Manitoba Hansard — 20 March 1967 (Sitting 78, 28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-78

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, March 20, 1967 MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Highways. 182 7 MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, might I just reply to the question of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. The Government of Canada contribution in the 1965 construction season - I'll give you the construction season, I think it probably saves getting confused - $1, 137, 000.

In 1966 the gross figure that I gave before supper as something approaching $2 million would be 1. 8 million, and then there was a repayment of $325,000 on the Portage No. 1 Highway, Trans Canada through Portage, to enable us to take advantage of the grant on the road around Portage which was greater, making a net Government of Canada contribution of 1.475 million; and an ticipated for 1967 is 1.1 million. MR . CHAIRMAN: (a)--passed; (b)--passed; (c)--passed; (d)--passed; Resolution 38- passed.

Resolution 39 -(a) (1)--passed. (2)--passed; (a)--passed; Resolution 39--passed. --(Interjection) -- Oh, I beg your pardon. (a)--passed; (b) (1)--passed; (2)--passed; (b)--pas sed. (c) (1)--passed; (2)--passed; (c)--passed; (d) (1)--passed (2)-- MR . ELMAN GUTTURMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, on (

d) a causeway would come under that wouldn't it, Mr. Chairman? What point did you want to raise that, Mr. Chairman. MR. WEIR: ............ that really it would come under the

Section 4, but any time it suits you. MR . G UTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I notice that in the program it's included in this year's program. The construction on Page 5 of the program: "Commence construction of bridge and causeway." What could the Minister tell us about this other than what he told us the other day that tests were being made. Is there anything he can add with regards to -- if they've found anything out yet and when we can expect construction to start. MR . WEIR: Not really, Mr. Chairman. I have nothing I can add at the present time. MR.

GUTTORMSUN: Is it expected then that construction will get under way this year? MR . WEIR: Yes. MR . GUTTORMSON: During the summer months or next winter? MR . WEIR: I can't say, Mr. Chairman, I don't know. MR . CHAIRMAN: (d)--passed; (e)--passed; (f)--pas�ed; (g)--passed; (h)--passed; Reso lution 39--passed. Resolution 40, No. 3. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Chairman, for a number of years now I have been inquiring as to the basis for establishing access roads into certain hamlets, villages and towns, and it seems that with nearly every passing year the specifications or requirements or qualifications for an access road changes. What are the qualifications presently in effect for towns and villages? How many miles do they have to be from the main provincial trunk road, and population and so on? Mr.

Chairman, for about two or three years hand running now I have been inquiring about the access road into Birnie and I am continually informed that it's going to be done and I will admit that certain work has been done, but it has not been brought up to the same standard of road as the provincial trunk highway that it leads to, and I understand that when the access road program was first introduced into the Legislature some eight years ago, it was understood and agreed that the access road would be of exactly the same quality as the provincial trunk road or highway that was leading past it.

Now, I have three or four letters here back and forth between myself and the Minister in connection with the Birnie road and he continues to assure me that it will be done this year. Now I wonder will it be brought up to the -- in this particular case, will the Birnie access road - we'll call it that - be brought up to exactly the same stand ard and specification asP. T JI. No. 5? MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, if I can say a word or two about access roads, because I re call having had this discussion once or twice, and I'd like to point out again that access roads as access roads don't really exist any more.

Since the provincial road network was established, access roads became a part of the provincial road system, and while at one stage of the game it was, I would say, generally the practice and it's been understood that access roads were built to the same standard as the road that went by them, the trunk road that went by them, I think that designs of highways have changed to the degree that this is no longer done and is no longer necessary to be done.

The equivalent type of road, the equivalent type of surface, giv ing just as good surface, is still carried out, but with the decreasing amount of traffic and the differential that there is between the type of traffic that uses the highway and the access road and the varying amounts of it oftimes allows for a reduced standard between the highway and

rs2s March 20, 1967 (MR. WEffi cont'd.) ..... the community, or the highway and the

section of the provincial road, as is now the case, and still perform the same service as far as that community is concerned. As far as the Birnie access road is concerned, I have no reason to believe that there is any change from the last correspondence that I had with the honourable member and I can only pre sume that it will continue as had been planned. MR . S HOEMAKER: Well, Mr. Chairman, the last correspondence that I have -and I have a whole sheaf of it here and all of this has to do with the Birnie access road, believe me - but the last one suggests that construction is "contemplated" in this year.

This is one that was written last year so I suppose that it will receive some consideration. But it was interest ing to note, Mr. Chairman, that the access road program has gone by the boards and in its place we have provincial trunk roads, and I suppose then that unless a town or hamlet or vil lage happens to be on a provincial trunk road, then it wouldn't qualify at all for an access road. In order for a toWn, hamlet or a village now to qualify for an access road it must be on a pro vincial trunk road.

Now there's another matter of which my honourable friend is quite knowledgeable and that has to do with a particular problem about a mile north of Eden and a fellow by the name of William Boyko, and I believe that the last time my honourable friend had the opportunity to speak with him was at the opening of the plant in Minnedosa last fall.

But it does raise a point that I think deserves some consideration, because this particular fellow claims that he did not have a water problem at all until the Department of Highways changed the course of the natural waterways when they built the highway, and ever since the highway was put through there, or rebuilt about 1952 or thereabouts, he has this persisting water problem that results in part of his land being flooded spring and fall, depending of course on the amount of rainfall.

But I understand that at this moment the department are prepared to offer engineering plans, that is they admit on the one hand that he possibly has a point, but they go on to say that so far as the cost of implementing the plan that they recommend is concerned, that that will be a municipal responsibility. Now, his argument is - and certainly the argument or the point that the rural municipality holds - is that it is not their responsibility if it is a fact that the building of the road changed the natural watercourse.

I would be interested to know where this particular man stands at the present time and where does anyone else stand that is in his position or is faced with the same problem that he is faced with. And while I'm on my feet I might as well talk about another chap and his is a similar problem - and my honourable friend has some correspondence on him too, it's on a provincial trunk road - where the water runs down the ditch and the ditch forms the creek bed.

Last spring it undermined his fence for about a half a mile and the fence caved into the ditch, and I don't believe to this date that the government has replaced the fence. He has continually pres sed for this work to be done and naturally I believe that it's a government responsibility. But these two cases raises the point that if a government or a municipality builds a road and changes the natural watercourse, who is responsible for the damages that are done thereafter? MR . WEffi: Well, Mr.

Chairman, on that I could go back and add another comment or two on access roads but I don't think I will, it just starts the discussion all over again and dis cretion is probably the better part of valour at this stage of the game. When you come to your individual problems that the Honourable Member for Gladstone is speaking about, some of these details I remember and some of them I'm afraid escape me from time to time so it becomes a little difficult. I'm not able to bring all of my files into the Chamber like the Honourable Member for Gladstone does or my filing system isn't as good or something. MR .

CAMPBELL: These aren't all of his. MR . WEffi: But as far as Mr. Boyko is concerned, I did see him on the date mentioned and the commitment that I gave him -- and one of his strongest complaints was that some of the staff - at that stage of the game I was very new to water control - some of the staff had been out to look at his problem, and I can't recall whether it was highways or whether it was water control, but nobody had ever gone to see him, according to him, and I agreed at that time to have somebody go to see him and I believe they have been to see him.

What has trans pired since that date I must admit that I'm not up-to-date on, but I will attempt to follow it up for the honourable member, and the same really applies to the gentleman who has lost some of his fence. I must confess that I can't remember the details but I will attempt to look it up and see what I can find out. As far as responsibility, I think it's quite clear, the only thing that whoever disturbs the natural flow finds themselves in difficulty legally. The only thing that I would mention is that

March 20, 1967 182 9 ( MR . WEIR cont'd.) from time to time there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the natural flow has been interrupted and changed or whether it hasn't been interrupted or changed, and thereby hangs a very difficult area in attempting to assess whether or not this has happened. A fair part of the life of the staff of the department is spent in attempting to iron out whether or not this actually happens from time to time. They attempt to be fair and in this regard I think all I can do is agree to have a look at it with them to see what I can find out on these instances. MR .

MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I 'm not sure whether this is the item to discuss it - it deals with the Metropolitan street system - but just to make sure that I don't miss the oppor tunity, I'll speak on Number 3 and probably touch on some things that might be covered by 4. The entire question of the provincial participation in the Metropolitan street system is one that has been aggravating to all the municipalities in Metropolitan Winnipeg and of course the Metropolitan Corporation itself.

The other day we heard from one of the members, figures showing that the amount derived from car licences, gasoline tax and so on has now grown to a greater amount than what is spent on the highway systems of Manitoba and I 'm sure ev eryone will have to agree that the greatest portion of this money is derived from within the Metro politan area.

