April 30, 2003 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 14

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know how you can mistake that one.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Friday, April 18, which was Good Friday, the Flatrock Flyers defeated the

Corner Brook Royals in game three of the best of five series by a score of six

to five to win the Herder Memorial Trophy in Corner Brook.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, once again, the Flatrock Flyers showed they

were the best in senior hockey in Newfoundland and Labrador.

This was the Flatrock Flyers fourth Herder in the past ten years. April 18

was indeed a good Friday for the players, coaches and management of the Flatrock

Flyers, much to the dismay of some other members of this hon. House of Assembly

who predicted another team other than the Flatrock Flyers would win the Herder

this year.

The Members for Humber East, Bay of Islands, the Premier, and, Mr. Speaker, I

am sorry to say, even the Leader of the Opposition, picked another team to win

the Herder this year. It was obvious to me which team was the best team, and I

predicted the Flatrock Flyers would win the Herder this year, and I never ever

played hockey! Unlike the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, who are

supposed to be half-decent hockey players, predicted the second-best team to

win.

Mr. Speaker, the Flatrock Flyers have competed nine times of the past ten

years for the Herder Trophy and with the ever following of very loyal fans,

skill, experience and determination - they never give up - the Flatrock Flyers

won the most coveted hockey trophy in Newfoundland and Labrador again this year.

The Flatrock Flyers returned Saturday evening to the Community Centre in

Flatrock to a great celebration where most of the people of Flatrock, the fans

and supporters, showed up to celebration their victory with them.

Mr. Speaker, it should be mentioned that the three games were very hotly

contested with two games going into overtime, and when the Flatrock Flyers won

the Herder in Corner Brook the fans of the Corner Brook Royals were very

courteous and sportsmanlike, which needs to be mentioned

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the Flatrock Flyers and look forward to next year's

Herder playoff.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Gander.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in this hon. House today to congratulate the organizers

of the very successful 2003 Newfoundland and Labrador Provincial Drama Festival

held in Gander this past Saturday. I congratulate and thank the co-chairs,

George Joseph and Dave Lawton and provincial chairwoman, Una Joseph, and all

committee members for their contribution to this festival.

I would also like to congratulate participants from all across the Province

and award winners on their role in making this festival such a wonderful event.

Mr. Speaker, as the MHA for Gander, I would be remiss if I did not

acknowledge the achievements of the Avion Players for winning five awards in

this year's festival.

The Avion Players of Gander, who this year are celebrating their fiftieth

anniversary, won: the Newfoundland Herald Audience Appreciation Award; the

Margaret Doyle Trophy for spirit; the Reg Harte Memorial Award for best

supporting male performance - Burt Peddle; the OZ-FM Award for imagination, and

excellence in sound - Paul Blake and Mike Hiscock; and the Allan R. Hillier

Award for costume, that was won by Brenda Hiscock.

This festival is an important part of Newfoundland and Labrador's culture

and I wish the groups continued success in years to come.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Saturday evening, April 26, I had the opportunity to be in the community

of Fox Harbour where a community celebration was held to say thank you to the

many volunteers who serve that community and the people of that community.

The highlight of the evening had to be, Mr. Speaker, the presentation of the

Queen's Jubilee Medal, which I had the opportunity to do, to two fine ladies

of that community, Mary King and Elizabeth Barron. Both of these ladies have

spent the last number of decades volunteering in their community to make Fox

Harbour a better place to live for the people who reside there.

Mr. Speaker, these two individuals have helped to establish a public library

in Fox Harbour, a museum that is second to none, Mr. Speaker, and over the past

couple of years they have been involved in making sure that a campsite was

brought to the community of Fox Harbour. Both ladies have been involved in the

town council throughout the years, the recreation committee, they play a major

part in the annual folk festival in Fox Harbour each and every year, Mr.

Speaker, and are long-time volunteers in the church community.

I want to take the opportunity today here in the House of Assembly to

congratulate Ms Mary King and Ms Elizabeth Barron on being presented with the

Queen's Jubilee Medal for the years of volunteerism to their fellow Canadians,

fellow Newfoundlanders, and the people of their community.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, want to congratulate the Flatrock Flyers because it is very close to

me, seeing the guy who scored the two goals in overtime is from the wonderful

District of Port de Grave. So, it means a lot to me.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Speaker, on April 15, a couple from my district

celebrated a joyous occasion. Chesley and Muriel Earle of Shearstown celebrated

an accomplishment that does not happen every day. Mr. Speaker, as the couple

celebrated their seventieth wedding anniversary, these two fine individuals have

spent most of their adult lives living together in Shearstown and have witnessed

many changes not only in their community but in the Province.

Despite their age, the two remain very active in the community and they are

very much involved in all the events that take place and are very

community-minded individuals.

Mrs. Earle attends church on a regular basis and Mr. Earle, at the age of

ninety-three, can usually be found out in his yard doing chores each and every

day of the week.

Their dedication and love for each other has enabled them to get where they

are today and are a shining example to marriage everywhere.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate them on their successful life and

marriage together and wish them both the very best of luck in the future.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

have serious consequences for this Province as a whole, but with devasting

consequences for individuals and rural areas that rely on our fisheries.

I am referring to the announced closure of the Northern cod fishery in 2J+3KL

and the Gulf cod fishery in 3Pn+4RS, as well as the $25 million for a so-called

"action plan" to assist individuals and communities impacted by the

closures.

These were made-in-Ottawa decisions that have a significant impact on our

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. They were taken and announced

unilaterally and arbitrarily, and they demonstrated a contemptible disregard of

advice provided earlier from informed, knowledgeable stakeholders.

In view of the seriousness of the short- and long-term consequences of these

announcements for this Province, Mr. Speaker, we immediately requested meetings

with the Prime Minister and appropriate ministers in Ottawa to address our

concerns with both announcements. I appreciate the parties agreeing to delay, by

agreement, the opening of the Legislature for a couple of days for that to

occur.

This week, I - along with the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and the

Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs - met in Ottawa with Deputy Prime Minister

and Finance Minister Manley, Fisheries Minister Thibault, Intergovernmental

Affairs Minister Stephane Dion, and ACOA Minister Byrne. Yesterday, I also met

with the Prime Minister.

Mr. Speaker, the decision to close the 3Pn+4RS cod fishery in the Gulf flies

in the face of scientific advice provided to the federal Fisheries Minister by

the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council. The minister ignored the

scientifically-founded recommendation of the FRCC to keep that fishery open, but

reduce the quota to 3,500 tonnes.

We want that fishery open, Mr. Speaker, consistent with advice provided to

the minister by his own Conservation Council.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: In all of our meetings, Mr. Speaker, we called upon the

fishery. We advised federal ministers that the people of this Province would

stand for nothing less.

Mr. Speaker, it was not helpful that our federal minister was on the record

promoting moving on and that he was suggesting that he had the full support of

the Leader of the Opposition in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, beyond the viable Gulf cod fishery that is based on scientific

advice, additional short-term measures and a long-term adjustment program must

supplement the paltry and totally inadequate compensation program announced by

Minister Byrne last week.

In particular, immediate action is needed to address the serious concerns of

those individuals whose eligibility for Employment Insurance expires in just a

few days and for those whose eligibility expires at the end of June.

For many of them, their predicament is compounded by the fact that ice

conditions in the Gulf and along the Northeast coast have delayed their

participation in any fishery this year. For them, EI benefits must be extended

and that is the message we left very forcefully.

The federal government also has a responsibility to dramatically expand the

adjustment package that was announced last week.

A meaningful, long-term adjustment program should, at the very minimum,

include early retirement and licence buyout measures, as well as the strategy

for economic diversification and growth initiatives. Short-term make-work

projects provide no measure of dignity or effective income support for those

affected by the proposed closures. This requires a long-term strategy, Mr.

Mr. Speaker, the federal decision on cod stocks has resulted in considerable

turmoil and unrest in our Province. Many individuals are experiencing an

that many are questioning Newfoundland and Labrador's place in the Canadian

federation.

Mr. Speaker, vessels from Newfoundland and Labrador traditionally harvest 75

per cent to 80 per cent of the Northern Gulf cod stock, and it is the

communities of Southern Labrador and Northwestern Newfoundland which critically

depend upon this resource.

In this light, this government finds it totally inappropriate that scientific

assessment of this stock is conducted by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Quebec Region in Mount Joli, Quebec.

Given the importance of the Gulf cod fishery to Newfoundland and Labrador, it

is our strong view that scientific assessment of this stock be conducted in this

Province by the department's Newfoundland Region, not the Quebec Region.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Simply put, Mr. Speaker, the very least the federal

government must do is move the scientists it utilizes to assess this stock here

to Newfoundland and Labrador - close to the fish they are employed to count, and

closer to the people who count on the fish.

Mr. Speaker, this week's meetings in Ottawa have concluded. But our efforts

to address all these issues with the federal government will and must continue.

This government will not stand idly by and let the people of this Province bear

the brunt of failed federal fisheries management.

Over the coming weeks I assure this hon. House that this government will take

every action within its means to ensure that an appropriate northern Gulf cod

fishery occurs consistent with scientific advice provided to the federal

minister. We shall also continue to insist that those impacted by federal

mismanagement of the fishery receive the compensation and adjustment assistance

measures to which they are rightfully entitled.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the hon. the Premier for providing me with a copy of his statement

just minutes before we appeared here in the House today. However, of course, the

contents are well known to all of us. I certainly share and support all of his

comments, as does all the Opposition, who are totally behind the government,

totally behind his ministers.

There is, of course, one comment that I do not see in the script. That was a

reference to my alignment with the federal minister, Mr. Byrne, with regard to

being opposed to the closure. That does not appear in that statement. I just

want to make the record very clear, Mr. Speaker, very, very clear that we have

been opposed to a closure of this fishery from day one, when this first started

in November and this issue first came up. It was announced by the federal

minister, and there was a leak. I am sorry, not an announcement. In fact, a

leak. We had supported it all the way through and when the announcement came

last Thursday, which was disgusting and devastating news for everybody in the

Province, we were clearly on the record as a party as being totally opposed to

this closure. The statement was made by the Member for Lewisporte, the statement

was by the Member for The Straits & White Bay North, and, as well, I,

myself, did a release on Friday, which played all over the weekend. As well, we

held a detailed press conference on Monday. Let the record be very, very clear,

Mr. Speaker, that we totally oppose - totally, totally oppose! - the closure of

the fishery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: As well, Mr. Speaker, I notice in the Premier's statement

he makes reference to the so-called action plan, and it is not an action plan,

we know that, it is an inaction plan, it is an insulting plan. I have also

conveyed my feeling on that particular plan, the woefully and totally inadequate

compensation plan that has been offered. I have told that to Minister Byrne and

I have told him directly, in no mean terms.

