VOL. 3 No. 52 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY B, 1978 . I ., I I r l ~ -i ti ..

~1ay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1907 NH- 1 The House met at 2:00 P .~1. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. !fR. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY ~NISTERS: ~fR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Herb W. Goudie, professional engineer, Assistant Deputy Minister of Fishery Services for the Department of Fisheries. Mr. Goudie succeeds Mr. D. J. Burden, who recently resigned to enter private practice. Mr. Goudie served for many years with the Harbours and Rivers Engineering Branch of the Department of Public Works of Canada in both ~ewfoundland and Prince Edward Island.

He also 'Harked in the consulting engineering field for eight years, as local Manager of the DeLeuw Cather operation. In 1971 he joined the Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority as Chief Engineer in charge of its engineering construction programme. On reorganization of the Department of Fisheries in .l973, Mr.

Goudie was appointed to the position of Director, Engineering and Fisheries Facilities, in which position he has been responsible for the planning, organization and direction of all engineering and technical services required in the implementation of prov~•cial fisheries facilities and programmes, including both ne~• construction and maintenance. In this capacity Mr.

Goudie has been closely associated with the construction of such facilities as longliner service centres, fish handling shed facilites, fish holding facilities, baited trawl units, water supply systems, ice making facilities, fisheries access roads, and other fisheries facilities. :-ffi.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. -I ~ •' . i' l i • ~ ,f " I> • J . I I ,~ I :I ~

May 8, 1978 Tape No. 1907 NM- 2 MR. F. ~OWE: ~r. Speaker, I would like, on behalf of my colleagues, to coneratulate :·ir. Goudie, who has been appointed I believe as Assistant Deputy llinister of Facilities in the Department of Fisheries. Sir, any dealings I have had with ~!r. Goudie have shown him to be a fine gentleman. I ~ave had the greatest of co-operation with him. He is an experienced gentleman in that particular department and Sir, I would simply lL~ to say on behalf of my colleagues that we wish him the best of luck in his new appointment and every success in the years to come. ~!R.

SPEAKER: The hon. l!inister of Fisheries. ~·!R. W. CARTER: Xr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today in counjunction with the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, a major step forward in the development of the herring fishery on the North West Coast of Newfoundland and Southern Labrador. For the past three years the Department of Fisheries has had an agreement with the Canadian Saltfish Corporation to develop the herring fi~hery of that area.

Under the Inshore Fishery Development Agreement with DREE, a number of new facilities have been constructed and others upgraded to permit the processing and handling of high quality herring products. The Canadian Saltfish Corporation was asked by the Province to manage the facilities during the past three years. The Provincial Government, ~!r.

Speaker, is now entering into a new phase in the continuing development of the herring fishery on the coast with greater emphasis being placed on encouraging this development by the private sector of the industry as well as the Canadian Saltfish Corporation with the latter now operating without the benefit of any subsidy from the Province. Under the new agreement the Canadian Saltfish Corporation ~dll operation facilities at Brig Bay, Blue Cove, Castor River South and Red Bay, with facilities at Bartlett's Harbour and I .I ' '1 t,

May 8, 1978 Tape No. 1907 NM - 3 ~1R. W. CARTER: L'Anse Au Clair being made available to the private sector under a lease arr2ngement. Proposals for the leasing· and operation of these facilities will be called in the next week or ten days. The facilities under lease to the Canadian Saltfish Corporation will be managed for the Corporation by William J. Burton (Nfld.) Limited. This company is one of the largest and most reputable herring processors and importers in the United Kingdom and is one of the most important customers of herring processed and exported by the Canadian Saltfish Corporation. This Company, Mr.

Speaker, operating through a number of subsidiaries both in the U.K. and Eur~pe, has been in the herring business for over 150 years and currently produces smoked products in the U.K. for eX?ort. The Canadian Saltfish Corporation has worked with the William J. Burton (Nfld.) Limited Company for the past four years and has found them to be a very responsible company and a valued partner in its activites to date. Under the arrangement with the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, the Burton company plans this Fall to install smoking equipment to finish the product in Newfoundland. The company, Mr.

Speaker, will be processing in Newfoundland traditionally finished products for export to established European and other markets in Newfoundland herring that heretofore left the Province in a raw, unfinished state, ~nth the final processing being done in Europe. This new programme, Mr. Speaker, will provide approximately 30 - 35 jobs in the main processing plant at Brig Bay in addition to the jobs involved in the primary processing at feeder plants at Red Bay, Blue Cove and Castor River South. j f • L .. I i

day 3,1978 Tape :<o. 1908 AH-1 HR.W.CARTER: The William J. Burton (Nfld) Ltd. company plan to begin operations on June 1,1978. The new company will not be purchasing equity in the operation and all facilities will continue to be owned by the Provincial Government. Hr. Speaker, this I believe is a step forw·ard certainly in the matter of final processing of .:-lewfoundland co ; .~gi1 t fish especially in the matter of herring because,as I have pointed out in this statement,prior to the entry into the area of the Hilliam J.

Burton company practically all of the herring caugnt Dy our fishermen was exported in barrels with a very small amount being exported as butterfly fillets in a frozen state. So I look upon this as being af major importance to the fishing industry and the start of maybe furth~r secondary processing in the Province of fish caught and landed by our Newfoundland people. HR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Eagle River. ~IR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, as we welcome the news concerning some of these developments on the :abrador coast and the Northern p=t of the peni.•sula,there are certain statements that the minister made here that are worthy of co~ent.

First of all,the minister indicated , and we will take the last point first, on the smoking of the herring here_, I am very far.:ilia.r with it. ever since 1964 I have been trying-and in 1967 introduced a smokin6 kiln into this Province to try to get the :~rring into a finished product. lie indicates in his statement that it is going to be smoked L• this Province and,as I understood him~final processing will be done in Europe. You mean it will be totally packaged,smokeci arui finished totally in this :'rovince?

I welcome this kind of news because I think obviously the vast quantities of herring which we have caught in tl.e past have either gone for very low prices in the 11erring meal and obviously to get into the finished product has beet tLle way that we have been advocating for years and years that we have to get into this. I wonder, however, ~lhether the minister could elaborate whether .I ' .. ·I • I I

~' Hay 8,1978 Tape No. 1908 AH-2 HR. STRACHAN : further down the Labrador coast,such as in the Cape Charles-Square Islands area where there are large quantities of herring caught and they have been suffering ~rom a lack of barrels, a iack of facilities and lack of encouragement,! wonder whether the minister could say whether~1e ~entioned the communities there but he did not mention these communities further down the coast and I am wondering wheth~r these communities will find help and assistance from the Canadian galtfish Corporation who did not help in the past, they ceased their operation before that area.

And there has been considerable problems there. In fact many of the companies have not been paid for much of the herring that they produced last year and many fishermen are still waiting for large sums of money. I also wonder whetl1er the minister in congratulating the Saltfish Corporation here on their move could let us know whether he now agrees that the Saltfish Corporation are doing a reasonable job,because it was,I think,only last week or the week before the the minister criticized severely th~ Saltfish Corporation for some of its operations.

I wonder whether the minister has now had a change of heart in this, one week criticizing the corporation and the next week praising them up for their abilities and so on, I wonder exactly where he stands on t.1at issue? :·lR.. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. l1R. W. CARTER: I do not know if I may respond to the question,but certainly I wouid like to.

In fact 7 we are doiug the very thing in this agreement that we talked about two weeks ago in that we are now, where the private sector has demonstrated its ability to do certain things,we are now encouraging, as I pointed out in this statement, encouraging the entry into the herring fishery and other areas of the private sector. And maybe in time, who knows, maybe the Crown corporatior can be phased out entirely and the private sector can be phased in.nut this relates to herring. What I did say tYO weeks ago was that the Saltfish Corporation does in fact in our view need major" surgery, certain ,,

~lay 5 ,1978 Tape No . l90a Ali- 3 changes mus t be made . It ~us t,for example 1 rec eive more suppor t than what it bas from toe federal government , t he body tha t set it, and that maybe wha t we are doing now i n the herring end of it "can very well be expanded to be done in t he saltfish itself. NOTICES OF :10TION !·1R. SPEAKER: Hon. lltinister of Hi nes acd Enet':!Y. ~!R . PEC!.<FORD: Mr. Speake r, if I may be allowe d to on behalf of my colleague , the .iinis ter of Rehabilitation and Recreatioo,give notice t ha t I ..,ill on tomorrow 'l l ·• _, ·• :i i: !i ,,

:•ay ? , 1"78 Tape 1?'1') ask leave to introduce a bill, ".'.n J.ct To .'.!:'.end The ~:elf are Insitution!O' Licencing Act11 to ensure greater el!'p~asis on the inspection of "elfare institutions in the future.

I give notice that I Pill tomorro•,r O!'. be-..,alf of the hen. the ''inister of "~'inance give leave to intor!uce a '-i:!.J.," <m .'ct To -'·.tr.end 7he Conflic-t r)f Interest A.ct 11'171." rln 1:-ehalf of ryself I ~·Tish to frive notice " that I vill on tomorrrov ask leave to introduce a bill, .~n .~. ct To Authorize 7he Lieutenant-Governor in Council To Enter Into t.n A g:ree~:~ent '·'ith J; ritis h : ~ewfount: land Co!7oratioa Lic::!.t::.-1 .'\..Ttd :: .: ·. :ot !1sc:1ilcl And Sons Supple~ental To The AgreeMent nated 21st.

Day of '·'ay 1953 Is thereto for !lm<>n<'~-:l." iln behalf of the ;tinister of Trans portation anc1 r:ommunications"!Jl .-\ct To 'Jr!end The ::otor - ize C: :r;.ow ''eh icles /'.Ild .. U2..-:Terrain Vehicles Act,l973". For the !:inister of Consul:'.er Affairs and Enviromr.ent, ''An .\ct To Ac:end ':':"le Stature l.aw .' In Respect Of Annunities Payable Under Life Insurance Contracts 11 • I have for myself"An Act To !.rr.end Further The Governnent-British :·lewfoundland Exploration Limited Authorization Of Agreement Act 1957." On behalf of the ~ 'inister of Forestry and Agriculture, "An Act To Amen<'.

The D0g .\ct 1971i." On behalf of the l·:inister of Education,"An Act To Amend ':'he Local School Tax Act." On behalf of the ~·tinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, " .o\n Act To Amend :"he Consumer C: eporting Agenc:.es .\ct." On behalf of myself "~..n Act To hnend The :'in<>ral Act 197f." Cn behalf of the ~inister of Finance "An Act To Amend The Income Te.x Act.'' If all meirllers agree that I can do that for all cinisters. A:·!S'-'1'".:3 TO 0t'!:STIO NS l>OR. l•IT'!IC~-l ~lOTICE 1!.\S BEEN GIVE: ; !'!'. . SPI:..'I.KER: The hon. !!inister of Health. I 1: i~ ' I ~

Tape 1'?09 lT .. H. COLLINS: Yes • ~!r. Speaker, I have the answer .to question No. 52 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile.

He asks ~~hat financial assistance towards cap:! tal and operating expenses of International Grenfell Association were provided by the ~overnment during the current fiscal year~ And the answer to that is that on account of hospitals and nursing stations operating expense-s are %',?OS ,C!OO and on account of medical and other services,such as public health and nental services,$2,197,00 for a total of $l2,002,n0o : l!e also asks whether the International Gr~nfell Association requested additional funds and if so give the details of such representations and the response made by government towards the same.

The ansv7er" to that, ~'r. Speaker, is that request :<:rom Ir-A were for approximately $la 1, noo more than the amount approve-1.

T'-!e rec!uctions were made to bring requests in line with general govern~ental and cepartmental policies regarding salary scales,etc. · Question No. 2S 1 the same hon. me~er asks what was the total n=ber of illegitimate birt~s in the Province for the calendar 1977. ~t this date we cannot confirm the exact nu~ber for the simple reason that the statistics are not available to us yet but considering the registrations to date and lool~ing at the record over the past years it is estimated that the nu~er of illegimate births for 1977 will be in the order of 1,1no.

