Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 69 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-69

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA, 2:30 o'clock, Thursday. April 22nd, 196 5. Openin g Prayer by Madam Speaker MADAM SPEAKER: Prese nting Pe tition s Readin g and Recei ving Petitions 17 27 MR. CLERK: The pe titio n of Dr. Otto Arthur Olson and others, prayin g for the passing of

an Act to in corporate The Canadian Lutheran World Relief. MADAM SPEAKER: Prese nting Reports 1Jy Standin g and Special Committees Notic es of Motion Introduc tion of Bil ls MR. LAUREN T DESJARDINS (St. Bon irace) introduced Bill No. 105,

An Act to amen d The St. Bon iface Charter, 1953. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to attract your atte ntio n to the gallery where there are some 20 Grade 12 Commercial Class stude nts from the Dauphin Collegiat e and Technical Institute. They are under the di rection of their teachers, Mrs. Lodge and Miss MacDonne ll. These stude nts come from the constit ue ncy of the Honourable the At torney-General. There are also 12 members of the North Springfie ld 4H Club under the direc tion of thei r leaders Mrs. Strembicki and Mrs. Hnybida.

These members come from the con stitue ncy of the Honourable the Member for Springfield. There are some 19 members of the Clandeboye 4H Club under the direc ti on of their teac hers, Mrs. Foster, Mrs. McRae . Mrs. D. Aime and Mrs. R. Aime. These members come from the constit ue ncy of the Honourable the Member for Selkirk. On be half of all members of this Legis lative Assembly, I welcome you. Orders of the Day. HON.

GEOR GE JOHNSON (Min ist er ·of Education) (Gim li) : Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to reply to a question posed by the Leader of the Opposit ion yes terday, askin g the number of people on the staff at the Manitoba Institute of Tec hnology. There are 101 academic and trade staff at our Institute today. We are advertis in g steadil y and pretty well all the time because of new courses and expandin g enrollment as it increase s.

At the moment we are advertis in g for three new demonst rators for new co urses and expanded courses, but there is no lack of teac hing staff to handle the present courses. That's really the story. I thought, while I'm on my feet, I should draw the atte ntio n of the House to the annual se co ndary Etude nts' Scie nce Fair which has bee n he ld yes terday and today at the Polo Park Shop pin g Centre. It would be useful for members if they have an opportunit y to drop out and see this, with over three hundred and twenty or thirty in div idual project s.

This is consi dered the largest scien ce fair of this type in the British Empire. It is a practical demon stration of the sci e ntific matters which the childre n discuss and learn in school, and is commen ded very hig hly to the honourable membe rs. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Lea der of the Opposit ion) (Ste . Rose) : Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could ask a subsequen t question of the Min ister regardin g the Technical School. Is it not correct, the n, that in the Business Machines Course there has not bee n a teacher in the course for the past two months? MR.

JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, I spoke to the Superi ntende nt of the in stit ution agai n at noon to ask him if this was the case. He said no, he has no actual -- no courses are be in g he ld up for lack of staff; that he just was advertising at the moment for three demonstrators for an ew course and an expandin g course. I'll take the question as posed now as further notice but my impression was this was not the eas e. MR. MORRIS A.

GRAY (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I think perhaps it would be _advisab le and helpful to the people if the powers that be report on the sit uation in con nection with the flood daily, whether they have anyt hing to report or not. but they are all confusedw i�h the re- ports on the radio. _ MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Broke nhead) : Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to address a question to the Min is ter of Min es and Resources. �'m sorry that I have n't giv en him notice but I receiv ed the in quiry myself only a few min ut�s ago.

I would ask the Min ist er if he has bee n made aware of an abnormal height of water in the marshes - the Netley. St. Peter, Libau marshes at the mouth of the Red River - and if he is aware of that has he also bee n made aware that this has impeded the normal muskrat trappin g operations and has

17 28 April 22nd, 196 5 (MR. SCHREYER co nt'd) .. ... .. he be en requeste d, or has the Department been reque sted to extend the muskrat trappin g season by three days to a week? HON. STE RLING LYON, Q.

C. , (Ministe r of Min es and Natural Resource s) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I have no personal knowledge of this matter although I am advis ed by my offic e that this request was made to the office, and the person inv olved was concerned about retrie v in g his traps after the regular expiry of the season; and as I understand it arrangements were made through the local conservation officer for him to retrie ve traps. That's my only know ledge of that sit uation at the present time. MR.

SCHREYER : Madam Speaker , a subsequent question, and I put it only be cause the Min iste r has referre d to some one in the sin gular - he said an in dividual. I would ask the Mini ste r if he is aware that apparently there are some 25 to 30 trappers in volved and I would ask him to take as notic e the question as to whether or not a three day to seven day extens ion might be made on the muskrat trappin g season be caus e of the abnormal fact ors resultin g from the high level of the Red River. MR. LYON: I'll take that as notic e, Madam Speaker . MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask a question. or a request of the First Min ister. Would it be possible to have the Orders of the Day posted in the gallery? I've had at least two reque sts from people who come here to listen to speci fic matters that are to come up, and if this could be posted I thi nk it would be of some help to pe ople who come to the buil d ing. HON. DUFF ROB LIN (P remier) (Wolseley) : We'll give some consideration to that sug gestion, Madam Speaker. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Eme rson): Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the Honourable Min iste r of Mine s and Natural Res ources.

We have a change in regu latio ns and I ·understand -- well I know that the Act hasn't be en proclaimed yet but some of the people are wondering whether it is permissible for them right now to go arid dig young coyo tes and foxes . They're afraid that they will be prosecuted if they do so. Now I'm not too cle ar on that. I know that some areas were dec lared as predator control areas . Could thes e people lawfully destroy the young of the coyote and foxes now, and what happens after the Act is proclaimed? MR.

LYON: Madam Speaker, the si tuation of course is that the old Predator Control Act is sti ll in effect - the new legis lation has not ye t been passed by the House - and I would suggest to my honourable fri end that if he has in quirie s of that sort emanati ng from his own constitu ency or from other areas , that he suggest to the persons co ncerne d that they contact either their local co nservation office r, the regio nal supervis or of the de partment, or dire ctly with the Di rector of the Wildlife Br anch, Mr. Jerry Malaher. MR. LEON ARD A.

BA RKMA N (Cari llon): Madam Speaker, befor e the Orders of the Day· are proceeded with I wonder if I could ask a question from the Minister of Agriculture and Con se rvation. I wonder if he could tell me when I could expect the Retu rn for my Order for Return, on well dri lling, on tenderin g a well dril ling. HON. GEO. HUTTON (Ministe r of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): No, I ca nnot. I can only say that the information is be in g co llected. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. George. MR. EL MAN GUTTORMSON (St.

Ge orge): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for St. Bo niface, that an Order of the House do is sue for a Return showing: Copy of the recently si gned ARDA agreement be tween the Fe de ral Gove rnment and the Governmen t of Manito ba. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, there is no such agreement. MADAM SPEA KER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bil l No. 102. The Honourable the Mi niste r of Min es and Natural Resources. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I mig ht have permis sio n from the House to have this matter stand?

There's one matter that I want to get info rmation on before I close the debate. MADAM SPEA KER : The adjourned debate on the seco nd reading of Bill No. 90. The Honourable the Mem':ler for Se lkirk.

April 22nd, 1965 17 29 MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. , (Selkirk): Madam, when I adjourned the debate ye sterday on this bil l I did so for the purpos e of givin g it a closer perusal. I have done so, and I fin d that this bil l emb odie s two of the main princip les that I suggeste d in my remarks on a resolution which I in troduce d in to this House last August in land acquisition.

The two princip les that I suggeste d should be the underlyin g principl es in any such legis latio n, should be that the empha sis on acquisition of land by negotiation should be the primary emphasis, and seco ndly, that we should try to attain and achieve a uniformit y of practic e and proce dure in respect of land acqui si tion matters and particu larly in respect of fix ing compensation for that. I believe that Bill 10 8 does embody those two main princip les and I am very pleased to give it my support. MADAM SPEAKER : Are you ready for the que stio n? MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, be fore the matter come s to a vote, I'd like to say that I'm pleased to se e that this bil l is be fore us. I really thin k that it is ve ry late. The govern me nt has already purchased a great deal of land in Manitoba under a number of different formu las, with different practic es be ing applied, and I don't think there has be en satisfa ction either in sofar as the people from whom they have purchased, or inso far as the taxpaye rs, that ther e's be en satisfa ction that it has be en properly handled.

However, I suppose be tter .late than never, and we are now goin g to proceed , I presume, under the new Act with a be tter system. I am co ncerned, however, that the Act will not cove r the util itie s. I appreciate the pro bl em facin g the gover nme nt here. The util itie s are in dependent bodies so far as their opera tions, and to hav e them to submit to this formula mi ght be a little dif ficult.

On the other hand, it se ems to me that unless we can arrive at a standard formula for them as well, that we will not rea lly be cove ring the problem completely, because that is one area where there has be en a good deal of diff iculty in the past.

I'm sure the Min iste r is aware of the problems that arise - for example on eas ements for Hydro i,n partic ular - and the difficul tie s are obviously going to co ntinue because we will be expanding our s5'stem, we'll undoubtedly have to be putting in he avie r lines in the future, and there has be en here some real co ncern, in rural Manitoba in partic ular, as to the pr ocedures followed.

I think that the Hydro has attempted to correct some of its mist akes in this field, and I know a change of policy came about a ye ar ago where by inste ad of goin g on the old policy of an eas ement price, and then that was settled, that they were goin g to pay over the ye ars as well, but there are still diff icul tie s here, and unless we can brin g them in some way or other in to the whole operation under the one arrangement I think that it will not be fully satisfacto ry in sofar as the people of Manitoba are co ncerned.

One of the diff ic ultie s that co nstantly arises on particularly the Hydro type of expropriations -- I shall co ntinue after, Madam Speaker. His Honour the Lieutenan t-Governor havi ng entered the House and be ing seated on the Throne, MADAM SPEAKER addresse d His Honour in the following words: May it pleas e Your Honour, the Legis lati ve Assembly, at its present session, passed seve ral Bills, which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to which Bi lls I respectfully request Your Honour's Assent. MR. CLER K: No. 4 - ·

An Act to amend The Fire Departments Arbitration Act. No. 22 -

An Act to amend The Rivers and Streams Act. No. 28 -

An Act to amend The Univers ity Act. No. 30 -

An Act to amend The Dairy Act. No. 31 -

An Act to amend The Horned Cattle Purchases Act. No. 32 -

An Act to ame nd The Agricultural Socie tie s Act. No. 33 -

An Act to amend The Horticultural Society Act. No. 34 -

An Act to amend The Livestock and Livesto ck Products Act. No. 35 -

An Act to amend The Natural Products Marketin g Act. No. 37 -

An Act respectin g the Li ability of Guarantors of Debts . No. 39 -

An Act to amen d The Public Schools Act (1). No. 41 -

An Act to amend The Offic ial Time Act. No. 45 -

An Act to amend

An Act to in corporate The Convalescent Hospital of Winnipeg. No. 46 -

An Act to inc orporate Manito ba Museum of Man and Nature. No. 47 -

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act (2). No. 49 -

An Act respectin g the Safety of Emp loyees in their Emp loym ent. No. 50 -

An Act to amend The Insuranc e Corporations Tax Act.

