VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, HAY 30, 1983 NO. 50

.... May 30, 1983 Tape 2680 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for the Mr. Speaker, we have not had an opportunity to hear very much from the Minister of Health (Mr. House) recently about the situation in our hospitals a·s a result of the cutbacks which are going to have to be imposed as a result of the government's failure to provide them with enough money to enable them to continue to operate at the levels they had hitherto reached. So I have got one or two questions. MR.

CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: Ask sensible questions, now! Whether my friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) thinks they are sensible or not is another story. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder - if only sense lay in his mind. Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Health- I cannot ask the member for St. John's North because he is not in the Cabinet,and little chance of it ever again, no matter which side is in - let me ask the Minister of Health if he would be so kind as to tell us whether he has succeeded in arranging a staggering of the hospital bed closures which we are going to experience here in St.

John's during the Summer months? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, some time ago, of course, just after the Budget was presented, the hospitals felt that they did not have enough. They were given a 12 per cent increase over last year, but they were looking for a considerable amount more, as a matter of fact a 24 per cent increase. vle could only give the kind of funding we have in relation to what 5693

May 30, 1983 Tape 2680 PK - 2 MR. ROUSE: our income was and we gave a 12 per cent increase. At the time they said to us let us have the amount of money early enough in the year so that we can put our programmes in place and try to stagger the closures, if we have to have any,over a period of time. This, of course, 5694

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2681 MJ - 1 MR. HOUSE: was not only in relation to the hospitals in St. John's, but also in relation to hospitals all across the Province. What has happened in that period of time is,of course,the hospitals have been working on their budgets, they did get together here in the city and, of course pretty,well all of the downtime or the closures will be staggered over a three month period beginning in June through to September. The extent of that will be made known by the boards as these cutbacks take place.

We ask that they look at spreading it over the year and they felt that,because of the general patterns of hospital operations throughout the years, Summertime has been slow-down time because it is a time when doctors usually take their vacations, it is a time also when the staff like to take their vacations,and it is time when people do not want to have elective surgery done. so all of that combined indicates that the best time to close down the hospitals would be in that three month period. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle . . MR.

ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, simply because in all the bafflegab chere was no hard information. Let me then ask the Minister of Health (Mr. House) if he will tell us the greatest number of beds that will be closed at one point during the Summer in the four hospitals here in St. John's,which not only are the basic acute care· centres for the St. John's catchment area, Mr. Speaker, an area which extends on the entire Avalon Peninsula,excluding only the areas served by the Carbonear Hospital, but also,of course,these hospitals serve as the basic referral centres for the entire Province.

I believe the jargon word in the trade is tertiary treatment centres . 5695

May 30 , 1983 Tape No . 2681 MJ - 2 MR . ROBERTS : Could he tell us,please, ho w many beds are going to be closed at maximum during the Summer period? MR . HOUSE: MIL SPEJ\KP.R (Russell) : MR . HOUSE: Mr. Speaker . The hon . the Minister of Health. ~·r. speaker, I do not have all the details. I might just point out that we de~ the Health Sciences Complex as the main crisis centre of the Province and for the adult hospitals it is deemed to be the tertiary care ho spital and the Janeway, of co1•rc,p is the tertiary care centrP fnr children .

J\t the peal< time , v1hich would be August month as far as J can gather , in the vicinity of around 160 beds in the three adult hospitals \'lill be closed . MR . ROBERTS : Mr . Speaker . 5696

May 30, 1983 MR. SPEAKE.R (Russell): Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Tape 2682 EC - 1 The hon. the member for the Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm that in the month of August - take his month - there will be fifty-eight beds closed at the Grace, there will be 69 beds closed at St. Clare's and there will be forty-four beds closed at the Janeway and between thirty and forty beds closed at the General?

And if he confirms that, as he will have to because the figures, I suggest, are accurate, then would he tell us how 215 beds out of 1,400 - let him tell us first how 215 beds squares with his 150 because the total I have just read is about 215. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I did mention,when I made my statement,specifically the three adult hospitals, I said in the vicinity of 160 beds. I did not mention the ,Janeway. I do not have the figures for all of them riCJht hE>xe with me new. MR. ROBERTS: I gave you the figures for all of them,'Wallace'. Those are the figures. MR.

HOUSE: Well, if you gave them to me, you gave them to me - MR. ROBERTS: That is right. MR. HOUSE: - but I .said that I do not have them before me. I said roughly 160 beds in the adult hospitals here in the city, so that is pretty close to your figures. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to argue with the minister here, others will do that at other times. Can the minister,then,accepting that 5697

May 30, 1983 Tape 2682 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS : of the four ba sic hospitals there will be 215 beds c!osed at peak out of approximately 1,400 beds, lvhich is 15 per cent of the beds, in rough arithmetic about one-seventh , can he tell US' whether in his opinion, as the Health minister , the health services will be able to fu nction adequately here in St . John's doing without 15 per cent of the beds for,in some cases, periods up to three or four months? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Minister of Health . MR . HOUSE :_ Mr .

Speaker, from what I am getting andthe general information I have , that particular figure that the hon . member mentioned , and it was around the vicinity of 111hat I have been talking about, is for August month and that is the peak month . The other two months will be lower than that particular amount according to the information I have in the department . MR. ROBERTS : No , that is not - MR . HOUSE : I do not have it specifi cally because I do not have right before me the exact number of beds . Now, 15 per cent of the beds 1 the 5698

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2683 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: question is do I think it is going to be adequate to take care of all of the services that are necessary. Mr. Speaker, up until a couple of years ago, every year just around about this time we pretty well had the same kind of downtime as a result of our inability to recruit people. The only difference this year is the fact that we have downtime because their budgets are not sufficient to keeping the beds open throughout the year. I am not able to say that services will be adequate during the peak period.

I have been advised by the hospitals themselves they they will certainly take care of the emergent care, the emergencies, and they say there could be some problems. I acknowledge that possibility there might be some problems, but we have put in place a monitoring committee that will keep us advised from time to time, will advise me from time to time if there is any negative impact on quality and I will await that, I am going to depend on that advice, Mr. Speaker, and I am hopeful that there will be no negative impact. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member for the Strait I do not know whether it is a supplementary or a new question. I submit it does not matter, if it is acceptable to Your Honour, because I think my colleagues are letting me have first run at the Question Period today. It is one of the few pleasures of there only being eight sitting on Your Honour's right here. Now, Mr. Speaker, to came back to the minister again, let me ask him if he would care to confirm or deny - because I cannot give him information 5699

May 30, 1983 Tape No . 2683 so - 2 MR . ROBERTS : as a

preamble to a question,I have to qo about it this way- would he confirm or deny that forty -four of the 221 beds at the Janeway will be closed for a four month period , that fifty -eight of the 317 beds at the Grace will be closed for the period bet\veen May 20 and and September 6, and that sixty-nine of the 325 at St . Clare 's will be closed from June l to August J]? We noted in each case, Mr . Speaker, all of these beds will be closed for at least three months and that at the General there will be between thirty and forty bed at minimum closed during the Sununer .

If he can confirm that or deny it , that would be phase one . Assuming he conf irms it, becau se I assure him that I am told on good authority these are the correct figures , then would he square that with his statement that we will only have this 15 per cent closure for one month? If fact, I suggest to him, Mr . Spea ker , that 15 pe r cent of the beds in these four hospital s will be closed for at least three months . 5700

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2684 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, generally the answer I gave before is correct, that the peak month for closures will be August, That is the information that I have ~ot. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HOUSE: got. MR. ROBERTS : MR. HOUSE: The information is wrong then. Well,that is the imforrnation that I have Okay, I accept that,but it is wrong. If the hon. member has better information he can put it on the table. I can get the information that I have qot and the information carne to us no more than a week aqo. MR. ROBERTS: Mine game today. MR.

HOUSE: Well 1 there may have been a chanqe over a week. But the point is 160 beds, the peak month is August. I was trying to figure out the numbers you were adding up, but you were mentioning 69 at one. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HOUSE: They will all be closed for three months. So, Mr. Speaker, the peak month is Auqust, ~he ~aneway is for three months, whatever they are doing is a three month period, and you mentioned that there are 44 beds there,I think. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, 44 out of 220. MR. HOUSE: I have confirmed it is in the vicinity of that amount. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour. I am not here to debate ~~th the minister but I will say to him that my information carne as of today, DR. COLLINS: It came from where? 5701

May 30 , 1983 Tape No . 2684 NM - 2 MR . ROBERTS : it came from the hosoitals . Mn. !lOOSE: : Can you nn•:10 the pennl P? MR . ROBERTS: I will qive the minister the names privately, outside ~te House , yes . And it came perfectly aboveboard . l-7e are not Cloinq what some may think - DR. wLLINS : !"lhat about its acc\·racy? MR . ROBERTS : It came from the administrators, or from the assistant administrators , that level of people within the hospitals. And just for the benefit of the minister, 44 of the 221 at the Janeway for four months - l1R . HOUSE : Three months . MR . ROBERTS : Four months.

The General , 30 to 40 beds on a floating level; the Grace,58 beds closed from May 20 to September 6, which is more than three months; and St . Clare's. 69 beds from June 1 to August 31, which is of course three months . DR . COLLINS : fiqures? MR. ROBERTS : Are you absolutely certain of these I am passinq 5702

May 30, 1983 Tape 2685 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: on the information I am given. Unlike the minister, I am certain of them 1 yes. I am as certain as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is of his Budget figures and I will bet my pnedictions are going to be better than his are on the record. DR. COLLINS: the projections, MR. ROBERTS : My predictions are based on so are your figures projections? Mr. Speaker, mine are based on the information which I have.

Now they have to be projections because, of course, we are talking of the future. the minister may not have understood the difference between being projective and retrospective. I will give him outside of the House the names of the people who supplied this information, I have no problem with that at all. Of course, it did not come in any confidential way; in fact, it should be ~s public as possible. At least 215 beds are going to be closed for at least three months. MR. NEARY: He is just trying to throw you off the track. MR.

ROBERTS: Well,it will take better than the Minister of Finance to throw me off the track. Mr. Speaker, let me come back to the Minister of Health again. He obviously had no success with his efforts to have the hospitals stagger their closures because they are all closing them for at least three months.

Can he tell us,please,whether the hospitals have concurred with his view - I am not talking about what his officials say; I think I know what they say, but that is another matter - have the hospitals concurred with the minister's view that the closure of this number of beds for this period of time will not seriously affect the level of services offered to people both in this city and in the Province? Because again , as the 5703

May 30, 1983 Tape 2685 PK - 2 l~. ROBERTS: minister would confirm, these beds affect the whole Province, not just the St. John's hospital catchment area. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: 11r. Speaker, wnen we ~et do\m to the numbe~ of beds from month to month, the statistics I have, of course, were recent statisitics that were garnered,and as I said1I do no';; have them exactly right here before me, but I do know that the peak month \·las August and that \vas in the vicinity of 160-odd beds, and 44 at the Janeway. I am quite clear on that particular one. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think somewhere along the line there has been some kind of statements being made that I have do..,tnplayed the fact that this is going to have an impact on health care. I have kept on stating from day one that we do not know if this is going to have an impact on health care. We are of the opinion that it is not unlike what had happened in previous years. t can tell the hen. member 5704

May 30, 1983 Tape 2686 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: and the people in these various hospitals that two years ago there was a lot more down time and closures as a result of a shortage of nurses than we have now. But the point of the matter is I am saying, yes, we may have some problems, I do not know. Nobody can tell me we will or we will not, but they advised me that they are going to be able to take care of emergencies, of emergent problems and they say that they are a little afraid that there may be some impact on quality.

