Manitoba Hansard — 11 July 2000 (Sitting 59, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-59

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Th irty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 59- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, July 11, 2000

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LA THLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROC AN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3817 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 11,2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Forecast Hon. Steve Ashton (Min ister of Highways and Government Services): I have a statement, Mr.

Speaker. Manitoba has experienced some very heavy rains during this month. This is of concern to all Manitobans, especially for those who have been directly affected by residential flooding. To date, there have been four resolutions passed by muni cipal governments requesting provincial support as a result of these heavy rains. These munici palities are Lac du Bonnet, La Broquerie, Stuart bum and Springfield. In addition, I am advised that a number of other municipalities are con sidering similar resolutions.

Staff from the Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization are in contact with local governments to monitor the impact the heavy rains have had and are having across the pro vince. While the significant precipitation has increased saturated groundwater levels and are raising the levels of the Red and Assiniboine rivers, all major waterways in the province are within their banks and no communities are being threatened.

Staff at Manitoba Emergency Mea sures Organization are also working with other departments to ensure a capability to respond to this issue on a co-ord inated basis if there is need for emergent action. Thank you. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Sp eaker, we on this side appreciate the Minister's statement of concern. I think that is the best way you can describe it.

We also take note, and I would ask all members of the Chamber to take note, that while the inconvenience and the cost of flooded basements can be pretty onerous on too many of our citizens, add to that the loss of income if it involves agricultural land and farmlands, which all too many farmers are also experiencing at the same time. I only want to encourage the Government, through his agencies, Emergency Measures Or ganization, to work in concert with the muni cipalities to the best of their ability. It is a dif ficult situation when Mother Nature turns on the tap. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to table the June 2000 Provincial Auditor's Report to the Legislative Assembly on Value-f or-Money Audits as re quired by sections 52.27(1) of The Legislative Assembly Act. Hon. Becky Barrett (Min ister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, today I am pleased to table the 2000- 200 I Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Legislative Review for the Manitoba Civil Ser vice Commission. Hon. Jean Friesen (Min ister of Intergovern mental Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Financial Statement for the year ending March 31, 1999, for the Leaf Rapids Town Properties.

3818 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11, 2000 I would like to table the Supplementary Esti mates for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs, 2000-2001. *( 13:35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Disaster Assista nce Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I know that the Minister responsible for disaster assis tance did make a statement in the House and talked about the communities that had flooding, did not mention the homes in the city of Winnipeg that have had their basements flooded, but I think significant issues right across the province with the heavy rains need to be addressed. I would like to ask the Premier if his government has put in place the proper supports necessary for those homeowners, businesses and farmers affected, and do those individuals have access to information that tells them what programs might be available to them? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Emergency Measures Organization, the Depart ment of Agriculture, the Department of Con servation and the Crop Insurance indirectly affected or potentially affected by the water damages have all been working full out. The Department of Conservation last week put out an alert on flooding for streams and an alert on the rather dramatic saturation of the basin that is taking place and has taken place, particularly in the storm of last Friday morning.

We are cer tainly monitoring the situation today with weather forecasts for potential hail in some agri cultural parts of our province that we are watching very carefully for its impact on pro ducers. We are also very concerned and have on alert the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Conservation, particularly in the La Broquerie area, for livestock and potential damage there with the very, very high water levels in some of those regions. The specific requests from different municipalities and particularly flooding in the Capital Region-I believe there were over 300 homes flooded.

We are assessing now which homes were flooded based on backup of sewers, which would be legitimately covered by in surance and which homes were flooded by overland water damage, so the answer to the question is yes. Information Briefings Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for the answer. The custom in the past when natural disasters hit the province has been for the Government to prov ide timely briefings to members of the Opposition.

I would ask the Premier if he would be able to set up some briefings for members of our caucus, specifically cnt1cs for Agriculture, Inter governmental Affairs, Conservation and others that might be appropriate, so we could be up to date on the information that is coming forward, and that we also might understand and know what measures the Government is putting in place to address the issues. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we did appreciate in the flood of '97, the former minister of Natural Resources providing daily updates, and as well the former minister res ponsible for Emergency Measures pro viding updates often. Sometimes there were two up dates with ministerial statements in the same pre-Question Period item on the order of busi ness. We wiii continue that practice and have further information from our ministers on the status. We are certainly prepared. This is an issue that is not partisan. The rain is not partisan.

The policy differences, when we are dealing with people in need, are real across all consti tuencies, and we are certainly willing and able to put forward our ministers, not only to give you advice on what we are hearing from our experts in our departments but also to listen to the advice you are getting from your constituents. Mrs. Mitchelson: I thank the Premier again for that answer. We would look forward to those regular updates and briefings. Agricultural Income Disaster Assista nce Shortfall Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition ): Mr.

Speaker, recently in the farm media we have seen reports that the

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3819 AIDA program could experience a shortfall in dollars to cover the 1999 crop year. In fact, an AIDA spokesperson has stated that there is no guarantee that the dollars will be there. Whenever Manitoba farmers are ex periencing a second very difficult year as well as continued low commodity prices, what as surances can the Premier give to Manitoba's far mers that the safety net programs they count on will be there for them and that their payments will not be delayed or prorated? Hon.

Rosano Wowchuk (Min ister of Agri culture and Food): There have been articles recently in the paper about the possibility of a shortfall in AIDA. In fact, the federal government has reduced the amount they are putting out in the preliminary payment. The province is maintaining their level at the same level that it was last year. It is a little early for us to prejudge, because the deadline for the AIDA has not been completed. In fact, the deadline for AIDA appli cations has been extended for a couple of addi tional months in order that farmers can get their applications in.

When those applications are in, the administrators will be able to determine whether or not there is a shortfall, but from the numbers that I have had, the Province will have adequate money in the fund. * (13:40) Flooding Agricultural Disaster Assistance Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): On Saturday afternoon, I had the occasion to tour much of the flooded part of the eastern part of the province, the municipality of La Broquerie, some of the municipality of Stuart burn and indeed part of the Beausejour area. Some of the flooding that I saw was disheartening to say the least.

Cows standing up to their bellies in water, dairy barns flooded, machine sheds and homes surrounded with water. Indeed, many of the roads were not travellable because they were washed out or being washed out as we watched, and much of the farmland, including potatoes and hay land, bales of hay floating down streams. Can the Minister of Agriculture explain how her new disaster program will help those farmers who will have virtual total crop losses, and how the design of the new program will in fact help alleviate the hurt that is being experienced by those farmers that we see currently? Hon.

Rosano Wowchuk (Min ister of Agri culture and Food): The disaster assistance program that the Member speaks of is one that we have just signed a framework agreement on. The details are being worked out. I hope the de tails that we work out will provide producers with better protection than they had under the AIDA program, which the Member knows farmers were very frustrated with. I want to tell the Member that I am very concerned about the situation in the southeast part of the province. It is one that we are monitoring very closely. We are looking at what supports are going to have to be provided.

The applications under Crop Insurance, as well as the disaster assistance program, I am sure are going to increase dramatically, but we also have to monitor the situation with the livestock, which is very serious right now. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would be able to or could explain to us how the people in Quebec, the farmers in Quebec were given a 38% funding increase un der this new so-called disaster assistance pro gram, how the farmers in Ontario were given a 28% increase, and indeed the farmers in British Columbia were given a 92% increase.

How will this minister be able to assure the farmers in her province when they face total crop losses, as many of them in the La Broquerie area especially will, how she will compensate those losses under the current designed program when she in fact is going to take less federal govern ment money or at least no more than we had last year? What kind of a program is she going to de sign or has designed? What kind of assurance is she going to be able to give those farmers that they in fact will have their losses covered? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, the Member raises an issue that I have been raising for several months now. That is the fact that eight provinces wanted to change the funding formula for the safety net programs, a process that began under

3820 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 my predecessor's time as Minister of Agri culture. I would encourage him to talk to his colleague as to what the process was as to why we went to this formula. Certainly it is not one that Manitoba supported, but the federal govern ment decided to move and support the eight other provinces, and it is going to mean that other provinces are going to be able to offer richer programs than we are.

It is disappointing that we do not have that additional money, but we are going to be able to maintain the level of funding that we had pre viously, and the details of the program are being worked out. Mr. Jack Penner: On the second supplementary question, I want to ask the Minister whether she can tell me what level of comfort she thinks farmers will have by just blaming each other or blaming other levels of governments for not bringing forward the support.

Can the Minister tell us whether she is finally going to make a decision and make a commitment to the farmers of this province, as the previous government did in the Swan River Valley in I988, as we did in 1988 in the Inter lake, and as the Government did in 1997 in the Red River Valley? Will she now finally commit to supporting those that lost their crops and their livelihood in I999 in the southwest or in the western part of the province, and will she commit to that same level of funding now in the rest of the province? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, the Member raises a very serious situation in the southeast part of the province, and one that has to be monitored very closely, and one that we hope will result in farmers at least being able to get some crop off.

With respect to the money for the southeast part of the province, I wish the Member would have thought about that when he refused to pass an all- party member resolution in this House that we tried to bring forward so that we would have the support of their party when we were going to Ottawa to try to negotiate further assistance for the people of the southwest part of the province, but he refused. Mr.

Speaker, I raised the issue of the southwest part of the province again with the federal Minister of Agriculture when I was at the conference, and the federal Minister of Agri culture has said there is no money from the federal government for this particular issue. I hope that we can work through the southeast part of the province in a way that will not require us to have such difficult negotiations. * (13:45) First Nations Casinos Selection Process Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, we are back to the casino issue.

It is unfortunate that the public of Manitoba has lost all con fidence in the way in which this government has mishandled the expansion of casinos and gam bling in Manitoba. In fact, as each day goes by, we witness new bits of evidence indicating how badly this issue has been flawed from the beginning and, in fact, the process was not as in dependent as this government would lead Mani tobans to believe. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Member for Thompson, the Minister of Government Ser vices, and the Minister responsible for gambling in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind the Honourable Member that when addressing members of the House, they are by con stituencies, or ministers by their titles. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, yes, thank you very much. My question is to the Minister responsible for Gaming, the Minister of Government Ser vices. Did the new Minister of Gaming or his staff contact the Nadeau and Freedman selection committee or any members of that committee in any way to show support for the Nelson House First Nations casino proposal? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr.

