VOL. 3 NO. 27 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 8, 1981

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1035 AH-1 The House met at 3p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair.

MR.SPEAKER (Sirnms) : Order, please I have a coqmunication here which I received from the Secretary to His Honour the Lieutenant- which was addressed to His Honour and it reads, 'Your Honour: Your letter of March 6th to the Governor General was forwarded to Buckingham Palace. \ I have now been informed by the Private secretary to the Queen that your letter was laid before the Queen who received the message with much pleasure and greatly appreciated the congratulations and good wishes of the members of the House of Assembly of Newfoundland on the engagement of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer' And it is signed, -- I guess that is, Mr. 7Edmond Joly de Lotbiniere, Administrative Secretary to the Governor General.

MR. E. ROBERTS: Where is out (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: I think that would recuire a separate motion. ORPL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor- Buchans. MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Forests Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) growing out of his statement yesterday to the House re. the export of pulpwood,I wanted to ask the minister for a second that it seems he is nct necessarily keeping with his local preference policy, Mr.Speaker7 when two companies headquartered in )uebec -Montreal,Quebec and Boucherville Ouebec. What is the situation Mr.

Minister,when we find that oulpwood salvaced in Newfoundland is being -- salvaged and sold by companies headquartered in Quebec? 2901

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1035 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: Have we not qot enough people involved in the sawmilling industry or the lumber industry in Newfoundland to meet that requirenient? MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. minister of Forest Resources and Lands. 2902

April 8, 1981 Tape 1036 EC - 1 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, certainly the process that we went through last Summer, having gone to Europe and brought many of the European purchaseres of pulpwood to the Province and met with many of Newfoundland's private sawmillers and pulpwood producers - AN NON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)bankrupt. MR. POWER: No, only one is gone bankrupt which is not necessarily - that is Mr. Van Beek, but I think that was a problem that he had with his markets in France, or the company he was selling to in France went bankrupt and, of course, caused his subsequent bankruptcy.

But certainly the process we went through, Mr. Speaker, was informing all persons in Newfoundland who had an interest in either cutting or harvesting or marketing pulpwood to make proposals to government. We put in a deadline for October 31st of last year, which was done. We received bids from many companies and there were several other companies from the mainland also, Mr. Speaker. Those two companies that we did dive export permits to - one, I believe, a Mr.

Otto Muck, who has been a long-time broker of international commodities, particularly pulpwood, from all parts of Eastern Canada, his export permits are for in one case in the Stephenville area, 15,000 cords, if I remember correctly, for harvest only, and I think for 15,000 cords in the Bay d'Espoir for either harvest or to purchase. That person, Mr.

Speaker, is in close conjunction with a Newfoundland person and company who have a lot of experience in the harvesting of pulpwood, particularly as it related to Labrador Linerboard operations, so a Newfoundland company will be certainly supplying all the labour, will be doing all the harvesting operation and will simply be using Mr. Otto Huck as a broker in Montreal to sell on the world marketplace the pulpwood that he produces. 2903

April 8, 1981 Tape 1036 EC - 2 MR. POWER: The same situation applies to the company from Boucherville, Quebec, who are also just primarily brokers who are coming to Newfoundland, who will, I suppose, buy from small Newfoundland sawmilling operations, will buy from skidder operators or pulpwood harvesters a certain amount of wood which then they will take and sell on the world market. It is not possible, Mr. Speaker, to have every single sawmilling operation sell as an individual entity on the world market the pulp- wood that he produces.

There are occasions where brokers have to take the place and bring some of this pulpwood together so that they can sell it on the world market in a fairly large amount. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting also to see a fish exporting company getting into the wood exporting business, but at least it is - MR. LUSH: Ocean Harvesters. MR. FLIGHT: - Ocean Harvesters, Mr. Speaker, always associated with the fishery, now getting into the wood export. That is an interesting concept.

But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister - he says this programme is to facilitate integrated sawlog operations. I want to ask the minister if any of the timber being s42p ot of the Province of which 130,000 cords of timber will be sawlog material, is everything that can be cut going to be sent out or is there going to be an effort to cream off the sawlogs and make the sawlogs available to sawmillers in Newfoundland who, as he knows, are now starving for raw material, or will be retaining the sawlogs? 2904

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1037 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, just as a matter of explanation,in the members sort of preliminary remarks he talks about Ocean Harvesters, which is a fishing company, getting involved in the export of timber.

It is interestina to note that company being very aggressive and innovative, I suppose, When they went to Iceland or got some, I suppose, quarries from Iceland when they happened to be there visiting some of the fish facilities in Iceland, saw that there was a demand for starrigans, fish flake material, and certain vessels that are ordinarily transporting between Europe and Canada, using the St. Lawrence Seaway particularly, now on their return trips to Europe drop by Newfoundland and pick up some of these, I guess what we call starrigans sort of flake material that runs anywhere from - MR.

ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. POWER: Well we call them starriqans. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) on the Southern Shore they may call than starrigans. MR. POWER: I guess it depends on what part of Newfoundland you are talking about. This stuff runs about twenty feet in length and about two inches in diameter, MR. ROBERTS: Those are longers. MR. POWER: Longers if you want, okay. AN HON. MEMBER: Slabs. MR. POWER: So that company has certainly been innovated in that sense of creating a market and creating some Newfoundland jobs as a result.

As it relates to the export of saw log material, we do not permit in this Province , primarily based upon local preference and of course the fact that we do not want to export any unnecessarily unprocessed raw material, we do not permit the export of saw log from the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 2905

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1037 SD - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Sioms) Supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Sneaker, it would seem from the areas the minister indentified that most of this tirnbr, the 130,000 cords,would come from Hay dEspoir, Roddickton, Main Brook and Dais Verte Peninsula. Now it would seem to me that none of that,or very little of those limits are - those s0uld Crown limits. What I want to ask the minister is is any of this timber going to be cut on the paper companies' limits for export? Now, Mr.

Speaker, as the minister knows, of course' the timber on Crown lands infested by the budworm is nothing absolutely nothing compared to the amount of timber on the paper companies' limits infested by the budworm. So I want to know, Mr. Speaker, what we are doing, whether we are going tabs exporting any of the timber on the companies' limits? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of all of the details of the negotiations with the company but I am aware of the fact that at least 35,000 cords of this wood will be from paner company limits an the Baie Verte Peninsula. That has been negotiated. We are also presently having negotiations for an extra 20,000 cords from company limits that is not involving this agreement. So the actual export permits may go from 130,000 cords to 150,000 cords because of an extra amount we are getting from paper company limits. Mr.

Speaker, it is an on going concern for us that in the Province where you have several millions of cords of wood damaged that we can only export 150,000 cords however some of it is totally inaccessible 2906

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1037 SD - 3 MR. POWER: We are forcing the company through their management plans , as we have done in many parts of the Province,to use as much of it as humanly possible in the mills in Grand Falls, Corner Brook and of course in Stephenville when it opens up. So we are working very closely with the companies on one hand to make sure that all of this timber that is exported is not from Crown limits, that as much as possible comes from company limits and also as much as possible of damaged wood on company limits is used by the companies in Newfoundland. MR. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2907

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1038 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: This is a qucik

preamble, Mr. Speaker; the minister knows there are over 8,000,000 cords of budworm infested timber on paper companies limits and they can only utilize 100,000 cords per year. So, Mr. Sneaker, either we arrange to have timber on company limits exported or utilized some way or the bulk of the timber, the 8,000,000,is going to be lost to the economy of the Province. So, either we do start exporting timber off Price (Nfld.) and Sowaters Limited or we are going to lose the bulk of the budworm infested timber. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my final supp- lementary is that these companies that are going to cut now for export under a salvaging programme, will they be paying stumpage to the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify the correct amount of figures, there are 16,000,000 cords of wood that are severely infested and dying because of spruce bud- worm infestation in the Province,not 8,000,000. MR. FLIGHT: Eight million dead. MR.

POWER: There are 8,000,000 cords that may be lost if we as a government and the companies do not get involved in export the salvage operation. In reality the companies in Newfoundland are using up to forty per cent of the 900,000 cords or so that they use in their operations now. Soit is much more than 100,000 cords they are using. It is closer to 360,000 of budworm infested timber that they are using in Grand Falls and Corner Brook 2908

April 8, 1981 Tape Mo. 1038 EL-2 MR. POWER: today. So they have to do that, Mr. Speaker, under our forest management agreement. As it relates to the export of wood, all the companies involved will certainly be required to pay a royalty to the govern- ment which approximates stumpage and which will certainly give a return to the Province. MR. FLIGHT: What about the question? MR. POWER: They pay royalties. MR. FLIGHT: No stumpage. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I gather we have settled that there is no stumpage, Mr.

Speaker, and it seems to be a valid point for my friend to pursue. Mr. Speaker, a question in the absence of the Premier for, Iguess,the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) would be the one. It grows out of the Premier's ministerial responsibilities as the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs, I think that is a correct description of that portfolio.

Last week, if the minister will recall, I asked the Premier whether he could make some invest- igations into the sequence of events that have transpired between the government here and the government in Ottawa with respect to DREE road agreements and the Premier made certain statements and I asked if he would check them because he confirmed he was speaking from memory and memory can be fallible. I wonder if the ME

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1039 DW - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: minister can tell us whether any opportunity has been taken to check those statements and - see whether the Premier's recollection is correct or not? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon the President of the • Council. \ MR. N. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I cannot state with assurity but I do remember the Premier has been out of the House pretty well since that period of tine. I have the irnpression,and I put in quotation marks the word impression: that the hon.

Premier did check and did find that there was nothing which he stated which was contra- dictory to what was contained in his correspondence. But I would, Mr. Speaker, like to inform the hon. member that we would want to have that checked and I know the Premier when he comes back in the House will be able to respond in much more detail. I would not take it definitively but it was my irnpression,when I was speaking with the hon.

Premier after that particular day when the Question Period arose and the hon. member asked the question, that there was nothing that was inconsistent in his correspondence with the statements he made at the period of time. But before it is accepted as the actual gospel I would want to check with the hon. Premier on that fact. MR. E. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I hear what the minister says and 1 know he says impressions.

So I certainly will not go beyond that except that to suggest that I am under a different impression that I think itwould be wise to check. I wonder though, growing out of i, if the minister would undertake to lay upon the table of the House whatever written communications-and - assume there are some. I do not know that but I assume there 2910

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1039 DW - 2 MR ... ROBERTS: are some-written communications that may have passed between the minister at Ottawa, Mr. De Bane and our minister, the Premier, with respect to DREE roads agree- ments during - let us take the calendar period of the 1980/ 81 fiscal year which is the year, of course, that ended two or three days past or a week past. I think that would solve the matter. And I have a reason for asking because I think it is a very important issue as to when the Province became aware -------------------- that there would be no DREE roads agreements.

I am not sure we have the full story yet. MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the Premier would have no objection to doing this when he returns subject to the caveat always that there is not something in the correspondence which happens to be a matter of confidential communication between one government and the other, which I am sure the hon. member will appreciate. I will draw it to 2911

April 8, 1981, Tape 1040, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: the hon. the Premiers attention hen he returns. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Sixrims) : A supplementary. The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, if I might, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the caveat about confidentiality and I assume that means that if the letter is not marked 'private and confidential' then the Premier is willing to table it.

