:i - Volume XL Friday ~---~~---~·- '"''&'5LIIIlT/·,_ 1·'\,; t. .... ,, ~· ~ r '· ~ ;;;i ~f?"fl>'~OV.:..1-. .;. ~ i9 ~~ ,L I !!J ~- A~ .-? '· 1~~:..-;:::.:·:-~:"':"':':..., Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM -REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 5 18 March 1988

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: Before calling for statements by ministers I want to refer to a point of order raisE!d by the han. the President of the Council yesterday. It was in connection with our procedure here and, of course, thE! point was in order. I found more problem in dealing with the petition, and I studied that at length last night and again this morning. Going back many years, we have had great problems with petitions.

I think probably the best way of dealing with it is to have our Standing Orders changed in some way that it would b~ much more specific. Referring to t:hi s particular petition yesterday, I am not going to rule on it now because I want to study it further over the weekend, and I want to be quite sure in my mind that everything is perfectly in order.

It seems to me there ·was a copy of a petition submitted with over a thousand names on it, and there was a petition submitted with three namt::~s on it, and that particular copy concerns me very much because that refers to a petition submitted by over a thousand people. I do not t.~.Jant to rule at this stage whether it. should or s h o u 1 d not be a c c e p l: e d , I want to study our precedents, going back as far as is necessary, and Beauchesne and other authorities. It concerns me that of these three signatures, two signatures were actually o·f members of this han. House.

Members are perfectly entitled to petition the House. If we want to be very technical, thE!Y should gE!t another rne!Tnber to L210 March 18, 1988 Vol XL present that petition for them. But, I do not think that is the important matter in this particular case and I will certainly have a ruling on the matter on Monday. 0 0 0 MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: With the leave of the House, before we hE!ar Statements frorn Ministers, I rise to ask the House to recognize the appointment of Dr. Angus Bruneau as Chairman of the National Marine Council. D1n.

Bruneau, as all members will realize, is a distinguished Newfoundlander who came to this province many years ago and has worked here ever since. He is recognized for his major achievement in establishing t:he School of Engineering at the University and for developing it and leading a team that dE!VeJ.opE!d it to the point where it is one of two or three well recognized schools of engineering in Canada whose graduates are sought after by people, by firms and businessE!S, seeking E!ng:i.neE!l~s, and that in itself is a remarkable achievement. I know Dr.

BlnunE!aU personally, and I know of his capabilities and his qualities, as I arn sure many members of this House do. I had the pleasure as Chairman of Newfoundland Light and Power of SE!eking his services to accept thE! post of President and Chief Executive Officer of that No. 5 R210

company. I am happy to say that he did so, and has performed very well. I think in this appointment Canada acquires the services of a distinguished citizen and Newfoundland basks in reflected glory. While I am on my feE!t, Mr. Speaker, I would also ask this House to rE!Cognize the passing of another distinguished Newfoundlander who has had significant involvement in the electrical field, and who provided significant public service to this province. MR. WINDSOR: We are doing that later. MR. WELLS: In which case I will wait until the minister does it. Thank you. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMI~R PECKFORD: Just let me, on behalf of this side of the House, associate myself with the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. WelJ.

s) as it relates to the appointment of Dr. Bruneau to this prestigious organization for Canada. As the leader of the Opposition said, Dr. Bruneau has contributed to the life of this province in an extremely significant way over many years. And like thE! Leader of the Opposition, I have had occasion to know Dr. Bruneau and also to deal with him since he took over his new position hE!re in Newfoundland and before that, when he was with the llniversi ty. I guess what Dr.

Bruneau has bE!en doing and is doing is somE!thing along the J.ines L211 March 18, 1988 Vol XL that in concert and parallels a lot of the things that governmE!nt has beE!n doing as it relatE!S to technology in this province, not only in the enginE!er:i.ng school itself but in his assistance in the establishment of C-Core, and whose energy and drive and insiitence on the establishment of other like agencies in the province to put us on the lE!ading edge of technology has been one of the greatest achievements of Dr. Bruneau.

He will continue to do that, no doubt, not only on the provincial scene but on the national scene. I congratulate Dr. Bruneau. Undoubtedly his appointment is not only good for him pE!rsonalJ.y but it is, as l:he LeadE!r of -l:he Opposition said, good for Newfoundland and shows us ~gain to be in the forefront person-wise as well as technology-wise in Canc1da and around the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member For· Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: If I may, just ever so briefly, it has come to our attention that the gentleman from St.

John's South, the Minister of Health (Dr. ColLins), has be101n recogntzed for his services. He, together with about another thirty-nine or forty other Newfoundlanders, in thE! last few days have been singled out for their services on th~~ Murrnansk Run, part of the convoys that WE!n'l: on the Murrnans k Run nE~ar thE! U.S.S.R. during the Second World War. He has recently received a No. 5 I~ 211

,j commemorative medal from the U.S.S.R. Now, if I were less charitable, we could have all kinds of fun with that, but I rise in all sincerity to say on behalf of my colleagues ta him personally and, through him to the thirty-nine or forty other people throughout the Province who have been so honoured by the receipt of these medals, hearty congratulations from us. We salutE! you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the versatility of the Cabinet of this government never ceases to amaze me. It lAJas a secret.

I did not know anything about it . And no doubt he wo u 1 d not go around boasting about it, knowing the calibre of person the minister is. Congratulations, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a very brief word. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. thE! Minister of Health . DR. COLLINS: It was somE!thing that I was gJ.ad to receive, as were the others. We received the commemorative medal for our own satisfaction, I guess, but also, we received it on behalf of the many, many Newfoundlanders who played a much greater

part in that unfortunate conflict than I did, certainly. 1..212 March 18, 1988 Vol XL And there were many, many more who played their part and did not receive a medal. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h~::~ar! MR. LONG: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The ·han . l:he member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Mr.

SpeakE!r, just to add a quick note of congratulations, For our party, as well, and also to make• mention that it was not only a specia1 medal for the mE!rnber, the minister, a senior member oF Lhe governrnE!nt, the Deputy PrE !rnier of the Province, I think it is also a reminder, in times of international tension, thai: it l.I.Jas only forty YE!ars ago wllE!n we were allies with the Soviet un ·ion, and today, it is woJ~t.h.whilE!, E!Spec:ially for young people, to be reminded of the history of struggle that happened at that t.irne, and 'it helps remind us oF whe•re we have• come from and where we are today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS : I-IE!ar, hear I MR . SPEAKER: Order, ple!ase! Before calling for Statements by Ministers, I would like to welcome to the gal1E!ry a Grade III cJass from St . Peter 1 s Elementary, Mount Pearl, with their tE!achers, Mr. Pellerin, Mrs. Hepditch --Var ·dy, and Mr·s . Kelsey. I would also like to welcome sixty Level II students from Mount Pearl Senior High with their teachers, No. S I~ 212

Mr. Calvin Button and Miss Susan Shapleigh. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome students from the Avalon .Community College with their teacher, Cherry Dalley. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: The member for St . John's East never ceases to amaze me. I hope he does not want us to match the economic performances of the Russian E!Conomy OVE!r the last forty years. We would have an unemployment rate of about 98 per cent.

I hope he has not aligned himself with the economic policies or other political policies of that Nation. Holy Moses! It is really something! I should give the han. member a chance to respond , I g u e s s , in de rna c rat i c fashion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: I thank thE! Premier for the opportunity to respond. I would just point out that I think we have lessons to learn from the Soviet Union as WE! do many other countries in the world.

I think the message of congratulations to L213 March 18, 1988 Vol XL the minister today is a good reminder of the importance of understanding our history in order, to use the Premier's words, to learn from the past to understand the present, which is a paraphrase of a book by thE! same name, I think, by the Premier. That was simply the point that was being made earlier . . PREMIER PECKFORD: Do you want to go ahead now <::~nd congratulate me on my book and how well it has done? It is Friday, Mr. Speaker, and away we go! Mr. Speaker, the statement I am about to give I can give again in two or three ways.

I am stilJ. not sure which way I am going to give it . I would like to respond to a point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. I could do it under a point of privile!ge, or a point of o.r de r or w h. ate v e r , b u t i t i s information and I cannot table it. under reports and so. It lAJas not a question but a point made by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, and it. is fun damE! nt .aJ. J.y very important if we are going l:o operate this House for the next three or four months in a way which will not lead this to happen again.

I would like to respond to a point raised by the Leader of the Opposition with rec.:Jard l:o l:.he Sprung complex and the so-called assessed value in Calgary. Th is is extremely important. Every man and his dog around is having a field day with thiS project 1 and with me as a result. Truth and facts I think are important. In 1986 the Sprung Company applied for a building permit to erect their complex in thE• city of Calgary. They estimated the value of the non-rnovablE:1 assets at $3 .6 No. S R213

million. They, the Sprung Group of Companies. MR. SIMMS: Non-movable? PREMIER PECKFORD: Non-movable. This amount covered roadwork, basements, pad, water and sewer and some other earth works. It did not cover the value of work done by the city of Calgary in preparing the si tel and removing amounts of petroleum products. Neither did it include the value of the structures themselves or anything in the structures.

In 1987, after the complex was completed and operational, the assessed value, contrary to it bedng $3 miJ.lion from the LeadE!r of the Opposition yesterday, the assessed valUE! of the complex was $4.3 million. This valUE! include!d the it.E!rriS mentioned earlier, just the water and sewer, the road and the basement, but does not include any of the physical assets above ground or any of the movable facilities. In effect, the assessment did not include the value of the structures, the computers, the pumps, thE! growing system or thE! grolAJing lights.

Now, that is the facts of the matter, and it just so happens i:hat even on that thE! cost of concrete here in Newfoundland for t:his facility, just for thE! basE!ment, was three times what it was in Calgary - the cost of thE! concrE!tEl just on that. Because, under the laws of Alberta, or Calgary, or whatever, the structures and all of the contElnts of the building arE! not. taxable and therefore they were not assessed. All that was L214- March 18, 1988 Vol XL assessed was water and SE!IA.IE!r, thE! road and the basement, and the assessed value was $4.3 million.

Now, this is the information and I would just caution the Leader of the Opposition and members opposite. I do not mind if thE!Y are opposed to l:his project, fine, it is a delmocratic country, but I do and would appreciate when information is being given in this House, which is then c~rried by the media, which then lends greater negativity erroneously to the project, that they at least check out the information first, because it is extrE!mE!ly important in my view for the proper information to be put forth to the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hElar! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of l: hE! Opposition. MR. WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. SpE!aker, I w:ilJ. tell thr:~ House in detail exactly where that information came from and exactly what it was. I spol<e to one Mr. Kennedy, the Deputy Assessor for the Cil:y of Calgary, t:he rnan who knows exactly what it was and what lAJas done. Mr. Kennedy advised 1ne in very clear terms that their method of operating is t:o base l:he assessment on the repJ.acement cost. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WELLS : If I can be heard . MR. SPEAKER: No. 5 1~214-

Order, please! MR. WELLS: The learned gentlemen will understand something if they will listen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh I oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the han . members if the Leader of the Opposition could be heard in silence. MR. WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The simple fact is, Mr. Speaker, Calgary bases its taxes on the replacement cost. Those figures, as I indicated to the House yesterday, were the 1985 replacement cost of the physical structures, basements and physical structures. The gentlemen opposite can make their judgement after they hear.

If they are going to prejudge everything, thE!Y wiJ.l remain as ignorant always as they are now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ohl oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh I oh! MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker, remain quiE!t something. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. WELLS: if they thE!Y would will only hear Mr. Speaker, the simple fact is Calgary bases its tax on L215 March 18, 1988 Vol XL replacement cost. Replacement cost takes no account of whether the ground is an old oily patch or a perfectly clean green meadow.

The replacement costs are thE! replacement costs , and the replacement cost of that total structure, and the asSE!SSors advise that it specifically included the forced air· furnaces, as WE!ll, but did not includE! any hydroponic equipment, as I indicated to the House yesterday. . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER : No, you did not. MR. WELLS: I most certainly did . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. WELLS: Hansard will record that I advised the House it did not includE! any of the hydroponic equipment. Hansard wj 11 record that , M 1~ . Speaker.

