Manitoba Hansard — 23 April 1970 (Sitting 49, 29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-49

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Thursday, April 23, 1970 Opening Pr ayer by Mr. Speaker. PE TITIONS 1191 MR . SPEAKER: Pr esenting Petitions. Read ing and Receiving Petitions. The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR . CL ER K: The Petition of the Ma nitoba Farmers Union, pr aying for the passi ng of

an Act consentingto the merger ama lgamation of the Manitoba Farmers Union with the National Farmers Union and others. RE PORTS BY STANDING AND SPEC IAL COMMI TTEES MR . SPEAKER: Adjou rned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas. The Honourable Member for Ruperts land. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources)(I nkster): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the honourable member , could I have leave of the House to have this matter stand . (Agree d. ) MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Em erson. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River ) introduced Bill No. 46,

an Act to incorpora te Cl ub de Golf ST-Malo. INTRODUCTION OF GUE ST S MR . SPEAKER: At this point I shou ld like to dir ect the attention of the honourable mem bers to the Gal lery where we have with us 50 Grade 11 students of the Selkirk Col legiate. These students are under the dir ection of Mr. Hiller y and Mr s. Sharp. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister for Municipal Affairs. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here this afternoon. MR . SPEAKER: Or ders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . LEONARD H.

CL AYDON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg leav e of the House to make a short statement. MR . SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave ? (Agreed .) MR . CL AYDON: Mr. Speaker , the Right Honourable John Diefenbaker, former Prime Minister of Ca nada, will be in Winnipeg next Tuesday. I ha ve made arr angements for him to visit this House at 4: 00 o'c lock in the afternoon. This is significant in that it will be the first time a former Prime Minister, or Pri me Minister of Ca nada has visited this Ch amber, and I thought that I should mention this to you at this time. ORAL QUESTION PE RIOD MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Par ty. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Por tage Ia Prairie): Mr . Speake r, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Ed ucation. Is it correct that the governm ent have taken on the setting up of a youth hostel at the Sunset Lodge in Old Kildonan? HON. SAUL A. MILL ER (Mi nister of Youth and Ed ucation)(Seven Oaks): I can't imagine. It is cor rect that the governm ent is in the process of trying to set up a youth hostel in the for mer Sunset Lodge. MR . G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the govern ment con- sulted with the res idents or the council of the Rural Municipa lity? · MR . MILL ER: No , Mr. Speaker , the government has not consulted with them any more than they would consult with the Juvenile Detention Home in Tuxedo. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . "EDWARD McGI}jl.r (Bra ndon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed. to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. Is i tru that the gover nmen is pro posing set up a youth h.ostel in the Gr..and Val ley camping site on No. 1 highway west of r.andr>n?

1192 April 23, 1970 HON. PETER URTNIAK (M inister of Tourism and Recreatioo)(Dauphin): Well, Mr. Speaker, this is the first 1!-v�heard of it. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary que.Uon. Is the-Minister aware that the-re has been correspondence 1rom the municipality of Whitehead rejecting the proposal , or indicat illg their feeling against the establishment of such a hostel in Grand Valley Park? MR . BURTN IAK: As I said It before, �r. Speaker , this is completely new to me. I have no information on that. MR .

SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. PffiLIP PETUR SSON (Minis ter of Cultural Affairs)(Welli.ngton): Mr. Speaker , I would wish to lay on the table a Return called for by the Honourable Member from Bi rtle Bussell. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services. HON. REN E E. TOUPIN (Minister of Hea lth and Social Services)( Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to reply to a question I was asked by the Honourable Member for Portage regarding the Manitoba Home for Boys at Portage la Prairie.

This was in regard to complaints of citizens and so on in the city of Portage la Prairie. The complaints contained in his ques tions are real. There have been escapes from the home and they will continue. However, we believe that as a result of the program that we have under way, that is now being introduced into the Home for Boys , the number of escapes will decline and the nature of escapes will be of a less serious nature. There has been some damage to prope rty in proximity to the home and some automobiles have been stolen. It would be illogical to suggest that this could be entirely eliminated.

However , we believe that the incidents will decline and that the damage will be of a less serious nature as the result of the new approach that the Home for Boys will be using. Reference is also made to the dis satisfaction that exists among some staff members. There is a certain degree of dissa tisfaction which is attributed to the introduction of the new approach in the Home for Boys and the adjustments to this that have been made by the staff. In order to place these complaints in proper perspect ive, it is essential that there be a clear underst anding about the recent change in object! ves of the Home.

In the past, our approach within the institution has been to control the behaviour of the residents strictly in accord with the rules of the institution. Those res idents who obeyed the rules were considered to be good and benefiting from the program. In fact some gained a great deal from this approach. How ever, many do not benefit from this program and cannot benefit because of the factors in their per sonality makeup. In our objective, which is actually rehabilitation- oriented , we recognize the need for different approaches relative to the personality makeup and needs of the residents.

Six months ago my department launched a reorganization of the institutional program to achiev e these objectives. We recognize the fact that: (1 ) our existing facilities were not designed to meet our new objectives and certain changes in the physical plant are necessary. We are work ing on thi s. (2) Our existing staff, many of whom had been with us for a number of years, re quire orientation to this new approach. We are presently carrying out an intensive staff train ing program. The change in staff expectation is produc ing a certain degree of insecur ity and dis satisfaction. MR .

SPEAKE R: Would the Honourable Minister be good enough to indicate whether he is still answer ing a question put to him or is this a statement of the Ibi losophy of the operation of the Detention Home system . MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I'm answering the question. It was a very long question and it required a long answer. MR . WALTER WEIR (Leader of the Opposit ion)(Minnedosa) : Mr. Speaker, on the matter of the question , I wonder if the Minister would read the question so that some of us might be able to associa te it with the answer. MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I will read the question.

Do you want to hear the question? -- (Interjectio n) -- They tell me to finish the answer then I can read the question. Don't get me all mixed up, I'm having enough trouble now. We are prese ntly carrying out an intensive staff trainlng program. See, I'm going to <>tart speaking French. The change in staff expecta tion is producing a certain degree of insecurity - I said this - and di ssatisfaction. Some of the residents of the Home may detect temporary staff insecurity and exploit the dis satisfaction that we have now , or them selves feel insecure because of a change in the expection placed upon them .

The purpose of the new expectations is to help the residents: (

a) achieve a greater degree

April 23, 1970 1193 (MR. TOUPIN cont'd. ) ...•. of self-awarene ss. (

b) achieve a greater degree of self di scipline; (

c) achieve a greater degree of social responsibility and be able to transla,te these achievements into acceptable social behaviour when they return to their community. And here I'd like to mention that this morning I met with the Mayor of the City of Po rtage la Prairie and with a group of citizens that are having a meeting this evening to organize a Big Brother Asso ciation in Po rtage la Prairie and they want to do everything within their capability to help this government achieve its end.

I'd like to mention that my staff has carried out an intensive investigation of the Manitoba Home for Boys and have provided me with a detailed report. It should be noted that the progres sive changes that are required relative to our objectives have just commenced. We recognize the fact that many difficulties will arise during this period of transition and we 'll do our best to keep these to a minimum. However , I want to emphasize that we cannot continue with the old approach just for the sake of a few difficulties that we'r e having now.

Required changes in physical pl ants are necessary and are under active consideration by this dep artment. Would you like me to read the question ? -- (Interjection) -- Would you like the question?

In view of the numerous escapes, stolen cars , break-ins and general unrest among the boys and the diss atisfaction that exists among some staff members at the Manitoba Home for Boys in Portage la Prairie , would the Minister give serious consideration to ordering an immedia te in vestigation into conditions at the Home for Boys to see if the prese nt methods employed by the administration are in the best interests of all concerned. Mr. Speaker , while I'm on my feet - I don't want to read anything else, all I want to say that I ..... MR.

WEIR: Might I ask the Minister a question related to the question he just read? It sounded to me that what it was asking for was a yes or a no. Could the Minister not have an swered it that way? Was it really a long quest ion? MR. TOUPIN: While I'm still on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to have the young men here pick up this statement and give a copy to each member of the House. It' s another state ment but I won't read it. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Pa rty. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Based on the answer to my question, could I ask a supplementary question , Mr. Speaker?

Is the Minister satisfied with his investigation and exoneration of the present methods at the Boys Home, and is he satisfied with the progress being made at present? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I am satisfied of the progress and I'm very happy of the cooperation that I'm recei ving from this group of lay people in Po rtage la Prairie. I feel that they will definitely be able to help us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakesi de. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside) : Mr. Speaker, I direct a questi on to the Honourable Min ister of Mines and Natural Resources.

In light of the statements -- we ll, the fact I suppose that the fishing is to be curtailed on Lake Winnipeg, has he any indication from the FRED people what implication this may have on the Hnausa Fi sheries Training Program? MR. GRE EN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware that it has any effect on the training program, but I couldn't be certain of that so I'll have to take the honourable member' s question as notice. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary que stion.

Pe rhaps while he is doing that, would he perhaps also consider the advisabil ity of perhaps greatly accelerating that training program dur ing this season where fishermen are going to be idle , and woul d he consider an accele rated program at the Hnausa Training Ce ntre? MR. GRE EN: Yes , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE AKER: :The Honourable, Member fo Churchill. 'Fhe Honourabl Minister of Tour ls and ..Recreation. �. BURTNIAK: Mr . Speaker , a the request of the HonOI.lrable Member-'for Birtl� .Bussell, I would like to table the Or-der. or Return, Order No. 15 and Order No. 6 MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, might I ask the Minister of Health and Social Services if he would be prepared to have the statement which he presented to the House - and I recognize and I'd be satisfied if it isn't read - but if we could have it printed in Hansard so that it becomes a part of the record of the House. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

April 23, 19'10 STATEMENT MR. TOUPIN: Certain comments made recently inside and outside the Hou8e of Commons at Ottawa regarding the dumping of raw sewage into the Red River by the Town of Selkirk makes it advisable for me to bring the facts of the situation to your attention. First of all, attempts apparently are being made .in Ottawa to relate this situation to the mercury pollution of fish in Lake Winnipeg. Indeed, the member for Winnipeg Centre, Mr. E. B.

Osler, according to press reports, has asked the federal Minister of Fisheries to bring this matter up with the Manitoba Government on Monday when he discusses the question of compensa tion to Manitoba fishermen because of mercury poisoning. Not only are the two questions unrelated, but the entire matter of events at Selkirk are not being placed in true perspective. Mr. Osler is quoted as saying it is ironic that a government agency-- that is, the Mani toba Clean Environment Commission-- should authorize a municipality to dump raw sewage into a water way.

Superficially, this appears to be a reasonable statement, but he says in effect that the Commission issues licences for people to pollute. Here is the situation: 1. The licensing procedure gives the Clean Environment Commission the power to bring polluters or potential polluters before them and allows the Commission to investigate the situa tion. 2. The terms and conditions attached to any licence are set by the Commission in such a way as to exert control over the polluting or potential polluting agency.

It is quite unreasonable to expect any plant, or town, to immediately clear up a problem that has existed for some time. Such is the situation in the Town of Selkirk. Under

Section 14(1) of the Clean Environment Act, a plant in operation and discharging waste at the time the Act came into force ... that was June 15, 1968 ... may .!P£!I. for an interim liceBBe to continue the practice. An interim license has a maximum term of five years. The lfown of Selkirk has been engaged in dumping its sewage into the Red River prior to June 1968. An interim license gives the Clean Environment Commission power to bring the polluters before them and to set out terms under which a license will be granted.