And Questior ~To. 45,in the name of the same "tlon. member,asking a statement showing the number of atte~ted suicides in ~!e~7foundland and Labrador for.:the calendar year of 1975, 1976, and 1~77. The answer to that question is not- this information is not obtainarle,not in our department an~~ay. lind Question No. 47 to asJ..: the "inister of Health to table lvhat financial contributions does the government make towards the hospital at Churchill Falls. . ·' j• r I! ., I· "; l

~·ay 8, 1978 IH - J II' • . ' . r:OLLDlS' The financial contribution by governll!ent tOHards the ":ospital at C:-.urc..'lill fall s for th_e fiscal year . pril ~st ., 1"77 co ''arch 31st . , 1~78 -;as $15':' ,non. T'1c: second p'l.rr of. the question is hoH an docto rs •,1e re on'" a at the ~ospital at Chu rc hill ~alls?And the an~er is two . T~e th_ird jlart is,how ~any urses on staff at the C!'lurchill Falls hospital? ,l.nd the answer is five. And ho11 many ot.l-ter staff I' i l; -•. ·•

May 8, 1978 Tape 1910 PK - 1 Mr. H. Collins: were employed by the hospital, and the number is five other staff. Question No. 22, in the name of the same han. member for LaP6ile; How many psychiatrists were recruited outside the Province in 1Cl7L~. , 1975, 1976, and 1977? The number is in 1974, none: in 1975, three; in 1976, one; and in 1977, one. In what provinces or countries were these psychiatrists recruited? Two c·ame from England and two from Ireland. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Naskaupi. MR GOUDIE: I ask leave, Mr.

Speaker, of the House to introduce an item which is of extreme importance to this Province, I believe. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman is asking leave to give a notice of motion? MR. GOUDIE: No, I just want to brina un this particular point, Mr. Speaker. It is in relation to a national company and its attitude toward this Province. If I have leave to bring it up, I will bring it li I up; if I do not t~en I will sit do~n. MR. w. ROWE: Tell us what it is? Who is it? MR. GOUDIE: Simpson Sears. MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible) bringing it up. MR. w. ROWE: Who? MR. GOUDIE : Simpson Seass. AN RON.

MEMBER: (Inaudibl~) bringing it up. MR. GOUDIE: Yes. MR. 1-l. ROWE: Are we going to get into a debate on it? MR. GOUDIE: Well I do not want anv debate, I am not interested in a debate, Mr. Speaker. All I wanted to do was to get leave to introduce this particular item, and then ask for a resolution of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Let me say a very brief word on this.

We all can sort of divine or guess what the hon. member has in mind there, but a number of important matters have been raised regarding national companies in Labrador on this side of the House, and we wanted to debate it, and, of course, unanimous consent has not been given or the Speaker has not ruled that the urgency of debate is necessary. We do not want to keep the hon. member from raising any matter he wants to

Hay S, 1978 Tape 1910 PK - 2 l1R. IV. ROWE : as long as >re have the unanimous concurrence of the llouse, both sides of the House, - HR. ~"EARY: To debate it. :1R. W. R01-1E: - that we can have a debate and debate the matter and make comments on it as ~1ell. We obviously cannot agree to statements being made unless we have an equal opportunity to have somethine to say on the matter and put some input into the question which is raised. l1R. ~EARY: We brought it up the other day. c·1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. :-rn.. GOUDIE: ~1r.

Speaker, if it is all right I will review it tnth the House Leader and bring in the appropriate resolution at the appropriate time. 1-!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. :.rn.. W. ROWE: Yes. The hen. member should not feel that we are tryine to keep him from making statements, Sir. :1R. GOUDIE: No. All we are looking for is certain assurances. The matter he is talking about, if is - we do not but if it is the same one we have been talking about recently in an important matter and should have full discussion in this hon. House.

If we could have the freedom of debate as >~ell, Sir, we would gladly consent to the hen. member bringing the matter in. :!R. ~AP.Y: That is right. A.'< HOi'/. MEI'BER: Why do you think my colleague brought it up today? ORAL QUESTIONS: :-!R. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . :tR. W. ROWE: Sir, I would like to direct a question to the hon •. tl1e Premier concerning the economic future of the Province.

A couple of days ago, I believe last Thursday, a very highly prestigious group, a highly respected group, The Conference Board of Canada, made some statements concerning the economic future of Ne~·7foundland. One of the statements made, Sir, was that t:1e forecast for ~leufoundland' s Gross National Product in the Coming year, taat is, the amount of goods and services produced in the Province annually, will decrease by

May 8, 1978 Tape 1910 PK - 3 Mr. W. Rowe: one percentage point in this present financial year. It decreased by a half a percentage point last year, so we have 100 per cent increase in the decrease in our Gross Provincial Product, Sir. I would like to ask the Premier if this forecast by this highly respected group, !he Conference Board of Canada,is in accord with, is in agreement with the government's own economic and financial forecast for the coming year? MR; SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, when the business of The Conference Board was brought up last year I understand, and I know the Opposition were in fact opposed to anything they had to say, but I am glad to see that they backing anything they have to say now. MR . PECXFORD: But I brought it up last year. PREMIER MOORES: But I might also say, Sir, that ,you know, you want to believe whatever it is you read.

But regarding their forecast for this year,that same group about four· to five months ago said that they had Newfoundland second to Alberta in growth this year of which they had Newfoundland down for 5 per cent, which we certainly did not agree with. This time it is the lowest or one of the lowest. My hope, Sir, it is going to be somewhere in between. But the fact is that with the - particularly the two strikes _ at Labrador City and in the mining industry in Baie Verte as well, and also with the unknown date of the uncertainity of the opening up of Labrador Linerboard mill . ,, ~ t ... !

• i May 8, 1978 Tape 1911 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES: certainly regarding the mining industry the production and the value - and it is a huge value per number of people employed - that industry without question will be less than last year when, in the main, it was strike free as far as the major producers were 'I concerned at least.

I think in the Labrador City - Wabush area once it goes down for any month or two months or whatever the case may be, it has a traumatic effect on • I the dollar value of the Gross Provincial Product in this Province, because they are by far the biggest contributor to it, whilst not the biggest employer - it is nothing like the fishery - but certainly they are the biggest contributors to the actual GPP.

The Labrador Linerboard mill, they have assumed, is going to be down for the year and that is why they had the forestry industry in the lower position than it had been last ye~r when Labrador Linerboard mill was open for a certain length of time. These two areas particularly are of significance. As I say, the mining industry whilst not the greatest employer, certainly has the greatest value of any other industry in the Province. I also would like to say that the forecast for the fishery we think, is comparatively accurate although we are hopeful it will be more optimistic than even they are saying. MR. W. N.

ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. MR , SPEAKE.R: A supplementary, the hon. the . Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: I do not know why the Premier has to get testy and personal about answers to all of these questions. It is certainly simply a request for some information from the government, from the Leader of the Government, Sir. If he wants to give up the job which he

May 8, 1978 Tape 1911 EC - 2 HR. W. N. ROWE: shows every appearance of wanting to, he can gladly go down to the Lieutenant-Governor. I am sure the gentleman to his right might want to take over or maybe somebody to his left,although he is out running his leadership campaign at the moment, Sir. Let me ask the Premier a supplementary. According to this Conference Board of Canada, Sir, it says that the construction industry in the Province will be down about 2~ per cent this year in its contribution~ as I understand it,to the Gross Provincial Product.

Does this forecast by this group of businessmen agree with the government's forecast for the coming year? -a continued decline in the value of the construction industry in 1978 - 1979? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all, just to comment on the Leader of the Opposition's introductory remarks to his question, Sir, I am not the least bit testy today. I am quite the reverse today, I think - I hope I am. MR. W. N. ROWE: You are relieved because of the questions I am asking.

PREMIER MOORES: You know, going down and resigning my job and getting someone else to take it I would say, Sir, that of all people who want to attain that under any circumstances the Leader of the Opposition is by far the most ambitious in that regard, and so he should be. MR. W. N. ROWE: No, Sir. No, sir. PREMIER MOORES: Regarding, Sir, the construction industry being down 2~ per cent - MR. NEARY: We are not powerful - PREMIER MOORES: -from where we -from where we sit, that is difficult to analyse if it is correct or not.

The new hospital construction is coming to an end this year. - i l ;j .; ! ~ l i -- ~- ( • i I l t -J I -i

~1ay 8, 1978 Tape 1911 EC - 3 PREMIER MOORES: The hospitals were great employers in the construction industry. Certainly from the figures that have been tabled in the House, the road construction and other government expenditures in other parts of the construction industry are up. The Hinds Lake development will have an impact this year, not as great as it will next year. Obviously, Gull Island, even if it gets going this year, will be comparatively minor, in fact.

It is a very difficult question to answer, Sir, in detail, but in the main, I would say it will be slightly better than has been forecast by this group. MR. W. N. ROWE: A final supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: The Premier is in such a good mood, Mr. Speaker, in case you are wondering, because he is relieved at the line of questioning I am taking today. We had a caucus decision, Sir, and we are going to concentrate on scandals every second day and positive measures every other day. I am sure the House, Sir, will be relieved to hear that. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W. N. ROWE: Well, in terms of the amount of attention that scandals deserve, Sir, we should be at it every minute of the day in the Province here, in this House MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. W. N. ROWE: -from two o'clock in the afternoon until two o'clock the following morning. Let me ask the Premier this, Sir. MR. PECI:FORD: 1988 (inaudible). Wick Collins is getting to you. MR. F. ROWE: Oh, yes~ MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir, I live in fear that one of these days I will pick up the newspaper and have Wick Collins I t F: j ., '

May 8, 1978 Tape 1911 EC - 4 KR. ll. N. ROWE : say, 'Bill Ro\le is a good fell ow.' On that date , Sir, I will tender my resignation. PREMIER MOORES : I live in terror of that. MR. W. N. ROWE: You live in terror of it. I live in terror of it as well, Sir. But, Sir, the question I am going to ask the Premier, Sir, is he does not seem to be able to make any predictions or fo r ecasts on the economic outlook of the Province. Perhaps one of the most significant indicators, namely housing, he can give us something a little firmer on.

According again to this group, Si r , who - I do not know if they are any good or not. The P-remier might be able to tell us whether he ag r ees that this group has any solid forecasting ability behind it or not - . r • . ~ ~ '! I ·I ; ' f . I .. t t r . I t l l J r

May 8, 1978 Tape 1912 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: but according to this group, Sir, the number of housing starts in 1977 stood at about half of what they were in 1976, with the number of housing starts this year going to be about similar,according to this forecast,to 1977. In other words, about half or a little over half of what they have been in the last, say, two or three years, 1976,1975 and so on. Will the Premier tell the hon. House whether he agrees with this particular forecast?

Is there any room for optimism by disagreeing with this particular forecast or would he say the forecast as to housing starts being down by about 50 per cent is a pretty reasonable accurate prediction for the economy in this particular financial year1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition once again in his introductory remarks said that I was in a good mood today. Sir, that was exactly four minutes from when he said I was in a testy mood. But once again - MR. W. ROWE: You told us you were in a good mood.

PREMIER MOORES : - he is SO per cent accurate on that one, Sir. The fact is , Sir, that I think this House should get on with the business of the House. I agree with that. When we talk about alleged scandals I will, Sir, be having something to say a little later on that, I think 1which may have some bearing on all kinds of people. But that is something we will do a little later. As the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said, Sir, there will be something later, and I will, but I will not now, you know. But the fact is, Sir, the housing starts,the federal government have not released their budget on housing yet.

That has held up not just this Province but many other provinces. I say there is a lot of uncertainity as to why not,or a lot of spectulation as to why not. We are hoping that the housing starts this year will be better than last year. The fact is vith the cost of housing across Canada, particularly in this Province with the cost of housing, it is also fairly obvious that a lot of people cannot afford to build new houses. I • I l

May 8,1978 Tape 1912 PK - 2 Premier Moores: It is something that - it is a sad crieteria in our society but it happens to be true. If the federal government can get their budget released, their housing budget,so that the various provinces can take advantage of it, we have every reason, Sir, to think that the housing starts can be better than last year. They will not be as good as the year before last, which was an exceptional year by our standards, but certainly it depends, the success of housing starts will depend to a large degree on the releasing of funds by the federal government. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I am sure the minister is aware of a fire on aboard the ferry Clara Hollett that has put that vessel out of commission. My question is to the minister.Has he done anything to get a replacement for that vessel? If not would he take action to do so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I heard about the fire on the Clara Hollett this morning on the news. •fuen I arrived in the office, I asked the people in the department to look into it and see what should be done and what could be done, and I sincerely hope they are working on it right now. What immediate steps have been taken I am not in a position to say, but I do know that the department is aware of the problem and are working on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South followed by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. NOLAN; Yes, a question for the hon. the Premier, Mr. Speaker, if I can get his attention.