Mr. Speaker, as well, the Premier has indicated that there was a contemptible

disregard for advice provided from informed stakeholders. We participated in an

all-party committee and we worked very, very hard and worked together, as a

group, on that committee. We put a lot of time and effort into that, and we were

very, very sincere in our efforts on a non-partisan basis. We put together a

comprehensive report, which I and all the other members of that committee are

very, very proud of, which included the federal MPs, which included federal

senators, which included members from all parties of this House, that was

totally ignored and it was a contemptible disregard. I certainly agree with the

Premier on that particular point.

I also don't like the fact that our Premier went to Ottawa and was ignored,

basically, and disregarded, himself, by the people in Ottawa, by the ministers

in Ottawa, and was actually told, according to the Premier's own statement, to

go home and try and clean up the turmoil that was in his own Province. I find

that contemptible and I support you on that, Premier, and you need to know that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, as well, there is a reference here, of course,

on page 2 of the Premier's statement, that, "...their predicament is

compounded by the fact that ice conditions in the Gulf and along the Northeast

Coast have delayed their participation in the fishery for this year. For them,

EI benefits must be extended."

Mr. Speaker, I would just like the members of this House to know that we are

clearly on the record, and we have already written the minister. The Fisheries

critic has already written Minister Stewart, well over a month ago, and asked

for an extension of those benefits.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to some of the statements that have been made here,

our party has been very, very clearly on the record. We certainly support

science and we support science in this Province. We cannot rely on the

scientific efforts that have been made by the federal government. We cannot rely

on the federal governments's mismanagement -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. WILLIAMS: We cannot rely on the federal government's negligent

mismanagement of our resource. We have to take it into our own hands and it has

to be done here.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, we have to rely on our own fishermen and fisher women,

the fishers in this Province, the people who know, the people who are out there,

the people who know the facts, who know the reality. They have been totally

ignored by the federal government and that is shameful.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to let everyone know that this is a most serious matter to me, to our

party, to our Members of Parliament in Ottawa, that a matter of such fundamental

importance to this Province, which has caused for the first time in our history

since Confederation, such a report as the all-party committee who got together

for the specific purpose of saying to Ottawa what our belief was as to the

future of this fishery. We did that, as the Leader of the Opposition has said,

with an effort to avoid partisanship, to put aside any possibility of political

maneuvering, or jockeying for position, and we put together - in consultation

with the fish harvesters, with the fishing industry, with the scientific

community and with our own party caucuses - a report that was unanimous, that

was a very excellent work, if I do say so, which offered a solution to

continuation of the fishery on a limited basis, plus twenty-one other

recommendations that would serve the rebuilding of those stocks; which is

something that we all, in this Province, have, not only a desire to do for

economic reasons, but really a moral and political obligation to try to do.

What has happened, the work of the all-party committee was ignored. Every

elected representative in this Province was ignored by the decisions of the

Minister of Fisheries. The Premier of this Province and the delegation that

travelled to Ottawa -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: (Inaudible) by delegation went to Ottawa was also treated

with disrespect.

Mr. Speaker, we, on the parliamentary level, have done a serious piece of

parliamentary work in not only convincing the federal fisheries committee of the

House of Commons, but the fisheries committee of the Senate of the rightness of

which we speak. We have failed to convince the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

of Canada, and apparently the Premier and his government have failed to convince

the Prime Minister that this is a matter of such (inaudible) importance that he

and the Cabinet should get involved in it.

So I ask the Premier here, as part of my statement, but I will ask him in

Question Period: What specific actions does this Premier plan now? He mentions

at the end of his statement that we will do all in our power to reverse

decisions. Let us hear from the Premier what those things are, and we will do

certainly all in our power to try to make this decision reversed and to see that

we have a proper fishery in this Province aptly operating in the interest of the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, this is not a ministerial statement, but running

down through the routine I probably should inform Your Honour what I believe is

an agreement for today, being Private Members' Day, that they have an

agreement to discuss another Private Member's Resolution. The member's

private resolution has to do with the closure of the fishery. For that to happen

correctly we should have gotten to the Motions, but we are not going to get

there. So I wanted to advise Your Honour of that. The proper procedure should be

for the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East to withdraw his motion today

and to present the newer one.

While I am doing that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all members of the

Opposition, the Opposition House Leader, with whom I negotiated, and the Leader

of the NDP, for delaying the opening of the House until today to give government

members a chance to get to Ottawa on this fisheries closure and to perform some

important business that we would not have been able to do without the

cooperation and the agreement of the two parties on the opposite side. I would

like to thank them for that.

Mr. Speaker, the understanding that I have, the understanding we all have, is

to ask the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East to withdraw his Private

Member's Resolution and to read into the record the one that we have agreed to

do today.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think everybody in this House is interested in a debate. We, ourselves, the

Leader of the Opposition, called for an emergency debate this morning. Myself

and the Government House Leader talked about a debate in which the government

wished to pursue today. There is really very little difference in the two

resolutions that were to be brought forward. So we agree, this is the Private

Members' Day under normal operating conditions. In the interest of ensuring

that the will of this House expresses itself today, we certainly provide leave

to the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East to withdraw his former

private member's motion, to introduce now a motion dealing with the issue at

hand.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We certainly anticipated that today's business, after the events of last

week and the last two days, would, in fact, deal with the resolution on the

closure of the fishery. We have received an advanced copy of it and have no

difficulty consenting to today's business being devoted to the private member's

motion on the fisheries closure that has been presented by - or review the copy

of - the Government House Leader.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has leave to introduce his motion now.

The hon. the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the fishery continues to be an essential part of the economy and

cultural life of Newfoundland and Labrador;

WHEREAS the federal government is responsible for the proper management of

the fishery and should accept responsibility for any mismanagement; and

WHEREAS there was a scientifically based alternative for a limited viable

fishery recommended to the federal government by its own conservation council;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly calls on the federal

government to open the Gulf fishery as recommended by the Fisheries Resource

Conservation Council and the Newfoundland and Labrador All-Party Committee on

the 2J3KL and the 3Pn4RS Cod Fisheries;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that an adequate compensation package including:

extension of employment insurance benefits, licence buyout and early retirement

options accompany any reduction in resource availability;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House of Assembly call on the federal

government to co-operate with the provincial government to put in place a

long-term strategy for economic development;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the federal science capability of the Gulf stocks

be relocated to Newfoundland and Labrador as soon as possible.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I take this opportunity today to inform the House about two announcements

made yesterday about the economic performance of our Province.

Statistics Canada reported in 2002, the GDP of this Province grew by 13.4 per

cent - double our previous best year and the fastest growth of any province in

records that go back twenty-two years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: By any measure, I think everyone would have to agree

with the Globe and Mail's description of this as, "stunning"

and "spectacular" growth - "a leap that shattered records".

Also yesterday, RBC Financial Group economists predicted that our Province

will lead the country in economic growth this year, and again next year. This

Province has experienced GDP growth of more than 5 per cent in four of the past

five years. The RBC forecast is, "for another two years of five per cent

growth, thus stretching the record to six of the past seven years."

Mr. Speaker, the RBC Group is also forecasting that our Province is one of

four that will lead the country in job growth this year, with a 2 per cent

employment increase in the Province. Furthermore, the Group confirms what we

have been saying all along - that the out-migration trend has been reversing for

the past seven years. In fact, the RBC Group says the net number of people

leaving the Province is running at less than half the pace of the 1996-1998

peak.

What all of this demonstrates, Mr. Speaker, is that this government's

economic agenda is working. All the economic indicators are moving in the right

direction. Yes, much more needs to be done, because even though significant

gains have been made, they are not shared by all regions of our Province.

Mr. Speaker, the provincial government has been aggressive in pursuing

economic development opportunities for our Province. Our plan is clear for the

people of our Province to see. We have been successful to the point where we now

generate the majority of our own provincial revenues here at home. However, we

continue to be challenged by fiscal arrangements with the federal government

that prevent us from taking full advantage of the successes of our economy.

An improved equalization program, a willingness to continue with the

federal-provincial economic development agreements, and a stronger commitment to

address the impacts of the recently announced cod fishery closures are just a

few examples of how the federal government can join with us in ensuring that the

benefits of this economy continue to grow and are shared by every Newfoundlander

and Labradorian.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am delighted to see that in three of the last five years we have led this

country in GDP, and obviously predict it in the next two years, actually, for

five out of seven, but the only thing that we have seen going up faster than the

GDP, Mr. Speaker, is the growth in our debt. That has been referenced by every

singly major financial institution.

Six years ago, federal and provincial revenues were 36 per cent of GDP. Last

year, they were only 24 per cent of GDP. Personal disposable income has

stagnated under fourteen years of Liberal rule in this Province, and that means,

despite the growth in GDP, the growth in personal income has not occurred and no

dollars have gone into the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians on

personal disposable income.

That is little consolation, Mr. Speaker, to the people in rural Newfoundland

today, and the people who are devastated by the fishery today do not understand

that GDP grow has not equated into improved money into the pockets of our

people. That tells us much about what kind of economic development is on the

agenda for this government and what they have accomplished. We have the highest

unemployment rate in this country. Major financial institutions are telling us,

day after day. The deficit of this size, combined with high debt levels, is not

sustainable, said the BMO. The Toronto bank financial group, the TD Group, said:

This government is going to cut, basically, $300 million over the next four

years starting next year -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is us.

MR. SULLIVAN: - but they have not given us a plan how they are going to

do it.

It goes on, Mr. Speaker. The CIBC -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: The Premier will not give leave, Mr. Speaker.

