VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, 1978 NO. 7

:1a rch 15, 1978 Taoe 195 D:·l - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~~R. SPE.l\KER: Order, please! I would like'to welcome to the gallery visitors from Harbour Bretor:. They include Mayor Goodwin accompanied by Councilors Mahoney, Bugler, Jackman and the town manager.~r. Fiander. I know han. menbers join me in welcoming these gentlemen of Harbour 3reton. '1 P.. SPEll KER: ~· lR. HOUSE: STATE11ENTS 3Y r•I:~ISTE~S The hon. ~inister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, in the last two or three years the teachers' collective agreement nakes ;Jrovi s ion for educational leave for teachers and I have been announcing t~at each year in the ~ouse. I am nleased to report that we have again approved leave for two teachers for one semester in the next pcademic year. On the recommendation of the special leave committee I am happy to announce that leave will be grant­ ed to a Mr. Warren Rose of Hampton and Mr. Russell alaodon of English Harbour West. t·JR. SPEAKER: The han. member of Port au Port. t1R.

HODDER: I would just like to congratulate those two teachers on their leave and I do hope that the leave to pursue their studies, whatever, will be beneficial to them and to the school system which th2y represent. PRESENTI'H1 PETITI'J ilS f·l R • S P E !'I K E R : The han. member of Fortune - Her:nitaqe. MR. J. WINS0R: Mr. Speaker,I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of a total of 8~5 people of Harbour Breton.

And I will read the prayer of the petition as it is written here: ''He the undersigned do hereby petition th~ House of Assembly for consideration of the praver of our petition in which we are asking for a grant · of funds sufficient 568

ilarch 15, 1978 Tape 1% 011 - 2 NR. J. WINSOR : to enable us to construct a municipal building which will house the council office and chambers,as well as sufficient storage soace for the town fire truck and ambulance. Where&s Harbour Breton is a continually growing town which is the largest in the district of Fortune and Hermitaqe 1 we find that the council off i c e s ~a c e i s i 11 ad e C! u a t e and not s u f f i c i en t.

The pre s en t storage space that houses the town's fire truck is also extremely small and inadequate and the proper maintenance cannot be carried out on this vehicle and will eventually lead to the deterioration of all the enuipment:' In sneaking to this ~rayer, supporting it, c2rtainly aqree with their n e e d s and t h i s iJ a r t i c u l a r i t em .

T h e b u i l d i n g c u r r e n t l .'I u s e d by the town council I do not think anybody knows the exact age of it~ th~y are telling me seventy_- five to ~ hundred years, and a building built seventy- five to a hundred years ago is bound to be inadequate for this time. do know that the council office is approximatelv einht by twenty - four and you have to oass through the foghorn papers office get into it. If somebody was invited this morninq for a cup of coffee doubt if they had enough room for their elbow.

And I do think it is very important that the equioment tha~ they have,which is now in extremely ooor soace.to get c~rtain types of equipment off the fire truck they have to drive it out of the present garaae they have it in 1 and as a matter of fact to back it in there they do have to take some of the necessary equipment off. So obviously this building is far from adequate and the town building is not entjrely situated in the best place for the size of a town like Harbour Breton; it is ex­ panding far and away from the sii, oF the present town building and I do think that the grass roots government 569

.. .. arc:~ 15, l ~72. of any to••";]., ~s.peciall;,- a t:o:.-n t!:.e size o£ ilarbour Jreto~ \~~ith 2,50J peroor..s. ancl ;;ro-..;irJ.g every day, oecowinc; far 17lore ii:1portant. T;1e economy of that to~ is real ;:;ood. Sir.c.: t~1e firm of Fishery Products L1as takeu over tlle pl3.nt t::ere ~ms been a noticea"ule iaproveuent in t:1e. e.cono~y of :iarbour Jreton an.i I thiTii.. they deserve every consic...i.eration in their petition. I asl; t:1at this petition be place:l ··"·i1ich it relates. i=iear, hear! The hon. Leader of the OIJposition. I ·,;·ant to speak in supf~ort .Jf t:1.i.s ~h~titl.on, :-:r.

Spe.aker, so aCnirably prese~tc=d 0:' wy coll2[...;ue, t~1e L12!":t~er for t~:.e district :J:.1ic~1 inc:ludes the vi1J:rai.::.t, vit.:.l 2.~1C:. g.rowin6 toKn of .. Iarbour ~ret on. I :1.ave tf1e fondest memories of the tmm every ti~1e I visited it, 3ir. A..'ld this ;:>ctition bears out the interest of the people, 845 I believe .. as the figure the hon. member mentioned as the number of people who :1ave si2,ned this petition in a town of some 2,50') people, which ;:,.ust be, Sir, every single adult .o:tan and tJoman in that town of - 1 :Iarbour Bratoa.

It just shows the interest in municipal affairs, ;:,.unicipal government and the future of their or,m municipality, shoFn 0y the people of the tor.;n of ~{arbour 3reton. It is a Eodest request, ~lr. Speal:er, for a ;.J.Unicip:ll public buildint;. ':hey .:!re not asking for t~1:= ~::.oon. T~~ey ar2 t: .. 8~ aski:1~ £or a l3.vish e::pencliture of public funds.

They are asking for a municipal building to :10'..1se the; various thi!le:;s t~1at go on in a municipality, incluclin;; council .Jffices, r would imagine, the fire fighting apparatus for that town an:i other things that go on as Hell under the aegis of municipal eovern..sent. A very uodest yet a very necessary request beinc; made by the good citizens of :Iaroour :areton. 5'10

::arc~ 15, l'J78 :r: - 2 I com.qend the petition, 3i:r, to tile l1on. i·linister of ~[unicipal Aff~irs and t:rJ.e. govt;!r!l.r.lent generally and I do hope that when the buds;et is brought down on ':'riday that there is sufficient funds allocated to tl1e :lepartnent of · 'mlici2al Affairs, or any other relevant departw.ent, to a.llm• tllis very necesoary, this very vital structure to go a:1ead in :lar~our IJreton at t!le beginning of the co"Pling construct ion season. Thank you, c·fr. S peal~er. The hon. ;:;;ember for Bay of Islands, follmced by t~e hon. gentleman to w.y ris:1t. :m..

L. :mon~o:·l: I <VoulC: like to back this petition and in so doing also want to welcome my old friends fron Harbour Breton up in the galler::v. I arrived in ~Iarhou:: 3-ceto."'l, ~!r. SLJeE.l::.er, on Jov:~uWer ~, J.c, 1948 and ct tl12.t the only 1vay to get to and fron :rarbour 3reton vas ~y boat. I stc~ye~ tl!ere until July 1~56, but c:1ring the year 1955, in the month of Jar.uary,I \vas one of ::he 11eople '"ho took

part in a conference here in St. John's in connection with South Coast matters and as a result of that conference a fish plant ,,;ras established in the comnunity of olarbour Breton. :'low I do not knm>' if I would be Jetting out of order or not, clr. Speaker, but the wD.y :rou are smiling up there SOl!E '-lON. :IE:·!BERS: :rear, hear!

As I s.c.id 1 as a resul:: of t::a:: conference. ;re:at things hn?pened in t~-:.e coa"'"":lunity cf ~{arbour 13rcton a:-trl ! ::an tell you tlLat ..::.-o::. :~48 to l'J56, liviu.; ':."::!.S 'Tery h:.r~ :.o':l!". to drive back to :~arbo~r ;Jreton, to ~e able to go there over o. road, I noticed the i~provements and the like. -~~d the people down there they <Jere very kind, they <~e:!:'e very :;ood to TT'.e, they ,.Jere !leY frienC.s. .<l..c>d I '7:?.nt to back this petition one h.t!r>•lreu and 571 . !

- ~ _~.,.,_. L1-:_-1 :.i.r.:= fro;u. t:1;; 3 t. La·wrenc~ Devclop::1.ent Coin.!uittee, i ~uu.se 572

March 15, 1978 Tape 198 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: in such a fine, fine manner by my han. friend and colleague. Surely we must realize that we hear a lot of bad things about the economy and so on from members of the House,on all sides, from time to time, and journalists and so on, and we are going to hear a lot I would think in the next few days as a result of the Bud~et.

But there is one thing the Budget will not reveal, and that is the state and the extent of volunteerism in this Province of one form or another, and we find it in every single community, in Harbour Breton, in my own district, and every district in fact.There are so many things that are happening throughout this Province where we would be so lacking were it not for the volunteer efforts, many millions of hours contributed by so many people,men and women, and young people, boys and girls,in so many walks of life, giving up of their time from their families, and so many other things to help the community.

For example, volunteer fire brigades, that my hon. friend referred to in Harbour Breto~. And if it is so 1as this petition indicates that there may be a serious problem because of lack of space for this volunteer fire brigade to operate efficiently,then the least we can do as legislators is to see to it that we provide the initiative, provide the structure where the volunteers can operate. I mean,is that not what government is for? Is not that what it is all about? So I am sure the minister will rise to support this petition signed,as the han.

Leader of the Opposition indicated, by 845 citizens, quite a chunk of the electorate and of the citizenry of Harbour Breton. I mean,if we fail to respond to legitimate, honest, reliable requests like this,then the House of Assembly is completely irrelevant,of course. What we want then is sufficient space to provide,one,for the council, again a volunteer group, one of many hundreds throughout the Province who are wanting and have in the past,who will continue,if we give them a helping hand,to serve their community and their fellow man, the council.

And then we have the Chamber of Commerce, I believe, who might also be involved there one way or the other? 573

March 15, 1978 Tape 198 PK - 2 MR. J. WINSOR: Well development. MR. NOLAN: No. I see. And then there is the ambulance that you also need additional space for. MR. J. WINSOR: Ambulance, fire truck, and support truck. MR. NOLAN: Fire truck and support truck. So these are things, they are not luxury items, they are not glamourous items, they are absolute essential items that we have in many communities throughout North America where you pay for every step of the way. This structure,if built, as I hope it will be, will be populated as such in almost every instance by people who are volunteers.

They do not get a nickel for the thousands and thousands of hours that they are going to devote to it. Now if you have people like that, and we have plenty of them throughout this Province, in the name of all that is holy let us demonstrate here and now that we are with them, and we are going to help them, and assist them in every way we can, and I look forward to the minister rising,as I am sure he wil~to support this very, very fine petition which I certainly do, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. Ma. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, before the han. minister, Sir, rises in his place to support the petition, and I hope co-operate with the municipality of Harbour Breton in seeing that they get their new municipal building, I would like to support the petition so ably presented by my han. friend on behalf of the people who live in the community of Harbour Breton. What the prayer of the petition is asking for, Mr. Speaker, is a new municipal building. I understand that the old one is about as old as Buckley's goat, and the people are asking for a new town hall, for a new municipal building. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the significant thing that strikes me about this is that here you have a fishing community in Newfoundland that is growing and expandin~ and that needs new facilities, they need a new municipal building in the community, and the irqny of it, Sir, is that today in Newfoundland the most 574

}larch 15, 1978 Tape 198 PI< - 3 Mr. Neary : prosperous parts of this Province are where the fishing indus~ is being developed , And I would think that the delegation from St. Lawrence might take some consolation and hope in the fact that they can get a fish plant in their community . AN liON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN BON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN RON. }!EMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON . }!EMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: areas. MR. NEARY: Bow about the memher fo r Labrador West? I beg your pardon? What about the member for Labrador West? The member for Labrador West? (Inaudible) . On Lake Melville? A fish plant.

A fish plant in Labrador tJest. No,but you said some of the most prosperous ~~. Speaker , the most prosper ous 575

l:c.rcil 15,1973 Tape ;.;a, 199 .rlli-1 pe.rts of :~ev;fcundle.nd toclay, Sir, ar-c not t:w urban centers. As ~ matter of fact 7 you have larse ?OCkets of unemplo~ent in t:<e urban centers and it is in the rural e.reas, in communities like Harbour Breton, that you ;1ave prosperity an.d practically full employment, in the fishing c0",1rmunities. J..ncl that is l.:hy J;.re have to pay \;tore at~ention to this particu:ar ;11?.tition t'i1an just ordit!ary _?etit:io:ts thnt are prese-zttecl in ti1::.s ·EouEe.

T~1e future of ~~t;"':vfoundla:.:.:.d is in t~!e fis:1i~1g CO!!!nunities anc.l the future 0ur:st at t:<e seaws, They need new facilities ar..C: I C:o ;lOpe that the :·Unisto:r ,_,f Hullicipal ,\ffairs will keep in mind the potential of ti.J.at coll'r.\unity 2.n; all t:1e other comr.~unities in :;etJfoundland w:1ere we i1ave developed a fishing industry to the deg;:ee that it has beeil d2.velo?eJ in Harbour Breton.

T~1~y aecd. these services :1r-~J t?l2.sc faciliti2s c.t!d tile futur~ i.o tC1ere, the ?Otential is t:1ere ar,a these are t~1e co.wn.unities and t:le peo:;?le t~lat He have to JepeEd upon for t~1e future economic 13rowth of t:tis Province. ~rr. Speaker, it gives rue ~reat pleasure to support the prayer of this ~etition. c·rR. SP::AKER: l:ion. Minister of l.funicipal Affairs ancl lLR. DINN: :•lr. Speaker, I have to get up, especially in t:1is case with respect to a municipal building in Harbour Breton.

I was clown to Harbour Breton last year and met with all of t:1e councils, or representatives of [,}1 of the co<J:,cil" on tha Sout~' Coc.st of ~ewfoundlar:d an.: at that time there were ;;:one fifty tu si;;ty ;1eo;:le :t •,:as a conference that we held with them on a re:;:ional basis~as <re have been doin3 for the past several years,and it was put on by the ;layor of the t.:ilne, Abe Godwin,who showed the kind of hospitality that I think exemplifies the people in the rural areas of Newfoundland. 1~d ' I' I( I have t:o say tilat vre held the meeting in a buildiillt that was used by Liuns Club, ar,d we have to thank organizations like that who make their facilities available w:<en 'le do not :1ave the filany needed f<~cilities 576

·:a rch 15, 197 8 T ~~ ... e ~~o . 1 5'9 that we need in ::e>{foundlaml today. He have 310, :rr, S;:Jeaker, municipalities in :lewfoundlan<.l today and 1r.a;:1y of theia are operating unJer the same circumstances that they are operating in in the community of Harbour Breton. I would say that if I coultl fill all of t:1e requests Chat cone into the Department of :tunicipal and !lousing certainly this would be one that should get some favour in the department t:1is year, although I cannot say ;.rhat will be contained in the Bud3et.