There are more cars, more trucks being driven within the Metropolitan area, so there are more licences issued and of course more gasoline tax being paid and as we go into the purple gas scheme I'm sure there will be even a greater percentage again being spent in the Metro area. And yet the amount spent by this province towards the Metropolitan street system is a very poor and picayune amount, when you consider the amount that's derived from the area, what is actually put back, and I say very little. Insofar as maintenance is concerned, the province pays on a formula of $1, 000 per lane mile.

This doesn't come anything near the original suggestion that there should be 50 percent of the cost paid. I think the amount today in order to reach that 50 percent would have to be something like $2,000 per lane-mile and yet the province persists in paying a dollar ... . and not relating it to the increased costs that we all know has hit the construction industry. Within the last year I believe costs in road construction have gone up about 10 percent and yet the figures shown here would indicate that the amount being paid to Metropolitan Winnipeg is about the same as last year, a very slight difference.

Insofar as the construction itself is concerned here the problem is that although the total dollars spent on construction may be considerable, although there is a drop, the interesting thing is that the province determines and decides for itself what shall be constructed in this coming year. From what I g ather Metro still doesn't know what the government is prepared to approve of for 1967. They're still waiting to hear from on high. Beside the fact that this is very poor planning, beside the fact that it doesn't necessarily build the roads that Metro wants.

The best example I can think of is the perimeter highway. More work is being done on the perimeter highway today, and the Minister made the statement that the perimeter high way eases the cluttering up of central Metro area. The truth of the matter is this, if priorities were taken into account, and if Metro's opinion was requested, I suspect strongly that they would tell the province to let Jhe perimeter highway go for the present and concentrate on arterial streets within Greater Winnipeg where they don't have 50 cars a day but they have 12,000 cars a day and are far more important to Metropolitan Winnipeg.

Generally, I think the government have failed, failed badly to take into account that Metropolitan Winnipeg has to be considered as being the central part of Manitoba, that if it strangles in its arterial and its traffic problems, then this province is going to suffer. I don't think it's excusable to simply say, well there's just so much money and we are going to determine what it shall be. You've created Metro to resolve problems. They're prepared and willing to undertake these problems but they can't do it without financial support.

They certainly can't do it from the financial resources of their own municipal areas. The province has an expanding income; the municipalities by and large are fixed in their income and have a constant income. It doesn't rise to the same extent that the provincial income does. The province has other means of taxation, the municipalities haven't; so that by and large the prob lem has become more aggravated in the last few years,

whereas the hope when Metro was established that finally we would cut through the friction betweenmunicipalities insofar as road construction is concerned and the cost sharing between municipalities and that now a higher authority would come along which would, through its financial assistance make possible the streamlining and an updating of the traffic problems within Greater Winnipeg. This hasn't developed. It has grown slightly; it's better than it was six years ago, but it's very very -I'd

1830 March 20, 1967 (MR. MILLER cont'd. ) say almost smells -- I'm trying to think of the right word with- out being insulting. It's really not doing the job that I think was envisaged by this province when it established. Metro or by Metro when it came into being.

I think it is high time that the government accepted the principle that they must participate not on, as little as they can get away with in the Metro area, but accepting the responsibility that it is essential for the growth ofMetro Winnipeg to put into Metro Winnipeg a decent arterial system and maintain it, so that it can serve not just greater Winnipeg but all of Manitoba. One more question, I am curious about a line in here, item (

c) referring to work in un- organized territory and disorganized municipalities. Who·are the disorganized municipalities? MR . WEffi: West Kildonan. MR . MILLER: West Kildonan. Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: (a)--passed .. .. . MR. WEffi: · Mr. Chairman, maybe I should just say a word on this. He said one more question, I think the honourable member really only asked the one question. I really don't think he was asking questions, he wanted to make a point, but I would like to answer that one question.

Unorganized and disorganized municipalities are relatively undeveloped areas of Manitoba where the province takes the place of the municipalities. MR. MILLER: That's why they're disorganized. MR . WEffi: No - I can't accept that definition. Sometime when we have a little more time, without taking up the time of all of the members, I'd be happy to sit down and explain it to you because I think it is a fairly well understood term within the House. Disorganized muni cipalities are ones that were organized at one time and no longer are. Unorganized is an area that never was organized.

Now the metropolitan street system, Mr. Chairman. I just can't accept the fact that they have been left to flounder all as badly as the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks says. I can't accept the statement that he makes that the metropolitan area is strangling, or allowed to strangle with its arterial problems. I believe that Metropolitan Winnipeg has done a pretty good job and I think that the Metropolitan Winnipeg Council for the most part appreciates the co-operation that they have had from the Department of Highways in attempting to proceed to develop a network.

It is true that their maintenance costs have gone up, at the time the Metro streets system was sorted out, the $1,000 a lane-mile was in the area not too far distant from the 50 percent of the maintenance costs and it was on this basis that the $1,000 a mile was really arrived at at that time. Costs have changed, some of the types of streets they have taken over are changed and that cost is no longer $1, 000 a mile. This is an area which as far as I am concerned is open to negotiation again with the Metropolitan Corporation. MR. MILLER: This year. MR. WEffi: Yes this year.

I must say that our funds that we have established are ap proximately the same amount of dollars for the Metropolitan Corporation, as last year, but I would be quite open, and I'm going to be open as soon as I can have an opportunity to discuss it with them.

As a matter of fact, I have told the chairman than am prepared to discuss it with him, to do something like we are doing with water estimates'-within the province and the road estimates within the province, but with the increasing costs that maybe a little more at tention should be shown to the maintenance of some of these facilities that we have got, at the expense of not moving quite as fast capitally speaking. I am quite prepared to sit down and dis cuss with the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg and planning to do it within the next few days.

I think that traffic moves extremely well within Metropolitan Winnipeg. I think that the co-operation between the municipalities, Metro and the Province is improving year by year and that we are making great progress. I can't accept the fact that the proportion of money spent within Winnipeg and outside Winnipeg really merits all that much concern, because I wonder who the real beneficiaries are of the extra two lanes from Winnipeg to Portage la Prairie. It's not just the people of Portage la Prairie.

If it were just for the people of Portage la Prairie and the people of rural Manitoba I don't suppose we would have developed a four-lane facility there yet. There are many of the roads outside of the metropolitan area that are developed for the use of, and thank goodness that they are there, of the citizens of Manitoba and much of that use is made by people that are within the urban area.

I don't think that we can cut the highway pie, if you like, on a basis of who contributes and who doesn't; I think that we have to develop a plan for a road network in the province including an arterial street network within Metropolitan Winnipeg and do our best as citizens of Manitoba

March 20, 1967 1831 (MR. \!iEIR cont'd.) •.... to keep that up to modern day standards. Now whoev er does it, whether it's the province or whether it's Metro, I don't think that we are ever going to get unanimity as to what all of the projects should be scheduling one way or the other. As far as Metro is concerned, they haven't got approval of their program yet, I expect that they will have it.

As a matter of fact if it hadn't been for the fact that we were prepared to negotiate as be tween capital and current we could probably have looked at the program, but the two of them go hand in hand and it requires an opportunity for the staff of the department and myself to sit down with the Committee of Streets and Transit of the Metropolitan Government to attempt to come to some agreement as to what we feel is the best thing to do under the circumstances. So, Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to delay this too long unless it is necessary but I just didn't want to let those statements stand all that bare faced because really I think the participa tion and the co -operation between the Highways Department and Metropolitan Winnipeg is really pretty good. MR . MILLER: Just a couple of questions, Mr. Chairman.

As I gather, the Minister said that he is willing to negotiate with the Metropolitan Corporation with regard to roads within Metro Winnipeg, and am I correct in what you said, that they have the choice of getting more per lane -mile for maintenance, in which case the capital or new roadways would have to be cut down, or they could build more roads in which case they would have to live with this $1,000 a lane-mile. In other words an either /or, that is your alternative that they have to face up to.

The other question is this: has there been no thought on the part of the government that the roadways within Metro Winnipeg should not be paid for out of current revenue but should be capitalized just as 1\Ietro is capitalizing this road construction, over ten or twenty year deben ture - repayment system, rather than a cash system as it is here. MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman on those two questions, I don't believe I said it was an either/or proposition.

I think I indicated that I was prepared to negotiate on that basis, that the overall dollars were approximately the same as they were last year and that I think we need to sit down and discuss the alternatives between us. I think anybody that has experience on Metro Council or any other council finds out that the department isn't in the habit of taking an either /or position at the outset, with anybody -M etropolitan Council or anybody else. We are prepared to listen and we are prepared to sit down and discuss these things.

