ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 38A- 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 16 MARCH, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 16 March, 19 81 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bi rtle­ Russell): I may point out to all members that there is an experiment on lighting going on today for the purpose of television. If members find it bothers their work at all, I'm sure the Rules Committee would be pleased to hear the comments of ind ividual members. Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees ... Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion .

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris), on behalf of the Attorney-General, introduced Bill No. 41, The Statute Law Amendment Act, 19 81. (Recommended by His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor). MR. JORGENSON , introduced Bill No. 42,

An Act to amend The City of Winnip eg Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this particular time I would like to int roduce to you 25 students from Ste. Anne Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Norman Lavack and this school is in the cons ti tuenc y of the Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. We also have 30 students from Kildonan East Regional and Exchange Students from Labrador under the direction of Mr. Wedlake. This school is in the constituency of the Ho nourable Member for Kildonan. We have 15 students of Grade 6 standing from St. Maurice School under the direction of Mrs.

Joseph and this school is in the cons ti tue ncy of th e Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all the honour able members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEV (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Finance. In view of the tax changes which occurred last year pertaining to the property tax credit and the cost of living tax credit, can the Mi nister advise whether or not the Member for St.

Matthews, when ind icating that the changes were the result of a stupid error, whether the Minister of Finance can ind icate whether or not he was speak ing on behalf of the Conser vative caucus, on behalf of the government of the Province of Manitoba, in so describing the changes as a stupid error insofar as they effected the low income and senior citizens of this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Mi nister of Finance. 1695 HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEV: Further to the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister of Finance indic ate whether or not the government intends to bring in any legislation to return to the · New Democratic party formula which was in existence prior to last year's Budget. MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker. The intention of the White Paper programs I think had been fairly clearly outlined in the Budget and in the White Paper document and pointed out that we were attempting to dir ect resources to those areas where they were needed most.

We said in the Budget that the program would be monitored because there was some indication that there might be impacts that were not entirely desirable and that might have to be ironed out at a future time; that monitoring is taking place. We are generally satisfied with the dir ection that the reforms have taken. MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Speaker, then further, in view of the criticisms that were launched by the official opposition last year to the changes insofar as the hardships that were created upon the low income and families and senior citizens in this province, in view of the fact the Mini ster has ind icated that generally he is in agreement, as a result of his monitoring, can the Mini ster however indi cate whether or not there will be any changes to the present legis lation in order to remove wha t we suggested, Mr. Speaker, last year in this Chamber, were detrimental effects upon low income and senior citizen families in this province?

MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'm not entirely certain as to what recommendations the members opposite made but I know on the historical record that one is wise to question very closely the recommendations of the members opposite. We are, as I said, generally happy with the direction of the program.

A good deal of the problems that have come forward have been problems of perception because there are three or four areas where benefits are available to recipients and sometimes there may be a reduction on one hand but there is an offsetting gain in another type of program; the Property Tax Credit as opposed to the Cost of Living; SAFER as opposed to the Cost of Living. There are some areas where there may be net losers, Mr . Sp eaker.

But in gener al, we have attempted to dir ect funds to those areas where they are needed most; in general, we are very satisfied with the program; we are looking at the areas of concern to see if changes should be made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, just to follow up on that line of questioning. Is the Minister of Fina nce confirmin g tha t it is the view of the government that people, whose only income is Old Age Security, should suffer a red uction of tax benefits from the Province of Manitoba under that program?

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker, in principle we do not take that position. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister confirm then that he is prepared to make major revisions because, I'm certain, Mr. Speaker, that he is aware that many people of medium and low income, and many pensioners, are suffering a net reduction of benefits, all things considered. I just happened to do a tax return for one pensioner who is out $21 and all the income they have is the pension and they receive $21 less in Property Tax Credits because of the formula.

MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a situation such as tha t might occur. I know of one situa tion, for instance, wher e becaus e the amount of taxes, property taxes, being paid was below the previous rebate, then they were not able to benefit from the rebate. We have been looking, Mr. Speaker, for specific instances of such situations and I have to be able to examine a number of those to know whether or not there are actual losses, or whether there are perceived losses. I would welcome rece iving information from the Honourable Member from Lac du Bon net if it would help to out line a specific problem. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very prepared to outline tens of thousands of such specific problems, of at least two dozen income tax returns that I have seen in the last two weeks, every one of them shows a net reduction in benefits ranging from Old Age Pension income only, to a scale all the way up to $1 2,000 - $13, 000.00. So ther efore the Mi nister can not tell me that it's only the odd exception Mr. Speaker. If the Minister wants to look at the record MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest the honourable member may be debating. If he's seeking information, he may ask a question. MR. USKIW: All right. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Finance whether he recognizes the impact that the change is having on hundr eds of thousands of tax filers but, in particular, on the medium and lower income groups. Does he not know the difference in the calculation formula? Does he understand the di fference between reporting net income and taxable income on your retu rn? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I ha ve already acknowledged that there might be some problem areas, but we see the nature of the exaggeration among the honourable members opposite.

The first time he phra sed the qu est ion it was tens of thousands, the next he phrased the question it was hundreds of thousands, Mr. Speaker. I therefore am quite prepared and would welcome receiving from the honourable member specific circumstances that would help us all to deal more effectively in providing the needs and req uir ements to the people of Manitoba. Exaggeration of that nature Mr. Speaker, doesn·t help the issue. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member with a new question. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Sp eaker, I wish to ask the Honourable Minister whether a $15 million in his own Estima tes book this year, shown as a reduction in tax credit benefits, is an exaggeration of my comments? MR. RANS OM: Mr. Sp eaker, the honourable member is comparing apples and oranges. When the program was brought in it was pointed out that there would be adjustments; that there would be levels of income where people would not get the benefits and that those finds would be dir ected to those people who needed them most.

Only a few minutes ago, the honourable member tried to tell this House and the people of Manitoba that hundr eds of thousands of people were losers. Then I ask him Mr. Speaker, well I can't ask him but rhetorically, where does he think the $15 million are going? They are going to people that have been targeted as having needs that must be met Mr. Speaker, that's what the program is designed to do. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is di rected to the Minister responsible for Highways.

I wonder if the Minister can inform the House when he's contemplating imposing the road restrictions this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Highw ays. HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Well Mr. Sp eaker, the mild weather th at we'v e been experiencing this winter will, in all likelihood, require an earlier than previous years implementation of the road restriction program and deflection readings are going to be taken this week.

Depe nding on the outcome of those read ings, we may well be instituting in Southern Manitoba some restrictions on certain asphalt surface-treated roads as early as next week, Mr. Speaker. MR. BLAKE: I thank the Minister for tha t information Mr. Speaker. I wondered, in view of the weather conditions, should they prevail at the current pre-seasonal warm rate, does he cont emplate a longer road restriction period this year. MR. ORCHARD: At this stage of the game, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't anticipate road restrictions being on for a longer period of time than any other year.

However, if we did run into a stretch of wet, cooler weather and the frost did not come out of the road grades as quickly as normal we may have to extend them but at this stage of the game it would appear as if just an earlier implementation date and, of course, accompanied by hopefully an earlier relief date from restrictions with the same period of time required for the roads to be restricted . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Finance, since, as indicated by us last year, during the deba te on the legislation change 1696

Monday, 16 March, 1981 reducing certain benefits of tax credits from certain classes, we indicated then it had become apparent that an example of a couple of elderly persons with no other income are now being given a lesser amount of money because their two incomes are lumped together for deduction from the allowance, rather than that as formerly of the higher income only.

In view of the fact that kind of specific case is clearly a reduction in benefits from the tax scheme, will the Minister be prepared to investigate and report back to us the estimated number of people adversely affected in that way without necessarily taking into account or using separately any statistics based on reductions because of inclusion of SAFER programs or any of that kind? I'm asking the Minister specifically about that one obvious, most obvious, method of reducing the benefits to elderly taxpayers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Sp eaker, the member is directing his question on the false premise that the programs are directed only towards elderly people. The programs were directed towards people in need. I think there were on the one hand, the $15 million reduction, on the other hand $30 million worth of benefits. There are child-related income supplements and there are sup plem ents for pensi oners and general income supplements as well. It's not possible to take one program out of context of the other, Mr. Speaker, but we did say that we would be monitoring the effects, naturally.

It is not our intention to penalize pensioners; our intention was to provide benefits to people who needed bene fits, Mr. Speaker, and if our monitoring shows that people who need benefits have been penalized, then we will be looking to see what changes can be made to correct that situation. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr. Sp eaker, we'r e getting somewhere now. In view of the fact that I, for one, agree with the Member for St.

Matthews in calling this change a stupid error, relating as it does specifically to both the elderly and to working couples whose income is now lumped together and used 1 percent as a reduction of the benefits, and therefore, everything else being even, are receiving less this year than they did last year because of the change of program. Will the Minister at least agree to take into consideration the advisability of restoring to those people, from whom benefits have been removed, an amount at least equivalent to what they have lost and I would suggest Cost of Living on top of that; would he consider that? MR.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I think the question was perhaps more general than I could respond to with a simple yes or no. When the progrm was established we knew that certain people would lose benefits and that in certain circum stances they should lose the benefits - a situation for instance where one person may have a high income in a family, another person ha d a low income and together they qu alif ied for more benefits than a situation where there was only one income or where there were two equal incomes. Our purpose is to provide benefits to people who need it.

If, within the 1697 question that the member has framed, there are people who need benefits and who are not getting them and in fact may have had them taken away, Mr. Speaker, our mon itoring program is intended to discover those situations and we will then look at what possibilities there are for making corrections, without restoring some of the inequities that were in the system previously. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a final supplementary. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the tax forms are out and it is obviously too late to correct that stupid error, quoting the Member for St. Matthews, this year to, restore to those people who suffered this year the moneys that were taken away from them by way of benefits, will the Minister undertake, by the time he brings in his Budget, to attempt to make amends in some way and to correct it so that it could be dealt with this year rather than wait another year and effect only the future year and lose this year's benefits as so many have lost them in the specific manner in which I' ve described it? MR.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I think it was evident from my answers previously that we were prepared to examine the program to see where it is meeting the intent of the program, where it was not meeting it and we will then attempt to make whatever adjustments we can that will be in the interests of providing benefits to the people that we want to see with the benefits. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister responsible for Autopac.

Can the Minister please tell the Ho use why the Autopac officials are this year refusing to answer qu est ions on radio programs, contrary to their previous policy? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Government Services. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member will have an opportunity to pos e that question to the Autopac officials on Thursday when they appear before the Committee on Public Utilities. MS. WESTBURY: Well, obviously the Minister isn't prepared to answer any questions about Autopac, I got the same answer last week.

