinet and caucus ta ble that I have enjoyed, Mr.

Acting Speaker, you and I can attest to the fa ct that working together can bring some benefit to our individual constituencies. So I can see that sort of relationship carry ing forward with our new ministers as well as the ministers that have occupied the Treasury bench already in the past. I would like to take a moment in this discussion this afternoon to call to the atte ntion of honourable members and all the people of Manitoba the distinguished service and distinguished record of achievement of the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon) of the Province of Manitoba during these past nearly nine years.

Manitoba has en joyed unparal leled growth, unpar alleled stab ili ty in economic and fiscal matte rs, a very responsible approach to government which is being noticed not only in the rest of Canada but in pla ces well beyond the borders of our country. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I think it is a credit to the logical and compassi onate approach that the First Minister of Manitoba takes to the governance of the people of this province, and I think that our children and our grandchildren will be grateful to all of us for ha ving supported the thrusts and polic y directions of the present adm inistrat ion in the province of Manitoba. Much of what has been done in the past nine years has been done with the presence, shall we say, of honourab le members opposite working in their capacity as members of Her Ma jesty's loyal opposition.

From time to time debate gets a little more pointed than it should, and when that happens, we ought to correct ourselves, but honourable members opposite surel

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c18dc9e21e81703ec8eebedab42bbcdd87e607ec

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