LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, 19 June, 1980 Time - 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Commit tee come to order. Page 36, Resolution 48, (g)( 1) - pass; - the Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, when we adjourned for the dinner hour I wanted to ask the Minister a couple of questions based on what he said at that time and say to him, again, that although we are spending probably more money than ever before, in probably our own province, in relation to attracting other Canadian tourists, I assume that Alberta and Saksatchewan are also spending a great deal more money in our province; that they are going to try to attract Canadians, and Manitobans in particular, to their 75th Bi rthda y celebra tions. You would appreciate th at, Mr.

Chairman, as one who has extended the arm or hand of brotherhood out west. So I just wonder again whether the Min ister has made any special efforts to counte r what will undoubtedly be greater than ever expenditur es in Manitoba by other provinces. The other point that I make to him is that I assume th at when th ese ads are going out th at th ere shouldn't be a mention, not just a mention when you have advertisements running in the United States, a mention of an exchange rate advantage, or if there's still a gasoline advantage but this should be a prominent feature.

It would seem to me that there should be screaming headlines in a lot of ads saying, in effect, 15 percent off of everything.

I mean if a person's looking for a cheaper vacat ion, an American, and they see an ad that says, in effect, that you can get 15 percent off food, drink, clothing, everything, including gasoline, then that would be a powerful drawing card and I don't know why last year I had to attempt to persuade the previous Mini ster of this and I suppose there's some passing reference and now again, I don't know whether this Mini ster is prominently featuring or if you read the fine print, there is a mention of this. So I just ask him if he could comment on those two observations. MR.

DE PUTY CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Well, as I mentioned just at the end of the afternoon session, Mr. Chairman, that we are extending our advertising into Alberta, Saskatchewan and B.C. and we think that we will benefit from their 75th Birthday parties.

We don't have one, we can't advertise one, all we can do is advertise in such a way that people will want to drop off and stay in Manitoba and use our facilities while they are travel ling and spend some time here and if our Manitoba advertising will lure them to spend some more time in our province, I think that it certainly will be a benefit. Mr. Chairman, we don't really have any way of saying 15 percent off because it might be 15 percent in the ad this month and it might be less next month. So our advertising refers to good value for your dolla r and your energy costs while trav elling in Manitoba.

That's about as far as we think we can go as far as saying that is concerned. You might have somebody come up to visit Manitoba and , hopefully not, but if they presented American money, maybe the person wouldn't give them exchange. So we're just not in that particular position of being able to put it in our advert ising the way the member suggests. It wouldn't be fac tual because it's somet hing th at chan ges from da y to da y and certainly could change from month to month, but we do try to take advantage of it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ( 1) - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I think another interesting development in this department is the possible adverse impact of the drought on tourism. I want to say to the Minis ter that when some of these matters are being di scussed in Cabi net and decisions are taken, nobody would disagree that the num ber one priority in terms of the drought is to help agriculture. I mean, there is no debate about that question, that must be given the hig hest priority in attempting to counter what is obviously a crisis in the province of Manitoba.

But I want to say to this Mini ster and I want to say to the Mini ster of Natural Resources that the tourism industry is to a certain extent predicated on the abundance of wild life and on opportuniti es for hunting and fishing.

When those deli berat ions are taking pla ce and when consideration is being given, somewhere in that list of priorities - I don't know where - from one to ten down, whether it's a third or a fifth or an eighth conside rat ion, but somewhere along the way consideration must be given to the fact that people come to this province to hunt and that they are interested in hunting as a sport and the recreation. At the same time people, I suppose, come as just sheer nature lovers and come to look at the wildlife and bird life and so on and so on.

So when the government is deciding on what to do in terms of the drought , they mu st take into consideration the wildlife of the province. I want to say this to the Minister as I asked in a question to his colleague in Natural Resources that he has as a mandate the protect ion and preservation of wildlife in Manitoba. I don't think his record is all that hot to date. The Min ister of Fit ness talks ab out th e polar bear experiment and that is the record.

That's one of the marks on the Minister of Natural Resources, a black mark, and now he's confronted with looking at 25,000 ducks and 25,000 muskrats and so on, and God knows how many other animals and species, and he has to protect those animals for their own sake. But the Min ister of Tourism also has to guarante e that to a certain extent that measures taken will not harm or damage our tourist industry 4947

Thursday, 19 June 1980 which is a multimillion dollar enterprise in the provinQ@ gf Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask a few questions before making another statement and one thing I wanted to ask the Minister is a couple of things about tourism around this building.

I wonder whether he can tell us, for example, why it is that when a tourist comes to this building, which is probably the focal point, all the signs lead here for touris t information - this has been going on for years and should h;;ive been corrected - that although it isn't true today if you look at the sign, if you looked at the signs probably up until a couple of weeks ago, the tourist office in this building, I think, is open from 8:30 to 4:00 or that's the normal business hours but it's always closed for lunch and it strikes me as ridiculous.

That if you come to this building at 12 :00 o'clock � I see one of the officials shaking his head but I as�ure him this is so - that the woman who runs that takes lunch from 12 :00 to 1:00 or 12:30 to 1 :30 and anybody -(I nterjection)- Well, winter or not, I'm talking about 8, 9, 10 months of the year, that office is closed and this just strikes me as ridiculous. That office should be open without a lunch interruption. That's okay in Europe where they have long traditions in some cases where people close at noon hour and go home but I'm saying that I think that should be corrected.

I'd als o lik e to ask the Min ister about his pamphlets, whether he is provi din g bilingua l pamphlets because I know that the previous Minister threw out thousands of pamph lets that were translated into French - I don't know whether these pamphlets are now ava ilable in both languages. When I went down there a couple of months ago I was told there was one pamphlet that you could get in French and that the other ones were all in English.

Now the government, which has introduced a bill and intr oduced new polic y because of a Supreme Court decision, presumably should provide tourist information in both languages. First of all because it is in fact a legal requirement in the sense of we want to see more of this in the province of Manitoba, but secondly, it's good business.

There are people who come here from the province of Quebec, from other parts of Canada who speak French; there are American tourists, some of whom are bilingual; there are people who come from other parts of Europe and some undoub tedly speak a number of languages, but there are people in Europe and Asia who have as a second language, French, not English. So I think it only makes sense that a variety, if not all, which might be too much, that a good variety of our pamphlets be in fact in both languages. I would ask the Min ister if he could comment on those two points. MR.

DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Ho no urable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Presently, Mr. Chairman, we have the general Manitoba folder, what we regard as the overall Manitoba folder, in French. It's "Welcome Manitoba" and as a matter of fact, that's the one that is also printed in French. We have the Legislative brochure which is in French and the "M anitoba Facts" broc hur e, is prese ntly being transl3t@d into French. . . · The drought condition, Mr. Chairman, we presently have beautiful weather in Mani toba, we've had people coming up to our No. 1 tourist attraction, the horse racing.

Our weather has been nice and they've been travelling out through Manitoba. Our hunting and fishing lodges in the north, as I said, are booked for this season. We haven't had any bad flXperience from the drought. I can say that I haven't had consul tation with the Minis ter of Parks and Resources regarding the will"! life, the effects on it, but I haven't had it· reported to me that there is any problems with fishing this summer.

As a matter of fact, the lake that I go to, they're doing great, they're pulling them out in large numbers and that's at Clear Lake, so I can only imagine that they're doing much better elsewhere or as good as usual. The hunting season is not on us yet, Mr. Chairman, and I would certainly consult with the Minister to find out if he feels there will be any effect as far as our hunting season is concerned from the drought.

I'm not able to comment very accurately on the time that the Information Centre in the building is closed, but I'm told that the Legislative Building reception centre is closed for lunch from mid­ October to May, but open from 8:30 to 9:00 daily in the summertime. Now if that's not happening, I'll certainly ask my officials to check on it, Mr. Chairman. The busy tourist times, the hours, as you can see, are extended to assist tourists when they come to this building.

As I said, I can't really comment on what effect the drought will have on our hun ting and fishing recreation but I have no indication at this time that it has had any effect at all. MR. DE PUTY CHA IRMAN: The Honour able Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad ... Oh, the Memb er for Emerson heard that. That would certainly shake him up because I've threatened to run against him in his riding . . . MR. DRIEDGER: I accept the challenge. MR. DOERN: He accepts the challenge. Due to my relatives and friends and the fact that I taught school there it wouldn't take too much to knock him off, Mr.

Chairman. It will either be Steve or me but whatever the case is. Mr. Chairman, the other thing that we raised with the Minister before is his junket down to Mexico and I have a number of questions I want to ask him about that great trade and tourism office opened in Mexico City only six weeks ago. I wanted some information there about, for example, how much? Well, I guess we know how much it's going to cost, it's going to cost 50,000 a year.

I wonder if the Minister could tell us when he went down there, how many people he took with him at gover nment expense and whether the "lea ding Mani toba businessmen" who went with him paid their own way or whether he picked up the tab for them as well, we picked up the tab not he picked up the tab. As I said, I'm quite skeptical of the value of this 50,000 expenditure. We've had a lot of grandiose talk about this being a convenient gateway to Latin America. - (Interjection)- 4948

Thursday, 19 June 1980 MR. DE PUTY CH AIRMAN: �inister on a point of order. The Honourable MR. JOHNSTON: On a point of order. The office of Mexico City comes under Manitrade which comes under Marketing which is (

j) and the only reference, there is tourism literature and tourism information there for people in the office in Mexico but the costs of the trip certainly come under the

section of Market Development (j). MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Mini ster does have a point. The Member for Elmwood come back on. MR. DOERN: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. On that point, I'm now quoting, it is a trade and tourism office. Is the Minister telling me it is not a tourism office? Because I'm telling him that in the Tribune it says Trade and Tourism and I'm sure I can find that in the -(I nterjection)- In fact, his own Information Services news release says Trade and Tourism office. So I assume that I can make a comment at this time. We're talking about tourism. So, Mr.

Chairman, again I'd like to know the cost of that opening trip and the Minister can expand about what he's going to do to drum up tourism in Mexico City for the Manitoba market or for the Latin American market. For example, there's been some mention about agricultu ral pr oduc ts and sellin g refrigerat ion equipment and informing people in Manitoba about opportu nit ies in Mexico and central and South America. It would be interesting to know some of the figures because this

article tells me that we're selling 3 million worth of products in Mexico and I just wonder if the Minister can tell us how much we're selling to the rest of Central and South America. If he has a breakdown, he might provide us with something there. This also tells us that the Mexico City office will be headed by Gonzalo Ornales who previously served in Mexico and throughout Central and South America and Senorita Lourdas Fernandez and she's going to be the information officer. -(I nterjection)- She's a local golden girl.

Then we talk about a three-day event and a luncheon hosted by the Cana dia n Ambassador, and they had an evening reception and th ere's a Mexic o-C anadian Busi nessmen's Asso ciation. It would be interesting to know how many people there are in that organiz ation, and then there was a tour. So I would like to know if the Mini ster can shed some light on that because I think we're pretty sceptical of the value, whether we're going to get 50,000 worth of value out of this or whether this is just going to be an opportunity for a few people in the department to take a little trip south of the border down Mexico way.

MR. JOHNSTON: It's under (j), Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: (1) -p ass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: If the Mini ster wants us to repeat this whole speech again word for word, then I'm prepared to do so, but is there no tourism aspect to this department? Is this in fact just a wasted expenditure? I ask him if he'd care to comment. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr. Chairman, I ha ve no object ion to dis cussing the Mexican office. The Mexican office is paid for by Manitrade, which comes under Marketing (j).