The appraised cost on the basis of replacement cost :In 1985 was $3 .428 million. And I remind the hon. the Premier and other members of this House thal: the $14.5 rnilJ.ion does not include the lights h(~re, either. rhe lights are to be J.eased in addition, so tha l: oi. s not a factor. What we ar(:• cornpat'ing is a cost of $3.6 mi1lion in Calgary plus whatever the hydroponic element cost. PREMIER PECKFORD : $3.6 mil1ion was thE! cost put: on it in the building perm it, not the assessed value. The assessed value was $4.3 million. MR. WELLS: $3.428 million, Mr. Speaker, was No. 5 R21.5

• the appraised value in Calgary based on replacement cost, in 1985 dollars. PREMIER PECKFORD : In 1 9 8 7 it was million. MR. WELLS : $4 . something I am prepared to accept that in 1987 it was 4. something . but - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker. if the gentlemen ~~Jill just remain quite. AN HON. MEMBER : His time is up, Mr. Speaker . MR. DINN: Give him three months and his time will be up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ~ear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some silence while I respond to the matter raised by I: he han. the PrE!mier.

I have not had any time to do so yet . MR. SPEAKER : Order please! The Premier had the han. mE!mber three minutes, and I did not loa k actually spoken His timE! has at the clock - has for five minutes. elapsed. MR. WELLS : Mr . Speaker, now I can giVE! it to the press or I can give it to the House. I wiJ.l go out and give it t: o the pres s if they do not want L216 March 18, 1988 VoJ. XL to hear it . MR . SPEAKER : Order please! The han . member 1 s tjme has elapsed. He can speak by leave of the House . SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave . SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No leave. MR.

WELLS : Well, if proceed. leave is given I will Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . the it . Speaker, . the simple MinistE!r of FinanCE! He was overruJ.ed. MR. SPEAKER : fact is indicated Order please! Order please! I understand leave ha s no t be en given. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr . SpeakE!r, I have been trying over the last couple of days to get in a few questions on the Sprung Project but we just do not have enough time to be able to get around to it . 'I have to support part of what the Premier said.

Back in June of last year when we were investigating the project, we called the Sprung Company that manufactures the structures, the Instant Structure Company. and we asked them how much it would cost: for an eight acre project, how No. 5 R21.6

much it would be. The price they gave us was somewhere in the range of about $550,000 to $600,000 per acre; on eight acres you are talking about $4.5 million. So, if that is what they are selling, the structure, and, of course, that would not include the f au nda tions, it would not inc 1 ude the hydroponic stuff and so on, I would suggest quite frankly that the assessed value and the actuaJ. value may be somewhat different. But that is only by way _ of introduction, be!cause I would like to pose a few questions on the project, if the Premier does not rn-.ind.

The questions concern this, and this is responding to the cost of the project: If :it :is a $4.5 million structure to buy, would the Premier give us some details J.ater on on exactly how much the joint venture has paid for the used equipment being bought from Calgary. Because it is the same str.ucture that .was dismantled and so on and so forth. As the Pre!rnie!r knows, the fabric that the Sprung people manufacture is only guaranteE:~d for five years. Since it has been about two years in Calgary, that means it has only got about three years useful life expectancy under their warranty.

I L.IJant to kno1JJ, in terms of information that may come later, what kind of a discount we got because we bought this used structure. The other part of it is: Is it possible to find out how much of the money that Wli:~nt into the original project in Calgary came through the scientif-ic tax credit of the federal government which E!Ssentially alloiJJed many compan-ies to write off virtually millions and millions of dollars of investme!nt that thoy made, written off against other projects.

It is L217 March 18, 19 8 8 Uol XL our informat-ion that v-irtually none of the Sprung money went into the original project -.in Calgary either. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would this opportunity to students from Mount High. MR. SPEAKER: lil<e to take wel COlnE! thE• Pt~drl Central I had recognized l:he han. thE! Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I would 1-.ike to br·ing to the attention of this han.

House an item of stgntftcance that may wel1 be looked upon by future generations of CanadoiiHlS as an historic miJ.estone along this country's path towards a quality of life characterized by sustainable and environmentally sound economic development. I refer to the Report of the National Task Fore€~ on EnvironlnE!nt and Economy which I tabJ.e here today. Mr. Speaker, this a concise and highJ.y readable document comprising onJ.y eighteen pages in t.hE! EngJ.isli tE!Xt, so I earnestly commend it to all MHAs.

The Canadian Council of Resource and Environment Ministers (CCREM) established the National Task Force on Environment and Economy in October of 1986 to promote a dialogue on environment-economy integration. The Task Force d1new No. 5 R217

u~on the experience and expertise of a wide variety of people ... Canada's Environment Ministers, business leaders, representatives from environmental organizations, and the academic community. Indeed, this is the first time that such a diverse group of Canadians has come together to consider ways to promote environmentally sound economic growth. This event c on s t i t u tc:~ s a follow u p i n i t i at i v e to the 1984 Bruntland World Commission on Environment and Development.

The World Commission Report was completed in 1987 and it advocates major institutional reforms and promotes sustainable development, throughout all countries. The (Canadian) Report of thE! National Task Force on Environment and Economy was endorsE!d by CCREM ministers in October, 1987 and by First Ministers at thE!ir November Conference. The Report's main objective is to promote environmentally sound economic growth through private and public sector co-operation and the document contains ideas and recommendations for bringing Canada's E!nvironmE•nt and continued economic development into harmony .

In so doing, it highlights the fundamental belief that environmental and economic planning cannot proceed in separate spheres and indeed are interdependent in that environmentally sound and sustainable economic development rE!quires the technology and wealth that is generated by continu(->.d economic growth. Mr. Speaker, the Report's kE!Y recommendations center around finding incentives for change leading to more informed decision making as a result of enhanced 1...218 March 18, 1988 Vol XL understanding of the linkages between environment and the economy.

In this regard, I u..ri.ll highlight the substance of the key recommendations as embodying the following: A proposal for a nE!W co-operative initiative to integrate economic and environmental planning through the participation and debate of SE!nior decision makr:~rs in every province and at the national level. To facilitate this process, l:he Task Force has called for thE! creation of "Round Tables" on Environment and Economy to provide a forum for these decis:ion makers l:o wo1~k towards a concensus on this fundamental issue. The development of "Conservation Strategies" in eVE!ry Canadian j u r:L s di c t'io n.

The idea here is to use such strab:~giE!S as a basis for deVE!loprnent whjch ensures that the utilization of rE!Sources today dOE!S not damagE! the prospects of future generations for maintaining or improving !:heir use. CCREM, in co -operation with the Task Force and thE! propoSE!d Round Tables, should dE!Soign and implement a major communications/public participation program to promote understanding and inoitiate a national dialogue on the importance of environment --economy integration . Mr.

Speaker, I have here summarized but a few of some 40 recommendations and I would · note that this report has been recognized inlernationaJ.ly as a major achievement. It IAJas presented to the United Nations General As~ernbly in NetJJ York last October 19-th and is now be:i.ng No. 5 I~ 218

widely distributed throughout Canada and around the world. Considered by many environmentalists as one of the most progressive environmental initiatives in decades, it deserves the widespread support of all Canadians. To this end, I will be distributing copies of the Task Force Report to industries, labour groups, municipalities, universities, environmental i_nterest groups and various associations across the province with a request for their review and comment by May 31, 1988.

Further, I would invite all members of this House to give thoughtful consideration to this E!XCellent report and to advise me of their comments on its many worthwhile recommendations insofar as their implications for the future growth and well being of this province and Canada in general are concerned. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: The minister sent me a copy of his statement and the report of the Task Force on Environment and Economy ear1ier today and I thank him for that.

The report does represent an important initiative and I congratulate the minister, and I believe more appropriately, his immediate predecessor, who would have been involved during much of thE! period in qUE!stion. I congratulate them both for the role they played in facilitating L219 March 18, 1988 Vol XL the findings herein and the recommendations that flow from the report of the National Task Force.

The minister says in his statement that the document 11 may weJ.J. be looked upon by future gE!nerations of Canadians as an historic milestone along this country 1 s path toward a quality of life characterized by sustainable and environmentally sound economic development. 11 First of all, that is quite a mouthful, and secondly, it . may well turn out to be true. rhe minister· who saved rural post offices is now moon··-t..ua1king.

Whe!ther or not it bE!COmes an historic milestone, I say to him, depends not so much on thE! colour of the paper or the wor·k that has gone into it,· as it does on something else altogether: fhe will of the indj.vidual provincial administrations to implement it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: In that respect, Mr. Speaker, l:hE! question is will this report be implemented? Wi11 it be ignored or will it be flagrantly undermined? The report has some good recommendations which would . integrate concerns of environment and economic development.

Every obj ect:ive contained in the repor·t is laudible, and I had a f E!W minutes, thanks to the minister 1 s prior delivery of it, to read a bit of it. Yet, Mr. Speaker, what hope is there that this government wiJl do anything but what it does with the kind of thing it does now with its Environmental Assessment Act whE!ine it stands idly by? No , wo r s e than No. 5 R219

that, it bE!COmes a co-conspirator in a deliberate breach of The Environmental Assessment Act. I will come to that later. The minister says that is not true. I am going to give him a full opportunity later today to response to that very point. I am going to show him and show the House that the minister is a partner in a deliberate breach of The Environmental Assessment Act. But I will come to that separately. I raise it now on 1 y in · this context, Mr.

Speaker: I do not have a lot of faith that this will be the historic milestone \:he minister portends when I SE!e his record and the record of his administration on other environmental matters. If he wants a recent example, has he heard the word 1 Sprung 1 lately? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Unlike the other party on this side, I would take \:he statement the minister presented in good faith.

I welcome the stat'ement by thE! rrdniste!r today and thank him for a copy of both his own statement and the report in advance. Given that there is a new minister who is still, I am sure, finding his way around the is sues in his department, I think we in this L220 March 18, 1988 Vol XL House and the public of the Province have to give the minister the bE!nefi t of thE! doubt on what is a very critical issue of concern to the people, namely thE! protection and promotion of our E!nvironment. I think the Task Force Report does represent a very important opportunity .

I would have some concern that the minis t:er has g:lven notice that. thE!re wi1.J . be a two month period in which people can respond to this report. I would simply hope that the Department of the Environment in the Province will do everything it can to make the report available and to remind peop1.E! of the deadline to invite submissions.

I think what is going to happE.~n in this next two month period,· whE!n we are hoping that people will have a look at the report and respond to the minister, has the potential to illustrate what is a real problem with discussion of environmental issues in this Province and that is l:he lack of an indepE!ndent, non- -goVE!rnrnent. environmental community. There is not a strong independent. environmental lobby in this Province. I think tt. is very difficult for the public to understand the processes of environmental review, impact statements, prE!ViE!W rE!port.s and so on.

I would hope that this period of thE! nE!Xt two months, and following on some of l:he recornm(~ndations in this report, we can take the opportunity to strengthE!n the abiJ.ity of the public to understand envtronrnental issUE!S and to have input, both in terms of industrtal development and public policy. If I may, Mr. Speaker, like to conclude by rE!fE!rE!nce to a number of No. 5 I would rna king concerns 1~2 20

I hope the issuing of this report can allow the public to deal with more clearly in this Province when we are talking about integrating economic development and environmental issues. We in this party would have a concern that the dictates of economic development would compromise environmental concerns. There are a number of issues. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LONG: Mr.

Speaker I by way of conclusion I there are a number of outstanding economic development issues in this Province that 1.uill demand closer attention and I hope we can look forward to the minister continuing an open process that he has begun today by bringing his statement in. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. WINDSOI~: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, before I make my statement, I would like to also take this opportunity to welcome the students from Mount Pearl Central High and St. PE!ter 1 s.