1730 April 22nd , 1965 (MR. CLER K c::mt'd) ... .. . . No. 51 -

An Act to amend The Emp loyment Standards Act. No. 52 -

An Act respec ting The Horse Racing Commissi on. No. 55 -

An Act to ame nd

An Act to inco rporate "The Ice Club of GrBater Winnipe g." No. 56 -

An Act to amend The Departmen t of Agricul ture and Conservation Act. No. 59 -

An Act to ame nd

An Act to incorporate The Jewish Foundation of Manitoba. No. 62 -

An Act to amend The Agricul tural Credi t Act. No. 63 -

An Act to amend The Companies Act. No. 79 -

An Act to ame nd The School Attendance Act. No. 92 -

An Act to amen d The Workmen's Compensation Act. No. 94 -

An Act to amen d The Change of Name Act. No. 98 -

An Act to ame nd The Charities En dorsemen t Act. In Her Majesty 's name , His Honour the Lieute nant-Governor doth assen t to the se Bil ls. MADAM SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, as I was sayin g, I am concerned that we do not get covera ge here ins ofar as the util ities are co ncerned. I real ize that the Act does make provi sio n where by the re can be an in ves tigation, or at least an appraisal made and an approval given of the price that the utilities are going to pay for land.

However, as the Min ister no doubt is aware, in many cases the utilities do not purchase the land; they operate it on an ease ment ba sis. And I thin k there is some question in Manitoba now that some of the ea seme nts that have l)een given in the past are not fe lt to be fair by a number of the landowners. There's the obvio us difficu lty in the case of Hydro and Telephone, where you have -b ec ause of the na ture of the ir operations - a very long strip of land bein g taken; and while they are not making use of that. land as such, they do have to put installa tio ns, either poles or towers.

There's the problem of -- continu in g problems ins ofar as the landowner there is co ncerned, and I think that we might have a look at some possibil ities of review of easemen ts that have been· granted in the past, where there have been changin g circumstan ces . And this certainl y can occur be- e ause of ne w deve iopments in areas or change of land practic es, and so on.

So.I would suggest to the Min ister that he mig ht study this matter further and see if it would not be possible - keepin g in min d the indepe ndence of the commi ssio ns - neverthe less to brin g the m, ins ofar as that particu lar portion of their operation, under this particu lar Act. So Madam Speaker, I am goin g to support the Act. I thin k it is closin g the door on the stable long after the horses have gone , but, as I said, better late than neve r, and let us hope that this will correct the obvio us errors that have existed in the land-buying practices of this government. MR.

SCHREYER: ... ... . we support this legis lation in a general way. The co ncept of havin g land acquired for the Crown under the aegis of a sin gle department or authority seems to be a good one for the sake of unifo rmity and in order to avoid confusio n in land acquisition practices and so on. I thin k it must be said, however, that this legis lation is bitterl y late . Of course, for land acquisitio n in the future it may well be a good thing; but thousands of acres have been expropriated in ways that have been at varian ce one with the other, which is unfortu nate .

Now this bil l, the purpose of this bil l will be to brin g under the authority of one Minister the power to acquire land for the diffe rent departme nts and agenc ies of the gove rnmen t. This is fin e. But the powers of the Ex propriation Act, as such, are not rea lly changed in any basic or elemen tal way. I noti ce that throughout the bil l there' s reference to the Expropriation Act applyin g mutatis mutandis, and we fin d it on one page and then on the next page , and so on. Well this is another matter havin g to do with land acquisition that will have to be gone into at some time.

As the Honourable Memb er for Lake si de said the other day, we must look at the Expropriation Act also, and the sooner the bett er. I'm not sure whether the Min ister of Public ·works is particu larly anx"ous to have to have this sort of power ve sted upon him, but from what little I know of his depa rtment's expropriation procedures , their record is , if anythin g, better than that of the Department of Water ConsBrvation and the Department of Mi nes and Re source s. although I must poin t out that in at least two small inciden ts eve n the. Department of Public Works has vi olated the Expropriation Act.

Property that had not yet be en expropriated was en tered upon by road builde rs; excavation commenced. Seven and ten days later notices of expropriation were sent out. However, in general and on the whole, the Department of Pub lic Works seems to have the most expe rien ce over the long run in this sort of matte r, and I think it's probab l y a good thing that it's this departmen t and this Minister that is bein g given this authority . So Madam Speaker, it's really in committee , when we deal with the secti ons of the bil l, that we will have more specif ic commen t to make.

April 22nd, 1965 17 31 MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, just a few comments. I take it that if this bill is approved and read into law, that our first resource will be this commission, that this commisSion will be asked to act, and that the expropriation procedures will only follow in a case where nothing can be done by this commission. However, in a case where they do ex:... propriate, will the commission be called on to perform some work in evaluating property and so on?

Then also, in connection with the appeals, where you have expropriations and where you have appeals, will they still be made or will we be satisfied with whatever the commission recommends? HON. STEWART E. McLEAN Q. C., (Attorney-Gener al) (Dauphin): If there are no other speakers, Madam Speaker, I'd be glad -- just a word or two in closing the debate. I'm. taking the matters in reverse order with respect -- The question posed by the Honourable Member for Rhine land respecting expropriation.

If the acquisition cannot be completed without the ex propriation proceedings. then at that point - that is to say, at the point at which the expropria tion proceedings are lodged - the Appraisal Commission will not have any functions to perform, because their function will have been performed prior to the time that expropriation is under taken, and the members will have noted t�at there is a provision that any certification as to value which the commission has indicated would not be binding upon the owner of the land and he would Qe free to bring in evidence of value as he would see fit in order to substantiate his c !aim before the expropriation authority.

The Honourable the Member for Brokenhead is correct that nothing has changed insofar as the Expropriation Act is concerned, and in its present form it might under the regular cir cumstances be used. I think that I could share his regret, and the regret also of the Honour able the Member for Lakeside, that the Expropriation Act has not been revised.

We are an xious to do as good a job on it as possible and it would be o!,lr hope that when we bring in a new Expropriation Act that it will be a complete codification of all of our various expropriation pro visions in the province, and' of course it will - that new statute - if and when it becomes part of the law of the province, will be applicable under the provisions of this Act.

I think we all share the concern expressed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition respecting the utilities, and it is a difficult place here to find satisfactory ground but I would think that we would be more than happy to examine how this system works, and in particular how it is working out in relation to the important matter of easements, which are of perhaps more common concern to the Hydro and the Manitoba Telephone System.

We haven't any ex perience to go by at the moment but certainly assure him that we would be more than happy to see how the results are coming after the bill is in operation for a reasonable length of time, and undoubtedly there will be amendments proposed from time to time before this Legislature. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 114. The Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR.

SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I am trying to do some statistical or actuarial work, and I'm very poor at it, so I would ask for leave to have the matter stand one more time. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas) presented Bill No. 122,

An Act to amend The Elderly and Infirm Persons' Housing Act, for second reading. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. CARROLL: Madam Speaker, last year during the passage of The Elderly and In firm Persons • Housing Act, one of the sections by oversight contained the word "equalized assessment" rather than "rateable assessment". Rateable assessment is used in other sec tions of the Act, and this refers to the apportionment of taxes where there is more than one municipality involved in an Elderly or Infirm Persons' housing project.

This oversight has come to our attention and we are proposing to remedy it with this bill. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, would you be good enough to call the motion on Ways and Means. , MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister, and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Op position, and the proposed sub-amendment by the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. The Honourable the Meml:Jer for Assiniboia. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, the Member is absent but we have no objection if any one else wishes to speak. MADAM SPEAKER: ALy other member :wishing to speak? The Honourable Member for Burrows.

17 32 April 22nd, 1965 MR. MARK G. SMER CHANSKI (Burrows): Madam Speaker, it appears that the present administration is continuing to follow a pattern of .excess ive expenditures and, in general , ap pears to be justifying this action by saying to the taxpayers and people of M�nitoba that "you nev er had it so good. " Madam Speaker, with all the additional taxes in terms of the fue 1 tax , utilit y tax, it is very difficult for the average taxpayer in Manitoba today to feel that he never had it so good.

It seems to me, Madam Speaker, that thi s approach is not unlike the approach that was used by the Diefenbaker administration in Otta wa and we experienced in that admini st ration some of the most wasteful expenditures and that the Federal Government in those days was living beyond its means.

Yet we have another Liberal Government following in the foot st eps of the Diefenbaker administration, and we are now finding that the Federal Government is able to come within balancing its budget, and I recommend that same type of efficient ad ministration and an effort to increase the expenditure of the government based on the normal growth of the normal tax load that the people of Manitoba should carry. We have experienced what I would consider a very sad �:�ituation in the study and investi gation of the Interlake area under ARDA.

As I see it, there has been some $600, 000 spent to date with an undertaking of some 25 surveys and st udies, now out of which we have a completion of approximately four or five reports . I appreciate that most of the se funds are made available th rough the Federal Government, but then the expenditure of the se funds are administered by the Provincial Government.

We hear much in the way of very glowing reports and very en couraging results of what is going to take p[ace in the Interlake area, but Madam Speaker, for over the last three years this has been going on and cer tainly there will be very little good arrive in the Interlake area from st udying a series of 25 or 26 reports .

In 1964, and more specifically on April 4, 1963, just about two years ago, both the Minist er of Agricult ure and the Minister of Industry told us that the Interlake could produce indust ries of a secondary na ture - indust ries that could produce turkey and poultry processing operations, the production and packaging of honey products - and that there were a continuing number of inves tigat ions in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Mines and Natura l Resources and the University of Manitoba.

As a matter of fact, if my memory serves me correc tly Madam Speaker, the Minist er of Agriculture made the remark that the development of industry in the Interlake area was passed up before but this will stop. Now Madam Speaker, that' s two years ago and there has been no change; there has been no progress made in est ablishing and bringing in somet hing of a new industry into the Interlake area. What has been done in the last two years? Now, two years later, we are now talking about a new approach.

We are now talking that we are going to undertake additional new sur vey s and that the se surveys are des ignated to help local comunities to help th emselv es. And I recommend that remark to you, Madam Speaker, because it is a very intere sting phrase: "designed to help local communities to help th emselv es ." Now if the Roblin governmen t is not prepared to undertake this leadership, if the Ministers of this administ ration are not prepared to underta ke this type of responsi bility, I do not think that the people of the communities living in the Interlake area are in a position to do thi s themselve s.

In addition, Madam Speaker, we are told that we will now undertake a very intensive st udy by requesting confidential quest ionnaires from the various people living in the Interl ake area, and we are going to submit th ese to programming and put them thr ough computers; we are going to have analysts and geographers analyze this; and I think that when thi s has all been analyzed and processed, the fact will remain, Madam Speaker, and the conclusion that they will come to is: what should we do for the Inte rlake area?

I would strongly suggest that the geographers confine the mselves possibly to the field of geography and that the analysts correct ly confine th emselves to research and proper analysis, but that some place along the way we need proper leadership, and this leadership, Madam Speaker, we are lacking and we are lack ing it in a very material way as far as the ARDA project is conc erned in the Inter lake area, and I single out the Inter lake area because this has been pointed out as being a depressed area, as being the area into which the largest amount of ARDA funds in the Province of Manitoba has been channelled into, and it is unfortunate that no definite progress in a material way is being made in thi s area.

Why all this waste? With $600,000 expenditure, Madam Speaker, we could have est ablished with this money a national growth in terms of industry in this area of some, over $6 million. Why does it take so long to get off the ground and do something concre te? In my opinion, Madam Speaker, this government is not competent to direct such a program and it's not competent to industrialize the Interlake area; and I think it would be more just ified in tell ing

April 22nd, 1965 17 33 (MR, SMERCHANSKI cont'd) .... .... thi s to the people and stop fooling t[.�.em. Either you can do the job or else you can't do the job. --(Interje ctio n) -- Well if we're in orbit maybe we should add on a little rocket fuel and take off for the moon. There are various industries that can be developed in the Interlake area, and Madam Speaker, to develop the se you do not require additional stud y. What you require is build the buildings, put in the machinery, develop your markets , and get on with the job.

