Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-8EVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MARCH 24, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 36

!-larch 24, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.~f. Nr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Tape No. 1390 Order. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: J'AR. DOODY: !1r. Speaker, if I may on a point of privilege. 'IR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Finance. NM- 1 ~1R. DOODY: Daily News In an item in this morning's edition of the St. John's under the heading of A High and Windy Hill there is a message in there that says, "Shoot the Queen," and the author of the column says, "I am past the stage, which lasted most of the winter, when I' 11 hite anyone's head off who comes within range.

Now I'll just nod without comprehension at whatever is being said. Go to London and shoot the Oueen, as Mr. Doody suggested to the legislature (not, I should point out, in the form of a resolution on the order paper)? " I would like to make it quite clear, Sir, that I had no intention at any time of going to Londong to shoot the Queen or nor do I have any animosity toward the Queen. As a matter of fact, despite my Irish heritage and background I have a great respect for the Queen and great respect for the Monarchy.

I think it is very irresponsible and insulting to the people whom I represent, to myself and to this hon. House that such an item as this should appear in the local press and I 1~ould like to register that, Sir, with this hon. House, As for the reporter, or so-called reporter who would print this sort of thing, I will leave it to the people of this hon. House to make up their own mind about the disposition of such a person, "'R. WELLS: 'fR.. DOODY: You are saying then that you did not say this, Of course I did not do it. I have no intention of shoot:lng th~ Queen.

Eamon De Valera, one of my heros would not suggest that he shoot the Queen. ~W. SPEAKER (DR. COLLLINS): The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I know it is not in order to debate or reply to a matter privilege of the House, which in this case I consider it to be,and since I brought this matter to the attention of the Minister 3713

~l arch 24, 1976 Tape No. 1390 NM - 2 MR. ROWE~ of F.inance, I was asked the eCJnsent of the House to speak to this particular matter. Sir, . this to my mind is one of the most despicable pieees of what-! suppose you can call it reporting, that we have seen go into a newspaper regarding what goes on in the Legislature here. It is an insqlt - MR. NEAR'Y: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. ROWE: I asked for consent, Sir. MR . NEARY: I just want to get Your Honour's ruling on whether or not a point of privilege raised bY an honourable mel!lber is debatable, Sir?

If it is then, .we all, I think, should have the privilege of getting Up and entering tuto the debate. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, 1 do not think it was a debate. I think that the bon. member opposite was endorsing the re.marks o.f my point. :t-fR. SPEAXER (DR. COLLINS) : Ox:der, please, I do not eons11ier a point of order to be before the House becal).se the bon. Minister of F:l,nance raised on .a point of privilege, which takes precedent over all other matters. ~1R. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) -: rR:.. NEARY: Mr. Spea~r, The bon. - 371C

!-'arch 24, 1976 Tape 1391 PK- 1 11R. NEARY: the minister is finished with his point of privilege. }1R. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! NR. NEARY: The minister is finished ~1R. SPEAKER (DR.COLLINS): Order, please! The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, 11r. Speaker, we quite often in the House of Assembly - HR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, this is unheard of! }1R. F. ROWE : !-lr.

Speaker, I asked for consent to reply to the matter of privilege before the House simply because of the fact that I did bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Finance, and out of courtesy I suggested that he raised the matter further rather than myself, because it involves his name. But it involves the honour and integrity of this House, and it is insulting to this Eouse.

And, Sir, if this is the type of thing that the people of Newfoundland r,ot to be subjected to, and this is the sort of thing that the people of Newfoundland arc. given the impression of what goes on in this !louse, T endorse the comments of the hon. Minister of Finance that we flick that particular reporter right out of the Press J;allery altogether,or 1ve have the Fress Association or the Association of the Press consider in bringing this matter up, because it is despicable, insulting indeed to this !:ouse of Assef'lhly.

And, Sir, the, most il'lportant reason I I·Janted to rise here is because quite often <~e have gripes with the press and PC shout hack and forth thnt y0u are attacking the press.

Hell in this C<'l~e, ~ir., t:lis j s one time 1.1hen I ~rill stand with the hon. gentleman opposite and attack a certain member of the press 1 with this proviso that you might find, you knm1, a couple of rotten apples in the barrel, and this docs not apply to every member of the press, but this is a rlenpicable cisplay by one member of the press and I suggest that the Press /,ssociatioa, whatever they call themselves, take this matter into consitleration with thr vjev of removing that gentl~man fro!!'. the Press Gallery. 'ffi. \JI:LLS: On a point of order, if it be a point of order, but to the Hl,ole "'atter, }<r.

Spenker, - S71S

H<1rch 24, 1976 Tape 1391 PK - 2 MR. P..O\<'E: ---- To a point of privilege. HR. HELLS: ----- To the point of privilege. I would suggest then that Your Tlonour in consultation particularly with the Hinister of Finance Hho was the person mentioned in the remarks take it up vith the press corps or the Press Gallery to see if some appropriate method can he '~orkcd out \Jhereby this particular instance can be dealt with. I do not think that we should now sort of make motions. Perhaps an apolor;y would suffice, This '~e do not know. Tloe hon. mel'lber lvill have to express himself on that.

But I do not think it should be just left here. I think it should be taken up with the Press. '· ~. SPEAK:CR (DR. COLLINS): If it is the wish of the House we will take up the 11:atter as suggested by the hc·n. House Leader. Is this the wish of the House? '·!R. SHALL WOOD: 1!r. Speaker, let us hesitate in this thing. Let the press be completely free and of somebody offends that is a mere one-tenth of one per cent of what is in the papers day after day and on the air. Let us not be sensitive. I agree completely with the hon. minister.

But I do not agree that we should do anything about censorship or censoring or punishing or - HR. WELLS: Should there not be a reprimand? MR. SHALLWOOD: Well , let us not. MR. SP:CAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr . Speaker, I am inclined to agree with my han. colleague the member for Twillingate. This is a matter, Sir, that He should move very, very carefully on. Mr.

Speaker, I have to say that in my fourteen years in this House I think we have established a precedent toady where a member stands and says, he brought something to the attention of a member and then he was allowed to enter into debate on it. That is a new precedent in this han. House, Sir. llut I know hm• the hon. ~1inister of Finance feels, Sir. He had a recourse to stand in this House, raise a point of personal privilege, and that will be taken note of, and I am sure it will be reported and corrected in the news media. The minister may argue,well.the 371&

}1arch 24, 1976 Tape 1391 PK - 3 dam<'.ge is clone, it is too late to rectify the situation. Well, Sir, you knm~, that is the way it works. And the minister has made his point. I do not think we should go any further. I do not believe in discipling or censoring the members of the Press in this House should feel just as free as members on the floor of the House, and should not be - 2Q_ IE HON. HEI·!BERS: Oh, oh! }1R. NEARY: They should, Sir, 3717

:!arcll 2..4, 1976 Tape no. 1392. Page 1 - tiM t··r. :~e.'\ ry . just as free, jus t as cotafortable in this House 35 cembers of the ltouse, 3nd I certainly do not think that anybody should get the flick or that we should talk on the floor of this Uouse about giving anybody t!1e Click ,especially members who are not down here 011 the floor able to defend themselves. I do not know what happened or how thls t hin& ~ ~ - DOODY: They ar~ doubling the guard at Buckingham Palace. r u~ . tmt.RY: 1 beg your pardon? ~{R . DOODY: They are doubling the guard at Buckingham Palace . l'!R. NEARY: They are doublin~ the guard.

The minister is fairly witty, Sir, fairly witty. tlaybe he made a witty remnrk that was misinterpreted , but I am sure, Sir, on his point of privilege today he has made his point and the matter should jus t rest at that. ~~ . SP~~R (Dr. Collins) : Order , please! It is my understanding that the House agre ed that the Chair should make arrangements to discuss this mat t er with the Press }tssocia tion , and I believe I have read the feeling of tile :louse correctly i., that matter. ~:R . NEARY: ~!R . ROWE: NR. NEARY: Can that we put to a vote, Sir? Can we vote on that? No vo t e .

You know, you do not own the Rouse . There are other members in the House besides the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (:<r . Rowe) . l·:R. ROiffi: The hon . Speaker asked for agreement. MR. NEARY: Two members spoke against it. 3718·

Harch 24, 1976 Tape no. 1392 Page 2 - mw PRESENTING PETITIONS: HR.. SPEAKER : The hen. member for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I will not take up any time of the House in presenting this petition. However, I do not want to minimize the importance of this petition either, but similar petitions have been presented, and the points made in support of these petitions. I refer to the petition that was presented some days ago by the hen. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary),and also from Conception Bay South (Hr. Nolan). Sir, this is a petition from the Anglican Church Women's Association of Eastport.

And the prayer of this petition is that we in this honourable !louse support the diocesan council in their efforts in protesting the extensive showing of scenes on television involving social drinking and the serving of alcoholic beverages. As I said I think the two membess in presenting their petitions certainly made the valid points that I would want to make, and I just want to say, Sir, that I whole-heartedly support and endorse the prayer of this petition, and I think again the member from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) pointed out that though is a federal matter, that the procedure generally is to put the petition before the liouse and have it placed with the appropriate department and sent to the appropriate federal agencies. Sir, on that basis I ask to have the p~tition placed on the table of the House. l'llt. SPEA.l<ER (Dr. Collins) : The han. member for Harbour Grace. ~m. YOUNG; Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of - not voters - twenty-one householders in the town of Upper Island C•1Ve i~ an area known as the Meadow~ The prayer of the petition is for a sewer sy~: tem to be installed in that area, and I request, Sir, that it be tabled and passed along to the department to which it relates. ~m. SPEAKER (Dr . Collins): The han. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. HR. ROWE : I would like to on behalf of my colleagues to support the petition so ably presented by the member for Harbour Grace (Hr. Young) ~719

!larch 2L!, 1976 Tape no. 1392 Page 3 - mt~ ~ :-::. Rowe, on behalf of twenty-one householders of Upper Island Cove for a water :md se,~er s;stem or just a sewer system? lffi, YOUNG: A sewer system. MR. ROWE: A sewer system. Sir, obviously there is a great need for such systems dl over the Province, and I hope that this petition will be ;:;ivcn S}1.:1pathetic consideration and the people of Upper Island Cove '•ill get their sev:erage system. '"'! . SPE.I.KER (Dr. Collins ) : The hon. member for StephenviJle. r·;;~ . W. HC:lEIL: Hr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on -~.:!i,aJ.f of t!1e JLt :::-id of Stephenville. The prayer of the petition reads: We tlle undersigned do humbly petition the Government of :·lewfoundland and Labrador to request that public hearings be held throughout our Province to obtain information and hear briefs on the matters covered by the government's White Paper on the proposed sno"~obile legislation, and further that no such legislation be enacted prior to the holding of such public hearings.

It will be noted that this petition is one that can and should receive support from all over the Province 1~hereas petitions dealing specifically with the proposed legislation would not because of the variety of problems and opinions existing in the different areas. The holding of such public hearings would provide a proper public forum for the gathering of pertinent and detailed information from all over the Province under which proper legislation co¥ld subsequently be based.

These public hearings would allow all of our clubs and associations, together with the general public, to be heard in order that our future rights and treasured heritage can be protected. We ask that you support this petition. Hr. Speaker ,the people of my district are willing to give the hon~ Minister of Tourism a helping hand in his attempt to provide adequate legislation to govern the use of snowmobiles in this 3720

Harch 24, 1976 Tape no. 1392 Page 4 - m w Mr. W. HcNeil. Province. I would strongly recommend to the minister that he seriously consider the prayer of this petition. If the regulations drawn up are not changed drastically they will be largely ignored and will only serve to generate contempt for the law. If people 3721

}'arch 24, 1976 Tape 1393 ~1P. HCNEIL: of my district feel, as do the government, that legislation must be made to promote the safe operation of motorized snow vehicles IB-1 to protect vJildlife, fish an<l other natural resources of this Province and to guarantee the availability of various forms of recreation to :1.11 citizens and an environl!'ent of diversity and quality. I would suggest that the hon. minister use every means in his power to provi.de good legislation which will generate respect for the law anrl its enforcement officers. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. Hear, hear! _!IT'. SPEAKEr..: Order, please! It ~>s been brought to my attention that l:e have in the public galleries sixty Grade IX students from ~'onnt Pearl Central High School accompanied by their teachers, "r. Harvey J!oclder, l'r. Calvin Button and Nr. James Cooze. I ctm sure the hon. members ~rould wish to bid them a sincere welcome. SO~'E HON. !·lE}!BERS: Hear, hear! PR. SPEN::Er ,: Further petitions1 NOTICES OF MOTION: ~':'!. SPEAKER: ~e hon. !'inister of Justice. 1-'R.

Hir.IG !AN : l'r. Speaker, I give notice that I lJill on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the followin;; bills: A bill, "An Act To Arlene' The Prisons Act." (Bill No. 27) A hHJ, "An Act To Al·,end The Evidence Act." (:Fiill No. 28) NlSl!E~.S TO ~l!ESTIO~S POT'. HlliCil NOTICE litiS liE:S~l GP'EN: The hon. t l a~ Premier. ::'::'~_TIET'. ~·corz r: :·r. Speal,er, I have several here of the questions tltat were askec Ly the hon. member for T1:-1Hlingate (]!r.