Speaker, I think if the Member was to fol low up in terms of his

preamble, he would have asked another question about some of the con cerns they expressed only yesterday. In terms of Doctor Korn, by the way, I want to quote what he has said. He has said he was misquoted when he called for a moratorium, and he is quoted as

July 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3821 saying: I think it is acceptable to go forward. I think part of the issue is that there are definitely economic gains that come from casinos. We put in place a balanced process that recognizes those economic gains and the social concerns. We put in place an independent pro cess, and the Member knows that that inde pendent process was put in place.

I can assure members opposite that we are committed to continue in terms of that process, a process that is balanced and recognizes something that the previous government failed to do, that is, with the proper attention to some of the social con cerns we can have significant economic benefits for Aboriginal people. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Member did not have his earpiece in, because he failed to answer the question completely. I will ask the question again.

Just for clarification, can the Minister responsible for Gaming assure Manitobans that he or his staff had absolutely no contact with the selection committee during the selection process? Mr. Ashton : First of all, Mr. Speaker, I was not the Minister of Gaming during the selection process, and even though I could argue that it is out of order to ask somebody in terms of their activities as an MLA, I can say on the record I have not spoken to either of the two individuals on the selection process. I have not spoken to them either as an MLA or as a minister. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr.

Speaker, he answers the question partially. My question was whether he or any of his staff had any contact with the selection committee or the two gentlemen in volved with regard to the casino proposal. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I can only speak to my own direct knowledge, which is that I had no contact. I have had no contact with them, either as an MLA or as a minister subsequently, and I can only assume that is the case in terms of my staff as well. I made it very clear, as did all members on this side of the House, that we wanted to respect the process that was in place, an independent process.

The five sites that were selected reflect the independent analysis of the two individuals involved. They do not reflect in any way, shape or form any political influence. I think it is about time that members opposite dealt with that and respected the selection and worked with us to try and get First Nations people some economic op portunities in this province, something our balanced approach will do. * (13 :50) First Nations Casinos Community Opposition Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Gaming has been one of the most vocal opponents to gambling this pro vince has ever seen.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As was saying, the Minister of Gaming has been one of the most vocal opponents to gambling this province has ever seen. Now his First Minis ter (Mr. Doer) has put him as the Minister who will oversee the privatization of gambling in Manitoba. The Minister's own constituents have voiced concerns over the establishment of a First Nations casino in Thompson, concerns this minister is choosing to ignore.

Does the Minister of Gaming support the comments of Reverend Jake Enos, from the church council of the Thompson Christian Centre who said, and I quote: Here in Thompson, local welfare rates will increase, driving tax rates even higher than they are now if a new casino is established. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the admi nistration of The Gaming Control Act): I think part of the problem with members op posite, quite frankly, is, you know, they are trying to pretend that they were not the same party that was in place in the 19 90s. I remember when the Interim Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Mitchelson) was quoted as saying lotteries do really make good things happen. She indicated: I do not believe that the incidence of compulsive gambling will increase. This is when they were bringing in the Fort Garry Hotel. I think they have to remember that when some of us-and I am proud that we put on the record some of the

3822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11 , 2000 concerns, the fact that the previous government was involved in taking, for example, VL Ts to 26 times their original level in 19 92-93 in seven years. I say to members opposite, in the same way that we have always acknowledged the social impacts of gambling-you know, I acknowledge the social impacts of drinking, but I and mem bers of this caucus have always sought a balanced approach.

If you question the social impacts of drinking, it does not mean you sup port prohibition, it means you support a balanced approach, and that is what we are doing in terms of First Nations casinos. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister agree- given that he did not agree with Mr. Enns' last comments-w ith Reverend Enns when he says, and I quote: Do not sell your constituents out in this way simply because there are econo mic and political pressures to do something.

We cannot absolve ourselves of the responsibility of the results of our decisions simply because the results are found in the community and not directly on the property of the casino. Mr. Ashton: I want to say that I and every member of this government respect those, including the individual that you quoted, Reverend Enns, who do not agree with gam bling.

I want to say that, unlike the previous government which waited until 19 98 after the massive expansion of VL Ts to build in any pro cess that allowed for community input, what will take place in communities across this province and will take place in the community of Thompson is that the community of Thompson, the proposed host site, will have a say, Reverend Enns will have a say, my constituents and people in the host communities throughout Manitoba will have a say through their councils. I say that is far better than what happened under the previous government. *(1 3:55) Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Speaker, given that the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) believes that when 65 percent of Manitobans support an issue they represent a clear majority and their wishes should be followed, what does this Minister of Gaming have to say to the 65 percent of Mani tobans who oppose First Nations casino pro- jects? Is he saying that he now agrees that there should be binding referendums? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, as much as I would love to get into a discussion of labour legislation, I will leave that to the capable hands of the Minister of Labour, I think, who pointed out res pect in terms of the democratic process.

I want to say to the members opposite that one of the conditions of this process was the support of host communities, that is part of the RFP, that is part of the process that is in place, and we res pect the role of local councils. We respect the role in terms of expressing support on whether those proposals were a go-ahead . I will say we learned from the mistakes of the 1990s when the previous government waited until after the fact, in 19 98, before they even considered community input. We fought for it in the '90s.

We are making sure now that local councils representing the people of those areas will have a say. First Nations Casinos Communi ty Opposition Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister res ponsible for the casino issue. I want to ask some very pointed questions of the Minister regarding process here, because I think it is very, very important for the people of Manitoba and people in First Nations communities to fully understand the process by which this government is pro ceeding.

I would like the Minister to now clarify that his government's concept of consultation in the communities on this issue will not be with a binding referendum in those communities but rather simply a resolution of the councils. Would he please confirm that? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Gaming Control Act): I can assure the Member opposite, in this case the host communities will have a heck of a lot more say than they did about frozen food. And as much as I am tempted, I am not going to ask for the Member's retroactive resignation over that. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the Member opposite should be aware-and I note, as a former Minister responsible for Gaming in this pro vince, that we have recognized in this particular case, and I think it is important to note it was

July 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3823 based on the Bostrom report, a report which the Member opposite knows well, the role of local communities in the process and in fact, local councils, local communities will have the say in terms of whether they will host those casinos. That is part of the RFP, part of the process, and we are committed to that. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, members opposite represent frozen food; as one of my colleagues says it must be so good, they bought the com pany. They bought the company, and they are going to operate it.

It is very important for the people of Manitoba to under-stand the process, and the Minister avoids a simple response to a simple question. We asked him very clearly is his government committed to local community decision making by either a resolution of their councils or a binding referen-dum, and he refuses to really provide a simple answer. It is a very simple question. I ask him again: Is it the policy of this administration to accept as the decision making of a community a resolution of their council as opposed to letting their ratepayers or their members vote in a binding referendum? Which is it?

We would just like a yes or no to what they will accept as community decision- making. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to the Member who. as a minister in the last months of the previous government, expanded the number of VL Ts in First Nations communities by 65 percent without any input from communities, in fact, expanded many other areas. There were several hundred additional VL Ts brought in across the province without any community input. I want to say to the Member opposite that we have indicated as part of this process that we respect the role of local communities and their councils.

I notice in the case of Thompson, for example, the Mayor in the community has al ready indicated his support, proceeding with a plebiscite. There are discussions underway now. Certainly there was a plebiscite in Headingley. There is one underway, I know, currently in Brandon. There is a lot of discussion at the City Council, and we respect the right of local com munities. I wish the previous government had done that for most of the time that they were in office in the 19 90s. * (14: 00) Revenue-Sharing Formula Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, in sort of the hubbub, I did not catch the entire answer, but from what I gather the Minister was committing, where there are bind ing referendums, to recognize those. Mr. Speaker, my third supplementary to the Minister is this: He said yesterday in Question Period that 70 percent of the benefit will go to the First Nations proponent. I want to ask him: Will he guarantee that there will not be 20 percent, 30 percent, 40 percent of the proceeds going to the management companies, all of which are out of province, who will rake off a sizeable amount of money if that, in fact, hap pens?

What amount of money will he allow to go toward management fees? Hon. Steve Ashton (Min ister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): First of all, the Member knows the process and he knows, in fact, that what is in place is a process whereby we have community input, and we respect the role of community councils in deciding the route in which they go. In fact, two of the councils have gone the route of a plebi scite. That is under debate right now in terms of Brandon. and we respect those local com munities.

That is why we respect the input from the communities as decided by their elected re presentatives, the council. I want to say, in regard to the second point, the Member should understand that this is a partnership with the AMC, something of which we are very proud, a partnership that eluded the previous government that more often than not was focussing on short-term political issues vis a-vis First Nations. I suspect at one time they were trying to punish First Nations. I remember Mr. Newman with some of his comments in the House. We have worked out a partnership arrange ment.

We have a process whereby Lotteries will administer the casinos, the Gaming Commission will regulate those casinos, and we will work with our partners the Aboriginal people to ensure the maximum benefit goes to the people who need it, the First Nations people of this province.

3824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11 , 2000 Ombudsman's Report Recommendations Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the worlds of life and art come to gether. Faced with real people and real promises the NDP have made, they are now hiding. Yesterday, I met with the provincial Ombudsman, Mr. Barry Tuckett. He briefed me on a lengthy report to Mr. Zisca Singha and Mrs. Tahira Singha in which the Ombudsman con cluded quite clearly that they got caught between two departments that could not agree between themselves as to what was required and whether letters of approval were issued appropriately.

The Ombudsman recommended that the Government apologize to the Singhas and con sider compensation for the things that happened to them which were the Department's res ponsibility. I ask the Minister of Family Services whether he will apologize and provide com pensation. Hon. Tim Sale (Min ister of Fam ily Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I regret the fact that the Member for River Heights has chosen to use this approach. He wrote me this morning, July 11. I received the note at one o'clock.

I wrote to him on the note that I would meet privately with him and speak with him and brief him about this extremely complex issue. Instead he has chosen to grandstand. The issue is before the courts. He ought to know that. Mr. Gerrard: Ma question supplementaire: C'est une question qui est publique depuis longtemps. Le ministre en est responsable. Je de mande au ministre, est-ce qu'il fera ses excuses et donnera de Ia compensation a Monsieur et Madame Singha? [Translation] My supplementary question: It is an issue that has been public for a long time. The Minis ter is resp onsible.