No leave. They do not want to hear the real truth, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, Gross Domestic Product is great for those who

benefit from it. By way of example, the Terra Nova project produced $671 million

worth of oil in the first three months of 2003 but this Province received only

$6.5 million in royalties out of that $671 million.

Mr. Speaker, when you look at the real statistics of this Province, with an

unemployment rate of 19 per cent, and for those who are working and everybody

else an increase in the cost of living of 5.7 per cent in one year, these are

the real statistics that show who is really hurting in this Province, and who do

not get the benefit of economic growth and activity. These are the measures that

are important and these are the ones that really have to change if we are going

to progress.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

This is Wednesday, Private Members' Day, and it is 2:33 p.m. The Chair will

extend Question Period to 3:03 p.m., unless we have leave for further Statements

by Ministers.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are for the Premier.

was closing the Gulf and Northern cod fisheries will have a devastating impact

on the lives of many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. To be very clear, our

party stands by the recommendations of the FRCC and the all-party committee in

that there is not enough evidence to warrant this closure and we want to see the

fishery reopened.

Last night, I spoke with a group of fishermen who are directly affected by

this closure. In fact, one fisherman told me that he has been without an income

for three weeks and is having a very difficult time making ends meet with his

two children. Many others find themselves in the same position. This is a very,

very serious issue and it deserves the full attention of our elected officials

on both sides of this House. Today, Mr. Speaker, is not the time for politics

but rather it is a time for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to stand

together for the collective good of our Province.

With this in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier to provide

some information on his visit to Ottawa over the last few days. Mr. Speaker, can

the Premier please tell the people exactly what message he brought to Ottawa on

their behalf and what his goal was when he left the Province? Also, would the

Premier provide the federal government's response to his message?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that issue has been covered in the statement that I gave. I

articulated exactly the message that I brought to Ottawa, and I gladly indicate

the results of it.

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my statement, while he will say here today that

their position is very clear, while he will try to say - they are shaking their

heads because they are ashamed, Mr. Speaker. They are shaking their heads

because they are ashamed! I can tell you this, Mr. Speaker, having just been in

Ottawa for two days, their position is not very clear in Ottawa and their

position is not very clear with Minister Byrne. I can tell you that for an

absolute, positive, guaranteed fact. That is part of the problem right here.

On Friday there was no call for a reversal of the decision from the Leader of

the Opposition. There was a statement saying: The decision is final. We don't

like it, but the decision is final, and I am going to work with Minister Byrne

to see what we can do about compensation. Now, Mr. Speaker, they are shaking

their heads in shame, most of them, because they know that is the position of

the Opposition and that is the position we encountered in the Nation's capital

on Monday and Tuesday. The federal minister, Mr. Speaker, to my disappointment,

had stated prior to the meeting starting in Ottawa, he was on the airways in

Newfoundland and Labrador -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, this is important, this is critically

important. The federal minister was on the airwaves saying: My constituents have

told me that they want to move on. Now, that is the environment into which we

were going into meetings in Ottawa.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: The federal minister say, my constituents have said they

want to move on, and the Leader of the Opposition wants to work with me, Mr.

Speaker. That is the issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier may want to play politics and roll around in the

gutter, but he will be down there by himself.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the main issue at hand here involves the

closure of the Gulf and Northern cod fisheries. The fishermen who earn their

living from this fishery don't want to see it closed.

Can the Premier inform us if the Prime Minister made any kind of commitment

to revisit his decision to close the fishery?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, to make sure that the record is clear - and I am delighted that the

Leader of the Opposition is now trying to find a parade to jump in front of, Mr.

Speaker. Absolutely delighted! Let's make sure that the record is clear. I am

glad that he got to see a few fishermen here yesterday because I met with them,

Mr. Speaker, in Port aux Basques on Saturday. I did not wait until they came to

St. John's. I was in Port aux Basques meeting with them on their turf, in

their ground, in the part of the Province where they are impacted, and I had the

advantage of knowing the positions they wanted us to take in Ottawa before I

went there, Mr. Speaker. It bears restating.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: It is kind of difficult when the media were reporting in

Newfoundland and Labrador that I guess the all-party committee's solidarity is

gone out the window because the Leader of the Opposition is no longer supporting

the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, that is what was being reported on the airwaves here in

Newfoundland and Labrador. The federal minister was saying: I have checked with

my constituents and they want to move on, Mr. Speaker.

He was on the media yesterday saying: Oh, I did not say move on; I said move

forward. He said move on and he said that I know, because the Leader of the

Opposition was bragging in his press release on Friday that I have already

spoken with Minister Byrne; and, Mr. Speaker, let me say this -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Here is the direct quote, Mr. Speaker. Here is the

support on Friday, the day after the announcement for reversing the decision. I

have already spoken with Minister Byrne and made a commitment to do whatever I

can to address these issues and we will try to improve the compensation package.

No call for a reversal, Mr. Speaker, none.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier neglected to read the quote from

the Minister of Fisheries, on Friday: I think that any chance of us trying to

keep this fishery open or having it reopened at this point in time is almost

impossible.

Directly from his own Minister of Fisheries. Who wanted to close the fishery?

Your Minister of Fisheries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier please inform us as to what

meetings took place, which included himself or any member of his delegation,

from the time that he arrived in Ottawa on Sunday until he left on Tuesday - if

it was last night or whether it was this morning, I do not know - when the

meetings took place, who was present, and what were the discussions and outcomes

of all of those meetings?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The desperate attempts to play politics with this by the Leader of the

Opposition are evident in putting out a press release and quoting the language

that he just used. We are very straightforward and direct and honest with the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is the way that we always operate, Mr.

Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Our Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture was

acknowledging that the task was going to be difficult and gigantic, that it was

almost impossible. We did not give up on the first day. We did not say, as the

Leader of the Opposition did in his release, that now that the decision is final

I will work with Minister Byrne to seek a better compensation package.

Where was the call then for a reversal of the decision, when you had an

opportunity to be supportive and to lay down a marker before we ever went to

Ottawa and say that we demand that this decision be reversed? It was not there.

We had the federal minister, our minister, to our great disappointment,

saying: I have checked with my own people and they want to move on. They do not

want to reverse the decision; they want to move on. He said: I have the Leader

of the Opposition who says I want to work with Minister Byrne not to reverse the

decision but to improve the compensation, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: Now, that is the environment, and when I asked - I will

tell him about one meeting. When I did ask his good friend, the federal minister

- his buddy, the federal minister - about whether or not he wanted the decision

reversed, because he had the full support of the government and the fisheries

union to work to have it reversed, and was he fighting for that, he said: I do

not want to make any comment one way or another as to whether I am trying to get

this decision reversed or not.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: And he was supported by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that the Premier

chose to tell us about one meeting and would not tell the people of the Province

about all the other meetings he had in Ottawa, who they were with and what were

the outcomes of those particular meetings. He selectively chooses what he wants

to tell the people of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, rumours of this closure have been circulating now for about six

months. Could the Premier please inform the people of any meetings since

November of last year, other than the all-party committee meetings, in which he

or his minister, and/or former ministers and/or provincial government officials,

met with federal ministers or federal government officials and discussed a

possible closure of this fishery and compensation for that closure over the last

six months, Premier?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The record clearly shows, and the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture,

because there have been two during that period of time, will clearly lay out and

table in the House, if they want, all the representations and all the meetings

that have been held in the last two or three years, but particularly in the last

six months.

Mr. Speaker, the rumours and speculation about a possible closure, as you

would know, became really public in the Province when two federal MPs came out

of a briefing session with the minister and released a document to the press.

From that minute on, of course, we convened the all-party committee because it

was not a matter of what the government was doing. We were all outraged, and

rightfully so, and we all worked together until Thursday past, until the

announcement was made, when the Leader of the Opposition said: The decision is

final.

The same Leader of the Opposition who was in the all-party committee meeting

with us in Ottawa when we presented the report, and he said this, Mr. Speaker,

which is strange why it did not get repeated. It was strange why it did not get

repeated in any of his press releases or anything else. He said to the federal

minister, as his closing comment: You may not be able to implement all of these.

We think you should. We think the recommendations of the all-party committee

report are comprehensive -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - but the one thing that will never be accepted by us is

a closure.

He admits now, because he has to admit that was his final statement. We were

all there. There was a room full of officials. When the closure was announced,

instead of his press release saying the closure must be reversed, it says he is

disappointed in the closure and calls for improved compensation. No calls for

reversal -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture a couple of

questions. In 1992, in the wake of the collapse of the Northern cod stock, the

Fisheries Resource Conservation Council was established out of recognition that

scientific information alone had not served us well in setting quotas and

conserving fish stocks. It was recognized at the time that the fishing industry,

in particular, those who spent their lives on the water, had valuable

information that could be used in managing our fisheries.

Mr. Speaker, in the meetings held recently in Ottawa over the past two days,

did the minister get any indication as to why Minister Thibault chose to ignore

the advice of the FRCC, and why did he use DFO scientific assessment as the only

basis for his decision to close the Northern Gulf cod fisheries?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the hon. member for his question.

I think it is very important that we have a full understanding of the reasons

behind the decision that has been made in our Province today. Absolutely no

doubt, and I think every single person out there in the fishery in Newfoundland

and Labrador wants that answer, as do we as the government.

Mr. Speaker, I do not think I have to stand here in this House today and talk

about the mixed feelings of people in the Province and in the fishing industry

today as it relates to scientific information, the collection of scientific

information, the analysis of scientific information, as it relates to the

fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I can only say to the hon. member across, in the meetings that

we had with the federal minister we certainly reinforced the need for scientific

data, for accuracy in the information, for the full involvement at all times of

the people in the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I think the other thing to remember here, which is critical in the decision

that has been handed down, when we were lobbying and when this decision was

being taken by the federal government, not one person in this Province, not the

FRCC, not the all-party committee -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS JONES: - not the union, not FANL, not anyone in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, said to the federal minister that the solution here is to close the

fishery. However, the minister took that decision based on science in his

department and not on the advice of his own conservation council.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, if I had been invited to travel to Ottawa as part of the

delegation this week I would have reminded Minister Thibault that while I sat on

the FRCC there was a recommendation of 4,000 tons for the 2000 season for 4X cod

in Southwestern Nova Scotia in Minister Thibault's district.