But could the minister - the Premier will be back in the House, I know not when - could the minister, perhaps, get in touch with the Premier, or with officials, and give us and answer possibly tomorrow or even Friday? We have been waiting a week now. I know the Premier has much on his mind, but I wonder if we could have an answer? It is a very important point, it has very wide ramifications, I do want to know the answers. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: I certainly undertake to get in touch with the Premier but, I mean, whether the hon. the Premier in his present activities can be contacted, he is moving about the place where he is so fast, and with such success - MR. ROBERTS: He is certainly not (inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: - he is a hard party, Mr. Speaker, to catch up with at the present time. But I will, of course, mention it to the hon.the Premier.

I would not wish to undertake with the hon. member that it would be tabled immediately, but you can certainly expect the hon. the Premier back in the House by Monday, and at that period of time I am sure he will be able to deal with it. But in the duration, if something can be done we will 2912

April 8, 1981, Tape 1040, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: certainly undertake to do it. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I have a question for the Minister of Finance arising out of the debate on interim supply. During that debate, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) if he would look into the luxurious appointments given to the Opposition in this building with a view, perhaps, to cutting back on them. I would like to ask the minister now if he has had a chance to go down and view these - MR. LUSH: Do not answer him. MR.

CARTER: I would like to ask the minister now if he has had a chance to go down and investigate this opulence before the Opposition has a chance to hide some of the more luxurious appointments? 2913

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1041 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Sirnms) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member used the - what is it? A verb, I think is it, 'to look into'. I am not exactly certain if he means look into it,shall we say,from the point of view of investigation or if he meant look into in terms of observation, just simple observation. I can tell the hon. minister that I did look into the quarters occupied by the Opposition members on a social basis I think when the House rose last June. I think there was a gathering and I was invited and at that time R. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) DR.

COLLINS: - to find out where I was going I did actually look into the area and I actually looked around the area - AN HON. MEMBER: - had a drink with the minister. DR. COLLINS: - having entered. And I think that I was impressed by the decor. I was rather taken with the size and the whole area was rather pleasing, rather spacious. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, I did not look into it in the other sense,in terms of carrying out a definitive investigation. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) wishes to yield for a supplementary MR. LUSH: I yield. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I wonder if the minister would under- take to exchange our opulent quarters that he has looked-into with the opulent quarters available to other members of the House who sit in support of the government. If sowhen can the exchange begin? MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible) not too bad. MR. ROBERTS: Careful,'Haig' or we will find out how much you spent on carpets. 2914

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1041 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot recall in the recent past a similar type of invitation although going back a bit further than that I did have a similar type of invitation to the quarters occupied by government members. So I do not think it would fair from my memory to compare the two. It is not my prerogative anyway to allot space like that,I am afraid. MR. ROBERTS: Well said. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.

LUSH: Mr. speaker, a question for the Minister of Forest kesources and Lands, on the same topic as my hon. friend and colleague, the member for Windsor- Buchans, and specifically I want to 2915

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1042 AH-1 MR. LUSH: question the minister with respect to the areas which will be harsted . The minister mentions in the last paragraph but one that the areas involved stretch across the Province with major emphasis in the areas of Bay i'Espoir. We go a good distance before we mention them and they are supposed to stretch across the Province.

Specifically I would like to know whether the ona'rsta Ray area is included in this, which is a larqe forested area, a lot of logging activity going on there in that whole Bonavista Bay area, the Bonavista Peninsula right up around to the.Northeast coast and into Gander. I wonder if there isanyharvestinc activity going on in that area specifically? MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR.POWER: Mr. Speaker, it seems I cannot win. I hear the Oppositior ''"olaining sometimes that Ministerial Statements are too long and contain to much information and unnecessary material.

Yesterday I tried to make a Ministerial Statement of some pertinence and tried to keep it reasonably short and to the point,and now I find -1at I did not probably include enough information to include the actual areas. I can give the member just a general breakdown as I recollect it, but I will also be glad to bring him in a map tomorrow and the actual blocks of where the wood is being taken. My memory may not have the actual details of that., I know there are thirty-five thousand cords from the Baie Verte Peninsula,and there is another thirty- five to forty thousand cords from the Bay d'Espoir region.

There are two operations, one for fifteen thousand cords from the Roddickton area which is an integrated sawmillinq approach. That is not budworin salvage but primarily something to make the sawmilling operation that much more viable. MR. ROBERTS: Canada Bay,is it? 2916

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1042 AH-2 MR. POWER: That is Canada Bay and a new one in Main Brook, Maynard's rpill,which is a DREE agreement that they have just signed to get a mill going there.In order to make that sawmilling one of the conditions of the sawmillinq agreement with the DREE people was the fact that they would be allowed to export pulpwood so we have also given them, I believe, ten or fifteen thousand cords. So we have Roddickton, Main Brook, the Stephenville area where there is fifteen thousand cords coming from - . FLIiT: All Crowr. land.. MR.

POWER: - also some in the Baie Verte area which is company land and some from Bay d'spoir. But as I say,those details are not accurate,, they are just general. I am not sure. I will be glad to get the information for the member. MR.LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary. The hon. member for Terra Nova MR. LtJSH: Mr. Speaker, I was intrigued by the names mentioned, Bay D'Espoir, Roddickton.

Main Brook and Baie Verte and then the minister in my question did not name the area I questioned about but did put in another one, Stephenville,and it rather sounded like a roads list for paving submitted by the Department of Transportation and Communications. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I would like for the minister to undertake to find out whether that large area, the Bonavista Bay area, the Northeast Coast up around Gander, Central Newfoundland in other words,is included in this programme? My question, Mr. Speaker, to the minister is, What was the procedure followed in the selection of these companies?

Was this advertised? Just what was the procedure used? MR.SPEAKER: - The hon. minister. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I outlined 2917

April 8, 1981 Tape NO. 1043 EL - 1 MR. POWER: in my opening remarks to the first question from the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) , the precedure that we did use. Primarily we went through the advertising procedures and also sent telexes to anyone in Newfoundland who was involved in any serious way in the harvesting of pulpwood at the time, either for com- panies or for export. The proposals that we got back were some of some significance, the ones that we talked about in the statement yesterday. We did have proposals back from other persons who possibly had no experience.

I know a couple of teachers from one part of the Province applied who had no harvesting experience, had no market and were not giving an export permit at that time. So we had that type of thing happening, but most of the persons who were serious about the export market, who had some harvesting experience, we aertainly dealt with very fairly and aboveboard and any- body who wanted to could apply. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I do not expect the minister to have this information available-if he does, fine- but I am just wondering if the minister could undertake, if he does not have that information now, to provide the House with what amount of wood, what cordage is given each company. I expect that there is a cordage given to each company, so could the minister undertake to supply the House with specifically what cordage is given each contractor? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I guess I could come in tomorrow with another Ministerial Statement saying exactly 2918

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1043 EL - 2 MR. POWER: what areas we are going to have and exactly the cordages given to each company but I will certainly undertake to get that for the House and possibly table it tomorrow rather than make the statement on it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Any further questions? The hon.member for Torngat Moun- tains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Consumer Affairs.

In view of a meeting yesterday in Happy Valley - Goose Bay where re- presentatives of the combined councils meeting in Labrador, the combined councils of Labrador had a meeting and there were questions asked to one of the ministers whether there will be an investigation into the cost of food in the Prov- ince, in particular in Labrador where prices in Labrador are way higher than anywhere else on the Island. 2919

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1044 DW - 1 MR. G. WARREN: Is the minister now intending to have an investigation into food pricing in the Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, yes, the Consumer Affairs people in conjunction with the appropriate officials in the Department of Mines and Energy are planning a study with respect to fuel prices with one of the purposes being to attempt to find the reasons for the differences in those prices. MR. G. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I said 'food not 'fuel', and I do not know what Mines and Energy has to do with food. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: I thought you said 'fuel'. MR. G. WARREN: I think, Mr. Speaker, if we look at the Daily News paper on Tuesday we could see that a box of food in the Province,and in particular in Labrador City and in Goose Bay, it is way above the average in other communities. So what I am asking is that are we going to - the Premier announced that about six or seven months ago when his wife went shopping - and the prices have not been reduced. I am just wondering is the minister still going to wait?

How much longer is the minister going to wait before he does ask for an investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, that investigation is such, you know, that obviously that can mean a great number of things certainly in terms of food prices in Labrador and,indeed, throughout the Province. We are aware obviously of quite high costs and inflation but also of the factor - and this is, I think , what the hon. gentleman is alluding to and that is the discrepancies in prices, some- times in different parts of the Province but 10 in the 2920

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1044 DW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: sante particular region of the Province there could be discrepancies as well. We are aware of that. We are examing the various options to see, you know, what is the mostefficacious way of dealing with it. Obviously ine important thing is public informa- tion,which I think the hon. member will agree that we have made some worthwhile progress there. There is much more now public information and that, I think, is a very important factor.

Because obviously there is a competi- tive element and when people know of price discrepancies a lot of the responsibility or a certain amount of it rests on the consumer him or herself. And that is one aspect of it. 2921

April 8, 1981 Tape 1045 EC 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: There are other aspects as well. We are looking at the various possibilities open but to date no decision has been made as to what the next move should be. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want again, Mr. Speaker, to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands with regard to his answer to an earlier question.

Would the minister tell the House why it is that these comanies, all fairly reputable companies in their own right - the timber they are shipping out of this Province is as valuable in the market that it is being received as if it were not budworm infested, that has nothing to do with it. This timber is as valuable. The land the timber is coming off, Mr. Speaker, needs reforestation and good forest management programmes in the future to see that the forest regenerates itself. So why are these companies, Mr.

Speaker, who will make some money on this, not be charged stumpage by the Province of Newfoundland for the timber they are cutting and exporting? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, let me see if I can clarify the situation. The stumpage or royalty fees are paid by the harvester, not by the export companies as such. If they happen to be one and the same, if, for instance, Mavnards cut on one hand and export on the other, it is the cutting side of the operation to which the stumpage fees are charged.

If you have Otto Huck or Henders'on from Montreal or from Quebec, who are simply 2922

April 8, 1981 Tape 1045 EC - 2 MR. POWER: buying timber in the Province, then the stumpage fee has already been paid by the harvesters. So a stumpage fee does not necessarily have to be paid by the export company, it is paid by the person who produces. They may be one and the same, but then again, they may not be. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAXER (Sims) A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister would tell us if the people are cutting the wood for the exporter?

Because it is the exporter who is going to put the dollars up in this case, Mr. Speaker. He is going to have small contractors cutting wood that he can export and on which he is going to make some money. Now, will the private contractor who is going tosupply the wood to the exporter, will that contractor, will the people who cut the wood pay stumpage to the Province in this case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes in some circumstances and no in another. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: A firm maybe? MR.