Smallwood) . fiucstion ::o. lC; .:hetlter anc what safety regulations exist in relation to tllc use of i?ropane gas and 1-rhat enforcement of sucl1 regulations is in effect? Tl1e anE,;er to that is -where propane gas is u::;ec in conjunction ·.,-itll <1 l>oiler installation the system is tested in 3722

Tape 1393 IJ-2 rpJ::l;IER HOOnES: :1cconlance witl1 the Doiler an~ Pressure Vessel Act. The regulations to further extencl the control over liquefied petroluem gas are unc!er active consi<lerat ion by tlte Engineering and Technical Services Division of the Department of !~.an power and Industrial !telations. The Accident Preventative Regulations, 1969 of the Workmens Compensation Beare, Sections 701, 704, 707-13, and 1004 apply to the use of propane gas in the industrial areas. These regulations are enforced by the Board's safety inspectors on visits to industrial areas. l'r.

Speaker, there are quite a few questions here. I will read the ones that may be of interest to the House. The hon. member for TwHJ.ingatc asked, c'oes the government have an estimate,or if not tilen a guesstimate, of the probable total amount of money sent out of the Province for the purpose of buying lottery tickets. The only ones v.'e have on that are on the Olympic J"ottery tickets. The six draws that have tak.en place to <late, a total of 275,000 tickets were sold in the Province at a total cost of $2.75 million. The number of that question is Question 48.

The following sums of money stayed within tl1e Province; Prizes ,,•on in the Province $1,000,006. The Province turned over to provincial Department of Rehabilitation and Jtecreation $137,000j Bank commissions, $149,000; Distributors Commissions, $74,000; Advertising, $135,000, a total of $1.5 million. l'r. Speaker, I think it is probably best that I table these and any questions that arise from them can be answered at a different date. The other questions I have here areQuestion Nos. 62, 3723

:·larch 24, 1976 Tape 1394 PK - 1 Premier Hoores: 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 81, 85, 86, and 94. I might say- and I have copies here, Hr. Speaker, for appropriate people - I might say that there are 247 questions which have been answered so far, and we will do our utmost on this side to answer as many Earc as we can as soon as we can. MR. SMALLWOOD: I thank the han. gentleman for these questions. There must have been someone who is terribly curious to be asking so many questions. SOHE HON. HEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR . SMALLHOOD: \fuo asks all of those questions1 Who was it? "REMIER ~fOORES : I beg your pardon, Mr.

Speaker, all those questions that I just referred to were asked by the han. member from Twillingate. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The Minister of Justice. liON . T. A. HICKMAN: Hr. Speaker, I have the answers to some questions, some I can table. The answer to Question No. 15 on the Order Paper of November 24, 1975 asked by the han. the member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), I table that. And I table as well the answers to Question Nos. 102 and 103 asked by the han. member for Twillingate. The answer to Question No. 110, Mr.

Speaker, on the Order Paper of November 24 asked by the hon. member for '1\rillingate~ ''How many members of the Ro:•al Canadian Mounted Police a..-e in Newfoundland on duty for the Government of Canada and costing the Government of Newfoundland nothing?" The answer is; 104 R.C.M.P. ~embers, and 58 public servants are excluded from the Provincial contract. The answer to Question 113 by the han. member for Twillingate;"how many members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police operating in Newfoundland are Newfoundlanders hy birth? 11 The answer is; 130.

The answer to Question No. 114,again by the han. member from Twillingate; hmv many members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police operating outside of Newfoundland are NPI••foundlanders by birth1 The answer is 384, 384 Newfoundlanders serving throughout Canada today are very proud members of the R.C.M.P. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. DOODY: 384! We are getting her under control. 37 ') _. _ .. ~ · , .. -·

}larch 24, 1976 Tape 1394 PK - 2 ~fR. HICKM!u~: The next one, Hr. Speaker , is the answer to Question No. 115 which I will table. There was also a Question tlo . 106 asked by the hon. gent leman from Twillingate, and the question was, "the number of Newfoundlanders enlisted in Newfoundland in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Force since Confederation?" That has posed a real problem , Mr. Speaker. And I cannot give a specific answer hQt I will give to the Bouse t he information that we were able to acquire from the Royal Canadian Hounted Police Ueadquarters in Ott awa.

Computerization of the record system did not take place until 1073 , therefore a count of members engaged after Confederation but who discharged prior to April 1, 1973 is not readily available to the R .C. ~I.P. However, 529 members who have served in the Royal Canadian :·lounted Police since April 1, 1973 reported their home Province to he Newfoundland. In addition, 50 ex-members, retired members of the Royal Canadian ~lounted Police are residing in Newfoundland. That is 3725

March 24, 1976 Tape no. 1395 Page 1 - mw Hr. Hickman. as far as recorded statistics can go in providing the answer to ~hat. Mr. Speaker, Question No. 56 by the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) directed to the hon. Premier. Question: If and when the government intends to introduce legislation to lower the voting age in provincial elections to age eighteen as requested by the present Minister of Mines and Energy on March li, 1971? The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that

Section 11 of the Election Amendment Act 1974 being the Act No. 80 and enacted on May 21, 1974 reduced the voting age to eighteen. Another question, Question No. 82 from the same hon. gentleman requires the same answer. The question is: If his administration­ this is to the hon.

Premier - still intends to do what the Speech from the Throne prOJD.ised in March 1, 1972, "My government has. decided to lay before this House legislation providing for a reduction in the voting age to eighteen years?" The answer is the same as that given previously that this was accomplished in 1974 by the Election Amendment Act of that year which was approved by this han. House. The answer to Question No. 55 is that the matters referred to therein~ namely, the question of bail,falls with the exclusive jurisdiction of parliament.

I believe from what I read in the press that some amendments to the Bail Reform Act are presently being considered by the Parliament•of Canada. Question No. 59 also falls within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Govenrment of Canada, l!R. SNALLIWOD: Parliament. HR. HI CIQ.'L.\1~ : - Parliament of Canda or at least parliament - I should rephrase this. Parliament has asserted exclusive jurisdiction in this field and have legislation covering that situation. NR. SMALLWOOD: tiL HICKMAN: What was the question?

The question was: If and when the government will "bring in legislation guaranteeing the right of;.privacy to the people 3726

Harcll 24, 1976 Tape no . 1395 Page 2 llr. llickman. of Newfoundland and to legislate insofar as this is within the provincial jurisdiction to prevent the use of wiretapping, telephone tapping and other electronic surveillance devices in this Province" as advocated by the present Minister of Mines and Energy on March 11, 1971? 11 - a great constitutional lawyer. MR. Sl1ALU~OOD: What is he going to do about it? HR. III CKMAN : This is why I believe, Mr. Speaker, - there are rumours abroad that the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy is taking a long hard look at the federal riding of St.

John's West, becaase he has discovered that the Parlirune~t of Canada has exclusive jurisdiction - MR . CROSBIE: Is this as a result of a wire tap that you got this inf ormation? MR. HICKMAN: lle is looking. SQ}1E liON. ME}ffiERS : Oh, oh! The answer to Question No. 57 is that government has not given any consideration to that matter as yet. MR. CROSBIE: That is a good answer. }1R • III CIQ1A..'i : Question No. 681 l I had all these things nicely laid out just as I came up here, Mr. Speaker, or before I came up and they have sort of disappeared on me. That is all I have. J.1R. CROSBIE: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Dr . Collins): The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot compete with my hon. colleague for toe longevity in terms of conversation, but I will answer one question proposed by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). Question no. 724: I would like to read the question. llWhat contracts either oral or written were awarded to James Reid or any company which may be known to be a shareholder by various other departments during 1972 through and including 1975? List the details of all work or services provided by the department 3727

l1arcl1 24, 19 76 Tape no. 1395 Page 3- mw Hr. Lundrigan. and the cost of each individual project. Were tenders called for any of the work? If so, did the lmvest bid get the job? 11 The answer for two departments Industrial and Rural Development is nil for all three questions. 3728

:Karch 24, 1976 Tape No. 1396 NH- 1 ~~. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Hinister of Health. MR. COLLINS: ~'r, Speaker, I have some answers to questions here. Question no. 635 in the name of the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr: R. Moores), and no. 636 in the name of the same hon. member, and question no. 382 in the name of the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. S:nallwood), and 394 in the name of the same hon. member. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. 'lR. NEARY: I ;~ould like to ask the Minister of Justice, Mr.

Speaker, if he has received recently a report from the Ne,~foundland Farm ~roducts Corporation, a report submitted as the result of an investigation into pilferage and theft carried out by a private detective. l'R. DOODY: Pilferage and theft carried on by a private detective! MR. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate to the House if he knows cf any action that has been taken against employees of Newfounaland Farm Products Corporation as a result of theft, pilferage or possible embezzlement1 MR. HICK}'AN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health. In view of the disclosures and revelations that came out recently in connection with a royal commission hearing that •'as held in Ne ... ,foundland into the ~yeglass industry, would the minister indicate what action if any he is now going to take to regulate the ophtalmologists, the opticians, and the optometrists in t~is Province either through Legislation or regulation? MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the han. member knows full well that that enquiry was carried out under The C~mbines Investigation Act-I believe that is the right Act- by the federal government. He have not received a report from the enquiry yet and until we receive such report it is presumptuous to say what one must do. ~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Will the minister 3729

Yarch 24, 1976 Tape No. 1396 NM- 2 '~. NEAP.Y: indicate '~hat plans his government have to update an outda t ed act regulating optometrists, ophtalmologists and o-pticians i.n this Province? MP. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. Minister of Health. ~~. COLLINS: That will be revealed, Mr. Speaker, as this session p_rogresses. MP. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. The President of the Student Council at Memorial University, Mr.

Neil TiJley,was on today suggesting that the RCMP were to photograph a special spee.ker at Memorial and some of the students. I was wonde~ing if the minster knew anytbina about this? Hll.. SPEAREP (Dl. COLLINS): The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Will the hon. gentleman repeat that question. I could not hear him. HR.

WHITE: The President of the Student Council at Memorial, Neil Tilley,was on the air today suggesting that there were reports the RC~~ intended to photograph a gentleman by the name of Conrad Madwaui, 1 think ~is name is, he is from the Marxist-Leninist Organization and they were suggest:l .ng that it was impairing academic freedom in terms of having the police around with cameras. Now they had not done this.but they were suggesting it was about to be done and I was wondering if the minister was aware of it? f.W.. HICKMAN: I am totally and absolutely unaware of it, Mr. Speaker.

I have never heard of the suggestion and I have never heard of the visit of this gentleman. I do not know anything about it but there is no question at all that the definition of academic freedom is getting broader and broader and broader every day. }1jt, T.ffiiTf, : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~rn SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS) : A supplementary? ~. l•lJHTE: Yes. Is the }!inister of Justice aware of recent undertakings by 3730

'larch 21;, l<l76 Tape No . 1396 Nt'- 3 11'. t"HTE: thl" nCl'P to check on certain individuals in the media with respect to the Marxist-Len inist Organization? ' 'l'. II ICK''A~: TCI t11lly and ab!>oluteJ y unawart>, "r. Speaker. Never hea r d of t he su ~~estion before i n my life . 1~ . HHITR: t~ould the minister undertake to find this out, ~'r . Speaker? ''TI. li!CIO'J\N : "'o. No . " ~' . r!'I"'SRIE: !-/hat foolishness ! ·~ .

Sl'P.AKF.P: The hon. member for E11gle niver . 11'. '\Tl'J\CfWI : II fJUCstion for the >finister of Tourism, can the minister e xplain what occurs to cari bou seh ed by his l~ildl ife enforcement ar.ency from hunters suspected of connnitting an offence under the b ig p,ame

section of the Wildlife Act? "~. lllCKEY: I bep. vour pard on? 3731

t'arch 24, 1976 Tape 1397 J'R . STr.ACHEli: I <Jrn askinr.: Hhat occurs to the caribou which are seized by his lHldlife Enforcement Agency. The hon. ~linister of Tourism. IB-1 I T .• SPE/IY-ER: •m. lliCKEY: It is given to charitable organizations, tlr, Speaker. l·'R , STRAc1iEN: I am sorry, Sir. So I ask here - }!I'. . SPEAKER: A supplementary? Y1' •• STRACHEJ,,: A supplementary, I want to correct that, I ask what occurs to caribou seized by the enforcement agencies from hunters suspected of commiting an offense under the bill: ~~:ame

section of the \Jildlife Act? Itt, YOP,Gi\N: lie just told you. lffi. lliCKEY: I have answered it, ~lr, Speaker . liT' .• STRACHEN: A supplementary. Can the minister then tell what happens to caribou after the trial is over and the hunters have been acquitted? IT .. SPllAKER: The hon. ~<inister of Tourism. YR. HICKEY: };r. Speaker, to my knowledge the meat is put in freezers, preserved,"! suppose,and if a person is acquitted, as in the case of fire arms or any other property that is confiscated, if the person is acquitted,they get the equipment or whatever material it might be back. l!R. STPu"-CHEN: HR.