Well, what I have asked them to do, or what we have put in place there is a monitoring committee made up of the Hospital Association, the Medical Association and the Department of Health to advise us if there is any negative impact and we wil~ be looking at each case as we are advised. I met with a number of the hospitals, not only here, I met with board chairmen in various other parts of the Province, anu they cannot say, Well, it is going to be terrible. They are saying it is going to be tight and I said, 'Well, we will try to deal with the matters as they arise.' MR. ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The bon. the member for the Strait Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister tell the House - and it should be noted that he did not say specifically whether or not the hospitals had concurred in his view; I take it from his answer that the hospitals have not concurred in his view - but can the minister tell us whether the monitoring committee of which he speaks has made any report to him to express their concern with respect to the proposal to close at least 15 per cent of the beds 5705

t-tay 30, 1983 Tape 2686 EC - 2 MR . ROBERTS: in the St . John 's basic hospitals for at least three months? MR . SPEAKER (Russel l): The hon. the Minister of Irealth . MR. ROUSE: Mr . Speaker, the beds have not been closed as yet. There has been some concern expressed by a spokesman for the f.1edical Association . MR. NEARY: It is the monitoring committee we want to know about. MR. HOOSE: Mr . Speaker, I will get around to it .

I chose my way of ans...,erin g. •rhe monitoring committee have been meeting, they have met a couple of times. 'rhey have not met to discuss any of the specific problems because none of the hospitals have taken any of the actions yet that they have notified us they t-till be taking . All they have met to discuss in the pattern that they will follow, so they have not specifically come to me yet .

They have met with some of my officials who are members of the committee to set their modus operandi, how they will operate when the bed clc.sures go into effect and the cuts and the layoffs. so specifically, they have not made any recommendations as yet . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle . 570 6

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2687 MJ .,.. 1 MR. ROBERTS : Thank you, Sir. That, of course, is just another way of saying, Mr. Speaker, that after the damage is done the government will try to correct it. Now, let me ask the minister whether he has caused to be made or whether to his knowledge there has been made a study to show the effect upon the medically needy people- and I use'medically needy,' that is not a financial measure it,is a measure of medical need - upon the medically needy people in this Province of these closures? And I am only talking nhout St.

John's, Another . day we will get on to what this policy is going to do outside St. John's,but let us talk of the St. John's hospitals because they are the base hospitals for the entire Province· Has there been a study made? Has the minister caused one to be made? In other words,does he know 1 and,if so ,how does he know that these hospitals can carry these cuts into effect, 15 per cent for at least three months 1 without serious damage being caused to the health of people who need hospital care? MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Bealth, MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member is asking me if we have done a survey of the people in the Province who have medical needs, the answer is no. I think that would be a major study we would have to be put in place here. The only study we have put in place is a royal commission to look into the costs of operating hospitals and, of course,they are getting underway to carry out their duties now and hopefully they will have that available to us by February of 1984. Each of the hospitals, Mr. Speaker, does have some knowledge of waiting lists, they upgrade these and update them from year to year.

I have not heard any hard and 5707

May 30, 1983 TaPe No . 2687 MJ - 2 MR. HOUSE: fast figures of ~ate, the last one I did hear was one from the Health Sciences and there was something like 700 or 800 at that time who were on waiting lists for various things,but I guess that improved from about a couple of thousand two or three years ago .

So it is very difficult to answer that question , if we have assessed the medical needs, because waiting lists are not very accurate predictors of what the needs ar~ because, in a lot of the cases of waiting lists,when you go to call on the people who are on waiting lists they do not need the procedure or they do not respond to the call . So, no, Mr . Speaker, we depend on the hospit~s to have that information . These boards are the ones who are operating and they know the numbers of people who are on waiting lists . MR . ROBERTS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. the member for the Thank you, Sir . Of course,the minister is saying he does not knO\.,, and then he is saying that the hospitals have made these cuts but of course he would have to 5708

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2688 so - 1 MR. ROBERTS: go on to admit that the hospitals are making the cuts only because the minister has told them they must make cuts. 1t is like a man being told he is going to lose both legs and an arm nargaining only to lose one hand instead. That is really what has been happening. Can the minister tell us what the occupancy rate is for these four hospitals in St. John's over a twelve month period? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I do not have that inforrnation,but the occupancy rate in these hospitals are reasonably high, I guess .Jl ) l:o about flS per cent occupancy. I do not want to be held to that particular percentage because it may vary one or two percentage points eith.er way. Yes, it is reasonably high in these hospitals. But again, Mr. Speaker, of course, last year there was down­ time, the year before last there was downtime so perhaps it is not quite so much in these previous years as this year. But one of the things about it this year, it is better organized, the dmmtime. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, of course, it is better organized, it a desperation measure. Can the minister tell us whether there has ever been downtime on this scale, and 1if so, could he explain, Mr.

Speaker, if he would be so kind, how it is that a hospital which has been given 12 per cent less than it says it needs to operate on the same level as last year, a figure which took into account any down- time there may have been last year, can now in his opinion, for whatever it may be worth, carry on with significantly less money and yet still have some more downtime? I mean, that is just sheer nonsense. The minister cannot really 5709

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2688 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: believe it, I have too much credit for his intelligence. Can the minister tell us, Mr. Speaker, when the monitoring committee comes into him and tells him, as it will, as it must, that the hospitals are suffering, that medically needy people are not getting treatment because of this 1 that extra money will be made available to them to enable them to resume operations at a normal level? 5710

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2689 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: talking about Mr. Speaker, the hon. member keep~ cutbacks. I just want to point out, to keep the record straight that there was an increase of 12 per cent. There was an increase of $10,.000 per bed in the hospitals last year, that is what the figure works out to, over the previous year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we said earlier in the year that the EPF cutbacks had been way higher than we had anticipated, the Opposition, and I believe the hon. member himself, sain you could not he cut back from what you had, something like tl:at, that you got 8 per cent more than you had. That is exactly what we qat, 8 per cent more than we got last vear,and the hospitals wanted - I do not think they needed it - 24 per cent more than last year.

We gave 12,and if we had kept abreast with the federal government they would have had $6 million less, or thereabout. so,you know,when you are savinq there are cutbacks ,let us say what is cut back. We hnve not cut back, we have given a 12 per cent increase but it was not '"hat they w<mted. And I said, "We wanted 20 per cent from the federal government, too", and you said, "Well, you cannot be cut back from what you did not have." So, Mr.

Speaker, I think,you know,with the way the econr>JTl" was last year and the loss of $25 million, or thereabouts from the EPF programmes, we would have had, had they kept their side of the bargain, because our programmes, Mr. Speaker, were predicated on EPF programmes a few years ago 1 and they have been cut back. So let us keep the record straight, it was a 12 per cent increase. 5 711

May 30 , 1983 Tape No . 2689 NM - 2 MR . HOUSE : Now, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the mnnit:nrino committee , I am not going to say ~.o1hat is going to happen . !iben the monitoring committee starts reporting to one we will deal with the matter as they report . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle . MR . ROBERTS : Thank you, Your Honour , That, of course. is locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen, to mix the metaphore. Mr .

Speaker, would the minister confirn the governnent's position is that the hospitals did not need a 24 per cent increase to enable them to contL,ue to offer services at the same level this year as they did last year, and 1 assuming he confirms that, because he just sai d that was the ca se, could he tell us what level of increase the hospitals needed this year to enable them to continue to carry on? You know 1the min~ster, Mr. Speaker, it must be said, is in the position of a gen~leman who killed his oarents and then sought mercy from the court on the grounds he ~~an orphan.

The hospitals are getting more money 5712

M9-y 30, 1983 Tape 2690 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: than last year, true, but they are not getting enouqh to enable them to continue to o~fer services at the same level. Can the minister put some numbers of it instead of the bafflegab which he is trying to take refuge in? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The bon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member perhaps bafflegab is the best he can under3tand, he i9 so used to it. I said I doubt if the hospitals needed a 24 per cent increase. As ·a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, that would have been somewhere in the vicinty of $67 million over last year.

As a matter of fact,I believe one of the spoksmen for the Hospital Association has been saying they could have carried on the same level of services within the vicinity of $12 million,which is considerably les~ than an ex~ra $34 million. Taking that as the . particular figure, it would look to me as if we are funding them between 96 ol 97 per cent of the total that they think they can get by with. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Is the minister saying- I want to be sure, because this is an astounding revelation - is the minister saying that the amount of money which the government has made available this year to operate the hospitals- which,I agree with him,is more in dollars than last year; it is more absolutely and less relatively, if the minister can understand those concepts - is he saying that the amount of money made available to the hospitals is sufficient to enable them to continue to operate at the same level as last year?

If so, why are we going to have 15 per cent of the beds closed in the base hospitals of the Province for a period of three months? MR. WARREN: MR. TULK: 5713 He cannot explain that. Explain that now!

May 30, 1983 MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Aealth . MR . HOUSE : Tape 2690 PK - 2 The hon. Minister of Mr . Speaker, I do not know i£ anybody else understood that~ that is what I said . I have said that the hospitals said they wanted 24 per cent over last year's amount to operate . ~ffi . ROBERTS : And then you said 12 per cent is enouqh . MR . HOUSE : Wait now ! We looked at the situation and we looked at the income we had and said 12 per cent seemed to be reasonable. Now,in doing their assessment 1 they 5714

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2691 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: have come back now, and it was a spokesman of their a couple of days ago who said if they had had an extra $12 million, I believe that was the figure, that they could have gotten along without any bed closures. That is what came through to me 1 and that is considerably below the $34 million extra they were looking for. MR. ROBERTS: So is it $12 million in addition to what they got or $12 million in addition to last year? MR. HOUSE: Yes, in addition to what they got, which is about 4 per cent more than they got.

They v.ould want about 4 per cent IIQre than they got to be able to operate fully,I suppose. ~'ffi. ROBERTS: I give up .. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I hate to change the subject but my colleague has given up, he is not getting any straight, honest answers from the hon. gentleman. I would like to direct a question to the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) who, the other day in replying to a question from the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) _ then the next day 1 I believe it was- he came in and accused the member of exaggerating ·the shortage of fuel in Labrador South, in St. Lewis. Now could the hon. gentleman tell us 1 if he could, if he has had time to check into that situation and tell us who he checked with? And if he did check, the hon. gentleman would find out that they have not had any fuel down there, Mr. Speaker, since November of last year; they had to go to Mary's Harbour for their fuel.

Now could the hon. gentleman tell us in view of this information if he will apologize to my colleague,the member for Eagle River, and the people of St. Lewis for accusing them of exaggerating the situation down there? 5715

May 30, 1983 MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . ?>1ARSHALL: Tape No. 2691 SD - 2 The hon. President of the Council . Mr . Speaker, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . Roberts) gave up after a series of question, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) should have given up before he asked his initial one . Mr. Speaker, you know, we receive the information from our staff on location in Labrador, JUr resident staff. 5716

May 30, 1983 Tape No, 2692 MJ ,... 1 MR. MARSHALL: The point I was making, Mr. Speaker, which was verified by the information that we received,was that the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) had been exaggerating the situation. There had been difficulties in certain communities with respect to the supply of fuel 1 but these difficulties had been able to be overcome, the hon. member there opposite said that they were able to get the fuel from another community.