I ask the Minister: Will he make an apology and provide compensation to Mr. and Mrs. Singha? Mr. Sale: Je regrette que ce n'est pas possible pour moi de repondre en fran�ais a Ia question du depute. Mon vocabulaire et rna grammaire ne sont pas assez bonnes. [Translation] I am sorry that it is not possible for me to reply in French to the question of the Member. My vocabulary and grammar are not good enough. [English] My answer stands. This is a complex matter. Counsel has been retained. An issue is before us, and I will brief the Member, if he chooses to be briefed. If he wants to grandstand, he can grand stand.

Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Minister of Family Services: I ask the Minister what changes he will make to the Department policy to ensure that individual citizens in the future are not painted into such a confusion cor ner by the situation that arises, as this one did? Mr. Sale: The Department is always open to learning, Mr. Speaker, and we continue to do so. This is an extremely rare circumstance. As I have said to the Member. if he wishes to learn more about it, I am prepared to brief him. Health Care Facilities Food Services Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St.

James): My question is directed to the Minister of Health. With the tabling today of the Auditor's report on the frozen food project of the former govern ment, what measures has the Minister taken and will he take to reduce reliance on the horrible frozen food system in Winnipeg health facilities, particularly Deer Lodge Centre? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Min ister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for the question. I was anticipating questions from members op posite because it is of such significance to the people of Winnipeg and particularly given what has happened in the frozen food field.

One of the first decisions we did was to buy back the mortgage, which is clearly identified in

July 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3825 the Auditor's report as one of the single signi ficant difficulties and problems regarding the fiasco with frozen food. The second thing we did was put together a working group made up of clinicians, dieticians, et cetera, and other experts, to study the whole frozen food situation, another thing that was highlighted in the Auditor's report as being lacking by the previous government. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, we put in place a process whereby I can assure members of this House that Deer Lodge Centre, as soon as the committee provides its report and once we can put the situation into operation, will not have the frozen food fiasco and the frozen food any more as a result of bad decisions by members on the opposite side ofthe House. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Official Op position House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order. Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask you to fill me in on a little something, but the Honourable Member from the back bench over there is referring to a report that has been tabled before this House, just today. which we have only just seen. I do not see a copy in front of her. I am wondering if the Opposition has been passing off these reports to their members prior to them being tabled in the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members, Beauchesne's Citation 168: When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling, the Speaker must always be heard in si lence.

I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. A point of order is a very serious matter. I recognize the Honourable Government House Leader on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point, Mr. Speaker. I know the Opposition is embarrassed by this report by the Provincial Auditor. We also know that they should be embarrassed by the fact they never asked a question about it. They purport, they hold themselves out as being in some way responsible. When the Opposition House Leader rose, he did not cite any citation in Beauchesne's, any rule.

Indeed, there is no point of order. There is no departure from any rules here. A question was simply asked by a member of our caucus. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I thank members for their advice. I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. * (14:10 ) Fort Garry Courthouse Status Report Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice last week asked if anyone wanted to buy a courthouse.

My question to the Minister of Government Services: Will he con firm that, despite the Justice Minister's earlier comments, the Government actually has no in tention of selling the courthouse building in Fort Garry? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I can confirm a number of things. I can confirm that it cost $2.2 million to construct the courthouse. I can confirm that, out of that amount, about $200,000 can be salvageable in terms of equip ment that can be moved.

I can indicate we have identified a number of options for the court house, something I think is increasingly seen as a white elephant. I want to say to the Member opposite that one of the options is indeed to sell it because any other use by government would involve either gutting or substantial renovations. So I say to members opposite it is a white elephant. In fact, we have already received a number of inquiries from people looking at buying it. That is where it is at, and I say to members opposite they made a huge, huge error, I think, in creating this white elephant for the province.

3826 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11 , 2000 Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Justice: Will the Minister please explain to Ralph Hoehne of Kingston Realty, when he went with a buyer to the Minister of Justice and to the Minister of Government Ser vices' office to buy the building, why Mr. Ralph Hoehne was told that the building was not for sale? Mr. Ralph Hoehne wants an explanation. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Member opposite realizes the court case that was in place only finished last week.

One of the first things we did, in terms of entering into office. was try to assess- and I did this as Minister of Government Services in co-operation with the Minister of Justice-what we would do with this facility once it was no longer being used. I want to say to the Member opposite, I have not been contacted by this individual, but another indivi dual contacted me directly, and I indicated that is one of the options we are looking at.

In fact, I am arranging for the Department of Government Services to look at that, and I would suggest to the Member opposite that if she has somebody that has a serious concern and interest in that property, she might wish to consult and contact me directly rather than get up in the House. This is the first time I have heard of this particular individual. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, will this minister then meet personally with Mr. Hoehne from Kingston Realty and explain why his bureaucrats told him- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Mrs. Smith: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Then will this minister meet with Mr. Hoehne from King ston Realty, meet with him personally, and explain to him why his bureaucrats told Mr. Hoehne quite categorically from the Minister's office that that building was not for sale when he came with a client's viable offer for that parti cular building? Mr. Ashton: I realize members opposite are a little bit sensitive about this $2.2-mil lion facility on $1. 5 million of land. I want to say to the Member opposite that I do not think she under stands the process. First of all, the individual that contacted me directly, I will have the Depart ment look at it.

But I want to say we could not exactly sell it while the court case was still going on. I do not know if she realizes the court case ended last week. We are looking at a number of options, none of which, Mr. Speaker, will re cover the amount of money that was put in by the previous government. It is a white elephant. We are trying to salvage what we can from the mistakes of the previous government. Minister of Labour Consultations Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, another day has gone by and the Minister of Labour's cruel assault on the business com munity of this province and an assault on the democratic rights of workers continues. During the Estimates process. the Minister said that most of her consultations as minister had been with business-orien tated groups. One wonders why this minister even met with the community for which she has such obvious contempt. Wel come to the Manitoba of yesterday's NDP, where business is a crime. To the Minister, Mr. Speaker: Who exactly did you consult prior to launching your vicious assault on the business community?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, since being made Minister of Labour on October 5 last year, I have met with literally hundreds of groups, as I mentioned to the Mem ber in Estimates, many of whom represented individual businesses, many of whom repre sented business associations, the Chambers of Commerce, a wide range of groups that I have met with both individually and as groups.

Prior to the tabling of Bill 44, the amend ments to The Labour Relations Act, though our proposals went to the Labour Management Review Committee, a committee made up of an equal number of representatives from the labour community and the business community, I must say that Bill 44, before us today, includes partial or complete consensus by both parties to the Labour Relations Committee of seven of the eleven proposals that were sent to that committee.

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3827 Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Volunteerism Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to applaud vol unteers in Manitoba for doing their part. Manitoba recently cel ebrated Volunteer Week, and we had a Jot to celebr ate. An estimated 40 percent of Manitobans per formed some sort of volu nteer service. That is 9 percent above the national average.

Col lectively, Manitobans donate close to 45 milli on hours annually to their volunteer endeavours; 44 percent of individuals between the ages of 15 and 24 vol unteer their time and talents. This is the highest of all provinces for this age group. Manitobans between the ages of 35 and 44 had the highest volunteer participation rate at 49 percent. That means that half of all Manitobans between the ages of35 and 44 vol unteered. Manitoba vol unteers represent 21 percent of Canada's volu nteers despite having only 16 per cent of the country's popula tion.

The economic value of our Manitoba volunteers is estimated at $525 mill ion. This is amazing, and we all should be proud of ourselves. We should all thank ourselves or someone we know who devotes their time and talents without asking for anything in return. We should not wait until Volunteer Week or special events such as the Pan Am Games to say thanks to those in our community who put others ahead of themselves. I would like to call on all Mani tobans to recognize the critical role that volun teers play in our daily lives. Thank a volu nteer today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Human Services Guide Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to inform the House of a new Internet information service that the Department of Family Services and Housing and the Depart ment of Education and Training have jointly developed under the Better Systems Initiative. * (14 :20) I would invite all members of the Chamber, as well the public, to visit the Human Services Guide which has been available to the public on the Internet in both official languages since June 27.

The public can access the guide from the Manitoba Government's home page by visiting the Human Services Guide li sting either under Featured Sites or the on-line services Living in Manitoba or Working in Manitoba. The Human Services Guide presents information on the programs and services provided by both of these departments in a num ber of categories, 13 service categories. These groupings are intended to assist the public to access information on a wide variety of programs.

The guide includes basic program in formation, eligibil ity requirements, contacts and links to related sites and frequently asked questions. The intention is to expand the information contained in the guide over time to include human services delivered by other departments and non-government agencies as well. This version of the guide has been tested with both internal and external users. A group of 11 members of the public tested the guide for content, navigation and ease of use.

Responses were very positive, and some suggestions for improvements which have been impl emented for the Internet version are now available. It is a great example of how we can make government services more accessible. Mr. Speaker, for one example, Manitoba students can now access our enhanced and new student loan and bursary programs by applying for student loans and bursaries on-line. I hope that we all have a chance to visit the site. It will probably also help us all in our work as MLAs in our constituency offices. Thank you. Winni peg Folk Festival Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): Mr.

Speaker, this past weekend Manitobans and visitors to our province had the opportunity to experience the 27th annual Winnipeg Folk Fes tival. This year the four-day festival attracted the second largest audience in its history, a total of 33 750 fans. Not even the heavy downpour on Thursday night that left the grounds in Birds Hill Park completely saturated was enough to keep the crowds away.

3828 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 Even with nasty mosquitoes and ankle-deep mud bogs, the Winnipeg Folk Festival is still one of the finest large-scale music festivals on this continent. The mud and mosquitoes that distin guished this year's festival united the vol unteers and audience alike in their appreciation of the performances and festival ambience. I would like to congratulate the producer of this year's Folk Festival, Pierre Guerin, and the executive director, Trudy Schroeder, for an amazing festival. I understand that this perhaps was Mr.

Guerin's final year looking after the Folk Festival as its producer, and certainly a lot of accola des need to go to him for the incredible success he has created for all of us here in Manitoba. A big chunk of the credit for this year's Folk Festival belongs to the 1500 volu nteers who made the festival a huge success. Again, it was the vol unteers, the Manitoba volu nteers who were the heart and soul of this event. On behalf of all of us in Manitoba, a big thank you to this very, very dedicated group of people. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dakota Collegiate-Manitoba Marathon Volunteers Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, Dakota Coll egiate loca ted in St. Vital has developed a 16-year tradition of vol unteering for the Mani toba Marathon. About I40 students, several teachers and alumni, organized by teacher Dean Favoni, spent the day of June 17 at the Manitoba Marathon. They worked as huggers at the finish line, servers at the pasta fest, timers, station hands and tag and microchip coll ectors, the new microchip device being one that gave runners an accurate reading of their finish time. This dedicated group from Dakota Collegia te was responsible for supporting participants in the last 40 to 50 metres of the run.