These pro jects, Madam Speaker, they require a proper approach to assess the possible development of such new plants and simply get the industria l development of thi s area underway. If the money is available the rest is very easy, because I can assure you, Madam Speaker, that the people in thi s area are very enterprising , very hard-working people, and they would be quite willing to assist if given the proper financial leadership.

Madam Speaker, the tax struct ure and the approach to the development of secondary in dustry and even primary industry in the Interlake area and in other rural areas of Manitoba is completely unrealis tic . Why do I say completely unrealistic? It is the inability of this govern ment to properly come to the conclusion from the surveys and reports to arrive at a proper launching of industria l development. It would appear to me that the re is some lack and some fuzzy thi nking and some fuzzy approaches to developing industry in the rural parts of Manitoba. It is not a secret. It is not a difficult problem.

It can be a complicated problem, b�t by the same token it can be solved. Madam Speaker, I again relate to the Interlake area because this was chosen to be a de pressed area, and yet thi s same government has not seen fit to declare or recognize thi s area as a depressed area.

We have other such areas in Canada that are far better off than the In terlake area, and the se areas have been classed as depressed areas; they have had concessions from the Federal Government in terms of a three -year free tax period; they have been given grants through the Municipal Development Assis tance that the Federal Government gives, in terms of sewer and water services; and we in this province have not seen fit to do th is . So one must come to the conclusion that we are enjoying some excellent conditions in thi s so called depressed area of the Interlake sect ion.

Here again we must lay thi s blame at the feet of the present government. I maintain that the Roblin Government is poorly organized and does appear to be totally confused in reference to this approach. Surely, Madam Speaker, areas in Ontario - far more industrialized than we are here in Manitoba - who have seen fit to declare cer tain areas as depresse d, were a lot better off than the average rural area in the Province of Manitoba, and the question remains, why haven't we done thi s?

Could this government tell me why it takes such a st rong st and in its approach to discourage the municipalities from making tax concessions to industry especial ly in rural Manitoba? I mentioned thi s matter two years ago, Madam Speaker, and there was great laughter and glee on the othe r side of thi s House. If any industry, if any area needs help, that is rural Manitoba. I don't think that there's a single elected member of his consti tuency that won't admit today, now, no matter what party he belongs to, that there is a need in some part of his cons tituency for a small industria l enterpri se.

In reference to the se tax concessions in terms of the municipalities, Madam Speaker, thi s is not a big request. This is a request that is within the means of the municipality because indirectly you es tablish an industry which is cont ributing to the tax struct ure , you are providing work for the lo cal people who will remain in that particula r town or area and who in turn will con tribute from the .standpoint of taxe s to the community .

So that in the final analysis, what ever tax concession might be given to industry is really a small percenta ge of the dollar bene fit that the community eventually is ab le to enjoy.

The other matter is, Madam Speaker, that if you run a telephone line from a rural point to Winnipeg, the cost of maintaining that line for business purposes is completely unrealistic and out of all proport ion of what might be consi dered as a fair charge for a business telephone, and when you get the se businesses loc ated outside Winnipeg they 're faced with a higher cost of telephone communic ation; they're faced with a higher cost of transporta tion costs, because you do have to have some raw materials going out and you will have to have the finished material coming back.

You may be located in a little village where you have to provide your own water facilities and you may have to provide your own sewage facilitie s. All the se are an added cost to es tablish business in rural Manitoba. So then the question arises, Madam Speaker, why not locate in the City of Winnipeg? Why go out into rural Manitoba? -- there is simply no advantage. Madam Speaker, we in Manitoba, because of our loc ation, can establish new industries in Manitoba and we can only compete in

1734 April 22nd, 1965 (MR. SMERCHANSKI cont'd) .. .. . .. the Canadian, American or on the foreign market, only if we have some decided advantage to compete in the se outs ide areas, and one of the main stumb ling blocks to industrial deve lopment in Manitoba is our high cost of electric power. Now, power in Ontario on the same basis of comparison is cheaper by some 20 percent . I know in the past when I have made this sta tement, it was said that this was just a sta tement that was being made.

But Ma:iam Spaaker, we have submitted our power bills to the Province of Ontario. and on the same basis, on the same consu mption, on the same kilowatt hours consumed, the bill is assessed to be any place from 15 to 25 percent lower in Ontario than it is in Manitoba, or an average of approximately 20 percent. --(Interjectio n) - - Add on another five now is cor rect. I didn't include that . The Roblin government, on the other hand, says that the figures released by the Bureau of Sta tistics concerning power costs are not factual and that the comparison is not based on similar facts.

I recommend to this House what can be better based on similar facts by sub mitting the same electrica l bill to be assessed by an adjoining province as the same bill has been assessed in the Province of Manitoba. We on the other hand talk about exporting power. How can we export power into areas where power is cheaper than our own power? That means that the industry that has been esta blished in Manitoba, the consumers of electrical power in Manitoba will have to indirectly sub sidize the advantages of exporting this power.

Wouldn't it be better to have cheaper power rates in the Province of Manitoba and attract industry into the province to consume the power within ouT .own boundaries ? There ismuch to be done in the field of metal smelting, in the production of special al loys, special tool ste els , in this province, which are simply fantastic users of electrica l power.

We can also go into the metalliferous field where we now have got electri cal methods of smelting the ores which come of iron, nickel, copper; and we could esta blish one of the finest, one of the outsta nding electrical melting alloys in the entir e North American conti nent. No way of carrying this out? Close to the Arctic Circle? In a similar manner through electri cal energy consu mption on the site.

I think I vis ited that site some four years ago, Madam Speaker, and I was tot ally fasci nated by a community of some 12, 000 people living completely off the production of special alloy steels that are sold throughout the entire world. Now we in Manitoba can do the same thing. If we on the Nelson River have got a large power development project , let's develop it.

Let's bring industry into the province; because if we wait we might wait too long; because we may be faced with other sources of power and be not in that pos ition, that favourable power de ve lopment pos ition, in years to come. 1 would like to review briefly that at one time when we were talking about the export of coal from our western provinces , there was a word of caution given to us by many people that it is better to conse rve our energy in this countr y rather than export the coal.

Well it wasn't G-:> long ago tha t coal went out of style, and to day many of these undeveloped coal fields are not being utili zed. Then we had oil replace the coal fields, and we were rathe r concerned about the running out of our oil supply . Today, heating fuel oil as it's known is almost at the point of being a drug on the market, because gas is rapidly displacing the use of oil in our everyday heating and industria l use of gas.

Madam Speaker, in the same way that coal went out of style, heating oil is going out of style and is being replaced by fuel gas, so will at omic energy dis place the advantages of gas and so will the tapping of submarinian energies of heat subsequent� ly replace .those of at omic energy, because this is progres s. I would like to feel that bygone enthusiasm, which was originally brought into the front so str ongly in reference to the development of new industries in Manitoba, be revived and be made a motto for this governmens and for this province.

Madam Speaker, a 5 percent fuel tax, a 5 percent tax on your telep hone bill, a small tax on your utility, a small tax on this item and that item, taken individually don't mean very much, but taken collect ively, and taken collective ly with the other direct and indirect consum er's tax, makes it a burden as far as indust ry is conc erned in the province, because if you have to establish an industry, Madam Speaker, it makes no differerwe if you borrow the mon9y from the bank or borrow it in the form of a bond or debenture issue from the people in this province, or for tha t matter if you borrow it from one of the borrowing agencies of the government, the fact of the matte r is that that money has to be paid back , and that money can only be paid out of profit and it is the respons ibility of the individual that starts this industry.

This is an obligat ion that he must fulfil. Th.9n you have the matter of additional taxes; you have the matter of the community to

April 22nd, 1965 1735 (MR. SMERCHANSKI cont'd) . .. .... . deal with . Then of course you have to go out and fight and develop your market, because a market you must have in order to have a properly func tioning industry. Then into that whole situation you are looked upon as being a very success ful individual because you have created a new industry; you have given employment to the people in the area. So you have to be very much community-minded.

You must contribute to all the community affairs - the church, various clubs - and all of th ese are a very necessa ry -- all perform a very necessa ry function in the community . But the fact remains, Madam Speaker, that somewhere, somehow, you have to have a spark plug, and somewhere you have to have the individual that is responsible in order to oversee and protect this so that it will function as a proper economic unit . And I say, Madam Speaker, that this industrial cl imatic background that is required in the Province of Manitoba is simply not there, and I say so, Madam Speaker, not because I think so.

I say so because if you examine the background of Ontario and Quebec and even British Columbia, and any other province, Madam Speaker you have to come to the unfort unate conclusion that the Province of Manitoba is one of the provinces that' s near the bottom, and thi s is probably why, Madam Speaker, our population growth in thi s province is not in keeping with the average population growth in the' other provinc es of Canada, and I think that this government owes the people of Manitoba a responsibility to cor rect, to correct that unfavorable balance, and the only way that you can correct that unfavor able balance is to examine the multiple taxations that are being imposed on an industrial en terprise in this province.

You take the cost of transporation, Madam Speaker - very vital to the existence of industry in the province. And all the se things -- you are just putting on a heavier load onto the industria l manufacturers and industry in this province bit by bit until you overload them and you will finally break its back. Madam Speaker,. I think that it is high time we in thi s province threw all the matter of taxes into a bag and then laid the m all out before us and analyzed them in terms of their use fulness.

Also analyse tho se taxes in terms of the advantage that we as a province are going to have by virtue of getting an increase in our revenue by the normal growth of an average, fair and equitable tax, because I think, Madam Speaker, most of us must agree that we have somewhat of a tax jungle in the Province of Manitoba, and as long as we continue to have the se high taxes, as long as we continue to take away the authority from our municipal bodies in rural Manitoba, the possibility of developing industry in rur al Manitoba is going to become a more difficult ta sk.

And I say this, Madam Speaker, again, from actual experience, because we just happen to be associated with an enterprise within the Province of Manitoba identically the same with one in Ontario and you could see the difference between day and night. It does cost us more to operate in Manitoba and yet this should not be so. I would like to see it the other way round, so that we would have every reason to say: "Come into Manitoba. You will make an additional dollar or one cent more, " and encour age the industrial growth of rural Manitoba. MR. SAUL CHEENIACK Q. C., (St.

John's): Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Member would permit a question. I'm wondering whether he is speaking on behalf of his party when he recommends that municipalities give cash conc essions to industry. MR. SMERCHANSKI: Madam Speaker, the matter of tax concessi ons in a municipality has to be taken on its own merit depending on the industr y coming in, the amount of employ ment that industry will give to the community, and the amount of tax contribution that this in dustry will contribute indirectly by the number it employs and the amount of raw material it will purchas e. MR.

SCHREYER: .. ...... one questi on if the memb<:lr would permit. Just at the conclud- ing st age of his speech the Honourable Member said that two ident ical industries in Ontario and Manitoba, that the cost of operation in Manitoba was somewhat higher . Would that be be cause of higher labor costs or because of higher other cost s such as energy or som ething? MB . SMERCHANSKI: I was referring primarily to the higher cost as far as the indirect cost of taxation is concerned. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR.

GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I believe the matter stands in the name of the Member for Ass iniboia, doesn't it? MADAM SPEAKER : Agreed to have it st and in the name of the Honourable the Member for Ass iniboia? MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, would you be kind enough to call the resolution dealing with legal aid.

1736 April 22nd, 1965 MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Attorney -General, and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Member for Brokenhe ad. The Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I adjourned the debate the other day in order to check the amendment that was proposed by the Honourable Mem'Jer for Brokenhead to the resolution before us at that time. I am in support of this resolution before us .

The matter has been de bated when we debated the estimates of the Attorney-Ge neral's department earlier in the ses sion, and we also note that a certa in amount was allocated for this very purpose as pointed out by the resolution to give legal aid, and I think the resolution is good and that we should take a look whether the provisions that we allocate and whether the provisions provided by the Law Societ y is adequate and whether this should not be extended.

I think there is room for improve ment and certa inly we as members of this House should satisfy ourselves that the matter is looked into and that we are doing the job that is being called for. I think many people are not aware of their rights when it comes to matters of law, and too often as a result of this people will suffer because of not having taken proper action in the first place. Probably after the matter has been looked into there might be further legislation develop as a result, and so I give my full support to the resolution as well as to the amendment . MR .

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, if I may just very briefly speak on the amendment which has been proposed by the Honourable the Member for Brokenhe ad. I would like to say that I am unable to support the amendment which he has proposed. The proposed amendment deals , in my opinion, with something which is extraneous to the resolution itself.

Indeed, although I do not make this argument, there might be some question of whether or not it was relevant to the main motion, but in any event, Madam Speaker, it is my opinion that the mat ters referred to in the proposed amendment, while perhaps important in themselv es , are not germane to the matter of the resolution, which is with regard to the provision of legal aid and advice to needy persons.

It will be noted that the proposed amendment deals rather with what one mignt generally term the administration of justice with respect to pre-trial procedure, probation officers and sentencing procedures; all of which, as I say, are naturally quite im porta nt matters in them selves, but not what is the main subject matter of the motion , namely, the means by which free legal aid may be provided to needy persons. And on that basis, Madam Speaker, I will have to oppose the amendment tha t has been proposed . MR.

GRAY: Madam Speaker, I understand that this motion -w hether it's worded one way or the other way I'm not interested - is for the purpose of defending and protecting an ac cused man who cannot afford the protection on his own; he cannot afford a lawyer; he cannot afford to get bail; he cannot afford to get anything, and he is almost convicted before the trial to sta y in jail until such time as his case is disposed of. What difference does it make? Words! I cannot underst and it . Supposing the wording is differently , is that your intention? That's good enough for me.

But why bicker about words in the amendment? Stick to your idea. Stick to your ideal. Stick to your intentions and never mind all this wording, whether it's one way or the other . The trouble is, you know too much grammar. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Spaaker, I think that I should add a few words to those that have just been spoken to my collea gue, the Member for Inkst er.

I cannot see the logic of the argument of the Attorney-Genera l in reference to the amendment proposed by my colleague from Brokenhe ad, because if one takes a look at the resolution as proposed by the Attorney-Genera l, one cannot consider the same without feeling that one of the objectives of the resolution is not only the question of free legal aid. but advice to needy persons as well. And I suggest to my honourable friend that it is on the question of advice that the motion, or amendment proposed by the Member for Brokenhe ad, has been based. Because if we look at Clause (

a) of the resolution proposed by the Honourable the Attorne y-Genera l, that this committee appointed inquire and report fo the House as to the extent and adequacy of the provision now made by the Law Society and the Government for furnishing legal aid- which is one thing - and advice to needy persons, this question. Madam Speaker, of the advice, certa inly enters into the ambit of the amendment tha:t's proposed by the Member for Brokenhead.

Because surely the Honou rable the Attorney General cannot dismiss from the general area of legal aid and advice, cannot dismiss the advisability of inquiring into pre-tria l procedures , the matter of fixing bail and the use of pro bation officers, and also, the adequacy of other pre-tria l and pre-sentencing procedures and provisi ons. I suggest, Madam Speaker, that they are inter-related with the question of free legal aid,

April 22nd, 1965 17 37 (MR. PAU LLEY cont'd) .. ..... because if a person is called before the Bar of Justice or is charged, surely the question of pre-sentenc ing procedures and provisions, if indeed the charges result in sentencing , they are an important relationship so far as advice is concerned. And certainl y the suggestion made in the ame ndment as to the adequacy of other pre-trial pro visions and procedures, they're all correla ted with the very proposition that the Honourable the Attorney-General lays before us in the main reso lution.

I say to my honourable friend, is it not part and parcel of the same matter, that the question of advice given to people who may be called before the Bar, so far as how they stand on a pre-tria l basis? I suggest that it is. I suggest that many people who are summonsed should be in a position, on receipt of the sum mons - in many cases at least - to the provision of all advice that' s available, and we suggest that at the present time this advice is not adequately given .

It might be -- it might be that if the committee that the Honourable the Att orney-General is going to refer this matter to would be well-qualified and well able to take into consideration these other matters as well, so that those people - and the resol ution refers to needy people - will have the advantage of being fully informed.

And it could well be, I suggest, Madam Speaker, that if the se people were fully informed as to what happens as far as pre-tria l is con cerned, pre- sentences basis, it might obviate in many cases the necessi ty of direct free legal aid, It might be that thr ough full information, or more information as to their circums tances as to the law itself, that they may be able to be cared for in a more proper and a better method. So I suggest to my honourable friend that this is an important part of the administ ration of jus tice - pre�trial as well as the trial itself.

And I ask my friend if he would not recons ider the st and that he has now taken. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. PAULLEY: Yeas and nays, please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members . The question before the House, the proposed motion in amendm<:lnt by the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows : YEAS: Messrs.

Barkman, Campbell, Cherniack, Froese, Gray, Guttormson, Har:ris, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Paul ley, Schreyer, Shoemaker, Smerchan ski, Tanchak, Vielfaure and Wright. NAYS: Messrs. Alexander, Baizley, Beard, Bilton, Carroll , Cowan, Groves, Hamilton, Harrison, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McDonald, McGregor, McKellar, Mc Lean, Martin, Mills, Moeller, Roblin, Seaborn, Smellie, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickla nd, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs . Morrison. MR. CLERK: Yeas , 19; Nays 32 . MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion lost.

The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Attorney-Gene ral . MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBL IN: Madam Speaker, may we proceed, please, with the debate on the Consti tution? MADAM SPEA KER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resol ution of the Honourable the Attorney-General. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition � MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, there would appear to be in Canada at this time fairly general agreement that we should proceed with the patriation of the Constitution.

Having said that, however, the area of agreement does not seem to continue quite as readily, and it is ob vious that on two basic matters there is, in spite of the agreements that appear to have been reached last September, possibly a growing disagreement as to the matters of the amendment of the Constit ution once it is patriated and the delegation of powers to prov incial legislatures .

Conscious of the problems involved in this very matter, the Liberal Party of Manitoba set up a committee of people, who I believe are particula rly able because of their past service to the problem, because of their knowledge of the affair, to provide useful recommendations, not only to our own Party but also to this House. I might say that some members of that com mittee were two previous Premiers of this province; my colleague, the Honourable the Mem ber for Lakeside, and the Honourable Mr. Garson, who not only served in this House, but served as well as Minist er of Justice of Canada.

In addition to this there were .a number of oth ers, lawyers as well as laymen, who had particular interests in this field. On looking over the whole recommendations that had come out from the Federal Govern ment, which had at least had tentative agreement at the meeting in Charlottetown , it was our

17 38 April 22nd, 1965 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ... ..... feeling that the proposals should have further investi gation; that while in the main they would probably be acceptable, that there were at least some very important points that should be cons idered further. It is obvious, as well, that this feeling was echoed by many others across Canada. A number of const itutiona l experts were at the same time saying that the proposals should bear further scr utiny .

It seemed to us that first of all the amendment possibilities , or the amendment proposals, once the cons titution was patri ated, should be looked at once again.

While it is obvious, from the sta ndpoint of the pro tecti on of provincial rights, once the Consti tution is back in our hands that there must be some clear-cut and fairly rigid regulations insofar as to further amendments so that everyone who is concerned would be protected, it is also clear that if you make the amendments too rigid, that should an error ever be made then quite obviously it is that much more difficult to correct the error in the future . Going on from there to the concept of the delegation of powers, is probably where we felt the main investi gation should be continued.

We are believers in the federal sys tem with a st rong centra l government. We do not believe that you can have a nationa l government with out nationa l governing, arid this means that in a number of specific fields the delegation of powers recommended by the draft report would appear to us to go beyond the wise course of Canada at this time. Referring to

Section 94 (a), it sets out quite cle arly that there are four categories in which the Legislatures have the right to proceed. There is unfortunately the over -all sec tion,

Section 3, that proceeds to say that "notwithsta nding anything in this or any other Act, the Legislature of a province may make laws in the province in relation to any mat ter coming within the legisl ative jurisdict ion of the Parliament of Canada. " In ot her words, it seems to us that the res idual powers here have moved from the hands of the Federal Govern ment into the hands of the Provinc ial Governmen ts. It is true that this is st ated as being st rictly insofar as that particular problem is concer ned, but can we consider the development of a great nation if we are going to have individual provinces make laws and regulations in their own areas in the type of fields that

Section 3 could allow? Because it would appear to us that, eliminating the four specifics, this would st ill leave the fields, as for example, tariffs, treaties, pos tal and milita ry services, money . banking, legal tender, and these matters, in the hands of the provinces insofar as the ir own jurisdiCtion is coiwerned. We cannot see how this could help but lead to a "Balkanization " of our country, rather than a sound development of a federated state.

We believe strong ly in provincial rights in tho se particular fields that are ours, but we believe as well that in the fields of national intere st then there must be a national decision, and while it may not suit us perfectly in all instances, that in the intere sts of the whole this should be followed. It would appear to us then that

Section 94 (

a) of the draft Act should be rewritt en , making it very clear that the regulation of trade and commerce, the pos tal service, the militia, milita ry and naval service and defence, currency and coinage, banking, incorporation of banks and the issue of paper money, weights and measures, bills of exchange and promissory notes, legal tender, bankruptcy and insolvency, immigration, nat uralization and aliens, the cr iminal law, treaty making and extra-territoria l powers, in ter-provinc ial and internationa l tariffs, indirect taxation, should remain clearly in the federal field.

It seems to us that permitting provinces, even if it is only within the ir own boundaries, to have the res idual powers in these particular fields, would not be in the inter est s, in the long run, of Canada. It is on this basis, Madam Speaker -- and possibly I should read the report which this commit tee presented - that is, not the whole of the report, but the concluding paragraph, which I think indicates clearly our point of view.

This is what it says: "No matter what legitim ate pres sures inexorably changing times may exert upon the struct ures of Canadian self-government, so long as Canada is to remain a national, albeit confederated ent ity , the efiective means of governing nationa lly must be neithe r plucked nor insinuated out of Parliament's hands. To assert that the draft Act does, or would remove tho se effective means, would require not only greater cons titutiona l knowledge and craft than is possessed by most Canadians, but perhaps also clairvoyance.

On the other hand there are many knowledgeable Canadians who cannot confidently assert that there is no danger to nationa l government in the draft Act provisions. No matter then how the principle is to be secured or clarified in the draft Act, it remains wit hout doubt that effective nationa l government demands the effective means of governing nationa lly . This is a princ iple of inesc apable concern to all Canadian irrespective of provincial domicile.