The municipality of Har~our Breton, as fomer speakers he.ve S<lid,is a vibrant community on t:1e South Coast; it :1as local leadership,as demonstrated by mayor Goc'.win,who is also a member of the Federation of :-layers and llunicipalities. These k~1ds of requests, we have some lJO, Mr.

Speaker, requests and more that have come into the departcent this year for funds, We would like to be able to supply all of t~e funds required for all of the water and sewerar;e systems and builc;.ings, etc., and certainly ti1is is one t~1at should be given acr..l"" consideration and will be in the department this year. clopefully ''e can co!ile to some kind of an azreement with the council in Harbour llreton for the funding of this zraatly needed facility. SOME -HO:l. NE-ffiERS: em.. SPEA'<ER: }!R. CALLAN : Hear, hear! Hon. member for Bellevue. lrr.

Speaker, I rise to speak in support of t;1e petition presented by my colleague with 845 siGnatures on th<it petition. :rr. Speaker, in supporting this petition I want to say first of all that I synpathi::;e •nth the residents of Harbour 3reton. I sympathize tdth the me1:1bers of the council dmm cilere, and I syn,,athize ,;ith them for t't.;o reasons; .:~umber one., of cours.=. be c:J.Use there is n.o question from what we hava hearcl said by the u:.ember r'"presenting th2t clistr.ict that the need is there for a nell municiral buildinz, so I sympat:1ize wit:i1 him. for that re.::1son. And., ~rr.

Speaker, I synpathize t·litn t:nem ior a second reason and that is that I would 577

''arch 15, 1~78 Tape 21'10 Er: - 1 ~ffi • CALLLX}l : suggest to then, do not ~old your breath expecting to get provincial noney for this project. I ~ave ?<><>d reason to be pessimistic. I have good reason. :cr.

Speaker, I yant to sav in supnorting t~is petition that SunnYsiile, wl-!ich is a f<:d rly l2rge co=unity in my district, uaited for several years to try and get a nunicipal ;-,uilr1i!'lg. ~he"'' finaJ.ly got it for anproY-irnctely ~l f')n ,nnr"' through LI? pro grammes. 1\ieht at this present moment, tonav, out in :·lorman's C'ove, the community where I live, there is a t:am!cla 1'orl's project being carried on to build a l:Juilding, a beautiful builning Hhich is about half constructecl nmv, which houses, of course, offices and a pl2ce for the fire truck and \Vhat have you.

And I ,.rould suf!gest that t:-.e council at ;.l ;J.r~our ~ret on, if no money is fort 11comiT'.(! before t".e ~ear'J . ine for anCJlieations fer r:anarla '·'arks ]Jrof;rR~!".e closes - if no r:oney or no prol'lise is forthcominll; from the De-partll'.ent of !funicipaJ. Affairs - then I ~orould suggest that this is the best possible route to go if they expect to get a building G~is summer. }fr. Speaker, I cannot help saying these thinp.;s, 'Jeeause I knm.r. Out in r.oobies, for example, out in North Harbour, these coT!lllltmities waited and hoped to get \vater and se\·rer T)rojects. They finally gave up.

And out in Goobies alone this past summer a S 71 ,

I) Oil Canada l·lorks grant !'1ac1e >Iater available to t~a t cor..1runi ty. Order, olease! I rmuJ.c1 point out to t~e "on. qentle!""ln. that the allegation, the material of the petition, is \.:ith resp~ct to a council building in t'arhour Breton, and I think in getting into <·later and se1.rerage in the ''orman 's Cove area the hon. gentleman may have strayed geographically and logically as well. HR. r:&'\.LLA.'l : Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Like the member for Bay of Islands (''r. \-Joodrow) I thought I might be in the realm of dehate there, but I seem to remember some of the other neoole ~1ho spoke 578

:larc'l 15, 1'?73 'raoe 2'1'1 :r: - 2 "P.. r.ALL.'0! : talked about the fisheries and the hackbone of the rural communities and so on. But anyway, :•r. Speaker, in continuing to support this petition I ~.;ant to say in conclusion really that I ]'.one that the "inis ter of "unicipal '\ffairs a.nd T'ousing 1vill and can find the funds to carry out this ~Jorth1-1~1ile nroject i!:! Tcar'Jour Ilreton as uell as the many other requests t'J.at he no -:!oubt has. Yr.

S~eakzr, t~1e :,.~nis ter of ''unicipal Affairs and Eousin~ mentioned that there are 31'1 ~unicipalities in this Province. '·Jell, the latest figure that I had vras 311 ancl. I •N"ill be getting into this at anot~er tiQe, another place, in anot~er debate. ':Jut I guess ~vhere the 3l'l - or the other one went was that a charter ~ .. :~s rerr:.eve(f fran a wu.""'!.icipnli ty in ny C.istrict. .·'\nd again, I -:!o not ~m. DINN: At its request. r_\L~.'.':: ~ut I cannot enter into ccbate. I support t,e oetiticn. l'rrl.er, please! '?::.1·2 ~.1on. r.e!nber for ~· urgeo - ~ay d'Espoir . ''r.

Speaker, I '"oulc like to len:! rr.y support to the petition presented by ny colleague from -::-ortune - llermitage. As his i=ediate predecessor as a Il'.ember for tc1e area I would very !!1.1ch ,;ant to he associated wit!-1 this petition. I :-~nm.; the need that is spelled out in the petition, the need for a ne>v l;uilding to ':ouse the various functions that have been referred to ·)y several speal~ers already. I ' ;its g1 n.C: to .._,ear t'he ~~inister of ? .. ~J:nicip~J . :\ffairs say he sunport2(: this. r~e s ~ 1all wait '"it:, bated breath to see vrl-Jat the suoport means. Per"teps it means, '·'r.

Speaker, that the ninister is availing of an opportunity to reverse an ongoing policy of his departr.ent, a policy which a.."l.swers the query he had last Fall as to why there were not too many candidates offering themselves for municipal office. He did not come across the answer to that one yet. Be was concerned that some councils did not have enough candidates offering. 579

Tnpe 2':1~ :c - 3 .\r.d the reason, ··r. Speal~e r, t 1e r eason is in the policy ·vhic.'l the minister has today at least verbally reversed. The reason is that he , anc! particularly his predecessor , t:te jlrese:'lt ".inister of ~:ines an<! l:nergy, had so frustrated ev.er y council in ::<wfoundland - ll!'\. HON. :'E·tttR : ·r. .. ' lu\~Y : "R . sr~·o:;s: Lay off ! "ear, ~ea r! - so frust rate d t~em cevonrl words tha: people just deciced to take the easy way out,and you cannot blame cham, ~ey just cecided not to offer themselves. ~ecause 580

March 15, 1978, Tape 201, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: such frustration - frustration is too soft a word, Mr. Speaker. If they were - MR. PECKFORD: MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. SIMMONS: South Brook has its council. St. John's has_too. I would say that. But now topay, Mr. Speaker, we hear at least verbally the reverse of that policy.

Now the department is going to get behind municipalities who have councillors who without pay are trying their best to do a difficult job under impossible circumstances, made all the more imporssible by a department that keeps suggesting they should jack up their rates, that they should operate without the physical facilitates to operate. I would hope - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I must p~int out to the hon. gentleman that the Standing Orders require that han. members in supporting petitions confine their remarks to, essentially 1 the material allegations of the petition, and also that there may be no debate. I would suggest that we are now getting into the process of debate on the government policy with respect to local government,which is quite a different issue than the actual prayer of the petition and that such a debate should wait until a relevant motion is before the House. Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The hon . member for Burgee - Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was hoping especially that the former Minister of Municipal Affairs would address himself to this petition. He has always taken a great interest in Harbour Breton, Mr. Speaker, a great interest. MR. NOLAN: there or something? MR. SIMMONS: Has he got a Summer place No, but he specializes in 581.

March 15, 1978, Tape 201, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: bribing twelve year olds to destroy political posters and that kind of thing, but that is another issue. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that he is straying quite 'from the material allegation of the petition and I would ask hon. members to confine their remarks to the subject matter of the petition. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: MR. PECKFORD: South Brook. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMONS: So, Mr. Speaker - (Inaudible) more about Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, he is back. Mr.

Speaker, in body he is back, he was never here in mind anyway. He is back, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. PECKFORD: I do not think that the statements now being made by the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir as they relate to "he is back" has anything to do with the material allegations or material contained in the prayer of the petition presented by the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage and therefore he is completely, as always, out of order. MR. SIMMONS: of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the point The han. member for Burgee - Let the record show,one, that I agree completely with the Minister of Mines and Energy 582 ' t

March 15, 1978, Tape 201, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: and let the record also show that for the first time in this House he has said something sensible. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order made the substance of it was certainly valid and I would point out the remarks by the hon. gentlem:an to my right were out of order. The interruptions by gentlemen to my left - I do not mean the point of order; anybody has the right to make a point of order, but the other interruptions were equally out of order. Bay d'Espoir. MR. BRETT: MR. FLIGHT: boy. MR. SIMMONS: The hon. member for Burgeo - Shot down again.

Keep quiet now, 'Charlie' Mr. Speaker, it is a question of who is shot down or who knows when he is shot down. MR. PECKFORD: You certainly do, youhave had a lot 'of experience with it. MR. SIMMONS: Now, 'Poster Peckford' we have had enough from you today. Mr. Speaker, there is certainly a need - I know the minister is tender on this point, Mr. Speaker. Of course, I would be tender too if I went around bribing twelve year olds - Mr. Speaker, there is a need - MR. PECKFORD: To a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. SIMMONS: There is a need, Mr. Speaker MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. - MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The allegation that I bribed twelve year olds is a very serious allegation and therefore I am going to ask, Mr. Speaker, that that kind of accusation, allegation 1 directed at me .should be withdrawn unequivocally by the member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir and,number two, Mr. Speaker, such 583

March 15, 1978, Tape 201, Page 4 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. And number two, Mr. Speaker,such allegations are not germaneto the prayer of the petition and hence the han. member is out of order in what he is talking about right now. Number one~ therefore, Mr. Speaker, I ask that the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir withdraw the allegation that I did at some point in time in the past bribe ten or twelve year olds. Number two, that he be ruled out of order because the allegation in any case has nothing to do with the prayer of the petition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, to the alleged point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The hon. member for Burgee - Mr. Speaker, I may well have chosen some rather unfortunate wording when I said 'bribed: It is a strong term. Mr. Speaker, I also said that if I had bribed I would be tender. I did not bribe, Mr. Speaker, so I am not tender. Mr. Speaker, if - MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the point of order, Order, please! The hon. gentleman - Oh, oh! Order, please~ I will acknowledge the hon. gentleman when I have finished my sentence.

There are two points before the Chair, one with respect to the mention of bribery and the other, the point of order with respect to relevance. They were both coupled into one so they have to be presumably dealt with together. 584

t-!arch 15, 1978 , Tape 201, Page 5 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: So the hon. gentleman presumably has spoken now on the bribery aspect of it and then if he wishes, say a few words on the other area which was relevance. But I would ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks now to the specific point of order which the Chair has to decide. The hon. meml::ler for Burg.eo - Bay d'Espoir. 585

:r~ March 15, 1978, Tape 202, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I did want to address myself to the point of order as it related to the bribery issue. I have not done that and if I could have the Chair's permission I would like to do so. Mr. Speaker, as I understand it the point of order is doublebarrelled, relevancy and the question of whether I hurt the minister's feelings on the subject. The question of bribery, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the appropriate word is. If you approach a young fellow and give him a sum of money to do a job, I have a word for it, Mr. Speaker.

The minister may have a kinder word for it. If he does, he should inform the House so we can all use it. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, may I just address myself to those comments by the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman may direct himself to the point of order but not to the debate. MR. PECKFORD: To the point or order then, Mr. Speaker, as has been addressed by the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir.

The hon. member is weasling his words now and he therefore in addressing the point of order even goes further than to accuse me of bribing a twelve year old, but is now giving some of the details which is even more allegations on the point. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The two matters - I will dispense with the second one first because it is an obvious case in that it was a point of order with respect to relevance. I have no doubt that the comments of the hon. gentleman had strayed outside the bounds of relevance.

With respect to the mention of the word 'bribery' I do feel that even if that word was 586

March 15, 1978, Tape 202, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: used hypothetically, even if it was used conditionally with the word 'if', that it is a word of such a nature that it should not be used even hypothetically because it would tend to suggest an imputation, an imputation of motive. The relevant

section of Beauchesne on unparliamentary language would, I think, rule that out of order. I think it is a word which should not be ascribed or attributed even hypothetically or interrogatively to any hon. member. So I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the use of that word. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, without qualification I withdraw the word 'bribery' because it is not parliamentary. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I believe that the hon. gentleman's time is up because according to our rules points of order intervening are counted within the five minutes. I would point out to hon. members - MR.

SIMMONS: By leave, Mr. Speaker? I MR. SPEAKER: By leave? Yes. Does the hon. gentleman have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. No. MR. SIMMONS: I would just like to say that there is no question that there is a need here - SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. No. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. SIMMONS: No leave~ SOME RON. MEMBERS : No~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. SIMMONS: You do not want to hear it? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no leave. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) • 587

March 15, 1978, Tape 202, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must insist that the hon. gentleman recognize the authority of the House. I have said this before, I have said it to hon.members on both sides, it is not a personal matter, it is the authority of the House and I have no choice but to enforce the rules. I realize often, as well, that hon. members in the heat of debate and the heat going from right to left, not necessarily going via the Chair, or hopefully not going via the Chair, it does get hon. members worked up 1 but the Chair has no choice,obviously, but to enforce the rules.

