Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36 (27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-36

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

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THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, March lOth, 1964. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Attorney-General) (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their second report. Your Committee has considered Bills: No. 2,

An Act to amend The Insurance Act; No. 4,

an Act to amend The Change of Name Act; No. 11,

an Act to Amend The Alcoholism Foundation Act; No. 12,

an Act to amend The Health Services Act; No. 13, anAct to amend The Psychiatric Nurse Association Act; No. 14,

an Act to amend The Public Libraries Act; No. 28,

an Act to amend The Amusement Act; No. 34,

an Act to amend The Companies Act, and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered Bills No. 24,

an Act to amend The Pharmaceutical Act; No. 27,

an Act to amend The County Court Act; No. 31,

an Act to amend The Wives' and Children's Maintenance Act; No. 35 ,

an Act respecting The Dower of Married Persons; No. 45,

an Act to amend The Trustee Act," and has agreed to report the same with certain amend ments, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR . McLEAN: I move that the report of the Committee be received-- I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills . The Honourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. JAMES COWAN, Q:C. (Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 85,

an Act respecting the Profession of Medicine. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources that Madam Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed Resoltuion standing in my name. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . HUTTON: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed Resolution recommends it to the House. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolved it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the trans portation, storage, selling and marketing of natural products by the producers thereof and providing among other matters for payment from and out of the consolidated fund the costs of administration of the Act. Resolution be adopted? MR. HUTTON: Mr.

Chairman, under the existing Act, all the costs of administration, including the remuneration of the Manitoba board members and the costs of votes and referendums is paid for by levy on the ragulated products. Under the revised Act which is being introduced, the remuneration of the board members and the costs of votes, referendums, etc. will be paid for out of the consolidated fund. The costs of administration, supervision and enforcement will be paid for by charges and levies on any regulated products under any plans that are implemented. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Carried. Committee rise and report.

Call in the Speaker. MR . W.G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): .Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield that the report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . HUTTON introduced Bill No. 76,

an Act respecting the transportation, .storage, March lOth, 1964. Page 917

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ... selling and marketing of natural products by the producers thereof. MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to attract your attention to the gallery where there are seated in the Speaker's gallery some 15 students from Indian Affairs School, the upgraded class under the direction of their teacher Mr. Kelner . The se students come from various constitu encies in the province . There are also in the gallery some 100 Grade VIII students from the Golden Gate School, under the direction of their teachers Mr. Marick, Mr. Coates and Mrs. Brimacombe .

This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia . We welcome you here this afternoon . We hope that all that you see and hear in this Legislative Assembly will be of help to you in your studies. May this visit be an inspir ation to you and stimulate your interest in provincial affairs. Come back and visit us again. MR . GILD AS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose) : Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I rise on a matter of the privileges of the House.

Yesterday, Madam Speaker, there were certain actions in this House which strike at the very root of our very whole system -- and I refer to the fact that a Minister of the Crown stood in his place in this House yesterday and misinformed this House. And that Madam Speaker, is a matter that cannot, under our system , be tolerated; a matter that is of supreme and vital importance to every member of this House, to every/person in the Province of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, we cannot have situations where Ministers of the Crown, speaking as Ministers to this House, make statements that are not accurate ; make statements that are false and misinform the House and mislead the House by the statements that they make. Yesterday afternoon Madam Speaker, the Member for St. George asked certain questions with regard to the actions of the former Attorney-General.

The former Attorney-General accused him first of all, in his normal fashion of being inaccurate in these following words: "approxi mately half of what my honourable friend said verges on being accurate -- and for him that is something of a recor d. I can tell the House as well that 50 percent of what he said to the House today is, as usual, pure and errant nonsense." Madam Speaker, the Minister carried on and said -- I'm referring to Hansard page 886 -- amongst other things these statements: "He says that there was a definite arrangement made between the Crown and the defense on a plea of manslaughter.

I can completely and absolutely deny that Mr. Chairman. There was no such arrangement made. The Attorney-General speaking the other evening gave the explana tion as to why this case was traversed from one assize to another.

Last night Madam Speaker, a letter was read in this Chamber and the gentleman who was the defense attorney, or who had been chosen to do the preliminary work as defense attorney in this case, and Madam Speaker there is no question as to the statements that are made there unsolicited statements made by that gentleman, because he was so concerned about what had happened and he was so concerned about the administration of justice in Manitoba that he felt obligated to write this letter.

And in that letter it is clearly outlined Madam Speaker, that the crown attorney interviewed the Minister, acting upon the Minister's instructions·, did offer to the defense attorney a plea of manslaughter. It is further indicated that the Crown Attorney proceeded to see the Judge and obtain an agreement from the Court that this would be accepted. Madam Speaker, this is completely contrary to what the Minister had said in the House here in the afternoon. Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that

whereas the administration of justice is a prime responsibility of the Manitoba Government; and

whereas this is administered through the Attorney-General; and

whereas on Monday, March 9th 1964 the former Attorney-General misled the House in his replies with regard to certain statements, regarding arrangements and deals for the reduction of charges in criminal cases; therefore

be it resolved that this House censure the former Attorney-General and request his resignation; and be it further resolved that this House request the Manitoba Government to appoint an independent committee to enquire into all aspects of the administration of justice in Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: In my mind this charge laid refers to something that happened on Monday, March 9th, when the former Attorney-General gave his statement in this House.

I believe that the earliest opportunity that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition could have brought this up was when the former Attorney-General made the statement, and therefore I. .. ... MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before you make your ruling, if I may, I would point out that it is impossible for me in committee, I believe, to make a motion of this type. I don't Page 918 March lOth, 1964. I

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ... believe that I could in the Committee, ask for the resignation of a member who is no longer the Minister of the department with which we are dealing. I could ask for the resignation of the present Minister, but I don't believe that I could the past Minister when I am not dealing with his estimates. Secondly, Madam Speaker, at that time we do not have the Hansard; we only have what we have heard. I now have the Hansard and this is the first opportunity the Hansard is available, and I was referring specifically to those statements in that way.

So I submit, Madam Speaker, that this was in fact the first opportunity on that basis that this action could be taken. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.C. (Minister of Mines & Natural Resources) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I should like to be as helpful as I can to my honourable friend so that he can have this matter debated.

I'm just wondering though, as to whether or not there is a difference between the question of privilege which he raises, and which is a matter which should be debated at the earliest possible moment, and the question of resignation of a Minister of the Crown, which is always an interesting subject but not necessarily one of privilege. It seems to me that he has perhaps welded the two tog·ether in his statement concerning privilege .

I must say, Madam Speaker, that I agree that at any time a question of privilege arises, whether it be in Committee or otherwise, I think it is quite clear from the rules that the member con cerned is free through the Chairman, to ask the Speaker to return immediataly to have that matter discussed. In that regard I think Madam that you are quite right. I merely want to assure him that I would love to debate this subject with him at any time subject to your ruling, Madam, as to when it is in order. Later on we will be in Committee; I'm certain we can have a chance then. MR.

MOLGA T: Madam Speaker, I would refer you to Beauchesne, page 102, citation 113, which specifically say_s: "A question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion giving the House power to impose reparation or apply a remedy." Madam Speaker, the remedy and the motion which I am proposing could not have been moved yesterday in Committee. MADAM SPEAKER: I refer back to our own Rules, Orders and Forms of Procee dings: "When a matter of privilege arises it shall be taken into consideration immediately." I base my ruling on this.

I believe that it should have been taken up at that time, and basing my ruling on this I cannot accept the resolutio n. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I must very reluct antly appeal your decision. MADAM SPEAKER: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? After a voice vote, Madam Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . MOLGAT: Yeas and nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the Members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. A standing vote was taken with the following results: YEAS: Messrs.

Witney, M cLean, Evans, Lyon, Carroll, Hutton, Lissaman, Gray, Paulley, Harrison, Weir, Smellie, Steinkopf, Cowan, Groves, Martin, Klym, Schreyer, Wright, Peters, Watt, Mc Gregor, Jeannotte, Stanes, Beard, Strickland, McKellar, Mills, Seaborn, Mc Donald, Bilton, Bjornson, Moeller, Cherniack and Mrs. Morrison . NAYS: Messrs. Molgat, Hillhouse, Campbell, Desjardins, Shoemaker, Guttormson, Tanchak, Johnston, Patrick, Barkman, Veilfaure, Froese . MR. CLER K: Yeas, 35; Nays, 12. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. Orders of the Day.

Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Br okenhead): Madam Sp eaker, I would still like to have this stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? Address for Papers standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. George. MR . ELMAN GUT TORMSON (St. George) : Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, that -- (Interjection) -- well, I've cleared it --that a humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for copies of all corre spondence between March lOth, 1964. Page 919

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd) ... the Government of Manitoba, its Boards or Commissions, and Drake-Pearson and/or Drake Construction and/or persons acting on behalf of Drake-Pearson or Drake Construction during 1963. Madam Speaker put the question. HONOURABLE GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): If I might rise to a point of order here. The Leader of the Opposition is out of the House, but it has been my understanding that he was willing to allow these three items to stand until the First Minister returned to the House where he is ... .. MR .

GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, the First Minister spoke to me about this matter. This was not one that he wanted stood -- if my understanding is correct. lVIR. EVANS: I'm sure it may be a misunderstanding. I have the Premier's copy of the Orders of the Day here with a notation on it in his own handwriting, and some questions that he wanted to discuss in connection with this particular order. Now it could be handled in one of two ways: my honourable friend could move his motion if he wishes, and the debate could be adjourned.

Otherwise the items could be allowed to stand until the Premier returns to the House and perhaps my honourable friend would say which he prefers. MR. GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I have no objection to whatever course the House Leader wishes me to take. I spoke to the First Minister privately about this matter and it was my understanding that he wanted me to stand two of the four Orders. I said I would be happy to do this, and the Orders that he asked me to stand, if I understood him correctly, were the next two.

However, if he has marked his Order Paper in this manner perhaps I should stand it and wait for him tomorrow. I have no objections to doing this. MR. EVANS: .. ... perhaps only until the First Minister returns to the House at which point he would be quite willing to deal with the matt er; and perhaps if that is acceptable to the Honourable Member for St. George -- I don't know how Madam Speaker will rule in the present situation where a motion has been placed before the House. We could by unanimous consent allow the withdrawal of the motion at this point.