The minister of the day - I forget who it was at the time - reacting to

considerable lobbying from that area, set the quota at 6,000 tons for three

years. A multi-year management plan, one of the few that has ever been

announced. In spite of concern about the state of this stock, it was set at

6,000 tons again this year in Minister Thibault's district.

Mr. Speaker, did anyone in the Ottawa delegation ask the minister why he, his

predecessor, and his department, have taken such radically different approaches

to the fishery in Southwest Nova Scotia as opposed to that one off the west

coast of Newfoundland and Southern Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to say to the hon. member,

because I do not want to skip around his question, it is important questions

that we are answering here. The fundamental situation that we are faced with in

the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador today is through no large part

of the information that has been gathered and collected around science, and the

fact that the input of our people has not been heard. So I think it is important

that I address it.

I want to say to the hon. member that, first of all, we did ask for full

clarification. We did ask for full clarification on the decision that has been

made. It is important to the people - as I have said, as it is to me as the

minister and the government - to have the full information and the entire basis

on which this was made.

Mr. Speaker, I want to address the other part of his statement, the reason

that he was not in Ottawa on Monday morning. The reason that he was not invited

to Ottawa as part of this delegation on Monday morning is because less than

twenty-four hours after this fishery closed in Newfoundland and Labrador your

leader accepted the decision as the final decision.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, as surmountable as the task may be -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer, quickly.

MS JONES: - and as huge as this issue is for the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador, we, twenty-four hours later, were requesting meetings in Ottawa to

deal with this issue and to have this fishery reopened.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North, final

supplementary.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister's statement is untrue. The minister's statement is

absolutely untrue, Mr. Speaker. What is true is that this Minister of Fisheries

and Aquaculture, the day that the FRCC report came out recommending 3,500 tons

for the Gulf of St. Lawrence, said it is just as well for the minister to close

it. That is what is true, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I sat on the FRCC for a period of six years and

in that time, while the ministers were not always comfortable with the

recommendations that came forward, they never did try to dictate to us the

recommendations that did come forward.

I would like to ask the minister: Did she ask Minister Thibault why, on

December 10, this past year, he sent this letter to the Chairman of the FRCC

suggesting that the FRCC provide advice to him that was easy for him to handle?

Was it, Mr. Speaker, that he wanted a recommendation of closure on these stocks

so that he could justify a decision that he had already made?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all I want to say to the hon. member across that I am certainly not

prepared to stand in this House and answer for Mr. Thibault.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Because if I were in Mr. Thibault's place today, Mr. Speaker

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I will not answer for the letter that Mr. Thibault

wrote to the FRCC. I can put my mind around what the indications and the

intentions were in the comments in the letter, and I have on many occasions.

That is not a problem, Mr. Speaker, to read between the lines, but I am not in

this House today to answer for Mr. Thibault or for anyone else. I will answer

for myself and for the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, if I was to be in Mr. Thibault's

place today, this fishery would not be closed in Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Let me comment on the member's question regarding the FRCC

and my comments regarding the FRCC report.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude her answer quickly.

MS JONES: The member said that the minister, when the FRCC report came

out, had a different opinion. Well, I would say to the member opposite today

that when you are lobbying to keep the full fishery open you do not accept half

of it, but when it comes down to (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista North.

MR. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are also for the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

My district in Bonavista North will also be impacted by the closure of the

cod fishery, especially in 2J+3KL. Last year, the plant workers at Beothuck Fish

Processors in Valleyfield had 22,000 person hours of work processing cod. This

is equivalent to fifty-five workers working forty hours per week for ten weeks.

Their loss of income, plus the loss of income for fishers involved, will mean a

direct financial loss to the fishers and plant workers of approximately $1

million and an indirect loss of approximately $4 million to the local economy.

Mr. Speaker, based on her recent meetings in Ottawa, what assurances can the

minister give to the people in question in terms of both short-term financial

assistance and long-term security?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say to the hon. member that I certainly understand the situation

that the fisherpeople are faced with in your riding and in your district. I have

a district that is built around the fishery, and I have people today who are in

the exact same boat in my own district as I do all around the Province who are

affected by this - people whose incomes are affected, people whose jobs are on

the line - so I say the member, the sincerity of your question is welcomed

today.

I will say this to you also. What is your position? Do you share the position

of your leader? I will say this, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member across: Our

support is behind maintaining the fisheries as per the FRCC report. That is what

we went to Ottawa to do. That is where we are, and I hope that the hon. member

is supporting that as well, in ensuring that fishery is there for the people of

his district as it is for the rest of the fishers in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista

North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARDING: Mr. Speaker, my constituents are dependent on the Northern

cod from 2J+3KL. Their dependence has meant a top-up of their weekly insurable

earnings. The loss of cod will result in lower insurable earnings and lower EI

benefits in the off-season. These people who have lived in those communities all

their lives, and owned their own homes, trying to raise their families, will now

have a much lower income on which to survive. In our meetings with the federal

government, did the minister address this issue with respect to lower EI

benefits? If so, what answers does she have for those plant workers and fishers

affected?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say to the hon. member that we did talk about the extension of EI

benefits. We know that there is an immediate need in this Province today, Mr.

Speaker, to look after the welfare and the well-being of people who are affected

by this decision.

Mr. Speaker, while the objective of this government is to keep those

fisheries open, to have a fishery and to also have supplementary compensation

packages, buyouts and licence retirement for fishers in the Province, we realize

the importance of dealing with the critical current need of putting food on

people's tables today in the Province, and we asked the federal government to

make a decision and to grant us the extension of these benefits immediately, Mr.

Speaker, so that we could look after the welfare of the people who are affected.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Premier.

We were all aware of the importance of the all-party committee in developing

a consensus to back the position that this fishery should not close, and that

serious measures should be taken to rebuild the stock. What I think the people

of Newfoundland and Labrador want to know today, Mr. Speaker, is what efforts

the Premier made prior to Monday, going to Ottawa, to inform the Prime Minister

of Canada and his government, on an government-to-government basis, on a

Premier-to-Prime Minister basis, of the importance of the criticalness, the

crucialness, and the vitalness of this issue to the interests of the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador? In addition to the work of our committee, what did

his government do, what did he do, to make sure that this decision was not made

and that it did not have to be overruled after the fact?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The whole issue when we deal with anyone in Ottawa is a

government-to-government issue. In fact we had all hoped, every one of us, every

single one of us here, that the fact that historically, for the first time in

the history of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and even before that,

for the first time in the history of this place, in some almost 500 years, a

little over that, that all the political parties of all stripes at both levels

that has the responsibility and the authority to make the decision. Every one of

us believed in our heart of hearts that this time they might listen, because

they were not just being asked by a government of one stripe. They were being

asked by every elected officials, federally and provincially. They were being

asked by the senators who are appointed of different stripes. We had scientific

advice ourselves. We were not just sitting there as a bunch of uninformed

people. We had one of the most pre-eminent fish scientists in the land advise

the all-party committee, and we went there to make sure that they understood it

was bigger than a government-to-government issue. This was an unbelievably -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer, quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: - for Newfoundland and Labrador. So it does not matter

how many meetings the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture had. It does not

matter how many meetings, prior to that, the Minister of Intergovernmental

Affairs had, where these issues and many others were always raised. It does not

matter how meetings I had with the Prime Minister of Canada talking about a

whole range of issues, because the all-party committee transcended all of it -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to now conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - and gave it a greater life and a bigger meaning. The

saddest part for everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador is that that was

rejected and ignored, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal

Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is all very well to say after the fact, that we hoped it would work out

differently.

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister told this Premier that he should know that I

am not going to overrule the minister. Even the former Premier, Brian Tobin, is

reported in the Globe and Mail of not being convinced, obviously by this

government, of the need of keeping this fishery open. What work did this Premier

do to convince his federal counterparts on the whole, not just Minister

Thibault, of the importance and the crucialness of this issue to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure that the Member for Signal Hill-Quid Vidi is just as proud as I am,

and the rest of us are, that our former Premier, who stood here in this place

such a short time ago, has so quickly forgotten the people that he used to lead

decision that everyone of us thinks is dead wrong. Every single one of us thinks

the decision is dead wrong. And the man who stood in these shoes, the man who

stood in this place just a couple of years ago, turned around because he would

rather now be in favour with the Globe and Mail and the people of Central

Canada where he lives because he is so proud of this.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to now conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: That is not what you will get from us, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am disappointed that the member would suggest that there was any

lack of effort, because everybody knows you can go in as many meetings as you

like and plea that the decision be the right one and have the recommendations

made. You have to wait until the decision is taken before you find out whether

or not they are listening. Whether you have had (inaudible) and we are going to

try our best to get this overturned.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: It being Wednesday, we will now go to the Member for St.

George's-Stephenville East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a privilege today to rise and discuss this extremely significant and

important issue to the people of the Province, to the fishermen of the Province,

to the communities of the Province, that are affected by, really, a decision

that is not sound. It is also a decision that has been made, without the proper

backup, by a federal government that has really forgotten what is happening in

this Province. That is the problem. That is the crux of the problem. Everything

has been done by everybody in this Province in the last few months to ensure

that the federal government would get the message, and it was done, not just on

the basis of political rhetoric. This decision and this report that this House

of Assembly put together as an all-party committee - I cannot remember, in all

my years in this House of Assembly, when all of the House came together - and

with all of these resources, put together a report that dealt with such a

significant issue, that went to Ottawa, and everybody knew what the message was.

It was not just rhetoric. It was also about science.

Then you read the Globe and Mail and read about Jeffrey Simpson, a

national columnist, who did not even read the FRCC report and writes a column

about this decision by Minister Thibault being the right one. So, this is not

about Newfoundland and Labrador and rhetoric from this House of Assembly, or the

FFAW, that wants to keep something open that is not sustainable. This is about

science-based decision making about our future in rural Newfoundland and

Labrador. That is what this is about. This is what the message is supposed to be

in the House of Commons in Ottawa. That is what it is supposed to be about up

there. It is supposed to be about that with the bureaucrats in Ottawa. When they

make responsible decisions they are supposed to understand the effects that it

will have, Mr. Speaker, the effects that it will have.