I would point out in general on petitions, and I quote from Beauchesne page 256, actually, the first four or five lines on p~titions; "The right of petitioning the Crown and Parliament for redress of grievances is acknowledged as a fundamental principle of the constitution, and has been uninterruptedly exercised from very early times." He says further on, "It is no doubt the birthright of every Canadian to apply for the redress of grievances through petition." It appears to me that the whole concept behind petitions is the right of citizens to bring forward grievances, requests to their elected members.

Our own Standing Orders, of course, in precluding debate and in stating that hon. members may only speak on the material allegation of the petition enforce that. And it seems to me that if one puts both of those together, what Beauchesne says about the whole concept of petitions and what our Standing Orders require, that really periods of petitions should not be ones of heated exchange or of debate or of a great deal of procedural interjection. Because,number 588

7 l-larch 15, 1978, Tape 202, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: one, all of that counts in the five minutes an hon. member has in supporting a petition and it would appear that it would detract from the very purpose of the petition. There is no motion before the House, there is no debate and it would appear to me that what Beauchesne says and what out own Standing Orders require is that this should be a period without debate and without heated difference of opinion between both sides of the House. 589

T~1e. hon. nenber for St. George's. :-G..S. I iCISA.l\.C; :rr. Spea~er, I ju::)t v1ant to ta:-:.~ .:.':Jcut t~o minutes to support this petition. Having worked \;it:l ~ouncils as t:owu clerk and lllanager for a nu:nber of year:; I :1ave c. tr\.le ap;,;r~ciat:iot: o£ t~~= prol.lems that they e.::~p.=rience anci ccrtair..l}~ ~;::en t:H.=y fiu.ci vehicles.

I ce:r:t;;inly think t::.at ~ ... 'e should appr-eciate. the ti!i:.e ziven by councillora, as -..:ell as t:1e volunteer fi~·2 !:-rigat:e anC: tl1e people :..-ho ";·lark on .::!nbulances; tbis is all free in .. v .. olunt~er time, time t;;;at: caul<! probably be well .>pent: on a perzo,,c:l basis,anci I ~·iaL.t to say that I t~1ink every effort that can l:la :maU.e :J~·1oulcl be made to provide facilities to ~1ouse those emer6ency tyj?c vehicles a~d I certainly support the p~t~tion. :r~... SP _: .. \.:~:R: 'I':.f"le :1on. ~z:ei:ioer fa:- Port 2.u Fort. :'I:.

J. :IODDEI'..: I beg 1-::c.ve to ~reser.t o. p~tition or.. :Oe!1alf of fifteen resiJents in the co=unity of ?iccadilly, b1mvn as Piccadilly ~ead. The prayer of the petition is, "~·Je t:1e residents of Piccadilly Ueaci ask the gover=ent to provicl~ us tdth proper drinkint; water because our wells are contaminated." ~I ow, 2:!.". Speakt!r, some tine {:!go, I think a. l~tter fran a laJy at Piccaclilly ::ead o: .. 'i10 had. moveJ i::1ere a~out a year before 8-r~d she coaplain~d that :u:r c~ildren \-ier~ sic! ... aE..l af :1ealtl1 and a~~·.eC: t:1em if they would go out :..~.1.d <.!o a survey of that particular area.

The report that came 'Jac~~ ::rom t:te Departmeu.t of :Iealth said in effect that four of t;te five sources of "ilater Hhlci•. they had ci1ecked ~Jere not located, constructed or pro tec::·=d in accorda~cc; 590

Tape :ro. 2C3 :,B.. J. ;10DD1J:R: with recomended standards an-i that ::'," r.amples that were taken inciicated the presence of col:tfor;n orge~nisms tvhich were an indication that the water '~"Has bein;; contacinatec'.

At t:1e sa.ne time I c·;ro te the Hinister of ~!unicipal Affairs aad. outlined the IJroblen to llim. ,ar..d I received H letter fran him statin;; that his c'epart;aen" would investigate that particular sourc·~ cf con::amination as vJell. :-Jm.,r someti;ne after t~at the Department of l-:unicipal Affairs .Jffices in Corner 13roo-;;. ,,rent to Piccadilly :lead anc.l t:>ey found that of the four wells o1med by residents- and there '·rere five people here, although this petition cones from t~e sixteen names signed to the r·=tition I think it represents about tart •·rells in tl1at area, only five of them '"ere chec;;.ed- but of the four :;rells o,r.1ed by the resi2.2~ts contaC!ted it appeared t:1.c~ t 1:ere v.~as a presence c£ surface ~,;ater as ";o/ell as contar.Ji1;l..a::ion. .Erocl prior co:J.struction or fron poor co:J.str-.:c:tion and a closeness of privies.

And the Department of Hunicipal Affairs therc.selves scid that all the 1vater migr.t be tamed unfit for human consumption !Jut due to the lateness of t:'le season it ~<as unlikely that anything could be done this year. It uas expressed by the ~~ater Services Division that it 1ms hoped that in the next fiscal year they would be able to take steps to gi7e these fa:nilies :3uitable drinking ,.r:c.tc:r. ?~o~r, ::r.

Speaker, the cor:m;unity of Piccadilly, ".:..L.:fore, the ?eople of the S~1ip Cove £rea in particu!ar, did not ;;et - altl1oug~1 t:1e ~;ells ~;ere Jrilled and they were promised ;JUnp ~louses and vell i1ouses an<l pumps anC' that :;ort of t':inc;, no:::.e of these :1ave ~2~"'.::n supplie.::i yet. Jut t:i:1e problz:u e:.::!..sts ti~rot.;e;~tot:t. the ul~ole 591

March 14, 1978 Tape 204 PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: quite stretched out, I think the community runs somewhere about seven miles, and I personally feel that if all the water supplies or wells were checked throughout that area the same problems would be encountered. Now, Mr. Speaker, a pure clean supply of drinking water is one of the most important services that an individual can expect. And yet in this area, and in other areas in the district of Port au Port,the drinking water is either non-existant or impure.

I have raised it many times here in the House of Assembly, last year and the year before; I believe that something must be done about it. I do not know if some of you - or last year the CBC did a little story on this particular part of Piccadily; you know, it showed a woman coming out of her home Wintertime lifting the water, dragging the water back into her home, and this particular area if anybody saw that- she was a widow- and that particular well was contaminated. Now this is not an isolated incident. It occurs throughout the whole area. I do not know. I have outlined the problem.

I do hope the Department of Municipal Affairs will look at this particular problem. It is a very, very serious problem. It is a serious problem for the whole cental part, there are five communities involved. I believe that the only solution is to conduct a survey of the whole central part of the district. I think water has to be provided from Campbell's Creek to Lower Cove, and from Piccadily to West Bay.

I think it is a serious problem, and I would ask the minister to do something , to have his officials look at it, and I lay the petition on the table of the House and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. }!EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, once again I want to stand in support of that petition,because again it has to do with drinking water and people who are trying to get government assistance to get a better supply of drinking water. The member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) in presenting the petition mentioned of course the 592

March 15, 1978 Mr. Callan: been hooked up. Tape 204 PK - 2 artesian wells that are there and that have not I believe this is pretty consistent throughout the Province,wells that have not been hooked up. Mr.

Speaker, I hope that when the minister stands to support this petition, as I know he will, perhaps the minister can allude to a question that arises here; starting this new fiscal year anybody or any number of families who want government assistance for an artesian well system or a water system has to come up with 25 per cent of the cost themselves, Now this is brand new coming in in this brand new fiscal year. Perhaps the minister when he supports the petition, Mr.

Speaker, can explain a question that is in the minds of many Newfoundlanders; this 25 per cent that will have to be raised,will this just apply to brand new applicants or will it also apply to people who have had ongoing requests, and ongoing problems, and ongoing application with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing for water and sewer or just in this case of course water system in unincorporated communities.

So perhaps the minister, who is not here now, and probably will not get a chance to support the petition, he may; if he were here I am sure that an awful lot of people would be interested in knowing the answer to that question, whether the 25 per cent applies to new applications or ongoing ones. Mr. Speaker. I support the prayer of the petition, PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with

Section 51 (3) of The Financial Administration Act I table the report of The Guaranteed Loans paid in part or in whole since the last sitting of this hon. House. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: NOTICES OF MOTION The hon. 11inister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into a Committee of Ways and Means To Consider The Raising Of Supply To Be Granted To Her Majesty. And I further give notice that I will on tomorrow ask the House To Resolve 593

March 15, 1978 Tape 204 PK - 3 MR. HICKMAN: Itself Into A Committee Of The Whole To Consider Certain Resolutions For The Granting Of Supply To Her Majesty. 594

March 15,1978 Tape No. 205 AH-1 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: I would like to direct a question to the bon. the Premier,Mr. Speaker. Oh1 I did not notice he is not there, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the hon. the Premier, Sir, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Deputy Premier, House Leader, Minister of Finance, Minister of Justice, a man who merits all these highfalutin titles. ~m. m:ARY: Future judge. MR. W.

ROWE: The question, Sir, has to do with the agreement, the alleged agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland to get on with the Lower Churchill development - a development which Mr. John Crosbie will never go ahead. The question, Sir, is what exactly is the form of the agreement between the Newfoundland and Labrador Povernment and the Government of Canada MR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKHAN: Mr. Speaker, han. gentleman will realize that at the first Minister's Conference there was a statement issued by the bon.

Alastair Gillespie and the hon. the Premier indicating the Government of Canada would be prepared to participate in an equity position with the Government of Newfoundland in a corporation which they would be prepared to open negotiations with the Government of Newfoundland to form with a view to developing Gull Island. They have not submitted any proposed agreement to the Government of Newfoundland as of now but negotiations are ongoing; indeed,negotiations opened on the following Monday as the first Minister's Conference ended on either Wednesday or Thursday.

But as of today there has been no formal agreement and there will be many things that we need explanations on because we are committed to the principle that the returns from Gull Island must be for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador only. Anyone who realizes what equity participation connotes or indicates may realize that other people may want a share of the return. I am not suggesting that the Government of Canada wants to 595 , I

March 15,1978 Tape No. 205 AH-2 MR. HICKMAN: share in the profits but certainly an equity position indicates that that is a possibility and we have to make it abundantly clear to the Government of Canada that we feel they will be discharging their national obligations to this Province and to the rest of Canada by making it possible for financing to be made available to the Government of Newfoundland at reasonable and attractive rates similar to that which has been done with other provinces.

And hon. gentlemen will realize that ordinary prudence would dictate that there be very detailed negotiations with the Government of Canada to ensure that the full returns from that resource be made available to this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 11R. SPEAKER: Opposition. Hear, hear! A supplementary, !!on. Leader of the MR. W. ROWE: That was some answer. That was some answer, Mr. Speaker. The answer in other words, Mr. Speaker, just so that the House is not confused or the media is not confused, the answer is that there is no agreement. MR. RICKMAN: That is right. MR. W.

ROWE: Can the hon. minister inform the House as to whether his colleagues, this government, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador,has submitted a proposed agreement to the Government of Canada? Have they taken that kind of initiative, Mr. Speaker? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the negotiations as they relate to Mines and Energy are being carried on,as I understand it, by officials of the department of the hon. Alastair Gillespie, Minister of Energy,Mines and Resources, the Government of Canada, and my colleague the hon. Minister of Mines and his officials.

I therefore yield to him to ensure that the Rouse has accurate details of the negotiations which are ongoing. MR. W. ROWE: Mr • Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 596

March 15, 1978 Tape No. 205 NR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker , the hon . gentleman must think when be is drawing up a legal document he is paid by the word. The answer to the question , just so the House will not be mislead or it ~ill not misunderstand the situa tion, the ansver to the question is that,no, Mr. Speaker, the 6overnment of Newfoundland has not submitted any proposed agreement to the Government of Ca.nada . 597

T.:..p.= ~ro. 206 .. :. - 1 :.rR. (:;. il. RO~IE: Llr.

Speaker, let :.ne ask t:1e Deputy ?r;;..:1ier anvt:>er question. \·!ill :1e tell :r.e '"hat measures hia govern=.e•1t, :lia colleagues, the Government of :{ewfoundland, have made to date to ensure that if, and,and whe:1 construction starts on nat on.!y the labour jcbs- jobs involving labourj uns:\.ill~d jobs- but jobs ~;hich require skillt.C. trc:ir.i:J.g? ~?hat :1as ;;ets unden1ay, whiclt I hope will be quidJ.y, it is :~ewfoundlau~e:::s and Labradorians 1~!10 v7ill s;et the a:cilled trade jo~s rather t::1an t~1ese jobs~ tha ~i.iJher paid skilled jobs,goit'l;; to Central Can:?.da., f!ue':Jec and Ontario1 :That have they done to date, Hr.

Speake:::? That is a question directly to t:H! :1on. t!te Deputy Premier, Th2. l~ono ~-Iinister of :lines and :nersy. I i1ave a i]_ues tior. l from the I..e.:.·le= · J~ th~ Opp:>s it ion •.:i.1ich I t·tou:d like to anst.rer o :~umber one - the Governnent of :·!ewfoundland has put: proposals forward which vlill be t;'le kerne.L of an agreement reached on the Lmver Churchill Development CorilOra ticn . :l:ut::.er tHo - Oh, oh! ~IR. PECKF:'JF.D; :-rr. Speake:.:, car. I - ;_:7 :-:O:i. :.rr:::IBER: Get your 'let: toJether. Th:2 school boy does not kno1o1 t!~e Uif£er~nceo :n ..