If I had the consent of the House I would recommend that because -- my understanding is quite clear and I made the mark on this copy at the time, that he would be grateful if the House would allow these three items to stand, the first three items standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. George until the Premier is able to return. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, perhaps it might facilitate matters of the House if I withdrew the motion and I have that permission. I must have misunderstood the First Minister then, because I thought he pinpointed the two. If I misunderstood him, I'm sorry.

I'll ask that the moti'on be withdrawn. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? MR . EVANS: I wish to thank my honourable friend. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I think this would apply to the next two Orders and I'll ask that they be stood over. If you'd proceed to the fourth one then, .. .. .. . MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. George. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: 1.

What was the total amount of the original grouting contract awarded for the Grand Rapids project by the Manitoba Hydro or the Manitoba Government. 2. What additional grouting work was awarded. 3. To whom was it awarded. 4. Was it by contract awarded by public tender. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for St. James, and the proposed amendment of the Honourable the Member for Wellington; and the proposed amendment to the amendment by the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia.

The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, may we have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand please. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Carillon, and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Member for Fisher, and the Page 920 March lOth, 1964.

(Madam Speaker, cont' d) ... proposed amendment to the amendment by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Con servation. MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR. NELSON SHOEl'IIAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand please. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed.

The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. The Honourable the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. OSCAR BJORNSON (Lac du Bonnet): I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable the Member for Morris. MR . R.O. LISSAMAN (Brandon): In the absence of the honourable member, Madam Speaker, I wonder if the House would permit this matter to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed.

The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside, and the proposed motion in amendment thereto of the Honourable the Minister with out Portfolio. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I hope I don't disappoint anyone by speaking to this resolution, but I'm in a bit of a predicament, Madam Speaker, because of the nature of the amendment.

I desire to speak to the whole of the resolution; the amendment just deals with the inclusion of one word, the word "final." So I think, Madam Speaker, in order to properly observe the rules of debate I should say my final word and say I agree with the amendment and once the amendment is carried then I will pursue the debate as amended. I'm sure, or at least as I understood the proposer of the resolution the other day said that he was perfectly prepared and willing to have the word "final" included in the resolution, and when that is done then I hope to make a contribution to the debate.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The main motion standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside -- (Interjection) -- as amended. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker -- (Interjection) --.T hat's unusual for me, isn't it? Madam Speaker, I rise to support the resolution as proposed by the Honourable Member for Lake side. In doing so, Madam Speaker, I think we in this House have to look very very closely at rules of procedure, and also, if I may, Madam Speaker, at decisions which may have been made in the past by previous Speakers.

I did think for a moment, Madam Speaker, in all due deference to yourself, of trying or attempting to amend the resolution of the Member for Lakeside by including a ruling that Your Honour made the other day which was supported by the House, because it was of a similar nature, if not identical, to the rulings that we have under debate. However, again observing the rules of the House I dismissed the idea of amending the resolution because I would be treading on the rule of the House of revival of debates already taken place in this Session. So I could not do that.

But I merely say that, Madam Speaker, to point out that the content matter of the resolution includes such decisions as was made by this House and Your Honour the other day. Madam Speaker, it seems to me what should be our guide, and has been the guide of parliamentary procedure ever since parliaments were born, was the application of a consid erable amount of common sense to the rule.s of debate in order that debate may be conducted on a high level, and that there would be rules of the game laid down so all could understand them, and also so that the process of democracy might be enhanced.

I say this, Madam Speaker, not with any idea of belittling the Speakers whose rulings we are considering today, but rather an attempt to establish, Madam Speaker, if we carried through to its logical conclusion the results of the decision that Speakers previously have made, in effect what would March lOth, 1964, Page 921

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... happen would be that a Committee of the House which is set up could indeed decide on all of the activities of this Legislative Assembly. You will recall, Madam Speaker, just the other day -- as a matter of fact I believe it was yesterday -- that the Honourable the Minister of Health introduced a resolution setting up a committee to investigate into the matter of dental services within the Province of Manitoba. This committee, Madam Speaker, is going to be a committee of nine, and it is going to makear eport to this House subsequently as to its findings and as to its recommendations.

If we look closely at this resolution and follow it through to a logical conclusion based on previous decisions vhich are under debate at the present time, we would find that this committee in the important subject of dental health, could make a report, a final report to this House, and unless the House, as suggested by the previous decisions of Mr. Speakers, unless the House reconstituted the committee, the decisions of that committee would be final and binding on this Legislature.

Similarly, Madam Speaker, we're going to have before us as recorded in Votes and Proceedings, which we just received a while ago --we 're going to have a very important resolution before this Assembly and before all the people of the Province of Manitoba in connection with the public school and private school situation. 'Here too, again, Madam Speaker, we are going to have set up by this Assembly a committee, in accordance with the resolution, comprising of nine members who will be making a report to this Legislature.

If the House on the receipt of that report consider it as a final report, then on the basis of the findings of Mr. Speakers previously, the subject matter would die then and the rest of the members of the House would not have an opportunity of debating the question because of the decision that once a final report is made in this Assembly, then it cannot be recommitted back to the committee and only one of two things can happen: either concurred in or not concurred in. I respectfully suggest, Madam Speaker, that this is not proper.

Now I will not deal with the question of the decision of the 0ther day, dealing with the livestock, for reasons I've already mentioned to you, Madam Speaker. May I first of all in dealing with the actual resolution before us go back to the original decision that was made by Mr. Speaker Bachynsky, and which was subseqUBntly referred by the Honourable the Minister without Portfolio when he was Speaker. The Honourable the Minister without Portfolio speaking the other day men tioned the fact that there was no challenging of Mr. Speaker Bachynsky' s ruling at that time.

And if one takes a look at the Joumals for 1957 on Page 53, where this matter is referred to, one will find that there wasn't any challenge. My honourable friend the Minister without Portfolio the other day sort of mildly chastised the present Member for Lakeside because of the fact that -- as we are well aware -- he, the Member for Lake side being the Premier at the time, did not raise the question as to the ruling of Mr. Speaker Bachynsky. But, Madam Speaker, it's also recorded in the Journals of 1957 that neither did anyone else -- (Interjection) -- No. I was just coming to that.

Neither did anybody else, Madam Speaker, challenge the ruling and it was only a suggestion because here, here is what it says: "Mr. Turner moved that the report be received, whereupon Mr. Roblin suggested that the report be not received but referred back to committee in order to alter the terms of reference; and a debate arising and Messrs. Roblin, Stinson and Turner having spoken Mr.

Speaker ruled that a select special com mittee ceases to exist at the moment of its final report." Now it's most important, Madam Speaker, when we go back to this decision and the position of the then Leader of the House - and what he would have done I certainly am not going to guess -- had the decision of Mr. , or the suggested decision, in effect, of Mr. Speaker Bachynsky been challenged. We cannot go back in retrospect and positively decide what the action of the then House Leader would have been. But the very vital point, Madam Speaker, is that the Speaker's ruling was not challenged.

That there was not am otion to refer back to the committee but merely a suggestion. And in the Joumais for 1957 that I am referring to, there is a footnote to Mr. Speaker's ruling, see Beauchesne citation 555. Now citation 555 in the third edition of Beauchesne is similar to the ruling that has been used in this House in the fourth edition namely, ruling 286 . And in this ruling Madam Speaker, there are the words that were formerly in 550 of the third edition: "A select special committee ceases to exist on the moment it's final report is presented to the House.

The report cannot afterward be sent back to the committee with in structions to amend it in any particular. If further proceedings are desirable it is necessary Page 922 March lOth, 1964 .

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... to revive the committee." May I respectfully suggest to you Your Honour that we have to look very, very closely at what we mean by a final report, because I suggest in all due respect that a report cannot be final until such times as the members concerned, namely all of the members of the House, have had an opportunity to take part and make a contribution to what that final report shall be; and if we construe in the rules of order the word "final" as meaning simply the receipt of that report in this House, then I suggest Madam Speaker, we are violating the prin�iples of democracy.

But further than this Madam Speaker, I referred to Beauchesne's fourth edition 286. May I suggest that we also take a look at Beauchesne's fourth edition rule 326, which says: "a report of a Standing Committee should be considered final only when it is adopted by the House." That is when the report is final I suggest Madam Speaker, because citation 326 goes on to say, "because until then the House can refer it back to the committee with instruc tions to amend it in any particular." And I suggest Madam Speaker, that this is the proper procedure and the one that should take precedence over rule 186.

And why do I say this Madam Speaker, when one is considering the due process of democracy? I say this because it is impossible under the rules of debate and parliamentary procedure for a minority report to arise out of a committee, for if we look at rule 319 in the fourth edition of Beauchesne, it distinctly states that no minority report should be made to the House.

Now surely, surely no one would ever suggest in the rules of procedure in parliamentary democracy that the rights of the minority should be trampled on without them having the right of expression, and also the right to be able to convince the majority of their reasons for being a minority. And if we construe, as has been construed on the occasions referred to, that the final report is the report when it first comes into this committee, then the rights of the minority can never be given due consideration and the minority can never, as they can in the committee, attempt to influence the majority.

So I suggest Madam Speaker, that there are points that must be taken into consideration. Recapitulation, Madam Speaker: I say to you that we have to look at more than just the one law or one rule that has been used to guide the rulings of the speakers that are the subject of the debate here today. Now Madam Speaker, may I also respectfully suggest this, that there is nothing wrong for a speaker to reverse a decision of the speaker that lk1.s been made in the past.

This has been done on numerous occasions, when after a decision by a speaker has been made, indeed as this has been on three different occasions, for another speaker to come along and say, "While I agree with the usual precedence that is given to former rulings, I think that they were wrong. " I respectfully suggest to you Madam Speaker and to this House, because this is a matter now for the House to decide. You, may I suggest did have an opportunity the other day, Madam Speaker -- but I say that now that this resolution is before the House this is a decision that the House has got to make.

It's true, it's true that you Madam, or a subsequent Speaker can on a similar occasion say, "well I've looked it over and I've changed my mind and I'm going to set aside the precedence of the past ruling," but I respectfully suggest that you should not be placed into this position -- although I do say that it would be a correct one for you to be placed into -- and if you make a decision in accordance with a resolution that we had before us, I'm sure that you would be right.

But I say the situation now is Madam Speaker, that the question is before the House and I want to appeal, I want to appeal to the majority of the members of this House to support the contention of the Honourable Member for Lakeside in the resolution that we have before us. In conclusion Madam Speaker, I think that I have pointed out to you and through you to this House sufficient evidence in Beauchesne No. 4 to substantiate the position taken by the Honourable Member for Lake side.