Manitrade is a corporation with its own board of directors, etc., which reports to the market whic h comes under the Ma rketing Development and reports to myself as Minister. I'm not afraid to discuss with the members anything about the trip to Mexico. If he wants to know about the tourism part of it, the girl who is paid by Manitrade is there as an information officer for all things that pertain to the province of Manitoba.

I'm not one bit afraid or not one bit worried about discussing it with the members, but if the member wants to keep repeating himself, I say to him that I, Sir, am willing to discuss the Mexican office with the members at any time under the proper section. It certainly doesn't come under the Salaries of this particular item. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'll wait till then, although my colleague may wish to pur sue it.

But I have to tell the Min ister tha t I'm di sappoi nted because I was just reading a lovely profile of him in the Manitoba business - well, The Prairie Hotelman, and I find it very hard to reconcile with his actions or his behaviour in the department. This

article talks about his muted shades of rust and brown in his office, sets the tone for a friendly Minister in the afternoon sunlight pouring through the tall windows. Then it says, Mr. Chairman, the warm ambience of the surroundings. They're a surprise only until the Minister begins to speak. So you think that in that office there's a tough Min ister. Right? No, that's wrong. It says there's a soft cadence to his voice - well, I get the cadence part but I don't get the soft part - and it's reflected here in the room where he spends so many hours of his week. Mr.

Chairman, I wish we were more acquainted with the gentle aspect of the Minister's personality. We only see the darker side of his personality. In fact, I have to tell him that he serves a very useful role in the Chamb er, that we in the opposition appreciate his participation in the Chamber, because when he comes into the Cham ber to confront the opposition, as he does every day . . . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I wonder if we are on the su bject matter he re; (g)( 1) , or are we not wavering a little bit off the ... if we'd return ... MR. DOERN: Mr. Cha irman , I'm read ing, Mr. Chairman, from an

article which is telling how the Minister is committed to tourism and this is in the Prairie Hotelman. So I'm simply saying that there is a certain harshne ss creeping into his voice and we're waiting for him to answer these questions. I've asked him these questions before; I'm asking him these questions now. He wants me to repeat the same questions for a third time which I am prepared to do, but it seems to me that's not very product ive. But if he's afraid or unwilling to answer them, then we'll ask these same questions again.

But I have to tell him that he is going to have to justify not only the trade operations of the Mexico office, he's going to have to justif y the tourism aspects. He's going to have to explain why they're trumpeting this as a tourism operation or whether 4949

Thursday,_ 19 June 1980 that is a misnomer and they should have only talked about IOl>king into the opportunities for export into the Melllcan market. I see that the Min ister of Government Services is going to bail him out, so we'll see what happens. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, on the point of where we discuss tourism efforts in Mexico, it would seem to me that while it can be done when we get to market development and Manitrade, it really is more properly done under this item.

If we're going to talk about tourist effort, surely it's not going to be under the Manitrade organization. That to me would be totally out of order. Even though the office may be paid for, Mr. Chairman, by Manitrade in total, nevertheless if there are tourist promotion aspects that occur in this office according to the government news release, such aspects are present, then I would suggest that it's quite legitimate for us to talk about travel promotional efforts in Mexico City or anywhere else that the department may be involved. I would ask the Minister if he could tell us then, to be very precise.

Has the Travel Manitoba branch of this department sent any travel promotional literature or material of any kind to promote travel in Manitoba down to the Mexico office? MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Travel Manitoba supplied it to the marketing division in Manitrade and they sent it down, Mr. Chairman. MR. EVANS: The fact then is, Mr. Chairman, that the material is sent down and some effort is made in that office, we find out after all, to promote tourism in Ma nitoba. We're all in favor of promotion of tourism. On the other hand, Mr.

Chairman, we must be sure that we get the greatest value for the taxpayers expenditure, and I would think that the num ber of tour ists we're going to attract from Mexico will be very very few indeed. I hope the Minister is very successful, but I can't see a great deal of results from the effort in this particular office. I wonder if the Minister could advise how many tourists came from Mexico last year? I see there are statistics in the Annual Report of the department.

The last Annual Report I have only shows Canadians from other provi nces coming into Mani toba, Americans coming into Manitoba, and then all other foreign. I wonder if the Minister has a breakdown showi ng how many came from Mexico to the province of Manitoba last year, or indeed the year before. MR. JOHNSTON: Our tourist figures are basically on out-of-Manitoba visitors, Mr. Chairman. I would ask to take the question as notice and we'll check and see if we have any statistics through Canadian Bureau of Statistics or some other counts as to how many we may have from Mexico.

I'm not positive of that figure at the present time. MR. EVANS: In making the decision to have some tourist promotion activities in this Mexican office, did the Minister's department undertake some sort of a study, or did the department und ertake sorne' research into the potential for attracting tourists from Mexico? It would seem to me that would be a rational thing to do. I'm sure there is some research that goes on in that department as to where our best potential is. I would not be surprised, Mr.

Chairman, that if the results show that the greatest potential lies in getting other Canadians to come to Manitoba and also getting our friends south of the border to come to Manitoba. As a matter of fact, if you look at the data for 1978, which is the latest information given to us in the last Annual Report of the Department of Tourism, 19 78-79, of 2.7 million non-r esident visitors to Manitoba, only 43,000 came from other countries outside of the Uni ted States and outside of those coming from other provinces. Indeed, a very small percentage.

It looks something like in the order of 1 1/2 percent; 1 1/ 2 percent of the tourists that came to Manitoba in 19 78 were from off-shore countries or were other than Canada and United States. It seems to me it's a very very tiny number. It would seem to me also, Mr. Chairman, by looking at the data, that the greatest area for promotional activity should be in other parts of Canada and certainly in parts of the United States. I would say rather than spend any money in tourist efforts in Mexico, while I'd love to see some Mexican people come up here, I just cannot see that this is a great possibility.

For one thing, the standard of living in Mexico is very low compared to Manitoba. -(l nterjection)­ Yes, I'm reminded that there are some Mexicans that come to Manitoba, but they come to pick vegetables around Portage la Prairie. They come to earn money. I guess there are a couple of dozen that come up every year or so but not as . . . I guess they come as visitors, but they don't come as tourists. But I'm talking about the people who are going to come and spend some money rather than take money out of the province. I would think, Mr.

Chairman, that the taxpayers of Manitoba would be much better served if the department concentrated its efforts in those parts of the world, those parts of North America outside of Manitoba where the greatest potential lies. Certainly I would suggest that it's not in the Latin American countries because of the fact that the standard of living is much lower there and there are just not the dollars available for people to travel. I repeat, we'd love to see people from all over the world come and spend their money in Manitoba, but I can't see this happening to any great degree in terms of people from Mexico.

It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that this is a misdirection of effort. If the funding is coming out of Manltrade, I don't care, it's still mone y provided by the taxpayers of Manitoba and it doesn't matter whether it's in one appropriation or another, it's still taxpayers' money and I'm sure that members of the House would agree with me in this respect. Also it's not only the staff down there but it's the staff in the department here who do their research and planning and have concerns about Mex ico and sending do wn of material and so forth. I mean there is some involv ement, there is some cost.

So it would seem 4950

Thu rsday, 19 June 1980 to me that unless the Minister can demonstrate that there is a great deal of potential for Mexicans to be attracted to Manitoba, I would say that we're really sowing seeds in the desert without any water. We're really throwing our money to the wind, so it would seem to me, Mr. Chairman. My view, as Minister of Indu stry on trade offices, and we will be discussing trade later but often trade and tourism are connected, was not to have any because, Mr.

Ch airman, if honourable mem bers would take the time, they would see the country, Canada is very well end owed with an excellent foreign service which has various facilities, trade, travel promotion and the like. -(I nterjection)- No. We did not have a tourist - well we had . . . - (Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, I would like to answer but I don't want to talk across the way, I'd like to discuss this. We had no tourist office in Mexico. I bel ieve that we should ende avour to have trade relations, I think there's some potential there. I'm talking about tourism, Mr.

Chairman, I'm not talking about the trade aspects. Mr. Chairman, there has been a travelling salesman in Mexico, there was no office kept in Me xico, th ere was a trav elling salesman for Manitrade but there was no office, there was no tourism promotion in Mexico City. There was no tourism pr omotion th ere, and furthermore, Mr. Chairman, I think that we should not do what a lot of other provinces have done and that is set up offices in other countries of the world, in other major cities of the world and try to dupli cate what the federal government is doing.

As far as I'm concerned that is a dupli cation that is indeed a waste of money. But I would like to know from the Mi nister, what is the potential of tourists coming from Mexico, and do we have any estimate o( how much money they may be spending here, and is there any effort to do something different if it doesn't seem that we're attracting many by simply having an office there, or has the Minister got some other ideas for attracting tourists from Mexico? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I would say that there is a potential to have some tourists from Mexico, there are tourists, and obviously when the member was down there himself he didn't take the opportunity to take a good look at Mexico. It's not all poverty, in fact the tourists in Mexico are people who, when they travel, they travel very well and they spend a lot of money in different areas and they have been coming to parts of Canada. I think that Manitoba has a potential to attract some tourists from Mexico. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I just want a brief question.

I would like the Min ister to tell us the approximate expenditure in the year which has already ended, that is on the left-hand side of the page in this

section and relate it to last year's estimates book which is different to some extent and I would like to know what was spent in the last year and whether he can give us some explanation of the differences between the current book and last year's book under Tourism on this item? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, under the

section we're on, Mr. Chairman, we increased the num ber of staff by five, th e five are in the Dest ina tion Ma nitoba program.

The increase in the staff, as I mentioned before, is 44.2 1 in Travel Ma nitoba and you 're increase of 42.7 is due · to the net effect of the provisions of funds for the general salary increase, shortfall and annual incr ements, the 19 80 -81 anticipation staff turno ver, the provision of three new staff man years , a clerk IV, travel in formation services, Call-Collect Tourist Enquiry Centre is where that clerk works and a term assistant for special marketing projects and a clerk IV, tourism marketing, a planner in Convention and Tours. MR.

CHERNIACK: While the Min ister is looking at the sheet just handed to him, I would like to inform him that he didn't answer my question at all. He gave the change as between last year's estimates and this year's estimates and my question was, what is the actual for last year as comp ared with last year's estimates? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson.

A couple of the members have been asking what part of Manitoba the Mexican tourists are likely to be attracted to and I don't know, I haven't seen many Mexican licence plates around but I have heard that there were Mexican tourists out at Portage Ia Prairie and I wondered if they were a result of this tourist office down in Mexico? I also wanted to ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairperson, about these brochures that were sent down . there through Man itrade, whether they show the costs in Manitoba in U.S. funds, as those that are handed out to Manitobans do, or whether they show them in Canadian funds, or whether we have another batch printed in Mexican funds and perhaps the Mini ster can advise me on that? He doesn't look as though he's quite got the answers yet so I'll perhaps go on to my next question. I asked some questions in April, which were not real ly ans wered, in connection with a position described by the Mini ster as the Golden Girl.

I asked the other day and the Min ister advised me to come back to it under this section, so that's what I'm doing, Mr. Chairperson. I would like to know, I'm interested in the salary, the Golden Jet cost us a mill ion dol lars and knowing that women aren 't usually paid at the same rate as men, I expect that this is considerably less than a million dollars that the Golden Girl is receiving for her services to the tourism industry in Manitoba. I would like to know what the salary is please, Mr. Chairperson?