These .terms require the polluters to take steps to begin correction of the situation which caused the pollution. Many situations cannot be corrected overnight and the five-year period gives the plant in volved an opportunity to being correcting the situation and the Commission power to set a term within that period in which the situation must be cleared up. When that interim license runs out the Commission holds hearings to determine if conditions have been met and to consider applica tion for an ordinary license.

As far back as 1961 the Provincial Sanitary Control Commission had been concerned about the dumping of sewage at Selkirk but according to the Act under which they operated they had no power to force the Town to stop its actions. At that time it was indicated to Selkirk that, when Winnipeg had completed their sewage disposal facilities, Selkirk would be required to attend to theirs. The argument here was that, while the sewage from very many thousands of people in Winnipeg was being dumped in the Red, why pick on Selkirk.

Thus, when the Clean Environment Act came into operation it gave the government power, for the first time, to require Selkirk to take some action. The Clean Environment Commission started discussions with Selkirk in July 1968 when the To\l.n wished to put in a water treatment plant. The Commission took this opportunity to raise the question of sewage disposal since it would be related to discharges of waste from the water treatment plant. A number of informal meetings and discussions took place culminating in a hearing on November 24th, 1969.

The aim of the Commission was to move towards drafting an interim licence that would not impose im possible conditions on the Town of Selkirk. The Town of Selkirk had many problems to con sider, including its total town planning with its industrial park and negotiations with industries wishing to settle there. Also there was the matter of the considerable costs involved in several major projects, including the water treatment plant, and other improvements.

Originally the Town asked for five years, but as Mayor Montgomery has indicated, the Commission suggested that it should be three years with an annual review. However, the Commission agreed not to set the period until the Town had had an opportunity to prepare its plans, cost studies and priorities. The Commission also indicated that these should be submitted by August 1st, 1970. Having reviewed these the Commission will of course set the minimum reasonable period" in

April23, 1970 1195 (MR. TOUPIN cont'd. ). which the Town should stop dumping raw sewage into the Red River. It seems that the Town of Selkirk had been cognizant of its responsibilities in this area and was preparing in any event to proceed after Winnipeg had completed its work. In fact the Town has for some time set aside land for the purpose of constructing lagoons and pumping facilities. It would seem in

summary that both the Clean Environment Commission and the Town are exercising their responsibilities in a proper manner. It is difficult to relate the discharge of sewage from a small town in Manitoba into one of its own rivers to the pollution of Manitoba rivers with mercury by installations outside Mani toba -- the latter would seem to be very much a federal responsibility.

Finally it would seem to be more ironic for a federal M.P. to pick on Selkirk, Manitoba, when the largest metropolis in Canada is discharging raw sewage into a river of natiQnallm portance, Other provinces are not exempt from a situation similar to that of Selkirk. The national publication "Water and Pollution Controls Directory for 1969/70" indicates that Manitol:>a has at least one of the two highest percentages (86. 6 percent) of municipalities pro vided with sewage treatment facilities.

The same publication indicates that more than 80 per cent of municipalities in all the prairie provinces are provided with sewage treatment facilities. Ontario is shown to have only 32 percent of its municipalities similarly endowed and Quebec less than 4 percent. Perhaps our Federal Legislators should turn their eyes to the opposite side of the Ottawa River where the City of Hull is discharging raw sewage into that noble stream. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M.

FROESE (Rhineland): I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the House Leader, \\DO is also Mines Minister. Has a submission been made to the government since it has been in office, or has it from the lower Red River Valley Water Commission or has it been consulted in any way in connection or regarding the development of the Pembina basin development? MR. GREEN: I don't know, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the First Minister.

I wonder if the First Minister would consider it very important that the Mani toba Archives have in their possession the mementos and historical documents pertaining to the past Premiers of Manitoba, and if so, I wonder if he could advise the House whether or not the province was able to acquire the mementos of the first Premier of Manitoba, the Honourable Armand Girard, which I understand was auctioned off in eastern Canada yesterday. HON, ED. SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, to answer the honour able member's question ..... HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St.

Johns): You know his name, don't you? Do you know his name? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, to answer the question, yes, I do regard it as signifi cant. I understand that authorization has been given for the calling of bids, for bidding on this, and I'm wondering out loud whether it has any significance, the fact that the man in q~,testion was named the Honourable Mr. Girard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance. Could he in form the House by how much the increase on automotive fuels will be in taxation? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL SUKIW (Minister of Agriculture}(Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the other day I. ... MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I asked a question. Is the Minister going to answer? MR. CHERNIACK: Would the honourable member care to elaborate? MR. G. JOHNSTON: Yes, Could the Minister of Finance inform the House as to \\bat the amO'.mt the increase will be of taxation on automotive fuel? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, if I knew what he was talking about, I would still tell him that it's not within my field to answer a question on taxation before the budget, but I don't know what he's talking about.

ll96 April 23, 1970 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the other day in my absence a question was asked about whether or not the Canadian Wheat Board was going to make some'over-dellvery quota privileges available to people that are threatened by flood waters along the various rivers in Manitoba, and I want to report that I did contact the Wheat Board a few days ago and I want to inform the House that the answer to the enquiry was simply that their policy this year is not to make that possible, that they don't see (

a) the crisis that some people think there is; (

b) they don't have the capacity to handle such a situation because of the elevator situation which is loaded to capacity in most areas; and the fact that they are involved heavily with the allocation of boxcars now to move grain and cannot allocate additional boxcars for this specific purpose.

One other point that was mentioned was that farmers should not perhaps feel that each year that the responsibility for moving the grain is really that of the Canadian Wheat Board in emergency situations, that it probably is reasonable to expect some adjustment to be made whereby the farm people affected, or in those areas that are threatened, might consider re locating their granaries so that this will not become a problem in future. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assinlboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assinibola): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Finance.

One of the government ministers has made a statement outside the House that motorists will be asked to contribute to the auto insurance fund through increase in gasoline tax, and the question that my leader was asking, what increase will there be per gallon on gaso line for this insurance fund? MR. CHERNIACK: I did not see or hear the statement, but I do not believe that any hon ourable minister said that there will be an increase in gasoline tax. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps if you get in touch with the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would indicate to the honourable member that he and I each have a right to speculate as to what policy may yet be. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GmARD: I would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Trans portation. I would like to know who will be responsible, or which level of government will be responsible to pay the cost of the extra buses that have been hired to overcome the inconven ience of the high waters at Emerson? HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Mlnlster ofTransportation)(Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I would say in view of the fact that the school board went ahead on their own without consulting us and hired buses at $400. 00 a day, that it would be their responsibility. MR. GffiARD: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister aware that the buses were hired by EMO and not by the school division? MR. BOROWSKI: My report from the engineers was that the school board made the negotiations. We were attempting to negotiate a deal with the army. They went ahead and made their own deal. As far as I'm concerned, they're not getting a plugged nickel from our department. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Ministerof Industry and Commerce)(Brandon East): Un fortunately the Member from River Heights is not in his seat but he perhaps can read this in Hansard. He asked the other day whether we would considerm.akiog representationtotheFederal Government in connection with possible proposed changes of the Auto Pact between the United States and Canada, particularly as it affects combines and tractors and their manufacture in the province.

First of all, I would say that the Manitoba Government is most interested in promot ing the growth of the agricultural machinery industry in the province and I think this is evl denoed by our support of Versatile Manufacturing Limited. However, the Canada-United States Auto Pact is based on the mutual reduction of tariffs and agricultural machinery does now move across the border duty free, therefore there's no basis for a presentation to include such machinery.

As far as Manitoba manufacturers which do come under the provisions of the Auto Pact, that is buses, bus manufacturers, this government has been in contact with the Federal Depart ment of Industry, Trade and Commerce with regard to the current review of the Auto Pact, and I'd like to assure members of the House that we will continue to monitor this situation to ensure that the interests of Manitoba manufacturers will not be forgotten.

April 23, 1970 1197 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR . GIRARD: Mr. Speaker, I wru ld like to addre ss a question to the Minister in charge of EM O, and the question is the same that was addres sed to the Minister of Transportation just a minute ago. I don't know which Minister is in charge. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister, the duty Minister relative to EMO, I'll take that question as notice. It's the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (A rthur): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Coul d the Minister of Agriculture tell us if there is any new deve lopment in the negotiations with the Federal Government on their acreage payment plan? MR . USKIW: No , there hasn't been, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR . BURTNIAK: Mr.

Speaker, I would just ike to bring to the attention of -the House the ,fact-that - I see that the press gallery.Ls in ..full force here this ...afternoon - in regarda to lbJltaj;e, men which appear-ed in_ the M'innlpeg 'Lribune da_ted April 22nd and it' s stated here that with respect to-Hecla Island, it says hel'e that "a yea ag the Co nserv:ative Go vernment announced the island would be made into the J;Lark and at the Gull Harbour on the mainlana there would be a cottage settlement." Well, fil'st of all , Gull H-arbour is not on the mainland, and the second place, it was this government that announced-the plans for Hecla Island.

As a atter of-fact it was A��oaust 28 , 1969, and if my memory serv es "Tile correctly, l' lll"'pretty sure we were in of:r fice at that time. MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of order , are we to understand that it' s going to be satisfactory for everybody to correct news clippings in the House before the Orders of the Day? Mr. Speaker, you know, I'd kind of like to know, and I'm not arguing about this one, but I think we should have an understanding before it went rampant that either we do or we don't. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition is raisingth� as a point of order , perhaps it's just as well that we do have some cl arification on it. I woul d submit, Sir, that it is ln order only to raise a comment in the House in respect to a newspaper

article only if an honourable member has been mi squoted but not otherwise. I don't think it constitutes a point of privil ege unless an honourable member has been mi squoted on a significant or major item. MR . WEIR: Well, Mr. Speaker, might I then ask if what we experienced today was a significant item of that type ? Not to be critical of my honourable friend, just to get an undel' standing of the type. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, if it' s in order for me to venture an opinion, I would say that it was perhaps unorthodox. MR . LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr.

Speaker , I wish to addre ss this ques tion to the Minister of Agriculture. Due to the report that a plant in St. Paul, Minnesota has abandoned its mercury seed treatment, and also the fact that the Alberta Government has cited mercury treatment as probable causes of poisoning wildl ife , I wonder if the Minister can tell us if any investigation is being made in Manitoba in this respect. MR . USKIW: I think the question is more properly put to the Minister of Mines and Resource s. MR . GRE EN: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps not being the Minister in charge, but I do know that I was in communication with the Federal Government, oh at least a month ago, relative to cel' taln mercury components that were used in seed treatment which were permitted into Canada after they were banned in Sweden. These are permitted by the federal authorities who regula te these matters, and I have receiv ed a communication from the Federal Go vernment that they are now re(:onsidering what they will permit to be used and what they will not.

I know the name of the specific compound but I don't think it's of value to mention it to my honourable friend. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Robl in. MR . J. WALLY McKEN ZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I was wanting to know of the Min ister of Mines and Natural Resources if he found out, or got any information about the 30 geese that were found in the lake near Lac du Bonnet which I raised I think about a week ago. MR . GRE EN: No, Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that as notice. MR . SPE AKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR . WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, might I enquire of the House Leader if there is co- ordination

1198 April 23, 1970 (MR. WEm cont'd. ). in terms of Orders for Return of questions that are asked? I note today an answer to sn Order for Return indicates that they were not from one department yet it seems that other dePartments were circularized. I'm wondering if the Order for Return is coming in sections or if under normal circumstances they would be co-ordinated. If my honour able friend would look at the copy of the Order for Return I think he'd understand what I'm getting at. And he cana.mrwer me tomorrow, there's no .... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD w.