POWER: A firm maybe, if you want, but the situation is such that if the person in the example that you used here, the company that is harvesting the wood selling it to a broker to allow it to be sold on the world market, it is possible that there can be an arrangement made, depending upon the price paid by the broker to the harvester, and that price will either take into account that stumpage has been paid by the individual or will be collected and reimbursed to the government by the export company. 2923

April 8, 1981, Tape 1046, page 1 --- apb MR. POWER: In either case, from a government point of view, we charge stumpage based upon harvest. That sturnpage is paid to the government either directly by the harvester or by the exporting company. But in reality, Mr. Speaker, the stumpage fee relates to a harvesting. Whether it is used in the Province or outside the Province does not really make a difference, as long as we collect it. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): A final supplementary. The hon. the member for Windsor - Euchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I sin confused. The minister said he was confused.

In the first part of the Question Period the minister answered an emphatic 'no' that the stumpage was not being paid to the Province on the 130,000 cords of pulp wood that are going to be exported. Now, Mr. Speaker, is stumpage being paid? I do not care who it is being paid by, whether it is being paid by the exporter or the harvester; will the Province receive stumpage for the 130,000 cards of wood that we --- --- are going to cut and export? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, you are going to have to bear witli me when I bring in my next Ministerial Statement, it is said to be several pages long. Mr. Speaker, there are going to be 130,000 cords of wood cut in the Province, stumpage is to be paid to the provincial government; that will be paid either by the harvesters or collected by the export company, based upon the arrangements that they work out amongst themselves, okay? Stumpage will be paid to the Province. MR. FLIGHT: Why did you say no on the first question? What you need is a quick call to Sterling Hoddinott. 2924

April 8, 1981, Tape 1046, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The time for Oral Questions has aspired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICif NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN 'S MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I wis.h to table the answer to question 39. This question was asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), and / it was essentially the same question that was asked previously and answered on June 6, 1980. It is really just an update on that answer. It relates to the resignation of the former Deputy Minister of Finance. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: This being Private Members' Day we are debating motion number 1, which was moved by the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (iMr. Hancock) I believe the debate the last day was adjourned by the hon. the Minister of Rural, Northern and Agricultural Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Northern and Agricultural Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that I have something like four or five minutes left. MR. SPEAR: The hon. the member has approximately five minutes. MR. ROBERTS: By Leave'. MR.

GOUDIE: I thank the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) for leave, but S I do not think I will take him up on the invitation today. 2925

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1047 NM - 1 MR. GOtJDIE: All I was suggesting last week, Mr. Speaker, was that in relation to resource development, and obviously resource development is the primary concern in this particular motion7 resource development will take place to a great extent within the confines of my district and other districts in Labrador. And I think what I would like to do in concluding my remarks, Mr. Speaker, is to do two things; number one, to suggest to the hon. member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr.

Hancock), in whose name this motion stands on the Order Paper today, is that whether or not I support the motion will depend entirely on how well he addresses himself in the final remarks in concluding the debate. And secondly, to point out to him one resource that we have in Labrador, and in his district and other areas of the Island part of the Province, and provide him with a sample of how this particular resource can be developed in one particular way. Last night I came back from Labrador from attending the combined councils meetings, along with my colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), and one of the tremendous resources we have in Northern Labrador is approximately 200,000 head of caribou which are harvested to a certain extent each year. The season remains open until the 25th. of April,I believe,and as an example of one of the ways that that resource can be used, if one of the pages would be so kind as to oblige, perhaps the young lady here, could take this sample to the memer for St. Mary's-The Capes - MR. HANCOCK: I tasted it downstairs. MR. COUDIE: - that he can u cecide on whether or not he likes something called nitku. MR.

HANCOCK: - that one to be better than the other one. 2926

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1047 NM - 2 MR. GOUDIE: Nitku is dried caribou neat, * Mr. Speaker, one of the ways in which the native peoples of the Labrador portion of our Province at least prepare caribou neat and that is one example of it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please I night tell the hon. member that he has actually nine minutes remaining, not five minutes. So he can go until three forty-six. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I will suggest that I will not take advantage of the nine minutes remaining. My remarks were made last week and with that sample sent over to the hon. member for St.

Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock) then I will conclude my remarks by saying simply, Mr. Speaker, meskametin. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for Torngat ounta ins. 2927

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1048 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, in rising in support of this motion so ably put forward by my colleague the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock), I am going to run down through the resolution: 'WHEREAS THE PROVINCE of Newfoundland and Labrador has the highest unemployment record in Canada' . Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any disagreement on either side of the House, any disagreement at all on the other side of the House that that is a true fact. It is fact, number one,and it is a true fact. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to relate it to my own district of Torngat Mountains where at the present time, and this is' a very clearly probably accurate statistic in the Torngat Mountain district, the unemployment record in Canada - now the Torngat district, yes, by the way, is the district that I represent it is the furthermost district in Northern Labrador. At the present time, this past month, the unemployment rate in the Torngat Mountains district is something like 66 per cent. MR. FLIGHT: What? MR. WARREN: Sixty-six per cent unemployment. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would think that this government should look more seriously at the things that are very essential for the survival of people because we know - now that is only just one district. I bet if you go into the district of Eagle River you will find a similar instance if you go into the Naskaupi district, in the district of the hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) , I would venture to say that the employment rate is way up in the forties, the unemployment insurance rate is probably up in the forties in that district.' So, Mr.

Speaker, that part of the resolution is absolutely correct. We do have the highest 2928

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1048 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: unenrnloyment record in Canada. 'AND

WHEREAS there are a number of areas in the Province where the unemployment figures are far beyond the provincial average' - now I just gave you an example - 'AND

WHEREAS many areas of the Province depend on a single resource'; how true, Mr. Speaker. At the oresent time the only resource in my district is the fishery. The fishery is the only resource and if that falls there is not another thing available, Mr. Speaker. So therefore as the 2929

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1049 EL - 1 MR. WARREN: hon. the Minister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Develop- ment said earlier, I also have a piece of dried caribou meat. It is very delicious, Mr. Speaker, it is very delicious and it is a human resource, Mr. Speaker. I am going to ask the hon. Mr. Speaker have a piece, Mr. Speaker. It would be right that you as the Speaker of the house should this very valuable resource because, Mr.

Speaker, this resource comes right from the heart of my district, right from Nain itself and it is cured by the people in try district and I assure you that if you take this and eat it, I am sure that you will say it is the second to none that you have tasted. So, Mr. Speaker, if one of the pages would come along I would gladly ask them to take this to you. So, Mr. Speaker, this is a resource that could be developed. This is a resource that could be developed and furthermore I think what we should do in conjunction with the Minister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development (J.

Goudie) is for all members of this hon. House and even the Press to taste this very valuable and delicious food and let the people know that there is a resource available and a potential re- source available right up in the heart of Torngat Mountains. Now, Mr. Speaker, and we have the resources already known and available to our Province could, if properly developed, provide food and permanent employment to everyone in the growing Newfoundland and Labrador labour force. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know, I suppose it was only just pure coincidence that the hon. member for Naskaupi and myself travelled last night together and we came into the 2930

April 8, 1981 Tape Mo. 1049 EL 2 MR. WARRENt possession of this valuable resource that we decided today in speaking to the resolution that we would just give an example of how some resources are available in this Province that should be exploited. 2S31

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1050 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, last week the member for St. Johns North (Mr. Carter) rose in speaking on this resolution and he started going back over the Smallwood era. He started bringing in Smallwood and his government of days gone by into the picture. He started going over all the in- dustries that were closed down. He never mentioned, Mr. Speaker, about the industrial development park in Donovans that was started up by the Smallwood administration. He never mentioned, Mr. Speaker, about the Marystown Shipyard. He never mentioned, Mr. Speaker, about Newfoundland Hardwoods.

There are many, many others, Mr. Speaker, that he did not even mention. So, Mr. Speaker, what I have done, I went through the last ten years, from 1972 up to the present day. Mr. Speaker, what industries have closed down, what industries? 1972 - nil; 1973 - nil; 1974 - nil; and so on Mr. Speaker, and I got up to 1981 and I did not put down nil because we are only midway through 1981 but I put down nothing to date.

Although yesterday, a couple of days ago there was some kind of an announcement made for activity in Arnold's Cove that there is going to be some kind of a development for offshore oil and gas, now whether that has anything to do with the by-election out there or not I do not know, Mr. Speaker. So we could look back over the last eight or nine years, the last eight or nine years we could see that this government did not close down too many of their own industries due to the fact that they did not start any industries. Sr- Mr.

Speaker, if the government does not start anything, 'iow can anything close down that is not started in the first place? Mr. Speaker, for the past ten years this government has been occupied on nothingness, occupied witf nothing at all. What a record What a record, Mr. Speaker, this government has. Mr. Speaker, what record 2932

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1051 NM - 2 MR. Th.RREN: this government has for the past ten years. So, therefore, I think this is a very valuable resolution. This is a very valuable resolution and I believe, I believe that this government would do what is necessary for a government to do, instead of ministers in this Rouse 2933

April 8, 1981 Tape 1051 EC - 1 getting and making Ministerial Statements on hearsay, • with no foundation to half of the statements they are making, like the one the hon. the Minister of Forest - Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) made, I think, the statement that he made yesterday and a couple that are here on my desk. Mr. Speaker, I am sure there are many reputable companies, small businesses, logging companies that could do the harvesting and selling of this wood over and above the companies that the hon. the minister named. Today, Mr.

Speaker, I had a call from a constituent of mine - in fact, I think it must have been fifteen or twenty calls I received the last three or four weeks. And it was a concern. It may not have anything to do with this particular motion, Mr. Speaker, but I want to relay to the House what is happening, what this government is doing in the Torngat Mountains. And I am glad that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is in his seat because I think it is very, very valuable. It is too bad that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) is not here because his department is the one that is involved. Mr. Speaker, since way back in the early 1950s the provincial government took over the operation of retail stores in five of the communities in my district. Now, the whole operation - they did every- thing from supplying food, hardware, clothing, everything was carried in these stores. Anyone having their cheques would just go in and they wru]d cash your cheque, and it was to carry on the whole business of the community, Mr. Speaker.

Now, within, the past five or six months there have been many very dramatic changes taking place in stores in 2934

April 8, 1981 Tape 1051 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: Makkovik, Hopedale, Postville, Davis Inlet and Nain. Now, a dramatic change has taken place, Mr. Speaker, and I have heard that the changes have taken place because of regulations or government policy. Now, I cannot recall - and I have been in the House for the past two years - I cannot recall any policy changes in things that have been going on for the last twenty-five years. So I will tell you what has happened, Mr. Speaker. Two days ago an Inuit hunter wanted to go caribou hunting. That is a very valuable resource - caribou. He wanted to go caribou hunting 2935

April 8, 1981, Tape 1052, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: so the motor in a skidoo is just an example. The motor in the skidoo was gone so he had to buy a new motor. He had his refund on income tax come, a $1300 or $1400 cheque, and he could not buy a skidoo motor for $400. Now,why? Here is the reason why: The government stores there, along the coast, will not cash cheques, will not carry money to cash people's cheques.. Now, is that not a degrading formula for this government to £ullow? All along the coast, Mr. Speaker, they are not carrying any money to cash cheques.

