Manitoba Hansard — 12 April 1977 (Sitting 37B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-37b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542�5492 FOURTH SESSION - THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker Vol. XXIV No. 378 8:00 p.m., Tuesday, April 12, 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Tuesday, April 12, 1977 TIME: 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPL Y ESTIMA TES - PUBLIC WORKS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum gentlemen. The Comm ittee will come to order. I would refer the attention of honour able mem bers to Page 51 in their Estimates Book. Department of Public Works. Resolution 1 OO(c)

(3) Workshop Minor Projects. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, before we broke at 4:30 this afternoon, the Minister had explained what Workshop Operations under (c) (2) was and he gave us an outline. Could he do the same thing under (c)

(3) Workshop Minor Projects and sort of tell us what the difference is between the two? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: Basically, Mr. Chairman, minor repairs, renovations, fixing furniture, making the odd light fixture and repairing the same, etc. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, Workshop Operations, he mentioned about carpenters and painters and so on. Is there that much difference between Workshop Operations and Workshop Minor Projects or is it just a method of budg eting that the department uses to put it in the book as two separate items? MR.

DOERN: I might ask the honourable memb er if he would repeat his question so that I could just listen to it again. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, there is over $600,000 worth of moneys in the budget for Workshop Operations and Workshop Minor Projects. As I said earlier, the Minister gave us an outline as to Workshop Operations was a department within the Department of Public Works that did painting and repair work of existing buildings and properties and he has now said that Workshop Minor Projects is minor items such as light switches, etc. and so on. MR. DOERN: And fixtures. MR.

STEEN: And fixtures. Can he tell me, is one, operations the part of the Department that actually does the physical work and two, Workshop Minor Projects manufactures the items that are going to be installed? Is that why the items in the bud get are separated rather than lumped together? MR. DOERN: Apparently the Operations are the general operations of the Department and the Workshop Minor Projects are smal l specific projects which come into the shop. I suppose it is primar ily an accounting split and I think it would be difficult to really make a sharp distinction. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, it is my understanding that a couple of years ago, an investigation was done as to improving upon the sound system within the Legislature. Can the Minister tell me if such an investigation was done and if so, what has happened with the investigation and what does the department propose to do. MR. DOERN: Within the Chamber? MR. STEEN: Within the Chamber. MR.

DOERN: Well, I have dealt on rare occasion with acoustical engineers or acoustic specialists, whatever they are, and I really don't know if anyone in that field knows wh at they're doing, because it seems extremely difficult to find someone who is an expert in that field. If my memor y serves me correctly, I think you can look at some of the great new opera houses and concert halls that have been built in the last 10 , 20 years in the United States and elsewhere, and they have had tremendous problems with acoustics.

I think our own Concert Hall which to me is really a magn ificent creation, I think there, they also had some problem or had to make certain adjustments and so on there. Now we had problems in terms of our Chamber and a few years ago I think we called some experts in for advice. I know, for instance, experts were called in the grand staircase at the front, if you ever look at the ceiling. I've never liked the colours in the ceiling but they were the advice apparently of one of the noteworthy professors on campus. A MEMBER: Conservative blue. MR.

DOERN: Conservative blue with a little red, I think, and a little green and some other colours that I'm not so sure go together. MR. STEEN: Well red was the . . . MR. DOERN: A little pink perhaps. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, red was in respect of the Liberals. And in the days in 1962, the ND P was using green as a principal colour. 1783

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. DOERN: That's right. MR. STEEN: That's likely the selection of those colours and the reasons. MR. DOERN: In fact I'm one of those who tried to persuade my colleagues not to use green and yellow which I thought were a putrid com bination. I sugge sted orange and we started using orange. Now we're using orange and black. And my colleague is using an orange sh irt for example. MR. STEEN: We' ll have trouble blending the red in with the orange but . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(c)(3) . MR. DOERN: Jus t to continue, Mr. Chai rman. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, was such a study and a report prepared for the department? MR. DOERN: Well, yes. We did get advice and what we did, I recall quite clearly, there were some old curtains in there wh ich were really apparently not drapes but rather some sort of a thin fabric, and some sort of a makeshift acoustic tile or something on sticks or poles behind it. You couldn't see it, but it was there. So I think we wound up with professional advice and we gl ued carpeting - just portions of the walls we glued, and then we put in new drapery. Now the same thing goes with lighting.

I can tell you I am not happy with the lighting in the Chamber. I don't like the lighting. But how can you make adjustments if you did what we did here, namely, you dr op the ceiling to about 15,20 feet and wreck the beauty of the Chamber and put in som e good lighting. Then you would have nice, even lighting and you would probably have excellent acoustics. But we're trying to work around a beautiful design and we've worked on the acoustics, I think with limited success, and we've worked on improving the lighting and I think again, haven't done too well in that regard. But we have made a slight improvement. MR.

STEEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Is the sound system used in the Chamber, is ita very old one and one that is considered outdated? MR. DOERN: We apparently made some improvement in the sound system and apparently had planned, I suppose on recommendation of the Speaker and internal economy, to put in a new sound system. That was recomm ended and deleted in the restraint exercise. So if my honourable friends are recommending that, I'd be happy to relay that next year at Estimates time. MR. STEEN: That's fine on this item for me, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN� The Honourable Mem ber for Birtle-RusseJl. _ MR.

GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I want to speak on a matter of privilege, and I realize that in our Comm ittee it is very inappropriate for mem bers of the Civil Service to stand up and speak. So, I will speak on their behalf, and I would ask the Minister to reconsider his comments when he referred to mem bers in this comm ittee room wearing orange sh irts. Maybe those that are in this room may have orange sh irts and want to be identified as weari ng orange shirts, but I don't think it was an appropriate comm ent. MR. DOERN: Well I was referring to your sh irt. And I didn't realize you were a member of the Civil Service.

MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I was looking around the room . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I don't believe either mem ber ha d a matter of privilege. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I am rather curious about these items, and I would like the Minister to give us a better explanation than he has thus far. If we look at the Salaries of $1 ,228,000, that's covering a lot of people. And over a half a milli on dol lars in Workshop Operations and Minor Projects.

Jus t to be curious, does this item of Minor Work Projects cover all public build ings, not only in the City of Winnipeg, but throughout the province? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. BILTON: And does it include Headi ngley Jail? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. BILTON: Could the Minister give us a something of a breakdown as to how this money is spread out, and I recal l so well the public building in Swan River wh ich is compar atively new as you know, and I noticed with some interest that considerable office space was provided for incoming personnel - there's nothing wrong with that, Mr.

Minister, don't misunderstand me - but, I also notice, Mr. Chairman , that in the hand ling of that projectthec ivil servants were taken from Winnipeg, as I understand it, and they spent four or five months there altering that building, and this item wou ld cover those particular people would it not? MR. DOERN: Apparently the reason for that is that we were prepared to tender the project out in the Swan River area but we couldn't get any local people to undertake it, so as a result we brought in our own forces from Winnipeg. MR. BILTON: Was it advertised in the local paper, Mr . Minister? MR.

DOERN: Well, I'm not sure whether it was inserted in the outstanding local paper, but apparently there was a search made, perhaps unofficial ly or perhaps we relied on some of our staff to inform us, there was a search of some kind and it was determined that they could n't locate people to undertake the job. 1784

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, is that the policy of the department as and when reconstruction or repairs or changes in public buildings outside of the City of Winnipeg, is it the policy of the department to send their personnel from this area and pay their transportation and accommod ation and so on and, if so, does the Minister consider that economical? MR. DOERN: Well, the preference of the department is clear.

It's to use local tradesmen, it's obviously a lot cheaper to use somebody for a couple of hundred dol lars rather than fly someone in, but if we ascertain that we can't get som eone to do the job, or there's nobody there who can do the job, then we must resort to flying in our own people, or having them drive there. MR. BILTON: Well, with due respect, Mr.

Cha irman , through you to the Minister, my understanding is that the local tradesmen were entirely ignored in this particular project and I thought that was rather unfortunate, particulary when there were a considerable number of men - there were electricians and as I recall it, plumbers and plasterers and what have you - all of which were available locally. Heaven knows we need those local jobs and they've got to be competitive but I see no purpose, in my humble opinion, Mr.

Chairman, that tradesmen are transported from Winnipeg 300 miles north and are there for four or five months, if not longer, doing this work when local people could have very well done it. MR. DOERN: We apparently tendered all the sub-contracts which would mean that we acted as the general contractor and some of them were awarded - for example, Brandon contractor in one instance was the lowest bidder and they received that part of the component. MR.

BILTON: I just merely bring the these matters to the attention of the Ministerf or what they are worth and I'm sure the department has a considerable number of buildings in The Pas, much more than they possib ly have elsewhere outside of Brandon, and I would hope that in the future the department would give the local businessm en, or the local tradesm en, the benefit of whatever business may be available through the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the renovations to the courthouse building in Minnedosa cost, and if the recently renovated space in that building is now fully utilized, and who occupies that space? MR. DOERN: We' ll have to dig that up. Maybe we could go on and come back to that in a minute or two. MR. BLAKE: Very good. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: I would like to ask, through you to the Minister, if any of the historical buildings in this province are a responsibility of Public Works? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: No not per se.

I suppose some government buildings might be regarded as historic but that really doesn't fall into our responsibility like renovating say, Dalnavert which is on Carlton Street or something like that. We haven't undertaken those projects, but this is certainly a historic building and the Law Courts is, and the Auditorium is, in my judgme nt, a historic building' and Land Titles is, etc., so to that extent, but in the general sense of the word historic we are not renovators outside of government buildings that are considered historic. MR.

EINARSON: Could the Minister tell us what is the cost of the rest room station across the street on the north side of Broadway, and the time that was bui lt? MR. DOERN: We'll have to dig that one up too. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(c) (3). The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, whi le we're dealing with that phase of it, does the power house over here fall into the same category? MR. DOERN: Of a historic building? MR. GRAHAM: Well, it falls within your responsibility does it not? MR. DOERN: It certainly does.

That's the general source of heat and air conditioning in the core area here. MR. GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate what plans the government has for the renovations within that building? MR. DOERN: Of the Power House? MR. GRAHAM: Yes. MR. DOERN: I assume the member isn't confusing the Land Titles with the Power House. MR. GRAHAM: No, the Power House. MR. DOERN: The Power House. Well, we put on an addition there, I guess a few years ago, a couple of years ago' and I don't believe there are any plans to do anything there beyond that. MR.

GRAHAM: All the equipment in the Power Hous e at the present time then is modern and up to-date is it? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. GRAHAM: Okay. 1785

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: For the edification of my col league and certainly the Minister, probably my colleague is referring to that

part in that area that was set aside for parolees? MR. DOERN: Are you talking about the Vaughan Street Detention Home or something? MR. BILTON: No, it was in the old steam building, as I recall it. Is that the space he is referring to? MR. DOERN: It's still being used for day par olees. MR. BILTON: It's still being used. MR. DOERN: Of course old Vaughan Street is too. MR. BILTON: Yes, well probably that was what my colleague from Birtle-Russell was referring to, I don't know. I just threw that in for what it was worth. MR. DOERN: He talked about equipment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(c) (3)-p ass; (c)

(4) Furniture and Furnishings. The Honourab le Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister on (c)

(4) Furniture and Furnishings, what are the funds used for, is it making furniture, purchasing new furniture ? - $937,000, some odd - almost a mil lion dolla rs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: That's right across the system and that's basic ally, I suppose, new furniture. MR. EINARSON: New furniture. Then I would imag ine there are sometimes old furniture that are being changed and not being used anymore. Can the Minister indicate what happens to that furniture that probably still could be used by someone. MR.