Did the Premier ever recommend or discuss with the principals of Wabanex Corporation or Mr. Brian Mulroney or for that matters, 1-fr · ,Paul Demaraise. contracts for '~aritime Power Consultants, a company that is alleged to be owned by Davidson? Or did the Premier ask any of his ministers to arrange any contracts in any way with the group concerned? .!

May 8, 1978 Tape 1912 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, regarding Maritime Power Consultants, Mr. Davidson's firm, and .not only, Sir, did I not speak to Mr. Demaraise or Mr. Mulroney .- and what the President of the Iron Ore Company of Canada has got to do with Wabanex on Bell Island I am not sure, although he was I guess legal counsel at that time. MR. NEARY: Are they all - (in.<~. 1Hiihlp). PREMIER MOORES : Pardon? MR. NEARY: Mr. De~Taise,the Premier's buddy,owned- PREMIER MOORES : I said Mr. Mulroney. MR. NEARY: Mr. Mulroney is there - PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Mulroney owns it too 1 does he? Anyone else? SOME RON. MEMBERS : (Inaudible) • PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Hammond. Mr. anyone else? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES : Yes,as legal counsel, Sir, I understand. The fact is that Mr. Davidson's a famous or. <nfamous firm, ~ir., has never ever been to my knowledge, and I am sure I would know if this was the case, no one has ever contacted Mr. Demaraise or Mr. Mulroney or any legal counsel _nr anyone elsf! to "11!l"""t th».t Mr.

Davidson, Sir, would be responsible for any development or any consultant contract for the Wabanex oil storage on Bell Island, Sir, for the simple reason that there is an environmental risk. It is something that has to be studied, and Mr. Davidson being· attached to it would be probably the biggest environment risk of all. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. . ·'

~.ay 8, 1978 Tape ~o. 1913 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: I wonder in the same line, if I may, I believe the Premier last week or in the last felv days made some reference to a study on this Grimbsy thing. I am sure he knows what I am talking about. Has the Premier secured the information for the House of who ap.proved the study on a fishing port for ~lewfoundland pat~erned after the so-called Grimbsy pattern? ~m. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRDITER HOOP-ES : I do not know where the hon. member was, Hr.

Speaker, I do not know if he pays attention in Question Period, I jo not know if he hears the Leader of the Opposition's questions, The fact is, Sir, I answered that on Friday. :1R. NOLAN: A supplementary, ~fr. Speaker. 11R. SPEA.'<ER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: If that is so perhaps for those of us who are less informed maybe than the hon. Leader of the Opposition, he will provide us with the answer now as a matter of courtesy to the House. :-!R. SPEAKER: Ih~ hon. the Premier. PRIDITER :'100RES : I answered it then, ~:r. Speaker, and I am sure the hon. member can read.

Yes, he can read, Sir, and if not he should ask the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize the hon. gentleman for LaPoile next. XR. NEARY: Sir, I yield to my hen. colleague. MR. SPEAKER : Well the hon. gentleman for Trinity - Bay de Verde, followed by the hon. member for Terra Nova. :'1R. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hen. the Premier.

Sir, in view of the fact that I am sick and tired of driving constituency delegations all over the city to the various government departments that are scattered in the city, has the government any intention or plans to build a new government building, · ' ., I '· r

May 8, 1978 Tape No. 1913 m~ - 2 MR. F. ROWE: or an extension to the Confederation Building? !!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PREMIER' !·mORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I am very sorry the hen. member is sick and tired. Also, Sir, there is no immediate plans right now to build an extension to the building. No. ~lR. F. ROWZ: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. ~- F. ROWE: In other 1vords, Sir, what the Premier is saying is that no arrangement has been made with anyone at all to provide for a new government building or an extension to the Confederation Building.

Is that correct? PREl!IER ~mORES : I think that is what I said, Mr. Speaker, That is what I meant to say, yes. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. F. ROWE: Would the Premier mind answering the question? Did the Premier think he said it or did he say it, Sir? PREMIER mORES: Both. MR. F. ROWE: Bot)1. SOME RON. !1ID!BERS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. I am not ~ure who asked for a supplementary. The han. gentleman for LaPoile, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker.

Is the Premier saying in answer to my han. friend that there is no deal with Atlantic Place to rent office space and there is no deal with anybody else to put up a new building or to put an extension on Confederation Building, is the Premier saying no to that question? ~- SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : lfr. Speaker, first of all the han. member asked if there was a deal with Atlantic Place as a supplementary to the member who asked if there was an extension planned for the building. MR. F. ROWE: Or a building. P~ITER MOORES: Nm.;, Sir, Atlantic Place is certainly not an ..

H II - t ' ., r ~ • • t ._f, f . l f. ;; _I i

~1ay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1913 NM- 3 PREMIER ~OORES : extension to the building. And, Sir, it is also true to say that there is no agreement with Atlantic Place to rent offices at this time. I am not saying there \rlll not be, there could be, there may be, or as my predecessor ~auld say.- he would have said that. Sir, havinR said that, there is no arrangement to rent space with Atlantic Place. There is no agreement or understanding to have an ~~tension to this buildin2, I think, Sir, both those statements are simple enough for the hen. members to absorb. ~IR. NEARY: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. ~1R.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for La.Poile. ~!R. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate if the government proposes, as the hen. the Premier I believe indicated a year or so ago, to put up a new building with a new House of Assembly? Is there any arrangement to do that? HR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. P.::l.E!-1IER :TOOP..ES: Mr. Speaker, I would be the first to say that there is a need for office space. At the present time I think there are some twenty-five or thirty locations scattered all around this city with various parts of government departments in these various locations.

There is no question, Sir, but a consolidation of space is desirable. It has to be desirable under the best terms to the people of the Province 1 in other words in cost, and this is what basically is being looked at. There are two suggestions regarding the House of Assembly. One is to - ~~ell other than where we are now, one is to have it done in the manner in which a House of Assembly should be, which I think all members would agree, should be a place which is of the highest order of any government building in the Province. It could be located in any new extension,! suppose.

But, Sir, ~~hat has been given a lot of consideration, and ~~hat I think should be given a lot of consideration to is that the old Colonial I • ...

~lay a, l97e Tape No. 1913 ~ - 4 PREX!ER ~!OORES : Buildin2, wi th the ptoper modifications, and with the proper additions for members' offices, ~d a pro~er House of Assembly , with the tradition c f that particular building and if it can ~e done for a reasonable amount of money, what I would personally like to see, Sir , is to see t~at building done in such a manner as it would be the Legislative Chamber and the place fo r parliament ir. this Province. ~. NEARY: One further supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. ~ber for LaPoile.

Is t he Premier indicating that :he re is no arran 3ement, or is he indica ting that there is an arrangement to put up a new building for offic e space? I am not quite clear. ~e P:::e:nier has me confused. Will the Premier just tell ce yes or no: Is there an arrangement or an agreement to put up a new building, that is all . x:R. SPEAKER: The hon . Premier.

May 8, 1978, Tape 1914, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I have already answered once. Maybe if one of the Pages could come I could spell it for the han. member. It is just n-o, Sir. He can get a translation from his colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will hear one final supplementary. The hon. member for Conception Bay South 1• and then I inidcated I would recognize the han. member for Terra Nova. MR. NOLAN: Last year in the House of Assembly, and the year previous really, and again this year I asked the han.

Premier if he would consider setting up a committee of the House of Assembly to look into the possibility of examining the extension to the Confederation Building and he in Hansard.indicated that it seemed to be a good idea in view of the fuss that arose previously on this matter - is the spelling bee over 1 Mr. Speaker? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I think it is against the rules of the House for people to walk back and forth while an hon. gentleman is addressing the Chair. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: Meantime, back to the Premier.

Again we get back to the committee of the House on the extension to this building which he addressed himself to on two previous occasions which is evidenced in the Hansard. Again I ask the Premier, will he set up a committee of the House as he indicated he might do a year or so ago, and if so when will he do it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : The problem has been, Mr. Speaker, not the committee of the House 1 which basically I think is a good idea - I also think the government could make that decision on its own - I think the problem, Sir, .i ' l ; [ if , ~ j'

May 8, 1978, Tape 1914, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: is one of finances, And as most hon. members know, this year and last year there has only been so much money for this sort of thing. That being the case that is really the problem as opposed to procedure. If we had the finances to be able to go ahead, I would suggest that this would have been done before and would have been the method amongst others that we would have gone. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. LUSH: A question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

According to the latest developments it would appear that the striking workers at Labrador City have reached an agreement on all items in their dispute with the Iron Ore Company of Canada but I understand that the agreeme~t has not been sUbmitted to the workers for a vote. I wonder if the minister could inform the House as to whose decision was this and why the agreement, why the package has not been submitted to the workers for a vote? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I was surprised by the headlines in The Daily News this morning.

I have talked to my conciliation officer who returned from Sept. Iles over the weekend. As I indicated before a memorandum of agreement is always subject to ratification by the membership. As I understand it, the monetary package has not been agreed to and so therefore, the situation is not - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. ROUSSEAU: You know, that could well be the case. I do not know if the figures quoted there are accurate or not and I do not know what is in the union's . j · ..

May 8, 1978, Tape 1914, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: and the company's minds. All I can do is report what my conciliation officer tells me. And while there is money on the table, I think there was a break-off in talks, or a recess Sunday, I guess, and today and I presume they will be starting up again in in the next day or two. But there is no settlement,as I understand it, on the wage issue. MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the news item to which the hon. minister refers also says the reason why the package was not put to a vote was because the steel workers' membership in Sept Iles and Schefferville did not agree to the settlement. Does this mean that if these workers in Sept Iles and in Schefferville do not agree that the package will not be taken.to the voters? Because my understanding is that the majority of the workers were not Labrador City. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, do not get me wrong.

That story may well be correct in another day, I another week, another month, I do not know that. I am . ~ " l. just saying that at this point in time it is ahead of itself. There may be changes in the monetary package, . the union may not accept what is offered, the company may revoke the offer, anything could happen. But the situation • l I ' is that it could well be the case as outlined in the paper , I do not know that. But the package that is still being discussed at Labrador City and Wabush is the monetary package.

I understand from my conciliation officer that there are still some outstanding items of a . , technical nature at both Schefferville and Sept Iles and as the member obviously knows, that even if there is a

May 8, 1978, Tape 1914, Page 4 - ·- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: settlement in Labrador City and Wabush but there is no settlement in Sept Iles, or if the railway does not settle there is not much that will be able to be done in Labrador City - Wabush. •. I I 'I I

ilay o , l97G Tape iio. 191.3 ru~-1 ~ JR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The bon. member for Terra itova. i·IR. LUSH: In view of the fact, :rr. Speaker, that the major item of dispute in this strike was related to occupational health and safety,can the minister indicate what time we are going to get tilat legislation? Is that going to be ·presented to the House in the next couple of days? Is it already presented? What is the situation? ~iR. SPEAKER: The hon. J;;inister. ::R. ROUSSEAU: The bill was distributed about ten minutes ago.

I have talked tc my colleague and I would like to give the proper time because it has just been distributed now and I would like to do it maybe in principle later today,if the member is ready, or tomorrow or whenever in princip!e and then ;illld clause by clause until later on. MR. SPEA..'<ER: I indicated that I would recognize the hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans next. M:"-. FLIGHT : l'Ir. Speaker, my question is to the Hinister of Health lvho is just about to take his seat.

Would the minister confirm or give the House details on 1as we understand,the rumour that in testing the sprinkler system in the Health Sciences Complex last week there was a malfunction or there was some trouble and extensive damage was done to the walls as a result of rusty water being sprayed all over the Health Sciences Complex? Would the minister confirm if that is right and ~ould he give the House the extent of :he damage, the value of the cost of repairing the damage? ~fR. SPEAKER: lion. dinister of Health. HR. H. COLLINS: Hr.