There are a couple of things I want to get on the record, Mr. Speaker. A lot

of people want to speak and I am not going to take the whole time on this. I

just want to get it introduced. A lot of people want to speak about this because

it affects a lot of members of the House and their districts, but it affects the

constituents. It affects our rural communities who are trying to survive, Mr.

Speaker, and survive with the way that the federal government is managing the

fishery.

The FRCC, the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council, was set up by the

federal government. Everybody should understand that. The public should

understand it and the people across the country should understand it. This is a

national body that was set up to report to the federal minister. I just want to

read a couple of things about what it is supposed to do.

conservation and management of our fisheries resource. This approach demands a

is also committed to a more effective role in decision making for those with

practical experience and knowledge in the fishery. That includes our

fisherpeople of the Province, that is what it is supposed to include. The FRCC

was established as a partnership between the government, scientific community,

and direct stakeholders in the fishery.

If you read through the full mandate of it, four separate references about

scientific evidence-based, all about science, dealing with science and also how

to collect the science properly. To have our fisherpeople involved in the

collection of the science. To have our people involved with the fishermen's

union and so on, involved in the decision-making process and the communities,

Mr. Speaker.

So, here is a situation we have. We have a situation where the federal

government is responsible and has the jurisdiction for managing this resource

and we, in this Province, have to live with the decision making. We have had to

live with some very difficult decisions in the last decade, if you look at the

history. This place and the people of this Province have had to deal with

probably some of the toughest economic decisions as anywhere else in Canada,

when it comes to what happened ten years ago in the fishery and how it was

managed and the impact on the rural populations of our rural ridings.

Over in my district, in St. George's-Stephenville East, down to the end of

the Codroy Valley where people - and we have lost so many people. Now we are

trying to rebuild and we are trying to hold on. We are trying to develop our

communities and yet, what we have here is a situation where a minister goes and

makes a decision without even bringing it to the federal Cabinet and then makes

a decision about all of rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: Shame!

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is a shame. It should not be allowed. We are on high

ground. We are on firm ground. We are not on political rhetoric ground. We are

on scientific grounds when we say what we want to see happen is that the fishery

should be reopened.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: It should be reopened, Mr. Speaker. When the FRCC

reports, as they have said, we are backing them up. These are the reports that

the federal government themselves have commissioned. These are the same reports

that Minister Thibault has commissioned.

I want to thank - Mr. Speaker, I was watching the House of Commons last night

and most of our MPs came onside last night and spoke about wanting to see this

issue redressed and dealt with, except for the federal minister from our

Province. I hope that he has a change of heart in the next few hours, the next

few days, because there needs to be a change of heart. This decision can be

overturned. It should be overturned. It is time, Mr. Speaker, for the federal

government to listen to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. On a number of

occasions, in the last few months, it seems as if they have been trying to put

us a little further out in the Atlantic Ocean. We are all trying to be

diplomatic. The people in this Province do not want all kinds of radical

initiatives and radical things to do and talking about radical things when we

should be trying to work and create an economy, Mr. Speaker. That is what we are

trying to do in this Province. It is demeaning to see the way that this decision

was brought down, the way it was made with a lack of consultation with the

direct stakeholders in Newfoundland and Labrador, and that is what this issue is

all about.

I just want to say the resolution that is put forward - this is one

resolution I hope, Mr. Speaker, and I think we all still think - I believe, and

we all believe, that this can be overturned. This decision can be overturned.

Our Premier, our Minister of Fisheries, and our Minister of Intergovernmental

Affairs did a great job in the last few days. I have to tell you, I was very

delighted to see the great job they did of getting into Ottawa quickly -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: - because I do not think anybody, Mr. Speaker, thought

that the federal minister was going to do this. Commonsense, and the FRCC

recommendations, tell you that he should not have done it. Yet, he is still

trying to do it. He, and our federal minister, better smarten up and figure it

out soon because everybody else - like they said in the House of Commons last

night, almost every MP and every political party across Canada got up and said:

you should do the right thing. Which is to reopen the fishery, Mr. Speaker,

based on science. We ask, and we are appealing again from this House of Assembly

to Ottawa, that that occur.

I want to take a few minutes now, Mr. Speaker, to let the members speak, who

want to speak, because this is an important issue for everybody.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I came to this hon. House today resolved not to be political and

not to get into petty politics and I intend to stick with that resolve.

Last Thursday - although I guess generally we were not totally surprised

because by the time the ministers arrived in our Province there was an

indication as to what the announcement was going to be, but I guess we had to

deal with what our reaction was at that particular point in time. Although we

were offended, although we were disgusted, although we were annoyed, although we

were insulted, I think most of us were hurt and we are hurt that it happened

once again. I think the reason we felt hurt is because of the dismissive

attitude, the manner in which they rolled into town and they rolled out again.

They came into our Province and gave us, basically, half an hour to tell us

that a significant part of our lifestyle, a significant part of our industry, a

significant part of our communities, a significant part of our Province was

going to be devastated and destroyed once again. It was that dismissive,

arrogant tone that was reflected, particularly by Minister Thibault, a federal

minister who said he would go off and he would return - he would leave and go

off to Quebec in half an hour. That was the amount of time that he allotted to

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. What did he do? He disregarded the all-party

committee - and I will not go into detail because of time, and there is a

limited amount of time available to all of us. He dismissed the detailed

recommendations of the all-party committee. He previously dismissed the

recommendations of the Standing Committee of the House of Commons that

recommended in favour of custodial management and recommended against foreign

overfishing. He ignored the recommendations of the FRCC. Why? What does that

tell us? What kind of an attitude is going on in Ottawa? Why are we involved in

these consultations? They couldn't care less. What he should have done is he

should have walked in the shoes of the people who were affected by this

particular decision. He should have looked into their eyes, like we all did, he

should feel their pain. Because they don't care, they simply don't care,

about Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. It is easy to say it is not a big deal,

it is only a very small part of the fishery, a tiny part of a great billion

dollar fishery that is so very, very successful. Well, you need to look at the

individuals who are involved.

We talked last night to fishermen who were protesting in Gerry Byrne's

office. We talked about the impact on them particularly. The gentleman I

mentioned before who has two small children, has a family and no income for

three weeks, he is the person who is affected.

There was an interview in the paper today that talked about people who now

are going to reduced to welfare, going to be reduced below the poverty level as

a result of it. That is what we have to take it down to. We have to take it down

to individuals and we have to take it down to communities. What about the

communities that are affected by this, communities like Rose Blanche, Port au

Choix, Green Island Cove, Green Island Brook, Eddies Cove East, L'Anse-au-Loup,

Red Bay, L'Anse-au-Clair, Lourdes, Black Duck Brook and Cape St. George, just

some of the communities that will be devastated?

One of the gentlemen last night told me that there are 120 people in a

community. A half million dollars will be taken out of the economy of that

community, a huge blow, a devastating blow to that community. That is what the

ministers need to do, they need to walk in their shoes, they need to feel their

pain and they need to look into their eyes to know the impact that is having on

them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, we are a proud, hard-working people in

Newfoundland and Labrador. The federal government is attempting to destroy our

culture, our pride and our way of life, but we are resilient, we will bounce

back. Since 1992, our rural communities have been hit very hard. We hear today

about the wonderful GDP, how our Province is growing, how we are the toast of

the country. The Globe and Mail is talking about the great GDP we have.

What does that mean to the fishermen in the gallery? It means absolutely

nothing, because their lives are being devastated by this particular closure and

how the government can get up and talk about a GDP. We have to talk about what

is important to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

That is why our party is opposed to this closure of the fishery. Let me make

it very clear, we have been totally opposed to it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: I am not going to allow the Premier to put words in my

mouth. I mean, we could get into a hot contest about what he said and what I

said. That is not what we are here for today. We are here to work together, to

work collectively, as we did in the all-party committee. We don't want another

50,000 people leaving our Province as happened before. How many more kicks in

the teeth can we take, Mr. Speaker? We have a federal minister who makes jokes

about it, who talks about seal exclusion zones: We are going to tell the seals

not to go into these particular exclusion zones. How callous, how cruel, how

indifferent, how arrogant, can they get! They are treating us with complete

disrespect and complete indignity, and it is typical of the attitude that we are

now facing in Ottawa.

Here we are out in the middle of the North Atlantic, one of the most adverse

climatic conditions in the world, and they don't even care about our weather

forecasting, they don't care about our safety. What will they want next, Mr.

Speaker? Will they want our water? Will they want our oxygen? Will they drain

the blood out of our veins? Because that is what they are going to be looking

for next.

We have a minister who comes in here after eleven years, eleven years since

there has been a close down, and he doesn't know if there is a link between

caplin and cod, he doesn't know if there is a link between seals and cod, and

he is now going to throw $6 million at it to see if he can find out after eleven

years. What have they learned? What is their plan? Where have they been? They

have learned nothing. They have done absolutely nothing over the last eleven

years.

Mr. Speaker, we need to lay out where we are going. There is a need for a

plan. I am delighted in the resolution today that there is acknowledgment of

what our party has been talking about: the need for long-term planning, the need

for strategic economic planning, so that we can economically diversify. It

cannot be a simple band-aid solution. It has to a long-term plan that is based

on cash flow analysis that lays it out for the federal government so that they

know and they think we know what we are doing. It is so, so important for the

future of our rural communities and it has to be done properly. That is why I am

delighted in this resolution, and that is why we support particularly that

component of the resolution.

Our party, and we have said it before, will have a plan. We will have a

detailed plan. We will lay it out before the federal government. They will know

what we want to do and, if we receive funding, what we will do with it.

Mr. Speaker, they do not understand the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

They do not understand that we are survivors. We always have been and we always

will be. The feds can try and kick us and they can try and weaken us and they

can try and demoralize us, but we are not quitters. We will not roll over. We

will never give up, and we will fight them to the finish.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: The federal government, Mr. Speaker, should start listening

to the people who know - the fishermen and the fisherwomen in this Province who

know what is going on out there. The science has failed us. They did not listen

to our fishermen eleven or twelve years ago when they told them what was going

on. They were not listened to, and we saw what happened. Now we have a situation

where they have again been ignored for a dozen years and we are back in the same

boat again. They know the reality of it. They have been ignored - but no, no,

they are just fishermen. Who cares about fishermen? They are just

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Who cares about them? They are just

second-class citizens.