I am pleased that they are here today when we are debating some issues of great irnport.ance to the Town of Mount Pearl. I might suggest, Mr. Speaker, perhaps han. gentlemen opposite would 1 ike to ask these students what they think of the project and whether thE!Y have trouble sleeping at nights. They do not look too sleepy to me this morning. They look pretty bright. L221 March 1 8 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Maybe the member for Burgeo - Bay d 1 Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) u.Jould lil<e to ask them if they think thEdr homes have been devalued, Mr. Speaker.

Anyway, on a less pleasant note, Mr. Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to Mr. George Pugh Hobbs, who was recognized by many as the architect of the Province 1 s hydroelectric system. Mr. Hobbs, of course, passed away on March 9 at the age of seventy-one. He was a native of Heart 1 s Content, Trinity Bay. He t!Jas appoini:~;;!d Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Pot.uer Commission in Decembelr, 1963 and held 'that post. until his retirement in 1974 . Beginning in 1964, Mr.

Hobbs guided the Province 1 s electric power development from a series of isolated syshHns to the integral·:ed system we now haVE! in place. He oversaw construction of projects such as the Province-wide electrical· power grid, l:he Bay d 1 Espoir hydroelectric developrnE!nt and the thermal generating plant at Holyrood . HE! attendE!d ME!rnorial LJnj VE!rsity and McGill University in Montreal, where hE! graduated in ] 94-0 as an electrical engineer.

He joined the Bowater organization at Deer Lake in 1946 and organized the hydroelectric power expansion and development at Deer Lake and Corner Brook . l-Ie is survived by his wife, Annie, two sons, John and Robert, who works at the hydro station at Bay d 1 Espoir, and t:wo daughters, Evelyn and Marion. As a fellow engineer, Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in paying No. 5 R22J.

tribute to one of the fim~st engineers that this Province has ever seen He made a tremendous contribution, particularly to the electrical system in our Province. I would ask, Your Honour, behalf of the House, that we a letter of condolence to family. MR. WELLS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Leader of Opposition. MR. WELLS : on send hJs the Mr. Speaker, I am happy to associate myself with thC::' remarks of the hon. ministE!r. At thE! outset, I must apologize to him.

When I started to make the remarks, I really did not realize that he intended to make this statement, and for that interference, I apologize to him. Mr. Speaker, in associating myself lAJith those remarks, I should tell the House that I k nE!W Mr. Hobbs very well. He was the fine gentleman that the minister says. He did make the significant contribution in the electrical field to this Province that the minister says, and he did a terrific job in laying the foundation for what is, in this Pr~vince today, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation.

He did a terrific job in the building of Bay d 1 Espoir originally. This is an opportunity for the Province to publicly express its gratitude for his contribution to the betterment of the Province. I am happy to join with the minister ·in asking the House to extend condolences to the family. 1..222 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Thank you, Mr. Speaker . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

SpE!aker, oncE! again, I haVE! to rise in my place on provid ing some information that has be en rnisconstrUE!d by the LeadE!r' of the Opposition opposite and the member for Menihek (Mr . Fenwick). I would like to addrr:~ss somE! misconceptions concerning the economy of our Prov ince, espou se d by thE! leaders of thE! Opposition parties in the media last night.

The hon . the Leader of the official Opposition, contrary to his contrived irnage of rE!asonaqleness, voicE!d opinions on the current stat:us of Lhe unernployrnC:: ~nt ratE! of this ProvinCE! that demonstrate either an abyssrnal ignorance of the economy or an -.intent -.ion to m·i s cons t:rue the facts that borders on irresponsibil :i ty. The han. Lead er of the Opposition is fond of comparing current unemployment rates to those when he was a member of the Lib eral governmen t of Mr. Smallwood in the 1960s .

What: he dOE!S not SE!em to br:~ aware of is that wh:i.lE! he was relriOVE!d from the public lif(~ of th is Province, the world did go on. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h~>ar! PREMIER PECKFORD : The late 1970 1 s and early 1980 1 s saw the unprecedented combination of high inflation and high unemployment throughout the Western world. This followed aft.E!r 1982 by the wars t rE!CE!S sion No. 5 1~222

since the great depression. It was because of the misguided economic development policies of the Liberal Government that he was a part of that we were hit harder and more severely than we should have been. Contrary to the hon. LeadE!r of thE! Official Opposition's comments last night that the unemployment had only dropped in the last couple of months, the fact of the matter is that unemployment has decreased for two years in a row and is now at its lowest since recessionary levels were encountered in 1982. The unemployment rate for 1987 was 18.6%, a drop of 2.7% in two years.

Contrary to statements made by the Leader of thE! NDP Party, who contended last night that our economic indicators are no longer tracking the national figures, we are in fact leading them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: From 1987 to 1987 our unemployment rate dropped 1. 4-%, the largest absolute decline of any Province, and with the exception of New Brunswick, the only Province to have its rate drop by more than 1%. ·Clearly, we must continue to narrow the gap between the unE!fnploymE!nt rate in our ProvinCE! and the rest of Canada, but clearly, under our government's programs and initiatives we are doing just that. The Economic Development - Job Strategy policy outlined in the SpE!ech from the Throne spE!lls out the reasons for th:i.s progress, Mr. Speaker.

We arE! rE!activating and !..223 March 18, 19 8 8 Vol XL revitalizing our resource-based industries, pursuing new resource initiatives and attempting to correct the inequities put into place by others and by that Liberal government so fondly remembered by the honourable gentleman opposite. We are promoting diversification, supporting small business development and putting the education and training and research and development programs and facilities into place that will ensure a prosperous future for our Province. May I refer the han. Leaders of thE!

Opposition partiE!S to the independent forecasts for our Province's E!conom:lc prospE!Cts rnadE! by the Conference Board of Canada? Have the leaders read the material from the Investment Dealers Association of Canada, and Atla.ntic Province Economic Council and our own Economic Council? As we will be outlihing in The Economy publication on Budget Day, 1987 continue the sufficient improvements in gross dornestjc product - that is a factor improvements in the document for 1987 will be published here in this House for thE! honourablE! members to read.

The document, entitled The Economy, will show significant improvements in l:h(?. gross domestic product, employrnE!nt up 10,000 - retail trade, construction and other indicators achieved since 1986. This Prouince is enjoying, Mr. Speaker, a new found confidence and optimism as our economic prospects continue to improVE! under this administration. .r would hope that the hon. Opposition Leaders would take note of these figures and those to come so as not: to make the same ~::~rrors that. they so convenientJ.y rnadE! No. 5 R223

last night. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . -Mr. Speaker, I tAJould like to advise the House that the only figure that I recall using - I assume the hon. the Premier is talking about the On Camera program -- thE! only figure! that I recall using with the han. Government House Leader oppo~ite is the figure of 2. 3 per cent and over 10 per cent.

What I was saying was that on average over the last five years, because he had said to me that tAJhc::~n I tAJas a minister before the unemployment figures were just as bad as they are now, I pointed out to him that during the period I u.1as a m~::~mber of this House,. which included a couple of years as a minister and three YE!ars sitting as an -.independent Liberal, l:he unemployment rate in Newfoundland was 2. 3 per cent higher than the national average. Over that five year period it averaged 2.3 percentage points higher than the national average.

In the last averaged more po-.ints higher average. three than than SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame, shame. MR. WELLS: years it has 10 pE!r CE!nt the national That is the figure that is L224 March 18, 19 8 8 Vol XL irrefutable. It is there. The statistics establish it and it establishes the record of the economic performance of this government.

What I may also haVE! said is that every single economic indicator indicates that, by comparison with the Maritime Provinces in the eight years that this government has been at office, Newfoundland 1 s performance has diminished and every single economic indicator indicates th<:lt that is so, that our performance in this provinCE! has diminished by comparison with the other Atlantic ProvincE!S, wherE!aS prior to that, including the pr:~riod whc~n thE! hon. Mr. Moores was Premier, including that period, tAle tAlere doing betb~r than the other Atlantic Pro v i n c e s . The figure s s how t h a '1: clearly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FFNWICK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Menihek. MR . FENWICK: Mr. SpE!ake!r, thE! Premier me of a die-hard Toronto Leaf fan who says - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FENWICK: I~E!ITii nd S Maple who says, Mr. Speaker, 1 This year we are two points ahead of where we were last YE!ar, hotAIE!VE!r, we are still last in the whole league. 1 ·M r . S pea k e r , I c a n no t p o s s i b 1 y understand how the Premier has the political, and quite frankly, political stupidity to go and argue about our unemployment No. S R224. '"'

rate. It is the worst in the country, it has been the wars t in the country since he has been the PrE!mier and it has not gotten any better whatsoever . I am not going to get into the fine details. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker, can I have a little bit of protection here? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: Be honest. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK : Mr .

Speaker, if that were not bad enough, if it were nol: bad enough by his own admission that our unemployment rate is in the 18 percentage point, several points ahead of the next worst province, and at least l.O percentage points higher than the rest of the country. It that were not bad enough, Mr. Speaker, over the last five years our census figures werE! so out of wack because of the thousands of people leaving the province who, if they were here, would make the numbers even worse, that I cannot see hotJJ the Premier could possibly get up and say he is doing anything credible in terms of unemployment.

It is like the doctor used to say, the operation was a success, our job creation is working, unfortunately, the patient died, nobody is working . That is the problem and I find it absolutely L225 March 18, 1988 VoJ. XL incredible that a Premier would stand up here and start put ting that argument for us. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Spe!aker, our unemploymE!nt ratE! is a shame, it is a national shame.

It is not only thE ! responsibility of this government, it is the responsibility of the PC government in Ottawa and of the Liberal government that preceded it, because they WE!re !::here For' a period of the time as well. The fact is WE! have not Found a way to create E!rnploym(•nt on a meaningful basis in th is provjncE ! and the policy that the Premier is following are not doing it and the ones that the the Leader of the Opposition promises are, quite frankly, no different and they will not cure it either. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any furth er state ments by Ministers? MR.

SIMMS : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Pre sident of the Council. MR. SIMMS : Just on a point of order with reference to a comment made by the Leader of the Opposition a J1.tt.lE! earlier in one of the exchanges. MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, the hon. the President of Council. No . 5 R225

MR. SIMMS: It he would be kind enough to point out for us where he made reference yesterday, as he said he did , that the hydroponics was not included in his estimates, I would appreciate it. We had a quick look through Hansard, but if he could check it out for us and pass it over, we would appreciate having it. MR. WELLS : To that point Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: of order, Mr. To the point 6f order, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR . WELLS : I thought I had said it in Hansard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER : OrdE!r, please! MR.

WELLS: The members opposite will continue in their abysmal ignorance as long as they do not hear anybody else other than their own noise. Mr. Speaker, I feel confident I said it in Hansard. I am absolutely certain I said it in the news media, and I pointed it. out clearly, but I will check it and I will advise the hon. gentleman. DR. COLLINS: Mr. SpE!ake!r, order. MR . SPEAKER : Order, pleaSE!! to that point of To that. point of order, the hon . the Minister of Health. L226 March 18, 1988 Uol XL DR . COLLINS : For clarification purposE!S, Ml~.

Speaker, I have read through Hansard and there are just two little bits in Hansard on that . One bit says, "The asse!ssors in the city of Calgary assessed Hd s property for municipal tax purposes on the basis of replacement cost in 19 8 5 at $3. 'I· million, including the heating," and it then goes on with other stuff. In another place;! it says, "The Cit .y of Calgary appraiSE!d this on the basis of replace1m~nt cost at less than $3.5 million ," and then goes on t.uith othc~r stuff. There is nothing that I can see in the Hansard account that reJ.atE!d to thE! E!XClusion of the hydroponic thing . MR .

SPEAKER : To that point of order, thE!r'e is no point of order. I think it was a point of clarifica ·tton on each side. Oral Questions MR . SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE! han . the rne!lnber for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. SpE!aker, yestE!rday in the House we had the latest chapt er of 1 yes WE ! did, 1 1 no we dj .d not, 1 1 y e s we did . 1 0 n t he f i r s t day the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Russell) creai:E!d the t:rut.h, on the second the Premier got creative about: the tru l:h, and yesterday the former minister decided to go back to the original truth.