SPEAKER: ~T .. . STr...ACIIEN: A supplementary. I will allow one further supplementary on this question, Can the hon. minister explain then out of fourteen caribou seized from three hunters who Here subsequently acquitted by the court,uhy his cepartnent could only return eight of the fourteen? I am asking were they stolen, were they lost or were they eaten by h;s c'fepartMent? The hon. l'inister of Tourism. "'" !'. TC~T.Y: !!r, Speake"t", that question should r ere appropriately be rJ<Jcec on the Order Paper.

Obviously the hon. gentleman is <1Hare, I am sure, that I cannot give an ans1:o1er of this kind of detail off the 3732

:·nrch 24, 1976 T:1pe 1397 IB-2 ''"Tl.. HIGKEY: top of MY he<tcl. If he <dll give r.'.e the names I will be r,lad to lool~ into it. ~ .. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~T. NEAPY: Yr.

Speaker, I 1>muld like to di.rect a question to the Government liouse Leade~ the l:inister without Portfolio. l1oulC' t!te ninister tell the House whether or not on Monday of this week he and certain of his colleagues met with the representatives of the ~:etJfoundland Federation of Labour and what action will be taken on the recommendations and complaints that Here made by the Federation of Labour in tlteir brief to the minister and to the government? _]!!'.. SPEAKER: The han. House Leader. !~. HELLS: !-'r.

Speaker, certain members of the government c1id in fA.ct rreet ' li th the grou p that the hon. me!'lber mentione<'. A brief Has ~iven anc1 that brief of course wiJl be consirlerecl by government. }'R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewis porte. PT'.. 1-:'IliTE : "r. Speaker, I have a question for the l'inister of Yunicipal Aff:.lirs and Housing. He has just stepped outside there. I have another one here for the Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. So perhaps I ,,•ill ask that one. I will ask the other one <vhen the minister comes back in.

Could the "inister of Forestry ami Agriculture tell the House <<~hether or not a ne"~<' regulation has been brought in 1>1ith respect to sawmill operators whj ch requires them to hire a certified scaler in terms of their wood~ I have had a number of calls from small sa"~<~ill operators who tell me it is going to be a hardship on them. Tlte mini.s ter may not be aware of it, Hr. Speaker. ''JL SPtA..'<En.: The hon. t'inister of Forestry and Agriculture. MP. , ROUSSEAV: I will have to take that question as notice.

The only ,,•ay I could see that coming is because of ne1>J policy that "~<'as recently announced in a joint statement by myself and my colleague, the l'inister of Rural Development,and that does not .force anybody to have a scaler hut they do have to have one in order to come in 3733

~'arch 24, 1976 Ta pe 1397 IB-3 ~T... POt::S SEAU: under the progr.flmme. I '''ill take the question as notice ancl check it out. '111 • SPE,.;::Er.: ~he hon. member for Carbonear . '"'. I have had some long discussions with members of the Carbon<'ar General Hospital staff in Carbonear. To the !'inister of Health: The hospital I am informed is now ready to open. That is to say that medical services can be provided, operations can be performecl. l•!hat is exactly your government's position on this? Are you going to open it,or are you eoing to let it lie there or what? ~ ~. H. COLLINS: Or de r Pa pe r, Hr.

Spea ker. VR . SPEI\lCeR: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~'11. NEARY: ~ rr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hinister of Transportation and Communicatjons is in a position to bring us up to date on negotiations with his counterpart in Ottava in connection with a cost-shared proeraT'1!Tle to upgrade, uiclen, repave, and the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway?

In the meantime, ,,,ould the !'linister also jndicatc now that the mild weather is here, the Sprinr: thaw is comin r,,if he intends to place a half-loacl lit!:.it on tr<~ctor­ tnd.lers <mel other he ;wy equipMent on the Trans-Canada Pigh~·my, espec i ally in the llestern part of the Prov:!nce? "TI . ~.!'!1'::!:!'.. : Th e hon. '1-finister of Transportation anc '-ommunic .ations. '"T' " ()I'.C:;. · : :'r. Speaker, on !>'arch 10 the ministers responsible for higllFays in the pro,rinces of New Brunswick, Neva Scotia, Pr:ince [rhmrd 1sland anc :nyself we met \d th the federal ' ~ inister of Transport, the hon.

Otto Lan~,.flnd submitted to him a subrlission outlining the neec:'s for the reconstruction, for the ungradiug and four-laning of ;:nr-r. sect ion!:i of t~ : c }lri!~ary roads in tlte Atl an i !:' r.egion. Of cour se l"'l ~~ c, - f c l.! r, rll n ncl t he primar y road is the Trans-Canada llir;1:~·.- ny. But ir, ot lter parts o£ the Atlantic ~egion the primar ) roac's incluC.e morP than the 'Ir:1ns -r.annC'a High~1ay. 3734

March 24, 1976 Tape 1398 PK - 1 Mr. Morgan: The submission was made to the Federal Minister with the request that the Federal Minister take the proposal to his colleagues in the Federal Cabinet Asking that a programme be de~ised as soon as possible lvhereby the Federal Government will participate financially on a programme to reconstruct and upgrade the Trans-canada in the Atlantic region. That was March 10. To date we have received no reply, no response, and no acknowledgement of our submission tothe Federal Cabinet. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (D~. COLLINS): A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: The second part. lvould the minister answer the second part of my question about the half-load limit? This is very important now this time of tre year especially since the weather got mild. Does the minister intend to implement the half - Mr. Speaker, no plans made to date. 'ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. It is in connection with the Marystown To1,~ Council and soMe statements by the Mayor.

Could the minister indicate to the House Hhether or not he has given consideration t o the requests of Dr. Morrisey and the Council? MR. SPEAY-ER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs and Uous:.ng . !':Ol\l. A. 13. PECI:FORD: ~!r. Speaker, the Council was in yesterday and prese nted some of their problems to us, and we are now presently s tud;ring them. Hhen any resolution of their problems hasebeen made by goverument,or concurrently with the Council,a proper announcement wi.ll be made . ~fR . SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon . member for Windsor-Buchans. HR. FLIGI:T: }\r.

Speaker, my question to the ~!inister of llighways. til< EON. l·ffiNBER: Transportation and Communications. !1R. FLIGHT: ------ I rue sorry, Transportation and Communications. It is Hitb regards to the detour on the Trans-Canada Highway \Vest of Grand Falls. Hr. Speaker, when that road was flooded there were 3735

Harch 24, 1976 Tape 1398 PK - 2 ~lr. !>light : statements made that le d one tci believe- it was aller,ed that the cause of the flooding was as a result of the level of a dam raised on the Exploits P.iver by Price (Newfoundland). And as a result of this the feeling was wide spread by knowledgeable people that Price (Newfoundland) as a result of their action should contribute to the cost of repairing the damage. The qlolestion to the ll'inister, Sir, is, did the department investigate the possibilities of Price being held responsible with an eye to the fact if we saved $350,000 there we spend it some"here else?

And if so, what was Price's attitude? Did they categorically refuse to take responsibility for the flooding and the result in damage.? c1R. SPEAKER (DR. COLLU'S): The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. NR. ~fORGAN: Hr. Speaker, shortly after the flooding of the Trans- Canada the engineers from my department investigated the possible causes. They did determine the possilbe cause. One possible cause was the fact that a dam on the Exploits River was raised just last year by six feet by Pri~e (Newfoundland) Limited.

We did not gather any concrete evidence that this did cause the water level to rise on the Exploits)but there is a strong possibility .. We hold discussions with the Price (Newfoundland) Limited, the officials of the company and the officials of my department, but the company has refused to accept any liability or responsibility for the aamage to the Trans-Canada and we are ~oing the work strictly on Provincial funds. HR. SPEAKER (DR . COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industrial and Reral Development.

The minister will recall when the government closed down the Steel Plant in at the Octagon we were told of plans for building fibreglass boats and oth er ind~stry for the Octagon, for the former Steel Plant. Would the minister now indicate if there is in aetna! fact a boat building industry going on at the Steel Plant in at the Octagon? And what other uses the former buildin g and the property is being used for? 3736

March 24, 1976 Tape 1398 PK - 3 HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of I~dustrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. ~peaker, this is a difficult question to response in detail to. It is a very legitimate one. I can indicate that there is quite a bit cf activity going on there. The hon. member would have read in the paper recently about tenders been called by Pelcon for a new building, something that perhaps we should be flexing our muscles on in announcing.

That building, I cannot quote the amount of money involved, but I believe it is in the vicinity of $1.5 million, and that is for the underwater connecting electrical system, which is a breakthrough in the world for an electrical system that can accommodate Marine activity of n drilling nature, a very, very advanced type of technology and one which places Ne~~foundland in a vanguard of that type of activity. On the boat building - and just as a brief comment I did meet last evening with representatives of the company that are involved in th<' manufacturing of fibreglass boat.

They have several designs, and two or three that are in actual production. One of the problems is the reaearch and development costs of the plug which is the required model to be used for the type of activity that eventually produces the boat. And they have had some problems,but they are off the ground, they are producing, and I hope that with my colleague in Fisheries at some early date, perhaps in the near future 1 we can talk with these people to see if we can give them a little bit of a lift perhaps on an experimental basis in the short haul to get the industry off the ground.

It is very highly labour intensive. IIR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary . Would the minister clarify a point that he made there in his remarks. Are these sports craft 3737

Harch 211, 1976. 'IR. NF.ARY: Tape 13'!9 RT1 - 1 or Fi 1J they he fishing hoRts? Hhat kind of l,o;tts are they? •m. l.llNDFIGAN: Hr. Spe<Jker, the hoats I am referrinf!; to, they have a variety of tyres of boats. Some are the neH. Some of the srorts craft type. But the most fundamental type that He are interested in ts the fishing boat. They have designed a thirty footer, for example, R trap skiff th~t has heen used and tried and experimented with very successfully arounn the Horld. They fund it in Newfoundland.

They have plans for other types of designs, a thirty-seven footer ~~hich has - 1m • S}IALIJ>'oon : 1 TR • Ll!Nl)RIGAN: t!R. St1ALUJOOD: ~ 1 R. T.UNDRIGAN: For Pxport? I heg your pardon? For export out? Yes, certainly for export. They are very, very optimistic that if they can make a hreakthrough here and convince the nnhlic of the value of the kind of a craft - it has got at least a twenty year guarantee of life expectancy. It is a marvellous boat. A thirty-seven footer ~10uld have the capability of a forty-eight foot •moden boat, for example.

I am hoping that we can - I am only saying this in anticipation - we can give them a hit of a lift at an early nate. The PeJcon activity, ~'hich is a private company that was - I think, perhaps, the father or the Pelcon in Newfoundland is my colleague, the Minister of ~"inance who Harked for two years with the group. 1\Te ''ave never bragged about it. But the reason I want to elaborate for a moment is that it is a brand-new breakthrough in technology in our Province. The han. the member for Twillingate(Mr.

Smallwood) will agree that one of the weaknesses in Newfoundland is that we have never heen able to develop a highly sorhisticated technological hase. These people, J,y the wav, when wf' tr'lve]] ed overseas, 1Je were really flattered with the lmowledge that the oil drilling companies in Norway and the Scandinavian areas han of Pelcon as thev do, hy the way, throup,hout the U.S. as well and the development of the net• technology that has been done in Nei·Yfound- 1 and. 'f})ere are ~lewfoundland peonle involved. There is a tremendous 3738

!!arch 2t,, 1'17f>. Tape 1399 BH - 2 HR . LUNDRIC.AN: amount of scientific knowledge gone into it. They are to the stage,as I have indicated,of caJling tenders, I believe they are being published a1 ready, for a new building to he built in the flonovans Industrial Park. That will be, first of all, hv its very nature it will be a stimulus to our economy this present year. But in the long run it will Jllean a 11,ood hit of eJllployment to Newfoundlanders. I \•JOu] <l 1 il·.e to emphasize again that there are a number of areas 1il<.e these l'inrls of thjnp:s that-we could brap about right nm•.

He do not \~ant to do it because we prefer to enable the people in these kinds of areas to operate without a lot of sort of public, political participation in terms of dehate. Rut things are moving on a number of funds of interest to the people of Newfoundland along these lines. SOMJ' ITON. HT<:HllERS: Fear, hear! tm. NJ\ARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I thank the minister for the information that he has f!:iven the llouse so far. Would the minister tell us hm• lonp: the stockpile of car wrecks will remain on the site creating a eyesore in there?

Hill they be moved out of it, the car 1>recks, i'l on the site in there hy the old steel plant? \-Till they be 1 eft there? l·Ji 11 they he moved out of it or ''hat w1.1J happen to that stockpile of car wrecks? ~m. LUNnRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, I am not conversant wjth car wrecks. So I '~i] 1 have to pass on to - I do not know who is responsible for car wrecks. I will _i ust have to say that I do not know the answer. ~m. noonY: The 'linister for Environment is not here.