DOERN: Well, if it's oi a certain quality like these chair s on the sides here, these are old but honourable chairs, and the chai rs that you're sitting on, etc., we take some care in keeping them going. In other cases we auction off furniture occasionally. In other cases, of course, simply discard what is really beyond repair. But, I think that we recycle our furniture quite well. I think that ittends to be used indefinitely. That's the sort of general policy, but every now and then we discard and auction. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicates that they do have an auction on furniture at times. Can the Minister indicate when was the last time they had an auction sale? MR. DOERN: Jan uary 15th of this year was the last. MR. EINARSON: Could the Minister indicate, Januar y 15th of this year, was there an auction sale held at all in 1976 of the furniture that probab ly could still be of value to someone? MR. DOERN: Yes there was. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, how was this made aware to the public as to when these auction sales are held? MR.

DOE RN: Apparently a rough example might be about half a dozen times a year and there are ads placed in the papers. Now I assume they are just in the Winnipeg dail ies, and rural Manitoba, some weekly advertising. MR. EINARSON: Are these put in the daily papers? I understand, Mr . Chairman, that the staff say the advertisements are placed in the daily papers as we ll as the local papers throughout the rural parts of the Province of Manitoba? MR. DOERN: Some weekly papers. I could n't give you a list of them but I guess there is a sampling. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I posed a direct question to the Minister about a year ago asking about this very thing and through his Deputy I was given to understand that - because I asked of a particular case where people were interested in knowing when an auction sale would take place, and whether he just om itted to inform us, forgot about it or what, but we never did hear about it. This is one of the reasons why I'm asking these questions as to whether, if a request like that comes to me again then I would have them watch for the papers and take note of when the sales are being held. MR.

DOERN: I'll ask one of my assistants to let us know the next date and we'll attempt to inform the honourable memqer. I assume he knows that my Deputy has suffered a heart attack and otherwise would be here. Mr. Nordman who is my right-hand man suffered a heart attack on Thursday and has been in intensive care and may just now be out of it, and then he's going to probably require a couple more weeks of recuperation in the hospital and maybe another couple of months before it's busi ness as usual, so we are all rather saddened by that. Mr. Osler is my Assistant Deputy and he is filling the breach. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I was not aware of the illness of your Deputy Minister, a gentleman who I know and who has relations in my constituency and I'm sorry to hear about that. I wish him well and hope that he will be back with you soon. I wonder if the Minister, Mr. Chairman, could give us the cost of the furniture in our di ning-room downstairs that was established last year? Is it itemized separately? MR. DOERN: No, we would have to break that out for you. We certainly have that but I don't know if we can put our finger on it right now. MR.

EINARSON: On these sales, where is the revenue shown on auction sales when you sell 1786

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 furniture or anything that was once the property of government? MR. DOERN: We don't have it here in our Estimates. The money is acquired and passed on to Consolidated Revenue so although we could obtain that, again we don't have an item in our Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDE RSON: Mr. Chairman, my question was partly answered, I was just wondering about the lunch-room facil ities and the equipment costs for the basement. Do you know that figure? MR. DOERN: Well, my mem ory fails me agai n. I certainly recall the debate with the press.

I don't really recall the precise amount of money tor renovations and furnishings but we'll get that. MR. HENDERSON: It seems to me the press was running about $300,000 and it was only about a halt of it. MR. DOERN: That's right. I think it's considerably less than that. MR. HENDE RSON: I would just like to get the final figures on that. MR. DOERN: I'm sure my honourable friend will ag ree it was money well spent. MR. HENDERSON: It certainly is an improvement and I don't think it was too lavish considering it was being done with the times. And it's to do tor many years to come, I have to agree with you there. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I notice, and I compliment the Minister, there was a cutback of something in the neighbou rhood of $400,000 in this item. I realize that possibly last year's figures of over a million dollar s included no doubt the furnishing of the Woodsworth Buildi ng and possibly publ ic buil dings in Bra ndon. But $937,200 is quite a lot of money.

In going thr ough government offices from time to time when I have the occasion to do so, I notice that the equipment is fully modern and right up-to-date and I have wondered sometimes what has happened with regard to a lot of these steel tiling cabinets that are as good as the day they were bought and they are sim ply cast aside tor more modern furnishings.

I jus t wonder it this is not be ing overdone and that money migh t be saved , particularly in this particular time of inflation and so on, in the continual use of som e of the furnishings which, as I said a moment ago, are as good as the day they were bought but not as modern as they may look. I wonder it the Minister is keeping his finger on that? While I'm on that subject, I wonder it this item includes the furnishing otthe lodge at Hecia Island? Added to that, to finish oft my questions, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I wonder how much of this money is going to the Indian - tor the use of a better term, I've seen it somewhere - Furniture Factory that is prod ucing furniture. Are there certain funds here going to them in buying their product tor use in government buildi ngs, and it so, how much? MR. DOERN: Apparently all that steel desk furniture you are talking about is still around. It's shifted around. I could show you, I guess, places wher e you have some very old wooden desks that have been used tor decades and simila rly the steel furniture is around.

It may be shifted, but it's in use and some of it has been renovated and patched up, etc. I' m informed that there has been about $1 00,000 worth of recycling, including repairs to it, etc. Hecia Island, or Gull Harbour, we have nothing to do with in Public Works, that's not our project. We answered last night for the Member for Lakeside who asked a question on purchases from St. Laurent. They have a furniture co-op or something and we have bought material from them, some chai rs and desks and coat racks, etc.

We tried to otter some gu idance and also to work with their representatives but we found that the difficult problem there was sort of production and price. Although their product is not bad, their ab ility to del iver quantities is not that good, and so we have made purchases but we haven't found them to be a satisfactory supplier. MR. BILTON: Just one other question. I appreciate the Minister's interest in this gover nment sponsored project of the Indian people. Does the Minister have the authority for purchasing furniture for these wayside parks throughout the province? MR.

DOERN: That would come under Tourism and Recreation. MR. BILTON: They buy that furniture, do they? MR. DOERN: And manufacture some of it themselves. MR. BILTON: And they manufacture some of it themselves. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, just to carry on in that vein, I was wondering if the government is considering the purchase of a considerable number of paddles from the Xyloid Corporation in Dauphin seeing as how we are head ing into the election season in the near future? MR.

DOERN: Bearing in mind that there will be a drought, I don't know if we will need them. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, seriously, I was wonderi ng, in the field of refurbish ing of furniture, how much of the work is done by the department itself and how much of it is contracted out? MR. DOE RN: In terms of repair, the greatest percentage is done within the department. In terms of new production, we do some production but essentially I guess most of the purchasing of new furniture is naturally outside and most of the repairs are done by us. Some of our very highly qualified 1787

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 employees are people who can refinish tables in the sense of experts with wood and table top renovations, cabi net makers, etc., outstanding work done in the shop. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the reason I asked the question, I believe just down the hall in what used to be the libr ary, I noticed that there are a considerable number of chair s of this type that are stacked there. I imagine they are there for repairs and I was wondering whether the department planned on doing that work themselves or contracting it out? MR. DOERN: Two points on an earlier question.

As an example, in the lounge downstairs, the Member s' Lounge, those tables, I guess the coffee tables, etc., the wooden ones were made by our department and some of the chair s were upholstered - I think the red cord uroy plush types -w ere done in our shop. In terms of the library, those will be done, agai n, by us and there is some need there. I have asked my people to do something about those tables in the libr ary which I think either have to be refinished or covered because they are in pretty sad condition.

I think that's a beautiful room but the furniture is rather shabby in there and I think it's time it was upgraded. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe in the past the department or the government has, I think, sent some of the expensive hig h-grade furniture to eastern establ ishments for refurbish ing. MR. DOERN: Not that we are aware of. MR. GRAHAM: It's all done right here then? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chair man, through you to the Minister, there's a $400,000 reduction in the budget this year.

What was it in 1976 for this item, do you have that figure available, and was 1977 an exceptionally high year because of the furnishing of the Wood sworth Building? MR. DOERN: The previous year the figure was considerably high er, it was $2.1 million, and then it went down to this $1 .3 and this coming year our projection is for $900,000.00. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I as a taxpayer welcome the reductions but was the 1976 high and then the 1977 year, was that to furnish major bui ldings like the Woodsworth, things that don't com e up each and every year? MR.

DOERN: These are a score of projects, etc. for furnishings, but did not include the Woodsworth Building. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Woodsworth Building furnishings would have been included in the total cost of that building, when it was capitalized. MR. DOERN: Yes, and I think there is an amou nt, as I recall , of about $2.5 mill ion for furniture, furnishings, etc. MR. STEEN: Over the past few years we spent more than we are this year on furnishings, were we in a catch-up period there for awhile and we're sort of caught up?

Or is the great reduction, again, like you answered a question this afternoon, caused because Cabinet said we must reduce the costs? MR. DOERN: Going back a few years, there have been varying increases in the abso lute size of the Civil Service, and I guess a few years ago there is always a sort of a time lag. If you add , say, 100 employees, you don't buy the furniture for them the same day, there's a sort of a lag in terms of when they are phased in and when the furniture is required, the work stations, etc.

So this was basically a catch-up from a few years ago and over the last couple of years we have been cutting down the size of the increases. It is also a reflection of the number of employees added and obviously it has gone from $2 million to $1 million something to less than a milli on. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, when the Department of Public Works is in the ma rket to purchase furnishings, I would trust that it is done by tender. Is it done by quotation if it's a small enough item, rather than going to actual public tender? MR.

DOERN: Very smal l items would be done by emergency purchase or by phone tendering but normally it's ... MR. STEEN: Advertised tendering for every item? Pretty well? MR. DOERN: Or invitation to tender. We have lists of available or known suppliers, people we do busi ness with, people who want to be on the list, etc. MR. STEEN: In the Manitoba market, are there sufficient numbers of persons interested in tendering for government furnishings, or do we have to go outside the province in many of the cases? MR. STEEN: Getting back to a question I asked earlier, Mr.

Chair man, by the Member for Rock Lake, regard ing the auctions in the sale of used furniture and so on, I bel ieve the Minister said that suctl auctions may occur as frequently as six times a year. Could he inform the Committee as to the dollar s that are der ived from these sales? MR. DOERN: For the past twelve months, about $30,000.00. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the purchasers of such turn ish i ngs wou Id pay the Minister of Finance, and that's the reason why the money does not go into the department. MR. DOERN: Right. 1788

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. STEEN: And that is why you don't have a recoverab le in this item, eh? MR. DOERN: Correct. MR. STEEN: No further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be accused of being parochial but I think that I'd like to bring to the attention of the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman, something which I would hope that he is considering and is in this figure over-al l as my last kick of the cat. I wondered if the Minister is considering lighting befitting the agg regation of famous men on the Speaker's public gallery out here. MR.