As far as the merits of borrowing or paying out of current rev enues, that's one of judg ment. There is only so much borrowing that is reasonable for the province to do and whether they borrow for roads and pay out of current capital for drains or how they balance it I think it really doesn't matter all that much.

We have chosen this year to put the capital programs for the Floodway and the Portage diversion and Shellmouth Dam into the borrowing estimates and to put the roads and streets within the current estimates, which is the same -well it's not the same because the Floodway expenditures last year were within current as well. l\ffi. FROESE: l\Ir. Chairman, I notice here that under (4) we have 23 million four hundred for Highways and also under (3) (

a) we have $5 million. Does that 5 million come under this program here that -- it's in addition to that? Could we have some itemized or more de tailed plans of the items (

a) and (

b) the 5 million and the 9 million? MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, no not really on the 5 million. The 5 million is the straight maintenance money which pays for the snowplowing and the ordinary maintenance gravel and so on within the trunk highway system. As far as (

b) is concerned, yes I can break that down for you a little. There's anticipated 4.4 million for provincial road maintenance; there's $3,680, 000 for Metro; there's $950,000 for aid to cities, towns and villages in the rest of Manitoba. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 40 --passed; Resolution 41 ..• ••• MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on 4, I wonder if under this item the Minister could tell us anything further about the Mississippi Parkway? This is a project that was undertaken some years ago.

The initial idea was that the Province of Manitoba would co -operate with the United States, particularly the State of Minnesota; they would provide some money to construct the portion within Manitoba that would connect the isolated northwest angle with their own high way system and then continue north. Some two years ago now this government proceeded to call the present highway up through Steinbach part of the great river road or the Mississippi Parkway and has so labelled it.

I understand howev er that the American Government is still interested in connecting the north west angle and that there are some bills before the U. S .Senate which are going to lead to this action. Has the Manitoba Government co-operated with the Mississippi Parkway group; have

1832 March 20, 1967 (:MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) we sent delegates down to their meetings and are we in con - stant touch with what is going on there to realize this project where they in fact are going to invest money in our province to build roads - true for their convenience but ours at the same time'2 MR . WEffi: Yes, 1\Ir. Chairman, on this aspect there was an agreement as the Honour able Leader of the Opposition knows that is now - I think if my memory serves me right - just over five years old.

Because, and again I 'm going from memory I haven't seen it recently, but I believe that the agreement expired on February 2nd of this year between Minnesota and Manitoba. The bills that I mentioned have been before the House in Washington on at least two occasions, maybe oftener than that, and have been tabled on every occasion that they've been there.

I am no longer the representative on the Mississippi Parkway Commission; my col league the Minister of Tourism and Recreation is now the representative on the 1\lississippi Parkway and I think it's fair to say that our represen.tation has been continued and we've tried to keep abreast of anything that there is.

There is a certain amount of publicity and tourism value out of the Mississippi Parkway and we felt that in the meantime we could be taking ad vantage out of our existing trunk highway system by designating it as the Mississippi Parkway until such time as -- the Mississippi Parkway is the wrong road according to the way it's signed really, I guess it's the great river road is the way it is referred to on the signs nowa days. But yes our association is continuing in that area. :MR. GUTTORl\ISON: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps I would be remiss if I didn't express the encouragement that we in the Interlake along No. 6 have received from the program outlined in the program this year. This is not to indicate that people are satisfied by any means but I think it's only fair to say that we 're encouraged by the fact that you are paving some more of No. 6 and are going to continue -I think it's a program of improving the road north between Eriksdale and Moosehorn. I was wondering if the Minister could indicate at this time - there's no indication in the program of what you plan to do.

Will you be letting one contract or will it be so many miles this year, so many miles next year. Could he indicate what is m tended. I believe if you look on Page 2. :MR. WEffi: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can almost see it in my sleep. I really can't tell the honourable member whether it would be one contract or whether it would be more than one; my guess is that there will be one contract in that area, in the entire distance that is mentioned· there, it speaks of commence, it's intended to go far enough that there would be one contract for an improved surface on it the following year if we 're able to

schedule improved servicing on it in that area; whether or not there's more than that this year I 'm not prepared to say at this stage of the game because any negotiations that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture has with the Government of Canada may influence the amount of work that we 're able to ac- complish in that area this year. , :MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, won't that decision though - that decision won't be made insofar as what you'll be doing on that contract prior to the agreement or will you be waiting for that agreement to be signed before you determine how long the contract will be? :MR.

VlEffi: Mr. Chairman, I think a decision can be made on one contract at some stage of the game. I really can't say at this stage of the game what's going to happen. We anticipate one contract this year -- (Interjection) -- no no not one contract for the whole thing; we don't anticipate that at all. There's a different type of work required op. various areas of that road and I just can't recall what areas are needing a little bit of widening and what areas need a lot of widening and things of that nature, but we would contemplate one contract starting at Eriksdale and going north this year. :MR.

GUTTORMSON: Well I'm hopeful, Mr. Chairman, when that ARDA contract is signed that a healthy allotment of pavement will be considered for No. 6 and I would hope that the road would be in readiness for that anticipated pavement next year, if it comes about. I 'm sorry. -- (Interjection) -- Would the same thing apply with regard to No. 68? I see a pro gram of construction from No. 16 to 6. Is that one contract or are they going to be two con tracts? :MR. WEffi: Mr. Chairman, I don't begin to try and keep this detail but it would be .. . . :MR . GUTTORMSON: It said commence. :MR .

WEffi: Yes, one contract I expect for next year, to do the whole it would be at least two contracts, but as the honourable member knows we have had difficulties in this area; we have drainage problems which are involved in the Fisher River watershed and part of our

1\Iarch 20, 1967 1833 (MR. WEffi cont 'd.) plans can't be completed until we just see where we 're going alto- gether drainage-wise on that stretch of road. l\IR, GUTTORMSON: This was in the program last year and I believe for the reason just given it didn't start. We can rest assured it will start this year though? MR . \VEffi: Assuming that the water problems can be got out of the road, this is another area that we're contemplating assistance from the Government of Canada. lVIR. DOERN: l\Ir. Chairman, I believe that this particular

section deals with such mat ters as the construction of the Nairn Avenue Overpass and also railways and I wanted to deal with some of these questions. I wanted to ask the l\linister - and I'm not sure whether this is his responsibility about the reaction toexpropriations taking place on Nairn Avenue, because I have had a number of complaints over the kind of offers that are being made to the people on that street.

One example might be cited, a man who has been a resident there for 30 years beside a piece of industrial property with a 320 foot lot by 60, in a house which must be worth at least $10 to $15, 000, being offered $9,000. I don't know, I've heard a number of complaints from residents that the expropriation settlements or the offers being made are completely un realistic. Now I wanted to touch on this question of the overpass, I assume this is the

section wherein it falls, but it still deals with Metro street systems and the construction of related projects.

This is a problem that has plagued the people of my area for 50 years, in fact that is no exaggeration because at one point when I was campaigning I walked into a house and talked to a lady about railways -- the mere mention of which causes an Elmwood resident to go through the ceiling of his house and into orbit -- and this lady said, as a matter of fact she said it was 50 years ago almost today that my house burnt do·wn and it was - it burned you know into the ground largely because the fire engin e - I don't know if it was horse dravm or mechanized, ,\·as held up, so this has been a very serious problem - the question of fire trucks, hospital ambulances and so on.

And I wanted to draw to the attention of the 1\Iinister this question of railways because I feel it affects not only the metropolitan area but it affects the entire prov ince as it affects the entire country. I assume that his department really has a super title which they don't use of transportation and I assume that perhaps the biggest road block to rapid transportation that I can think of is railways other than ordinary vehicles and so on, you 're constantly crossing railways lines.

This brings to mind the Federal Railway Act which sug gests -n ot suggests but states quite as a matter of fact that no railway train should stop for more than five minutes, whether it is either standing, whether it is shunting boxcars, or as the Act is phrased "in any other way unduly delaying traffic,... and I'd suggest that that also means the movement thereof.

This Act is simply not being enforced; in fact the member of parliament for Winnipeg North raised this question in the House of Commons under an Order for Return, asked for the number of prosecutions in the last ten years in each province in Canada and was told in effect that there were none recorded, or there weren't any available records on the subject. My information tells me in Manitoba and in Winnipeg that in effect there have been either no prosecutions for 10 years - I suggest there have been in the last 10 years thousands - not even hundreds but thousands of violations of this

section of the Railway Act, and I just wonder whether the Minister in conjunction with the Attorney-General shouldn't look into this, because he's supposed to be concerned about the flow of traffic, they have these counters up, they are in charge of building roads; you're in charge of building overpasses under certain conditions; you're in charge of building bridges, I assume, and many of these are for the benefit of getting around,the highway - railway problem. I think that there is a need, when we talk about this.