So perhaps I could just say thnt we are aware of the problem that these wrecks have heen accumu1atinp in there and we are lookinp; at the problem and hope to do somethinp, about it. The original agreement was that they should have been scrapped and moved from the Province as they were done. That Dpparently has not been done. So government obviously has to take some steps in that direction. liP.. Sl'I'AI(ETI: The hon. member for Le.wispnrte. ''R. F. HHITF': A ~uestion for the }linister of ~lunicipal Affairs, Hr. 3739

''nrch 24, l.ll76 . ~m . t·,IITF: Rn - 3 l'pcaker . C:ould the minister indicate to the House whether or not he has had corre~pon~ence from a citi?.en's committee in Corner !lronk ~liAMStinp. that ,is dep .utme nt look into cert~in activities of tl1e r:orner '!\rool: City C'-<mncil? Could the minister indicate to the Fou~:P. . l'r . Speaker, whether or not he intend .s to have his officia.l.s do this? !'!L n. J>PCKFORn: Mr. Speal-er, t do not know if the hon. member is rcferrinv to recent correspondence or correspondence of three or four months old.

Tf he f.-; referrin~ to the <>lt!er correspontlenc.­ thnt T car rememher, T t.h1.nl· I responded to t he c:iti?.P.n ' s committee i.ntlicat1.ns: to the1'11 1 thi.nv in hoth telegral'l nnd letter, that sped fie :\l li' P,at io"r. wotll(' have to he made and thl\t ft'ol'l Qur regional office ;., C'orner 'Iron!· nnil from officials in the department there 1~as no irulicnti<'n nivt>n to us in n11r examination of the:- adminiRtrlltion of t 1tl' citv of C:Qmer IIJ:"ool: th11t anything was amiss . tf spc:-cific alteRations were made we would then he in the position to reply in a positive way . !lut unless spF cific ones 1~ere made we c:ould not reply. '1'R • lo/IHTF. : 'tr.

Speaker, has the ministel:' had recent correspon~ence on anv specific chnrp.es made? 3740

l:arch zt,, 197G Tape 1400 ,Ill-1 r~ .. P~c.:For..n: !Cr. Speaker, not to my knmdec!ge unless it came in and it is here on ny des!~ in mail that can1e in in the last couple of clays, well since three tLirty yesterday afternoon. But not to my knowledge. ~~. SPEAIIJ':~: The hon. merrber for Trinity-Bay .de Verde. ':'C. r. ~0lm: Hr. Speal,.er, I do not l~now whether to direct this question to ti1c l'inister of Tourism, Industrial and Rural Development, or the :'inister of l'incs am1 Energy, but I would like for one of the ministers if he coulc! tc answer.

Since we are about to adopt labradorite or, as the geologists like to say, labra<.lorite as the mineral emble;c, for this Province, could either of these ministers indicate what their department is doing in tenus of keeping this ra-.' mineral in lle~1foundland for the purposes of processing and manufacturing into souvenirs and jet~ellery and this type of thing instead of exporting the raw mineral to the mainland where the real money is generated- keeping the raw mineral in the Province and getting extra employment and keeping money ~1ithin the Province? l!hat steps are being taken Ly the department? !'P..

SPEAKER: The hon. Yinister of Industrial and P.ural Development. '<R. Ll:C1DTIICA)1: "r. Speaker, I cannot give the member a detailed outline of t>hat steps have been taken or can be taken but I will tell you Hhnt I >Jill suggest, Your !lonour. The hon.rnember was a knowledr_caLle person in this field from his professional background. I remember this from my association with him as a colleague at the university. Ile is a professional man in this [icld.

I would certainly tmuld like if he could take a fetv moments to outline some of his recommendations on how we can achieve the goals and the aims that he has indicated. Obviously all of us support the concept ancl the idea that he has put forward. I would be quite happy to recieve any recoml!lendations from him and feerl it into our system for activity. HR. SPEAKER: ~m. F. nmm: The hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. A supplementary, ~~r. Speaker. I would be quite happy 3741

~:arch 24, 1976 :-::. F. rrr.m: Tape 1400 I13-2 to be acting l'inister of Industrial and r.ural Development for a fe~.· ,,;eeks, Sir, but I do not think the minister really answerec! tl:c question. I asked the JC.inister t<ha~ steps have been taken to ensure that this rml !!!ineral tdll be kept in Newfoundland ,or has in fact the minister's c.lepartr.'ent t?.ken any ste?s whatsoever because there is obviously a large amount of export of this mineral to the r.-.ainland and the finished pro<1uct is c'one on the r.-.ainland? Hhat steps have been taken? I tdll consult tdth the minister :·'n.

SPEA!:En: Tl1e hon. l!jnister of ~!:lnes and Energy. 1~ .. C!'.OSBIE: "r. S:peaker, the Department of Industrial Development !tas ue>nc rwt!tin;; on this matter ,and if they ha<! there would certainly ~,e a jurlsc 1 ictional c1i,spute since the Departt:ter.t of ::ines and Energy has to do with rdnerals in the Province. It was our brilliant suggestion that labradorite be adopted as the mineral emblem - I sometimes Jmvc a little difficulty in pronouncing my words, 17r. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman fer Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) knm"s - mineral eablem cf the Province.

I do not know o£ any specific ste1Js that lwve been taken in connection t.-ith labradorite to forbid it 'ueing >:lti pped out of tl1e rrovlnce ,!Jut I will check into the matter. I Jo not thinl ·. there Las been any great raid. lately on our labradorite resonrcC;s. /' t J eust I l1:2ve. not haC it report e.,; to me. =:ut \·:e v~ilJ c<.;rtai:lly loo:, into it and ensure that there is no lack of J nbrnr'orite SHJ..LL~ 1 '10T): :rr. S~;c.u.L er, a supplementary question to th.e rr.injstcr.

Is the minister m·•are of the fact that in }'oscm·' the tomb of ~:ikolai Lenin ,,•hich has 1Jeen v:lsitec' by tens of milU .ons of people so :f:ar includin::; T"e - I visitec' tdth l'r. Nixon, two of us together - js r.~ade of labradorite. I"enin 's tor.b is made of labradorite but not obtained from Lahrador, o'bt;:tinecl :d thin the Soviet Union. They l'roduce it as v.•ell. ~":. SPE:\KE:r< : The llo:1. c':lnister of ;·ines and rnerr;y. 3742

t'arch 24, 1976 Tape 141)0 .,. . cr.osn rr.: ~·r. f.pcnl :er, ! ~'il S not :l';are t hat this was so and I consic!cr it my rlttty a s : ·inister of ~'.ines and Energy to go and check this out. I !tope thnt these photozraphers t~ho are going around taking pictures of da nger ous ··arxists-Leninists have sot t en the picture cf the mecber for Ttdllingate (Yr. Small\ 1ood). HR. SPEAKER: The hon. mecber for Lewis porte. vn . 1!11!'!E: "r .

Speaker , I ha•1e ;anot her question for the :'inister rn-3 of t'unicipd .~ffn1rs an<l IINISing. l.ooking at t:te latest flash sheet , Si r, t hat cal!lc out ~·aTc h 1 ~, it shows th<lt while the consumer price jnc't!.'< inc r ease in food for last ttontb, February compared to !'ebruary of last }'Cat' IIP.S only e per cent, it ShOI>Cd that housing ~·as 15 per ce nt , the increase in the consumer price inde:t. I am ~:ondering if t he minister can tell ull 't.'hcther or not there is anythin l! on a provinci a l level that 1;e can c'o to halt this rapid increase in the price of housing in the rrovince? 3743

}larch 24, 1976 Mr. Speaker (Dr. Collins): lfousing. l:ape no. 1401 Page 1 - mw TI1e han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and MR . l'ECKFORD: That, Mr. Speaker, deserves in its own right a very detailed answer which I will not give now. Suffice it to say that government in the last several months initiated a homeowner grant prograrnme,when the federal government decided it was not going to have anything to do with that programme after December 31. So we brought in our own as of the first of January, 1976 to help alleviate the business of downpayments on new housing construction.

We are presently workinc on existing housing construction which we might be in a position to say something about in the next week or two. Other than that the problem is a very ~ajor one, and not an easy one to get around. The only other thin~ I can say that in housing in general in the Province Newfoundland receives per capita through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in our earnest efforts to hammer c~n!c whenever we can, we get ~ore per capita than any other province in Canada, and we eet more per cnpita than any Atlantic Province.

So that insofar as the reduction in housing costs can be measured by the amount of money we receive and a ,;i .:at e for through Cl·!HC,we are doing our part. :m .. sr.::fu.UlR (Dr.

Col l i ns): 111e hon. member for Port au Port. ~u\. iiODDE'R: A question to the Hinis ter of Social Services. t·li1at accounting procedures does the Department of Social Services does tllc Department of Social Services intend to initiate to ensure full administrative and accounting controls over such things as ovcrpaylOLents and to mnke recoveries , etc., to overcome the problezrs which were pointed out the Auditor General's Report? l~. SPEAKER (nr . Collins): The hon. llinister of Social Services. :m.. 3"-.ETT: Hr.

Speaker, to the best of my l:;nowledge there has ah;ays been nn adequate syste~ of the collecting of overpayments in the Department of Social Services. It is ironic that this thing has come to light, and 3744

!·larch 24, 1976 MR. BRETT: Tape no. 1401 Page 2 - mw it has been sort of tossed around this last four or five days,mainly because of the Auditor General's Report, but then because of the Ombudsman's show on Sunday night. But there is an adequate system there. It has been going for years. The only thing probably that has bothered me a little bit is that we may be a little more rigid than other provinces. And I certainly do not intend to make it any more rigid. As a matter of fact,if anything I am going to check out what the other provinces are doing with the hope of maybe modifying it somewhat.

But we do have an adequate system , and I see no real reason for improving on what we have. HR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, this question is to the hon. Minister of Tourism.

I believe yesterday when the minister was commenting on the moose population in Newfoundland I thought I overheard the minister to say that there were no moose in Labrador, and I am just wondering whether he meant that there were few moose there or that there were no moose there, because I believe that the government did make steps to introduce moose in Labrador, twenty, twenty-five years ago or something, so I am just wondering what is happenad? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I meant no moose in terms of moose licences.

There was a transplant, I believe they call it, into Labrador some years ago. My staff tells me that has been considered 1or to all intents and purposes it is considered a failure in terms of increasing the herd. ~ffi. S}~LWOOD: Because of the unlawful destruction of the herd. MR. HICKEY: To some extent MR. SHALL!<OOD: To a very large extent. MR. HICKEY: -I have asked that question, Mr. Speaker, to some extent but to a greater extent the lack of a proper habitat and feeding grounds because of the difficult terrain and the fact that there is not the kind of cutting in the area that there is on the Island.

I am told by my staff 3745

~larch 24, 1976 -.Tape no. 1401 Pa!e 3 - mw !·lr . '!ickey . that they lnok t·lith optiJ!Iism 1..n future especially in the Goose Bay nrea near where the Labrador Line rboarn nPnnlP are workin~ . and they 3re optimistic for the increase of their herd based on the chan:;cs th3t are t:tking place as a result. ~!R . S!IALLWOOD: Based on what? 'IR. !IIC.K£Y: Based on the work that is going on in Labrador in cuttint cjmber ·~hi.ch would suggest t:te develop ment of the kind of environment where moose would lncreAsc in population . ~!R.

S'li\LLWOOD: Moose, moose . •m . '!lC:XRY: Yes. tm. ~~11\LI MOOD: Not caribou, moose. ~tR. tllCl~Y : No, moose . KR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins) : lhe h.on. me!:lber for Windsor - Buchans . }!R. FLIGHT: Hr . <;peaker, this question is obviously a supple ment ary to my Hr11t question to the ltinister of Transportation and Communications, nnd I did not get then his Honour ' s attention . 3746

March 24, 1976 Tape 1402 PK- 1 Mr. Flight: The minister indicated in his answer that his department had determined that Price (Newfoundland) may well have been the cause of the flooding that >vill cost this Province $350,000. My question to the minister is, did the minister or the department attempt to determine whether or not Price (Newfoundland) had the legal rights to raise that river by six feet,which,again, was the action that will cost this Province $350,000?

Now in the view of looking for compensation from Price (Ne~1foundland), did the department determine whether or not Price (Newfoundland) had the legal right to raise the level of that river? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications: MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, th~ matter is now under investigation. There will be further investigations and also further negotiations with Price (Newfoundland) Limited. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): I will allow one further question. The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. W. MCNEILL: I have a question for the hon.

Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. Hhen does the minister expect to make an appointment of an industrial development officer to the Harmon Corporation in Stephenville? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that question relates to my colleague, the quite capable Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. A. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, no definitive time can be given on that question as to whether and when that position will be filled.

The Harmon Corporation of course had been informed in writing by me, and other representatives in the Stephenville area,of the present position of government relating to that position. If and when that position of government changes the Harmon Corporation, the member and 3747

~1arch 21, , 1976 Tape 1402 PK - 2 l1r . l'eckford: any othe~ intere~ted groups in the area will be so informed. ORDERS OF TIIP. DAY This being Private ?:embers Day, on t·!cdnesd:ty last when the Hou~e adjourned the hon . 1!i.nister of Forestry :tn<l /lr;riculture had adjournec' the debate. '•fl> . ROUSSEAU: ~r. ~pea~~r . how much time do I have left? ~R . SPLAKF.R (DR. COLLL~S) : ~m . ROOSSF~U: Pardon? 'fl>. SPEAKER (PR. COLLINS): Tl~enty minutes. ~enty minutes . l"tr.. ROUSSEAU: ~enty minu tes . Well, Nr .