DOERN: Well, Mr. Chair man, when the honourable member finally does retire and we go down to the basement and br eak open that case, the way they used to break open the Phar aoh's tomb and put his picture in the hal lway, I'm sure that his picture will illuminate the others. MR. BILTON: The lighting, that's horrible. MR. DOE RN: Well, I'll tell you what my plan is. The Speaker and I have different views on this, the present Speaker and I. My plan is, assuming I can get concurrence, there is a similar room to this on the other side of the hallway which is really in very dr eadful condition. We've been using it.

If you want to see the cheapest renovation ever done by the Department of Public Works, we can take you in there. I think it cost 36 cents, because it's used as is and it's the same kind of room and we've had people in there for the past year. I think that in the future, either in the next year or the next couple of years, it should be renovated to another hearing room. There apparently is a need for another room of this .... MR. BILTON: Com mittee room. MR. DOERN: ... kind, a com mittee room .

And my thought was, when that room is developed, one or two years from now, if ever, that that room should contain all the portraits of the Speakers. The present Speaker prefers the portraits to be in the hall. And we did look into lighting them, and have considered that. Somehow or other, it just never got done, about individ ual lighting. The problem with those portraits in the hal l is that they have been damaged on occasion. MR. BILTON: Lately? MR. DOERN: Well, you may have noticed that up until a few weeks ago there was one of the large portraits missing.

And it only takes one idiot one second to sink a ballpoint pen or a finger or a knife into the canvas. We've never had any problem here. But in the hal lway, unless you have constant monitoring or you have TV camer as or guards or alarm systems or something - even then, as you know, somebody a couple of years ago went to St. Peter's Basilica with a hammer and started smashing one of Michelangelo's works. But I find it unsatisfactory. It's glo omy, but my inclination is to leave it as is until we renovate and then display in similar fashion all the portraits. MR.

BILTON: With my picture on the end, it will scare the hell out of them. They won't interfere with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(c) (4). MR. DOERN: I must, Mr. Chair man, relate this anecdote to the Member for Swan River. One day MR. BILTON: He can't hurt me now. MR. DOERN: One day in the House, we were trying to think of slogans or statements that epitomize each member of the Legis lature, a shor t phrase that would tell all about him. My sugge stion for the Member for lnkster was as follows, "I'll show you how the opposite is true."That's his famous statement.

But one was sugg ested for the Member for Swan River. And this would be in a mild circumstance, say, someone speeding 32 miles an hour when he was in his heyday as a member of the police force. And the saying that we felt would most typify him, put forward by a colleague of mine, was as fo llows: Someone doing a minor misdemean our and the Member for Swan River appearing on the scene saying to that person, "You'll swing for this. " MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(c) (4)-pa ss; (c)-pass. Resolution 100(

d) Leased Accom modations

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: Under No. 1 - Salaries, Mr. Chair man, to the Minister. Can he tell me the number of staff in this particular division? MR. DOERN: Five staff, and that's no change from last year. MR. STEEN: Under Other Expenditures, I have a number of questions, but no further under Salaries. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(d)(1)- pass. pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Cha irman, I'd like the Minister - and I know that he is not going to have this information at his fingertips - but if he would get it for the Commi ttee, it's of particular interestto me - as to the amount of office and comm ercial space that is leased by the Department of Public Works from private concerns, and if he could tell me, if it's not too big a job, who we are leasing our space 1789

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 from, what companies. MR. DOERN: I think the first figure we could come up with easily, but the other one I think would require an Order for Return. I recall last year producing a lengthy Order. I don't know if it's hundreds. Well, 300 different firms. Some of it is not that informative. I suppose what's informative are the rates paid. But you know, otherwise you get the name of a company and you may not know who on earth that is. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. I wasn't particularly interested if, say, the Department of Agriculture leased space in the town of Car man.

What I was meaning was sizeable leasing arrangements where, for example, Autopac - and I believe they're still atthe Bank of Montreal. I was meaning the sizeab le ones in the metropolitan Winnipeg area, sizeabl e leasing arrangements. I'm not interested in the smal ler ones in the rural areas. MR. DOERN: Well, again, would you consider that to mean over 5,0 00 or 10,000 square feet or 20,000? MR. STEEN: Something over 5,000 square feet. The larger leases.

The reason why I'm asking the question is I'm wondering how much of the new downtown office buildin g whic h the Mayor of our city is always bra gging about, that we have a new buil ding coming onstream almost every year - I'm wondering how much of this office space that's com ing onstream each and every year is being utilized by the public service. I don't have access righ t now in asking the Federal Government or the City of Winnipeg , but I'm concerned as to how much of this office space is being utilized by the Provincial Government.

So when the City of Winnipeg brags about the fact that there's another 15- storey buil ding going up in Winnipeg, and that industry and comm erce in Winnipeg is really bo oming, is it boom ing if 40 percent of that buil ding is being occupied by public civil servants of the Provincial Government who are really just moving from one other buil di ng that might be five or six years old into the new one. Mr. Chairman, does the Minister follow my line of questioning? MR. DOERN: Yes. I can give you a few ... MR. STEEN: Examples? MR. DOERN: Large examples.

First of all, my experience is that there have been some new developments com ing onstream, and I find that most of them seem to be owned by banks and insurance companies which I suppose isn't surpr ising. But in the case of Winnipeg, which is our District No. 1, we lease in 76 build ings and the total amount of leased accommodation is 718 ,000 square feet. So I figure the Woodsworth Bu ilding would be just under 200,000 ... is it 220 net or gross? Two hundred twenty gross. So, say, 190 or whatever it is net, would be the equivalent of almost four Woodsworth buildin gs. MR. STEEN: Therefore, Mr.

Chai rman, what the Minister is saying is that in District 1, the province is leasing four times the space of the Woodsworth building. MR. DOERN: Approximately. MR. STEEN: Was my earlier question about the larger leasing arrangements, in which buildin gs they're in, is this possible to get this information? MR. DOERN: Oh yes. Well, you know, bear in mind that I guess we're talking about ... I don't know the exact size of the Civil Service ... what is it, 12,000? Or is it 13,000 people? MR. STEEN: Mr. Chai rman, I'm not arguing or disputing the Minister's statement about the number of employees.

I ag ree with him that they've got to be housed somewhere and they've got to be in reasonably suitable accommo dation. The purpose of my question earl ier was to find out how much of this new on stream downtown construction is being utilized by the province, (a); and (

b) part would be: In the future, what is the department's thinking as to buil ding further buildings like the Woodsworth buil ding? If we are currently leasing four times approximately what the Woodsworth building is, is it practical for the province to either erect another simi lar buil ding at an early date in the future, or buy an existing downtown buil ding? Or are these leases in such small units that it is far better and more practical that these leases be with the private sector? MR. DOERN: Well, the member is really getting into an interesting philosophical area close to my heart.

You're raising a classical question about lease or build. I would assume that the Member for Crescentwood or some of his colleagues would be more inclined to lease space ratherthan buil d itto lease from private developers or private bui lders. My inclination is to build more because I believe ,that we can build as cheaply or operate as efficiently on a square-foot basis as any developer. We have certain advantages. For example, we don't pay federal sales tax. We don't require a profit. We can use the same contractors that they use, we can use the same architects that they use, and so on and so on.

I can tell you what our policy is in terms of rural Manitoba whic h has evolved in the lastfew years. The earlier policy of my department when I cam e in - I assume this was the policy prior to my arrival and perhaps prior to our government, I don't know about that- but the general policy was that when we were going to buil d provincial bui lding in a rural centre, a town, that we would take up all the leases that we had, add in a growth factor and build, so that we would in effect consolidate all space in one building, plus a growth factor. In the last few years that has been debated further in Cabinet and 1790

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 the new policy struck, namely, that we should tend to take up about two-thirds of the space. So it would be on a kind of two to one ratio, about 50 percent of what was in the build ing would be leased outside the building, so that it wouldn't have a harsh effect on the smal ltown merchants and buildingo wners, etc. Now in Winnipeg, it's harder to kind of come up with that particular formula. But the U.S. Government tends to follow that.

I remember attending a seminar one time where American representatives were at and I recall their representatives saying they worked on a kind of a two to one ratio. I guess there are greater or lesse1· tendencies in my case. I am one of those who would arg ue that we should buil d and operate our own space to the largest possib le extent. I wouldn't be prepared to take up all the leases, but I would be mo re inclined to build space required by the government. Others would be less inclined but the official government policy is about a two to one ratio of build to lease.

But I think that's probably out of whack right now and we probab ly are leasing a higher percentage. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman , I would trustthat that policy is primarily in practice for the rural areas. It would be an im possible policy to follow in urban Winnipeg, I would think. It would take years to reach that point. MR. DOERN: Well, as I said , the previous government was not inclined to build much. Let's look at a little bit of history here. The Norquay Building has a very interesting history.

I have heard it enough to know that it's true, that one weekend the Cam pbell government decided they were going to put up a new office building. And they called in a firm of architects and said , "We want something for Monday." This was sort of on a Friday afternoon. So the boys went to work and I guess dr afted some quick rough sketch of a plan and in a weekend the Norquay Building was born. Unfortunately, there are some very very serious flaws with the Norqua y building. One is they're shor t of elevators, at least one or two elevators shor t, because the building was planned for a smaller size.

Another one is the configu ration of long corridors. You walk down a central hall and offices on left and right seems to be one of the worst designs. The square or greater rectangle seems to be a much better design. So the Norquay Building was built and opened in '59 or '60. Now from that time, to the Woodsworth Building, there were no office buildings of that type built. So that all the space requirements in the Roblin years, in effect, were leased . Now, other things were built.

Red River Com munity College was built, and I can't help but say every time I think of Red River I get ill when I think of the amount of money that we have to spend to renovate that particular facility. There's a real misfortune there, namely that the architects hired a structural engineer who poorly designed segments of the comple x which has cost a considerab le amount of money to repair. But, the Roblin government built a lot of schoo ls and built some of the, I suppose, hospitals that we run or added to them, built Red River, etc. etc.

But in terms of pure office buildings, from 1959 until the Woodsworth Building opened in '76, there were no buildings built in 17 years. So there was some catch-up required. I would say a better policy would be to build one similar office tower every five years or so. That's probab ly about the ratio that you would require. Excuse me, Mr.

Chairman, that does not necessarily mean in the downtown area, that could be in other parts of the city and could be in the subur ban areas or the core areas, could be at Fort Osborne, it could be on the outskirts, it could be low profile, it could be in smal ler quantities, but, I think that it is a necessity. One of the things we continually do is this, we find that when departments are scattered in half a dozen or a dozen locations or more, it's just not efficient. The best type of operation is when you have your people all under one roof. It seems that that is most efficient for government and for business.

MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I' m sure that when the Honourable Minister is sitting with the Honourable Minister of Highways and other colleagues around the Cabinet table, buildings to house civil servants must rank rather low on the priority list in relation to bridges and ditches and water drainage for agriculture and so on. So, I can appreciate the problem that any Minister of Public Works would have in trying to acquire a new building every five or six years.