Now, there are people in Nain, in Hopedale, in Makkovik, in Postville, and in Davis Inlet who have cheques; the child credit returns, income tax refunds, social assistance cheques, and the government store there is not carrying enough money to change cheques for those people. Now, they have their money - they cannot get any credit at the store because they are not allowed - but they cannot even cash their cheques. MR. AYLWARD: How do they change them ordinarily? MR.

WARREN: Ordinarily, until about four or five months ago, the government stores would, each month, carry enough money to change cheques, about $30,000 or $40,000 at a time. All of a sudden this is cut out. This is a degrading service that is administered by this government. Now, Mr. Speaker, that was just one example. Every month, as I said earlier, there. is roughly 66 per cent unemployed and that means they are either on social assistance or on unemployment insurance. Each month they get social assistance cheques or unemployment insurance cheques. So likewise, Mr. Speaker, there are all kinds of problems.

I have talked to representatives of the department who are up there, civ - servants, and their 2936

April 8, 1981, Tape 1052, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: hands are tied because some- body, who is supposed to have authority, is writing them letters and saying, Look, you are not allowed to cash any more cheques Take, for example, a teacher in Hopedale, Mr. Speaker, in fact, I would say any hon. member here, if he were living in a remotearea as I was for many years - my cheque from the government would just go into the bank and when I needed - I did not need any amount of money up North. When I needed money to buy food I would go down and write out a personal cheque.

And the teachers and nurses and any other people who are employed up there, civil servants or anyone else, they do the same thing, they have a bank account set up here in St. Johns or in Goose Bay, somewhere like that, or probably in Corner Brook. And if they need fifty dollars, they have a C.O.D. parcel coming in the nail from Simpsons, they cannot go down to the store and write a cheque for fifty dollars. So, Mr. Speaker, this government is using a deterent factor in providing services along the Labrador coast.

If this government, as those retail stores were originally set up for - that is why the Government of ewfoundland and Labrador, in years gone by, took over the operation of those stores, to provide services for the people concerned 2937

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1053 DW - 1 MR. G. WARREN: and now we are not doing it. And the reason, Mr. Speaker, we are not doing it - and this is what I cannot understand - all of sudden within the past five or six months it has become a policy, it has become a regulation, Mr. Speaker,.it has be- come a reoulation. MR. SPEAKER(Butt) : Five minutes. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). MR. G. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, if the man cannot listen for five more minutes it is just too bad because I am sure it must be hurting him knowing that he is part of this government, he is part of this government who are bringing in these kind of stupid regulations to the people that is so drastically affected. Mr. Speaker, I would say the hon. member should be ashamed of himself. Now, Mr. Speaker, if this government was concerned about the lives of those people the first thing I would venture to say that is where the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is gone now.

He felt so miserable, he felt so bad about itI had better go back and check on this and see what is going on because this cannot be in this day in age. This cannot be realistic in this day in age, Mr. Speaker. So I would hope the Minister of Finance will come back earlier with a decision saying, 'Look, we will make sure that those stores will carry enough money to accomodate people in there who have cheques and cannot cash them. It is not too big of a request to ask, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is roughly about , by latest report, about 225 caribou within an hour's ski-doo ride from Main.

Now that is a very valuable resource. That is a very valuable resource, Mr. Speaker. And if taken correctly and if we are in consultation with the people this resource could be a viable operation. However, I wish to cau- tion that the people concerned are not looking forward with 2938

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1053 OW 2 MR. G. WARREN: groups or companies just moving in and making a slaughter. They are not concerned that. It is a resource that they are depending on. And if there are any plans that I have heard as I have heard through the grapevines that there are plans afoot to have a commercial harvest in this area. Then I strongly suggest that every precaution, every precaution necessary will be taken. Because this is one of the remaining, remaining few resources that the people have left to them.

And surely goodness this government, if we are going to stop all cash flow into the communities surely goodness we are not going to cut off the flow of fresh supply of meat. So just be careful, be careful, Mr. Speaker, 2939

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1054 AH-1 MR.WARREN: I urge this government to act with every extreme precaution because already this government is cutting of the cash flow, this government is cutting of the cash flow into these communities. The Department of Social Services are issuing cheques every month which are rightfully deserved. p"ever , Mr. Speaker -the minister was not here earlier- -he people cannot cash these cheques because there is no money there. MR. HICKEY: Why? MR. WARREN: Why is there no money there? There is no money in the stores. That is why. MR. HICKEY: How come? MR.

WARREN: You had better ask your Premier. You had better ask the Premier. It all happened within the last fiv or six months. MR. HICKEY: Every store runs out of money occasionally. MR.WARREN: Every store - not for the last six months they do not. So I would say that the minister should check the facts,that the people cannot cash their cheques in the stores because the store managers have been requested by officials. MR.FLIGHT: He issues the cheques and then puts a stop-payment on them. That is what they do. MR.WARREN: Officials of the department, Mr.

Speaker, have been requested, the managers - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.WARREN: The managers in thosp qt,.ores have been instructed not to request too much cash. I would say the hon. Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) will remember that when Labrador Services was under his department if they requested $10,000 or $50,000 they got it. MR.HICKEY: - That is riqht. When I was around they got it. 2940

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1054 AH-2 MR.WARREN: That is right, Mr. Speaker, they got it when the minister was there. If they wanted $50,000 in the stores to operate the services they got it to operate the services. MR. HICKEY That might have been it. I might have been too generous. MR.WARREN: Well,if the hon. member is too generous,I am sure the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) is just on the other side of the fence altogether. Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to blame the member for Naskaupi (Mr.Goudie) but it is something internally wrong with the government saying,Look, we are not going to bring too much cash along the LabraLor Coast then I think, Mr. Speaker, we have to look at it very carefully. I believe my time has expired. Mr. Speaker, I am supporting this resolution and the potential resources are available and I hope that when this government decides to open up new avenues into resource development the one thing we should take in mind is consideration for the people. Thank you. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 294 1

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1055 SD 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HANCOCK: Oh, we are going to hear it now. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, you are going to hear it now but we are not going to hear to the people of Newfoundland, Let them suffer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. MARSHALL: We are going to talk, Mr. Speaker, about - MR. HANCOCK: I will have a few words for you this afternoon. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

MARSHALL: Okay, I will hear it when the hon. member speaks to end the debate and I wait in anxious anticipation, but in the meantime the hon. gentleman has twenty minutes at the end of the debate, in the meantime he can suffer and I am glad to say that the rest of Newfoundland is not suffering but I will probably suffer when I hear him speak. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have this motion put forth by the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock). And it reads as follows:

WHEREAS THE PROVINCE of Newfoundland and Labrador has the highest unemployment record in Canada'. That is a recital, it is near the truth The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, you could say that it has a high unemployment but he does not choose to say that the unemployment rate has come down by a very dramatic 4 per cent within the past couple of years nearing 5 per cent now as the Minister of Manpower and Labour (Mr. Dinn) has said.

He has left that out but I mean we still have the highest unemployment rate in Canada but it is going down as a result of the policies of the government. 'WHEREAS there are a number of areas in the Povince where the unemployment figures are far beyond the provincial average;' that is true. It will be true for a period of time yet to come. I suppose 292

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1055 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL; it is true in any of the prosperous provinces of Canada that there are certain areas where there is more unemployment than elsewhere. So we can agree with that. 'WHEREAS many areas of the Province depend on a single resource', which is the fishery in most cases. We can agree with that, we do not disagree with that. 'AND WEEREAS the resources already know and available to our Province could, if properly developed, provide full and permanent employment to everyone in the growing Newfoundland and Labrador labour force' , we agree with that.

We have great faith in the future of Newfoundland. We draw issue with the approach taken by the gentlemen there opposite and their way in which they would have the resources developed in this Province by in effect not asserting the rights of Newfoundlanders,but we can agree with that but we would not agree with the

interpretation they put on it. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED' , and this is the operative part of the resolution, 'that this House fully debate all aspects of resource development in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.' Now what government could be against that? What House of Assembly could be against that? Nobody could be against that. Why should you not at any time fully debate all aspects of resource development in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. DINN: What are we here for? MR. MARSHALL; Certainly nobody - as the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) said, 'What are we here for?', certainly.

So we can agree with that part of the resolution. The next part of the resolution BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the government target areas of high. unemployment with a view to producing a plan for the joint federal/provincial co-api ation aimed at improving the economy of those areas and to c sating long term jobs for 293

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1055 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL: unemployed residents of this Province' Nell, Mr. Speaker, we can agree with that at well, there is no problem with that. The only thing is, I suppose, that we could say as a result of our record that perhaps it should be * amended technically to say, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the government of the Province continue to identify target areas- because we have been doing it, we have been very conscious of it in the member for Naskaupi's area (Mr.

Goudie) particularly, in the Happy Valley area we have been very, very concerned with the unemployment area and we have been making moves, the acute unemployment problem, we have been making moves in that direction, we have been making moves in other areas. AN HON. MEMBER: Like what? MR. MARSHALL: And I suppose, Mr. Speaker, if we wish to we could say that we vote for the motion if it were stated, 'to continue to identify target areas' but we do not want to be small minded in these areas.

We can take it for granted that we can vote for a resolution like this that the government target areas for high unemployment to mean an endorsation of the fact that the government continue really to identify high areas of unemployment and target areas for developments as the resolution says. So, Mr. Speaker, to the surprise of the hon. member perhaps we can say that as far as the government is concerned I can see no reason why the government would not vote for this resolution that is really in effect a motherhood resolution. 29

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1056 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: But there are a few matters that I would like to draw to the attention of the House in supp- - orting the resolution to point out that there is definitely, I think,a difference in approach and a difference in the way • in which this side of the House would interpret the resolution in voting for it and that in which the side opposite would interpret it.

In our opinion, the major target area to be addressed by the governrnent,and has been addressed by the government, the major target area of high unemployment, although it has come down, is the entire area of Newfoundland.

Certainly, it is beneficial to address oneself to smaller areas of the Province where the employment is more - unemployment, that is, is more acute than in others and we will continue to do so but I do not think that the hon. member, when he brought in his motion and the debate that has emanated from the other side would indicate that they are thinking in the broad aspect that this government would think in terms of, that is,the area of all Newfoundland itself. I would suggest that their

interpretation of the application of this resolution would be like the shot of a 22 gun, a 22 calibre gun, for instance, as opposed to the shot of a shotgun. As far as we are concerned, we would take the aspect of the shot of a shotgun, the hon. members are taking the aspects of individual areas. We believe in covering the whole area. Now, in connection with the whole area and the development of the whole area, it is inconceivable to me how the hon. members there opposite could introduce a • resolution like this. Now, bear in mind when I say this, in all of my talk, I am saying that we are going to vote for this resolution. We are going to endorse this resolution but I do 2945

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1056 EL - 2 MR. MARSHALL: want to point out certain aspects of it that the hon. members seem to skirt away from time to time and at all times and seemingly do not address themselves to those issues and in doing so really are not discharging, I submit, their duties to Newfoundlanders as Newfoundlanders.