I 'm going to list one or two items because undoubtedly the Minister will say or others will say these are expensive propositions that you're putting forward, but so is a $2-1/2 million overpass. If that's a solution to train traffic, if we're supposed to put up overpasses everytime we have a serious problem with a railway then I suggest that that is an impossibly expensive solution and that there are cheaper solutions and better solutions. I also suggest that building overpasses doesn't solve the prob lem.

You'll solve the problem on Nairn Avenue but you'll not solve it several streets over, you'll not solve it half a mile over, you'll not solve it a mile over or two miles over. There's six or seven crossings in the area next to me represented by the Member for Kildonan, several crossings there and several in my own.

So I think that when the Minister is dealin g with this area -- and I just wonder whether or not he ever meets with the officials of the CPR; I wonder if he ever meets with the officials of the CNR or the Board of Transport; because if he doesn't he should, because there is a tremendous problem, not just for them but for you, and it's a

1834 March 20, 196.7 "(JIIIR, DOERN cont'd. ) .•..• two-sided problem. I think, for example, there is a need for more automatic equipment instead of just hav ing these X 's all over the place. I think in city areas there is a need for an increased expendi ture on automatic equipment with these arms that come down. I think that miles and miles of track in the city should be fenced. You can build industrial fences 6 feet high out of galva nized steel or whatever they are made out of, or wire, and I think - like in my own area -I think it should be fenced.

I have a major school, the Elmwood High and David Thompson Junior High, right beside the railway tracks; a community club right beside the railway tracks; and there are recorded instances that I have proof of, of children crawling underneath stopped trains to get to a community club. It's very dangerous, especially in an area where you have a tremendous amount of train traffic and a lot of children. I think people get in the way of railway tracks and I think that fencing would be beneficial to the railways and I think it would be beneficial to the public.

I think there is also a need for more power equipment on the railways. I am told by some that the CPR doesn't have power switches coming into some of the yards on their main entrances where the CNR does, so that they have to slow down to get into the yard, the front end brakeman jumps off, sprints ahead, throws a switch, in goes the train, throws a switch, jumps on the train. You know that's old -fashioned to say the least. Or that some of the automatic equipment is - the CNR seems to be fully automated but the CPR is still using a lot of block system controls. They don't have an automatic traffice controller.

And I think a very important thing, as I say to the l\Tinister, is the simple fact of enforc ing the present laws. This is not being done. Everybody passes the buck. The Metro people dont' want to touch it; the province is thinking about it; the Federal Government doesn't seem to want to do very much about it; the city doesn't seem to think it's their problem. Whose problem is this? This is one reason I raised this case with the Attorney-General four months ago. I am still waiting for an answer on a very simple problem, trying to establish a prece dent or at least get an answer on whose responsibility it is.

So I think, Mr. Chairman, that I'll bring my comments to a close right there, but simply say to the Minister - and I'd like to hear what he has to say on this - that I assume that rail ways are a very big headache for him when he comes to considering the flow of traffic and that I also think that building overpasses and so on is a much much too expensive solution.

If you want to spend $2-1/2 million on Nairn Avenue, which was probably necessary, for an equiva lent amount of money you could probably cover the city with automatic equipment, cover the city with fences, and cover the yard with power switches for the same amount of money and you would have a much speeded -up transportation system. MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, maybe I could make a comment or two, but really all of those comments really need to be directed to another authority which is either Metro or the municipality, whoever is the traffic authority over the street.

The Province of Manitoba has no jurisdiction over the arteries within any place in the Greater Winnipeg area. On the metropolitan street system we make a contribution but they have the authority. They are the authority over the streets. Some of the points that he makes are good, and while it is out in a different area I know he is interested, I don't know whether he was here when I indicated to him that approval had been granted for 55 controlled crossings on the provincial road system this coming year through out the province.

The enforcement lies between the Attorney-General and the various Police Forces throughout the area and the line of authority is there. Expropriation is the same thing; The Streets and Transit Division are the responsible authority for the expropriation, and anything that is done would be done by the Metropolitan Corporation. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a question there. When it comes to -- I mean there are crossings in the Metro area, granted, but I mean there are h\mdreds of crossings all around Manitoba.

Do you ever deal with the railway authorities to iron out problems or do you just simply let them go their separate way and you go your separate way. Don't you deal with them, or shouldn't you deal with them? M:R. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, my staff is meeting with the CPR and the CNR, I would say, probably monthly or oftener. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 41. MR. PETURSSON: May I ask the Honourable Minister a question? I want to take you back into St. George constituency and Ste. Rose. I have occasion from time to time to travel over

March 20, 1967 1835 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd.) the ferry road from Mulvihill across to the ferry and from the other side of the Lake -the Narrows up to Ste. Rose, and it seems to me somehow that the dust nuisance there beats the dust nuisance almost on any other provin cial highway. Whether it is the nature of the gravel that is put on it, limestone or what it is, but it penetrates every thing, and I just wondered whether there was any way in which the dust nuisances could be al leviated.

I know I wouldn't be the only one who suffered from it but everybody who travels over that road, particularly when there is heavy truck traffic as I know there is. MR . RODNEY S. CLEMENT (Birtle-Ru ssell): Mr. Chairman, I would just like a little clarification from the Minister on Highway 41 A: 7. 1 miles, it says, north Junction PTH 83 west of Snake Creek, second lift construction and gravel. Does this mean that they are going to do some more work on the piece of road that was constructed last year or is this an exten sion, say, from the end of where they worked down to approximately the Assiniboine River.

I'm not just too familiar with this -I know there was some work done west of 83 Highway. I was hoping this was a further construction and that this road would come out somewhere not too far north of the old Fort Ellis which would be quite a help, and perhaps another year the bridge would be built across the river. The other point is west of Binscarth and I think it is Provincial Road No. 478. There has been some considerable talk due to the amount of traffic from Binscarth to the Esterhazy Potash Mine. There has been a request made, I am sure, to have this road constructed.

Could the Minister say if he has anything on this particular project? MR . WEffi: Mr. Chairman, dealing with those two or three questions, as far as the Honourable Member for Wellington is concerned on dust, I would just like to remind him all that stuff he sees blowing away is good money. It costs money to haul it onto the road and it's as great a concern to us as it is to he or the people that have to swallow it. I might say that the only means of treating it that has been found to date is the use of calcium chloride.

We have been using it much more extensively the last year or two with good success in some areas. I can't say that the success has been consistent all over Manitoba but it has been real good in many areas. I think that if a causeway was there, if it's in there the traffic would increase to the point where it might merit calcium treatment or something for the amount of traffic there is. I really don't think that it does with the traffic that exists, with the ferry service that there is there.

The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell: 41A - second lift construction gravel means another lift of gravel on the road that was constructed last year, not an extension of the pro ject; and no, I can't add anything on the 478 Binscarth west at the present time. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I note that the Minister says that he can't consider cal cium treatment on the road, I think to the Narrows, because the traffic doesn't warrant it, so I assume that my honourable friend has some reasonably good traffic figures as to that road as compared to other roads, because he couldn't be able to come to that sort of conclusion without having those. When will he submit to the House the traffic figures on all the provincial roads in the province, Mr.

Chairman, so that we too can share with him in the decisions as to which roads have the priorities, which I presume are strictly based on traffic and need, and when I say need, I 'm referring to need of the population as a whole, not need of the partic ular representative who happens to represent the constituency at the time. MR . WEffi: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition is all wet again, because in the first place they are not based strictly on traffic counts, because --(Interjection) - Pardon?

No, on this one - and you might be interested to know that it is one of the areas that for the summer months, we know. We don't have to guess; we don't have to rely on traffic counts. We know the amount of traffic that goes all the way because we have people on the ferry. It's one of the few roads that we have in the Province of Manitoba that at the ferry crossing, durin g the summer months, we actually know the amount of traffic.

It's not a guess; it's not a two-day count balanced over the year on that one specific location the way it is on the others; and I might say that it's not just on counters that traffic volumes show up. Traffic volumes probably show up to a greater degree in maintenance expenditures than they show up at any other place, and quite frankly, the main benefit the Department of Highways gets out of traffic volumes is predicting the growth, so that they know what standard to build to when the construction comes up.