They offered much-needed hugs, comfort, assis tance, and shared in the cel ebration as each participant accomplished the goal of finishing the marathon. The enthusiasm, commitment, and energy displayed by these individuals was greatly appreciated. Recognition for their efforts was received in congratulatory comments and commendations from race officials and competitors. Thank you to Dean Favoni and this incredible group of vol unteers. Congratulations to the Dakota Coll egiate staff members and students who participated in the Marathon 2000.

This being Cole Hunt, Darryl Conrad and Ray Houssin in the half marathon, and Jason Conrad in the full marathon. May Dakota Colle giate's volu nteer commit ment at the Manitoba Marathon continue year after year. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Frank and Louella Fehr Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker. it is a pl easure to rise in the House today to pay tribute to residents of my constituency who have been recognized for outstanding achievement in their field. Mr.

Speaker, Frank and Louella Fehr, who farm near the community of Grunthal. were. on Friday ni ght, presented with Manitoba's Out standing Young Farmer Couple Award. This award recognizes farmers between the ages of 18 and 39 who demonstrate successful farm management, proper land usage, and an abil ity to grow their operation. The Fehrs currently operate a hog farm which employs 14 full-time individuals and which maintains 3400 sows, with two weanling units and one finishing bam.

I am told that Frank Fehr built his first bam at the age of 21 and has pursued and grown his dream as an independent farm operator ever since. Mr. Speaker, the Fehrs have shown the success that young farmers can have in our province, if given the opportunity to succeed, and have demonstrated the important impact that farming and the hog industry have in our province and in my constituency. As the representative for the Steinbach constituency, I can tell all the members that the Fehrs exemplify the type of progressive and res ponsible farms which make their home and living in my constituency. Mr.

Speaker, the Fehrs will now move on to national competition to compete against young farmers in the Regina competition in November of this year. I know that they will represent our province well and make all Mani tobans proud.

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3829 Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all the members of this Chamber, I would lik e to congratulate Frank and Louella Fehr, their young children, Colten and Dexten, and wish them all well as they compete in Regina. Committee Changes Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Well ington (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: St. Boniface (Mr. Sel inger) for The Pas (Mr. Lathl in); Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoft); St. James (Ms.

Kor zeniowski) for Transcona (Mr. Reid); The Ma ples (Mr. Aglu gub) for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers). I move, seconded by the Member for Welli ngton (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Elmwood (Mr. Malo way) for Brandon West (Mr. Smith); St. Boni face (Mr. Selinger) for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Motions agreed to. * (14:30) Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move. seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) and Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Friday, July I4 , at I 0 a.m., to consider the annual reports of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the years ended March 3I, I9 98, and I9 99, and also to consider the annual reports of the Crown Corporations Council for the years ended December 31, 1994, I9 95, I9 96, I9 97, 1998 and 1999.

I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Mr. Speaker do now lea ve the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Friday, July 14, 2000, at 10 a.m., to consider the annual reports of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the years ended March 31, 1998 and 1999, and to also consider the annual reports of the Crown Corporations Council for the years ended December 31, 1994, 1995, I9 96, 1997, 1998 and I9 99. [Agreed} It has been moved by the Honourable Government House Leader, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Seli nger), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. [Agreed} * (14: 50) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply ple ase come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. When the Committee last sat, it had been considering item 12.2. Regional Operations (

a) Headquarters Opera tions (

I) Salaries and Em ployee Benefits $1, 415,700 on page 37 of the Estimates book. 2.(a)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $I, 4I5 ,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures

3830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11, 2000 $1 ,245, 400-pass;

(3) Problem Wildl ife Control $245,600. Shall the line pass? Mr. Harry Eons (Lakeside): I would like the Minister to offer us some insight as to how and by what means the Department is controlling some of the problems that we have in the province with wildlif e. We are talking about, first of all, $245,000 in this appropriation. I would like to have some idea of what that money is being spent for.

Is some of that money being spent to compensate, or just generally speaking despite the fact that we are passing other legisla tion to prohibit it, the problem of wild boars is a real one for some areas in this province. I can speak from some experience. I came home to my farm last summer to be encountered by six wild boars which decided to root around in my yard for a li ttle while.

If you were in attendance at all to the most recent conventions of our rural municipalities, those of us who attended those know that the subject matter of control of the wild board took up a fair bit of time of the local councillors' decision making at that council. I am also aware that we have a certain population, a growing number of popu lation to the effect that they are doing more and more damage.

I know that from my experience in the sister Department of Agriculture working through crop insurance, more and more dolla rs are being paid out in compensation for crop loss, for instance, to various wildl ife populations. I am just ragging this a little bit because I am a generous and kind critic. This gives the Minister a li ttle bit of time to consult with his senior staf f to give us an idea about how this $245,000 is used. It is under the heading Pro blem Wildl ife Control. I would be interested in having some idea of how that is proceeding. Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Min ister of Conser vation): As the Member would probably know, eight or nine months ago he was in government, he would still be quite familiar with some of the programs that were in place at the time that he was in government. For example, I think he would probably remember that some of that $245,000, a good chunk of it, I am given to understand that about 80 percent of it, is earmarked for controlling the beaver problem.

I know even when I was in opposition I used to have people approach me with all kinds of those wildlif e problems, but I remember very cle arly that the problem of beavers damming up creeks and ditches, I think that was the item that was brought to my attention the most times when I was in opposition. So about 80 percent of it is earmarked for beaver control. We renewed the program with the municipalities for another bit of time, but in the meantime, I think even municipalities are finding that the program that we have with them has problems.

So I have asked our people is there something better that we can do to try to get ahead of the beaver pro blem, short of just going out there and sl aughtering the animals. I would like to see if I could come up with a good program that will not offend anybody, but at the same time address the problems that municipalities are facing. I know quite frequently I travel to the northern part of the province. Even there, where there are no adjacent municipalities, along the highways I see a lot of work that the beaver has done.

Along No. 6 Highway, for example, I will go by there on a Sunday evening coming to Winnipeg and everything is clea red up. Thurs day night or Friday morning, I travel back and everything is back in place. So it is a big pro blem, and we are trying to come up with a better system in terms of the beaver problem. The Member will also remember the pro blem of wolves and coyotes, particularly areas where there is agricultural activity being carried out. Wolves have a habit of coming onto farming areas and preying on the animals that are there. So that is about all I can tell him for now. Mr. Enos: Mr.

Chairman, I should inform the Minister and his department that as of September 21 last when I was abruptly deprived of some $25,000 in pay, my wife has gone into sheep and goat farming at our little hacienda out there in the south Interlake. While I applaud her innova tion and her entrepreneurship, I am also very much aware that we have many of those coyotes that the Minister speaks of. Not too many wild wolves in the southern part of the Interlake, but certainly a heavy population of coyotes who have an affinity to sheep, I am advised.

I live in dread that I will come back from the Legisla ture sometime and the only remnants that I will see

July 11, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 383 1 of my wif e's sheep flock is just a few fluffs of wool on the fencing somewhere, where they have all of a sudden disappeared. I will be phoning your department and asking for some consideration and some control and protection, in fact, maybe even for some compensation. I think there is a compensation program in place for domestic animals lost as a result of this kind of damage. Can the Minister confirm that just so that I can comfort my spouse when I see her later on in the day? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, I would also like to applaud Mrs.

Enns for going in the direction that she has. According to what the Member is telling us, I also admire her entrepreneurial spirit. Every time you do something in conser vation, it seems to me-and I think the Member for Lakeside will be appreciative of this-you please one part of your constituency and then, on the other hand, there is that other part of the constituency that is displeased by your actions and policy. So you sit there, you listen to the one group and then the next day you listen to the other group, the pros and cons of their view of what you are doing.

Wolves and coyotes, for example. there has been quite a bit of controversy over poisoning these kinds of animals, especially around Riding Mountain area. So, for that reason, we are now reviewing the situation to see if we can come up with a better way to control those animals, especially in those li vestock areas I referred to. We are looking at ways to develop a program that would not involve poisoning, bait, because people are offended by this. Some part of the community is offended by that and another part of the community supports it wholeheartedly. Mr. Enos: I thank the Minister for those comments.

Just on a li ttle different subject, I think both the Minister and I acknowledge that if we-and there is controversy involved here as wel l-had more stable and better prices for the wild fur. We have a long history and tradition, not just in the Aboriginal community, but in the community at large, particularly northern Manitoba, of successful ly trapping these furs. A good part of the Department's in volvement is in supervising the regulations surrounding the trapping of furs.

If a beaver pelt was worth what it should be worth, the Depart ment would not have to be involved in these programs, or the municipalities involved in these programs, or the unacceptable, and I agree with the Minister about the sl aughter of these animals at times of the year. A healthy, wild fur market would be of considerable help here.

I am aware that the Department has over the years supported different agencies-their names escape me, the Canadian Fur Institute, the Manitoba Trappers Association-in their efforts to help educate, par ticularly the Europeans, it is kind of ironic; they got us into this fur trapping business to begin with-about the fur trade industry and about its importance to a lot of our citizens, and, quite frankly, also the role that it can pla y in keeping a control on the overall population numbers so that they do not become problem situations.

This may not be the right spot and the direction, but I would hope that the Department would continue to be supportive of those kinds of organizations. It was not a great deal, but I think we played a role in supporting organiza tions such as I mentioned, and specifically the Manitoba Trappers Association in their pro grams. Mr. Lathlin : Yes, I do agree with the Member's observations and statements about this issue. As a matter of fact, when I first became minister, the first time I was faced with this issue was in a meeting with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities, for one group.

I met with the Manitoba Trappers Association at least three times since I have been minister. I attended the fur table in Thompson. Twice I met with them to discuss some of the resolutions that they had passed at their annual meeting. Yes, the beaver problem was one of the items that they had included in their resolution development.