I think that I have substantiated in accordance with the rules that it is not possible to have a minority report from a committee; that the only way that that committee's report can be changed is by it going back to the committee with instructions from the House; and if this is not done then the minority has no rights at all.

I think that I can establish that with the Committee on the Dental Services as proposed by the Minister of Health, the contemplated resolution as being proposed by the First Minister of the House, that if these committee reports were handled in exactly the same way, as a basis on which these decisions have been made, then nine individuals, or even five Madam Speaker, because five March lOth, 1964 . Page 923

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd) .. . would constitute the majority of the committee report, that this would be construed as the decision that is going to bind this House on the important matters of Dental Health and Shared Services if agreed upon in the Province of Manitoba. For that reason Madam Speaker, I implore this House to discount the previous deci sions that were based on rule 286; to go along a little bit further and to look at rule No. 326 to arrive at the decision.

Reference has been made Madam Speaker, to our own little red book dealing with the receiving of reports from Standing and Special Co:inrnittees, and I respectfully suggest to you that there is nothing contained within our own rules particularly - I ask you to take a second look at rule 73 which states, "a report from a committee shall not be amended by the House but it may be referred back to the committee ." And I suggest Madam Speaker, that this is only proper and that the decisions in the past that have been based on rule 286 are a violation of the principles of democracy.

And having said this so straight forthly Madam Speaker, I want to say that I appreciate and realize the difficulties that Madam Speaker or Mr. Speaker have sometimes in making decisions. I am sure -- I am sure that if the Members of this House will reflect back to the decision that was made in 1957 -- which was only a suggestion -- and which Mr . Speaker Bachynsky just gave a ruling I would suggest "off the cuff, " but it was contained in the Journals that established the procedure and the precedence was wrong. In conclusion , once again Madam Speaker, I appeal to the House .

On this matter we are not dealing with the question of political parties but the conduct of the House, the orderly pursuit of the business of the House, and I respectfully suggest -- while I don't agree w"ith him very often -- in this, I most wholeheartedly support the conventions and the resolution as proposed by the Honourable Member from Lakeside and recommend it to the House . Madam Speaker put the question. MR . LYON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce the debate be adjourned.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead, the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): In the absence of the Minister, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask for the item to stand . But I am sure if other members wish to speak that would be most agreeable to us. MADAM SPEAKER: Any other member wishing to speak? Agreed to have it stand? The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside.

The Honourable the Member for Brandon. MR . LISSAMAN: Madam Speaker, usually when the Honourable Member for Lakeside speaks I find a great deal of enjoyment listening to his down-to -earth practical common sense. However, as he made his proposal of this resolution I found myself becoming more impatient than I thought I would be to point out some of the things that I believe the Honourable Member has overlooked .

Now while I personally think the resolution is not of any great consequence -- it is simply asking this House to urge the federal government to do something -- nevertheless, it would probably display that this House, if the resolution carried it would probably display that this House hadn't considered many of the facts pertaining to the Metric System, and I would suggest that the honourable member's resolution shows a rather sketchy appreciation of this particular subject because he emphasizes repeatedly goodwill, and prosperity, world travel, and then he mentions that the United Kingdom, the United States and Canada though legalizing that system, has not officially adopted the metric system.

Well, there are many reasons why the metric system has not been adopted and I propose to touch on one or two but the resolution suggests that not much action has been taken, or much conference has been made over the matter of the metric system . I must admit that in our library here, and amo_ng my books at home I found very little dealing with what the real problem is in this matter. But in passing I might say that from reports in our library, I found that a meeting of the Special Committee on Metric and Inch Systems held in Ottawa, October 10, 1963, the chairman was Mr. D.

Gentry, discussed first, a report of a survey carried out by the National Research Page 924 March lOth, 1964.

(Mr. Lissaman, cont'd) ... Council for the Canadian Conference of Education and covering the use of metric measurements by Canadian industry, was discussed. And secondly, several documents covering investigations being carried out in the U. S .A. on this subject were also reviewed. Then another meeting on November 27th, 1963, points out that a paper prepared in the United States proposing a more complete system of decimalized measurements supplement the proposed ASA B87 decimal inch standard was reviewed.

It was generally agreed that if the present units of measurements are to be discarded, there are many advantages in the use of m.k .s. international system units rather than developing an additional system. It is important I think, to realize this, that the U.S. Department of Commerce Federal Weights and Measure Laws show that in 1866 Congress approved passing a law legalizing the metric system of weights, and measures and including tables of legal equivalents for metric units in weights and measures customarily in use in the United States. So that this is not a problem that has been of recent origin .

In 1875 from the Encyclopaedia Britannica there was constituted at Paris the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, which is managed by an international committee -- the object of this bureau was to make and provide prototypes of metre and kilogram for various subscribing countries. Then from Van No strand Scientific Encyclopaedia there is a history of the origin of the metric system, which I won't bore the members of this House·with but the concluding paragraph is worth noting.

They say, "While the metric system has come into general use throughout Continental EuropeB.nd most of the civilized world, it has yet to gain general recognition in Great Britain and the United States for other than scientific reasons." Now, I think that no one would dispute the sheer value of the scientific reasons and if we take a look at what we might call the newer industries, the electronic industry, radio and television, we will find that their measurements are in the metric order .

There certainly is a great deal of advantage in plain simple calculations in a decimal system rather than a system in which you might use as a comparison, the English pounds, shillings. and pence as compared to our dollars and cents, and I think all members would be quite able to see at a glance the advantage of this system. But I recall reading some number of years ago, and I'm certain it was in Popular Science, an

article dealing with the actual problems of changing over to a metric system . And while unfortunately, I have about 20 years of that magazine on my shelf, because I used to be a contributor to it, and have kept in touch but I only have a sort of sketchy index of things that I was particularly interested in and I didn't have anything on this, although I spent some time looking. I could probably spend three or four days trying to find the particular magazine.

But the facts are that I must appeal to the imagination of the members to realize what a tremendous task this is of changing over because of the lack of easily available facts of the situation. Now a small idea of the problems involved can be just obtained in comparing the nuts and bolts for example on the British car and our American bolts. Nuts and bolts on American cars are usually U.S. standard or fine; the British are the Wentworth system.

Now while you may have a bolt with a thread of the same pitch, which is the spiral travel, the number of revolu tions per inch -- the pitch may be the same but the angle of the thread is different under the Wentworth as compared to the U. S. National or U. S. fine. So that you have this -- garage men repeatedly run up against it -- and if you try to fit an American nut on an English bolt you will discover what I mean. It's quite a problem.

Now imagine just changing either one of the automotive systems, or manufacturing procedures in either country to the other and you can imagine some problem is involved in getting down to uniformity. But when we come to the metric system, then we have a really tremendous problem and one that I can only conclude from the facts, that over all these years men have seen the desir ability of the metric system, have shied away from it because of the simple fact that the costs were far beyond the reach, the practical reach of the industries.

I would suppose from what knowledge I have of machines that many quite sizeable companies would probably go bankrupt in effecting the change. I suppose a lot of the machine tools could have the micrometer feed dials on them, lathes and so on, changed along with the feed screws that adjust the feed of the machine to a metric system, but if you stop to consider the cost of just changing over the specifications and measurements of the internal combustion engine alone, the cost-would be March lOth, 1964. Page 925

(!VIr. Lissaman, cont'd) ... astronomical, almost impossible to believe. I think you will recall some of the problems that arose during wartime -- what a problem it was for Americans to get into production on certain items, machines of war during the past war.

There can be simply little comprehension in the average mind what this cost could be, but on top of this tremendous cost of changing over all these specifications, and the cost of course which could be born of changing all the actual measurements -- the physical specimens of measurements, which are kept by nations and by great companies, probably more carefully than gold in their vaults -- to preserve the exact physical dimensions of the measurements; and these specimens are made of special metal and must be measured at constant temperatures and so on.

Beyond this and all the cost of this change -- then think of this added cost that during this period of change you would have to maintain two standards of measurements because during the life of the machines that we are now using, which are calculated and measured on the inch system -- over to a metric system, some of these machine tools have a life, I would hazard a guess of 20 to 40 years. I have an old lathe -- I don't suppose industry would use it -- but I have an old lathe that I get a lot of fun out of iron turning, that is at least 60 years old.

The company that manufactured it hasn't manufactured lathes for ye'ars. They are making drill presses now. But imagine the cost of maintaining two systems. We •d have to keep repair parts for machines and automobiles until the present ones had lived their normal life and been th.c Nil to the scrap heap. So during this time we would have the double cost of maintaining these two systems and the waste and duplication.

So that all in all, Madam Speaker, while it sounds quite plausible and certainly from an arithmetical point of view, most advantageous to shift to a metric system, I'm afraid if you got down to the actual practical problems involved, then you would find that these are the reasons that industry in Great Britain, the United States and Canada has not been able to adopt the metric system. The newer industries as I have said that have grown up more or less in our lifetime, do use the metric system but, the older established industries I'm afraid would find that it would bankrupt many and costs would be prohibitive.

MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I'd like to say a few words on the metric system in that I do think there is a 'l."reat deal of merit in encouraging its use in Canada. It seems that in Canada we are looking forward to the export of our products. We also find that the American manufacturers are looking to foreign exports.

Now, we in Canada and the United States have to realize that in Europe countries like Germany, France and England to a limited extent, because England has got the dual system, were possibly the pioneers as far as exports are concerned into the undeveloped nations of Africa and South America.

Now speaking from a practical experience, if you purchase any equipment from Germany I today, and which we in Canada do purchase to a large extent, we find that they have to manu- facture and design equipment that will fit into our Canadian standards, consequently in Germany you have a dual system -- you have the metric system and then you have the inch and foot system which we have in Canada. However, if you are ordering a piece of German equipment to be built according to our measurements, there is an added charge to it.

Now, Germany by the same token can build and eJ�.-port the same type of equipment to Arabia, or to the Argentine, in the metric system and this does place the Canadian manufacturer, or the American manu- facturer of a similar product at a disadvantage.

