Vol.1 NO. 36 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 AM – FRIDAY, November 23, 1979

November 23 1 1979 The House met a~ 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tape 1309 EC - l Order, please~ A matter h~ been brought to my attention with respect to an exhibit presented yesterday by the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) in presenting a petition.

Beauchesne, page 117, paragraph 333 1 clearly states ~~at it is not in order to produce exlu.hits of any sort in the Chamber; and a precedent set in our own House, reference Hansard, June 21, 1972, where the Speaker ruled it was not in order to present an exhibit.l'herefore , I would rule that it was out of order to present the exhibit during the presentation of the petition by the hon. the member for Bay of Islands and that the hon. member's bottle of water be returned to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Oh, oh! The hen. the Minister of Municipal Affairs Mr.

Speaker, in view of your ruling, which I agree with entirely, would you please direct the hon. member to remove that bottle from my desk? - because that is where it finally ended. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Oh, oh~ STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. Mr. Speaker, yesterday in reply to a question by the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout), ! indicated that the government is now in the process of forming a task force to be sent to the area.

I now wish to inform the House t:hat the task force has been fomed, and to inform the House of the people '"'ho will be on the task force and travelling to the area in ~~e next number of days. Mr. Hoddinott will be :he chairman. He is the Assistant Deputy :tinister of Forestrv in operations and regional servicest Mr. John Tibbetts who is ~,_e Director of Development in t.'le ]ewfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. :o~.r. Fred Cook, Director of Susiness Development 1.n ::.he Department of Rural ;..gricultural and :iorthern Development; 3282

~ovember 23, 1979 Tape 1309 EC - 2 Mr. Robert Pelley, Director of ii'orese Products Development, Depart.rnent of Forest...ry; and Mr. David Sharpe, Regional Resource Director of the Oepartment of Forestry for the area. The task force will be able to draw on th.e expertise in other deparements, if required. They expece to travel to the area in the next number of days, hopefully around the firse week of December, and to hold meetings with the groups and organizations in the area. Any persons wishing to contact the eask force may do so by calling Mr. StirlJ.ng Hoddinott at his office in St. John 1 s and to arrange metings with the task force when they travel to the area. I have asked 3283

:lovember 23, 1979 Tape No. 1310 SD - l :·lP. • J • :10 RGAH : .:."te Chairman and the Task Force to arrange, if at all possible, to have che report back to government withL~ a two month period. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) The han. member for Baie Verte - Hhite Bay. !-iR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, I welcome very much the announcement. made in the tJuestion Period yesterday and in more detail here this morning by the Minister of Lands and Forests {Hr. J. Morgan) as it concerns the Task Force to look into and hopefully make recommendations concerning the serious economic situation in Roddickton.

I am very pleased, very delighted, very happy that the minister and the government have decided to put. in place the Task Force,made up of a very reputable group of people,! might add. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Stirling Hoddinott and the other names of the people on that committee I think certainly have the ability and the expertise to search out and to lock into the problems that are existing in Roddickton. I think it is the only way to do it.

The minister and I have talked about it on a number of occasions, and I th~nk ~t ~s tne only way to approach it is for an intiependent 1 outside group of people to go in and to have a look at the situation. I am delighted the govern:nent have chosen to do that. I hope that - !-IR, ROBERTS: :1R. T. RIDEOUT: 4\N HON. aEMBER: IiR. T. IUDEOUT: in my district. ;·1R. E:. ROBERTS: :·lain 3rook as well. ~1R. :10RGA."' : :"m.. T • .:UDEOUT: Did he ~ention ~ain Brook? Pardon? Did ne mention Main Brook? I did not mention :-fain Bl:ook~it is not. They should have a look at Right, they 'Nill. Okay.

I oo hope :.hat the government will look -;ery seriously at •,.;hatever reco:r.menaations the Task Force ::<ay bring back. :ione of us, of course, can att:e:..":pt to out-guess ::hen 3284

:iovember 23, 1979 '!'.:..pe No. 1310 SD - 2 MR. T. RIDEOUT: or co guess before they move 1 bu~ certainly there will be recommendations 1 I would expect,and hope that the government will take the Task Force very seriously and hopefully all of us together might be able to do something about it. I am very happy that the minister has made the announcement; he did it yesterday and he did it again today in the ministerial statement which shows the seriousness of the problem and we all hope, I am sure, that the whole matter can be straightened out to the best advantage of the people in the area. ER• SPEAKER: (Mr.

Simms) DR. J. COLLINS; The hon. Minister of Finance. Hr. Speaker, I intend to make a ministerial statement before t.,_e adjournment of the House today but it is not possible for me to do so at this particular moment, it would not be appropriate for me to do so at this particular moment1 but I do stand now to state ~t! will rise at 12:30 p.m. to ask leave of the House 1 if I maY;, to make such. a statement, And it is my understanding 1 Mr. Speaker 1 that hen. members opposite will see fit to agree to ~his and it is my intention to supply the hen. Leader of the Opposition with a copy of the statement beforehand.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. <'iR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the minister has perhaps said what I am ab:lut to say 1 but I simply want to record that the Premier had the courtesy to consult my friend and colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. We have agreed for our part to allow the House to revert to statements. I tb.ink it is 12:30 p.m. 1 the time that was suggested .. The minister ..,ill :nake his statement and we will respond in the appropriate way t.~en. MR. SPEAKER; So that is agreea by leave. 3285

ucveu..car 1979 '•ao-e :.o. 1311 IJ\oi - l O!l.hl. ·,;U::STI 0:-1~ ~ue non. Leader of the Opposition. ~lit. o. J'AMI;:;sau: nr. ~peakwr, a question for the non. the Prwnier. It relates to the dOCUIDellt which \oiali publl5lled some time ago on interprovincial relations and t.herefcra is asked of ilim in hls capacity as liinister of Intergove:tn!llBntal Affairs. 'l'here are, befora the Government of Cana9ec! nl.llllber of ;;>rnp.o,lials, .--- 8CI:Ie of which have oaan made public at least in a general way by the Government of liewfoundland.

Am I correct in assuming that further moveDJ.ent or any further motion an these, with regard to gatting decisions, will now aw<&it the br.inginq down of tile Federal E>udget and ~,at we will presumably hear in the Federal Eudget, for example, what kinds of general SUI!lS have been 11111de available to various department:S !nd from that po~ on you will proceed to ·detailed negotiation? Is tn.at the liit:uation:i' AA.

SP~R: The hen. the Premier. f.RL'U!.R PECAFORD: I thank the Leader of t.ha Opposition for nis 'iU&Stion. 'ies, t.hat is the si tuat.l.on. 'lllere are three 01\EE aqreem.ents !lOW alJ. cno~ negotiations and details a.re done, &nd they .are just awaiting the .funding and they a:re ready to go a.s soon as the Budget is brougilt: delffl.As I understand it,. there ill the interim agreement on Nordc:c for a !lEtS . --yeu until we put a f ive year plan t.o<;ether, which has now lJeen put together and nas been approved ~y Cabinet to go as tue longer term aqre8JIII!nt !or Nordcor there is the Couta.l Labrador agreement, which is a very, very i!!lportant one a.nci which bas wan fully ntgotiatad and we are , just waiting for the split in funding; and tnera is the forestry -ag=ement.

We =ticitJate ~lat within the ne:r.t month to t-.,o trontils tJlat ,... -those thrue can be very quickly t.aken carl! of and tnen the ot.1er one s, ·.onicil are .;till 1.n the negoti .. tion :;tage , can move up :'ron , t:ne.rc, especiallY a roaw; agreerrer.t tnat ·..;e talked abo ut a fflw cia:,•,; aso and s=e of t:nc ¢& --other u:>i:-cre;;n e ; ~ ::- ee::-.enes. That. is t.'le ~ inc of ;>roces,; "'e ,;e e 1 t.'losa three, -;e tt: i n ~ '::leo , out: oi t-;1~ ;,;ay rather ~uickly L<!ca~e ":.i><;;J 3286

':,:.:;.Fe ~lo. 1311 ::;;; - the o~~er tnree or four that we arc ready to move on ~~d negotiate. :1R. D. JAHil:.SON: !-tR. SPEAUR: (SIHMS) tne opposition. :·!R. 0. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. A supplementarJ, the han. Leader of If my memory serves me right 1 tne three to which the hon. Premier referred are ones that has been in the works for some considerable time.oa they in fact constitute new money in the sense of being additions to the General Development Agreement or were these encompassed by the agreement as it has been 1 in broad tern.s, in existence for the last several. years?

Is this tr.ere!y an extension of those? If that be the case/could the hen. Premier indicate whd.t new initiatives might go beyond these three? J:1R. SPEAKER: The non. Premier. FRl:.HIER PECXFORD: These are under t:.he broad parameters of the General Development:. Agreement. We are ·.raiting now -and I think Mr. HacKay had something on to eliminate the 26th. of November to another date for me to meet with· him because ;,.e has gone tnrough a processsing of 3287

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1312 NM- :!. ?REM!ER PECKFORD: deciding on whether che mandate of DREE should be changed somewhat, that you can allow or make eligible other kinds of submissions and this kind of thing. So we do not know at this point in time just what kind of money DREE·will have,number one, although the Prime Minister has said, and the ' ~ ~ President of the Treasury Board and the Minister of Finance, that they intend to have an agency like DREE and are prepared to fund it substantially.

We do not know whether they are going to change any of the philosoph~ if you will, or idea which set up the general development agreement in the beginning. So we really do not know y~t just whether it will remain that way or not. The important ~~ing far us is, one, we would like to see some changes in the process chat is being used and perhaps same of the criteria being applied and a more expeditious movement through the.9ystem Mr. McKay is looking at these things and that is why I want to speak to him to see whethe~ in fact, we can get some changes to the general development agreement.

But as it stands right now 1that remains as was and these agreements come under the ambit of the criteria established under the general development agreement. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence and that of my colleagues, there are a couple of other supplementary questions in an effort to get some idea of where the government's financial planning may be far 1980 and perhaps even beyond. For example 1in the document to which I made reference earlier, that is, the federal-provincial working paper, there was a reference to $91 million.

My supplementury question, and if I may I will incorporate two at the same time, are the three agreements to which the hon. ?remier has referred part of that $91 million, which is t.he goal you have set for 1980, or would t..~at be ,in fact part of previous commitments·~· :.tR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Premier. ?RE!>l!ER ?ECK:'ORD: I would have to preface it by say1.ng that ! ~~ not sure here, ><Jill have to get some information on it, 3288

:lovember 23, 1979 Tape No. 1312 NH - 2 but I think in that dcc~~ent we ~ere referring to these agreements already in the pipeline to which everybody had agreed, like those three that I mentionedfand are not the additional amounts of money that we will be looking for en the DREE agreements for 1980.

So we had anticipated and still do~ hopefully by the end of December or very early January, for those three agreements of,say 1 in the order of $100 million , it could be that $91 million that was mentioned then,! guess - $90 million to SlOO million to be part of this year, at least in the approval- the cash flow, as we all know, carries over f~om one year to the next-and that next year would see additional CREE agreements and additional tens of millions approved tr~ough the DREE arrangment. :t.P... SPE!I.KER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR.

JAMIESON: All I can say is that I hope that the han. the Premier 1 s hopes, and I share them, are not counterbalanced by ~he doom and gloom of the Minister of Finance of Canada~ One final - there are many questions ! will ask,but ! will refrain and just ask this one final question 4 !twas not clear to me from the document in the question whether the Harbour Grace supe~~rt was, i~olve_~ in the $91 million, whether it was involved in the three projects. !t is clear now it was not one of the projects that is in the pipeline. 3289

~cvember 23, 1979 Tape 1313 xr. Jamieson: could the hon. the Premier therefore tell me or tell the House where the negotiations stand on Harbour Grace superport or whether we can expect any movement on it in the immediate future? MR. SPEAKER( SIMMS): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Well.wnat I talked about,are the three. ?K - 1 1-lordco Forestry, and Coastal Labrador - agreed to by everybody L'1 the Federal service- - MR.

JAMIESON: PREMIER PECKFORD: TheY have been in the works for a long ~e. everybody in the Provincial Service and there is no more need for any negotiation anywhere and they are before Treasury Board. Bang! And we are just waiting for the money. That is over and done with. Then there is the superport and a number of other ones which are somewhere in the system, and have not got total approval by everybody. And the one that ~he hen.