Well, let me tell you something, Mr. Speaker; they are not. They know the

answers and they are going to provide the solutions. We are going to be masters

of our destiny ultimately, because we are going to listen to them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, there is also a responsibility and an onus and

a legal responsibility on the federal government. Unfortunately, they manage our

fishery. They exclusively manage our fishery. They have mismanaged our fishery.

They have destroyed one of the greatest resources in the world. In my opinion,

with my background, I say they are negligent and they should be held

responsible.

There is an onus on the federal government to prove to Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians that if they are going to close the fishery that they are justified

in doing so and that the science supports them. There is no way and there is no

justification for closing the fishery, which they are doing now. We say it

should be reopened immediately, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Finally, Mr. Speaker, they owe it to us. As Newfoundlanders

and Labradorians, we deserve better. We are good, decent, hard-working human

beings who do not deserve to be offended, insulted and degraded. It is about

time that we got fair treatment from our country and we got some respect.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this particular

debate - a very important debate. I am glad to have the consent of the

opposition parties to have it occurring today.

With respect to talking about whether or not we have political discussions,

Mr. Speaker, everybody understands this is a political chamber. That is how we

get here in the first place. This is how you arrive as being a Member of the

House of Assembly, through a process called politics.

Mr. Speaker, I am saddened that the kind of language that was used today, and

the very strong definitive language that was used just now by the Leader of the

Opposition, was not what was used on Friday, the day that he could have made a

real impact, a real statement.

Mr. Speaker, today, let me say, I listened to the words. He said: We are

offended, disgusted, insulted by this decision.

The press release that went out on Friday used none of those words. It says,

"Williams disappointed..." Now, we are disappointed in lots of things.

I do not see anything with respect to being offended or disgusted or insulted -

and he should walk out because he did not take a stand to support anybody when

the people were looking, and you should be ashamed. I know you are ashamed. I

absolutely know you are ashamed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, all of the

reporting in Newfoundland and Labrador on Friday, the day after, was the

government saying this decision must be reversed, which was what the Leader of

the Opposition said today: We want this decision reversed. A week later he says

it. For the first time he says it one week later, and everybody opposite knows

it. Every single one of them knows it, and they must have had a lot of time

working with him over the weekend to try to put a backbone back into him so he

would make the right statement, Mr. Speaker.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I want to say up front that any time that my

point of order takes from the Premier, he can have those couple of minutes.

I will say this to him, and to anybody else who is going to participate in

this debate, if the Premier wants to pursue putting on the record things that

are untrue, that are not based in fact, and trying to cast aspersions on a

member of this side of the House, then every time he does so I will be standing

on a point of order to correct him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: It is a sign of a desperate politician, Mr. Speaker. It is

a sign of a desperate politician who will take any little crumb like that to try

to turn it into a 350 page book when it is based on nothing but innuendo in

fact. Mr. Speaker, what he said was untrue, it was malicious, and he should

stand and apologize for it because he does know the difference.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I just wanted to say I do not know

what special attributes that the hon. the Opposition House Leader is endowed

with, that he can put an

interpretation on truth more than anyone else in the

House.

I will say to him that as often as he gets up to give his version of truth on

a point order, I will also get up and remind the hon. Opposition House Leader

what we are talking about here. When we get into debating what somebody said and

what somebody did not say, we are talking about not truth but just a difference

of opinion between hon. members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. Obviously there is a difference of opinion

between hon. members and that certainly does not constitute a point of order.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, let me continue and understand the sensitivities of the members

opposite because they were embarrassed by the statement of the Leader of the

Opposition who spoke on behalf of all of them on Friday.

I know the responses that came from their constituencies. I know the

responses that came from The Straits & White Bay North. I know the responses

that came from St. Barbe. I know the responses that came from other districts in

the Province where they spent the whole weekend saying: You had better get our

leader to say something else because this is an embarrassment.

We know that and they know that. I do not see anybody jumping up and saying

that is not true, Mr. Speaker, because they do know that happened.

Mr. Speaker, it is not me. The media that covered it must have come to the

same conclusion because the wrap-up on the NTV Evening News was this - the final

commentary by the news castor was - listen now, there is nothing in this about

calling for a reversal. It says, calls for improved compensation package.

A different language than today. Everybody heard the language today. Today it

was: discussed, offended, we want it open. On Friday, it was: we are

disappointed and we would like to have a better compensation package.

The newscaster said, Mr. Williams says he wants to work with Ottawa not to

reverse the decision, Mr. Speaker; the conclusion was, he wants to work with

Ottawa towards licence buyouts and early retirement - on the day when he could

have had an impact. Make no wonder, Mr. Speaker, and that he had talked to - the

other part was in his press release: I have spoken with Minister Byrne and we

will work on an improved compensation package. Not one call to say we will work

on getting the decision reversed, not a mention of it, Mr. Speaker, and that is

why they were ashamed all weekend. That is why they seem to have found some

resolve since last Thursday, because they sure did not have it on Friday.

One other comment, Mr. Speaker, because it is a political chamber - and I

will never apologize for being in politics. I think it is a very noble

profession. I am delighted to be a part of it, as all of us should be. We are

proud politicians or we should not be here.

Mr. Speaker, the other part was this. In reporting on the NTV Evening News in

the same commentary, the Leader of the Opposition saying this is not the time to

be the fighting Newfoundlander. We should work with Mr. Byrne to improve the

compensation package.

They knew that too, Mr. Speaker. That was played on the Northern Peninsula.

That was played on the Southwest Coast. That was played all over Central

Newfoundland. That was played here in St. John's. Well, let me ask this

question, Mr. Speaker: When is the time to be the fighting Newfoundlander? After

we are all gone and living in Alberta? Are we going to fight then, Mr. Speaker?

That is what they know. That is what everybody in this Province knows, Mr.

Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: That is why unfortunately when we went in to Ottawa on

Monday it was reported on the news right here in Newfoundland and Labrador we

were greeted with it, unfortunately, in Ottawa - two things. The federal

minister, whom the Leader of the Opposition did not mention today - he mentioned

Minister Thibault; he did not mention anything about Minister Byrne. Was he

proud of what Minister Byrne did on Thursday? We were not. Was he proud? We were

not. Why does he defend him? He spoke with him and said: We will come up and

work - now, Mr. Speaker, this is very important - not to reverse the decision,

we will work to improve the compensation package.

That is the only commentary that was made on Friday. The federal minister

said: My constituents - I have checked with them over the weekend - they want to

move on. He must have checked with the constituents for the Member for St.

Barbe, who want to move on. He must have checked with the constituents for The

Straits & White Bay North, who want to move on, Mr. Speaker. That is what

they want. I guess they have heard the same thing.

In the debate today now they are not going to agree with those constituents

who told our federal minister that they want to move on. They are finally going

to get back to where it would have been a whole lot more productive if we had

that kind of support when we were in Ottawa in the last two days, instead of

them being able to look at us and say the federal minister - because, by the

way, the federal minister, would you like to know.... I will ask you, the hon.

member, Mr. Speaker, I will ask him: Would you like to know whether or not our

federal minister in Ottawa is fighting to have this decision reversed or not?

Would you like to know the answer to that? The answer is maybe not. I think the

people of the Province would like to know.

Mr. Speaker, we think he should stand up and say what his real position is.

It is great to have the support today, a week late. I hope it is still helpful.

I hope everybody is going to support this today, a week late, but it is nice to

have it later rather than not at all, because we are going to continue to try

and get this decision reversed and do what is right and proper for the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable today, on such an issue that is of such

critical importance to people in Southern Labrador, on the Northern Peninsula,

on the Southwest Coast, the Port au Port Peninsula, and indeed on the Northeast

Coast, that we come into this House and try and debate an issue, an issue that I

commend the Member for St. George's-Stephenville East for bringing to the

table, his Private Members' Motion, very similar to the one that we had

brought, a member who took the high ground in his debate, in a motion that we

certainly will support here today, have supported since last November, and I

suggest that we have supported for a long, long time before any indication came

out of Minister Thibault or Ottawa that a fishery may close down.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: I, for one, Madam Speaker, sat on the FRCC and certainly

debated long and hard for a period of time to try and get the fisheries on the

West Coast of Newfoundland, the South Coast of Newfoundland, Southern Labrador

and the Northeast Coast reopened, at a time when I did not hear the Premier of

the day, the Premier of the days past, speak out very loudly looking for a

reopened fishery in this area to help the people in La Poile, Rose Blanche, L'Anse-au-Loup,

and lots of other places around this coast, Madam Speaker. Those are the facts

of the matter.

I wonder if it is the Premier who should leave the House, as he said to our

leader a few minutes ago. I would like to say to the Premier, Madam Speaker, I

am here today and I am wondering if this is the same Premier who sat in a

meeting with Minister Thibault back on March 17, I believe it was that we met

with him, as members of an all-party committee and said to the minister: If you

have to close the fishery, do not just close the fishery. That was one of the

messages in that meeting, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TAYLOR: That was one of the messages. I was there and I heard it.

There are a lot of other things. If the Premier or the minister or anybody

else from that side wants to stoop down to who said what and when, I was there

for the vast majority of it. I have been in this industry a lot longer than all

the rest of them on that side of House added up together. They do not have to

tell me anything about the fishery here today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Like I said to a former Fisheries Minister across there, I

have forgotten more about the fishery than the crowd on that side will ever

know.

Madam Speaker, back to the issue at hand. It is unfortunate that we have to

deal with this, but if the Premier keeps on perpetuating inaccuracies then they

have to be corrected, they have to be addressed, they have to be answered, and I

will do it every time he does it, just like I am sure everybody else on this

side of the House will.

This is a very serious issue. Thirty-five hundred tonnes of cod to the people

on the West Coast of Newfoundland and Southern Labrador means a difference

between being able to stay in their communities and provide their families, and

having to leave. That is what it means for these people.

