Manitoba Hansard — 8 March 2004 (Sitting 16, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 16 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, March 8, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

653 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, March 8, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS International Women's Day Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): I have a ministerial statement. Mr. Speaker, every year, on March 8, women and men from around the world gather in celebration of International Women's Day to celebrate women's achievements and renew their commitment to the challenges that lie ahead.

International Women's Day, as you know, has its roots in the labour strikes that took place March 8, in both 1857 and 1908, in New York City, where women workers protested exploitative, dangerous working conditions. Their cry was for bread and roses, bread symbolizing eco- nomic security for women and their families and the roses symbolizing a better quality of life. This Government has moved on many fronts to improve the living conditions for women and their families.

For example, the Province has joined with Status of Women ministers across the country to pro- mote awareness of the overall situation of Aboriginal women in Canada, particularly their vulnerability to violence on and off reserve. In September 2003, ministers responsible for the Status of Women directed the establishment of a working group of senior officials to develop a plan of action and to guide the work in this very important area. As well, in January of this year, the Province restored the full National Child Benefit Supplement to all low-income families with children under the age of 18 in Manitoba.

This puts $13.7 million more in the hands of families with low incomes, the major- ity of which are headed by women. In addition, we have one of the best early child- hood education programs in the country due in large part to our early childhood educators.

This Govern- ment continues to support these educators, as can be seen in the most recent improvement in salaries for child care providers. * (13:35) On this day, I believe it is important for us to celebrate International Women's Day by showing gratitude to the trailblazers of the past and present by honouring their hard work and tenacity which helped to make our lives today possible. Women such as Grace Easter, who helped establish the Manitoba Indian Nurses' Association; Jean Folster, of Norway House, who became the first woman chief in Mani- toba; Dr.

Shannon McDonald, physician with the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch of Health Canada and one of the driving forces behind reshap- ing Aboriginal health care in Manitoba; Elder Gladys Cook, who helped establish the National Native Alcohol and Drug Abuse Program; and Crystal Laborero, the first Aboriginal woman to chair at the Women's Advisory Council. This year, Mr. Speaker, in recognition of Inter- national Women's Day, the Government hosted a reception honouring women in Manitoba. This year's theme will emphasize the many varied and diverse contributions made by Aboriginal women.

Manitoba women have always been in the forefront of change in our country. On this International Women's Day, I believe it is important for us to take a moment to remember that, although much progress has been made with respect to women's full equality, chal- lenges still lie ahead. Today I would ask all members to join me in renewing our commitment to women in Manitoba. Thank you. Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): I am pleased to rise and put a few words on the record about Inter- national Women's Day which is marked today, as well as International Women's Week, which is cele- brated from March 7 to 13.

International Women's Day is an opportunity to celebrate women and their remarkable achievements and contributions to society. At the provincial level,

654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 this year's events are focussing on the accomplish- ments of Aboriginal women in Manitoba. One need look no further than the appointment last fall of Crystal Laborero as the chair of Manitoba's Women's Advisory Council and the first woman in this posi- tion. She brings a wealth of experience and ideas to the position, and she is dedicated to enhancing op- portunities for Manitoba women.

Some of us had the opportunity to attend today's event in the rotunda which featured a number of displays on matters such as domestic violence, edu- cation, health and work-related issues. I must say that I find it interesting that at a time when we are acknowledging Aboriginal women's significant con- tributions to Manitoba's society, this Government is waffling with respect to protecting the health of Aboriginal women who might be employed in casi- nos in First Nations communities. I hope they will review their stand with respect to this issue.

There are a number of other issues we are debating this session with respect to women and families such as The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection and Compensation Amend- ment Act. This legislation, coupled with initiatives such as the Family Violen ce Intervention Program in the city of Winnipeg, is integral in helping women and families in need. It is critical that we support programs such as the Fami ly Violence Intervention Program which has played an important role in help- ng women and families escape the cycle of domestic violence.

At the national level, the theme for this year's International Women's Day event is She Is On A Roll, in recognition of the tremendous accomplish- ments that women from all walks of life have achieved both close to home and at the international and national levels. I am pleased to see a wide variety of events taking place around the province to mark International Women's Day. Mr.

Speaker, some of the events include a variety of guest speakers at the University of Mani- toba, sponsored by the U of M Women's Centre, a care shop for women in Steinbach that is being or- anized by 14 community organizations, a celebration dinner in Portage la Prairie's Art Council and, of course, today's events at th e Legislature. These are a few of the events being marked in Manitoba in con- junction with International Women's Day and International Women's Week . Please forgive me for those events I have neglected to mention.

Last Thursday I had the pleasure of attending the Women of Distinction Awards in Brandon, and it is always impressive to see the resumes of the nomi- nees, especially the young women of distinction whose resumes are clearly something to be admired and appreciated. These women come from the broad range of life experiences, yet they share a common purpose to helping others. All our lives are enriched because of their efforts. I would like to thank all of the nominees and the recipients for their ongoing contributions.

In closing, I would like to encourage each and every one of us to take a moment to acknowledge the extraordinary women in our lives and the contribu- tions they have made towards improving our society. Though they seek not recognition, we owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (13:40) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I request leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak to Inter- national Women's Day, and I am pleased that this year there is a focus on Aboriginal women and the contributions that Aboriginal women have made to our life in Manitoba. A number of Aboriginal women have been mentioned so far. I will mention several others because I think there is a very broad spectrum of contributions that have been made by Aboriginal women to Manitoba society. I would mention, for exam ple, the work of Mary Richard in the development of Thunderbird House and in looking at Aboriginal needs in an urban setting.

I would mention the work of Southern Grand Chief Margaret Swan who has been a steady and

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655 forceful advocate for the role of women and the issues of women in the Aboriginal community. I would mention Myrle Traverse, who has been working very hard to bring together the traditional knowledge and western science and bridge these two in ways that can be very helpful to all of society. Myrle has served on the Clean Environment Com- mission. She was part of the Lake Manitoba task force which gave a report recently, and she has been recognized for her contributions not only in Mani- toba but internationally.

I would also mention people like Mary Lou Bourgeois, who ran as a Liberal candidate in the last provincial election and continues to exercise her commitment to the people in the area, going back and helping clean up graffiti and other problems in the area which had not been attended to. So, at a wide range of levels, Aboriginal women have contributed to our society in Manitoba and will continue to do so, and it is fitting that we recognize their contributions today. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29–The Public Trustee Amendment Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak), that Bill 29, The Public Trustee Amendment Act; Loi modi- fiant la

Loi sur le curateur public, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: This deals with the role of the Public Trustee as litigation guardian for minors in unrepresented estates. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us Jeanette Bergmann, who is the guest of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). Also in the public gallery we have from Cham- plain School 18 Grades 5 and 6 students under the direction of Ms. Ellen Cook.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Attorney General (Mr. Mackintosh). Also in the public gallery we have with us today second-year journalism students from Red River College. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Construction Industry Wages Act Review Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of talk recently about the pending floodway expansion. In a radio interview, comments from the Manitoba Floodway Authority CEO, Mr.

Ernie Gilroy, sug- gested that a political decision has already been made to impose a master labour agreement on the project. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker, if the goal of this Government is to increase the wages of construction industry workers and create a level playing field, then the way to do that is by opening up The Construction Industry Wages Act and, after public input, make the neces- sary changes.

Considering the act has not been reviewed in about a decade, and since opening up of the act will allow for proper debate and discussion that will lead to improved wages for all construction industry workers, will the Premier (Mr. Doer) agree to open up the act? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): I think it is important, Mr. Speaker, since the member referenced his question in terms of dis- cussions involving the floodway, to put on the record that we have had a great deal of experience in this province with major projects.

Going back to the Duff Roblin period in terms of hydro construction that has been based on the model that the Leader of the Opposition is referencing, indeed, the floodway authority has made it very clear that they have been looking at that type of model. In fact, one of the key goals of that is to try and attain the same kind of

656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 stability throughout a very major construction project, $660 million, that we have seen in terms of hydro development. Mr. Speaker, I think it is also important to put on the record that that kind of model has also resulted in very cost-effective construction. I look at the Lime- stone– Mr. Speaker: Order. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, if there was true interest in the wages of all construction workers, he would not be so selective in just cherry-picking and ensur- ing that those who just work for the floodway expansion are the ones that can be affected. He would open up the act for all construction industry workers. Will this Government just admit that a master labour agreement for the floodway expansion to ensure the project is using only unionized workers, because that would result in millions of dollars of new union dues?