It is now thE! fourth day, so will the Minister of the EnvironmE!nt. tell this House, once No. 1 ~ 1~226

and for all, is he right or is the Premier right? It can only be one or the other. They have made contradictory statements on Tuesday and Wednesday. Is he right or is the Premier right? The question is this: Has there been a registration of the Sprung undertaking? What is today 1 s version of the truth? Will the minister tE!ll us was the proposed Sprung undertaking registered as an undertaking for purposes of The Environmental Assessment Act? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister Environment and Lands. MR.

RUSSELL : of the My predecessor in this department, I think, answered that question honestly and truthfully yesterday. MR. LONG : Finally. MR. RUSSELL : Will the Muscovite please be quiet? Mr. Speaker, my predecessor yesterday indicated that meetings were held and for the reasons he gave it was decided thE!re was no environmental assessment needed and the project was not registered. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say something else. I do not mind hon. members opposite questioning me or any minis l:er of this House on things. What I do take objection to, Mr.

Speaker, is members opposite cornering a public servant in some part of Confederation Building and asking him, Do you think the minister was aware of this? I say to · public servants in this Province, Mr. Speaker, be wary of members who do that kind of thing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L227 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Shame! Shame! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. RUSSELL: Public servants in this Province, unless they were part of a conversation to advisE! mE!, Ol" in my presence having heard that I was or was not told of sotTIE!thing, certainly would not know.

I think it is grossly unfair for members of this House, on either side, l:o be sneakily and deviously asking publ'.ic servants, Do you think the ministE!r was aware of this? Ask me! Let us have it all upfront . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, l:he hon. the member for Fortune - Hermit~ge . MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, the minister has performed two services to thE! House in his answer. One, he has given a categorical no, the project was not registered. I had asked him for a YE!S or no answer, and I thank him for giving me that answer.

Secondly, he said something that we profoundly belieVE! in hE!re too, that what hE! says took place ought not to take placE!. I am not sure hE! should have used an answer to a qUE!stion to make the point. It. is a sufficiently important item that he might have wanted t.o make a Ministerial StaternE=~nt about it t.o give us an appropriatE! opportunity to respond. But we identify wil:h him, that. that is an irnpropE!r activity and we are not engaging No. S R227

in it and do not intend to engage in it. Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary for the minister. His predecessor yestE!rday said, 11 The effluence and the discharge from that project is so miniscule that it does MR. RUSSELL : Mr . Speaker, I cannot hear . MR . SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister is having difficulty hearing because of the other minister there. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I say again, the quotation from his predecessor in yesterday's Hansard, 11 The effluent and thE! discharge from that project is so miniscule that it does not really come under assessment regulaU .ons. 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, apart from the abysmal ignorance of the regulations embodied in ·that statement, is the minister not aware that the Act provides very clearly in the definition of the term 'environment' that environment includes 'the social, economic, rE!creaU .onal, cultural and aesthetic conditions and factors that influence the life of humans or· a c ornmu ni ty. ' More to the point, Mr . Speaker, why - MR. WINDSOR: It is a supplementary . with your question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

SIMMONS: Get on Why, I ask the minister, in view of the publicly expressed concerns about property values, about L228 March 18, 1988 Vol XL hordes of insects, lifestyles in the night, was no preview report done

Section 6 - about daytime middle of the environmental and why was MR. BAIIW: This is shocking! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: of The Environmeni:al Act opE!nly breachE!d requiring registration, that

section says 'E!VE!ry shall' register? Why breached? Why? MR. SPEAKER: Assessrnent in not bE! Cause proponent u.Ja s J t The hon. l:he EnvironrnE!nt. Minister of t.h E! MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, again I haVE! to say that. my prE!decessor answerE!d that question yesterday. It was not considered, after mE!etings lJ.JeJ~E! held, because the project uJas going on property that was already designated as agricultural property. So it was not considered nece .ssary. MR. SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, we have it :i.mplici.t:y t hat t i rn e , b u t qui tE! ex p l i ci . t :i. n the previous answer that - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 5 1~228

MR. SIMMONS : there was no registration. The Act says there shall be one, so the Act was breached. So I come now in my supplementary to

Section 38 of the Act, which provides that 'Every person who contravenes any provision of this · Act' is libel to certain penalty. And I ask the minister, as indicated in the definition, being responsible for thE! administration of this Act, what action has the minister taken or what action does he propose to take? Or, to put it very specifically, has the minister exercised or lAiill he now undertake to exercise his responsibility under the Act to initiate proceedings concerning this contravention of The Environmental AssessmE!nt Act by the Sprung people? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, it has b10:1en clearly obvious in this House for the past few days that the people opposite, the hon. members opposite would like nothing more than to see the project go down thE! drain. That is their one main wish and objectiVE!, to . dE!Stroy this project, for pure, unadul trated political purposes. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is right For their own political benefit only . that is all they care about. And people are becoming aware of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. IWSSELL: To dE!Stroy jobs, to destroy technology.

They just do high not L229 March 18, 1988 Vol XL want, Mr. Spe!aker, to seE! anything in this Province succeed. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. l:he mernber for Por1: de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is t:o the Minister of Health (Dr. Collins) and it is concerning his responsibilj.ty as Health Min~ister to ensure that the people of thi.s Province, number onE!, gE!t thE! bE!St possible medical and health services available to them.

And also to ensure that they ar1~ protected against any person or persons coming to this Province, professionals or otherwise, E!i ther qualified or unqualified, to make sure that they do receive the best possible health and medical care. For that reason I ask the Minister of Health why, after several years of people from the Chiropractic Association making representations to provide . that there is

an act governing the Chiropractic Association in Newfoundland, have the department and the Minister of Health not made this act available so that the people of this Province could be at least protected? DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health . DR. COLLINS: the han. member correct that Mr. Speaker, absolutely chiropractors representations :i. s i:.he rnad E! own have For their No. 5 R2?.9

act. Some of them have made representations to bring in

an act this year, this sitting. Others have made representations, not with me but to the people in the department, saying, 1 Do no t bring it in this sitting. 1 That is one area which we are studying, why some chiropractors are saying, 1 Bring it in this sitting 1 and some chiropractors are saying, 1 Do not bring it in this sit.t :ing. 1 We have to clarify this point. Th£~re is anoi:her point that sti 11 has to be clarified. There has been some clarification obtained with the operators of x-ray facilities in the Province. And as hon. members know, most x-ray facilities are operated in hospitals .

Not all of thE!m, but most of them are. There has been some clarification obtained from the operators of those facil:i.ties about how chiropractors, if undE!r their act they have the right to use X-rays in the assessment of their patients, will achieve that. We haVE! rE!CEd.ved SOITIE! clarification on that, but not complete clarification . Some of the comments are at odds with one another. That is another area that has to be clarified.

There has also been the question, and I suppose it was bound to come, that if chiropractors havo their own act or arE! regu1ated by government, 1.1.Jill they be paid from thE! pubJ.ic pursE!. ThE!re has b£~E!n almost no clarification in that area. I nE!ed to get c1ar·ification on that area because it could, of course, take a lot of expE!nditures from the public purse . I do not know how much. It might be fifty dollars a year . It might be $10 million a year. I haVE! no idea. We do not have clarificat:i.on on it.

L230 March 18, 1988 Vol XL So I am working to gE!t clarification on those three important points, as we'll as ol:her points, before I will be in a position to go to my colleagues in Cabinet and say, 1 What about bringing in

an act. 1 I hope that clarifies matters for· thE! hon. member. MR . EFFORD: A supp lementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary , l:he hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, that certainly does not clarify ma t·tE!rs to any degree. It shows the la ck of responsib ility the Minister of Health has towards the people of this Province. My questjon was very clear . Every othE!r province in Canada has

an act to pro tect the people. We are not talking about protecting the chiropractors, we are talking about protecting the poople of this Province. Because l:hc ~ t.uay it is situated in NewfoundJ.and today , Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER : Order, p1E!ase! MR . EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, why is 'i. l:. l:he MinistE!r of Health is allowing the situa tion l:o go on in Newfoundldnd today that anybody, even the rnernber for Sl: . John 1 s North (Mr . J. CartE!r), who is not in hts SE!a 'l:. today, can hang out his shingle and bE!COmE! a chj .rop1nactor, and probably that is what he is doing.

There is absoJ.utely no protection for the people of thi s ProvincE!. You cannot haVE! it both ways. Either you can practice it in this Province or you cannot practice . No . S R230

Will the Minister of Health look at the guidelines from New Brunswick, P.E.I., all other provinces of Canada, and the fifty-two States? He does not need to bring in Medicare or any X--ray technicians. He can do that afterwards. Protect thE! licensing board. Will the minister ensure this Province that legislation will be introduced this year to at least protect the people of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the han . member misunderstood me. MR. EFFORD : No, I did not . DR. COLLINS: The matter is under consideration.

There are a number of very important points outstanding that we have to get clarification on, and we are proceeding in that direction as rapidly as we can . I am sure thE:~ hon. member does not IAJant me to bring in any old act. Shall we go to some country and just say, · 'Let us have your chiropractor act,' and we scratch out their name on it and put Newfoundland on it? Is that what the han. member wants? I am not going to do that. I am going to suggc::~st to my colleagues

an act that is a sensible act, that has been adequately researchE!d, that. we know the implications of, and v.Jhen that exercise is over we will be bringing in

an act. MR. EFFORD: A further suppleiTIE!ntary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : L23 1 March 18, 1988 Vol XL A final supplementary, the han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: I suggest to the Minister of Health, Mr. SpE!aker, that the act.s in every other provincE! of Canada are not any old acts, and the minister should just take 1es"sons and rE!ad at least one of tv.Jo of them. I wo u 1 d as k the M :L n i s t e r of Health, does he condone the advertising, as I hold herE:~ :in lilY hand, by certain chiropractors in t hi s P r o v i n c e ?

D o e s h e t h i ·n g t h a t is the profE!SSional way that any doctor or any medical pr·act:i t:ionE!r should follow in this Provi~ce? Is it a thing that the pc~ople oF this Province should be subj E!Ct.E!d to? It is because there is no licensing or act to protect the people of this Province. Does he condone this sort of thing? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I am not E!Xact:J.y certain what is in that but I would be interested in SE!eing it. . I am sure the hon. member will table it. I cannot. rE!al1.y comtnE!nt on it.

I think I probably know the area he is getting in and that is that there may be some c1ai .ms for benefits from chiropractic practices thai: just cannot bE! substantiat.E!d. I suspect t.hat :i.s what he is referring to and iF it is I do not suppose anyone can condone advertising which is not totally accurate. I will study this and I will perhaps respond if it seems appropriatE! to thE! hon. member later. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Naskaupi . No. 5 R231

MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to could direct a question to the Minister of Northern Development, or the junior Minister of Rural ~gricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Warren), whichever is the correct titlE!. I use the three titles, Mr. Speaker, because I am not sure which one actually applies, and perhaps he can correct that when he stands or gives us the information. He has been called a number of things since his appointment, some quite applicable, Mr. Speaker, so when he rises he can give the - MR. SIMMS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please!

A point of order, the han. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : I know the Leader of the Oppositon wants all his members to get their questions in, but they will not get thE!m in if han. rTlE!mbers carry on with that kind of nonsense. ThE! hon. member should be ordered to ask his question. He is entitled to a

preamble to his question, but nothing t·:o do IJJith the title of the ministE!r. It is nonsense . MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I ask the hon. rnE!mbE!r to get t:o his question as soon as possible. The hon. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND : Well, actually I was as king a question, Mr . Speaker, because I was asking the minister what his L232 March 18, 1988 Vol XL correct title is. That cuas not the main question, but put simply so that I could address him properly in future. As I said. he has been called a number of things, some quite appli .cable, and want to make sure I have the correct title. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. KELLAND: The main question, Mr . Spe!akE!r, is shortly after the minister 1 s appointment to Cabinet he made fairly strong publ.ic statements in L.abrador that he woud come down here and change Cabinet 1 s rnind on the application of double daylight ·time. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hE!ar! MR . KELLAND: Now, I ask the tn:inister what representation he made to Cabinet. What did he actually say to CabinE!t and what WE!r·e thE! results of that? MR. SPEAKER : OrdE!r, please! That question is not in The advice about Cabinet matter that is out of order. MR. KELLAND: fhank you, Mr.