Speal;;er, I will certainly undertake to take the matter up with the General Hospital Corporation and see what information I can get. I will gladly pass it &long to the hon. member when I get it. ~·!R. FLIG1IT : A supplementary. :1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. i u l

liay 8, 1973 Tape No. 1915 AH-2 i!R. FLIGHT : ~ould the minister also while he is getting the information to the first question also get the inforDation and advise the House as to who will bear the cost of any repairs as a result of those damages? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: My question was for the l-!inister of Justice but he is absent so I will address this question to the :·linister of -·- Municipal Affairs.since he knows a little bit about the business. In Labrador West and Labrador City there is an affair called the Carolgate Affair, they call it locally.

I wonder whether the minister could indicate if the books seized in October 1976 and the books of the town council and of companies which were seized in 1976 and investigated by the RCMP and passed on to the Hinister of Justice, whether any decision has been come to relating to charges being laid, or whether the books which have never been returned to the town council or to the companies, whether they will be returned to them and whether the people who have been maligned in this affair by no charges being laid for ov7r a year and a half or almost two years, ;1ilether there will be some action taken in the very near future; to ri~ht what seems to be a very bad wrong in this situation lfR.

SPEAKER: Han. }!inister of r!unicipal Affairs. .. r: cffi..DINN: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea when the police ij ~ investigation will finish nor do I know when the books will be returned, i I I hope they will be returned soon. I have been talking to and calling ! the :linister of Justice on a periodic basis just to find out what the story is on it.

To my knowledge the complete investigation is on finished, I do not know whether charges will be laid or not but until such time as it is finished and the police decide 'mat they should do with the evidence or the books of these companies =d the tmm, I just do not know v;-.at the si::uatiO .l is. :!R. STRACHAN: A suppleruentary. :rn.. SPEA:(E;.\.: A supplementary.

i·lay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1915 AH- 3 irR. STRACHlll{: Could the miilister indicate whether t:•e meeting with :1r. Brian ~Iulroney or others, with ~1r. Hickman or others from Labrad?r City in which town engineer Tom Keough was finally suspended in agreeillent with the minister, to be finally suspended from his position and he is now taking the town council to court on the basis that Charges have never been laid up to this time and he is charging defamatioil of ci1aracter.

Could the minister indicate whether he did have anything to do with this decision to suspend someone in view of the fact that he has just said and just stated that no decision has been mad~ concerning investigation and concerning charges and no charges have been laid, yet he has assisted IOC to suspend a city engineer who is now ~lamed for the situation. }JR. i)INN: Hr.

Speaker, with respect to my assisting IOC or anyone else,I may have acted as a messenger for the Department of Justice wlm said that whilst they are investigation allegations with respect to the town and ti1e function of the· town and tl1e financial administration of the town,that the manager should be dismissed for that period of time until the investigation is complete;I may have acted as a messenger but outside of that no officila function at all. ::R. STRACHA.."< : A supplementary, Mr. SpeakEr. ;.m.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary and then t he hon. gentleman for MR.

STRACHAN: In his position as messenger then, and seeing the minister is a messenger rather than a pol~cy maker. could the minister indicate whether it is normal to keep someone on the payroll of a town council for a year and a half, a year and nine months and then, without charges being laid,as a messenger,decide to suspend or layoff that -. i member against whom char6es have not been made by the ROlF or by .., the Department of Justice! What the minister is sayir. g is two different things. i

::ay 2, 1nn ':ape 1~1" The raan is now charging defamation of character in a court case cor.~ng up this Thursday against the to~n council,and the minister has recommeded his disuissal yet he has said that he 'is not aware of any charges :.avi."l.g '.Jeing laid or if there ,,ill be charges laid. ::R. SFE.:~YJ:R: The han. ~·inister :runicpal Affairs and Housing. ::r.. J. T)I:~: Absolutely, !•cr. Speaker, I•That '>Te have our allegations of I·Trongdoing and the police are investigating that.

In ~ opinion and in the opinion of the Department of Justice,and wisely so,a person is innocent until proven guilty 1so he is temporarily out of a job =til he is guilty of such allegations as are before us. So ae is innocent. Order, please! The manager is innocent until proven guilty and he is being paid whilst the police investigation is going on and if there are charges - !IT'".. S ... ~TEA.? .. Y: ·~ • • J,\ .• :·J\. J. 'JI?'!:: fired on the 1st. of April - He was fired on the 1st. of April. Order, please! Hell 1 I was not aware that he lvas The han. !(entleman should be aware of it. :'!R. J.

DI:~;; -but he was,as I understood it and if he was fired he was fired he was fired by somebody other than I. But as I unders~ood it he was relieved of duty until the investigation I•Tas completed. I:" he I·Tas fired and I would assume that he was fired for a reason for cause and they s[•ould shm.; cause. !·::" .. SPEAKEI'.: I have indicated that I IYould recognize the han. member for LaFoile next. Before the hon. gentleman asks his question ,I would like to 1velcome on behalf of ~en. me~bers to the House of Assemoly twenty-four grade ,; f- i: .I i· b ! '·

~:ay S, 1978 Tape 1916 DH - 2 .! five students from Holy r.ross School. in St. Johr.' s accompanied by their teacher,Hr. Slaney. I know han. ·members join me in welcoming them. Hear, hear! ~!R. SPfAimP.: The han. member for LaPoile. :!R. S. NEARY: Is the han. the Premier coming back in ~is seat anymore today, Sir, to answer questions? tffi. lTRPTIY: ~o, he c~~ot be here a:l ·I the time. ~· !R. S.

NEARY: While I am waiting for · the han. the Pretrier to come back' T ~.rill put the question to the han. ~<inister of ~lines and Energy and if the han. gentleman cannot 2!1SHer it then perhaps waybe the anti-Shaheen spokesman can answer it, the ltinister of Transportation and Communications. '·lhat about the First Arabian Corporation? We are hearing rumours that they have made a~proposal to government or to the receivers. Have they been in the Province to take a look at the oil refinery? Is there any proposal now on the table from the ~irst ~1abian Corporation: !1R. SPEA'<ER: The han. minister. :m..

PEC'K!'0'1.D: To my l:nmded g:e, !'r. Speaker, there is no such proposal from the first Ir;\nian Corporation. ".R. S. ~:E.4.RY: A supplementary, ~·r. Speaker. ~lR. SPEAKRR: A supplementary. !!!'. • S • !TEARY : In other ~~ords ,I can assume from ~·rhat the han. gentleman <'aid that the government have not prorosed the First Arabian Corporation that they would pick up the tab for any damages resultinp; from t'leir ta!~ing over tr.e oil refinery as a result of the advertisement that appeared in the paper t~e other day from the Sh~heen group? ~q> • SPF." ::EP: ~e ~on. mi~ister.

~-fay 8, 19 78 ~bsolut~ly not~ "lo.·fr. ~nea.l':er, there is no such co~tt~nt ~y govern~ent. OFDF.RS OF THE DAY On motion that t:1e l:Iouse resolve itself into Committee of the 1-ihole, l'r. Speaker left t:1e Chair. Order, please! Bill ~Io. S,section 33. The han. member for Eagle r~ver. c :R. I. STRACiW: : : lr.

Chairman , ~•e were dis- cussing I t:1ink on ::l'riday the forfeiture of mineral holding should it be so nzcz.ssary and I was asking the mi::J.ister, I think, at "that time the situation conce:rnin:<; in particular Reid ~1ewfotmdland, and I wonder would the minister respond again to the situation there with Reid :lewfoundland. Are there negotiations, have they come to fruition, 1lill there be payment to Reid clewi!oundland since it is important in t!Jis matter? Will there be payment to ~eid Newfoundland for the large tracts of land,large parts of this Province which they own by deed?

Are there going to be payments, negotiations? Anr: if not, . then what is there1 Is there any agreements being made with them? Has there been any discussion 1rlth them? Have they come to the minister-and Ciscussed the situation concerni~g the introduction of this bill and the carrying out of this bill,because obviously any colilpany such as Reid :lewfoundland .. f f . ! : ; ., .; ~~ I~ ·i , • I

May 8, 1978 Tape 1917 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: with large concessions would obviously be very concerned about the introduction of this bill, I am wondering exactly the state of affairs or whether we are going to have to wait and see what occurs down the road? I wonder if the minister could inform us of the exact situation with Reid Newfoundland because it is an important matter and it may be, of course, a very important matter concerning the precedents it may set with other companies down the road and the regaining of land which companies hold or the encouragement to use land or explore land?

And I understand full well that he talked here only of mineral rights ~that obviously we are talking in the Reid Newfoundland situation that we cannot get back under.this bill our water rights or our forest rights- but we are talking only of mineral rights. But obviously the case is very important since it is a precedent in regaining the mineral rights on that tract of land, and other bills of a similar nature could be brought into play on this situation.

Are there any negotiations for the return of the mineral rights from Reid Newfoundland to this Province, and exactly what position are we in vis-a-vis this bill? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Young) The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, we have spoken over the last several months,as I indicated on last day, on F~iday, we have been taking to the Reid people. There has been no settlement or no agreement or no undertaking by either side, and hence, when this bill comes into force it will apply, of course, to the Reid people.

Now you do not necessarily set a precedent, if, in fact, down the road we . I ' ~ ~ I ~

May 8, 1978 Tape 1917 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: do have an agreement with Reid· Newfoundland, because most of th~other larger holders of mineral rights have only mineral rights,

whereas with Reid you are talking about a different situation where they have rights to everything including, as they think, the wildlife and therefore establish their price accordingly, so you do not necessarily set a precedent, albeit it would not be the right thing to do. If it is the right thing to do in Reid you might have other companies coming in looking for similar kinds of circumstances. Dut in the Reid case they are not out to explore for minerals. They got accidentally almost, or incidentally in any case, back decades ago, all the rights to the land,

whereas the rest of the companies who are applicable under ~his Act ~re eager to explore many parts of their holdings. The fact that they are not willing to explore it to the extent that we would like it is the reason why the bill is in in the first instance. So to answer the hon. member's question as specifically as I can, there still could be an agreement with Reid. I do not know. As of this moment, and I met with some of the Reid people only about two weeks ago, there is no agreement, and an agreement does not seem that likely to me in the short term.

But I cannot, of course, eliminate that sometime down the road there might be an agreement between the Government of Newfoundland and the Reid people as it relates to their mineral rights. At this moment there is not. And they will have to abide by the terms and conditions set down under this new Act. And that is what that is right now. And until such time as government is able to establish an agreement with Reid, they will have to live under the terms and conditions of this Act and pay tax accordingly if, in fact, they do not themselves or with I - I . i I j ! i .I I I .I I I

May 8, 1978 Tape 1917 EC - 3 .. I MR. PECKFORD: some other company spend the sufficient amount of money to cover the amount of tax that would normally apply under the Act. But that is where it is, and I agree with the han. member that they do have some fairly large holdings, and not only that, but from a mineral point of view some very interesting holdings that many companies would like to get involved with.

Over the years the Reid Company have been involved with companies and individuals as it relates to the logs or the pulpwood on some of their land, but they have not been all that active as it relates to minerals. So perhaps this just might stimulate them or spur them or motivate them to enter into some agreements I' with some either small mineral companie~ or large ones to !, I do some exploration on some of those Reid lots so we can get something going there. But I cannot rule out the possibility of an agreement down the road.

There is none now -no commitment, undertaking on anybody's part and it would see~ · some time before there will be any such agreement in my view as I read it from my meetings with them. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Young) The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Could the minister indicate exactly what his relationship has been with companies? The companies have come to the minister on the introduction of this bill has been in front of us now for what? Last year there was discussion on it MR. PECKFORD: Yes, last year, and then I held off to give them more opportunity. MR.

STRACHAN: that is right, give them more time because they were coming back, they wanted more information, they wanted to discuss it; there may have been some ~ I

Hay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1918 NH - 1 MR.. STRACHAN: small changes, there had to be some small changes from a point of view of the Department of Justice and so on. MR. PECKFORD: Right. MR.