Now I appreciate what was said about the matter of different threads cut on standard bolts, but the fact of the matter is that we have got both of these systems in existence today and I think you can draw a very harsh comparison, not so much the inconvenience we will suffer in Canada as it is the inconvenience that some of these underdeveloped countries will suffer, and are suffering under a dual system. Because on the one hand if they purchase material from Germany, and this is under the metric system, and if they're not lmowledgeable enough, which usually they are not, they will purchase an

article from Canada with the understanding, or feeling in their own mind that it is going to be a duplicate of what they had say from Germany. When this piece of equipment or material arrives they find that either the thread or the specifications as far as dimensions are concerned are different. And I want to tell you that when you are ordering al1Ything from the metric system countries you have to check, double check and recheck your specificatimis on equipment because Page 926 March lOth, 1964.

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) ... it is so likely to come out and be the wrong dimension. Now I do think that if we had a universal type of metric system, because whether we want to admit it or not Canada and the United States do not form the largest percentage of export equipment that's being manufactured today, that is using the metric system. It is interesting to know that in the scientific field most of your calculations such as, if you use kilogram calories instead of using horsepower which we understand as our standard, that everything works out on a decimal of ten.

It is so much easier to work out a kilogram calory in calculations, and whether it's a scientific calculation or whether it's a calculation on per mill units, or whether it's a calculation in terms of electricity, this is really a very simple way to remember energy and work with it. For instance, I might ask the average member in this House, "What is a mill rate on electricity? Or what is known as a kilowatt hour of electricity? What is known as a horsepower of electrici ty?" and I think that most of us, or most of the members in this House would have to admit that they really don't know.

Now under the metric system this is very simple because you have got the multiple of ten and it's very easy to work out. In all our exports outside Canada and the United States we're always talking of long tons. Now a long ton is very close to the metric ton. And here again, all of us who are interested in the export trade have got to look for our handbook and make a calculation, or if it isn't that we have to make a calculation, be able to read the corresponding table in order to find out what it is in terms of short tons; in terms of pmmds in order to arrive at the proper cost of the

article to know what we should quote on the export market. Now I happen to have a brochure on the Petroleum Service of the World, and it is most interesting that they invariably give you the metric system right along. Then, of course, they give you the conversion factor, which then in turn gives us the ounces or pounds or short ton versus the metric ton.

I think that really in the final analysis this resolution has got a great deal of merit and I think that although we as a provincial government are sug gesting it, I do think that our federal government could well take this into consideration in view of the fact that everybody from the senior government to each provincial government is so very much interested in the export of our materials to other countries. -And I think that a large percen tage of the stumbling block that the average Canadian exporter runs into, aside from exporting to the United States, is the fact that our measurements and our weight are different.

Whether it's Greece makes a bid for some chemicals to Canada, it is always expressed in the metric ton, and, as I say again, you have to translate this as to what it means in short tons. This is the sort of thing that I think is confusing and unless an individual has had some experience in the field of working with the metric system and being able to convert it into our own system, the likelihood is that he will say, "Oh well why should I be bothered trying to get this export trade when everything seems to be such a difficult thing to overcome.

" On this one point alone this is what most exports in Canada encounter and it is the smaller export that is really the export that the average government today is interested in increasing his output in order to have a chance to get into the export trade. Now you take in South America, whether it's Venezuela or Brazil, or the Argentine, or Chile, these countries are getting to be very large users of machinery, chemicals -- a lot of things that we in Canada have got -- and all of them carry their negotiations and want their quotations in terms of the metric system.

The new countries in Africa, especially those that were under the control of the French Nation, and you only need to have a look at the comparison of those countries that are asso ciated with France, and in Africa, that the dollar value of export from France today is almost equal to the export trade of the United States in any one year. This is a staggering comparison because all of us leak upon the United States as being such a giant in the field of International trade -- and which they are.

So that although at first sight and looking at this thing casually you may say that it has no significance; you may say, "Why do we in Canada want to discuss this matter?" But then on the other hand we in Canada are interested in building up our industry; we're interested in building up our export trade and therefore it is most necessary to try and get a uniform method of weights and measures; and because we are in the minority I do think that it would be an excellent idea on our part to join in with the metric system.

I know that you may say that it is only used in the scientific field -- the average high school student who takes chemistry and physics and then goes on to university has to be conversant with both methods March lOth, 1964. Page 927

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) .. . of weights and scales -- but it would be a lot better if we had the one standard, and it is for this reason, Madam Speaker, that I would -- whatever the method may be -- that I would like to add this observation in that, if Canada wants to have a good export market and make sure we do not lose any part of it I do think that we can further our exports by a large percent age increa se by adopting the metric syst em. Thank you. Madam Speaker put the question . MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, if no one else is wanting to speak I would adjourn the debate.

MADAM SPEAKER: Any other member wishing to speak? The Honourable Member for Lake side . MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Selkirk that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER : The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable the Member for Souris-L ansdowne . MR. M. E. McK ELLAR (Souris-Lansdow ne) : Madam Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agr eed.

The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. The Honourable the Member for St. James. MR . D. M. STANES (St. James) : Madam Speaker, I wish to join with the Honourable Member for Assiniboia in pride for our recent developments in St. James and Assiniboia. Beautiful homes have been built, individually and part of attractive home developments. In fact we have one builder out there who has just recently won for the SBcond time, the first time in Canada, one of the top awards for home developments, home planning, and so on. We are all justly proud .

Also in the developments of residential homes in the Greater Winnipeg area. We also realize that these home developments do bring a number of problems -- problems creating services, roads, sewers, and so on. And these things unfortunately follow along after the homes have been developed and often occupied . Unfortunately a number of these developments, these services rather, cannot be put in at first when they are needed because a number depend on other servic es. For example, roads require first, sewage, drainage and so on.

So with these developments, of which we are so proud, there are a number of growing pains which are somewhat tiresome and very expensive to solve. Now none of these things are new to any of us in this House ; we are all fully aware of it -- the Government of Manitoba, the Honourable Minis ter of Public Works and his staff are also fully aware of these problems and are doing their utmost to supply these developments with services of the 20th century standards. This particular problem on which the resolu tion touches is similar to this case.

This area has developed rapidly, beautifully, but unfortunately some of the services are by necessity not meeting the need at the very first moment that they may be required. In this particular instance it's because the road for example as mentioned in this resolution, cannot be supplied until all the storm sewers are installed. Consequently this resolution at this time could not be fulfilled. I have checked with the Rural Municipality of Assiniboia and they are fully aware, of course, and this is where I got the information.

So consequently the first part of the resolution at this time could not be fulfilled by this department. However , plans are well advanced and it is possible at this time to fulfill part of this. Similarly on the other part of the resolution, Madam Speaker, it is not possible at the first demand to supply cloverleafs and two level crossings, because in order to do that it is first necessary to deter mine the extent of the demand.

As you are aware, Madam, the north part of the perimeter highway has not yet been developed and consequently it is not possible to know the extent of the traffic and the type of traffic which will be using this crossing. I will say that plans for such a crossing I understand from the department are well developed but it is not possible to finalize those plans until this information is available.

Therefore in view of this factual and accurate information Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Churchill that the resolution be amended -- that all the words after "whereas" in the first line be deleted and the following subs tituted therefor: "At least six traffic lanes divided are now available on Portage Avenue from School Road Page 928 March lOth, 1964. I

(Mr. Stanes, cont'd) ... East through the rural municipality of Assiniboia and the City of St. James.; and

whereas construction from School Road West was impractical until storm sewers were provided ; and

whereas the rural municipality of Assiniboia has now completed the instal lation of storm sewers on Portage Avenue between School Road and David Street; and

whereas traffic in this area has increased with the rapid growth of the municipality of Assiniboia; and

whereas the forty-two days racing season during the summer months at Assiniboia Downs and the construction of the Odeon -Morton Drive-in Theatre has added considerably to the traffic on Portage Avenue west making present facilities inadequate at certain times; and

whereas the growth of traffic in this area would indicate the necessity of a grade separation at the junction of PTH No. 1 and the West Perimeter in the near future; therefore

be it resolved that this Government consider the advisability of providing during the coming construction season six traffic lanes on Portage Avenue between School Road and David Street, three Eastbound and three Westbound with a median divider, and that it continue to purchase right-of -way to facilitate the construction of a grade separation as the need dictates. MADAM SPE AKER: ..... . the Honourable the Member for St. James. MR . M.N. HRYHORC ZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains) : Madam Speaker on a point of order, that's a completely new resolution. It isn't an amendment to the resolution that is before the House.

I doubt whether that amendment is in order . MR . ROBLIN: ...... with consideration it will be found in order because it clearly is an amending resolution. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) : Madam Speaker, I would like to adjourn debate, seconded by the Member for Assiniboia. MADAM SPE AKER : I must go back to the main motion. MR . ROBLIN: I suggest Madam Speaker, that we have now before us the main motion as amended -- declare that carried.

The Honourable Member wishes to adjourn the main motion as amended which I take it we would be glad to oblige him. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the main motion as amended. MR . ROBLIN: Now go ahead. MR . JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. John's. MR . SAUL CH ERNIACK, Q.C. (St.

John's) : Madam Speaker, I ask leave of the House to allow this matter to stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for St. John's. The Honourable the Member for Souris-Lansdowne. MR . McKELLAR: Madam Speaker, as used car dealers are already licensed there seems little use for the request in this resolution.

It is very likely this committee to be set up on Highway Safety will look into this matter of used car dealers selling used cars that are safe for the highway and that the matter of bonding will in all likelihood be gone into; therefore I propose to vote against this resolution. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? MR . PAULLEY : Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster that debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for St. John's. The Honourable the Member for Wellington. MR . P. J. Me DONALD (Turtle Mountain) : Madam Speaker, in the absence of the honourable member, I would like to have the indulgence of the House to have this stand please. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. John's. MR . CHER NIACK: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood,

whereas marriages conceived in haste and without adequate counselling often result in unhappy and unfortunate domestic problems harmful to the individuals involved and to society ; March lOth, 1964 . Page 929

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) ... therefore

be it resolved that the Government give consideration to amending The Marriage Act to provide that just as medical certificates are prerequisite to the issuance of marriage licenses , so should there be a requir ement for a certificate that the applicants for license have had an interview with any one of the following: a Minister, Teacher, Medical Practitioner or Social Worker. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR.

CHERNI ACK: Madam Speaker, the first day that this resolution appeared on the Order Paper I was very much surprised and amazed by the coincidence which found on the desk of everyone of members present a pamphlet dealing with questions and answers concern ing marriage licenses. It was a remarkable coincidence as I say that it was here, but it seemed to indicate the desire on someone's part to make us aware of questions that are asked and answers that are provided by the Division of Vital Statistics .