Speaker . or·dE!r . i..s a Wel], pE!rhaps I could rE!phrase thE! question. Why did your attempts to convinCE! Cabinet fail, Mr·. Minister? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. thE! Minister of Nort.hE!rn DeveloprnE!nt. MR. WARREN : I would like to thank thE! hon . No. 5 1~23 2

gentleman, who is still on the backbenches ouer there, for the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I feel from the question he as ked he is going to be there for a long time. In fact, Mr. Speaker, knowing the report card that the leader gives, I would say he is roughly a C- so far. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in hon . gentleman 1 s one member of discuss a lot of response to the question, I am Cabinet and I things in Cabinet. MR. KELLAND : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplemE!ntary, the hon. member for Naskaupi. MR.

KELLAND: - the I would like to suggest to the Minister responsible for Northern Development that he can take the money and I Lo..Jil.l maintain my integrity. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! MR . KELLAND: Could I ask the minister a very simple question? MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. L233 March 18, 1988 Vol XL MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is trying to be humorous and is doing a terrible job of it.

Wha'l: he just said thE!n is cJ.E!arly an imputation of the hon. minister 1 s motives. I suggest that Your Honour should look at what that member said and order that hon . member to withdraw or else Your Honour should name the hon. member and ask him to leave this Chamber. MR. KELLAND: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : of order, To the point of order, the the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND : Mr. hon . I would be quite happy to withdraw any remarks that might have imputed anything to the han . minister. May I continue 1ny s uppJ.emE! ntar y? MR . SPEAKER: That point of order has been taken care of.

The hon. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND: Would the minister teJ.l the House, does he think double daylight: savings tirne is good or bad for Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister responsiblE! for Northern Development. MR. WARREN : Mr. SpeakE!r, gentleman for No. 5 I thank the han. his supplementary R233

question but I think the hon. gentlE!man' s supplementary question has brought him from a C- to an F-. Mr. Speaker, talking about money, I was not paid $125,000 . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: The taxpayers are paying you . MR. WARREN: That is right. I am paid by the taxpayers of the Province including Labrado~. Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. gentleman that whether it is double daylight savings time or not there are still only twenty-four hours in a day. MR. KELLAND : A furthc:1r Speaker. supplementary, Mr . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Naskaupi. MR.

KELLAND : Mr . Speaker, obviously the minister does not intend to answer his position. Does he think double daylight savings time is good or bad for Labrador? If hE! thinks it is bad now, and he did think it was good, or he thinks it i s good now , a n d thou g h t i t was bad before, what happened to change his mind, and why is he not.u going against bE!tter than 90 pE!r cent of the people in Labrador on this issue? MR. SPEAKER : The han. thE! MinistE!r of NorthE!rn Development. MR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think the hon. gentleman should L234- March 18, 1988 Vol XL realize that government has brought this project in on an experimental basis. It has been said publicly that if it dOE!S not work, corne October 31 it will be changed if thE!Y wish. I bE!lieve• if the hon. gentl~::1rnan would talk to a lot of the people in Labrador, he would find that l:he 90 per cent has diminished considerably. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr . SpE!akE!r . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the m~::Hnber For TwilJ.ingate . MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, my qUE!stion j_s to Hw Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) and it concerns the recently signed Canada Newfoundland Inshore Fisheries Subsidiary Agreement. Mr. Speaker, given the fact that 73 per cent, or approxtma ·tely, I suppose, 12,000 to 1:~.ooo fishermen in Newfoundland use fishing boats of less than - MR. PATTERSON : No heckling from the benches, now . MR. SPEAKER : OrdE!r, please! MR . W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker, given the fact: that : 73 per cent of Newfoundland's - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker, can I have silence? MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! No . 5 R234-

MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Fisheries a question concerning the recently assigned Federal/Provincial Fisheries Subsidiary Agreement. Given the fact that 73 per cent of our Newfoundland inshore fishermen, roughly 12,000 to 15,000 use boats of twenty-five feet in J.ength or less, can the minister tell the House what provision is being made to help that large number of Newfoundland fishermen overcome some of the problems they have been encounte~ing because of the poor fishery these past few years? I ask the minister the question now because soon they will have to gear up for the fishery.

And rny understanding of it is that in many cases these people do not have the necessary financing, working capital, to buy the nets that they are required to buy, and if something is not done they are going to be driven to the village merchant or the fish plant owner and have to obtain credit . Now can the minister tell the House is there anything in this report that. I have misse!d, or dOE!S he have plans to accommodate that large number of Newfoundlanders? MR . RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman for his qUE !Stion.

His observation on statistics is obviously correct. But, I mean, there are other statistics that the han. gE!ntleman should be ao.Jare! of. For example, the repayment

schedule to the Fisheries Loan Board this year, if you want: to . talk about how bad inshore fishery has been all over Newfoundland and L235 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Labrador, if you want to talk about doom and gloom, the repayments of loans to the Fisheries Loan Board this year is over $3 million more than we budgeted. So fishermen's incomes have obviously, and the!ir earnings, obviously, must have gone up or they. would not have been ablE! to pay. That does not mean to say that everything is rosy, that there are no problems out there.

But the fact of the matter is that incomE!S to fishermen have gone up and that they haVE! been re!paying thedr loans moreso than was projected. There arE! sorne provisions in th:Ls particular agreement that \Aiill be beneficial to fishermen. And, secondly, of course, I tAJill not put a date on this , but t. her E• wi J J be a significant major announcement corning within the next few days regarding the debt of fishermen in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: hon . the Mr.

Speaker, I can app recia l:E! the minister's answer. MaybE! thE! Loan Board's repayment is up. Rut I suggest to him that it is bE!Cause of "the good year l<."4S t y~ ~ar that was experienced by the J.argE !r vessel owners in some cases, the longliner operators. I go back t.o my qUE!St:i.on, Mr. Speaker. What is the minister planning to do for the! smaJ.l boat fishermen, the man and his son or his neighbor, who fishes off Puffin Island in Bonavista Bay or No . 5 R235

Peckford 1 s Island or off White Bay South, what can that small boat fisherman expect to get this year by way of help when he goes to gear up for this year 1 s fishery? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: presently, rna king a for every Mr. Speaker, I wi 11 be announcement fisherman in the ProvinCE! . MR. W. CARTER : by leave, fantastic inshore A further supplementary, Mr. SpE!aker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE.~ mr:~rnbe r For Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, in the background report of the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment, there is a quote herE! from a fisherman from the minister 1 s own district, and when he was asked by the authors of the report what he thought of thE! fishE!ry, h€~ said, 11 This year it is very bad . I have seen happier faces on turrs on the F u n k s . 11 T h a t was s i g ned by a small boat fisherman in White Bay. Now, my qUE!stion again to thE! minister, Mr.

Speaker- and I appreciate what hE! is saying about the statement forthcoming but let us not forget that statE!mE:!nt. has been promised now for rnore than a year - is: What is thE! minj_ster going to do t.1.Ji thin the next month to maybe put a little happier smile on that fisherman 1 s face than what was on it last year when he compared it to a face on a turr on the Funks? What is he going to do for them? MR. SPEAKER: L236 March 18, 1988 VoJ. XL The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. SpeakE!r, the gE!ntleman wilJ. no doubt wait and maybe the smile will changE'. ThE! fact of thE! matter is, Mr.

Speaker, I: hat for the 450 or 500 years there has been a society callE:~d Ne,wFoundland and Labrador thE! fishE!Y'Y has had its up and i·t has had its downs. ThE! sm:i .J.E! disappears soiTIE! YE!ars and it t.~.rill reappear other years. And he said it has bE!E!n prorniSE!d for a year . Let me tell l:he hon. ge,nt.J.eman, Min. Speaker, that whE!n you are dealing t.~.rith th.::~ accounl: .s of 3 500 pE!Ople at thE!

Loan Board alone, as he t.1.Jell knouJs as a former ministe,r, you just cannot tJ.Jalk through that and say we are going to do this without consulting the fishermen, without consuJ.ting the• unions, and w:i.thout putting it t:hrough the propor channels through Cabinet. So it has been a very difficuJ.t, detailed, complex pjece of business. But, Mr. Speaker, it is done. It has been done in consultation with the fishermen. The fishermen 1 s advice has been listened to. The announcement, Mr.

SpeakE!r, which has taken a year or so to come, will be a bettE!r announcE!ITIE!nt bE!CaUSE! it tJJas done right, and it tAJas done propE!rJ.y. It tAd.lJ bE! a good programme, and I hopl'! it t.~d.ll b1?. welcomed by the hon. gentJ.emen. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. SpE!akE!r . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the rnE!Tnber for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. SpE!akE!r, tl1e Minister No. 5 rny of question is for Social Services R236

(Mr. Tobin), if someone can find him back there. It has to do, Mr. Speaker, with a recent legal decision that was given in a court in Grand Falls, in the Newfoundland Provincial Court, which ruled effectively that the Young OffE!ndE!rs RE!ViE!W Board that. 1..\Jas establish!:.~d by this government about a year ago is, because of its procedures, unconstitutional.

My question to the Minister of Social ServicE!S, if we can get hirn back, or to the Government House Leader or whoever else wishes to answer it, is: Since 'it is now clearly beE!n SE!en that the board itself and its procedures are unconstitutional, would the government give us some indication of whether they are considering disbanding the whole procedure and going back to using provincia]. court judges, as is the case in every other province in Canada? Mr.

Speaker, returned so question. the minister I will repeat just the The question concerns the Young Offenders Review Board which is under the auspices of the Department of SociaJ. Services. It is my understanding that a recent court dE!Cision in Grand FalJ.s has indicat~::~d that the board and its proCE!dures arE! unconstitutional. The question for t:he minister is, since that is the case, is the government now considering disbanding thE! board and going back to the procedure used 'in the other nine provinCE!S, and that is to use provincial court judges to review these sentences? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services . MR. TOBIN: L237 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, we have just received, I believe it was yesterday, a copy of the judgernE!I1t that was rendered by the judge. The officials from my department, as well as the officiaJ.s frorn t.he Justice Department, are notAl making an assessment of what thE! ruling 1..\Jas. At this point in time thE!re is nothing elSE! we can say unt .il such time as the officials have the opportunity to go through it and see how the judgement was made, what it was based on, if the whole committee was struck down or various parts of it..

That :i.s basically betng dealt wtth right now by the departments. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member· for Menihek. ~.R. FENWICK: My supplementary is for whoever in the government ccHl answer it. Since the Minister of Justice, l·:he Solicitor GE!neraJ. (Ms. VergE!) ts not here, it may be apt to be l:he Government House Leader (Mr. Simms). It is my understanding that that judgemE!nt was madE! two or three weeks ago and under our legal system you have to appeaJ within thirty days.

Could l:he goVE!rnrnent give us SOITIE! i·nd:ication if it intends to appeal the decision? Of course, if it appeals the deciston we may end up in court for a J.ong period of time. A corollar-y question l:o that is that in the time IA.JE! arE! appealing it, what is the status of the Young 'OffendE!rS RE!UiE!W Board? Is it legitimately empowered to deal with these cases, or should youn~J offE!nders in custody now go back to provincial court judges? Can Lve get a clarification of that from No. S R237

the ministE!r? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! PrE!Sident of the Council. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, just to really corroborate what the Minister of Social Services has already said, the whole matter, the entire matter is presently being assessed, the questions that the hon. member asks will bE! answerE!d in due course, but we cannot provide him with an answer yet because we have not made the decision yet . The question of what happens to t.hE! board is also another matter that is presently under consideration and being assessed . MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR . FENWICK: Could I just have supplementary, because important? SOME HON. MEMBERS : By lE!aVE!. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. SPEAKER : a final it is very Leave has not been granted. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Spe!ake!r, what people who are in is the question . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! happens to custody? the That L238 March 18, 1988 UoJ. XL The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. I would likE! to welcomE! at this stage to the galleri es Grade U students from St. Patrick 1 s HaJJ. School with their teacher Brother Conti. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR . SIMMS : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Preside nt oF 1~ h E! Council. MR . SIMMS: Mr. SpE!akE !r, I would like to present: the Annual l~ e port of l~h e NE!Wfoundland and Labrador ComputE!r Services for the y~1 ·ar 1986---87, ending March 31, 1987 . Petitions MR. EFFORD: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE! hon. thE! JTIE!fllbE!r for Port de Graue. MR . EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. SpE!ake!r, I takE! great plE!asurE! in rising to present a petition on behalf of sorne forty peopJ. e frorn the Bay St.