I would also like to know what the job description was when this job was filled and I would also like to know whether the posit ion was bu lletined in the civil service, since I understand the appoi ntee had been a member of the department? In the Min ister's statement at that time, he stated that this position reflects imagery distinct to Manitoba, qualities such as a vibrancy of youth, golden opportunity and the abund ance of sunshine. I'm wondering if we could get another job description that would bring us a little rain as well as all the sunshine that this man or 4951

Thursday, 19 June 1980 woman filling this position of Golden Girl has very successfully brought to us. So I have a number of questions which I hope the Minister has. But, Mr. Chairperson, just before I sit down and give the Minister a chance to answer, I would like to mention that two nights ago, I believe it was, the Minister promised the Member for Brandon East a list of members of businessmen on boards.

I remember him saying that he would have the list tomorrow, that would be yesterday, and I asked if I could also have the same list, please, and I have not received it - I don't kno w if the Memb er for Brandon East has received it but it was promised for yesterday. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't know how many Mexican tourists are in Portage la Prairie, first of all. The Manitoba Golden Girl, Mr. Chairman, she has participated in one-and-a-half to two-week travel with the tour to Ottawa, Hali fax, Toronto and Montreal, Regina, Calgary, Vancouver.

She was a travel ambassador that travelled across the country with ambassadors from all the other provinces, Mr. Chairman. All of the provinces had different people. B.C. had the Dogwood Girl and, I believe, Alb erta had the Hom ecom ing Queen and I think Saskatchewan had Trapper John and Ontario had Colonel Bye, Quebec had an old fellow from - I'm not sure of them all but they were all ambassadors chosen by their province to travel across Canada with the Government Travel office. There was a trip to Toronto and Ottawa and Winnipeg re the Winnipeg Convention Centre that she attended.

She was at the Winn ipeg Rendezvous that was held here, the Rendezvous Convention. She's been the am bassador at Ken Taylor's presentation, the Order of the Buffalo, with the Honourable Sterling Lyon. She's been the hostess on out-of-town participation for the Manitoba Marathon and she's attended several of the small gatherings or affairs in the province. The Canada month that she travelled across the country cost us a total of 889.99, Mr. Chairman. The Tourism Awareness Program that she participated in and reception costs, Free Press Conferences and lunch with the Golden Girl Program cost us 51 8.00.

The clothing and accessories cost us a total of, well the shirts and jackets were 40.00, the accessories, shoes, shir ts, acces sories, were 567 .00, the reimbursement for shoes and hairdos, etc., were 10 7.00, which were 71 5.00. And the various engagements in April and May that I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, where she trav elle d to Ottawa and Toronto were 1, 850.50 and the total cost for the Golden Girl to date has been 3,974.40. The decision was made tha t the Manitoba Ambassador with this trip would be the Golden Girl.

She has been a very exceptional representative and it seemed to catch on very well in the province so we have expanded her activities to some extent. Mr. Chairman, I would say that the lists that the honourable member is waiting for, the Member for Brandon East is also waiting for, if she seems to feel neglec ted I assure her they will be presented tomorrow or just as soon as we have them ready. The items that the member is speaking of, the Member for St. Johns, is salaries. The actual that was spent last year was 537, 830 .87. The Other Expen ditur es was 1, 380,2 15 .1 4.

The Gr ant Assistance was 15 7 ,598.92 and the Touri sm Agreement was approximately 12 0,000 last year because there was very little done on the agreement last year. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr. Chairman, now we're riding two horses but that's only right for tourism, we ride something. A clarification, Mr. Chairman, when the Min ister gave an incr ease of five becaus e of Destination Manitoba under Salaries, did he add it to the estimated 656,000 or to the actual 538,000, there's quite a difference there between the two figur es, one of which is 12 0,0 00 more?

As the estimate is 12 0,000 more than the actual, where is it the relationship? MR. JOHNSTON: We don't have any Destination Mani toba in the 537,830.87 appropria tion, Mr . Chairman. The Destination people were transferred to Destination Manitoba for this 1980-8 1. MR. CHERN IACK: Just to clarify, Mr. Chairman. I think the Minister said that the five additional people were added to last year's 537,000.00. His advisor is shaking his head so I don't feel like proceeding with that until we get that clarified. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I didn't say what the member said I said.

There are five staff man years charged to Destination Manitoba and that's the reason for the difference, I believe. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. I don't think the Min ister is quite sure about what he's telling us. It seems to me he did say that the five additional were added on to last year's actual. Now, it's a question of numbers but I would like to get it straight. Last year they spent approximately 538,000, this year they're asking for 698,000, a difference of 16 0,000.00. I'm asking, how is that difference made up?

If it's five people then that's an average of over 30,000 per person. So that's what I'm trying to get clear. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm informed by my staff that there were vacancies in the department last year that were not filled. Now the ones that I read off earlier today are 44.21 staff man years in Travel Man itoba, and the five others are in Destination Manitoba. I'm not maybe understanding what the member is trying to get at, because we did have vacant positions last year. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I think clearly in every year there are some vacancies, but what I am getting at is simply, what is the difference between last year's actual and this year's request? The Min ister is coming to this Legislature and this comm ittee and asking for 698,600, and I'm not 4952

Thursday, 19 June 1980 interested at this stage in staff man years. I'm interested in dollars. If he's asking for 698,600, my question to him was, how much did you spend last year and he said 537,830. So he's asking for roughly 16 0,000 more than he spent last year. My question was, why 16 0,000 more? How is that made up? I thought he said by five additional people. MR. JOHNSTON: No, Mr.

Chairman, the total increase - I read it off - the total increase of 42. 7 is due to the net effect of the provisions of funds for general sal ary incr ease shor tfall and annual increments of 84,000.00; an antici pated staff turnover figur e of 81,000, which is a credit; a provision for three new staff people, which is 39,000, coming to a total of 42,700.00. And the reason for the balance is because we had some staff man years that were not filled last year. MR.

CHERNIACK: Now I believe that the Minister is saying that the 42,000 is the difference between last year's authorized amount and what he wants this year, not between last year's expenditure and what he wants this year. The difference appears to be that he's asking for 12 0,000 more than he spent last year, plus the roughly 40,000 that he's explained. My question then is, how many vacancies did he have last year and are they all filled right now? In other words, is he going to spend 698,000 in Salary, or do we go back to last year and say it is not likely that he will and doesn't need that much money?

So, again, maybe the more precise question is, since he had vacancies last year, what's his present establishment? Does he have vacancies this year? MR. JOHNSTON: Last year we had eight or. nine vacancies, I believe it was eight, Mr. Chairman. We have filled three of the vacancies. There have been ads placed and competitions are being held right at the present time to fill up our full complement of staff to cover this appropriation. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the next logical question is, what's the trouble, why aren't you able to get the people that you need for this?

Eight vacancies, all of last year or part of last year, and only three filled so far. What is the problem with recruiting staff? MR. JOHNSTON: I don't think we're having any problem, Mr. Chairman. We had something like 17 6 applications for one position and I'm told by my staff that it was over 700 for the five. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, 700 people have applied for five jobs and they are still not filled. Mr. Chairman, that's a rather astonishing figur e.

I'm wondering if they are all Manitobans and if that is really what is happening in Manitoba, that 700 people are looking for a job in this particular field of five jobs, and it's still not filled. Now I gather from the Minister he wants to fill them and that all of last year he was not able to fill them, even though he now has 700 applicants. So my question would have to be, what was wrong last year? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to take that as notice. I am not trying to throw it off. I'll check with my people when I have some time. I wasn't the Minister of this department till November.

The positions presently have been advertised for. The Civil Service Commission is work ing on the interviewing - I'm told next week - to fill these positions. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr. Cha irman, really appreciate the Min ister pointing out what I had overlooked and that is that he was not the Minister last year, therefore, he obviously could not be expected to have these answers right at his beck and call. I appreciate the fact that he under took to explain it. I'll move on, Mr. Chairman, I could either do it now or wait for each sub-it em.

I'd lik e to kno w for example, Grant Assistance, who is to get that, but I'll wait for the (3) then, Mr. Chairman. We're still on Salaries, and I think the Member for Fort Rouge has not given up her quest for information. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: I realize that this 4,000 in two months is probably not a major item in the Minister's expenditures, but I'm wondering why he is being so determined not to tell us what the job description was or whether this position was bulletined in the Civil Service or not.

I think that this is a reasonable question in view of the comments we've had from the First Minister on the merit system and we find that apparently this individual's clothes and shoes are being paid for by the taxpayer. I would also like to know whether there is a salary in addition to the 2,000 a month that this position is costing us, or whether this nearly 4,0 00 that the Minis ter has described includes salary. Particularly I want to know how this position was described if and when it was bulletined, please, Mr. Chairperson. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr. Chair man, the positio n wasn't bulletined.

It's a contract position and the fee for services with the Golden Girl, Darlene Ronald. I think one of the main - I can tell you the main reason for choosing her is that we were asked to move very fast by the Canadian government office of Tourism to have an ambassador to travel across the country. If the honourable members would refer to our literature that we have had in tourism in the past couple of years, I think you will find that Darlene Ronald's picture was on a lot of that literature. She was a very logical person to be chosen for that because she had worked in the building here as a guide.

She has taken a course at the Red River Community College to do with tourism and she has also worked at Eaton's as a counsellor where she presently has a job. But she was chosen mainly because her photograph had already been used on a lot of the literature for the tourism in Manitoba. MRS. WESTBURY: I'm sorry, did the Minister say that she is at the present time employed at Eaton's? Is she still then our Golden Girl or was that a two­ month contract position, costing 4,000, and was there a salary in addition to that amount? I would just like to say to the Minister that I think many 4953

Thursday, 19 June 1980 people in Manitoba regr et the sort of gir l connota tion, wish that women could be called women when they are representing our province, and also that we would really feel that a position like this should be open to all of the people of the province and not adjudged on the basis of a person's sex. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, Eaton:s, because she was on our literature last year, kindly agreed to allow her time off to work as our ambassador in Golden Girl.

As I mentioned very clearly, I thought, that she is on a contract of fee-for-service, when requested to become part of a tourism promotion. I can say, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is probably the only one that has that attitude about the Golden Girl. The Golden Girl has been accepted by most Mani tobans as a go od ambassador and I can assure you that the people across Canada, when our Golden Girl was presented at many receptions with the other ambassadors on stages, etc., she was looked upon as a smart good­ looking Manitoba girl representing the Manitoba people. MRS.

WESTBURY: I just wanted to say, the fact that her photograph was on our literature is an excellent reason for appointing her as an ambassador. It was the title that I thought could have been improved upon. I want to thank the Minister for at last giving me the information that I have been trying for so long to elicit. MR. DEPUT Y CHAI RMAN: The Memb er for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just have a short question on the Golden Girl and it's an obvious one; why you would have a Golden Girl with brown hair.

It just strikes me that it seems to be logical to have somebody with blonde hair, either an actual or real blonde or one that could be changed into a blonde. If somebody is in a crowd and they say, where's the Golden Girl? Somebody comes up with brown hair, it just doesn't quite seem to fit the picture. If you have Miss Suntan, you don't want somebody who's pale and so on. -(I nterjection)- Well, the Minister is going to answer. MR. JOHNSTON: I explained, Mr. Chairman, that Darlene's picture was on a lot of our literature and we didn't insist that she dye her hair. This wasn't a beauty cont est, Mr .