If one looked carefully at the expression of the girl who I in1agine was addressing the questions, one realized that she was somewhat concerned and somewhat worried about what she was facing ; so that in reading the answers to the questions I had hoped that some of her doubts and some of her problems may have been dealt with; but-I found that the answers given to the questions that they thought she would ask are answers relating to the technical aspects of the law relating to wheth�r or not she could obtain a marriage license and thus be married.

So I realize that this pamphlet was probably distributed in order to indicate to us that the real questions which a person ought to ask herself were not in here and it seemed to me that this was an encouragement to me to carry on with the resolution which I had brought forward.

Furthermore, I was happy to note that on the last page of this pamphlet there are two thirds of a page which is blank, which indicates that there is enough room to fill in the addi tional information which I hope can be given to persons interested in obtaining a marriage license after the amendment which I am suggesting should be passed, will be passed. We have had occasion Madam Speaker, to debate this session the question of the divorce law and I intentionally stood this matter over so that we could free ourselves of the problems raised by that resolution and deal with this one.

But towards the conclusion of that debate there was an indication given by a certain number of members present that they felt there had not been sufficient study given to the problem of divorce -- adequate study should be given , adequate investigation should be made. There was not adequate evidence before us that entitled us to deal with that question and we heard a great deal also about the sanctity of the marriage contract.

Well Madam Speaker, in Manitoba, in order to enter into a marriage contract you can do so at age 18 or older without the consent of your parents ; if you are 16 or over and there is a pregnancy involved with the possibility of illegitimacy, then there is no need to obtain consent -- and thus a 16 year old girl who can produce a medical certificate to the effect that she is pregnant, may obtain a marriage license and m:J.y be married without the consent of her parents; and indeed a boy or girl under the age of 16 may also be married in this province, providing that the parent's consent was given and a medical certificate was produced to the effect that pregnancy was involved.

So that we have the possibility of a marriage taking place of a 16 year old without the consent or indeed necessarily without the knowledge of her parents and the possibility of parents being able to consent to a marriage of a person under 16.

The requirements for marriage, other than what I have already described relating to consent or proof of pregnancy, are of course that a person must have a prospective spouse and that that person must have $5. 00 to obtain a license and I suppose, something with which to pay the person who is performing the ceremony; and a person must also be able to produce a cer tificate relating to venereal disease or rather the absence of it.

But other than that there is no reference anywhere in the Act, nor in the method of administering the handling of marriage licenses, to consider whether or not the couple contemplating marriage is adequately prepared in any way for the problems which face a married couple .

We know that people who want to drive motor vehicles in this province must pass a test which is rigoro us , .. and which we all approve of; we know that people who are in certain trades must pass certain tests in order to be able to handle whatever task they are performing -- I think a person looking after a high pressure . boiler in a heating system must have a certain certificate to show that he has passed proper tests and examinations.

Persons who practise professions , teachers , doctors, nurses, must all prove that they are properly prepared to undertake the task which they propose to perform -- Page 930 March lOth, 1964.

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) ... but the preparation for marriage in this province is one which is not dealt with at all in my opinion under the Act as we know it today. The results Madam Speaker, are that many marriages take place between people who are inadequately prepared for the problems which they are bound to face.

Questions of economic ability to look after a home, or to establish a separate home; questions of compata bil ity ; questions of maturity are matters which are not necessarily considered -- indeed, many times a marriage will take place merely because of a pregnancy and rather not prevented in spite of it.

Many times social pressures of the young people are brought to bear on them where they are made to feel that the attractiveness of an early marriage is somethi ng that they must immediately rush into in order to get all the benefits derived therefrom , and yet they are not properly warned of the responsibilities whfch will accrue to young couples who decide that they are ready for marriage. I am told , Madam Speaker, that Mr.

Max Ferguson, who is known as Rawhide , took occasion to spend some portion of his time on the radio with a skit -- the Honourable the Min ister of Mines and Resou rces and the Honourable the First Minister both apparently were fans of Rawhide's on that occasion because both mentioned to me that they heard this program - and it was apparently a nice light airy thing with certain facetious overtones.

Not having heard it, I won't comment too much --I won't comment too much -- I won't comment at all about it except to say that I am pleased that the matter apparently was considered of sufficient interest and importance to be reported in newspapers outside of this province so that it came to the attention of Mr. Ferguson, presumably in Toronto.

The Tribune also gave this matter suf ficient attention to have a short editorial on it on February 29th, where they speak of, in part, -- I'd like to read from it: "Any man who tries to introduce an element of commonsense into courtship and marriage deserves sympathetic attention and supporting cries.

It is beside the point that a similar reaction is aroused by the sight of a person drifting in a row boat towards Niagara Falls." Whether the editor saw me drifting towards Niagara Falls, or whether he saw this couple whose marriage is about to take place drifting towards Niagara Falls is for him to decide , but the reaction is clearly expressed. The editorial conclu des: "But the trouble is" and I'm quoting , "that parents for thousands of years have been counselling their sons and daughters about getting involved with callow youths and empty headed boy chasers.

Would a certificate alter the course of the ..... or of true love? " Well it's I suppose funny to some people that some attempt is being made to suggest that couples should be in some way prepared for marriage; I suppose it is easy to say there's no use trying it because it's not feasible.

I must say, in spite of what the editor of the Winnipeg Tribune had to say, that having had an occasion to discuss this matter with various people whose opinions I respect, and amongst whom I can list an Anglican minister, a United Church minister, a Roman Catholic priest, and social workers, that all of them felt that there was some value in what I had to suggest. So in spite of what the Tribune seems to have thought I intend to continue to ask the attention of this House to this matter.

And now I want to disillusion some of the people who jumped to conclusions about what I had in mind, because as I read the Tribune editorial and what I hear of what was commented on by Mr. Ferguson, there was some idea apparently that I wanted a rigorous mental ability test to be administered to these people and to prevent their marriage should they not succeed in doing that.

Where and how they came to this conclusion is beyond my knowledge, Madam Speaker, because the resolution clearly reads: "That there be a certificate given that the applicants for license have had an interview with any one of" and I list a number of occupations of people whose certificate I think would be of value. And that exactly, Madam Speaker, is what I have in mind at this stage. I don't want, and I hope that this resolution will not be brushed aside as being impractical .

I hope that people won't get up and say, "You are living in a dream where you think you can control the destinies of yotmg people." I hope that no one will get up and say, "If you prevent them from getting married they will go through the form of marriage in some other way and they will end up in a society which will reject them. " Madam Speaker, my suggestion is simple. I feel that many young people, many people of all ages who are about to enter into the marital state would be well advised to have to think several times about what they are going to do.

And I feel that just as much as we debated earlier this Session the advisability or not of making divorce easier because of the situations that have March lOth, 1964. Page 931

(IV Ir. Cherniack, cont'd) ... occurred, I think it would be worthwhile making marri age just a little bit tougher, just a little bit more difficult so that the people who are about to step into that stage are warned as much as we can possibly do.

Therefore , I feel that rather than say you must undertake a course of six weeks of premarital counselling, or you must have a certain number of hours of lectures on this matter , if people don't want to listen, they won't listen, and you can't get a couple to sit and pay attention to something like that if they are not inclined to do so, or are not mentally equipped to do so.

But all I have in mind is that there should be the necess ity for this couple to be interviewed by somebody who has some amount of training; who would be able to point out to them those features in marri age which they must be aware of before they step into that contract and who will be able to advise them that they ought to take premarital counselling; that they ought to think deeply and carefully about the step which they are about to take.

And once having done that, Madam Speaker, I feel that we cannot longer force them to continue to go through the farce of a training if having been exposed to the ideas involved, they reject them . So I am not saying for a moment that they have to have a ce rtificate saying they have passed an exam of any kind.

I want only to make sure that just that additional little obstacle to a marria ge, that little bit of impediment that they have to overcome, that they have at least had to have an interview with a person who has been able to talk to them and try to convince them that they must think ca refully before they do it . In the Ca tholic Church and I believe , but I don't know, in the Anglican Church there is the need I believe to have bans read for some two or three weeks preceed ing a marriage . - - (Interjection) -- I said Anglicans as well .

I know that there are many ministers who before they agree to marry a couple insist on having, possibly just exactly the kind of interview that I am suggesting is advisable; and all I am saying in this resolution is , let us make sure it is done in all cases and not at the whim of one or another of the persons who will be performing the marri age .

I have scribbled out, Madam Speaker, the kind of a certificate that I contemplate could be possible as attached to an applica tion for marri age license , something to the effect as follows, and I quote from my scribbling: "I hereby cer tify that on the blank day of blank I did interview Mr . so and so and Miss , or Mrs . so and so -- the names of the couple -- who advise me that they are planning to apply for a marri age license and I have had an opportunity to suggest to them that they consider a marital counselling course , or some form of pre marital preparation ." That would be the type of certific ate that I think that could be req ue sted of them and would at least make it just a little bit tougher to get married in haste .

Now , Madam Speaker, I suppose I could have brought this suggestion forward in the nature of a bill . I didn't do that because I hope that this resolution will pass. I hope it will be accepted by the government benches as an attitude which they can adopt in considering this problem, so that hopefully next year , or even later in this session they can come along with a concrete accep tance of what I am putting forward in a sort of general proposal . It may be that they will want to consult as to the manner of it -- they may want to consult people with a great deal of experience in domestic affairs.

Whatever is involved in the in vestigation that they would want to make , I would urge them to ac_cept the idea which I am proposing very simply in this resolution, and that is that before a license is given a certificate be obtained from somebody trained in some way to give advice , cautioning people about to be married that they should consider carefully the contract which they are about to undertake. MR. MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon, the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carrie d.

Page 932 March lOth, 1964 I •

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed res olution standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood, MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks , that

whereas 37 firearm ac cidents took place in Manitoba from January 6 , 1963, to January 5, 1964, of which five were fatal; and

whereas in over half of these ac cidents the shooter was under the age of 18; therefore be it res olved that the Government consider

(1) The feasibility of requiring the registra tion of firearms in the names of the owners thereof.

(2) The pass ing of legislation imposing civil liability on the registered owner of a firearm in volved in an ac cident for damages caused by the negligence of the persons disch arging such firearms on the same basis as the liability imposed on the owner of an autom obile involved in an accident. Madam Speaker put the question, MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, I had intended to stand this res olution over again but it has been on the Order Paper for such a long time and I want to get it on the way where we can discuss this at length.