But the point I was making was the picture that the hon. gentleman was painting at the time, as reference to Hansard will show, was on~ of complete and dire emergency and urgency at the time,but it was not as the hon. gentleman depicted it. There was a problem in one or two communities but they had been - MR. NEARY: for their fuel. MR. MARSHALL: Now they have to go to Cartwright Well, I mean, Mr. Speaker~ the hon. gentlemen do not want answers, MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired.

Before we continue with other business 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries today the federal MP for Gander-Twillingate, Mr. George Baker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery two visitors·from the other end of this great country, Mr. and Mrs. Rod Hungerford 1 who are visiting us from Vancouver. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 5717

May 30 , 1983 Tape No . 2692 ~lJ - 2 ANS~"IERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR . OTTENHEIMER : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Mini ster of Ju st ice . Mr . Speaker, I would like to MR . OTTENHEIMER: table the answer to Question No . 133, asked by the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . Roberts) last Friday . MR . TULK : MR . SPEAKER : PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr . Speaker. The hon . the member for Pogo . MR . TULK: ~tr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition today on behalf of some 425 residen ts of Fogo Island and the prayer of the petition, Mr .

Speaker , reads : 'To the hon. House of Ass embly, the petition of the undersigned do humbly and urgently request that the Minister of Transpo rt ation (Mr . Oawe) take immediate st eps to have a new road constructed from Island Harbour on Fogo Island to the new ferry terminal at M.an 0' t-lar Cove on Fogo Island . The distance involved is only one and a half miles. lfuen the new ferry landing at Man 0' War Cove becomes fully operational Island Harbour, Deep Bay, Foqo, Joe Batt's Arm, Tiltinq and Shoal Bay will all be between fifteen and 5718

~ay 30, 1983 Tape No. 2693 JV - 1 MR. TULK : twenty miles from the new ferry wharf. This puts us an an unfair disadvantage and causes undue hardship especially to residents who do not have their own vehicles and your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray:' Mr. Speaker, the petition is pretty well self-explanatory, however, I would like to point out in supporting the petition that it arises as a result 1 this particular _ petition 1 as a result of the movement of the ferry terminal from Seldom to Man 0' War Cove. Essentially what it does, Mr.

Speaker, it makes it eight more miles from every communiry except the community of Stag Harbour which is really only a mile and a half away from the ferry terminal or a mile, but for the two communities of Island Harbour and Deep Bay they now have to drive some fifteen to twenty miles and that, Mr. Speaker, is over some of the worse dirt roads in this Province.

If you look at the geography of the area, if you look at where Island Harbour and Deep Bay are located in relation to the ferry terminal itself,the truth is that those people can see just across the water from them .the boat leavinq the terminal on Fogo Island 1·,;;w_ ... "' at the same time if they want to get there by road or any other l'llay they have to travel some fifteen to twenty miles ·"J. !Il ~, as I said,it is over some of the worse gravel roads in the Province. Mr.

Speaker, the people of Island Harbour and Deep Bay have 11ad to, for the last number of years, put up with travelling over,again,the worst dirt roads in the Province,not some of the worst the worst .And.as the Spe?ker will recall,I have presented petitions on 5719

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2693 JV - 2 MR. TULK: the conditions of these roads many times. Mr. Speaker, the people of Island Harbour and Deep Bay like all the rest of the people on Fogo Island,are indeed deserving of much better services than they are getting. I have stood in this House many times and pointed out that the people on Fogo Island have really produced new dollars, 5720

May 30, 1983 Tape 2694 EC - 1 MR. TULK: millions of new dollars towards the Newfoundland and the Canadian economy without getting some of the infrastructure that governments put in place to try to get other people to produce new dollars . Mr. Speaker, really the only funds that they have gotten from governments have really come from as a result of the federal government, and, Mr. Speaker, of course, we have the best federal MP in Newfoundland, no doubt about that. Those people produce more per capita, Mr. Speaker, than do any other group of people in the Province. Mr.

Speaker, I would like also to point out that this road - MR. SIMMS: MR. TULK: How many do we have nm·r - Could I ask the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) to be quiet. I know he is high in his praise of the member for Gander-Twillingate (Mr. Baker), and he should be. Mr. Speaker, the road could be constructed at a minimal cost because of the type of ground the road has to go over. Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition and I support it for the reasons that I have just outlined.

Because if you look at the productivity of those people, the people of Island Harbour, Deep Bay, Fogo, Joe Batt's Arm, Tilting, Shoal Bay and Seldom, it is obvious that they are deserving of what they are looking for. The degree of need is there and the request for that mile and a half of road is very reasonable. I would ask the minister, who is not in the House - I notice that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has left; I do not know if there is anybody left on the other side to support this 5721

May 30, 1983 Tape 2694 EC - 2 MR. TULK: petition at all, either minister. But I would ask the ministers to support this petition and I would ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: I do not wish to go into any detail. I am not as familiar with the situation as the hon. gentleman is. In the absence of my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), I will certainly take the matter up with him and discuss it, and I am sure that if there is anythinq he can do during the current year, he will. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the Minister of Social Services decided to get into the debate. MR. HICKEY: Transportation. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: Services. MR. HICKEY: Acting Minister of Oh, acting minister. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Social I will just have to educate the hon. gentleman.

He has been out of Cabinet so long, I suppose he forgets the system. There are such things as acting ministers when other ministers are out of the House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has been acting for a long time. Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of this petition so ably presented by 5722

May 30, 1983 Tape 2694 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: my colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). I do not think the fact that the federal member is in the public galleries today was prearranged, I think it is merely a coincidence, but I am glad he is there, Mr. Speaker, because between the two of them, 5723

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2695 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I think they will manage to persuade the administration of the need for this mile and a half stretch of road. I am not all that familiar with the area myself, but Mr. Speaker, having been born and raised on an island I sympathize with the people in Island Harbour and in Deep Bay. Mr. Speaker, the ferry service is a matter of life and death to the people on Fogo Island, and to the people who live on other islands in this Province. They are not asking for all that much, Mr. Speaker, they are only asking for a mile and a half of road.

I think they are entitled to that in this day and age. As my colleague so rightly pointed out,the people of Fogo Island generate new dollars, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever a model community in this Province that pulled itself up by its boot straps it is Fogo Island. And I think the administration should go out of their way to do everything possible to help the people of Fogo Island. The Co-Op down there is a model and an example that could be followed and adopted anywhere in North America. MR. TULK: It is being used now. MR. NEARY: What is being used? MR. TULK: The model. MR. NEARY: The model is being used.

My hon. colleague says the model is being used, and rightly so. Because, Mr. Speaker, it is a real success story. These people down there are primary producers, they are producing new dollars, new revenue for the public coffers, and Mr. Speaker, they are entitled to better treatment than they are getting. Up to now,as far as road improvements are concerned,they have been discriminated against by this administration. In eleven years of Toryism - Can my colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) tell me, in eleven years of Toryism,how many roads have been upgraded and paved on Fogo Island? 5724

May 30, 1983 MR. TULK: MR . NEARY: MR . MORGAN: MR . NEARY: Tape No. 2695 N~- 2 Not very many. Not very many . How many miles? A lot rrore than in the twenty-odd yEiars of Liberalism. Mr . speaker, the ho·n. qentleman is not familiar with the history of the Province.so the hon . gentleman had better stick to telling jokes . Because he is certainly not familiar with - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! 5725

May 30, 1983 Tape 2696 PK - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The Chair is having some difficulty in listening to the comments of the Leader of the •Opposition (Mr. Neary) while other hon. members are interrupting. The Chair also feels that the hon. Leader of the Opposition is straying somewhat from the prayer of this petition. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to belabour the matter. I just want to say that we on this side of the House are right behind our colleague and the member of Parliamentfor Gander/Twillingate (Mr. Baker), in trying to get something done with this stretch of road.

They are going to move the ferry terminal to Man o• War Cove which is a mile and a half awa~ and it is going to make 'it very difficult fo= people who can sit down in their look out and see the ferry coming and going and yet they have to drive fifteen or sixteen !1R. TULK: Twenty miles. MR. NEARY: Twenty miles to get to Man 0' War Cove. That is not good enough, Mr. Speaker. If we can spend a half a million dollars on a Sir Humphrey Gilbert bash,there is no reason why that they could not spend a few dollars on that mile and a half of road. MR. SIMMS: half million,too. MR. NEARY : MR. SIMMS: million, too.

The feds are giving us a Give us what? The feds are giving us a half MR. NEARY: The feds are giving you a half million . Well, MR. SIMMS: They SUpfX>rted it, the Daily News supfX>rted it. Everybody is supporting it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we will debate that matter at some other time. But we support the petition and we hope that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) who spoke for the administration was sincere,that he will be 572 ·6

May 30 , 1983 Tape 2696 PK - 2 MR . NEARY : able to see to it, persuade his colleagu es to allocate the money that is necessary in this fiscal year to have that piece of road constructed. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon . the t-!inister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill "An Act To Amend The City Of St . John 's(Loan)Act , 1978 , "carried . (Bill No . 60) . On motion , Bill No. 60 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow .

On motion , a bill , "An Act To Establish An Economic Council For The Province ," read a third time , ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper (Bill No . 1) . On motion, A bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper (Bill No . 9) . On motion , A bill "An Act To Amend The Co-Operative Societies Act", read a third time , ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper (Bill No . 24) . 5727

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2697 SD - 1 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commission Act", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 30). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Portability Of Pensionable Service Between Certain Pension Plans Guaranteed By The Province", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 39). On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 35).

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions For Transferred Employees', read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 36). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Uniformed Services Pensions Act", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 41). MR. MARSHALL: Motion 38, Bill No. 47. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act, 1973". (Bill No. 47). MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, this bill is in the name of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who, I believe, is conferring with the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) behind the curtain so I will do a preliminary introduction. The purpose of this bill is the same as the explanatory note. It is to enable the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation to borrow money - now the Minister of Finance is back and with leave of the House, so that we do 5728

t-1ay 30 , 1983 Tape No . 2697 so - 2 MR . MARSHALL : not have to introduce the bill in unison , perhaps the minister can pick it up at the second sente nc e of the explanat ory note . MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Does the bon . minister have leave to introduce the bill? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Yes . MR. SPEAKER : Leave granted . The hon . Mini ster of Finance . DR . COLLINS: Thank you , Mr . Speaker , and my than .ks to the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) for so ably start ing the ball rolling . I have almost nothing to do now as a result of that .

As my colleague mentioned , what th is bill will do will be put beyond any doubt that the Liquor Corporation has the authority to borrow . It was al ways understood that they had and,indeed ,they had legal opinion themselve s that they had, but there was some question raised about it by other legal opinion relat ed 5729

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2698 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: to the lender and to overcome any possible doubt there this amendment is brought in. I might just point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation was created in 1973 and one of its main objectives, if not its main objective, is to provide the most efficient means of distributing alcoholic beverages to the public of this Province. And at the present time the Corporation operates 40 retail liquor outlets and approximately the same number of agency operations.

Now,of these the Corporation itself O\'ms 10 stores and the plan of the Corporation now is to fund any further capital works out of borrowings, In other words, they will take a long-term approach to funding their capital works as opposed to what they have done up to now, which was actually fund them out of their current revenues. Mr. Speaker, I think the bon. members of the House will understand that it is most unusual to do that. All Crown Corporations essentially borrow for their capital programmes and this is what the Liquor Corporation is planning to do at the present time.