Leader of the Opposition refers to is the one at Harbour Grace becaUse of the present position of the Federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans as it relates to the Northern cod stock and other related species uoing with the viability or the lack thereof of that concept. And that is the problem right there right now. MR. JAMIESON: t'ffi. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the bon. Leader of the Opposition, followed by the member for Torngat Hountains. MR.. JAHIESON : way, Mr. Speaker.

In other ~~rds, may I put it to you this First of all, there is not only not any agree."t!ent with regard to the Federal/Provincial governments on the concept of a central port 1 •J.t1d since there is no such agree."t'.ent on such a concept between ~he Federal and the Provincial governments clearly there cannot be any movement of any serious consequence with regard tc finding out where the Feder~l funds for that particular project are going co come from? Is ::hat a .fair conclusion? :--!R. SPEAKER: The hon. r:he Premier. 3290

November 23, 1979 Tape 1313 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, they will come £rorn1 obviously, because the application is before DREE, through the Department of DREE. But when they will come is depenl.ient upon - I t.'link most cec?lA lll!ree in theory, with the c?ncept~ it is the cracticalities nf ~ce~eg t~ additional amounts of fish. And given the present position of the Federal Government enunicated through the Department of Fisheries and oceans on access to Northern cod,that inhibits and impinges negatively upon the flow through the system of that application. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR.

WARREN: The hon.member for Torngat Mountains. Hr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett), probably it could be a Federal matter, but it is concerning the motor vessel Bonavista that-want aground between Postville and Makkovik a couple of days ago. And I understand at present there are twenty-five passengers stranded at Makkovik an:d are unable to get to Hopedale because of the ice conditions, the ice is not safe enough for Labrador Airways to land fixed wing aircraft.

Has the minister in conjunction with CN Marine and the Federal Oepartment 1_ are there any moves afoot to have those passengers moved to ~opedale by helicopter( Tlult~ is the only means to get them in there' could the minister give me an answer? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Conmunications. 329:1

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1314 NM - 1 MR. 3RETT: Mr. Speaker, I heard ~~at news on the radio on my way to Clarenville last night and I got back here in the building at nine-thirty this morning, .and I have not been talking to my Director of Transportation. I can only assume that he is aware of the situation. I am not sure if we are trying to make any arrangements or not but I would be happy to take this question at notice and I can assure the hon. member that when the House closes now I will be on to it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, the hon. member for Yes, Mr. Speaker, the second

part is that also on that boat there was mail for Davis Inlet and for Hopedale, which the residents in those communities had not received for the past two weeks. As you know 1 this time of the year it is a very crucial period with the beginning of the unemployment insurance and so on and having not received their mail for the last two or three weeks, this was also on the Bonavista,and I understand it is just left at Makkovik at the present time. And the people cannot get their mail in or cannot get their mail out from those two communities in particular.

So I would like for him also to take ~~at into consideration. But my supplementary is, in light of the view that the lives of twenty-five passengers were at stake when the Bona vista went .:1ground off Arctic Point in Z.abrador, and in conversation with several people from mr district last night and yesterday that the Bonavista was 'about one half mile off course when she went aground,and also I understand that the weather at the time was ve~J, very bad, if the minister is not aware of this could he follow it up with the CN Marine and with the federal authorities and see what action can be taken? >LP...

SPEAKER: The han. :.iinister of Transportation and Communication. >tR. BRETT: ~1r. Speaker, the same answer would apply ~o that part of the question as to the first one. 3292

Nove~ber 23, 1979 MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : HR. NEARY: Tape No. 1314 The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the environment, Sir. Would the minister tell the House whether or not the government has designated any particular areas or spots in Newfoundland as dumps for offshore oil spills? NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in areas where there are oil spills coming in and where the oil is being collected, our environmental men do go down to that particular piece of coast­ line· or town, as it might be, and they do designate a dump where the oil gobs have been picked up in plastic bags and these bags are taken to a dump site and that site is selected by our environmental officials. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for Would the hon. minister care to indicate the number of dump sites that have been designated in newfoundland for collecting and dumping oil?

And would the hon. minister care to tell the House where these dump sites are located? AN HON. MEMBER: One is in LaPoile. 3293

tlovember 2.3, 1979 Tape No. 1315 SD - 1 !>!RS.a. NEWHOOK: I would like to take notice of that, Mr. Speaker., I .really could not tell just off t.,e top of my i1ead where all of these are but I know they have been designated as and when necessary. XH.. S. NEARY: hen. - MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. S. NEARY: !-ir. Speaker, I gather then from the Is this your final­ No, not final, Sir. - minister that there had been a number of sites designated, the minister is going to undertake to get the information for the House.

Would the minister also undertake to find out if on 1 the location of these dump sites there are any bakeapple grounds, there are any wildlife or any blueberrJ grounds or any marshberries on the - MR. MORGAN: Any mushrooms, •steve'? MR. S. ~EARY: Mr. Speaker, why does not the bon. gentleman go down to Bonavista and look after his beer tavern? SOME HON ·• MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member from LaPoile has his supplementary question, I believe. MR.

S. :-lEARY: Would the minister care to find out all the information that I just asked for in relation to these dump sites and - this is the first indication we h,ave had, by the way; the federal government have been very tight-lipped and refused to give the information on where these dump sites are located.

They say it is the responsibility of the Province - give the informatior., where they are located, are they on swamps or are they in areas where you have lots of gravel, lots of fill and so forth and what is involved, '•met.her it is backapple grounds, marshberry grounds 1 whether t.~e wildlife is affected, would che niniste.:: get all this information fer the House? AR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~lini.>ter of: Consumer Affairs ~r.a £nviror~en~. Yes, :'lr. Speaker, t would be ·:ery 3294

:lovember 23, l9i9 Tape No. 1315 SD - 2 HRS. H. NEWHOOK: deligh~ed to do this but to the best of my knowledge I think ~hese are already designated dump sites or adjacent to ~~em. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr .. Simms) MR. L. STIRLING: The hon. member for Bonavista North. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question far the Minister of Transportation and Commtmications, It has to do with the long talked ab:lut causeway to Greenspond. I \0/Cnder if the minister can bring us up to date on the present s~ate of the discussions on that causeway to Greenspond? MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

C. BRE'IT: Hr. Speaker, it now appears that a causeway from the mainland to Greenspond Island i::> economically feasible and we have been discussing that with the federal government in the last little while. I think the hen. memberf I think what he ~ants me to - his question really is are we going to close off the tickle completely or what? The answer to that is no. That was proposed in the beginning because to allow an opening that some of the fishermen in the area are requestingJ and the federal government suggested,would make the cost of the causeway prohibitive.

We have gone back with a counter proposal and we have suggested that the cost would not be prohibitive if we have an opening twenty feet high from low water mark and seventy­ ewe feet wide from low water mark. So this is where it stands at the momen~. Some objections have been voiced by fishermen up in that area; only this morning I met with a delegation from the Island and they are in the galleries right now.

I think our counter pt·oposal would be sufficient for smaller boats, the people who fish for squidf lobster, this sort of thing 1 but it would not permit lcngliners to use the opening, it would be too ~11 for that.But it is only about ten minutes to go around ~~e Island. So we are discussing ~t with the federal government, we think it is ~conomically feasible and I ~ope we can do it. 3295

November 23, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) ""'~mber for aonavista North. !1R. STIRLING: Tape 1316 EC - l A supplementary, :he hon. the Mr. Speaker, I do thank the minister. I haC indicated I was going to ask that second question, and it is one of the supplementaries I can now pass on. In view of the announcement already made by the Minis te:: of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) , reporting on the hydro prospects this year of putting in elecuic:i ey, the proper connection there, one of the factors that was causing that to be held up was the decision on the causeway. ~ l)>:, there any indication that we will be able to proceed with the causeway in the next construction season, or at least the decision to proceed with the causeway so that the other things can follow in the next construction season? MR. SPEAKER: and Communications~ MR. BRETT: The hen. the Minister of Transportation My last correspondence with the federal minister was on the 20th of October, I believe.

I have not received a reply since, but we are hoping that we will soon get an answer because there is Sl million allocated for repairs or whatever to the ferry terminals on that ferry service, ana certainly, if we intend to build a causeway, then we will not spend the Sl million on upgrading the terminals. So I think it is fairly it~q?ortant that we get a decision from the federal government, hopefully before the end of the fiscal year, which would then help us to decide.. If we are not going ahead. with the causeway 1 then we certainly have to upgrade the ferry terminals.

We are hoping to get an answer probably within the next month or so. MR. STIP.LING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementarf. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. the member for Bonavista North, followed by the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. STIRLING: Do I take it that from the provincial government's point of view, providing you can get ~~e federal government 1 s okay that funds at least are allocated in the next construction season to proceed with it, that ~~e provincial government has made a cctr~oment to proceed if ~~ey can get federal government approval and financing? 3296

:-Jovember 23, 1979 Tape 1316 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Hinister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETl': No, Mr. Speaker, that is not so, This is all happening at a department level, not at a Cabinet level, not at the government level, .so. if we got approval from the federal government then I would assume that it will be worked out between Intergovernmental Affairs, but there is no money allocated as such, not at the moment. MR. SPE.AJCER: MR. LUSH: The hen. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, my question is also directed to the Minister of Transportation and CommWlications (Mr.

Brett) • It is related to the subsidization of the intra-provincial ferry services. I understand that in this year there was a change made in the subsidization system, and my question to the minister is 1 Could he briefly indicate to the House how the subsidy system is now structured in terms of wj,ich government, the federal government or the provincial. government, which government pays what? MR. SPEAKER: and Communications. M. BRETT: we are working on a five year - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Transportation I was not aware of any change this year. We are going to get it, I believe.

Yes 1 we are trying to. the federal government accepted a base year, 1977 to 1978, and five years after that t.l;.ey are geeting out of the ferry syseem altogether. It is operating on a 75/25 per cent deal now with the federal government paying iS per cent of ~e cost. Included in the agreement was X number of millions of dollars to upgrade the ferry terminals, but: I am not aware of any change this year from that:. MR. LUSH: Supplement:ary, :1::. Speaker. :1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. :1R. LUSH: That: is ·:.he change.

Whether it: was this year or t.he year before last, t:.'lae is t."le c.'"tange, 3297

November 23, 1979 Tape 1317 PK - 1 :1r. Lush: because,previous to thac, my understanding was that the Federal Government paid the thing full, 100 per cent. And now it is 75/25. HR. ?.OBERTS: {inaudible). MR. LUSH: That was the one that 'Morgan• negotiated In view of the fact that as the system is now changed whereby the Province pays 25 per cent and the Federal Government pays, 75 per cent towards the cost of operating these ferries, under whose jurisdiction now do these ferries fall?

Previously it was under the CTC, and I am thinking in terms of tansuring that regulations are e:.t\forced respecting the safety and the adequacy of these ferries, and with respect to fares. Which body now controls that? Is it still under the CTC? But in view of the fact that the Province now has a controlling interest in it, do they have some control? MR. SPEAKER {.SIMMS) : The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETTt I am not sure if the increase in fa.rea. comes under the CTC or not. But I know the safety, this end of it does.

If there is an increase in the rates being charged by a ferry as of the beginning of this agreement,then the Federal Government will not share it. They will pay 75 per cent of the cost of the ferry service as it was in the base year, which was 1977-1978. Any increase in the five years from that, the Provincial Goverr~ent would have to pay the full cost. HR. LUSH: A supplementary, ~x. speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Has it not been a concern to the minister that these intraprovincial, ferry services are under the CTC, which is so far removed :rom the Province?

I ask the question, of course, because I have a ferry service in my own district in St. Brendan's, :1nd when there is a complaint about the system, you know, these people 3298

November 23, 1979 Tape 1317 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: to go to Ottawa is just too, too far away. And so my question to the minister, has he not undertaken to see that these ferry services are put under some ~rovincial regulatory body? HR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): communications. MR. BRETT: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of areas in which the Federal Government has complete jurisdiction, and we would like to have some, if not, all of it, and the CTC is only one. We would like also to have some of the jurisdiction that the ~~TC has.

Once we are paying the full shot fo::: the ferries then I would assume that we will responsible for them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER! Well 1 U there are no other members standing to ask a question,! will allow the hen. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) another supplementary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. LUSH: The subsidization obviously is offered because the margin of profit and the operat·ing of these ferries is not very much. So I am wondering what happens in the event 11 where a ferry service is inadequate? Arethere any special considerations?

Are there any special grants whereby a new ferry can be purchased? And I ask the question again because of the inadequacy of the St. Brendan's ferry service. And they have petitioned the minister in terms of getting some higher subsidy or higher grant or a grant to purchase a new subsidy. So are there any special considerations for this? 3299

... :.ver.Ler 23, 1979 ::,:,.pe ;.o. 1318 m;- 1 THe non. :i.inister of '.transportation and Corr.rr.unications. :!R. ERt'IT: Hr. :,peaker, we woulti be the last ones to say Ulat every ferry service we have in the Province is adequate.