I found it quite interesting since putting this resol ution on the Order Paper, and going about gathering information of what actually is happening in this province as far as firearms are concerned. I started going to different department stores, to places where you could buy rifle s; I asked the people if a person, or a child of 14 years of age came into the store if they would sell him one. Some of the people didn •t know whethe'r they were allowed to sell that firearm or not.

Othe rs did know that by Dominion regulations as long as you are 1 6 years of age or over you can go into a store and buy a high-powered rifle . They don 't ask you any questions ; the only thing they do is register your name and address. They don't give you any instruction on how to handle that firearm - - I went to places and asked them and I told them I had never owned a firearm, and I said 11 Where can I get instructions to handle this firearm and handle it safely? 11 11 0h, " they said, "there •s nothing to it.

If you just take it like this and push the shell in here -- it can only go in one way -- and you push this and you push that, or, " he says, "if you want anything else you can get literature and it will tell you different things. 11 11 Well, " I said, "isn 't there some place where the government has a school or any gun clubs where they have instruction or anything like that ? 11 He says, 11 We!l, not any that I know of. " --(I nterjection)-- Well, I know there are gun clubs but I asked this person how you got there and get instructions, They didn't know.

I think that when they are given the opportunity of sell ing firearms, then they should be well versed in the problem of where to send people to know how to handle a firearm and everything in connection of sa fely handling the se firearms, As I said, Madam Speaker, the only regulation that there is for for the sa le of firearms is Domin ion regula tions, Federal Government regulations saying that you have to be at least 16 years of age , I tried to find here in our regulations under our provincial la ws, what age you had to be before you could buy a hunting licence and apparently there is no age limit at all.

For all I !mow you could be 10 years old and if you've got the price of a hunting licence, they will sell you one. This is wrong because, Madam Speaker, last year we were given the report of the Firearms Safety Inquiry and they ma de certain recomm endations, and all the rest of it, and I don 1t think the government has studied this report at all.

I could go through this report and read them all out but I don't think I should have to do that, Madam Speaker, as all the members have had an opportunity to read this report, and they can recheck it for their own satisfaction, and that is the reaso n, Madam Speaker, that I think that all purchasers of firearms should have to have that firearm registered in their name, the same as your automobile is, and that they sh ould be responsible for that firearm .

Therefore, if I have a firearm that is registered in my name and I let anyone use that firearm, and they get involved in an accident, I would be held responsible because I am giving that person authority to use a dangerous weapon the same as an automobile is. I have an autom obile. It 's registered in my name, If I give it to anyone to use and they go out and get involved in an accident, I am held responsible, and it should be so with a firearm, because people are getting far too carel ess with firearm s.

You can go out into these lake areas in the summer time where there is not supposed to be any shoo ting on Sunday at all, and so metimes you think that a war has broken out with all the firing that is going on on a Sunday. I don't know why this is allowed to carry on -- haven •t we got enough rangers and people out there to check on these things ? It is g�tting out of hand and I think this is the time, March lOth, 1964 , Pa ge 933

(Mr. Peters cont 'd) •....•• Madam Speaker, that we should take a very close look at this reso lut ion and check into it. I note that the one thing in this recommen dation that I thought that the governm ent should take in, and if som ebody wanted to add this on to my resol ution or amend it in that way -- it is resol ution No. 16, and it says: "It is recomm ended that seri ous thought be given to require a hunting licence applicant to show proof of financial respons ibility before being is sued a licence.

" I didn't take a look at this soon enough, Madam Speaker, or I would have added that in mysel f, and I think that it is up to somebody on the governm ent's side to amend my resol ution putting this in. I have much mor e to say, Madam Speaker, and there is more information that I am gath ering yet, or I'm writing to different provi nce s, to different state s, and as the information becomes available I'll use it when I' m closing the debate on my resol ution. That is all I wish to say at this time, Madam Speaker. MR. JAMES H.

BILTON (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I move, seco nded by the Hon ourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the debate now be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the mo tion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed res olution of the Honourable the Member for La Veren drye . The Honourable the Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. P. J. McDONALD: Madam Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to have this stand, plea se '? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed res olution of the Honourable the Member for Gladstone .

The Honourable the Member for Dufferin. MR. WILLIAM H. HAlVIILTON (Dufferin): Madam Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand? MADAM SPEAKE R: Agreed. The adjourned deb ate on the proposed res olution of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. The Honourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre. MRS. CAROL YNE MORRISON (Pembina): In the absence of the Honourable Member, Madam Speaker, I ask the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The proposed res olution standing in the name of the Hon ourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand pl ease ? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The proposed resol ution standing in the name of the Honour able the Member for Br okenhead . MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I beg to mo ve , seco nded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that,

Whereas our own "Rules of Proced ure 11 of this Legislature give formal rec ognition to leaders of opposition parties in this Asse mbly, (q. v._ Page 16 Rule 33); And

whereas The Election Act gives similar rec ognition to Parties which poll a certain perce ntage of the total vote cast in the prov ince ; And

whereas

Section 60 of The Legislative Assemb ly Act provides for an extra em olum ent to be paid to the leader of only one such party in the opp osi tion; Therefore

be it resolved that this House is of the opinion that

Section 60 of The Legisla tive Assem bly Act be amended by insert ing the following bracketed letters and words in that

section as shown below: For each ses sion of the Legislature there shall be allowed and pay able to the me mber(

s) reco gnized by the Speaker as occupying the po sition(

s) of Leader(

s) of the Opposition (Partie s), the sum provided in the estima tes for the (Le aders of the Opposition Parties). Madam Speaker pres ented the motion. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, during the introduction of the estimates in this Chamber a few weeks ago I did take advantage of the opportunity to raise this matter and my views are contained in Hansard of that day.

Therefore it is not my intention to speak at length to this res oluti on at this time, but my reaso n for spons oring the res olution is to bring it before the members of this Assemb ly in a formal way so that they may speak to the motion and to have their vote s cast either for or against the proposal. As I said it is not my intention to speak at length but there are a few rem arks which I did not make at the time which I would like to ex pr ess now. It seems to me that first of all, that we do not have, regardl ess of how desirable it may Page 934 March lOth, 1964. I

(Mr . Schreyer cont1d) ..... be, we do not have a two party system functioning in this country nor in this provinc e. And since we do have three and four parties functioning in some of the provinces and at the federal level, it seem s no more than rea listic to acknowledge that this is the fact of the ma tter. Once we realize and accept that this is the re ality of the situation, it seems to me that we should be broadminded enough and fa ir-m inded enough to provide the nec essa ry em olument to acc ompany the respons ibility placed on the shoulders of those who are leaders of the newer and the smaller

partie s. It is not enough to sa y that we don't like the idea that there is a third and a fourth party. The fact is there are, and the fact is that the work - and there is an extra burden involved -- does come to rest on the shoulders of certain individu als in this Chamber, just as it does on the shoulders of the leaders of the newer parties in the House of Commo ns. The re they have found them selves broad-minded enough and fair -minded enough to acknowledge reality by legislating and providing for, providing an extra monetary re cognition, an extra em olument.

It is time that we think ser iously of doing the same thing here. May I sugge st to my honourable friends that if they are not at all pleased with the fact that there are a third and a fourth party, then it is up to them to do their utmost to ma ke sure that there aren't repres entatives of the third and fourth parties here after the next election. But in the mea ntim e, and as long as people in the province find it th eir better judgment to vote for third and fourth

partie s, and to send repres entatives of them to the Assembl y, it is no more than right, no mo re than fair that we accord to them rec ognition such as we do to the Leader of the Opposition . . But of course in turn, and also in proportion sal ary-w ise, it has always been held by leaders in public life that one of the greatest obstacles to the effective carrying out of their duties has been monetary worry.

Now I' m not suggesting that my honourable leader is having any kind of monetary worries but it certainly would help if first of all, if me mbers of the legis lature are adequately paid, and that is why we do from time to time have bills come before us which increase the indemnities paid to ordinary members. Well, it is in the sa me spirit that I suggest that we ma ke some sort of formal provi sion here for an increase to be paid to the leader of this party and the party represented by the Member for Rhineland.

And the only fair way, I suggest, is to do this proportionately so that the leader of this group would receive an extra allowance that would be seven thirteenths of that paid to the Leader of the Off ici ;::l Opp osition, and the Member for Rhineland would rece ive one -thirteenth of that amount. And honourable members, the more they ponder and reflect upon what we are asking for, what I am asking for in this reso lution, will find that it does not offend their judgment and their sense of what is just comm o n courtesy.

Cert ainly it 's true that me mbers here and the public gener ally come to expect from the Leader of the Opposition a certain so mething extra, and it 's equally true that members here and members of the public come to expect som ething also a little extra from the leaders of the other

partie s, and I think it can be said in all fai rness that each of these gentlemen does per form acc ordingly. There is an extra burden on them ; they do work longer hours than do any of us who do not share that kind of work load or responsi bility . Therefor e, Madam Speaker, they should be considered when it comes to pay an extra allowance, and therefore I would not only recommen d this res olution to members but I would plead and implore that they put aside their petty political quibbling and think about this in the broader and more just framework of what is involved in parliam entary democracy.

MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. ROB UN: Madam Speaker, I think my honourable friend opposite wa nts to adjourn the debate. MR. CHERNIACK: Madam Speaker, I did want to say som ething though. I was not prepared to adjourn the deba te because, Madam Speaker, I would have liked very much to have heard what honourable me mbers other than the one who has spoken had to suggest about this ma tter.