STRACHAN: Could the minister indicate to us, not only in the Reid Ne~~foundland situation but other companies but well because Reid Newfoundland could quite rightly say that, "Here we are with a deed and a title which is legal in the law of this Province and here you are with a bill which in essence is whittling away our title." There are many other companies obviously which can do the same, and of course the reply is, '~at we are trying to do in this case here is not to forfeit lands; our idea obviously is to stimulate exploration of these lands~ And to Reid Ne~~foundland or anyone else there is an obvious way out of this .situation and that is to, as you say, co-venture systems or joint venture systems with other people and to develop the minerals because there are some interesting holdings.

Could ·the minister indicate to us what the situation is vis-a-vis the ather com~anies, ather companies' statements and how they regard it because I understand that some of the companies are nat too happy with tlus bill. I would venture to guess most of the comp~~ies are not too happy with this bill· But many of the companies cannot be too happy with this bill, especially companies who are sitting on land who have no ongoing exploration. So exactly ~•hat is the situation with them? Are we in an uncomfortable situation or position with them?

Has there been any changes made in the last year to the bill because of their discussions with the minister and what they forewarded to the minister? Exactly what did the situation concern? The forfeiture clause of course is the most important clause of all }!R. PECKFORD: Right. Right. HR. STRACHAN: - in this case here. I l . t . ' II .; . :l

:lay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1918 N}j- 2 i1R. PECKFORD: ~1r. Chairman, as t!J.e hon. member has indicated, there are companies around who 1vere not very happy with this bill when it came in in draft form, when it was sent to them. And I guess there are some still around who are not very happy. Reid Newfoundland would be one of them. L.H. and E. were never very happy, were not happy a couple of months ago, and I do not suppose they are happy now, But I did sit down with them again when I was in Toronto on business doing with St.

Lawrence and I took the opportunity to go meet with some of the principles in Labrador !1ining and Exploration Company and once again review the ·-whole thing with them. And they were very unhappy. There is correspondence on file from Brinco back a number of years ago where they expressed a fair amount of opposition to it but they have not in the last year,for example, The Brinco group have not in the last year come forward again and reiterated their points or even ongoing negotiations that I have had with Mr. Delaporte, as the hon. member knows, and other people ir-- you k.~ow Dr.

Grimbly and other people in the Brinco organization have not even mentioned it. So I think for the most part, even the Price people, the Brinco people, not so much Labrador mining because they have still been fairly negative towards it, but everybody else seems to more or less have reluctantly accepted the inevitable, that it is going to come and that they can live ~vith it. Then my final action before this act was brought before the House again this session was to, at the recent mining convention here in St.

John's, that I once again asked all the mining interests, and they -.1ere all present, to before the act was introduced into the House this Spring, that I would give them a final opportunity to present their vietiTS on it, anybody wanted to further make the arguments .. t ,­.,

May 8, 1978 Tape No. 1918 ~- 3 MR. PECKFORD: that they were making earlier or new arguments or whatever, and I had nothing, no negative response at all from that meeting. They were all positive. I had many, many ccrcpanies come to me asking and requesting and really imploring me to ensure that the act ~~as brought in in this session, that it was a good piece of legislation overall, that it was going to spur exploration.

So all I got was positive back from it, to go ahead ~nth it, even from the larger companies like Noranda, which had no concession agreements and would like to get in on some of the Price property and some of the Brinco property and they are eager to see some additional lands come available because they have a pretty large stake in this Province, Noranda does. They spend a lot of money here each year in exploration.

So if anything it has been overall positive by the companies 'vho are directly e~fected, except for one or two,and very positive for those who may~be effected do~ the road in the sense of getting at new property. So overall it ~as been extremely· positive and I was delighted to see that most of them now take that attitude. I suppose my final comment will simply be, it was much easier dealing with the ~lineral Impost Bill and having it sold than it has been with the oil and gas regulations, and yet they are coming along,too. HR.

STRACHA."l: One last ooint here; obviously it is under this clause here that any future court cases will rest, the arg~ent and court cases; does the minister see by bringing in this bill that there may be in the future, maybe the near fut~re, any court '! · I 1. I I ! :( n

May 8, 1978, Tape 1919, Page 1 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: case resulting out of this bill because, obviously, companies that have holdings, and large holdings,see this as an assault on their holdings, especially the couple that he mentioned there, for instance, who may feel this way, that their rights have been whittled and for that they are receiving no compensation. That is in essence what they are asking for, compensation or payment for giving up their rights. Of course, that is in

section 34, the no compensation ruling. · MR. PECKFORD : Right. MR. STRACHAN: Could the minister indicate to us whether he feels that the superality of this bill will be maintained and does he envisage court battles over this

section of forfeiture of lands or mineral rights under this

section here? MR. PECKFORD: From our talks with the companies, Mr. Chairman, we do not foresee any court cases. I think the only one that is remotely possible would be in the Reid case, but we do not foresee it anywhere else. In that case we think it is a remote possibility that they might attempt court action. We are assured by people in the Department of Justice and other people in the field that the provisions outlined in the act cover any court case that might be brought against us by individual companies. But the only one that we foresee 1 and it is remotely possible, would be the Reid Newfoundland people.

The other companies have never ever indicated that and to my knowledge will not take court action as a result of the act, so we feel fairly confident on that score. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask I f 1 . . . : i ·l ri t ,,

May 8, 1978, Tape 1919, Page 2 -- apb MR.

FLIGHT: the minister - it may be a very simplistic thing to ask, but assuming we have one of the multinationals such as price (Nfld.), Brinex, Brinco, Asarco who are sitting on holdings in the Province and they decide they are quite happy to pay the tax as imposed, and in lieu of paying that tax show no great desire to explore to the extent that we would need exploration to determine whether or not there are deposits in the areas, or again, they work and they find a deposit, they uncover a deposit the extent of which is not necessarily known unless there was massive exploration but they decide that they will put off further exploration till a later date, that type of thing, what will the minister's attitude be?

Will he be happy or will the government be happy with the fact that they are paying the tax and that is it, who cares? Or will at some point they say, We are sorry, it is more advantageous to us to have those concessions explored? MR. PECKFORD: I think our approach would be, Mr. Chairman, that in the unlikely event some company came upon a fairly large ore deposit which was commercial and they were going to try to sit on it or just leave it there and pay the tax, I think government would view that very dimly, and I am sure that action would be taken to ensure that they brought it on.

It is very unlikely that somebody in the mineral industry, who is out to make money on minerals would suddenly reverse itself and say, No, I do not want to make money on minerals and I will leave that in the ground. Now the hon. member no doubt is getting at a sort of an international or multinational corporation who for some reason that we perhaps cannot conceive of right now would want to keep some commercial deposit in the ground because of something · else somewhere else. In that unlikely event I am sure we would have to ~ . ; ··- II \' i. ~ .. t ..

.. May 8, 1978, Tape 1919, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: bring in amendments to increase the tax or to do something to push that company to bring into production what we know to be a commercial ore deposit. And I think that is the way you go. I do not think you put in anticipatory legislation necessarily, because it is an unlikely occurrence in any event and an unusual occurrence. But if it did occur I am sure this government would not be hesitant in taking the kind of action that was needed to make sure that that ore deposit got into production, I am positive of it, and no doubt any other government. MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, just a point of clarification. Another event that I can foresee that the minister knows of, is particularly in the base metal markets. The markets are either worse or as bad as they have been for the past thirty years - it.is still possible to make money in the mining industry even with the markets as bad as they are in the base metals - so what I am saying is, if a company right now has uncovered a deposit of copper, lead or zinc - MR. PECKFORD: Right. MR.

FLIGHT: - they know that it may not be to their advantage, and they do not need it in order to keep the company going, it may not be to their advantage to mine that, to do further exploration work or get into cost of development because they know they will make twice as much money, or they will anticipate that five years or ten years down the road the markets will pick up and then they will come in and mine it.

But what I am asking is what assurances do we have to protect ourselves from the position of the companies calling the shots that they mine when they want to mine and not when it is probably more advantageous to us. MR. PECKFORD : The only thing :I It ~ I! 1: " ;

May 8, 1978 Tape 1920 EC - 1 MR. PECKFORD: is that our own department monitors the situation and we know of any ore deposits that are available. I can say now, Mr. Chairman, to put the bon. member's mind at rest, there is no ore deposit in Newfoundland discovered known by the government that is not in production and is commercial. HR. FLIGHT: Say the c,ompanies. MR. PECKFORD: No, say the government. We know, for example, that the Tulk-Skinner property right now, given the grade and given the tonnage,that it would lose money. MR. FLIGHT: Given the market. MR.

PECKFORD: Obviously, because of the markets, and because of the price of copper. And, you know, our marketing of the commodity prices exchange leads us to believe, and people in the business lead us to believe that it is going to be a while before copper really regains any kind of high price like it had in the 1960's for quite some time. For example, let us take the uranium deposit now in Kitts-Michelin - the market situation, the kind of tonnage there - the Kitts property has small tonnage, 300,000 or 400,000 tons at the most, very high grade - Michelin, very low grade uranium, but high tonnage.

And because they are separate and try to mix together it is - you know, Brinco is still looking at it again and will spend a lot of money on it again this year trying to devise ways and means of bringing that whole thing onstream to be environmentally safe and yet pr~vide jobs and to make a few dollars at it. But that is not altogether clear. That is the only one right now that is close to being a mine, a deposit that anybody knows about. There are no others. The tungsten deposit in Grey River is too small. I • ' L ·~

May 8, 1978 Tape 1920 EC - 2 MR. PECKFORD: There is silica down near LaScie which is too s~all, there is copper all around Green Bay, there is copper in Crescent Lake down near Robert's Arm in ~y constituency, there is copper on Pilley's Island, all kinds of it, millions and millions of tons of it, but it is very low grade, just below 1 per cent and you just cannot bring it on; you would have to tear half a cliff away to get a few tons.

But I think the only thing I could tell the hon. gentleman is that I think the staff in the ~ines branch of the Department of Mines and Energy are of a suffi~ient quality now and the kind of information that we demand that the companies give us through the Mineral Act that we can ascertain very quickly whether a deposit is commercial For exa~ple, what we did in the Kitts-Michelin case is a really good example of it.

When we saw that thing, as extensive as it was, with the kind of information that Brinco had to give us, we did not even take our own word for it of just how much the tonnage was; we went out and got a consultant and put him to work on it to bring in a report just to counteract or compliment or whatever the information that our own people in the field, our own geologists, said. So we have a real grip on that as we do with the Skinner and Tulk properties.

But I appreciate the fear that the hon. member has and recognize that at any time in the future that government can identify that a mineral deposit is commercial. I think the responsibility lies upon government to insist on the companies - in the first instance in co-operation with the companies - to get it into production right away and if they fail this Rouse is going to have to deal with it through legislation. I agree with him. I : ;I l . E ~ I

May 8, 1978 Tape 1920 EC - 3 MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Young) The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: My colleague here must therefore agree that the one weakness in the bill is that valuable small holdings can be sat on for a considerable period of · .. time and that someone can play the speculative market, they can play the futureSmarket on that valuable small holding and obtain,therefore, far more in capital gains than they would ever have to pay in an impost bill such as this here.

That is what I see is the only real problem with this bill here, and that is why I was talking the other day of some kind of sliding scale or something like this. .• Could the minister indicate whether if this does occur or there is evidence of people playing the markets, for instance, and transferring ownership and selling ownership andshares and so on, whether the government would be prepared, therefore, to move in, because someone could sit, obviously, for ten years and say, Well, the market is economical now but it is going to be more economical in ten years time - who knows what the situation is going to be? - and give the government the reasons why they are not developing it, Meanwhile they have 14,000 acres which produce $3,000 per year in impost tax and they could say, 'We are prepared to pay $3,000 a year in order to play the speculative market, the futur~market.

And I wonder whether the minister can indicate to us whether there are any plans at the moment to bring into this bill or would it occur, something in this nature,which will prevent such a situation occurring, because obviously it would be very difficult f .

May 8, 1978 Tape 1921 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: for the minister or the government to dictate to a company that it is commerical now, you must move now. Because, for instance, in uranium it may be commerical now, but if you wait four or five years it may be more commerical, and more VP. lu;;~. !'-J.e. One of the things that I am always concerned about in uranium is that,as I have seen indicated 1 that the uranium may be taken out from here and refined in a primary stage in a form of vellow cake.