As a matter of fact, I had asked our staff to look into the possibil ity of maybe making some kind of an arrangement with the Manitoba Trappers Association because I think if you are, I am not sure, I am just assuming here, but if you are a farmer or an AMM official, you have a tendency to look at the beaver situation differently, say, than if you were a trapper. Therefore, I was looking to the Manitoba

3832 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 Trappers Association to maybe get involved in this brainstorming, trying to come up with a program that would allevia te this type of a pro blem. So far we have not come to any final agreements, but I know that I think we have put the bug in their ear and they are talking about it. I have also put the bug into AMM, at least the official part, into their ear to talk about it. Yes, I think that is the only way to go; it is to work with those kinds of organizations. They work with the issue every day. They know how to deal with it. They are experts at it.

I think we support the Manitoba Trappers Association in the amount of a li ttle over $60,000 a year in recognition of the work that they do in this province. *( 15: 00) We also support the Fur Institute. I think $29,000 is what they get in provincial support. So from time to time we have a meeting. Whenever I get an opportunity to meet with those groups, I never fail to seek their expert advice so that whatever they tell us might be incorporated into our programming. Mr.

Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I, too, have a few questions in this particular area before we move forward into the different regions of Manitoba. If I could indulge the Minister for a moment on some of these. Some of it has to do with the regional operations, I guess, of the Department. First of all, just as an overview to ask the Minister if he sees any particular change in direction from the Depart ment. Mr. Lathlin: I do not know if the Member was here yesterday when I belie ve I was asked that question about the regional operations in terms of the integration work that we are doing.

I belie ve I gave the response something to the effect that we are proceeding with integration work. We are amalgamating the departments. So far, at the regional level, we have not made any major changes. As a matter of fact, I think things are in a sort of status quo situation at the regional level, because we recognize the fact that if we make too big of a change right off the bat at the regional level where all this front line work is happening, that it would probably not be a good idea. It would not be the right thing to do because it would really hamper our operations where they count the most. Also, Mr.

Chairman, I could further advise the Member that we are currently looking to move regional boundaries to be consistent from one department to the next. Therefore our boundaries might change a li ttle bit, but we are still looking at it today. But, so far. in terms of human resource positioning, we have not made any major changes. Mr. Maguire: So, Mr. Minister. you just alluded that there might be some boundary changes to the regions as they are presently set up in Mani toba. but that has not been determined yet. Mr. Lathlin: Yes. that is right.

You know, any time that you are into reorganization, especially in this case, we are talking environment and natural resources. So it makes sense for us to try to align in the geographical setting the respon sibil ities and functions that are going to be required in each area. So far we have not made any boundary changes. We are busy at the present time making sure that our planning processes are the right ones and trying to come up with a good plan, some cle ar direction for our staff, particularly at the regional level, to follow. Mr.

Maguire: The follow-up to that is: so you are still establis hing the criteria that would make changes in those jurisdictions. I just wondered if you could el aborate on what those criteria might be. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, yes, currently we are looking at the boundaries of all the departments, government departments. We do that because I think it is important for us to have common boundaries.

For example, we have interdepartmental work going on right now to align, for example, Cult ure, Intergovernmental Affairs and Conservation, and recommendations will be coming to my office probably by fall time, September maybe, at which time we will review, and we will go from there. Mr. Maguire: So just for cla rity, you are looking at perhaps combining some of the

July II , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3833 jurisdictions of those areas that you just mentioned, Northern Affairs, Conservation and Agriculture. That is in regard to policy of depart ments. Is it in regard to planning and office space, or is it a geographical boundary that we are talking about as well? Mr. Lathlin: I think what we are doing here is looking primarily at geographical locations of the offices. We are not necessarily combining functions at the present time.

We are looking to ensure that once we realign boundaries geo graphically, for example, you go to one building in The Pas and you get all your services, information, whatever. You may go and pay your lease fee if you have a cottage at the la ke, or park fees, or whatever. That is where you go and do everything in that one-stop office building. So that is what we are trying to achieve from that initiative. * (15: 10) Mr. Maguire: Are you saying that there will be no geographical changes in boundaries of the offices at this time? Mr. Lathlin: Probably the best way that I can explain it, Mr.

Chairman, and that is when the Government initiated the regional health authority boundaries, when they first started to implement that policy they did not real ize that particularly up North there were certain working patterns or travel patterns or relationship pat terns. For example, The Pas and Pukatawagan, they relate to each other. The people from Pukatawagan come to The Pas to shop and marry people from Pukatawagan and The Pas and so forth. and the same thing with Easterville.

Easterville and Grand Rapids, Moose Lake, there are a lot of people who come to The Pas to do commerce or buy groceries or pla y bingo or whatever. When the regional health authority boundaries were established, for example, Pukatawagan was deemed to belong to the Burntwood, which is in Thompson, and the peo ple in Pukatawagan said: Why do we now have to start going to Thompson when all these years we have been going to The Pas for everything, medical, entertainment, groceries and stuff like that? So we made representations to government at the time. Fortunately, they listened and they were obliging.

They changed the boundaries. Now Pukatawagan belongs to the Nor man Regional Health Authority. I think that is probably the best example that I can use. So, as we go into boundary changes in this effort, the same principles will be looked at. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I just raised this, Mr. Minister, because of your comments yes terday in your opening remarks. I believe you mentioned that there might be some issues that you would look at as far as decentralization, and I wondered if you could expand on just what your comments referred to in that regard. Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairman, let me say firstly that we are not looking to removing offices from the different communities that they are in. If that is a concern of the Member, well, we are not looking to do that. What we are looking at is again, I will give him another example. If you are buying, say, a cottage in Cl earwater Lake and you go to the local office there to do business, well, much of the function, the res ponsibilities, are here in Winnipeg.

So, although the local worker there will gladly take whatever information you have in order to lease a lot from the provincial government, the first thing they will tell you is it takes a long time. That is the first thing they will warn you, and you will say, well, why does it take a long time? Well, because it has to go to Winnipeg. It goes to that department and here and there and by the time it comes back, you know, you are looking at a long time. It is not very efficient.

So some of the things we are looking to do is, you know, approvals, for example, per mitting, those are the kinds of services we are looking to decentralize, strengthening the frontline workers so that they can actually do the work there without having to frustrate the cus tomer, saying, look, you know, take whatever information you can give me, but I am going to have to forward it to Winnipeg and you are just going to have to wait. I think that is the kind of realignment that we are looking at. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Chairman, I concur it is rather ironic that the Minister would mention Clea rwater Lake and the cabins there, because I have a great uncle who was one of the first

3834 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11, 2000 founders of a cabin in that area. Mr. Moore originally from this area of Manitoba, but he trapped and hunted in that area for decades up in that area, as he founded that whole region. He has been gone from us for about 20 years now, but I did have an opportunity to meet him a couple times in my youth. He could tell you some pretty tremendous stories about the area that you just outlined. I believe his cabin is still there. If you want to go and have a look at it someday, Oscar, I welcome you to have the opportunity to do that.

Decentralized, as you said, and part of the discussion that we had in committee this morning was just based on that. I guess that is why many of us felt that I would just throw this in, that your comments about being able to get permits on a basis that is responsive I think is very important. I commend you for that eff ort if that in fact is what takes place in the rural areas, in the regional offices, I should say. not just rural, because that is more of a hands-on issue with those types of developments.

That is why we raised some of those concerns in committee this morning on Bill 15 with the Province taking back the control of water rights. That is an issue with farmers out in the country and rural people in an area that they need to be able to get their hands on a permit in a timely fashion, not just under an emergency basis, but to be able to carry on and plan. Many of them will pla n long enough ahead that they will give the Department, I think, long enough lea d time because they try to fit it in to the work

schedule of their own farming operation. But sometimes, either by oversight or by an immediate system that comes up or you may purchase some new land on the 15th of October that you may want to get a permit before freeze up to move on, they need to have the assurance that they are going to be able to have a res ponsive system that will meet their needs. As you combine these departments, I think those are some ofthe difficulties that you may go through in trying to have a responsive system.

I would encourage you to move forward in that area if that is what decentralization is meaning, as you have outlined in your previous answer. I noticed under, as we move on, Mr. Chairman, the Regional Opera tions, you have mentioned a number of things, from del ivering the department programs. ensuring the resource related regulatory controls done in a responsive manner, implementing of forest fire prevention. We will get into a number of these as we get through Estimates. They can be talked about fur ther down the road.

But there are some issues, I guess, around you have one here in regard to the whole decen tralization. I do not know if this is where it comes in or not, but I will ask the question anyway. You have one of the regional operations here that is to maintain an effective community relations role for the Department with particular emphasis on Aboriginal and organized sports men's and park user groups. So I see that as kind of three groups there. I wonder if you could just refer to each of those and give me some indication of why you have pinpointed each of those three groups? Mr. Latblin: Mr.

Chairman, I am not sure if I understood the question, but let me say this. If I understand the question, I do not think we are trying to single out a select group of organi zations. I think what we have li sted there is some of the things that our people are doing out in the region. For example, that list that you see there, but we do carry out liaison activities with every body, trappers, youth, whoever comes to our offices. That is who we liaise. We do not restrict our liaison work with just those groups that are listed. There are other groups that we lia ise with. * (15: 20) Mr.

Maguire: There are so many groups. I looked at it, the bullet before that is Parks and Natural Areas branch. Looking at those, I wondered if you had any particular significance as to the organized sportsmen's groups, park user groups, whether it was a situation where you had some particular role that you had Aboriginal community to play in that area, some particular role for organized sportsmen, if there were dif ferent rules for park user groups that you were planning, maybe not in place today, but planning

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3835 down the road. Can you just give us any ela boration on that? Mr. Latblin: Mr. Chairman, I am glad that is the direction the question is going, because I think it gives me a great opportunity to expand on some of the ideas, directions, thinking that I have been doing since I have become Minister of Conservation. One of the things that became very clea r to me when I became Conservation Minister was, and I did this, I phoned certain offices just to get a feel of how the public is treated.

Even when you phone an office somewhere, it could be in Gimli, it could be in The Pas, it could be wherever it is, Brandon, I want to see when the person, the government worker answers the phone, how they treat me. As a minister, I started doing that because I wanted to get a good feeling of how our department works with the public, our clie nts. the people who pay the taxes to put us here. So, for the most part, it is okay, but I am detecting in some pla ces that we could improve in our relations with the publ ic.

For example, if you phone somebody and you get the feeling that they do not want you to talk to this person, they say he is in a meeting, he is not available. You can give the answer a no. but give it in a way that the public will accept it. Not just a flat no. for example. no and that is all there is to it; there is no other way; you hang up the phone. That is not the kind of a relationship that I want our people to have with the publ ic. Right from Day One, I have told our people that we want to work with the community so that we get along.