CRAIK (Riel): Mr. ~aker, a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources. Could he indicate whether the ban on commercial fishing on Lake Winnipeg applies to Tough fish catch used for animal feeding? MR. GREEN: I was asked that question yesterday by the Honourable Member for Gimli and I undertook to take it as notice. ORDERS OF THE DAY- MOTION FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for La Verendrye, that an Order of the House do Issue for a Return showing the following information: The amount paid to each member of the Legislative Assembly for attendance at committee meetings and the amount paid for expenses and other allowances to each member: (

a) in the period from May 25th, 1968 to July 15th, 1969; (

b) in the period from July 15th, 1969 to March 13th, 1970. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. ~aker, there's no problem, no problem here, Mr. Speaker, except that perhaps the honourable member could have leave to explain whether he wants this information in its aggregate form or on a per committee meeting basis. You'll understand there is a difference in how it shows up. MR. MOLGAT: Do I have leave to answer the question as this point? I would like to have the information per committee and then in grand total. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. ~eaker, at this stage may I indicate that Bill No. 47, being the Capital Supply Bill, has been placed on the desks of all honourable members and I would there fore like to move, seconded by the Honourable The Attorney-General, that by leave, Bill No. 47,

An Act to Authorise the Expenditure of Moneys for Capital Purposes and Authorize the Borrowing of Same (2). be now read a second time. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, if I may, just one question for clarification, because as the Minister knows we haven't had it very long and I haven't had an opportunity to check.

I'd just like a confirmation that the language re "transfers, etc." is the customary language to be found within statutes of this type and that there are no different situations or powers contained within lt than what's been customary over a period of time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to the Bill, we had discussion on this yesterday and I don't want to go into any of those details, but as I understand it and according to press re ports, this Bill is brought in mainly to accommodate the government in case of recession or further deterioration of the economic situation in this province, and if so, I feel that we should have been looking more closely at the rural economic situation and provide some measures for the rural people. I think that this program is directed too much towards the city and the larger populated centres.

These are the centres that will receive the benefit from this and the farm community is left out to a large degree and I don't feel this is quite proper. There is another aspect to it as well, that the programs that are brought in here are of a type that once they are brought in will require further expenditures. Could we not put our imagination to work and bring about employment for rural Manitoba in-such a way so that it would enhance programs that would not necessarily require future expenditures because of

April 23, 1970 (MR. FROESE cont'd. ) .•••• them? I'm thinking of inland storage. I think thls would be a proper thing to do. This would provide employment for the rural people, and attheaametime.~ .• · MR. SCHREYER: The honourable member, when he is talking about inland storage, is be referring to inland grain terminals? MR. FROESE: That's right. MR. SCHREYER: Such as at Saskatoon and Lethbridge? The two or three million bushel inland terminals? Well, those come under the jurisdiction of the federal agencies. MR. FROESE: Mr.

SPeaker, I am speaking of inland storage terminals but not nece~ sarily of that size; I'm speaking of smaller capacity terminals so that the farmers coold deliver their wheat and sell it and that we make arrangements with the Wheat Board to get the cash for the farmers. I'm sure that the capital expenditures needed wouldn't be that large and in this way we would give employment, and at the same time with that employment we wwld provide a. benefit to the rural people so that they could deliver their grain.

Not only that, this· would cause them to make savings so that they wwld not have to put out this money in another cr<>p because we know that the facilities are plugged today, that the farmers• own storing facilities are used up and that in many cases this will mean that they will have to put rut additional mooeys for storage purposes. I think this could be a way which we could help the farme11s in three diffel;"" . ent ways and also help the rural people and provide employment if the economy should go further do'\\n, MR.

SCHREYER: Well, I really would like to get clarification from the honourable mem ber so I'll ask him this question. Does he not agree that each and every inland grain terminal on the prairies, and there are five or six, are owned, have been built at the expense of the Board of Grain Commissioners which is a federal agency, and operated at their exj>ense. They recover the cost of operation by a certain surcharge on each bushel of grain. But grain move ment is under federal jurisdiction. How would the province be able to recover the capital cost? We have no control over grain movement. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, I thankthe Honourable Minister for the question. We also know that the elevators that we have today throughout the country are owned by elevator com panies and-therefore these are private companies. Why couldn't the government as well own some of these elevators and collect storage. I think this is a matter of negotiation and there's no reason why such a thing couldn't be worked out. I think we should do something for the rural part of this province and not just cater to the needs of the larger populated centres. MR. SCHREYER: Will yw permit one more question? MR. FROESE: Yes. MR.

SCHREYER: Is the honourable member aware that a private member's resolution was introduced in the Alberta Legislature a few weeks ago asking the Alberta government to build inland storage and they voted it down, the honourable member's friends in the Alberta government. MR. FROESE: Mr. SPeaker, I take a different view, and if Social Credit was the govern ment in Manitoba we would provide inland storage and we would provide the necessary means so that the farmers could deliver their crops and get the cash and have more prosperity in the rural parts ofthis province. MR. WEIR: Mr.

SPeaker, would the honourable member permit a question? 1s there a :unanlmws vote in caucus on that policy statement that you just made? MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, on occasion there has been such a thing that it Wa.sn't com pletely unanimous because I wasn't sure which way to vote, but on this occasion it's unanimous. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few comments on this bill, and I'm sorry I wasn't in the House yesterday when the contents of the bill were being discussed and the break down of the total amount shown on this bill.

I don't want to get into a discussion at this time on inland storage, but I do want to express my disappointment on behalf of the farmers of Manitoba that included in this capital bUlls no money for agriculture, beyond that portion which .is going to the Agricultural Centre of course. But I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that through the past weeks we've had no evidence from the Minister of Agriculture in Manitoba that there may be any hope of any changes that would benefit the farmers of Manitoba in the federal policy which he agreed to originally in February.

At that time, which I've mentioned before in the House, the First Minister did indicate that in the event that no assistance would be forthcoming from the Federal Government that the

·uoo April 23, 1970 (MR. WATI' cont'd.). Provincial Government were prepared to inject to 1he extent of about $12 million cash into our agricultural economy.

I have to express my disappointment that there is no indication within this blll that this money will be provided in the event that the Fed eral Government do not reconsider the program, the new program announced based on wheat acreage and acreage payments, that no amount of money is included here in order that the First Minister might proceed, if necessary, with the promise that he made to the farmers back in February that $12 million of provincial money would be made available in the form of cash advances. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W.

BEARD (Churchill): I won't be very long, Mr. ~eaker, but I wonder whether the Minister of Agriculture couldn't look into the possibility of filling all those empty buildings up at Churchill. It's not inland storage but it's right next to the ou1going storage. There is a lot of capacity up there that could be used. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I'll be closing debate, Mr. Speaker. Let me first reply to the one question which I think is most pertinent, and that was the question whether there's anything in this bill out of the ordinary.

May I indicate to the Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposi- - tion that it was drawn by the highly competent staff which has drawn similar bills for the last number of years and there is no indication to me that there is any deviation from the previous form of bills of a similar nature, and I am assuming therefore that it is routine as to its word ing. I think he will accept that statement because it is -- I have to tell him that I have not checked the actual wording, I'm relying on the competence of the staff that drew it. Now I find it much more difficult to answer the other points raised.

Firstly, the Honoux able Member for Rhineland was here throughout the debate on the resolution that was presented, and for him to read press reports in order to have them interPret for him the debate that took place in his presence is rather peculiar, I find, and - well, it's his privilege of course - but we discussed this only yesterday, and we discussed the features of the proposed authority and the programs therein.

We indicated, at least I indicated that there was no intention to create ex penditure of moneys for the purPose of the loan of helping fight any regressive factors in the economy, that we spoke only about those items which the government felt were of importance and it was a question of adjusting the timetabllng in the event that it proved advisable; and therefore •.•.. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, I understand when we discuss a bill on second reading we're discussing the principle and this principle was brought in, that if conditions warranted it that the program would be accelerated to provide employment, and this is the principle that I was discussing today. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, that's correct, the program could be accelerated if necessary to provide employment, but this really does not relate to the problem of the farmer in the dis position of his grain or cash advances in connection with that.

This is a capital supply bill for the construction of needed governmental purPoses, and therefore when he talks about it being UrbaJroriented and not rurally-oriented, to me this is kind of peculiar to be discussing in the light of what is needed, although I've made a very rapid calculation and I may be out a million or two, but when you're dealing with 30 million, I can say to him that I have quickly calculated some 18 million out of the 32 million which would be-- I should say 20 million out of some 34 million of the moneys we discussed is actually to be spent outside of Greater Winnipeg.

Now, as I say, that's a very rough calculation but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be designed to help the farmer in his present plight, which I recognize and which I acknow ledged yesterday, but which I felt is not part of this program. And the honourable, the former Minister of Agriculture talked along the same lines, but of course he didn't have the benefit of having participated yesterday, as he indicated, in the general debate. He says there's nothing for agriculture.

Well, again I find that a peculiar statement to be made, but not having been present yesterday, I'd point out to him that the Agricultural Services Building of 2. 2 million is related to agriculture, and I would think that the various other programs of a health nature, of a mental health nature, of corrections nature, of government services building- incidentally all of which are planned to be built out of the Metropolitan area, of the fish hatchery, of highway construction, are all matters which should be, and I am sure are, of great concern to the rural communities of the Province of Manitoba, and I assume also when I speak of them as rural com munities I'm including the farmers who feel themselves part of the Province l)f Manitoba and

April 23, 1970 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd. ) •. interested in the welfare of all people in Manitoba and these services are to serve them as well as anyone else. Now, certainly he must know and must remember that when we brought in the capital_ sup ply bill dealing with the self-sustaining funds that were required, that we voted $15 million to the Agricultural Credit Corporation v.hich was in addition to some - I believe it was six million that was available as reported at the previous session - and that was in direct need to service · the special problems in agriculture.

But for him to lOQk for it in this bill - of course he looks for it in every bill, and that's his right and his opportunity to look for it- but I don't think that this is quite the nature of the bill in which one would seek that kind of relief. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, would the Honourable Minister answer a question at this time? MR. CHERNIACK: If it's a question. MR. WATT: Well, my question to the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, is in view of the statement of the First Minister that $12 million would be made available to the agricultural industry- I'm not talking about roads or highways or anything else- the question is, is the Minister of Finance prepared to put up the $12 million if in fact the First Minister does find himself in the position, and I expect he's going to, where he will have to put up the $12 million that he bad already com mitted to the agricultural industry of this province? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, we've been over this time and time again and the hon ourable member doesn't remember or is incapable of remembering or understanding what was said before by the Honourable the First Minister, and be either did not hear all the discussions and the- and I think it was of some length and somewhat repetitive- statements made by the Minister of Agriculture, and if the honourable member is incapable of understanding, accepting and recognizing it, then I have lost the ability to be able to assist him any further. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON.

AL MACKLING, Q.C. (Attorney-General)(St. James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider the following bills: Bill No. 2,

an Act to bring into Force the Revised Statutes of Manitoba, 1970; Bill No. 14,

an Act to amend The Credit Unions Act; Bill No. 22,

an Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; Bill No. 26,

an Act to validate certain By-laws of The City of Brandon and The Rural Municipality of Corn wallis and to enlarge the Boundaries of The City of Brandon; and Bill No. 47,

an Act to Authorize the Expenditure of Moneys for Capital Purposes and Authorize the Borr()wing of the Same (2). MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for E 1m wood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: (Bills Nos. 2, 14 and 22 were read

section by secti()n and passed.) The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, were those sections not amended? Should they not be recorded as amended? MR. CHAIRMAN: Just for clarification, yes,

Section 1 as amended and

Section 2 as amended. (Bill No. 26-

Section 1 to 9 were read and passed.) The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman,

Section 10 and also Section (4) ofAppen~ "C" have to do with the matter of making an award. I raised the matter in Committee yesterday.