But I am concerned about other countries stockpiling Canadian uranium because of future energy demands and energy needs for them , when it seems to me in many cases such uranium may be better left in the ground in this Province, for instance, or for the use of this Province whoever needed that kind of situation, either not maybe for energy, but certainly for other uses later down the road as technology develops.

And I think it is a very serious situation because there are two contradictory arguments there, one to push for commerical exploration and exploitation of the resource which this bill ~s aiming to do, and companies can find ways around itj another one is to decide that possibly i t is best for us to leave it remaining there rather than allow it to be stockpiled j_n many countries, I especially refer to West Germany here,who are stockpil1no in vast-quantities of uranium as I understand and other countries as well. And the uranium market is quite a funny and tricky market.

I just finished reading about a uranium ship which disappeared by Israel takeover and so on, and the whole situation . in Australia. And I am wondering whether the minister could indicate specifically how he intends to tackle this situation because I see it developing a number of issues.

For instance, the question might be that with energy from the Lower Churchill we may be prepared down the road to think of our uranium enrichment plant for this Province - maybe there are environmental issues which concern us whi ch we cannot get into and sell something in the raw state,that it may be better to tell the company to hold on, do not develop it right now. Hold on for ten years time or seven years time or five years time because we think we can put the energy source together with your mineral, and we can therefore develop a seondar y industr y in this Province. Exactl y

May 8, 1978 Tape 1921 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: what is the relationship in this bill here to that kind of situation which may occur and I think possibly could occur? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: There are two points there, Mr. Chairman, as I see it; one is the business of the small deposits and whether in fact we are covering ourselves.

As I indicated on Friday and Thursday night this bill is designed primarily to deal with large land holdings and · to get companies to explore more than they have been because of these large concessions that were given back ten or fifteen years ago . and which they are going to hold for a long time to come. So our whole aim is to get at companies that have large acreage over all periods of time, with very minimum expenditures. But you still have your problem with your small holding. There is no question about it. It is not designed to deal with your small holdings.

But as I indicated before,tne whole question of the small holding is one that is not of prime concern to government here right now because we know the situation well enough that we can say with a fair amount of confidence that there are no small holdings on which there are commerical deposits of ore which are just sitting there and being speculated with on the futures Jnarkets. We can make that statement knowing it full well to be true. So therefore it does not present an immediate problem to us.

So we must get at the immediate problems immediately and the future problems futurely, so that down the road if s~f"eti~e some~ody does and we hear of Reid Newfoundland or some other small acreage holder having a commerical deposit, and we will know about it, well then we are going to have to deal with that when that time comes. I do not think we can anticipate it necessarily. And so sometime in the future we might have to grapple with that when that time comes, I do not think we can anticipate it necessarily.

And so sometime in the future we might have to grapple with that it might be next year or it might be the year after. But we are grappling with ·.l r ~ i c

! r May 8, 1978 Tape 1921 PK - 3 MR. PECKFORD: with the immediate problem co gee more exploration dollars into those areas which are not being explored enough because • I of concession agreements made years ago, and to try to reverse that trend and h?pefully this Act will do it.

Number two, on the uranium side in Labrador you have got the other side of the coin . ~s the bon. member says instead of pushing to try to get something in operation perhaps it would be better to delay because we might be able to,through Lower Churchill · power or some other power down the road, used it as uranium enrichment plant to be developed in Labrador, to export a finished product rather than a part:l,al product ._ . .iust take it out of the ground and ship it off somewhere else and have it refined.

And that is the chance that you always cake whether you go now, develop now as much as you can or whether you wait, and you have just got to play your chances~ t"-at is all. I mean,you have got to weigh the advantages and disadvantages in every particular case. .I __ ,

''lay 8,1973 Tape No 1922 AH-1 }!R.

PECKFORr: In the case of the ur~oium I suppose if additional uranium were discovered in Labrador I think the case would be better.1ight now there is not enough of uranium discovered . ! down there-The only known deposits of uranium of any size are the two already mentioned, the Kitts-Michelin deposits. ~ow there is a 1~hole belt of ore there but there is no guarantee; we do not know if there is any more uranium there or not.If we had the situation like they have in Saskatchewan,well then I think you would have a better case to make and then 1 as my colleague next to me is saying, the federal government has a lot to do with how much you can store in any case.

The Canadian Government's provisions now, I forget how much it is 0 You have to have so many million tons know in Canada for so many years, a ten or fifteen year supply before you are allowed to export. That whole export business of uranium in Canada is another matter-But if we had the kind of reserves that they are talking about in Saskatchevan~I think ~e would be in a I j " much better position to wai~ for a couple of years and make sure we had an uranium enrichment plant.

I suppose somebody could look back at us ten years from now and,let us say,that the Kitts-Michelin thing gets off the ground in the next year and a half or two years .. and say, You should have waited for ten years and then you IV'O\!-ld ho:~ve been in position;• you know, but hindsight is a wonderful thing I guess. But at the present moment I think we are still trying to debate in our minds. There have been no final decisions on whether to let Kitts-l1ichelin go ahead or not because Brinco have not made a decision either and have not come to us for sure knowing WLlether they want to go ahead or not.

They are lookiug at doing Jtit~s alone, they are looking at doing Kitts ami :•I.icnelin, they are looking at doing }I.ichelin, they are looking for =rkets in the United Sta>:es · as well as in Canada. If t~~y could get the kind of situation that Dennison got,as I said the other night,no doubt they would do it because all you have iu .K.itts-i·Iichelin rignt n01~ is a five or six year mine, that

~lay 3,1973 Tape No. 1922 AH- 2 tCR PECKFOPJ): is all you have, You have not even got an r.ormal life of a mine which is about ten years. Eigi1t to ten years is the normal life of any mine really, but in this case you J are tali~ing five years and away she goes and that is all of it, So we - ; are examinL<g that uranium thing very carefully. I note that the hon. ;:,.ember mentioned West Germany is stockpiling uranium. Y:es, thev are. As a matter of fact,the situation got so serious over there that they went to Russia and got some uranium from Russia,which was not very nice of the West Germans to do.

Here they. are in NATO and · · ~ all the rest of it and they were forced to go to Ru5sia to get some uranium because Canada had put the freeze on last I-I inter, Australia was not producing enough to supply their needs,a~d they were not able to get it from anywhere else and they were in a real bad way. They still are.

I remember having a meeting in this building about a year and a half ago with some people from West Germany,part of The European Economic Community ,and when I brought up the Canadian uranium exports they almost jumped right out of their seat and became very, very mad; they lost their cool and were no longer diplomats on behalf of EEC~but were shouting and bawling about how bad the Canadian government was~and whether we as one ProvL•ce could do something for them to change their minds. They were very sensitive on that whole uranium thing. }fR. FLIGliT: 11r. Chairman. HR. CHAIRHAN: Hen. member for Windsor-Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, ju~t a simple point of clarification here. I would like to ask the minister about the rights of companies- again I am thin!~g about the bigger ones, the multinationals. He seems to understand very clearly the position between,for instancc,using the IU>ARCfJ - Price (Nfld.) agreement, he seems to -be very clear but it is a complicated affair. The general public at large in the ~ediate sense do not understand it. There is no question about it,there is a co- tenancY.· arrangement in effect in the immediate Buchans area.

!Lay 8,1:'97 8 Tape i~o. 1922 A!i-3 :·IR. ~LIGHT: ASARCO has got concessions in ;.;ewfoundlanci where there is no co-; tenancy arrangement with Price (Nflcl.), it is solely ,\SARCO, right? . l HR. PECKFORD: Tuere is still some left.Yes. llR.

FLIGHT: llow what is the government 1 s position[ I am not sure that this bill addresses itself to it or necessarily would, but in as far as trading, transferring or selling rights, concessions,does the Province have a right to veto or does the Province retain the right to authorize such transfers of concessions, trading of concessions ~y trading off one block of land for another or what ;,ave you? \Vbat is the Province 1 s position in the transferring of concessions from one company to another or one individual to another? ~:iR. PECKFORD: I do not know, ~~.

Chairman, I honestly do not bow whether the concession agreement does include in it provision- somebody in the House might know; I do not know if anybody here knows-:vhether there is a provision in most of the concession agreements which allows for if they ~~~e going to transfer it they cannot do it and it must come oack to the Crown.

It would seem to me, · off the top of my head ,it lo.'ould co1:1c back to ~he Crowr;, T:1e Crown t.-ould have somet:1ing to say about it before t :1ey could do ~i1at because i: is a couces>lion between the Crown and the company concerned and surely there was some clause in the agr~ement which allowed that if they we~e to transfer all those rights, concession rights to somebody else that the other party would have something to say in it. I am only speakh<g from- . ' l I 1 '~

Hay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1923 :-1:1 - 1 MR. DOODY: TheTP ~re really no two ali~e. They are all different. ~. PECKFORD: No,I know they are all different. There was no" such thing as_ a policy for signing concession agreements; it was done individually so that each one you l·muld have to go through, so I do not know if it is there or not. But I can undertake to find out for the han. member you know. MR.

FLIGHT: I just point out to the minister that if :here is not, and if transferring of concessions is legal Without the appro~al OT without the awareness of government, you could have a situation where Asarco~for argument sake, could pay their impost next year and Price say to Asarco at some point during the year say, "Look, here is a chunk of land included in the inpost you paid," because they are not paying on an acreage basis, they are simply paying a tax based on their holdings. So these holdings can be decreased or increased without changing the tax they pay.

So I could understand an outfit like Asarco and Price, 'mo have already got a co-tenancy arrangement, that they could be trading concessions back and forth at considerable savings to either one of the companies. MR.. PECKFORD: I think we know if any land changes MR.. STRACHAN: Under

section 36 and 37, where it deals with third party interest because it discusses this quite specifically, and 36 and 37, "The effect of third party payments," and I was also concerned. l1aybe we could leave that and get through with this

section and get to it when we come to

section 36 and 37, clause 33 eh? On motion clause 33 through clause 35 without amendment, carried. MR. CHAIR.'1A.N: The han, member for Eagle River. ~- STRACHA.."T: I missed number 34 but I can probably discuss it in here. The fact that no compensation is payable to any person when i ··I ,,

~!ay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1923 .m- 2 MR. STR.<\CHAN: they forfeit the right. Let us get on to 36 for the third party right to pay tax,and this is of course the point brought ·up by my colleague from Windsor-Buchans 1 and 37 of course is where it will affect third party payment. And this is what bothers me is that in essence somebody can pay the tax t<hich is mved on a mineral holding. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, that is specific though as it relates to mortgages and mechar.ic 1 s lien, is it not? "''R. STRACHAN : Yes, that is right.

Hy argument is basically this that it may not be desirable for government to allow someone to pay a tax on a property and therefore obtain a mortgage or some holdings or whatever it is trlthout it first reverting to Crown and Crown deciding whether the new parties concerned,for instance,are obviously people they t·Tish to have that right to the mineral right.

For instanc£,I could think that in some cases there may be an arg?Ment between Commodore and Brinex on related properties and so on for instance where Commodore might be interested very much ~~d paying taxes and Brinex were not going to pay the taxes on large holdings. And it may be that the whole situation is complicated here. Could the minister tell us exactly what happens when - ~iR. )TEA.. ttY : Commodore has a map,by the •.-Tay,showing that the vein does run through one of the Brinex companies. HR. PECKFORD: Well, I wish they would show it to us. They dij show it to the minister.

I checked it out the other day after the minister gave us the information in the House. :1&.. PECKFORD: No, they have not. c·:R. NEARY : They have shown it to the minister - HR. PECKFORD: That is another one of your scurrilous information bits that has no foundation in fact, I am afraid. MR. NEARY: It does have foundation in fact. The president of Commodore told me himself. HR. PECKFORD: That is why I said it did not have any foundation in fact. --. ; I 1 :f ,; :•

Y.ay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1923 J:li - 3 HR. STRA.CHJ..N: Could the minister then indicate to us what is going to happen in this case? Is the land going to revert back to the Crown? HR. NEARY: There is no heresay on this side. It is all facts. }1R. STRACHA.J.~ : I think it is a very important - MR. HUP.PHY: It is tough enough for me to follow one but to try to get t>·m. MR. F. ROWE: You were right the first time. MR. STRACHAN: The hen. member had been right the first time,you know.