Pt.c;z:<ORD: ::r 0 3p~.!ll·~er J number t"t:·lo - -;;.;e have in corre.spoEdence ·;it:, the fed~ral ~over:lHent in::- L.;te:d on like policies o£ the ::>aBt -~.no ·~ _~..:. ..... SPEAKER: :~;;_o SI:IFONS: Order, pl~ase! Order, ple<·se! - are going to ensure. Respect the Chair, boy. Order, please! I think it is necessary to point out t:1at in referring to events which may or may not have llappene<.l 598

::arc!1 15, 1973 Tape "a. 206 :m. SPI:.\KI:R: years a30, the. han. ge.ntle.r~1an is really en;;aging in de~ate,and ~lao I would s~:~est ti~at during questions and answers, when t:1ere are interruptions that this also .:r~al~es debate, if not inevitable, extremely likely. The hen. ~:inist:r of ~!in~s and Jnergy. :~:-: - 2 :[r. Spea!::.cr, there. is no a~reenent sic~.e:I by ~oth governnents for the Lm.;er C~urchill I:evelopl:'.ent Corporation. There h.=.s bee'!..1 proposals IJUt for\·:ard by the Gover::un.F..nt of ~·12\V:::)unciland ~;hich will be the principles that will govern us in nct;otiating an agreement.

Secondly, m~ have :!.!lsi:; ted in writ in;; to the fec!eral ;overnment, some ti:ne ago, that we '.vill Hant as part of that a::;ree':lent, and as part of that project or any other project in Labrador, or u:1y ot!1er project in ~~e·.;f:-t.:.n:il.:.=.d a:1C. Lzb!."aU.cY i~ uhich tl~c:.re is :..ssur::.n.ce t:1.:1t one. 1~ur...:.-;:-::d :'e:.- c.~~t of th~ jobs on that project "''1erever it hapnens to tie b. thi" Provic.ce, ~·Jill be done f)y ~e,.Jfoundlanders.

That is in Hriting nc~.r. :<e:;otiations are continuing 1o1ith the federal ;o•rern"'lent tmvards the establis:m!ent of the LOl·1er Churcn:!.ll inEorr:Le:cl .:;o ::iu:.t it c.an b~ clearly .se:cn tnat this ~ove!:'nm.ei..1t ::.~ :Lu favour :>f ~;z.·v.•four.dla.~d~rs fir~t, and .... cre2tin6 jobs. The :~.l~is ter of Justice: s:iould really be :::ept ir. on t~u: act, ~~r. S;..eaker, so he kno,·Js '.;hat is zoir..e; on, a.s he is t~e Senior L~gal Counsel. Ask him if i.1e u.::;rees with what his colleague just aaici? Let ne rephrase t~1e qu~sticn, :tr. S?eaker, becaus~ 599

: :.:&r.:::~ !5, 1~72 \lnderstood :.·b~c I as:ted b si:!lple t~r:ns , rhey are t:1ese: :lis at :.:a;::s~.: res has :::~e sove ::-=ent ::aken co ensure ::ha:: •.;e ~eve in joos 00in& to :: ~em "hen t ~e pro jdct starts? Which, Mr .

Speaker , to cor.~ i!::!:l the :1ue:ution , :!..> e far cry fro:n merely .ts suri ng t:.e peot,l.a t hat: one l:uncired i'Ct' ceu;: of tile jobs ',Jill zo to :~e'O."fcur.cil;::l:t:cra • lt tC'le :l.:,do:::ullo.uJ !lOt:kers lo :1.0t :1ave the crainins ao:i ::~e tro.des to t.a!:e over ::hese jobs , t ~en ';:ow c::n \:e :.,;su re :;a,=ounU.a:~d, or ~o,. ca.1 tho Gover=ent of Cacaea assure ~et~fcut~dla.c.d ::::a:: oce Z::!.!i:.'i ~ ) : • ..lV::! .;o:Je l:i:1u of a - ::::e :> cc::::it7 bl<1:-:ke:: is co l:~S !: ou:: ~t :~e :ederal ~over~ncr. t , to olaoe tile federal gove~en:: o r to ?in respocsib!licy . ::-na:: has :!:e ~over~ent of Canada :;ot co do ;.-it!! our ::-~spo::tsiblli ty :o ensure that our t.ror kers in chis Province :1ave t.'le tra:!es and the sk!l .:.::; necessary to taka over :~~se jobs ?

It is a clear relin <1uis::li.e:'lt of res;:-o~sibiliccs . .!..\. ~ARY: This iiouse <iecicles :hat . liear, hc.:r! 6'JO

l!arch 15, 1973 ~ ·'R. SPF:A.T<ER: l!R. PECKFOl'J) : Tape 207 !:C - l T~e non. ~finister of ~:ines and Energy. :;o , :!r.

Speaker, we are taH:ing about an agreement between two governments and therefore it is going to be financing between t;;o governrnents, and ~7e are just 'insuring ti":at in anv agreement, any cornoration that is set up, t~at one of t~e things that is covered there, so t :'lat omm the road there is no problem on it, is that all enployrnent VJill !:>e generateJ and 1dll coiO.e from '!e1doundlanders, t~at any job that is created because of that project is for Newfoundlanders. •:ow, the first part of the hen.

Leader of the Opposition's question as related to skilled lvorkmen, 1.re have in this Province right now, as has been demonstrated very recently by co~ents made by leading conpanies lvho did tl:e extension to Bay d'!:spoir, that ue have some of t:1e most sl:illed people in Canada for ~y1ro electric nrojects. ' !e 1\ave availa ble a nool of expertise in this Province today P'lo can do perhaps a :~etter job on installing hydro electric projects than any other province of Canada. &7 HON. ~1BffiER: Hear, hear! HR.

PECKFORD: ;lumber t wo, if it co~r.es to the point 1.rhere 1ve can ascertain that there are going to be skilled tradesmen needed on a project in newfoundland for which there is not sufficient skilled tradesmen no,T, we will insure that they are trained and that th~ y )!et the jobs and that nobody fron outside t~is Province 1-lill get them. ~ m.. U. "T. <.OPT::: original questioner. l)h, oh ! A supple1"1entary, ~·r. Sneaker. One final supplementar:.· by the ;.r;t. ~·'. •:. "01-lf.: Let me make sure t~at we g:et the ansl·rer clearly, Sir.

The ans' ·'er to the question,as I understand it,is that not~ing has been done to date to insure in the way of job training, skills, training to make sure that i<ewfoundlanders get the job . I u ant to rr.al:e that clear. ::r-. Pt:C F0:-'1: : That is not ri!')'lt. 601

Tape '1'J7 ~c - 2 Is t~e hon. minister saying, ~:r. Speaker, that we have now in this Province sufficient tra~esmen, skilled l·'orkers to ::;o ahead if the Lower Churc~ill -:leveJ.opment r;ere to zo ahen~ si:~ ~o~ths or a ye;tr fror.1 no1;7? 7hat '"e ha,ve r..o-:.' uaiting, to so i~to the T,o-r;,'er C~1urc~\ill and to complete that joh? Is the t "·il:at '!'~e :,_on. uinister of ~·i:1es ?.tid r.nerf!y. 'I'~·lO points, ;~r. S~eal-:.er.

":'irst, "le ··1ill take vhatever measures are necessary rdthin any project agreement Hhic_'1 involves financing other than just ourselves to insure that ::e-'"fcunc!l;m~.ers <-rill ~et first crack at t~1e j o'Js "ncl that it ui ll 'oe only ·:e,·fou,.,rtlanrlcrs on those projects. t;econr!ly, t'le hon.

Le,der of th2 :J-rrosition 1::noo:rs ~s -:rell as I do, as does evE:ry rr.ember of t~is :rouse, t~1at I cannot off the top of my head ~e able to sey '1o~' r;:any skilled tradesmen or ~o'<T many labourers or how r.>.any whatever are going to be needed on any project so that therefore I can equate that with knoldng '.<hether in fact we have sufficient in this Province rig-ht no<v. chat is impossible to do. That is a number that I do not have at my disposal.

Suffice it to say that this government ,,-111 undertake to insure by Hhatever means necessary to train cletvfoundlanriers ,if there are not enough, so that there •dll· be or.e hundre-:1 oer cent 'let·Ifoundlanders on any project that is ~inanced partially or totally hy this govern~ent. )!R. ~lEARY: A suppleT.'.entaJC'r, ~'r. Speal•.er. A sun~Je~~ntary by the han. ~enhcr for Lni'oile. ~'r. Speaker, along the same line of questioning in connection with the development of the Lo;;er Churchill, Sir. The Government of Canarla, the hen. ~'r.

Cullen, I believe it is, . l-, the federal l'inister of Employment and Innnigration, has indicated publicly both inside and outside the !louse of rommons that money is av~.2.1able, so !TlUCh per joh, as a job creation programme for this Province because He }!ave recorrl unemnloyl7.ent, to cut the '·TOO~ on the site of the 602

•:11 r ch 15, 197!1 Tape 2~7 :-c - :1 ~.o1~e r Churc'1ill . ~· II("" . ''!:''"aEP. : To cut sor:c of t he ~·ood - Thi s year - t o cut the ~~oocl on the site of the rievelO!\':I~nt of t~e T.o•)er Churchill. Anc' nv unc'e rstancii~g, .. r. Speaker. is t~at :~is goverrur.e.nt ha v<- :10:: '/Ct tcl:e. t~e L'li::iative t o t::ke ··r . Cullen and the r-overr.mcn t of r.ant>da u;> on his offer . roul~ c!1a minis t e r indicate if t"lis is :1:;ht o r 'Iron::;? A!·! !'O::. ~~fBER: ~!R . SPEA.'<ER: ·m. Pr:c:croP.D: It is right. I t.'i.ll !lack hi:~ uo . The hon . ~!iniste r of "ir es and Energy . ~!r.

Speaker, ~~!:e r e in, number one , the federal govern~nt offer is o:le in r;hic!: the provincial I.'Ove=.e:: :: has :::o s:>end t:.7 .U Pion in orce:: to :;ec <::! million, or <:y, r.illion in orde r :0 ~et ~u mllion, t he offe r SiVcn t-y " r. r:utlen in no !l;IV representS ~Yt,inr close to the request out to the federal gove rnment in ~une of last year, to •¥'·lie!': 'le 0:'\ly res;>onderl ~;,~!; a 'J~ol.e ne:•·l pro?osal b Februa r y o f 1~7~ ; anc i t t ook the1:1, t herefo r e, eig!'l t rr.onths to respond . lle a r e in t he proc es3 r i gh t now as a gove rnmen t of respo nding t o " r.

C:ullen 's offer ··:l:icil •:e thin~ falls €3r sl>ort of the !:ind of r equest ~o·e ~:~ade i ~ Ju:te ':l~iclt ·•as, ouc of t he SSI) million O't: $61' !!'illion or S7fl mil l i on t hat comes to t his Pr ovince through r.anac!a l'o • ks pr og r ammes each yea r, if it is $6n million take Sl 0 l!'iJlion off, t~e the o t her s:') ::lillion for your Canat'a ''ortcs ? rO~ ra=e:s . gh·e t:S t~at "lt) mil.t!o:! :o •.tse as a s,.,ecial t::anada ''orl:s project at t:te ru:!.l !sl!lnr c:!.earins site so t!:a t ··1c car p•1t t o ·,or'· 1'11lny o: thOt;'! logger!' .. ··o los: t l'ei r jn'·s :oec.:11:sa o~ ·.~::er')o.:r". n supplerent.'II'J, "::. ..pc:;:·e: . ..\ suppleme:1 cary, ''-r.

Spea:~er . 603

t·1arch 15, 1978 Tape 208 D!·J - 1 i·!R. SPEAKER: I ~Jill recogni:ze the han. member for LaPoile for a supplementary and the han. member for Port au Port for a supplementary and I think will recognize another han. member on another subject. This wi 11 not orecl ude mer1bers from cominq back to this subject if they so wish. '·IR.NEARY: nr. Speaker, it is some tir:1e aqo, as the minister just admitterl, it is some time ago since Mr. Cullen, the han. Mr. Cullen put forward this proposal, last year, and the Provincial Government have orocrastinated and as a result now, Mr.

Speaker, because of the time lapse it will be very unlikely that plans can be made to get that project off the ground this year unless the minister t a k e s i m me d i ate act i on . ~I o I·J , i 1 r . So e a k e r , my au e s t; on to the minister is this; do I understand the minister correctly that there have no negotiations so far either oralJy or in writing with the minister because the provincial government felt that the cost sharing could not be -the Province's 9hare of it could not be picked up, is that mv understanding?

And could the minister also tell me while he is commenting on that if this agreement, if this offer is negotiable or was it a final offer and if it cannot be . - if the project cannot be ~~orked out for the Lower Churchill to cut the wood on the side of the Lower Churchill could some other project be undertaken in Ne ~:found 1 and? What I am saying is there money on the Ottawa table and this Province is not ta k in ~ advantage of it. AN HO~I. 11UIBER: i·IR. PECKFORD: That is right. Mr.

Speaker, it was about two weeks that that offer was made to the provincial government, two weeks ago after a request that was made to them in June of 1977, Eight months 1 ater we qat a response to our reauest, to a s ~ ecial re qu est and the resnonse ~ as a o~o g ram ~ hic h is 604

Pa r ch 15, l!J78 Tape 208 Oll - 2 NR. PECKFORD: in place as a forestr y i mp ro ve - ment for eYer y Province of Ca nada and in no way represents a p ro ~e r response to a spe ci a l reque~t from a Provin ce. hat is nur.1ber one •. umber ~wo • he r e have ~e en talks on£ Oi ng with he Federal Govern me nt 2s it r a1ate s to this pr ogram and as it relate s to get ting Gull slar.d clearinr go · nr. . :1 u 1~· er three is t:1at ~~e - HR . i!EARY: They are waiting in 0tta"/a , "lait ' g to hear . 'Hl. PECKF:)RD: After :~o wee ks 1hen we ~aited for ei git no ths!

And -t:he point is that w ~ a e C!Oi nf! to r':!s one to ·:r . Cul l en, Itis in the orocess of ~ein - he ~i"J t ~a v~ it to d a ~ or ves~erdav an~ therefor~ ~ e are .o i ~a to - · t ras -:li scuss?.d in Ca~i r.e las 1•/eek , lona bef ore t he hon . r;~en!> er for £ur geo - LaP oile knew !~ hat it ~1as all about . And then after ou r response gets bac k to Otta wa and to lr. Cullen,then we wi ll wai t to see what hi s reaction will be to "'h"t. nur ilr.swe r is and then go on fro m there . eut \•:e re ­ sponded in two to th ree weeks as oppose d to the Fede r al Gover nment's res ponse wh ich took ei ght mont .s.