I am not going to oppose the Bill, but the reason I'm rising is that since we did not have any official representation by the people concerned, I take it that this matter was made known to the people concerned in accord with this, because we know that if the Municipality of Cornwallis is not indebted or bas large reserves and the City of Brandon might be indebted- as I understand they are indebted- the people whose land is being transferred to the City of Brandon naturally as sume a certain part of the obligation of indebtedness, and I just want it to be on the record if this is the case, and the people are not advised of it, they might not feel too good about it.

I understand the reason for bringing this matter forward and including parts of the Municipality of Cornwallis into Brandon is that they want the land to be serviced and I don't blame them for it. I think it's good. But just for the record, I thought I should mention this.

April 23, 1970 MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 1(}-- the Honourable Minister of Labour. BON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): I think for the record too, l belleve that when the Honourable Member for Brandon West introduced this Bill he made a statement to the effect that there was consent by both the City of Brandon and the Municipality of Cormvallls, so I think that should be placed on the record at the same time as the remarks from my honourable friend the Member for Rhineland. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, that is essentially the same situation as I understand it, that both parties to this Bill are aware of the implications and have agreed mutually to this transfer. MR. CHAIRMAN: (The remainder of Bill No. 26 and Bill No. 47 were read

section by

section and passed.) That completes the work of the Committee. Committee Rise. Cali in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee has considered Bills No. 2, 14, 22, 26 and 47 and wish to report them without amendments. IN SESSION MR. RUSSELL OOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable .Member for Kildonan, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. GOVERNMENT IDLLS mLLS NOS. 2, 14, 22, 26 and 47 were each read a third time and passed. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, may I just take the unusual opportunity to indicate that the representative of one of our fiscal agents in Europe the Krediet Bank of Brussels in Luxemburg is present in your Gallery -has just come in- Mr. Jean Thyessen, and I'm sure he'll be pleased to know that the authority to borrow again has now been granted. He's probably timed his visit just opportunely, but we are telling him we're not ln that much of a hurry but we'll be around to see him in due course. GOVERNMENT IDLLS MR. SPEAKER: Second Readings. Government Bills. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN presented Bill No. 38,

An Act to amend The Water Control and Conservation Branch Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there are roughly four purposes in the Act. The first is to · ~e the name of the branch to the Water Resources Branch from the Water Control and Con servation Branch. I don't regard that as very significant, but the work that it's doing is more properly described under the proposed name than under the previous name.

This Act would also provide for authority for the Manitoba Government to participate with other juriadictions for the planning and construction of water works which fall outside of prov incial jurisdictional boundaries. This is made necessary, Mr.

Speaker, by the fact that tpany of the waterways which we are dealing with and which affect Manitoba may have the source of necessary controls outside of the province, and it's necessary becanse some of the work that is presently being considered is work which involves agreements and programs which involve joint jurisdiction and construction of work outside of the province. The third phase of the Bill is to provide for the establishment of flood areas which basic ally, Mr.

Speaker, give the department the authority to zone for certain types of buildings or construction that could take place in these flood areas, and which regulations could be enforced so that there would not be damage from future floods on construction which shouldn't have gone into the location in the first place. The last

section of the Act is perhaps the most serious in that it enables the department to require, by law, evacuation of certain areas where there is a critical flood threat. This ap parently was done ln 1966 but the legislation to permit it was not as effective as the department believes is necessary, and for that reason we are bringing forward this legislation which would

Apri l 23 , 1970 1203 (MR . GR EEN cont'd. ). make it possible during the critical areas and v.here evacuation is deemed to be necessary, to enforce that type of evacuation by law , and this authority is con tained in the last particular sections of the Bi ll. So that br iefly, Mr. Speak er, is what the Bi ll proposes in four sections. MR . WARJ\TE R H. JORGENSON (M orris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wolseley, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-AR MS: The Li eutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour: the Legisla tive .Assembly at its present session passed several Bi lls, which in the name of the Assembly I prese nt to Your Honour and v.ilich Bills I respectfully request Your Honour' s assent. MR. DEP UTY CL ERK: Bil l No. 2,

An Act to brin g into Force the Revised Statutes of Manitoba, 1970; No. 14,

An Act to amend The Cr edit Unions Act; No. 22,

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; No. 26,

An Act to validate certain By-l aws of the Ci ty of Brandon and The Rural Municipali ty of Cornwallis and to enlarge the Boundaries of The Ci ty of Brandon. MR. CL ERK: In Her Majesty's name , His Honour The Lie utenant-Governor doth assent to these Bi ll s. MR . SPEAKER: We, Her Majesty's dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legis lati ve Assembly of Manitoba in Sessi on assembled, approach Your Honour with sentiments of un feigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty' s person and government and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of this Bi ll, No. 47,

an Act to Authorize the Borrow ing of Moneys for Capital Purposes and to Authorize the Borrowing of Same. MR . CL ERK: His Honour the Lieuten ant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects , accepts their benevolence and assents to this Bill in Her Majesty's name. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Finance. MR . €HE RNIACK:: Mr. eaker, I beg to mov , seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Tourism and Recre ation , that Mr. Speaker do no leave the Chair and the ftguse I'esol-ve itself into a Committee to consider of he Supply to be granted to Hel' Majes ty. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote dec lared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for _ Elm wood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPL Y MR. eHAIRMAN: 'I'he Department of Tourism and .Recreation. The Henourable House Leader of the Libel'al Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I wish to bring up a matter that could well have been brought up in anothel' depar1ment, perhaps the educationaL estimates, but it can still be talked about, I would think, in the Department of 'Tourism and Recr eation because it has to do with the youth hostel, and it has to do wi th the proposal of the government to establ ish, wi thout any consultation whatsoever wi th the people in the R. M. of Old Kildonan, wher-e they' e having a youth hostel put into their municipal ity.

Now I under stand that_ the-hostel is to cater by an� large to out-of-province youngsters who will be tl'avelling through, and I no doubt woold believe that the Minis ter whose-department it will fall under intends to un a sensible, reason1lble operation.for our young people as they travel about Canad a, but I think the people In tb:e area have a right to be consulted on a matter like this.

During th_ question period when I asked th Mini ster of Ed ucation if there had been any form o consultation , he advised that there was none , in much the same manner that there was none when --the ge-vernment deci ded to establish a faci lity in Tuxedo , that there was no con sultation there with the local authorities. But it seemS---to me there' s a difference here. There 's a differenGe. rrhe other government acility, it was not in th nature of a motel or a hotel, it was an institution v.here there was control ove the comings and going of any people who wer e under detention,

whereas in this matter there is no control over the way people come and go and I think th citizens of Old Kil donan have a right to be heard and they have a right to some degree of consultation. Now I'd like to read a letter that all members of the House have received, and I'm sure that it 's the hope of the Mayor and th Councll and citiz ens of the municipali ty that someone

1204 April 23, 1970 (MR. G. JOHNSfON cont'd. ) ••..• does talk about this in the House. I doo't know who the liLA for dua�dl strict is - is it the Minister of Edu catioo? Well, I'm sure that this is a matter tbat llhould be discussed and I think it can be discussed rightly under Tourism because it is a form of-tourism , of catering to people. I woJider if there's any zoning in that municipality. If someone were going to put up a motel or a hotel, is there not some form of zoning there that has to be gone through?

Ox: some form of appllcatiOJL? �erhaps there-Isn't, but in this day and age It' s rathe� UDlsual that there are municipalities or towns or cities who have not developed a zool� pian. So, Mr. Speaker, I think this letter should be read into the record. "Open letter, .The Honourable Edw ard Schreyer, Premier of the Province of Manitoba. Dear Sir: The Council of the Rural Municipality of Old Kildo nan have yet to be officially in formed or eGDinllted coacerniDg the JOUth hostel which -your Minister .... " MR. CHAIRM AN: I hesitate to interrupt the honourable member.

I just wooder whether in view of the fact that this question apparently is being handled by the Minister of Ed ucation, whether the member' s comments and remarks wruldn't be better suited to the Orders of the Day or some other form, because although I suppose the member can make some case for dis cussing it under the present department, it seems to me that the Minister responsible is in fact not the Minister who is involved. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, youth hostels could come under any depart ment. They happen to come under Ed ucation , but I'm sure the matter is related to Tourism.

It' s a form of supplying a service to tourists v.no come into our province. MR. SGHBEYER: Mr. Chairman, on the - I presume It is a point of order that you raise indirectly It 's a point of order and I think the Honourable Member for Portage would agree that this is a matter, the matter which he raises does relate to the Department of Youth and Educa tioo which ls the full and formal title of that department. In the matter of the hostel, the youth bostel comes under the Department of Youth and Ed ucation. It may be irregular, Mr.

Chair man, but in order to demonstrate how accommodating we can be, I think we can, by leave, have the Minister of Youth and Educatio n give some elaboration, explanation at this time. That might suit the Honourable Member for Portage. The Minister of Tourism is not in a posltloo to deal with It inasmuch as i.t bas not come to hi s attention in a dir ect way. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Premier for his support and agreeing to have the matter considered at this time.

It is difficult after the estimates of the Minister of Educa tion have been passed to deal with it and there is a direct relationship, I think, and I use up my grievance for the session. I have a constituency to represent as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to add this point, that if the Minister of Youth and Educa tion does speak at this time , I would also hope that this would not then suddenly involve the Minister of Youth and Ed ucation holdi ng forth in this department. Perhaps he will make a statement, but I would hope we wouldn't get into a cxmtinuous crossfire later on. But I ask the member to continue.

MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the nine questions that are posed, I think could be answered in consultation by the two Mlnlsten,if that wou ld be agreeable. So I ill continue .... MR. LAURE NT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): A question· of the member. I wonder if we couldn't have this - I think the idea is to have this inserted in the Hansard - couldn 't we have this understand�, Instead of reading it because all the members have a CC4JY and I'm sure the Minister could make Ills statement, with the understanding that it be inserted in Hansard. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Well, in the interests of saving time, I agree to that, Mr. Chairman, 8Dd perhaps the Minister of education could answer the nine questions that are posed. H1lve you a copy?

"Dear Sir: The Council of the Rural Municipality of Old Kildonan have yet to be of ficially informed or consulted concerning the youth hostel which your Minister apparently pr<r poses to locate in our Municipality. ''The Council is alarmed that a deci sion which affects the environment, welfare and well being of our citizens appears to have been made by your government and then announced by your Minister on an open line radio program and through other media without any consultation with the representatives of the citizens of this Municipality.

Are we to conclude that the views of our reside nts are to be totally and completdy ignored? "As the persons charged with the responsibility of administering the affairs of this Municipality , we feel that we are entitled to the following information:

(1) Is there to be a youth hostel established in the former Sunset Lodge in Old Kild onan?

(2) If a youth hostel is to be established within Old Kildonan , who is to have the

April 23, 1970 120~ .. (MR. G. JOHNSTON cant' d.). responsibility of operating and supervising the1lostel aad" in particular is CRYPT to be associated with the youth hostel?

(3) What responsibilities are to be assumed by your government in connection with 'the operation of the youth hostel?