Speaker, as I indicated last week when I stood,I h11d not intended ro partic ~pate in the debate,which is :1 cliche, but the bon. Leader of the Opposition made some remarks about •1hat <:e h:td be.en doing in the area o: forestry and agricultu:-e the <leet h<'f <" rC'. ,\nd thC'!" the hon . !"ember for Lewisport c (!!r. t-Illite) stood up : -'St week and indicated t~h at we had not been dointz.

So in the time last week ,the tl/ent;--five minutes that 1 had at my disposal I sort of rambled on and tried to cover a couple of areas in my depart .mcnt , mninJy the areas of forestry and t he areas of Crown lands, :md I tr iotl te> split lt '~P as one-third each to give some indication what ilas heen done over tl1e y2nrs. Today I would like co spea k for a fel.· minutes on forestry- I ~tn so ~ry,o u agriculture .

But before I do .there are a few points last ve~ : . ,:Hltur ally . :~d libbiny.,t'•nt I do not think I paid enough attention to, htt hl'rf'll:':<' r 1~erc i:; not tlt:1L much ti~e I am g<:dnr. co hnvc skim e>vl'r. 1 r1t!l l. if : r:ay ~:evert for a moment to forest r y from l~ st ·.;cck 's conve: ·!';<Jtlon , tlte ?orest ::anag cment T'rogra111111e that •~e introc!uced a f<'l•' }'cars ago,the intention of government to l ook at just what our inven tory is throu &hout the Province both on Crown land by the government <1nd on rrivnte holdint; by the private companies is proceeding very \Jell. \:c hove thus far about six detailed management plans in which h~v~ been developed on units primarily Crown land units.

This has been done hy the branch, the Forestry nranch in the depart~ent . And IJe are 3748

Harch 24, 1976 Tape 1402 PK- 3 Hr. Rousseau: reviewing those now and eventually we will accept or reject them or modify them,by the minister in each instance. And the other two will be finished by April 30 of this year, Mr. Speaker, and the third by late next Fall for Labrador. Now the companies have also been co-operating, Mr. Speaker, in the establishment of management units on their lands and have presented two plans each for review by government and are working diligently on the remaining units on their land.

Now it is anticipated that as a result of these detailed inventories both on crolnl lands by the forestry people in the department and by the paper companies that we will be in a better position to preserve our forestry resources. I indicated last week it is not the intention of this government that the forestry resource which we have, which I suggested was second only,at worst,to our fishery as a resource,would not end up in the situation we have nol~ in the fishery.

The depletion of the fishery is something of course that is of very great concern to this Province, to the government, to the Legislature and to ev~rybody in this Province, and one would hope as well in Ottawa. We would not want to see the same thing happen to the forest in this Province. So our attempts are to attempt to provide an inventory across this Province, Mr. Speaker, to find out just what our sustainable yield is. As I indicated again last week,there are certain areas where we are going to have to cut back on our cutting permits. They are 3749

";uch /.!•, 1'17(';, !l'l. P.011SSFAU : Tape 1 Mn RH - 1 presently over-cutting from the knowledge we have of what is av<l.ilable there. J1nt hopef'n1J .v these m~tnagement inventories will l'e such that th<";' "'11 1 ;,lJow liS to ma1'e liSe of our resource for many venrs to come, >~r. Spea 1' Pr, not only the people in the Province but our children and our chiJ nrc>n' s chi 1 c1ren, to insure that a sustainable yieJ d stays forever in perpetuitv so that this great resource we have is not over1ooke<1 and not plagued hy the same problems that have plagued our fishery. I should have mentioned also, Mr.

Speaker, that lve had quite a forest access road programme in this Province over the last few years. I would like, if I may, to indicate iust how big the forest access road programme is. ~ow normally you see these small contracts going out here, there and everytvhere and one does not think there is a lot of money involved in it. Rut in 1973 v7e spent ~1.4 million on forest access roads, over ~3 million - $3.5 million, $3.25 million - in the two veRrs 197!,, 1'"~7 .5. This year in 19711 we will probably he in the area of douhling that amount. So that is quite a programme.

I notice this morning in the newspaper that a gentleman with the F.nvironment n.,ne~rtment in Ottawa indicated about the bud worm that we are havinp: m:my problems l-Tith here and the problems involved with spravinp,. Thus far this Province has not •entered into sprayinp; nor i.R it at this point in time the intention of this Province to do so. Th ey have had it in other areas. We do not think it has worked out aR well. Our orogramme has been one, anc this is why there is an increase, Mr.

Speaker, in the money put into the access road programme, that we want to build the Rcc e ~fl roads, get in Rnrl salvage these forests before they rot; in other wonis, to g11in accessibility cmickly and to cut this wood down hefore i.t rots hut not to pursue a programme at this point :!.n time of sprayinr. From mv otm personal view I would hope that it would never have to come to that. So thf's<" are some of the l,ittle things that I did not mention 3750

~'arch 24, 1'!76. HR. ROUSSEAU: Tape 1403 RH - ?. in forestry. I am only going to go over them very superficially because I want to spend a little hit of time on agriculture. I mentioned, of course, in other areas of forest resource we had last year,what we were doing, what we h11d been doing for the past few years. I also mentioned, of course, about crown lands and our attempts to set up regional offices in the various areas of the Province, St.

John's, Gander, Corner "Rrook and Goose Bay, to cover the four re!!;ions in the Province in an attempt to expedite the application of crown lands, something which is very important to people in the Province: the programme of surveying and mappin~ that we have a five year agreement with and that we will be doing quite a bit of this year for control, surveying and topographic mapping in the Province. This is very important, something we have not had before. Hr. Speaker, the problem, of course, we have with crown lands is not one that I shirked away from last week. I explained the problems we have.

I know that people who apply for crown lands do not exactly see the problem as v7e see it. They want their grant in their hand as soon as possible. I1Te can certainly appreciate that, but I thjnk the people must also appreciate that there are certain controls which must he placed on crown lands in order to insure that the leases or grants that result from their application will he ones that are valid in law for their children or their children's children,or many years in the future that there will not any problems with them in respect to their legality.

I also mentioned last wee.k,and I do not think it has caught on in the Province as yet, a major step in the department, ~r. Speaker, last week,in a press release,that no longer will we be giving land for agricultural grant. It will now be on a lease basis. I thinlc 3751 .

)'arch 24, 1976 rn-1 ~ ~- · llOUSSBA : That is a very, very il"portant and 1'\ajor step in thi s Province. It is an indicati nn tlwt governr.1ent is prepared to sup~ort tlte concept of agriculture in this :::'rovince. \;11ile, Yr. Spenker, v.·e Houle' be the first in the ckpartment ,and government, and peopJ e in the Province to suggest thnt w~ could not nearly be as procluctive as some of the other regions in Canada, we do think that '"e have an agricultural 1Jase in t!Je Province.

It 1,rould be our hope that \"e would, \-lith ,.,hatever limitec' base we may have - and I mean that relatively speaking­ ''c nblc to produce to the maximutn of our capacity and it is certainly our intention to do so. I have taken the opportunity during the past month and I visited just about nll the major fauline areas in the Province ancl. talked to tLP. farmers tl1ere in J,ethbridge and ~Ius grave To•m ancl Creen Bay, in 1'ooc1r1ale, in Cormack, in r.obinsons ann the Codroy 't'alley and I lwvc received soMe feedback from the farmers, <;uite a bit of feedback.

I h oc a strip or two torn off my bad•. and explained a fe"W problems. The meetings »'ent very ''ell. Ue got an indication of what their problems are out in the field. I think that the farmers agrce,anr'l. Fe :J.L,ree as a government that we certainly cnn i.r.>prove our production in this Province. Tc1e prcl;J et:'. if of course in respect to the .<mount of lancJ avnil able for farming in certain areas, and riS I say last \,•eek' s rclense and the approval hy government to no lonr:er grant lands tn people for o.gricul tu!·al use,which in many cases, ~ ~ r.

Speaker, <"i~ not end up in agricultural use, He 1-:ant to ensure in future tlmt this lane does indeecl remain in the use th<:t it "as granted for. Hhat ''e \o7ill c1o nmv ~ve Hill give a lease out and there is no problem with leases, the leases are assignable, they are sellable, they are passable to your c~lildren or anything else. l\11 govcrm,ent nvid -· a nd I ~ade a point of it, l"r.

Speaker, last week to say thiR, to put it on the ;-.ublic: rE.cord - it is not government's intention, after fifty years if a r.>a71 builds a couple of buildings on it o.ncl has a fann pronuc:i.ns, to t:1l·.e it away from hi.r't. .\s long <'S that 3752

~rarc:h 24, 1971i Tape 1401, IE-2 far!" or that lnnn remains in ilgriculture, it is not r:cwcrnmenes tntenti.on t0 teu1inate or to do other<dse with that leasP.. r::ertainly if the gentle!"1an 'i7ho hns the le<1se 'i7ants to sell 1t in ten, t1-7enty, thirty, forty years thnt is certainly his prerogative.

He ~~ould have to chec:k with tbe minister because ""e >vould >·mnt to check tC' taakEo sure, the department, that the person who 1dll be purcl1asing the lan<' is indeed seriNts about continuing the cultivation of that l:mc anu the land remains for agriculture use. 1·7e thin!' tl1at is a r..aj or step. >Je have another effort no1.' , a couple of the bills that arc uov: before the House, !:r. Speaker, c:e i1ave some prol;lcms wltl1 squatter's rights in the Province.

It is tlds government's intention to attempt to c:lear up the question of sc;uatter's rig:its,as I mentioned last 1veek,anc' as we all kno1v in i<ewfoundland - Netvfoundlanders 1<e all are and we love to have that piece of paper in our hand whether it be a lease or a grant or pen1issi0n or a permit or uhat, they like to have it for posterity an<'. in case anytld.ng should happen it \vould be our intention to atte2pt in this session of the House with one cf the bills before the House to clear up the whole question of squatter's rights. These are a few of the things we are doing in these two areas.

I just go over them peripherally uith the twenty ll'.inutes or t1venty-five I put to them last week because I have only about ten or fifteen minutes left, :~r. Speaker, and I would like to spend some time specifically on the question of agriculture. ~:any people in the Province say to me, you know, what can 1-lC grow in the Province, we cannot groH anything in this Province. I think that He have here going on very quietly for quite a while a fairly good ar,ricultural base in this Province relatively speaking. 1;c are talking about New·foundl and and Labrador.

He are not talking a bout an enormous land mass and we are not talking about a lot of people. But HC are talking, relatively speaking, to the size and to thl! availab:flity of farm land in this Provlnce and to tl1e number of people 3753

•·nrcll 24, 1976 Tape 1404 "I' . l10t'S!.;!':t\l": \<ho arc {:trminc , I t hink quite :1 pro,!uction on t he p:~rL of these !JCOple . !hcsc- r-ce>plc a::c rco ple, J:r. Speaker , I tili.Jt~ 10ho ~rc often for totter:. A rnnn <:.1-:o o~-ns a farn,or a 1'13n 1:ho kncws SI'T':l>oc!y ,,.ho 01ms a faru• e>r a mnn ·~·ho lives in n farminG COI"I'\unity must recognize anc.l njlprecia t c t1tat these people are people ~1ho worl.. just <t!Jout seven days :1 week, 365 d»ys of the year. They hove uo punch tn time . 'Til.:!Y have no punch out time. One of the fe1~ pcrsonr. ()y the \o.':ty, Nr.

Speake-r, 1.;ho arc not covered - '1' . Cl'.('ISi'IP.: They use t l:c sun to punch in . They use tJtc sun to punch in, ancJ the moon to punch out I sucss . Sut , ::r . Speaker , they arc one of the fe,_, s roups oC people in chit: Provincc , for example-who are not coverecJ by t he r.~ininum ~o-ase , those l·lho are asricultural workers . It is not an easy life . ~ut people h.~ve cor.mitte d t herselves to it, a very ~,r dy tyfe of :iewfoundlande r who ranks amons those who we should respect in thJs rrovince . They :l3ve many p-roblems to f nee in this Province .

It is not , as I say , a Province tltat has been Civen to agriculture bu t the r e arc people ~.'ho are attempting to m.:~ke a so at it. To give you some indication , llr . Speaker . He talk about cliffcren t areas that are very in ter ested in prod uction ir. this Pro vince. One - and chese will come out in the next year or tt1o !>ut I would lik.e to spea ;- ~;enerally about them now. The question c-f ,(or examp le, s.:ine :in the Province . '~c ltave made a s t art on this clurin& the buclzet speech and in the department-al estil:latcs I hope to c'elvc into it :::ore deeply . For example , in l<J7Lt, ~·r.

Speaker, •·c vroduced in ti.ls rrovi:-.ce a little over 3 million pouncls of pori,, a little o\·er 3 aillion pounds of pori· . '..'e consur:cd 25 million l•Ouncls of port. So if ..-e 1:ere sel ( ~ sufficient, there is rooc tltere for prociuction ,alout seven til1les as much as ~oe ate no~; producing to m~.e up (or that amount ldtich is consumec in this Province . 3754

March 24, 1976 Tape no. 1405 Page 1 - lllW MR. ROUSSEAU: And we have to look at that. HR. SYALLHOOD: A guaranteed industrial plant employing 1,000 people will take a couple of hundred millions. MR . ROUSSEA: h'e are not talking about big production. We are talking about little things, going along with little jobs here and a few here, good standardize<! procedures, small outlays and helpful to the people who want to get into production.