Can the Minister then tell us whether it was by his instruction that officials are refusing to appear on radio programs to answer questions? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I can answer that quest;on because there have been no instructions issued by my department to anyone in Autopac regarding answering of questions; they are free to answer questions that they choose. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: Well, then I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to tell us whether he knew of

Monday, 16 March, 1981 any decision and from where it came, that officials should not appear on radio programs to answer the questions of the public. MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any such decision on the part of Autopac and I'm not too sure that I want to accept my honourable friend's word that that is a fact. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Health with regard to funding of nursing homes.

Is the Honoura ble Minister satisfied that his department or, more specifically, the Manitoba Health Services CommisSion has provided adequate funds this year for nursing homes in the province, including private homes, to allow for wage settlements in line with provincial averages or standards for health workers in these institutions? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (FORT GARRV): Yes, Mr. Speaker, those calculations were reckoned into the Op erat ing Bu dget of the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission for the fiscal year '8 1- 82. MR.

EVANS: I thank the Honourable Minister for the answer, Mr. Speaker, and ask him a supplementary question. In as much as there is an indus trial dispute pending over rates of pay at Central Park Lodges, both in Brandon and Winnip eg, would he undertake to look into the matter specifically, that is the funding of these homes specifically, and satisfy himself that MH SC payments are adequa te to provide for a reaso nable settlement with the health wor ker s involved? MR. SHERMAN: Well, I'll do that, Mr.

Speaker, but I repeat that th e budget is adequate and I don' t accept the excuse that has been offered by some spokesmen in con nect ion with some of th ose negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, according to information provided by the Honourable Minister's Department, MHSC, Central Park Lodges in Brandon obtain net payments per bed considerably above the average payments for non-profit nursing homes.

Could the Honourable Minister then indi cate why it is that the wage rates of private homes such as Central Park Lodges in Brandon are well below the so-called universal or standard wage rate prevailing in the province for comparable occupations. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether the Honourable Member for Brandon East is talking about wage rates or the per diem that is applied to the personal care homes. Wage rates? Mr. Speaker, I can't answer that question. There's a certain budge t that is struck to meet the staffing patterns of nursing ho mes whether the y're proprietary or non-proprietary.

The per diem that's paid to the proprietary operators is the median paid in the non-prop field and th ere are adjustments made depending on the breakdown in catego ries of beds, as to whether they're Level 2, 3 or 4 nursing care requirements. They are all done in such a way as to provide the necessary payroll for staff that meets those payrolls that are generally accepted throughout the system in the province. I repeat what I said before; there is sufficient in the budget to do th at.

I don't accept the excuse tha t has been proffered by some spokesman on the propietary ownership management side at this point in those two particular situations where industrial negotiations are under way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to addr ess a question to the Minister of Government Services who on March 6th undertook to make enquiries and to advise me regarding the reasons for the delay in filing of returns, one of which is some two years old and one several that are about a year old, in the filing of the Orders for Returns.

I wonder if the Minis ter is ready now to inform us? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Government Services. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, as I indica ted, I would refer that matter to the Government House Leader, which I did. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Sp eaker, although the Minister now says he ind icated he would refer it to the House Leader, he did not do so on March 6th. I was frankly counting on him to help me out to get these responses. I wonder if I may at least ask him to either make further enquiries or to refer it again to the House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

RONALD McBRVDE: Mr. Sp eaker, in the absence of the Minister of Norhern Affairs I wonder if I could ask the First Mi nister whether or not it is his belief that welfare is better value than economic development and job creation in Northern Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. L VON (C harleswood): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member gives me a rare oppor tuni ty to make an extended answer to a que stion which I will, Sir, paying heed to your injunctions of recent months, attempt not to do; except to say to him that the Go vernment of Manitoba at the present time is carrying on those policies, with respect to the north and the south, in terms of unemployment, that are best calculated to meet the needs of the people of the remote areas.

I must say, cont rary to the phi losophy tha t was espoused and practiced by my honourable friends opposite, that make-work jobs at any cost were the forte of the day, the Government of Manitoba was authorized by the people of Manitoba in 19 77 to put a stop to a lot of that and we did. 1698

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that this government has cut out programs of long-term economic development and job creation, as well as programs that were temporary, to take the place of welfare, I wonder if the Minister could tell the House, could explain to the House, why the amount paid out in welfare in Northern Manitoba since he came to office has increas ed, because more people are requi red to receive welfare; and what, if anything, his government intends to do to end this welfare cycle that he is part of causing in Northern Manitoba? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I don't have the benefit of the exact figures in front of me but, subject to correction, I believe the figures are in this order, that the number of people on welfare in Manitoba today are on the order of about 19 ,000. When we came into office in 19 77 the number of people on welfare were on the order of about 26,000. I think those figures speak for themselves, Mr. Speaker. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I was talking to the Minister about unemployed employables in Northern Manitoba, not people who are cut off benefits in the south by this Minister, and cut off Medicare ... MR. SPEAKER: Order Please.

If the honourable member has a question he may ask his question now. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll rephrase my original qu estion to the Fir st Mini ster because obviously he didn't understand it. I was not asking the Fir! Minister about people who were cut off of medical benefits and thereby reducing the number of people in receipt of Social Assistanc e, by his def inition, I was asking him about the severe unemployment problem in Northern Manitoba which he said he was going to do something about and which he has done nothing about.

Does this government intend to do anything at all about that problem we have in the north, or do they intend to sit back and do nothing and give people welfare instead of creating worthwhile and permanent jobs? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I can assur e my honourable friend that the Government of Manitoba remains commi tted to the pol icy of provi din g meaningfu l, long-term job s for the people of Manitoba, not socialist, make-work, welfare jobs of the type my honourable friend was only interested in. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

If I may have the indulgence of the House to introduce 22 students of junior high standing from the Hugh J. MacDonald School. This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. On behalf of the honourabl e memb ers, we welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister reporting for Manitoba Hydro.

The Minister is reported in the press today as saying that the Saskatchewan and Alberta Governments must reach a decision by the 16 99 end of April if they wish to join Manitoba in a Western Canada Power Grid. I'd like to ask the Minister whether this ultimatum has been communicated to the Governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I have not read the press report referred to by the Member for St.

Vital, but in general terms, I have indicated that April is the last month that we've been told by the engineering people when both Alberta and Manitoba can meet their obligations for the planning and construction of future power requirements in either of the provinces. From that point of view, April is accepted as a deadline date from that point of view by both the Provinces of Alberta and Manitoba. MR. WALDING: Mr. Sp eaker, a supple ment ary question.

I'd like to ask the Minister whether it is this government's policy to proceed with such a western connection in the event that there is not agreement between Alberta and Saskatchewan? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Sp eaker, I think I heard the member correctly, but I'm not sure. I think he asked whether Manitoba would proceed with a western connection without Alberta and Saskatchewan. If in fact that were the question, I would have to say, highly unlikely, Mr. Speaker MR. WALDING: A fur ther suppl ement ary, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Minister then telling the House that Manitoba will abandon its plan for a western interconnection unless an agreement is reached with our two western neighbours by April 30th? MR. CRAIK: I think Mr. Speaker, we're getting into the area of the hypothetical with that one. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. RUSSEL L DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister and ask him whether he was serious when he suggested that he might meet with the Prime Minister privately to resolve the Constitutional deadlock? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I was responding to a question at a meeting on Saturday as to whether or not I would be prepared, in certain circumstances, to have such a meeting and I answered, I believe, in words to this effect, that I had been known on, I hope, many occasions to take good advice and if that turned out to be good advice, in the forseeable future, of course it would be followed. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Premier whether he honestly believes, and in view of his track record with the Prime Mini ster of the country, thumbing his nose at him in public and holding his nose in response to his program and proposals for the Constitution, tha t he think s tha t the Prime Minister would give him the time of day?

Mo11day, 16 March, 1981 MR. LYON: Well. it's obvious Mr. Speaker, i.hat the present Prime Minister of Canada is prepared to give much more time of day to any wandering :;ocialist who comes along, like Mr. Broadbent, and in that connection. I admit I have a disability. I'm one of seven Conservative Premiers in Canada, Jut our government still happens to represent the pl!ople of Manitoba. I must say also, Mr. Speaker, without wanting to probe the nonsensical too far with the member from Elmwood or to get into his world entirely that. Mr.

Speaker, it was the Prime Minister of Canada who suggested, if I may use the �.ction to go with it, that the Parliament of Great Britain should hold their nose while they pass his legislation. When I was using that gesture I was referring, not tiJ myself Mr. Speaker, but to the Prime Minister of Canada who is obviously a good friend of the Memher from El mwood and his party. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: My question i:; to the First Minister. In view of his answers to my colleague from The Pas, I wonder if he would be prepared, Mr.

Speaker, to go to Northern Manitoba to some of the communi ties who are suffering high denrees of unem ployment and explain to the unemplo yed people in these communit ies, and the bu sin ess people in these communities, why his government is giving priority to welfare rather than to work opportunities. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are � number of areas in Northern Manitoba where members of this government ar e qu ite happy to go to demonstrate actions that have been taken by the government with respect to projects in the northern communiti es and projects which, in turn, have provided some work responsibilities for the people of the area.

There are a good number of those at the present time, as a matter of fact, there's a very expensive secondary school being built in Norway House; there are other projects planned for Norway House with respect to a bridge in that area and if my honoura ble friend wants, when Northern Affairs Estima tes are before the House, I'm sure that we can detail a number of the other projects that are going on in Manitoba which are, may I say, eminently superior in terms of providing work opporl unities to local people and long-term public works benefits to local people. rather than making houses which had to sell for $10 0,000 and couldn't compete with those that sold for $40,000; if my honourable friend and his party still believe that they should go amund the province ere cting buggy whip factori es. when nobody's prepared to buy buggy whips, tl1at's their business. not ours.

MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister would be surprised if he made those kinds of statements in Northern Manitoba, if he found the people in the north holding their noses when they listen to his statements. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't be surprised at any nonsense uttered by the honourable member. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, to the Mini ster responsible for Flyer.

Can the Mini sle r advise 1700 whether or not the billings pertaining to the Woods Gordon report, Woods Gordon Consultants, in their efforts to obtain purchasers for Flyer, have been routed through his department, rather than through Flyer? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. I can ind icate to the Leader of the Opposition, I believe that this study was carried on by the Manitoba Development Corporation. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then further to the Minister, it's my understanding that the billings have been routed, either through the Minister's department or through the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister, at the same time as he accepts my question as notice, advise as to the amounts that are involved in those billings on the part of Woods Gordon in their attempts, apparently worldwide, to obtain purchasers for Flyer? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the latter question is more appropriate for an Order for Return. I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that he follow the routine procedu res of the Ho use to gain those figures.