MR. NEARY: sunn le mentar y, ; r . Soeaker. have indicate d t hat I would re cogni ze ou r member "or Port au Port for a sup~le me ntarv and then t he han . m e ~b er for Burneo - Bay de Esooir. ' ' !" . H ,DER: · r . SpeaLr, this is a sur-olen ntar•.1 on the saM~ tooi c but directed at t he 1 inister of Educatio n . Generall y ~h e Depart ment of Technical and Vocational Education, that branc h of the De art~e nt of Education ,is responsi bl e for sc ~ ools such as heavy equip ment sc hool and w el d~ rs and that sort of thing . 60 5

:!arc h 15, 1978 Tape 208 01-1 - 3 '1R . HODDER: This is a

preamble to my question. Generally ~1ha t happens once you start turning out welde rs vou set a bureauc racy in olace and then when you need new skilled people ycu canno t cha~ o ! it , Now my ouestion to mi nister i s in light of the f ac t that the Lower Churc hil l is goi ng ahead,and we know that at some date it 1'1i ll go ahead, has the minist er done "nv survcvs to see what sk ills are goin g to be needed at the Lower Churc hill or institite any programs , or if there i f any pr og ram chan ges in the wind in t he vocationa l systems in thi s Province ? ' IR .

S?EAKER: ~1 R . !lOUSE: Bon . llinister of Education . "r. Speaker, the nanoo1·: er needs of the Province is usuallv dictated bv a n3npo~er nee~s committee, a federal/i) r ovinciai comnittee,and the federal. of course, gove rn ment do bey se~ts f or students fo r the trades that are re ouired in t he Prov ince . And of course in the oast number of years we have been turning out elect r icians , welders and that so rt of thin g , lines men, and now in light of this,of course. we have alr eady put on a special course for lines men in the Happy Val ley - Goose aay area, I think. So these things - 606

March 15, 1978 Tape 209 PK - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: We shifted tl1e ones at Seal Cove and Stephenville. MR. W. HOUSE: That 5.s ri~ht. MR. ROUSSEAU: Sixty in a half year,l2 " a year. MR. HOUSE: So it is about 120 per year will be turned out under that programme. But, of course, that is looked at yearly, from year to year~with the Manpower Needs Committee. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I will recognize the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir fol~~wed by the han. member for Eagle River. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation.

It relates to the Auditor General's report, I am referring to the printed document, page 31, Paragraph 53. The Auditor General points out that there was a so-called extension to a highway contract which resulted in an amount of $441,000 being paid out in contravention of the law, $441,444 being paid out to a contractor,or at least being approved for payment to a contractor, in contravention of the law.

I wonder would the minister indicate what steps have been taken to put an end to this practice of approving so-called tender extensions which in effect are in violation of the law, if steps have been taken to put an end to this practice, and if so, would he indicate what these steps are? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, as the han. member and members of the House are aware,this is a contract extension programme or a controversy, if you will, there is an ongoing one between the Auditor General and the government, both governments, the previous one and this, an ongoing difference of opinion each year. I notice that this year there is one only instance noted by the A.G. which makes me think that tremendous strides have been made in correcting what the Auditor General feels is an unwise practice.

However,the one that he does call attention to is a substantial one, and I have asked the people in the department this morning to try to brief me on it, and bring me up to date. I saw it last night as I was going through this document. As the han. member mentioned earlier,it is a relatively small Auditor General's 607

March 15, 1978 Tape 209 Pk - 2 Mr. Doody: report, and one that I think is very complimentary to this government. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: There are of course some areas of concern in here, one of which the hen. member has brought to the House's attention, one which I have brought to the attention of the senior officials in the department, and one which I hope to have a briefing on in the very near future. But as I say,obviously, Sir, steps have been taken to correct what the Auditor General feels were improper procedures, since there is only one contract extension mentioned in this year's report.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The question that I put originally was whether steps are being taken to put an end to this practice) and I can only assume from the answer that I got from the minister that no steps are being taken. AN HON.MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: in his answer. (Inaudible) . Well perhaps the minister could be more explicit What I wanted was what steps have been taken?

Or in the absence of that~is he saying that he,the new brightly polished minister is, as his predecessor, the not so polished minister, is he condoning the practice as his predecessor obviously did, this practice of - MR. DOODY: No. MR. SIMMONS: - and we are not talking, Mr. Speaker, about a contract extension. Let us be clear with the Auditor General is saying. He is talking about extensions at prices higher than those in the original contract, the act is specific on that point, and the minister can weasel all he wants, but this is not as contract extension, the Auditor General says so.

Is he condoning the practice as his predecessor has done? put an end to it? Or is he going to take some steps to 608

March 15, 1978 Tape 209 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the han. member is aware that the item to which he refers, and I think he called it to by attention by page number and paragraph, page 31, Paragraph 53, titled Cost of extension of highway contract exceeding original contract, which is indeed an extension of a highway contract, which is exactly what the question was, and exactly what the answer was.

As to what steps have been taken to put an end to that procedure; and han. me~ber is well aware that only a week or so ago in my office he and a delegation ~ame in and sat down and discussed the possibility of including as an extension of a contract which might be going on in that district in the next few days. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: And in the presence of the Deputy Minister I explained to him that this was a complete contravention of what the Auditor General wants, and we cannot possibly go along with that sort of thing. MR. SIMMONS : Why I mean - MR.

DOODY: llec11n~e it is the sort of thing that the Auditor Generalhas taken to task to try to correct.This is why I bring it to your attention now, Your Honour. The department has taken steps to correct that sort of thing, and it was pointed out to the han. member and hi~delegation only a week or so ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Misleading! Misleading! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 609 , I I

:·!a1:c:1 15, 1978 .'.1~ - 1 lB.. snm:·lS: If this is going to get i~to debate, ~~r. Speaker, we w·ould all like to [:.et into it if ~-re are 2oin~ to divulge confitleP.tial discussions,or our own version of those di&c~ssions. I ~ill advocate anytine that the Public Tender Act be: obeyed, including extensio·l1s to corLtract. . L ·,.rl_~__.~., ~0t ~ :-;.( .. ~ 't· i~._,ll the: Auditor General,: rr. 3pe:=.~er, and thP..t ts ti· .. e condone as did :lis predecessor - Jaus. to an intelli::;e:1t S~..lrk. :· ~r.

Speaker., if lle is :30in8 to con.Jone - You do not bot~1er me at all. sr:~!o:L~s : If "::e is uoinz to cor.C.one, lir .. Speaker, if 1·ua is ~oint: to condone .:1s cliJ ~1is predecessor) this busines.; Illegally . c3.. SHl'!OtlS: Illegally, uutsiue the law, $400,000? And it cannot even come under the :;uise of a contract extension. The documentation clearly 3!:-,oFs that it is not what ~ve were asking for, an extension to a contract as the Public Tender Act provides, but indeed an ~~penditure of $400,000 without any reference, :·!r. S;>eaker, to any public tender legislation ~;hatsoever. :m..

PECKFOP.D: A point of crder. ~!R. SPE~~{ER: A point of order has cone up. :r:'.. :>EC!C~O~: I think the hen. me::1ber ins tend of ?OSi~~.~ a MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. ::-r?~~ SP"'.·~2'::::R; The h::>:1. ner:be:: for Bur.~;eo - Bay d 'Es:--oir. c:R. SI~·!J.!IJNS: The han. :nenber knows more about ------- r:~:rbling on if uc 30 by '•That :1e has done :.r. this House this aft.:rnoc::1 -:;hen -.ve tried to ;;;et sor:12 concise:. ans";,;rc:rs to t.f.U2:3tions. He is second only to t~~e ::ini.;:;ter ..)f Justice t:·7b.) sits ne;:: ~..:l hir.~. 610

:~rc:"! 1.3, l97S ~:r. S?ea~~er, wy question ~vas very J very s~'e:!ifi.:. T:1e :dnister of :anes may not have understood it out t:1at is j)ar for t:"le course for him, lfr. Speaker. ::y ,.,., _.~..... ... (Inaudible) could 1 ~1.2-.ve. so!ne orUer lik:< to :,e :1eard orithout interrui?tion . : c_. sr:r.:o:.rs : I a~ not U?Set because I did not pay off a youn~ fello,~. I am not upset about chat. Do not ~isu~~e=s~and we. I an not :.:pset becaus:..! you Jid not pay off a your.:~ fellow. I .::.w. ~1ot upaet by t:~c:i:. I :1m not a bit. Order, ~lease!

I rccog:lized. the L!O:l. gentlema..; at th<= tegi::minc; to speak an the point of ocder, and now it being before the Chair it has to be disposed ai. clay and .3eauchesr.e have a uurnber of pages and chapters on questio~s anC it woulcl hardly appear to be necessary co do anythin5 now but refer to them. nut our Standin6 Order 31 (

c) summarizes very su~cinctly ,,,inat the procedure is in the 3.ouse of Assembly. "In putting auy oral questionsj no ar6ument or opil"lion is to be offered nor 3.ny facts stated except so far as i.lay be nac·:~ssary to e:(L1lair'l t:1e samej and ir. 2.LlS~·!cring a~1y suc:1 question, t''·.1e :d.nis ter is not to clebate t7lc ::J..:.':ter to "~;·:l1ich i~ !:(;fers . 11 I think in this ;Jar ticul=.r ins t3.nce, :-t.:.li I t:1in.C<. titere is a tendency in seneral to 'luestio~1 and to a;lslie:r as if th<tt Standinc; Qrder overe not operative.

And it rnay be tl1at l,on. members are thinking of usage in the Iiouse of Co=•ons; ho1vever, our Stand~u~ Order 1, is quite specific and it establishes the priority of authority in the i'!ause of Asse~:Jbly. One, the Stanlin;; Orders; 1:1·:o, t~u~ precedence:~ anC. ~,rhere neither of thes~ apply then the conteoporary ... -n.,·c-.ctice o "-: ::·~·~ ~lous;! uf Corru·~ons. ~\nd of course th; 611.

::arc'1 15, 1?73 - 3 first two uo apply, so ! 1-1ould c<J.ll :itat to c:1e at tent.i::~n of :1on . me!llbe::s to tty right and to .,~, left . I ot her ;;orcs , t:1c televis ing of t?le Qul!s t ion t'~r 1.~ i in t:1:l 'lo use of Coc;~ons hcs not tc ;;;:1 knot.:ledge :T..

Sl~.I:ONS: to t:te unla11ful practice of ?:tYi:\8 out '10'\ey , i:l tllis case contract~ Can :1e i:ldicate •..thet.her suc!1 steps have ;,een tal;en? !~a ~0:1 . :!i::!ste r of '!:'r:msr;ortc:t!.or. :a:ul :\s t inr.licate:! 1 littlt! \:hile "'!Jo, Yc·;r is ••all aware of the :act t ha t exte:1sions to contrac~s a:::-e not accepta!lle and 1o1e have tak:ln ste?s to see t!'!a;: that sort of s~~d car~ier , by the fac t that there is or~y one, albait a lerse one , GUO ted by the AC i:l his present rcport . ORDERS OF T."E DAY: :'R.

SP!L'\..1CR: It baing Privnte :!e..,i;)crs ':':ty, :'lOt!.c-r ~:o , re3 :~luticc todc:\'' 1:v! yiel d '::o so'11z " t ~er "!4!:lbe-r if '!our 'lonour wishes to reco~ize a~ot~er ccmbe r. T.'le :1on . :Oiin!ster o : ~~pouer and Industri:ll Relnticns. 612

March 15,1978 MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 211 AH-1 Before the hon. gentleman starts, it would appear to be an appropriate time,so that nobody will have to be interrupted,for the Deputy Speaker to give a ruling on a matter -~ich came up towards the closing minutes of yesterday's session. This will then be dispensed with and then the ho~. minister. DR. COLLINS: Order, please: I am sure hon. members will recall that last evening an interjection was made into a subject of debate which went unhead by the Chair and I undertook at that time to r.onsult Hansard and to indicate a decision on the point having done so.

You will also recall that the matter was raised as a point of privilege. Now hon. members may or may not always remember that the discretion of the Speaker is limited in matters of privilege much more say than on points of order. It is well established that it is the House and not the Chair which decides the substantive matter or the substantive content of privilege when raised on motion. And I would like to bring to your · attention a

section in Beauchesne. It is

Section 113 which in part reads as follows: "A question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion giving the House power to impose a reparation or apply a remedy. " Now the Speaker's role in this matter is set out succinctly in another

section of Beauchesne whic~ I would like to bring to hon. members's attention. It is in

Section 104, Subsection (5) which reads as follows:'"As a motion taken at the time" this is referring to privilege "taken at the time for matters of privilege is thereby given precedence over the prearranged programme of public business, the Speaker requires to be satisfied, both that there is a prima facie case that a breach of privilege has been committed, and also that the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity." I do not think there is any doubt in consulting Hansard that the matter was raised at the earliest opportunity, so we can 613 z

Tape No. 211 AH-2 March 15,1978 DR. COLLINS: dispose of that aspect,and we are then left with the aspect of a prima facie case. That is whether there is a clear-cut,unequivocal breach of privilege over the remark in question. Now in this regard I would refer hcnr. members to another

section of Beauchesne, Section·lll, Subsection (h), which reads as follows referring to what constitutes a breach of privilege,and Subsection (

h) of

Section 111 says as follows: "Imputations against members of corruption in the execution of their duties." At the same time it is being held to hon. member's attention, I would like to bring to their attention that part of Beauchesne that deals with order, not with privilege but with order. And this is referred to in

Section 154 and

Section 154 in part reads as follows, and I would like to emphasize that this refers in Beauchesne to order and not to privilege.