The cost of maintenance, either through snow clearing or through patrolling and gravel or through patching or something of that nature, probably dictates as much as anything else the priorities that have to be established in the road construction. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, on more than one occasion I have

1836 March 20, 1967 (MR. PATRICK cont'd.) presented a resolution to this House for an overpass and an interchange on Portage Avenue and Perimeter West, and now I see that work is progressing quite well in that area which I felt, and still feel justified in presenting the resolutions to the House at that time, because we did have many fatalities in that corner and also I believe that the volume of traffic was quite high. I wonder if the Minister can tell us when the interchange and the overpass will be completed? Will it be finished this summer or is this just a start and will continue for a couple of more years?

My other question is, and I believe I raised it before, the traffic between Headingley and the Perimeter Highway on Portage Avenue is going to be quite congested in the very near future when the two shopping centres and the centre is developed in that area and the very fast growth of the area. I wonder if the Minister would give any consideration to improving the extension of the road, which is I believe called Saskatchewan Avenue, from the Perimeter to Headingley. It would run parallel to Portage and is approximately I believe two miles from Portage north.

Now I think it would take a considerable amount of traffic off Portage Av enue because many trucks and traffic, instead of continuing Portage going to the Perimeter, they could cut off right across Headingley, go north to the Saskatchewan Avenue and continue - if they are using the Perimeter route that is. I am not asking the Minister to build a highway or pave it, but I think if we would get some gravel on that road it would improve conditions considerably because there is a lot of traffic there in the summer time, and you can only actually call it a dirt road at the present time.

So I am sure if it were upgraded a little bit and had some gravel on it, it would take an awful lot of traffic off Portage Avenue. MR. WEffi: Mr. Chairman, in answer to those two questions, I would anticipate the completion of the interchange at Portage Avenue this year and we can have a look at the other road that the honourable member mentioned. I know that it would serve a purpose if we can establish a priority for it. . . • . • continued on next page

March 20, 1967 1837 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to ask a question on speed limits. Could the Minister explain whether he has the authority to set speed limits on highways or do the federal authorities come into this; and secondly, can he in any way influence the speed of railway trains, either maximum or minimum or is that completely out of his hands? MR. WIER: Mr. Chairman, no I don't set the speeds on roads and highways in the Province of Manitoba.

The Highway Traffic and Motor Transport Board which is under my colleague the Minister of Public Utilities is in charge of highway speeds in the province and speeds of trains as they go through the province, I believe, are the responsibility of the Board of Transport Commissioners. They approve speeds at various times and varying places and I've known them to change some recently. The traffic authority in the area is the one that should be negotiating any desired changes. MR.

DOERN: Just on that- you didn't answer one part of my question which was on the Trans-Canada Highway and so on, does the federal people come into this, do they suggest speeds or are you just sort of - we set our own but look at the general picture. MR. WATT: I wonder if the Committee would just come to order for a moment, I wonder if the Honourable Member for Brandon would come down to the Chair. Mr. Acting Chairman, I wondered if I might have the indulgence of the Committee just to say a few words for a few moments. Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words on highways and provincial tr unk roads for a moment.

For quite a few years now there has been not too much construction going on in my constituency and I quite understand the Minister's position in this, that in the interests of the Province of Manitoba I can see that it was necessary to construct highways in the constituency of the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose and from Gladstone and from different portions of the province and so I have not said too much in the House in regard to the construction of highways in southwest Manitoba. However, Mr. Chairman, I wonder would you call order please for a moment. I thought I should speak, Mr.

Chairman, before the money was all gone; if it's not now. I was quite happy last fall to see construction work start on the provincial trunk highway No. 21 from No. 2 south through Hartney and towards the United States boundary; and I'm pleased to see that on this road program that we have 12 miles between the Honourable Member from Turtle Mountain and I north from the United States boundary. However, I was a little disappointed, Mr.

Minister that provincial trunk highway - no provincial road, if I can find it here - provincial trunk road 251, that is from 21 Highway west to 83, is not on the agenda this year for further hard surfac ing or for the beginning of hard surfacing. However, I am in hopes that probably in 1968 we may see some work out there.

I notice that we have some work planned- it says to "commence" in 1967 on No. 2 highway west from 83 to the Saskatchewan boundary and I'm just wondering what the Minister means by commence - If this is to dig a couple of shovel fulls out next fall or ..• I ask the support of the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party since I have been quietly abiding while he gets roads built, if he will not support me in getting the shoulders at least put on this road. Now if you don't object I'll go ahead a little into water conservation.

I want to say a few words, up and down the Pipestone Creek and Souris areas insofar as construction of dams in the Cromer area, the Gainsborough, the Jackson and the Antler, and while these are federal responsibilities, it is the responsibility of course of the Provincial Government to recommend what work should be done in that area and I'm urging the Minister now that we should proceed to bring pressure on the Federal Government to take some action down in that area.

I want to particularly say something now about the Oak Lake, Plum and Maple Lake areas, where considerable work and engineering has been carried out in the past couple of years, and I see some of the gentlemen up in the gallery from Water Conservation, and I would hope that early in this year that the surveys would be completed to the extent where work could be commenced in that area in, that is in drainage and water control. In that area unofficial figures show about approximately 20, 000 head of cattle depending on the hay and the marshlands there. The farmers in that area, Mr.

Chairman, are very worried about maintaining their cattle population there because of excessive flooding at times and because of drought at times. I don't think that anyone out there expects - although there are some farmers that would like to grow flax in the bottom of some of these lakes or areas around them - but for the most part the farmers there are looking not only for drainage but water control, that we may have drain age to the point where they can get their hay out in wet years and water control that will guarantee that there will be hay in the dry years.

Now I have been urging all the members in the Committee from time to time to make short

1838 March 20, 1967 (MR. WATT cont'd) •..• • speeches and to the point, so I better try and make an example my self right now. That is all I have to say, Mr. Minister; I hope to see considerable work done in southwest Manitoba in the coming year. MR . WEIR: Mr. Chairman, all I can say is I prefer to see him sitting down there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 41 passed; Res olution 42 ... • MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, there 's been considerable interest and activity regarding the dam on the Dauphin River to control the level of water on Lake St. Martin. I understand there are surveys under way at the present time.

What can the Minister tell us at this time; are there any prospects for this dam being built this year? As the Minister knows, this dam has far-re aching affects, it will pe rmit the fish from Lake Winnipeg to spawn in Lake St. Martin, I understand one of the finest spawning grounds in Wester Canada. Also it's of considerable value to the fishermen in that area who depend on their livelihood from fishing, and that llnder the present circumstances the water continues to drain right out of the Lake when the Fairford dam is closed.

It's vital that this level be maintained so that we'll have a constant level for the fish; it's also valuable from a wildlife standpoint and from trapping, so this body of water has a considerable value to everybody concerned. I wonder what prospects we have for getting this dam put in which would be of considerable value to the area? MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr.

Chairman, probably the Minister would like to revert to the practice that obtains on introduction of his estimates now that we have arrived at the second branch df them, and have some of us make representation so that he wouldn't be getting up and down on a question and answer basis.

I wish to return to the matter that was mentioned the other day by my honourable friend the Member for Gladstone and read to the Honourable Minister once again the statement that he made on page 1697 of Hansard where he says that "work" -- and I'm quoting now: "Work on the Whitemud Watershed is well under way" --( Interjection)-- Well, that's what my honourable friend said to the Honourable Member for Gladstone and the Honourable Member for Gladstone acceded to his request and I couldn't see that it changed the sense at all except in favour of my honourable friend from Glad stone, because I'll do just that, I'll start at the beginning of the paragraph: "Comprehensive planning", this is the start of that paragraph, "Comprehensive planning. for the ultimate development of water resources of the province will continue again in 1967.

It is expected that the plan for the Fisher River Watershed will be completed early in the new year and work on the construction program will: be put under way. Work on the Whitemud Watershed is well under way and in the new year it is planned to increase the activities into those watersheds having their upper reaches in the western esca rpment. " Mr. Chairman, I go back to part of a sentence before I started my quotation the first time and call your attention to the wording here .

"It is expected that the plan for the Fisher River watershed - the plan for the Fish er River Watershed will be completed early in the new year and work on the .construction program will be put under way. " My honourable friend the Minister makes a distinction in that statement about the Fisher River Watershed between the "plan" and "work on construction"; and then in the very next sentence he starts with the word "work" - which I would think we would take would be the same meaning from as in the previous sentence, "work on the Whitemud Watershed is well under way, " etcetera.

I want to suggest to my honourable friend that he re-word that-s tatement because I'm sure that he is aware that work beyond the planning stage, studying stage has not progressed whatsoever on the Whitemud Watershed. There have been a lot of studies, and I have no doubt that they are useful, Mr. Chairman.