George Foster Par,:!nts Association who arE! very concerned about the layoffs 11 \:hat ulill criticaJ.ly affect the services that are needed for our children No. ~> R238

and all those enriched by the workers. who live and are SE !rvice of social 11 Children who usually come to live in our homes are children who have either been abused mentally, physically or sexually. 11 The social worker is the link between the child and the system. 11 Their services are vi tal to the child, and as a to the children well-being of the Province we must increase our approximately 150 workers. 11 As citizens cannot perrni t this service. 11 we the service by new social feel that redu c t:ion we of Mr.

Speaker, on a number of occasions last year the former Minister of Social Services was presented with a number of petitions on behalf of the pE!oplE! in the Stephenville area and l:he people all OVE!r thE! ProvinCE!. Mr. Speaker, it is VE!ry important that we keep preSE!nting those petitions because the Department of Social Services, under the guidance of the new minister, has not come forth with any policy or anything to ensure the people of this Province there are going to be any changes made whatsoever to protect thE! people in this particular environmE!nt.

Constantly you talk to people. the management, and thE! social workers and all the departments in district and regional offices around the Province and everyone of thE:~m will indicate to you on a firsthand basis that they are OVE!rl.\Jorked. They cannot in no way substantiate or handle the cases and the number of calls they receive day by day . L239 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, the present policies that are now set forth and operated under in the Department of Social Services are the same policies that have been tn since Newfoundland joined Canada.

WE! have not had any major chang~~ in the policy developed by the Department of Social Services. All we have had in those number of years is just a few new policies added on and the policies that have been added on in the last few years by the former MinistE!r of Social Services do not deal 1.11i th thE! problems of this ProvinCE!. I can give you an example. Just yesterday I had a cal1 fr·om my district where an elderly gentleman has just received an open heart operation. had beE !I1 returned to his home and found that his lights had bE!en cu 1: by thE! Newfoundland Light and Power.

It was the responsibility of l::he DepartmE!nt of Social s~~rvicE!S. to whom he had · made several representations. to haVE! that pa:id for him. Back in January they had agreed on a monthly basis to ensure that this would be paid, and that amount of monE!Y would be deducted from the amount of money he was supposed to be receiving from the Social Services Office. BecauSE! of thE! OVE!rworking and because of the nutnbE!r of caSE!loads that E!ach soc:laJ workE!r has had :in each particular ar·ea. they cannot do the job effectively and properly. and as a result t:h1:! . man 1 s lights were cut.

This is j us l: a very s rna 11 . i. so 1 a tc::~ d case , but it is what is happening all over the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. You may put a request in to have a social worker . visit one t.r.Jidot.u or somebody in a particular community and it l:akes several we.:.~ks before No . 5 R239

·'' t.ha t social worker can get to go around to visit that person to see what their needs are. In many cases there are emergency needs. An emergency cannot wait two, three or four weeks. They need to be looked at on that particular day. I expected the new Minister of Social Services (Mr. Tobin), when he took over his department, he would immediately start changes because he said very clearly in a television interview that he had the experienCE! of being a former social worker and that he was looking Forward with great enthusiasm to improving the conditions of the social recipients of this Province.

Since that date we have not. seen anything whatsoever to change the policies or· change the environment or the conditions they are working under since last year or the previous years, absolutely no change whatsoever. The people of this Province are living far, far below the standards of the rest of Canada. In fact, the widows, for example, are st:i.ll living about $8,000 or $10,000 below the poverty line in Canada. We have widows living :in this Province with an income of approximately $250 per month.

They make a request for some repairs, some oil, or something, from a social worker and it takes the social worker two, three or four weeks before they can get around to see that individual. It is impossible, M·r. Speaker, under the conditions that the social workers are operating now and because of the people that tAJere laid off last year, for any department, any regional or disfrict office in this Province L240 March 18, 1988 Uo1 XL to effectively do their job.

They can not even do their jobs under the pres1wt policy, so if the minister has any concern whatsoever for all the people of this Province and not through the i ,~ own fault , i t is through the lack of ability of this present administration to croate jobs and to get people away from the social services environment t:hat they are living into that thE!Y are reduCE!d to i:his form of living, through no fault of their own. If we are going to reduce them to that type of living, then we can at least provide them with the essential SE!rvices. A family of five, Mr.

Speaker, livtng :in l:.h:is Ptnov:inCE! today has to liVE! on a total income of $510 per month, not a week, but $')10 a month. WE! know that thoSE! peoplE! from day to day, from week to week, because of the low income they receive, they have to make numerous calls to the Department of Social Services. A very important fact, Mr. Speaker, is thai: that is why the social service workers are overworked because of the conditions all the social recipients are living under. The case load is piling up and up. In conclusion, Mr.

Spe!aker, I ask the new Minister of Social Services to takE! this petition very seriously, unlikt::~ ht~ did u.d.l:h the one prE!sent:ed by somE! of t·.he people in the district of the hon. member For St . John's East (Mr. Long). Look at this VE!ry seriously and ensure that something is done about this immediately to pr·otect alJ the people all around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . No. S R24 -0

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. ·TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I did not get to see the peti tton but I heard the hon. gentleman. As usual the hon. gentleman spoke the way that he usually speaks, with very little knowledge while making out he knows a whole lot. lie sa:i.d there have been no policy changes in the Department of Social Services since Confederation. Mr. Speaker, that will tell you what the hon. gentleman knows about the Department of Social Services.

Was there a Division of Employment Opportunities with approximate!ly_ $4-0 million bE'!.ing spr:~nt a year to put people in the workforce, Mr. Speaker, during Confederation or under the Liberal rE!giiTIE! when his leader IJJas therE!? No I r'lr. Speaker. What about our other programs? What about the Division of Homemaker and Day-Care Services, Mr. Speaker? Was that the!re? No, Mr. SpE!aker, it certainly was not. What about. all the othE!r divisions WE! have going in mental retardation· and rehabilttation and all of these division, Mr. Speaker? Was that thE!rE!? No, Mr.

SpeakE!r, but what was there and is not there now is the segregation of people who were on social assistance. When people needed social assistance in this Province, Mr. Speaker, under the government that his leader and others over thE!re espoused to be part of, people had to pass in thejr license plates and line up in order to qualify L241 Mar·ch 18, 1988 Vol XL for social assistance. They were not permitte!d to drive thedr· cars or their trucks. IF _something happE!ned in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, whE:~re somebody, through no fault of their ou.m, had to receive social assistance, under the Liberal regime in this Province they had to line up, bring in their license plates, park their cars, Mr. Speaker, and bE! SE!gregated in society. That is what happened. The member says nothing has changed, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can also say to thE! han. member that this segregation has stopped. People used to have to line up to get social assistance and the!rE! was no such thing as receiving a cheque and going to thE! bank and changing :Lt. the samr:~ as anyone else IAJould do if they were working.

That was not the process, Mr. ~3peakE•r. People had to go and gE!t an order where they were segregdl~ed again. They had to linE! up, M1~. SpE!ake•r, in a store with an order segregating them from the other people. That day is O\Jer· '.in l~h is Pr6vince as well. Mr. Speaker, as it relat.E!S to the• operations of the Department of Social Services, I did practice social work for ten years and I can say that I arn proud of those ten years. I worked u.d l~h a f-ine group of individuals. A Jot of my former co--workers, Mr. Speaker, are sttll working in the field. A lot of new ones have come in thai~ pE!riod.

I can say to the hon. gE!ntJ.E!Irlan that they are one of the finest, dedicated groups of individuals who are committing themselves t~o working for people who are less fortunate than l~he rE!Sl~ of us, with a great sense of pride. I do know as well, Mr. Speaker, that No. 5 R24-l.

the social workers who are out there in this Province do work hard. There is absolutc:!ly no doubt about that. I can further say, Mr. Speaker, that whatE!Ver concerns the social workers have in this Province they do have an avenUE! to me. I can tell them that. I have travelled since I became minister of this department. I have met with every social worker in thE! City of St. John's and all of the offices. I have been over in Exon House, Mr. Speaker. I have visited other offices outside the! overpass. I have done, Mr.

Speaker, what the social workers in this Province wo u 1 d 1 ike mE! to do , and that is t.o go out the!re and to listen to their concerns and to see what we can put in place. They have concerns. I do not throw that away lightly. They do have concerns, the social workers in this Province. I have made myself available to go out and to listen to them. I have made myself auai lable to go out and to talk to them . I can say to the han . gentleman, Mr .

Speaker, the people who work for this department can work there with pride and the people who have to avail of our services - if the han. gentleman was to look at the bre!akdown of t.he number of people who avail of the services, the people who are employable versus the people who aJ~e off for other reasons, such as sickness or whatever the case rnay be, the ' long-terrn assistancE! versus thE! short-term assistance and so on, then I think, Mr. Speaker, he would know where we are corning from. As it relates mentions - to the case that he L.24-2 March 18, 1988 · VoJ. XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The han. ministe!r' s tirne has elapsed. MR. TOBIN: Could I have just a second? MR. WELLS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. MR. TOBIN: ThE! leader said yes. As it relates to the case that the hon. member mentioned here, Mr. Speaker, about sornr:wne in his district, if hE! wants mE! to check that out, I can go up behind l:he curtain and ge!t thE! namE! and I LJ.r.ill check it out and get back l:o him wi t.h the information. If WE! did make a commitment that we were going to be responsible for it and have it paid and that broke dm~m sornewhE!rE!, I would certainly likE! to know about it and check it out.

If thE! han. ge!nt.lE!rrtan would like to do that., I would be rno1"e than willing, Mr . Speaker. MR. FUREY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, just a m·inute or so to comment on this petition present:ed by l:he member for Port de Graue, it is fascinating to listen to i:he Minisb.~r of Social Services stand in his pJ.ace today and give this litany of how we have suddenly come upon enlightened times. Mr. SpE!aker, the fact of matter is that his predecessor, thE! if No. 5 R24·2

you want to talk about enlightened times and crawling out of the dark ages, and correct me if I am wrong, any hon. member, was the Clne who stated in this House that somehow bE!Cause working mothers had to go out and work, their children were juvenile delinquents. Now, was that stated by this side of thE! House or that side of the House? Enlightened times is what u.Je have come upon, Mr . Speaker, . and ii : is interesting that all of the Cabinet Ministers and the members opposite, in their silence, consented to what the minister said. Mr.

Speaker, if you want to talk about enlightened times, therE! is an obvious example of where the Tory policies have rE!ally stuck us in archaic times, even though this is thirteen years from the 21st Century. Mr. Speaker, just for the record so that this new young minister understands where 'the idea of issuing chE!ques came from, the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) can tell him, as he has told us, that it was a former Liberal Minister, Mr.

Neary, who piloted the project in Fogo of issuing the first cheques and offering dignity to those people who are caught in thE! social safety net, through no fault of their own. So let the record be clear on that. Mr. Speaker, speaking of enlightened times, tJ.Je have to ask ourselves where we have come in the nearly eighteen years of this Conservative administration. Have we seen people given every possible single break, .every opportunity or have we seen cutbacks?

I submit to the House that it is a question of priority when a widow has to choose in my riding, as she told me herself, L243 March 18, 19 8 8 Vol XL between buying groceries and paying for her light bilJ., and she had to pay half on her light bi'll and buy half of her groceries, while this administration runs around on a $1,400-a-day limousines. It is pretty darn hard to look into her eyes and say that this administration has its priorities straight. Mr. Speaker, there WE!re edg ht parliamentary secretaries for twenty-three ministers last year .