Will this minister or any minister on that side commit to scrapping plans to a master labour agreement, or is this his way of publicly funding the floodway expansion to pay back his union bosses by filling their pockets with union dues? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Well, Mr. Speaker, if there is any doubt just how far this Opposition has moved to the right, it is the fact that they cannot even agree with what was good enough for Duff Roblin in the 1960s. The model that is being discussed has everything to do with getting stability, getting predictability, getting the job done.

I think the members opposite might want to ask questions about the floodway itself because it is indeed a very important project. We are going to get it built and we are not going to listen to the right-wing ideology which seems to be getting the Leader of the Opposition in some trouble even in his own party. Those days that kind of rhetoric is gone. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that when we ask for a level playing field for all construction industry workers, which is the right thing to do, then this Government should do the right thing and open up the act.

A master labour agree- ment ensures that those companies, those non-union- ized companies, of which there are 95 percent or so according to the industry standards, there is about 95 percent that are non-unionized, they somehow will either be forced under this Doer government to become members of the union or somehow not be able to bid on a very important project in Manitoba. This is hypocrisy, Mr. Speaker. If the Govern- ment really wants to ensure that all construction industry workers across Manitoba, if there is a level playing field, then simply open up the industry construction act.

That is the right thing to do. By introducing this kind of agreement, this master labour agreement, it is ensuring that there are more union dues for union bosses and the bottom line is that the floodway should be built at the lowest pos- ible cost to the taxpayers. Not about union bosses. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, let us put aside the right- wing rhetoric from the member opposite who ran in the election on right-to-work legislation. We know that any issue they get a chance to talk about involv- ing labour will get into the same stale rhetoric, but it worked for the Roblin administration.

It has worked as a model in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties in terms of hydro. It is a cost-effective model. Those discussions are ongoing between the floodway authority and con- tractors and workers, so let us not get into that kind of rhetoric. We are going to build the floodway, and we are going to build it in a cost-effective way for all Manitobans. * (13:50) Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Last spring, despite the Doer government's unprecedented raid of over $200 million from Manitoba Hydro, the Premier was firm that rates at Manitoba Hydro would remain frozen.

That was pre-election talk. We now see that Hydro is seeking a residential rate increase of 7.5 percent over the next two years. Can the Finance Minister (Mr. Selinger) explain why rates of Manitoba Hydro, our residential rates, are

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657 increasing by 7.5 percent when just a few short months ago, and just prior to the election, both he and the Premier indicated rates were frozen and there would be no increase? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister charged with the admin- istration of The Ma nitoba Hydro Act): Well, Mr. Speaker, last spring at this time we had not had the lowest water flow in history since 1940.

So the primary reason is we had h oped the drought that had begun the year before would ease off and we would have sufficient revenues a nd sufficient reserves to see us through that low period and still maintain our debt ratios, our target ratios, that are set by the Public Utilities Board and by the Crown Corporations Council. We have also absorbed, during the last 12 years of no increases on the commercial side and 7 years of no increases on the residential side, we have absorbed 26 percent of inflation by the productivity of the corporation and by the robust exports.

Those are the reasons we have had to seek a rate increase. It will still allow us to have the lowest public rates in North America. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, it has been the policy of Manitoba Hydro to ask for moderate rate increases that are lower, or less than the rate of inflation. Will the minister simply admit to Manitobans that Mani- toba Hydro is having to ask for an exorbitant rate increase strictly as a result of this Government's raid on Manitoba Hydro of over $200 million? I would remind him that precipitation rates are above normal for this winter.

Why does Manitoba Hydro need such an exorbitant rate increase at this time? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, the trouble with reading off questions, in spite of the previous answer, is that you usually get a silly question. I answered the question which the member just asked. We had a 26% increase in inflation since the last increase that we have requested for hydro rates. We have requested 3 percent this year, 2.5 next, in aggregate, and that is some 21 percent lower than inflation has been in the period since the last increase. No, Mr. Speaker, precipitation is not normal across the Saskatchewan River base.

It is not normal across the Red River basin base. Yes, it is slightly above normal in the Lake of the Woods base, but in total, our precipitation in the vast area we drain still remains below normal. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is that the Doer government has resorted to setting hydro rates at the Cabinet table. It is one rate before the election. Right after the election the freeze is off, despite the Finance Minister's, the minister respon- sible for Hydro, and in spite of Premier Doer's promise that rates would not increase. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, that they raided Manitoba Hydro for over $200 million and that is resulting in consumers in Manitoba being faced with rate increases of over 7.5 percent in the next two years. I would ask the minister to explain to Mani- tobans why a freeze before an election, and immedi- ately after an election a freeze taken off, and now they are faced with a 7.5% rate increase. Explain that to Manitobans. * (13:55) Mr. Sale: The actions of this Government in making uniform hydro rates across this province were op- posed by members opposite, Mr. Speaker.

We provided a $14-million decrease for the members of this province that many of them repre- sent, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if they are still against that move by this Government to make rates equal across the province. When you do that, at some point between inflation, the drought situation, rate equali- zation and, in fact, decrea ses ordered by the Public Utilities Board for large industrial consumers, you have to face the fact that after 12 years, you cannot keep rates the same. So, a very modest, lower than other provinces are requiring, a very modest rate increase has been requested, not of the Cabinet, Mr.

Speaker, but of the Public Utilities Board that sets rates in Manitoba. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): When the Doer government raided Manitoba Hydro for over $200 million, it was described by the Winnipeg Free Press editorial board and I quote: A smash and grab

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 approach to balancing budgets. I quote again: It will cost something, regardless of how the Province tells Hydro to find the money. Less than two years later, Manitobans are find- ing out that it is from their wallets that Hydro has found the money to pay off the Doer government's bill. My question to the minister is: Was the editorial board of the Free Press out to lunch, or will he now admit that Hydro's request for a 7.5% increase by next April in the residential rates is a direct result of the Doer government's smash and grab budgeting approach? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister charged with the admin- istration of The Ma nitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, the smash and grab that happened was in January of 2001, when the federal government told us that they had been screwing up the books for the last eight years. We were faced with $140-million loss in our revenues 11 months into our fiscal year. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Sale: That is what we were faced with, Mr. Speaker. We took a look at the history and saw that– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Sale: We took a look at what would be prudent.

We saw that Manitoba Hydro, while they had projected robust earnings from exports, had in fact earned $370 million more than they had projected in their export earnings. We took a look at that and we said what are the alternatives for Manitobans to balance our Budget? One of them, and we thought the prudent one, 11 months into the fiscal year– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to remind all honourable members, I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers.

I ask the co- operation of all honourable members, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. An editorial in the Brandon Sun two years ago stated, and I quote: Now there are lies, damned lies and hydro bills. They went on to call the Doer government's dividend policy and I quote: A hidden tax, a regressive tax. Next April, Hydro customers will see their hydro bills rise by 7.5 percent. What happened to this Premier's (Mr. Doer) promise to Manitobans? My question is simple.

Was the editorial board of the Brandon Sun out to lunch, or can the minister tell me what happened to the Premier's promise to Mani- tobans that he was not elected to raise taxes? Does he think that he was elected to raise hydro rates? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: Order. Before recognizing the honour- able minister, I would just like to remind all hon- ourable members about using parliamentary and unparliamentary words. It is not parliamentary to use an outside source to quote from to use unparlia- mentary language.

I just want to remind all honour- able members of that, even if you use a quote from another source. An Honourable Member: Since when? Mr. Speaker: Order. That has always been the rules. So I am reminding all honourable members. The honourable Minister of Energy, Science– order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River East, on a point of order? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to indicate that if I have used unparliamentary langu- age, I would like to withdraw that. They were not my words, but I will withdraw those comments. Mr.