When I li"aS over in Scotland, I guess it was, it was one of the areas in which I saw a swine operation which was no bigger than a stadium, a very rough building, cut in half clown lengthwise, little cubicles, and they went in one way and they came out the other way in 173 days at a very minimal cost, and these people were making a good living and I think we can. I think we have a number of problems we have to face.

I think the biggest problem, not only for swine but for everytl1ing that we produce in this Province, is that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians all have to be proud of the fact that there are certain things we can do in this Province, and we have to support the people who produce in this Province. SOliE !:iON. }!EHBERS: Hear, hear! NR.

ROUSSEAU: And unless we can get that message across - you know, I would not care who it was~ who could do it for me, I would hire him and pay him $1 million if I thought that somebody could convince the half million people we have in this Province to support the indus tries that we have in it. SOliE HON. NE}!BERS: Hear, hear! HR. ROUSSEAU: And in my instance I am talking about the ones in my department, but I am sure the other ministers feel the same about theirs. And the Hinister of Industrial and Rural Development, of course, would feel the same about all of them.

Twenty-one, twenty-two million pounds of pork and that is going to increase, l!r. Speaker. It is going to increase. We 3755

Harch 24, 1976 Tape no. 1405 Page 2 - mw Mr. Rousseau. have no production facilities here. We have to send a lot of our products out to be processed outside the Province. Certainly we can give thought and consideration if production became large enough that we could indeed invite somebody, one of the larger packing companies who starts somebody off here in our own Province to get the final product here in this Province without having to send it out and have somebody else clo it and send it back to us and sell it at 200, 300, 400, SOC. per cent of the cost. Mr.

Speaker, a fact that is not Ve"f=y well-known is that in that abattoir over in Corner Brook we are able to put through 100,000 hogs a year - 100,000 hogs a year. HR. S~!ALLWOOD: Would the minister allow me to ask him a question?

Is he aware of the fact that about the only obstacle there is in :-;ewfoundland today to the Province becoming in six or eight or ten years entirely self-supporting in pork, the one and only obstacle in the way of that is the absence of a grain storage facility to be put here by ·the Government of Canada, and that we are virtually the only Province in Canada that has not got a federally financed and operated grain storage so that the hog raising industry will have the benefit of reasonably priced feecl? ! ffi..

ROUSSEAU: I can assure the hon. member that this goverrm1ent has already been looking into that , not only for hogs but for all other animals. We have a problem now in respect to the cost of transportation .. ~1R. SHALL WOOD: Well animals, poultry and animal feeds. HR. ROUSSEAU: I was talking to one of the dairy producers over in Corner Brool~,."-~'ich by the "ay, Mr. Speaker, till~ Hest Coast dairy production unit out there, which was on the verge of bankruptcy a couple of weelc:J ago, this government very quickly, in consultation with _my colleague, the hon. Hinister of Rural Development provided 3756

March 24, 1976 Tape no. 1405 f'age 3 - mw ~!r. Rousseau. assistance to them to get them back on their feet and hopefully we will have a dairy industry flourishing on the West Coast as a result cf that. nut one of the problems they had was that last year some time the cost of a hundred weight of hay transportation costs, was somewhere in the area of twenty, twenty-five cents. In December of this year it was up to $1.98. It February it was up to $2.12. It is very difficult for people to bring hay into the Province and feed at those increased transportation costs. It is certainly something we have to deal with, Hr.

Speaker. We cannot expect to have industries that are relying on the feed in this Province and have to pay the increasing frei3ht rates they are paying to expect· them to get a return on their dollar. I have about five minutes left do I, Mr. Speaker, I believe? Unfortunately because I am - carry on and carried on. But, Mr. Speaker 1 we would hope that this Province would become one of the few areas in the world that would produce pathogen free or disease free hogs. We would hope that some day in the future we may become an exporter of disease free hogs.

We think there are many jobs to be produced in the hog industry, not hundreds of thousands,or thousands but there is no reason why over the years, ~Ir. Speaker - and I am not talking about this year or next year or the year after, but in an orderly way that we can create a number of permanent jobs in this Province in respect to this particular industry, the swine industry. We think it is one that has a lot of potential in the Province, and government is certainly looking very favourably upon the question of increasing our hog production.

There are many problems involved with it, and it certainly would be our intention to cope wihh these and hopefully come up with some method by which we can increase the production of hogs in the Province, and add to the jobs, and add to the Gross Provimnial Product in this Province. The area of sheep we are looking at quite closely. We think that we have some future as well in sheep in this Province. Unfortunately 3757

March 24, 1976 Tape no. 1405 Page 4 - mw }fr. Rousseau . I do not have time at my disposal to mention any specif-ics, but we are looking at the question of increasing our sheep raising capacity in this Province. The dairy 3758

March 24, 1976 Tape No. 1406 IDA - 1 NJI.. JI.OUSSF.All: industry, we are attempting to keep the dairy industry viable in the Province, We will do everyth:!.ng we can to assist with that and hopefully some day again to be self-sufficient in the production of milk.

For example,eighty per cent of our milk produced in the Province comes off the Avalon Peninsula,but we have a lot of space left to increase our production and again with the ability to permit Newfoundlanders to buy Newfoundland first I am sure that our dairy industry could grow and add many more jobs to our Province, The question of regional pastures, Mr. Speaker~ this government in the last three or four years has tried very hard to increase the number of regional pastures. We have increased the number. We have increased the capacity on each of the existing ones.

And it is certainly our intention to continue with that programme. The broiler industry - the department is actively persuing the objective of self-sufficiency in the broiler industry. For example, Nr. Speaker, recent expansion figures follow in broiler marketing. In 1972 - 820,358 birds which is about 3.5 million pounds of meat. In 1975, Mr. Speaker, 1.3 million birds - 5 million pounds of meat, most of which is consumed here in the Province through one of the outlets which sell what is it - chickens, what is it you call it? NR. NEARY: - best legs in town. MR. JOUSllEAU: Yes, the best legs in town.

The best legs in town are Newfoundland legs, Mr. Speaker. That is the one we have the contract with. We supply the best legs in town. So we are pretty proud of that. AN RON. MEMBEP.: What do you do with the rest of the chicken1 ~. ROUSSEAU: But, Mr. Speaker, actively,and this is one I am really looking forward to, to explaining what our intentions are, in respect to the blueberry industry. I think there is no question in the fact that we have a great potential here in the blueberry industry.

Last year we produced 3 million pounds, the first time we went over 3 million,and our average over the past number of years has been 3759

March 24, 1~76 Tape No. 1406 Nf"!- 2 r<R. WltTSSEAU: 2 milH .on. We feel ~1e can go to 10 million. He feel we have a superior product here. We feel that by a systematic management programme of systematic - first of all 1 finding out '~here the best areas are in the Province, and we have surveyed quite a feiv areas, to burn these areas and to manage them, to build roads to them and given accessibility to them, We feel that within a number of years we could reach a potentiality of up to 10 million pounds of blueberries in this Province. Our blueberries are very good ones.

As I understand it they are mixed,one of ours to two of the mainland blueberries to give the good taste that they have,but that is not really our intention. our hope would be to set up our own processing facilities in this Province so that we would process the resource here. It is no good to give a few jobs during the summer,and then to have a company make a profit on it,which is good for this Province,and after that out it goes and somebody else processes the blueberries and ~ets the jobs that result from them. And when I speak on the Budp,et Speech I will talk about that in much great detail.

Rut I would like to mention one other thing before I sit down, a little thing;last year, I remember one day I was having dinner with the ~>'inister of Health,who was my predecessor,and the Premier and the question of garden plots came up.

I do not know at first "-'bether it <Jas serious but the Premier took a very kind ilk to it and we looked :l.nto it and as all hon. members know and as all people who partic1.pated 1.n this programme last year, it was a very, very successful programme, not done on a large scale last year, hopefully on a much larger scale this year and hopefully it will grow into something that the people of this Province will be very proud of and very interested in. Pe had very good results last year. l1ost of the people worked very hard on their lots.

There was very, very, very little vandalism. l~e had people helping out the people who were gro-.,7ing their products on 3760

Harch 24, 1976 Tape No. 1406 NM- 3 :MR. ROUSSEAU: these lots and it is our intention to continue with this programme this year and hopefully to enlarge it. This is a very small programme,but I think a programme that interested many people all across the Province and hopefully will grow as the years go by. There are a number of other things I could talk about, vr.

Speaker, the question of marketing in agriculture but I have gone - I am just about at the end of my time - but the reason why I wanted to bring these up,like I say, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned two weeks ago, and I let it go and I said I would mention this when the budget came up)but the hon. member for Lewisporte mentioned it last week,and I thought that it might be an idea to get up and give the House some indication of what we are attempting to do in the Department of Fore.stry and Agriculture. It is not easy, ~r.

Speaker, You do not just flick a finger in the department and you al~ of a sudden decide you are going to introduce a programme. There are a lot of problems involved with it. There is a lot of detail and a lot of bureaucracy that has to enter into the finalization of any programme. But the attempts are there and I do not know what the hon. Leader of the Opposition's motion in respect to the select committee is needed.

I have gone around and I have talked to the people that I am concerned with,who are the farmers and the producers and I know what their ideas are, I know what their problems are so I could consider myself as 3761

~larch 2ll, 1976 Tape 1407 PK- 1 Hr. Rousseau: a select committee of one of the House talking to the people who I am Horking for who are the farmers and the foresters of this Province. So anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is a few comments on what we are doing in the department and what we hope to do and where we are going. And certainly when the Budget comes down and when I have an opportunity to talk to my estimates in the House of Assembly we can go into much greater detail on the items that I have raised and only gone over very superficially during the past few minutes. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Baie Verte-1-.'hlte ~1R. T. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, this particular motion that is before us today strikes at the heart of 1~hat we are about or what I feel we ought to be about as members of this House of Assembly. It identifies the fact,the well-known fact that many of our people are concerned about the future of our Province. It suggests, and rip,htly so,that many of our people are concerned about the rate of growth . and dcve:opment of our Province. It suggests ~hat many people are concerned about the kind of development that shoulci he encouraged in this Province.

This moti.on then 1 having indentified these facts,offers a positive solution;that a select committee of this House be appointed to report on the prospects for economic growth and development of :~ e\·.'fntmdland and Labrador, especially those best suited to and Jc:: ired by tile pe0pl c of t 'l n Province. Now, Sir, I think that •rould be a good thinp,. I ':le.lieve it.would be right and proper for the pecple of this Province to have some direct input, some direct say iato hew this Province should be developed, into what direction we s~1 ould J,e going.

Such a committee as proposed in this motion, Sir, woulcl give our people that chance. It would provide a much better cl.cmcc than "'ould a two or three day conference helc! in some town or city in the Province. It ,_·ould go to the people. It would be 3762

March 24, 1976 Tape 1407 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: assessible to the vast majority of our people. Therefore it would benefit from the thoughts and ideas of the many r~ther than face the th~eat of domination by. the few and by the powerful and the mighty and the out spoken. That I feel, Sir, would be a good thing. There are many thousands of people in many hundreds of communities in this Province who have an idea that is particularly suited to their own area 1 an idea though small in itself that might form the basis for some sort of local development.

And I believe, Sir, that that is the type of development that we must go after in this Province, develop~ent based on our own resources, 8evelo~ent that is based on what we have, development that will enable our people to work at the things that they can do best. In other words, Sir, development that concentrates on using our own resources to the fullest possible extent. There are, Sir, I suppose those among us who are saying already, there go the Liberal swingers again making a complete about­ face and heading off in a different direction that is completely opposite to what the Liberal Party always stood for.

But, Sir, is there something terribly wrong with that? Cannot a political party change its views, modify its stand or point in new directions? A political party like another organization in my mind will reflect the ideals and the goals of the people that support it. Therefore it is to be expected that as the composition of the party undergoes a change,so therefore will the party thereafter tend to drift in slightly different directions. That is natural. It is normal. I believe it is good.

It provides for new approaches to new problems, approaches moulded and tempered by people of today, for today rather than bound and tied to the past, It means that the party is fresh and flexible, prepared to tackle the problems of the 1970's and 1980's, just as it was prepared to tackle the problems of previous decades. Sir, I make no apology for that. The member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) in speaking ·in this debate last week might like to see us in this party sing the old songs and dance the old tunes. 3763

'larch 24 , 1976 Tape 1407 PK - 3 t'r . Rideou ~: And we ~1ill, Sir , where they offer solutions to tod ay 's problems. But where they do not, Si-r, we will change . t;e will be flexible. lie will venture into nel•l direc t ions . We will do thOtt because we nre a part y . Tbo~r.h ~indful of the past we are not bound by it; t hou~h proud of t-any of the past achievements we reco&nize th11t mi,;cakes were nade. This in itself means that ve must adopt and change priorities, change emphasis, and change d=rec tion. We wi~ do that, 3764

narch 24,1976 Tape ll108 IB-1 ~'1Jt. RIDEOUT: Sir, we have clone that, and I have no doubt that all political parties have done it ancl 1vi1l do it at;ain. Change bespeaks life, vibrance and living, a healthy sign for any political party. Sir, I ar.t not against t:leveloping great industrial projects if they are [Clir.~; to be for the r.reater good of this Province 1but if they are go:!.ng to bP. a rock :~round our necks, if they are going to be more of a linb:!lity than an asset, then, Sir, l>hat is the point?