Chairman, this was an ambassador for Manitoba and she did an excellent job. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister about some of his red hot promotions. I saw him one morning at the Odeon Theatre when he was pounding away trying to drum up some enthusiasm to kick off one of the campaigns and then we've been deluged by all kinds of brochures and buttons, enthusiastic promotions. I thought it was quite good actually. I walked into the Odeon Theatre and somebody, an attractive young lady shook my hand and handed me a pamphlet and said, good to see you.

I thought, gee, I wonder how I know her, but it turned. out that it was a slogan. Everybody was getting that good glad hand -(l nterjec tion)­ gladhanding, is that it, treatment and so on. I want to refer to the kickoff of the campaign on April 30th that the Minister made at the Convention Centre and it said that it was personally ushered in by J. Frank Johnston. "More than 300 Manitoba capitalists", I'm not reading from Paul Sullivan 's colou rful colu mn, "More than 300 Manitoba capitalists tied into the chicken Kiev lunch and heard Frank Johnston give a bullish speech". Well, Mr.

Chairman, I've heard of a bull in a china shop but I've never heard of a bull at a chicken luncheon, and he was promoting Manitoba, with cleverly designed "Made in Manitoba" logos, decals, stencils, stickers, and packing tape. Here's some of the order forms; "Man ufacturers, order your Manitoba-made kit now from the Manitoba government. Labels, posters, advertising tags, to help your company brag about being Manitoban".

And one Manitoban's brag kit included all these different things I mentioned and the whole thing looked terrific - "Look to us, Manitobans, Good to see you", and then what do we find when you look at the buttons, made in USA. Mr. Chairman, that really was a disappointment to me, that here we have a program, and I want to ask the Minister more than about these buttons. I want to know about these kits, because I want to tell him that I have a sneaking suspicion that this whole thing may not have been printed in Manitoba.

I want him to clear that up, because we have in here all these decals and this little chart for the American dollar, the exchange rate. We have little things to paste on windows and on lapels. I want to kn ow if the whole thing was printed in Manitoba, because we know the buttons weren't. You know, I have to tell him that I happen to be a strong believer in the use of local printers and so on. Mr.

Chairman, when we in the New Democratic Party, when we get our items printed, they're always printed here and they're always Union Label, and I think that it's only a minumum requirement. - (Interjection)- No, I wanted to use it on my car. Mr. Chairman, here's a promotion supposedly to encourage people to come to our province and a portion, if not all of it, is printed outside of the province. I have to say that I am very suspicious of the Queen's Printer in that regard because when the reporter tried to track that down, apparently the buttons were printed in Chicago or New Jersey, or at least portions of them.

When they went to McKim Adver tising, they said, where was this stuff from, she said that the blame rests squarely on the Queen's Printer, who unfortunagely had gone home at 4:45. I'd like to know more about that. I have questions about the Queen's Printer which I'm not going to put now, but while the printer was fired after a number of months and I'm very curious about his track record at that particular point of time. But I say to the Minister, he's the Minister of Economic Devel opment and he's the Min ister of Tourism and he allows a contract for promotional material to go outside of Manitoba.

Now we need the jobs. We need the business. Manitoba printers need the printing contracts, there's all kinds of people in Winn ipeg who are in the button-making business and could easily have handled this contract. So I say to the Min ister that this is, I think, shoc king and disappointing and he should have someone in his 4954

Thursday, 19 June 1980 department, if he can't undertake the job himself, who has the sole responsibility of ensuring that materials to promote Manitoba are printed in the province of Manitoba. I think that should be a policy of the department. So I want to ask him, Mr. Chairman, if he has any com ments and I want to ask him where these materials were printed. We know the buttons came from the U.S. What about all the other brochures that are in the package that are not identified? MR. JOHNSTON: First of all, Mr. Chairman, the member is reading from an

article tha t referred to the dinner on the 30th because I'm very sure of that, if it referred to 400 capitalists having lunch. There was no lunch at the "Good to See You" campaign kick-off at the Odeon Theatre. -(I nterjection)- That was under economic development, Mr. Chairman, it was the Manitobans Program that was kicked-off to the Awareness Program under Manitoba - under the Manitobans Program shared with Enterpr ise Manitoba and the federal government. That is the 1 lunch that he is speaking of, that's the one that the Member for Brandon East has referred to my speech at that lunch on occasion.

It's very disappointing that a writer in the paper would refer to Mani toba businessmen in that form because they weren't all, there were many municipal people at that particular meeting. So, Mr . Ch airman, every thing was print ed in Manitoba. All of the material was ordered through the Queen's Printer and the printing was done in Manitoba. The little - the ones that stick on you are a franchise or a patented product that is brought in by printers, ordered by printers, not by anybody else. They keep them in stock and when they get orders to print something on them, they print something on them. The buttons, Mr.

Chairman, were print ed in Manitoba. All of our literature is ordered through the Queen's Printer and the printing is done by Manitoba firms. The buttons are made in the United States. Just the same as this "Catch your Good Neighbour" button which was put out by the previous government, under the Minister, the Member for Burrows, was also made in the Un ited States, Mr. Chairman, printed in Manitoba. So I would say that if they would check the back of the Blue Bomber buttons, if they would check the back of any buttons, you will find "Made in USA" on a lot of them. Sometimes some of them say nothing.

There is not a button like this made in Canada at the present time. We are thinking of turning to a plastic circle, which the pin would have to be glued on and if we can be assured that the pin will stay on, we will place orders for the "Good to See You" buttons in Canada. But there are none made in Canada but the printing is all done in Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. DE PUTY CHA IRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, it is true that all products, all items which we require are not available from manufacturers in Canada and from time to time we do have to go beyond the boundaries of our province, but the regrettable thing is that on this occasion, the whole theme and the general thrust of the Minis ter's speech was to promote Manitoba business, Manitoba industry. In the course of doing so, he distributes stuff made in the United States of America and in the same breath he's talking about creating jobs for Manitobans, but really he was only paying lip-service to it and the Minister knows it.

You know, it's been told me that on one occasion when the Minister was talking about promoting tourism in Manitoba, he attempted to wax poetic and he says, "Manitoba, I love you. Manitoba I love you as I would love a woman. Manitoba if you were a woman - and I'm quoting the Minister. I'm quoting as was recorded . . . MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN : The Ho nou rable Minister on a point of order. MR. JOHNSTON: I don't recall ever saying that I love you Manitoba. I would refer and I would ask the member to give me the date and the time. I've often said I, maybe I do love Manitoba.

If the honourable members don't, I happen to be a Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, but I wish the member would give me the time and place and I'll certainly check into it. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, now we know the Honourable Minister does not love his province, but apparently . . . MR. JOHNSTON: I ended up saying that I do love Manitoba, but I don't -(I nterjection)- I said it here tonight and I'm very proud of my province, but the honourable member seems to want to make fun of it, but I wish he would give me the date and time in a speech where I said that. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, the Minister just said it tonight ... MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think if we'd get back on the subject (g)(2). - the Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, yes, Mr. Chairman, and it was reported to me tha t the Honourable Minister was talking about his -(I nterjection)- how deeply he loved the province of Manitoba, that he loved Manitoba as if she were a woman, and it was reported to me that he said that Manitoba, if she were a woman, if you were a woman I would marry you.

As somebody from the back of the hall says, "Well dammit it all you should after what you and your government have been doing to her for the last two and a half years". -(lnt erjection)- But I think, Mr.

Chairman, getting to the item that we are presently deba ting, I think that this is indicative of -(I nterjection)- the manner in which the First Minister has split up the Parks, Tourism and Cultural Affairs and Recreat ion Department into splinters is indicative of the regard and the concern the government has for the tourism ind ustry, because the First Minister has left this Minister with nothing, with absolutely nothing, with a nothing branch.

A few days ago a friend of mine from south of the 49th Parallel phoned me and wanted to visit the province of Manitoba -(In terjection)- not that much far south, from the State of North Dakota and he was interested in doing a number of things with 4955

Thursday, 19 June 1980 his family. He wanted to camp, fish. He wanted to spend some time in Winnipeg. He was interested in athletic functions and events. He was interested in cultural af fairs. So he asked me who was the Minister that he could talk to. So I said, tell me again, what is it you want to do? Well, he says, I want to camp. So I said, if you want to get information about camping facilities in our parks you'll have to talk to the Minister of Environment, he's the one in charge of our parks.

So then he said, well, I'm also interested in some of the ethnic festivals and Rainbow Stage, etc., Folklorama, who should I talk to about that? I said, well, you have to talk to the Minister of Cultural Affairs and that's another Minister. Then he said, now, about athletic events during the summer months. I said, you have to talk to the Minister of Fitness, Recreation and Sport.

Then he said, you mean to tell me that a tourist has to go to three different departments or four different departments, including this Minister's, to get whatever information he wants with respect to visiting the province of Manitoba and I said, that's the way this government has split it up. So he then asked me, what's the Minis ter of Econ omic Develo pment responsible for? MR. CHERNIACK: Manitoba's economy. MR. HANUSCHAK: For which? MR. CHERNIACK: The horrible state of Manitoba's economy. MR. HANUSCHAK: Ye s.

So I told him he's responsible for the horrible state of Ma nitoba's economy and tou want to see it, then you talk to him and he's the one who should be able to give you all the answers. Here's this Minister being left with a nothing branch because tied in with tourism you have parks, you have cultural affairs, you have recreat ion and spor t and this Min ister isn't responsible for any of those branches, none at all, and yet, having a nothing branch under his jurisdiction, the Estimates Book shows more than a 50 percent increase in the appropriation for the fiscal year that we're presently in.

It really makes one wonder, Mr. Chairman, how can this Minister justify a 50 percent increase for the operation of a branch that really can do absolutely nothing with respect to the promotion and the expansion of the tourism industry in the province of Manitoba? Because there are a number of other departments that are inv olved in it. Really, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister would like to think that he has the power and the influence that he could exercise over his colleagues in Cabinet to develop the tourism program in the manner in which he wants to but I really don't think that he does.

Then it really makes one wonder what is he going to spend that additional 50 percent of the appropriation on, from 3.4 million going up to 5.5 million; well, this is more than 50 percent, this is about a 60 or a 70 percent increase. Really, during the course of the debate tonight, the Minister has not given any indication as to the manner in which he hopes to spend this money, and in the process of spending it, to offer the people of Manitoba some assurance that there really will be an increase in the tourism industry during the forthcoming fiscal year.

The Minister is now responsible for the tourism branch and I would ask the Minister, given the fact that tourism has been carved out of cultural affairs, recreat ion, parks and now he's given the sole responsibility just for tourism - whatever that's supposed to mean, I'm not quite sure - what will be the cost benefit to the people of Manitoba, he, having been given that sole responsibility?

In other words, with this carving up of a ministerial portfolio and the Minister of Corporate Welfare being given the responsibility for this - and I emphasize that point because the Minister prides himself in giving welfare grants to his friends in the corporate sector ... -(I nterjections)- The Minister for Highways has referred to this Trails and Byways, this got under his skin a bit because this is an accurate description of the Minister sitting in the front bench.

I want the Minister to tell us, what can the people of Manitoba expect to gain? -(I nterjec tion)- Now the Honourable Minister for Minnedosa wants to make a speech and, Mr.

Chairman, you know as well as I do that he will have the same opportunity as I and the 56 other members of this Assembly, to get up and make his speech and under the rules, when I'm through speaking, I'll be quite prepared and happy to sit down and giv e him his opportu nity to say whatever he wishes to say, so he needn't bother wasting his energy speaking from the seat of his pants as he likes to and as he normally is prone to do. -(lnt erjection)- Really, Mr.