Speaker: I thank the honourable member for her contribution. ***

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, when we had the difficult situation face us 11 months into our fiscal year, the decision we made was a prudent one, that was to draw down a maximum of $150 million in the first year and no more than 75 percent of the profits in ensuing years which, if there was no profit, there would be no draw, which is why we have only drawn $203 million. I have put that in the context, Mr. Speaker, of the over-revenue from budget that Manitoba Hydro earned in the previous several years of $370 million above its projections. We were faced with a problem.

When the Opposition was in government and they were faced with what they thought was a problem, they sold MTS and ran through the profits. We have Manitoba Hydro. We will always have Manitoba Hydro. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minis- ter's logic holds and he says that he is taking revenue from the past, some $350 million of profit from Manitoba Hydro, when we see Hydro today losing $350 million, is he prepared to put that money back into Manitoba Hydro's coffers so that residential rates do not have to increase by 7.5 percent over one year? Mr. Sale: First, Mr. Speaker, let me correct the member.

The requests are for two years, not one year. They are part this year, part the next year. It is a relatively minor point in this whole somewhat strange debate. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro had over $1.3 billion in retained earnings when it went into this unprecedented drought. No one expected the drought to be as deep or to last as long as it has. Manitoba Hydro has also absorbed some 26% inflation since the last rate increases 12 years ago on the commer- cial side, 7 years ago on the residential side.

Much as it would be desirable if we could never have rate increases, I do not think any business in Canada can absorb continuous inflation, continuous fair wage increases, continuous operating increases and never have to face the fact that small increases are required, Mr. Speaker. Mental Health Care Quality of Care Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): On January 3, Sharon Horn, a resident of Brandon, was found frozen to death. Miss Horn died of exposure and when found was only wearing light cotton pants, slippers and a winter jacket.

The family of Miss Horn, who are in the gallery today, are asking Mani- oba's Chief Medical Examiner to review the circum- stances that led to Sharon's death. Myrtle Woolridge wants people with mental dis- abilities to be able to live and die with dignity. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Health is: Why, after receiving care and support all of her life, did Sharon not receive the support from his depart- ment to ensure she was coping on her own? Why did our mental health system fail her? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, it is a tragedy and, unfortunately, part of our overall society that there are far too many people who are in the mental health system who take their own life or who die in very unfortunate circum- stances.

That is one of the reasons why we have been very aggressive in terms of our mental health renewal policy and have adopted some significant changes in our mental health policy and continue to do that, such as having families involved in care planning, such as for the first time ever having co- addictions and co-mental health services trying to be offered together so that we are off the awful tread- mill of having mental health services in the schools. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, this family wanted to provide health and support to Sharon but did not receive the support or th e guidance from his depart- ment.

The minister must give some leadership to ensure that the shortfalls in the mental health system are addressed. This Government owes it to the Horn family to make sure that future deaths are prevented. While we are looking forward to the outcome of the review, what measures is the Minister of Health prepared to take today to ensure there will be no future situations that will lead to an untimely death such as the case with Sharon Horn? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, when Miriam Toews, a prize award-winning author in Manitoba had her father walk out of a mental health centre and walk in front of a train and commit suicide about five or six years ago, I met with the family. I put Miriam Toews on the mental health renewal group that works with us to make recommendations to deal with this situ- ation.

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 It is unfortunate and it is tragic. It is something that every single member in this Chamber is touched by and every single member in this Chamber is moved by. That is–[interjection] Mr. Speaker, if the member for Roblin wants to put a comment in about mental health and mental health renewal, I am happy to hear his suggestions because we have put in place caregivers and family to deal with these issues.

It is all too frequent that it happens, but mental health issues and issues relating to mental health death are something we all must work on every single day and continue to do so. As I said, when Miriam Toews came on the Mental Health Advisory Committee she gave us good advice, and she has written a book about the experiences of her father, Mr. Speaker, that deal with some of the issues that continue, all of us, to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, Sharon Horn's sister, Myrtle Woolridge, wants answers from this Minister of Health.

If she can be a part of that process, I think she would be more than willing. She is an articulate woman and would provide great insight and assist- ance. I quote from Myrtle: Obviously, you cannot bring a person back, and I am looking for better care for the next person. My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Health: What specifications has the minister initiated to ensure better care for the next person? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad the member asked that specific question because for the first time in history we have performance deliverables to each RHA dealing with mental health, asking that families of caregivers be given the ability to work with the regional health authority, something that never hap- pened during 11 years of Tory government. Mr. Speaker, we put in place a mental health renewal process that includes families and care- givers, a Mental Health Advisory Council, an edu- cation plan for young people, a suicide-prevention plan, expanded funding and resources.

While we do all that, unfortunately a quarter of the people, for example, who are schizophrenic, will meet their death by their own hand. That is unfortunate. That is something we must work on every single day, all of us, to deal with mental health and mental health issues. Mental Health Care Quality of Care Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, what happened to Sharon Horn was a tragedy and it should not have happened. But, not only did Sharon Horn die, so did Dennis Robinson, a mentally challenged man from Portage la Prairie who was forgotten on a bus after an outing and he, too, died.

Can this Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) tell us how it is that Sharon Horn was abandoned, why she was left alone, why Dennis Robinson was left alone and how it was that these two mentally ill individuals have recently died under his watch? * (14:10) Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): It is true that these are two tragedies that we are disc ussing in the House today, and I hope that we will respond in the spirit of dig- nity and respect for the issue we are dealing with now. I know that MDC is very concerned about what has happened last week.

As minister, I have asked for a full briefing as soon as possible, and we will deal with the issues that arise from that. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, when this Minister of Health was in Opposition in 1998 he railed that, and I quote: There is a lack of standards and account- ability in the mental health system. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this Minister of Health: Where are the standards and accountability today? Where is his accountability to deal with Sharon Horn's death and Dennis Robinson's death? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I am glad, I am very happy that, after being in this Cham- er now as Government for four or four-and-a-half years, the members of the Opposition are actually asking questions about mental health issues. When we came into office, we approached with a very aggressive strategy with respect to mental health, realizing that there was an area that the members opposite had totally failed to deal with from about 1998 onwards, Mr. Speaker, that had been totally left behind.

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 We reinvigorated the mental health issue by enhancing programs in place, by creating a program of taking mental health people who were in the system, training them and having them have work assisting other mental health people, never done before in the province of Manitoba, done now; by taking education materials and putting them in the classroom to identify early mental health difficulties, never done before, now done. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, in 1996 the Minister of Health said and I quote: Mental health tends, or has on occasion been a forgotten part of the consider- ation in health care. Roy Romanow went further and called mental health the orphan of the health care system. We asked this Minister of Health to put in place a mental health advocate, and he has refused. Can this Minister of Health tell this House and the many Manitobans who have lost loved ones: What is he prepared to do so that not one more person in this province will suffer the indignity and tragic death that Sharon Horne and Dennis Robinson suffered? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, the members opposite are tending to take individual tragic situations and bring them to the attention of the Legislature. That is their right and we will deal with that. We were dealing with mental health issues and tragedies long before members opposite started reading the news- paper and started trying to be political on this issue. I am trying very hard and we have had education sessions, we have had sessions and we have put in place a plan for mental health. Mr.

Speaker, mental health has been and con- tinues to be the orphan of the health care system, but this is the first time in the Chamber members opposite have made an issue of this, have even talked about the Romanow report. It is like the Romanow report did not exist for members opposite. We put deliverables in the health regions on mental health for the first time in history asking them to be responsible for delivering mental health programs and deliverables that they have to report back to us on. Family Violence Intervention Program Funding Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, the Family Violence Intervention Program will close on June 30 if the Doer government does not agree to co-fund the pr ogram with the City of Winnipeg. A team of two police officers and two social workers attend a family violence call, usually a day after police officers respond to a 911 call to diffuse the violence. Will the Justice Minister com- mit to co-funding the program with the City of Win- nipeg? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Mr.