L think ~st people who travel on ~~ese ferries will tell you t.."lat they are not adequate and they are always com.t.ng to govern- ment for larger ferries or better service, whatever, and we are very happy to negotiate with the owners in every case. l~d,of course, \ if per chance the service is increased/whether it il:l uuyl.ns a ;;,ew ferry or whatever 1 ehen the government subsidies automatically go up. MR. SPEAKER: 'Ihe han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle,followed by the han. member for ~indsor suc:hans. MR. E.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, now that my colleague for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) has finished, I have a G:Uostion for the hen. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. It is a .-~ matter for which I gave her notice several days ago, she must be in a position to answer this now. lhe question is wi~~ respect ' to the possibility of the' substance ?CB~ at :it.

Anthony where there was fornerly an American Air Force radar site comparable to the ones which existed formerly at Hopedale anci cartwright on the coast: of Labrador 1 and since there have .,_een PCB found in Hopedale and Cartwright·, and since I am told they are a very dangerous substance, there is naturally, ~orne concern in ~,e Zt. Antnony area as to whether any sucn material or substance was used at St. Anthony when the American Air Force ·,.,~r..e there.

I •,.;onder if the =~nister could tell us whatever she might knew abou~ this 1 and if she i1as not had a cnance to get a report 1 could she t:ell us wnen •.,;e :r.isnt: be in a position? 'There is sor..e considerable puLlic ccnern in the St. ;,nthony area and r .. would .:;ay to tne ninister that cne site at: st. Anthony is accessible to the 2uOlic~ you know, Eeople can

·'•OVCr,ber 23, 1979 1ape 110. 1318 ;.,w - 2 aR. E. ROBERTS. get up cnere if they wish and ~o if til ere were substances there, thera certainly would be a potential danger and some action augnt to be taken to correct it. ~R. SP~R (SIMMS): and ~~vironment. HRS • li. NEW1iOOK: The han. Hinister of Consumer Affairs Yes, Mr. Speaker, our environmental officer was in St. Anthony around the end of October. He did inspect the outside of tnis particular facility and he reported that ~ere was no sign of any PCB oil !lpills or tin fact 1 any PCB transformers.

He did say that the buildings were in very deteriorated conditions, he did not go inside because to him it appeared to be dangerous and he has gone back there. As a matter of fact, I think ne was up tnere yesterday - l1R. E.. ROBERTS: Down there. MRS. H. NEi-11iOOK: He is back again now, yes. Okay then. And he said that he was going to get some officials from the town to go in with him and go inside these huildings and make an inspection. i'iow I have not received his report( since he came back. MR. E. ROBERTS : H..t\~ SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. ~!R. t;. RCBEP.'l'S : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the han. member far the Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I thank the minister. I w'ond~r l.f ! could ask i'ler whether she would undertake to r..ake a staterwnt, eititer here in t.lle tiouse ur perhaps to tne council at ~t. Anthony or to me as the me~r.ber for an area wnich includes ti"le con-.munity of St. Anthony '.<lilen she gets a furtner report

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1319 NM - 1 HR. ROBERTS: from her inspector, can she undertake to make a report public', or a statement, hopefully the result of which will be to assure people that the area is safe, but if that is not ~~e case to let people know where the matter stands and what further action will be taken? Can the minister undertake to make that statment either here in the House or outside if she wishes? !1R. SPEAKER (Simms l : The hen. !1inister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, ! shall be pleased to do this and ! should have that by Monday. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Forestry. Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not ~~ey have worked out yet the agreements with Price (Nfld.) re timber limits or supplies • for the Liner board mill? I am thinking particularly of the Crown limits that will be passed over to Abitibi Price to sustain the timber requirements for the Linerboard operation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. HORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, ~~e company Abitibi Price, ) in meetings with them over the past few weeks 1 has, been given the assurances of adequate wood supplies for their mill in Stephenville. Under the existing agreement, passed through this House here last year, we have to have the wood supplies allocated by the end of this calendar year, '79. We have allocated these wood supplies to them, or assured them of wood supplies as indicated by the agreement.

However, we do have some concerns as the Department of Forestry, in connection with any possible adverse ~ffects on ~~e sawmill operations in some of these respective areas, particular:J..y along the areas of the ~lortheast Coast of the ?rovince and we are now in the process of talking with the campa~y, In :act~ this coming ,,...eek I '.Vill be meeting ,,...ith t..he company senior officials in Toronto and discussing ·,.;ith them the possiblity of obtaining, 3302

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1319 MR. MORGAN: number one, assurances that ~~e sawmillers will not be adversely affected, Or number t·..to, we could rearrange the areas of the Province where licences can be, or may be in this case, under the agreement may be requested by the company. NM - 2 So to answer the question again briefly, number one, there is adequate wood supplies for the mil.l for twenty years, Number two, we want to make sure there is no adverse effects on the existing industry, in this case the lumbering industry using wood supplies in the areas of the Province. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1. Moved by the han. the Premier. The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure this morning to stand in my place to move this motion. It is a motion dealing with the establishment of a select committee on the flag. It reads, "Be it resolved that a Select ~mmittee of this han. House be appointed to inquire into and to hear evidence on all matters relating to the adoption of a flag for the Province and to recommend a specific design therefa~.

"Be it further resolved that the Select COmmittee have power to 3it at all times whether or not the House is in session, adjourned or prorogued, and in relation to the matters to them referred, the power to send for persons, papers and records. "And be it further resolved that the Select Committee report back to this bon. Bouse with its v~ews or rec;:.,ia.tr;endations in connection t:.._.erewith en :::r before ::he 30th day of April, 1980." 3303

~.Jovell".ber 23, 1979 Tape No. 1319 NM - 3 PREl1IER ?ECKFORD: ~ow, Hr. Speaker, the reason why the government is going this route, number one, let us perhaps say that there is a fair bod7 of opinion in the Province which says that we should have our own distinctive !lag.

I think most people who share that opinion also would go~on to say ~1at that is not to in any way try to diminish the roles -::u .. ~ various patterns, designs, or existing flags have had in our long and somewhat turbulent history, and that undouht..edly the Select Committee or whatever r:Ugi1t recommend certain of those designs being part of a more distinctive flag.

But I think it is fair to say 1 number two, that it is a highly emotional issue obviously, and therefore one reason why we have taken this route, besides the fact that I feel strongly about issues like this l having a full opportunity to be aired and to give the 3304

Tape 1320 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: members of the House of Assembly, duly eleeted 1an opportunity to perform some of the functions I think they were elected to perform, and that is to travel around the Province and to gee involved in these kinds of issues. Therefore, we think, as a government, thae this is the proper route to take. I guess the group in the Province which is most strongly in favour of some distinctive flag is, perhaps, the sports fraternity, generally speaking.

In the last four or five or six months, just about everywhere I have gone as it related to a sports activity, and I think particularly when I went down to the Lions Park here- by tha St. John 1 s CurUng Club to open the Senior Softball Championships that were being held. There were 3,000 or 4,000 people in the stands, it was a beautiful evening and the lights all around, t.lu! sun had just dipped below the hills, and it was a very, vecy glorious spectacle.

The flags were paraded out, the various teams accompanying the flag bearer, and ours came along._ There were quite a ·few people who came to me during that ball game and others of those ball games that I attended, who expr~_ssed the vi.ew that they understand and appreciate the union Jack 1 that perhaps it should be always a part of our flag, but that we should have somewhat of a mora distinctive flag.

I have, of course, as most hon. members would reali..:.e, heard - and I guess some of the members have themselves - from. the various groups around the Province who have a certain commitment to a cenain design, who have put their feelings forward. l think it is much better dcne in this more non-partisan way than to do it individually and on an ad hoc bas:..s or for the government to just. submit a bill to che Bouse and to try to 1 ram it' through. I think ie is better to go this route and to fully air the issue and allow the commi t.tee then to make a report.. r will not. go on any further on it.

We all recognize, I chink, members of the House and citizens of :.he Province, ~~at it is a highly err~tional issue. !t is one that I, personally, do not: like- because it is an etnoticnal issue- to 3305

Nove~er 23, 1979 Tape 1230 E:C - 2 PREMIER PECY...FORD: back away from, I would like to try t:o hit it head on, and I think the House here has an obligation to do that. And I hope we are doing that by the establishment of this committee and putting time frames on it so that it just does not go on endlessly, so we do have a report.

And it is really at that time that I think all members of the House will then have an obligation and a resoonsibili ty and the opportunity to fully debate then the merits or lack thereof of the principle of a distinctive flag, as well as the report that the Select Committee submits to this hon. House, and that today it would be, perhaps, most opportune and appropriate for all of us in a brief period of time to just get this motion passed so that the Select Committee can be established and get on with putting a schedule::,of meetings in place and getting the :report in by the end of April. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to nominate the members of the Committee .. The hen. the member for St. John's North {Mr. J. Carter} will be the Chairman; the han. the me.mber for Menihek (Mr. walsh); the hen. the me.mber for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward); the hen. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Stewart) 1 the hen. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder); the hen. the member for Grand Bank {Mr. Thoms); the han. the member for Eagle River {Mr. Hiscock). MR. SPEAKER: (Sin:uns) MR. JAMIESON: So moved, Hr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, like the Premier, I have no intention of debating this matter today. I think it is quite appropriate to just put this Committee in place. Such discussion as there may be will undoubtedly occur before the Committee itself, and when the fruits of their labours are returned to this Clamber. Given the one anecdote used by the hon. the Premier, I have one which has caused this matter to be in my mind ever since, indeed, we said good-bye to Lester Pearson. And it is rather appropriate ~at it should come at ~~is particular time when, indeed, twelve years later, the same kind of prc=ess is ~de~Nay. 3306

~ovember 23, 1979 Tape 1230 EC - 3 MR. JAMIESON: i1y daughter was chosen, as a young person, to carry the provincial flag. And I recall the ten others - or eleven, including the two terr~tories - all having something and her quite awkward and rat:.her embarrassed situation when she had to keep explaining that there was nothing there that showed that this was from Newfoundland. It has been in the back of my mind ever since. In addition to that, of course, in my travels about the world, it has always been somewhat difficult to explain the situation. So therefore, from a personal point of view, I think it is wise.

I think the time has come for us to get this matter settled, and I am delighted to second the motion. SOME HON. MEMBErui : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER; (Simms) It is therefore moved and seconcied that Motion one be adopted. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt t."le said motion? Those iri favour, 'Aye', contrary, 'Nay', carried. It is understood that the names of the Conmittee ttembers, as presented, would be included in that motion. Aqreed? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR. MARSHALL: Order 2, Bill 1. MR. SPEAKER: Order 2, Bill 1, continuing debate.

Committee of the Whole on a bill, "An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Married Persons." On motion, that the House resolve itself into Cotl'tni.t-:ee of the Whole/ Mr. Speaker left the Chai::. 3307

:scvember 23, 1979 ~R. CHAIR~~ (Mr. Baird) Tape ~c. 1321 C0!1MITTEE OF THE \<t1iOLE Order, please~ SD - 1 Yesterday a point of order was raised in relation to Bill No. L The point was made that Clause 44 of the bill was not in order because it did not come within the ambit of the bill. With reference to this point, I quote from May's Parliamentary Practice, page 477, ''In preparing bills, care must be taken tha't t.hey de not. contain provisions which are not authorized by the notice of presentation or the order of leave.

The title of the bill must correspond with the notice of presentation and the bill itself must be prepared pursuant to the order of leave and in proper form. If it sho.Ud appear that these rules have not been observed, the bill must be withdrawn. Such objections, however, should be taken before the second reading". In this case, I do not think that Clause 44 goes beyond the scope of the bill, the bill was introduced as a bill, "An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Married Persons". clause 44 amends this

section of the Intestate Succession Act that. provides for what happens to the estate of a spouse with no children. This clause results in the reform of ~he law respecting the property of married personsf the ruling is there is no point of order. MR. E. ROBERTS: ruling has settled it. HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 44 carry? It is arguable but I believe the On motion Clause 44 carried. On motion Clause 45 carried. Shall the

short title carry? Carried. Shall the enacting clause carry? carried. ~A Bill

An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Married Persons". Shall the

long title carry? carried •. On motion, Bill No. 1 carried with an1enu:nent. On motion that ~,e Comoittce rise ara report Sill :Jo. 1. :.;assed ·..;it:.h .1menci."':'.ent ,md a:;;k leave to sit. aga:..n, :-lr. speaker returnee ~o ~,e Chair. 33U8

~ovember 23, 1979 !1R. SPEA.l(ER: (Hr. Si.mms) MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. BaJ.rd} Tape ;Io. lJ:U SD - 2 The hen. member for Humber west. ~tt. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and has directed me to report Bill No.1 with amendment and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Si.nutts) The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that it has considered the matters to it referred and dJ.rect him to report Bill uo •• l with some amendments. and second time.,. MR. SPEAKER: time? SOME HON. MEMBB.RS : t1R.