Chairman, the people of Manitoba do want to know of what financial advantage will it be to them to have tourism carved out of the department, within which it was for a number of years, and being placed into the hands of the Minister of Corporate Welfare as a separate branch, quite removed from other branches very closely associated and related to tourism, namely, cultural affairs and recreation and parks. So the people of Manitoba really do want to kno w what can they hope to gain from this reorgan ization by placing tourism wit hin the jurisdiction of the Minister of Corporate Welfare.

There must be some rationale, some justification for it or at least the people of Manitoba would like to think that there is. If there is, I think there is no one better, no one more qualified to explain the rationale for it, than the Minister who is responsible for this branch. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the reason for the tourism being put with Economic Develo pment is fairly clear, the other provinces have done it. That's no reason to say that we should do it but the tourism at the present time has an income, Mr.

Chairman, of close to, well, it's 37 3,7 2 1,0 00 a year and it's Manitoba's fourth largest industry. The reason we expect to have an increase of plus 4.6 percent in tourism this year, that's our goal, that's the goal that is directed by our advertising campaigns out-of-province and out-of-country and in-pr ovince and also promoting the province of Manitoba and in promoting the people of Manitoba to travel within the province of Manitoba - that's the logic for the change. To the honourable member, I can assure him if he gives me the person's name I will check with him and 4956

Thursday, 19 June 1980 find out how he happened to get mixed up because all of that information on sports events, cultural affairs events, all of those are there. As a matter of fact, if the member had referred him to the book that we put out which lists all the events in Manitoba, I think that might have been a help also and it's available to the honourable member if he would like to have it. I explained the increase in salaries.

The increase in the appropriation that we are looking at at the present time is the Tourism Awareness Program which is being carried on and it's been in four areas of the province already. That program is a program to make hotel owners and restaurant owners and anybody who would have anything to do with the tourist industry and their employees, aware of the importance of tourism, Mr. Chairman. Rendezvous Canada we felt was a real feather in our cap to be able to have it in Manitoba this year and it was split with us by the province of Saskatchewan, we were the co-hosts. As I mentioned earlier, Mr.

Chairman, today I had a very good breakfast and discussion with the Honourable Mr. Grose who is the Minister of - maybe for their own reason - the Minis ter of Mines and Tourism in Saskatchewan. The Wally Byham International Trailer Caravan, they're going down there this week I belie ve to make repres entation to have that particular convention here in Manitoba again. Pardon me, the Wally Byham promotion is 5, 000; the Vacation Pl anner is 2,000.

We have the total promotion which comes to 61 ,000 and then we have the Creative Services AV Production with 15 ,000; our publications will be 58,000 and then we have Travel Information Services and we have a "call collect" number at the present time, which has been very well advertised - that the friend of the honourable member, if he'd phoned we might have been able to help him. The In formation Rece ption Centre improvement and signage is another 25,000, coming to a total of 21 4,000 increase in those items.

The items that we have always worked on are the Touris m Ma rketing and the Travel In formation Services and the Tourism Marketing is done; the In­ province Marketing Canada -U.S.; the Opportunity Marketing; the Creative Marketing contingency and of cou rse I menti oned the New Marketing Development, the In- province Awareness; the Ad­ copy Testing and the total Media Marketing. I might say, Mr.

Chairman, and I don't know whether the member was here today when I showed him, that in 19 70 the tourist dollars were here and they moved up in 19 74 to here, that was the amount spent, and the number of people from 19 70 to 1974 went up also. Now from 19 74 the amount of tourist dollars that were spent right down to 19 78 were dropped completely and so did the people that came to the province drop completely, Mr. Chairman.

So we'd be very very wrong if we didn't realize by this chart that it does have to have some promotion to increase your touris t trade, which is our fourth la rgest industry, and brings in a lot of money and keeps a lot of people employed, Mr. Chairman. So I think that the rationale for the Tourism to be with Economic Development because it is jobs in all of the industry and we find it working very well, Mr. Chairman. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Burrows. MR.

HANUSCHAK: . . . own chart or graph which you showed us just a few seconds ago and take into account the inflated value of the dollar over the years, that it's quite apparent that over the seven­ year interval from 19 70 to 19 77 there are more tourist dollars spent in the province of Manitoba than during the two-and-a-half years of this politic al party's government. It's quite apparent from that graph that they're having some extreme difficulty in bringing about a turnaround in the expenditure of tourist dollars in attracting more tourists, and more tourists to spend more dolla rs in the province of Manito ba.

Because you must bear in mind, Mr. Chairman, that the 19 80 dollar is worth what of 19 70? Fifty cents? MR. DOERN: ... exactly. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, 50 cents. MR. DOERN: '71 to now is 50 cents. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, that's right. So, really, that graph even took a much farther dip down than what it really shows. So the Minister really has absolutely nothing to brag about. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (2)- pass; (3)- pass - the Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: I understood we're still on (1) , Mr. Chairman. I don't know how we got we past . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I passed ( 1 ). MR. EVANS: No, Mr.

Chairman, we never got past (1) . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I got it signed, but go ahead. The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's a very interesting explanation that the Minister has given us regard ing the corr ela tion between travel promotion expenditures and the degree to which tourists come to Manitoba. It seems to me that the Minister is making a very very simpl istic correlation between these two factors, between the phenomenon of tourists flooding into Manitoba and the degree to which we spend money to promote tourism. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Honourable Minister has - it would be very good to have for the last 10 years - the ratio of travel expenditures in Manitoba compared with travel or tourist department costs, the costs of operating our total tourist promotion, total tourist administration operation or department in the province, comparing that with the amount of travel expenditures as a ratio over the years. That would be something interesting to look at.

But the Minister has just finished saying that his estimate for 19 80 is an increase of 4.6 percent. 4.6 percent in the increase - I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong - but the Minister says we forecast for 19 80 an increase of 4.6 percent. Mr. Chairman, he should be predicting something more in the order of 40 percent, because he wants 4957

Thursday, 19 June 1980 to spend 40 percent more this year than last year - 40 percent, this is a phenomenal increase. I know some of it is recov erable from Ca nada but, nevertheless we're goin g from 3.4 mi llion to 5.5 million. It's roughly a 40 percent increase.

And I say, for a 40-percent increase in expenditures to get only 4.6 percent in the number of tourists com ing to Manitoba or tourist dolla rs spent here, I'm not sure which the percentage applies to, is rather a disappointment based on the Minister's statement of this very straightforward correlation as he says there is between promotion efforts, tourist promotion expenditures and the degree to which people travel in the province of Manitoba from other countries, from other provinces. So I would like him to explain why we're not getting a much bigger increase than 4.6.

Obviously, there are other factors and if there are other factors then that correlation he's just referred doesn't hold true. Certainly where we are in the business cycle has an important bearing. Surely the deg ree to which there is emplo yment or unemployment in the country, in other countries, surely the degree to which there is economic activity has a bearing on tourism. Surely, Mr. Chairman, the weather has something to do with it. If we have lousy weather in the summer mo nths, surely that has something to do with the number of tourists that are coming into our province.

If we have a wet, rainy summer, which some of us wish we had right now. If you do, it's good for farmers maybe if you have some extra rain but it's not very good for tourists. The cost of gasoline surely has a bearing on the amount of travelling that's done, at least, by the automobile. It has a bearing also on people who come by air because there's no question, of course, that aviation fuel has also shot up by enormous amounts.

The cost of this has shot up by enormous amounts in the past few years, thanks to OPEC and everything else that we know of in terms of oil pricing in the world and in Canada and in North America in general. So there's no question that there has to be other factors that one must take into consideration, but I'd like the Minister to explain why is it then, if you've got a 40-percent increase being requested for Travel Manitoba, why is it that you only expect a 4.6-percent increase in tourism, that's 19 80 over '79? MR. DE PUTY CHA IR MAN: The Memb er for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT C. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, thank you.

I was looking to follow the Member for Burrows because I had to rise on the basis of the fact that I think that when you're talking about promotion and the correlation of sales dollars, it goes beyond that. There's an all-encompassing um brella here where you can't just talk about the particular dollars spent. One of the tragedies in attracting tourists to this province for years has always been the attitude of the majority was always positive but there was always that negative element.

I would like to see the Minister have a think tank or a particular display in this building to show the 57 members of this House, the elected representatives, who are some of the leaders of this community and who should all be carrying a positive attitude to attract tourist to this particular province. I think that if the Member for Burrows, who used to be the Tourism Minister, should have done that when he was in office to let the members of this House know.

I don't think there is anything that makes you more proud as a Manitoban when you go down to a trade show in Minneapolis to see the fantastic promotional material that this Minister and other Ministers have put out and his staff have put out to promote Manitoba and yet it's all foreign to us because we never get to see it. Now, what I'm saying is I feel that maybe the time is arriving to educate the members of this House so that we don't have outbursts like we had from the Member for Burrows that hopefully won't get reported in the press because we need a positive media when it comes to tourism.

We can't have quotes from the Member for Burrows to further cloud an issue that needs to have all Manitobans get behind and help sell tourism in Manitoba.

I was at a particular district street function tonight and there were two tourists from England and they said that we should be doing more promotion in the Englis h market because of the change in the economy, as such, when you have the North Sea oil boom and other things, plus the fact that now the bargains that were once there for Canadians - the Minister of Government Services was telling us the other day of the cost of hotels and services in London and becoming one of the most expensive convention cities in the world.

I think that when you have Manitoba and Canada starting to look as a bargain paradise for the European market as the shifting changes, then, there may be an element there. But you must really concentrate, I agree, on the markets which your tourist dollar will stretch to. I remember in my Throne Speech last year asking our Cabinet, my own gov ernment - it wasn 't criticism, it was a suggestion - to please put more tourist dollars in the budget. I think this current Minister has done an excellent job in being able to sell that message.

You give the sales people and the people in the trade the help that they need and they will match you dollar for dollar. They will match you enthusiasm for enthusiasm. I would like to see that the Member for Burr ows and other mem bers opposite be taken and be part of an educational process where this Minister shows all the mem bers of this House what it is we are using for promotional material south of the border so that we don't have, when we get to a section, Travel Manitoba, that is promoting this province, it would be just a very minimal examination because everything would be positive.

We would be in there selling the province and offering suggestions for improvement, rather than criticism. I would hope that we could get behind the Minister and further help because what better time? I know we've got a lot of agricultural people on this side of the House, but when you have a summer stretching like we have, what a selling feature. You've got some of the best weather you could ever hope to have when you have tourists visiting our province and our lakes during the summer months.

I'm just saying that's the type of thing, that with the destination improvement, I'm sure that if all of us are made aware of our promotional material we might 4958

Thursday, 19 June 1980 have some suggest ions to help the advertising experts because there sometimes is a common touch that might be missing. Right now, in the school system in Winnipeg No. 1 - I'm telling my friend, the Minister of Education - they are having projects. First of all, it started off with Canada week and all of them had a project on Canada and I'm very pleased to see that this week in Winn ipeg No. 1, it's promoting Manitoba. There is a girl right here in this building who has a special package put together for school projects and they are available to the school system.