Speaker, as we all are aware in this House, today is International Women's Day and it is a time to reflect on the achievements, the advancements of the status of women in our communities. It is also a time to think about how we can further pursue the obje ctive of greater empower- ment, a greater role, a greater status of women in our society. It is also a time, in the context of the ques- tion, to reflect on the fact that, since 1974, spousal homicides against women have decreased 62 percent. Mr. Speaker, that should signal, not complacen- cy, but vigilance.

It also sends a signal the responses to domestic violence that have evolved are starting to show some positive improvements, but there is much to be done. We are certainly pledged to do that. Mr. Hawranik: A study by the University of Man- itoba indicates that 80 percent of families who are contacted by the Family Violence Intervention Pro- gram were helped. As a result, family violence was reduced. A provincial funding commitment of $500,000 will be enough to keep the program going. Will the Justice Minister commit to spending $500,000 to ensure that this important program continues? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I was very pleased to see the City of Winnipeg put in place this pilot initiative. I was very pleased to see them prioritize it. I understand that the mayor of the City of Winnipeg made its permanent establishment part of his election commitments. Mr. Speaker, at the same time we recognize that there are fiscal challenges out there. I am very pleased to announce today that the Province has made available to the City of Winnipeg new reve- nues from fines that will enable the City of Winnipeg to continue this valuable project. Mr. Hawranik: Mr.

Speaker, the City needs the Province to participate in this program in order for

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 the program to continue. The program is an extreme- ly important one to end family violence. The U of M study recommends that the program be continued and expanded. Why has the minister refused to specifically co-fund this program with the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the member heard my answer to the last question. I will say that we are very pleased that we have here an example of a municipal government that is also look- ing to see what it can do within its area of juris- diction.

We are all in this together, every Manitoban, every level of government. But, with regard to this particular initiative, I am very pleased that we have been able to identify a source of revenue for the City, new revenues, Mr. Speaker, a total $1.4 million. Of that, $900,000 must be spent on public safety initiatives through fine revenue. I do hope and I anticipate that the City program will continue on a permanent basis. Sleep Disorders Testing Waiting Lists Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, 35 people have died while waiting for testing for a sleep disorder.

This is not a waiting list to purchase a luxury like a new car. This is a waiting list to receive a critical and important service for the diagnosis and treatment of a very serious medical disorder. Sleep disorders like obstructive sleep apnea are serious and can be potentially fatal.

Now that the minister has had a week or more to investigate the causes of death of the 35 people who died waiting for sleep disorder testing, I ask the Minister of Health if he can tell us if any of these individuals died because of fatal conditions known to be associated with obstru ctive sleep apnea such as heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure or its complications, from mental problems associated with lack of sleep, or from stopping breathing due to sleep apnea. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I believe I mentioned to the member last week when he raised this question, that he FIPPA'd the regional health authority, as I understand it, and asked for the number of people that had died while being on a waiting list for receiving a diagnosis of sleep apnea. He extrapolated last week that somehow these 35 deaths were related to the fact that they were waiting.

I indicated to the member that I thought it was very inappropriate for the member to make that kind of a connection and, in fact, I thought it was irresponsible of the member, who I think is trained in this area, to go off and make that kind of a con- nection. Notwithstanding that, I know he is trying to raise a legitimate issue, Mr. Speaker, but to make the connection I think is totally inappropriate and irre- sponsible of the Member for River Heights to do so. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, June 25, 1998, the MLA for Burrows (Mr.

Martinda le), a member of the minister's government, stood in this House and he said, "I believe there are waiting lists for people to be tested in a sleep lab of approximately two and a half years." Sleep disorders can be quite serious. In fact, they can be potentially fatal. Did the minister think his colleague representing Burrows was fearmongering, inappropriate, irresponsible? No.

This is an impor- tant medical condition that deserves attention. * (14:20) The minister and his Government have known about the seriousness of this condition, and yet the waiting lists are no shorter than they were when he came to power. When will the minister start includ- ing waiting times for sleep disorders in his posted list of waiting times? When will he provide information on the causes of death of these 35? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, again, and I note that the member very carefully crafted his words, and it is interesting that the memb er from Burrows raised a very legitimate question in fact, and we have acted on that, I might add. The member likes to murky the waters and talk about the connection which is statistically inaccurate and irresponsible for the member to talk between the deaths and people on a particular waiting list.

I want the member to kn ow that since that time, we have put in place a new medical tariff that recog- nizes, actually a treatment, there is actually a new medical tariff that we put in place in 2001 to recog- nize sleeping disorders.

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 We have expanded the sleep lab operating dol- lars from 1999 by over $100,000. We have expanded the HVADS operating, that is the money going to sleep disorder treatment, from $151,000 to $537,000. We have expanded by more than double, specialized equipment from $734,000 to $1.6 million. Health Care Services Multi-year Budgeting Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, this year we anticipate that we will spend over $7 billion. The NDP have committed to spend an addi- tional $1,295,342,000 annually since they have taken office in 1999.

Wow, can you guys spend money. That is incredible, over 21 percent. This is not about service. A clear majority believe that our health care system is worse today than it was in 1999. My question to the Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk) is: What do you project our annual budget to be when 2005-2006 comes around? This Government, more than any other government in the province's history, Mr. Speaker, needs to have annual budgets, or multi- year budgets being presented to this Legislature, or we risk this Government bankrupting our province. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, we conducted together with the federal gov- ernment, of which I think the member is affiliated, and all of the provinces, that is the federal Liberal government, pre-Chrétien–I am not sure, but the member's affiliate–we conducted a study of services in Manitoba that was put up on the Web site to see what people's satisfaction was on the health care system. It was 86 percent, Mr. Speaker, since we came to office, on a study done in conjunction with the federal Liberal government. Now I know they have their differences on certain days and certain months, but we have put in– [interjection] Yes, we have.

But 60 or 70 percent of the costs of health care go to wages. It was the members opposite, particularly the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), who said give more money to the doctors, give more money to the nurses, give more money to health care tech- nicians, and we have. That is 70 percent of our bud- get, Mr. Speaker, and we do not apologize for hiring more nurses, hiring more doctors, hiring more health care aides. MIR Test Wait Times Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I under- stand that the Canadian Association of Radiologists has recently named this province as having the third- best wait times in the country for the MRI testing. What is the Government doing to ensure that wait times continue to decrease for this critical diagnostic test? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): What I can say, Mr. Speaker, is when we came to office, they were doing 6000 or so MRIs a year. As of today, we are doing 17 500. Today I had the honour of opening the second MRI at Health Sciences Centre. When we came to office, I do not think there was an MRI there. There were two at St.

Boniface Hospital. That was it, the second at Health Sciences Centre. Later on this year we will be opening another one at Brandon hospital to further reduce the waiting lists for which the radiation therapist of a national body, who are nonpolitical, who assessed the situ- ation, said we had the third-best waiting list in the country. We used to have the worst when members opposite were government. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Fisher Air Cadets Mr.

Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to tell the Assembly of a very special event in which I had the pleasure of taking part on the weekend of February 13 to 15 of this year. The Fisher air cadets were mustered under the capable leadership of Captain Len Huff to journey up to their cabin on the shore of Lake St. George, where they underwent three days of intensive winter survival training.

The focus of the excursion was to give the cadets training on how to construct a variety of different shelters, such as lean-tos and quinsies, how to get a fire going in adverse conditions with just one match, how to build a signal fire to attract search parties and so on. Coupled with the map and compass orienteering training they received last fall,

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 on a previous excursion, these young men and women should hold up well if ever thrust unexpectedly into an emergency survival sitution. Mr. Speaker, I wish to commend the parents for having the foresight to enter their children into this worthy program, the volunteers for dedicating their time to ensure the safety of the participants, and the sponsors, especially the Canadian military, for mak- ing this all possible.

In the electronic world that we live in today, with systems in place such as the Internet and satel- lite TV, our children are becoming more sedentary to the point where their good health is in jeopardy, to the detriment of our society as a whole. The cadet program, with its focus on discipline, physical fit- ness, leadership training and survival in the wilder- ness is a direct counter to this trend and should be acknowledged for the good that it does. Keep up the good work, Captain Huff and company. The people of the Interlake are better off as a result of your efforts. BMO Skate Canada Junior Nationals Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): It is my privilege to share with this Assembly the accom- plishments of Kathryn Fenske and Martin Nickel of Thompson, Manitoba, who recently extended Mani- toba's medal-winning streak in national ice dance to five years with their gold-medal performance at the BMO Skate Canada Junior Nationals held in Ottawa February 4 to 7.