I will undertake to confirm, or otherwise, that the work is paid for through the MDC although it has been under my direction as the Minister of Finance or under the current ministry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, while the First Minis ter's in the mood for trying to jus tif y his govern ment 's action or inaction in the north, I wonder if the First Minister could indicate to us when the new Northlands Agreement will be signed by his government; agreement that has been delayed and poor planning and procrastination on the part of his governme nt; I wonder if he could indi cate yet whether there's a date by which this new agreement will be signed. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Sp eaker, the new Northern Development Agreement is one that we hope will be concluded as soon as possible.

AlthJugh there is a desire on behalf of the Federal Government to see the number of agreements that are under way and being negotiated at present all concluded at the same time. Because the Northern Development Agreement was to some extent and extension of the Northland Agreement, we actually had hoped to have that concluded at the earliest possible opportunity. I can say, Mr. Speaker, that any indication that federal civil servants have made to the media about the lack of enthu siasm by the Provincial Go vernment to pr oceed to develop a Northern Dev elopment Agreement is entirely untrue. MR.

McBRYDE: I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether, if the agreement is not signed by the end of the fiscal year, whether there'll be any programs that'll have to be cut from the few existing programs that are left, whether any of these will have to be cut if this agreement isn't signed by the end of the fiscal year. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, that will largely be up to the Federal Government to determine based upon

Monday, 16 March, 1981 the decisions they make. I have had communication with the Federal Minister in charge of DREE pointing out to him the difficulties that would arise from the provincial perspective if the new agreements were not made retroactive to April 1s t. Certainly it is our intention to proceed with the programming that we have outlined and I would hope that the Federal Government would realize the importance of them making the agreement retroactive to April 1s t as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, I'd like to address my final supplementary to the First Minister. I'd like to ask the First Minister when he will give the people of Northern Manitoba a chance to pass their comment or their opinions on his government by calling a provincial election. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, we'll be happy to give the people of Northern Manitoba and Southern Manitoba the opportun ity to pass judgment on this government's reclamation of the worst inheritance that any government in the history of this province ever took over; we'll be happy to have them pass judgment upon the first phase of that reclamation project within the legal time required by the statute. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question also to the First Minister with regard to oil pricing in Canada. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier rejected my suggestion a few days ago that Manitoba play the role of mediator between Edmonton and Ottawa with regard to arriving at a settlement on oil pricing policy in Canada. Now that it appears that Mr. Lalonde and Mr. Leach of the Al berta government appear to be coming to Winnipeg in the near future to have discussions, will the Premier of this province now offer his good offices to do ever ything pos sible to fac ilita te discussions between Alberta and Ottawa in order that some agreement might be reached between these two levels of government? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, we're delighted to see that the two Ministers are getting together again and that they are getting together in the City of Winnipeg.

I can answer my honour able friend 's qu estion better by saying that it might be helpful if we had some representation from the sliver socialist party in Ottawa to respond to the call of the 10 Premiers of Canada for an Economic Conference to be held very very shortly to deal with the fundamental problems of the economy in Canada and, at the same time, to respond to the call that I made last September for a resumption of the Constitutional Conf erence in Winnipeg for last Janu ary.

If my honourable friend, whose national leader appears to be in the pocket of the Prime Minister all the time, could give us some help by having the pocket socialist talk to the main one it would be helpful for the Canadian interest, I imagine. MR. EVANS: I wonder then, Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable First Minister would answer my question 17 01 directly. Here's an opportunity, and I'd like to ask the Premier if he will seize this opportunity and do ever ything possi ble to use his good offices to facilitate discussion between Ottawii and Edmonton in order that some agreement may be arrived at in the near future?

Here's the opportunity, is he prepared to show leadership and statesmanship at this time, Mr. Speaker? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Question Period having expired. We' ll proceed with Orders of the Day. The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Energy and Mines that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gra nted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment; and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for The Department of Health. CONCURRENT COMMITT EES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order and we're on Page 76, (hX 1) - pass - the Member for Transcona. MR.

WILSON PARASIUK: I'd like the Minister to give us a breakdown as to which school divisions are covered. He did it last year, he must have that material available this year so I won't have to go back to last year 's Ha nsard; how many school divisions presently are receiving the dental program; how many are being provided through the public program and how many are being provided through the Dental Association program; how many school divisions are involv ed; how many children are involved and how many school divisions and children are not covered by the program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON.

L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (F ort Garry ): Mr. Chairman, ther e are approxi m: .·tely 30 school divisions, in total, covered by the two models of delivery, the gov ernment plan and the Manitoba Dental Asso ciation plan. I say approxima tely 30 because there are ba sicall y 29 identifiabl e as divisions and then another category that includes various remote communities, districts and pieces of divisions.

The total numb er of divisions covered by the Manitoba Children's Dental Program, the government program, is 16 plus the bayline communities in the north, communitie s such as Cormorant, Jen peg, Pikwitonei, Thicket Portage and IIford. So it's 16 plus

Monday, 16 March, 1981 th ose northern bay line communi ties. The tota l number covered by the Manitoba Dental Association plan is twelve-and-two-thirds plus some additional pieces. The Manitoba Dental Association Program was expanded as of Sept ember, 19 80, as I announced in the House last spring, to absorb Pelly Trail, Boundary and Pine Creek School Divisions which had former ly been in the government-run program and the School District of Sprague.

So that the MD A total now numbers twelve-and-two- thirds and also includes a number of northern communities, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, Snow Lake, Gillam and Cranberry Portage. So if you take the 16 plus the north and the twelve- and-two-t hirds plus the communities which I have just identified in the north, we describe it, for purpo ses of sim plicity, Mr. Chairman, as 30 school divisio ns.

The remaining school divisions in the province are not covered although there is a substantial area of the province covered by the public health program, the Fluoride Rinse and Preventive Program which goes into a wide number of schools throughout the province. In terms of actual children treated, a 19 79-80 school year which is the last school year of a complete nature, there were 18,710 school children who received dental treatment through the facilities of the two programs, the government and the MD A Program. There was approxima tely 12 ,020 under the government program and 6,690 unde r the MD A Program.

With the addition of the new age group in this curr ent school year, we're looking at a substantial increase in numbers this year and the estimate for the 19 80-81 school year and the total number of children eligible I think runs between 30 and 35,000. I just want to check with my officials. Yes, and the fotal number eligible this year it will be between 30 and 35,000. MR. PARASIUK: I don' t need this now but I'm wondering if I could get it from the Minister before we get to Minister's Salary, again, at the end.

I'd like an indi cation from him as to which school divisions are covered by the dental program and I'd like it ind icated as to whether they're covered publicly or through the Manitoba Dental Association Program; and then I'd like an indi cation of th ose school di visions which are not covered by the public program. I think there must be some 20-odd that aren't covered. I'm just not sure of how many school divisions there are all told at this particular time. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I can giv e the honour able member tha t list.

That's correct, he asked me to identify the divisions that were covered in his first question. I can either read them into the record or I can give him a list. MR. PARASIUK: If you can give me a list, that would be sufficient, just so I could have it for my purpose. MR. SHERMAN: All right. There are 48 school divisions in the province, is that correct? I think it's 48 and there are 30 covered under the two models of delivery, so there are approxima tely 18 who do not have a children's dental health program similar to the one that we're discussing.

But as I say the Public Health Preventive Program and Fluoride Rinse 1702 Program is in place in a considerable number of schools and an expanding number of schools. I can give the hono urable member the list of divisions which are included in the government program and the MDA Program at this point, Mr. Chairman. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I'm going to go over this. I'll probably have a few more comments to make on this in the next few minutes.

Generally, from what I can see, the areas that are covered are what I'd call your rural areas, but not all of your rural areas and certainly the urban areas are not being covered by the dental care program and I think it's incumbent upon the Minister to explain why there isn't this overall coverag e. I would ha ve thought that we should have reached the situation by the year 1981 that the program would have been in place in all school districts in Manitoba, certainly at the kind ergarten and Grade 1 level.

I think that a program such as dental care should be a universal program, accessible to all children in every part of the province and that isn't the case right now. it's a major disappointment to us. I would say it's an extremely high priority because society has to spend -money on dental care anyway. We believe it spends its money more effectively if it does this publicly, if it provides for adequate dental care especially with school age children.

We believe that an ounce of prevention here is worth a pound of cure and that if we expended a bit more money in this area, developed that capacity, we as a society would save a large amount of money in the long run with this type of program. I was wondering if the Minis ter would gi ve us an explana tion as to why the gov ernmen t has not proceeded to implement a universal dental care program in the schools for all children of Manitoba. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, it has been basically a question of proceed ing on the basis of priorities and the capacity to do only so much at a giv en time in terms of the healt h care bud get generally. We started from the position tha t with respect to the children's dental health program that the first need when we came into office, was some of the nor thern comm unities, remo te communi ties, where children do not have access to the health services that exist, certainly in urban Manitoba and even to a considerable degree in rural Manitoba, relative to what is available in the remote parts of the province in the north.

So, insofar as geographic expansion is concerned we moved in geographic expansion terms to get that service into northern communities, including The Pas and including the northern communities that I ident ified earlier. We want to develop and put in place a much more com prehen sive de ntal health program for Manitobans generally. I have, in fact, stated the go vernment's intention of doing th at in public statements that I have made and to which I am committed, both to the Manitoba Dental Association and elsewhere in recent months during the past year.

Certainly, the concept of a children's dental health program is a desirable one but it would be my hope - it's certainly my ambition and certainly I have the concurrence of my colleagues in it - that we should be looking at a dental health program that covers not just children ages six to 12 but that goes up to age 18 . Then in another phase embraces and covers

Monday, 16 March, 1981 our senior cit izens and then ultimately, hopefully, is available to that whole middle category betweeen age 18 and age 65 of our population. That's a pretty major health undertaking, even looked at in terms of a eo-insured program as I'm sure the Member for Transcona would agree.

Pending the development of the methodology and the technique for putting that kind of a program in place and phasing it in, we have not made any major or swee ping cha nges , or provided for any further geographic expansion to the existing Children's Dental Health Program, because we are at work in my office and in consultation with advisors in the department and outside th e department, in developing a concept such as I've described that can be initia ted by the government, put in place and ph ased in to complete existence over a period of years.