April 22nd, 1965 17 39 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) .... •. "The second matter of concern arises from the first. Surely nobody can pretend that the draft Act is perfect or that it so approaches perfection that it need not be further scruti nized. Some may say that the unanimity of agreement with the draft Act was. achieved at a magic moment in Canadian History which can never again be duplicated .' If this draft statute be enacted with flaws which closer, more knowledgeable scruti ny could have detec ted, the moment of its public manifestation will yet be regarded as more tragic than magic.

It is the refore recommended that the great debate concerning this draft Act be not limited to the various Legislative Chambers but that it be subjected to the closest and most detailed examina tion by the nation's most pre'-eminent cons titutional experts. Therefore, let the ·anonymous drafters and the proponents of this draft Act meet and debate in open forum with experts whose life's work is Canadian cons titutional law.

The formula cannot be effectively tested in the courts before it is enacted, but it can be searchingly tested by the penet rating intellects of profess ional and pre-eminent cons titutional experts. The overwhelming importance of the subject, the awesome significance to Canada of devising a precisely toote d instrument of con st itutional development demand a grand inquest of the best minds of the nati on 'in open forum upon thls proposed Consti tution of Canada Amendment Act before its enactm ent. Objectivity is of para.rilount concer n.

It would bog useless to conduct such inquiries and debates if the ex perts were hired to brief th ems elves on behalf of sectional , regional or provincial interests alone ." The recommendation went on to propose poss ibly a Dominion-Provinc ial Conference or Consti tutional Commiss ion on this particular subject. Madam Speaker, the se were t he recommendations of our committee. I pointed out that it was made up of people who had background in this field, who had knowledge in the area. We are not insistent that this be the only way in which the matter should be scrutinized.

We are · not insistent that it be a matter of a Commission. We are prepared to support the resoluti on presented to us by th� government. We believe that this matter is of too great importance, insofar as the future of our country, to leave it as it stands now. It does require further scru tiny.

While there may be some dangers in saying, "let us have a second look, " I think it is wiser for the future of our count ry to take the second look now, to accept the risk that the de bate may last somewhat longer, to accept the risk that we may not have the patr iation as early as we might have hoped, but in the expectation that when the final decision is taken that it Will be one that will last and underwhich our count ry can grow as a national st ate made up of strong provinces but under a st rong national government. MR. SCHR EYER : Midam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St.

John's ,t hat the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. Mc LEAN: ....••.• be good enough to call the adjourned debate in the name of the Honourable the Minister of Education, as it appears at the top of Page 5 in the Orders. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minist er of Educati on : The Honourable the Member for Lakeside. MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, I would ask if it would be allowed for this order to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? ...•.. Continued on next page.

17 40 April 22nd, 1965 MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, would you call the Committee of Supply ? Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sourc es, that Madam Speaker do now lea':'e the Ch air and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MADAM SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMI TTEE OF SUPPL Y MR .

CHAIRMAN: The motion before the commit tee, moved by the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party that Appropriation Number 1, Res olution Number 57, Item (a) ( 1) Salaries - that the Minist er's salary be reduced to $1. 00. Are you ready for the question? All in favour ? MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I am supporting the motion, of course; I c.an't help it. But at the same time, my worry is in case the motion is carried, then we will have to put the Minister on welfare, which will cost the state much more money. And of course, the good that will come out of it is that they will have a taste of means test.

That's as far as the general introductio.n of the Minister of Mines and Natural Res our.ces. I am sorry for the first time in a long time, I wasn't feeling well and I wasn't here at the meet ing when he has intr oduced his est imate s. But I do want to say this, that I was very very pleased with the exhibition he has given us in Room 200 the other night , explaining many of his projects. It was quite entertaining and educational. I wasn't here, at the, criticism that he may have . received -- I hope he did -- in connection with the introduction of the estimate s.

I shall, I will myself, too, contribute some thing under each item on the esti mate s. But for now, I'd like to call the Minist er's atte ntion to a problem which worries me - not me person ally, but my clientele , so to speak, my electors and my people whom I have served for over a half a century -- and I cannot find any item in the esti!nates where I could raise this. So with your kind permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to call his attent ion to one prob lem.

He has told us, told the House, about the wonderful plans Rnd work he is preparing to do and has done, to de yelop the parks, recreation grounds, in order to attract tourists - which is a very very fine thing, because tourism now is such a high int erest to all countr ies. There are many many countries now, in the last few years, that have their revenue and have the ir exis tence out of tour ists.

Never in the life - and I happen to know something about it - in the history of mankind, where so many people now are travelling from one place to the other, from one country to the other, from one hotel to the othe r, and spending. cons iderable money and some of the countries are existing on the revenue they get out of the tourist trade .

But at the same time, I have always worried not so much about who is going to visi t Egypt or Jordan or other coun tries, but what I was a little. bit worried about is whether the Manitobans are being looked after by the powers that be; because after all, charity begins at home. And while we a:r:e advertising to bring in tourists from all over, we don't do very much to attract tourists to visit Manitoba or to prov ide facilities for them to enjoy, under the ir own financial circumstance , a couple of days a year or a few weeks a year, in the Province of Manitoba while the sun is shining.

And ever ybody knows the time of summers are being curtailed from year to year, judging by the date and by the weather of today. I have no objection at all of the suggested improvement and all the tourist places in this province, and the recreations and the hotel s, and eve rything else they are providing for th em. But I think that one place that has been very very badly neglected and is being patronized by most of the people that cannot go to the classic places which the government is spending so much money to improve, and I'm not objecting to it.

I have in mind the old old Winnipeg Beach where the poor class of people cannot afford to go anywhere else . In the olden days they used to occupy trains, seve ral trains a day to go down for a couple of hours to Winnipeg Beach. Now they go by car or bus . On a Saturday or on a Sunday you'll find about 10, 000 people down there; you'll find many cars . They cannot afford, they ha ven't got the transporation means to go somewhere else, to all the other lakes, to Kenora or the other places. But this here has been neglected. I don't know the inside of it and I don't know the outside of it.

I understa nd that the re is a certain pri vate ente rprise in which the government believes very much in it, enabled them to purchase a certain part of the Winnipeg Beach where the amusements are and the parking space and business and so on. Apparently they have the right and the priv ilege to buy it and run it for years as a free enterp rise, in which the government believes very much in. I understand th ere are signs

April 22nd, 1965 17 41 (MR . GRAY cont'd) ..... put up there now that it will not be open, it's definitely closed. And if it is true that it is going to be closed, I don't think that the low wage earner, the masses, will have a place where to go and take the children, either for a swim or a little recreation on a Saturday, on a Sunday , or a weekday or on a holiday. My question is whether this has anything to do with the Province ? If it hasn't, why not?

If it has, what action are they going to take or plauning to take, and what facilities are they ready to prov ide for those who are going down there every Sunday or Saturday or holiday and cannot go anywhere else ? I think this is the only thing that I could not find, an item here, and I would like the Minister to tell us what the goverrunent intends to do, after building a beautiful road to Winnipeg Beach, where you could go down there in 45 minute s or less? And what are the people going to do now ? Are they going to expropriate ? Are they going to buy out?

Are the y going to tell the owners, "Go ahead and do it. " How will they help them ? If th ey're spending money on the other summer resorts, why not consider thi s here ? Mr. Chairman, th at's about all I have to say at this moment. And I do hope that the Min ister will give this question very very serious consideration and explain today if possible; if not, make some plans for the next month or two enabling the people to enjoy a little bit of a holiday during the summer months . MR . CHAIRMAN: .... motion of the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, is the Minister going to reply.

There have been a number of matters brought up. Is he not going to answer the specific questions that have been raised? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I certainly am going to reply.

I thought it might be in the interests of expediting the procedure of the committee if we could get the various general corn ments from all sides of the House and then I could attempt to answer them because I'm sure there will be some repitition among the various comments that are made; and then after that, if the re are any further questions I would attempt to answer those questions but I thought that would be - if th at met with the convenience of members opposite it might be a means of expe diting the debate .

All of these items that we are talking about right now of course, we can dis cuss under ,the various items as they come on the estimate s. MR. GRAY: The question that I raised doesn't come under any" item . I don't see it. So you might as well explain now and be done with it. -- (Inte rjection) -- Pardon ? MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear the Minister reply. We'v e been looking forward to his reply with considerable int erest. MR . CHAIRMAN : The motion before the committee is the motion of ... MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, we are waiting for the Minister to reply. MR.

LYON: When we get back to the general item of the salary. Be happy to -- looking forward to ... MR. M. N. HRYHORC ZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, it's hardly fair for - on the Minister not for the Minister but on the Minister for us to vote on a motion of that nature without hearing anything from the Minister in self defense . Surely he's got something to say about that motion. I think the motion is a serious one. It may not have been seriously moved, but it's a serious motion and we should have a reply to some of the questions that have been posed in regard to that motion. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, is my honourable friend seriously suggesting that anything that I will say will have any bearing on how he will vote on that motion ? MR. HRYHORCZU K: Mr. Chairman, seriously ... -- (Inte rjection) - MR LYON: I can have an open pocket if it passes. MR. CHAIRMAN: All tho se in favour of the motion of the New Democratic Party say aye. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, this motion is really a" serious motion. It's a motion of want of confidence in the Minister and that is the way the se motions are inoved.

There is no other means for a member who wishes to express non-c onfidence in a minister from doing so and surely the Minister is going tb make some reply. If he 's not before the voting then we can only assume that the Minister agrees with the criticism that has bee):! made. If tha t's his posi tion well tha t's fine, we know where we stand; but he appears to take it all as a joking matte r. It isn't. This is simply a want of confidence in the Ministe r. MR. CHAIRMAN put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. Now we are back to resolution No. 57, item 1 (a) (1) . MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, if there are no other general comments . that the members wish to make I will make some response to some of the comments that have been made thu s far.

17 42 April 22nd , 1965 (MR. LYON cont'

d) First of .all dealing with the remarks, I guess almost a week ago now, of the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains, there are one or two comments I would like to make about those, because he started in to compare revenues and expenditures of the depart ment for 1958 -59 and 1965-66. That is he attempted to make a comparison of the last set of expenditur es and revenues, approved by the House under the government of which he was a member and the es timates for the current year which are presently before us .

I say attempted, because the venture into the public accounts appears to have run aground somewhere in my honourable friend's computation. For one thing it seems to me that my honourable friend appears to have chosen some of his figures from 1958-59 and others apparently were chosen from 195 7-58. For another he has , and I'm sure no doubt inadvertently, compared tota l mineral revenues of 1958-59 to the oil revenue s for 1965-66 - and I' ll stand subject to correction - this is the inte r

interpretation that I got from his remarks . I should point out to him as well that the Parks Branch which was established last year was formerly included in the revenue and expenditure accounts of the Fore stry Branch and that would resu lt in some juxtaposition in the figures which he used when making his comparisons. I won't attempt, Mr.

Chairman, to correct all of the figures .laid before.us last Wednes day by the Member for Ethelbe rt Plains but instea d will try to clear the records, in an attempt to clear the records will present a correct comparison or what we believe to be a correct comparison of the '58- 59 revenues to the '65-66 revenue s. I limit my attention to four branches in which he was interested, that is the Mines Branch, the Game Branch which is now the Wild life Br anch, the Fisheries Branch and the Forestry Branch. In 1958 -59 the Mines Branch revenues totalled $1, 240, 000. 00.

In 1965-66 as you can see from the est imates we anticipate revenues totalling in the area of $3. 8 million, There is not a decrease as I believe was suggested by my honourable friend but rather an increase of some $2, 560, 000. 00. During the intervening period oil revenues declined largely because explora tion lease rentals were not renewed by oil companies whose development strategy led them to invest in rentals in areas which they chose to believe would have a better potential for develop ment.