There have been studies and there have been plans made and some of the plans that were made for tributaries of the Whitemud were supposed to be im plemented in this year's program but I am informed that the municipal officials got word just. recently that the work so far as construction is concerned was not going to be proceeded with this year. So we're back where we started except for the studies.

Now I know that any of my honourable friends who have seen the Whitemud River during its quiescent period will consider it to be quite a benign stream, it doesn't look at all troublesome or dangerous; but in the spring that little river, or when an extremely heavy rainfall comes, that little river can over flow and cause a great deal of trouble and it's been doing it for years.

It's been doing it during the time that our government was in office and we too made some studies and some plans and I would like to urge the Minister in recognition of the long- suffering nature of the people in that area and what they have had to put up with, that he make a spec ial effort to get them some work done. And let me once again propound, Mr. Chairman, and I don't attempt to charge anything for this advice at all, but let me once again renew my dictum that for goodness sake

March 20, 1967 1839 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd) ••..• let us remember that if you're going to do drainage start at the low end of the work; if you're going to do damming start at the headwaters.

And in this case I recommend both assistance to the draining by starting at the lower end of the river and working up; and I also recommend trying to hold the headwaters, which will not only conserve water that's beginning to be needed in a good many areas of the province but that it will alleviate the flood threats in the spring and in the time of these torrential rains that sometimes occur, and if they are on the steep slope of the Riding Mountains there they have just got to come down and that's all there is to it. I recall very vividly, Mr.

Chairman, that when we were in office that some of us tried our best to get the engineers to come up with a plan for installing some small dams, not huge ones but small ones, some place on the headwaters of those streams, and the reports that we got time and time again were that because they are shale banks and do not provide good founda tions, that it was difficult to build even small dams.

I know that some of us being laymen were inclined to disagree with the engineers of those days and to think that dams could be provided - and I noticed while you were talking about water conservation or alleviation of water problems, Mr.

Chairman, that you have the same kinds of difficulty up in your area -but since the time that we were talking about it, there has been a development there that I think gives us a lot of encouragement, because while the engineers decided that it was not feasible to build these small dams, couldn't get the foundations that would hold on that kind of subsoil, in the mean time our friends the beavers have gone in and have demonstrated that they can get their dams to stay.

Now surely - I know what a smart animal the beaver is, I have a great deal of respect for him, not only for his industry but for his ingenuity as well -but surely it is within the competence of our engineering staffs to do as well as the beavers do, and if the beavers can build dams on those headwaters, don't you think our engineers can? The beavers have demons trated they could and this is what we need, I am sure, on the Whitemud is a combination of dams .

It can't do the whole job but it can help to hold back both the spring freshets and the torrential rain, and at the same time the development of the channel, starting at the lower end, working at the upper end to hold the water back, at the lower end to improve the channel. I am not going to take any more time of the committee, Mr. Chairman, but once again I do say that this has been a long and difficult period for the people in that area.

I believe stu dies have been going on for a long long time and I suggest to the Minister that he - I won't hold it against him because I know that he didn't say this intentionally - but it appears to me that the way the wording was used that it indicates that some work has been done there.

Well I am urging that some work be done, that the plans and the programs be put into effect just as soon as possible, because I can state from personal experience in the area extending over a lot of years that it's most necessary, and I believe by a combination of the two types of work, work in the sense of getting some of these constructions implemented, that great benefit can result. That's my statement, Mr. Minister, and I'd be very very appreciative if something concrete could be done to alleviate this long standing problem. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, when we discussed the department's work under the Minister's salary, I mentioned the Hespeler project and also the Pembilier dam. At that time the Minister said we could deal with this under the item that we are now discussing. I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on that at this particular time. • • . • • • continued on next page

18 40 March 20, 1967 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, during the consideration of the Department of Agriculture estimates, as no doubt the Minister of Highways is aware , I raised the question of water pro blems as they rela te to the problem area around Lake Winnipeg, and it was suggested to me at that particular time that the proper time to debate the problems of water would be during the estimates of the Minister of Highways and Water Conserv ation, and of course since that time I, you might say, waited with some anticipation for a statement of policy from the M:.nister.

Needless to say, I am disappointed that there has not been a statement of policy to date. I was rather hopeful that the Minister could let the residents o:i the area know just precisely where they stand with regard to the water problems. People affected by the flood waters of the Bed River and Lake Winnipeg are indeed anxious to find out just what their position is.

Many of them have not been able to arop their land for the last number of years - some a year or two, some more than that - and they have been waiting hopefully that the government is going to give them some consideration or at least an answer as to whether or not there is some hope of government action.

I know I had a phone call the other day from one of the residents of the area telling me that they had written a letter indeed to the First Minister about a month ago and that they are still awaiting a reply , so if there is going to be some action taken in this area, I hope that government does give some indication so that these people can do some plan ning of their own. Surely it's only fair to ask for a statement of policy, or at least to either give them some hope or destroy any hope that they may have, because let's not kid ourselves, these people are sort of sitting on the fence wondering what to do.

They don't know whether they should think in terms of investing any more money in their bui ldings or in their land; they don't know whether they should buy seed or fertilizer or increase their cattle herds or what have you. They are simply confused. They felt six months ago that they would be hearing from the government insofar as policy with regard to the water problems. So I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the government has a responsibility.

They have re cognized their responsibility in that they have built a dike - they haven't completed the dike but they have undertaken to built a 25 mile dike in the area - which raises two q11estions in fact and that is:

(1) What are they going to do with the people left on the water side of the dike; and the other is, what are they going to do with the drainage problem created by the dike on the so-called dry side of the dike, because I think we are all aware that when you build a dike you are actually trapping a certain amount of natural run-off water behind it. No doubt the Minister may tell me that they will provide trap culverts and this type of facility to move the water out of the so-called protected side, but knowing the area as I do-, Mr.

Chairman, I feel that trap culverts are not the solution, in that if the water on the wet side of the dike is high, and it always seems to be in the last few years, that trap culverts will be of no benefit to the other side of the dike. I think this can be recognized by the Minister and there is a real problem, in fact, on both sides. Now it seems to me that if government didn't recognize some responsibility in the area they would have not undertaken to go ahead with this project, and I am sure the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, appreciates the fact that we are nearing the month of April and that these people in the area are very much concerned as to their position this coming spring. In the House the other day the Minister stated that he is satisfied from the flood forecasting people that Winnipeg and southern Manitoba is on pretty safe ground this year, that he doesn't think we are going to have a flood, but the people downstream are not sure.

They have had floods when Winnipeg was dry; they have had floods when southern Manitoba was dry; not because of a.general hig h water situation but because of a back-up of water during the ice break-up period. So the high water level insofar as some of these people are concerned is not the real key to it insofar as their immediate problems are concerned. The high water problems come sometime later on in the summer from the lake back-up, but the i=ediate concern in the area is what is going to happen during the spring break-up of the Bed Ri ver. So we have two problems actually.

These people along the Bed River, incidentall y , have been flooded several times in the last ten years and they have been compensated for property damage a number of times, and last year incidentally was one of them. We had sandbagging operations; we had evacua tion operations and so forth. We repaired their bui ldings after the flood waters had receded and so forth, but this was done because it was done in Winnipeg and it was done in southern Manitoba and it was a general picture. What is going to happen to these people this year if Winnipeg isn 1t flooded or threatened, if southern Manitoba isn't flooded.

March 20, 1967 1841 (MR. USKIW cont'd), •••• •• If they are the only small area that is affected, are we going to give them the same cons ideration as we gave them last year because of this gigantic problem? I think they are entitled to the sa me considera tion regardless of the number of people involved, and unfortunately history has it that when there were few in number , there was never any con sidera tion.

So I appeal to the Minister to take a good look at this problem and not look at it from the point of view as to whether or not this is a cr itical si tuation for all of Manitoba but to look at it from a human point of view and realize that whether it be a thousand people or whether it be fifty peop le, that the problem to those affected it very serious. It's an economic prob lem and it's a problem of disloca tion. These problems in this particular area, if I might add, date back to about 1948 and they have persisted, not every year but I am sure, as I mentioned, several times in the last ten or so years.

I notice in the estimates we have provisi on under the Ca nada-Manitob a ARDA agreement of something less than $2 million and I am wondering whether or not this money, or part of it, is alloc ated to the area for some form of relief or ass istance or program to protect these people. I am sure that if this is so that we would all be happy to hear about it, and I am wondering whether I might get an answer from the Minister. And if it isn't inc luded in this program, is it going to be included in the forthcoming agreement between Manitoba and Ottawa?

This is another answer that I am sure we would apprec iate knowing. One thing that I want to stress to the Minister is the fact that spring is around the corner, in fact it is here - (Interjection)-- Well, I am hopeful, yester day was a be autiful day - that if the government is going to give considera tion to protecting these people in the same manner which they did last spr ing, that they will make their intentions known very early so that the municipalities in the area ca n undertake to order their sandba gs , their polyethylene paper and pumping units and so forth.