(4) What responsibilities, if any, is your government expecting the Rural Municipality of Old Kildonan to assume in connection with the youth hostel?

(5) Will your government assume the expense of providing the necessary sewage treat ment facilities to prevent the raw sewage from the proposed youth hostel further polluting the Red River or is it your intention that the residents of Old Kildonan bear this major eXpense?

(6) Will your government assume the expense-of providing fire protection for the pro posed youth hostel or is it yoo.r intention that the residents of Old Kildonan bear this expense? We might adVise that the Fire Chief of Old Kildonan, in consultation with the Fire Commifr. sioner, inspected the proposed site and has reported to us that our Municipality doe·s not have the equipment to provide fire protection for a building of the height of the former Sunset Lodge.

(7) Will your government assume the expense of providing the police services required in connection with the operation of the propsed youth hostel or is it your intention that the residents of Old Kildonan bear this expense. Our Police Chief has reported that his department has insufficient staff and equipment to provide adequate policing of the transient population of the proposed youth hostel which responsibllity is apparently being forced on the Municipality withoo.t the opportunity of our doing any advance planning.

(8) Is your government prepared to make restitution in full, to residents for loss, or damage or both attributable to or as a consequence of the operation of the Hostel.

(9) Is your government prepared to relmburse citizens in the area for property devalua tion, loss of privacy, loss of serenity. "We are most concerned with the dictatorial and high-handed manner in which your go~ ernment is apparently proceeding with plans for locating a youth hostel in our Municipality without any consultation with us whatsoever. "Su~ly you appreciate that any expense to. be borne by the Municipality, will have to come froin real property taxes payable by our already overburdened citizens.

"Enclosed with this letter are petitions signed by some 764 citizens of our Municipality and surrounding district who earnestly request that your government reconsider the whole matter, and take no further action until an opportunity has been given for ail interested pers~ to make representationst.oyou and your government. Sincerely Yours, C. W. Ferrier (MB.)'OX'); J. Rozmus (Councillor); M. Whiteway (Councillor); A. Jarvis (Councillor); G. Strenetn(COUDCU br); Council of the Rural Municipality of Old Kildonan." MR.

MILLER: I'm pleased that I'm giveh an opportunity to speak on this rather than~ fore the Orders of the Day when my reply would have to be of necessity very short and to the point. I want to make it clear that what we are trying to do here is to make available a youth hostel in Manitoba. We are now I think the only province that does not have a youth hostel, and I reject the attitude and the remarks that some people make about all youth being wild, belng hippies, and in some cases there are some reference in some of the letters I received-referrblg to them as degenerate.

This blanket condemnation is wholesale abuse. MR. G. JOHNSII'ON; I don't know what track the Minister is getting off on but I never made any suggestions along that line. MR. MILLER: Okay. Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, the matter has now been raised. The member asked, Are these going to be out-of-province people? There are going to be in-province people too, there are going to be people from Brandon, from Dauphin, from other points in Manitoba. The question of control. There will be control.

This place will be run in the same man ner as hostels are run in Europe and have been successfully run over the years, the same way they have been run in Ontario for a DUmber of years, Alberta, B. C., etc. The question of zoning. We had to and did receive the approval of the Metropolitan CorP oration of Greater Winnipeg whom we first contacted, because without their approval nothing could be done. We received their approval and I now have a letter from them to this effect. I just got it this morning. It is my intention to discuss this with the Council of Old Kildonan.

This is the first of ficial notification that I have received, this open·letter to the Premier. I had not received

1206 April 23, 1970 (MR. MILLER cont'd. ) ••••• officiai notification from Old Kildonan before. I have talked to tbe Reeve of the Municipality of Old Kiidonan and I explained to him \\hat we were trying to do. Perhaps he's not satisfied with the explanation or perhaps he chose to ignore the explanation, I don't know. But now that this letter has come forward, and as I say, it didn't come forward until today, it is my intention to meet with the Council of the Rural Municipality of Old Kildonan once we know exactly how this place is going to operate.

I can assure members, however, that wbat we intend is to operate a youth hostel, not a drop- in centre, not a hippie-haven, but a youth hostel \\here people can come, check in, they'll register, they'll have to be in by certain hours, where they can get a clean bed at a very nominal charge, perhaps coffee and doughnuts in the morning and be on their way the next day. That's the sole intent of it. It's a need that has been felt across Canada. We in Manitoba have lagged in that direction.

We're simply try ing to make up in this Centennial Year for a need that I know has to be filled because the young people are going to come here, and to simply hide our heads in the sand and wish that they dm't come is not meeting the problem. I'm satisfied that most of these young people come from normal, happy normal families, and they are simply trying to fill the summer months by seeing the country, by coming to Manitoba, visiting with us. They have to have accommodation.

They can't afford hotels and motels which are very expensive, by charging them a nominal fee we can make it possible for them to visit their own province and their own country and to get to know it, and in that way we serve their needs and I think help to make them better Canadians. I can assure the House as I say that it is the intention to run this in that manner. If there are any problems develop, and I say this publicly, if for some reason this cannot be operated adequately and under regulation then it is my intention to simply close down.

The only conditions under \\hich I would operate it is that it's operated properly, adequately, and that the rules and regulations which will be prescribed are followed by all \\ho use the facility. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't think the Minister answered ail my questions. For example, will there be a proper sewage system installed or will the raw sewage be dumped into the river as is suggested?

And one other point, \\here the Fire Chief says in consultation with the Fire Commissioner he doesn't have the proper equipment to provide the right kind of fire protection, is the province going to look after these two items? MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I think it's very odd. Until about two weeks ago there were something like 60 senior, very senior citizens living there. It seems odd that the fire protection which was adequate for so many years suddently is inadequate. If the Salvation Army had stayed there till September, the same fire protection which is there now would still have had to be made available.

And I repeat- with regard to the sewage, the same applies. Had the Salvation Army continued to operate there for another three months, the same conditions which would have existed still exist. It is our intention to operate it this summer. Metro ovms the facility; it's their plan to demolish the facility and there's no intention of making this a long term operation at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (PE>mbina): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a few questions about it. How long can any of these youths stay there after they register before they must move on?

Can it be indefinitely? I have another question or two maybe I'll-- does the fee that you charge when they register cover the cost of operating the hostel? Is there any age limit to the people that stay there; and is it mixed, like both boys and girls? MR. MILLER: Well, I' 11 answer the last question first. No, it is not going to be co-ed; the ratio is about eight, from what I gather on summer travellers, is about eight to one, there's more men than women so that the facility will be for men only. The length of stay will be probably two days at the most.

The fee has not yet been determined; it will be very nominal, it wlll be something along the lines of Ontario which I gather is about 75 cents or a dollar per night. Whether that will cover aU the costs I don't know because we haven't got our budgeting completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: ..... I'm quite serious, Mr. Chairman. Did I understand the Minister to say that this is only for the male sex, there's going to be no facilities for female travellers? MR.

MILLER: It's just in this particular instance we have a limited accommodation and it's simply going to be for male travellers. Apparently, from my understan(ling of it, the YWCA

April 23, 197 0 1207 (MR. MILLER cont'd. ) . • has facilities tv handle most of the girls that are on the road; and the ratio is eight to one, there are a lot more boys on the road than there are girls. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. MCGU:I7.

M: • Ch airman, the... matter wish -to brJng .to the.. attentiO.D o-f the- Minister Tourism and Re.creation i_s one r_e.lated to the _subjec.t under discussion, that of youth hostels, but it involves Grand Valley Park and such I think would not require any SQec;;iaLleave of the House since it comes under the estimates of the department nQw being considereu. Mr. Chairman, there... is a very fine little park called Grand Valley I>arkc.Jlbout ten miles west of Br andon on No. 1 Highway in the Municipality of Whitehead.

It is a very -popular .over night stopping ground for tourists, and the Rural Municipality of Whitehead is ju-stly proud of this little park, but they have now been given to understand that the Govermnent of Mmitoba is Pclan.Ding to construct and maintaW.. a form of youth hostel !!1 this park� The Council of the Muni cipality of Whitehead i-s of the opinion tha it would not be to the benefit of the park md the district to have the hostel placed in that location. No_w. I hasten to explain , M .

Chairman, that they are not in any way: opposed_ to the prJ.Dciple of the establishment of yoUth hostels in Manitoba , but they do feeL that perhaps this park which is presently almost fully utilized duri.Dg the summer season would perhaps be overcrowded by lillY decision of the Man.itoba Government to establish a youth hostel in that position. IJm: bringing it to the attention_ of the Minister of To urism because I feel that be should be very interested in this.

He has at the preBent time a very popular park in a municipality which appreciates hav_ing this.. facility, and he is as Minister providing a wonderful service to the tourists in Mmitoba. The Reeve and Councillors of Whitehead -would like him to know that they're objecting to the propos.ed._establishment on the grounds that this is a �malLpark, and Jl pretty one, constructed for the u�ofthe tourists and it's a great asset to the.Jnotor ists.. as it �sently stands. They feel it would be much too crowded if they had an additional facility such as the youth hostel.

Again, I feel the Minister of Youth and Education might think that thls ls a criticism of the system of youth hostels in principle. personally dn-not feeL that way at all. feel that youth ho�rtels are a very useful faclllty in the province..: and we should have them; ut Lp ass along to y®, Mr� Mini ster_, the feelings of the Rul'al Municipality of Whitehe.ad and I hope that you'll consider em vecy seriously before you decide to place an. additional..h os.tel in_ this park. Thank.. you. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. B:ARKM1\N: r.

Chalr mm, I don't wish to enter this debate to� length, but I was enthused: with-- the: suggestion by my colleague from Portage Ia I>ralri why not more was �id about the Mississ ippi Ri.ver P�rkway or sometime§ referred to as tbe 6reat:: IUv_er Road, or ven_mor_e so, thenvonderful route of Pine s to PalmJI. I believe the Minister ..touched on it briefly wben he re_plied...yesterday. I believe that !J-membeu of this -Chamber are not aware ol this great organizJltion, what these people are tcying to do, I think they should take some time ff to just look l.tlt"o thilrmatter.

This o�anization ·a formJ!CI about 20 years ago. In.fact it just seem s like yesterday when I seen a picture about a month ago of th Mayor _of_ St. _Boniface and a group travelling to Minneapolis to help �ng 'th.t he.._ plans.._of this organization.

But I believe, while this raute is perhaps knoWIL.to man of u in the Chamber, I think it now extends to about 27 or 2,80 0 miles, all the way t emu> , ouisiana, right up to Winnipeg here and of couTse-to and some of our Ontario places; hut I believe that this should be an avenue of mvestlga OIL!or our Department of Tourism and Rec!'eation to a much larger step- than has been iiL the past. I know that c::th.e. former Premie wa very intereated. J.n..,.thi.a. In fact it g.oes back further than that when.. the for.mer member of Lakeside was Er.emier_ I know a ot of --enthusiasm wu shown.

I woul.d_ce�y; like to encourage this Minister, since he' s now more or less begin ni.Dg on a real clean Jiheet, I think this is something that should be of great interest to him and his department. I'm.. sure that he's aware that basically there are the ten river states involved plus the two prQvinces, ....munely: Manitoba a.nd:;Ontario. I perhaps... could say that.- it h�pens to be .a coincidence that thi s Great River oad goes througb..the To. wn of Steinbach.