Did they look at that in reality and say, 1 Look, we should cut back. This is not necessary because we had the Newfoundland Information Services . 1 MR. TOBIN : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A paint of order, the hon. thE! Minister of Social Services. MR. TOBIN: I do not want to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but if he is going to be getting up like this, he should be truthful, Mr. Speaker. When he talks about people on social assistance who have to take part of their cheque to buy fuel, that is the case!. When they gE!l their cheque, it is for food and fuel. It is called reguJ.ar assistance.

One l:ilnE! there tJJas so much for food and so much for clothing and so much for~ fuel, but now it is all regular assistanCE!, Mr. Speaker, and it is all on l:he one cheque. That is what they should do. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The han. the member for St. Barbe. No. 5 R243

MR. FUREY: ·Mr. Speaker, the ministE!r is correct, nobody is denying that. It is just when the lump sum lands on the widows table and she has to look at the incredible amounts of monr::~y that have to go out to heat her house and the incredible amounts of money that have to go out in other bills, she has to make some fundamental decisions. That is the only point I raise to the minister to take note of.

Then when this same particular person looks at me and says, 1 Why can I not have a little bit more from this government if thE!Y can send peop 1 e a 11 around the world, twenty-three globe-trotting ministers, and that has been established, there is no question about that, tAJhy can I not have a littlE! bit. more? 1 InstE!ad of etght parliamentary secretaries, ~ot parliamentary secretaries but press secretaries to get their prE!SS relE!ases out, instE!ad of cul:ting back, what do they do? They increase it. We have the Newfoundland Information Service downstairs.

All thE!.Y have to do is sent it down there and it to~.liil be distributed properly, as is thE! case. Mr. Speaker, when we look at the entire problems in social s e r vices , nobody wants to be on social services, nobody in this Provtnce. To l:ake crE!dil: because bE!tween 1979 and 1988 the budget has doubled, My God, I mean that is something that you should be ashamed of. It is directly related to the economic performance of this government and the economy in the Province. MR. TOBIN : That is not trUE! . MR . FUREY: L244 March 18, 1988 Vol XL People have three choices. MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please! MR .

FUREY: They can either collect social assistancE! or - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. rnernber 1 s time has elapsed. MR. FUREY: May I conclude, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leaVE!. MR. SPEAKER: There is no leave . Orders of the Day DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, somE! first readings, if I rnay. Motion, the hon. t:he Minisl~ .er oF FinanCE! to introducE! a b:ill, "An Act To amend The Retail Salc~s fax Act, 1978, 11 carriE!d. (B:Lll No. 10) On motion, Bi 11 No. 10 rE!cld a a second first tirne, ordered read time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Mi.nist:E!r of Finance to '.introduce a bi11, "An Act To Amend The Insurance Cornpantes Tax Act," carr'it::~d. (Bn .l No. 11) On motion, Bi11 No . (11) rE!ad a first time, ordered r(,~i'\d a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister oF Finane(~ to introduCE! a b:i11, II

An Act To Amend The Mineral Holdings Impost: Act, II carried. (Bill No. No. 5 I~ 2/1.4-

12) On motion, Bill No. (12)· read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. the Minister of Development and Tourism to introduce a bill, 11An Act To Amend the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation Act And To Repeal The Harmon Corporation Act, 1966-1967,11 carried. (Bill No. 6) On motion, Bill No. (6) read a first time, ordered read a SE!Cond time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. the MinistE!r of Fisheries to introduce a bill, 11An Act To AmE!nd The Fish Inspection Act,11 carried. (Bill No. 15) On motion, Bill No. (15) read a first time, ordered read a SE!COnd time on tomorrow.

Motion, the han. Social Services bill, 11An Act To Persons Offences (Bill No. 26) the Minister of to introduce a Amend The Young Act, 11 carriE!d. On motion, Bill No. (26) read a first timE!, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, thE! hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, 11An Act To ArriE!nd ThE! Fatal AccidE!nts Act,11 carried. (Bill No. 22). On motion, 13'.ill No. (22) read a first time, ordered read a SE!COnd time on tomorrow.

Motion, the han. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, 11An Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act, 1975,11 carried. (Bill No. 23) On motion, firs t t :i me , Bill No. (23) ordered read a L245 March 18, 1988 read a second Vol XL time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the JustiCE! to introduce Act To Amend The Act,11 carried. (Bil1 lvtinis l:er of a b:i11, 11An Conveyancing 1\lo. 21) On motion, Bill No. (21) rE!ad a first t:ime, ordered rr,1ad a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. thE! r~in:i.ster of Health to introduce a bill, 11

An Act Respecting The 1\IE!WfoundJand Hospital And Nursing Home Association, 11 carried. (Bill No. 20) On motion, Bi 1.1 No. ( 20) rE!ad a first time, ordered r(:!ad a second time on tomorrow. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, on Motion 2. MR. SPEAKER: we adj out~ ned d'~bate Motion 2. That debate was adjourned by the hon. the Leader of the-Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! MR. WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. SpE!akE!r, I had bat'E!ly golt.E!n started yesterday t.uhen our Lime had elapsed.

I was starting to say thai: to really assess uJhether or not the Meech Lake Accord is good for Newfoundland, which is our primary concE!rn in this House•, we have to stop and think, stop and consider thE! re•al naturE! of a federal state and t.uhat l:he position of a province is in a fedt~ral state. I suggE!St, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier's treatmE:~nt of it :is a V(~ry superficial one and has not really considered the position of a No. S R24·5

'- Province like Newfoundland in a federal state. And while a federal system is ideally suited to a country likE! Canada, with a number of diversed provinces, it depends upon having a proper federal system and proper federal institutions functioning. I share onE! comment with thE! Premier, that the Premier made, completely: 'Each province is juridically equal and rnust be juridically equal.' but I am not prepared, Mr. Speaker, to simply make the words and give no meaning to them. We have to take a look at what it really means to be juridically equal.

It i.s not enough to be called a province or to have a Lieutenant Governor or have a Premier and a House of Assembly to achieve juridical equality in a fE!deral systEHTI. Even the recital in the Accord itself starts out with that assumption. It says, "And Wherc~as thE! arnE!ndment propoSE!d in thE!

schedule hereto also recognizes the principle of equaJ.ity of all of the provinces." I tAiill show, Mr . Speaker, that what the resolution in fact does is denies the equality of all the provinces and gives some provinces a special status. It is fundamental to a federal system that has a breakdown on the basis of a division of powers, as we do, tha ·t the powers that the provinces have can be exercised by this Legislature without intereference by the federal government, and we can do in this Province things that are · different in other provinces; we can have different local laws.

And that is the beauty of the federal system. But, Mr·. Speaker, the E!Xercise of federal legislative powers, that is the pas sage of 1 aw s affecting the who1e country and not just a l..24-6 March 18, 1988 VoJ. XL province or a group of provinces, must have the approval of the two basic majorities in a federal system . One majority is the majority of the people, and you measure the acceptability of the exercise of federal legislative power by taking a vote in the House of Commons where, For example, Ontario and Quebec together have 60 per cent of the voting members. But you must also, Mr.

Speaker, recognize that there is another majority, and that is \:he majority of the ten juridicaJ. equalities that the PrE:~rnier talks about. And unless thE! fE!deral pOWE!r is bEd.ng exercised in a way that is acceptable to that majority, it should not be passed. Every fE!deral law t.ha t is pass E!d ought : to be acceptable to the majority of the provincE !S, not just thE! majority of the people. Thi.'lt is the only way a fE!deral statE• can work fairly. As it stands a\: t:he mornE!nt, Ontario and Quebec dictate what. is to happen in this country .

And if we are to have a true federal state, whE!re l:he provinces ar·e truJ.y E!qual as provinces, then WE• have to have a second Chamber wherE! thE!rE! is an E!qual vo:i CE! for each province. Canadian federalism has bE!en dE!ficient for a 120 yeclrs j_n that. we do not have a proper Senate whose function it would be to allow the provinces to vote on the exercise of federal legislative power so as to ensure \:hal : every law passed nationally meets wi th the approval of the majority of the provinces and not just. the people of Ontario and Quebec as it is at this moment. No. 5 R24-6

We have heard the phrase frequently, Mr . Speaker, • a Triple E Senate 1 • That Triple E Senate means a Senate that is e~ual, with equal numbers from each province, a Senate that is elected, where its members are elected, and a Senate that is effective. In other words, it has the same powers to approve legislation or disapprove of it as the House of Common does. The Premier says representing · regional interests is one of the most important functions of a Senate. I take issue with him, Mr. Speaker. In a proper federal system, it is the single major function of the Senate. That is what it is there for.

That is why it exists in that way in Australia, where there is an equal number of senators from each province. That is why it exists that way in Switzerland, wherE! there is an equal number in the second Chamber from each canton. That is why it exists that way in the United States, where there is an equal number of senators From each state. Wyoming, with a population smaller than the population of Newfoundland, has two senators. California, with a population of 27 million, has two senators .

And that is the way it should be if a federal system is to work properly, and those words that the Premier used a half a dozen times yesterday, 1 juridical equality for the provinces, • is to have real meaning. It is no good to spout those words in this House or anywhere else and not understand what they mean or not. giVE! effE!Ct to them, which is what Meech Lake causes. Clearly, the Senate must have an equal number of rE!presentations from each Province. In that way, L24-7 March 18, 1988 Vol XL Newfoundland would have 10 per cent of the voting power.

At the moment, we have 2.5 per cent of thE! voting power of thE! House of Commons. We would be equal with every other ProvinCE! and we would then have juridical equality. Until that occurs, there is no juridical equality amongst the Provinces of Canada. Just look at the present situation in the Senate for a moment. When you look at it, Ontario, wit h a population that is 40 per cent greater than QUE!bE!C, has thE! satnE! number of Senators, twenty-four. Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba each have six Senators. Ye!t, Alberta has morE! than t11.d CE! the population of either Saskatachewan or Manitoba.

How does that make sense? British Columbia, with four timE!S the population of New Brunswick and nearly four times the population of Nova Scotia, has six Senators -­ Nova Scotia and New Brunswick each has ten. I~ that juridical equality? Of course it is not. Newfoundland has six Senators, with nearly five times the population of Prince Edt.vard Island which has four Senators. That is not juridical equality. The system that is in place now is not a system at all. It does not work.

Everytime the Senate decides to do something or express an o pi n i o n , e u e r y bod y j urn p s o n l: he Senate - 'You cannot say that 1 They were challenging this Drug Law recently, Bill C22, and the Senate was expressing concern about the impact on Canadians of changing the law that increased the period For t.JJhich pa l:.t~<.~n rights exist. Everybody jumped :irm:nediately on the ·Senate and said, • You cannot do that. You are not elected. 1 No. 5 R247

Well, to be fair, Mr. Speaker, fortunately most people in Canada recognize, and the Senators themselves recognize, that they have no political legitimacy. And it is not really right for a group of people t.uho are appointed to be salted away, largely, which has been the practice of the past, should exercise major political power. But the correction is not to prevent the Senate from speaking but to cause the Senate to be elected, which is what we should be doing. Third, Mr. Speaker, the Senate must be effective. That is where the Triple E comes from.

It must have equal voU.ng power with the House oF Commons, as it did from the beginning, except money bills could not originate in the Senate and tax biJ.ls could not originat.e in the Senate . Oi:her than t:hat, it had the same voting power as the House of Commons, and it has to if it is going to work properly. I suggest to members of this House, Mr. Speaker, that the lack of a proper functioning Senate has been the major cause of difficulties and dissension in Canada for a hundred and twenty-fiVE! YE!ars.

It is the major cause of the dissatisfaction in the four WE!Stern Provinces, because they do not feel they get a fair voice at thE! nationa1 level. And they do not. They fee!l that everything is dE!termined in the East. In the Atlantic Provinces WE! are complaining constantly of regional disparity, because all i:he wealth and opportunity is concentrated in Central Canada . And that is, in fact, so. The reason it is so is we have not yet developed in Canada a balance to the overwhelming voting power of L248 March 18, 1988 VoJ. XL. Ontario and Quebec in the House of Commons. Their wishes always carry the day.