Section 154, Subsection (3) reads: "The imputation of bad motives, or motives different from those acknowledged." and

Section 155 in part reads "The imputation of false or unavowed motives." It is my opinion,therefore, having consulted Hansard that the obliqueness of the remark made by the hon. Minister of Tourism does not satisfy a reasonable

interpretation of Beauchesne

Section 111, Subsection (

h) and that therefore a prima facie case for a breach of privilege has not been established,but that the remark does fall within an

interpretation of the other two sections of Beauchesne which I have alluded to in that it was therefore unparliamentary and out of order and should be withdrawn in large terms. 614

, ...._. Harch 15, 1978 Tape 212 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not too clear as to ~mat I am to withdraw. The statement made,if it is in Hansard - I did not check Hansard- was a question put across the House by this han. gentleman to an hon. gentleman then speaking, who is the member for LaPoile, And the question was 1vho paid his trip to New York City? If that is derogatory, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the question again sometime when I am speaking in debate, but surely in asking a member a question of that nature it is not derogatory. SOME RON, ~firurnERS: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! So, Mr.

Speaker - Order, please! My understanding is that the han. minister is asking for information on the remark in question, that is the remark that I have ruled was unparliamentary. And I think that is a legitimate question and I would have to point out to him that the remark I referred to is stated in two places in the extract from Hansard. tfuen the hon. member for LaPoile was referrin~ to the possible sale of the oil refinery as opposed to perhaps returning it to its original owners, the Hansard reads, ·~r. MOrgan: Now we know who paid your way to" and further down, ''Mr.

Morgan: I know who paid your way to New York." And the ruling of the Chair is that in the context these can fall under the two sections I referred to, that is the imputation of bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged and imputations of false or unavowed motives, and as the ruling was that they do fall under those two sections, they are out of order as being unparliamentary and the han. minister is requested to withdraw them in large terms. HR. MORGAN: the - SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: to explain. SQ}!E RON , MEHBERS : Mr. Speaker, if I have to withdraw Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, if I am given a chance Oh, oh! 615

Harch 15, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. }!ORGAN: MR. SPEAKER : Tape 212 EC - 2 Order, please! Will you give me a chance to explain? Order, please! The Chair has only a very narrow function here and that is to make a decision and make a ruling. If that ruling is to be in questjon there is a mechanism for doing it, but I am afraid that the Chair just has to give the decision and expect a response. !1R. }!ORGAN : Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the statement that I kno'~ who paid for his trip to New York, but I will rephrase it by saying I asked a question, Who paid his trip to New York? SOME RON. MEI1BERS : Oh, oh! MR.

MORGAN: I withdrew the statement. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the hon. minister has acceded to the ruling made and I now will call upon the next speaker in the debate. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Industrial Relations. MR. HORGAN: Rear, hear! The hon. Minister of Manpower and The question is still in the air, brother, still in the air, and I will get the answer to the question too. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: disclose it in the House as 'Jell. MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! You are right, I will get it. I will What about the helicopter that brought the minister down to his lounge? Get the answer to that,too. MR..

SPEAKER: Industrial Relations. MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hon. Minister of Manpower and If you are unparliamentary, you are unparliamentary and you just withdraw, eh? MR. MORGAN: How about Panama? AN RON. MEMBER: The Speaker is running this Rouse. MR • MORGA.": How about Panama? 1-.'ho paid for down there? 616 (!

~!.arch 15, 1978 MR . NEARY : MR . SPEAKER: MR . NEARY : Tape 212 EC - 3 A point of order, !r. Spe.ake r, A point of order. I 1~ould like to draw to your attent~on that the hon. gentleman again, Sir, has ~nsist ed on being unparliamentary and I ·~ould like Your Hono ur to discipline the hon, gentleman. I am asking f or the protectio n o f t he Chair . Withd r aw these innuendoes, these insinuations, tr. Spe aker. AN RON • ME!-!B£R: Sit down, boy! HR . SPEAKER: Order, please! I think t hi s point can be dispose d of.

I 1vas not aware that any member other than the hon. }!inis ter of tanpower and I ndustrial Relations was standing in his place and therefore I am not aware of any point o f order that came up in this regard . MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. MORGAN: We w:l.ll get the answer to i,t. MR. ROUSSEAU: and the way of the Rouse The hon. mini ster . The hon. minister is trying to. ~e will get the answer to it, boy . Fir-st of a11, having as is the courtesy 617

Lcre ue got forty-five sinutes each) all~ if w·e f_;et it t!:rougit we mig~!t even uake it !Jefore six o'clock.. 2oor little ·~~er'. t.:Jclay, 'II.oger'? ",!earing your l1.igl1-heeled sl~ves today? !!:inister :;,_.:; ~Having difficulty :i. .. t ~:lakiaJ ~1is rznarks 2.t11.l I uocld 2.ak ~!on. ~terabers to give :1im ::llc courtesy of listen.i:rJ.g tv ili::-l. :-;.c:atious. :rrt. ?~OliSS3_-\U; ~rr. Spe.:1ker, first of all as is t:le cour~esy ~1f t:u.:! .o.ious~ of course, this is lil}' first vccas:L.on tc ri::;e tc L!LJ ~-:ill p::o-vidc t:1e .s:::.me ~ligh expertise that the raember ::or Ferryland (llr.

Po,.;er) offered before, and that the :n.ember for 1\villingate (l1r. \'1 .~T. Rowe) offered before a:,d I am sure t!le meml:<er for St. John's ~lest (llr. Kitchen) 1 all previous members who sat iwmediately prior to their sitting. I "ould like to take this opportunity to 1velcome them to the House. I would also like to say, l!r. Speoker, tl1c:.t it is il very nice thing to be e!::le tu st:md up and speak to a ::esclutiun on Labrador. I ti1ink i.t si.1oulC. be nctedJ .:a;.d I one cf ::;n~at i~port::mce by my friend and colleague from Naskaupi (:cr.

Goudie) that t:1e ::ouiie of Asseobly Act of 1974 to esta~lis":: a broader and !.lore equitable represe::J.tation in Labrador be lool;:ed at. I t~~ these are two very important items L> respect to the Labrador, 618 .. ..

' 7'T ~2rc:1 15, 1973 Tape .lo. 213 :iR. ROUSSEAU: I believe, if I am not incorrect, :~r. Speal ... er, that Curing the past five years that I h:tve been a m.ember of the House, since 1972, that I believe there has been at least one,and possibly two in some sessions, major resolutions in res:_:Ject to Labratlor. I think that is a very 3,00d thino. I t~1ir:k t~.:.at all hon. J:.eu.~bt:r~ of thi.:J -I·.:·t..:.se~ an~ all past han.

Eembers o£ the House probably uith t1jJenty-t•·renty IIi:1dsig:1t. could feel that pe.ri.alJS the isolation a!!C nezlec.t: tL.:::.t the ~':~ople in L2.brador have felt, :s have people in otl1er areas of the Province, have not been unfounded. At least the opportunity to hear the views of t:1e people o~ Labrador, throueL1 t:1ei::: <olected representatives, is somethinz I think that will lessen the frustration and the feelings that the people :nve. Of CO~l:"Se that is anly half the story.

Action also has to be tfl.ken as •,.;ell as tl1e ability of bri:ngin~ th~ir prableii'.s to the attention of ~:liS hi2;hest court in the land, t'1at somethin~ bP. done to rectify t.he111. I think also, Hr. Spea~er, in the five years since I have been here, the members _,·ho have represented Labrador, Hr. Joe Ilarvey, and Hr. Hike !·~rtin, and c•{r. 11el vin ~loodward, and the now sitting members, the han. member for Eagle River (:"fr. Strachan), the hon. neaber for the Straits of :J~ll= Isle O!r. E. Roberts), and my colleague from Nask.aupi (:lr.

Goudie), and n:yself a ave tal:er:. the opportunity ''here ;:>ossible tc :;p,~al: on behalf of La~rador. that I rr.ade .:1 contributio~, as I l::.r...c-r,r tl1e otl-r.=r han. :D.~mbers, both past and present have done, and have done so at time with a v.:;henence t!1at ~)eotJl8 may question. I h.:.vc assureG. ti.1t..: ~-!c\..G.3 before n.nd I can assure it nm.;, and I a!!l sure I assure it on beh.'llf of the four people w:10 represent Labrador, that the vehemence 619 ..

~ch 1.5 , 1978 TaiJe No. 213 - 3 lm.. :>.0USSZAU: is only the echo of •~hat •ve feel in Labrador to bring to this l1o~. :rouse of Assenbly. Before speakin~ to the actual resolution, and I am sor~; the han. Leader of the 0!lfOSition :1as left :1is seat, ~e pro~a.1lly is i.,_,_ r.::te confines a:u.d can hear ·:i:.1a.~ I a:-~1 t;oi..J.g to say, I a;n :1.0t g·:>inz to iJr.:>pose .an amend-:1~nt call t:.1~;il? - tha recitals 'Je looked at bet-.. een t!le t..-o ilouse Le~de.rs, and I lu;.ve alraady IJentio1~ecl it to t~1e ]oust.!

Leade:1· of t::te Cppositioa aad our :ic11se L.:ade;r, to get togetl,cr bec.:J.use and rig!ltfully so. r1a :1on. Leaci.er of the Qpposition in ir.t::oducin6 t:1e resolutioa inJ.icated that it ahould ~e a nonpartisan resolution a:u.ci. I agree fully that it should be a nonpartisan resolution <L'-d 620 l a· '·· .

::~rch 15, 1978 _; ;~ - l :-JR. ROUSSllU: Assembly convened a<;r:!ein.g to a resolution of t:·lis r.ature :-;auld be =re in the better interest of Labrador t.ha7~ :cr it to reaJ a~ :.:: 2oes in the recital. 3o I ~-.ave asLed. the House Leader on the other side, tho Opposition, and our :louse Leader to get together and attempt to come :.t? ~·Iith some p:1rase that -:'loulcl make t~e resolution a nonpartiSan resolution, a.s sur:;~csted lly the ~1on. Leader of the ~Jr.pcsition t\1hen it uas i:1trcduced. t:u1t as far as the resolution is concerned gover=ent does Su?~ort the resolution itself. MR. SIMMONS: }3..

ROUS3ZAU: What is the problem? ~.Jell there are some tP-=!!1'3 in t:lca:::e that Assei'l!..ll: ... -, toJ;etller O!.!. this rec.itc..l migl.!.t be e.. better u~a~e o£ c.2r...:s t:1an eit:1er or both political <'artics since it is to :Je Hh~t tL!e han. Leader of th~ Opposition suggests, a non- partisan resolution. So '"e for our part do support the resolution =:i I am not, as I say, making an amendmeo:1t to the resolution but asking that both Rouse Leaders ::;et together and probably coma up with a recital that might be more appropri.e.te and oore acceptable to both sides of t:1e Rouse of .\s se!nbly. :-.R. H .ll.

Rrl~E; If the l1on. cinist .. ~r -:·10'..:.1,.:. not ~ir:d yieldinci for a seconJ to a (!Uesti~n, :·rr. S_pe2.ke.r. I \•··auld ~1.:.J.',"2 this \Th."lt the hon. zcntleman i~ uorrietl about, ::~\et"the : ::L ROUS3TIAU: Th~ second paresraph. :-!ational Convention of the Lioer.e.l Party , fror.~ l·rhicJ. the Federal C'.overnment of Canada is no'' famed;' -Joes that bother him? It makes it partisan ? 621.

::arc:: 15, 1978 Tape ~~o. 214 l'R. J.OUSSC:AU; 'lell the hon. member said t11at it ;;;;10uld not bl~ .:t partisan action. \Je agree with the resolution. ~lould he not c:.gree that the Fed.er~l Goverr~er.:.t of Canada does happen to be formed, throuzh no fault or credit of r1y mm, from the Liberal Party of Canada~ The point I ".Jas tryino; to ma:,e, l:r.

Speaker, uhich I should inpress u;:>on the ~1on. !liuister j is that the Goverr.Iil3t:t of Canada, wh:!.ch is for.:I!ed out of the Liberal Party, has been instructed by the Party out of v:hicl1 it is for.:ted at a r~cent convention, un-::!:ti~ously instruct-=d by the 'l!.eubership at t'J.:-.t Liberal convention, to support th:!.s resolution on the federal level.

Now it is not my fault:or I cannot take any credit either for the Federal Gc·J-=rr.-;:ent of Canada being fo~ed out of the Liberal Party, but it is a fact of life that the hon. lllinister :nay have to live ·,1ith, after the ne::t ~lection as uell 2.s before. If it he, you l:ncu,the !'!OVc:: ancl ·the :;eco~dc::- no concern to me - or th~ t;;o ~!ou~~ Leaders!' but I c::ink the;' should set together.

He feel for our part the :-:esolution is not - the resolution is, let us put it in a ;Jositive Hay, the resoluti0n is the ;;overn:nent 1 s position on Labrador, you know, so ue feel thct the t~·;o J:ouse Leaders, the mover and seconder and so Gn- I <l.r.l :;;iving the ;;overnrnent 1 s position on this, that we suprort the resolution- we •·•ruld like for t~e mover a.."ld the secou.cler, or the a;c :~ouse !..eRders or o:1h:nt h:!.ve you, ~a get to~ether and ?rob ably ~2k~ it ;1cr~ !3..ppro?ri::J.te or ~ore. acce:;)t&Jle to the T1oc.se of Asse:'Jbl::r si.:-!ce it is to be, in the han. t::e ~:;a.der of t~1e C"lpl~ositicn' s .. :o:.-.. :'ts: c. =.-2:_1 · ''"'· :::r:;r:o:;s. ~r..

TI.CUSSEAU: Ar·~•ay, to go to the resolution itself, :rr. 3peal~er, ';.Jit:l t!1ose few· introductory cormuents, these are resolutions of course that o~.a ~·lould lil:2 to be .:J.~)~~~ t:o do L-:-tJ.ediately. 622 r.

- l .la . :\Cr:;:;:;~ .. \U: Thera ara l ona, t l!r""...t ;>!w!,u; :tc~tZ , ~~e !\l-;:g ter~J :>.:.atlS in k~ev:L-.s, -:,:it::1 t:te ~over:oent 's ~lO?C!-S for ~a~r~do-: . t =·r:.n~; it :::1ings :a3.v~ :ta~)i>C ~e~ in LaOrildor eo ~rins it i:tco : !!~ :.laiustr.!.:ao. I : ;11~ t!1at ~O;;Jl:! ::.o:.> d:> :wt :eel t~\c. a;;;ou::u: of isol:u :io:: c!1n~ -ss once ~c.lc i :t r~specc to Li:lbr::.C::>r. ~.