While: this may be a coincidence, I'm sure that lt is not a coincldeJM!e:;th�t this Great River Road.:ex-ls ts and contains thoughts I think of eal imagination. Rm really enthused about these p�, the fact at ten of the states were asked to ask their Congresses... to supply two million dollars :a year,, !-think shows th:e fad that there must be l.nterest-. involved. I'm sure that as--y ou other member_s travel in the Province of Manitoba or elsewhere and wonder when you see the sign of the pilots

1208 April 23 , 1970 (MR. BARKMAN coot'd. ) ..••. wheel with the twelve spokes in it, I understand this .repre sents the ten state·s that are interested in it and of course the two provinces. But I rise for this reason to try to point out, and I' m sure the Minister is aware of this, I perhaps needn't take the time of committee, that thiS" department has such terrific potential ities. We're talkiqt about our agricultural dilemma and some of our industrial problems. I think this is ooe avenue �ere there's still some elbow room left. I'm just thinking of our dif ferent Manitoba economic regional organizations.

I think they should be, aDd 1'm sure they are, encouraged to the fact that they should be plugging this home to their members meeting after meeting because this is me department that has room in this respect. I wish to incur, Mr.

Chairman, that this department really goes into it in farther depth, not just the Great River Road which I think is very important, the fact that so much scenic routes are available to the public, leave alone the - I believe I read at one time there were over 80 lookouts of 400 eleva tion and higher - but I don't wish to at this time mention the fact that perhaps 1, 000 or 1, 200 markers - I don't want to go into detail as far as that is concer_ned, but I do think this is a situa tion where your department, or hi s department, Mr.

Chairman , can Uke full advantage of more fresh air still available to a department in the Minister's hands. I thought It was quite convenient that this road does go -through the Town of Steinbach with our Mennonite VIl lage Museum there just about ready to start gristing some wheat; perhaps we can compete with some of Hull and Michigan's contribution In this respect. I believe -they are one or two of the other places that have a grist mill like this.

Members of this Chamber may not have to be too surprised to find out that within a year or two or by 19 74 which is the Mennonite centennial year, if you just take the trouble of coming down there, we could be trying to sell a quarter of a million or more little packages of three or four, five pounds of flour to bring home to your good wives. This perhaps, while we're sm iling7igirt'no , could be happen l..og and I think lt wut happen. -- (Interjection) -- Yes , and this is correct.

Not only that, I don't suggest at this time this is going to help the quota situation to any large extent, but it could. -- (Interjection) -- Right. So, Mr. Cha1rman, I wish also to leave this other -point that while you ha ve the opportunity of our economic regional departments so to speak, our Eastmen, Westmen and the others, they are enthused; but I'v e attended some of -their meetings and I think more could be said-in regards to this, call it an industry if you like because I am sure this is what it is.

I would like to just at this time close with the thought that we've got to I think take ad vantage of the situation in the Department of Tourism and Recreation that. well, take, for. example, another beautiful spot, the Falcon Lake that happens to be in the constituency of La Verendrye. I'm sure ihat the Honourable Minister has a spot very similar in his own con stituency.

I was just wondering perhaps for the sake of catchtng some statistics, maybe the Minister could tell us how many tourists did visit -Falcoo Lake in the year 1969 perhaps; and also the other aspect, I think the skiing effort ls becoming perhaps a paying proposition, I hope it is. I suggested last fall tha� perhaps it might be an idea if a few changes were pot in there.

I would like to see the present ski lift improved and I suggested last year perhaps a T-bar operation might be-part of the answer, I don't know; but I have a feeling that there are monies coming in and they can be spent to improve, and I think it would be ·nteresting to note what in creases we are getting as Jar as the skllng is concerned.

I certainly agree with the Mlni!fter when he says that we're living in an age where the onset of leisure time will have to be, not solved so much, but where it can be enjoyed, and I'm sure that as we go along and put a few more efforts into this department, I think we all realize that the potentialities are terrific.

April 23, 197 0 1209 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourabl e Member fo r Emerson. MR . GIRARD: Mr. Chairman, fi-rst of all I w.ould li ke to congratul ate.>the Minister on having probably whaL is known as the_best portf olio in any gove_rnment. I can think of no more pleasant job than to deal with- people during their leisure time and making them.. even happier than they already are.

I'd li ke- to ass.ist the Minister if I can by telling him.. thaLthe constit- ency of merson is a very potential area tha can _be.Jiev..eloped by his efforts and his depart ment and his alloc ations, to the benefit of the people of a large segment of Manitoba and in a very desperately needed way. I can't agree tl.'l :i more heartily with the Member from La Verendry� who says that this is he age when .leisure time becomes more abundant and this is the time when recreational facUlties are more n�ed than ever bef ore.

But they're not needed, they're no_t n�ed a thousand miles away and they're not needed a hundred. mUes ..awa_y, they'r e nee<ted as close to the population centre as possible. The development --of -.-Bi-rd' s-- Hill Park was one -that required great effort- but today is an area that is bringing back dividends, maybe not 11i terms of doll ars. but certainly in terms of recreation and satisfactioiL to the people.

I'm suggesting to the Minister that nea-rer fo Wmnlpeg, much nearer to Wmnipeg than the developme nt of Falcon Lake, we have P.Otential in the area of Emerson and one that I wish he woul d-- study very care fu lly. As you have well noticed we have introduced a bill which will permit the incorporation of a club with objective to develop and bring about .a ..golf course at St. Malo. This is important no t only, in fact not mainly to the people of St.

Malo and the Em€rson constituency, but to the people of Winnipeg who a-re able to go to thaLresort- in an hou or less and enjoy,themselves as they would at Falco n Lake. And I think- being closer -and being south instead of east - th�re_ is advantage to thhr area and I would appreciat_e hia efforts ln. the developme nt of -that resort. While I'm suggesting this, Mr. Chairman, I'd just li ke- to indicate to the Minister that reports that fishing at St. Mal o, which is a considel;"able recreation, have been poor in the last little whil e- and I wonder if consideration could be given to the stocking of Lake St.

Malo if it so needs. Just �tnother mention about the- developments that- are possible in the- Emerson COIIBtitu ency. One priority item is the development of Buffalo Point on Lake of the- Wood��-; I'd like at this time to compHment- Eastern Mallitoba Developme nt Corporation for the effort thaLthey have made and the r_esearch that they have given us. It's an exciting proposition ani'J I hope that the government will shoulder its responsibility in:: :developing this multi-mUlion doll ar project. I'm a little COileerned in the inter-relation of '"tourtsm, le isure and eaucation. l feel , Mr.

Chairman, that because more le isure time will be available in the --not too distant futu re, we should now be.- m.aklng efforts to prepare people for the use they wilL m.ake of their leisure time. And think that -pr9bably the bes way that this --,;reparation ougll:t to be made is through our schools and the proper educational system ought to be at least begun ill that- a-rea. I think that there's room for cli>ser liaison between your department and that of education with the purpose of preparing people to spend their le isure time in a way that ts enjoyabl e to them and productive to the province.

In clos ing Pd jUst like to emind the Ministe hat h&Ibas a.... very pleasant .portfol io and I hope that he wU1 "'1nli.Jre it even a li ttl e more pleas@t by developments 'in -the Emerson Gonstitut.ency �hat I gusra.ntee are potential . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Virden. MR . MORRIS " McGR EGOR (Virden) : Mr. €hairman, first I woul d like to compli ment t]l_e Minister in the manner in which he's handling hi��:;:estim.ates.

I woul d l� to ask him in re ferri ng to the sports caravan if there's dates, I didn' hear it or I can't see it in tlie �nitoba brochure as to a sports caravan I believe you r_efer� to going through, and .:when they- start so we coul d fit them in on our particular areas.. ta:- eventa. that might be coming.

I see the Honourabl e Member for Assiniboir is just taking his seat and I would refe to the Buffalo Barbecue last year - that I did take my May. 9 weekend off to not stay at home but to attend it and I think we talk and think tourism a:nd I think we .l!ave to think that .within the province boundaries in order to know more about on� another's situation. And r could carry that on to say that -we are also having a barbecue in Virden -on rune 13 th but this wfil e real ly made from real Buff alo meat, so I!d invite ..:the honourable member to come out and see JlB in Virden- and any other member.

This is in conjunction with the opening of tb:e Great Western Cir cuit of Standard Breds, which is better -knoWILas the Pacers_ llJ!(l Trotters; and this is also in conjunction with the conventiefl of 83.

1210 AprU 23, 197 0 (MR. McGREGOR cont'

d) I hope that the Minister hasn't forgot our lake at Oak Lake. WhUe that's not in my constl.tuency, It is certainly visited by the most of my -constltuenta because it is one of the better resorts in that particular comer of Manitoba.

In recent announcements or news regarding mercury pollution, it's certainly been my task and I'Ye had a lot of mall go out to my southern friends to tell them whUe we have the same problem up here that many of theiT lakes, but in western Manitoba at this time we are mercury free and if they don't see fit to come to WlnnJpeg at least to come to western Manitoba and spend their bucks in western Manitoba, that'll make me extremely happy.

I think we have a real job there to allay these fears that we're reading in our newspapers, that it's not true that Manitoba does not get stung with this bad publicity sort of, because it is a big industry. And I might add, a question I asked last year to the Honourable Mlnister, on Page 1015, September 25th regarding some camp sites who have the sign 1lP that "no overnight parking. " Well we know in rural Manitoba at this time of year - I'm only asking for the summer holiday months, June, late June, July, August and first half of Septem ber that these be removed.

WhUe I'm not aware of any charges being laid, people are certainly travelling by the small traUer and like to pull in somewhere where there is water, where there is toilet facUlties and I do not see any harm why this can't be done. If he would allow me, I'd take that two letter word "no" out of overnight parking. I might do it anyway without his permission. He did promise later on page 1201 that this would be done. But at the last check those signs are stUl up and I would Just try to Impress upon the Minlster that tt is quite important.

I realize this may be making a provincial exception or he may be expected to do this to all such camp sites, and I don't think maybe that is neoessary. 11'a the ones that are not near a big centre where they bav81l1t got a lot of hotels and motels at the area. I think probably that's my main thoughts. Thank you, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. :-"liiiMIIEft ZI : Juat briefly, Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks I'd like w direct to the attention of the Minister as I wish htm well in his endeavours.

I would hope that he would take a very serious look at the Duck Mountain as an all year round resort. I think it has potential, unlimited potential. He knows the area well, I'm not going to dwell on it at great length but I look forward to the day when it wlll be an all year round resort. Another question that I'm wondering if the Minlster would take a look at, maybe buy the Riding Mountain National Park. Offer the Fed s a buck-for it, see if you can get it because the -road is an example today. No. 10 highway ts a clis6race not only to Manitoba it's a disgrace to Canada.

As I understand it was closed a week ago - No. 10 highway, the gate was locked, and I believe some young chap crashed into the gate on this particular night. But that's bow bad the road is - No. 10 highway through ... I know it's not in our jurisdiction but Feder al policy today seems to be that they wish to abandon the area. I unde rstand some of the leases are not being renewed, so maybe the province could take it over and I'm sure we could run it in a very able and efficient manner. I would also again - this bro<!hure, the Minister and I have had a debate on this thing - I again bring it out to tbe House.

It was in very poor taste I thought as far as my constituency was concerned. Many reasons, the first one of course there's -not a town in my constituency in the brochure - not a one. You go through it and you'll find many things are left out, such as the fairs, the major attractions - there's no mention about the Grandview-GUbert Plains Fatr, the Russell Fair and Races. Those are major events in western Manitoba. They'r e not in the brochure unfortunately. I thought parts of it was of course in good taste. The road program it mentions here 366 and 36 7 are good all-weather roads.