On the subject of buildings, can the Minister tell me if there are any discussions going on with the Great West Life people about the possibility of acquiring that building? And if there are none now, were there some in the past, and can he update me as to the rumour s I've heard in the past as to the possibility of the provincial government acquiring that property? MR.

DOERN: Well, I would also say in answer to your earlier statement that there seems to be a sharp dichotomy if the prov. incial government is building new buildings outside of Ninnipeg, then it seems that we're greeted with open arms, that we can do no wrong when we build a new provincial government office bui lding. -(I nterjection)- In Dauphin, as my colleague and I are going up there on Monday to official ly comm ence construction on the new Dauphin office building. And when we go out of the perimeter, we are conquering heros and treated with great respect.

In the City of Winnipeg , we get br icks and criticism and abuse and I really cannot reconcile the two. I just fail to comprehend the attitude of some Winnipeg politicians, both on council and in the legislature, I just fail to understand. I, too, am a Winnipeg politician and I think that it's beneficial to the City, but others 1791

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 seem to take some other peculiar view. The solution, I suppose, would be to build all the buildi ngs outside of Winnipeg and then everybody in Winnipeg would be happy, at least for about five minutes, and then everybody outside of Winnipeg would be happy. That would appear to be the solution, but it's not one I would recomm end.

Now, in regard to Great West Life, a couple of years ago I was engaged in negotiations with representatives of Great West Life, but I think because of the small progress that they have had in terms of untracking their development, the CN - Great West Development which, I think, is really maybe the largest ever in Manitoba's history, they're talking several hundred million dollars of development. That is going to take some time and even if they proceed this year or next year, it will take several years to build the buildi ngs, even the first buildings for them to then move.

So, you're talking three, four, five years down the road before, say, you will see Great West move its employees down Broadway into that new multi-million dollar development. But, because of, I guess, their negotiations with the City and so on, we have temporarily set out of our minds the possibility of acquiring that property and commencing any renovation to existing buildings or any new construction, but I think it makes great sense, eminent good sense to acquire that site. I wish it had been acquired years ago.

I think- I believe it was the Cam pbell government- that had the chance of buying it in the days of Osborne Stadium, etc., but they let it go, and it's a natural to tie in with this particular legislative core area. I guess about the only thing we've done recently, other than acquiring the odd property around here, is last year we were able, with the support of all parties, to limit the heights in the area' to make sure we don't get too many skyscrapers right across the street. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister remarked about the Norquay Building having some disadvantages as being a functional build ing.

Would he consider the Great West Life building to be a much better buildi ng, as far as day-to-day functioning, than say a building like the Norquay Building? MR. DOERN: Apparently, that's a difficult question to answer, there are some problems there too. Apparently there are some small subdivisions of space there etc., then I guess there are some large open spaces which are attractive and which I don't decry, but also doesn't maximize the function or utility of that buil ding. But, I don't know how long the building has been there, I forget the year. - (Interjection)- '58.

But I assume it would require some renovations to it. It's a fairly large buildi ng, but it seems to be in fairly good shape. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairm an, I have two concerns about the province perhaps taking over the Gr eat West Life buildi ng. I wonder if the camels that are placed above the main entrance at Christmas time would be maintained by the province, and secondly, I think one of the nicest spots in Winnipeg for scenery is at 4:30 in the afternoon in front of the Great West Life buildi ng.

I wonder if there is anyway that the Minister of Public Works could assure us that the camels and the scenery would stay. MR. DOERN: I think the honourable member has the following problem . He works primar ily in the Legislature where there are only 300 or 350 employees. Now, if he comes over to the Woodsworth Building where there are maybe 800 employees, I think he will see a larger representation of the fairer sex. A MEMBER: But no camels. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chair man, on the subject of leased accommodat ions, I should have asked this question on the previous item, so hopefully you will permit me to ask it.

There was some talk about the province developing a parkade on Edmonton Street, north of Broadway, just south of the Convention Centre -(Int erjection)- York Street. Can the Minister update the members of the Com mittee as to where that sits today? MR. DOERN: That was approved by the government and we proceeded to design the structure. I mean you have to understand that the department has certain responsibilities, and our responsibility is to provide parking, and we recommended that parkade which also could take a buildi ng on top in the future. The structure was designed to take 1, 200 vehicles.

That was a recommendation of ours based on the number of employees in the area and future projections. And then my colleagues decided that they would be encouraging or continuing the use of the private car in the area and the general government policy is to favour public transit, so it was felt that in spite of the recommendation of our department that we required this much parking for now and in the future, the project was shelved on the theory that we shou Id discourage our employees from coming to work in their cars, and encourage the use of transit. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, how much offstreet parking is there for government employees and people doing business with the government in the vicinity of the legislative buildings? MR. DOERN: I don't have that handy. MR. STEEN: I'm saying government owned, not comm ercially operated parking lots. MR. DOE RN: Right. We'd have to be guessing. The expert on parking is Mr. Nordman and he's not here. We'll have to dig that one out for you. But, I give you an example, theWoodsworth Building has, 1792

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 I think, what - 8 parking spaces? MR. STEEN: How did you ever get that past the City Environment Com mission? MR. DOERN: I don't know - smooth talker. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Persons wanting to visit the Legislative Buildings, whether they be tourists or coming here to transact some business, what available parking is there on these gr ounds for non-employees? MR. DOERN: Again, I have problems with numbers but there are, I suppose, several dozens of spaces available. There are areas for visitors. I don't know if it's an hour or a couple of hou rs; two hour parking.

But, as you know, it's pretty tight. My Executive Assistant told me this morning he drove around and around and around and around for over half an hour trying to find a spot. I assume that should discourage one from bringing one's vehicle. MR. STEEN: I have a tip for your Executive Assistant, he can usually get away with parking in the Leader of the Liberal Party's spot. It is very infrequently used. MR. DOERN: I don't know if that's a plug for my EA or a slam at the Libera ls. MR. STEEN: I'm just trying to help him out. Mr.

Chair man, the Minister remarked earlier about how if the government builds a building in rural Manitoba they are greeted with open arms, yet they have difficulty building buildings in the City of Winnipeg. I might point out to him that one of the unfortunate proble ms- and I'm sure he is aware of it- that occurs in large cities is nobody wants to live on a bus line, but everybody wants that bus line to be on the next street. They want the availability of a bus route, yet they don't want it on their street.

And when I was associated with the City of Winnipeg in the recreation field we were trying to find locations in Winnipeg in which to erect arenas. Everybody wanted an arena in his district, but damn it all, don't put it on my street or within a blo ck of my home, because I don't want the congestion that goes with it. I think this is a similar problem that occurs with large buildings, and naturally the government being the landlord and the developer of such a building ends up being the whipping boy under such circumstances. MR. DOERN: In that regard, Mr.

Chairman, there's no doubt in my mind that that was the experience of the honourable member when he was a councillor, but our experience has been quite good. I am not really familiar with any great number of complaints or considerable flak or resistance in the towns of Manitoba or the other cities. We usually work out the locations with the council and we've had very little problem . I can't even recall an example, in my six years in the department, of a complaint along those lines. There may have been but none have come to my desk. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman , usually the smaller councils appreciate having such structures. I' m sure the City of Brandon, when they got their new provincial buildi ng, appreciated such a structure. The Minister mentioned earlier that he woul d be travelling to Dauphin for the opening of a new structure there shortly. MR. DOERN: A sod-turning. MR. STEEN: A sod-turning. It was mentioned to me some weeks ago that approximately two years ago you had an opening of a building in Thom pson and at that time approximately thirty or more department people flew up for that occasion.

I would hope that this time you are not going to need to take 30 some odd people department people with you to Dauphin for a sod-turning. MR. DOERN: Well, I don't think that figure is accurate. I recall meeting with the Town to outline our : plans for the new Thom pson office building, but I recall there was I think about eight of us in a plane' including the architect, etc. So, certainly the figure 30 is incorrect. It was one plane and and eight, maybe ten people at the very most, up there. In the case of Dauphin, I intend to drive up and I suppose there'll be half a dozen people from my staff.

We'll meet with the town council and the rural municipality. This is, I think, a project of some imp ortance and consequence in the Dauphin area. It's a $4 million building. These only come along once every ten or twenty years, so I think it deserves some attention. MR. STEEN: Under Leased Accommod ations Recoverab le from Canada, 140, 000, can the Minister tell me what that is as a result of? MR. DOERN: Those are again cost-shared programs from various provincial departments. MR. STEEN: That's fine, Mr. Chairm an. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, to come back to this item of Other Expenditures $5,640,000 for Leased Accom modation. I've listened to what has been said so far, and I must say, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister with due respect, that I'm not very well satisfied with the explanation we've got. Here's one-fifth of the total budge t for the department tied up in this one item. It seems to me tor the last ten or fifteen minutes we've been talking about everything but.

Can the Minister assure us that the space that this $5,640,000 is covering, is being fully occupied, and if not, how much of it is not being occupied at this moment, and how much rent are we paying for that, or lease? It's a lot of money. 1793

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. DOE RN: Well, first of all, I wou Id draw to the attention ofthe member that if he considered the amount of money that he probab ly put into his house over a period of time on . MR. BILTON: It's a log cabin. MR. DOERN: ... a log cabi n. MR. BILTON: Yes. Don't worry about that. MR. DOERN: No. But I'm saying, the average person spends a fair amount of his time and his income supporting his house. You have to have a physical structure in wh ich you either live or work. Some people also are mor e fortunate still and have sum mer cottages and other residences.

In terms of our vacancy rate, the only way you can look at the efficiency of the department is to look at the vacancy rate. Our figure for the entire system is three percent, so we have a 97 percent occupancy at any given time, and that three percent is made up of a lot of nooks and crannies, a lot of small offices, etc., that are sprinkled throughout the system, or vacant space, some not usable, as well. MR. BILTON: Is the Minister sugge sting to us now then, that had not the Norquay Building been built, we would be dealing with $7 mil lion in leases, or did it make that much difference? MR.

DOERN: Are you talking about the Woodsworth Bu ilding or the Norq uay Building? MR. BILTON: The Woodswor th Building, yes. MR. DOERN: Well, the Woodsworth Building is about 220,0 00 square feet gross. So if you had to rent that space at $7 or $8 a square foot you wou Id have a factor there of another million and a half, or more. MR. BILTON: Would it be possib le for the Minister, through you, Mr. Chair man, to tell us what the total was under this item for 1975? MR.

DOERN: Bear in mind there's two things happening - one is, the.re's a takeup, and the second factor, of course, is that there is also an annual increase of staff. You want to know what it was MR. BILTON: Just by way of comparison. Are we going down or going up? MR. DOERN: The year previous, the figure was 4.2 million. MR. BILTON: Well why the mil lion last year and another 200,000 this year? Is it going to continue to go up? Do you foresee that? MR. DOE RN: It depends on two factors. You're talking leased here. If we have a building program, that'll go down. If we hold staff constant that'll stay.

So it's in relation to those two variab les. How much are we going to build, and then there'll be the annual increments in rent. So it's not easy to give an answer to that. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairma n, through you to the Minister, does this figure concern the Minister? Is he worried about it? Does he see some way of reducing this enormous figure of leased property by the government, because it is, as I said a mom ent ago, it's one-fifth of your total budget. MR. DOERN: The member is asking a very comp lex question. I have a number of conflicting concerns.