This of course bears no relation to gove rnment policy but for the information of my honourable friend it did result in a decrease of about $370, 000 a yaar in revenues from oil. With a qecline in production our royalties and related taxes went down by an additional $200, 000.0 0. This was much more than balanced however by increases in revenues from metallic minerals. This year the oil royalty revenue is again rising and I'm sure he will be as happy to note that fact as are we . Concerning the Fisheries Branch , the revenues for. '58 -59 were $253, 000. 00.

These have increased to approximately $402, 000 by reason of an upward change in angling licences from $1. 00 to $2. 25 . In any case as my honourable friend has noted revenues from Fisheries are up . As for the Wildlife Branch formerly the Game Branch, the 58 -59 revenues were $416, 000, These have not decreased as my honourable friend stated, but have in fact increased and we an tic ipate approximately $442, 000 in the current fiscal year. Conce rning Forestry I would first note that Fore stry in '58- 59 included the Parks Branch as I mentioned before.

This rapidly growing function of the department has· now. been esta blished within a separate branch. The revenues in '58 -59 from the Fores try Branch were $1, 000, 000. Revenues antic ipated for '65-66 from Forest ry are $875, 000 and from Parks $480, 000 for a total of $1, 355, 000. 00. This is an increase as my honourable friend will see of approximately $355, 000.0 0. So in total, Mr. Chairman, the revenues for '58 -59 from the four br anches were approximately $2, 91 2, 000; the comparative figure for 1965�66 is $5, 999 , 000, for an increase of about $3, 087, 000 or something in excess of lOO percent.

On the expenditure side the figures for '58- 59 were as follows: Mines Branch $294, 000; Fore stry Br anch including Parks $1, 272, 000; Wildlife Branch $415, 000; Fisheries Branch $283, 000, for a total of $2, 264, 000. 00. For the current year the expenditure es timates are Forestry Branch $1, 495, 000; Wildlife Br anch $414, 000; Fisheries Branch $378, 000; Mines Branch $544, 000. 00. The expenditures then for these four branches total $2, 831, 000.0 0 . .

But my honourable friend will now remember that we have a Field Services Br anch and some of the expenditures form8rly made under the four branches under discussi on are now made under the Field Services Br anch of the department as shown in the esti mate book. Field Servicas we es tim ate will cost this year about $1, 469, 000; thus the total expenditure for the five branches are $4, 300, 000. 00. This represents an increase of slightly less than lOO percent. In short then, Mr. Chairman, what the record actually shows is that revenues from the four branches

April 22nd, 196 5 17 43 (MR. LYON cont'

d) in which my honourable friend is interested have increased by more than lOO percent while expenditures have increased by something just under lOO perce�L Lastly, the Member for Ethelbert Plains compared some costs for administration in the '5 8- 59 period which again were somewhat puzzling when we heard them. May I set the records straight on this as well. In '58-59 we were keepirig the accounting branch costs separ ate from administration. They are now part of it.

As a result the true comparison would be as follows : Administration '58 -59 $125, 000; Administration '65- 66 $342, 000 less an ARDA recovery of $2 1 , 000 for a net total of $321, 00 0.0 0. We have added since 1958 -59 two other divis ions to this appropriation, namely Co nservation Education which I explained in the House last year and the Economics and Planning Division whose costs two years ago would have been found in the forestry appropriation.

We believe that we now have grouped these functions proper ly and as a result the administration costs grouped together now add to $342, 000 for the year · just beginning� The actual administration costs within these totals have risen by less than 50 percent against a total departmental revenue rise of over lOO percent. I trust that that clarifies some of the figures that were used by the Member for Ethelbert Plains . · Now having reference to the comments of the Leader of the New Democratic Party.

He commented on the oil industry in general and described in some detail the operations of imper' ial Oil Limited· in Ca nada and without going into too much detail, I should merely point out, I know he wasn't -intending to say that Imperial Oil were a big operator in Manitoba - they 'aren't, but I should point out that really Imperial Oil is a smaller operator in Manitoba. C ai ifornia Standard is the main operator as he is aware in Manitoba. So I won't make any further c·om_: ment on those figures except to say that they really have very little application to the oil in dustry in· this province.

I might say that in Manitoba the figures that would be of interest to him and would give him some indication of what I mean, Imperial Oil have drill �d 107 wells, in SaskatChewan• they have drilled 12 58 wells, ih Alberta they've drilled 1794 wells; so he can get some idea of the order of magnitude of production by that company. MR. PAULLEY : . , .. Mr. Chairma n, to my honourable friend the Minister I was oril.y using Imperial Oil as illustrating the industry and it was the ohly' report that! had before me. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, the burden of his remarks were that it appeared to him from the statement that I made at the outset of these estimates that Manitoba was involved in a "give-away" program of some sort vis-a- vis the mineral resources of the province and I should like first of all to deny that charge and to deny that statement and say that really we don't look upon this as a give-away program.

We look upon it rather as a reasonable 'sound and practical incentive program, which on the one hand will, we hopefully thihk, attract exploration both in the hard rock and in the oil fields in Manitoba and at the same time will continue to assure the people of Manitoba a proper return from the exploitation of these natural resources in the province. But I do want to as sure him that we are not going to give away our oil resources be cause he did seem to stress this question of oil.

In fact the oil incentives designed to promote exploration of the deeper horizons, and I think he will understand what we 're getting at, that our present production comes from a relatively shallow belt, and we are trying to get the drilling companies to go deeper because we think that these extra probes will be productive .

In order to get them to go deeper -- drilling costs of course go up at a fantastic rate the deeper you go -- in order to provide some incentives for this type of deeper drilling, we felt that after examining the programs of other provinces where oil is present that we could reason ably .and practically offer the kinds of incentives that I have recommended to the House and which will be appearing in due course as part of the regulations of the department.

These oil incentives respecting the deeper horizons are in one sense more restrictive than at present when drilling is to be ohly to the Missis sipian formation. The maximum area held by one company under reservations or permits will be reduced from the 1, 6000, 000 acres actually held under reservation during the previous administration to a maximum of 115, 200 acres. The Cr own leases selection in the new permit areas will remain at 50 percent on the checkerboard pattern.

In Alberta, companie s may acquire lOO percent of the Cr own rights i1i the whole southeast quarter of the province and the royalty paid is on a sli ding scale depending on production per well, running from five percent to 16 2/3 percent. I believe my honourable friend made some reference to the fact that Alberta did not engage in this kind of incentive pro gram so I pause to point out to him that the type of incentive that is actually given in southern Alberta is much more extensive than that which we are recommending in Manitoba.

The Province of Saskatchewan recently announced a royalty-free period to December 3 1 , 1970, for all production from any deeper horizon. That's a long period. We propose in Manitoba

17 44 April 22nd, 1965 (MR . LYON cont'd) ... to limit this royalty-free period to the wells in the square mile s con taining the discovery well. Saskatchewan royalty rate is on a sliding scale similar to the Alberta scale ,

whereas the Crown royalty rate paid in Manitoba is at a flate rate of 12 1/2 percent. If Manitob a accepted the same sliding scale as they have in the other provinces the royalty rate would be five percent. So I think the se figures are indica tive to my honourable friend, at least I hope they are ind ic ative to him, that we are not embarked on a loose and profligate give -away program.

We think that these are reasonable incenti ves and the se have been carefully considered after a review of programs in other provinces, after a careful rev iew of the ty pes of formations that we have in Manitoba and the kind of exploration, and we hope, development, that will take place in the se deeper formations and I know that he would join with us in hoping that they will be responsible for encour aging this kind of extra drilling to the se deeper horizo ns .

I may say as well that these incentives are aimed more dire ctly at smaller independent oil companies than they are say at larger companies like Imperia l or California Standard which is the main operator in Manitoba. That is the only comment I can make upon the remarks thus far of the Honourable Leac;ler of the New Democratic Party. Now, with respect to the mineral incentives that have been announced, that is in the hard rock field, as opposed to the oil field, I wouldmake these additional remarks to him . This is not, again I repeat, Mr.

Chairman, this is not a rat race that we . are engaged in in Manitoba and I do want to effectively bury that concept. If this were so we wouldn't have increased the royalty tax rates as we did at the last sessi on of the legis lature . I think my honourable friend will recall the rates of taxation were increased -- I think he supported the bill that increased those rates at the last legisla ture -- and the effect of that increase of course is that any com pany making a profit of $5 mi llion or more per year now pays a larger tax than ever before in the Province of Manitoba.

The amendment to The Mining Royalty and Tax Act, which is be fore the House at the present time , that the royalty tax payable by new mi ne.s will be one -half of the standard tax, does not increase the reduction authorized at the last sessi on but it con firms that all companies will rece ive this reduction for a full three yea rs.

As I explained to members of the House yeste rday, the wording of the bill as we brought it in at the last sessi on left this exemption on a discret ionary basis and this was really not satisfact ory, and on refle c tion we have decided, I think wisely, to change it and make it an absolute exemption, applic able to all new mi nes in the first three-year period. Some of the other provincial jurisdictions, and I point this out to him, Mr. Chairman, some of the other provincia l jurisdict ions and Canada, exempt new mines from all taxation for a three-year period.

So it could hardly be said that Manitoba, providing for a 50 percent exemption, is engaged in the kind of give-away program or that kind of heavier incentive that is used in other provinces in Canada. The reduction in royalty tax applica ble .to new mines is a recognition of the fact that excee dingly large capital expenditures are required for severa l years prior to the commencement of production and permits the company to recover a part of this inve stment before it 's required to pay the entire tax. Now I'm not telling him anything new when I tell him that.

That's the rationale surrounding any of the se incentives that are offered to large mining companie s. I really can't understand his descri ption of our project "Pion eer" as a conce ssi on to large mi ning companies or as a give -away program . Rea lly it isn't that at all. This program, I think he will come to appreciate, will supply on a regional basis, the basic sci entific in formation necess ary to select the most favourable areas for exploration and this information will be available to all who wish to make use of it. It's not something that 's be ing done for one company.

It's information that when completed and published is available to all mining com panies in Canada or in the United States or in the world, who. wish to take advantage of this much more intensive geological work that will be done unde r this new project "Pionee r". The proposed program is a logical, and we think, a necess ary extension of geologica l mapping· and it's recognized as such, I think, by all le ading geologists across the country.

Few, if any, mi ning companies could or would unde rtake a program of this nature and I suggest to him that this is particu larly the kind of program in which government can be involve d. While it doesn't offend any of his philo sophical or political precepts, I'm sure it 's one that would find favour with the Offical Opposition, and one that would find favour as well with the members on thi s side , because we feel that this is a true area where government partic ipation can take place with out infringing on the gene ral concept of the free enterprise system that all of us adhere to, or

April 22nd, 1965 17 45 (MR. LYON cont'd) ..... at least most of us adhere to in this House. So I repeat again that the industry' s objective is to select specific targets and to prove or disprove that they have an economic value and this program that we have announced will help in the selection of these tar gets and we think it will help much more than any other information that we have ever been able to turn out as an aid to mineral exploration. It appears that perhaps my honourable friend didn't catch the full import of the nature and intent of project "Pioneer".

I hope that the foregoing does serve to give him more information in this regard. I would further explain, Mr. Chairman, that the $300, 000 expenditure will be phased over a three-year period and we estima te that roughly half of this amount, roughly $1 50, 000 , will be spent in the form of grants to the University of Manitoba - and I emphasize that, grants to our own University here - because they are collaborating so closely with the government on this exploration project.