When you consider the major tar- get area of unemployment in this Province, I do not see how one could fail to get up in this debate and address oneself to the policy of this government with respect to the owner- ship and control of our offshore resources as opposed to the policy of hon. gentlemen there opposite of siding with their colleagues in Ottawa in attempting to deny us owner- ship and control of our offshore resources. How could, Mr. Speaker, the Opp- osition not support? And this continues to come up in this session again and again and again,and.

I think the Opposition is allowed from time to time to get away from it. Now, they are elected members and they represent people in this Prov- ince and their constituents ,and indeed all of the Province, have a right to know where the Opposition stands with respect to ownership and control of offshore resources. And it is beyond my ken and it is beyond my comprehension as to how the hon. gentlemen there opposite can, as Newfoundlanders, take the position that they have, which is against this govern- ment's policy that this government has the right and control to offshore resources because that is their position.

Surely, Mr. Speaker, this is the greatest target area of high unemployment. The hon. gentle- man wishes us to address ourselves to various target areas for employment and I can think of no area where the employ- ment, the rate of unemployment would be reduced more than to the area of control of our offshore resources. Now, let me demonstrate 296

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1057 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: this. I think the best illustration, because for some reason or other, I do not know what it is, Newfoundlanders love things that come from away. If a New- foundlander says it or somebody close to them in their community says it they do not seem to believe it, but they love the CFAers, they love the statements from away. Before Confederation,if it came from jolly old Britian they believed it, they believed it as if it was the Holy Writ. Now if it comes from Toronto or Ontario they now believe it. So, Mr.

Speaker, to give you some of the examples of what is going to happen if we do not get ownership and control of the offshore, I would like to refer to an article,which I can table,in the Financial Post, the issue of March 7th., 1981, and this deals, the headline is 'Hibernia will bring energy war to a head, it is by Christopher Waddell, who is a well known writer, contributor to the Financial Post, and to other journalistic endeavours in Canada. And this particular

article deals with the then perceived plan of Mobil to bring the issue of the offshore ownership in Newfoundland to a head before the federal courts of this Province. And it goes on to say, and I invite Your Honour to look at it not from the point of view of the main purpose then of the newsworthy item of the

article itself with respect to the possible court act, but to look at it, Mr. Speaker, from the point of view of the effect of us not getting ownership and control of our offshore resources. It says, 'The company,' being Mobil, has made no secret of its desire to use four 50,000- barrels-a day floating production units to gather Hibernias estimated 1.85 billion barrels of crude. The units would be brought on stream in sequence applying experience gained with the first platform to the other units. Oil would be fed to a 297

pril 8, 1981 Tape No. 1057 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: floating storage facility (on site) with tankers taking it to whatever Canadian refinery needs crude." Who said that, Mr. Speaker? 'Says Ed Barroll, Vice- President of exploration and production for Mobil in Calgary. Such a scheme," the

article went on, Mr. Speaker, "runs counter to Newfoundland's development plans.' Now these are the plans of this government, "It," this government, 'favours a fixed production platform anchored to the ocean floor with crude being shipped the 3,300 kilometers from the field to Newfoundland by pipline.

"The construction of a pipeline would also allow for recovery of an estimated two trillion cubic feet of natural gas in Hibernia." Then it goes on to discuss the statements which are made as this government's desire to realize fully the full extent of the resource, to realize the gas as well as the oil derived from the Hibernia field, which I will not go into. It is here for hon. members to see. As I say,I know most hon. members will be familiar with the article, but I shall table it if hon. members wish to see it.

But it goes on to say, "From the Province's point of view,a pipeline could guarantee that the great bulk of Hibernia's crude would be landed in the Province." Now, Mr. Speaker, do you know what that means for the ifibernia crude to be landed in this Province? Why do we want ownership and control? Hibernia crude landed in this Province can Your Honour visualize what an enormous amount of jobs would be gained by crude being landed in this Province rather than somewhere else?

So 'Landed in this Province and forwarded to the Petrccanada-owned Come By Chance refinery, rather than being processed in other Eastern Canadian refineries." it goes on to say what Ottawa officials would do. "Ottawa's officials see the pipeline as a political but not a practical solution. Energy,Mines and Resources bureaucrats 298

April 8, 1981 Tape 1058 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: 'have no preferred production systems or means of getting the oil to shore. It seems highly likely,' the

article goes on to say, 'that the federal government will back the floating platform proposal and off-loading of oil on to tankers simply because of technical difficulties involved in building a pipeline.' Now, Mr. Speaker, do we think that for one moment, if there were any technical difficulties in building a pipeline. say, into Toronto or into Montreal, do th people of Newfoundland really believe that that would be an impediment to building a pipeline? I do not know fully myself, Mr.

Speaker, as to the - fully appreciate the technicalities of building a pipeline with respect to floating platforms, but this is an edict from the Central Canada Financial Post which indicates the policy of the federal government. For that reason, I cannot see the hon. gentlemen there opposite leading a Resolution like this relating to the employment in this Province, without dealing with this gut issue that is before us with respect to ownership and control of our offshore resources. There is no doubt from this particular

article alone, Mr. Speaker, that hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost if the hon. gentlemen there opposite get their way. Because this is the philosophy of the hon. gentlemen, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentlemen who bring into this House a Resolution of this nature to maximize employment, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, would have it so that they would support their federal counter- parts in Ottawa who would deprive Newfoundland of its natural rights. And that is what we mean when we talk about ownership and control. We mean other things as well. In case the hon. gentlemen do not understand, we mean control of the rate of development. It goes on in that

article to say that Ottawa wants to extract it right away 299

April 8, 1981 Tape 1058 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: to get self-sufficiency. This, Mr. Speaker, may obviously not be in the interests of the people of Newfoundland at the present time. Now, it is beyond our wildest comprehension with the unemploy- ruent rate at the stage it is to talk about a superheated economy, but a superheated economy, Mr. Speaker, can be twice as disastrous as one that is not producing, which we presently have but which is improving under this present administration. That is another reason why we want contool.

I do not know how it is that the hon. gentlemen there opposite can be so narrow in their perspectives that they can bring up a Resolution like this and not address themselves to the gut issues, as I say, that are before the people of this Province. And I do not know how to get it before the businessmen and the hon. gentlemen there opposite and other interest groups in this Province to show that the clue to our unemployment in this Province to a large, large degree rests upon our getting our vital and basic right for owner- ship and control.

I think if this session has been marked by any characteristic, it has been singularly marked by the complete lack of the position by the gentlemen there opposite in getting uiD and 'ng whether or not they agree with this government - because I believe that this government has enunciated in its policy of ownership and control of resources the interests of the people of Newfoundland - or whether they agree with other parties, whether they take a contrary position, which I also believe - it is not always because somebody disagrees with the government that they are not in the interests of the people of this Province, but how in the name of all that is holy can the hon. gentlemen there opposite take an opposite position to this and still be acting in the interests of the people of Newfoundland?

April 8, 1981 Tape 1058 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr. Speaker, that is one point. In supporting this Resolution, I invite the hon. gentlemen to address themselves to these issues at last. We have been waiting for them to address themselves to this issue and we leave no stone unturned to invite them so to do. Are they going, Mr. Speaker, to go against the interests of the people of this Province or are they going to realize deep down inside them, as Newfoundlanders, that necessary for the future employment of this Province, very necessary, is this issue of ownership and control of offshore resources. 2951

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1059 DW - 1 MR. N. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman nods his head. I hope when he gets up and speaks in the debate he will nod his head in words as well and indicate that he is prepared to break with the federal Liberals and his counterparts who have not made this - MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) MR. N. MARSHALL: Nell, okay he points out (inaudible) but come out and say it again. Come up and say it again and put his money where his mouth his and move his seat one step to the left to get away from the policies that have been enunciated by the others.

You cannot run with the - what is it? - run with the hound - what is it the - MR. WOODROW: Run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. MR. N. MARSHALL: Run with the hare and hunt with the hounds,and that is what the hon. gentleman is trying to do. If he agrees and he wants to stand up as a Newfoundlander he can move his seat just a little bit to the left, as other people have done in the past. If he really agrees, he would be doing a service to his district and the people of Newfound- land. There are other points, Mr. Speaker, that I have not got time to go into because time does not per- mit.

But there are other issues, Mr. Speaker, that come up in this House affecting employment in this Province that I think the Opposition have to address themselves to. One of which, I think, which will ring out as a real shame for the Opposition is their attitude towards the decision that was rendered by the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland last week. A decision that has been hailed by most people from coast to coast as a very intelligient decision, well-written, expressing the true nature of the 2952

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1059 DW - 2 MR. N. MARSHALL: Canadian Confederation. And instead, Mr. Speaker, it is either being greeted by members on the opposite side with no comment whatsoever or by means of scorn.

Now do they not realize that this judgement has indicated that the proposals brought forth by the federal government would, in effect, if implemented reduce Newfoundland and other provinces as well - Nova Soctia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Alberta - merely to geographical units and that Newfoundland will cease to continue to exist, if this is implernented,as an economic and social entity, which it is, and political entity that it is? Now may be some people might think it should not be a political entity but one goes with the other. And this is in effect what this judgement says, Mr. Speaker.

It says that if the proposals that the hon. gentleman's colleagues in Ottawa,particolarly those who are sitting on the government side from Newfound- landr if these proposals are implemented, Newfoundland will cease to exist as a Province as well as other provinces. Now I would like to know their views on that and for them to contemplate in this resolution as to what this is going to do with respect to the unemploy- ment rate. I would like them also, Mr.

Speaker, to address themselves to the fact that this particular resolution also connotes that in order to get the employment, target areas for employment there is no more acute target area for unemploy- ment in this Province that we are concerned about than the Happy Valley/Goose Bay area of the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) and we are moving in that direction. But is there any project which could uplift that district, uplift Happy Valley/Goose Bay, uplift Labrador than -the development of the Lower Churchill? And what is preventing the development of the Lower Churchill, Mr.

Speaker? that is preventing it is the failure of he 2953

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1059 DW - 3 MR. N. MARSHALL: federal governnent to give us our basic rights for the transmission of hydro power in the sane way as oil and gas is allowed to be transmitted. Now the hon. gentlemen there opposite can fiddle and faddle, they can get up and they can use weasel words and they can say what they like but when they speak about unemployment in this Province let them get up, Mr. Speaker, and address themselves to those issues.

Let them get up and address themselves to our ownership and control of our offshore instead of the words that they been using and been allowed to sleaze out of it as they have. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, p1ease The hon. member's time has expired. MR. N. MARSHALL: I just say finally, Mr. Speaker - and I understood I had leave - SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. N. MARSHALL: Oh, the hon. gentlemen said I had leave, that is fine. So let them address themselves to that let them address themselves, Mr.