SPEAKER: On motion,report received and adopted, on motion 1 amendment read a first When shall the bill be read a third sow, by leave. Now, by leave. It is moved and seconded that the said bill be now read a third time. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion. MR. D. JAMIESON: :-IR. SPEAKER: . MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. I hope ~~at there is no fear and trembling on the opposite side that we are going to launch in~ a w001e series of lengthy interventions or 3309

November 2J, l9i9 Tape 1322 !?K - 1 :>tt'. Jamieson: comments upon this bill. ! think, however, ic is an historic bill. And, I think, the House is to be congratulated, members on all sides 1 £or the manner in which this debate has been carried on. I want particularly, as Leader of this Party, to express my appreciation to the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) and the hon. House Leader (Mr.

Marshall), who, I think, demonstrated in a most clear and concise way the importance, indeed, of clause by clause study, and the ability of this process to bring out things, which even the most skilled minds and even the most competent legal talent do not always find. And it is only on that one single point that I wish to say a brief word during this third reading debate, and I want .c to reassure the House that it will not be lenqthy and it will not be in any sense contentious.

The thing that has concerned , I believe, members on all sides of this House from private conversations and from the speeches that have been made, is , first of all, the monumental nature of the legislation. We have talked about it as being a turning point, we have talked about it as being a major reform, and• I think, all of these are unquestionably correct

definitions or correct assessments of what we have done here. The second point, of course, is that there is scarcely a person in Newfoundland, certainly when someone sai~ there is not a married couple, it was interjected that there is scarcely a person, an adult in the Province, and indeed, I suppose, one could go so far as to say, the children too are affected in a very real way by this bill. Al~ I would hope that it will be in a beneficial way.

What is of the deepest concern to me,and I say it because I know that it is something which others are worried about as well, is the fact, that perhaps because the bill is so complex, and also, perhaps, because even though there may have been some frustration here that time was taken, we are still only two weeks into this session with all of the other matters <:hat have been discussed, :herefore, it 3310

NOVe.n".ber 23, 1979 Tape 1322 PK - 2 Mr. Jamieson: is clear to me that,except far those with a very special interes~ in the bill, except for those who have had the opportunity and perhapsJindeed,an interest in following it ~hrough,tha~ i~ has not been widely publicized, it has not been totally outlined or explained. I can understand all of that. I have same regrets that, in fact, first of all, that for whatever reason the media have not really given it the kind of specific point by point coverage. Also, it is a matter of regret to me,as well, and I suspect regret shared by all members of this han.

House that, in fact, the publics interest in it is not as great as it ought to be or as great as it ought to have been I have had the experience and I would suspect and, indeed, I would defy 'any memoer on t:.nl.S or t:.ne ocner sl.de ct t:he House, particularly those who are in rural constituencies, to go into their constituencies on this weekend and to generate an intelligent discussion upon these measures. The fact is that they are not well-known to the vast majority of the people of this Province.

And in some instances at least, and certainly it is not an anti remark with regard to the bill, in some instances at least, when I have sought, and I hope I have demonstrated in the debate that I can be objective about it, when I have sought to outline many of its provisions I can only tell hen. members opposite, and incidentially, again,! believe, share with them that there has been a reaction from those people to whom I have been speaking, which has said, in effect, "When did all of this happen?• And,unfortunately,we are going to have to do a great deal more by way of putting this in good simple, solid, straighforward language.

Because if that is not done, and incidentally I will come to the comments that were made by the Minister of Justice {~x. Ottenheimer) in just a moment, but if that is not done I know and I have had, like many colleagues in this House, the experience on other matters of law of suddenly finding at a moment of crisis and, particularly, at a rncrnent,say, of terea:.remen~ or imediate fOOSt- bereavement,! have found good,hcnest, decent: people who were completely unaware and wllo suad.en.!.y al.scoverea themselves in w.n 33U

Nov~er 23, 1979 Tape 1322 ?K - 3 IA.r. Jamieson: intricate situation which was going to cause them considerable difficulty and they simply did not know what to do about it. 3312

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1323 MR. JAMIESON: ! have no intention, I emphasize this morning, of rehashing the specifics or anything of that nature. I think we have all demonstrated within this party that the principle of this bill, and indeed new the clause by clause study of the bill, has been comprehensive. There are reservations, le't:. us not delude ourselves for a moment, and they are not all shared by one particular group of citizens, whatever their sex or whatever their status. There are real reservations about this bill. Let us hope that most of them come from ignorance or from a lack of knowledge.

Let us hope that that is what it is. NM - 1 But what I want to say in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, is that it is not going to be good enough to wait until this bill becomes law, which I believe is either the 1st. or the 31st. of July, in any event in six months time or so. It is nat going to be enough to wait until it is proclaimed and is actually in operation to have, and I do not think I am using an excessive word here, a massive programme, a massive programme, of informing people of what is happening.

I know myself, and I am honest enough to admit it, that I have not a clue what this is going to do in my own personal case. I do know this, that it is going to change totally all of the planning and the skillful planning which lawyers and others have done on my behalf. ! know that.

But it is going to take some time far me to sit with the various people who do these kinds of jobs for me and say, "All right now, where do I stand?" AnC that comes, by the way1 from a man, let me assure you, without being~in the least emotional or sentimental, who if his wife 'Nan ted the whole works, I have enough appreciation of her that there will never in my judgement be any problem between me and her with regard to cost sharing or anything of that nature. 3313

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1323 NM - 2 MR. JAMIESON: After thirty odd years that is not the problem.r~ere are not going to be any great rows in the Jamieson household. But she herself, iZ I can for a moment be personal, says, "What do I do now? What is the situation?

Where do we goi'" Now, if that is so, of someone who has participated in this debate, if that is so of someone who has had the opportunity, over the years, of skilled advice in dealing with these matters, I emphasize with all of the enthusiasm that I am capable of, that there are hundreds of thousands of Newfoundlanders who are going to be caught unless we do something more than just simply say, "Here is a little brochure," or "Here is an ad in a newspaper," or "Here is a thirty second or a sixty second clip on the radio.

" This is something which is going to require, I suggest to han. members, very careful and immediate attention. Because, I believe it was my friend from the Straits of Belle Isle {Mr. Roberts) who mentioned it, it does mean that an enormous number of wills, for instance, are going to have to be changed. I cannot, as indeed I had done, leave certain properties by total agreement of the family. I have had over che years a splendid family relationship and we sit and discuss and we had our own plans which,insofar as I personally was concerned 1were satisfacto~J and were satisfactory to them.

Now, I have to go back over that ground, and forgive me for using my own example, but I think it is the best way I knew to bring heme to this House and to the public of Newfoundland that this is a ve~J major change that has taken place. It not only, as my hen. friend from LaPoile {Mr. Neary) said, and I think said wi~~ reason, it not only flies in the face of the legal traditions of this Province, it makes significant and massive changes in what I might describe as the traditional attitudes of ~~is Province. And ! have no quarrel with that:.

Hf.! ,'"last not: be dragged screaming into the twentieth century, as somebody once said in terms of the ackno'Nledgement of the balanced rights of individuals of whatever sex or ·,.;hatever status 1b_:t at the sa'!le time ·.ve cannot delude 3314

November 23, 1979 Tape No, 1323 MR. JAMIESON: ourselves, tndeed 1 I was surprised not merely in discussing this with what I might describe as my rural constituents, how little was known about it, I had occasion a few nights ago to attend a function here in St. John's of, I would say,some of the (

a) best informed, and (

b) best hee~~ people of this Province, and I was t.'M - 3 again surprised to discover that it has, for all practical purposes, gone aver the heads of a great ~~y of them. And without want tnt to be in the least pit alarmist, I honestly believe that the government has no bigger responsibility in the social field J ":mn·- by the way1 I suppose one could even argue that this is an economic measure alsorand ~-·lO bigger 3315

:.o ... -err.oer 23, 19 79 1'ape ,-;o. 1324 C\-; - l responsibility in the social field in ~~e irrmediate future 1 than to have a thorough 1 in the best way in wnich tney know how, a thorough capacity to let the public of this Province know.

And incidentally, Mr. ~peaker, the reason I say this and the reason I believe that it must :1appen now is because. by the very nature of this Act1 in many cases it tNill start to have an impact almost the instant that it comes into effect.~ I do not: quite know how the transi­ tion is going to take place ..... ~f, for instance 1 a Sf.OUSe were to die on the second, third or fourth day after this has peppened - I am not getting back into the nitty-gritty of the aill-where is the provision if they say, ''We have not done this and what is going to happen'~" Again forgive rr.e,but it is so deeply embedded in me1 this conviction about this 1 that I want to illustrate one or two points.

I know in my ·own constituency of a family with two retarded adults in t..'leir twenties and ther& is an agreement to which the wife totally subscribes, that one of the children is to get the home on the understanding, for instance, that they are going to looR after the tw~ :.retarded children and that they will ensure that they are taken care of.

I am not saying the Bill prevents that, what I am saying is that that family - I must be able to say to t:hem or someone must be able to say to them, 'Look., here is the way l.n which you ensure that your intentions with regard to :tour property are rr.et'. ! empha­ size once , again I am not interested in the least in going !Jack on the principle of that but these are the sorts of questions, and in these t'»o w-eeks , alone t:.nat I have been involved here 1 1 have encountered at least, and I will not exaggerate 1 seven or eignt cases all of which can be classified as being separate and di~tinct1 the public, in those cases 1 informed. that will need co 11ave :'iow, my final paint is I ;.·auld ask -::.he s;overmr.ent: if it is not perhaps sensible in the fir:::;t instance not only ::.o ;;ave a, '-<hat.

I w·ould describe as, :nassive publicity car.:pal.gn .. mt tnat it :nig:u:. net tea b.:1d idea 1even if it is informal, we do not, ;,;;ernafls,nave to strike a ccrr,rnitt.ee o£ t.'"lis hcuse,but ,.e, are all n;en anc 'Ncm;u of gcod '.,'ill .:mC it r.'..ight not ;.,)~ a bad idea !:or a non- 3316

:<overrL-er 23' 19 79 Tape No. 1324 :·lR. D. Ji'.J1IESCN: partisan group of rnerrhers who will share tne same froblezr.s in terms of their constituenq'i.es, to sit down and perhaps offer to ~whichever minister it is going to be who is responsible, some irieas as to how this rright best be done.

Decause I do not feel for a moment that we are now through with this measure. : tb.ink that we ~ have rnacie-~the historic point, we are quite prepared, as I have indicated from the beginning 1 to allow third reading without any additional debater but I caution the government and I caution it in what I describe as the kindest possible war, the least pareisan way I can think of, that if it does not wish to have a tremendous problem on its hands in a very short period of time after this measure is inc:oduced 1 tilat! hope that they will take my words to heart, .and that during the next days and weeks and as soon as possible that we would put together a plan through which we can ensu..~ that every last person in Newfoundland kno\oJs in simple language, I not this - you cannot put a Bill alongside the family Bible in the parlou~ and expect that the ordinary Newfoundlander is goil}g to Wlderstand it. lt. i•as got to say, 'Lock, here you have a will ane this is whac you must I I do or rr.ust not do 1 or1 you have committed the house to somebody else.

This is what you must do'. Dol' not assurr.e th§ry are all against it but tell them in the clearest language wnat is necessary if tnis measure is to have in the last ana,lysis t.he impact and the positive impact th.at. we all •.;ant for it. If. thia is not done, Mr. Speaker, if this is not done and done now, then what we have thought about as being positive and progressive and forward looking legislation may turn into, not only a nightn:1are but. one of 331'7

;lovember 23, 1979 Tape ~lo. 1325 !'.,'}! - 1 !1R. JA.t>iiESON: the most ghastly mistakes that this government or any other goverr~ent of this Province could possibly make. HR. ROBERTS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: t'1R. SPEAKER (Simms l : MR. HARSPALL: Thank you. Well said. Hear, hear! The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, ! would like to address a few words to what the hon. Leader of the Opposition said. First of all, in his initial remarks! would like to agree with him that the debate on this bill has been a very good and far-reaching debate in the House itself. and the speech that the hon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) gave a moment ago was, I think 1 one of the high points 1 really 1 of the debate itself and I think the remarks were very well made and certainly, as far as government is concerned, government will be bearing them in mind. There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that this is a monumental change with this bill. It has been styled as revolutionary but I would not really feel that it is - MR. ROBERTS: Evolutionary. MR. !'1ARSHALL: I know, I would even say evolutionary but the very long deferred process of evolution.