Tied for second, heading into the final round of the competition, Kathryn and Martin were virtually perfect in their final number, a two-and-a-half- minute polka rhythm dance which earned them top votes from six of the seven judges and moved them to the top of the podium, where they were awarded the Canadian juvenile title. Mr. Speaker, Kathryn and Martin have been partners for almost four years under the guidance of coach Sue Sutherland of the Mystery Lake club, and spend their summers training in Calgary with Murray Carey, one of Canada's elite ice dancers from the 1970s.

Kathryn and Martin, both Grade 9 students at R. D. Parker Collegiate, are eagerly looking forward to next season, when they will graduate to pre-novice competition. The move to the next category will require hard work and dedication if this dynamic duo is to remain on top of the podium, but Kathryn and Martin are ready for the challenge and are intent on claiming another national ice dance medal for Man- itoba in next year's competition.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratu- late these two very talented individuals on their gold medal at the BMO Skate Canada Junior Nationals and to extend our sincere wishes for continued suc- cess in the future as they continue to represent Mani- toba on the national figure-skating stage. Special Olympics Manitoba Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to attend the opening ceremonies of the Manitoba Special Olympics Winnipeg Region Kins- men Winter Games on Saturday, February 7 at St. John's Ravenscourt School in my constituency.

The games were a tremendous success and a proud moment for the young athletes who participated in the games. Mr. Speaker, these games were arranged with the great support of Special Olympics Manitoba, which continues to do an outstanding job of provid- ing quality sport and recreation programs for Mani- obans. These programs might not be possible, if it were not for SOM's very impressive team of volunteers who give their time and talents to help others enjoy the fun and excitement of sport.

Together, the SOM volunteers, athletes, coaches, board of directors and staff have earned a reputation as one of the most in- novative and progressive chapters in the entire coun- try. These games are also an important asset to Man- itoba as they provide an op portunity for athletes with mental disabilities to compete in a variety of sports that involve strength, endurance and physical skills. Therefore, the amount of preparation, passion and dedication is an integral part of the athlete's par- ticipation. Their drive combined with their athletic talents has helped them overcome many challenges.

Therefore, this momentous stage in their lives is commendable. * (14:30)

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 Further, Mr. Speaker, th eir participation in the training for and competition in these games has enriched their lives and the lives of their friends and families and has helped them become an integral and valued part of the Manitoba community. They have cultivated integrity, innovation and leadership and embraced the challenges of being an athlete. I would like to finish by recognizing and cele- brating their personal achievements.

Finally, I would like to congratulate all the athletes and thank all the volunteers, staff, coaches and board of directors at Special Olympics Manitoba for their time and dedi- ation to this event. I look forward to the national Special Olympics to be held in Brandon in 2006. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Jean Marshall Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): On December 4, I was in attendance for the presentation of the Caring Canadian Award to Mrs. Jean Marshall of Wood- lands, Manitoba. Mrs. Marshall has a long tradition of volunteerism, and I was privileged to be among many in attendance.

The at tendees included family, friends, the honourable Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs (Ms. Mihychuk) and the Lieutenant- Governor and his wife. It was a very special da y for Mrs. Marshall as many people acknowledged her outstanding contri- butions to her community. As the South Interlake Seniors Council noted many times over, she has done great and lasting things for the council, the Wood- lands Seniors Home, Oak Park Lodge, and for all seniors in her community. Mrs. Marshall exemplifies the spirit of volunteerism, and I am pleased that she was recognized for her effo rts.

The constituency of Lakeside, and more specifically the community of Woodlands, are fortunate to have her as a resident. She is a model for all of us and a true community leader. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dan "Heavy" Evason Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to commemorate the life of Heavy Evason and to offer sincere condolences to the Evason family on the passing of this outstanding Manitoban this past weekend. Heavy Evason was a we ll-respected and inspir- ing presence in my home community of Brandon.

Most recently, he was a leader in securing the 2006 Special Olympics for Manitoba. As chairman of the Brandon Special Olympics committee, Heavy was a natural. In his day job at Career Connections, Heavy worked each and every day with mentally challenged and disabled people. He had a heart as big as his body, and his pass- ing represents a huge loss both to Brandon and to our province. Heavy Evason was taken from his friends and family far too soon, at age 41, and his passing will be profoundly mourned by all who knew him.

Perhaps fittingly, he left us while playing hockey and with his best friend, Kevin Smith, at his side. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of both myself and my colleague from Brandon West, who like so many others considered ourselves friends of Heavy , and on behalf of all of our constituents who will profoundly miss his presence in Brandon, we offer our sincere condolences to the Evason family. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS SECOND READINGS Bill 20–The University College of the North Act Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I move, seconded by the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr.

Ashton), that Bill 20, The University College of the North Act;

Loi sur le Collège universitaire du Nord, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill and I table this message. Motion presented. Ms. McGifford: I am honoured today to have the opportunity to address the House on Bill 20, The University College of the North Act, establishing the University College of the North, or UCN as many people are referring to it. As a Manitoba post-secondary institution, as I said at first reading, this is history in the making.

Not only will the act establish a new entity in Manitoba's post-secondary education system, but the University College of the North will, as well, ensure that Abo- riginal and our other northern people are the primary

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 decision makers regarding post-secondary education in their community of the North. Mr. Speaker, peoples from all across northern communities have long expressed their desire to access a range of post-secondary educational oppor- tunities and to access them close to home. The Uni- versity College of the North will transform aspira- tions and dreams into reality. I take the opportunity, to thank those who pre- sented the early vision to our Premier (Mr. Doer). These include former Grand Chief Francis Flett from MKO; Dr.

Verna Kirkness, who led the consultation team; Don Robertson, chair of the implementation committee; and Kathleen Leary from Norway House, who is the chair of the steering committee. I mention these few, but of course I ask mem- bers of the House to understand that this is a com- munity project, a community endeavour and results from a consultative process. Many others are contri- butors to this very important initiative. Mr.

Speaker, one of the major challenges which the University College of the North will face is to offer meaningful services to the 80 000 persons who are unevenly distributed over the 200 000 square miles that constitute northern Manitoba. The geo- graphic and educational ch allenges, I think, are immediately apparent and are enormous. Through the passage of The University College of the North Act, we will create a cohesive, effective post-secondary education network throughout north- ern Manitoba.

It is anticipated that this network will offer a range of post-secondary programming at both the college and university levels in a community- based, distributed manner across northern Manitoba. This approach is significant with what northerners, for many years, have envisioned. We will, of course, build on the facilities, programs and human re- sources that are already present and in place. Mr. Speaker, this Government's commitment to all northerners through the expansion of educational opportunities is clearly evident by the tabling of this legislation.

Access to education plays a major role in community development, and community capacity building is essential to the overall social and eco- nomic well-being of this vast region. Ensuring that post-secondary education is an accessible and viable option for all of Manitoba, including northerners and young people, is an important aspect of our Gov- ernment's Northern Development Strategy. Of course, Mr. Speaker, as well, our education strategy, including UCN, is essential to our economic strategy. Education and economic development go hand in hand.

Aligning post-secondary education with labour market needs and thus creating a skilled workforce which is poised and ready to fill jobs is also key to the overall development of the North. Preparing northerners to fill jobs in the North is a commitment we have made through our Northern Development Strategy. * (14:40) The ability to identify and respond to new opportunities for labour market focused program- ming as this region continues to develop its resources is also essential. This legislation enables us to fulfill that commitment, which is vital not only to northern Manitoba but indeed to all Manitobans.

The North, after all, is an integral part of Manitoba, and its eco- nomic and community well-being affect us all. Again, I repeat, Mr. Speaker, and here I echo our Premier (Mr. Doer), our educational strategy and economic strategy mirror, reflect and strengthen each other. As the Premier says, you cannot have an eco- nomic strategy without an education strategy. I make the point as well that the University College of the North will keep young people in their communities, close to their families and support sys- tems, and so encourage the likelihood of completing programs and enriching local communities.