Now the bill will just confirm that they can borrow long-term and short-term, that they can issue bonds. The aggregate of the amount of loans is set by the Cabinet and in the current year that aggregate amount is set at $2 rr.illion, and the debentures will be guaranteed by the Province and that is the essential aspec1· that the lenders want to be absolutely sure on, that there is no doubt about it that the Province stands behind these debentures that the coporation will issue. So, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. 5730

May 30, 1983 MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : Strait of Belle Isle. M"R. ROBERTS : Tape No. 2698 NM - 2 The hon . member for the Mr. Speaker, we on this side have no particu lar quarrel with what the minister attempts to do but I do feel before we vote there are one or two questions which he ought to answer and which he has not answered in his remarks introducing the bill . The Liquor Corporation, of cours e~ in many ways is a financier 's dream .

It has a product that is in stead y demand \.,.hether we like it or not , "-'hether \.,.e like the product or like the demand or not,it is in steady demand* UMike the gentleman from St. John 's North (Mr. Carter) who is in no demand at all , anjl\'mere , at any time, the Liguor Corporation sells a product that is in steady demand and I would assume, I do not have the numbers in front of me, but I would venture to say I am on 5731

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2699 JV - 1 MR. ROBERTS : safe ground when I say is an increasing demand. I realize that Your Honour, being a lifetime member of the WCTU and a number of other allied organizations,would not understand that,other thari in an academic way.I am quite sure that Your Honour would understand it in an academic way but I assure Your Honour that there are many of Your Honour's fellow Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who feel that the products sold by the NLC are products which they desire to purchase. ~ffi. ~: Who owns the liquor stores? The ones the former ~remier created. MR.

ROBERTS: I have no idea. I wish I owned one or two of them. Heaven knows over the years I have put enough into them that I feel I do own one of them. MR. NEARY: troubled Tory times. MR . ROBERTS : The demand gets greater in My friend for LaPoile brings the matter to a point by saying in troubled Tory times people take to drink. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me carry on 1 not only has it got a product that is in demand it has a monopoly.

If you wish to buy liquor lawfully in this Province today other than by the drink or by the glass or by the strawfull or whatever is sold,you must buy it from the NLC stores,either their own stores or their agencies or the ~rewers retail I suppos< . But in a sense the brewers retail in that regard are agents of the NLC as well. In fac~,they are called brewers agents They are not agents of the breweries,they are agents of the NLC at law. So the result of those two happy facts that any merchandiser would give his left arm and his right leg for- 5732

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2699 JV - 2 MR. ROBERTS: oh, I am sorry I forgot the other thing,the NLC has no credit. You do not give in your Visa Card or your MasterCharge or write a cheque or say put it on account,it is cash on the barrel head. Cash, filthy cash, lucre,specie,coin of the realm, nnthing but cash. So as a result of those three factors 1 a product that is much in demand, a monopoly on its sale ano the lack of credit, tne NLC has a cash flow that can only be the envy of any business person in this Province o~ I suggest, evep the Department of Finance.

And, of course, we know how much the Department of Finance think of that,they think of it very highly because whenever they are short of cash the very first place they go is they invite the NLC to make a greater contribution towards the net revenues of this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, because the NLC has such a very tremendous cash flow it is hard to conceive how it could have any need for borrowing at all except,and I will grant the exception and come back to deal with it,except in the case of long­ term capital cornrnittment. MR. CARTER: Invite the member to see for himself. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) I was telling him -we were in the elevator and Your Honour may not believe this but I assure you it is true that my hon. friend from St. John's North and I outside the House get cozy from time to time, ~ot quite mind to mind and belly to belly, in the words of the soon to be ex-leadership candidate, 5733

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2700 MJ - 1 MR. ROBERTS: but as gentleman 0r thosf', i.n his case and in my case, who consider themselves gentleman ought to behave. Now I was saying to him today in the elevator that we were rising in the world. It is the one way that my hon. friend opposite can ever get to rise in the world, we were rising up in the elevator and I said to him, ' You know, the last time you interrupted me ih the House,when I was making a few remarks on the execrable state of the roads in my district, I sent the Hansard down to the editor of the Northern Pen, the newspaper in St.

Anthony, and he ran a story on my remarks,then a couple of weeks later he wrote an editorial in which he extracted some of the comments which I had made about the hon. gentleman and suggested that given my wit I was obviously em~lating John Crosbie and going on to greater things, or attempting to go on to greater things. I said that that am~sed me and that I had never thought of my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) as playing the role of John the Baptist, namely, as the one who goes before, setting up the straight man.

All I would say to him in his John the Baptist role is that he should be very careful if the Premier invites him to a dance some evening because he may find defeatures in it. Now, let me come back to the cash flows of the ~ewfoundland Liquor Corporation which,after all, is what we are talking about here. There is no conceivable reason I suggest, and the minister has not given us one, why the Corporation needs to borrow on its current account.

I do not know what its terms are with its suppliers, whether it pays cash on delivery for its product and buys it from the wholesalers or the manufacturers, whoever it buys it from, or whether it has credit terms thirty, sixty, ninety days, it does not matter. The fact remains that all of its sales are in cash and its sales are a very large and an assured 5734

May 30, 1983 Tape No . 2700 MJ - 2 MR . ROBERTS : amount . So there is no conceivable reason why it would need any credit at all at the bank,even for its puyrolls. You know , it Is awash in c~sh in th~r~. Unless the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) is milking the corporation in an effort to trv to get some money to bolster the fortunes of the budget as a whol e. That may well be it . MR . NEARY: MR . ROBERTS: You hit the nail on the head . And my friend from LaPoile (Mr . Neary) will be able to expand upon this. Mr .

Speaker, let me also go on to say that the minister has spoken of borrowing on capital account and this is one of the things the bill does . Now,if that is alJ he wants the C~rporation authorized to borrow ,then I would say to him if he wil l undertake to amend the bill we will support it without further ado. The problem, of course, Mr. Speaker, is that the bill as it now stands authorizes the NLC to borrow on capital or current account. That is made quite clear by the new

section 19.1 (l) (

a) which reads , " the Corpo ration may borrow money for any of its purposes , including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing , capital fi nancin g;" 5735 •·

May 30, 1983 Tape 2701 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS : In other words, if this bill is rammed through this House by this administra­ tion in the dying days of this moribund session, the NLC will be able to go out and borrow for any purpose. If it is simply for capital account, then let the minister say so and let him amend the bill accordingly,or let him ask one of his colleagues to amend it in committee and there will be no further ado. Because we will authorize gladly the corporation to borrow for capital account. Now mind you, the minister has not told us why the corporation has a capital account.

Are they building new facilities? Are they buying facilities? I do not know. But if they are, let him say so . The other point I would draw Your Honour's attention to, Mr. Speaker, is

Section 19.8; 19.8 is one of these sections that sneaks in almost unnoticed near the end of the bill. The draftsmen just get ecstatic at the thought of a

section like 19.8.

In its entirety, it says, 'Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in the Financial ndministration net or any other act or law,' -fairly sweeping words­ 'Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in the Financial Administration Act, 1973 or any other Act or law, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may from time to time advance to the orporation any sum he deems to be necessary or desirable to enable the Corporation to attain any of its objects or to carry on its business, and any such advance may be made in such amount,for such term 1 at such rate of interest and on such termsand conditions as may be approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.' HR.

NEARY: It is pretty sweeping. MR. ROBERTS: Now, how is that for a grant of power, Your Ho'nour? Here it is, an innocuous little bill, 5736

May 30, 1983 Tape 2701 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: and here we are in the last dying days of this moribund session with this moribund administration, with this moribund minister and we get a

section saying, 'Notwithstanding any Act or law of the Province .' The Cabinet - the polite word is the Lieutanant­ Governor in Council but we all know that, of course, is the Cabinet - the Cabinet may advance any sums or sum that they deem necessary to the corporation on such terms as they deem fit . Now why do we need that, Mr. Speaker? Why do we need it? If we do not need it, why do we put it in? If we do need it, what is the 5737

May 30, 1983 Tape 2702 PK - l MR. ROBERTS: reason? It is not to authorize borrowing by the NLC which is what the explanatory note says, it is not to authorize the Corporation to go out and borrow some money and give debentures to enable it to build a new building or to buy more bottling equipment or whatever it may be doing in the line of capital account expenduitures, it simply gives the Cabinet a completely unfettered power to lend money to the NLC on such terms, at such, rate of interest, and for such term as the Cabinet may see £it. Now I can only assume that my friend for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) had not noticed that section. I know he is just about indefatigab~e in his consideration of legislation, but I can only assume he had not seen that because he has stood here in this House,on both sides,over his long and inglorious career as a member of this House and objected to that kind of wording. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: And there it is, 'notwithstanding any ~ct or law of the Province, the Cabinet can lend the Liquor Corporation whatever it wants.' Whatever it wants, for how long it wants, on such terms it wants, and at such rate of interest it wants.

Now,how is that for a grant of power? Mr. Speaker as I said at the outset,if the bill is amended so as simply to achieve that which the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has said he wants to achieve, namely, to make it certain at law that the NLC may borrow long-term and may issue its debentures to support these loans and to secure them,then we on this side are prepared to support that legislation and to vote in favour of it. On the other hand, Mr.

Speaker, given these two flaws in the bill, the fact that it can be used for far nore than c.:opital account financing, and the fact that the government are given a power to advance any unlimited amount of money without any restriction at all to the corporation, I must say, Sir, we on this side having discussed this at great 5738

May 30, 1983 Tape 2702 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS : lenth in caucus, and agonized over it for s~veral weeks,are really very dubious and we are not at all sure that Che minister ought to be encomaged in the kind of wild careening conduct that he appears now to be embarked upon . Having said that, Sir , I think my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) - MR . NEARY: No , no. You said it all. MR. ROBERTS : Oh , no, I have said it all . At least for this thing.I will now sit dow n and lis ten to the astute analysis of the gentleman for St .

John's North (Mr .Carter) wh o, on thi s, as on so many other matters, has opinions backed by knowledge, opinions that are sound , relevant, thoughtful, perceptive, considered and - MR . TULK : Like the Minister of Health . MR . ROBERTS: Like the Minister of Health (Mr . House) -are solidly founded on knowledge ,on assiduous 5739

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2703 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: study, on many years of preparation, on an understanding of the law and of the financial structure of the Province and of the way everythinq works, right from the savoury growing up from the ground into the intricacies of the government's long-range financing, the EPF, the offshore energy situation, and anything else at which the hon. gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is so expert. MR. NEARY: If you sniff enough savoury can you get high on it? MR. ROBERTS: I would not know. He is well over six feet high~ so he may be very high on savoury.

But I would say to my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), I do not know how high the gentleman from St. John's North can qo, but over the years we have seen how low he can go and that speaks for itself. So I will conclude by inviting him to engage in this debate on its merits if, in fact, in his eyes the bill has any merits at all. But a little bit more seriously, Sir, to deal with somebody who counts, namely, the minister as opposed to the gentleman from St.