And it is, in our view, and sincerely in our view, a very beneficial measure that has been now enacted into law. without getting again into the principle of the bill. And prior to the enactment of this bill, matrimonial assets could be owned all by one person unless there was an agreement. All this bill, well, it says other things, but the very gist of this bill says now, instead matrimonial assets will be owned equally unless there is an agreement. I think that is something that can be borne in ~ind. 3318

;icvember 23, 1979 Tape No, 1325 NM - 2 HR. ROBERTS: Prior to this if there was bed faith, one party could (inaudible} HR. MARSHALL: That is right. Now sou know, the provisions are complex as we have seen. There is no doubt about ~~at and there is no doubt about there is a need for - of all the bills that have gone through the Legislature in recent times, you know, really affecting the rights of individuals, I would say this is one which affects them the greatest 1 that· publicity needs to be given to the bill. We have already attempted to do this.

Eighteen months before it was brought in there was information given with respect to the intention. I do not need to go through the various attempts that have been made to publicize the bill over the past few weeks, and few months, and over the past year, t~e House is aware of it. We are also aware of the fact that people - there is a surprising lack- not surprising 1 I think surprising is a wrong word, people just do not pay attention to matters such as this until the full import and effect of them are visited upon them and this will not occur until July 1st.

So we are very, very much aware of the necessity to publicize and we intend to publicize the effects of this bill in the most efficient manner possible andraf course 1 we will value any suggestions that any member of this House, as a matter of fact any person, may make to assist us in getting this message across in the most effective manner possible. I think the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jamieson) will realize, probably better than all of us, through his experience in the field of communications, how difficult it is to communicate messages of this nature to the general populus, but certainly it is the intention of government to do sa. So with these remarks, Mr. Speaker, I conclude and thank all members of the House, particularly the ~embers opposite and the Leader of the -Jppcsition, the mel!'..ber ::or Grand Bank (t-!r. Thoms), and t..'le 3319

~1ovember 23, 1979 Tape No. 1325 NH - 3 !1R. Hl\RSF.ALL: member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Hr. Roberts), particularly, for t.~eir constructive contributions to the debate in this matter. SOHE HON. l".E."'BERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Married Persons," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 1) MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : order 32, Bill no. sa, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration of Municipal Government In The Province." Hon. members will recall that the last day this was debated there was an amendment proposed. I have since ruled the amendment was in order and debatable. I would like to, before debate begins, just read the motion so we have it on the paper. It was moved by the hon. mewber for the Strait of Belle Isle {Mr. Roberts), seconded by the han. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk), an amendment ~~at all the words after "that" be deleted and subsituted with the following, "Bill 58, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration Of Municipal Government In The Province not now be read a second time but that it be read a second time this day six months hence." The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 3320

November 23, 1979 Tape 1326 EC - 1 MR. PDBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the amendment which Your Honour just read is commonly known as the six ~rW:Jnth hoist in parliamem:a.ry terms and it, as Your Honour has ruled, is a legitimate - MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! If the hon. member would give me about thirty seconds, I would like to just check a reference related to the ruling that I made the other day. MR. BOBER'I'S: MR. SPEAKER: Is something happening? I mean, it is - Yes.

Order, please~ There is a question arising as to whether or not the mover of the amendment, if he has already spoken on the main motion,may speak on the amendment again. I believe I gave a ruling the other day that he could not if he had already spoken on the main IrOtion. MR. roBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for the Strait of I am sorry, Your Honour, I was not here the other day when that motion was made. MR. SPEAKER: It was not a motion, it was a ruling. MR. ROBERTS: 1 am sorry - when that ruling was made. But was that the ruling that was given? MR.

SPEAKER: ! do not have it right at my hand. MR. ROBERTS: I cannot quarrel with the ruling, but I would say I would consider it unusual. The precedents of this House are more than clear that a person who moves an amendment has the right to speak on that amendment. AN HGt-i. MEMBER: 'ies. !1R. SPEAKER: I would like to adjourn for a couple of moments just to check t."te ruling t..'lat 1 did make. I want to ne clear in my own mind .. :·IP.. ROBERTS : Sure, okay, but, I ~an. was ~~e matter argued out here? 3321.

:4ovember 23, 1979 :1F.. :1ARSHALL: ~q. SP~\KER: {SIMMS) Council. MR. MARSHALL: Tape !1o. 1326 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. ~,e President of the If it would help, Mr.Speaker- Your Honour may like to recess for a moment to consult the rulings for your own mind - but it is my impression that if ~omebody moves an amendment., even though he has spoken in the debate, in the course of speaking, he is allowed to speak to the amendment. liR. ROBERTS: Yes, that has always been my- !iR. MARSHALL: Maybe the Speaker wishes to adjourn. MR. SPEAKER: I do not. wish to hear more debate at this point.

What I would like to do is take a couple of moments just to check what the ruling was. Is that agreed? HR. MARSHALL: I just wanted to make it clear, not make an issue. MR. ROBERTS: Had the point been argued? MR. SPEAKER: of moments. No, and I was not even aware- I will adjourn for a couple 3322

.;over.:.ber 23, 1979 Tapa ,;o. 1327 : .. A• - 1 Order, please! I wish, first of all, to apologize to hen. members but I did ~ant to check Hansard for the ruling that ! made the other day. I found aut that my ruling was correct but that my mind was not really certain of what the ruling was. The ruling is that the hon. member may not speak to the main question again having spoken to the amendment. The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle may carry on. t.ffi. E • ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

And not only i'l.ave I no right to speak to the tl"..ain question again anC so I will not but I will be quite brief on what little I nave to say at this point in-:-t:i.me ... And, of course, there is a very technical point which I think Your Honour would appreciate. My learned friend for Waterford - Kenmount (Mr. Ottenheimer} once tur.~led into a pitfall that hon. members would be well advised to avoid when it cotr~s to n-.oving amendments. The ot:her day when I moved the amendment I said ~~at I was seconded by my hon. friend from Fogo (Mr.

Tulkl and.my han. friend from Fogo was smart enough not tO say 1 I second it 1 , because if he had said, 'I second it', that would have been his speech.And as I recall it when the Minister of Justice (Hr. Ottenheioer~ was Leader of the Opposition many, many years ago, mapy Leaders of the Opposition ago ,he ~once seconded a motion made by one of his colleagues and that was held to be his contribution to the Throne Speech debate which was technically correct, it may have been a little narrow-u..inded but: be that as it r...ay. t1r. Speaker, no"'' that we have ruled t."lat (

a) the motion is in order or the ar: .. encirr.ent is in order (b} that it is c.ebatable, (

c) that I may speak for a few mo:rents 1 I ~link;: would oe allowed thirty, in fact 1 but I ~-;ill not take the t.!:1ir~y. It is necessary for r::e to say a few '-·:ords. The ar:1en6r:ent, as I l:egan initially by saying 1 is the six rr.ont.'l hoist. If i..t '.<~ere to .)e acceptc;;;: Wf t...:1e House anC. I predict tllat it :-1ill not r....e, I :..hink t;t~ ;r-inister :;.as rr.aCc it cl~ar t-hat be .:md ~ti:.> colleac-uc:::; ..;.:.~:-.. out an; -.:.iffic:.:lt: 3323

:~cvo.rr~er 23, l9i9 '!ape t.a. 1327 DVI - 2 !·!R. E. ?.OEER'rs: of then than there are of us c:he 3.rr.end:r.ent will die. In fact,it n:ay not even Le necessary to put it to a vote. But ti1e amendrrent,even if it were to be accepted, .,.:auld not defeat the Bill,it would delay its passage by the neuse. That is not the same as delaying its coming into force. The Sill provides in

section 648,from memory, that the Act is sub§ect to proclamation. I am not sure if the minister ha:! indicated at what point the Act will be proclairr.ed but if he has not I think it is a matter to which he should address himself and I hope he will make some statement of the govern.rt'ent 1 s position. Some of my colleagues are going to ppeak and they will speak with considerably more detail and considerably more knowledge 1 in fact 1 than I do on this particular poi.nt.

But I understand that there are going to be very real 1 not diffulties,but ver-1 real matters to be discussed and dealt with in implementing the changes under this Sill and that is only to be expected. 'Ihe Bill is a major adrninistrati ve change, there are soce policy changes in it as well and 'I think we on this side are very much concerned. Now, Mr. Speaker, I Uo not intend t.o go on at any greater lengnh as to whether the Bill ought to be accepted now or ought to be put off until later.

Uur reason for moving t:he an:endn-.ent was to ensure that all of us en this side had the opportunity to ciebate it and tilat we accomplished. 'l'ne government chose not to proceed with tl1e Sill on Tuesday 1 they cho::>e instead to go anead with the !iatrirr.onial Propert~· .i\ct anci t.'lat war; dealt "vOith i.:ly t:he house. !f 'he bad ,;.nown that and I will go on to say that we did nat ask, but if we had Z>.nawn :.t it:. might have been necessary not to deal with the amend­ r:\tmt.. ~'iC nad t:he ir.,pression the government wftre ;oiug ':.0 try tO clu.;: ueJ t:.el.atc as quiC:."'lY a;; could be because noboay on their :;id~ rose to speak, S~r.

S~eaker after $peaker on t.~is side rose ~nd said as I Cid I :oeli.::•m, .,..iHm I :Jesan, ::r. Spe.J.ker, 'If anyLody on t.a<;;; ot.ter :siCe .. .,~s!lcs t.o ::>peak I will let 1:.'18!:1. go ai.1~::aW. and I ·,..ill speak. lac:cr~ a 3324

.-ove<..oe.r 23, 1979 Tape :;o. 1327 0•'1 - 3 :m.. :, R:::JB£RTS: ruling yesterday, a yield in the sense of not give up my right to speak but give up my place to speak . • 'iobody en the ot..'ler side rose to speak so we got the impression, 3325

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1328 ?K - 1 ~!r. Roberts: quite naturally that the government were trying to railroad it through and put it through without any further discussion. Since - MR. J. CARTER: quite though. erroneous MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? MR. J. CARTER: q~lite erroneous !-IlL ROBERTS: My hen. friend for st. John's North (Mr. J. carter) says, ''It is quite erroneous". I would venture the opinion, M.r. Speaker, with some trepidation, but with great certainty 1 that the han. gentleman for st. John' a North is the last one in this world to know what the government have in mind. He really is. HR.

NEARY: He got the Royal Order of The Boot (InuudiblG) years MR. ROBERTS: And I knew he will understand the quiet kindly way in which I say that, and I know he will agree with the merit as well as the substance of what I say. HR. CARTER: z.m. ROBERTS: MR. CARl'ER: MR. ROBERTS: It might have been. true some years ago. I am sorry? It might have been true some years ago. -~ Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentlelt".an said it might have been true. It was true when the hon. gentleman was in the Cabinet. rt is true that the han. gentleman - new that the hon. gentleman is no longer in the Cabinet he may again be in the Cabinet.

I am sure he would be an ornament to it. ae would add lustre, dignity, distinction and generally earn his keep in a number of ways. And he might then tell us about school buses. MR. SPEAKER (SU!MS}: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: this is no~ in order I think it is probably a little ways away from the Cotrmunity Council

section of this Act, but it might be close to Regional Government, Sir, Recause the question of ~he savory ::arm on >!aunt 5cia is one that a regional government could constitute '!nder ,-Hr. Speaker, it is not dif£::cult t:o bring almost anything ·,n.thin the bounds of relevancy I assure you. 3326

~over.~er 23, 1979 Tape 1328 ?K - 2 :1r. Roberts: Hr. Speaker, the point I was making before my hon. friend for St. John's North (Hr. carter) led me astray, tried to take me up the garden path there to dally with him, amidst the savoury bushes - do they have bushes for savoury? What way does savoury grow? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. JAMIESON: MR. ROBERTS : MR. RIDEOUT: MR. ROBERTS: oh, oh! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the point is­ - come under Matrimonial Act ·"'11le' point is that Cohabitation.