I do not want the community to think of us as those government guys or those government people that deny you the licence or that enforce the regulation. The only time you see them is when they want to enforce some thing or when they want to come and jab you in the chest and say you are charged for doing this. That is not the kind of way that I want our department to work, and I have had a meeting with our senior people, all the way down to the regional directors. I want our relationship to improve with the general public.

When the public phones or when we make contact with the public, I want them to feel that we are listening, that we hear what they are saying. I want them to think that we are not actually wanting to give them the runaround. I want them to think that we are actually making every effort to address whatever it is that they came to see us for in the first place. I was in Cal gary attending a City of Cal gary police graduation. A bunch of Calgary police recruits were graduating and the Chief of Police gave me a lapel pin.

What it said on that lapel pin was "Working with the Community." So, I had on occasion later on to run into a fello w who had been an RCMP officer for about four years. He proudly gave me an RCMP lapel pin, and that lapel pin said exactly the same as what that Calgary city police pin said.

It said "Working with the Community." I even suggested to our deputy that maybe those are the kind of lapel pins we should get-Conservation, working with the community-just lik e what the RCMP and the City of Cal gary police are doing, because that is the kind of relationship that I want. [interjection] He said it was a dam good idea and he said why did I not do that before. So, anyway, that gives you an idea of why we have the groups there.

I am not in any way suggesting that because Aboriginal people are li sted there that they are the one group we are to let in, although it is high time, if you ask me, that they should be part of the group that government departments liase with. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I would just say that the emphasis is on all three that were men tioned there as user groups, sportsmen and Aboriginals, Mr. Minister. Cl early, you have placed your thoughts before me here, and I appreciate that in moving on in that whole area.

The issues that are listed in the other bul lets there: constructs, operates, water drainage, that sort of thing, Crown land all ocations, we will talk about as we come to them, I think, further down the Estimates in those processes. There was one question in regard to the whole issue of the problem wildlif e before we move on past that line, Mr. Chairman. You have looked at objectives under headquarters opera tions to provide NROs with services within the Winnipeg department area of responsibility and to minimize accidental shootings related to

3836 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 hunting. Can you el aborate on just exactly what you mean by that? * (15: 30) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, that statement there reflects the hunter safety program that is carried out by the Department and its house in Win nipeg, but it is real ly del ivered all over the province. The del ivery vehicle is through a contract with the Manitoba Wildl ife Federation, the Hunter Safety program, education awareness. Mr. Maguire: So if I read the Minister correctly then, it would be along these li nes of del ivering the Hunter Education.

The Member for Lakeside has asked you about the Hunter-Killed Livestock Compensation Programs. Well, actually, no, he did not. The Member for Lakeside was talking about wildlif e capturing and killing li vestock. I have had some local constituents who have had concerns with the issue of people hunting li vestock, if you will, not accidental shooting of it but perhaps some cases where li vestock have been shot, loa ded in trailers in the evening. Let us face it, Mr. Minister, a cow-calf pair out there today is worth about $2,000.

These are unpre cedented prices and there is some night activity going on in the province of Manitoba, well, all across the Prairies. It might be a situation that will certainly be raised in Agriculture, but when you have got a Hunter-Killed Livestock Com pensation Program in place, I would assume that this is not to be confused with the theft of li vestock in those areas. Mr. Lathlin: I understand that we have a program in the Department where if li vestock are shot and destroyed accidentally during hunting that there is some sort of compensation provided to the farmer.

But in cases where there is il legal activity going on where, as I say, peo ple coming during the night, I think people refer to that as rustling in the industry. In those situations then, we would rely on the RCMP to investigate and see whether criminal charges will be laid and people be made to face the consequences. Mr. Maguire: So I would assume that the Hunter-Killed Liv estock Compensation Program would apply to livestock like bison and elk as well. I think we are the same as Saskatchewan in that regard. I know some people in Saskatche wan a few years ago who had elk in their pasture.

It was during hunting season as well. They came out one morning and two of them were dead. They had been shot from the fence. It brought a whole new meaning to the term penned hunting, believe me. They were in a pen. They were beside the barn in a particular yard site. Of course, the road went by this particular area as well. Whether these people jumped out and did not see the fence or whatever, they did eventually come back and own up to the crime. Can the Minister confirm that this kind of a program. the Hunter-Killed Livestock Com pensation Program, would follow along.

It would not be just cattle and horses and sheep, it would be elk and bison in that area as well. Mr. Lathlin: I understand that elk and bison would fall under that same category as if they were cattle. But also. I do not know what area the Member is referring to, but I am given to understand that so far there have only been six claims made under that program in about a year. We experience about six claims a year for cattle. I am also given the understanding that we have not had a bison claim or an elk claim under that program. Maybe the incident did happen in Manitoba and nobody reported it or nobody came to us.

Maybe it happened in another province. Mr. Maguire: Just for cla rity in my question, it was a situation in Saskatchewan that I was referring to. Mr. Lathlin: I am sorry. Mr. Maguire: It did happen in Saskatchewan. And so, no. to my knowledge it has not, but I appreciate the answer. The other issue is to ensure quality of guide services in Manitoba. This arises not so much from wildlif e in my area but from waterfowl. We have a number of guides, if you will, that provide a guide service around Whitewater Lake in southwest Manitoba in regard to geese and ducks and that sort of thing in the fall period of time.

It leads to a number of issues around wildlif e compensation on swath crop and that sort of thing. Can you just give me some idea of

July 11, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3837 the quali fications or what rules there are to ensure the quality of the guiding services in Manitoba at this time? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, yes, there is a standard in place. There are qualifications that you have to meet in order for one to become employed as a guide in Manitoba.

I understand they have to, for example, pass or go through a first-aid training program, they have to pass a written exam, and they do get a lic ence once those requirements have been met. r think probably the best quality control program that is in place right now is lodge owners are very particular with whom they hire because their business depends on the type of services they provide to their customers, who pay big sums of money to come to their lodges. So they are not about to jeopardize their bottom line by hiring less than qualified people. Mr. Maguire: Good, Mr. Chairman.

You know the other issue is that there are Expected Results of some of these areas. So I think that we can go ahead with some of the issues here on Head quarters Operations and move further down the line. Mr. Chairperson: We will look at 12.2.(a)

(3) Problem Wildl ife Control $245,60 0-pass. 2.(

b) Northwest Region (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,939.5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $678,5 00-pass. 2.(

c) Northeast Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2, 151 ,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $948, 900-pass. 2.(

d) Central Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,363,5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditul'� $1, 715,200-pass. 2.(

e) Eastern Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,209,3 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1, 006,600-pass. 2.(

f) Western Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,2 17 ,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 ,587 ,400-pass. 2.(

g) Fire Program

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,3 88,300. Shall the line pass? * (15 :40) Mr. Maguire: Oh, we have some questions in this area. I notice that there are some details in regard to the Fire Program that I just wanted to raise. Looking at the $4,300,000, virtually the same amount of money in salaries and benefits in this area, can the Minister give us some indi cation of the actual dolla rs that were spent in this area? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize to the Member. I was momentarily distracted. I did not hear the question. Mr.

Maguire: I was. jus:t asking iJf the Minister could give us some iooieatrorr of how many dol la rs were actually spent i n the whole area of fire programs last year. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, last year's expen ditures in fire were a total of some $42 mill ion. I understand about $16.3 million, $1 6.4 mill ion is spent up front and then another $28 milli on was spent for fire suppression as an extra item to the budget. Mr. Maguire: That was for fire suppression? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, I understand the $1 6.3 mill ion that r referred to is really the base budget.

The $28 mill ion is the amount of money that is spent on extra fire suppression, and that is not included in this budget. It is in Government Services as an emergency fund expenditure item. I would also like to advise the Member, for his information, when you look at last year's fire expenditures compared to this year with all the rain that we have been having, so far we have spent $5.2 milli on, which is a very big difference from last year, but that is not to say that it will remain that way for the rest of the season.

I think there are still people out there who are ex perienced in the northern forests, and I could probably vouch for that observation myself. People still tell us, in spite of all the rain that we have been having, it is still pretty dry up north. When you fly around in the aircraft you can tell

3838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 11 , 2000 that the lake water levels -you can see where the shoreline was and where it is now-are still pretty dry, so we are not about to say we have beat the fires this year. Who knows what may transpire in the coming six weeks, eight weeks? Mr. Enos: Mr. Minister, on the issue of fire protection in Manitoba, it has always been some difficult calls that the Department has had to make. It is an uncontrollable expense.

I would like to suggest that in a year like this, when weather is in your favour and you are saving considerable money, particularly with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) a little bit preoccupied at the end of the table, you should be able to manage to garner those dolla rs for regional services or water resources, even for wildlif e purposes, things like that for the rest of the Department. What I am getting at, if I recall, I am just wondering whether there has been a change.

The policy has been to, of course, protect the life and property in the settled areas, and then it moves forward to protecting valuable timber stands and then it has been a policy to knowing that there is a finite amount of dolla rs available that you cannot protect the entire province, that there have been areas of the province that have not received fire protection even though fires are burning in those areas. Mr. Minister, I am aware and I certainly was aware of that during the time it was my privilege to be involved with the Department that that has always been a difficult question.

It has been a difficult question with respect to the Aboriginal community, for instance.

It has been a question of placing the appropriate value on other re sources other than timber, wildlif e, wildlif e habitat and so forth, that should figure into the consideration for receiving fire protection, but I can just kind of remember looking at the map of Manitoba in the Fire Centre, you know, Director Buck, I believe it is, that would, from time to time, go through the business with you, and you could see those areas of the province that normally do not get fire protection, even though there is a fire, unless residences are involved, unless property or life are involved. *( 15: 50) I am just asking the Minister whether this is something that he has had an opportunity to think about and whether or not there has been some rethinking within the forestry, within the fire protection service as to the priority settings of where and when firefighters, bombers and the rest of it, the whole apparatus of the Depart ment's fire protection services will be called out to put out fires even in places that have been deemed to have no commercial value in terms of timber. no loss of life or property being threatened and that, up until a short while ago, would normally not receive fire protection.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli. Acting Chairperson. in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: Madam Chairperson, I would like to advise the member that, no, the policy has not changed, at least since the time I have been there. The priorities have not changed either. We still have the same priorities that were there probably when the Member was in government. However, yes. he is absolutely right, and I am probably one of those people. When I was a chief of my reserve, I used to feel that you would go and protect those timber areas that we knew Repap and Tolko and Pine Falls were interested in.