I am s:.rre it isn't too early to suggest that we have some statement of policy with respect to this immedia te need. So, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to tie up too much debating time. The Minister is aware of my position since the es timates of the Department of Agriculture were tabled and there's no point in me repea ting what I sa id then. I think I was sort of in a somewhat emotional mood at that time -I don't have to repea t that performance - I'm only appealing to the Minister to give the consideration that is required. Thank you. MR. VIE LFAURE: Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to make a few comments also on water control and drainage. As the Minister knows , my cons tituency stretches from the Ontario border reall y right to the Red River, but the area I'm concerned about as far as water control is concerned is the area from the mouth of the Seine River into the Steinbach Municipality and then right down to the Red River.

So when you have this kind of a flow, you find that the water has to go through waterways which are contro lled by different people, and from the experience we had Last summer, and if I understand the plans of the department right, the provincial waterways are mostly constructed with a 15 yea r expectancy and three inch rain. However , when you have municipalities that have been fairly agressi ve and have quite a water control program, you find that quite often the water brought in through the main water ways is much more than expected and therefore creates prob lems.

Also, the fact that if water comes into the Red Ri ver, if you happen to have a high water level on the Red River at the same time as the water coming from the east, this crea tes a back-up situation which is reall y harmful to the farmers that are alongside these waterways. So what I really mean is that in my opinion, and I certainly don't pretend to be an engineer, that you will find that quite a few of these waterways sometimes do not serve the purpose after Let's say 6, 7, 8 or 9 years where they were expected to be able to be of use for at Least 15 years.

Now of course I was very interested in the statement by the Minister where he sa id that he would be paying a really close look to maintenance of existing drainage systems which I think applies to the si tuation in my area, because you will find that when this backing-up si t uation exists, the water that backs up on the land in this fairly Low-lying area around Niverville, Bothwell, Steinbach, west and so on, then it is extremely difficult to drain again.

Also on the same matter, I would like to bring one point that has been brought to my attention quite a few times during the last year and that is the matter of drainage alongside PR roads. Many of the municipal people tell me that they find it extremely difficult in having to go through a Lot of red tape where they are to make any improvements on the ditches along side PR roads , because then the problem is where to put the dirt that is to be excavated from these particular roads, In their opinion there is reall y -- they understa nd that it is a prob lem,

1841 March 20, 1967 (M R. VIE LF AURE cont'd) ••• �. it's not easy, b:.tt they figure that there is reall y too much red tape involved in getting the authority to do the work that is necessa ry alongside these roads . So these are the few points that I wanted to bring at this moment; MR. WEill : Mr. Chairman , if I may reply to a few of the remarks that have been made . To start with those of the Honourable Member for St. George, I regret to say that I can't hold out too much hope that there 'll be construction on the dam this year.

It's true surveys are going on, but I'm not in the pos ition to indicate that work is contemplated for this year on the Dauphin Ri ver. The Honourable Member for Lakeside brings up my remarks of the other night and I think he knows my intention in making the remarks. It may be that my English isn't very good. I've been accused on some occ asions of being stripped of a large part of my vocabulary when I get in a forum of this size and maybe it ca n be attributed to that. But it's true that the work that was co ntemplated within the statement, the par agrap;1 started out to discuss the planning

section of the department and it was intended that they should be rela ted to the plan" ning as it had been ca rried out. He provides me with assis tance from his long experie nce on the Whitemud, which I know is fairly practical experience, and I look askance at the gallery, and at the sa me time as I look up there I say I too have had some difficulty with engineers from time to time and no doubt will have more.

Maybe the Honourable Member for Lakes ide will provide me with a little of that Lakesi de hospitality which I've been accustomed to in the past from time to time a:1d take myself and some of my engineers out -i f by any stretch of the imagination we should be out of the House by the time the water is running - it might be a good time to go out and have a look at it and maybe if some of what he had to say didn't rub off on them it mig ht rub off on me, because I haven't got some of the same prejudices that seem to get built up in engineers as far as stabili ty and so on and so forth is concerned.

I'll be quite happy to look at it from that point of view and Pm looking forward to gaining a cer tain ed:1c ation out of the summer period this year. During the period that I have had the responsi bili ty for the depart ment the experience that I've been able to get so far, I must admit, has been rather limited, but Pm expecting to expand on that experience within the next few months if we are succes sful in terminating the sessi on in ti me. He talks about the beavers and maybe we could take a leaf out of Ottawa's book and put a few of them on the payro ll.

We haven't any horses that I know of, but maybe we could em ploy a few beavers and get this thing lined up and into operation. The Honour able Member for Brokenhead mentions the debate we had on agriculture and I regret to say that while recognizing the problem of which he spe aks, Pm still not in the posi tion to make the policy statement that I know he's waiting for and that I would like to be able to make , and I think that I have to s.sk for a little persevera nce yet in an effort to come to grips with this problem and see what ca n be done.

If it's of any sa tisfaction, the outlook that I get from the department, their predictions are that Lake Winnipeg will not be as troubles ome for us this year as it was last year. The levels are not anticipated to be as high and I'm only hoping that their· predictions can remain and that the prec ipitation will not increase to the degree that they'll be made unrealistic . He talks about whether or not it can be included within the forthcoming agreement. Well, all of the things that ca n be included within that are reall y unpredictable at this stage of the game.

As far as any ru:::sis tance this year, all I can say is · that the members of the department will be in direct contact with the municipal people as time goes on to attempt to be re ady should there be difficultie�: in the area. I apprecia te very much, Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the Honourable M'3mber for La Verendrye and the spirit with which they were given beca use I do know of some of the problems that he's got there, although not in detail I must admit, but it's part of his area that I've been feeling that maintenance was one of the big concerns • .

Now possibl y I could go into the projects for this year, the capi tal projects , if that was the wish of the Committee, and I think the best indication that I can give you of our attitude to it this year are in the provincial waterways estimates for this year. In 1966-67 there was schedules $650 ,0 00 for maintenance and $1, 289, 000 for construction.

In the 1967-6 8 es timates that are before us, the ba lance of that has just been reversed and $1, 040 , 000 is what is sched uled for the maintenance of existing drains in an effort to move further ahea d in increasing the ca pacities and increas ing the effectiveness of our existing investment in drains in the provinc e, and construction totalling $665, 000 on the ordinary provinc ial waterways program.

March 20, 1967 18 43 (MR. WE m cont'd) ••••• In the provincial waterways program, the ca pital items that are marked there are the work on the lower Ra t Ri ver, Tourond Creek and St. Adolphe Coulee; reconstruc tion of D-20 drain or a portion of it; some work on the Manning Canal; some work on the lower Seine River in the R. M. of Ste.

Anne; some work - seed ing and clean-up of 1966-67 works in the Shannon Creek floodway ; some work on the Kronsgart drain - reconst ruction of some of that area; some reconstruc tion work on the Forester drain; some see ding and steriliza tion and clean-up of 1966-67 works on the 11-A drain - if these things don't mean anything to some of you, don't feel ba d because they don't mean too much to me either at this stage of the game, so I'm giving you the benefit of what I have on a piece of pa per here - some work on the King drain; some work on the Lot 16 drain - I think I should cut this one but it's mentioned here, from some of the treatment I've had; some work on the Oak and Maple Lakes in the southwest part of Manitoba is listed, the start of a major project in that area; and some work in Sturgeon Creek and adj acent drains ; some work on the Pioneer drain in the Municipality of Siglunes and Eri.ksdale ; some work on the Big Grass Marsh on the Gopher Creek; some work on the Big Grass River and Birnie Creek; and some work in the Municipa lity of Cornwallis on Willow Creek as being the other ones.

On the maintenanc e, the money is all fairly well grouped in large areas and I don't think that any good purpose could be served from trying to discuss that because it'll likely have to change five times from the type of the season that we have and the works that we're able to do in various areas this year. --(Interj ection)-- Didn't hear Whitemud - no, that's right, but I haven 't talked to you yet about the planning sec tion. And then under the ARDA

section there is a total of $1, 800, 000 provided and this is intended for work on the Hespele r Floor dway and the Dead Horse Creek and the Upper Hespeler, and possi bly in the R •••• Coulee and on the Tobacco Creek floojway, on the Long Lake drain - that's one I think you probably heard the name of, the Honourable Member for Lakeside; and Sturgeon Creek and the Cen tre Co lony drain; the Stonewall-R ockwood drain and the west branch Grassmere on the lower Interlake and the Fish Lake No. 2 proj ect, the comple tion of that, and beginning of work on the Fisher Ri ver.