Well, I think the Minister has been over those roads and they're not that good and no doubt be wlll be urging the Minlster of High ways to maybe mind a few dollars to try and improve, especially where they lead into the Riding Mountain National Park. And of course, as I said, we debated this - the golf courses. Let's put them all in. 11 just says "golf courses. " VIe debated and the Minister said they only put the public ones in. I don't see any harm in puttl.hg the private courses in the brochure as long as 1t covers all weatern Manitoba.

In ski resorts at the back, the only two that are mentioned is Mount Agassiz and Mount Glenorkt. There 's an excellent ski resort at Roblin wttb all the tows. There's one at Russell. They should be, I think, in the brochure the next ttme that the Minister - and with that I wish him well -and I'll be helping him develop the Riding Mountain and Duck Mountain.

April 23, 197 0 1211 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. r:ON. PETER BURTNlAK (Minister of Touctsm. and ll.ecr�tionUDal!PJ!in): M_r. Chair man, we've had a number of questions asked to-day as well as the time we had yesterday. I would like to deal with them now, some of them. I recall thl!t the Honourable Mernb_er or Rhineland hd a few questions that he asked. One in particular, his conc.ern was the amount of money that this department has allocated this y:ear for hospitality grants .

I would like to inform him, although he l.s-n ot in his seat at the present time but he can read it in Hansard · tomorrow, that to answer that question we have aggroved $20, OOQ for hospitality grant in our department this year. Some of the other questions .. ..that he posed to me yesterday was in respect to in-province advertising. He felt that perhaps more in-province advertis ing should be done.

Perhaps this is true, but in v!ew of the fact that this year 1970 happens to be our Centennial year and througa .the Centennial Cor poration I think that we are going to be advertising things within our province from one end to the othe quite well. In respect to the ,.dam��:,;in his constituency he suggested that perhaps there should be some good closAi& working relationship between my department and that of the Minister of -Mines and Natural Resources.

I want to assure the Honourab e mber that there is great understanding between these tw..o .=d.epartments but I'm quite pleased to say that there is good world.ng relation ship between all departments of this government. The same I think applies to the.. Honourable Member for Rock Lake, when he was dealing with lakes and rivers and what have y.ou. I th1nk t<Q.at iiLmost cases, these questions pretty well apply to the Department of Industry and �Commerce, and if I may say, Mr.

Chair man, that perhaps the Minister of Mines and Naturu Resources can take these questions as notice and perhaps deal with them when his departmental estimates come up in the near future·. Also the Honourable Member for Rhineland was interested to know how much money is being spent by our de partment in the way of advertising. He also wanted a breakdown of all �e thingsr and as long as I've been in this House it seems to me that every time the Honour able Memb_er (or.

Rhineland gets up and asks a question, he always seems to want a breakdown on everything. ·W ell, this is fine if this can be done, but unfortunately as far as our advertis ing is concerned, there is n real breakdown between eastern C.D18111a or western Canada, or �rthern and southern. We do have somewhere in the neighborhood of $60_,..000 which is being spent for advertising in the whole of Canada and something like $240� 000 is set for the United States- advertising. 3r/P,nv he Honourable Member for For t Gar ry was wondering about the Winter carnival.

He pr oposed a suggestion to us that perhaps we should Investigate. this possibility. I .might say at t-his time, Mr. Chairman, that we have had one or two meetings in respect to this p.ossibility, and personally I think that it might be a good idea� But- there al'e certain matters.... that. have to be � out before we can pro.ceed with such a .. .thing and sD-<far these have not been .. ironed o.ut as of- todayo. However, I might like to point out at this time too that perhaps ther e... is something that can be done in this l'espe.ct.

Because in view of the fact that we are going to be studying a gra nt structure for specific events, then I believe, and I'm sure there's no problem here, that once this is outlined and the program is-:made available, t these grants will apply to such a groject as the- Honourable Member for Fo rt Garry suggested. I :would like to thank the Honoura ble Membe or E.merson for his kind remarks. I realize that there are so many places in the pr ovince of Manitoba as I pointed out in my: origi nal sgeech. Manitoba Is a beautiful place.

That there is great potentisl here as far as the tourist industry is concerned and 1 kno that.. all of us, no matter where we come from in the p-r.ovinc e of Manitoba there -are beautiful spots that otight to be developed. But as the members know I'm sure, this takes time and it's just a matter of setting some sor t of priorities as to where we go from here.

And as I suggested in my talk, and I want to repeat that again, that :we are looking at the possibility ..of - or not a possibility, it will be an.. actual fact very shortly, that we ar-e IIDlking studies to tcy and come up -with an ov..eralLmaster plan foLthe Province of Manitoba. We will be lookl.Ilg-at all areas of the: prov:ince and then we'll have to set our 4 priorities and take it-- fro m.. ther.e step by step. We:-bave been::invited to q\dJe a number of ba-rbecues Lunderstand ; ..l hope that I'll be ble to- take most of them in I am--:sureo:cthat they are guite an event.

J want to assur e the Honourabl Member from Vir den, I believe it was, Who .spoKe about Oak Lake. Oak --Lake ha_s....p.ot been fQrgotten. There will be a certa in...am ount of funds

1212 April 23, 197 0 (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) . spent in this area to improve the situation down there thla year. Here again we have to -go back to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources be cause I'm pretty sure that insofar as the stocking of fish in lhe vartous lakes, it falls in that department rather than in this one. The Member for RabUn brought up the subject of brochures again. It seelll8 to be a pet subject of his. I must say that the little pamphlet that the Honourable Member is referring to is not a complete pamphlet; it's only an ori entation map. That's all Lt really is.

But with it goes tbe road map, and also is included in the packet a handbook which gives you pretty well all the information that one might want to have. So I don't think that we can single out just that one particular pamphlet because lt doesn't go out alone. We send out information, we complete a package deal so that all tbe information that is necessary for one to travel around tbe province, to find out where some of the recreation facUlties are, this is all li sted in the package.

Inaofar as -the National Park is concerned, I can't agree with him more because No. 10 Hlgbwaytbrough tbe Park la-- in a rather bad shape, baa been for quite some time, hut here again, ud I understand be knows thla as well as I do, that thla is definitely a federal problem and I have mentioned this in my talks, meetings with the people at Ottawa. Apparently it has fallen on deaf ears but we hope that road will be improved. I believe that there has been some patchillg done the last year. How much impx:ovement was actually made I couldn't say at this tlme. MR.

BEARD: Could the Minister tell us how much revenue the Federal Government get out of that toll road in a year? t MR. BURT NIAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I don't have the_figure at tbAftime. Insofar as the signs are concerned, the Member for Virden referred to this question - will camping be permitted in Waysides ? Signs previously posted prohJbitlng camping will be removed from all wayside parks prior to the opening of the season. Instructions have already gone out to have this done. I'm not sure whether I have missed any of the other questions that hue been related to me.

If I have I am sorry, but I think I have covered pretty well the questions that have been asked up untfi this time. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chalrman, I would just like to make one remark. I understand your department, Mr. Minlster, sent a cheque out to help sponsor a dinner on behali of the Chamber of Commerce for this 83 Route Association and I invite you to be there and in any case thank you on behalf of tbe Virden Ch amber of Commerce for that donation MR . CHAffiMAN :(

Section 1 (

a) to (

c) of Resolution 92 were read and paued) - 92 (d) - The Honourable lrlamber for Birtle-Rus se ll. MR. HARRY E. GR AHAM (Btrtle-Russe l l) : Mr. Chairman, when-we're dealing with grants. it was - I want to thank the Minister for tabling the Order for Return that I had re quested.

It's quite gratifying to see that the $58, 000 grant which the Minister announced on September 26th last year to the 1970 World Hockey Tournament with a breakdown of $17, 000 for promotion and ticket sales, $31 , 000 for six hockey teams and $9, 500 for hospitality, was not ful ly expended, that according to the Return there was 10, 056. 61 made available in 1968; $11, 396. 22 in 169 and $4, 509. 26 in 197 0, for the total grants of $25, 962. 09, out of the $58, 000.

It- is most aafo rtunate . of course, that the tournament was not held, that it ls unfortunate that $25, 000 was spent in a futUe effort and to date there have been no returns or refunds made -- all the grants were made to tbe Winnipeg Enterprises Corporation and as of to date they have not returned any of that money. Much of that money naturally had to be spent as it was received because you cannot stage a promotion as large as that without much advance billi ng. However, there was a saving of roughly $30, 000 .

I wa-s wondering if the Minister would be willing to make a grant , just a token grant to the Yellowhead Highway Association. This ts a private association which is a joint tnterprovlnetal group encompassing members from British Columbia, Alberti, Slskat ehewan and Manitoba to promote the use of the Yellowhead Highway as an al ternative to the No, 1 Highway or the Trans Canada Highway.

I made a speech on it last year 80 I will not repeat -myself, but I do know that the Yellowhead Htghway Association does receive grants fro1n other jurisidctio.ns and I was wondering at this time lf the Minister would be pre pared to make a small grant to that Association. In our Centennial Year 1 think it's more important than ever that we do offer people the

April 23, 197 0 1213 {MR . GRAHAM cont'd) ... use of alternativ-e routes, to-i)e<>ple>-that will be coming here to celebrate our Centennial I think if w� can r.elie\Te sQm.e of the traffic congestion._off_No. 1 filghway and offer them a route which is properlY. mapped and sel'V-iced, thaLthe people will actually, t.hey...might be better off travelling "--Ol that type --of a route. So at this time I would ask the Minister if he would be.._ prepared to assist th ¥ellowhead Intel"provincial Hi ghway Associ ation in any: way? MR.

BURTNIAK· Mr. hairman, as ...y.ou know, the _money that was: not-spent-on account of the tournamentJalling t.h_roJ,!gh. natural!� t's gone back -to general revenue and.. at . .this time I am not prepar.eihto say whether we are definit�l:Y going to .::make •11¥ :mnt from this �oney to the Yellowhead:ll oute However, I wtll take it ..under ad\'isement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. � J;lARKMAN: M . ehatrman, -1 apologize to the Minister that he hat! '&Jlswemd.. the question on -bars at Falcon-Lake. I wa,�not.. in t.he other day and sol'ry I wasn't in awhile ago.

Just: going back briefly to the International Peace Gardens;- ! thtnk �u mentioned that a .$1cl> 000 grant was available - F-ifteen? Right. I'm sure the Minister is aware that the main tenance costs down there have, they tell me risen by at least 25 percent Lt.hink hels also aware that North Dakota at this time is giving them I think it 's around $37 , 500 each two years and they seem to be - I should say $75, 000 in two years, $37, 500 each year. While this is appreciated, they seem to think that it 's nearly impossible to .operate unless-at least another $15, 000 or so could be considered.

I'm sure that the Minister liis pondered this over in his mind and perhaps has by now reached a possi bil ity of rais ing that iigure of $15, 000. I unde� stand insofar as the grants are set up now, this is for $15, 000 and there is no possi ble hopes of possibly doubling_ this at this time. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . BUD SHERMAN .i'ort ...Garcy} : I'd just like to ask -the Minister, I apolog-tze, I waS out of the -:Chamber, he may have-answered my qtrestion and if he dtd-1'11 :read it in Hansard. Did the;;;Mlnlster.mak e reference to the Win ter Carnival plans ? MR .

BURTNIAK: Yes. MR . SHERMAN: Thank you. MR . CHAffiMAN : {The balance of Resolution 92 was rea<hsection by sectioD:: aad passed) Besolution 93 {a) {1 ) -- The Honourable Member.. for tMorris. MR . JORGENSON: I would just like to make a bri ef comment.on this particular Uem. I understand that the Minist er's department wUl be invo lved in the development of a prov:incial resort area at the Spruce Woods rovtnctal Eark and I have had representations-made tc>-me b_y people in m;y: constttuency who have undertaken to develop a recreational :eentre and park nea Rathwell.