In terms of whether it should have come before certain other undertakings and initia tives that we've embarked on in the health field, whether it be the redeve lopment of certain major hospitals, or whether it be the drive to put better facilities in place for person s who are ment ally ill and in need of psychiatric treatment, or addit ional insured programs under the Health Services Commission for certain specially areas of illness and disability, is a question I suppose that could be debated by all political

partie s at any poin t in time. it's a matter of prioriz ation and a matter of a particular decision having been made. Our priorization dictated that we had major undertakings in the capital health facility field that had to be embarked on and th ey had to come first.

But certainly, I'm committed and my colleagues with me, to the implementation in this decade, the 19 80s, of a model and a concept for dental health that would lead to a comprehensive dental health insurance system that ultimately would cover all the population, but that because of the cost and the mechanics of putting it in place, would be phased in category by category and that would not necessarily be a first-dollar coverage type of program; it would likely be a eo-insurance program. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ind icate to the Minister that I'm glad that at least rhetori cally, the government is recognizing the validity of a CCF polic y which da tes back to 19 33, and a New Democratic policy which dates back to 19 61, with respect to the fact that there should be a public dental care program for childr en, for elderly people; tha t it should be a program that bears some relationsh ip to Medicare and that the government is now, having condemned those programs or his party having comdemned that type of approach in the past, is now coming around to realizing the validity of it.

However, I do take issue with the Minister stating that it comes down to a priority of the health care budget and I'd like a clarification from the Mi nister in this respect. Is he saying that the reason why the government isn't expanding the dental care program geographi cally is, that it just hasn't got the funds in comparison to other needed projects like the $1.3 million special subsidy that the government has to provide to private corporations in order to build personal care homes?

If he's saying th at, then sure we can debate whether in fact there are di fferences in priorities and 1703 probably they are; but if the Minister is saying that, is he also saying that expenditure by the public through a dental care program for children at a young age, does not in fact save society a lot of money that is paid by society later on to pay for dental care expenditures for th ese ch ildren who didn't have sufficient work done on their teeth when they were young.

Is not an ounce of prevention here paid for through a public dental care program, not worth a pound of cure, paid for largely by society at large but at the same time paid for in substantial amounts by the go vernme nt through social assistance? Because often the people who have neglected their teeth the most are those people who are poor. They can't afford to go to dentists.

If in fact they've got a very limited dollar to go around dental care expenditures which most other families would view as critical, just fall to the bottom of the priority list because these people just can't afford to provide that type of dental care. So I'd like a clarification from the Minister as to whether he do es not believe that a si ncere expenditure, public moneys with respect to dental care for ch ildren in all school divisions in Manitoba, would not save society money in the longer run and would not save the public and the taxpayer of Manitoba by reducing future public expenditu res on dental care.

MR. SHERMAN: There's no question, Mr. Chairman, that th e government views den tal car e as top priority, high quality preventive medicine, preventive health care.

That's one of the reasons why we moved into the north with the childr en's program rather than into urban areas, because the victims of bombed-out mouths, if I may use that expression, and poor dental care in the north turn up in our health care system throughout the province over and over again and beyond the misery that they thems elves endure, they represent a significant challenge to us in terms of health care generally and they're no more visible than they are for example at the Health Sc iences Centre and the Childr en' s Hospital at the Health Sciences Centre, which are major referral facilities for persons from all over Manitoba who are suffering from health problems; many of them, a significant number of them, caused and generated to some degree by the poor condition of their mouths.

So I agree that it's a major area of health care respon sibi lity and provid es us with a major opportunity in preventive medicine.

Certainly it was not priorized below the $1.3 million that are required to ensure that we have sufficient personal care beds on stream in 19 81 and 19 82 to meet the needs of our elderly, but it was priorized below the $13 8 million that were committed to the redevelopment of the Health Sciences Centre; and it was priorized below such programs as hearing aids for children and special surgery for cleft lip and palate cases; and breast prosthesis for women who had undergone mastectomies; and adult day care; and the $200 million overall capital program in the health facility field that is under way and in construction at the present time. lt was priorized below tho se because our physical plant in this province nee ded regeneration, extension, upgrading and expansion. lt was priorized below the init iatives that we have taken in the mental health field including the five-year redevelopment

Monday, 16 March, 1981 plans for both Selkirk and Brandon. If the Member for Transcona is suggesting that it should have been priorized ahead of any of those items, I can't argue, that's a legiti mate position for him to take.

But governments have to make those decisions as he appreciates and our priorization, while recognizing the importance of a universal dental health program, is such as I've described it - that is not to say that it is not as important as any of the projects that I've mentioned - but we have a range of important things to do and we're working at them piece by piece, chunk by chunk as best we can.

We have major battles to fight in the alcoholism field and we'll be moving on to that item in the next appropriation considera tion, but there were things that had not been done in the alcoholism field that must be done and I'm pleased to say there's a substantial increase in the Budget for the AFM this year.

That is equally important alongside dental health and since childr en in the urban areas at least have access to dental care and children in remote communi ties don't, we opted for the kind of geographic expansion that would put us into some of those remote communities and would permit us to add an age group, the new age group each year to those divisions being served , while essentially taking the time necessary to work out the mechanics of a comprehensive plan and putting some of those other considerations into operation first.

There's a legitimate debate on priorization, I don't dispute it, but that was our priorization. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister makes a good case for priorization, his priorization. Now the fact is it's been known for some time, the de ntal pro fession as a whole recognizes and accepts the idea that the way to get at dental health is with chil dr en from the very beginning; that's what's being taught now in dental schools right across the nation and right across the North American continent, probably Europe too.

To simply say well, we had to do this or that or that or something else and we decided to change; our priorities are di fferent than somebody else's priorities. Mr. Chairman, this government gave up with a great deal of fanfare, something like $37 million in 19 77, in the way of revenue and now th ey're pleading poverty. The fact is that the money is being expended anyway, but it's being spent by the individual. Just as it was recognized that Medicare was simply shifting the cost from the individual to society as a whole, similarly the same principle applies in dental services.

If you start with children at age six or five and you keep them in a program until they're 12 , 15, 18 etc., then it is recognized that their attitude towards the care of their teeth becomes as common to them as washing their face in the morning. They are sensitive about it, they recognize it because they're taught that through the treatment their teeth get every year or sometimes twice a year, through the educational program which is carried on in the school. Of course, that's why we opted for the school program because it becomes part of their educational process.

When this program was launched, I don't doubt the Cons ervatives of the day could have said well, 1704 this is going to cost the government money and you shouldn't be spending that much; the government should get out of programs, it shouldn't get into programs. Let people look after their own needs. Get off people's backs. Leave the money in their pockets, so the y will do with it as they will. But we know, particularly in dental hea lth, it is di fferent from medical in the sense that people don't run to dentists voluntarily too often.

There is still a hangup about going to the dentist, both amongst adults and amongst children and in order to break that down, you ha ve to ma ke de ntal health as I say, as necessary and as common and as acceptable to people as any other form of treatment. The way to do it is with youngsters, because I'm absolutely convinced that a youngster who's in this program at age six, and stays in that program until eventually he's out of school at age 17 or 18, that child will look after his teeth or her teeth forevermore. There's no question in my mind.

So that's why it's essent ial, if you talk in terms of preventative health care, that dental service should have been provided. What they've been wat ching really, is the government inherited a program, horsed around with it; it moved some of it to the private sector, the Dental Associat ion, some it kept in the publi c program I guess because they couldn't get dentists in certain areas, but generally it's been a status quo operation.

The Mi nister mentions Northern Manitoba, yes, it's true it went into Northern Manitoba ; it had to go into Northern Manitoba because certainly the need is great there because there isn't the dentists available that there is in the cities, but it was always the intention to move into the cities, into the urban areas and the program has not moved in that regard. I would venture to say that the majority of students are not covered simply because no school divisions in Winnip eg are covered as far as I know.

I don't think Brandon is covered and I think that's where you've got your population, your population centres are not covered . So when the Mi nister says well, we're in favour of it; we' re lookin g at it; we' re hoping to get a comprehensive service, then I say a comprehe nsive service is fine, but it had moved in this area, and if today you had a program throughout the Manitoba schools - all the di visions, all the childr en of Manitoba - th en th e day you move into a comprehensive program you'd be faced with a lot less costs, because you wouldn't have the catching up.

You'd have thousands and thousands of children who already are in a program, whose teeth have been looked after, any problems are sp otted immedia tely and don't fester and become major problems, both from the point of view of the work that has to be done in the child's mouth and the cost of treatment, all of that could have been avoided.

So while we're looking at a com prehen siv e program, by all means look at a comprehensive program; but if you want to get a handle on the costs, if you want it to flow normally, if you want to avoid excessive leaps in costs, then the way to do it is by a program introduced to the child at age five or six and every year you add another age group and within a decade you would have all the childr en of Manitoba in the program and you could then start looking at a comprehensive program. Otherwise, Mr.

Monday, 16 March, 1981 Chairman. the fact of the matter is that if you move to a totally universal program in dental care as we have in Medicare today, for everyone, the cost would exce ed Medicare. That's according to all professionals in the field, because dentistry is very expensive. So when you talk in terms of going comprehensive, I say to the Minister I treat that as just talk. What I don't treat as talk and simply as an excuse to avoid the issue, is the fact that since the program was launched, it has not expanded at the rate at which it was planned, what we have here is a program that's limping along.

The government inherited something, so they'r e not cutting it out, they're maintaining it, but to me it's absolutely obvious that if this program had not been in place when this government took over, they wou ldn't be introducing it today, they'd still be looking at a comprehensive program. So, Mr.

Chairman, I regret very much that the Minister is simply dragging his feet on this and simply not doing what the program envisaged at its very inception; that is to get a handle on dental services, both for children and future adults, that when they become adults they will have an attitude towards dental health and will have healthy mouths so that when they do have to go to a dentist as adults, the treatment is one of maintenance rather than major services. MR. CH AIRM AN: 3.(

a) the Memb er for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I have a couple of particular questions to ask. Last year the Minister put out a press release stating that there had been some initial results of a cost efficiency report and I'm quoting from a press release dated April 18, 19 80 and he said: "The Health Minister Bud Sherman, said that 78 percent of eligib le children were receiving tr eatment in the publ ic program in 19 78-79 compared to 81 percent in the Manitoba Dental Association Program ".

So it would appear that the utilization rate was slightly higher in the Manitoba Dental Asso ciation Program, in spite of earlie r thoughts that maybe the utilization rate would be higher in the public program. But, my colleague the Member for Seven Oaks was indicating that the Manitoba Dental Association is operating in areas where there are greater population densities.

However, according to the annual report put out by the department for 19 80, which I assume came out later, it says that the utilization rate within the Manitoba Dental Association Program is reported as 78 percent, but the School Base Voluntary Treatment Program shows a utilization rate of 82.7 percent, really 83 percent, which is a substantial difference.