Now all of these require the co-oper ation and approval of the Government of Ca nada for ARDA and we hope and contemplate that we will be able to work to get these projects coming in and scheduled along with this year's work. That gives a rough run-down of the ca pital projects that are anticipated this year. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairm an, I don't think the Minister did answer spec ifically one question and that is dealing with the question as to whether or not a small area if it is flooded will be given the consi deration just the sa me as if we had a general flood picture, or will they not consider an area as has been the case irt the past if it's a very small area? MR. WEm: Mr. Chairman, I think that we'd have to have a look at the area. These are works and assistance that are done in emergencies and what happens at the time very largely dictates the action that is taken.

I don't think that I could give a hard and fast answer on that right at the moment; it would depend - I think that you would find the staff of the depart ment providing all of the assistance that they could in the line of any emergency that might appear. MR; USKIW: Mr. Chairman, if I might just go back to the si t·..1ation where we had a prepara tory time period in anticipation of a flood problem. The Department went to work - the government made provision for sa ndbags and polyetholene and so forth.

Now with a break -up situation where you have a backing up of water you may have only one day's notice before the. flood waters actually hit your doorstep you might say.

There will be no time for consid era tion at that particula r moment, so that the only way to assure that there is protection in this parti cular area north of Se lkirk - and that is on both sides of the river, in the cons tituency of Se lkirk and of course in the cons tituency of Brokenhead - because there won't be time to give it cons ideration, because it usually happens within a 24-hour period, that a decision will have to be made before then and this is why I posed the question. You can't study the situation from a long-range point of view as you ca n with the general picture across Manitoba. MR. WEm: Mr.

Chairman, I think it is fair to say that there is a fairly large supply of the materials on hand left over from last year and available at a moment's notice should an emergency of that size come about; if we were to come across an emergency similar to what we had last year of course it would just be a start; but for something of the type that the honour able member is spe aking about I think that we have reserves that within a 24-hour peri od could be made avai lable.

184 4 March 20, 1967 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister whether this is the place for discussi on of the costs of the flood, of a year ago; is this the are a? MR. WEIR : Mr. Chairman , it's as good a place as any, although I must point out that all of the costs ar.e not in yet, to know exactly what they are. A roundhouse figure - if you would be int erested in a roundhouse figure of what is anticipated and what we see at the present time - would be probably in the neighborhood of $1 5 million. MR.

DOERN: I would just like to ask a question or two here and perhaps this would be more suitable for an Order for Re turn since you don't have this information. I have been told by both people who worked on the flood and by professi onal engineers who also had some part to play in the project that in some areas of the Metro are a, in some regions, if you take the cost of the flood and divide it by the number of houses which benefitted, that the cost runs to $5 to $10, 000 per home, and that in other sec tions of the city that this cost might run to the neighborhood of $20 to 25, 000.

Does the Minister have any idea of how many houses were protected, or whether costs actually were this high, of the order of $10, 000 per home, and even more in some cases, or is this not yet available ? MR. WEIR: Well, Mr. Chairman , I think it is pretty difficult to provide that informa tion because of the way many of the costs are grouped.

Maybe with a lot of work it could be dug out but you have got to remember that money was spent on streets in repairing them after heavy equipment had been over them, there was such a variety of work had to be done in a short time that my guess is that the bookkeeping and the cost analysis that is ca rried out during a time of an emergency when all of the staff are working almost double shift, and some of them even greater than that, may leave something to be desired. I don't have anything broken down in that kind of a fi gure.

If the honourable member tried to figure out an Order for Return attempting to get the areas of concern that he had, I'd do my best to try and get what information I can. MR . DOERN: A final question. You say this will cost in the neighborhood of 15 million. Ca n you tell us approximately when this report will come out and can you tell me offhand how much the 1950 flood cost ? Do you have any ide a of comparative costs ? MR . WEIR : No, Mr. Chairman I haven't.

I wasn't around in 1950 and really a large part of this was taken over before I beca me responsible for the Department and I'm not entire ly famili ar with all of the details. Some of the cost s for instance have yet - that we will be con sidering a cost of the flood, for instance diking in St. Jean, Morris and Letell ier - is yet to be spent for next year; the Flood Review Board hasn't made their final report yet and things of that nature, so that really we haven't got any total figures that we ca n sit down and work out. MR . SHOEMAKER : Mr.

Chairman, it's quite evident from the answer that my honour able friend gave to the Honourable Member for Lakesi de that there is no plans in the depart ment for this year to erect dam s on the esca rpment of the Ri ding Mountain Watershed. Now as I understand it, and as you pointed out yourself, Mr.

Chairman , this is one of the areas I be lieve that PFRA made the feasibi lity studies of a dam on the Birnie Creek, in particular some -- well they have been at it I believe , for some 18 months -- and a letter. that I have from my honourable friend dated May 5th - well this particular one isn't from him, it is written by the former minister - suggests that a report is expected to be available this summer concer ning the feasi bility of construc ting a dam in the vicinity.

Has the report been made avai lable and has this government made any reco mmendations to the Federal Government in respect to the construction of a dam in this particular are a? Because I unders tand that the engineers, the PFRA engineers have completed their studies and I would expect that now the next move is up to my honourab le friend to make reco=endations of the Federal Government, following their findings in the area.

I know that there are several farmers in the area who would be interested to know when a dam might be built in the area so that they can plan their long-range farming programs , because presently they don't know whether to proceed to summerfallow or proceed - what crops to put in or anything else -if they don't know what land they may have availabl e for them next year and the following years. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman , it cer tainly isn't contemplated for this year and I am not aware of all of the recommendations that may have been made prior to my time.

I will cer tainly look into it, One thing I know is that we may not get all of the works that we would like to have done by PFRA , that we would want done all at the same time . I think it is also fair to say that there appears to be some cha nges pending in Ottawa between departmental responsi bil ities and some of the circumsta nces that now exist may change in the fore seeable future so that I am really not in a position to make any firm statement in that area.

March 20, 1967 1845 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1--passed; 2--passed; (

b) Engineeri ng. 1--passed; 2-passed (

b) passed (

c) Operations: 1 (a)--passed; (b)--passed. Pardon me. 2--passed; 3-passed. (c)- passed. Reso lution 42 passed. Re solution 43 --passed. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, on item 7 I see there was $11 mil lion plus spent last year on this item and there is nothing appropriated this year. Could he just explain what the si tuation is ? MR . WE IR: Mr. Chairman, I have twice alre ady. The money will be found - the cor re sponding item will be found in capital this year , the money is being borrowed rather than coming out of current revenues.

The total bill, if you would like a bit of a breakdown on that, I think I ca n give it to you quickly, would be $17 , 525, 000 - total, $17, 525, 000 - that 1s pro vincial and federal - with the provincial share being es timated at $9, 550, 000 and we alrea dy have an unexpended authority of $3 million within the Water Control ca pital es timates, so there will be a new ca pital authority requested of $6 1/2 mil lion to complete the proj ect this year. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chair man, just one more point. I notice that Lake Manitoba flood protection is mentioned in this item.

Could you indicate what is intended in connection with that? MR. WEIR: Perhaps the Portage divers ion would be the item in there although really this is just a title that is used from year to ye ar and continued over in the estimates so that anything might fall within it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if we might now have a motion to Committee rise. HON. DUFF RO BL IN (Premi er)(W olsel ey): ••.••• finished with the Department of Highways, Mr. Chairman . MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, perhaps before moving that Committee rise the House would permit me to make three announcements. 1.

The Agriculture Committee will meet tomorrow morning at 9 o'c lock in room 254. 2. Law Amendments Committee will meet to morrow morning at 10 o'c lock in room 254. 3. I unders tand there have been discussi ons among members of the House with respect to the Thursda y sitting of the House prior to Good Friday and I understa nd there is some agreement that we should sit at 10 o'c lock Thursday morning until 12:30 on government business and then from 2:30 until 5: 30 on government busi ness Thursday and then adjourn at 5:30 in order to permit those members that wish to get out to their home consti tuency to do so.

If that has general agreement I would be prepared to recommend that course to the House and move the adjournment Thursday night at 5:30 rather than at 10 o'c lock. I move the Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Ca ll in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a cer tain reso lution and directed me to report the sa me and ask le ave to sit again. IN SESSI ON MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Springfield that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote dec lared the motion ca rried. MR.

LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer that the House do now adjourn. MR . SPE AKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declar ed the motion ca rried and the House adjourned until 2:30 o'c lock Tuesday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-78
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 78.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c278d13b4922b6320a38b8a353b129430f303e3d

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