While there are comments coming out of various sectors, former premiers of

this Province, and a variety of different places, about this billion dollar

fishery that we have here and $45 million coming out of it is not going to have

a serious impact, this is not 1992, like Minister Byrne said. No, it is not

1992, but for a lot of individuals who are depending on this cod, this is just

as bad as 1992. It is just as bad, and from an economic perspective, with the

paltry compensation package that they have announced so far, it is even worse

than 1992. Because at least at that time the minister of the day did put a

half-decent compensation package in, and in 1994 the minister of the day - as

much as I hate to give Brian Tobin a bit of credit - did put a half-decent

compensation package in place, and they did put a decent early retirement

program and a decent licence retirement program in place, but we see none of

this today. We see none of this.

Madam Speaker, I have had calls. I had calls just before I came in this

House. I have been talking to people constantly on this issue, but most

particularly in the past number of days since the announcement came down on

Thursday; people who are distressed, people who are dismayed, wondering where

they are going to go.

I know there are people - I do not know if they are here in the House today -

certainly I know of individuals whose father and son operations took $40,000 out

this cod fishery on the West Coast of Newfoundland last year. That and a bit of

lobster was their income for the year, and their EI that they derived as a

result of that. Those people, without a cod fishery, will not be able to make it

in their communities, and no amount of compensation will keep them in their

communities. No amount of compensation. Yes, it might keep them there in the

short term. Yes, it might allow them a time to decide what they are going to do

with what is left of their lives. It will allow them to figure out where they

are going to go, but these people will not be able to stay without a fishery.

That is the fact of the matter. People might try to gloss it over, but that is

the fact of the matter.

As I said, I had a call just before I came in here today from L'Anse-au-Loup,

in the minister's district, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, with a

fish plant and a group of fishermen, 280 people, I think, who are impacted, some

of them occupying MP Lawrence O'Brien's office today, as we speak, and have

done it over the last number of days. Those people, that coast, entirely - it is

just as well to say entirely - dependent, the small boat fishery in particular,

on the cod fishery in the Northern Gulf of St. Lawrence. Those people cannot

make it without this cod fishery and there is no way that the proud,

hard-working individuals they are, are going to go on make-work projects. They

are not going to do it. Even if they were going to go it, they still cannot make

it. That is the situation that we are confronted with here today.

I look at my own district from Noddy Bay to Flower's Cove, the small boat

fishery in particular, again, that will be severely affected. Those people just

cannot make it without a cod fishery. We all recognize that. That is why we

participated in the all-party process. That is why we agreed to make some of the

very controversial recommendations that we made. That is why we support the hook

and line fishery. I have to be honest about it. I would be prepared to support a

fishery with a one-claw jigger with the bar sawed off it by now, just to make

sure that the fishery stayed open, so that people had some chance of getting out

on the water, and some chance and some hope that this thing could turn around

and they would have a livelihood in the communities that they now live in and

the communities that they have invested in and built houses in over the past

number of years. Madam Speaker, without this fishery - I do not think anybody

here has any illusions of what it means for these communities on the Southwest

Coast, the Northern Peninsula, and Southern Labrador in particular.

Madam Speaker, I support the resolution as put forward today by the Member

for St. George's-Stephenville East. I support the initiative of the

government. I support the initiative of the Premier, the Minister of Fisheries

and Aquaculture, and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in their attempt

in Ottawa to reverse this decision. I do not know why they are going on with

this foolishness, Madam Speaker, because it is absolute foolishness. It is

insane, the comments that are coming out of them, that we do not support it. Who

in politics in Newfoundland and Labrador, sitting in this House of Assembly

today, would want the closure of a fishery that is going to displace several

thousand people, that is going to take $45 million out of our economy in

communities that have very few other options? Who in their mind would suggest

such foolishness? For the Premier to get up and suggest that we would want

something like that is absolutely absurd.

Madam Speaker, that is where we are. We support this resolution. We believe

that the FRCC was established in 1992-1993 - announced in 1992, established in

1993. It was established because DFO science, the scientific assessment, the

virtual population analysis and the scientific modeling that was being done at

that time, which is very similar to the scientific modeling that is being done

today, was flawed. It did not work at that time. The survey models are based on

a certain type of distribution in the cod fishery. If that distribution changes,

the models do not work the same and are not as effective. That was all

recognized in 1992 by the then Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, John Crosbie.

It was recognized by other ministers since then, and they supported the

Fisheries Resource Conservation Council on that approach. I know that it is open

to criticism.

To be quite honest, I understand - even though the minister gets on with

trying to throw accusations at us here today - where she was coming from when

she said: 3,500 tons, it is just as well they closed it. I understand where some

of the fishermen were coming from. The fact of the matter is these people, when

they said those things, were looking at it from the perspective of 7,000 tons

and looking at 3,500 tons and said: Well, it is just as well for it to be

closed. Well, looking at it from the perspective of 7,000 tons and looking at it

from the perspective of zero changes ones view of things. Madam Speaker, I

understand that. I understand why the minister said what she said. I understand

why some people in the industry said what they said.

I do not know if there is a reason why the government members today and over

the past couple of days - I do not know if they see where there is some

political merit or some political gain in trying to make people believe that

everybody in this Province is not on the same page as it relates to where the

fishery should be, as it relates to an open fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence

in particular. It is crazy for anybody to suggest such nonsense. I am appalled,

as everybody here is, that the Minister of Fisheries and Ocean, Minister

Thibault, has treated us with such contempt on this issue.

I asked a question today to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, a very

legitimate question: Did she ask Minister Thibault why 4X has been treated

differently than 4RS+3PN? I can only come to two conclusions, there are two

possible reasons. One is because it is in Southwest Nova Scotia, and it is in

the minister's riding. The second one is that 4X is, in large part, a big boat

fishery and 4RS+3PN cod is, in large part, a small boat fishery. Is there - and

I said this in the House in December when we had our emergency debate. I believe

it was December 2. I will stand corrected probably - but I said at that time

that there is a larger game being played out here in the fishery of Newfoundland

and Labrador today and I think we all recognize it.

There was a time when we said that the small boat fishermen were paranoid,

but I say today that just because you are paranoid it does not mean that they

are not out to get you. The fact of the matter is that this small boat fishery -

there are those in the higher levels of DFO, in particular, who want this

fishery gone. They want the small boat fishery done away with. If they can close

down the fishery in 4RS+3PN and 2J+3KL today, and get rid of what is left of the

small boat fishery in this Province and break the back, and break the chain that

is there where people go on year after year, if they can break that, they will

be rid of them for good. I think that is what is being played out here today. It

is a sad situation if that is what it is. If the fishery does not reopen in ten

years time - I know that there are individuals who are in the fishery today who

are not going to be there in ten years time but there will be somebody there to

catch fish.

Madam Speaker, I realize my time is up. I just want to say these couple of

words, that there are people who will catch this fish but they will not be

catching it in boats less than 34 feet, 11 inches. That is a sad day for the

people in the small boat fishery in our Province. That is why it is so important

for us to have this decision reversed, and it is so important to allow the

people in the fishing industry to carry on with their fishery and it is so

important to have an increased compensation package that deals with early

retirement and licence retirement so some people can move on. Some people want

to move on and leave it so that the people who are still in the fishery have the

opportunity to have a viable income.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER (Ms Hodder): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I rise today to support the private member's motion that has been put

forward by my hon. colleague for Stephenville-St. George's area.

Madam Speaker, I guess in the last week it has been a great deal of turmoil

throughout our Province, in many of our rural communities in Newfoundland and

Labrador. Whenever you talk about closing a fishery in this Province, with

little or no rationalization to do it, it certainly is one of the things that

should outrage the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Madam Speaker, I listened to many of the people who have risen here today and

talked about what the impacts of this decision are upon communities and on

people throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. As the minister, I do not have to

travel into Bonavista. I do not have to travel down to Port aux Basques or out

to Burnt Islands or up to Flower's Cove to know what the impacts are of this

decision on the people of the Province today. I only have to go into my own

district where I grew up around this fishery to know what the severe and

critical impact is upon people, upon their families and upon their communities.

I think, Madam Speaker, we have all seen what happened with the last closure

in 1992. We saw ten years of a fishery which stocks did not rebuild. We saw the

federal government and DFO look at measures that did not assist in the

rebuilding, and nor did the measures that they put forward assist in the

rebuilding of our communities.

Madam Speaker, we are ten years later in this industry in the Province, and

if there is any lesson that should be learned, it is the lesson of listening to

the people in the fishery. That is the one thing that has not happened in this

case.

When Minister Thibault took his decision in Ottawa, he omitted to listen to

the watchdogs of the fishery. He omitted to listening to the harvesters that are

out there off our shores each and every day, year in and year out. He did not

look and listen to what they were saying, Madam Speaker; he looked at only the

science. He did not adhere to the recommendations of his own FRCC, his own

conservation council, Madam Speaker, that was set up to create a balance between

what the industry was saying and what the science was saying. The same

conservation council that would recommend to him how to plan for rebuilding and

how the management of the stock should be looked at. These are the things that

he ignored, Madam Speaker.

I guess today in this Province we are dealing with two very critical

components of the recent decision. One is that we need to continue to fight to

have this fishery reopened; because, Madam Speaker, the people out there in

every one of these communities will tell you that if we do not get this decision

overturned today and we do not get this fishery reopened it could very well be a

long time before we see another fishery. That is absolutely devastating for the

people of this Province, to have to be confronted with such news on this day.

Madam Speaker, we will continue to work as a government to have this decision

overturned. We have been to the highest levels in the federal government. We

have made the case on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and on

behalf of the fishing industry.

Madam Speaker, we also have to look at where our people are today. Many of

them in our Province are going to lose their EI benefits come the end of this

month. As we speak here in this Legislature, I know of many. I can almost give

you a list of the numbers of people in this Province whose weekly income is

impacted. I talked to people in my own district, fisherpeople who work- one who

fishes cod and probably nothing else only cod, and one who works in the plant.

Both of them today have their incomes impacted. Both of them do not know where

they are going to go from here.

Madam Speaker, we have to look at the immediate need of the impacts of these

people. That was why we demanded that the federal government in very short order

make a decision with regard to EI extensions for these people, because we are

determined, Madam Speaker, we are determined to ensure that the proper package

and the proper programs are implemented in conjunction with a fishery in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Even if we get the decision overturned, even if we are able to fish 3,500

tonnes, which is our objective, we still need to have the licence retirement. We

still need to have the licence buyback. We still need to have long-term

development initiatives in our communities, Madam Speaker, because we still have

an industry where we are losing half the resource and therefore it impacts still

great numbers of people.