So if I take into account the qualifier given to me by the Member for Seven Oaks which I think has validity, if you look at the lists of these programs and you determine where the public program is operating and where the Dental Associa tion Program is operating, one comes to the conclusion that indeed the utilization rate in the public program is much higher than that in the private program; especially if you add another qualifier that the department itself adds, namely, that the actual number of children treated in the school divisions of the department-run program is greater than this figure, as some parents elect to have their children treated by their family dentist. 17 05 So if we're looking at prevention and we want to, in a sense, nip this problem in the bud at an early stage, the public program operated through the schools seems, according to your own material here, to be working better.

A concern that I have in this respect is that the public program, for all intents and purposes, in my es timation, is doomed to extinction because it's based on trained dental nurses working under the supervision of departmental dentists in schools; and the government has effectively curtailed the supply, the futur e su pply, of trained dental nurses.

I'm wondering whether in view of this evidence that the department itself comes up with, if they'r e reconsidering provi ding th at option, having that alternative which seems to be working, of indeed providing some assistance to people who want to take training as dental nurses in a special course offered in Saskatchewan, if they are willing to expand that program. If you can recall, Mr.

Chairman, a few years ago the Conservatives, in effect, told a number of people who were enrolled in that program that they didn't have jobs waiting for them when they came back to Manitoba; these people had gone in good faith and taken this course; had done so because they felt that they had an opp ort uni ty to contri bute to the betterment of Manitoba and Manitobans and were told that they didn't have a job waiting for them because the government wanted to really push the approach through the Manitoba Dental Association; I'm just wondering if the Minister's department has reviewed the documentation; whether they are in a position to make any assessments about either of the programs and indeed whether in fact they are willing to start up that program again, of training dental nurses so that we can have a school-focused program which in my estimation, is the best forum for providing preventative counselling, for providing preventative care?

In my remarks to the comments on the opening statement of the Minister, I felt that this government had downplayed the whole area of preventative health care; I said that what was requir ed was far mor e activity in forums whereby we could communicate more effectively with the population. I felt that the best place for that communication, with respect to public health, was in the schools with young children, with young people in their formative years, so that we can try and have them develop much better lifestyles that we indeed have developed ourselves.

I went further and said that I felt that one of the weaknesses of Medicare was that it tended to lead to a downplaying of the public health role in our schools because it might have been assumed at that time that a greater effort in preventative counseling, preventative care, might ha ve in fact been undertaken through doctor's offices. Experiences seem show that that wasn't the case; we have to go back to the schools with respect to public health care, with respect to medicine and I believe that we should be doing the same thing with respect to dental care, preventative dental care.

So, I think the best forum is the school; I think the best opportunity would be to give this public program a fair chance, a chance that it has not had in the last three years. I'm wondering if the Minister is reconsidering his position

Monday, 16 March, 1981 on the provision of dental nurses working in schools under the dir ection of departmental dentists as a real option. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson (Rock Lake): The Honou rable Mini ster. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd have to advise the Hono urable Member for Transcona th at the governme nt is not giving th at proposal any consideration. We're not intending to start up the Burs ary Denta l Nur se Pr ogram again for two reasons.

First, there's a surplus of dental nurses at the present time coming out of Wascana College in Regina; they are being absorbed in both the public and the private system of dentis try in Saskatchewan but they are in surplus. Secondly, we have, I guess I'd call it an incipient surplus of dentists coming out of dental colleges all across Canada and Manitoba Dental College falls into that same category.

What we want to do is get dent ists into rura l Ma nitoba, into thos e underserviced areas throughout the province; and develop and put in place, just as extensively as possible, a system of dental health that dr aws on the manpower and womanpower that's available in our dental professions and dental disciplines right now.

There is some concern about oversupply of dentists. 1 know that there are many regions and centres in the province that probably would find that hard to understand because they have, from time to time, and for periods of time, been without dentists in their own communities but, neverth eless, it's a fact.

To put another dental profession or occupation or discipline into the field, such as the dental nurse, notwiths tanding the excellence of their training and their qualifications and their abilities, would be to create even greater pressures and greater di fficulties that already exist for the dental profession and some other dental disciplines at the present time. So, we have no intention of restarting the Bursary Dental Nurse Program.

What we have attempted to do, not altogether successfully but certainly the attempt has been made and it has been in balance relatively successful, is to find employment opportunities with private dentists, in private dental offices, for those Manitobans who took the Bu rsary Dental Nu rse Program. Many dentists have hir ed dental nurses and applied them to responsibilities in their offices that go right to the ultima te in terms of the qualifications and the training which the dental nurses receive.

In other cases they have been employed in an assistant capacity or a dental nurs e capacity tha t hasn 't entir ely uti lized their total training qualifications. In some cases they have become dental hygienists and, by and large, certainly efforts have been made by this department to ensure that opportunities have been available for them in the dental field. That's not to say that all Manitoba bursaried students who graduated from Wascana College have been placed in the dental field.

I know that there are a number of them who have not yet found opportunities in that field but the Dental Assoc iation has assured us that as they have opportunities to supply services to communities and regions in the J:)rovince requiring them , that they are prepared to hir e dental nurses in their office and use them in their offices. The di fficulty, as the hon ourable member knows, lies to a degree in the capacity in which those dental 1706 nurs es are used .

The by-laws of the Dental Association make it di fficult for the dental nurse to function in the private dental profession right up to the comp lete qualifications for which she was trained at Wascana; so there has been some di fficulty in that area and not an entir e meeting of minds. But certainly the MD A ha s assured us and has demons trated in some areas of the province already that their members will hire dental nurses in their practises. To send more dental nurses on bursary or under any other method to Wascana would just be proliferating a problem tha t we hav en't enti rely solved yet. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(h) (1) - pass. The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: The Minister is telling us that because the marketplace hasn't provided a sufficient coverage of dentists in the province that somehow now the province is going to use its public program as a system of feather -bedding dentists coming out of dental schools. The opportunities have existed out in the countryside for dentists to take advantage of them; they haven't taken advantage of them, they hav en't provided sufficient coverage for the population.

I would have thought that would be the classical system unde r which the Cons ervatives would operate, namely, that the opportunities exist, let the dentists go out and get them. If they don't get them , if they don't take them, if they don't provide the coverag e; if th ere are alternative systems available that have in fact proved to be adequate in practice especially using the schools as a forum, I would have thought the Minister would have jumped at the chance. He is saying that he won't.

Strange that this government will be using the instrument of public programming in order to ensure that somehow dentis ts get out into rural areas. it's a strange departure and I'm surprised that it's necessary or that the government itself would view that it's necessary. I'd like to ask the Minister specifically if he can ind icate why there is a di fference in utilization rates between the public and the private program? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, I can't.

That's one reason why we wanted to have a look at the MDA program in comparison to the gove rnment program for a period of at least a couple of years so that we wer en't making jud gments based on a particular extreme or a particular isolated one-year performance. That's one reason why the Dental Review Committee under Dr. Storrie is undertaking a second study on the dental health status of the children alongside the one on cost-efficiency.

On the earlier point about using public policy or public strategy or public programs to mobili ze dentists and dental professionals and get them into rural and unde rserviced areas, I would have to disagree with the Honour able Member for Transcona when he suggests that it's a strange departure. lt's precisely what almost every jurisdiction on this continent is either doing or considering doing with respect to medical professionals, with the exception of a few jurisdictions who were perhaps blessed by other attractions.

But the whole rationale for the Standing Comm ittee on Medic al Manp owe r, for example, is to address the difficulties of underservice in rural Manitoba by the medic al profession and to

Monday, 16 March, 19 81 make sugges tions with respect to incentives to redress that problem. Many provinces in Canada and many states in the United States are embarked on the same course of action. In Ontario they're far more advanced on it than we are. In Nova Scotia they are actually influencing intake and elective decisions in their medical school to redress the problem. Why should there be any difference when it comes to dentistry?

If we have to do certain things to ensure that the profess ionals that we are trai ning in our Dental College here, who are graduating as fou r-year qualified dental professionals, are going to be at least interested in establishing practice in rura l Manitoba. I think that's an im portant part of public policy and government policy. MR. CHAI RMAN, Morris McGr egor: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: The Minister seems to be saying that we have this incipient oversupply; that possibly the intake is too high.

Is there any way in which dentists themselves might make some commitment to go serve in rural Manitoba which would strike me as being a reasonable type of undertaking on their part. If I can recall correctly, I think the public does subsid ize the dental pr ogram to some very considerable extent; it do so in other areas. What I gather is that a number of the people in the past have been going to other provinces. We've trained dentists here in Manitoba who'v e then elected to go to British Columbia or Alberta or other places.

I think what might be happening is that there might be other dental schools being created. I don't know if there is one in Alberta yet; I know that Alberta's been trying to develop their own capacity and maybe that's why we're ending up with a bit of a surplus now with respect to dentists.

But at the same time what the Minister is saying is that he's prepared to do a number of things with respect to an incipient oversupply of dentists; yet at the same time we have, as he says, an oversupply of dental nurses and the Minister isn't prepared to do any thing about that, even though his own departmental figures indicate that the school base voluntary treatment program shows a good utilization rate, a somewhat better utilization rate than the other one, and that the costs are comparable and that the public program, in my estimation, would be much easier to put into place into a number of rural areas.

He's saying himself that it's very difficult getting dentists to go into rural areas. From what I could gather in the past it wasn't that difficult to get dental nurses and to get departmental dentists to go into rural areas and provide this program through the school system. So I'm somewhat surprised that he's willing to apply a double-standard in the dental care fie ld; it's a dou ble-sta nda rd which I think smacks of a type of elitism with respect to health care.

You tend to bend over backwards to the doctors; you tend to bend over backwards to the dentists; you don't respond very quickly with respect to the chiropractors; you don't respond very quickly to nurses; you don't respond to nurse practitioners; you don't respond quickly to health care workers; yet I think that you should be taking a fair approach with respect to all people who provide health and dental care in that the human element of health care is very important. 17 07 Although it's impo rtant to ha ve comm itted dedicated doctors in providing health care, I think it's just as important to have committed, dedicated nurses, nurse practitioners, orderlies, health care workers who clean up the facility.

Cleanlinless is very important in the provision of health care. Personal contact is very important. A patient in a hospital spends far more of his or her time interacting with the nurse, the nurse practitioner, an orderly, the housekeeping. staff, the food staff than they might with the doctor, yet it strikes me that the approach of the government is to pay particular attention to the needs of the doctors and the dentists but to disregard to some extent the needs of the morale of other people in the health care area.