For too long there has been a drain from northern Manitoba to the south. I would like to take the time now to speak to the legislation itself. As I indicated earlier, the legis- lation will establish the University College of the North. This new entity is an institution that will be devoted to community and northern development and one which reflects the Aboriginal reality and cultural diversity of northern Manitoba. In addition to establishing the institution, the legislation will integrate existing programs and ser- vices from Keewatin Community College into the new University College.

This legislation is a hybrid, a careful blending of current Manitoba community college and university legislation.

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 It also includes aspects of university college governance from structures across provinces, most significantly from B.C., where university colleges have been part of the land scape for many years. I do take this opportunity to thank the individuals from B.C., who were so extremely helpful and offered their experience so willingly and were always happy and willing to give us insight based on their experience.

With the passage of this legislation, it is anticipated that the University College of the North will be established with the clear mandate to serve the educational needs of Aboriginal and northern Manitobans and so enhance the economic and social well-being of northern Manitoba. Once again, we know that a sound economic strategy requires an educational strategy. The UCN will reflect this belief. Through the legislation, the University College of the North will have the mandate to provide post- secondary education, training and instructions.

It will have the mandate to grant degrees, certificates and diplomas; to provide career counselling, basic education, upgrading and l iteracy programs as well as post-secondary transition and preparation programs for under-prepared students; to develop and to deliver joint academic programs with other accredited post-secondary in stitutions; and carry out the work of an educational institution in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that I have met with all presidents from the universities in this province. They are all 100 percent supportive of this institution, and that pleases me tremendously.

One of the early initiatives recommended by Dr. Verna Kirkness during her consultations, one of her recommendations was the development of an Aboriginal study and research centre, a development important to our Aboriginal people, and particularly important to the preservation of history, culture and language. I think this will be a decided benefit to the educational offerings in this province. The University College of the North will be governed by a bicameral system, which includes a governing council and a learning council.

Both bodies will have specific responsibilities related to their areas, as well as requirements to advise and seek advice from each other in areas of which the other has responsibility. This model attempts to move the overall governance of the institution to one that has more of a consensus approach and therefore is more reflective of the traditions and principles of Aboriginal governance models. Mr.

Speaker, the governing council specifically will be responsible for governing and managing the affairs of the University College, with roles and responsibilities reflective of the current university and community college models. The learning council reflects aspects of the academic senate and the edu- cation council. The senate is the academic structure currently in existence in Manitoba universities, while the education council is the academic body of British Columbia's university colleges. Again, I am thankful for the co-operation and advice we have received from British Columbia. Additionally, Mr.

Speaker, there is a council of elders which will play an advisory role within the institution. The council of elders is unique to our Manitoba legislation and quite possibly to Canadian post-secondary legislation. I do not know this for sure but this is what my department advises is likely the case. Mr. Speaker, Aboriginal Manitobans have stressed the need to have an education system that reflects, responds to and respects their needs. One role of the council of elders will be to promote an environment that embraces Aboriginal culture and values.

The other major role, as I have already stated, will be to provide advice, and I imagine that the council of elders will be extremely important to young Aboriginal students and even older ones who are enroled in this institution because we know the wisdom of older folks. When the University College of the North is initially established, there will be an interim govern- ing council created which will assume the duties of both the governing council and the learning council for a period not to exceed two years.

The learning council, as an academic body, will be established when more university programming is developed and delivered. It should take several years. It is anticipated that the governing council and the learning council will be in operation by July 1, 2006. In anticipation of their establishment, the legis- lation contains a sunset clause terminating the inter- im governing council on July 1, 2006, or a day fixed by proclamation, whichever comes first.

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 As I indicated earlier, the integration of pro- gramming and services from the existing Keewatin Community College is also covered through this legislation. All employees, property, assets, liabili- ties, agreements and any bequests are transferred to UCN when the legislation comes into effect.

In respecting current students of Keewatin Community College and their individual wishes, the legislation will also create the option for those students upon graduation to choose to re ceive their certificate or diploma from either Keew atin Community College or the new University College of the North. Finally, Mr. Speaker, if the legislation effective- ly integrates Keewatin Community College into the University College of the North, the current Kee- watin Community College board must be disolved, and is, through the act.

I would like to take this time to thank the current Keew atin Community College board members. Their dedication and efforts to the ongoing development of the college have been very much appreciated. As we move to establish the interim governing council, current Keewatin Community College board members will certainly be considered. I thank all those whose vision and efforts have lead to the development of the University College of the North. It is through your leadership, hard work and ongoing efforts that we have reached this point in our collective history.

It is also through your on- going commitments that the University College of the North will be an institution of which all Mani- tobans can be proud. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I was particularly pleased to learn that the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) has changed his mind and decided to support this initiative. I remember during the last election he specifically said that he would not go forward if elected. * (14:50) At least he was reported in the media as having changed his mind. I thank the member opposite for his change of heart. I am sure all northerners will appreciate his support.

As the expression goes, better late than never. Thank you. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I move, seconded by the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that debate on this bill be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 22–The Water Protection Act Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Just on a point of order, my understanding is that the member is being swarmed by a relatively large size of journalism students out in the hallway on an issue. Mr. Speaker, if we could just await his return to the House, which I think is in a matter of just a few minutes–Steve is getting scrummed like crazy out there.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if we can postpone the item for a minute and deal with another bill. I know the House leader has several bills that he identified that we could move through. Perhaps we could just change the order and continue the work in the Chamber. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, it is not a oint of order; it is a dispute over the facts. p * * * Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford), that Bill 22, The Water Protection Act;

Loi sur la protection des eaux, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill and I table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the indul- gence of members of the House. I must apologize for the slight delay. It had everything to do with the floodway expansion, another major initiative that this Government is undertaking in co-operation with the federal government.

I am sure that members opposite would be very disappointed if I had not followed through in terms of that very important aspect. Mr. Speaker, I just want to be very up front about what this bill is all about. I want to make a few

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 opening comments because I think it is very impor- tant to put on the record how important water is to this province. To say it dominates our landscape is an understatement. We steward about 20 percent of the world's fresh water in Canada. We steward 13 percent of Canada's renewable fresh water flow, right here in Manitoba. [interjection] Excuse me, I thank the member opposite, Mr. Speaker, but I am going to make a leap of faith and drink this.

As the page brings me a glass of Manitoba water, we take for granted the fact that we have good quality water in this province. We take it for granted. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair We actually use a lot of it: 343 litres a day per person in Canada. We are actually higher than that in Manitoba. I want to make it very clear, we cannot take the quality or the quantity of water in this province for granted any longer. We must act now. In fact I am very proud that this Government is acting.

In fact, The Water Protection Act is going to be the most comprehensive water quality and water protection act anywhere in Canada, a very important statement by this Government. I want to give a little bit of the history here, as well. I am glad that the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Derkach) has such an interest in this very important subject, because, for 11 years, I want to indicate this was not very high on the previous government's agenda. I appreciate now that the Opposition House Leader feels this urge to come on over to this side, to share in that vision, that vision for water.

An Honourable Member: Water, water, water. Mr. Ashton: Everywhere, but not a drop to drink. An Honourable Member: He is out of order. It is "water." Mr. Ashton: Coming from northern Manitoba, I appreciate the lessons on diction from the Opposition House Leader from Russell. Those of us from Thompson, we think our diction is just as good. I wonder how you can explain that in Hansard, as well, for those who will read this. I want to put on the re cord that we, very early on, took a very lead role in this important issue. We issued the Manitoba water strategy in April, 2003.

We brought in safe drinking water legislation in 2002, which is now proclaimed. We now have the strongest legislative framework to protect drinking water anywhere in Canada, anywhere in Canada. We put in 12 drinking water offices. We have put in place a new process for inspection, for licensing facilities, for training of operators. We have made a huge difference. We are now building on that suc- cess. We are bringing togeth er the elements of the strategy that was put in place. I want to give you some idea of why this act is a leader across the country.