Ls:::raJor :1as come racently, a!lou t a ;rt::ar anC:: :1 hal.E ago , I beli.lVe, ~ll:cm the not~ :!iniste:: rJf JUstic::~ an:i t::..; A::to":t:c.y Cene ra! ~nd ::r.c :tir izt:c .r vf ~i::c:tce ·tas tht! ::ir.!.ste s: of I:::er~overncao:al .;! ~airs c.:1d ·:e. sidlad ·.;t-.ct <;."3S t:~e first u:l.:l: ssree::~ent fo r Labt:acio r , :.,as a very, very JOO.,..ins ::tin~ fo:: t~e people of L:~b~ador as we bad been shut off from t hat :;ou r ce c.f .:u.~.is f,:,r su::te ti::lle. As :me con readily ep?reciate . :he ccs: of e:l!

H:t~cL~g li7os :)f c:.e ?Co;,lo .J .. n Labr.:.ci:or -~d. th~ cc !.: ..>~ :!av~lop::en t is a 1-::.~~~ one .J.nd one t~a t ~ eveo c:tough t ~c. 623

March 15, 1978 Tape 215 EC - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: would like to move faster on is probably beyond the economic competence of government, some of the larger developments. So the DREF. agreement that we signed,and the recently signed subsidiary agreement on DREE consisting of some projects for coastal Labrador, I think it is a step in the right direction in response to the needs of the people of Labrador. And I have no hesitation at all in praising this development. We worked a long time for it. The answer always was that, you kn01v, What does Labrador West need with a DREE grant?

And I think the people in Labrador West have as much right to DREE money as anybody else in this Province or anybody else in this country. I remember specifically the agreement that was signed. }lost of the projects went to the Eastern part of Labrador and rightfully so. We had one development over in Hestern Labrador which Nr. Lessard, the then minister and now minister, when he signed i~, called Rousseau's Dream, which was the industrial park in Western Labrador. I think this is a big item toward development in Labrador.

The problem has been brought to public notice many times in the recent past of the fact that most of the service industry has been generated South of Newfoundland Labrador.or the Labrador part of the Province, in Quebec, in the Seven Islands area especially - it has been a growing and booming town and this development, of course, will enable service industry to develop in Labrador. Now I am not one who has ever subscribed to the principle of numbers created by direct jobs - the multiplier effect. I do not know what they argue here. You hear there are three and one-half or four for every job.

I would not venture a guess as to what number there are, but certainly there are significant numbers of people who could be employed in the service industry because of a primary industry like the mining industry in Western Labrador, the mines at Wabush and the mines at the Iron Ore Company of Canada in Labrador City. So we hope that this will be a big move in the development of Labrador and the development of a secondary G24

~larch 15, 1978 Tape 215 EC - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: service industry for Labrador. Of course, involved with that as well it is very difficult to build up a service industry without having the housing to accompany that. l~e had built , I think it was in the mid 1960's, some fourteen or fifteen Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units. That has been a big difficulty in the development of Labrador; people went into Labrador - of course l<lestern Labrador I am referring to now specifically - and had very great difficulty in procuring housing. They still do to some extent.

And they were paying astronomical prices for basement apartments - $250/$300 1-1as pretty good. You hit $300/$350/$400, I would assume, in certain instances for a basement apartment - one of the reasons why I always say that the census in Labrador is never correct, because these people do not want to go on the census list because they are living in places that if fire commissioners knew about it they would probably condemn it as being unsafe because of living in basements. So instead of the 12,000 cr 14,000 people they say that we have, I think it is more like 16,000 to 17,000 people or maybe more.

But of course ~hat is a point that we hope will be rectified. We have 141 houses now nearing completion. Some of them have been occupied in Labrador City - Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units - and these are excellent. They enable people who would not otherwise be able to procure housing to get housing. These are the people who go in looking for jobs not at the mines,where the money is big, but people who work in other aspects of the industries associated with the towns. I have never had the opportunity to move into a home.

These are done, of course, in the same way that any Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing unit across the Province is done. There is a point system and the people who score the highest in respect of needs and salary and so on and so forth procure these houses. Also we have in Wabush a lot development - as yet there are no housing units on that - a lot development of something like 270 lots. And this, you know, took a long time in ~oming. I started with it in 1972. It did not come to fruition until the past year or year and a half. There was a lot of blood, sweat, toil and tears went 625

March 15, 1978 Tape 215 EC - 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: in on the part of a lot of people between then and now. Of course, the difficulty originally was that there was no land 626 ' I

March 15, 1978 Tape 216 JM- 1 MR., ROUSSEAU: up there available for individual occupancy and the companies did give over some land to the government which they utilized in this way. So I think coupled with this housing development in Labrador City, the lot development in Wabush and the industrial park now in Wabush,which will serve Labrador City and Wabush,is one in which government has attempted to provide a secondary industry in this town.

Of course you always have the problem in Western Labrador where both towns depend on only one industry, the mining industry of the Iron Ore Company of Canada or at Wabush ~lines,and the people are naturally worried, And any secondary industry that will take time to build up of course is welcome from the psychological point of view that at least there are other things there, not nearly to the extent that the mining industry now controls the area,but there are other options for people to work in the area and unfortunately not at the same salaries that they are receiving at the mines.

So I say now that the agreement that was signed with DREE, the original agreement which I think was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $13 million or $14 million,- provided for the Goose Bay Development Corporation funding as well so that the people in Eastern Labrador could hire full-time people and could look at their needs over there and suggest in future what should be included in DREE contracts and other projects in Eastern Labrador. The industrial park in Western Labrador was one that was welcomed by the people of Labrador.

The new subsidiary agreement that was signed involving a number of projects on the Southern part and part of the Northern part of Coastal Labrador is a welcome thing. This,of course, will I hope increase in a number of subsidy agreements. I know there is one very important item that is mentioned in the resolution that is supported by government and I know that as a matter of policy on behalf of government that government feels there should be a highway across Labrador, The costs of course are quite extensive. I remember 627

~·!arch 15, 1978 Tape 216 JM- 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: a few years ago when we were talking to Quebec on the possibility of jointly going to the Federal Government in respect to a Trans-Labrador highway going from Seven Islands up around and down through to Blane-Sablan and across into the Northern Peninsula. The cost then was something like $520 million and that was three years ago. So the cost now would probably be up in the $700 million or $800 million bracket. Of course the big problem with the whole situation now is the connection between Labrador City, Wabush and Esker.

Esker? as bon. members know,is a railhead and the people from Goose Bay­ Happy Valley,while not over good road,can reach Esker in the summertime. In the wintertime of course it is very difficult,and at times in the spring and fall it is even more difficult to reach that area 1 but they have that outlet. What we need now undoubtedly is the connection between Labrador City-Wabush to Esker to give the people in Western Labrador access by road to the railhead. I think that would go far in alleviating many of the frustrations people feel in driving home for the summer.

I think it is fair to say nowadays that a lot more people than when I first went to Labrador in 1962 in the Western part of Labrador feel that Labrador is their heme. But still there are an awful lot and a greater majority who do not feel that Labrador or Western Labrador is their home and they still refer to home as the Island part of the Province, I think that these people should be given an opportunity to be able to reach their Island home,if that is the way they want to refer to it,through their own province. It is very difficult.

I remember when I used to have to drive down and you would hit Seven Islands and you would breathe a heavy sigh of relief when you hit Campbellton. At least you felt a little closer when you were in Atlantic Canada to being home than you did when you were in Quebec. So I would hope that subsequent DREE agreements will provide for the connection of the Labrador City-Wabush area to Esker and the upgrading of the road right through to the Goose Bay-Happy Valley 628

}laTch 15, 1978 Tap e No. 216 JM- 3 ~. ROUSSEAU: area. That of coune would enable people to get out without going through another province, I know that initial talks have been held wtth DREE and I would hope that DREE would consider this to be a priority item. It would certainly go far in developing the Labrador insofar as this provillce is concerned aud indeed insofar as Canada is co"Q.cerned and would open it up to illuch more development. Now in opening it up to development of course the people of Labrador do not always like to see everybody come in with a pick aud shovel.

There has to b.e some developmental strategy or policy in respect to its development and I think that the people of c·ourse who must be coQ.sulted on this development or proposed developlll@t or policy in respect to the lon.g.•rauge, me.dium-term and short-term development of Labrador are the people in Labrador the11110.elves. These are the peOple obviously who have 629

March 15, 1978 Tape 217 IB-1 MR. ROUSSEAU: to live with the repercussions of the development. I remember· a development in 1962 when I landed on August 16, 1962 in the middle of Wabush and I said, "Where is the town", and somebody said, "You are standing in the middle of it", and life was pretty disruptive for a period of time. In those days I remember truck drivers, you know, driving ten, twelve hours, four or five hours sleep, back to work for eight or ten hours.

All of the sudden the shock comes when people who had been working sixteen to eighteen to twenty hours a day, seven days a week,making good money, sending it back, by the way, to the Island part of the Province or to the other parts of Labrador~having to get used to the idea of forty hours a week,which is a very difficult thing, a very difficult adjustment for people to make.

So we have to be very careful in the development of Labrador and that we do not do too much too fast, that we do not have the boom and bust situation, that people are brought up slowly, their expectations are brought up slowly in the development arid they are let down slowly so that they can associate themselves in a very meaningful way with the development. My friend from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) has just reminded me of my days in school when he put up his hand and said, "May I go for a cup of coffee? Do you mind?" No, Sir. I am sure you can hear what I am going to say anyway.

But it is very important that these people be consulted. I think the Labrador Advisory Resources Council which includes a representative from Western Labrador is one vehicle. There are a number of other vehicles up there. I think obviously that there has to be a number of government persons or a government presence in Labrador. This has been long sought after.

People in Labrador feel,whether rightfully or wrongfully, the only time that this happens is when somebody wants to gouge some money out of them for one thing or another, tax money of various kinds, and they would like to feel the presence of people in Labrador always, primarily people who understand and appreciate and have some 630 , I I

. .) March 15, 1978 Tape 217 IB-2 MR. ROUSSEAU: feeling for what these people are going through. The question of government service and government presence is now being rectified I think in the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area in that we are using what was the Paddon Hospital to provide a government center in the Labrador East area and the Happy Valley- Goose Bay area. I have had some personal thoughts on that, whether it should be in Western Labrador,because I naturally have a bias, or whether it should be in Eastern Labrador.

The main thing,number one,is that it is in Labrador and that there will be a center established in Labrador concerning the various departments . There are a number of individual items I think. We are talking about a policy statement now where we could talk about the Department of Transportation and Communications to provide licenses and that sort of thing. I do not think that is in keeping with the spirit of this particular resolution but that can be a topic for another time in this House of Assembly.

But I think that the presence that they will feel on the Coast of Labrador and in Eastern Labrador in particular,and I hope in Western Labrador, will be one that will make the people -l feel at least the government is a little closer to them than way off in St. John's. I think the appointment of an individual up there to oversee the Labrador Services Division is something that I hope will work out. We have had that happen in the past. It has worked out as well in the past as we would have hoped for it to have worked out.

I would hope that with twenty-twenty hindsight and with past experience we can learn from the mistakes of the past and hope that these people will provide the kind of service that the people in Labrador need especially. And remember, as we have said so many times in this House, there are many Labradors, there is not one Labrador. There is Western Labrador,which is a world apart. There is the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area. There is Northwest River, Mud Lake. MR. STRACHAN: The Northern Coast. 631

March 15 , 197-8 Tape 217 IB-3. ~!R. ROUSSEAU: The n til ere is t:h.e Northern Coast of Labrador, my bon. friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) says, the Indian and Eskimo people and the settlers up there. There is the Northern Coast of Southern Lahrador which I think tends more tmvards the Goose Bay- Happy Valley radius. And then there .is the Southern Coast, the Southern part of the South.ern Coast of Labrador,which I think generates more towards the Great Northern Peninsula. So we are not talking about one Labrador.

We are talking about four, five, six Labradors, different people, different feelings, different needs, different expectations. It is not a very simple thing to mold a policy in such a way as to please all the people in Labrador. I must say one thing that I was very pleased with is that we were able to come to an agreement that I hope is satisfactory 632 • !, f ·;

.:arch 15, 1978 Tape :;o. 218 :.!R. I',OUSSEATJ: to the natives of La!:lrador in respect to hunti:1g. And that is to t:1eir traditional <,lay of life. I hope t!1at they l!leet Hith success in it and it l.S nice to see that the other ;>eople in this Province hc:1ve said~ 11 If they ~et it, ,,.rhy can· He not have. it? 11 And that people have reco3nizetl that ti1ese people have .:1 special :.1eed in this 3.:rea, they have a special desire, special -3:~pect2.tiow.

s) and tl13.t is the Tiay t:tey -:·:r2.nt to live and ~·1l1o ":le are to say~ "~1o, you 2.re ~oing to li·1e au!: \•Jay an<.1 \.Je are zoing to do this far you and that for you." I think the consultation process and sitting c!O\·Tn and arguing,because both sides never sit Uo\•m at a table anci. a::;ree on t:1e objectives and priorities they need,and hope to cone t'J some campro:nise that gover!l.c<lent ca:1 live with it, that the people who e.re affected can live with it, is one I think that is very important. processin::; »ithin Labrador of the ra1> naterials that are produced in Labrador.

I t\1ink this is an issue that has to be faced squarely, t:1at nobody. in Lab~ador is saying, "~ve ~ra.nt it and the Island

part cf the Province does not 3et any of it." That is not,- I rlo not think, the feelin3 of people in Labrador. Jut the feelin3 is that it is their resource.