I ""elcome industrial clevelopr.!ent, Sir, but it must be the type that is suited to our :rc~;founclland situation. It must to a large degree be the type of industrial development that is based on our Ne1~founclland resources. You cannot build a house, Sir, by starting at the roof and ·.wrking doWI1 to the foundation. It must, as we all know, be done in the reverse. In the same way I feel that we in this Province must build a fi= industrial foundation. But if it is to be firm, if it is to last, it must be buj_lt on what we have here.

When that hl'ls been accomplished, Sir, when that foundation has been solidly laid,then r.~aybe, just maybe, we can turn in new directions. But, Sir, let us not put the cart before the horse. J,et us not lose sight of ,,·hat 1~e hnve ourselves because of the r;laMour and the false hopes offered by huge industrial projects. Sir, ••e have many resources in this ProYince that we are not exploiting to our maximum benefit. In the area of fisheries, for example, in LaScie in vfuite Bay in my district there is one of the largest and most modern fish plants that we have in this Province.

Yet it concentrates almost solely on processing cod, salmon and a limited amount of herring and squid. But as I understand it from fisheries officials,there is located in the Hhite Bay area one of the largest areas of queen crab to be found anywhere in Atlantic Canada. But 1mat is happening to that resource,Sid !!hjJe the L:-~Scic pl.:lnt sits idle and our people remain unemployecl., the <]ueen cr:-~h is being fished by a fe~o~ fishermen, brought into maybe either !'leur de Lys or Jackson's Arm, placed on huge cold storage trucks and haulerl right out of this Province, some of it into Nova Scotia 3765

~'arch 24, 1976 I~-2 p:. 1U:>f.OUT: SC'T!lC more into ~J cv: nruns' ":ic.k and most of j _t Jnt0 the llni tecl St.:tt~s. Yet \vC have a fish plant ri[;ht in that, area, aml ns I undcrsto:md from the people operating it j_t is capable of processin[; that crab thereby providing er.tployment for our people for a longer perjod of till'e than is nov; the c?se. Also of course ~1e coulc' J,c shjppinr, out therefore a processed product from this Province that would return a very high price from the vmrld market.

No"'• Sir, to me there is something wrong for this to be happening. ~Je have the resource, we have the facility to process it. \Jhy are '•7e not then taldng ;oclvnntage of it? That plant in !.aScie,ns I unden;t:mcl froM the people clirectly connected '''itb it, could also process seal meat for '1-tuman consumption and also squid. T.ocal officials at the plant tell me that there is a good market for squid in Japan on a~ experimental basis, again as food for people . '1nt as yet \ce arE' npparently draggin::; our feet.

In other vords, Sir, as I have said before ~1e are not clevelopi.nr, to the createst possible extent for our o~m eoocl those tldnzs ••hich He have, our m,n resources. I have only useG the rjsheries as one example. I knovr there are many others in the fielc1s of mininc nnd forestry and tourism and handicrafts nncl !'lucberry deve]oprnent and so on.

It concerns ne that Pe in this Province arc,minber one, not utilizing our mm resources to the fullest extent and,number tl-70, ,,,hen ''e are clC~ine so ,,.e tend to ship the resources out of this Province in raw forl'l, in an unfinished state to be further manufacturecl . else where thus proviilinc more jobs and earn jnz. iilcrc Y~one;· for ethers. Sir, i_f ~:e are to hujlci a firm econon1c !Jase in thi_s rrovince thi~ type of t111"f; h:1s to !'e stopped. Fhere poss~ b J_c '7e r ' u~;t ~ l

q) n t<' 11r-e tl;c regource,; •·7e. have fClr our o~m greatest r-os,;-tb1 c [;C'C'rl. f;j r, <:'1nther part of this T'IOtion which concerns me - ::md I hE'licve tlwt it is a,-, are" of ,leep concern to nany people jn tl!is Provtnce - j s the k:inc of r;ro v th <1n<' clevelop!"ent that shC~ulr' be 3766

":~rch 24 , 1 "71'. Tape l4')R !S- 3 ,.., "PIEOUT: cncournzerl in Nc11foundlantl . In c'evelopins cur rt>sourc e ~, :::11:', ••c r110t hccoroe !"<"re a••ore :~n<l be more concerned about what the long- tern results of such development will be . ::o!.-Jt will i>e tl.e effects of :ouc;, o.!evelor-Ment on tl:e environcen t? ~:hat to/ill be the effects un the healt h ar people t.oho t,·ori< or who live in the orco of a pnrticclar <'c vc loprncnt? !:ir , I do not buy tue arg=.cnt of c;levelop c:ent nt ony price. I n ever .U<! :1nd I hope I never ·-·ill su!>llcribe to suc h .a tilC<•ry. Yes , we tvant jobs.

The re is nut!ain::, else •.:c H:c~nt more in thi s rr<>vi ~ c e . ~ !e need jobs . I:veryl.lody vlill agree wit!: Ll,:;t. ::ul, !:ir, t he r e cor e s a po int when one has to r"a'l! e c:: t!ccisi or.. ·.:lla t Js •:ore i r·;,ort iln t , til e [ e"' jobs that a particul:tr c!evelopnent t:Hl vro\'idc or the l.<•nlt h of the people of the whole area ? I an thinking no11, Sir, in particular of places like 3ay \'erte anc St. La~o'l:en ce. I '"ill have ~r.ore to say about the Bay \'erte situation at a more appropriate time .

Sut there are certain asp ects of that particular situation that I feel relate to the guts of thjs motion . There are 500 people directly •~orting at t.dvocate ~!ines in Bay \'erte . I do not want to see t hat operation close tlot.m. ~:e h;.tve hnrl mor e than our share o f close clo,ms in the industrial his tory of this Province, Sir. 'I'ltc '~hole economy o f the Bay Verte Peninsula centers 3round t he roininS industry as it stands today. So no fool would wisl1 to see the operation fold . tut, Sir, we mus1: be concernec . ~! e kno~; not,· that asbestos c'ust is dangerous to health . l-ie knolo' in fact 3767

1FT- J. dust levelR in <"mel arouncl Tlaie Verte arE' f:u greater than trw 11ccepte<l tnlC'ranccc level. So, Sir, we have an obligation to insure th.1t thA.t pA.rticular hazard is controllecJ ,and it can 1-e controlled. This is an arP.a v1here ~-;e should move ,,rj th tl1e greatest of speed. I am not an ~nvo~ate,and there is certainly no pun intended,of doom or panic. Tlut •;e cannot afford to play games T;ith or take cllances with the 1 ives of people in thnt rrrea or any area. The problem has heen :i<1entified. "m.; "" must l'!ove quickly to control it.

It is too late to monn and r:roan "'hen tl1cc peonle l1e•dn to shmv the i 11 effects of over-exposure to asl>estos ilust. If we Here not aware of the prohlem, ~i r, there nrohnJilv ,,,auld l,p <lP excuse. llut we are aware of it, so we must net. Sir, as tl-Jis motion suggests, the input of the people should and could ''c> vital in a situation such as this. So, Sir, He do neerl to chart a course for the future of this Province. ~his motion is a nositive sug~estion of how it can he done.

While we need ;mel >re will continue to need the 11dvice of experts, Sir, let us not overlool·. the expertise that is available right here amonrst our mvn people. The experience, the expertise, the initiative, the desire to survive and malce a living of our own people protably is the greatest thing that this Province has going for it. So let us go out and. tap t"hat experience, S:!_r. I su)l:gest that a select committee of this House? as outlined. in the motion before us today,is the hest possible way of rlninr iur.t that. Thanlc you. smm llON. 'lE1·"JlERS: Hear, hear! lffi.. T'F:CKFORD: '~r.

Speaker, I think that alJ that the previous speak<'r has sa i,! T cnu1<1 ngree >vith lfl(] per cent,except the part that deals with the select commi t te: ''hich is, of course, the real guts of the motion. In my opinion, t'r. Spe;-~kf'r, 1ve have had enough studies and committees and so on lool~ing at tl1e resource potential in this Province, looking at chartering a course 3768

}'[arch 24, 1976. MR. PECKFORD: Tape 1409 RH- 2 for the future and all the rest of it. But when you boil it all down, Mr. Sneaker, '~hen you boil it all dmm into one or two ideas or thoughts, it seems to me that what has got to happen in this T'rovince is that there has got to be a revolution in attitude by all the people of this Province ,and the revolution in attitude away from demanding all th«' sod.al amenities which we a;ll want and need,and rather put our emphasis on the resource based kinds of activities that is Roinp, to create the kinds of dollars that will then give us the social amenities that we want.

It seems to me that over the last couple of decades what we have been doing as a Province,and what ue have been doing as a country is that we have been putting most of our dollars in the basket of social programmes and very few in the basket of viable economic programmes so that we find today in many places around this Province expensive hospitals,which are needed,and expensive schools,which are needed, expensive water and sewer systems, which are needed.

We have gone overboard in our emphasis on the social programmes, tvhich are dynamite politically, and thereby sacrifice all those dollars in those social programmes which nobody can argue with to the detriment of getting small viable industries r,oinr, around this Province. No~' I think with all due respects to the member for Twill inp,ate (Mr.

SmalhJOod) that the emphasis was during the first ten or fifteen years of his administration,even though he can say that he is for big industry, large industry, medium industry, small industry, tiny industry, the emphasis was,and as he readily acknowledges it has been a Liberal philosophy for a long time- the railway in 1895, Price (NFLD.) in 1905, Bowaters in 1925, and so on- all these great industrial enterprises which have proven to be beneficial to the Province were developments that occurred under a Liberal administration and so on and I readily acknowlege that. 3769

March 24, 1976, Tape 1410, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: It seems to me the emphasis has been - when there has been a sound industrial development policy,or a policy - the emphasis has on the major one where it took large sums of capital borrowing by the Pr.ovince to bring them about.

Now it seems to me, what we have to do - and it is no good for every member in this House to get up and pay lip service to this kind of an idea and to this kind of an attitude - the people of the Province in every community and district must begin to recognize that if thi .s Province is ever going to be saved,in the sense of being a have Province,they are going to have to sacrifice some of the social amenities in the next decade in order to get the economic things that we need so that we can then carry on on a more balanced course toward a proper - or the destiny which we all want. MR. MURPHY: Hear, hear! MR.

PECKFORD: Otherwise we will never get it and we will always remain no more than a glorified colony of Ottawa. As I have said in public speeches around the Province in the last six months, all we did in 1949 in actual fact, w.as to change the capital from London to Ottawa. And although Confederation means by its very definition, in its formation,that we will provide equalization grants from the wealthier province to the less wealthy provinces to try to get the balance and to have - that is what Confederation is all about and all the rest of it.

But we as proud Newfoundlanders have as our aim - although our methods may be different as parties here in this bon. House - have as our aim to be a have Province. And if there is anybody in this Chamber or in this Province who has as their aim anything less than that, then I do not think they are being true to Newfoundland and its destiny. But I come back to the point that we must develop strategies and it cannot be done through a select committee. I believe that we all know here, we have read the reports over the years done by a lot of people , which the hon. the member for 3770

April 1, 1976, Tape 1410, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) had had a lot of them done through the old Department of Community and Social Development and through other departments 1 everybody seems to recognize, and I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition does recognize, because I have read statements that he made in this bon. House in the Come By Chance oil refinery deal back in 1968, or whenever it was, which I will quote later, where his whole thrust was on heavy industry and I am glad to see him change his philosophy, much to the chagrin of the member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood), to a more balanced one of developing the small industries that can work in LeScie or Fleur de Lys or wherever - or Jackson's Arm where I am sure something can be done. But you cannot,on the one hand,advocate the . kind of thing that I am advocating,and on the other hand go out to your district as a members - and you have to get down to facts about it - and forget the idea of economic development for that district,but just push for roads and water and sewer and this and that and something else and yet the unemployment rate in that very community is 25 or 30 per cent. You cannot have it both ways. MR.

SMALLWOOD: What the minister is saying is that Newfoundland cannot afford to have both. MR. PECKFORD: UR. SMALLWOOD: MR. PECKFORD: At the same time. At the same time. Right! Right! Exactly! And we have to - that is an issue that we have not,as a Province,really addressed ourselves to,and I think today, with inflation and so on, has brought it to our attention .a lot quicker perhaps than it other- wise would.

We have to be serious about saying to our own constituents and to Newfoundlanders in general - and not only that, we are going to have to work harder with the same amount of money or less than another worker is getting on the mainland. Our productivity per man must be greater - not as much as, not equal to - but greater than the productivity of another individual in Ontario. It bas to be if we are ever going to create the new dollars. 3771

~~ rch 24, 1976, Tape 1410, Page 3 -- apb MR • PECKFORD: But WE' now have it the other way around and it is pan of the social revolution. I was astounded when I went to London there after the Fall election to study some housing projects outside London and in the Midland area of F.n~land. I remember one evening coming back and I was going in through the lobby of the hotel and there were two gentlemen sittinA there and I was buying some newspapers and I said hello to them and I asked them who they wer e and so on . These two indi viduals, fascinating! I asked them what they were doing . They were unemployed.