We will be the only province that will put in place water-quality stand- ards, objectives and guidelin es in legislation, the only province in Canada. It is not unusual in other jurisdictions. No other Canadian province has that type of clear ability in legislation to set those kinds of objectives, standards and guidelines. It allows to identify water quality management zones. I can tell you, we will have the ability to protect sensitive pro- duct ecosystems to protect our drinking water sources, our other sources, through water quality management zones.

I want to stress that this will apply to any activity that can impact our water quality, not just one or another particular sector. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this act promotes conser- vation and the protection of sensitive aquatic areas. You may notice in my opening comments, I refer- enced 343 litres a day. That is the consumption in Canada. In Europe, a similar developed environment in terms of the economy, we have half of the per capita consumption. In the developing world, by the way, a good supply of fresh water is about 20 litres a day. To put it in perspective, one flush of a standard toilet is 18 litres.

We think we can do better. In fact, we think we have to do better in many parts of this province, because when you withdraw water from the natural ecosystem and treat it like we do and then clean our cars and water our lawns with it, by the time that water then returns to the natural ecosystem, our ecosystems are under much greater stress. That is a very important aspect of this bill. We put in place specific measures to deal with major drought situations. I want to put on the record that we are still in a drought situation in many parts of this province.

I note earlier that one member of the Opposition seemed to feel that there was a great

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 situation out there in terms of moisture. That is not the case outside of a number of areas of the province, most notably around the city of Winnipeg. * (15:00) I say to members opposite, including the Mem- ber for Fort Whyte (Mr. Lo ewen), when you end up in a major drought situation, we currently have a very limited ability province-wide to deal with regional droughts. This would allow us to do the job that Manitobans would expect us to do in those kinds of circumstances.

I want to stress that this bill also includes speci- fic reference to the 1909 Boundary Waters Treaty that oversees the boundary water issues between Canada and the U.S.

I think it is important, because when we are fighting now to protect Manitobans, protect our environment against the negative impacts of the Devils Lake outlet, if this kind of legislation was in place in North Dakota I think you would see many people taking the State of North Dakota to court, because, quite frankly, they are not following in terms of the basic princi ples of that treaty, which protects Canadians and Americans from polluted water being transferred from one side of the border to the other. I think that is very important to put on the record. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we have made it very clear too that the consultation that is part of the strategy itself will continue. This act commits the Govern- ment and future governments to engaging in consul- tation with Manitobans on regulations that will be part of this act. I think that is very important. Let me make it very clear, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we are also establishing the Manitoba Water Council. This legislation will give us the ability through this council to have, I think, an ongoing in- put similar to what we have seen with the steering committee.

It is part of the water strategy which has provided a lot of excellent input. That steering com- ittee, by the way, has representation from across the province. It represents many, if not all, of the key stakeholders that are involved in terms of water plan- ning. We are going to establish a stewardship fund. This is a partnership fund that we plan on working very closely with other levels of government on, with NGOs, with the private sector. We want to make sure we have the financial resources there to do the kind of research and the kind of creative community work that is going to make this strategy work.

I want to point to some of the very good projects that we have seen through the sustainable develop- ment initiative, for example, or the Climate Change Fund. I look to my colleague the Minister of Conser- vation (Mr. Struthers) wh o I am sure could outline many of the very worthy community-based projects that have put the issues of sustainable development and climate change first and foremost, not only on our agenda but on the community agenda. So that is a very important part of this. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to stress again this is a very important act because it commits us to watershed based planning across the province. We have already made some very significant moves in this direction with the appointment of the Lake Win- nipeg Stewardship Board. We have committed to an action plan to reduce nutrient levels to 1970 levels. We are going to extend that kind of a planning ap- roach throughout the province. I want to put on the record that very early on we are going to look at some of the other major lakes in our province, such as Lake Manitoba.

We will be looking at other lakes where we have established advisory committees already in terms of fisheries and other issues, such as Lake Winnipegosis. We will certainly be looking at the Assiniboine River. I want to put that on the record as well. I do not want to limit that. There is provision in this act for planning that will include all areas of this province. In fact I have already indicated we will be putting together a Split Lake advisory board. There are many issues that affect northern Manitoba that will be dealt with.

That planning process will most definitely consult and include conservation districts. I think they are a very important component of the future of planning in this province. They will include First Nations. They will include Northern Affairs com- munities. They will include municipalities through- out the province. I want to note the AMM has been very vocal on the need for this kind of legislation. KAP has been very much a part of the steering committee and many of the discussions. First Nations have been part of

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 the discussions. We believe this is the approach because, quite frankly, if you look at the sources of the impact on water quality in this province, it is not one sector, not another sector. It is not munici- palities. It is not any particular individual source. It is 1.1 million sources. That is how many Manitobans there are. If you look at the case of nutrient overload on Lake Winnipeg, we are also dealing with our friends and neighbours in the United States.

They are upward of 30 percent of th e source of nutrients, or Alberta and Saskatchewan, through the Assiniboine River, impacting again in terms of that. That is why we want to take our vision to all of our friends and neighbours, recognizing how much of North Ameri- ca drains through our rivers and lakes. We are very much committed to that. I want to put on the record just briefly that this act does not stand in isolation. This act is part of this Government's agenda to protect water in this prov- ince.

I mentioned earlier some of the initiatives, and I just want to reference again the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board. I want to point out that when it came to The Drinking Water Safety Act, we not only acted by bringing in the legislation, we proclaimed all but one very small

section of the bill. We brought in 12 new drinking water inspectors. That is very important. We banned bulk removal from this province. We have strongly opposed the Devils Lake outlet. We have established a riparian tax credit. This legislation specifically references the importance of protecting riparian areas. We have established a tax credit already which is the first step toward achieving this goal. We brought in tighter regulations for septic tanks. Our regulations in terms of septic tanks went back to the 1930s.

We have recognized that we have to use newer approaches in terms of septic tanks and septic fields. We have to look at the increased under- standing of the impact that improper septic tanks and septic fields can have on the environment. We brought in those regulations. They are in place. We have strengthened the regulations for livestock oper- ations. That is very important to note as well. We have adopted the Clean Environment Com- mission's recommendations to improve the waste water treatment in the city of Winnipeg and the city of Brandon.

I want to put on the record that, for 10 years, the CEC was supposed to look at the waste water facilities of the city of Winnipeg. It took this Government, my predecessor, the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Lathlin), to refer that matter, as Minister of Conservation, to the CEC.

What came out of the hearings, what this Gov- ernment has adopted, is, instead of a 50-year plan to eliminate the joint sewer system in the city of Winnipeg which results in between 35 and 40 raw sewage spills a year into the Red River, we have now, thanks to the CEC hearings and the com- mitment of the Government, reduced that to 20 years. In fact, we are hoping, by working in partner- ship with the City of Winnipeg, to even reduce it beyond that. What is also important, under the CEC, we now have in place a nutrient removal require- ment.

The City of Winnipeg, over the next three years, is going to be removing nutrients, being part of the solution when it comes to the Red River and Lake Winnipeg. I commend them for those efforts. I also want to note, with the City of Brandon, the Maple Leaf hearings, which looked at the second shift in terms of Maple Leaf, I want to put on the record that the proposal that came out of the CEC, the recommendation of the CEC which we again adopted in principle, will, and this is not an oxy- moron, result in better quality waste water treatment than currently exists.

I want to put on the record again that the previous government did not refer the original plant to the CEC. I believe, as was the case, sadly, in many other areas, it resulted in substandard requirements in terms of regulations that were put in place for that facility. We cannot do that any longer. We have acted. I want to mention that we have improved flood protection. I will have much more opportunity to talk about this, but, following '97, the then-government, and our Government subsequently, recognized the need to improve the situation in terms of flood pro- ection. Yes, we are expanding the floodway.

I will have much more opportunity to talk about this in upcoming legislation, but that is an important part of our agenda. We are going to use the time-honoured tradition that we have followed in terms of hydro developments. We have a long track record. You have to go back to the Roblin administration before Conserva- tives have any experience of building very much in this province, but we are actually going to do what Duff Roblin did in terms of the way we focus in on that.