The point is that we on this side wish to speak, and the major purpose,to be quite candid, for moving the six mon'th hoist amendment was to ensure that we on this side had the opJ:-Ortunity to spea~ A number of my colleagues who were about other matters of public business earlier this week, serving the public well, serving Canada well, serving the Nation well, serving this Province well, have now returned to the House to continue to serve well by speaking in this debate. MR. WARREN: I am going again this week. MR.

ROBERTS: we also want to see - yes, my hen. friend for Torngat Mountains says, '' I will be gone again this week "and, again 1 serving the Province well. And hopefully, and I think with some reason 1 confidentally 1 that the resul~justice will triumph once again and that right will be done. Mr. Speaker, there is another reason wny this House ought not to rush through this debate and I think it is a very cogent and a very important reason, it is the same reason-or ~he same reasoning, I would suggest, could have been applied to the aatrimonial ?roperty Act.

We, in this House ought never to forget, Sir, t:hat we are sent here primarily t.o be legislators. He have other functions, a me~ber of the House is a welfare officer, and he is a =omplaints officer, and he may be many things. And ~ome members of the House are ;::e:nbers CJf the Zxecutive GoverMent, r::embers ::;f the 3327

~ova~er 23, 19i9 Tape 1328 PK - 3 ~·lr. Roberts: cabinet. They are members of the Cabinet not simply because they are members of the House, it is possible to be in the cabinet without being in the House and it is certainly possible to be in the House without being in the Cabinet. We sit here as a Legislative Assembly and, in fact, every bill which we enact ~IJins with the words "Be it enacted by the Lieutenant-Governor~nd House Of AssetnblyUt Legislative Session convened•- and we deal with many kinds of legislation.

All of it takes 'the form of Acte ~tlut I think it is fair to say that some Acts are more important than other Acts. All Acts are not equal. And some of the bills that come before this House,! would think it fair to say, 1 are of no real importance when all is said and done. They are necessary. They must be enacted into Law. And they are-. I cnuld take the order Paper and point out that of the sixty bits of legislation or whatever it is that stand there today, you know, probably ,all but a half dozen are really of no long-term consequence in any major sense of the word. I do not think, for example;-- ~ll there is

an Act TO Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act on the Order Paper, and as I recall it, that is simply to add a word or two to allow them to expand their council somewhat. Important, but r~rdly urgent, hardly crucial, and yet it must be dealt with and will be. dealt with. But then we come,Mr. Speaker, to a bill such a::s th.is one and bills such as- The }latri.monial Property Act which has just been given its third reading by the House. And these 1 Sir, are major bits of legislation. They may or may not be great reforms, that is a matter of opinion. They may or may not be urgent, that is a matter of opinion.

But there could be no ar~~ent ~ith the £act that these are majcr, substantive legislative changes and as such, Sir, it behooves us in this House to exa~ine them thoroughly 1 3328

~ovember 23, 1979 Tape 1329 EC - l MR. ROBERTS: first, to improve them where we can, secondly, to make known our opinions anC thirdly, to ensure that they are debated thoroughly. It is a matter, r would. think, where most people outside the House would be quite aghast to real.ize hoW little attention is paid to legislation in this House.

I would venture to say that of the - I cio not know how rrany bills were on the Orcier Papert The Order Paper nO'W' has forty-six itetns on it, fort.y-five bills in V3Xious stages, the forty-sixth item is the Address in Reply -that of those forty-five bills, I will venture to say that there is not more than one or two members who have read every one of them. There may well be mEnnbers who have read none of them, but be that as it may.

The point I am coming to in my convoluted way, quite an important point, one which I think we all ought to remember, one which I think we all ought to take into account, is that not only ought we to debate matters in this House for the purposa of trying to improve them and expressing our opinions, we ought also, to debate matters in this House so that the people of this Province can be aware of what is being done. This bill, Sir, the one now before the House and the Matrimonial.

Property Act, both will have wide-ranging effects, in fact, it is probably fair to say there is no person living in this Province today who will not in some way be affected by the provisions of these bills. One of the reasons to debate them in the House is to let people know what is happening, and I think anyone who observes will agree that it takes a number of days for the press - I am not going to go on an anti-press kick, but I will say that out of my thirteen or fourteen years in t~e House, the press coverage given this session has been by far and away the worst.

And ! realize I have probably been in the press more t~an most members, that may be the explanation for the fact__, but the press coverage is abysmally bad. I do not think t.Jlat anybody who relies only on the press would have any idea of what chis House of ~~se~ly is doing. 3329

:<Soverr.ber 23, 1979 A."l HON. MEMBER: ~1R. RDBERTS: Tape 1329 EC - 2 There is nobody up there. I de not care whether t.,_ey are up there or not. They are in there listening.

In fact, they have probably turned off now because the 1:00 P.M. newscasts are written around Question Period and, you know, we could go on as sort of 'sweet perfume on the desert air' for all the good it does, 11nd yet the fact remains we are in this House making laws that will affect everybody in this Province. 'Ibis bill will affect 300 and some municipalities in which live, I would gather - What? - eighty per cent of the people of this Province live wit.~in the boundaries? MR. N. WINDSOR: Eighty-five. MR. HOLLETT: Eighty-six. MR.

P.OBERTS : Eighty-five, the minister says, and my friend from aurin - Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) says eighty-six, and he is doubtless, more correct even than the minister. He certainly knows more. But it is a veey high percentage. 'lbe Matrimonial Property Act again - I am not criticizing the press, they do what they believe best and that is their job, but I would think that anybody in the Province who follows only the press would have no more idea now than a Dutchman • s uncle as to what has been done by this House.

One of the reasons to make sure that debate is extensive is that eventually it does percolate through. If we are here long enough it begins to percolate through that we are doing something that affects people, and this bill, Sir, is that kind of bill. It is one that is not widely known. I know the Federation of Municipalities and rtrf good friend, my colleague - we have worked toget.~er on a nut:l.ber of matters, some of ~~em political - Aubrey Smith says, I ga~~er, that we should go ahead and put it through immediately. Well, I say to ar.

Smith with all respect- and he is a friend of mine and will be, I am sure, and I b~pe, for many years- ~~at this bill is not sirr~ly a matter between ::he government and the Federation of l1unicipa1ities, ·.n: .. th all respect to them/ this bill affects a man or a lady living in, say, :he community council 3330

~ovemher 23, 1979 Tape 1329 EC - 3 !1R.. FOBERTS : area of Raleigh just as much as it does the President of the Federation of Municipalities, but there is one difference between them 1 the President of the Federation, or his predecessor - I mean, the Federation as a group - have had the opportunity to be consulted, the gentleman living in back harbour Raleigh has not. And I do not think this House exists simply, Sir, t.o serve as the agent of 'ratification of agreements o:nne to between organizations, no matter how representative on one hand and the government on the other 1 this House exists to make laws.

This House exists to enact in the law, matters which we, as members, think ought to be enacted in the law. So we make no apology for moving the six month hoist. The Federation of MWlicipalities are entitled to their view - I think their view is wrong. 333:1

:lovember 2.3, 1979 Tape He. 1330 SD - 1 !1R. E:. ROBERTS: I t:.h.ink t.ha t it is 'lery much in the int:.erest of everybody in this Province that t..l1.is matter be thoroughly debated and that hopefully it will percolate through the people in the Province exactly what it is that is going to be done, the changes that are going to be made and then people can decide for themselves whether they like them or not. But the real danger, Sir, is about two years down the road which is probably the kind of time it will take to put ~~is bill fully into effect. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. E. ROBERTS: I am sorry{ tiR. J.

DINN: Probably five. MR. E. ROBERTS: Probably five~ The han. minister and his colleague a former minister 1 now the Minister of Labour (Mr. J. Oinn) say five, my friend from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) says, hMaybe tenn. It will take a while. Somebody is going to wake up and say, •aoly blank, when did they do that in the House~. I gather this has not even been sent to every municipality and I will bet that when it is, as I assume it will be, there are very few of the councillors in Newfoundland and Labrador who will .read the 244 pages and the - 650 is it? 650 clauses that are in that bill.

And ! venture to say that even fewer of those who read it will understand it. It is like any piece of legislation, it is intricate, complicated and a very, very difficult. piece of work to understand in its full spread, its full complexity. So, M.r. Speaker, we think that the debate should carry on for a while. I do not think that we on t.'1is side are particularly upset whether the bill is deferred for six oonchs or not.

We are not trying a parllamencary maneuver to defeat ::.he bill, we did that last year in a brilliant piece, an 3.Lsolutely brilliantpiece of parliamentary maneuvering and I can say that '"'ith all the more pleasure i:ecause, although I was present. for the 'J'Ote am! dia :.:Ote for .J..t., I had no hand in conce::.ving it or in excut~ng '.... r ::!'link it ·...-as a ;;rilliant.piece of parliar.entary ga.'l\esmansn.l~ '.!S.J..ng che ::ules and using them properly and effec"t.ively. Jut :,;c, on :::tis side, 3332

:Iovember 23 1 1979 Tape llo. 1330 so - 2 .•m.. E • ROBERTS : Sir, are concerned tilat this act has not been widely disseminated, that its effec~ are not fully understood, ~~ey are not fully comprehended by the people upon whom it will have the most d.i.rect bearing and that is why we moved the amendment, that is why we are going to carry on with this debate not for any inordinate length of time. We are prepared to see matters go through quickly. we put the flag thing through today by agreement !letween the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, it could have been debated at nauseating length.

I can assure hen. gentlemen there is nothing that could touch off a longer debate, in my opinion 1 than a debate on the flag but we will debate it when it comes back, because t;he report of the committee will come back, and I have no doubt it '"'ill be a good debate. We are anxious to see the work go through as quickly as it ought to go through and this bill, Sir, No. sa, we think requires further discussion by the House and we on our side intend to ensure that it does get that further discussion and that is why we moved the amendment. Mr. Speaker, one final word before I sit down.

There may be some hon. gentlemen opposite, not the leadership people, there may be some who feel that we should be terrifically relevant and since this is a six month hoist amendment ~~t any speech that is made has simply got to be with relation to the six months. How, I agree with the relevancy rule, it is the:e whethe: I agree with it or not but I do agree with it but I will simply point out, Sir, that that kind of objection, if it were to be raise~ is really a very self-defeating one.

It is quite in order on a six month hoist to give reasons against the bill, against the principle of the bill ~~t, Sir, is the whole purpose of it and all any hen. member has to do1 if somebody feels he is not being relevant, is simply stick in the words 1 I am against the bill and that is wny I think we should vote for this amendment six months down. I think ~~e debate will go very mucn :nore qu::.ckly if non. :nembers on eit.11.er sicie as t..'l.ey wish but certainly on this side/ s9eak witr.out any of that kind of nonsensical :1arrassrnenc. 3333

~ovember :J, 1979 Tape N"o. lJJO SD - 3 .'1R. E.. ROBERTS: As far as 1 know my colleagues do not intend to speak twice on this bill. They could if they wished, if we really wanted to hang her down and we can do it again on third reading, you know, we could hang her down for days or ~eks. know that hen. gentlemen opposite will agree that we have on ehis side more than enough talent - my han. friend from LaPoile alone 1 could probably hang her down for a month and then the others can go along and we could add to it.

We are not trying to hang her down but each of my colleagues 1 I believe, or certainly many of them wish to speak on this bill and each of them will speak who wishes to speak according to the rules. They do not intend to speak twice and I say that to the minister who may be worried or concerned that possibly we are in for ~~t kind of thing ~e are not. And unless the government provoke us to that we are not going -::o do it. I say that because some of the speeches may not be as quite as relevant to the six month as they might be to a second reading debate and I know the 3334

~Jovember 23, 1979 Tape No. 1331 NM - 1 :1R. ROBERTS: minister will not raise any objection and I hope he will be able to restrain any of his colleagues who feel that they should show a half knowledge, which is all they would be showing, of parliamentary rules by trying to raise an objection. Finally,! want to read a note passed to me I guess by my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) a former member of the Council of Happy Valley- Goose Bay, before he was elected to ~is Chamber, and,you know1 with reference to the Federation of Municipalities I think this is appropriate and relevant and interesting that a telegram has been sent today to the minister. I do not know whether he has it or not as yet, from the Council of Happy '!alleY - Goose Bay, the mayor of which I understand is a Vice­ President of the Federation of Municipalities. Who is the Mayor 'Gar'? MR. WARREN: Kelland. MR.

ROBERTS: Mayor James Kelland, vice-President of the Federation of Municipalities, and they have apparently gone on record as saying they want the bill deferred six mon~~s. Now1 that is their opinion. All that proves, I think, is the point I was making that the statement of the President Qf the Federation of Municipalities ought to be regarded seriously and regarded with respect, as we do,but it ought not to be regarded as conclusive.