I think we should be trying to develop effective teamwork in this area and not favouring one and discriminating against others. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to prolong the debate on that point. I certainly take exception to the refe rence responding to the situation with respect to the nurses. This government moved with respect to nursing salaries as soon as there was an opportunity to do so, as soon as a contract that was in force expired.

Further to that, this government certainly provided the incentive and the initiative behind the production of the three new nursing statutes that are on the record in Manitoba at this time. Further to that, we have appoint ed nurses to key positions in advisory capacities such as the new Manitoba Health Research Council in this province and generally I think, acknowledged the extremely important profes sional role and professional service of nurses, so I can't accept the honourable member's criticism in that area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, a question with the regard to the Appendix,

Section 5, Page 14 0 in the Annual Report. This is just information I am seek ing; it's something I don't understand. On Page 14 0 they list some statistics. They refer to preventive services at the bottom of the box, dental prophylaxis, three kinds, the primary, I guess, mixed and permanent and topical fluoride and running crosswise, I notice that there is none shown under MDA, all of these services are provided in the public program, the one that's provided to the schools. Can the Minister through his staff get an explanation for it, because I don't think the Minister himself would know? MR.

SHE RMAN: There is a preventive package that's provided by the MDA, Mr. Chairman, that may not appear. It doesn't appear under that general heading of preventive services at the bottom of the page. It appears in the top category of diagnostic services, the MDA Initial Oral Exam. That essentially is the preventive package performed by that - and the recall package is shown right under it - that essentially is the preventive package under the MDA and the honourable member will note that there's no corresponding figure for the government column. MR.

MILLER: Well, one is an oral exam and then the recall package I assume means those children

Monday, 16 March, 1981 who are recalled for treat ment out of the 1, 287; 418 are recalled because it has to be fair to the follow­ up. But then the preventive services, I assume that topical fluoride is something that would be applied to children's teeth, and I notice it's shown under the public program, not under the MDAs program. Are the children not given topical fluoride or prophylaxis when they come in for their initial oral exam because an oral exam to me simply means the taking of an x­ ray or a visual examination?

The recall might lead to further treatment, further procedures but the oral exam is simply an oral exam. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr . Chairman, the MD A package includes those items referred to by the honourable member even though it's described here as an initial oral exa m. lt includes the visual examination and the topical fluoride, cleaning and oral hygiene instruction, and it calls for two such visits a year. MR. MILLER: So the Min ister is saying that he is satisfied that in fact the children do receive the prophylaxis treatment and the fluoride when they go to the dentist for their oral exam.

Do I have that assurance? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Fort by Dr. McCormick and we've di scussed the situation with him. I would expect that uncertainty should be resolved in the immed iate months ahead as we finalize our proposal for a compre hensive dental health program. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Chairman, I think that there will be many people who will welcome a fina l resolution of this whole matter of appointments because, as I said the other day, there is concern that civil servants aren't being given the opportunity to be promoted within the system and this has been going on now in various departments for some considerable time. I realize that it might be a little awkward for people like Dr. Johnson and Dr. McCormick to sit here while people talk about whether they should be promoted into the vacant positions, but it's happening year after year.

We had it last year and we're still talking about it this year and I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that a lot of people within the department are talking about it too, so this is where the flak is coming from, tha t people are concerned that the promotional opportunities are just not being shown. So I would certainly hope that the Minister will ensure that the vacancies, and there are about half a dozen of them I think in his department in senior positions, will be filled and hopefully, will be filled from wit hin the department, Mr. Chairperson. Rouge. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member MS.

WES TBURY: Well, Mr. Chairman, that was quick. I just have one question on this 3.(

h) line. Has there yet been appointed an Executive Director of Dental Services, a position I understand that's been vacant for a year-and-a-half? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman , the Acting Director of Dental Services is Dr. Cliff McCormick, who is on my immedia te left. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Chairman, the question was, has an Executive Director been appointed and, you know, I'm quite sure that Dr. McCormick is quite capable of handling the job but why should he handle the job and not get the position, the remuneration and the recognition for handling the job?

That's one of the things that is concerning me about the lack of appointments to vacant positions within the He alth Department, that ob viously somebody is picking up the slack, and why can't these people get the appropriate recognition? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I presume when the honourable member refers to "E xecutive Director" she means Director of Dental Services and her question still holds.

The only way I can answer it is that we are looking at a very extensive and very comprehensive redraf ting and rest ructuring of our whole approach to dental health programming to provide a much more comprehensive coverage plan; and the determination as to personnel and titles is part of that process and it hasn't been completed yet. I don't for one moment though suggest that Dr. McCormick's capabilities and qualifications and value to the department and to me is in any way less than that demanded of a Director of Dental Services. Certainly the department, the ministry, is well served 1708 for Winnipeg Centre.

MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, the case of the Member for Transcona was well taken, as is usually the case, and it should be underlined, that here is another manifestation of the government's policy. it's obvious to those people who have been inv olved over the th ree years tha t it was their intention to emasculate this thing the day after they took office. One of the words that caught my ear from the Member for Transcona was "fea therbedding" and a couple of words to the Minister was that they have got to protect the jobs for the dentists coming out of Dental School.

This has never worked with any of the professions; ophthalmolo gists and all the rest of them, I don't think there's an ophthalm olog is t outside the City of Winnip eg still. But, Mr. Chairman, this is another manifestation of the government's inabili ty and unwillingn ess to tr y things new, especially when they come in conflict with peoples in the professions. In talking about psychiatric care for children the Mi nister has been dancing down the road because he hasn't even got a board yet because he can't resolve the interdiscipli nary disputes.

People know how difficult change is but if changes are going to come about everyone has to change, not just one

section of the economy. You may recall the difficulty here locally when we went from steam locomotives to di esels and the di fficulty it caused with the boilermakers but nevertheless, they had to accept it; and so the dentists and other professional groups are going to have to accept the sh ift from professional services to paraprofessional services; and this is one of the areas in which the shift should be made and it has been demons trated that it should be made. But the policy of the government is to

Monday, 16 March, 1981 concentrate on this area; that's where their votes are; and if you listened to the debate in the House today and read the local paper north of Winnipeg, to hell with them, better to dr aw welfare than have jobs; they won't put any money into finding jobs; they won't put any money into finding alternatives. Here we are faced with a total of $585 millions, _increasing to $700 millions and the Con servative party is the one that runs around the country, we've got to restrain government spending.

They're given an alternative, a model was put in place, which is pointed out by the Member for Transcona as being well utilized but they are not going to continue the program. Just as soon as these people disappear then they will say, well we haven't got any, so there's silence on this particular point. One of the difficulties in having committee meetings in this room is you get kind of a relaxed atmosphere, I feel like standing up and making a speech on this it's so important; but it is.

The Member from Transcona just hit the nail right on the head; that the government is hell-bound for election, a helluva election too, I wish they'd call one, to emasculate this program because it comes in conflict with some powerful groups in the society. Mr. Chairman, I'm more and more being inclined to explore the possibi lities of calling thos e self­ governing bodies which are given authority by the Legislature, in the public int erest, to di scipline themselves, especially in the health field.

We hear much from the Manitoba Dental Association and we hear much from the MMA and we hear much from the Bar Associa tion, but these aren't the bodies that are responsible to the Legislature because of the authority which is delegated to them. lt is the Law Society, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and I will be more and more inclined to sugge st that these bodies be called to report to the Legislature so tha t we could dialogue with them on the provision of health services in the Province of Manitoba because these things are going by default, Mr. Chairman.

The country is concerned with the Constitution; the country is concerned with inflation; the country is concerned with employment; there are so many huge problems that are facing us that each significant, small but yet significant shift that we could make in the expenditure of public funds by this government, is going by default. This is an excellent example of the inefficiency of this government because of a dog matic Jack Bood approach to government.

I just want to put those few words on the record in juxtapos ition to the opinio n exp ressed by the Member for Transcona because he hit it right on the head; it is the policy of the government and it is but another reflect ion of their att itude toward government. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(h) (1) pass - the Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Winnipeg Centre may think that the Member for Transcona hi t it righ t on the head but I would suggest that both of them hit it on the head only if Ma nitoba is an island and if we live here unto ou rselves.

I know the Hono urable Me mber for Winn ipeg Centre doesn't like that but I use the analogy anyway because it is very important.

We are not living entirely isolated and by ourselves and untroubled by competition from other areas on this continent, and particularly in the health care field. 1709 1 put it to the Member for Winni peg Centre why, when we have four dental professions or dis ciplines now, ranging from dentists and dental assistants and hygienists and nurses, why should we be embarking upon the development of and the proliferation of a new body of paraprofessionals in that field when we are having difficulty now with manpower needs and di stribution across this province and across this country?

We're note dealing with this in isolation or alone; we are dealing with the other provinces right across this country on health manpower needs and requirements and anomalies and shortc omings; and on the challenge of the underserviced area which exists, believe me, in California and in Florida and in Illinois just as much as it does in Manitoba and in Ontario and in Nova Scotia.

To pour additional manpower or womanpower into a professional field which is not properly distri buted and di sseminated and balanced now, but which certainly doesn't lack for supply, which is a mobile field and which is susceptible to the attractions and offers that all North American professionals and skilled persons are susceptible to, seems to me to be a very unwise course of action for any government to follow.

We're attempt ing, both at the ministerial level and at the deputy ministerial level and at advisory council levels, to add ress in conc ert with our counterparts across the country, these problems of professional supply and distribution. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre talks about the Budget increasing from $585 million to $700 million and yet we're not taking care of this particular problem in dentis try. Well, when we get to the Commission item, he'll certainly have in front of him the details of that $115 million incr ease.

I can assure him tha t it's all accountable for and accrues as a result of new health facilities in operation, for which we now have to absorb the annual ized operating costs, settlements with hospital workers, settlements with nurses, settlements with doctors, etc., etc. So there has been no plan or deli berate attempt to escape the kinds of challenges that face us in the dental field; quite the contrary.

We're trying to address them in the face of a substantial supply of professionals and paraprofessionals who are already in the field and to encourage young women and young men to accept bursaries and go to Wascana on the promise that they're going to find jobs in the dental field, when we're already having di fficulty in placement and distribution is, I think at best an unwise course, if not a rather cynical one. So I can't permit the remarks the Ho nourable Member for Winnip eg Centre to pass unchallenged.

When he talks about hitting something on the head, he's simp ly hit ting something on the head tha t reflects an abstract concept of what's going on here. We're living on a competitive continent and if we don't respond to the profe ssional capacit y and capability and ambitions of our professionals, other states and other provinces will. MR. BOYCE: We have another perfect example of rationalization. He says it's academic and other words like that. it's more than academic for some child that's got a toothache in Pukatawagan.