These grants will thus be of benefit not only to the government and the mi ning industry indirectly, but also to the University we hope in the development of scientific knowledge and skilled sci entific personnel. Geologica l exploration and mapping is a very vital activity in this field and it 's carried out every year by the Mines Branch and this project is an extension to the normal work that will be done or that is done every year by the department. In short then, Mr.

Chairma n, far from embarking on a give-away program, the govern ment has already taken the necessa ry steps to increase its share of the benefits that accrue from development of mineral resources, but at the same time we feel that these added measures will give encouragement to attract new and further exploration if the riches which lie locked within the bowels of our earth are to be discovered and utilized for the ultimate benefit of all of the citizens of Manitoba.

I mig ht say that different approaches are being used in different provinces and I make no comment upon the programs that are currently being put into play in Saskatchewan or other provinces in Ca nada. In Saskatchewan, my honourable friend may not be aware of this, but the Province of Saskatchewan is now rebating to industry one-half of the cost of the initial expense of exploring and developing specific properties. One news report that we have seen states that Saskatchewan is considering spending $7 million on this assist ance program in the next fisca l year.

All I can say is that, without making comment on this, this is not that type of a program . We feel that this is a different program. We feel that this is a program however that will meet the kind of need that we feel exists in Manitoba and will be productive, we hope as productive, if not more productive than other incentive programs that are being put forward by other pro-· vincial administrations.

Now he also asked one small question conce rning Sogepet and their work in the Ca pe Tat nam area and the work carried out by Sogepet from September '62 to the end of '64 has been confined to surface investig ation and a narrow magnetic survey. Surface work has included geo logical reconnaiss ance and paleontological investi gation - (I can't pronounce it any more than I'm sure my honourable friend can understand it) -- (Interjection) -- Paleontology, yes . Inter pretive studies based on this surface work and the study of ice conditions in the area that have also been undertaken.

In 1964 a refraction seismic survey, which I am sure he will be closely familia r with, was carried out to aid in structural and stratagraphic

interpretation. (Interjection) -- If my honourable friend wants to meet me when the House adjourns I'll get hold of somebody who can decipher all of these words for both of us, or for perhaps everybody in the House. But that in es sence is the latest report we have on the activities of Sogepet in that area. -- (Interjection) -- I think it might be summarized in saying "They've done good so far". MR. PAULLEY: But they haven't got oil. MR. LYON: The Member from Inkster -- does my honourable friend wish to talk ? MR . PAULLEY: Yes. Mr: Chairman, if the Minister will, or is in a position to, one other question.

I did ask of my honourable friend that he hasn't referred to, that I'm aware of, unless it was done at the time of taking the vote on his salaries -- and I express my congratu lations to him that he is now back on full salary. I apologize, Mr. Chairman, to the committee for not being present for the vote seeing as I introduced it, but anyway I'm glad that my hon ourable friend as my colle ague from Inkster said, does not now have to go on relief.

But the question I wish to ask now of my honourable friend - in my remarks the other day I asked him whether or not he could make some comments or make a report as to the situation regarding the loan that we made to San Antonio, because as I understand, one of the objectives of the Pioneer project is for the discovery of gold or at least setting up the basis for possi ble further discoveries of gold in the belt referred to in the remarks of my honourable friend. I don't

17 46 April 22nd, 1965 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) .. know whether he omitted this or had it, and if he hasn't got the info r mation at hand, Mr. Chairman, possibly over the supper hour -I doubt if he estimates will be passed completely by 5:3 0 he mig ht be able to get that information. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairma n, before le aving that point, I was going to comment and I'll try to find the info rmation, additional info rmation on San Antonio. We can deal with that under the item or now, or I could find it perhaps over the -- (Interjection) -- ye s.

I was going to make brief comment about the statem ent made by the Honourable Member for Inkster, relative to that great summer resort of Winnipeg Beach. We 're all aware of the fact, of course, that that great resort is in the consti tuency of Gimli. The Honourable Minister of Education has more than a passi ng inte rest in that area. While I'm unable to give him any de finitive comment as to what action, if any, the government is contemplating in that area, I can say to him that we have had a series of meetings with representative s <'lf the council, par ticu larly the ma:yor .

I was out ther� myself last summer taking a look at the area and we are aware of the problem that is being occa sioned by the suggestion that the present re creation facilities -- that is the merry-go -round and .the other activities that are carried on along the b oardwalk -there's some suggestion that the operators of this enterprise are considering clos ing it. This of course would have some detri menta l effect, of course, upon the activitie s of thatb each area.

I must say to my h �nourable friend that one of the problems that faces government in contemplating what areas you are going to have provincial parks or provinc ia l recrea tion areas in, is the size and the adaptability or suitability of the particular area for the kind of develop ment that the department over the years has participated in.

And when we come to a provincial park cancept, of course, that is a large tract of land on the area or on the size of Falcon Beach, on the size of the proposed or the new Birds Hill Park, on the size of the Asessi ppi Park which is going to be approximately 5, 000 acres, on the size of the Sprucewood Park which is going to be roughly, approximately 50, 000 acres, and so on.

So this is a, when we speak of a pro vincia l park you must think of necessi ty in terms of a large acre age , a treme ndously large acre age; usually we 're thinking in terms of thousands of acres, sometimes in smaller parks, hundreds of acres.

The area that is left, that we are looking at, at Winnipeg Beach is of course much smaller and we have not had as yet a kind of a proposal that we can re ally get our teeth into - and I'm not here laying blame at anyone 's door at all - but I'm merely saying that discuss ions are taking place in the hope that a proposal can be produced in which the province mig ht find itself able to partic ipate . Now I'in not making, ce rtainly not making any commitment. I ca n't make any commitment beca use we have no money voted in the est imates this yea r for that item at all.

But we are looking. at the area with the idea of determi ning whether or not the re is a suit able tract of land available for any kind of provincia l development.

Beyond that, I really can't say any more except to tell my honourable friend that we are concerned with the problem there and if there has been thus far, co-opera tion and unde rstanding between the munic ipality, that is the Town of Winnipeg Bea ch, the province and the other people who have private int er ests involve d in the area, that I'm sure that some solution can be worked out which will insure that Winnipe g Beach remains the kind of attraction that it is today, to so many thousands of visitors -- not only from outside of the province but visitors from Winnip eg and visitors from all parts of Manitoba.

But I'm sorry, I can't be more definitive at this time and tell him that any plan has been approved, or any money has been voted. That is not the case and I would be wrong if I told him so. MR. GRAY: .•... permit a question, Mr. Chairma n ? What's the situation in Grand Bea ch? Is it not the same as at Winnipeg Beach? You are now spending considera ble sums of money on the Grand Beach for the purposes of the public, recreation. Couldn't this same thing apply to the Winnipeg Beach? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, that 's precisely the problem that we face when we try to consider - Grand Bea ch, of course, we started off with this idea. Grand Beach is a provinc ial park, approximately -- what was it ? 200- odd acres were bought from the CNR and these were then joined with other additional Crown acre age in the area, contiguous Crown acreage, to form a very large tract of land which is now de signated as the Grand Beach Provincial Park.

This type of developmen t really is not feas ible on that scale at Winni pe g Bea ch unle ss one contemplates the purchase by the government of a huge tract of land involving many cottages and othe r buildings that are presently on the site . In effect what we have at Winnipeg Beach is a town and a town that is also a be ach resort, and the problems that they face appear to be

• April 22nd, 1965 1747 (MR. LYON cont'

d) largely of a munici pal nature and largely of the kind of development that can be produced there so that they will have a good continuing municipal beach. But we are trying to explore any ways at all whereby this beach area can be certainly maintaine d and cer tainly, if possible, enha nced. But I stress the fact that this is a muni cipal - at the present ti me, it's a municipal beach and there are many many, of course, municipal be aches in Manitob a.

We get count less requests throughout the year for help here and help the re on munic ipal beach es, but the hard fact of life is, of course, that we do not have money. We do not have a provincial vote for support of municipal parks or beach es. And that is one of the hard facts of lif e that we run up against. Now, some day, perhaps, we may find that we have enough money to support a policy :of fina ncia l aid to munici pal parks or beach es, but that day, unfortunately, has not arriv ed yet .. !d on't know when it will arrive .

And so we're, everybody involved is caught within the inhib itions of what provincial policy and provincial money permits at the present ti me . MR. GRAY: ...•. Minister permit one more que stion and I'm through. Could anything be done for the next summer season ? In other words, the way you have explained, it's under considera tion - unde r considera tion could be a year or two. Summer is approaching. Thous ands of people depend on this particular spot. Can anything be done, or negotiations carried on, or money raised before' the summer, the short summer season? MR. LYON: I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman, but I really can't add to what I've already said in thi s regard, ex cept to say that we are in touch with the council and with other int erests involved who .are de sirous of continuing Winnipeg Beach as a resort area, but I' can't really gci beyond that,_ Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Ra disson mentioned the question of 'San Antonio and I do have in front of me a recent, very recent press clipping which comes from the Northern Miner of April 15, 19 65, ·and I'm sure that he will apprecia te that while the government has a loan, or this Legisla ture has authorized a loan to the company, we 're in the position not of giving an annuaL report to the Legisl ature or to the people on the progress of the company but rather we must depend on the reports that . are given to us pursuant to the agreement and we must depend as well upon .statements that are made by managem ent concerning the operation of San Alltonio Mine s.

I think the best I can.do at this stage is to read this most recen t report wherein manage ment are quoted and to tell him first of all that it looks to be a very encou raging report. And may I just add to that my own comment that the situation at ·San Antonio this year is much more enco uraging than it was at this time last ye ar. They still have a serious manpower problem - that is in turnove r of mi ners and so on - but the general mi nera l si tuation is better than it has been for some time .

So I read this report, as I say, taken from the Northern Miner which is the most recent .piece of paper that I have on San Antonio. "San Antonio Gold Mines continues to turn in its best mi ne performance for years . " - This is the story. "The first three months of the year saw production of 7, 857 ounces of gold chalked up, a smart gain ove r 6, 80 3 ounces produced in the comparable period of last year. But more important, the Northern Miner gathers from company offic ials the mi ne continues to respond to sustain new developmen ts .

For the first three. months a total of 827 feet of new ore was developed, averaging . 30 ounces over 6, 0 feet. This .compares with. new ore totalling 345 feet, averaging . 26 ounces over 6. 6 feet in the same period a year ago and reflects the energetic attack managemen t has been pursuing on new exploration and developmen t work.

This campaign has just come up with two liv ely new ore belts - one is on the tenth level where a new drive is just nicel y underway, opening up the up ward extension of the '61 system which responded extremely well to developmen t on the 11 th and 12 th, and the first look is really pleasing. " And then a series of statistics are given with respect to the findings of the tests that they ran. Now, I'll pass this over to my honourable friend or pass it around the House -- I'm not going to read the se stati stics all into the record. The narrative continues on, "Some check wall samples gave good values as well.