That is what we used to accuse governments of neglecting, especially the Aboriginal, isolated communities, you know, well, let them bum, I mean, there is nothing useful out there anyway. But we took a different view. I think we have the responsibility. It is our responsibility to make sure that, yes, we protect the interests of all Manitobans. We are currently reviewing, as a matter of fact, as to how we can change the policy in terms of including everybody in the priority list so that everybody feels that they come under this umbrella of fire protection.

For example, people in the Hayes River forest unit have from time to time come to government saying, look, protect our area too, because it is important to us. Also as we move into the land-use study program that we have initiated for the east side of Lake Winnipeg, I think we will have to look at maybe changing the policy a bit to include the east side of Lake Winnipeg, you know, lik e all the way north to the Isla nd Lake area and beyond. So I want to thank the Member for raising that issue, because it certainly reminds us

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3839 that that is one more piece of work that we have to do in Conservation. Mr. Enos: Madam Chairperson, I simply want to indicate to the Minister that I did listen to his complaints or concerns when he expressed them as a member of the Opposition on this matter. I know that it is a serious matter for the Depart ment to consider. It would, of course, con siderably oblig ate or make possible the need for considerably more and more resources to provide that what I would call greater protection. I think I certainly would want to be supportive to the Minister and to the Govern ment for looking at it that way. I think the broader

interpretation of land use and land protection, you know, will obviously push government in that direction. I think it is the right direction, but it has been my experience that the Department that you head, Mr. Minister. while we are quick to accept and take on additional responsibilities, we seldom have the political clout to get the necessary financial resources to come along with it. If you were Minister of Health you would not have those problems. You would just get that automatic additional $30 mil lion or $40 milli on that you would need to do that.

Even if you were Minister of Justice you would get that kind of money, but being the Minister of Natural Resources or Conservation or Agriculture or Highways, it is a different matter. I look to this government to changing that two-tier system of priorities that has been es tablished in this administration, part of the administration that I was for too many years and even before. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Chair, I thank the Member for that counsel. Mr. Enos: As your elder, I am always pleased to provide that. Mr. Lathlin: And I deeply appreciate that. The Acting Chairperson (Ms.

Cerilli): I think the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire) has a question. Mr. Maguire: Well, I was just going to let you catch up to the speakers here, Madam Chair. Yes, you have indicated, Mr. Minister, that there was some $5 .2 milli on spent so far in this budgetary item, the Fire Program. The total ap propriation here is just about $12 mill ion, slig ht ly up from last year, slig htly more in trans portation. It seems to be the only area that has an increase. Could you give us some indication as to why that was required? Mr.

Lathlin: Maybe I could clarify a li ttle bit about the $5 .2 mil lion that I mentioned. The base budget that I referred to earl ier only looks after salaries. The $28 milli on, for example, last year, that is an extra budget that is not in here but in Government Services. So the $5 .2 milli on is the same thing. It is part of the extra fire suppression that is housed in another depart ment. Government Services. So that is not here.

The increase that the Member refers to is the increase that was necessary for the cost recoveries made by Government Services, their division for pilots and service personnel and salary costs that are related to the salary adjustments of some $361 ,000; leased accom modation $12,000; hangar insurance $10,000. So those were the extra costs I think that he was referring to. Mr. Maguire: So that $380,000, then, you have outlined a bit of it. Can you just ela borate on that larger number again as to what it is spent on. Plane rental? Hangar rental?

Is this for emer gency staff that are on site at any time ready to rol l? Can you give us a breakdown given the fact that we have spent so much less fighting fires this year? Perhaps this is just your budget, and we are not going to assume that we will use all that money, but can you give us an indication of why the transportation budget was up $380,000? Mr. Lathlin: I think the Member is asking exactly the same questions as I asked when I received briefings from the various staff people when I first came on board. The budget that is here, when I was briefed here, I thought it was quite an operation. The

3840 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July II , 2000 reason I say that is in different places in Manitoba we have pilots, planes, that are leased by the government. We have hangars. We have standing lease offers from helico pter companies, for example, regardless. We have Fire Tac crews that are in the communities. They are under salary. Regardless if there is one fire or no fire at all, we spend that money. Now, when there is a fire occurring, then we, of course, have to go into the extra fire suppression budget that is housed in Govern ment Services. But, yes, that is a lot of money that we spend.

Even if there is no fire, we spend that money. * (16: 00) I know when I visited some of the offices when I first became minister, I was very much interested in that because I had direct ex periences with the fire suppression program when I was chief at OCN, so I was always interested in how they managed the fire sup pression program. Even the Fire Tac crews, I did not understand that when I first came here, because I was always under the impression that, well, if there is a fire, we just go and grab IO , I2 guys and we rush to the fire and put it out, and, you know, we just pay them for that.

If they are out there in the bush for I5 days fighting the fire, that is all the expenditure we incur. But it does not work like that. So that is why we see this $36I ,000 that is used for that purpose. Then, of course, there are other expenditures, as I indicated earlier, leased accommodation, hangar insurance. Last month. I think it was last month, I had a chance to fly in one of the heli copters when I went touring the cutting area of Tolko and other companies up North. I was quite impressed by the operation that we have out there.

We landed in Snow Lake, and that is a Tac camp, and I saw all these guys running around in orange-coloured clothing. They have a camp set up there just ready to go into action. So I was impressed. Mr. Maguire: Thank you for that answer, Mr. Minister. It gives me some more comfort. I have a son who is a pilot, and he has gone to Ontario to find work, and he has found work. I was just about to the process of suggesting that if this was for ministerial transportation, that I would have to get him back to fly you around. But you have assured me that it is not for that. I think we can go ahead and pass these lines.

The Acting Chair person (Ms. Cerilli): 12.2. Regional Operations (

g) Fire Program (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,388,30 0- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $7,6I 1,1 00-pass. Resolution 12.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $36,724, 1 00 for Conservation, Regional Opera tions. for the fiscal year ending the 3I st day of March, 2001. Shall the resolution pass? Mr. Maguire: I just have a comment, Madam Chair. Maybe it is my hearing, I thought you said $36,74 1.000. I believe it is 46. Are we looking at Resource Programs? The Acting Chairperson (Ms. Cerilli): Just for clarification for the Member, in the main Esti mates book, it is page 37. Shall the resolution pass? Resolution agreed to.

There has been a request for a brief recess. five minutes or so. Is that agreed? [Agreed] The Committee recessed at 4:08p.m. The Committee resumed at 4: 14p .m. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. This continues our Estimates this afternoon. We will begin Resolution I2.3. Resource Programs (

a) Water Resources (

I) Administration (

a) Sala ries and Employee Benefits $25 1,400. Shall the line pass? Mr. Maguire: Just in regard to Water Resources, or bef ore we get into that, Mr. Chairman, as we go through some of these sections this afternoon, now that we are out of the regional offices and that sort of thing, there will be an opportunity, as I have just spoken

July 11, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3841 with some-we have some questions in regard to the gas and oil industry. It is my understanding that there will be some staff to deal with those in subsequent days and that we will not bother doing that today? Mr. Lathlin: The answer is yes. Mr. Maguire: I have many coll eagues, too, or a few coll eagues who may take the opportunity of coming in in the next day or so, tomorrow, who may not be available today, to ask a few ques tions on some of these issues.

I do not mind proceeding and passing some of these lines, provided that they may be able to come in and ask a question or two. They may have some individual constituency concerns they would like to get on the record. Would that be acceptable to the Minister? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes. Mr. Maguire: I thank you for that, Mr. Minis ter, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the concerns that we have in Manitoba, obviously, is the whole issue of water resources, and it is going to be a big issue as we move forward.

We are looking at lines here dealing with not just the resources but Water Licensing, Water Pla nning, the whole strategy around water development. We talked about that a bit in committee this morning with Bill 15, drainage in the province, but it is much bigger than that, Mr. Minister. It is to look at the situa tion of water management, the overall situation in Manitoba. We had talked about geographical boundaries earl ier today.

You started to talk about the process of some of the districts that we have set up: northwest region, northeast region, central region, et cetera, and we have passed the Budget lines on those. Some of the issues that I was talking about on boundaries was to deal clearly with geographical boundaries. Can you give us some indication of whether or not it is your government's mandate or idea to move ahead with, or would you even consider using these particular regions to correlate with water shed areas in the future of Manitoba? Mr.

Lathlin: Let me first tell the Member, yes, we agree with the concept of managing our water in Manitoba on a watershed basis. I think that would be moving in the right direction. I think it makes sense for us to do that, but the boundaries of those watershed areas in relation to the regional boundaries that we are contem plating on making it as our integration work continues. We have no plans to align the regional boundaries based on the watershed areas because I just think that the two are unrelated for that purpose right now.

I think we should concentrate on aligning geographical boundaries in the way that I tried to describe earlier, by using the RHA boundaries example. I think that is the way we want to go, but I agree with you whol eheartedly that we should look at the management of our water based on watershed areas. That is where we are striving to move to. Mr. Maguire: Part of the whole process of water resources, of course, is to provide the administration with the opportunity to put in place what it feels is the necessary means to protect and conserve our resources in Manitoba, and the water resources.

A great impact of this is not only in the mining and the forestry industry, the wildl ife habitat, but particularly in agri culture as well. I know the Minister is looking at various processes, with the bills that he has brought forward, of trying to protect the water systems in Manitoba, to protect the integrity of the environmentalist aspects of the water development that we have in the Province of Manitoba. Can he give me some indication of what he believes to be the issues that are most heavily involved in surrounding that?

Can he give us any indication of whether his govern ment has any new direction, what his priorities are in that particula r area as well? * (16:20) Mr. Lathlin: The issues, new directions, I do not know if I would say that they are new directions. They are activities that we have to involve ourselves in, in the next li ttle while. In many cases, we do not have a choice but to look at these initiatives, for example, if we have to look at the most effective way to all ocate water, that we do not overalloca te and put ourselves in a bind. I think the quality of the water is also

3842 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 very high priority. We want to make sure that there is enough water for the many purposes water is needed for, but in this case, we want to make sure that there is good potable water for everybody in the Province. The other one we are looking at is we have to make sure that there is adequate flood mitigation measures put in place, diking and putting in the infrastructure so that the impact of flooding can be lessened. Mr. Maguire: No doubt that the Minister is familiar with the issue that I wish to raise.