I'd be prepared to reduce it somewhat by building, but at the same time, we also have a certain concern about unemployment and so on. If you cut the size of the civil service or you hang tough on the percentage increases and you have thousands of Manitobans employed and so on, I have that kind of a concern as well. MR. BILTON: Ju st to throw our mind back just a little way, we had the Queen's Printer and all his accessories here in the basement, and we took over, or at least the Province took over the Civic Centre, I bel ieve it's called, down here, the old aud itorium. That, I'm sugge sting to you Mr.

Minister, provided considerab le office space that you never had before. It's now paid for and now in use. That hasn't reduced your cost factor in this direction, because that came onstream, what, two years ago? But it hasn't reduced , you're still going up. And this is what concerns me on that figure. MR. DOERN: No comm ent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister spoke about the vacancy rate being three percent or thereabouts, and that most of those vacancies, or the largest portion are in nooks and corners and so on.

I hope he doesn't think that the question I asked him, about ten days ago, which he answered, the vacancy in the Norquay Building was a nook in the corner. MR. DOERN: I think that that particular case was most unfortunate. I can tell you that I was not aware of that vacancy when it was drawn to my attention, and I was quite displeased to learn about it. Since that time we've banged some heads together, and put some heads together' and we have untracked that probl em. That will be assigned to the Department of Labour and that shou ld be ready in a couple of months.

But I think that that was an unfortunate occurrence, somebody dropped the ba ll. There are explanations for it, but in fact it is an unfortunate thing that happened. I guess mistakes are made in this department, with other departments. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to hear that the Minister has taken steps to correct such things happening again in the future. I would point out to him that I have been told that half of one floor in the Fletcher Building was vacant for a period of approximately 8 months.

I'm also told - and one of the reasons I did not ask him this question in the House - the Provincial Government, 1794

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 Department of Public Works, has a lease with McKeag - I better not use the name, but it's a fairly sizab le lease - I was going to say McKeag Realty but I think I could be incorrect, so we better not have the name of the company said. I'm told that there's a fairly sizable lease and that the space is vacant. I can't tell him which building because the person who told me about it' if I told you the bui lding, I think you would find out how I found out the information.

But I'm told that you people in your department have a fairly sizab le comm ercial lease with a private concern in Winnipeg and the space has been vacant for a long time. Do you know anything about the Fletcher Building space? MR. DOE RN: Yes, I do. In the second instance, I' d have to ask the honourable member for details. I just don't know whether he's correct or incorrect. There's just not enough information to comment. In the case of the Fletcher Building, we have been aware of that and I have been aware of that.

There has been some, I suppose, question within the Department of Education on the proper utilization of that facility, and there have been some sugge stions made by us, etc. When there is vacant space in the government that's of a sizab le amount, someone is to blame. It is not always the Department of Public Works. I take little comfort in the fact that it may not be my department, but it may be a colleague's. We're all responsible, so if I'm off the hook and my colleague's on the hook, then I'm still on the hook.

And in that particular instance, I'd say that occasionally there are departments which either are changing their mind or coming up with new programs, etc., etc., or some combination, but it is not necessarily the fault of this department, but it certainly is the fault of the government. MR. STEEN: Perhaps, Mr. Cha irman, in the case of the Fletcher Building it's not the Minister of Public Works' fault at all because the Minister of Education has had different thoughts regarding the 3Rs and perhaps it did vacate some space for them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(d)(2 )-pass; (d)-pa ss. Resolution 100(

e) Employee Housing

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, could he tell us how many employees are listed in the Item (1) there? MR. DOERN: Five. And there's no change from last year. MR. STEEN: I think, Mr. Chairman, we could pass on (1) and ask the questions under (2). MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(e)(1)-pass. (e)

(2) The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, under Other Expenditures. I believe I noted in the Department of Public Works Annual Report an item that said 172 housing units. Can the Minister explain to me the reason for the housing units, where they're located basica lly, and what they're used for? Again, Mr. Chair man, I'm not asking the Minister to read off 172 separate locations. Are they grouped in certain places and are they at cam psites? Because I'm under the impr ession, Mr.

Chair man, that the Hydro have their own housing, Telephones have their own housing, who is this housing accommoda tion for? MR. DOERN: The general question is that they are primarily concentrated in the north. They're throughout the province, but I could just give you an example. There's three at Anama Bay, wherever that is, one at Arbor g , two at Ashern, Asessippi Park, Barrows, Berens River, three at Birds Hill, four at Bissett, one at Boissevain, about a dozen in Brando n, one at Carman, four at Churchill, about eight at Cranberry Portage, etc. MR. STEEN: Any in Winnipeg? MR. DOERN: One in Winnipeg.

At the school for the Deaf. There's two, apparently. MR. STEEN: This housing, is it to accommo date personnel from the Department of Public Works, or in the cases of the north, is it for Northern Affairs employees? MR. DOERN: Primarily Northern Affairs. I think in the total there's two from Public Works, but primarily Mines and Northern Affairs. MR. STEEN: He mentioned two specific ones which are of interest- Boissevain' one home there, and half a dozen or so in Brandon. Is there a shor tage of housing in Brandon? Is that why the government is providing it? MR. DOERN: Those are at the mental hospital. MR.

STEEN: And the one in Boissevain? Is it to do with the Land Titles Office? MR. DOERN: Forest Ranger. MR. STEEN: Forest Ranger. So bas ical ly, the housing is usually attached, for example, as you have said, in Brandon with the hospital, Selkirk with the hospital, and at government institutions that are on the fringe area of a town, and the housing has been there for some years. MR.

DOERN: We do have some new construction; but it's primarily because there is just no housing available in the area, and since we have to provide decent accomm odation - I guess it's been a policy, I suppose for decades in the government. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairm an, years ago the Canada Cement Company, for example, had to provide housing at Fort Whyte in order to attract people to work out there.

Now Fort Whyte is almost part of the City of Winnipeg, so I can understand where the government, from time to time, particula rly in remote areas, has to use housing as a fringe benefit in order to attract competent personnel. Has the 1795

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 numbers of housing units been increasing very much in recent years? MR. DOERN: There's been a total decrease in the last few years and the recomm endation from our department, which is general ly followed, is to divest ourselves of homes in the towns, cities of the province, but we have, nevertheless, had to increase the amount of stock in the north, because we've had an expanded thrust by the government in northern Manitoba. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the 250,600 is, I guess, basical ly, fuel and items to carry on and keep the house functional 12 months of the year?

Is that what the Other Expenditures is? And to do minor repairs, etc.? There's no new structures, moneys to build new structures in that 250,000, is there? MR. DOERN: Repair and materials. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, in certain towns and villages, does the province and the Department of Public Works pay municipal taxes for these homes, and if they do, is that in the 250,000? MR. DOERN: We do in fact pay, I suppose, grants in lieu, but it's done through Municipal Affairs Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask two or three questions.

For instance, in the field of the universities, I understand the universities do provide a residence for the president. Does that come under your department or is that under the University Grants Com mission? MR. DOERN: That's under the Department of Continuing Education. That's, I suppose indirectly under them, directly under the university. MR. GRAHAM: I also understand the Minister to say that his department had no involvement in the Hecia Island? MR. DOERN: Right. MR. GRAHAM: Does that apply to the entire Department of Tourism and Recreation, parks and that? MR.

DOERN: Hecia Island is under Tourism and Recreation. I suppose we were involved in land acquisition though. My Director of Land Acquisition aged considerab ly after that. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't doubt but what the Director of Land Acquisition should age in this province. I understand there's been considerable ... MR. DOERN: A Director, but not this director necessarily. MR. GRAHAM: But that's getting off the subject, Mr. Chairman. It appears that in some of the examples you listed there, I think you listed Asessippi Park as being one of the residences you . MR. DOERN: Yes. MR.

GRAHAM: Is that for the Department of Tourism? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. GRAHAM: So then we find that in some cases your department is involved in the Department of Tourism, in some cases you aren't. MR. DOERN: Remember that we are sort of the landlord for the government and I mentioned that in the case of employee housing, some 170-plus units, we only occupy two. The other 170 are for other departments. MR. GRAHAM: I don't think that's the point that I was trying to get across at all, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to know if it is the policy of this department to provide the accommoda tion, and we are dealing here with emp loyee housing, if the Department of Tourism requests it? MR. DOERN: Do we provide it? MR. GRAHAM: Do you provide it? MR. DOERN: Only if there is no other accom moda tion availab le. MR. GRAHAM: So in essence in som e cases the Department of Tourism provides it itself, and in other places your department provides it for them. MR. DOERN: I suppose when it falls under the category of employee housing, essential ly we provide it.

If there are campground or other facilities like that, it could be done through their department. MR. GRAHAM: Well then in essence, really there is no clear-cut policy in this particular field? MR. DOERN: I think it is clear-cut. If there is a need for a roof, assuming it cannot be satisfactorily leased in the area, the Department of Public Works will see to it that that house is buil t and maintained. I'm talking largely of remote areas, remember, or places where there is a shor tage of accommodation. MR. GRAHAM: The two examples we are using are remote areas and a relative sho rtage of accom modation. MR.

DOERN: Right. MR. GRAHAM: Because I believe in Hecia Island they removed quite a few of the houses. That's all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 1 OO(e)(2)-pass; (e)-pass. Resolution 100(

f) Security Services

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. 1796

Tuesday, April 12 , 19 77 MR. STEEN: Mr. Cha irman, to the Minister, can he give me the breakdown of employees in this particular category, please. MR. DOERN: Forty-five. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, is that any change from last year? MR. DOERN: No change. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman , can the Minister tell me, Security Services, this is the Com- missionaires that we see outside and within the building and so on? MR. DOERN: Those are our own, a lot of them are our own that you are seeing around here. MR. STEEN: So the 45, when he says 45, is that our own? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR.

STEEN: And does the department contract Commissionaires? MR. DOERN: Yes. I could give you a few figures here as an example, from Barnes we have 11 112. MR. STEEN: Is that year-round? MR. DOERN: Yes. Metropolitan we have 16 staff. These are in various locations including some in Brandon. Corps of Com missionaires we have 20 1/2.

So you get them in our larger compl exes, like Barnes is at Fort Osborne, Agricultural Services, 11 81 Portage, Century Street; Metropolitan is at Brandon, at the Archives Building, at West Row and at 1075 Portage; Corps of Com missionaires is at 1181 Portage, traffic - that's around here, I suppose - and Red River Com munity College, they have 12 112. So that's a total of about 48 people. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, of the 45 perm anents, how many wou Id be for the Legislative Grounds and Building itself? MR. DOERN: We' ll dig that out here. MR.

STEEN: I'm concerned about that painting for the Honourab le Member for Swan River for the future, so I would hate to see a ballp oint pen go through his eye. Basically, the buil dings downtown, the Norq uay, the Woodsworth and the Law Courts, Land Titles, etc., the security service is usually in-house people and the buildings away from the downtown core are usually contract security services, is that right? MR. DOERN: That's the basic rule of thumb, right. MR. STEEN: I have no further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(f)(1). The Honour able Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, are there any places where the government uses animals rather than persons for security reasons? MR. DOERN: Our employees are instructed to bite if necessary, but no we don't have any dogs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(f) . The Honour able Member tor Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman , when you're dealing with Security Services, I take it we are not dealing with mechanical security, or is that includ ed as well? MR. DOERN: We do have some mechanical devices like door switches and government switches and so on. I guess Government House has a bur g lar alarm or security system, as an example.