But anyway the point is that could the minister tell us exactly,because that is very important as to whether that land, the mineral rights revert to the Crown and the Crown then pass them on to whoever wishes it,or can by the payment of this tax a third party obtain that without the expressed permission of the Crown just by paying the taxes owed an any particular year or before the forfeiture clause comes into place. Obviously if the forfeiture clause comes into pla~e then it will revert back to the Crown. ~- PECK..."'RD: Yes. Right. There is no problem there. ~.

STRACHAN: But in this case here where the third party is prepared to pay the tax,there could be situations which become very, very difficult because in many cases one never knows who pays the tax for whom or who is paying the tax or who is getting it. My main concern is whether the land really reverts, the mineral rights revert to the Crown. ~-- PECKFORD: Obviously, Hr. Chairman, I t , ., ,~ . '

~:ay 8, 1S'78 ~-'J'... PECKFORD: it does not he~e under this sectiot;. All it does - it is sort of a legalistic kind of situation,! mean I do not think it really auo.lresse:; itself to what the han. member is talking ibout.If sornebody,any person who is a mortagee in respect of the hold or any part of mineral holding or is tl1e _ p!Jld _er of a registered ll"2chanics lien or".(

c) has a ri!<ht . to obtain any kind of an interest in a mineral holding"recause it was part of the agreement;'or is a mortagee.execution crerlitor or mechanics' lien holder _ i~ respect of all or any part of the estate of the taxpayer"tmless Lf it was not forfeited,in this case it is not forfeited,the company still has it and the company for some reason or another did not do what it 1vas supposed to do and therefore there is a mortagee outstanding there or there is a mechanics lien or somebody had a right in any case, well then the . normal process - we would know who is paying it and they have the right to pay it.They have the right to pay the tax if they are not exploring on the land to the degree that the go¥ernment wants.

Eut it is more exceptions to the rule rather than the rule !1ere which are identified 'lnd it does not necessarily mean that sotn.e- body else Hould get the land and tve would not know who it was and then they would not be doing Hhat they tvere supposed to be doing on it. I ~ean it is fairly specif~c here on wl~om it refers to so I do not really see the problem that the hon. member sees there. It is theoretically possible, but tV'hen you 16ok at the provisions of the act itself under thirty-six I no not see any real problem there.

There is no forfeiture obviously because if there Has then there would not be any need of this section. It is ~ere the company still has otmership or had ownership .. and because there ,,,as a mortagee or because there was a mechanics lien or because nu - 1 i: r I I t f; I' I! !l .ii !I :l -.:r: . 1( . !! j J l! • i I {

~~ay 8, 1978 '1F - 2 ·r !·'T.. PECKFOP-" : somebody else had some other rights, part or Hhole,then they will be forced to pay that tax on behalf of the C:Ot!!pany to ~.mom they have some interest on that land. And so we will- in other words,He are safe-guarding or ensuring that •·re are going tc get paid that tax or that amount of money is to be spent for those particular groups of people. ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 36 carry? I i' On motion Clause 36 carried. On motion Clauses 37 through to 45 carried. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman, Clause 46. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: This Clause here to make regulations under this Act, or - MR. PECKFORD: That is right. MR. StRACHAN: Amendments and so on. MR. PECKFORD: That is right. Which have to be tabled in the House th~~ after they are approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. MR. STRACHAN: Yes.

Could the minister then wlien- :le- is . finally wrapping up indicat<' : to us there are certain things here which obviously down the road would have to be brought out of . play, and ~e will look,for auite soon I would imagine in some cases the argument of new regulations or extra regulations or amendments to this Bill, because there are some specific questions in mind. MR.

PECKFORD: On the regulations,they would just cover the points mentioned under (46) fixing the duties of the assessor and other officers in specific terms and persons appointed governing the form of returns to be made under this Act, because if you will remember back in the first early sections of the Act, you know, the forms that were going to be done were given in a general way , prescribing facts and information to be contained in the returns. That would all come under the regulations, Respecting expenditures, explora~ion work, and pre-production development that may be approved by the Minister of

May 8, 1978 Tape 1924 DW - 3 Mr. Peckford: Mines and Energy.

If you remember, it was up to the Minister of Mines and Energy and then we would have to make regulations, the department would, and have them approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council as related what we would consider to be used to go against the paying of the tax In other words , for example, in the Brinex case now, in Kitts-Michelin, if they went and said they were going to have a mine here and the government agreed and all the rest and they went down the road to do it,then they start spending additional money on not exploration work necessarily but pre-production, how much of their pre-production expenses would we consider to be justified to go against the amount of tax they would have to pay on all their lands, you see?

So I think that would have to be defined. - k'·rescr1oing the rate of interest on taxes, any arrears thereof, prescribing the manner and time in which the impost levied is to be paid, prescribing- so we will have, no doubt, regualtions. I have not seen them yet, but no doubt we would have regulations within a month or so after the passing of this Act to ensure that these specifics were covered because the companies are going to be asking right awav for the specifics so that they can get it to their lawyers and get it to their accountants in order to get the forms done out. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman, I am finished the bill except for one small point, if I could have leave ot t:he Connnit:tee to go back to i:: a little bit. MR. PECKFORD : Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is agreed. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Agreed. .j I I, I ~ . I~ f• . 1

May 8, 1978 Tape 1925 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: The question basically that I am' asking is, Could a company such as Reid Newfoundland - and it was under the

section I missed there when the Chairman went through it, (36) and (37), and no compensation - could any companies feel, and rightfully so, I would think, that any negotiations that they may have to sell land was being slowed down by government? Because obviously in slowing down any negotiations to sell land back to the Crown, for instance, or rights back to the Crown, inadvertently slowing it down, you would be whittling away the amount of money that they are claiming for it.

For instance, if they are asking for $6 million and they are owed $2 million in taxes every year, the Crown by right could say, Well we will sit here for three years and argue with you and finally when we have argued with you, under this condition here there is no compensation whatsoever, in which case then we are all balanced and equal we will take your rights by forfeiture and you get no payment at all for your rights. You know, there is a situation there, right? And I would think that right now there is a situation in which they would say, 'Right now we are liable for taxes under this bill - MR. PECKFORD: Yes.

MR. STRACHAN: 'Can we come to an agreement? And we want such and such a figure - $6 million or $8 million, whatever it is,' and government offers them $1 million or much, much lower than what is necessary and needed or the~ require, and by government slowing down the process and dragging out negotiations they are incurring, of course, the debts under this bill until, in essence, for large holdings everything could be square, or in fact, they could even carry on to where they would have to pay us. So what t : r. l ,j

~fay 8, 19 7 8 Tape 1925 IB-2 HR. STRACHAN: is the situation then under this no compensation clause? MR. PECKFORD: That would be two separate issues. I do not see them the same. I mean if they built up a debt, well of course there are offences and penalties under the act they would have to pay if they did to start with, leaving number two. We would claim that they would have to pay the taxes for that length of time one and two, then negotiate any price for the mineral rights as separate from it. I mean you would not necessarily build it up or I would not consider that to be payment for the land.

I would think that would be separate. Any taxes that Reid Newfoundland incur over the next couple of years they will have to pay it, otherwise we would issue the penalties or they would forfeit the land. So I do not see the hon. member's point as it reiates to this. MR. STRACHAN: My point simply is that the Crown by stating that we could come to an agreement with you tomorrow to pay you for your rights and your mineral rights for instance, $2 million, but we do not want to pay you. We do not want to get into that kind of a situation, set precedents for that kind of thing.

We do not think it is necessary or need to . Therefore by delaying tactics the Crown could,and the companies obviously are frightened of this,! would think, the Crown could therefore delay the final negotiations or negotiations for sale. So that the amount of taxes owed by Reid Newfoundland could equal the sale price for the mineral rights and be transferred back to the Crown. MR. PECKFORD: So? MR. STRACHAN: So they get nothing for the sale of the mineral rights. Sure they get the $2 million which they now owe in taxes. You understand? MR. PECKFORD: Yes 1 but - ·'

May 8, 1978 Tape 1925 IB-3 MR. STRACHAN: So the Crown has the right by delaying negotiations, I would see it, in fact if I was wanting to be unfair to Reid Newfoundland right now,I would obviously if I wanted to be unfair I would obviously say to Reid Newfoundland, well we will talk about it tomorrow and we will talk about it in the next six months and we will talk about it next year or two years from now and we are still trying to negotiate a final price for their mineral rights,let us say, as separate from the rest of it.

Then when you finally come to an agreement on price you say well now that is fine, now you owe us this in taxes so we are L square. You get nothing. But the Crown by delaying - surely that is not wrong. I mean surely if I go for taxes on the one hand to the Crown and they are trying to negotiate a price to sell the land which is what they are doing now to the Crown - MR. FLIGHT: They allow the tax to build up equal to what the - MR. STRACHAN: Sure. They allow the tax to build up equal to it and then wipe them out by delaying tactics, you know. r. MR.

PECKFORD: I do not see that as being a realistic alternative from our point of view. I mean,they would have to pay the taxes. I mean they just would not build them up. They would be penalized under the act in any case. So if they were saying they were going to pay us $2 million and we did not want to ac~ept it, well then down the road that value would go up no doubt before we would agree and there might be $6 million plus the taxes that they owe. . ! ~ MR. STRACHAN: That is right. MR. PECKFORD: Exactly.

But the only thing that would change would be the value that we wanted to place on their mineral rights because their taxes would have

May 8, 19 78. Tape 1925 IB-4 HR. PECK FORD : to be paid or otherwise they would lose the land in any case under t he act. MRS. MciSAAC: If the taxes were not paid they would? M~ . PECKFORD: Yes. ~fR. STRACHAN: · .. I do not know if t~e minister is aware of t his, possibly different wave lengths or :: , .. something.

May 8, 1978 T ape 1926 PK - 1 MR. PECKFORD: I know. I know what the han. member is saying - MR. STRACHAN: You know th" r>oint T mn at? MR. PECKFORD: I do not feel that - MR. STRACHAN: !"am -saying that the Crown could by delaying tactics in any situation MR. PECKFORD: Sure! Sure! MR. STRACHAN: - Cause taxes to increase so as to wipe out any monies due that company in right of their sale to the Crown or whatever else it did. MR. PECKFORD: Right! Right! MR.

STRACHAN: And that is what I would regard right now as Reid Newfoundland's position, and I would imagine Reid Newfoundland's worry at the moment would be that if tnis is this proclaimed law tomorrow then they are immediately liable to the payment of impost tax. MR. PECKFORD: Right. MR. STRACHAN: And they will have to pay it every year. Whether we pay it every year or pay it in two years time after they negotiate a deal with the sale back,it is immaterial, Well~pay it every year. MR. PECKFORD: Yes. Exactly. This Act is not subject to any a~reement we sign with Reid Newfoundland. This is

an Act, rull Sl:Op. MR. STRACHAN: That is right. So they pay it. The point is what I am saying is that it makes no difference how Reid Newfoundland pay their taxes; every year, which they will probably have to under this thing, the government by slowing down and by delaying and by negotiating with them, and keeping negotiating with them can wipe out their sale price. MR. PECKFORD : Yes. Sure we can. MR.. STRACHAN: And I am wondering if there is any protection for companies under that kind of thing that if they have entered serious negotitions, the clause there of no compensation means that it makes no difference. - ~ ~ . • I t ,

r May 8, 1978 Tape 1926 PK - 2 MR. PECKFORD: Right. Under this Act it makes no difference. MR. STRACHAN: I wonder whether there is leave to allow difference in taxes will cease, or will there be a situation in dragging out negotiations? MR. PECKFORD: Yes,until such time as we are into a position to culminate or settle an arrangement with Reid Newfoundland or somebody else this stays in effect as it is.

Then if under negotiations agreement is reached with Reid which is in some way different from or subtracts from or adds to this,well then you would either have to have an amendment to this bill or a separate bill in which it would say that this one no longer applies or something similar, you know, but until that time comes, you know, government has that I suppose that kind of advantage if the hon. member wants to look at it that way. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

STRACHAN: Could not the minister agree that it is taken away from Reid Newfoundland that it would possibly be an advantage to the Crown which is built into this bill MR. PECKFORD: Yes, I said that. MR.