John's North, there are these two questions about the bill and they go directly contrary to the purposes which the minister has told us are to be served by the bill and that being so .why are they in the bill? And if there is no reason to put them in let us take them out, Sir. They are just a grant of power~ to the executive and it is not needed. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : If the hon. minister now speaks he will close the debate. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for the Strait ·of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) indicated that the business of the Corporation is of an expanding nature and its 5740

Ma y 30, 1983 Tape No . 2703 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: revenues a.re increasing . That is quite true . In the revised estimates for '82- '83, the revenue from the Corporation was just over $60 million . Now granted what we have in the budget for this year is a project ion, but our projections in the past, as all our projections,have been in all aspects of our budget making remarkably accurate, and I would expect that what we are projectinq , which is $66 million, will be very near the mark. So it is quite true that the revenues are increasing. Now,that is not all on the basis of 5741

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2704 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: increased volume as hon. members of this hon. House are aware, there have been increases in the mark up on alcoholic beverages also. MR. ROBERTS: Only too painfully aware of it, I fear. DR. COLLINS: I mean, aware from their legislative duties. I am not saying that they are necessarily aware fromtheirpurchases, but they may be aware from that point of view , also. Now, Mr. Speaker, the other point that the bon. member brought up was the borrowing on other than cupitul. Mr.

Speaker, the main point here is to ensure that not only does the Corporation have the clear power to borrow but,also ,that the borrowings are government guaranteed. What has happened in the past in terms of short-term borrowing,was that the banks would accept that a guarantee would be forthcomin~. They would not hold up a loan of short-term nature of the Corporation, and there have been short-term borrowings just for the conduct of their business. That has been necessary from time to time, I do not need to go into details.

Almost all businesses do have to have a bit of working capital at some point or other and need to get into some element of short -term borrowing. But the banks have taken it that a guarantee will be forthcoming at a later date. Now that was, shall we say, taken on faith. Now,in terms of long-term borrowing that is a somewhat different aspect of things. When you are borrowing on a fifteen or twenty year term , that type of extent, it is less likely that a lender would take the fact that you could be guaranteed by the Province on faith.

They want that as an up-front undertaking, up-front understanding, an up-front power of the rorporation. And that is essentially what this bill is doing. It is giving it the power to borrow but it is also showing that any borrowing that it does 5742

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2704 so - 2 DR. C OLLI NS : enter into will be guaranteed. Now , it would in actual fact be somewhat anomalous to give that in one form of borrowing, i.e., the long term and not gi ve it in the short term even though,as I say , in the past the banks have 5743

May 30, 1983 Tape 2705 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: not actually demanded it but they certainly expect it and fully expect that a guarantee would be forthcoming in short order. So actually, the bill here is making the whole thing consistent. We are ensuring that the Corporation has a clear ability to borrow short-term, long-term. We are making it quite clear here that the government guarantee will be given for long-term borrowing, will be given for short-term borrowing. So it is just really making the whole act consistent.

And the same thing applies to the comment that the hon. member made with regard to 19.8, that is, the advancement or the possibility that the govern­ ment may advance moneys to the 0.orporation on certain terms and so on. That is put into acts where power is given to a Crown corporation to borrow. That is a regular thing. That allows any circumstance that might arise requiring short-term government lending to go ahead without any difficulty. It really gives a certain amount of flexi­ bility and it is not unusual to have it in this type of authority. So, Mr. Speaker, with those remarks, I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act, 1973," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently by leave. (Bill No. 47). MR. MARSHALL: Order 42. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act," (Bill No. 50). MR. SPE AKER (Aylward): The hon. the Minister of Finance. 5744

May 30, 1983 Tape 2705 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, these amendments will clarify and will make consistent certain aspects of our pension system for public servants and it is very closely tied in with the portability act that we gave second reading to, and I believe third reading now, earlier in this sitting. 5745

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2706 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: The first clause, Mr. Speaker, overcomes an inequity, that is in terms of deferred pension benefits, and this will permit a former employee who has not reached the age of forty-five, •t~hen he would be normally locked in, who has not reached that age but who has elected to take a deferred pension rather than take his refunds, that he will now be allowed to renege on that election. It allows him to do that.

If it is in his own interest to do that, if he made such an election that he would take a deferred pension, you know,it might be 20 years hence or whatever, but now if he finds it in his own best interest,that if he reneged on that and actually got his contributions back,we will allow him to do that. Mr.

Speaker, clause 2 will permit a person who had - that is a necessary point there - who had participated in one of our pension plans and had received a refund on his contributions ,and who becomes an employee again, he will be able to get service for his pensionable service provided, of course,he repays back the contributions he was refunded. And, Mr. Speaker, the third clause there points out that certain non-profit bodies, the employees there, can be covered by the Public Service Pension Plan.

The previous wording stated that the non-profit organization had to be owned and controlled by government, and that was very restrictive. The present wording will allow a somewhat broader coverage. it is where a non-profit organization is providing a service which if that non-profit organization was not doing it government would have to do it. In other words,these people are standing in the shoes of government. MR. NEARY: \\That falls into this? DR. COLLINS: Well, you know, say the Public Service Credit Union would be one. 5746

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2707 MJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: ~nd another might be, say,a nursing horne. It might not be owned and controlled by government but it is actually giving a public service and if the public was not given by, say, a church organization or whatever, government would obviously have to go in and provide the service. These individuals are essentially employees of the public service so they come in under the public service pension plan. So, I think that explains the act there, Mr. ·Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it is about as clear as mud but I think I got the drift of what the hon. gentleman was talking about. I think it is very important that former employees who get a pension refund, Mr. Speaker, if they come back into the public service that they once again be covered under the public service employees pension plan. I think that is only fair and just. We have no objection to this bill, Mr.

Speaker, but it does give us an opportunity again to raise the matter that was brought out in the Auditor General's Report for the fiscal year 1981 - 82 1when the Auditor General,rnuch to our surprise,drew attention to the fact that the public service ernployees'pension fund was under­ funded, that there was a possibility that down the road a few years it may be virtually impossible for the government to pay out benefits to former employees who go off on retirernent,from the pubic service. It caused quite a stir, I might say, Mr.

Speaker, around the Province, quite a stir indeed, especially amongst people already retired. And it seems to be a very serious matter. The Public Accounts Committee raised it recently at one of their meetings and they will probably be developing'this matter further when they get back at other meetings. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe the 5747

~lay 30, 1983 Tape No . 2707 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY: Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) who shied away from this very serious matter, while \-i'e are on this bill and when he is closing the debate on second reading, that the hon. gentleman should qive us a sort of state of the pension fund . Is the Auditor General correct in his observations? lvill there be problems with the fu .nding, with paying out fensions to people who retire over the years, "'ho have retired, who will retire in the next couple of years? Will there be any problems? \Vhat steps are the administration taking to deal Hith these matters? It is a matter of concern, Mr . Speaker, to an a"1ful lot of people and 5748

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2708 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: I believe the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) should make a statement in this House that will reassure people on pension and people who will be going on pension in the next few years,that their cheques will be honoured , ~~,~ there is no way that we will reach the point in time in this Province when the government will not be able to meet their commitmen~as far as pension payments are concerned. Now, Mr . Speaker, as I say,we have no real objection to this bill.

T'Jhether or not an employee decides to defer his pension,wait until he reaches the age of 45,or whether he elects to withdraw his pension contributions and get a refund,I think he should have that choice.~nd I believe that is what this bill does,it give the employee a choice where he can leave in his - I remember when I lost my job with DOSCO in 1966-I was going to say When I retired from DOSCO - but when I lost my job with DOSCO in 1966 I withdrew my pension contributions.

If I had left it there, maybe at age of 65 I might have got a very small pension of maybe twenty or twenty-five dollars a month but I withdrew, that was my choic E'. I had a choice to leave it there or withdraw I and get a refund on my contributions,and I took the refund. So I think it is only fair that people should have that choice. ~ n~ .as I say, once you make that decision and you leave the public service and then a year or two,or maybe several years later you come back into the 'public servic -, then you should have a right to purchase the service.

In other words,if you take a refund and,say,you had ten years service when you withdrew your pension contributions, when you come back in the public service you should have 5749

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2708 JV - 2 f.1R. NEARY: the right to purchase that ten year~.A~~ I believe that is what this bill does , ir gives former employees the right to purchase their- just the same as you have the riqht in this House to purchase your years of service . And, so, Mr. Speaker, we have no objection to the bill but I would certainly like to hear a statement from the minister on the

section of the Auditor -General's report dealing with questions, dealing with doubts as to whether or not at the presen ·t rate of fundin c we will be able to meet our obligation~ whether the administration will be able to continue to pay out pension benefits in the years ahead . I do not expect a full-fledged debate on it now,but I would certainly like to hear the hon. gentleman comment on that item . 5750

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2709 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : If the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate. DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, just on the last point first there about buying back service: In actual fact those in the teachers' pension plan and those in the uniformed services plan could have bought back before but now all individuals, including MHAs and including people on the MUN plan,will be able to buy back their previous pensionable service if they again become re-employed in the public service.

And it makes it equitable; the individuals will buy back at the rate of their new starting salary. The usual contribution rate is 6 per cent by the employee and 6 per cent of salary by government. On the other point that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) brought up, Mr. Speaker, about the guarantee that pensions are not in jeopardy, I can give an unequivocal guarantee on that even though it is quite true that we are mounting an actuarial study just to see what our unfunded liability is.

And the reason why I can give an unequivocal guarantee, of course, is that there was no such thing as a pension fund up to 1980. The pensions were paid out of the consolidated fund and that was always the mechanism right from the time the public service pension arrangement carne into force which, I think, was in 1967. So for that thirteen year period the consolidated fund stood behind the pension obligations. We have now, since 1980, at least ~artially funded our pension obligation. So we have a two-barrelled approach there now~ Not just a one-barrelled approach, a two barrelled approach.

And when we have the actuarial study completed, it is quite a task to get such a study done, but when that is completed we will be able to see whether 5751

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2709 so - 2 DR . COLLINS: we should adjust our pen si on fund,which will improve the arrangement even more so . But I think it should be everyone's understanding that the consolidated fund in any case stands behind the pen si on obligations of this Province . I move second reading . SOME HON. MEMBERS: With those remarks , Mr. Speaker, Bear, hear. On motion, a bill , "An Act To Amend The Public Service (.Pensions) Act ", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of The ~~ole Rouse pre se ntly, by leave . (Bill ~o. 50) .

Motion, second reading of a bill , "An Act To Amend The Petroleum And Natural Gas Act ." (Bill No . 54) . MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR . MARS HALt. : The hon. President of the Council . Mr. Speaker, this is a bi ll that is going to cmpov1er the Executive Council to make regulations with respect to the compensation for any damage to th e environment and the fishery as a result of the conduct of ex pl oration , 5752

May 30, 1983 Tape 2710 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and it is brought in specifically at this time, Mr. Speaker, with a view to the hoped for activity on . the West Coast of this Province. As hon. members are aware, certain acreage on the West Coast of this Province was put out for tender.

The tenders close on June lOth and at that particular time - we do not know how much interest there is going to be in the area on June lOth, if there is not, we shall try again sometime in the future because we have to realize that when the tenders were called it carne at a time when there was a downturn in the overall international/national economy.

But in any event, we want to have - we have done every­ thing we can to foster interest on the West Coast and we want to be sure at the same time, if an appropriat~ bid comes in that is acceptable, that there are regulations in place to adequately protect the environment and the fishery. Now, you will note, Mr. Speaker, with respect to this bill, that there are two areas on the West Coast that we will be concerned with, that is those onshore and on the near shore. It has been rather difficult to come up with yardsticks with respect to the formulas that will be used in this MR. NEARY: MR.