It's really amazing the questions these young people are asking about our own province so that when they become teenagers and when they become in that area of starting to travel themselves, that they will be informed and they will be part of our sales force which won't cost us anything, which is part of the school system. I welcome the encouragement by the Minister of Education in helping my colleague, the Minister of Tourism, in this regard. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I looked at that chart that the Minister was waving, showing how the increase in government expenditure to him suggests even a corresponding increase in tourism, and of cou rse, it is simpl istic. But considering the expenditure by the government, I'm wondering if the Minis ter would try to define the role of Tourism Manitoba and how it relates to this department. MR. DE PUTY CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, to answer first of all the Member for Brandon East, he's quite right, there is a recoverable from the federal government because Destination Mani toba is in the appropriation. It's 60 percent recoverable, but that 4 percent we're speaking of is visitor s which we expect, on 4 percent would have 12 7, 500 more visitors and I think that's a energetic goal. The income increase, we expect to have from it, is 11 .2 percent which is 42 million, Mr. Chairman, so we hope to have 415 million income in the tourism.

In the Destination Manitoba is an agreement signed by the province with the federal government to help promote and help place money into Manitoba to increase our tourist facilities, our tourist promotions, which we feel is a good investment for the province of Manitoba and Destination Manitoba. When we come to it I plan to give the honourable members a list of the six programs that are related under this contract with the federal government, Mr. Chairman. lt"s very similar to the program of Enterprise Manitoba, which is under Economic Devel opment, which is another signed contract, Mr. Chairman.

So the rela tionship to tourism is that there is an agreement with the federal government on tourism, there is an agreement with the federal government on economic development, there is an agreement with the federal government on Northlands and it's all part of the DREE agreements with the federal government, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr.

Chairman, when I said Tourism Manitoba, realize the correct name is Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba, which is strictly a private enterprise and is in volv ed in attempting to upgrade and promote their services in such a way as to improve their returns, and that's why I'm wondering just how the department works with this private enterprise institution and whether there is a direct relationship or support either way. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, yes, I'm sorry, I migh t have mi slead the honourable member. I thought he meant Destination Manitoba.

Yes, we provide funds to the Travel and Convention Association of Manitoba. The Travel and Convention Association is basically a non-profit organization that was set up a long time ago in the province of Manitoba. Associated with them is the Winnip eg Tourist and Convention Centre and then, of course, associated with the Manitoba Tourist and Convention Centre are the smaller units such as the Convention Associations of say, Flin Flan, the Trout Festival, and many others. Ther e are seven di stricts, Mr. Chairman.

The Tou ris t and Convention Assoc iation of Manitoba for the central office gr ants are as fol lows: Co-ord ination of re gi ons 35,000; for provincial convention services 30,000; for grants to sponsor of local tourist information booths 10 ,000; which is a total of 76,000.00. There is 2,000 available for administrative support for each rural branch. The rural branches, they receive a ratio in the Interlake region of 7.5. In other words, the Association spends 12, 000 on promotion of tourism in the Interlake, the province will pay 7,000 of the 12 ,000.00.

Central plains is a ratio of 1.1; East Man is a ratio of 2.2, and the total of those grants, Mr. Chairman, add up to 49,000, for those projects are 49,000.00. And of course I mentioned the administrtion, which is 2,000 each. The conti ngency in that particular appropriation is 7. The total grant assistance to the Travel and Convention Association is 14 6.3, and the Festivals and Special Events Grants we have an appropriation of 35,000, bringing that to a total of 181 ,000, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, firstly I'd like to help the Minister update himself and inform him, apparently he doesn't know, that the Tourist and Convention Association of Manitoba is no longer called that, inde ed is the Tourism In dustry Association of Manitoba. So for his information, the name has been changed. In addition, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has told us that the grants that he gives to that organization is 181, 000 14 6,300, and then he mentioned another 35,000, totalling he said, 181, 000, which is item (3) before us, I assume.

Maybe he meant the 35,000 goes to somebody else, and therefore it's 14 6,000, but I marvel at the fact that they annour.ced in their May-June issue that, "The Honour able J. Frank Johnston, Minister of Economic Dev elopment and Tourism, announc ed that the Association will receive an increase of 13 0,000 in funding", and I don't even understand, Mr. Chairman. It would imply that they received 16 ,000 last year and got an increase of 13 0,000, and that really I don't understand. 4959

Thursday, 19 June 1980 Mr. Chairman, the other thing I don't understand is how it is that the government, this free enterprising laissez-faire government is supporting the voice of the private sector. Here we have the official publication, at least I assume it's official, I'm sure it is, of Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba, to whom the government is giving substantial moneys, 14 6,000 or 181 ,000, an increase of 13 0,000 they say, and it is the voice of the private sector.

It seems to me that voice is given a great deal of breath in order to speak loudly because the government is subsidizing the private sector. I marvel at the fact that the government, which has brought in restraint programs and user fees and a whole attitude of live on your own and look after yourself, is even now bringing in renewed legislation to force children to support their parents, it's all pay­ your-own-way government, that they are supporting the voice of the private sector.

I marvel at that and I'm wondering how the Minister is going to justify that and relate again to the Member for Burrows, I think, who was talking about welfare bums. I'm wondering why is it that the tourism industry, which apparently is, well, is called the Tourist Ind ustry Asso ciation of Manitoba, has to come to government. First they proclaim loudly that it is the voice of the priv ate sector and then comes to government for support and is so happy that the Minister has given them an increase of 13 0,000 in funding. How does the Minister relate that to his own philosophy? MR.

DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I am informed that the book was printed and I read from the Tourist and Convention Association Manitoba Syndicate, is the name I call it. I am told that we were aware of them changing their name. I guess that it has been done by now in their new brochure and I guess we support it for the same reas on the previous government did, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I just have to comment that if the Minister uses that as a reason, then he has given up a great deal of marvelous philosophic approaches which he fought so bitterly when he was in opposition, now to say that we give it because they gave it. I've heard this from other Ministers, it's very peculiar, Mr. Chairman. Here they attack the previous government in various respects on policy issues but when they give something, and might find it difficult to answer, the answer is, well, they gave it, so we gave it.

I only wish they had the good sense to do so many of the things that we did that they have cut from under and I speak specifically, what I mentioned earlier, the user fees imposed on people - and this strictly should be a user fee, I should think.

After all, the profit-oriented tourism industry, with which I'm in complete accord, should be, if the Minister is part of a government that forces university students to pay increased fees, forces people in care ho mes to pay incr eased amounts, forces everybody to become invol ved in user fees and restraint, that this government says, well, we give tourism because the other government did. It's a poor reason, Mr. Chairman, but I'm not surprised. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I guess I gave one of the reasons. I'm not trying to defend my previous statement.

This is something that's been done in the province for a long time. These group s in the region's Interlake, Central Plains, EastMan, Pembina Valley, WestMan, Parkland, and NorMan, are the same regions as the Reg ional Economic Development Associations within the province. They have attached to them, or sometimes separate organizations, which are the Tourist Association Organi zations within the provi nce. They have a president and they are a non-profit organization, Mr.

Chairman, who work for the benefit of tourism to help their commu nitie s, help the province of Manitoba, and to help create jobs by doing so, Mr. Chairman. They are a very very responsible group of people and when he refers to the increase, we were allowed, under the Destination Manitoba funds, Mr. Chairman, by agreement with the federal government, to make a further grant to them under the Destination program which is program number five, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, the ratio between the Travel Manitoba expendit ures and the total touri st expenditures going back several years, I was asked by the Honourable Member for Brandon East, we will get that information for him. MR. DE PUTY CHA IRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to give the Minister an opportunity to justify and defend one of the first pieces of legislation that he brought into this House for our consi deration and which, of course, it passed. You will recall, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the main issues during the 19 77 election campaign was the question of succession duties and our succession duties legislation. And you will also recall that not long after October 11 th, 19 77, this House was called into session and one of the few, the two or three pieces of legislation brought before it was the repeal of succession duties.

The argument put forth by the government was that the succession duties legislation, which the New Democratic Party go vernment -(Int erjec tion)- No w I hear from somebody chirping in the backbench, "What has this got to do with this branch ?" But obviously the mem bers of the backbench forget what they themselves were preaching to the people of the province of Manitoba during the months of September and October of 1977. And what they said was that our succession duties legislation was driving capital investment out of the province, that it was going elsewhere. Now, they have repealed that legislation.

And this Minister has had 2-1/ 2 years time, during which you could analyze the effect of the legislation that he brought in, he and his colleagues, and the bene fits, if any, to the province of Manitoba. So my question to the Minister is with respect to this particular branch, having repealed the succession duty legislation which was on the books on October 11 th of 19 77 and which subsequently was repealed by this government, could the Minister -(Int erjection)- Now the Minister of Agriculture, he 4960

Thursday, 19 June 1980 wants to make a speech, but here again he is attempting to make a speech in the manner in which he is most accustomed to do, from the seat of his pants. Now he is attempting to stand and interrupt me, Mr. Chairman, and I still have the floor as you know. And the Minister, if he's read the rule book, he knows that he can have his opportunity to get up and make his speech.

Now, my question to the Minister is, to the Minister of Economic Development, not that Minister, but the Minister of Economic Welfare, of Corporate Welfare, could he tell us to what extent have the people of Manitoba benefited within the - what does he call this, Travel Manitoba - within this area. To what extent have we benefited by the repeal of the succession duty legislation which they repealed. In other words, how many inv estment dolla rs was this Minis ter able to attract into the province of Manitoba, into the tourism industry?

By virtue of his repeal of our legislation, that he -(l nterjection)­ now what has this got to do with tourism? Now the member for wherever doesn't seem to understand, the Minister for Fitness doesn't seem to understand because this was their complaint that that legislation was keeping investment dolla rs out of the province and I want the Minister to tell me how many investment dolla rs was he able to attract into the tourism industry by going around, wherever, and sayi ng, look, here we are in the province of Manitoba, we repealed succession duties, come into our province and invest herein.

Could he tell us how many dollars did he attract? He will recall that his predecessor, the Minister who is now the Minister of Soccer and whatever it's called, softball, baseball. If you recall, very shortly after they were elected government, that he attached a figure. He said that when he was Minister of Corporate Welfare, he said we would reverse the trend and we had attracted - what was it, hundreds of millions or billions or a billio n-and-a-half -(I nterjection)- millions of dol lars back into the province of Manitoba. He had the figure.

Now he was responsibl e for the entire operations in economic devel opment for the province of Manitoba and I'm not asking the Minister that, how many dollars were attracted back into all sectors of indus trial and economic opera tions and development, but just with respect to tourism.

How many dollars was he able to attract back into the province, waving this bill which he passed in late November or early December of 19 77, by telling inv estors, look, we repealed this legislation passed by those socialists, succession duty legislation, now in Manitoba we pay no succession duties and we would like you to come in and inv est in our province. How many dollars was the Minister able to attract by virtue of that piece of legislation which he was so anxious to bring to the House and which he passed in 19 77? MR.

JOHNSTON: I didn't present the Bill to the House but I was part of the government on the Treasury Bench, Mr. Cha irman , and I was in agreement with that Bill. I've never travelled through the province waving that Bill, Mr. Chairman, so I couldn't tell him. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: I have one detail question and then I'd like to get back to the trend of tourism in Manitoba. My detail question is in regard to the Mexican office.

Can the Minis ter advise whether there is Spanish literature in the Mexican office, Spanish literature telling people about Manitoba, or is it literature in English? MR. JOHNSTON: The literature that was forwarded to the office, Mr. Chairman, was English literature. MR.

EVANS: Well, I guess there are some people in Mexico who read English, but I would think if the Min ister was really going to be serious ab out attracting Mexican tourists, as he said he is, then I would have thought that he would have seen to it that at least you had literature down there that the people could understand, that they would know where Manitoba is, and how you get here and what airline you take and, something about the beauties of the province and so on, and I would think that the fact that we only have English literature down there would mean that the Minister and his department are not taking this effort very seriously.