Speaker, to such global issues as the effect of that judgement by the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of our Province of which all Newfoundlanders, I feel, can be justly proud of. And ask them to address them- selves to that in terms of unemployment in this Province. Let them also address themselves to the free transmission of electrical power. Mr. Speaker, let them also look to other parties in Canada. There is presently an election going on in the 2954

April 8, 1981, Tape 1060, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: Province of Quebec, and the member for Grand Hank (Nr. Thorns) - I do not know why he asked it - asked what the government's position was with respect to that election.

As I pointed out at the time, a government would have no position with respect to an election in another Province, but I did point out to the hon. member that the position of the Parti Quebecois, the Liberals and the Union Nationale on items basic to the Province of Quebec, and linguistic rights, and things that were necessary to the kernel of life for the Quebecois in the Province of Quebec were similar with all parties. Now, why, Mr. Speaker, must it be in this Province where our problems are not linguistic but economic?

Why is it that we should be impeded, this government should be impeded by there not being unanimity in all parties in this Province on the basic issues before us. And let them now, Mr. Speaker, get up, use weasle words and say, 'We are for this. Newfoundland gets control of the offshore until such time as it does not receive equalization payments', because what they are saying is, 'We will allow you to have your resource until such time as you can pay your own welfare'. Mr.

Speaker, we do not want to pay our own welfare, we want to contribute to the rest of Canada and pay to those other places that have been unfortunate enough, like we in the future, to contribute. We have as much right to our human dignity as the Provinces of Ontario or Alberta or any other province in Canada. So that is why, Mr. Speaker, we are going to support this resolution, but I want it to be known, and known in crystal clear language, that when we support it we see it with a much broader and different meaning than the hon. gentlemen there opposite. We do not cast a 2955

April 8, 1981, Tape 1060, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: narrow View on this, as I said when I first spoke, we do not look at like, you know, you are shooting a 22 bullet, we look at like you are shooting a shotgun and you are taking in all of Newfoundland and all Newfoundlanders. Because, Mr. Speaker, if this is not addressed, and if this business, particularly of ownership and control of our resources is not addressed, and you gt away from the silliness and the foolishness that is brought up from time to time about being anti-Confederate and what have you- you can be a good Canadian, Mr.

Speaker, and still stand up for your Province. And this is what - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: No. But this is what this government is doing, it is standing up for this Province. And what we do, Mr. Speaker, we invite the hon. gentlemen there opposite to stand up with us in statesnienlike fashion and endorse one, two, three, four, and five, the policies which this government has enunciated for the betterment of the people of this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER(Butt) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LtJSH: Mr.

Speaker, this is a \\ / magnanimous resolution, one that points out a severe problem in this Province, our number one problem, one that the government does not like to recognize as the number one problem, namely unemployment,and then goes on to suggest, Mr. Speaker, some solutions or procedure for a solution. And, Mr. Speaker, I suppose that is what is important. It is one thing to recognize the problem; number two is to do something about it, and that 2956

April 8, 1981, Tape 1060, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: is what I want to talk about in the main, but, first of all, I do want to deal with some of the matters raised by the hon. the member for St. John's East(Mr. Marshall), Mr. Speaker, who seems, every time he gets up to speak, to only want to talk about offshore oil as if that were the panacea for this Province's problems, as if that were the cure—all for the economic woes and the financial problems that beset this Province.

I refer the hon. member, and all hon. members really, to the study that was done by the Economic Council of Canada, From Dependency to Self- Reliance that this government likes to dismiss. Now, Mr. Speaker, I realize that everything in this is now the ideal, it is not exact1y what we should be doing, but, Mr. Speaker, there are some good suggestions in this particular document. And may I remind hon. members what it says about offshore oil and gas. It 2957

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1061 AH-1 MR.LUSH: says, 'Our analysis brings us to the conclusion that the discovery of commercially viable oil and gas deposits off the shores of Newfoundland and Labrador, will have an important impact on the provincial economy but it will not be a panacea for all of the Province's ills. The effect on unemployment is not expected to be large and most of the jobs will be in one shot construction activities. It seems unhikely,thereforethat oil and gas will be the answer to Newfoundland's problems of high unemployment and low productivity." Now, Mr.

Speaker, there it is and I only use that so that we can keep our feet on the ground. This constant, Mr. Speaker , these constant prouncements of how the offshore oil and gas is going to solve this Province's problems, Mr. Speaker, area lot of nonsense. And where we stand on it:we have said so so many times that we support the government on trying to gain control and ownership of our offshore oil and gas but we do not think that is the be all and end all. We would support the provincial government. Indeed this party is on record as having been the first party to enunciate that particular policy so , Mr.

Speaker, I do not know why the members opposite get up and constantly refer to and ask members on this side to stand and give their position. Mr. Speaker, I have given the position. We support the transmission of hydro power across Quebec,naturally. We support that. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hears MR.LtJSH: What do the hon. members think, that there is something magic about that side that makes them greater Newfoundlanders than on this side?

Do hon. members over there think that there is something in the air that causes them to breathe a different type of oxygen or something to make them better Newfoundlanders and to have more concern? What inanities, Mr. Speaker, completely stupid. And if we cannot get in this hon. House and debate on a 2958

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1061 AH-2 MR.LUSH: different level from that, Mr. Speaker, than to question our patriotism and to question our concern is absolutely ridiculous - SOME EON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR.LUSH: - and I am tired of doing it. Now, Mr. Speaker, we support the transmission of power across Quebec. Sure we do. But, Mr. Speaker, the hon. members over there,they do not know what they support. One minute they are talking about the transmission and another minute they are talking about the free transmission. They do not know what they are talking about. Mr. Speaker, we support the government.

The hon.member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) would like to have us out shouting loud and clear to all the people of Newfoundland and Canada about the Supreme Court's decision. But, Mr. Speaker, that is not necessary. The government members take care of that. They take care of that. If we disagreed with anything we would have said it. We have said nothing. We left that to the government. These were the people that were dealing with it and if we wanted to say anything differently we would have said so. Mr. Speaker, everything that the hon. member raised here today was nothing but a red herring, nothing , Mr.

Speaker, but a red herring and again using the constitution, these constitutional matters as an excuse for doing nothing. All of these years we have come through and we have not known the problem but all of a sudden, as I have said before, the constitution Is the culprit. That is what has caused us all the problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, what does the federal member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) think about all of this constitutional kerfuffle? What does he think of it? What does he say about it? Now, Mr. Speaker, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Crosbie says, "Liberals obsessive on patriation." He says, Mr. Speaker 2959

April 8,1981 Tape No. 1061 AH-3 MR. LUSH: -and he is speaking at a certain Tory rally somewhere up along,and he says, The Liberal government is constipated by the constitution and there is no movement." Well, Mr. Speaker, I would say the same thing equally applies to the government of this Province. It is the government of this Province that is causing the no movement. Now, Mr. Speaker, they are part of the problem. So that is the federal member for St. Johns West (Mr.

Crosbie), that is his view of the constitution, that the Liberal government is too preoccupied with it and as a result that we are not taking care of the other problems, the other economic problems of Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker, 2960

April 8, 1981 Tape No.1062 EL - 1 MR. LUSH: I would suggest that the same thing applies, the same is equally said about the government - of this Province. He goes on to say,'Even if the Canadian Constitution was the best in the world, it will not change - the 12.2 increase of the cost of living or the 83 cent Can- adian dollar. Mr. Speaker, that tells you, that tells us all what the hon. federal member for St.John's rest (J.Crosibe) thinks of the constitution.

That tells you what he thinks of the constitution and no doubt if he thinks that the Federal Government is preoccupied with the constitution and he thinks that the Federal Government is obsessed with the constitution and if he thinks the Liberal Government, the Fed- eral Liberal Government in Canada is constipated by this constitution, he must obviously feel the same thing about the Provincial Government of this Province. But so much for that. Mr.

Speaker, I want to talk about things related to the unemployment problem of this Province that have nothing to do with the constitutionBecause this government would give us the feeling that if the constitution is not straightened out in the next ten years, de are just going to drift along there is going to be no action,trying to bluff the people of Newfoundland that there is nothing else can be done, We have to wait until we gain control and ownership of the offshore oil and gas'. And Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated the view taken by the Economic Council of Canada which was commissioned to look into the economic problems of this Province, and I have indicated what they have said about the offshore oil and gas. Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly we want that to be a part. we want that to be a part of the solution. It 'ill certainly help us immensely. It will put 2961

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1062 EL - 2 MR. LUSH: extra dollars into the economy and though it will not solve all of the unemployment pro- blems in this Province, it will give us, I suppose, seven or eight thousand jobs. And again, that is what the Economic Council says. It scifies that with the biggest oil development in the wor'd, we can only expect to get 7,000 or 8,000 jobs. Mr. Speaker, that is certainly a good addition to the economy but that is not here yet.

Does that mean the government is going to sit idly by and let human beings just deteriorate intellectually, physically while we are waiting to gain some constitutional rights, Mr. Speaker?If this drags on for snother year, another year and a half, another two yeafs, there is nothing that can be done. Mr. Speaker, I submit that that is not the case. Mr. Speaker, our unemployment problem is a severs one. It is a severs one. Now, the Min- ister of Labour and Manpower (J.

Dinn) jumps up every now and again and is quite delighted when we get a monthly fluctuation, when we get a drop from one month to the other, which he realizes is not worth a row of beans. What we look at, Mr. Speaker, are the yearly averages.ut that is fine, we welcome any fluctuations. It is always good news if there are more people employed this month than there were the prev- ious month. Why all Newfoundlanders welcome that. But let us face the facts, Mr. Speaker, our unemployment is still outrageously high. It is still disgracefully high. The yearly average for 1980 was 13.5 percent. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is scandalous, it is scandalous. Still just about double the national average, that is what it is, Mr. Speaker. We can play around with the figures how we like, we can dilly- dally with the figures in any manner we like,that is still just about double the national average andMr. Speaker, that 2962

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1062 EL - 3 MR. LUSH: is sad, it is disgracefull. And what progress are we making? From 1978 until 1980, and I use that period of time, because the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J. Dinn) in a recent statement used the figuresof course to his own convenience, when he said that there a 2963

April 8, 1981 Tape 1063 SC - 1 MR. LUSH: 5 per cent improvement in the rate of employment in this Province or a drop of S per cent in the unemployment rate ever since the time that Premier Peckford assumed office. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is not exactly true, because we can use statistics any way we like, and what the minister did was to use monthly statistics.

He took the month when the Premier assumed office and took the seasona31 ' adjusted figure with that, which again is a poor figure for calculating any permanent direction in the economy, he took the seasonally adjusted figure in the month that the Premier assumed office and took the last one in February - I assume that is what he did - and found out there was a S per cent increase. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is not an accurate picture.

The accurate picture is this, that in 1978, our unemployment rate averaged out for the year - and that is the only figure with any meaning - the figure averaged out for the year 1978 was 16.4 per cent unemployed, and in 1980 it was 13.5 per cent, a drop, Mr. Speaker, and we welcome that, but it is not a drop of 5 per cent in the unemployed, it is a drop of a little less than 3 per cent. It is 2.9 per cent. So that will indicate, Mr. Speaker, how the government now are trying to play around with these figures and give a different impression of what the unemployment rate of this Province is. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I take no pride, and neither should anybody on that side, that our unemployment rate today is 13.5 per cent - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. LUSH: - 13.5 per cent, just about double the national average, and which would, Mr. Speaker, be totally unacceptable in any other province in Canada. 2964

April 8, 1981 Tape 1063 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: It is an outrageously, ridiculously high level of unemployment, play with the figures how you will. Mr.