The Federation of Municipalities do not make the laws in this Province, they certainly have a right to be consulted, they certainly have a right to be involved and we would welcome that and congratulate ~,e goverment for what ~~ey have done in involving them in it.

But, Sir, we en this side, just as the government on their side 1 are not going to be guided in our legislative duties solely by what any outside body L~inks, we are going to be guided by what we believe is best for the interes~ of the people of this ?rovince and '<~e are going to act accordingly and ~,en when the time comes stand up and answer for what we have done in t.'te way that everyone of che !:iity - '4ell,at present !:ifty- one, soon co be £'ift.y-two members of this House do. 3335

Nove~~er 23, 1979 Tape No. 1331 Nl-1 - 2 !1R. ROBERTS: t-!.r. Speaker, that is really all I had to say on it. I do not know if the minister 'Nishes to bring the mat.ter to a vote. We will in due course. I would suggest eo him if he does not feel any need to have a recorded vote,for our pare. we are quite willing when the debate concludes to let the matter go and then if he wants to bring- when! said to a vote, I mean the amendment. If he wants to bring that to a vote, of course, any member has the right to do that.

If on the other hand he simply wants to let us speak in the debate as we wish, I do not ~~ink anybody who has spoken wishes to speak again. There may be one or two who will need to at some point, then we will go ahead and polish off the second reading. And I do not know how long in committee_ it is an immensely massive bill. I would suggest we probably should do in this bill what. we have done before, and that is take the sections by groups. Because simply to have the Clerk call, numbers 1 to 650 is a needless exercise.

So with any luck we may have this bill through - today is Friday but,you kno~ by Monday, Tuesday, possibly Tuesday or even Thursday of next week it should be through all stages. But ! think it will be advisable to take that extra time to ensure that its principles and its practices are as widely disseminated as possible. SOHE HON. MEMBERS : HR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Sir. Hear, hear~ The han. :-tinister of Municipal .1\ffairs Thar~ you, Your Honour. ~. Speaker, ! just rise briefly to respond co what t~e han. gentleman opposite has just said in relation to the bill.

First of all, I do not feel ~~at the debate need be deferred for a six month period. As the han. gentleman himself has indicated, many of the ?revisions in this particular act will not actually take effect for quite same time. It is going to take ~s quite a period o= time to phase in many of th~ provisions here. :·lever-::!',eless, o=: course, many of them ::ake effect !..mmediatel~h 3336

xove~ber 23, 1979 Tape No. 1331 NM - 3 :.tR. WINDSOR: as soon as the bill is proclaimed. There will be eve~f opportunity for discussion and I have already indicated to the Federation 1 indeed 1 that I look forNard to exhaustive discussion with the Federation and 'Nith individual municipalities over the coming months and years on this particular piece of legislation. It is my personal intention as well, Mr. Speaker, to, at least when the House of Assembly is not in session, to travel as much as I can to meet with various groups. Indeed,I have already done that 1 as much as possible 1 over the past number of weeks.

For instance, I think it was the Saturday before last I spoke to the Humber Joint Councils in Corner Brook. There were some seventeen town councils represented at that particular meeting. We spent 1 I think 1 scmething like three and~a­ half or four hours discussing the various provisions of this bill. It was an 3337

~~ovember 23, 1979 Tape 1332 EC - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: extremely interesting discussion and I enjoyed it. very much. And the reaction I received from t.hose people was that they enjoyed it as well and, indeed, gained a great deal of information from that sort of discussion. I think that is the method by which the information will best get out to these people. I do not. think that newspaper repor-..s or even brochures sent around would really disperse to the mun.icipali ties the depth of information and the understanding of the information that they need in relation to this particular piece of legislation.

As the hon. gentleman said, also, it is quite a sizeable document, there are alm:::lst 650 provisions in it. Many of them are very, very similar to existing legislation,. As was said 1 again 1 this bill is1 to a great degree, a consolidation of previous bil.ls, putting them all together in a more easily readable form and much better language for the layman. So many of the provisions in this particular piece of legislation are not new. There are a few major changes which have been debated - and rightly so - in this hen.

House, and I think most of t.hose major provisions have been outlined to municipalities by way of the address that I made to them in the Federation meeting in Gander on October 6th. And we spent t:hat whole weekend, of course, discussing the various principles wit.'l the various representatives there.

So I look forward over the coming :oonths and particularly next Summer when t:he House of Assembly is closed and we are in a position to do some more travelling, t:o get around to as many meetings, such as I did last weekend in Corner Brook, to discuss with the municipalities the provisions in t.'te hill, to explain to them as best ! can, •,.rith officials f:::om the department, the provisions of the bill and the ramificacions of them, what effect it will actually have on each individual municipality.

I certainly welcome that sort of thing anci we .,..ill Co everft.'ting in our power ':0 get what information we possibly can out to them. Basically, Sir, I am a~ ~~e disposal of han. gentlemen. If hon. gen~lemen opposite wish to speak on the awen~,ent 3338

~cve~ber 23, 1979 Tape 1332 EC - 2 ."ffi. :1. WINDSOR: then, of course, they are entirely free to do so. If, however, as is indicated by the F~use Leader opposite (Mr. Roberts), then r would suggest that we take a vote on this amendment and dispose of it and get on with the general debate on the principles of the bill and second reac!i.ng. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (S~) A question on the amendment then? MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for I.aPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. minister, in his concluding remarks, said, 'Let us vote on the amendment, get it over with,' ram the bill through the House and forget about it. Well, that may be a noble thought on the part of the hon. gentleman, but we happen to feel on this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, that the bill should be delayed for at least six months in order to give, not the members of town councils and community councils and m\Ulicipalities th:rouqhout this Province - not to give them an opportunity to let the bill sink in, but to give an opportunity to the ordinary person in this Province that the government seems to have no regard fer at all. The ordinary people are the ones that we are trying to get at. In due course, the members of town councils will gat copies of the legislation and they will study it.

It will probably take them six months or a year beiore they even get down to brass tacks and find out what the ramifications and what the far-reaching effects of this bill really are. !t will ~ake them some considerable til!le. au~ i <c is the ordinary people that we are concerned about. Because, Mr. Speaker, as we have indicated on a number of occasions during the debate and was confirmed last night by ~'le minister when he was being intervie~ed on C.B.C. television, this bill automa<cically brings in the property tax Province-wide - a Province-wide property tax for all municipalities.

It is an outright move on the part. of the governmen<c to implernen~ t.he property tax and then try <:o blame i <c on the town councils. We are going t:.o have the property tax in Newfoundland when this !:.ill goes c.'l.rough and ::..."lere is r.o way, as far as I am concerned, 3339

~ovember 23, 1979 Tape 1332 EC - 3 M.R. NEARY: that the government is going to be able to slough off the blame for the property t.ax on toombers of t.own councils and municipalities. 3340

November 23, 1979 Tape 1333 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: The government will have the responsibility for implementation of the property tax in this Province and it will have to rest squarely an the shoulders of the members of the Cabinet, m~bers of the Government, and members who are supporting the Government. It is just as simple as that, Sir. And it is going to take some while, Mr. Speaker, some time with the reporting from this House, reporting by the media that we have heard so much about this morning, it is going to take some time before that word filters through.

And I do not believe we should be in a rush to push legislation through the House, unless the people understand it. AN HON. ME."WER: That is right. MR. NEARY: It is one thing for the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities to understand it but is ano~~er thing, Sir, for the ordinary people to understand. And that is what has .... een concerning me ever since we have had this born·a~ain government, born again Premier, that they have no regard - the arrogance, Mr.

Speaker, the arrogance of the minister last night and the arrogance of the Premier ,and the arrogance of his administration as far as the ordinary people are concerned is frightening. shod over them , who cares? It is frightening! Ride rough- We are riding the crest of a wave right now, we are in the driver's seat, our popularity will never be as good as it is at the moment; so let her go 1 Who cares whether the ordinary people understand the kind of legislation we are putting through the House? AN HON. \1EMBER ~ MR. NEARY: Who cares? {Inaudible) • ~x.

Speaker, I have been around a little longer tr~n the hen. minister - MR. JMI!ESON: ~!R. NEA.RY: ,\nd more consis~ent. That is right, sir, six general elections, starting my eighteenth ]ear, b~t I can tell the han. gentleman ~hat the pecple in ~his Province a=e pretty shrewci, pretty shrewd, and when the 3341.

~love."llber 23, 1979 Tape 1333 PK - 2 Mr. Nearv: word gets out:, it takes a little .,.;"nile some times - I have to congratulate the reporter from The Evening Telegram who went to the minister's office looking for a follow-up on the answer to the question that he gave me that I put on the Order Paper. I have to congratulate that particular news reporter. There will be other questions. The han. minister in answering the questions created more questions than he answered. AN HON. ME.'1BER: Is there anything wrong with, them. MR. NEARY: Yes, there were all kinds of things wrong with them.

But we will deal with that matter in due course. There will be a few other questions for the han. minister. But the point I am making, Mr. speaker, is that it takes so long. There was one example of where some newsman did his homework. aut we have so many examples in this House, especially in connection with this bill. Why, the whole point is missed completely - By the media. MR. NEARY: - by the media. You know, Mr. Speaker, I get so discouraged sometimes, so discouraged in this han. House a~ the apathy and the complacency on the part of our people sometimes.

The disinterest on the part of the people sometimes is awfully discouraging, Sir, to me as a senior member of this House. They sit back, let the damage be done and then they start to kick up a fuss. to avoid in supporting this amendment. And that is what I am trying I ~~uld say let us kick up t:.he fuss first, not do the damage as the gover~~ent is going to do in connection with this bill - ride roughshod over everybody - let us make sure that people understand it:. And what is wrong with that?

Why make an arbitrary decision to ram the thing through in a dictatorial nanner, force regional government on the people, not give them a chance to vote !or the m~~ers of the Eoardf AN HON. :<!E.t·IEER: t·LP.. ~,tEARY: .;z:1 HO~l. ;.n;:::BER: (Inaudible). Pardon? You are always ;laying games. 3342

~iove:nber 23, 1979 Tape 1333 PK - 3 :-!R. NEARY: Oh yes we are always playing games, Mr. Speaker. The other crowd never play any games at all. MR. JAHIESON: MR. NEARY: playing games. No, no! Never play games at all. We are always Well, I can tell the hon. gentleman that! am not playing any games, that I am quite sincere in what I am saying, especially after I saw the han. minister last night.

I never saw a minister since Confederation who was so arrogant, and so determined that he was going to push this piece of legislation through, that he was going to impose the property tax on the ordinary people of this Province, that he was going to force regional government on people whether they liked it or not. That was the impression tl'.at I got from the han. minister last night when he was being interviewed. ! could not believe it. I was completely flabbergasted 3343

,;over..ber :J, 1979 ':ape .io. 1334 :...~ - 1 at the arrogance • .Some of the ?retr.ier' s arrogance is rubLing off on his ~~nisters and ~~ey just Co not seem t.o care ·.-~het.'ler ?eople understand wi1at it is all about, whetner the:::-e will be hardships creat.ed, whethe: democraC'f will prevail) it does not make any difference,rhe ~~nister has got a bee in his bonnet, he has got something in his head and that is it, and he is goil}.g to ram it through the P~use whe~1er it is good, bad or indifferent. 1'/het.her the ordinary people understand it or not is completely i::relevant. now a::ogant can you get, Xr.

Speaker? And that is why we are asking for a six month postpone~nt,or 1 as my han. friend says 1 a six men~~ hoist. !1R. D. JAMIESON: MR. S. NEARY: Another way of increasing tapes (inaudible) Well, that is right. The hon. LeaUer of the Opposition just made a ver-.f,valid point. This crowd went around before the last election 3aying that we are net going to increase taxes .:ow, what would you call that, Mr. Speake:? Ai.'J hON. ME.HBER: ( Inaudi.b le) :.!R. S. NEARY: Income. Oh, I see new they are qualifying it. They left the imppession with ~i.e people throughout. tJu:!

Province ~1ere would be a freeze on taxes, no increase in taxes pe:iodl HR. J. OINN: (Inaudible) the people (lnauditle} HR. 5. ~lEARY: The people, Mr. Speaker, in Pleasantville. must be awfully stunned. HR. J. CARTER:The hon. gentleman b I•'CrrieQ. (inaudi.l.>le). HR. F. ROWE: That is the guy who 'Nas going to resign. 1ha't. is right, going to resign. This c:owd went a:ound the Province, Sir, and said they were not going to increase taxes • Wellt they have managed to increase every cax, every fee, every ar:.ount that you pay for a .=:ermit, they have increased the license =ees and now, :·lr.