I am still relatively new in this House and not fully familiar with the method in which members con sider the res olutions presented to them , but I can only therefore express disappointment that this ma tter alm ost came to a vote without having heard the expressions by other me mbers of this House on what they thought about the reso lution and why they intended to vote in the way they did. I would have hoped that the people who elect us and send us here would know just why it is that people vote the way they do, so that in the future they ma y consider how well they have March lOth, 1964 . Page 93 5

(Mr. Cherniack cont1d) •.... voted in the past. I would have hoped to have heard re ally the reasons why people plan to vote as they do. If there is no other debate on this matter, then can it be that everybody is in agreem ent with what has been said by the mover of the re solution? MR. ROBIJN: Madam Speaker, if no one else cares to speak at this time, I would be happy to take the adjournment, seco nded by my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I almost said the Leader of the Opposition. Madam Speaker pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the mo tion carried. MR. JAMES T. MILLS (Kildonan) pres ented Bill No. 49,

an Act to incorpora te The Red River Exhibition Assoc iation, for seco nd re ading, Madam Speaker pres ented the motion. MR. MILLS: Madam Speaker, the petitioners for the grant of a private bill incorpora ting The Red River Ass ociation have applied for such a Bill for three reaso ns: (

a) The prestige of being incorporated purs uant to a special act, (

b) that it is doubtful whetherThe Red River Exhi bition Associa tion is properly const ituted under

part 5 of The Companies Act of Manitoba, (

c) Even if properly incorporated under

part 5 of The Manitoba Co mpanies Act neverthele ss the powers are not sufficient for the purpos es of the assoc iation. Madam Speaker I would like to de fine and explain the definition of "pres tige " in (a). At one time except for the rare specia l charter such as in the case of the Hudson Bay Com pany, The East India Compa ny, all companies were incorporated under a special act. In order to allow the general public to incorpor ate without expense or bother of a special act general in corporation statutes were passed such as The Co mpanies Act of Manitoba.

These are intended to be used "in the common situation such as in the case of a commerc ial operation, private clubs and similar organizations. The Red River Exhibition Associa tion is an organization for the bene fit of the whole provi nce , and accordingly, it should have the prestige of being incorporated by a special act, not under the provisions of a general act, (

b) Is the pres ent company properly in corporat ed? The Red River Exhibition Assoc iation was incorporated under

part 5 of The Com panies Act,

Section 115 thereof provides that the Provincial Secretary may is sue lette rs patent for the cre ation of a corpora tion to carry on without pe cuniary gain the obj ects of -- and they are all listed here : (

a) national character; (

b) patriotic character; (

c) religious character; (

d) philanthropic character; (

e) charitable character ; (

f) scientific character ; (

g) artistic character; (

h) social; (

i) prof essio nal; and (

j) spor ting character -'--lots of character. There is a question whether the objects of The Red River Exhibition Ass ociation fall within any of the foregoing categor ies. This

section goes on to add 11 or the like. 11 11 In the option of the Counsel for the Asso ciation, or the like, 11 may very well refer to similar objects to those set out above which would not assist the Associa tion. Acc ordingly, there is a legal question as to whether the comp any has a right to carry on as

part 5 company, which is the only provision that the compa ny can, in fact, utilize it since it is not used as a jo int stock co mpany which issues share s. (

c) Their powers are not adequate . Even if The Red River Exhibition Assoc iation is proper ly co nstituted under

part 5 of The Companies Act, it is submitted that the powers granted to it are too restrict ive to allow it to carry on business. Ancillary powers are not given; general voting powers are not given; and there are many other powers which are required by a company which are not given under

part 5 of The Co mpanies Act of Manitoba. The Reel River Exhibition under its present charter is also restricted to its investment to real es tate to the amount of $200, 00 0,0 0, It is hoped that over the next ten years The Red River Exhibition Assoc iation will have real estate holdings worth in. excess of $3 million. The bill for which the approval is now required spells out the objects of thin Ass ociation and gives it powers normally to be found in other jurisd ictions re spe cting companies of this nature . To sum marize, Madam Chairman, therefore, the reaso ns are that this Statute is required: (

a) prest ige ; (

b) to rem ove any legal question as to the proper incorpor ation thereof; (

c) to give the compa ny all the requisite powers require d to carry on a business in a legal manner. MR. JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker, would the honourable member accept a question ? D.oes the sp orting aspects of this proposal me an an extension of racing or going into racing? MR. MILLS: Madam Speaker, I underst and that the duration of racing right now is only 42 days, and the racing firms in town now take up the 42 days .. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the member because this was Page 936 March lOth , 1964.

{Mr . Molgat cont 'd) ...• .. a matter of a great deal of discussio n some years ago here in the House, this matter of the number of racing days and the present Premier was partic ularly vocal on the subject, and I•d like to know what the stand is now. Is this going to add to the number of racing days in Winnip eg or not? MR. MILLS: I understand, Madam Speaker, this will not, unless another Law is passed increasing the 42 days and they may take advantage to it then. lVIADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, if I may, I have another question.

Is it not correct that there are at present some charters, some charters in existence that would permit raci ng and which could be used by anyone who got control of those charters, and presum ably this organiz a tion could. Is this not so? MR. MI LLS: This, Madam Speaker, I cannot answer. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. RICHARD SEABO RN (Wellington) presented Bill No. 25,

an Act to amend

An Act to incorporate "Winnipe g Bible Institute and College of Theology", for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. SEABORN: Madam Speaker, this Bill is to amend an original Act that was in this House in 1948 incorporating the Winnipeg Bible Institute and College of Theology. Originally, the school operated on two levels, the Institute which required Grade XI or less and the College which required senior matriculation. The Institute now has come to the college level so actually the two schools do not exist any more.

The Bible Institution wants to affiliate and become recog nized by an accredited Bible College in the States, and one of the requirements is that the name should reflect the singleness of its purpose. Therefore, the Board of Directors are asking for this amendment to facilitate the rec ognition by this accrediting organization. I understand that the name has been completely investig ated and does not conflict with any other name of any other college in Manitoba. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE Q. C. (Selkirk) presented Bill No. 61,

an Act respecting the Holding of Real Prope rty by The Manitoba and Northwestern Ontario Provincial Comm and of . the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada and Units of the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada, for second reading, Madam Speaker presented the motion, MR. HILLHOU SE : Madam Speaker, I think the title of the Bill is self-explanatory, All that it does, it gives to the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans of Canada and the Provincial Comma nd as well, the power to hold real estate in the Province of Manito ba.

It is the same type of bill as that which was enacted in this Legislature some 14 years ago in respect of the Royal Canadian Legion. Madam Speaker put the questi on and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, MR. LISSAMAN presented Bill No, 51,

an Act to amend

An Act to incorporate Brandon Golf and Country Club, for second reading, Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. LISSAMAN : Madam Chairman, the reason for the amendment to this Act si mply hinges about the joining together of the Wheat City Curling Club with the Brandon Golf and Coun try Club.

They have constructed a real asset to the City of Brandon in the form of a fine club house and curling rink adjoined, and part of the obligation required the making available to the members of the Wheat City Curling Club, at least the previous members of the Wheat City Cur ling Club, a total of 240 shares, and so this increases the capital and com mon shares in these orders set forth in the Bill to permit this to occur. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. CO W AN presented Bill No. 75,

An Act respecting North West Trust Company, for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. CO'.N AN: Madam Speaker, tl1is Bill will enable North West Trust Company, which is an Edmonton company, to carry on busine ss in Manitoba. It is perhaps encouraging to note that this company had assets of only $200, 000 in 1958 and today it has assets of $14 mi llion. I think it is encouraging in view of the opposition that comes from long established trust companies that March lOth, 1964. Page 937

(iVfr. C owan cont 'd) ....• have their head offices in eastern Canada. This company initially will be managing the old Great West Life Buildings and the new 20-story apartment block on the north side of Central Park. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBilN: Madam Speaker, we have now reached government busine ss on the Order Paper and I would appreciate it if you would call the two Addresses for Papers and the Order for Return that the Honourable the Member for St.

George was kind enough to stand at my request earlier on today so that we might, I trust, dispose of these. 1\'IADAM SPEAKER: Address for Papers standing in the name of the Honourable the Mem- ber for St. George. • MR. GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Em erson, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor for copies of all letters, circulars and pamphlets sent to employees of Manitoba Hydro during 1963, rela tive to the Grand Rapids project. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR.

ROBilN: The one asking for all letters, circulars and pamphlets, Madam Speaker, as a rule, governments do not accept order for internal correspondence of this sort, but I•ve had a word with my honourable friend and I understand that he would be happy if we produced all letters, circulars and pamphlets of a general circl;lation to employees of the depart;�rnt, and if that is suitable to him we would be very happy to accept that Ord er. MR. G UTTORMSON: I 'm prepared to accept the conditions offered by the First Minis ter .

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. 1V1ADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. George . MR. GUTTORMS ON: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerso n, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for copies of all correspond ence between the Government of Manitoba, its Board or Commissions, and Drake-Pearson and/ or Drake Construct ion and/ or persons acting on behalf of Drake-Pears on or Drake Construction during 1963. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR.

RO BLIN: Madam Speaker, I am asleep at the switch here. I spoke to my honourable friend and suggested we would be glad to accept his Order but we would not repeat any of the docum ents previously given. It would be any material subsequent to last year 's Order on the same subject. I understand that is agreeable. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carrie d. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. George. MR.

GUTTO RMSON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerso n, that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: 1. What was the total tonnage hauled in 1963 by Drake-Pearso n under the original water haulage contract. 2. What price was paid per ton. 3. What tonnage in excess of this contract was hauled in 1963 by Drake Pearson. 4. What was the price paid per ton for this tonnage . 5. What tonnage was hauled by other water carriers during the summer of 1963 for The Government of Manitoba and/ or the Manitoba Hydro. 6.

What tonnage was hauled by road to Grand Rapids during 1963 for the acc ount of the Manitoba Hydro and/ or the Manitoba Government. 7 . What was the price paid per ton. 8. Was this done by contract awarded by public tender. 9. What was the tonnage hauled by road in 1960, 1961, 196 2, for the ac count of Manitoba Hydro and/or the Manitoba Government. 10. What price was paid per ton each year. 11. What price per ton was paid to Drake-Pearson for hauling material from Grand Rapids to Norway House during 1963 . 12. What was the mater ial hauled. 13.

Will water transport be required for the Nelson River Development. 14 . If water transport is required, are steps being taken by the Government to acquire their own water transport. 15. Did the Government of Manitoba or any of its boards or commissi ons negotiate any other such water contract with Drake-Pearso n or Drake Construction, such as aggregate, pulpwood, limestone, etc. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBilN: Madam Speaker, we will be glad to accept the Order except with respect to questions 13 and 14, which bear on future policy which of course we are not able to answer.

Page 938 March lOth, 1964 .

MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, just let me look at that question. I suppose if the Minister says it deals with policy I have no alternative anyway but to accept it, so I• m ag reed. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the mo tion carried. MR. ROB IJN: Madam Speaker, I now suggest that we proceed to the -- well, I was going to sa y to the Budget Debate , but I see the Honourable Member for Rhineland -- I think you had better call the order anyway because I think it is of some value to call it even if we can 't get anybody to speak on it.