They're not taking the Mexican office venture very seriously. I would trust that if they are going to spend some money there, even though it's spent out of another appropri ation, Mani trade, it's still the taxpayers money, I would think that you might as well go all the way and at least print literature that the people in Mexico can read. It always helps to communicate in the peoples' own language.

At any rate, I'm not sure what else they do in Mexico, I know there are -(I nterjection)- in the Un ited States I'm sure the Mi nister shows commercials on television down in Minn esota or Grand Forks or wherever, in our natural market area, upper mid-West, telling the people about the virtues of having a holiday in Manitoba, the great things they can do spending their money here, having a good time and so on. But I'm wondering, do we do this in Mexico? Do we have commercials in Mexico on television, or do we have billb oards? -(I nterjection) I wish the Member for Wolseley would stop distracting me.

But I know the Minister is a very serious man, he doesn't treat anything lightly and I know he treats the Mexican office seriously, even though it's mainly trade, nevertheless the official propaganda agency said that it was both a trade and a tourist office. I just would suggest to the Minister, if you're going really be serious about this Mexican venture, that at least he have some Spanish literature, literature written in Spanish, and the Mexicans hav en't invented Mexican yet -(I nterjection)- At any rate, I would trust he would correct that matter.

Now on another item, I would like the Minister, because as we've pointed out, there's an .1crease of 40 percent here, even though I realize a lot of it is recoverable from Canada, 1. 8 million, but nevertheless there is a large increase of 40 percent asked for in this Travel Manitoba item. I'm wondering whether the Minister really expects to have a large increase as a result of this. The estimate for year I believe he said was 4.6 percent, and I think he 4961

Thursday, 19 June 1980 recognizes that there are many factors which have a bearing on the increase or decrease in travel. It is simply not a matter of how much you spend on promotion. Nevertheless we have this budget before us, more money is now being spent. What is the projection so far, what is the estimate so far for this year? How many tourists have come to Manitoba in the period January to May? I don't suppose - or maybe you don't have that, maybe January to April. I know Stats Canada does do estimates, they do monthly surveys and I believe it's made available to the department.

So I wonder if the Minister could tell the members of the House, what percentage increase thus far this year have we have had in travel into Manitoba? What is the percentage increase for this period, the latest available, let's say Jan uary to April, January to May, compared with that same period in 1979? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I can quote from the Stat. Canada, U.S. residents entering Manitoba from U.S. and it gives the increase of January to April 19 80 as 4.3 to date.

Tourist enquiries received from U.S. and Canada and from other areas is up January to May 1980 from U.S. 24.4, from other parts of Canada 26.2. MR. EVANS: In a more serious vein then, Mr. Chairman, I would think that the Minister should make a very concerted effort into the Un ited States. I know there have been tremendous efforts by the department over many many years, but really this is the time to appeal to Americans.

And I know there is probably more money being spent, but I suggest that this is the area that should be emphasized even more than it has been in the past because of the differential in the dollar, the 85 - 86 cent dollar, it's a good deal for the American tourist. And secondly, of course, we haven't, at least until now, experienced any actual gasoline shortages, which the Americans have experienced . And of course, yes, and the Member for Minnedosa is going to help us here, and also I think they realize that the price of gasoline here, Mr. Chairman, is a lot cheaper than in the United States.

So there are a lot of very sound economical reasons. Mind you there are other places to go in Canada where the dollar gives you that same advantage and I guess to some extent we compe te with northwestern Ontario, the Lake of the Woods area and so on, but I would trust that the Minister will tell us that of all this 5.5 million that he's got at his disposal this year, that even more than ever before he's going to put the emphasis in the American market. Will he tell us that, will he give us that assurance, Mr. Chairman? MR.

JOHNSTON: There has been a considerable increase in our advertising in the American market, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (1) - pass; (2)- pass the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think we're now nearing the end of the department and I assume that if we wrap it up shortly the Minister may be inclined to adjourn. He's not inclined to adjourn? That's fine, then we're prepared to continue. But I wanted to ask him a few more questions. One in particular is about the Winnipeg Convention Centre.

Tha t fa cility was buil t during our admi nistration, it was supported by the Weir government and was one of the items passed on in terms of, I guess, when the transfer of power came, I was told that the former Premier explained it to then Premier Schreyer, that this was one of the plans, one of the areas that the government was interested in, but it was our government that supported it and also fina nced some 7 odd million of that facility and I personally was one of the keenest supporters of that project in the New Democratic Government. Mr.

Chairman, what I wanted to ask the Minister about the Convention Centre was if he could indicate what kind of financial support he provides to that facility. And I also wanted to ask him about his co­ operation with the Department of Cultural Affairs, because one of the bigge st selling points that he makes in his pamphlets and that we can make when we're trying to attract people here, once you attract them to the Convention Centre, all you're doing in effect is tellin g them you have a physical facility which will hold so many thousand delegates, I think up to eight thousand, dependin g on the arrangement.

But what you have to do then is to sell them on recreation and cultural affairs and I just want to ask him ii he can describe his co-operative efforts with the Department of Cultural Affairs, which used to be always in conjunction with tourism. And in particular I wanted to ask him whether, well perhaps we could start there, Mr. Chairman. Maybe he could indicate what sort of funding he provides to the Convention Centre to promote and who his representatives are on the board, and also how he works with the Department of Cultural Affairs? MR. JOHNSTON: We have two people on the board, Mr.

Chairman, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism, and we have a person by the name of Peter von Stackelberg who is on the Winnip eg Convention Centre Board. We don't give any grants at all directly to the Winnipeg Convention Centre, Mr. Chairman. The Winn ipeg Convention Centre would probably benefit from some funding through the block grants to the city of Winn ipeg from the province of Mani toba, but we don't in th e Department of Tourism make any direct grants to the Convention Centre. The Department of Cult ural Affairs and ourselves work very closely together.

Gr ants are provided through the Department of Cultural Affairs which relate to the ethnic culture groups as far as the, I guess you'd call it the devel opment or the sus taining of their ethnic societies, is done through the Department of Cultural Affa irs. The ethnic groups such as Ukrainian festivals, Icelandic festivals, and others, can make grants to, can apply for grants through Destination Manitoba for advertising and if they qualify under the regulations, they then would - I can't say whether they'd be approved or not - but they can make a request to us for promotion of their ethnic gatherings. MR.

ACTING CHA IRMAN, Robert Wilson (Wolseley): The Honourable Member for Elmwood. 4962

Thursday, 19 June 1980 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to appeal to the Minister once again and ask him whether he wouldn't reconsider adjourning shortly because I can tell him that our response will be similar to his. If he wants to keep going we will tend to keep going, perhaps at greater length than we intended. I'm prepared to adjourn now. If he wants to keep going, I'm going to go till at least 11 :00 o'clock on this item, so it's up to him.

I mean, if he wants to play ball with the opposition, then that's fine, but if not, then I have to tell him his action will elicit a reaction and I again ask him whether he is prepared to adjourn or whether he just wants to keep going. (Int erjection)- Well, all right, I'll take that as a challenge and I think that we can easily fill in the time, there's no problem, Mr. Chairman. If the government wants to prolong the de bate I have no problem, I have a lot of material and I'm prepared to speak and my colleagues are prepared to join me. Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister about the Arts Program in terms of Cultural Affairs and the relation of his department to the attraction of tourists to Manitoba. One of the things that has always disturbed me is the fact that a lot of our cultural facilities in Manitoba are not open long enough. For example, we have a lot of facilities, we have a big investment in the Winnipeg Art Gallery; we have a big investment in the Manitoba Museum; we have a major investment in the Theatre Centre, Rainbow Stage, Planetarium, so on and so on, the problem being that the facilities often are not open in the evening.

As an example, a number of years ago the facilities were usually open a number of nights per week and because of funding problems, because of the restraint program which has been trumpeted by the go vernment with dis astrous effects (I nterjection)- Well, Mr. Chairman, my friend from Minnedosa, who has gasohol on the brain, is not listening to what I'm saying. I'm trying to say that one of the reasons that people come to Manitoba is because of the recreational and cultural facilities.

People come up here primarily to see either the natural beauty of the province or they come for the entertainment, the recreation and the cultural facilities. When you get conventions and you want to attract delegates to the co nvent ions, they're no t that in terested in the physical facilities. They are interested but they want to go where the action is, where there is shopping, restaurants, and so on and so forth.

I'm simply saying that the department must work with Cultural Affairs in an attempt to attract people and I'm saying that one of the weaknesses in the city of Winnipeg, that I'm specifically dealing with, is the fact that our cultural facilities are not open in the evenings and some of them are not open on the weekends, Mr. Chairman. And I'm saying to the Minister that when he is attempting to attract people to Manitoba he should be working very closely with the Minister of Cultural Affairs.

A few years ago he would have also been Minister of Cultural Affairs or a few years ago the Minister of Cultural Affairs also handled Tourism, so the two positions logically go together. I want to ask him whether he has ever attempted to persuade his colleagues in Cabinet about the possibility of keeping these facilities open in the evening, if he has attempted to provide more money for the cultural facil ities so that they could be kept open and so that they could attract more people.

Not that somebody comes up here, say an art buff from North Dakota or Minnesota, Chicago area or whatever, and wants to see our cultural heritage and then they are told that they can but it's only open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. So I wonder if the Minister could comment on that point. MR. ACTING CHA IRMAN: The Hono urable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I just finished a while ago explaining the logic of putting the two departments together and it was a government decision.

I just also, a few minutes ago, explained that the Minister of Cultural Affairs, and I have a lot of discussions about cultural affairs and tourism, I mentio ned that the grants to the cultur al organizations are done through Cultural Affairs. The other people that he speaks of, such as the Planetarium and Art Gallery and those, receive their funding from Cultural Affairs, they all have a board. There's the Arts Council that has some governing over them.

I would say that their boards have decided their hours on the basis of the traffic coming in and out of the centres, so there is no question that they know best when their volume time is and I haven't had any reports come to my office from tourists who have been disappointed that they aren't open. If the honourable member has some specific areas where he thinks that they should be open longer, such as our tourist centre he mention ed earlier in the building, I'd certainly take it up with the Minister of Cultural Affairs.

The organizations that I mention can come to the Department of Tourism for promotional funds through Destination Manitoba. MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the Member for Elmwood, I wonder if I might pass (gX3) because we're drifting from Grant Assistance. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, are you talking about the fact that we're on No.

(3) Grant Assistance? MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: We're on (gX3) and I fail to see where the debate is drifting away from the Grant Assistance into more of a . . . MR. DOERN: Well, all of this, Mr. Chairman, is on tourism in Manitoba and whether you pass items or not, I think we're entitled to deal in this

section with the attraction of tourists and to organizations that are specifically deal ing with this. I've been also talking about the Convention Centre, which I think is an integral part of the package that we're speaking ab out. No w the Min ister ju st said, and I'm responding to him, that if he could have information he would attempt to do something about it and I simply point out to him, when you deal with the cultural facilities, that they are closed most evenings and some weekends.

I'm simply saying t' .at people who come up here and expect to benefit from the cultural facilities of Manitoba, last and least among them, our own citi zens, they're the on es who probably suffer the most. They cannot even get into these buildings that cost tens of millions of dollars to construct and I think that really is a sad commentary on the government's policy. I think it's unfortunate 4963

Thursday, 19 June 1980 that we are spending - we spent already, not we are spending - we have spent millions and millions of dollars to construct facilities which then are not given the operating grants to be open. The Minister made a very interesting admission.