We are also starting to go into these walkie-talkies or radio commu nication devices and we have looked into TV cameras, closed-circuit TV camer as in this buildin g, etc., in the Archives Building. We still don't have that though. That's been under consideration but we haven't moved in that direction yet. MR. GRAHAM: What precautions have been taken to secure the privacy of, say, telephone com munications in various government buildin gs? MR. DOE RN: Well, that's a very tricky hair-raisi ng type of activity and I really don't have an answer for you on that.

That we regard as the responsibility of Telephones, but you know, that whole area, it's really sort of a James Bond type of issue and, you know, you may have a concern - I think a lot of people are concerned that their telephones are being tapped, particularly I suppose, men in public life or in sensitive positions often have that uneasy feeling. I don't know if it's paranoia or a real concern, but I don't really know how one can ever resolve that because there are such sophisticated electronic devices these days. You remember Richar d Nixon talking into flower pots and so on.

But you can easily tap conversations with all sorts of sophisticated electronic gear from outside a building in a car. There are devices, I think you can beam something against a window and pick up a conversation in a room, so as to what kind of assurances we can give to people, I know of none. I suppose that if I were given a request by a Member of the Opposition that he had good reason to believe that his phone was tapped at home or in the building, that we would ask either the police or the RCMP or MTS to check that line. I think I would definitely attempt to accomm odate that particular member.

But other than that, there is just no ultima te safeguard . MR. GRAHAM: Has the Minister had any requests in the past year for that type of service? MR. DOERN: No. MR. GRAHAM: Then can I ask the Minister if he considers it one of his prime responsibili ties to give that assurance to Members of the Legislature, that he is constantly vigilant in that respect? MR. DOE RN: I don't know if that is within my responsibility or power. I regard it as generally being the responsibility of the Manitoba Telephone System, but you know, we are responsib le for the 17 97

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 cleaners and for the general security of the buildi ng. We try to do our best in that regard . MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman , it's always been a fundamental, I think, in our British system of justice that not only must justice be done, it must seem to be done as well and I think that in the field of security we have to make sure that security is preserved and give the appearance of doing everything we can to ensure that security is preserved. I would hope the Minister would give that one of his priorities. MR.

DOERN: Public Works often operates - this seems to be a department where the amount of credit given to the department is rare. When someone gives us credit for something in the form of a letter or a comp liment we undo ubtedly circulate it because it's so rare and refreshing that we are almost dazed as a result. We tend to respond to com plaints; we're used to com plaints. Everybody can complain about something - lighting, heating, noise, maintenance, ashtray emptying, etc.

One measure, I would say, of our success in that regard is in terms of complaints and I have not had , to the best of my knowledge, any comp laint, for ex amp le, from individ ual MLAs or Members of the Opposition saying either that docu ments are missing or papers rifled or attache cases stolen or phones tapped. I do not recal l any instance in the last six years where any member has said to me that he felt that the security was being br eached in terms of papers or conversations. Now, I do recall a case where the Member for Lakeside had his car stolen.

The fact that he left the keys in the car and so on didn't exactly cause any sympathy on my part, but he was almost out a brand new Thunderbird and the Member for Char leswood , he too had his car taken from our grounds, but again, he had the keys in it. We have had a few instances like that. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chair man, I think I can recall, when we are dealing with security, there was, I believe, a comp laint from the Minister himself not too long ago regardi ng assistance that was requested, I believe, from his department.

He seemed to be far from satisfied with the assistance he received at that time and I would like to ask the Minister if that situation has im proved since that time? MR. DOERN: I'm thinking of two or three instances; I wonder if the member could clarify that. I'm thinking about a number of things now. MR. GRAHAM: What I recall, I think, was an intemperate outburst that appeared in the paper, by the Minister. MR. DOERN: I don't recall that instance. MR.

GRAHAM: I'm referring to a case, I believe, where assistance was requested of the City Police and I think there was a question of when the call was put in and the assistance that was given and the time lag. I believe the Minister ... MR. DOERN: That's true, I don't believe that was an intemperate outburst, I think that was a temperate outburst. I do have a concern, I personally have the responsibility for security and you know, I'm simply one member of Cabinet.

I have said to my colleag ues on a number of occasions that I would like more personnel and a tighter security system within the building but they do not share that concern with me. They like the present system of a great easy-going atmosphere in the building and I'm always concerned about the possibility of some maniac or some isolated person getting carried away. Now, we had an instance like that a year or so ago. Room 200, which is one of the finest rooms in this buildi ng, a considerable amount of money was spent aboutten, twelve years ago to putthat room into shape.

I remember a figure of $50,0 00 or something like that to fix it up. Some char acter came into the Premier's office and was sort of turned away and he went on a rampage. Unfortunately that room is locked ordinarily but somehow or the other there were workmen in there and they left the room open; somebody went running in there and within minutes did over $2,000 damage, knocked down a large painting of the King and Queen, I guess it was George V or Edward VII, knocked down two paintings, kicked them in and smashed a whole bunch of things.

That's the sort of thing that I feel concerned about, but my colleagues don't share that concern. They think that those are isolated instances. I would like a tighter system rather than a looser system, but they'd prefer a more casual system . MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman , failing the ability of the Minister to elicit additional forces from member s of his Cabinet, can the Minister ensure us then that he is doing everything in his power to work in a very amicab le way with the Police Force in the city, so that if necessary we can get the prompt and urgent assistance of their very capable forces. MR.

DOE RN: I have had some discussion with the Chief. I have had an exchange of letters and so on, and I think that's been resolved. The last time they responded, I think I sent them a letter commending them. I think we did have some prob lems but I think it's been ironed out. I would like a rapid response. I am concerned about the people who work in this buildin g, people of some public prominence and I think that we should have some priority when there's a problem in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister.

A couple of Friday mornings ago we had better than a hundred supporters of the strikers from the Griffin Steel concern in the Gallery. What precautions does the security service have about some of these persons in that example getting carried away. 1798

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 That's question (a). Question (

b) is, it's my understanding that they went down to see the Premier and the Prem ier was not available and they got into the Cabinet room . Were they invited into the Cabinet room or was the door unlocked and they walked in? And they were demand ing the Premier to come and talk to them. -(I nterjection)- The Memb er from Chur chill says, "That's open government." But, I think you can have controlled open government. I wonder what would happen with a few persons going a bit haywire and that's only an example that I have personally witnessed. MR.

DOERN: Our security staff are not desig ned to fight in the sense they're not arm ed. They don't necessarily know karate. Many of them are Second World War veterans, etc. and they tend to be more of the guide rather than the police type of security person. I think we've been very successful with demonstrators in this building. You know, I think we've been extremely successful. We are very easy with them. We don't try to throw up group s of ;;; rmed , or uniformed people who say, "You're not going to pass here." etc., etc.

I recall one instance about a year or so ago where somebody, maybe it was this char acter who kicked in the paintings, was chased by one of our men who wrestled off his leather jacket and wrestled off his sh irt and this fellow went sprinting away in the middle of winter stripped to the waist. And he was picked up minutes later by the police. He was fairly easy to identify. Blue on top. You know we've had student demo nstrators here on opening day.

We've had the Griffin people, I think the Griffin people essentially - the Prem ier's room, the Cabi net room was prepared for the Press Conference and there was a lot of press, I think, walking around and the door was open and he was going to appear. They just sort of burst in. You know they could burst in here right now very easily. I think we have asked demonstrators every time to leave their placards outside and to show some respect for the build ing and so on and they have in 99 percent of the cases. The Gr iffin strikers in the public galler ies were well-behaved.

There was no rowd iness or shouting or interference with the procedu res of the Legislature so that policy seems to pay off. We've had no ugly scenes or no bad experiences, butthe individual nut who will run into the Chamber or run around in a room slash ing paintings, I don't know how we can guard against that. I would like to try, but I can't fine-tune the system and I can't guar antee it either. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned some mome nts ago about the persons in security contracted from elsewher e and he named off three companies and a total sum of persons.

Are they accounted for under Other Expenditures? Is that primarily what Other Expenditures is? Other items that would fall into Other Expenditures would be uniforms and the walkie-talkies etc., eh? MR. DOERN: Park ing sig nage, etc. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, unless other mem bers of the Comm ittee have any questions on (f)(1) or (2), I'm quite prepared to pass them and move adj ournment. MR. CHAIRN: The Honourable Mem ber for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I have just an observa tion I'd like to make in that we're talking about security services.

I'm one of those that tells people and visitors that this building belongs to them, to each and every Manitoban and I would be the last in the world to deny anybody the right to come in here. But I do feel that the Minister is on the right track and I would ask him to keep on trying because in this day and age with the insecurity of so many things it would be a terrible thing for a beautiful old building like this to be wilfully damaged just through lack of security.

I do notice around, particularly in the circle to the entrance to the Chamber, I've seen people sitting there, scruffy, eating sunflower seeds, and this sort of thing and I'm not complaining at all, it's still their building, but I do feel that people should be moved along . Those kind of people should be quietly moved along. It's no refuge and the observation of people coming into this building can mean a lot.

Just one or two men with top flight security knowledge can spot these people and it wouldn' t hurt at all to have that kind of person on staff who would not only be able to oversee this sort of thing but would in turn probably instruct the staff along the same lines so that anybody that has any motives and itdoesn't take very much to slip something under one's coat and put it in a corner of this building and probably blow the end of it out. So, I would ask the Minister in all sincerity, to keep up the fight because thesecurityof this building is paramount.

Regardless of how the Cabinet feel about it I think they've only got to look at the beauty of it to see to it that it warrants, in the name of the people, that extra money that it takes to give it the protection it rightfully deserves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(f) (1)-pass; (f)(2) -pass; (f)-pass. Resolution 100: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20,301 ,000 for Public Works-pass. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I move that we adjour n. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee rise and report. Comm ittee rise .. 1799

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Tuesday, April 12, 1977 ESTIMA TES -CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Wi l liam Jenkins (Logan): I'd like to draw the attention of the honourable member s to the gal lery where we have 35 member s of the 104th Winnipeg Cub Pack under the direction of Mr. Tweed. This Cub Pack is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Char leswood. On behalf of all honourable members in the Chamber I bid you welcome. I refer honourab le members to Page 15 of their Estimates Book. Resolution 39(a) .

The Honourab le Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I was going to make a few comme nts butthe Member for Fort Rouge, and possibly other members, would want to bring their points now and I could attempt to deal with them later. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I would hate to pass up an invitation like that. There are a couple of specific items, I think, that should be clarified on the operation of the Act itself.

That dur ing the course of the various hearings and exam inations by both the board and by the rent review officers certain problems arose in the

interpretation of the Act that bore upon some of the actual judgme nts about the rent increases to be allowed, and I'd ask the Minister to clarify those as well as perhaps respond to some of the issues that were raised this afternoon. One is, in the Act where the issue was raised about the question of paying interest on moneys that were withheld wh ile actions were pending or where appeals were being made, the Act was a little indefinite in the way it stated that, in fact interest money may be paid upon the sums of money that were withheld on the rent.