One one foot sample ran 2. 24 ounces and anothe r l. 79 ounce s. A check sample of the back on one

section ran 6. 2 ounces over l. 5 feet, all of which confirms that scmething is opening up that is going to contain a lot of gold and provide a valuable flWeetner

section for operations ahe ad. A second new ore belt lies on the 21 st level where a current drill has returned a 9. 0 foot sec tion running . 31 ounce s. This inte rsection lies 150 feet to the south of an old drill hole which gave a l. 2 foot

section running 2. 91 ounces, followed by 0. 12 ounces over 3. 2 feet. This lies in an area some 2, 000 feet east of Number 4 Win and following a third hole yet to be drilled , an old heading will be turned into the ar ea . The area incidentally is barely touched and pro vides some really lively exploration chance s. The Northern Miner gathe rs from officials that

17 48 April 22nd, 1965 (MR. LYON cont'

d) should the labour situation stay at least at recent level s" - and this is probably the important part of the narrative - "Should the labour situation stay at at least re cent levels, the vetera ned assessed gold producer should enjoy a profitable year. But manage ment emphasizes that labour is the bugbear and completely unpredi ctable .

They point out that the mine is in the best shape for years and there is good developed ore rese rve position being built up involving a fairly healthy ore grade and general performance should continue to improve so long as an adequate work force can be mai ntained at the mine , The final touches are being put on the installation of the new hoist for the Number 5 Win and deepening will get unde rway for several new levels at an early date . The lower levels for this period are bei ng closed down .and new development will be concentr:ated on the second, third, tenth, ele venth and twenty-first levels.

Now I mention again, Mr. Chairman, that this is a news story that appears in the Northern Mine r, it's available to eve rybody, but I read it as the most recent info rmation that has come to our attention, and this confirms in large measl).re the gene ral reports that we have within the department from the Mine .

It will be recalled of course by honourable members that two years ago the whole problem of the Bisse tt community . and its one major enterprise was the subject of a long and a very in terest ing debate in the House and at that time the legisla tion was passed which permi tted the loan of money by the government to San Antonio Mines for exploration and development work that was badly needed.

Since that time , or more precisely since May 1, 1963 to December 31, 19 64, the company has spent approximately $370, 000 on exploration and development work, and with the work estim ated to have been done up to the end of March 1965, that total will rise to approximately $430, 000 in exploration and development work. On our part, the government has now lent the company $240, 000 and the House will recall that our loan was required to be used in exploration and deve lopment work. Ill other words the company has faithfully di scharged its work commitments in this connection.

I don't think it's fitting as I said be fore that any public announcement about San Antonio should supplant in any way the report that management made from time to time to their shareholders and therefore the observations about the mine 's pro gress that I make are in fairly gene ral terms, but as I say, the y are reas suring. During 1964 the mi ne was able to step up its milling rate somewhat and more importantly its gold recovery increased with the result that the severe loss of '63 was sharply reduced in 1964.

The 19 64 figures that we had at the time this paper was prepared are not audited - I imagine that some of those figu res however, are now contained in this news story and therefore I'm not attempting to give any figu res to the House that have n't been given to the shareholde rs of the company. At any rate, from what has appeared, from what I have read to you from the Northern Miner and from what our own information is, we can say that the company is encouraged enough by it's own results to be looking forward to· further new and somewhat expansive development, and this of course is most encoura ging.

The mine is currently planning for a deepen ing of its workings to open up mine levels down to the 5, 100 foot level, a new hoist is be ing put in as was me ntioned in that story to service the deeper mine work, so that a more balanced operation can be maintained than has been possible with the previous inadequate hoist. Drilling in the deep level of the mine has encouraged the company to expect continuation of ore at least at these new levels and with further encourag ing results on upper levels it seems safe to assume that the outlook for the mi ne is improving.

Now that 's my statement -t hat the outlook for the mi ne is improving. I don 't propose to make any forecast of that improvement beca use I think it would be wrong to try to prognostica te on the future of the mine, but quite frankly, I do feel that the outlook is good. We have to be careful - any comments we make in the House - whet.!J.er on this side of the House or on the other side of the House, beca use the se people are on the market, their stock is on the market and we don •t want anything that is said here to reflect adverse ly one way or favourably on that stock.

So I prefer to le ave the detailed information to the company for release in the regular way that has been customary. As far as ore reserves are concerned I'm info rmed that the mine is in substa ntially the same ore rese rve posit ion as it was two years ago in '63 when the loan was first authorized. The mi ne has been operating during '64 at an aver age mi lling rate of about 365 , 000 ton. With a somewhat enlarged crew of skilled miners this rate could be improved with increased benefit of course to the company.

The company has built six new homes which were made in steinbach and the hope is that this increase in housing will enable them to attract and hold more married men than has been the case in the past. The company secured a Central Housing and Mortgage Company loan for these homes in the amount of about $43, 000 and the y have certainly made a welcome residential addition to the town of Biss ett.

April 22nd, 1965 174 9 (1\ffi. LYON cont'

d) Now beyond that, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I will go except to say that the purpose of that legisla tion in 19 63 - the prime purpose so far as membe rs of this House were concerned was to sustain the comhmnity of Bisset t, to sustain the one industry in that community so that it could continue to exist. And without patting ourselves -- and I say that collectively, to all membe rs of the House -- without patting ourselves too hard on the back, I think we can say afte r two ye ars that that aim has ce rtainly been achieved over the last two year period.

I think we can take some real credit in the fact that this rather new and unique approach to the sustenance of an important community in our province has proved, at least thus far, to have bee n a wise decisi on and I think that the people in that community would all register a hearty vote of thanks to all members of the Legisla ture for agree ing to the bi ll as we did in 19 63.

I know many of us had some que stions in our minds as to whether this approach should be used, and I for one like to say that after the experience of the past two years I think it was a very wise move and the proof of the pudding is in the ea ting. The town is there, it's functioning; the mine is still operating and this is what we aim for and our aim thus far has been achieved and I think we are all quite happy that that is\the case . :MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I join with the sentiments expressed by the Minister that this House, unitedly, in this endeavour did assist in the preservation of the town of Bi ssett. Now I haven't looked at the agreement recen tly and the Honourable the Minister I think mentioned a figure of some $240, 000 that has been advanced for exploration purposes from the Treasury. I wonder if the Minister is in a position to be able to give us any info rmation as to whether the commitments made have now been fulfilled in total and whether or not there is any - I just forget, Mr.

Chairman, the amount of the appropiration at that particular time, I even forget - as I say, I haven •t read the agreement for some considera ble period of time - the time element in the agreement. I wonder if the Minister is in a position to 'tell me whether we fulfil led the. total obligation which we made at that time and how do we stand if that hasn't been done . Now I want to say to the Honourable Minister, Mr. Chairma n, I do not seek by these questions any. information that might be prejudicial against the operation at Bisse tt. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, the full amount of the auth orized loan has now been taken up by the company. There is one other point that I did overlook and I should mention, be cause it's anothe r inte resting and I think rather unique matter that is now currently under discu ssi on. Our department, the Department of Mines has been working with the Department of Education and the Vocational Training people of the Fede ral Government in the developm ent of what we hope will be a new project.

If this plan which has it's own complexitie s can be worked out, it will involve the training and perhaps academic upgrading and specific job training for skilled mi ners using the San Antonio working as a base for this operation and training plan. Now I stress again this is only at the discussi on state but I mention it to honourable members beca use I think it is a unique approach to on-the -job -training for a class of persons, namely min ers, who to the best of my knowhJdge recei ve none of thi s kind of training in any other place in Canada.

We are hopeful that this project, or the project that is being discussed at the present time will represent some sort of a bre akthrough in this kind of training and employment area. It would not only help the San Antonio Mine area dire ctly but it would I think have wider benefits and mig ht be capable of extension to othe r mines in Manitoba and indeed throughout Canada.

The people in the Department of Education and the Federal Government Voc ational Train ing people have been in Bisset t to meet with var.ious mining people for on the spot discussion and the Mine Management I mi ght add are inte rested in co-opera ting as much as they can of course within the ir limited fina ncial ability to provide accommoda tion and underground train ing facilitie s for direct on-the-job-trai ning if this project can be gotten unde rway. The whole plan can be regarded I would think; Mr.

Chairman, very much as a pilot project which if It works, and it's still only on the drawing board, could prove to be most inte resting and would ce rtainly push our training arrangements into yet anothe r useful field. :MR. HRYHORCZU K: Mr. Chairman, the Minister threw some doubt on the figure s I gave when I first spoke on this particular department and it so happens that I have the est imates for both the revenues and the expenditur es for the years in question and I can't find any errors in my figure s. If anything, I was very kind to the Minister.

I mentioned then, that the cost of Item No. 1, the administration, was up 400 percent - actually it was up 450 percent. I haven't had a chance to follow his comments very closely. I can find them probably in the Hansard and

17 50 April 22nd, 19 65 (MR. HRYHORCZU K cont'd) .... maybe find out where we diff er, but the figures I gave are the figures, and they are correct and the y are accurate . As far as the costs of the branches, the expenditures in the branches I gave him the ben fit of the dou bt. The field operations I didn't include them. The field operations are now lumped separately in the item by th emselves and they amount to a million four. Not being able to distri bute them amongst the branches I left that million four out.

So if anything, I was very kind to the Minister in the figures I gave, and they are accurate, and if I have an opportunity to follow his line of reasoning afte r I have read the Hansard I mig ht be able to find out just what he was trying to do. But I want tci repeat again that the figures I gave are substantiated by the estimates which I have before nie right at the moment. MR. LYON: Mr: Chairma n, if there are any other questions about San Antonio I would attempt to answer them now. If not, we could deal with it again when we come to Mines. MR. FROE SE: Mr.

Chairman, the reports that the government receives from this mine, what do the y consist of? What information do tht;1y give to you? . MR LYON: I'm sorry I di dn't catch my honourable friend 's que stion. MR. FROESE : I was asking about the info rmation on the reports that are being submitted to you as the government by San Antonio Mines. What do they consist of? What actual reporting do they do ? · ' MR.

LYON: The actual reports, I wouldn't try to des ignate all of them, but they are exploration and developm ent reports that are sent to us on a regular basis pursuant to the terms of the agreemen t that was entered in to. I don't have the agreement in front of me to list them seri atam for my honourable friend but I can show him the agreement and he can see for him self the reports that we get on a regular basis . MR. CHAIRMAN: a (1) -- passed. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chair man, is the Minister going to explain his actions in bre ak- ing the law to expropriate the land at Birds Hill? . MR. LYON: Of course, Mr.

Chairman, there is no law broken so there's really nothing to explain but I'll be happy to try to edif y my honourable friend on the law, if he 's anxious to get into a discuss ion about the law. The burden of the comments that have been made about Birds Hill Park seem to fall into roughly three categ ories. No . 1, the comment ce rtainly made by the Member for Lake side is that the park is too large . No. 2, the burden of the comment from a number of honourable members opposite would be that the province is paying too little for the land that is being ex propriated.

And then the third point, and really the least important of the three is that the province is engaged in what the Honourable Member from St. George calls an illegal expropria tion. I only propose to deal with -- I'll dea l with the last point first, beca use of course this is the argument that we went through in 1961, I gue ss it was, in conne ction with the Greater Winnipeg Floodway expropriation.

I would have to tell him unfortunately that le gal advi sers of the government don't agree with his outlook now any more _than they did in 1961, and that the procedure s that have been followed are the regular procedures that they tell us are open under the present Expropriatio n Act.

There was an amendment - in other words what I am saying is this, that under the old act, as it existed up until the amendment of last year, the re was really no time limit within which notices had to be given under S ection 13, I believe it is, if my honourable friend wants to look at it -- the re 's no time limit specified, and I think he will find if he has any familiar ity with the expropriation statutes in other provinces, that

whereas a number of those have now been amended like the Manitoba one , this was a common

section that existed in other sections of expropriation acts across the country. That situation was change d, h

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-69
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 69.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c1dddf5bbb6532cbc9e961c5b61beb4b330239b7

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