STRACHAN: - an unfair advantage, for instance, in the case of Commodore,or mayoe there is little tiffs between the government and Commodore at the moment or anybody for that matter - it does not interest me, I am just using that as an example-that a govermnent could force them to give up their land, and this would be unfair to me , unfair government pressure on holders of mineral rights in order to allow other people to take over or whatever way we want to work it. To me there is some argument here in that no compensation, I know that that worries us. SOME HON:MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

A bill, "An Act To Authorize An Impost Upon Certain Mineral Holdings In The Province." (Bill No. 5). That the Committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair,

May 8, 1978 Tape 1927 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Chairman of Committees. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and have directed . me to report having passed bill no. 5 with amendment and ask leave to sit again. On·motion report received and adopted, amendments read a first and second time, Committee ordered to sit again presently by leave. HR. RICKMAN: Order 5, bill no. 12. Motion second reading of l a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Government - Pyramid Mobile Homes

(1959) Limited (Confirmation Of Agreement) Act." (Bill No. 12) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROliiE: I moved the adjournment of the debate, ~ :; i Sir, the other evening. I would like to say a few brief words on this bill, Mr. Speaker, because this bill is important not for . what it necessarily does itself although that is important enough but what it symbolizes in this Province. This act repeals the Government-Pyramid Mobile Homes

(1959) Limited (Confirmation of Agreement) Act, 1974 and extinguishes any right, title or privilege in relation to that act of Pyramid Mobile Homes

(1959) Limited or its successors in title. It wipes out, Sir, the right, title and interest of Pyramid Mobile Homes which were granted by this hon. House in 1974 a couple of years after this administration came to power. .._ , I listened with interest to the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) the other day giving the reasons for it, for the necessity of now taking back,extinguishing, doing away with all the rights and titles so far as this House is able to do so of that company. It is just another sad chapter, Sir, in the general

May 8, 1978 Tape 1927 IB-2 MR. W. ROWE: economic history of the past six years. Because, as I said, this bill and when it is passed into law, this act, represents,symbolizes what has been going on in this Province since 1972. My han. colleague, the member for LaPoile district (Mr. Neary) mentioned some examples the other night which are similar to this particular bill and which are related to the general topic being discussed as a result of being so similar, Sir, to that particular bill. We are talking about shutdowns. We are talking about extinguishment of economic interests.

We are talking about companies and individuals who have not been able to carry on in business or never got off the ground or were stillborn or were shutdown or closed down during the tenure of this present government. Come By Chance Oil Refinery closed down under the tenure of this ~articular government. Labrador Linerboard mill in Stephenville shut down, Mr. Speaker, by this government. The woods operation related to that in Goose Bay-Happy Valley shut down under the tenure of office of this particular government. The Hawkes Bay W6ods operation, the St. Lawrence mines, Mr.

Speaker, shutdown under the aegis, under the stewardship of this present administration. The Steel Mill in Donovans, an effort to get a stell mill going there, Sir, and employ a number of scores of people in that particular industry shut down under the operations , under the stewardship of this present administration. This car wreck company, whatever the name of that was, set up by this government, Affiliated Metal, set up with the best wishes of this government and subsequently, post- haste closed down under the stewardship of this government. -.I -.:;--, I " 'i I• it i! t

May 8, 1978 Tape 1927 IB-3 ~1R. W. ROWE : The Blow Me Down Fish Meal ~lant in Curling shut down, closed down under the operations of this government. Sawmill closures, Sir, all over the Province. O-perations MR. FLIGHT: Daily . MR. W. ROWE: Daily, my bon. colleague from Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight) says and reluctantly I am forced to agree with him. Daily we see that kind of an operation, often helped by the government, for some reason or other left in the lurch, not encouraged enough I I r. I • . ~ .! t ~ t ... ; l t . I . ~ . t '

May 8, 1978 Tape No. 1928 JM- 1 MR. 111.N. ROWE: or because of the general economic decline fostered by the negligence and incompetence of this present administration allowed -to go out of business. Pelcon, Sir, apparently gone into receivership. A great

article h~re in Atlantic Advocate on that company, an effort to get into small electronic components, undenvater electric connectors,as I understand it. In the Atlantic Advocate the :'-'.ay edition of 1978 - Newfoundland Investment keeps ne~-1 industry in Canada. A big write-up on what a tremendous effort that is. And I ~rould say, Sir, that judging from the people who were involved in that that they did make a masterful effort to keep that going. But again closed down or allowed to close down under the operations, under the tenure of office of this government. The Buchans ~e, Mr.

Speaker, symbolized again by this bill, "An Act to Repeal The Government - Pyramid Mobile Homes Limited (Confirmation of Agreement) Act," the Buchans mine we see looming in the distance~and not too far in the distance either,as another example of a close down, a shut down with no efforts made by this government whatsoever to turn it around in any way,to help economically the people involved by the establishment or re-establishment of other industry. The list, Sir, reads like - The ancient E~jptians had a Book of the Dead, Mr. Speaker, where they used to inscribe all the names of.

Pharoahs 1and notables who died over the eons, over the years, over the centuries, over t1le milenni 1 a , a Book of the Dead. We should, Sir, somebody suggested to me there the other day1 we should put do~vn in the Confederat'ion Building lobby the Newfoundland and Labrador Book o·f the Dead so that anybody who comes into this seat of government, t;1e seat of the Parlial!lent of this Province,can go over and commiserat;e with or otherwise extend consolation of some sort to this government because of all the bereavements they have suffered in the industrial development over th~ past five or six years. ~'R.

NEARY: In memoriam .it should read. !1R. W .N. ROl;'E: In memoria~ ,it should read. ofR. F. ROWE: We should add the government to that list now. i ... 1 . I . I ' ! ! •

:1ay 8, 1978 Tape No. 1928 .JM - 2 MR. lv .N. ROWE: The government \dll be the biggest shutdown of >t1 1 • AN RON. MID-IBER: The gover=ent wi 11 be the last shutdown. MR. W .N. ROWE: Yes, but that time is fast approaching as well. Interfish, canning herring a.'1d shipping it to Non,;ay 1as I understand it, Sir, shut do~m under the ausnicies of this government. RKO Industry ma.~ing electrical compotents in Stephenville, born, struggled briefly, killed 1mder the -a~spicies of this government.

Hartime Bedding in Stephenville, Sea Mining in Port au Port, no action there - shut dm·m, Pack Atlantic Stephenville Fish Processing, exactly the same thing again, Sir. As a matter of fact, Sir, the number of industries which were either closed down or never got off the ground in the Stephenville area since the advent of this gover=ent in 1972 fills just about eight pages, double snaced type written pages, ~r. Speaker. Alcan Alumium Wire and Cable Manufacturing,inactive since 1972. Bison Brewer Company closed down. Dunphy's Fisheries t~ere in the Harmon Complex closed down. Interfish Limited,I mentioned that.

Pack Atlantic Limited closed in 1974. Labrador Linerboard,I have mentioned. Maritime Bedding and Upholstery I have mentioned. Northland Forest Products closed in 1975. Newfoundland Forest Products closed in 1972. ilewfoundland Iron Works, I believe,according to the note here, I do not know lvhat became of it. It seems to have been closed out or is in the process of closing out. Norse Net Limited, fishing nets and gear, closed in 1974. RKO Industries I have mentioned closed in 1973. Aviation Services,which is a~operational and service type industries we are into now_ closed in 1974. Book World closed in 1974.

Harvey and Company Limited had an operation out there in the Harmon Complex closed since 1972. Stephenville Bakery closed in 1972. Prime Building Trades Limited closed in 1974. Connors Brothers closed in 1974. B.L. Clarke Limited, D and~-. Ybtors, Down Air Limited closed in 1975. . ~

I)' May 8, 1978, Tape 1929, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, Mini Meat and Fish Market closed 1974; Power Plumbing and Heating closed 1974; Prime Building Trades closed 1974; Quality Bakery closed 1972; The Spinning Wheel closed 1975; Sullivan's Mechanical and Electrical closed 1975; Stephenville Electronics closed; TPL Limited closed .1975. The Newfoundland and Labrador Book of the Dead, Sir, symbolized by this bill,.

"An Act To Repeal The Pyramid Mobile Homes And Government Agreement Act, 1974." All this does, Sir, is symbolizes the number of industries which have closed their doors under the tender ministrations of this government on the other side of the House. Now, Sir, surely Your Honour may say to yourself, Surely there must be another side to this balance sheet, it cannot be all death and dying economically in the Province?

Surely since this government carne into power there must be something to symbolize, something which is opposite to this act which symbolizes the economic death of scores and scores of industries since 1972? There must be something on the credit side of the ledger. Well, Sir, aside from, as I have mentioned earlier, the possibility of the zinc operation there in Daniel's Harbour which, of course, was well underway, or the viability was well proven before this hon. government ever carne into office, aside from that, Sir, I defy any member of this House,on either side of this han.

House to indicate one industry of any kind which this government has been successful in either attracting, or developing, or fostering, or keeping going for a substantial period of time, not one, Sir, in six years. Not one single industry. Instead, Sir, the balance sheet is somewhat lopsided and, as I say, symbolized by this bill here which gives, I suppose, the - what would you call . I

May 8, 1978, Tape 1929, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: it? - the Extreme Unction to the Pyramid Mobile Homes or even beyond that. It is the last rites, it is the actual burial of that particular industry. And not one, Sir, we cannot come up with one that symbolizes some degree of success in the industrial policy of this government. Not only has there been deaths and dying economically and industrially, Mr. Speaker, but there have also been a number of still- births, I supppose you might call them.

They never were born although they were ballyhooed about by this government, particularly when it came to electioneering and election times 1 a number, Sir, we all remember. One non-start, one stillbirth 1 the second oil refinery down in Come by Chance was an absolute certainty if you listened to the Premier of this Province and his colleagues in the days and weeks leading up to the 1975 general election, An absolute certainty the second oilrefinery! And, I suppose, it was not a month later or two months later before not only did we not have a second refinery ,but the first one had gone up the spout as well.

The petrochemical complex which was again ballyhooed at the appropriate times, when this particular government was looking for votes and support from people, Sir, the petrochemical complex would rear its head once more. The tunnel across the Straits of Belle Isle, the development of the Lower Churchill: Again, at the appropriate election time reared its head and was pushed and fostered by the government and $100 million of public money down the drain in an effort to win back a few scraps of power as the government of this Province once more.

The Lower Churchill; something else, Sir, which was a stillbirth, which died aborning, which never saw the light of day, which you can also put r . I i'. ,. I 1- ..

May 8, 1978, Tape 1929, Page 3 -- apb MR. W. N.ROWE: in the Newfoundland and tabrad.cn- economic or industrial Book of the Dead. Well, Sir, if you want to get into the laughable monstrosities then you can come up with hundreds of examples from the Twillingate by- election , or from the Bonavista North byelection,or the Exploits byelection,or the Ferryland byelection, the things that were from blueberry pie factories, Sir, to heavens knows what - · .. . ' '• ,.

~:ay 8,1978 Tape ~lo. 1930 Ali-1 :.rn.. W. ROw£:: herring i;.arr.ol factories, you name it, Sir, :i1ese were promised during these appropriate occasions f or making political promises. They did not die aborning, Sir, there were not stillborn, they were never conceived,those particular examples of industrial failure. So, Sir, it is a shaiileful record which 11e see exemplified and symbolized by this bill, Bill No. 12,here today.

We should all go do~m to the lobby of ti1e Confederation Building, Sir, and open up a book, it would be a book 1vi th several hundred pages in it, with ten or twelve names on every page,and we could put on that book the number of industries which this government either promised and did not produce,or l-!hich promised and ma~e a half-hearted effort in producing,which were stillborn,or industries which this government presided over the close down, or the destruction of,or the negligent mismanagement and the incompetent operation of to the extent that they never did or they went out of existance with extreme economic consequences to workers and unemployed people in this Province.

And if the government, Sir, can come up with a book of industrial life as well to put by the side of it down in the lobby of the Confederation Building,I would be the first one to admire it and to praise it to the people of this Province. 3ut, Sir, it would be the shortest book in