MARSHALL: Does it apply to the offshore? Yes, it applies to the offshore as well. It becomes rather difficult to bring in a new scheme of this nature, but before so doing, we had resource to the OPIC Committee, the Fishery and Environmental subcommittee of OPIC, which did an excellent job in conducting the research necessary in order to bring this bill to the House. In doing so, it reviewed the practices in the United Kingdom and in the North Sea. And what has been decided, Mr. Speaker, even though you will not find it 5753

May 30, 1983 Tape 2710 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL : in the body of this bill, the recommendations have been given to the Cabinet. In framing the reg~lations that will be made under this particular act, certain recommendations have been made which have been adopted. But, of course, in order to make those regulations, one ha s to have the authority to make them and this is the purpose of this bill, to give the Cabinet power to make the regulations. And for the purpose of the information of hon . members , may I say in general terms what it is contemplated that these regulations will contain .

First of all , because it is new, we are going to view this as a two year pilot project and ~~en review the regulations at the end of that time to see if any adjustments are necessary . And during that period of time, there are two types of damages that can be caused , as hen . members know . The first are the attributable damages and these are damages that can be attributable directly to the company which is involved in the offshore or onshore drilling .

In the event that they can be attri buted, of co urse , the per son who has been caused damage or the agency that has been caused damage, indeed, the government of the Province if the damage is caused to the government, can take action 5754

May 30, 1983 Tape 2711 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: directly against the company itself. So with respect to attributable damages,we are going to require companies operating on the West Coast offshore to be required to supply evidence of financial responsibility up to $40 million. Now members may ask, how did we come to the $40 million? How did we come to that? We came to that figure, Mr. Speaker, by reviewing the practices in other jurisdictions. Of course, it is a fairly new scheme anywhere in the world. But we have put the figure at $40 million, comparing what is the useage in the United Kingdem and elsewhere.

So that is attributable damage, damage that can be attributed to a company. Occasionally there would be some kinds of non-attributable damage. With respect to that,the information that we ·have recieved is that there should need only be a non-attributable fund for damage to the fisheries. With respect to the environment itself,all damage is usually attributable,or that certainly has been the experience to date.

So for the present time, bearing in mind that one has to balance the interest of the fishery as against the desire to get drilling going,particularly on the West Coast,and not to make these regulations too prohibitive so that nobody is going to drill there, we have provided that there should be a fisheries compensation fund and there will be amounts that will have to be paid by the companies who may be drilling into this fund. And that fund will be subject to review yearly to determine the adequacy of the fund itself, and if it is deemed not sufficient there is power of the Executive Council to increase it.

There are also other provisions , Mr. Speaker_ The companies, of course, will have to show financial proof of responsibility for their $40 million or whatever other requirements are necessary. I indicated 'that there was no evidence that other jurisdictions have found 5755

May 30, 1983 Tape 2711 PK - MR. MARS HALL : it unnecessary to have a non-attributable compensation fund for environmental damage, but that is not to say that environmental damage will not be compensated for ,because if it is attributable damage one can go against the negligent actor . Then, Mr. Speaker, as I want to emphasize again, this a pilot project for two 2 years. It is a bill which is representative of the government's deep concern with respect to the new industry that we hope will come to realization in this Province, the development of oil and gas.

I think it is probably the first instance of a legislative effort, a direct legislative effort by the Province to balance the new industry, the operations of the new industry with respect,specificall~ to the fishing industry itself. And we are proceeding very carefully because in doing this balance,on the one hand you have to be sure that your rules and regulations are not such that they preclude exploration and that they preclude development on the offshore, but at the same time .they have to be strict enough to give adequate protection to the fishery and adequate protection to the environment.

What is adequate is going to depend upon the circumstances. Obviously it will have to be reviewed if and when we get into the stage of development and if and when there are experiences of this nature. In the meantime,we have to rest on the experiences of other jurisdictions which the OPIC Committee 5756

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2712 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and the government have done,and the consequence is this particular act which will enable us to make strong regulations. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all,! want to say that we on this side of the House agree with this bill. We agree with the principle of the bill and we intend to support it. I was rather disappointed to hear the minister sort of apologize for the introduction of the bill and to walk rather gingerly as far as the bill is concerned.

The gentleman who introduced the bill for the administration seemed to pick and choose his words. He was very cautious about what he was saying there about this bill, Mr. Speaker, and maybe the hon. gentleman knows something that we do not know and maybe that is why he was treading so lightly as far as this bill is concerned. Because Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman that the question that is being raised here is whether oil and fish can co-exist, whether we can have oil and fish, Mr. Speaker. That is what the bill is really all about.

It is a question that has been asked by a good many people in this Province in the last, I would say,fifteen years, well I would say since about 1968 or 1979,when the first oil rig,SEDCO 709 I think it was, arrived in Newfoundland waters and started drilling for oil. From then on people began to ask the question, can the fishery survive where you have the offshore oil and the threat of an oil spill and the threat of a blowout in one of the holes offshore? It is a big question, Mr. Speaker, and it is only now that the administration are addressing themselves to the question.

It is a big question and it is unfortunate that this bill is being introduced in the House in the dying hours of this particular part of the session of the Legislature. It is unfortunate, 5757

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2712 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: because I am sure that a lot of members on a daily basis now are saying, "Will we finish today? Will we finish tomorrow? \'~Jill we finish Wednesday? When will the House adjourn?" That is a matter that is on hon. members' minds and it is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that it has to be that way. Because probably the only comments now 5758

May 30, 1983 Tape No, 2713 ,MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: that we will get from bon, gentleman there opposite w~il be from the minister who introduced the bill ,and that will be tragic, unfortunate, Mr. Speaker. Because what we are talking about here,as I said a few moments ago, He are talking about protection of the fishery and protection of the Newfoundland environment, Mr. Speaker. And no stone, in my opinion,should be left unturned to protect the Newfoundland fishery. The Newfoundland fishery is the most basic industry we have.

It is the one industry that has kept Newfoundland afloat now for almost 500 years and, .Mr, Speaker, let us face it, there is always that danger with drilling going on onshore, near shore and offshore, there is that danger, Mr. speaker, that one spill, one blowout could ruin the Newfoundland fishery for years and years to come. Unfortunately , this bill does not deal with measures to offset an oil spill of any magnitude.

This bill merely deals with the establishment of a fund, of a committee, the establishment of a board, 'The Lieutenant-Governor in Council may establish a board to be known as the Fisheries Compensation Board". So what we are talking about here, Mr. Speaker, is compensation in the event of a major oil spill. We are not dealing with the matter of prevention ,of what steps and measures should be taken to prevent an offshore or an onshore or a near shore oil spill, we are merely talking about compensation. And as far as I am concerned,nothing could compensate tor the loss of our fishery, for damage to our fishery.

Nothing could compensate for that, Mr. Speaker. All the dollars in the world, and you can talk about companies having to give evidence of $40 million, Mr. Speaker, but nothing,in my opinion,could compensate, there is not enough dollars that could compensate for ruining the Newfoundland fishery. And I hope that it will never happen 1 but I am very concerned about this matter and have been concerned about it for a good many years and have spoken 5759

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2713 MJ .,... 2 MR. NEARY: in this House on a number of occasions about the possibility of damage being done t9 the Newfoundland fishery as a result of a blowout in one of these holes,or an oil spill either onshore or offshore, Mr. Speaker, 5760

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2714 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I have pointed out on a number of occasions in this House that there is not adequate protection. There are not enough safeguards and there is no technology available that I know of that can cope or deal with a major spill offshore, a blowout on the Grand Banks, right in the heart of the breeding grounds for cod. Mr. Speaker, a few years ago they started a programme down here in St. John's Harbour, they recruited a number of members of the Longshoremen's Protective Union, to train them into trying to cope with an oil spill off our coast.

A dispute arose, as far as I know, between the people who were sponsoring this programme and the LSPU, and as a result the LSPU withdrew their services. I do not know if they have been reinstated. I do not know if the authorities, the powers that be, were able to accommodate the members of the LSPU who had to give up their time to undergo this training which was very important to the industry and to the fishery and to this Province.

These were the only people that I know, apart from the Coast Guard of course, the full-time employees of the Canadian C9ast Guard, these were the only people outside of the Coast Guard that I know of that were given any training at all to cope with an oil spill off our coast, whether it be near shore or offshore, and they withdrew their services. I have lost contact with the situation. I had a great deal of discussion with the executive of the LSPU there about two years ago, and I had a great deal of discussion with the Coast Guard over this matter, Mr. Speaker.

As I lost contact with the members of the LSPU I do not know to this day whether they have reinstated their services or not. So if they have not, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. gentleman when he is closing the debate in second readino,if he would tell the House what services are available now to deal with an oil spill off our Coast. Are we depending wholly and solely on the services 5761

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2714 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: of the Canadian Coast Guard? I believe we are, Mr. Speaker, and I was told about a year ago by a high ranking official of the Canadian Coast Guard that even though they have the latest equipment available, the latest 5762

. May 30, 1983 Tape 2715 EC - l MR. NEARY: technology available, they had it stored then down at Fort Pepperrell, behind a wire fence down there, that even though they had the latest technology available today, this official told me that there was no way that they could cope with a major oil spill off our coast. Even though they had the latest technology available on the face of the earth, there was no way that they could cope with a major oil spill off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is really something! I hope hon. gentlemen will think about that.

That is really something for hon. gentlemen to think about, that even though the oil companies and the drilling companies have contributed towards the purchase of the technology, the equipment,and the Coast ~d have taken the responsibility of maintaining and looking after that equipment, that the Coast ~d will readily admit that even with that technology that is supplied by the oil companies, there is no way they can cope with a major oil spill off our shores. And we all know, Mr.

Speaker, the hazards of drilling off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador where you are exposed and where the drills and, if we ever get into production, the platforms, will be exposed to the savage storms of the North Atlantic, the roughest weather, I suppose, in the world, where an oil drilling rig or a production platform may have to dis­ connect at a moment's notice, as a matter of fact, may not have time to disconnect, and we will end up, Mr. Speaker, with an oil spill that cannot be controlled.

Also,Hibernia and some of these oil wells are in what they call iceberg alley, a hazard that they do not have in the North Sea. We saw this year, Mr. Speaker, 5763

May 30, 1983 Tape 1715 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : an example of what can happen when literally hundreds of icebergs, more than we see under normal circumstances moving down from the North 5764

May 30, 1983 Tape 2716 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: and the oil rigs having to be moved off their moorings to let the ice and icebergs go by. Several hundred icebergs right in the area where the drilling is taking place. Is it any wonder they call it iceberg alley, Mr. Speaker? And then I am told that the oil companies and the drilling companies are now developing a new technology, something I have never heard of before, Mr.

Speaker, and this may be of some interest to hon. members there opposite,if they do not already know, that in order to avoid- I mean,it is one thing to move the rigs off the hole or to disconnect a production platform and move it off the well 1 but when you do that you have to leave,the cap has to be on the floor of the ocean. And we are told that nine-tenths of an iceberg is under water - and they gouge large valleys. As the icebergs move down,they gouge large holes, valleys in the ocean floor. MR. BUTT: Thirty feet deep in some places. MR. NEARY: Well, thirty feet deep, the hon. gentleman says.

I believe it is deeper than that in some areas of the Grand Banks. But the caps on the~e wells the blow out preventers and so forth are practically on the floor of the ocaan. So when the iceberg moves along, even though you have moved the rig away from the hole, the production platform is shut down, the icebergs could still gouge the preventer, open up the hole, and bhen you would have an oil spill, could they not? So here is what they are doing now, here is a new idea that the oil companies have, Mr.