The whole model is designed for the City of Winnip eg and it spins off a little bit into Selkirk and Thompson, because it's large enough, but the whole thing is

Monday, 16 March, 1981 designed for the City of Winnipeg, your whole thrust. l"m saying that experience has taught us, or should have taught us, that if you're looking for a physicist you can't deploy an Einstein to every small hamlet in Manitoba, if you needed a physicist. You have to deploy the resources that you can develop for these places. What was sugg ested or im plicit in my understanding of what the Member for Transcona was saying, is that's what the program should be designed for; it wasn't designed to replace dentists in the City of Winni peg; it's supp osed to be a Manitoba program.

I live two blocks from the Health Sciences Centre, or used to, so I have no quarrel about it; I' ve got everything right next door to me, a heart-lung machine and everyt hing else that you'd want. I know we can 't deploy those kinds or resources in every ha mlet in the province, but nevertheless this is a provincial government and the program was designed to fill a horrendous gap in the provision of services in the dental area.

If you want to take it some other place, it's not academic if some woman in Puk atawagan is pregnant and only can get a midwife. -(I nterjection)- That's why it's in the north; we understand the attitude, goes back to Thelma Forbes who said nobody wants to live up there anyway; it's a provi ncial att itude of a government that is only designed for, in my opinion, the City of Winnip eg and you can't use outside models in this regard.

We have a geographic area which is huge and half of the people live in one city, your very logistics are different than almost anywhere else that you can think of, except perhaps Newfoundland, and they have mor e problems in tha t area than we do. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister to go into his envelopes and dig out the one that you blame somebody else for your problems is just begging the issue, because that's not the point that was taken by the Member for Transcona.

There's a need for the type of service which was developed and you're killing it, you're emasculating it, primarily because - you said it yourself in your own words - that you have to protect the jobs of people being graduated from dental colleges; that's what you said. So that's what I'm taking exception to, it reflects that attitude of the government. You're speaking for the government as a Minister, so I have to assume that you're speaking for the government. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MI LLER: Mr. Chairman, the Min ist er's comments sort of got to me.

I was ready to pass this, but now I don't think I can. He starts on certain assumptions and builds his case around what I consider a strawman. He says, why proliferate; why pour more manpower in now when there are four disciplines, why should we create a fifth? We're not an island unto ourselves. Mr. Chairman, that's true, we're not an island unto ourselves, but we're not going to compete with California, you're not going to compete with Alberta, you'r e not going to compete with B.C., you're going to lose every time. So, by God, why don't you develop a different model so that you can maybe compete.

The different model is to use para professionals. To use dentists who have gone through a full dental program so they're the 1710 most highly trained in that field to do the kind of work required in a school-based program is to me a misuse of real professional expertise. It's simply following in a path which has to lead to an inability to provide a service. The Wascana program is an intensive 20-month program. Now I recall the day when architects used to argue that the only people they would employ in their offices were other architects.

The Community College launched a draftsman's program and I was told initially that they might have trouble getting jobs because architects didn't want to use draftsmen; they weren't really professionals.

But the fact of the matter is that the draftsmen were snapped up, have gone to work in architect's offices and architects tell me that the truth is that someone who goes through a 20-month intensive program of studies to become a draftsman is far faster, far more capable and does the job better than an architect who has learned the theory, there's no question about it, but has really learned far more than drafting itself requires. The same applies here. Mr. Chairman, the Minister says we're not an island unto ou rselves.

I say to him, neither is Sa skatchewan andOSa skatchewan went the route of developing this program thr ough the schools, of training dental health nurses in Wascana, and the result is that they don't require some enticements for dentists to go out and practice in some small rural community, because, let's not kid ourselves, there are many reasons why professional people don't want to go out to these small communities and it isn't only because they can't make as much money.

There are other reasons too; there is social, there is cultural, there are many reasons that they prefer the large cities and that's where they tend to move to; if they don't star t her e they move in from the countryside very quickly into Winnipeg if they can. That's not unique, it's not unique to Manitoba, it's not uni que to Canada - this is happenin g everywhere and I can understand it - because the amenities of a large city can't be equalled in a small community.

If you really want to get at the challenge of somehow resolving the problem of dental health for the entire society you have to start with children. You can do that through a dental program based in the schools, through dental health nurses who - sure they work, they don't work on their own - the initial examination is done by a professional dentist. The x­ rays are read by a professional dentist. The dentist determines what if anything shall be done and what shall not be done. Then and only then does the dental health nurse do anything.

The dentist only does that work for which that dentist is really trained; the kind of work known by the person who has received a degree in dentistry should do or can do. But then the dentist is working fully at his professional capacity to do the things for which he's best able to do and using parap rofess ionals, that is people who've gone through a 20-month course, to then supply the major kind of work which is required in a dental health program.

So I say to the Minister, if he's hoping tha t somehow he's going to entice doctors into rural Manitoba or he's going to entice more dentists to stay in Manitoba after they've graduated, I say it's a

Monday, 16 March, 1981 losing proposition, he can't do it. He's not going to meet the attraction of Texas; he's not going to meet the attraction of California; he's not going to meet the attraction of B.C.; it hasn't worked in the past and it isn't going to work now.

But with the number of dentists that do remain in Manitoba, coupled with a Dental Health Program through the schools, I say we have enough dentists, we could do it; and could do it very successfully and get all childr en throughout Manitoba - not just the rural and the northern areas but through the major urban centres as well - we could get them into a program and, Mr.

Chairman, within 15 years the payoff in savings for dental work in Manitoba would be immense, because this is the area wher e early ident ification and prevention is probably key to the downstream costs - and the term I use is the one that the Minister likes to use downs tream costs. Th ose downstream costs will never be altered unless you get at the children at a very early age. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(h) (1) pass; 3.(h) (2) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,94 1, 10 0 for Health - pass; 4. the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, this is an area where past Conservative Government neglect has caught up with it. Last year 5.8 percent increase. If you take into account inflation, that was an actual decrease in real ter ms, that was the di fference between 19 80-8 1. The Budge t prior to tha t was $4,536,000; it went up to $4,876,000 - a very small increase, an increase of 5.8 percent.

Last year we told the Minister that when you cut back in this type of an area you are going to sow terrible seeds; that this is to a degree a prevention program; it even says provides education and treatment services in the field of alcohol and drug abuse and we told the Min ister that they were cutting back too much; that there were a whole set of programs that had been starved; there was confusion in the program and that we as a society would pay a great deal in future problems as well as future costs.

This year the Minister is coming in with a large increase, an increase of $1. 2 million, a 25.6 percent increase and I say to the Minister this is completely irrational budgeting -( Interjection)- it's feast and famine, it creates terri ble dis locations within the program and it's the wrong way of doing it. What you do is you're going to spend 25.6 percent basically to stand still because you didn't have a regular organized syst ematic set of programs over the last th ree years.

I don't know whether in fact that increase of 25.6 percent is coming in this year because it's an election year or really because this program has been so starved in the past that there is no other alternative. In both cases the reasoning is wrong on the part of the government; they shouldn't have starved this program in the first place. The Annual Report is saying, more facilities are required to stem the ever swelling tide of alcoholism and drug abuse. That's what the statement says, the 19 80 Annu al Report of the Alcoholism Foun da tion of Manitoba.

I think that we the people of Manitoba have been subjected to the effects of ill -advised Co nservative programs, of acute protra cted restraint and then a blatant attempt at catchup and vote buying in an 171 1 election year. I think that's just the wrong type of approach to take with respect to something as critical as this and something which, granted I think from a very cynical political perspective, one could actually hold back funding on. I can recall the Member for Winnipeg Centre, other people pointing out that this this thing shouldn't be starved.

I can recall the Mi nister saying well, we've got to look at this, we have to -(I nterjection)- establish priorities, we might have to cut out the Main Street Project, we might have to do this we might have to do that and look where we find ourselves now - in a situation where a 25.6 percent increase follows a 5.8 percent increase the year before - it's just the wrong way of organizing government expenditures in a critical area such as this. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURV: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have a number of qu estions to ask on the Alcoholism Foundation of Mani toba.

I note that the Annual Report is based on the calendar year

whereas the audited financial statements are based on the fiscal year, ther efore people who are trying to relate performance to expenditures tell me that they are having trouble doing so. If you want to arrive at a per capita expenditure for the Alcoholism Foundation clients with a view to establishing cost benefit criteria, it's just about impossible to do that. So I wanted to ask the Minister if there's any rationale behind the lack of synchronization between these two reporting systems? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the reason about which the Honourable Mem ber for Fort Rouge enquires, our audited financial statements would not be ready until about mid-June and would create difficulty in terms of meeting the examination period in the Estimates and in the legislative session. So that there was an agreement previously; I think it was ag reed to by the previous go ver nment to operate on this basis so that we have the statement in front of us for the examination of the Estimates and the normal sort of February to June legislative session. MS.

WE STBU RV: I take it the Minister isn' t conte mplating making any changes there, Mr. Chairperson. MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Chairman, it hadn't been suggested to me. If the honourable mem ber is suggesting that we look at it, I'm certainly prepared to look at it with my officials. it has not presented itself as a difficulty to me to my knowledge but I'm certainly prepared to take a look at it. MS. WESTBURV: Thank you to the Minister, Mr. Chairperson. Accord ing to the literature, the ratio of men to women receiving treat ment through the foundation for the year ending March, 19 80 was three to one.

Does the Minister and his staff believe tha t thi s reflects a fact th at male alcoholics outnumber female alcoholics by th ree to one, or does he think that this means that the AFM is more oriented to trea tment of men than women and therefore perhaps reaches only a small proportion of the women who might otherwise be treated?

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. SHER MAN: I don't think either, Mr. Chairman. I think t h at possibly men are more oriented to treatment than women. We are attempting to get at the problem of alcoholism that afflicts and affects many women. Traditional sort of stereotypes and lifestyle patterns have tended to focus more on the male than the female, particularly in certain income groups and social economic groups.

I don't think that the figures reflect that kind of a discrepancy or a difference in vulnerability at all, but I think it has been until fairly recently, di fficult to get at the problem sympath etically, com passiona tely and relatively confidentially for women alcoholi cs in certain income and social categories. MS. WESTBURV: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I'm told that a prerequisite to admission is a declaration that one is an alcoholic and I understand that's an im portant part of the tr eatment for a chroni c alcoholic. I wonder if this doesn't exclude those who may be in danger of becoming alchoholics.