Speaker, again I have asked the minister the question and I still got no response,I have asked the minister the question, in view of the fact that he jumps up and down with great glee and delight every time there is a fluctuation in the statistics from month to month, how does he correlate that with the government's own document which states that over the next five years our unemployment rate is going to stay at about 14 per cent? a document that was just completed this year in which the government say the unemployment rate is going to remain at 14 per cent over the next five years, and yet the minister jumps up and down when you get a little fluctuation from month to month.

Mr. Speaker, I would be ashamed to talk about our unemployment figures as long as they stay at about 13.5 per cent. Mr. Speaker, I can also go into the projections for the future, but I am not going to do that. But let me assure hon. members they do not look good. I can go into the figures, the projections done by APEC, which were just done recently, and demonstrate what the unemployment figures for this Province will be. And over the next ten years they project, even with owner- ship and control of offshore oil, there are going to be outrageously high unemployment figures - unemployment in this Province. So, Mr.

Speaker, so much for that, of holding out to the people of Newfoundland that great panacea or that great cure-all, Mr. Speaker, of owning and controlling our offshore oil. Our problems are going to be solved, Mr. Speaker, through a co-ordinated effort of the development of all of our resources, not just offshore oil. 2965

April 8, 1981 Tape 1063 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: And by all of our resources, Mr. Speaker, I refer to our human resources and our physical resources, our natural resources, the resources, Mr. Speaker, in the ocean, on the ground, and our human resources. I believe that we are falling down at this moment on the training of human resources, training people for the skills that are going to be needed tomorrow. Mr. Speaker, our offshore oil is a good indication of that. We have known this for some time, Mr. Speaker, that there was oil and gas off our shores.

Did we then try to put programmes into the trade schools, the vocational schools, to try to train our Newfoundlanders so that they could qualify for those jobs? No, Mr. Speaker, the government were caught with their pants down, they were caught ill- prepared, unprepared, and what did we have to do? We had to bring in a local preference policy to protect our Newfoundlanders and give them on the job training. ME

April 8, 1981, Tape 1064, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: That is not the way to develop, that is not the way to develop a country. And I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, because I want to get on to another area, just let say one of the greatest weaknesses in this Province today with respect to our training of our human resources is that the programmes that we are offered in our trade schools today are not linked to the demands of the labour market, they are not linked. We have people going into courses for which there is no demand. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is not to say that a person should not be allowed to go into any course the person would like, but at least there should be some activity of co-oridnating the programmes that are offered at our trade schools with the labour demands and our young people should be informed of this so that they, by choice, can go into courses for which there is hope at the end of them that they are goig to get a job-, not like the many hundreds of young people who are doing courses now at our trades schools and no hope for employment. I want to talk about two of our natural resources, Mr.

Speaker, that are most underdeveloped and I want to talk. about agriculture which is a large industry in the district of Terra Nova. There was no mention of them in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, no mention of them, yet, not too long ago the government announced a policy of self-sufficiency in several areas;in agriculture. root crops, in other areas, poultry. Well, Mr. Speaker, we have reached it with poultry, chicken, eggs and the like, and in turnip, I believe, as a root crop, but that is it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish, the Minister of Agriculture(Mr. Goudie) were here.

I would like to ask. the minister, for example, what is the status of the hog industry in this Province today. I would like to know what 2967

April 8, 1981, Tape 1064, Page 2 - apb MR. LUSH: the status of it is. I would like to know what the government is doing. I understand that the industry is on the brink of collapsing, and there are suggestions on the minister's desk from the swine producers of this Province. It has been there for some time and there has been no action taken on it, and the hog industry is going to go down the drain if this minister does not stand up and do something. Mr.

Speaker, we talk about the constitutional debate and here we have a traditional resource that can provide much more employment, and again the Economic Council of Canada agrees with. me on this point, that we can provide much more employment, we can become much more self-sufficient in many areas of agriculture. But, Mr. Speaker, this hog industry is the one that concerns me because I understand that we produce one of the best products anywhere in the world. But, Mr.

Speaker, we are in trouble and the government is not giving it the kind of support that it needs when the Ministe.r of Agriculture has on his desk suggestions and requests from the hog people in this Province, from the Swine Producers Association,of what. can be done to solve this problem and there is no action being taken. This is not a constitutional matter, Mr. Speaker. We cannot slough that off on Ottawa. We cannot slough that problem off on Ottawa. I would like for the Minister of Agriculture(Mr. Goudie), and all the other attachments that are to that, to deal with that problem.

I would like to get into • forestry, Mr. Speaker, but I realize I do not have the tine. But, again, a tremendously underdeveloped industry, underdeveloped natural resource and I refer specifically - and I would like to talk about forest management and all of these, but just let me finish up, one day I will get 2968

April 8, 1981, Tape 1064, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: into it, the point I want to get into is the mess that the small sawmill operations are in in this Province. That is what I want to get unto but, Mr. Speaker, I see - MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. member's time has expired unless there is leave. Is there leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: What do you want to say? How much time do you need? Adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed to give the hon. member leave? MR. DINN: How long do you want? What do you want to say? MR. LUSH: That is okay, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? MR.

LUSH: That is all right, I will say it another day. I will say it another day. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, yes, the. 'hon. member spoke for twenty minutes. He is going to save, what he had to say for another day because he did not say anything the last twenty minutes he S 2969

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1065 SD - 1 MR. DINN: used here in the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. DINN: We are speaking to a very important resolution here today put forward by the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock). And I am going to wait until the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes stands up to speak to this resolution in closing the debate. I want to hear what the hon. member has to say about the fishery, about offshore oil and gas, about forestry and about all the rest of it, about jobs that he wants because that is what this is all about.

This resolution, developing our resources is all about trying to make this Province a 'have Province. And that is basically what we are are all about. And we have our proposals out, we have our policies out and we are doing things about it. Now, contrary to what the hon. labour critic over there has said, we are making progress and it may not be as fast as we would like it but we are certainly making progress.

I would like to point out to the hon. gentleman who proposed the motion, some of the problems that we do have, some of the difficult I have with respect to that resolution and the hon. member's different positions that he has taken here in the House with respect to the fisher , as an example. I outlined here in a Ministerial Statement last week that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) was on TV against our position, basically, on the Northern cod and he stated it quite clearly that he would go over and negotiate and possibly negotiate more of it away to have peace between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. I outlined to the hon. gentleman at that time that each 1,000 metric tons of fish is eighteen jobs, that this year 11,000 metric tons of fish that went to Nova Scotian plants was 200 jobs at $12,000 a year which is about $2.4 million and is significant, 2970

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1065 SD - 2 • MR. DINN: would have an impact on most of our rural districts in this Province, anywhere there is a fish plant or fishermen. Also,last year the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. LeBlanc) gave 25,000 metric tons of fish to foreigners and just to relate that to the same kind of formula, you are talking about 450 jobs there and $5.5 million. And these are very significant things, they are little things there different policies and different people are just gnawing away at Newfoundland and taking jobs from us that we should have.

And the hon. member may not realize it,but this will become more important in the future.As the hon. member may or may not know, we expect that the fish stock will double in the next five years and that means that if that fish resource is allowed to go overseas or allowed to go to Nova Scotia, then we simply will not have the jobs here and it will affect the hon. member for St. Mary s - The Capes (Mr. Hancock), it will affect Trepassey and it will affect Arnolds Cove and it will affect all of these plants, so that we have to be speaking 2971

April 8, 1981 Tape Mo. 1066 EL - 1 MR. DINN: here in this House with one voice because it is too important to be political. We have to speak here with one voice on all of these resource issues. Every 500 jobs, every 1,000 jobs, every 2,000 jobs - 2,000 jobs is one percentage point the unemployment rate goes down. And it is very important. It is not something that we should treat frivolously, it is something where we should make sure of what we are talking about.

The hon. member says and his resolution states; "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the govern- ment target areas of high unemoloyment with a view to promoting a plan for joint Federal/Provincial co-operation'. Well, I will give the hon. member an example. I have not told this to anyone outside of government before. It has never been told. It is the story of Canada Works. It is the story of Winter Works.

It is the story that the hon. member should know about co-operation and co-ordination and discussion and trying to get the Federal Government thinking in the proper areas, areas of high unemployment, areas where we should be talking about resource based resource develop- ment. About a year and a half ago, I spoke to the Federal Minister of Employment and Immigration. At that time it was Ron Atkey. I said, 'Mr. Atkey' - we had a discussion - I said, 'Mr. Atkey, look, this Canada Works thing is getting out of hand'. I said, 'Let us see if we can do a different programme.

If you do not like what we propose, throw it out. But let us have a look at it. Let us see if we can get together and put some of these dollars to good use. And the hon. member should know that there is about $20 2972

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1066 EL - 2 MR. DINN: million involved on almost an annual yearly basis. And I said,'what I will do, for you, Mr. Minister, is I will get the resource deparnts to work,and give me three months, and put their proposals together for where the Canada Works dollars should go, put their proposals in and Driorize them to me.

Then we would get together in a joint meeting and priorize them from a Provincial perspective and we will give you enough projects in resource based areas, where they would be of some use to the people of this Province, so that you do not have to accept our proposals on our priorities, you can go to your federal members, if you wishy you can go to your tag groups, if youwish, choose those projects, put them in whatever areas you want, but put them in realistic resource based development areas and in areas of high unemployment.' Well, this is what we did: We went to the resource ministers here.

They spent several months put- ing their proposals together. I think we put together 174 proposals, The total amount of money requ±Lred to finish it off- and some of them were not good projects, we threw them out, we were getting down to the bottom of the barrel, but we took 2973

April 8, 1981 Tape 1067 PR - 1 MR. DINN: the good proposals-I think there was something of the order of seventy-four or seventy-five proposal-q oriorized that would take up $36 million or $46 million-md we sent them to the federal ministersIn my letter said, and I can table this if the hon. gentleman would like to see it, 'These are what we would like to see done, your slipwavs, and hauJ-outs, your forestry sawlog areas, all the resource based areas, Tourism was involved, the whole works, agriculture was involved. And we put them to Mr. Atkey at the time and we said, 'Mr.

Atkey do not just take them because we say they are great, give yourself time, investigate them, pick out those projects, You know, if you want to spread your dollars around equally by federal constituency, have your federal members look at them and tick them off, if they like them or if they do not like them, but choose those, centre your proposals around these projects.

You are talking about $46 million, if there are going to be twenty allocated to Newfoundland next year, then take twenty and let them choose them whichever way they want, it will be something that we can be proud of when the programme is over." And he said, Okay, thank you very much, you have done a good service here and I will see what I can do." Well,we had an election in February, out go the Tories and in come the Liberals. So immediately Mr.