We have dealt with it somewhat in regard to the issue of the lindane issue that came up in the northeast side of Winnipeg here. These products were, we think, moved in there, placed on the ground, have subsequently been removed. We have been there and seen it, and it has been removed and, hopefully, cleaned up. I wonder if the Minister could give me an update on just exactly where that issue is at this present time. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, I have to agree with the Member that the lindane situation was a very serious situation. That is why I took a great interest in that particular area.

As a matter of fact, I personally visited the area just so I could see what we were talking about in terms of proximity to the street, the wells, the homes in that area. As of this past week, I am advised that from all the sampling that we took, all but one sample, apparently, showed some trace elements of the product. It is well below the levels of even the standards that Agriculture used when this substance was still being used by agriculture in the old days; the residual material left in the soil is quite minuscule.

We have taken a position that the area has been decontaminated, and we have classified it as having been fixed up, if I could use those words. We continue to send written reports to the councillor that is responsible for that area in the City of Winnipeg and also the Reeve of the R.M., advising them on the status of the sampling that is going on and the monitoring that is going on, as well as giving them the results of all the sampling and monitoring that is going on. I know at the time that it occurred, there was quite a bit of anxiety, and rightfully so.

But I think now, people are quite satisfied that we have taken the appropriate measures, and the area has been virtually decon taminated. Everything is well. * (1 6:30) Mr. Maguire: So the levels that the Minister has referred to are the test holes that were drilled near the site that contained traces of lindane in the water in those test holes-te st wells, they were called-at a lower level. Is that correct? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, the test holes that the Member is referring to were taken right at the site.

I would like to advise the Member as well that the written reports that we have. we will provide him with those reports. The test wells' sampling that we have taken, the soil sampling that we have taken, the results are all recorded in the written report. and I pledge to the Member that we will get him a copy of that report as soon as possible. Mr. Maguire: I would thank the Minister for a copy of that report.

I was at the site on at least one occasion when the Minister was there, and I know that the members along the street involved were glad to see us there that day to have a chance to ask first-hand the process that you and your de partment were going through, and I think they appreciated that. But, I think, they are still more than sceptical that there could have been other problems occur. Would you concur that the soil structure of such a nature in that area that the process of leaching would be very difficult in that particular area? Mr.

Lathlin : Apparently, the small amount of leaching that may be occurring and has occurred in the past is very small. But I think the soil that area in there has is a very heavy clay base ap parently and, whatever small amount of lindane might have leached, it would not have gone through the clay base. So, we are going to pro bably not be carrying out the extent of activity that we carried out when the issue first came to light, but we are continuing to monitor, just to make sure. Mr. Maguire: Can the Minister indicate to us what kind of monitoring they are presently continuing in that area? Mr.

Lathlin: One of the things we are going to be doing is monitoring the ground water wells and continue to advise people in that area by way of written reports as we get the results from

July 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3843 our monitoring the water quality in the ground water well. Mr. Maguire: So you are continuing to send water samples out of those test holes to water resources and there will be continuing reports on that area? Mr. Lathlin: That is correct. Mr.

Maguire: Can the Minister indicate to me and I know there was a great deal of concern amongst the citizens that live in that particular region-that he is satisfied that the soil structure is uniform enough in that area, that there are no sand streams, gravel streams, that sort of thing, in that particular location of an area, that would perhaps have allowed some of the product to have ventured into these test wells, if you will, through the soil structure as opposed to surface water movement? Mr.

Lathlin: Yes, I can advise the Member that based on the advice that our technical people are giving us, the soil structure seems to be solid in that it is uniform and there are no holes where the lindane material can go through. But even though the technical advice that we are getting is suggesting that everything is above standard, or everything is okay, we are still going to continue the monitoring and giving the reports to the people that live in that area. I agree with you people got really anxious for a period of time.

I know there are probably still lingering doubts as to whether the situation has, in fact, been rec tified. Just to give him that extra reassurance, we are going to keep monitoring and keep sending the reports to them so that there is no doubt in everybody's mind that we had actually remedied the situation. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The situation, I guess, is exacerbated and the concern of these people by the fact that as you move further out of the city, maybe just beyond the Perimeter, this being just inside the area there, the Perimeter Highway, that the soil structure does change as you move out into Springfield and into the rest of the area. Having had an understanding of the situation with the refurbished dump area, waste area that has been reutilized just neighbouring these folks, that where there are ongoing test wells in that area all the time, they had concerns about perhaps what might happen to surface runoff.

Can you give us an indication or me any indication or this committee any indication as to how close some of the change in soil structure occurs to that region? Does it come close to the Perimeter? Is there some of it that is not actually such a heavy soil clay nature inside the Perimeter area? Mr. Lathlin: I have to apologize to the Member that I do not have that particular information right on hand and, given the technical nature of the information that he is looking for, I prefer to go back and ask our technical people and give us the right information. As soon as I have it, I will forward it to your office.

Mr. Maguire: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, for that. If you could just bring that and table it here in the Committee, that would be very good. I would appreciate that. I think there is a concern there as well that there was some distance between this area and these people's homes. Were there any test holes done in between that area, test well sites done between the lindane site and the people's homes, say perhaps halfway between and again closer to their homes? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairman, I understand that test wells were put in on either side of the lindane site, in other words, the test hole between the lindane site and the houses along that road, that street, but I understand too that we did test wells on the other side. I guess what I am advising the Member is that we did test wells on either side of the lindane site. Mr. Maguire: Just for clarity, Mr. Chairman, so those test well sites were within what proximity of the lindane site itself? Can you give us a distance? Mr.

Lathlin: I can visualize that area but rather then trying to guess now, is it 30 feet, 10 feet or whatever, why do I not give the Member a site map, because the site map would have all the locations of the test holes and would also give the distance, you know, either way. I could give him a copy of those maps as well.

3844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July II, 2000 * (1 6:40) Mr. Maguire: Thank you. That would be helpful, Mr. Minister, as well. I guess I was not looking for specifics in the number of feet, perhaps more like it is a quarter of a mile across country to those people's homes and it was maybe within 50 feet of the site, but a test site plan would be great. I would appreciate that. That will show in greater detail the types of questioning that I have. Can the Minister indicate then what his department's view is?

If the clay base is as secure as what has been indicated, then can he give us some indication of what the department thinks might have been able to have taken place in regard to surface runoff, that it is their con cern that any particular contamination that might have occurred from this site would come from surface runoff as opposed to leaching through the soil. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, there was quite a bit of concern in regard to the run-off from the site, but I think that, if the Member will recall when we visited the site that day, he may have observed some berming that had been done around the site.

That berming was put in there in the fall, and so there would have been very little run-off when the snow melted. So, based on that information, I would advise the Member that, even though there was that concern there. As we speak today, I know people are going to continue to have those concerns, no matter what we tell them. I do not blame them; I would feel the same way, too, no matter how much sampling and monitoring we do, which we are going to do anyway. But I think, nevertheless, people are going to be con cerned, quite rightly so, because they do not really know what they are dealing with.

They are relying on the advice of the Minister who relies on the advice of technical people. I think, from where I am sitting, observing the type of remedial work that was carried out in this situation, in my estimation, it was now-in looking at what we have done so far, it has been adequate. One of these days I am going to invite the Member to travel with me to some northern communities, and it will shock him, I am sure, to see for himself, first-hand, some of the con ditions that particularly the Aboriginal people have to live under where there has been no action at all from governments.

I made it my business to visit, personally, the site again. As he said earlier, it meant something for the people for me to be there as Minister of the Crown, but, unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing for his government in dealing with contaminated sites in northern Manitoba. As a matter of fact, this Friday, I am travelling to Lynn Lake again to personally see for myself the tailings and the chemicals that are leaching into the waterways around the Lynn Lake area. and downstream we have people living there and they are drinking this water.

One of these days, I would like to be able to say the same thing to Marcel Colomb First Nation that we have taken all the steps that we can think of to remedy the situation so that their health would not be at risk. I, for one, was glad and happy for those people that government took the action that it did, and I hope that that incident never repeats itself. If it does, I will be very, very disappointed because I have made it known to our people that under no circumstances, while I am in this of fice, are we going to allow those kinds of activities to go on.

There is going to have to be some very tight, close scrutiny of anything that goes on. If there are any breaches of any agreements, licences, I have advised our people that people are going to have to face the consequences for the actions that they take. As I said, I am quite satisfied that we have taken the proper measures. I think we have taken the right steps. I would just like to repeat that I hope those people are able to get over that trauma, and pretty soon they will be able to enjoy their properties in that area. * (16: 50) Mr.

Maguire: We are all as concerned, I think, with every area of Manitoba, as you have indicated. When you referred to my government, I will refer to the fact that I have never been here before, but I know of from whence you come. The situation is just as important and it does not matter what industry you are in. It does not

July 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3845 matter whether it is the removal and manage ment of waste that we have seen here in this particular situation or whether it is the waste from the mines that you have talked about. I have had some experience in that area myself and certainly more experience in the livestock industry.

I would like to get into that in a few moments a bit, but I think that one of the big concerns, I would like to, in closing, just ask you what procedures have been done in removing the lindane, where it was taken, what time frame that was done in and what testing has been done since? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, the material, as I understand it, was scraped off by heavy equip ment machinery, loaded onto trucks and transported over to the Miller hazardous waste site, which is located in the R.M. of Montcalm and which is also a licensed facility. So that is how we removed it and that is where it went. Mr.

Maguire: When was that done, approxi mately? I do not need an exact date. Mr. Lath lin: Mr. Chairman, at the risk of being held onto these specific dates, I believe the last bit of activity that we had there was May 24, the last week in May. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and has there been testing done then of that site since then? Have we any test results, and what did they indicate? Mr. Lathlin: That monitoring and testing activity is ongoing. As I said earlier, we are going to continue to send those reports to people who live in that area. Mr.

Maguire: And so have any test results been brought forward since that date, since that time, Mr. Minister? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, that activity has been ongoing, even as of May 24. In fact, the last testing that was done, I believe, was about a week ago. Mr. Maguire: So there are test results from that determination. Mr. Lathlin: Yes. As a matter of fact, those were the test results I was referring to just a while ago. Mr. Maguire: Have you sent those results out to

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-59
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 59.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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