And the people who have gone to Labrador,you know, are a funny breed, at least the people ~~ho "ent very earl:< in the clays in Bastern Labrador and the people 1<;1o •rere there forever, I guess, as far as history is concerned, .1nd the peo?le in ~·J-aster-:1. :C.G.~)r<'.dor '.;ho were later cor.1ers than thE:o people ''ho livced on t!w Co:J.st ')f :, .... _brador aad tl"~e people who ~vent up in the Island ~~~i:'t of t::1e ?r(,vince to fish in t:1e early clays, feel t11~t it is their Lu.b;:G.dor. ~lo·,;r I cannot stand up, having resided in Labrador since 1962,and say with the same force of conviction that it is my Labrador as much as the person who has been there for 633

; :.:;rch 15, 1978 :'ape 215 2 :JR. ROUSSEAU: hunc'!reds of years, but I like to feel myself that I feel as nuch a part of Labrador as they uo. Yo-.! ~o1V to their seniority. You boc7 to their great sense of adventure.

But when t!1ese people r,rent up they went through '!all on earth, And do you know sometimes when we stop and think :!0o:.lt 1927 and that great decision in which Labrador became .part IslenU ~:art o:i: t!1e I'rovince ~vl!o r.:ent up and faceU the situation, and those pE:ci lc ~i:1c livzd in Labrador, and who U2velaped it~ hat .. :cver primitively :!.1: tl~at ti;.:e, t:1.:.c is this great land of which we are all proud• I t:linl' the Island people are proud of Labrador being a part of the Proviuce. You should never say the Island O'..;ns Labrador, of course I thi~~k 1ve have that or~e out of the. r.iay.

I heard something, by the way: my reading, and I only have one reading, a;1d I ~m sure the :1on. ~ml>er for :·ias:~<J.upi (::r. Goudie) ancl the han. ::Jember for the Straits of llelle Isle (:!r. Roberts) and t:1e other han. meubers who stand wi.ll have an opinion, I do not :-:now ~:1ether it concurs uit:.._ ::tine or not, but I do not think Labrador ~~ill ever go •,:ith Quebec.

And t!1at is a i?ersor.al fedi:1g I have:·and it is not from my read-back, and I do not think t:h:lt is one of the alternatives that the pearl: of LabraC.or Hould accept. ~·/nat I:J.ay happen ir t11e future I do not :;nmv but I do not thir.k tl1at joini.-:r; ".i'ith Quebec is one of t:1e ~1 ~e!:':1atives that t:12 ~·eople of Labrador generally woul:.! accept. :Jut I t~1in~: it .is very i:nportant to ens:.~rc t:l.:lt ~2br~dor ~:2:11:in a part of this Province and the ·w-ay ::a do it is to :naka Labrador feel that ~:-iey are p~rt of the Province and one of it is to let them feel some of t:1e benefits of the resources we have in Labrador.

Do not forget, by the l{ay, a lot of people forget ti1at one of the tireatest resources of Labrador are its people. I am sure ~any of us 634

.!ar::. 13, 197fl - J ; ::R. O:OlJSSEA!;: in t ~lis Uouse of Asseo:bl y, and many eo~la on t:1e Isl and c.:!.rt of :he Pt"ovince, .J.::!Ve visited , fo :: e ::a ople ~ t; e Coa s t- of L.2bt'.:>.t.or. r.: ~s~ are ~1z :: dy j)-20j·l e , one of our srea .tes t ::es ou rces. Anc if t: ~ey wer2 not like they ••ere, •. r . Spe..:!.ker, I do not t h in k t:ta t we r.rol!l.d i)ave an: ;;et:tlenent i Lebtad.:l r . • ;w ,le lL.e t':l.e hon . !:'.er<l:-er fo r : 1~1skaupi 1 s f ore f ath ers, ? eo;:>le to iozve ziveo to Cain . It is a ba rren anr:l b leak land in t e li.n tett ~ ilut .a be::u t i ful l<!od .

It is a t:e:mt iiul la·.'.<i in. of i t . ~li s i s ~>l •Y I t>as so ,1lea s ed 1 as the people I hope in t at>r ;;.dor .East a nd indeed tite !='E'.O"· le c f (;;tis ?rov L'lca were,with :.ui!. i :ilZ of the trnns::nissi n line f ~om t.!le C 11Jrchill Fall $ co c;-..12 635

March 15, 1978 Tape 219 IB-1 MR. ROUSSEAU: that was long overdue in coming. This is the sort of thing that alienates the people in Labrador, that they do not share in their own resources. I think it is explicit and a part of government policy,whatever government it may be,because whatever happens there is going to be a long term development. There can be a lot of things done in the meantime. The raw materials from Labrador will have to be utilized first in Labrador,and I do not say'Labrador first trying to suggest that we break up this Province. Labrador is part of this Province.

Newfoundland is a part of this Province. But they have been in their opinions maligned and short-changed so often the time has come now when they need to run to catch up,and to run means that they share in the benefits associated with any development in Labrador including the construction of any hydro-electric projects in Labrador, any mining or anything of that resource based nature.

But still the people in Labrador still want the land to hunt on and the land to fish on and somehow we•have to rationalize the development from a resource point of view in Labrador with the style of life that the people in Labrador are used to. I say to you, Mr.

Speaker, and to the hon. members of this House that the people in Western Labrador,who are not often looked upon as the hunters and the fishermen that the people in the other parts of Labrador have been, they I guess look at it more from a point of living than we do from a point of enjoyment,but they are as hardy and as anxious hunters and fishermen as the people anywhere in this Province and anywhere in other parts of this country and continent. They want to see that maintained. They do not want to see the rivers contaminated with the materials of the mining towns.

They do not want to see their open areas contaminated across Labrador. They want to ensure that, as I say, vast t~~cts of land are kept for that type of life,for the enjoyment of the social, psychological benefits of life as well as for the development of the natural resources in Labrador. 636

March 15, 1978 Tape 219 IB-2 MR. ROUSSEAU: Of course the question of Port Labrador and the question of, f guess, a circle eninating from the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area is one that is acceptable, and I have to say acceptable because, you know, I would like to think that Western Labrador can provide that, out unfortunately it is not in the geographic position to do so.

As I understand it,a few years ago that they were looking at the construction of ice break ers that could pretty well keep those ports in the Arctic open for twelve months of the year, that the development of oil and gas, the development of hydro-electric power, the continuation of the fishery in the Labrador and other aspects of our resource development would make it a pivotal area in Eastern Canada and would secure for it the hope that the federal government might see fit that one of these twelve month icebreakers. might be able to keep a port open and to make it an all-weather, all-year port.

I think which would greatly enhance the chances of development of Labrador. The Western part of Labrador, the railway is there. The Eastern part of Labrador has pretty well nothing for six to eight months of the year,depending on the season. It might be, I think, generally around the middle of June until the first of November, somewhere in that area. It could be the first of July in a given year.

People can never count on it and it is a very difficult thing from a financial point of view for people to have to do so much in such a short of period of time and to have to provide for the wares of the long and torturous Winter from November until April or May, to do it all in that very short period of time. I thin! : that is one of the : re.atcst proble!;.S t~at ~ · e ~~ V P in Labrador, and I think it is fair to say, Mr. Speaker, that we do share some problems in Western Labrador as they share in Central Labrador as they share in Eastern Labrador and as they share on the Coast. Not in the same way maybe, Mr.

Speaker,but the same basic problems. And one of the most important is transportation. Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that every time an airline wants to get a fe <l r.~ or e dollars t hey put the s"!-,aft to the ?eoplc of Labrador. 637 ' 'I

March 15, 1978 Tape No. 220 RT-1 MR. ROUSSEAU: It is a very difficult thing to live with, Mr. Speaker, because I have said in this House of Assembly on a number of occasions that people should not just look at dollar values. You have to remember, as I indicated a few minutes ago, that people like to come home during their vacation from western Labrador. In order to come home it takes a family of three people and a husband and wife perhaps up to $1,000 just to get home. Now, Mr. Speaker, to look at that as $1,000 is incorrect and erroneous. AN RON. MEMBER: I suppose it is cheaper to come from Toronto. MR.

ROUSSEAU: It is cheaper to go from St. John's to Montreal than it is to go from St. John's to Labrador City/Wabush and through Goose Bay/Happy Valley. But, ~x. Speaker, the point you have to remember is that these people have gone up, on their own,by the way ~~ey wanted to do it, nobody pushed th~m, and they made a life for themselves when it was not as easy on the Island part of the Province to get a job, they went up and did their work in developing Labrador for this Province.

They had to have at least take-home pav of $1,500, maybe up to $2,000 of take-home p~v to net the money to get them back to the Island part of the Province in the summertime. And look, Newfs are Newfs! In the area that I live in, I speak to you now of, Mr. Speaker, the western part of Labrador, a lot of people still feel they want to come home for the holidays. They want to come home and visit their aunts and uncles, their mothers and fathers, their brothers and sisters, their nieces and nephews - AN RON. MEMBER: And get some cod. MR. ROUSSEAU: - and get some cod.

I think EPA could make a good profit on shipping the cod back and forth. But is appears that, bango! t'he fares go. We have the airport tax; we do not have an airport. We have to pay these astronomical amounts to get back and forth. It is unbelievable. 638

March 15, 1978 Tape No. 220 RT-2 NR. ROUSSEAU: The other day I was up and I had a very good meeting, I would like to think it was, with the people in Sheafferville who are Newfs. They feel like they live in a foreign country. They feel an alienation towards the Island part of the Province. Luckily, through the media, their problems have come to light, and ~ went up and met with them. The people up there, by the way, tell me a very funny thing. They say, "We have no quarrel with the people here f;rom Quebec". They live very well side by side.

But what they want is a little more of Newfoundland in their area, and we hope to be able to do that for them, to make life a little more Newfoundlandese. We have already instituted a few things, and I am sure my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy, could give you some indication of the iron ore deposits up there that belong to this Province which ensure scores of years of production in the iron - AN HON. HEMl!ER: Give it eighty. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, give it eighty years. These people feel a need to travel back and forth within their own Province and the costs are, as I say, astronomical.

Now, we are told, they are going to increase them again. And, Mr. Speaker, in five years I th.ink one of the biggest files, the second biggest file - the biggest file is on the pensions for the Goose Bay people, that was a pretty big file - is wiring or writing on behalf of Government in many instances to the CTC or the Minister of Transport and just getting no response to the individual problems that the people in specific: areas of this country have. The only link with the outside world that the people of Labrador have, and I am speaking specifically now about this Province, is their transportation system.

The other day picket lines went up in Seven Islands and the picket lines went around the Quebec North Shore Railway, and the stores in the Labrador City/Wabush area had to get a Hercules to bring food in for the people in Labrador West. 639

Haren 15, 1978 AN HON • J:!ElolBElt: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. STRACHAN: AN SON. MEMBER: ·MQ.. Sl'RACliAN: Tape No . 220 Did they (Inaudible) No, they did not. I had it in my desk. The people, I mean. RT-3 The speake:~;, I had ;lt in my desk but there was a slice of bread beeause I thought I might be off my feed. But this indicates some of the costs. We pay sixty-four cents for a loa.£ of bread in Goose Bay. It costs us ninety-two cent§ to fly it from Goose Bay to Nain. That costs six cents to get from Goose Bay to Nain. More than the cost of the bread. MR. ROUSSEAU: One slice or a whole loaf? MR.

STRACliAN: OI_J.e slice only costs us six cents to fly. It costs us one a,nd one-balf times whatever produce we buy to fly 200 miles. MR. • .ROUSSEAU: I only have a few more ~utes. The poil).t I am making, Mr. Speaker, is that the people ef Labrador are not saying, "Look, we should have special status in respect to transportation". But, because and until the transportation system is such that the sole dependancy really is on airlines~ theu every t:1JDe a rate increase occurs in any part of this c;ountTy, l!r. Speak,er, if that would make 640

March 15, 1978 Tape No. 221 MR. ROUSSEAU: people across this country feel any better but specifically in Labrador that we get the brunt of it. I think that our regional airline here,if it were not for Labrador I do not think that would have gotten off the ground as well as it did because it has gone back and forth from Labrador since the late 1950's or early 1960's with its loadage almost - well,not one hundred per cent on average but I will tell you it is as close, Sir, to one hundred per cent as anything across this country and we feel that now some of the benefits should accrue to us because of it.

It is a very difficult situation, It is one that demands government's attention on providing an alternate means of transportation, That has to be done before any development in Labrador occurs and not the railway as it now exists, a railway down there, the Quebec North Shore and Labrador railway which the people of Goose Bay-Happy Valley can get JM - 1 to if they want to drive for a day or so over a road that is not conducive to that sort of thing and the people of Labrador City-Wabush want to take ten hours to go to Seven Islands on it if they are not of sane mentality.

That is not a railway for people or for produce it is a railway for iron ore. We need a transportation system and that is the system that is of course the most essential to all of Labrador now. The communications system is getting better. In the last few years we now have some live television. We feel,I think,that it would not be unusual to ask for an alternative to the Peter Gzowski Show. I mean you know the people of Labrador I think if they have a fixation on their mind it would have to be Ninety Minutes Live.

I afraid to say it but I have from a usually reliable source, as the member from LaPoile would say, Mr. Gzowski will not be with us next year. I hope he is not. SOME HON, ~!EMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. ROUSSEAU: Because the people, you know,you picture a man,and I can speak for my own

part in Western Labrador,who gets off a four to twelve shift and looks forward to a late movie and have to watch Peter on there with that bunch of madcaps he has on from time to time. It is not the sort 641

~larch 15, 1978 Tape 221 JM- 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: of thing that you look forward to on a long cold winter evening after eight hours in the Iron Ore Company of Canada or Wabush Mines sniffing dust sitting down. And looking at this? It is something that I think is very bad for the morale of people.

I would hope that from what I hear is true that this will be his last year and we will be very happy and as a matter of fact the people in Labrador West,and the rest of Labrador I would assume,would be more than pleased to give him a resounding going away party and a great recommendation for whatever else he may choose as long as it is not that hour of the night on television that we have to receive. MR. DOODY: I heard he is going to the Senate . MR. ROUSSEAU: He is probably going to the Senate, I do not know. As long as he gets out of that and gets away from the people of Labrador I think they will all be happy.

But anyway it is a very difficult thing but I