And if we want a clear example of how we have bE!en adversely affected in this province and other Atlantic Provinces, we have only to look at the variety of efforts that haVE! been made over the last 20 years to correct regional disparity. None haue euer worked. The economic disparity between the Atlantic Provinces today and Ontario is as great as it. was 20 years ago. Yet, we have had ADA and ARI:9A and DREE and DRIE and a whole host of other things that have been put forward as means to correct l:he regional disparity. All, Mr. Speaker, have beE!n abjE!Ct failures.

Every single one of them has failed and now, Mr. Speaker, the ACOA programme, the Atlantic Canada Oppurtunities Agency, is on the way to failing, too. If I can just find the budget speech of Mr. Wilson givon a little while ago, it is clearly indicated in that. What has happened , you s e E! , they wi J 1 develop this great :idea that ADA or ARDA or DREE is going t.o soJve all our economic problems and they will apply it to the Atlantic problems. Then, without exception, w:i .t.hin 12 to 18 months eV(~ry single one of thE:1m has bE!E:1n applied to the rest of Canada.

Now, not only does thai: not correct regional disparity, it aggravates it, because now rich Ontario and Quebec have another means of assistance and people there have a better opportunity to take advantage of .it then we do. And they have just reCE!ntly done exactly the same i:hing with the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. Here is t.uhat Mr .. Wilson said in his budgE!t: 1 In thE! Atlantic region, local No . 5 R24 .8 ·

entrepeneurship and small and medium business development is being promoted by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. In the West. diversification of the economic base will be assisted by the western diversification office. In Northern Ontario, increased private sector activity is being assisted by the federal economic de!Velopment initiative in Northern Ontario. The government has also announced its intention to respond more effectively to the real development needs of the less prosperous outlying regions of QUE!bec. 1 So much for Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency.

It will do absolutely nothing toward relieving regional disparity because the same approach is now applied universally across the country. Why? TherE! is only one reason why. Ontario and Quebec have absolute control over what happens in this nation. They have 60 per cent of the voting power in this country and we have no effective Senate to protect the interests of the provinces. That is the major concern that I have with Meech Lake, the major concern. Because, Mr.

Speaker, while we were slowly working towards correcting it and ge!t ti ng a proper Senate, and Premiers, particularly in the Western Provinces. were making real progress towards implementation of a so--called Triple E Senate, along comes Meech Lake and Meech Lake will, I believe, end forever any prospect of effectively and properly reforming the Senate. I mu s t state at once • it does not make it impossible. It is still possible that there will be unanimity on reform of the Senate.

That is theoretically possible, but the chances of getting all 10 provinces to agree L249 March 18, 1988 Vol XL are far, far less than thE! chanCE!S of getting seven provinces hav'ing more than 50 per cent of the population to agree, which is the basic amending formula. And that is the primary dastardly deed that Meech Lake does to Newfoudland and the smaller Atlantic provinces and. for that matter. the srnaJ.ler Western provinces. Ontar'io and Quebec will forever dominatE! this country. We will never correct regional disparity as long as we proceed along those lines.

Now~ superficially, Meech Lake looks attractive, bE!Cause everybody sa'id, 1 Oh. yE~s, we w'i.ll be statesmen, we wi11 bring QUE!bE!C 'into the constitution. QuE!bec has been into the constituion from day one, all that has been 10issing is the political approbation of the legislature and government of Quebec. But the whole constitutional process is as binding on Quebec as it. is on any other province. And it is beneficia]. to QuebE!C, as it is to any other province. Mr~. SpE!akt~r, that is the rE!al probJ.ern wit .h Meech Lake.

We were slowly working toward juridicial equaJ.ity and a proper federal constitution, where we wo u 1 d havE! true f E! dE! raJ. ism, wherE! two populace provinces having 60 pE!r cent of the population cannot tell the whole country what 'is going to happen as we have at thE! moment. We WE!re developing and had deVE!loped an E!XCeJ.l ent Chart.'E!r of Rights, mobility rights i.'itnd language rights throughout the province, and this has now been jeopardized as well.

TherE! was a provision requiring equalization, or commiting the federal and provincial governments to supporting equalization of regional disparity, and what we have done with Me!ech Lake. to No. 5 R249

achieve a little bit of politicial gratification in the next year, or two, or three, is we haVE! destroyed the opportunity to do anything beneficial to this country in the long term future. And when you are talking about constitutions, you are not talking about the next general election, you are talking about the next decades and century. That is what we have to plan and provide for. The recital, Mr. Speaker, in the resolution proclaims the equality of the provinces, but the clause immediately after it denies the equality of the provinces.

Here is what it says: The Constitution of Canada shall be interpreted in a manner consistant with (b) 1 the recognition that Quebec constitutes within Canada a distinct society. 1 Now, that alone you could probably live with if it made people in Quebec more comfortable, because it does not recognize or confer upon Quebec any additional con~titutional or legal powers. It might just be a kind of a nice statement that might be beneficial in Quebec and you might as well go along with it.

But subsection 3 of the first clause says, 1 The role of the legislature and Government of Quebec to preserve and promote .the distinct identity of Quebec referred to in paragraph ( 1) (

b) is affirmed. Now, we all knotu in this House, and if we do not nobody else does, that the r·olt~ of a legislature is to makE! laws and the role of a government is to enforce and apply those laws. Well, if they had that role to make laws and enforce and apply the laws that will promote the distinct French identity of Quebec, that means they can make laws that prevent thE! fair· use of English in Quebec; they can make laws that prE!Vent the mobility of L250 March 18, 1988 Vol XL English-speaking Canadians into Quebec, or any Canadians, until thE!Y have acquired their standard in French. And that is t.urong, Mr.

Speaker. That sets out immediately to establish that none of the other provinCE!S arE! equal to Quebec. Despite the proclamation that thE! provinces are equal, it denies it clearly. ThE! Constitution is to be appliE!d differently in Quebec than it is in any other province, and for a federal system that fliE!S in {:he face of the basic principle of juridicial equality that the PrE!mier talked about, and he and I share the view that there must be juridicial equality if every province is to have its proper place in the federation . But those are not just words. They have to be rE!al.

It is no good just writing those words unless they have substance. Special status by any other name is st:i.11 special status. WhethE!r you hidE! it behind the euphemism of .distinct society or anything E!J.SE!, it is still special status, and special status for any province in a federal state is wrong in .principle and flies in the face of the basic principle of juridical equality that the Premier talks about. Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether members of this House are aware or not, but the Francophone Association in Newfoundland opposes Meech Lake.

Now, we have not provided an opportunity for peopJ.e in this Province to be heard and that is onE! of the things that I am going to ask the government to consider, delaying the vote on this Resolution until there has be!en an adequate opportunity for various interest groups in this Province to be heard, and for the real No. 5 1~250

effect of Meech Lake on this Province to be made known so that we can properly judge it. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that that is too much to ask. Here is what the Francophone Association says is wrong with the concept of recognizing Quebec as a distinct society and conferring on Quebec this additional power, or recognizing the role of the legislature and the Government of Quebec to promote that distinct society.

They say, 1 If Quebec is going to enact laws that gives French a higher priority in Quebec and diminishes English or prevents the use of English in Quebec, we are afraid that the rest of Canada is going to react and prevent French from developing and prevent the USE! of French as an official language in this country. 1 And, they are quite right. They are absolutely right. Because one of the things that usually happe!ns is if I punch you in the nose the probability is you are going to punch me back. And that is exactly what is likely to happen in this situation.

If you recognize! and accord to QUE!bec the · role and responsibility to promote and protect that distinct French society, then other provinces are going to assume the same role in English Canada. That is what they are concerned about, and they are quite right. It is understandable that it would be so, because, Mr. Speaker, in a true federal state the provinces wi 11 s e e k j uri d i cal equality anyway, even though the Constitution may not specifically provide for it, just as we are seeking juridical equality as far as the Senate is concerned.

The senate is failing to discharge its proper responsibilities, but what has been happening is that the Premiers have been seeking that role through the Constitutional L251 March 18, 1988 Vol XL conferences. They have been seeking to control the exercise of federal legislative power in that manner, and that is wrong, because provincially elected politicians should not be exercising federal legislative power anymore than federally elected politicians should be exe!rcising provincial power.

When you stop to look at what :is in that clause that recognizes that special role and ~tatus of the legislaturE! and GovE!rnrnE!nt of Quebec, you haVE! to ask yoursE~lf the question, why it is thE!re if it is not intended to be exercised? Of course it is intended to be exercised. It 'is intended to cause the law, and thE! Constitution states specifically that the Constitution is to be so interpreted as to recognize that. I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that it means that the GovernmE!nt and l:he Legislature of Quebec is clearly determined to have the Constitution interpreted in such a way that they can control and promote! within QUE!bec the USE! of French and the mobility of people. Under the Charte!r or Rights we haue mobility rights. What happens to those? Will English speaking Canadians no longer be able to go to Quebec to work unless they can meE!t a certain standard of linguistic ability in French? That :is IAJrong as a matter of princip1E!, bE!

CaUSE! our Charter of Righl:s clearly recognizes mobility rights and thE! right to move to any part of this Country. But if the! Constitution, without stating clearly that the Charter of Rights overrides all, gives that kind of power and role to the legislature and Government of Quebec, clearly our mobility rights under the Charter is affected. No other pr·ovince has those kind of rights recognized; No. 5 R2Sl

clearly it is special status. And, as a matter of principle, if the Premier believes in the juridical equality of provinces that he espouses, he cannot possibly support that. Mr. Speaker, the second

section of this Meech Lake motion provides for Senate appointments - Senators to be chosen from a list submitted by the provincial governments. 1 It is intended to be temporary 1 , it says, 1 unti 1 the reform of the Senate that is contemplated is completed. 1 But when you bear in mind that we are · requiring unanimity for reform of the Senate, such reform may never take place and this could well continue to be the permanent practice.

Now, I agree also with the Premier when he says it is not right, if the Senate is to protect the provincial interest, to have the members of the Senate chosen by the! federal government. He is quite correct when he says that, and I support him in it. But it is equally wrong to have them chosen by the provincial government. Patronage is wrong who ever practices it, or whichever government practices it. We cannot be assured of having in the Senate the people u.Jho will protect the interesl:s of the whole province if they are appointed by the government for political reasons.

There is another principle that the Premier did not recognize or treated the wrong way. Federally elected politicians, elected to discharge and exercise the powers of the federal institution, should not be exercising provincial powers. I agree with that. . But neither should provincially elected politicians be exercising L2S2 March 18, 1988 Vol XL federal powers or impacting federal institutions. should bE! direct E!lections people. on thE! Thc::~re by the The present situation is intolerable, but it should not bE! replaced with this one. It should be replaced_ with an election process.

This may well be the place to start so that, instead of appointing from lists submittE!d by the provinces, we should do as others have suggested, elect the Senators from here on in, cause an election t:o be held and elect th1;!1n directly. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: The third section, Mr. Speaker, deals with irnrnigration. Now, her·E! is another area where I take issue with what is happening. I have no problem with the federal government. entering into agreements with the various provincial goVE!rnments on an E!qual basis to provide For rnanagerne!nt: of immigration into the country.

That seems reasonably sensible. But tt is a bit hollow whE!n you stop to think about it, becauSE! as soon as you have rno b i 1 it y r :i g h l: s in the country, you cannot. possibly have an agreement that will limit thE! ability of pE!opJ.E! to move back and forth. So an immigrant cornE!S in and as soon as he is established and has a permanent visa or bE!comes a citizen, he has the right to moue anywherE! in the country hE! wants to anyway. So these immigration agreements are not of great significance in that regard. The thing that bothers me most: about it. is the provision in thE! Constitutional Accord.

It does No. 5 R2 ~>2

not show up in the motion before us, but it is part Meech Lake Accord. specifically provi