Axworthy was appointed to the federal Cabinet in Employment and Immigration, and he was not installed in his seat, I do not know if he arrived in his office,but his phone ringing and it was me, and I followed it up with a letter - and I can table that for the hon. gentleman any time he requests it- but I followed it up with a letter and I said, "Mr. Axworthy1 I have been discussing with the previous minister a proposal 2974

April 8, 1981 Tape 1067 PK - 2 MR. DINN: for Canada Works that would be of use to this Province that nobody could disagree with. You know, it is something that you would be proud of if you implemented it." And he said, "Well,I will consider it.. And', he said, "1 will talk to the federal members".. And he did, and he came back to me about a month later and he said, "It is not a bad proposal, and we night be able to fit some of these projects in, but',' he says, "We are going to do it the old way." And as a result "a are back doing the cemetery fences.

And I have nothing against painting the cemetery fences or putting in new cemetery fences, but some of these cemeteries got two fences. You know, I mean it is getting to the point where it is a little bit ridiculous. So that is where my three months of work went with co-operation, and co-ordination and discussion and attempting to get something out of the $20 million or so that the federal government spends down here in Canada Works. So I want the hon. member to address himself to his stand on the Northern cod stock and where it should go, whether it should go to Nova Scotia?

How many metric tons he would trade off? Or whether it should go overseas so that Romeo would have,or the federal government would have a little more leeway with the manufactured goods that go from Central Canada whether you can trade off 25,000 metric tons this year or next year. These are very important items. The hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) got up - you know, I have heard different proponents of different things here in this Province. We had Jay Parker who said, 'We can only afford to support about 250,000 people here in Newfoundland, so what we should 2975

April 8, 1981 Tape 1067 PK - 3 MR. DINN: do is ship out the other 250,000. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. 01MM: Well,we were going at about 10,000 a year in the 1960s, and if we had listened to Jay Parker we would have 250,000 in this Province and I suppose, we would not have a big unemployment problem. Wellwe reject that as a proposal. Andof coursewe had Parzival Copes of this world. And today, of coursewe had the hon. member, the Labour critic for the Opposition side, the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) get up and give his proposal as to how he would handle the unemployment problem in this Province.

The unemployment problem in this Province will not be handled by any one magic formula. It will not be handled by offshore oil and gas. It will not be handled by the Northern cod stock. It will not be handled by the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) over here who has worked diligently over the past year or so and gave us 1,800 jobs. It will not be handled by that. But the fact of the matter is, what we have to do here in Newfoundland is claw, scream, yell, negotiate for every single job that we can get. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

DINN: Now offshore oil and gas has been on the go in this Province for sixteen to twenty years, and nothing, 2976

April 8, 1981 Tape 1068 EC - 1 MR. DINN: really, was done. I mean, I looked at the records and I got the records. If the hon. gentleman wants information just come over to my office any morning and I will give him the record of employment offshore when we had no regulations in place or no management regime in place or no anything. And we had up to ten rigs out there in the 1960s and no jobs - none.

Right now, in February - and I give the hon. member this for information purposes - in February we got 617 jobs, offshore on three rigs and seismic vessels and supply vessels and onshore related to offshore because companies are now forced to deal here. That is why they are here, because they are forced to deal here by regulation. So we have 617 jobs in the offshore and we have to go after every single job that we can possibly get. Last year, because the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. LeBlanc) thought it was expedient, we lost 25,000 metric tons to the foreigners in the Northern cod.

And that is 450 jobs that we lost last year that we should not have lost, that should not have been negotiated away. We lost this year 200 jobs, man-years. Now, I am not talking about just for that period of time when it happened. It is not eighteen jobs for 1,000 pounds, it is eighteen man—years. It is $12,000 per job. Okay? So we lost 11,000 metric tons of fish to the Nova Scotian plants, and that is what it means, Sir. And we have to go after every job and we have to fight for them. It is very important. So in the offshore it is 617 at the end of February; it will be more when we get more rigs in the Summer.

It will not be as many if the national energy policy stays the way it is. We would have a lot more if we did not have the new national energy policy because we 2977

April 8, 1981 Tape 1068 EC - 2 MR. DINN: would have twelve rigs instead of six. But we have to go after every one of those jobs - • 617 in the offshore. In Forestry, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) has now a management regime in place whereby the three mills will be protected, despite what the Economic Council of Canada says, will be protected if we follow the management regime that is in place and being put in place.

The 1,800 jobs that he related to in the hon.House a week or two ago and yesterday were 1,500 in silviculture and there were 300 in the ones that he outlined just a day or so ago, or yesterday, with respect to reclamation of spruce budworm etc. And in the Bay d'Espoir, high unemployment areas - if the hon. member wants to talk about high unemployment - Bay dEspoir, Roddickton, Main Brook and the Baie Verte Peninsula, high unemployment areas. And that is what we have to do, Mr.

Speaker, we have to make sure here in this House, inside and outside this House, that we fight for every single job that we can get our hands on for Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. DINN: It does not bother me that much that the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower in Nova Scotia gets a little bit uptight with me. I had a meeting with the Minister of Labour in Nova Scotia about a week or so ago and we talked about regulations in the offshore.

The Minister of Labour in Nova Scotia is going around with the regulations for offshore in his back pocket - has not brought them into the House, has not passed any bill, but he goes around with them in his back pocket and when a company comes in that wants to drill offshore, he goes along and he starts pointing at the regulations and 2978

April 8, 1981 Tape 1068 EC - 3 MR. DINN: says, You had better do this or we will bring in the regulations.' Well, Mr. Speaker, we prefer to do it up front. And I told the Minister of Labour over there that if he had any courage - I told him face to face, I mean, I do not go back door - if he had any courage he would stand up for the people of Nova Scotia, who have high unemployment areas,and proclaim his regulations so that they would get the jobs offshore. They had, 2979

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1069 DW - 1 MR. C. IDINN: I think,the last time I checked Nova Scotia offshore jobs,thev had thirty-two jobs on two rigs, thirty-two jobs on two rigs which was completely dis- graceful! And the rest of the people out there were not Canadians, were not Newfoundlanders! They were from the Philippines or they were from Norway or they were from Spain and we are here with a high unemployment rate and we have to give jobs, for investigating and trying to produce a resource, to Spaniards and to Philippinos and to Norwegians when we have a problem here in the country ourselves.

It is time we start to recognize the problem and do something about it. Now, the hon. member suggested in his motion that we do something about it. Well, I say to the hon. gentleman that that resolution and fifty cents will get him on a metrobus. What I want to hear from the hon. member is where does he stand with respect to the jobs in the Northern cod? Where does he stand with respect to transmission? They have always agreed with transmission of power across Quebec. They have always agreed with that.

But do we have to sell it to Quebec for nothing first or should we be pushing the federal government to give us our rights? There is no problem with bringing oil from Alberta, there is no problem with bringing gas from Alberta. We have the pipelines, no problem there. Quebec needs it, they got it. Alberta did not have to sell it to them. So we will pay for the pipeline, we will put it in and we will give it to Quebec because they need the gas, no problem there Alberta was not forced! We were forced to sell it to Quebec or do nothing. Well, Mr.

Speaker, as hon. members may or may not know this government will develop that resource for the people of this Province and we will not be bought off We will not bebought off! And the hon. member - not that the ME

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1069 DW - 2 MR. J. DINN: Liberal Party agrees that we should transmit our power across Quebec, that we should transmit our own power across Quebec and that we should get our rightful payment for that power, for that energy, for that export. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member - all I want to hear about him,and I will support his resolution, is where he -tands on the Northern cod because that is important not only to me and to everyone in Newfoundland but to the hon. members district it is important. I want to hear where he stands on the offshore.

Not that we agreebecause the Liberals have always agreed that we own the offshore but they did nothing for sixteen years. They just came over here from Norway and put down their hoe, found nothing and went home. And that is the way it has been for sixteen years. But we did something about it. And I want the hon. member to stand up and say whether he agrees or disagrees with what we have done because I think it is important. I want the hon. member to tell us where he stands because I want to know.

I want to know whether that resolution was thought out - it is a good resolution-whether the hon. member thought that out, whether he agrees with what we are doing because it is important. And if he does, then I will support his resolution. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Is the House ready for the question? MR. C. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the House is not hardly ready for the question. Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of things the hon. member opposite mentioned that I would want to allude to quickly.

He kept asking the hon. member where he stood on the Northern cod, where he stood on the Northern cod? 2981

April 8, 1981 Tape No. 1069 DW - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: Well, Mr. Speaker, one of the things about the Northern cod that has surfaced latelv-"here I stand is that I am ashamed, as a Newfoundlander,I am ashamed of my life, Mr. Speaker, when I hear the minister from Nova Scotia saying that the moods of our Fisheries Minister (Mr. Morgan) is controlled by the moon, by the tides - MR. MOORES; That is what he is saying. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, that is one of things that has surfaced in the Northarn cod that I am ashamed of.

You know, first our reputation goes from confrontation with Ottawa on the offshore, then it is confrontation with Mobil over the offshore and for a ''hile we could have lived with that because the people of the Province would have said, 'Oh, well, they are entitled to fight with Ottawa, they are en- titled to go on with these confrontation tactics'. But then all of a sudden the people says, My God, Nova Scotia as well', the province next door, Mr. Speaker, with which we have had the kind of relationships that we have had for the past 500 years. And here is WWA

April 8, 1981 Tape 1070 PK - 1 MR. FLIGHT: the Fisheries Minister for Nova Scotia getting up and making our Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Mbrgan) look like a fool, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. FLIGHT: And having to threaten reprisals - AN EON. MEMBER: Shame. MR. FLIGHT: - that the hon. members opposite know that if Nova Scotia if they decide to do it, 'orisals that they can indeed put into effect. Mr. Speaker, it is very significant remember that that minister was a Tory, a dyed-in-the-wool, right wing Conservative, a Tory. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. FLIGHT: A Tory and he had no choice, Mr.

Speaker, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame, shame. MR. FLIGHT: He listened and he listened and he listened to maw mouth, to the minister we have in this Province, for a year and he finally, at the risk - he had to break ranks. You know, Mr. Speaker, he had to break ranks with the Tories. MR. FLIGHT: They got together, Mr. Speaker, the Premier of Nova Scotia and the Premier of Newfoundland and five or six more Tory premiers and they decided to stonewall on the constitution- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. FLIGHT: - and Mr. Buchannan shored up the Premier of Newfoundland. But, Mr.

Speaker, it finally got to a point that the Minister of Fisheries for Nova Scotia and the Premier for Nova Scotia and the rest of the Cabinet said, Ne cannot have any more of that. We 2983

April 8, 1981 Tape 1070 PR - 2 MR. FLIGHT: just cannot stand any more of that kind of tripe coming from Newfoundland'. And, Mr. Speaker, we have this spectacle, we have the spectacle on provincial and national television of the Minister of Fisheries for Nova Scotia getting un anH telling Newfoundland and telling the world that it would appear that the moods of our Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) are controlled by the moon. He cannot find any other way to ration