Speaker, and this rather startled me when I heard it, they are now testing a drill on the Grand Banks, the bit is thirty feet in diameter. Can you imagine a drill bit thirty feet in 5765

May 30 , 1983 Tape 2716 PK - 2 MR . NEARY: diameter? It is the largest ever made in the world, I am told . A drill thirty feet in diameter . And the reason they are testing it out here,they want to drill down with this thirty foot drill bit , go do\m sixty feet in the floor of the ocean and all of the equipment in connection with production and so forth would be put down then sixty feet,down in that hole . Fantastic, Mr . Speaker! It is absolutely - MR. BUTT: It is a good idea,because basically it is out of the reach of the icebergs . MR . NEARY : Well,that is right . That is why they are doing it .

That is why they have this drill, thirty feet in diametcr ,drilling down sixty feet ,so if they do have to shut off production and the platform moves or if it is damaged , then the iceberg will pass over the hole; if it does gouge a twenty or thirty foot hole in the valley as it 5766

;. May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2717 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: moves along it will not cause an oil spill. That is why they are doing it. But, Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely astounding! Can you visualize in your mind - AN RON. MEMBER: What is that? MR. NEARY: I am talking about something that the bon. gentleman does not understand and does not know about that he should know about, Mr. Speaker. It is simply astounding! I was astounded when I heard about it. It is amazing the technology they are developing. And you know, Mr.

Speaker, what we have to bear in mind in this Province is that these oil companies are pioneering off our coast here. They accumulated an awful lot of experience in the Gulf of Mexico and in the North Sea and off Norway but nothing; Mr. Speaker, the technology is not available on the face of the earth today to deal with production off our shore. PREMIER PECKFORD: Exactly. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is what we have to think about. They are pioneering, they are developing technology as they go.

And this thirty foot drill ?it, it is the first time it has ever been used, I am told, in the world, used off the Coast of Newfoundland. MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: bigger than that. The first time for oil 1 too. The first time for oil? The have made tunnels with them MR. TULK: But not underwater though, did they? MR. NEARY: Not underwater, no. Well, okay, let me qualify what I said, it is the first time that it is being used for offshore oil in the world.

A drill bit thirty feet in diameter drilling down sixty feet into the floor of the ocean so that all the equipment associated with the production of oil can be put down sixty feet, down in the hole. And if an iceberg moves along it will not damage it, it will be too far down for the iceberg to knock the cap off or to 5767

May 30 , 1983 MR . NEARY : MR . TOLK : feet , that is to the bottom? MR . NEARY : MR . TtJLK: will it be? MR . NEARY : ocean down . I do not know. l~R . TULK : MR . NEARY : Tape No . 2717 so - 2 damage the blowout preventer . You say they are going down sixty Yes . How far below the surface Oh, from the surface of the You are talking about the floor . Sixty feet . lt will be sixty feet down in the floor of the ocean . Mr . Speaker, I would like to hear the hon. gentleman comment on this . Per haps the hon . qentleman is not aware of it,because there has been no communication between the oil companies and the federal government and this administration . 1>1R . DINN : (Inaudible) oil . 5768

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2718 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: Well, I hope so, because the hon. gentleman might be able to tell us a little more about this technology. Mr. Speaker, it is mind boggling when you think about it. A drill bit thirty feet in diameter, a little bigger than the head of the hon. gentleman from Fortune Bay - thirty feet in diameter - MR. TULK: And far more - MR. NEARY: That, Mr. Speaker, that is what you call pioneering. We are a new frontier here, as far as oil and gas are concerned. MR. TULK: hazards, does it not? MR. NEARY: That creates all kinds of safety Well, it creates - that is right.

That was the point I was making before my hon. colleague came in. Because we are pioneering offshore on the Grand Banks, right in the heart of the breeding ground for the fish, we have to be extra careful. And I ask bon. gentlemen now to ask themselves this question - ask themselves a simple question: Up to now, Mr. Speaker, have we been conscious, safety conscious as far as damage to the Newfoundland environment is concerned? Up to the time of the Ocean Ranger disaster we were not even safety conscious as far as the people's lives who worked on these rigs were concerned. MR. TULK: They laughed at you. MR.

NEARY: That is right. The bon. gentleman pooh-poohed the dangers in that paTticular matter when we brought it to his attention. But I am not 5769

May 30, 1983 Tape No . 2718 JV - 2 MR . NEARY : going to go back over that . We are now talking about the environment and we are talkin ~ at out the Newfoundland fishery. MR. TU LK: If he would learn something from it it would be all right . MR . NEARY : Well, there is ,unfortunately, a grave lesson to be learned from it . Mr. Speaker, hon . gentlemen should ask themselves one simple question - the member for Placentia (Mr . Patterson) no doubt has thought about this . I doubt if there is a member o£ this House who has not given some thought to the fact of whether or not oil and gas and th e fishery co-exist .

MR . TOLK : I believe the member for Placentia is having second thoughts about all this. MR . PATTERSON : I made that Sl?eech that the hon . gentleman is makingthe year before last. MR.

NEARY : I would hope now that this bill will give the hon. gentleman an opportunity - it will be a springboard for the hon . gentleman to get u9 and repeat what he said because, obviously, that time it fell on deaf ears # But as I recall the hon. gentleman's speech,by the way,and the hon . gentleman did make some valid points and made a good speech I have to say that, it was one of the hon . gentleman 's better speeches,if he recalls 1 and I applauded him for it . 5770

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2719 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman's better speeches,if he recalls,and I applauded him for it. Instead of ltving in the past and talking about resettlernent,for the first time I heard the hon. gentleman talk about the present and the future. He talked about the damage - DR. COLLINS: Did you see the fisheries come back with a Tory (inaudible)? MR. NEARY: What was that again? DR. COLLINS: The Tory (inaudible) off Northern France and Sourther England. The fisheries has come back here. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman said the fishery has come back.

Well, one of the highlights of that propaganda, by the way, that was used when they started drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico was that the fish were corning back. As a matter of fact,they said that fish were breeding better around oil rigs. I do not know what kind of fish they were talking about down there in the Gulf of Mexico,but I was there, I had the opportunity to visit an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico, I was on board a semi­ submersible rig in the Gulf of Mexico. That is more than I can say about Newfoundland. I have been about ten years now trying to get a trip to an oil rig off our coast and, Mr.

Speaker, I am afraid that I have met with complete failure. They do not want anybody out there nosing around afraid we might learn something. But, Mr. Speaker, I .believe it would be very worthwhile if the hon, gentleman could arrange for all members of this House to be flown out to one of these oil rigs so we could take a first-hand look at the situation, at conditions. MR. TULK: They are too partisan for that. MR. NEARY: Too partisan for it. May be they are. But it would be a very worthwhile project to do that. I think every member of this House would like to go and view 5771

May 30, 1983 Tape No . 2719 MJ - 2 ~tR . NEARY: £or himself, see for himself, what is happening offshore . I would like to go . I have been trying to arrange it now for ten years , just to go out in the morning and come back in the ev ening, not necessarily stay overni ght. AN HON . MEMBER : You cannot do it? MR . NEARY : Cannot do it . Mr . Speaker , I would like to do it. If the hon. gentleman can pull a few springs for me, perhaps he can arrang e f or me to tak e a trip out. MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: has the connections. I have been out several times . Well, the hon . gentleman obviously Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Minister respon .sible for th e of fshor c, for Energy should arrange - MR . TULK: \'1ho is that now? 11R . NEARY: (Mr. Marshall ) . MR . TULK: MR . MARSHALL : MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMS: MR . NEARY : The President of the Council <"~ , he is st il l th ~ :r.e, is he? That is right. Be is still there . Would you go out there then? Yes, I would go out . Yes , Mr. Speaker . I mean, it is no laughing matter, it is not a joke . 5772

May 30, 1983 Tape 2720 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about a very serious matter here. MR. l'il'ARREN: The member for Grand Falls thinks it is a joke. MR. NEARY: Yes, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) thinks everything is a joke these days. . But we have to address ourselves to that question, the question being, Can oil co-exist with the fishery? That is the question we have to address our­ selves to. And it is the biggest question facing Newfoundlanders and Labradorians today. MR. TULK: The biggest question that hurts you. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is a large question indeed and something that we should not be treating lightly. And I tell you that I would like to see every member now while we are debating this bill in second reading and all this bill does, by the way, in case the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) was out wh~n I said this, this bill, 'An Act To Amend The Petroleum And Natural Gas Act,' while it is a step in the right direction and we are going to support it, all it does is provide compensation in the event of damage to the fishery. That is all it does. MR. TULK: How much? MR. NEARY: Well, the amount is not specified. MR.

TULK: How did they work it out? MR. NEARY: Well, the way they have worked it out, where you have damage that could be attributable to a drilling company or to an oil company, they have to show evidence that they have financial means up to $40 million to take care of any damage that might be attributable to their actions. MR. TULK: Forty million dollars, is that all? 5773

May 30, 1983 Tape 2720 EC - 2 MR . !\lEARY : But that is only - they do not have to put that up in cash . MR. TULK : If you could prove they did it . MR . NEARY : If you could prove they did it . But then again, where you have non-attributable damage to the environment and to the fishery - and this I do not understand - the amounts would be much less indeed, much less. MR. TULK : Do they say h0\1 much? MR.

NEARY: No, there is no amount specified here because what they are doing here - and the hon. gentleman indicated during second reading that this is only a two year experiment - they are setting up a Fisheries Compensation Board for petroleum-related damages . 'The Lieutenant -Governor in Council may establish a board to be known as tbe Fisheries Compensation Board for Petroleum Ralated Damages consisting of a chairman and six other members . The members appoint ed under subsection (1) shall include representatives of fishermen, fishing companies and the petroleum industry.

The board established under subsection (1) is a body corporate . "The board" means the board established under this

section .' Now, the Compensation furid the hon . gentleman asked me about : 'The board shall administer a fund to compensate fishermen for damage to fishing 5774

May 30, 1983 Tape No .. 2721 NM - l MR. NEARY: equipment or boats involved in the fishery or any losses consequental thereto including lost fishery time in harvesting arising out of petroleum exploration, development or production activities. Compensation and other expenses to fishermen under subsection (

l) and the regulations shall be paid out of a fund to be called The Fisheries Compensation Fund For Petroleum Related Damages that shall be held by the Minister of Finance on behalf of the board. ' Now I presume the money will be put into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, am I right in assuming that? Will the Minister of Finance - MR. TULK: That is a pittance. MR. NEARY: It is pittance and the reason why I am belabouring the matter so much is that it does not meet the problem head on. MR. TULK: Do you realize that in my district alone that $40 million would not cover the losses of a col11Il\unity? MR.

NEARY: $40 million, that is right, would not compensate £or the loss of the fishery on Fogo Island, Mr. Speaker. Do you realize that? MR. TULK: For one year. MR. NEARY: For one year. But what is even more serious than - all this does is provide compensation. MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: introduced the bill. MR. TULK: Where did you qet the $40 million figure? The minister told us that when he That it would be $40 million, if you could prove they did it. MR. NEARY: If you could prove they did it. They have to show evidence. MR. HODDER: Where is the $40 million in the first Place? 5775

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2721 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: There is another point that I do not understand about this,by the way, "damage attributable" -now- MR. TULK: Do you mean to tell me that if an oil rig hits a fishing boat - MR. NEARY: If we have a blowout offshore - MR. TULK: -if you have a blowout ,say,that it is not qoing to be their fault anyway? So nobody can be sued. MR. NEARY: That is right. "Damage attributable and damage non-attributable", now that is going to be very difficult. MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, I cannot hear them. You cannot hear? MR.