So I said, "Very good, where do you live?" and so en. They were unemployed, they were collecting something like Unemployment Insurance, number one. Number two, they both had an apartment which was subsidized by the government, which 3772

~1arch 24, 1976 Tape no. 1411 Page 1 - mw Mr. Peckford. had a maid come in and clean up their room, their apartment every day free of cost. TI1ey were burdens on the taxpayers of England, and ~perhaps that might not be characteristic of England, but I can only say from my small bit of experience. But if it is, no wonder England is in trouble. They have gone too far on the social, and you cannot have it both ways. Forget about England. Here in this Province,in the position that we find outselves in, it is impossible, completely impossible. Something has got to give.

I cannot have a water and sewer system in Green Bay, and expect at the same time to try to get the Department of Fisheries or the Department of Forestry and Agriculture or some other resource department to be able to stimulate employment in that area. I cannot have it both ways, and the Province cannot have it both ways. MR. SMALL WOOD: If the minister will allow me? Does he not realize that overwhelmingly the social development we have had has come from Uncle Ottawa, overhwhelmingly, roads, almost everything you can think of? MR. PECKFORD: Right.

But we are in a position now, as-the hon. inember-foJ: Twillingat:e (Mi-. Smallwood) knows as well as I do, that we are locked into a system right now where to maintain hospitals, to maintain roads, to maintain - l,,hat is for a hospital, the Minister of Finance, the capital cost of a hospital? Say it is $40 million. In two and one-half years the maintenance cost will equal the capital cost. MR. SMALLWOOD: We are living very high on the hog,are we not? MR. DOODY: The current account - MR. SMALLWOOD: But the budget will take care of that. MR.

PECKFORD: What we got to do as a Province, and I am not being partisan - HR. SMALLWOOD: We hope. HR.. PECKFORD: - what we got to do as a Province is that we do not 3773

}!arch 24, 19 76 Tape no. 1411 Page 2 - mw ~ir. Peckford . need a select committee, }tr. Speaker. Everybody recogn~zes that there has to be a a more balanced approach to our economic and industrial policies. And what we have got to try to do with any monies that we have is to get on with the job of developing strategies to bring employment in the small and medium sector of our economy, always with an eye open to a good sound deal for this Province that might be proposed to us by some entrepreneur from wherever. But that is what has to be done with those.

And I was very pleased to be a part of and approve the policy brought in by the han. Uinister for Rural and Industrial Development relating to the bigger sawmills in the Province there a couple of weeks ago to buy their lumber and leave it on their premises. That is a good step forward. It has to be developed further and made into a permanent kind of policy to help out the sawmill industry in getting into even - you know, talking about making axe handles or whatever you can get a market for.

And in the blueberry industry, you know, that we mentioned in the Speech from the Throne and so on and some gentleman was down here from the }iainland, and was president of some association, talking about it, and we can do a lot more in that field, and it is fairly labour intensive - and on the fishery angle. I do not think a select committee is the answer to it. It is going to be difficult to get.

I think that we know what the trends would be through a select committee, through the regional development associations that are established in twenty-five or thirty areas of the Province, Sir, continually agitating through their members and through ministers of the government,of the kind of plans that can be brought into fruition that ~~ill stimulate and increase employment in their area. TI1at is not the answer. The answer is twofold. One, with what money the government have available at its disposal after it gets rid 3774

March 24, 19 76 Tape no. 1411 Page 3 - 1IIW Mr.

Peckford. of the maintenance costs on all public things that its bound into,with whatever they have left over_ they have to try to reduce where possible, and they got to reduce where possible, the capital on social programmes and use a fair amount of that capital from the social programmes on the economic programmes,and if the gcivert~~~~ent can do that, and show the people that X number of dollars, which would have been used for that, is used for this industry which now has forty people employed and it is viable, then I think the people of Newfoundland will buy it, and at the same time indicate to them that this kind of trade off has to eontined to be made for the next twenty years.

So you will slow down your rate i:if capital const):'uction on social pro.g:ramm.es, and simultaneously increase with what is left over the capital fund:lng in resource programmes. And it 1$ only in that way that we are ever going to get- out of the bind tl:lat Newfoundland h.as been in. It is very, ver:y interest:l.ng to read Newfoundland history from 1895 say to 1970, which I have been doing

}'arch 24, 1976 Tape 1412 IB-1 HP.. PECKFORD : a fair amount over the last six months, very interesting, and to find the same things happening over and over again,and that vie are still in the same bind that we vere thirty or forty or fifty years ago. No difference only right now there is no world war but we are in the same kind of economic bind.

The only difference is that socially, yes, through Ottawa we are better off,obviously; the standard of living,if you relate it to housing, if you relate it to whatever, vie are. r.ut we have got to recognize as a people and it has got to seep down to the last individual sitting in his rocking chair in Toogood Arm that from thenceforward for the next twenty years we have got to stop making ourselves in our own homes to have the same comforts and everything as they have in Hamilton,Ontario but yet our per capita debt is three or four times greater. There is something wrong, somethi:1g wrong.

So I think the twist has got to go around and we have got to make trade-offs. The rate of money put into social capital construction has to be sacrificed, and increase that rate in the resource area and it has got to be done on a sound basis. It has got to be done on an action prograrmne over ten or fifteen years,and you have got to identify what we can do ~'ell. In one place the new little fish plant will lvork. In another place it cannot "'ork,and you say it cannot work and you are not going to have a fish plant,because it is not viable there,but it is viable here and go ahead and put it there.

And blueberries 1.-dll grmv here,and they will not grow there. So I know they grow !tere so "We 1•ill develop the roads and burn the bushes and get blueberries growing here. Identify those areas and go ahead and do it. The reason l,,hy there is not a new hospital there ,or a nevi school there is because ve wanted to get on with creating ne"' dollars, wilich Hill in fact ensure a better social programme fifteen years dovm 3776

~1arch 24, 1976 Tape 1412 IB-2 l!R. PECKFORD: the road for all our people and for our chilclren and our children 1 s children and so on. That is the answer and that is the only answer. Until that comes througl1 to the people of the Province then we are ' in trouble,because you can take it theoretically,on the democracy side as saying, whatever the people say, agitate for as a group, the majority in my district, I am compelled as their representative to reflect and pass on their views and to have programmes initiated there to satisfy those demands. nut in the first instance they might not he proper.

That is because they have not read Edmund Burke, is it not? ~ T. PE CKFOT'.D : Yes,or John Steward !fill or - ~'Jl . Sl:!ALL\TOOD: No, I:dmund Burke. _Ail no;;r. 1:EHEI:R : James Charles Fox. l'"P. PECI~FORJ): !:r. Speaker, in ado:!ressing myself to the resolutj.or. I l:N!1 <1 s a y that we do not need a select col"..mittee. l-ie, as a governl"ent, have to get on ~lith the job of developing the kind of sm-mill polic y that ~; e just initiated on a temporary basis. Ue have to get 0n with the job of bringing in a sound forestry manar.ement programme li"hich w1.11 release more wood for our locgers to cut.

I thin!~ it is dol,'Il in my 01'n area where a tn2.nagernent area will soon he coming into existence, and there are 300,000 nr l,QO, 000 cords of 1mod lying near P.obert 1 s Arm that should be cut. Hopefully uncler this management policy the annual allo~·able cut F :lll be identified on that block. 1t Le l onr;s to BoHaters,and they go to nm.7atcrs and say, ":Col·mters, tld r, is the annual allm~able cut on this block. Arc you goinr; to cut it? You have to cut it." If they s ay, no, then we charge them a tax on that annual allowable cut.

Or if Bowaters say .• 1 •;<'ill eive it to Joe Blow in Roberts Arm to cut, fine. Fine and dandy! This Hill provide more jobs. NOlv it has been taking a long Hhile to eet that management policy in pJ nee. I am the first 3777

'lnrch 21., 1976 Tape 1412 18-3 to say a~ a rncmher of ~ov~r~nt it is takinc teo lone. It is frustrating . But if you are going to get a good prosramne and being f:litly close to that prozr=e , bccause I am in a forestry district I realize the problems inherent in chan~ing the policy arounc: ant' :;ctti.n& the comrnnies to sit cl0\\'1'1 and so on)but it is vitall y necessary, in the fishery and the Premier 's recent trip oversc<Js l\nd so <r.l t<' try to do sor:ething on that score. 'lle have got to cct on it. !-!c kno~ •..:hat the problems are.

I do not rnenn to sound like ~~e an~ all- perfect nne! have the t>nnaccn tCl nll the economy ills })ut I rlo not think a select com:mittee c11n <'o jt. He have the responsibHity as a government now tCl lead nnd to get on wtth the jClb of trying to provide jobs,cor.nizant of all tloe studies and all the thin&s and recognizing that there has to be somo social s<>crificc ~tnd that there h::ts to be a rcvolution of attituce within thi::: Province if ve :tre ever coing to bc a have Province nnd to take our place in the sun. P.ellr, hear ! I \ 377-8

March 24, l<l7fi. Tape 1413 RH - 1 SOME HON. MF.'ffillRS: Hear, hear! '!R. J. BODDEn: Mr. Speaker, I believe that we should have a select committee to inquire and report upon the prospects for Newfoundland and Labrador including those of economic growth and deveJopment,and in particular consideration of those types of developments which are suited to foster and to encourage the Newfoundland way of life. I feel that this committee and its findinp.s should be the center of a plan for the future. What is Newfoundland's present plan for the future? •fuere are we going?

After five years in power this government still does not have an overall plan, a list of priorities, a plan for the future. There have been some royal commissions. Some studies have been done on selected areas of the Province. Hhile those studies are good in themselves and may help us in the short run perhaps over specific problems, they do not give us a SlJecific goal. l<Te have yet to develop a sense of priorities. ~~r. Speaker, our population is growing. Our spending has doubled and unemployment gets worse. With this backdrop we go to Ottawa and say, "Help us. r,ive us a hand.

We need more money to stay afloat. The ship is sinking." Would it not be better if we went to Ottawa and said, "This is our plan. These are our priorities. This is what we want now. This is what we will be looking for in two years time." Then we can show Ottawa that lve have a plan, one that our people presumably are aware of and approve. Mr. Speaker, the people would not mind cutbacks so much if thev were made in conjunction with an overall plan, if they knew that the government ~ad priorities and that the cutbacks were temporarily and that this government was still moving towards stated goals.

The government cannot no it all, I realize that. However good they are they cannot take the Province by the boot straps and drag us up. But they must know in what direction we should go and they must set up conditions to insure that these directions can be best adhered to. I speak in terms of overall stated goals with certain time sequences in which to carry them out, plans that have been arrived at in consultation with the people, the experts and alJ the parties. 3779

)fnrch 24, ]Q7fi. l!R. !l(lDDFR: Tape 1413 RR - 2 Hr. Speaker, we have all heard of Russia's five year plans. I do not think that they have achieved what they set out to do once. Rut the country ha~ kept moving at a very steady pace. They came from the most backward nation on earth in the 1920's to a world leader in the 1950's There are still problems hut they have moved forward rapidly. Nm~ I '"auld not lilce it to be taken that I am advocating an authoritarian government.

I am merely saying that a government must know where they are going with people,proved,stated objectives so that when another government takes over the plan is still there. If a plan has puhlicly stated objectives it will not be easy to turn around. As I said earlier there has been some planning. We are all aware of this. Studies have h('en done but IJe still cannot say where our main thrust is.

Fe are, as the Leaner of the Oppositi.on staten earlier in the nehate, lurching from policy to policy and from crisis to crisis. ~~ile we have heen running to Ottal·•a for this or that the Province of Prince Edward Island has receivec1 a development plan. It was not all their own, but they have been moving on a fairly even path for the last seven or eight years. They have lookec1 at their·provi.nce as one unit and have instituted land use -programmes and they have r1eci.ded what future they want. They seem to know where they are going. We must as well, Hr.

Speaker, look to our energy, our primary resources, our energy, our fishery, our minerals, our forest products and our tourist industry and most important of all our people. We must decide where He '"ant to he as far as their development is concerned in two years, five years or ten years. Our fishery industry, to pardon the pun, has misse<l the boat. He are further behind the rest of the ~o~orld today than '"e like to think about. The present Department of Fisheries seems sold on the idea of bringing in large companies from the mainland. This may 3780

March 24, 1976 Tape 1414 PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: take up the slack, so as to speak,·it may help in the short run, but it is a very short-term answer. In the long run we must train the local entrepreneur and the local fishermen to sh0'\>7 his own initiative. In my district, the historic district of Port au Port,both the fisherman and the farmer forsook their professions to avail themselves of the more secure livelihood offered by the Americans when the Base 1ms built, and they have not really recovered from it. The fishery became a part-time occupation for many and its development 1•7aS retarded in this area by about twenty years, }fr. Speaker, we are told that we have a c