If in other words we're doing any work in the prevention area at the foundation. MR. SHERMAN: No, there's not such stipulation or requirement, Mr. Chairman. If a doctor or an alcohol treatment worker or a friend or a relative thinks t h at somebody has a problem, Mr. Cruickshank and his staff and the various agenci es which are - depending again on social categories in some cases - the various social agencies which are funded through the AFM Budget are available to help and we don't need any sworn deposition or anything of that nature. MS. WES TBURV: I'm glad to hear that, Mr. Chairman.

Last April the Mi nister said that a major evaluation of certain foundation functions was being conduc ted and he's quoted in Hansard as saying: "When we have the results of some of these studies and have been able to measure their effectiveness, the effect iveness of the dollars being spent, we will be in a position to move into a major campaign that will show results of a pretty compelling nature through the 19 80s" . Has the effectiveness been measured and when is the campaign going to start? MR.

SHERMAN: The effectiveness of a good deal of the program ming activities of the AFM and the programming activities of agencies funded by the AFM has been measured, Mr. Chairman.

The AFM Board and Adminis tration have identified three major areas requiring immediate init iatives on the part of the AFM and the government and this year's Budget increase reflects a determination to move ahead with them; one of them is the Community Mobilization Program which provides alcohol treatment workers in various communities, in need of that kind of service, commuhities which haven't , up until this point in time, had that on-site service of their own; another is the Youth Program which has been the subject of an exhaustive amount of work by the board and the admin istration of the Foundation and is ready to be introduced at high school and other school-age levels in the coming year; another · was the decision to purchase the Alcare Resource Centre which was a privately operated alcohol treatment facility in Ste.

Rose arid which will continue as an alcohol treatment facility in its same location, a good physical plant in 1712 Ste Rose but which will be oper ated by the Alcoholism Foundation and which will serve as a rehabilit ation and treatment resource cent re for Parklands and WestM ai1 and really gives us now a resource facility in the fight against alcoholism that we have not up to this point in time had.

The hi story of the Alcare arrangement, funding arrangement, is a long and stormy and thorny one and I can only suggest to the committee that this has been a long awaited and very compatible solution to this problem as far as the government and the foundation are concerned. MS. WESTBURV: Well, there's hardly time to ask another question and get an answer, Mr. Chairman, but I'll start anyway. There has been some criticism that not enough of the Budget filters down to the care of the clients.

An example is: In the fiscal year '75-76 with a Budget of less than $3 million and a staff of 91, the AFM handled 6,000 residential and non-residential clients; wher eas in '79-80 with $4.5 million and a staff of 15 0, they handled fewer than 4,000 residential and non-residential client s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, committee rise for Private Members' Hour. Com mittee rise. SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 33 of the Main Es tima tes, Department of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs and Environment. Resolution No. 40, Clause 5. Ma nitoba Housing and Ren ewal Corporation, Item (

a) General Programs - pass. The Honourable Minister. HON. GARV FILMON (R iver Height s): Mr. Chairman, in introducing the Estima tes for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, I'd like to make a few introductory remarks. I've tabled with the Legislature the Annual Report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation for the fiscal year ending March 31, 19 80. I'm advised that in respect to housing stock in place there is, in general terms, an adequate supply of both rental accommodation and sale housing in Ma nitoba.

In fact up until recently, particularly in the Winnip eg area, the housing market was conside red to be somewhat soft. We are informed by the Winnipeg Real Estate Board tha t the market has shown a substantial improvement recently and CMHC reports that the inventory of new homes for sale has been reduced. At the same time I must point out, Mr. Chairman, that there is still a need to be met in providing adequately designed senior citizen housing units in some areas of the City of Winnipeg. In some urban and rural areas of Manitoba, our research indicates a need for both senior citizen housing and family housing.

Although the need for additional housing starts has been greatly reduced problem areas do exist and the level of housing activity will continue to be required to meet these needs. Mr. Chairman, I must inform the House that direct CMHC

Section 43 Loans to the Provinces for the

Monday, 16 March, 1981 construction and development of senior citizen and family units is not available any longer and have not been available for over a year. Therefore, the MHR C, in meeting the needs I've described, must use largely the non-profit

Section 56 (1) of The National Housing Act for the direct development of any housing units. We've been allotted of 200 senior citizen housing units for this purpose by CMHC for the 19 81 year. I am pleased to report on the successful responses we have had from local non-pr ofit housing corporations in the development of senior citizens non-profit housing projects in the City of Winnipeg and in other urban and market centres throughout the province. I will be pleased to giv e more details during the Estimate review.

In rural Manitoba and in rural centres having a population of 2,500 or less, MHR C is still involved in the construction of senior citizen rental housing and family sale housing units under the provisions of the Rural and Northern

Section 40 of The Na tional Housing Act. These senior citizens developments are either in the form of duplexes or motel-type units. Family units are single detached dwellings. Perhaps the most pressing issue in respect to housing has been the question of aff orda bili ty, particularly applicable to renters on fixed or low to moderate incomes. In recognition of the plight of these tenants, the Government of Manitoba through its White Paper Reforms has de veloped thr ee shelter-related programs to be admin istered by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation.

These of cou rse are an impr oved pensio ners' SAFER Program ; a new Pensioner- Tenant School Tax Assistance Program; and the new SAFFR Program for family renters. We presently lead all provinces in the field of shelter-related programs. One of the most sign if icant featu res of the improved SAFER Program and the Pensioner-Tenant School Tax Assistance Program is that for the first time pensioners, age 55 years and over, who are eligible may apply for benefits.

Tenants who are presently livin g in government-su bsidiz ed housing and those who are in receipt of Social Assistance payments are of course not eligible. I'll be pleased to elaborate on other aspects of the programs as the Estimates review progresses. However, I would like to point out that these new shelter-related programs are a bold step forward in providing assistance for the very first time to pensioners and families who rent. This sector of our society has not previously received assistance in their shelter costs. Mr.

Chairman, in closing I would like to inform the committee that the corporation is continuing to place con certed empha sis in the ma nagemen t, mai ntenance and upgrading of its housing stock within the province to achieve a high standard of energy efficiency, fire safety and comfort for our tenants. All other programs admin istered by the corporation are being sustained at consistent levels. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Ho nourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr.

Chairman, I too want to make just but a very few general comments and reflections on the introductory remarks made by my honourable fri end, the Mi nister resp onsible for MHR C. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, from the outset 1713 that we, of course, still regard, as we always have, MHR C as being a valuable component, not only in the provision of housing for the underprivileged, those who because of economic circumstances are not able to independently afford the same quality of housing as many of their neighbours, but also, Mr.

Chairman, becaus e we recogn ize that it is an economic lever, it is a tool that can be used by government to enhance and certainly balance and modify the housing construction cycles which prevail in the provincial economy from time to time. So we want to say that we are happy that many of the programs that were introd uced under our go vernment had been, in one shape, form or another, retai ned.

I suppos e we're glad, we're heartened that the government has seen fit to maintain them although of course at this time I wouldn't elaborate as to whether we regard the level of maintenance to be adequate; we'll discuss them item by item as we go through the Estimates. Mr. Chairman, having said that, I want to say that and - if I might dig ress for a moment - I presume that we're either going to be turning these lights off, are we going to be regulating them at the same intensity becaus e they are now beg inning to fluctuate?

Since I'm the one who has the floor I can say that I think we're all going to find them quite bothersome if they' -re left on during the norma l progress of the House's business. MR. CHAIRMAN: The item under discussion is Manitoba Ho using and Renewal Corporat ion and something is being done about it at this time. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, to go on and get bac k to the matter at hand, I can say that we are alarmed at the state of the housing market in Manitoba and particularly Winnipeg today. Mr.

Chairman, there has been much said about this and in the course of my honourable friend's remarks he mentioned the fact tha t there was an optim istic progn osis by the Winnip eg Real Estate Association last week indicating that there was an upswing in the volume of res idential sales in the City of Winnip eg. Mr. Chairman, he said that this was ind icative of the changing situation vis-a-vis the residential housing market. As that impacts on construction levels I would say that there is no reason at this point to believe that such is the case. It may be true, Mr.

Chairman, that there is a proportionate increase in the volume of resales in the used home market but there is nothing to indicate that there is any greater construction activity in the new housing market. Mr. Chairman, I say that this is cause for gr ave concern because, Mr. Chairman, as I think most of us are aware, in years past we have had construction activity that generated jobs to the extent that some 16 percent of the work forc e was invo lved in construction trades and affiliated industry. That's certainly true, Mr. Chairman, of the years that 1 remember best around the 19 75, '76 and '77 period. Mr.

Chairman, today in Manitoba we have lost many of our trades people and we have lost, as well, Mr. Chairman, many -(I nterjection)- It doesn't rate against parting the waters but I did my best. Mr. Chairman , today, in Manitoba we have a situation where we have lost a considerable number of tradesman. It depends whose statistics you believe but in consulting with the Winnip eg Construction

Monday, 16 March, 1981 ----------------------------- Association. Mr. Chairman, and I believe that their information is reliable. I am led to believe that we have lost some 3,200 to 3,300 jobs in constrL ction in the past three to four years. Mr. Chairman, I said that some 16 percent of the work force used to be involv ed in construction, labour and related trades. Well, today, we have some 26,000 trade srren and 2.900 accessory people and tha t would include people like draftsmen, and engi neers. and architects and so on, who work in the building- related ind ustries. In 19 76-77, Mr.

Chairman, we had some 29.000 tradesmen and some 3,200 accessory people. So. accor ding to the Winn ipeg Cons truction Association figures, we have lost over 3,000 jobs in the construction trades. Mr. Chairman, that is an alarming decrease . I think that it ind icates a dramatic shift in the pr:>Vince's economy and when we consider, Mr. Chairman, the spin-off effect, or I should say the spin-off negative effect. of the loss of over 3,000 jobs. one can imagine, I think, the impact this really has on the community as a whole.

The impact it has in terms of loss of purchasing power, general loss or lack of buo yancy in the economy; it contri but·�s. Mr. Chairman, to a lack of confidence. So, Mr. Chairman, I say that MHRC is a ·1aluable tool which I believe the government should L se as a buffer or a modifier of busine ss cycles. I'm not indicating, Mr. Chairman, and for the record I do not wish to ind icate that I belie ve that all tl1at has happened to the Manitoba Construction Trad ·�s. is as a result only of this gove rnment's activity; but I also don 't want to indicate, Mr. Chairman, that what has happened is not as a result.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the truth lies somewhere in betwee n. It is certainly true •. Mr. Chairman, that this gov·�rnment cou ldn't control the high inter est ra tes from Manitoba. It is also correct, Mr. Chairman, I think one can say that it is accurate to s