If we are, Madam Speaker, to be able to manage our way through this very

critical time in our history in the fishery, we have to do so standing side by

side and taking on the federal government. We cannot leave the fisherpeople, the

fish plant workers, the people in the industry, out there in our Province today

to deal with this issue on their own. They need the support of their government.

They need the leadership of government today in order to be able to have the

proper actions on this particular initiative.

I do not think it is any secret to any of us what happened in many of our

communities with a closure in 1992. We have all seen what happened. It is

heartbreaking. It is gut wrenching to watch the people who have left our

Province in search of something else. Well, Madam Speaker, I have a district

that was able to rebuild after the closure in 1992, to be able to haul itself up

from being one of the most economically depressed regions of Newfoundland and

Labrador to becoming one of the fastest growing rural economies in Newfoundland

and Labrador. As I stand here today, Madam Speaker, all of that is in jeopardy.

With a reduction of almost 40 per cent in crab quotas in one end of the district

and a closure in cod in the other end of the district, we are losing hundreds of

jobs. We have many families who are impacted, and we have a whole region whose

economy is in jeopardy.

Why, Madam Speaker? Why? Because we have left the management of a resource to

a government in the national level that does not listen to our people, does not

understand our Province, and is not willing to make decisions and management

decisions in our best interest.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Madam Speaker, we have seen for years what has happened in this

industry. What is so ironic is: I was reading a copy of a speech that was made

by the Minister of Fisheries in 1949, when we came into Confederation. I want to

read a piece of that into the Hansard today because, I tell you, it is quite

different today than it was then. The level of respect and consideration for the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador is not there today, Madam Speaker. This is

what the minister said when we entered Confederation, "The harvests of the

sea formed the substance of life for Newfoundlanders, and the life of the sea

has left its impact on the character and on the economy of the people.

The fishing industry is the one industry that has held Newfoundland together

over the years. The sturdy fishermen have provided the island with the first

line of defence from the very beginning. They are the real Newfoundlanders, and

will make real Canadians. We should be proud to welcome these fellow

Canadians."

Madam Speaker, there is nothing proud about what happened last week. There is

nothing proud in that for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador today. There

is nothing proud in the treatment and the disrespect that we have been shown by

the federal government on issues in the past months and in the past years.

Madam Speaker, we talked today about the effects of the people who are in the

fishery and to know that a national government would be able to come here and to

make a decision to close when every single entity in this Province said, you

have to keep this fishery open. They choose to ignore it. They choose to close.

Then, to turn around and offer a make-work project, a make-work project to stamp

up a few people in the fishing industry for the next year or so was absolutely

deplorable, it was disgusting and it was disrespectful, Madam Speaker.

I think that the federal government has to learn that there is a future in

rural Newfoundland and Labrador and that the people who live there know it

better than they do from 2,000 miles away viewing it from Ottawa. I think that

point has to be made over and over again.

Madam Speaker, I know my time is up and I know I have to conclude, but before

I sit down I just want to finish by saying that this government is committed to

advocating on behalf of the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador. We

will do whatever it takes in terms of making the appeals and the demands to the

federal government to have this decision overturned. We will continue to lobby

to have the appropriate measures put in place to look after the welfare of these

people and of our communities. It is time for the federal government to

understand that not only do they have the responsibility to manage, they have an

accountability to our people and to our resources. We would ask that they

concentrate on how we are going to rebuild within this industry and how we are

going to rebuild without our communities.

So, we will keep this file and we will certainly make the necessary demands

on the federal government and take the appropriate leadership, as a government,

to represent the fishing industry in this Province on this file.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I want to join the debate on the Private Member's Motion presented by the

Member for St. George's-Stephenville East on the important and devastating

closure of the cod fishery by Minister Thibault last week.

Madam Speaker, there are four parts to the resolution. The first one,

BE IT

RESOLVED that the House of Assembly call on the federal government to open the

Gulf fishery as recommended by the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council and

the Newfoundland and Labrador All-Party Committee on the 2J3KL and 3Pn3RS cod

fisheries. That is the primary one I want to speak to today, Madam Speaker,

because that is the one that is key to the resolution of this problem as has

been presented to us by the decision of the federal minister to ignore all of

the people of this Province who had very sensible, positive and forward looking

things to say about what should happen to the fishery of this Province.

Madam Speaker, I don't normally do this but I want to share a few of the

remarks that I made in a broadcast. There was a broadcast on radio today, but

recorded earlier this week, and refers to the decision of Minister Thibault as

both a shock and an outrage, a shock because it offered no real hope for the

future for so many fishery workers and their families. Mr. Thibault has

suggested that it could be decades before a return to the commercial cod

fishery, and he has offered short-term, make-work for the next two years, which

is an insult given the magnitude of the problem and the affects on 4,400 fishery

worker alone, not to mention their families and the communities and all the

other jobs and activity that will be affected.

Our all-party committee, Madam Speaker, speaking for all of us here in this

House of Assembly, our Members of Parliament elected from Newfoundland and

Labrador and the senators representing our Province was essentially ignored and

our recommendations, thought out, argued out, debated and achieved a consensus

on, were treated with contempt. Madam Speaker, when the elected leadership of

this Province speaks with one voice in a unanimous report on the future of such

an important resource, we expect to be listened to and treated with respect.

the Province.

Our committee recommended a limited commercial fishery in the Gulf of St.

Lawrence, the continuation of an information fishery in 2J+3KL, but also made

twenty-one further recommendations, which was to take a positive and proactive

approach to rebuilding the stocks.

What we wanted was a continued involvement by the fish harvesters and the

industry in rebuilding those stocks. We wanted a short- and long-term stake by

the fish harvesters and fishing communities in that rebuilding, and we wanted to

have some hope for the future.

Instead, Madam Speaker, what we got was the same dictatorial and dismissive

attitude from Ottawa, the partial acceptance of a few recommendations, and no

serious commitment to the rebuilding of the fish stocks.

Minister Thibault said it could be decades before a return to a commercial

cod fishery and offered a two-year program in response. The minister, as we

know, also ignored the advice of the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council,

which considered the scientific advice and also listened to the fish harvesters

themselves - examined the catch reports from the industry. With principles of

conservation and sustainability in the forefront of their mind, they recommended

a fishery of 3,500 tons in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Madam Speaker, the total closure of the Northern and Gulf cod fishery will

have an enormous impact on people all over this Province. It will suck the life

out of many of our communities and others will simply just die. The closure

means we will once again witness people board up houses and move to other parts

of the country.

Madam Speaker, if this decision is not changed there are other serious

implications. It underscores the serious political problem that we have in

Canada, as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. It seems that Ottawa just does not

get it. In the same way that many Canadians never understood or accepted the

problems of Quebec in Canada, it is becoming clearer and clearer that the

problems and issues that are so vital to our people and our future are not even

on the radar in Ottawa, let alone understood and respected.

Yes, we know that the Premier has gone to Ottawa and after the fact tried to

fix things up. Yes, we had an emergency debate in the House of Commons last

night, and it was a very good debate. I watched some of the debate last night.

To see, late last night, the Member for Labrador give an impassioned speech from

the heart about what his constituents and the people in his riding were feeling

and expressing to him about what was happening to them. Mr. O'Brien gave what

I would consider one of the best speeches I have heard in the House of Commons

talking about this issue. Speaking as a member of a Liberal Party whose minister

had made this decision, in fact, it was a very important and significant speech

to be made in the House of Commons. For those of you who did not see it, I would

commend the House of Commons' Hansard to see how he treated this issue and

with what great passion he spoke on behalf of the constituents of Labrador.

That debate took place. It had been requested last Thursday by Peter Stoffer,

the Member of Parliament for Musquodoboit Valley, Eastern Passage in Nova

Scotia, who is the Vice-Chair of the Fisheries Committee and a New Democratic

Member of Parliament, who also spoke in the debate.

In fact, Madam Speaker, all parties in that debate last night were critical

of the Minister of Fisheries. The three Members of Parliament from this Province

in the Liberal caucus, aside from the Minister of State for ACOA, spoke in that

debate and opposed the decision. The three members of the Tory caucus spoke.

Members of the Bloc Qubcois, and even the Canadian Alliance supported the

position that the people of this Province, the fish harvesters of this Province,

should be listened to on this issue.

But, Madam Speaker, that is not enough. It is not enough to have debates like

this. It is not enough to have debates like we had yesterday in the House of

Commons. What has to happen is that this decision must change. We must, in this

House, this government and all sides of this House, stand behind the FFAW; stand

behind and insist that the Fisheries Resource Conservation Council and the

fishery workers of this Province be listened to, and the fishing industry as

well, who recommended and believed that a sustainable harvest in the Gulf of St.

Lawrence is possible.

We have a moral obligation, a political obligation, to rebuild these stocks,

and we have an obvious economic interest as a Province in doing so, and our

communities, our fishing communities, our fish harvesters, our fish plant

workers, and our fishing industry depends on this being done. We have to find

the best way to do so. To simply take the fishery workers out of the equation

and wait for the stocks to return is a recipe for further disaster and despair.

Madam Speaker, I concluded my remarks in this broadcast with the following,

because I think it is this important. I said this: If we cannot change this

decision, it will be one more reason why our relationship with Canada and our

future in that relationship, now under consideration by a Royal Commission, is

up for grabs.

That is how serious this is, Madam Speaker. This is something that defines

the willingness, the ability, the level of understanding, the level of concern,

even, about what happens in this Province, in our nation's capital and in the

rest of the country. Because what did happen here is totally different than

1992, Madam Speaker, and not in a dismissive way that we got from Minister of

State Gerry Byrne last Thursday. Not in the dismissive way that we got from the

former Premier in the Globe and Mail last Thursday saying, well, it is

different because it was more important then than it is now. In fact, it is more

important now.

When the fishery closed in 1992, it closed with some hope and some

expectation that it would open again in the foreseeable future, and there was a

seriou