I was wondering if the government had examined this particular probl em , or the Rent Review Board, and decided under what circumstances is it possible for the question of interest to be paid on those moneys that would be withheld wh ile the appeal was pending. And I bel ieve that part of it depended upon whether the action was a result of the landlord del iberately withholding funds or his rebates, or whether in fact it was due to the action caused by the process or procedu res of the Rent Review Board. That would be one question, I think, that should be clarified under the terms of the Act itself.

Another question which I think arose during the application of the Act and its procedures had to do with the question that came up in one- I believe it was the basis in one of the court cases - of the application where companies have several bui ldings and are attempting to charge off costs on a joint basis, where they are trying to write off costs and transfer sums from one apartment to another, and I know the decision is against that but I would ask for some clarification. Thirdly, Mr.

Chair man, the Minister, I guess in a debate of about three weeks ago, sugge sted that there was some consideration being given to the problem of allowing pass through cost for buildin gs which have to be refinanced, that many of the mortgages, particularly on older blo cks, are on a five year basis. The mortgages would to be taken out when there was a lower interest rate, the interest rates on many buil dings come due in the five-year period, the interest rate is two or three percentage points.

It obviously adds substantially to the costs incurred by a property owner and again it would be useful to know exactly what discussion or decision is being made in relation to that particular problem of the pass through cost faced by those who are facing mortgages now. I would add to that the question that I raised with the Minister this afternoon concerning the overlap between the timing of the new leases that are coming out and the fact that they will run over the period of a second phase, and what particular recommend ation or advice would be given to tenants concerning the signing of new leases.

And really I guess what in specific terms they are asking is shou ld we be advising tenants who receive such leases to pay only that portion of the rent which accords with the Phase 11 rent increase, and really the opening question is what would they do on a lease that would have increased rents beyond the October 1st period, let's say for the continuation of the full year lease. So that what would happen if, say to give an example, where a lease was given that had more than an eight percent increase for a period beginning in July 1st, 1977, and running to the following year.

Phase II would only cover four months of that. The landlord would obviously, under present conditions, be likely to provide a rent increase not subject to the Rent Control Act, and this is certainly causing a great deal of confusion on the part of many tenants. So I wonder if the Minister could supply answers to those four questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Consumer, Corporate, and Internal Services. MR. TOU PIN: Could the honourable member repeat the last question he had, please. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chai rman, it comes down to the point that we were talking about this afternoon.

That is that the overlap question between new leases that are now being sent out to tenants at the present time and that they only have one month, really, under The Landlord & Tenant Act to indicate whether they are prepared to accept that lease. The lease is presumed to be a binding document and many of them are confused as to what to do. 1800

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I go back to comments made before adjo urnment at 5:30 this afternoon. I was not attempting to curtail discussions pertaining to Phase Ill. I only indicated to members of the House and members of the comm ittee that I was not in a position to attempt to formu late government policy in the House or in comm ittee, that is something that I would be doing with my colleagues in Cabi net.

Certainly I welcome any advice and recommendations from mem bers of the comm ittee pertaining to what they consider to be advisable in regard to Phase Ill , ifthere is to be a Phase Ill decided by Cabinet, by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. I' m not in a position, first of all, to determine, or to indicate what will be contained, what times are involved, or not even to spell out the percentage, because I haven't had a recommendation based on incomplete data that was presented to me.

There is information that has been presented to us, but I figure it's not enough to indicate to us exactly what the amou nt of percentage increase allowed for Phase Il l. To deal with the overlap, or the possible overlap of leases, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is aware that Phase 11 is up to September 30, 1977. I indicated this afternoon that I'm hoping to have a government policy decision arrived at by the latest, May 31st, and such an announcement made by that time, allowing enough time for landlords and tenants to review, if need be, some of the agreements they've entered into, prior to, say, June 1st.

Even if they didn' t, as the honourable member is aware, when we announced Phase I of Rent Controls, what had been decided by The Act and regulations became law' and had to be respected by both parties concerned. So that would be the same case in regard to Phase 111. I'm hoping, by May 31 st, that this will give enough lead time to the two parties concerned to arrive at a type of agreement reflecting the regulation to be considered by, and passed by Cabinet.

So that the question that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge was posing of me, in regard to the direction that landlords and tenants should make now, I believe is to respect Phase II , as it was presented to them . In regards to a possible Phase Ill , we'll have to wait until that decision is arrived at. En Fran9ais, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge, or any other member here, who have had the opportunity to study other plans in other provinces or other countries of the world, to indicate to he what they would prefer pertaining to an a!teinative to just a plain old Phase Ill with certain provisions of a maximum percentage increase, if any. I've studied a few plans, but I certainly would have missed some in different parts of the world, or possibly even in other provinces in Canada. So if there is any advice in that vein, it would certainly be appreciated.

In regard to Lim ited Dividend Housing, well, again, it's a question of not wanting to duplicate what is being done by another level of the Crown. If the Federal Government wasn't involved through CMHC, it's certainly something that I believe we'd find a responsibil ity in regulating ourselves. But since it is being regulated by them, I am not in a position to indicate that their regulations are not meeting the content of tenants and/or landlords.

But if there is a lack of justice on the part of that agency in dealing with rent controls, I sugge st to those involved that they launch their complaint with the Federal Government because that is really not part of our responsibility. We haven't taken that as part of our responsibil ity because we just didn't want to duplicate. It's as simple as that. We can only presume in regard to the responsibil ity of that level of the Crown that they are controlling and limiting dividends so it is a subject matter that could be discussed with CMHC.

In regard to the interest factor on orders involved when landlords deliberately withhold funds, when the agency is responsible for lateness of rebate, we do not order interest. Each block must be dealt with on its own merits and costs. Blocks cannot be dealt with together even if they have the same land lord. So it is two separate applications as I understand the note here in regard to an order of the agency and/or an appeal to the board.

If that doesn't clarify the interest factor that the Honourable Member tor Fort Rouge was talking about, I would invite him to clarify his point so we can deal with it- and equally in regard to several buildings being owned by a given landlord, if I took the inference as meaning a possible cross subsidy between homes and/or blocks.

In regard to the cost pass-through, there will be a regulation passed pertaining to cost pass through of existing mortgages that have to be refinanced, not at the will of the landlord, but fall ing due and having to be refinanced at a higher rate of interest, the difference, say as an example, between nine and fourteen percent if that is the case, or nine and twelve percent if that is the prevailing rate. The difference of three percent in that case would be allowed to be a pass-through.

For that the Act does not have to be amended but a regulation has to be passed and that is the intent, to pass a regulation authorizing that cost pass-through where it is not at the discretion of the landlord but an ob ligation that he refinance because his five years is up and he has to refinance the loan. We will not allow the cost pas.s-through on an excess of the amount that was orig inally financed at, say again, nine percent. If there is an additional amou nt, that additional amount will not be allowed as a cost pass-through. It will be for the same amo unt or less. I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that that deals with the points raised by the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. · 1801

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chair man, I thank the Minister for those answers. It still requires, I think, some explanation and I would ask him to bear with me just to make sure I get clarification.

Going back to the issue of the leases at the present time, I understand from the Minister then that the advice that would be offered to tenants would be to sign the new leases thatare being issued, and then if and when Phase Ill is established' by May 31st, then it would be retroactive and that would be made clear so that the -{I nterjection)- Well, the point I am trying to make now is that many leases are now falling due. Because of the three month requirement of advance notice by the landlord, many tenants now have new leases in hand.

Those new leases, the ones that I have seen, in fact include cost escalations that far exceed the eight percent of the Phase 11 period . Now it means that because a lease would fall due on July 1st or Jun e 30th really, the leases let's say that are being delivered or have been delivered as of April to give the three months' notification have really two components to them. One is the component from June to October which still comes under the Phase II Rent Control Progr am .

The second com ponent is from October to the following June where there is no indication at the present time as to what limits there would be on the actual rent increases. Now what bas to be established , I think quite firmly, so that we can give the right advice when people ask is: Should tenants sign those leases even though they include rent increases that are far in excess of the eight percent of the Phase II for that period, let's say from October 1st, 1977, to June 30th, 1978, that eight-month period which is not presently covered under any statute or any regulation or any Order-in-Council.

What I think we want to make sure is that if a tenant does sign that lease, then they would receive again a rebate for a period if there is a new percentage - six percent, eight percent, whatever it may be - for that eight months which we presently have no information about. I think that that is the kind of question I would really want to have clarified because it is a question of concern to many tenants at the present time and I think that many of them really don't know whether they should be signing the lease or not or whether they should simply wait until May 31st to hear.

But if they do that, some of them are in danger of contravening The Landlord and Tenant Act where the landlord can honestly say that you have got to return my lease to me within a month after receipt of it, after the three-month notice. So I think again that I would ask the Minister to be a little bit more precise in establishing exactly what step tenants shou ld take if they receive leases of that particular kind. I think that that is necessary to get that particular question established.

On the issue of the cost pass-throughs for existing mortgages, the question I would ask the Minister is: Will this new regulation that he is recom mending to be issued, will that be retroactive to include buildings that have already been adjusted under the present last two periods, or will it be a law simply saying that from a certain date, May 31 st, 1977, any refinancing will now be allowed?

Now again that is a degr ee of arbitrariness as to what date you pick because obvio usly ma ny landlords - I think one of the court cases that is presently pending, I think will come up for hearing on Thu rsday morning if I am not mistaken, is based primarily upon that issue. A landlord is contending that he has had to refinance several hundred units of rental property under existing mortgages and I think that again it would be useful to know exactly what is being contemplated.

Is it going to be one that will simply be applicable in the future, or will it be applicable to rent appeals that have already been established under the Ph ase I and Phase II programs of the Rent Stabilization Act? So I think again that we should have a clear definition of exactly what is intended in that respect. Mr. Chair man, I also would suggest to the Minister that the potential programs and advice that he is looking for concerning what should be done, in

part I would refer him to a Thr one Speech reply that I gave on February 17th or 18th where our caucus put forward a series of recommendations to the government at that time, two months ago, as to what might be done and based upon examination of the different models that are being used in the Canadian context, Quebec, B.

C. one as compared to our own and others, and sug gested that the two options are either to follow the rent review scheme which is operative in the Province of Quebec wher ein the onus is put on the tenant to initiate an appeal against any rent increase that they think is excessive and the landlord or property owner would therefore have to justify that particular rent increase based upon the costs that they have incurred. I would sugg est, Mr. Chairm an, that that is a position that again our own caucus had advocated since 1974 when a rent review scheme at that time had been introd uced .

But that is, as they say, water under the bridge. The other option would be to come closer to the British Columbia model as recommended in a very extensive study that they did through their Rent Review Board that was completed last spring, where they put forward a series of formu las that cou Id be used to calculate the different components of cost, not only the basic maintenance servicing cost, but also to take into account certain interest changes and certain equity charges that would be made, and that there would be a form ula applied.