Speaker, chey are going to force t.he :;:rofertJ:' tax on the people who live in cert.ain :<unicipalities in tilis ?rovinc:e. 1hey :1ave increased everything from tile ~dog licenses up and. no.,. they are ~uali£ii:r;g tneir :::ornmi ttr.ent and t:.1eir ;rcr.:ise to t.1e ;,carle for 3344

,;:ove:t.i:.l~r 23, 1979 nee increasing taxes sayl.ng, 'On, we did not increase t.'1.e income tax or t:jle sales tax. :tr. Sj;;eaker, I am going to support t:..'le amendn:ent not that I want to play games, I do not want to play games 1but I want the ordinary people of ~1.is Province to understand what it is ~'1.eir government is doing.

I want to make sure that t.~e provisions of this Bill and the effect that t.'1.ey will have on people who live in the municipalities where the property tax will be auto~4tical1y implemented and regional government will be forced on people in certain parts of the Province, that tiley will unciersta."l.d t.1.at it is their government, that is the Cabinet that is doing this and not the tc...:n council or the municipality. I did a survey of town councils bacl• in l976,and one of the big complair.t~ aLout ~own councils at ti1at time was the fact that bad decisions had to be ar.nounced by the council.

The councillors had to take the blame for all the bad things that were done but the rr.etr.ber and the govern- :r.ent would make the announcements about. all the good things that were going to be done. And that is still happening, by the 'Nay,!1r. Speaker, but only happening on the government benches. I have heard badti:lenchers ever ~'1ere are slippe~ little bits and pieces of information by the ~~is~er and they go 6ff and rr.ake the announcements, upstage, scoop the town council.

Well, nothing sets the devil i:. the mayor and counc.i.llans mere. l'hey work sa hard an a project, work for :t'ears sor=~~times on a project and the next thing they hear a governrr.ent i.err.ber or a minister on t.'le television and radio r..aking the announcement and he probab~y did not even know it was being done until t...1.e ninister slipfed toir. a litt.i..e bit of information or wrote hirr. a mer;.o and saiC. 'ia~re ' :au had :.::etter make an announccnent on thisr 1'Hh.et.'1er it would b~ water .:ma sewer or a !:ire ball or a town ':>all or what i:c.ve you . 3345

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1335 NH - l 1-!.R. NEARY: tlothing sets the devil in the town councillors and the mayors more, Sir, than to have members of the House trying to upstage ~~em to make ~~e good announcements, to announce the goodies and let the town councillors take the rap and the blame for all the bad decisions that have to be made. But this is one ~me, if we have anything to do with it on this side of ~~e House, Sir, this is one time when the ordinary people of this Province will know, will be aware, that it is the government that is imposing the property tax, and not the mayors and town councillors.

And the little carrott they are dangling in front of the mayors and town councillors is that now there is a provision in this bill whereby you can receive remuneration. And the government hopes, I suppose, that the mayors and councillors will encourage the government to pass this bill, rush it through, sa they can all go out now and get paid. The government is dangling that little carrott and that is only if the revenue permits. That is the carrott the government is dangling in front of the municipalities. But it will not work, Mr. Speaker, it will not work.

I intend to send aut a householder mailing, where we have incorporated communities in my own district,indicating to the people who is responsible, who is responsible for this legislation and I will do a

summary of it, and then if the people want to- of course 1 they do not because that was indicated in the last federal election, they will never want to vote for this gover~~ent, for the Tories. LaPoile crur.e through loud and clear, solid Liberal for Simmons in ~he federal election. SOME HON. :4E..'1BERS : :1R. N""~P..Y: Oh, oh: No, : can understand - you know, :1r. Speaker, ! can understand why t_;,_e han. gentleman is not concerned about by-elections, because if the people of Harbour Grace when they 3346

~lovember 23, 1979 Tape No. 1355 MR. NEARY: find out there is going to be no superport, if chere was a by-election I am afraid the hen. gentleman would not be around very long. MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Simms l: Order, please~ ~1 - 2 MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman pulled the wool over the eyes of the people in Harbour Grace. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) seems to be drifting a little away from the amendment. I would ask him to continue to speak on the amendment. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So, I do not want to take up any more time except to say that ! am terribly concerned about the attitude of this government in bringing bills into this House of ~~jor importance, bills of such a magnitude as we have seen in this session of the House, the Matrimonial Property Bill and now in this municipal bill, wanting to ram the legislation through in a few days without the people knowing what the legislation is all about~ legislation that will affect the everyday lives of every man, woman and child in this Province. And if we can only get the message through, Mr.

Speaker, I would be satisfied, if we can get the message through to the ordinary people. I do not know how we can do it. I am going to do it in my own district. But if we can only just gee the information out to the people that the goverr~ene is bringing in, no~ a measure to force the property tax on every municipality in this Province.

What they could not do last year in the House, with the Regional Government Bill1they are now trying to do with ~his municipal bill and that is to force regional government on the people without giving the people an opportunity to determine in a democratic way whether or not they want regional government. These are only two bad features about this bill. contend, Sir, that we should postpone the second reading 3347

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1355 NM - 3 Let ~~e word f~lter out, let it sink in what it is the government is doing, not allow the government, Mr. Speaker, not allow this government to adopt the philosophy and the policy of making all the unpopular decisions in their first six months or in ~~eir first year and that as we come down the home stretch towards an election, then start to throw out a few goodies hoping the people will be conned. 3348

::ovember 23, 1979 Tape :1o. 1336 SD - 1 M. S. ~lEARY: That is the game ~ey are playing, Sir, t.'ley have been playing that game now :;;;ince June. 'Let us make unpopular decisions now, get it over with and ~en when we are getting near an election we can make all kinds of good announcements and the people will fall for it: That is what they are up to,Sir, and that is cruel in my opinion, cruel indeed. So I think t..'1e amenciment is fair and reasonable and I hope, Sir, that some of the members on the government side - t.he member for say of Islands (Mr. L.

Woodrow} nas a few municipalities down there in his district, is the hen. gentleman going to go back and face the people and say, "Well, r supported this measure to force the property tax on you"? MR. WOODROW: MR. S. NEARY: AN HOR. HE.~ER: MR. S. NEARY: Can always (inaudible} Yes, the hon. gentleman can - My conscience is clear. Yes, that is right, conscience is clear. You can only, Mr. Speaker, you can only fool the people for a certain length. of time and then you are going to get caught and r am afraid this government now is getting caught, they are boxing themselves in. MR.

WOODROW: (Inaudible) or twenty years. MR. s. NEARY: I beg your pardon. MR. WOODROW: We are good for fifteen or t..·enty MR. s. NEARY: Well, that is not the way I heard years. it.. The honeymoon is over, Hr. speaker, the honeymoon is over. The ~loom is gone off the rose~ ~·1R. YOUNG: HR. S. NEARY: S0!1E HOl1. ;.J.Et<'.BERS: ·rihere ls your leader. w~ have got a leader. 0h, oh! .:-tr.

Speaker, the :J.ext time around wit:h ::.,.is :~ind of legislation, .... it.~ the behaviour of t!1e govern.'nent, with the arrosance of the government, the next time around, three years ::rom now, ::.hey will not be .lble to change their :!.eader and say, 3349

,;ovevJ;er 23, 1979 so - 2 "\1u are a new part:y and forget the past: anti let us go on and win the elect:.ionn. They will nat be able to work t:.hae again, Sir, t:.hat only •,.;orks once. The hen. member for St. John 1 s East (r.tr. W. :-tar shall), 'the Government House Leader, who boasts about tile fact that he was ~~e mastermind benind this, must surely know by now that the honeymoon is over and this will only work once, people will not fall for it again. And so the blame, the responsibili~f for the property tax, and I am not aruging for or against the property tax, :1r.

Speaker, but I think the people who live in the municipalities are the onea who should decide t:hat, not this House or this government or the Minister of Finance {Or. J. Collins) or the member for st. John's North (Mr. carter) or the member for Gander (Mrs. H. Newhook) or the member for Harbour Grace- (Mr. H. Young), we should not be deciding that, let the people decide it in a democratic fashion. _!:N HON. ME.'1BER: Have a referendum? MR. S. NEARY: 11r.

Speaker, 'Che han. gentleman may be joking but it might not be a bad idea to let ~~e people decide on a piece of legislation,on a law of this magnitude,it might not be a bad idea. AN !-!ON. t1E!-I.BE.R: :om. S. NEARY: You must like the parliamentary process? Oh 1 Sir, I like the parliamentary process but I also like Governor Brown1 s philosophy in Claifornia, I also like that. It is too late ,Mr. Speaker, when you are making laws thac so drastically affect the lives of the people then I belive there should be more referendums and there should be more input from the people.

The input t.l'lat I am getting on this bill,t1r. Speaker, t.he input that I am getting - :1R. D. JAMIESON: :-rn. .::. • :TEARY : If we went on t:.hat:. - if we ',lent on t."lat 1 if the hon. gentler:J.an T do not know what input the ~on. gentla~an is getting in his district: r Jo not know if he tethered t.o find out. 'l'remenao.J.S supper':. for (inaudible) .•iR. 5 •. H::.-· .... qy: Trer::eno.aus support: for things like rcg::..onal govcrmaenc, well - _·JR. S. :~EARY: T:::e:::enaous support for ?ror:.Brt:y Tax 3350

November 23, 1979 Tape No. 1336 AAJ AA. S. :m.A.H.Y: and tremendous support for doctors charging whac they like outside of !1.C.P. - AH HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: creasing electricity rates dO not forget (inaudible) tremendous support for in­ tremendous support for the high cost of eye-glasses, tremendous support for the high cost of living MR. SPEAKER: Order please, the hon.member for LaPoile is being irrelevant and I would ask him to direct his comments towards the amendment which is being discussed. HR. s. NEAR~: !tr. Speaker, you talk about an honorable crowd Sir, who have lost contact with reality and lost contact with the ordinary people of ~~is 3351

~-tove:r.ber 23, 1979 Tape 1337 EC - 1 Province. If ~~at is what ~~ey t..,_ink., if they t:hink that people are going to welcome regional government, welcome the passing of this bill, welcome the property tax and all the other measures in this bill with open arms, well, then, Sir, I would say they are in for a very rude awakening.

I think the only fair way to do it, Sir, and the only derocratic way to do it, the only constitutional way to do it, is to give the ordinary people -we are not concerned about the municipalities, they will find out in due course and even some of the members of town councils will be awfully disillusioned when they see this bill, when they see themselves placed in a position - I would say you will see rore resignations, Sir, from town councils when this bill is forced through this House, because they will be in the firing line. 'llley are the ones who wiLl have to impose the property ~ and do all the other things that the bill calls for.

They will be in the firing line, and if you think we have seen resignations in the past, just wait Wltil the mayors and councillors who are volunteers 1living in communities where you have high Wlemplo)'tM;nt, wake up some morning and have to tell Ulei.r people, 'Well, look, we are going to impose a property tax.' Mr. Speaker, unlike the policy of the former administration, we felt that before you started socking it to the people of this Province that the regional disparity had to be eliminated.

In other words, we felt that water and s~erage and the other amenities of life that we take for granted in some of the urban centres water and sewerage and all ::he other things had to be implemented first before you started - not make the people pay for ~'lem, make the Government of Canada and the Public Treasury pay the larger share of the cos1: before you started socking it to the people. That was our policy. And that should be still the policy.

That should be t..'1e policy of ~embers of this House; wipe out regional disparity in t..~is Province, put in t.h.e mode=n conveniences, not sock it to t.'le people before you put it in. Put in ::he :nodern conveniences. Newfoundland is behind Canada. You have communities in :Jewfoundland behind St. John's and Corner Brook who cannot a.f=:ord it. :~ow ~,e government is going t:.o Jock it to t.'lem 3352

~ove~her 23, 1979 Tape 1337 I:C - 2 !-!.R. NEARY: and make them pay for it. And as a result of th.is negative approac.l-t, you will have do:ens and do:ens and hWldreds of communities in Newfoundland that will never gee waeer and sewerage if we follow this new policy, make them pay for it first. we should put it in first, Mr. Speaker, do as the Liberals did. We were striving to eliminate regional disparity from one end of this Province to the ot:her. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am supporting the amendment: because I feel, Sir, that it is necessary_, and the media, obviously, are not going to do i t1 to qet the information out to the people about t.."le legislation so they will know all. about it, so they will know