He said that it was more logical to have the departments together, Cultural Affairs and Tourism, and I agree with him entirely, that is in fact the logic of the situation, that the two depa rtment s are complementary and if they are split, as they have been for the first time, at least in my experience as a member since 19 66, I think this was a mistake and an admission of an error. If that has been done, then the only way that this Minister can operate properly and vice versa, is to closely co-ordinate his operation with the Department of Cultural Affairs.

The other thing I wanted to ask him was in relation to the Convention Centre which he provides some funding for, I guess either directly or through the Winn ipeg Convention and Visitors Bureau. I wonder whether he has ever provided money or whether the Convention Centre people have ever provided funds to encourage the display, if not the sale, at least the display of Manitoba Arts and Handicr afts. Now I'm not thinking of the recent exhibition of the Canada Council Art Bank which caused quite a furor in the city.

I'm just thinking of the fact that a lot of people come to the Convention Centre, thousands upon thousands of delegates. Some of them don't get outside the building. Some of them I guess go to the Holiday Inn and spend most of their time in Winnipeg going from the hotel, through the Overpass into the Convention Centre and back again. It strikes me that it would be productive if they were able to see exhibitions of paintings and sculpture and so on.

The other point I want to make to the Minister and this again has to do with attracting people to Manitoba because he has to sell, he has to go out with his pamphlets and his salesmen and his Golden Girl, he has to go around the country and promote the cultural side of the province in conjunction with his colleague. And one of the things that's often bothered me that, like any other places, a lot of the activity does not take place during the summer. There is only a certain amount of sportin9 activity taking place in the summertime.

For instance, I'll give you an example, hockey, of course, doesn't take place in the summer; football starts now but doesn't really get going into high gear until the fall; horse racing is fortunatly on in the summer and that attracts a lot of people. In addition to Rainbow Stage, we have - (Interjection)- well, we have fishing, yes, but I was thinking of cultural affairs. That's sort of agriculture. I'm thinking ... well, the Minister of Agriculture doesn't seem to grasp the significance of that point. His mind is parched at the moment. Mr.

Chairman, the point that I'm making here is that the famous cultural facilities, if you get a pamphlet on Manitoba you will see that the Trumpet, the Winnipeg Ballet and all sorts of things like that, then somebody comes here and they say, well, you have to come back in the winter because the season runs from September, October to March . -(l nterjection)­ Well, you think about that. So, Mr. Chairman, I'm simply saying that when you're selling the province and you're selling the cultural side, what happens when people come and they find out -(I nterjection)- Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to stop.

I'm afraid of stopping at that point. I want to say that people come up here to see these things and then they find out that they're only available in the fall.

So I'm saying to the Minister, has he ever considered, would he consider saying to people, talking to his colleague, talking to people in the cultural community, about having them put on special shows in the summer for the specific purpose of attracting tourists? -(Int erjection)- Yes, we have various festivals, but I'm also saying our well­ established groups like the symphony and the ballet and the Manitoba Theatre Centre, they are more or less out of action in the summer and it might be a good idea to promote a special number of weeks or a special month or someth ing, where someone coming to Manitoba could sample some of these cultural delights.

So I ask the Minister if he has any remarks on that. MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: (g)(3)- pass - the Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: I think the Minister is going to reply, before you pass it. MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Tourism. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would consider speaking to the Minister of Cultural Affairs about that. There is, I believe, under Cultural Affairs - in fact there is - called the Festival Manitoba and they do have dancing in the park; they have band concerts in the park; they're put on by the performing arts groups and they have some funding through the Lotteries Fund.

Under this appropriation, Mr. Chairman, the (g)(3) 181 ,300, and it's 14 6,0 00 to the Tour ist and Convention Associations and 35,000 for grants which are applied for by the development of festivals and other historical or theme tourist attraction events. If it's a one-day affair it's 500, a two-day affair it's 1, 500, a three-day affair it's 2,5 00.00. We have 35,000 for that and that makes up the 181. 3, Mr. Chairman. MR. EVANS: I couldn't hear because of noise from the other side there. There was one big item which I think in this expenditure of 181 ,300 to the Tourist and Convention Centre of Manitoba.

I wonder if the Minister could repeat that figure - and I think that's what he said, the Tourist and Convention Centre of Manitoba - and what was that amount and how does that compare with the amounts given to that organization over the past year or two years? MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Tourism. MR. JOHNSTON: The Tourist and Convention Association of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, it's the same as last year. I just outlined it quite extensively to the Member for St.

Johns not very long ago, the 14 6,000 and the way it's formu lated to the Interlake, Central Plains, EastMan and Pembina Valley, WesMan, Parkland and NorMa n regions; they're non-profit organizations, Mr. Chairman. 4964

Thursday, 19 June 1980 MR. EVANS: My question was also of that 14 6,000, how does that compare with last year and let's say, the year before? Because the total amount shown here is, there's no increase from the previous year, the 181 ,300, there's no increase here. I realize there's in creases elsewhere but unde r Gr ant Assistance per se, there's no inc rease. So, was the amount of 14 6,000, is that the same amount that the Tourist and Convention Centre got in 1979 as of March 31, I guess it would 197 9-80, and how does it compare with the amount received the year before?

In other words, is there no incr ease for this organization and if not, why not? MR. JOHNSTON: It's been the same for a number of years, Mr. Chairman, and the 14 6,000 is this year and also they will receive an amount - because I made an announcement on it - of 13 0,000 which will be through Destination Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. EVANS: I don't un derstand how that Destination Manitoba, 130,000 necessarily dovetails with the 14 6,000.00. I understand the 14 6,000 is broken down by that association for the various regions of the province, Interlake, EastMan, WesMan and so on.

I'm surprised that there's no increase per se of this type of grant considering inflation is running between 9 and 10 percent. Now the Minister says, but there's an additional 13 0, 000 for Destination Manitoba. I would like to know, why would you not put the 13 0,000 in with this Grant Assistance lin e? If it's Gr ant Assistance for Destination Manitoba, why isn't it in there? If there is some explanation for that I'd like to hear it, but I don't understand why it would be separated. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the Destination Manitoba Program . . . the strength in organizations and for extra funds for more promotion, etc., through to the Tourism and Convention Association. The agreement we have with the federal government is a 60-40 agreement and the Management Committee, between the province and the federal government, agreed and recommended that those funds come through Destination Manitoba and I think it's a logical way to do it because the federal government pays 60 percent of it, Mr. Chairman. MR. EVANS: Yes. In effect then, do you have a two-tier system at work here?

I don't know why you have this line at all, Grants, why not pay the whole works out of Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement? I'm a great believer in using as many dollars as you can get from Ottawa and if you're getting 60 cents Ottawa, 40 cents Manitoba, it seems to me that it would be worthwhile •o put the entire amount. Why have any line there, Grant Assistance of 181 ,300.00? We could get by with only 40 percent of that.

There may be some explanation why you can't do that, but surely if you can save the taxpayers 60 percent of that, then I think the Minister has an obligation to put those gr ants under the Canada -Manitoba Tourism Agreement as well. So I wonder if he could explain that. MR. JOHN STO N: I explain it this way, Mr. Chai rman, it's an agreement from the federal government. When we signed the agreement or when the agreement was nego tiated, the federal government said that they would not participate on ongoing programs, they would participate in new programs.

And the 13 0,000 is promotion for new programs and the federal government, on all our agreements, do not support programs that have been ongoing. MR. EVANS: The 13 0,000 then, the appropriation is called Destination Manitoba. What's so dif ferent regarding that program compared to other things that have been done for years, the regular program of the Tourist and Convention Centre and their various regional groups? Are they doing something dif ferent with the 13 0, 000 , or is it simply a supplement to the 146,0 00.00?

In other words, is it really and truly a grant which is comparable to past grants but has simply been given another name? If it's given another name, then I don't know why you can't abolish all old programs and come up with a new program to give it a new name, if that's how you 're supposed to get more money under the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement. But I'd like to kn ow, what is so different ab out the 13 0, 000 Destination Manitoba compared to the regular grant program? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, we're fairly honest people, Mr. Chairman.

We sat down and ironed out an agreement with the federal government in good faith. We felt that the 60-40 program that we signed with the Tourism Development was one that will benefit tourism and in the case of the 130,000 it will be through the Tourist and Convention Association - not Centre, Tourist and Convention Association of Manitoba - to the di fferent regions with their boards of di rectors in the different areas, working with the boards of directors who, Mr. Larke is the chairman of and we believe - I'm not sure of the new president - it was Lorne Aikin.

Lorne Aikin is still the president and they present to the association new programs within their area or, in the case of a program that they feel is very good and they didn't have enough funds previously to expand it, tha t is taken into consideration as well and those are the agreements that we made with the federal government. MR. EVANS: In talking about honesty, I'm not suggesting that the Min ister do anything that is di shone st.

But it sounds to me tha t there is something dishonest here, something very dishonest here, because the Minister just finished explaining the reason why Grant Assistance hasn't increased is because we can get money from the agreement. I'm sure that the Tourist and Convention Association cannot do the same with the 181 ,300 next year as they did with it last year simply because we've got inflation nearing 10 percent. There's no way they can do the same thing. So it's obvious that they're leaning on the 13 0,000 Destination Manitcoa to do what they've done in the past.

Surely you're not telling me that they can do the same thing. So to me, Mr. Chairman, there's a degree of - I won't call it dishonesty - but deception or whatever is a polite parliamentary term, juggling, manipulation and so on. But as I said before, Mr. Chairman, I'm in favour of signing agreements with Ottawa to get as many 4965

Thursday, 19 June 1980 federal dollars as we can, but there's no question in my mind that if this appropriation Grant Assistance does not go up and you'r e lean ing on another program, that you are using funds with a different name for the same purpose. To me it's a bit of a deceptive exercise that we're engaged in here. MR. JOHNSTON: Briefly, the member is wrong. He talks about inflation, 10 percent of 130,000, if you subtract it, it still leaves a very big increase for these people in the rural areas like Interlake and what have you, for them to expand their programs.

When it was announced at their convent ion, they were very very appreciative of the fact that they were able to get it through Destination Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: Unde r (g)(3) - the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister to give us an explanation of the Destination Manitoba program; that is the purpose of the program and then indeed the formula. MR. ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order please. I wonder if we can pass (g)(3) then and then we'll get on to Destination Manitoba? (g)(3)-pa ss. The Member for Lac du Bonnet on (g)(4). MR.

EVANS: All right, that's fine. Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would outline to us what the intentions of the department are with respect to this join t program, federal and provincial, which is cost-shared on a 60-40 basis, I would like to know just what the government is expecting to achieve by this program, what the program entails, does it involve public relations or does it involve grants to entrepeneurs in the tourist industry, does it in volve the development of new facility, what is all involved or is it similar to Enterprise Manitoba and if so, in what way and what are the criteria? MR.

JOHNS TON: The Des tination Manitoba Agreement, Mr. Chairman, is in six sections. This is the Agreement here. The sections of the Destination Manitoba program are - maybe it would be easier if we gave these to the honourable members and they could follow it much easier, Mr. Chairman. Briefly, Mr. Chairman, this agreement is a five-year 20 million program, it's 60/40 and expires on March 31, 19 84. The agreement is designed to strengthen the destination areas in the province and to improve the productivity of the industry through joint industry and government action.

These programs prov iding 16 ,500 for capital as