MADAM SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First l\IIinister and the proposed amendmen t of the Leader of the Opposition and the proposed amend ment to the amendment of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. The Honol,U"able the Member for Rhlneland. MR. ROBIJN: Well, the honourable me mber isn' t here so I suppose we •ll have to stand it again unless some bright soul would care to continue this debate, Madam Speake r. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder may be, Madam Speaker, if the First Minister be cajoled into spe aking at this ti me. MR. ROBIJN: No, I don 1t think that 's very likely.

I have my regular place to take and I think I should observe the traditi ons . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member wish to speak on the debate ? Agreed then that the ma tter should stand ? MR . ROBIJN: Now, Madam Speaker, perhaps we could have the Dental Resolution stand ing on the Orde r Paper. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed res olution of the Honourable the l\IIinister of Hea lth. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR .

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I would ask the indulgence of the House to have the ma t- ter stand, but I have no objection whatever to anyone else speaking on the subject. MADAM SPE AKE R: Does any other mem ber wish to speak on this subject? Agreed to have it stand? MR. RO BIJ N: I would now ask you to cal l Bill No. 37, please. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the se cond reading of a proposed motion of the Honourable the lVIiPister of Publi c Utilities. The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. ROBERT G. SME LLIE Q.

C. (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle -Russel l): Madam Speaker I beg the indulgence of the House to have this ma tter stand. 1\IIR. ROBIJN: I have to admit I thought I was going to hear a speech, Madam Speaker, but I see I' m not. Well we could now hopefully go on to Bill No. 38. MADAM SPEAKE R: Adjourned debate on the seco nd reading of Bill No. 38 -- or the adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities. The Honourable the Member for St. Boniface. MR. GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, ma y we have the indulgence o£ the House to have this ma tter stand. MR.

MOLG A T: Madam Speaker, I really think that you should simply call it 5: 30. MR. ROBLIN: Well, we •ve exhausted all the other it ems on the Order Paper, Madam Speaker, so I would now appreciate it if you would allow me to put the motion to go into supply. I mo ve , seco nded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Maje sty.

Madam Speaker pres ented the mo tion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the Hous e reso lved itself into a Com mittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St . Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department VII -- 5. Administration of Justice -- MR. HILLHOUSE: I am like the Attorney-General, I am not an authority on juvenile delinquency, but at the sa me tim e, unlike the Attorney-General, I believe that there is one bet in respect of juvenile delinquency which we are mis sing.

The Honourable Attorney-G eneral speaking last nig ht truthfully stated that there was only a very sma ll percentage of the youth of this province could be ri ghtly termed delinquents, and the ma jo r:ty of the youth in this province March lOth, 1964. Page 939

(lV!r. Hillhouse cont'd) ..... were decent, honest, good-living citizen s. I agree with them, but I believe, Mr. Chairman, that we are mi ss ing a bet in respect of the good youth of this province in not trying to use them in connection with the delinquents. The other day when I was speaking on the res olution on lowering the voting age, I refer red to the experim ent which was conducted by a Munici pal Judge in Jacksonville, Florida.

I would like to refer to that ma tter again, not because I fe el that it could be used in Manitoba, because in Manitoba we are in the unfortunate position of having a federal act dealing with juvenile delinquency and it may not be pos sible lmder the terms of that act to adopt the proced ure which was adopted by that Municipal Judge in Florida, but at the same time I think the idea of that youth jury which was adopted by that Judge in Florida mig ht perhaps give the com mittee som e ideas as to the use to which the good youth of this province mi ght be put.

I think perhaps it mi ght have a treme ndous psychological effect on those who are delinquents. Now I have before me a copy of the Readers ' Digest of September, 1963, and on Page 66 -- this deals with the situation which existed in Jacks onville, Forida, in the summer of 1962 - and it says: "In the summe r of 1962, Judge Santora was increas ingly disturbed by the muggings, gang fights, robberie s, speeding while drunk cases, and other law-breaking by teenag ers . Par ents in mo st cases were either belligerent and produced highly paid counsel, or were entirely indiff erent.

I sim ply don't know what to do said the judge in a newspape r interview at the tim e. There was little react ion from the adult citizenry, but the youth council on civic affai rs of Jack sonville had been started a few months before by a group of energetic high school students . They had found conditions in their city disgracef ul and wanted to clean up. They also knew that all teenagers were taking the rap for the actions of a mi nority, "Their Executive Director, Ernest Evans, went to Judge Santora and suggested the crea tion of a teenage jury for the Municipal Court.

Of the two hundred council members , about forty had vollmteered for a jury panel from which six at a time would ser ve in court. The ma gistrate was hesitant. There was no preced ent for such procedure he said, sensible though it sounded, and a youth jury would have no legal authority .' But we have a strong psychological one ', said Evans. •That you would', replied the judge . •All right, prece dent or no, let •s try it. ' "The psychological effect of the youth jury is evident. I was in court one day when a negro youngster was charged on a charge of shoplifting.

During the testimony the girl glanced frequent ly at the young juror s. She had all sort of excuses , In the superm arket she had inadve rtently, she said, stuffed so me food into her handbag and forgotten to pay for it. The jurors were stoney faced, •You mai ntain that you are innocen t? ' asked Judge Santora. The girl eyed the jurors again. •No sir •, she said quietly, 'l'm guilty. ' •How does the jury find? r asked the ma gistrate , The jury deliberated. •Three days and restitution of goods, YoliT Honour •, annOlmced a tall police negro, •So be it ', sa ys the judge .

"Th e youth jury has invented an unusual sort of sentence, week-end nights in the em ergen cy ward of the Duval County Medical Centre. Here the ma imed or dying victims of automobile collisions, knife -fights, and other violence are brought in, usually bloody, and often screami ng in agony, •It •s rough, I know •, Evans told me, 'for a kid to see a crushed or torn body, a muti lated corpse , But it teaches them much more than a jail sentence. They see the results of what they have done, or might have done . We haven' t had a single repeater amo ng the kids who have been educated by this kind of se eing.

This is re ality, and they don •t forget it '. " Now, as I said, I doubt very much if we could adopt that system in Mani toba, but neverthe less I do feel that we could, and with great psychological effect, ma ke greater use of the youth of this province who are good citizens in trying to rehabilitate and to change those who are de linquents. I don 't think that asking the help of the good youth of this province is going to cost us any $17 mi llion, but I do think that it would have a great practical effect and I do believe that it should be tried.

Now I think the Attorney-General will agree with me - - I think everybody agre es with me that one of the greatest problems we have today in connection with juvenile delinquency is pre vention, and the greatest problem in respect of prevention is how are we going to prevent it. Recently, I think it was in December, 1962 , the Department of Justice, Otta wa, invited briefs from the various age ncies throughout Ca nada in respect of the growth of juvenile delinquency in Ca nada, and there was a brief submitted to the Department of Justice by the Ca nadian Cor rections Ass ocia tion . Page 940 March lOth, 1964.

(Mr . Hillhouse cont•d) ....•• Now, if I may, I would like to read Recommendation 1 of that brief. No doubt the Attor ney-General has read it, but this Recommendation 1 says: 11 It is essential that mo re emphasis be put on prevention, and the necessary facilities and techniques to make prevention possi ble should be expanded and, where necessary, developed. It should be stressed that the treatment and re-education of delinquents is in itself a form of prevention. Our whole appr oach to the juvenile has been an effort to prevent beginning problems from developing into permanent adult problems.

However, these preventative efforts should be extended back to the period before the delinquent behaviour has actually begun. The avoidance of suffering and the saving in huma n and financial resources that would result if juvenile delinquency could be reduced in this way is obvious, yet these potentialit ies are po orly exploited in mo st Ca nadian commu nities. " The brief goes on and then it finishes up with three points in connection with prevention, and these point s are: "(

a) Preventative work in most commu nities is handi capped by a lack of co- ordination and co-operation among the large number of agencies and organizations involved. Aims and standards differ and there is simul taneousl y an overlapping of some services and gap s which no agency covers. Various solutions to this problem are being experimented with in Ca na dian communities. Some cities have developed youth bureaus under various names for the purpose of bringing about some kind of co-ordination. In other cities, local planning coun cils have undertaken this task.

One fact that militates against the common solution is the very pattern of services from one com munity to anoth er. What will work in one commu nity may not work elsewhere. Whatever the solution is, each community must find it before prevention can become effective. Provincial governments might help this process by establishing provincial co-ordinating councils to give leadership and consultation to the communities. (

b) A system of early identification of potential delinquents must be worked out in each community . This is essential if preventive act ion i'S_ to be taken. The school is the obvious agency to do mos t of this early identification since it is the only agency in the community that sees all children, and at an age early enough to ma ke preventive treatment feasible . However, all community agen cies must be sensitive to this responsibility.

" Now if I might digress for a mo ment, some years ago in the town of Selkirk we did start up a purely voluntary organization which was organized by the medical superintendent of the Mental Hospital there by one of the probation officers, one of the social workers, and a public health nurse. The public health nurse and the social worker, through their contact with the school children, came in contact through the teachers with behaviour problems among certain children.

They invest igated these problems, and I feel quite sa fe to sa y that due to the preven tative work which that voluntary agency did, and in respect of which the parents co-operated, I feel reasonably certain to say that there was a lot of these children who were developing into delinquents, at least a pattern of delinquency, who were sa ved from that. And I believe that that is one method that we could use in this province to great advantage , and I think that we have the facilities in this pr ovince ready at hand.

In most of the communities in Manitoba today we have health unit s, we have public nurses, we have so cial workers, we have probation officers, and I believe, and I would urge that the Attorney-General see if it would not be possi ble to set up these various agencies throughout the province and see if som ething can •t be done towards curbing a problem which is becoming progressively worse.

Now this brief goes on to sa y: 11 A community agency must be developed that will accept referrals of these potential problem children, and offer the kind of service that will prevent the undesirable habit pattern from developing further. " Now there is a great number of other recommendation s made by the Canadian Corrections Ass ociation to the Departmental Commi ttee set up by the Minister of Justice. I won •t go into them beca use they largely deal with federal ma tters .

They deal with certain amendments to The Juvenile Delinquency Act and I know that the Minister is familiar with what these recom mendations are. But I feel, Mr. Chairman, and I feel very keenly, that the biggest problem we have in this province today is not our adult offenders, I think the biggest proble

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-36
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 36.pdf
Language	en
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