These people have, through tbeil'- own initiative a few years ago developed a -,provinCLiaL p,ark in that area that was needed very badly. They: a-re-now under some appre hension that the development of the government park --at Spruell Woods \Vtll"'inte rfere wtth:their opention.

With the amount-of-money that they have invested in thhr proV-incial park; I think they have a legittmate fear-and I wonder if the Minister worilCI like to comment on how he feels the development of the Spruce Woods Park will iDterlere with the operation at-Rathwell, and If in t.he event it does put this- man out-of bUsines s. is the government prepared to compensate him for the loss of lils operation at Ratliwell ?

I -think that=the Minister sb<tulcLbe givi ng this gentleman some .ass.urance that t.he development of.a park at Spnce W®ds -- and Lwant..to assure him that I'm not opposed to the development of that park, but l. thinlL that the priv ate entrepreneur who-ftlled- a-need aLa ttm_e when it was required in t.h area, should have some assurance that he's not going to lose his investment and indeed t.be. ..money: that hJIJlas borrOw� to build this p.ark is not going to be lo�t. MR . BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, k�!ppreci ate the concern of the Honourable Member froJn Morris.

As far as I know, and I .could be wromLl!l this res�ct, �I believe_Jhat there has been no policy established in the past to take care of si tuations such- as the honourable member refers to; but my own feeling s on this is . . that in many cases I think tb&t.. t.b.e people per.haps tend to benefit-more from such a --developmenL rather than lose revenue.

However, as.,_ l said, I don't think that if in the event that someone find s himself in a .posi tion wher.e ae feels that because of other developments, better: de.velopments, ..that he wtll lose �oney, as I say I couldn't say at this time what t.he policy is beca]!Se PQlli:Y o t� extent...has not been developed and per-haps this is s.omet.hlng we might have..to look at but it could become v:ecy

1214 AprU 23, 197 0 ( ··m. BUR TNIAK cont'd) ... very cosUy. But my feelings on this is that I don't think that .anyone In thaUlD e of bWJtneaa would really suff er as a result of a development of thla kind. MR. JORGENSON: I'm somewhat incllned to agree with the views of the Minister in that there is a good possl bU lty that the enterprise that he runs at Rathwell may benefit rather than suffe r from the development at Spruce Woods.

However, I hope that the Minister will give me the assurance that there will be the closest cooperation between the of flclals of his department and the particular gentleman concerned, in the event that there are difficulties that can be worked out between his officlals .and the operator of this particular recreation oeutre. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member fo r Churchill . MR. HEARD: I'm not just sure where this should come in, Mr. Chairman, b I would like to make a couple of points about the York Factory area.

I don't know whether the Minister fe els 1t should come under Parks or under, I suppose, the Department of Mines and Natural Re sources, but if we take the attitude that it could be a park area, in fact I belleve the Federal Government have set aside as a hlatorical point aod unfortunately their policy is, as I under stand it anyway, they spend most of their money in the areas which are most accessible to most number of people and unfo rtunately perhaps York Factory will be a few years before it's �y aooesalb le, but the unfortunate

part is, nunours that I've heard lately, is that again part of it has been destroyed during this year and I think you're going to end up with something simila-r to what is next to the Fort Garry Hotel unless something is done about it.

Now, again this seems to fall into a sort of-jumbled up affairs where the Federal Govern ment say well , it's up to the province and the province say it's up to the Federal Government, but In between this argument is the fact that it is depreci ating a great deal, I really can bonesUy say that as far as I'm concerned, I don't think there Is anything that is closer to the natural state in this province.

Now, maybe they'll say -what is it, Lower or Upper Fort Garry out on � highway ? -Lower -bas been rebuilt and it's right, but I think of historical value, York Factory bas certainly just as much to contribute in the future as far as the tourist point goes. But in respect to this also, it always comes to my mind that it 1s a fabulous fishi ng area, and of course within the Province of Manitoba I don't think there's a place where the shooting of geese can ever touch it because there are literally hundreds of thousands of geese pass that area and stop in that area during the migration season.

Having been there several times, I can assure you that you'll get your limi t within half an hour, an hour, whatever it may be. But the unfortunate

part is that again there are many greedy people, they are actually what they call filleting geese and coming back with gunny sacks full of them and there's a terrible waste; and whUe there was some attempt to supervise this last year, there stUl is no way in which they can control private planes _from flying in there. These are either Cauadian or American planes that can fly in with groups and can take off again and they have nobody that can check them.

I think that there should be some way that we can get around this, where those planes have a point to check into and check out of so there can be some control over the absolute waste that goes on in that area, and of course the destruction, because all these people are trying to take something away with them as a souvenir and there's getting to be less and less left, and in the two or three times that I've been there in the last two years I could see a drastic change. And then of course there are -(Interjection) --No, as far as the York Factory area it self is concerned . But there are other areas.

The museum in The Pas was always privately owned. I' m just not sure whether the town took it over recently or not, but he has li terally thousands of historical pieces from that area that would some day be a great asset to the province in respect to making this into a wonderful tourist area.

I quite frankly admit we 're looking ahead to 50 or 1.0"0 years or something like that, but when they were looking after the Prince of Wal es Fort at Churchill, I believe in fact they took this into consideration and a great deal of those things were stored right at the area by literally digging a bole and putting these things into it and storing it in that way.

This is probably the cheapest way that you could do it But I think there should be-some-assurance that something could be done to keep what is left there because it's worth keeping, and if w� just continue to close our eyes and say, well this is going to be 50 or 100 years from now before there'll even be enough people to go up there or whether people wlll ever want to or not I don't know, but I know that all one has to do is go up and visit it and they come away with the idea that certainly this is one of the historical

April 23, 197 0 1215 (MR. BE ARD cont'd) ... ar-eas, that after you�e left i isn't just a landmark wlth a_ plaque on it saying something but 1t does take you back in your @agination t what tha.first history of Manitoba and western Canada in fact was, and whtle each year we talk about it and each year passes, not too much is done.

Now I reali;e last year the university were in there and they did a.:: great deal of research -in the area itself and came up with the artifac ts, etc. , bu� t-bere's room for a great deal more nd nothing Js being done to continue to see to it that this is set aside. _This is again maybe a pollution problem in that this area has been more successful in that we're getting into the oU industry in that area and that is certainly good, but it would be a shame to see it disappear be cause there are oil companies with men up there for a short time working for the- oil company who have access to that area and of course..their first thought is to take back a souvenir, and they're taking them back and soon there'll be nothing except the barren wasteland left as a historical point.

I think that something should be done to encourage the Federal Government, or to parti.,. cipate with the -Federal Government to see to it that something more is' done-to just protect what is there. I will agree that it is diminishing, but I wnl also agree that 1t is our fault U.t this is taking place because we're really not doing enough.

And I say this, recognizing the fact that improvements have been made in the last two or three years, or steps have been taken in the last two or three years, but really by and large most of the time all-there is is a plaque on the wall saying "Do not take anything away, this Js a historical site. " But of course nobody recognizes that fact , they just go on because theTa's nobody there to see that it is being policed properly. Now, I've thrown two perhaps expensive projects in your lap.

One thing I would suggest, and I have in the past, is to set aside a special place perhaps to shoot geese or to fish and assess these people a large amount of money to go in there. We do it with shooting of polar bears. Is it - what ? - 50 or $100. 00 or something like that. They have projects where you can shoot a .buffalo for a large amount of money, and I don't think it would hurt us at all to set this as!de and say this - ot as a sanctua ry - but this is the place where we're going to get some revenue and use that revenue to protect the area itself.

I think that if people were assessed a large amount of money, even if it's a hundred dollars to go in there, I think they'll still go in there, but it wUl help the government to find the money to protect the area and to keep it in an-area which will be-reserved for maybe our children or our children's chUdren, but if we don't do it now, .. then it'll be too late. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 93 - passed. Re solution No. 94 -3(a)--The Honour able Member fo r Mor is. MR. JORGENOON: Mr. Chairman, I should just like to make a brief comment on tbii particular item.

For some time the Town of Morris has been asking the department to co operate with them in setting up a tourist bureau in the town. It is perhaps one of the most frequently used routes for tourist s coming into the Province of Manitoba from the south, and it's the only town from the border to Winnipeg where the htgh.way goes straight through the town rather than around it. At the entrance to the stampede grounds there is sufficient area there for a tourist bureau, and during the time that the stampede is in progress the depart"" <Jllent does have a booth there or a bureau there.

I.:;ast year we asked th Department of Transportatio while-they were out ther with. their eqUipment to hardtop tl)at Jla_rticular area, just the approach to the sta�ede grounds where a tourist booth could be accommodated.

There are large numbers of tourists coming through the town of Morris who are looking for info rmation about the town, about the province as they come in and they would li�e that info rmation befo re they get into the City of Winnipeg, and I would think that the department would be wUling, or should be anxious to ...co-operate with the town in providing accommodation for a tourist booth at that area so that tourists coming into the Province of Manitoba wnl have an opportunity of gett� tnforJDatton, booklets, maps, etc. at that particular ocation.

L want to say that the town and the Stampede Committee have appreciated the kind of co operation that they've been getting from the department in the past in advertising what must be the biggest -tourist attraction in the Province of Manitoba today, the Big M Stampede, and further assi stance along these lines would be beneficial to not only the town of Morris but-to the province as a whole, and I would hope that the Tourist Department, in conjunction with the Department of Transportation, would provide that small facility - the cost would be not

1216 April 23, 197 0 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) . great at all - in assistiDg the department in promoting this province and helping tourtst. u they come l.hto the Province of Manitoba. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. KR. BARKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm surprised to see under Tourism, under Tourism Promotion, -where I for one, and I'm sure the Minister does too, feel that surely this ts, like I a id before, one department that we look forward to like kind of a dliferent breath of fresh air� and I M8 under Tourism Promotion that It's actually been cut by nearly $15, 000.

I'm just wondering first of all If this Is a fact that our tourists right now, or two-thlrds of our -..nata right now, or two-thlrds of our tourists are staying less than a day on their visit to Manitoba. Surely some promotion should be done In this respect and in many other respects. I'm just wonderiDg If the Minister could somewhat elaborate at this time what kind of adver tising they're using and bow much of this money is advertising as far as tourist promotion ts concerned. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, in respect to the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, I would just like to hope, to give him a full answer to that question, I hope that I can get that Information for you within the next few minutes, or if you would rather watt and deal with It later, I would appreciate that If It's okay with you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resoluti on No. 94 -- passed. Resolution No. 95 - 4 (a) -- passed; (b) -- passed; (c) -- The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, under Grants, if the Minister would be able to gtve us a breakdown to what those grants mean, where they go and in what amounts.

Does he have such a breakdown with him ? I don't think that I would expect him to have them completely, but If it would be possible to get a breakdown of those grants I would appreciate it very much. MR. BURTNIAK: I would be glad to supply that Information to the honourable member. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Would the Minister also, when he gives the information, provide the purpose as well, whether it's sports, what part of it is sports and so on? MR. CHAIRMAN: Re solution No. 95 -- passed. The Department of Tourism and Recreation is completed.

The next department is the Department of Cultural Affairs. The Honourable Minister. MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Chairman, as I rise to present my submission, I was goiDg to have the boys dist ribute among the members some of the medallions that will b

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-49
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