Now; the trade-off between those two mou lds is that one requires a heavier degr ee of administrative intervention than the other. The Quebec system really requires, first, a high degr ee of information being given to tenants so they know whattheir rights are, and a fairly elabo rate administrative system to keep the thing operative. I believe that's been a problem in Quebec. The other system in British Columbia - it's uncertain about its imp lementation because of the 1802

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 changeover in government - seemed to come closer to establ ishing a fairly adequate series of formulas that could be used .

What I would really be sug gesting probably given the choice, thatthere be a Phase Ill established, set on a certain percentage rate, allow ing for pass through costs based upon that kind of form ula, with the intention that it would eventually transfer into a rent review procedure that would become, in part, a permanent fixture of the rental market, because I think that the private rental mar ket has so altered itself that they're going to need that continuing protection. - (I nterjection)- I think in this case, the thermostat to adjust - I apologize, Mr.

Chairman, for answering a question the Minister posed from his seat - but would really be dependent upon the conditions in the housing market itself. You're going to, as onerous as it may appear, have to maintain that formula control until such a time as we are able to add to the supply of rental apartments, so that we can get enough starts in the rental mar ket so that there is a vacancy rate around five percent. I think that would be thetrigger that would activate the end of that particular kind of scheme, and I would sugge st that would be the particular formula that migh t be looked at.

There would a time period for Ph ase Ill contingent upon the introduction of some housing programs and I hope we will have the opportunity to talk to the Minister of Housing about the kinds of things that could be done, both to improve the availab ility of existing apartments - the Minister has heard me speak previously in the House - the fact that a number of older apartments are being taken out of the market, that we are losing several hundred units a year from the existing housing ma rket and that the introduction of serious stimulants into the private rental ma rket to bring the supply up would then, once it has reached the stage where we can be fairly sure that there is an adequate vacancy rate and that the market system will apply, would then be the trigger upon whic h the government could then decide to move in to a more lim ited rent review procedure.

I believe, Mr. Chair man, that would be the kind of approach that would be acceptable to people on the property owning side, because if you look at the statements made by many bui lders as they appeared before the comm ittee last spring, they indicated that they were prepared to provide for an acceptable rent review procedure, in fact they would welcome one.

I think any statement or position taken by the government in relation to rent review or a continuation of the program into Phase Il l , then into a rent review, must be couched in more comprehensive terms of also the kind of stimulants that they would be add ing in the rental apartment market, to bring the supply up. And I would hope that when the announcement is made on May 31s t, it is not simply one that is restricted only to the specific question of rent stabilization or rent restraint, but also couched in terms of a broader program to provide for rental housing.

I think an additional component to that, which sugge sts negotiations should beg in now with Central Mortgage and Housing is to work out ways in whic h the rent supplements may be availab le to certain tenants who can't afford any rent increases in that transition period . Many tenants are simply at a stage where they are spending high percentages of their income for rental housing.

The only answer - I think probably a more afforda ble answer than trying to increasingly build more and more public housing units - is to move into a rent supplement scheme so that that would provide a certain easing or transition for tenants in these areas. My colleag ue informs me, and I have to take his word , that there is a more extensive rent supplement program available in British Columbia. I know the only way in which rent supplements are presently available in Manitoba is if it's available for non-profit housing. I would sugge st, Mr.

Chairman, and I've said this before, if the government was to offer some incentives to builders in the rental market, that one of the conditions of that would be that a certain number of units in each of those projects, say 25 percent, would be available for lower, moder ate income tenants. That would be one of the conditions of accepting that kind of advantage that may be offered you through a tax system or grant system or whatever form ula they may apply.

I would again predict that that would ensure there was an adequate supply, not only for tenants who can fend for themselves, but also those whose own incomes are not keeping up with the inflationary rate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, in regard to leases signed before October 1, 1977, those leases would have to be in accordance with provisions contained within an announced Phase Ill, meaning that if need be, all those leases signed say, before October 1, 1977, tenants and landlords would have to take cognizance of a possible Ill Phase after the 1st of October.

In regard to the new regulation of cost pass through, I bel ieve that I've explained that thoroughly enough.

It would not be the intent to make that regulation retroactive, but if there was a hardship proven to have taken place in regard to assessment previously arrived at by the Rent Review Board itself - in some cases I happen to know that they've allowed , under the hardship clause, for cost pass through of such expenses - and that could be considered under that clause, without having the amendment that would become in force October 1, 1977. ltwould not be the intent to go back over the two phases and make that cost pass through applicable, but to use the hard ship clause. 1803

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 I've looked at the Quebec controls, and I fail to recognize how their controls deal with unreported gougers, and that seems to be a problem in some cases, depending I guess on the relationship between landlord and tenant. If a tenant doesn't report, by fear of being taken action upon by the landlord or a third person, in my understanding of their control, this would not deal with it, because if there's one report being sub mitted, they deal with that one report. They don't take the whole block in question.

So I think we' ll have to look at that when we talk about options, either tor the third phase or following the third phase. What are the criteria to be used? That's one question that we had to address ourselves to. What will be the formu la? Will it be exactly the sam e, say, as they use in Montreal, or will it be somewha t different? What action for regress is proposed within the formula that will be contained?

At this time, I don't see answers to these questions in the rent control procedure in the province of Quebec that I see being applied mainly in Montreal, and has been over the last thirty years, I am told. And what is the real difference between a meaningfu l rent review and a meaningful rent control, it we're talking of two procedu res that are meant to be sincere and wanting to deal with problems? I indicated that landlords and tenants should be signing leases. Right now, if they fall due, increases will be allowed for a 12 month period.

They are only allowed one increase per 12 month period, under Phase I or Phase II . And it's the same now, they have to operate under the conditions of Phase II up to the 1 st of October 1977. So if they sign leases now, conditions that are to be considered in Phase 111 will have to be made applicable, so I wouldn't hold back on the sig ning of leases. As I understand the comment from the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge' Mr. Chairman, pertaining to following suit on Phase Ill, Ill , he would not put a time frame on Phase but make it conditional on achieving, say a five percent vacancy rate.

I happen to appreciate that in the sense that I've always indicated that we, as being one of the three partners' have a responsibility in seeing that the housing stock reaches a certain level. But we are only one of the three partners. There's at least two others that I see having responsibility of supplying people with housing needs. I say three, the private, the public, and the co-operative sectors. So in that sense, in my other responsibility as Minister for Co-operative Development, I do intend to have an input in regard to the co-operative sector.

We are meeting, and here I'm talking about the Minister of Industry and Comm erce and myself, with the private sector. If I have my way in regard to incentives, the incentives will not be given to groups and companies, they will be offered to individ uals. I see that as being more meaningful than talking about incentives to say, companies, and it's possib le that individuals themselves will provide, directly or indirectly, through a subcontract, whatever needs they have.

And I see a double component here, one of upgrading existing stock of housing which I feel is very impor tant, mainly in the city of Winnipeg; secondly, new housing stock, and mainly again in the city of Winnipeg, by means of the three sectors. Yes, I do accept the comments and recommendations of the Member for Fort Rouge that, being one of the three partners, we have a responsibility to work very closely with others in providing funds, apart from what is now being provided through the Federal Government in regard to the housing needs. I see that- and I've always said , Mr.

Chairm an, that that is the alternative to rent control. Rent control is not the long range solution to the problem that we have in housing. I think the stock of housing is controlled by means of the marketplace. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, taking in this Minister's comments, I expectthat'saboutas far as we're going to be ab le to discern from him what the future intentions of the government will be, but I believe it's also important to find out from him what is intended in terms of the actual at agency itself.

Looking at the estimates of the board, everyone recognizes that when the legislation came in a year ago, there was a requirement for some very hasty operations and I think that my colleague, the Member for Assiniboia indicated this afternoon, that one has to provide some commenda tion for the way in which a very difficult task was accom modated, by and large, quite efficiently, and I certainly believe that the survey I did in my own riding indicated that most people felt that as much as could be done was done, but there were still problems in the operation of the boar d and agency review officers.

Obviously, if we're going to continue into a Phase Ill program and get something out of it, we need something more than a secondment of officers from other departments. We need to discern whether the operation of the agency as it's presently established - there was a major turnover in staff of the agency half way through. Many of the rent review officers which I first saw, I didn't see again.

I don't know if they got bu rned out or went for R and R somewhere, perhaps to B.C. or something, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of them just simply disappeared, and it would seem to me thatonething we should know, is what the intention of the government is in terms of continuing this agency. Do they intend to provide more permanent staff for it? Is the board com position going to stay the same? Will there be additional members br ough t in, perhaps, broadening the range of interest on the board?

One of the other issues which I would simply raise as a question, is whether examinations should be given to incorporating the Rent Review Agency with the Rentalsman office. Certainly during the 1804

Tuesday, April 12, 1977 coun�e of the last year, being involved in a number of these matters, there is a fair deg ree of confusion and I would expect dupl ication in referrals and information between the two offices of supply, that people sometimes didn't know the difference between the Rentalsman office and the Rent Review office. They both have the same name, they're within three blo cks of one another in terms of their offices. I'm wondering if there is any intention to provide for a more permanent component in staff of the agency. If that is the case, will there be some training going on with that staff?

In many cases, I felt that·officers themselves, as dil igent as they were, were sometimes about as confused as anyone else as to what the meaning of the legislation was and wha t the exact impact would be. Is there any intention now to provide for that kind of recruitment of people, because if you're looking at a May 31st date for an extended phase, then we're talking about six weeks, when all of a sudden the procedures will be starting all over again.

The particular question of how many, what sort of training would be required , and particularly on the question of the boar d itself, the citizen board and the composition of it, should be examined in terms of the range of interests that are brought to bear. I think also of the issue of whether there couldn't be a degree of integration between the Rentalsman Office, which I know is busy enough, but also has a fair number of people who have been trained in the rent area, so that there would be at least a core component of staff available for supplying people to operate this particular agency.

I think we should have some indication of what the intention is as far as the administrative organizational makeup of the board will be and what the government intends to do in terms of maintaining the Rent Stabil ization Board and the officers that have been presently assigned to their tasks. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON: Mr. Chair man, I have missed some of the discussion on the matter of the Rent Review Board , so if I'm repeating wha t some other members have contributed, or if I' m repeating questions, I apologize to the Minister.

I'd like to make a number of points. I am one of those who, when we passed The Rent Review Act, stated that I basically wasn't in favour of rent control as a principle. I agree with the Minister basic ally, philosoph ically, thatthemajor thrust in solving housing problems, particularly for low income people, has to produce an increase in the housing stock. But right now, we're not producing that increase in housing stock.

The Member for Fort Rouge has mentioned a study by the Planning Secretariat which indicates that there have been something between 1,500 and 2,000 demolitions in the inner city area over the past year or so. A lot of these demol itions are due to fires and also due to buildings that have sim ply passed beyond the usable state. Regardless, the fact is that the stock of housing for low income people has decreased very substantially over the last while and this has prod uced an additional pressure, especially on low income people in the inner city.

Now, given this situation, I think that we, as a government, would be irresponsible not to continue the rent control program' and I certainly, as a member of the government, am in favour of a continuation of the rent control program until there is a substantial increase in housing stock. I can't spell out the percentage right now but certainly until there is a ve

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-37b
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Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 37b.pdf
Language	en
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