MARSHALL: No, it is just that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) - MR. NEARY: It is going to be very difficult to define, Mr. Speaker, and even if you can define it - MR. TULK: Sold the fishery to the oil companies, did they not? MR. NEARY: Well, that is right. This could be classed as a sell-out. It could be. MR. TULK: It is. MR. HODDER: Will this interfere with any legal claim that a fisherman might have against the oil company? MR. NEARY: Nell, that is another question, will this now be the direction that the fishermen will go if they have claims? Will they be barred from taking individual action? MR.

HODDER: MR. NEARY: No, it was on the radio this morning. - they will not be barred from taking other action through the courts against oil companies for damage? MR. MARSHALL: I will explain it to you . MR. NEARY: Well I hope so, because the bon. gentleman certainly did not do a very good job of explaining it in his introductory remarks. I know the hon. gentleman is anxious to 5776

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2 721 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: get the House closed, and I know his colleagues are breathing down his neck and saying, "Will she close today or will she close tomorrow?" 5777

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2922 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: close tomorrow. But we are dea~ing, Mr. Speaker, here with one of the most serious problems that we have been faced with in our whole history. MR. TULK: close. MR. NEARY: Give him his answers before we Well, I think every member of this House should comment on this bill. And I know the han. gentleman has silenced them all over there. The hon. gentleman will now wish to get up in second reading and close the debate but I am sure my colleagues who represent fishing districts will want to have a few words on this bill. I am sure my colleague from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) would like to have a few words on this bill. The han. gentleman has been out on very important business during the afternoon but I commend him to read Bill No. 54, to provide compensation for fishermen who may be affected by damages through oil drilling or oil production onshore, near shore or offshore. MR. WARREN: Especially for the Labrador Coast. MR. NEARY: That is why I commend it to the han. gentleman,because of the drilling that is going on off Northern Labrador. Mr.

Speaker, the first question we have to ask ourselves,and then once we agree on the answer to that question then we have to ask ourselves, what steps can we take to see that fish and oil can exist side by side. So first of all we have to ask ourselves that question, can fish and oil exist side by side? No doubt overwhelmingly the answer will be yes.

I think members will have doubts, they may feel very nervous about saying, 'Well, yes, fish and oil can co-exist', and they would be very nervous about it , but I believe in the interest of getting the oil field into production, getting the economy going, creating jobs for unemployed Newfoundlanders and so on, I believe the majority of members of this House could be swayed to the 5778

May 30, 1983 Tape No . 2722 so - 2 MR . NEARY : thinking that yes, oil and fish can co-exist . I believe I would be one of the ones who \vOuld be swayed by that argument, Mr . Speaker. I had to speak on Saturday - MR. HODDER : I have to say something now, I would need to see more evidence than that. MR. NEARY : My hon . colleague says he ha ·s got to see a lot more evidence before he could be swayed that way . Well, Mr . Speaker, I could probably be swayed very grudgingly, and the reason I say that, Hr . Speaker, I would probably not hesitate , like I am doing ,if we saw evidence of prevention , if we saw the evidence 5779

May 30, 1983 Tape 2723 PK - l MR. NEARY: that the technology is available to deal with oil spills off our shore. But the technology is not there. Will members let that sink into their brains, that there is not enough technology developed on the face of the earth today to deal with a major oil spill on the Grand Banks? MR. WARREN: They could not even cope with a little Bunker c spill at Cape Race. MR. NEARY: That is right. We have seen what happened in this Province in the case of just minor spills on shore, Mr. Speaker. Everybody panics. And, Mr.

Speaker, we are very, very concerned on this side of the House, and we have been for some time, as I am sure certain hon. gentlemen there opposite are concerned. The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) reminded us that two or three years ago when he made a speech on this very matter, and perhaps the hon. gentleman may wish to address the House again on this bill. It certainly provides a good opportunity for us to focus attention on the number one problem involved in the drilling offshore for gas and oil, the number one problem which is the threat to the environment.

Most of the power in this bill, like all other bills brought in by this administration, is in the hands of the Cabinet, the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council. And there is no provision on this Board, by the way, for an outsider. The members appointed shall include representatives of fishermen, fishing companies and the pertroleum industry, everybody with a vested interest. There should be somebody on this Board who does not have a vested interest in the fishery or the petroleum industry, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Including representatives of just the fishermen. There are no fishermen on there. MR.

NEARY: That is right, representatives of the fishermen. 5780

May 30, 1983 Tape 2723 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: As I indicated earlier to the House, we will support this bill. We are not happy over the fact that it is has not gone far enough, Mr. Speaker. It is a good bill as far as it. goes, but it merely scratches the surface and it is going to be hard to enforce. It is going to be hard to define damage that is attributable 5781

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2724 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: damage that is attributable and damage that is non-attributable. But, Mr, Speaker, what it points UTJ is that sarebody in the administration, somebody in that government is anticipating in the not too distant future that a problem may arise, that an accident will happen that will cause all kinds of damage to our environment and to our fishery 1 and if that happens, Mr. Speaker, it will be a sad day for Newfoundland. If we ever have a major oil spill on the Grand Banks you can kiss the Newfoundland fi~hery good-bye,and it is bound to happen.

They told us that the Ocean Ranger was like the Titanic, she was unsinkable,but she is gone and took eighty-four lives with her. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: into that now. MR. Wl\RREN: MR. NEARY: And this government is to blame. No· l~ell, I am not going to get I would say so. And, Mr, Speaker, the same thing will happen to our fishery and to the environment if hon, gentleman do not wake up, You know, if hon. members knew the facts they would not be able to sleep at night, Mr. Speaker, They would not be able to sleep if they knew that,every day drilling is going on off this coast, our fishery is being threatened.

How many ways can I say it, Mr, Speaker, to drive it home to hon. gentleman? I know the Minister re­ sponsible for the Petroleum Directorate and the offshore (Mr. Marshall) does not have seemed to have grasped that serious problem yet. The hon. gentleman is over there now in a panic looking at me and saying, 'What time are you going to finish? Why do you not sit down?' I can read the hon. gentleman's mind. 5782

J:.• May 30, 1983 Tape 2725 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as small-minded as the hon. gentleman is, the fact of the matter is that this is too serious a matter to just whiz it through the House, force it through the House at the last minute. Mr. Speaker, I notice now that the churches, the heads of the denominations in this Province are becoming more actively involved in social matters and to that I say, Hear, hear! I hope they will just not restrict their activities to housing and to unemployment and that sort of thing.

I hope they will get deeply involved and share the concern of this side of the House, anyway, about the potential threat to our fishery and to our environ­ ment, Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, that is the number one priority when we are talking about the offshore, when we are talking about the future of this Province and we are talking about our natural resources. The number one priority is to protect the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery, not let anything happen to it. AN HON. MEMBER: It is very important. MR. NEARY: It is the most important thing, Mr. Speaker.

We have been allowing the drilling rigs and the oil companies to go out on the Grand Banks and o~f the coast of Labrador, Mr. Speaker, with no real restrictions placed on them as to procedures, how they should proceed with the drilling operations 5783

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2726 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: offshore. They are out there in a hostile environment, exposed to the elements of the North Atlantic, the savage storms of the North Atlantic,and the administration just lays back, Mr. Speaker, take the oil company's word for it that they are taking all of the measures they can to avoid a catastrophe on the Grand Banks. I put the question a number of times to influencial oil people, drilling people and to the Canadian Coast Guard and asked them point blank, 'Can you cope with a major oil spill off our coast if we have a blowout?' And the answer is no, we cannot.

They cannot even deal with a medium-sized oil spill 1 I would suspect. They went down here, as I said, a few years ago in Freshwater Bay.and they took out a little boom and a net and they put it around a make-believe oil spill there in Freshwater Bay, which,as Your Honour knows, was on a day they had ideal conditions. MR. WARREN: They have not even cleaned up the one in Makkovik yet and it is a year and a half now. MR. NEARY: They have not even cleaned up the one in Makkovik yet a year and a half ago. And, Mr.

Speaker, at that time they were training members of the LSPU Union, but then a dispute arose and they withdrew their servi~es. DR. COLLINS : Your friend Christine Fagain says, 'Boom on. To hell with others.' MR. NEARY: That is really smart now, Mr. Mr. Speaker. You know, Mr. Speaker, would you not expect better from a professional man? You would expect better. Obviously the hon. gentleman has been contaminated by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) and a few more of his colleagues on the other side. 5784

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 2726 so - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about pollution here, and I could think of no hon. gentleman more qualified when we are talking about pollution than the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). We are talking about the greatest threat to the Newfoundland fishery and it is not marketing, 5785

May 30, 1983 Tape 2727 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: greatest threat to the Newfoundland fishery is not marketing, not quality of fish, not productivity, the greatest threat is the offshore oil drilling. And it would be worth our while in this House , Hr. Speaker, to take a few hours now that we are debating this bill, not rush to close the House down, let each hon. gentleman get up and state his views,Mr. Speaker.

I am sure they must have thought about it as much as I have and I have thought about it quite a bit, I am not just standing here now trying to fill in time, trying to stall the closing of the House, I am not doing that. Mr. Speaker, we are genuine and sincere when we express our concern about this matter of pollution, this threat to our environment and to the Newfoundland fishery. We are quite sincere about it. We are glad to have the opportunity in debating this bill to be able to bring it up, Mr. Speaker.

I will be down on Saturday, I think it is, speaking at the Youth Advisory Council who are having a conference in St. John's and the topic that they wanted me to appear on a panel on was this very matter of can oil and the fishery co-exist~ MR. PATTERSON: No. It cannot. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) says,' No. It cannot.' He may be right. Maybe we are gambling with our future,and I do not mean gambling with the courts or gambling with the jurisdiction, we are gambling with our future. You know, Mr.

Speaker, you can have the best equipment in the world, you are bound to have an accident. If they keep drilling on the Grand Banks long enough and we get into production and we start producing oil, there is bound to be an accident. Now, you could say, well 1we will develop all the safeguards we 5786

May 30, 1983 Tape 2727 PK - 2 MR. NEARY : can to keep the effect of that accident down to a minimum , they can say that, and they can brainwash people into believing that, Mr . Speaker, but the fact of the matter is that that potential danger is lurking there day and night, and it will become more serious when production starts. We have come pretty close,I understand, to having blowouts on the Grand Banks, we have had bl01vout preventers damaged . There a couple of years ago I asked 5787

May 30, 1983 Tape No. 272 8 MR. NEARY: a few questions of the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) when he was Minister of Enerqy, about rigs that had to disconnect during storms, damaged the blowout preventer - HR. WARREN : A close call in Labrador. NM - 1 MR. NEARY: - and a close call in Labrador. Mr. Speaker, we do not know yet how much damage has been done on the floor of the ocean. There may be seepage, there may be leakage there now that we do not even know about. There was a time when the situation was not monitored,as the hon. gentleman knows, as it is now.

And the hon. gentleman may be bored with what I am saying, this may be all very boring for the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker - MR. WARREN: He is not too bright. MR. NEARY: - he may not comprehend wh