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 * (15:10) Imagine that. We are going to use the same model that Duff Roblin used in terms of hydro development. I say to members opposite, we will discuss this later in terms of the floodway, but we are going to deliver on it. I think it is interesting that an NDP government is continuing Duff Roblin's vision for Manitoba when it comes to the floodway. I do not know what happened to the current Conservative Party, but I have a great deal of respect for Duff Roblin. I just imagine what he thinks of some of the comments that members opposite make.

I want to put on the record that we are very, very proud of our agenda, but we have only just begun. We believe that one of the key challenges for this generation is not just to slow down any deterioration in terms of water quality. I want to make it very clear that we still have relatively good quality in our lakes and rivers, relatively good. We are not Lake Erie yet. We do not have a dying lake in Lake Winnipeg or other lakes across this province, but our lakes are under stress.

Members opposite know that if we do not deal with it–[interjection] The Agriculture critic will have lots of opportunity to get up on this bill and tell Manitobans if he supports acting on water quality protection in this province. I would suggest to the member, who seems to have selective hearing on issues, I will note that when I announced the Lake Winnipeg Action Plan we indicated that Lake Win- nipeg was under stress and that we want to make sure it does not become a dying lake or a dead lake.

Members opposite may have not thought that was important enough in terms of a public agenda, but I want to tell you that I have had the opportunity to talk to Manitobans from across this province. As minister of this brand-new department, another major initiative of this Government, talking to Manitobans across this province, I want to say that everyone in this province that I have talked to shares the concern about protection of water quality. It does not matter if you are in northern Manitoba or rural Manitoba or in our urban areas, we all know how important this is to our lifestyle.

It is part of our identity even. It is critical in terms of the growing of food. It is critical in terms of many economic activities. Water, in and of itself, is an important aspect of our great diversity of ecosystems in this province. I do not think you will find too many other juris- dictions in the world where you can go from prairie to arctic tundra, where you can have a seaport, where you can have the 10th largest freshwater lake, and you can have some of the most diverse ecosystems anywhere, our streams, our rivers and our lakes, each one of them unique in that sense.

That is our challenge because we want not only to slow down any impacts that we have seen in the last number of years in terms of water quality, we want to reverse it, and there are some encouraging signs. I mentioned with the Maple Leaf hearings, using new technology, the proposal there that has been adopted by the CEC and by Government will reduce the impacts in terms of waste water. It will actually improve the quality of waste water. We have seen that.

We have seen with new processes now in the city of Winnipeg in terms of waste that we are going to reduce the impact on Lake Winnipeg in terms of not only raw sewage but in terms of nutrients. We have seen through the septic field legislation that we can reduce the impact, in this case, of cottaging or residential development. There are many other exam- ples of using better scientific knowledge, of using, in some cases, better technology, in some cases better planning that can deal with it. We will, I want to put on the record, work with Manitobans. I want to finish with one basic comment, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and that is that I really do believe that we are the stewards of this great province in our lifetime in this province. We are stewards of this tremendous diversity that has been granted to us, demographically very diverse, and geographically. I do believe that we can, as Manitobans, by working together, ensure that we steward our water resources, our tremendous inheritance, and can leave it in better quality. I think Manitobans are up to that challenge. That is our vision collectively as a province. It is our vision as a government and I urge all members of the Legislature to support this bill.

I think it is one of the most important acts that I have seen introduced in the Manitoba Legislature, The Water Protection Act. I would hope that in something as fundamental and as important as this we can all support this act and get on with the job of preserving and protecting Manitoba's water. Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 Emerson (Mr. Penner), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to DEBATE ON CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bill 7–The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act Mr. Deputy Speaker: Resume debate on con- currence and third reading on Bill 7, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Mr. Mackintosh, The Cri- minal Property Forfeiture Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik). Are we agreed that it will remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet? [Agreed] Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): I would like to get up and say a few words in regard to Bill 7, The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, that was intro- duced by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh). In looking at the perspective of this bill, I think the overall perception is that the proceeds of crime and criminal activity should not be used in the expansion of crime or the proceeds used to pay for the crime. I think, in principle, it has the effect that people would accept this.

If there are proceeds from crime that are being utilized, they should be forfeited to the Crown or they should be forwarded to the police so that they can be utilized in other manners. I believe this is the intent by the Minister of Justice to bring this report. In looking at the bill itself, we have to look at the parameters that, after paying for expenses, are related to the forfeiture of sale of property. The balance of the sale would be paid to the victims' assistance fund to support victim services or crime prevention programs.

In essence, those are laudable directives and initiatives to look forward to with this bill. The goal of The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act is to ensure that crime does not pay, and this is what the Minister of Justice mentioned when he introduced the bill.

I think everybody would agree to that, that crime does not pay and that it is not to be utilized to further action against individuals or crimes against property. * (15:20) The minister goes on to say that if this bill is passed it will help keep criminals from financing future activities and reduce the return on their invest- ment in the form of human misery in our com- munities. First, it would get at the roots of the prob- lem by ensuring that organized crime does not pay. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair Secondly, it would make it more difficult for gang members to hide their ill-gotten assets while applying for legal aid at the expense of the taxpayers. I think we have seen a fair amount of coverage in the paper a while ago in regard to the utilization of legal aid for defence in regard to gangs and gang members that have become increasingly more evident here in our province. I should mention something that is becoming more and more prevalent in Winnipeg and in Mani- toba is the increase in gang activity since this Gov- ernment has taken over.

It is something I do not think they are very proud of in some of these statistics that have come out in regard to the headlines we have seen in papers. It is something I do not think any of us are proud of when it talks about the murder capital of Canada, the car theft capital of Canada. These are the areas I think the Department of Justice and the minister should be emphasizing more directly to try to get some sort of solution to it, because not only is it being noticed by the papers but also the people when you are meeting some of your constituents.

I am sure most of us, when we are talk- ing to some of our constituents, this has come up from time to time in some of our consultations and some of our conversations. One of the things that possibly could come out of this bill is a challenge. It has been pointed out that the rights of the individuals may be put into a compromising position because of the passage of this bill. In fact, the former Attorney General of Mani- toba, Mr. Roland Penner, argues that the bill flies in the face of the Charter, said the idea of being inno- cent and proven guilty is not reflected in the bill.

I am sure the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mack- intosh) has done his homework and his due diligence on this bill and is well aware of some of the innu- endoes and some of the p eccadilloes that could be brought up by this bill. I am sure he would have to recognize that in bringing forth these. It is a

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 legitimate concern because it has not only been addressed by the former Attorney General but it has been in editorials in the local papers in some of their assessments of this bill. They talk about the code, the Criminal Code of Canada. They talk specifically about

section 462, and they state that property is forfeited to the state only if the owner has been found guilty of an offence in the court of law. This bill is directed toward the associ- ation of crime and criminal gangs, so there is an interpretive quality that has to be brought into the decision making of the judge when issuing an order or a request for the seizure of assets for forfeiture.

These are some of the things I think will come about through the passage of this bill and, as has been pointed out, it is just a matter for the first lawyer or the first indication that it would be utilized, that there possibly could be a challenge. Again, any type of challenge draws upon the revenues of courts and the revenues of government in defending this challenge. So are we just looking at more monies being spent on the

interpretation and the dragging out of something that, in essence, does have the overall perception of being a direction that, I think, most people would agree with? If you are involved with crime, you should not be able to benefit with the pro- ceeds. It would seem that the constitutional challenge for a lot of the bills that are brought forth, not only here in Manitoba, but throughout Canada, seems to be going through an awful lot of process of chal- lenges because of the

interpretation and the existence of what people's rights are, and how they are inter- preted. Then, with each

interpretation comes a deci- sion. The decision is then brought forth through other jurisdictions, and that

interpretation then has to be brought into consideration when there are decisions to be made. The complexity of law is like they say sometimes, it is like making sausage; you really do not want to see how it is going through, but it comes out that way. The bill, in essence, is something that does have merit, but, at the same time, we bring in the caution- ary notes of where the challenges may come about. As mentioned, the former Attorney General of Manitoba, who was a noted legislator when he sat here in this Chamber, is now involved with the law here in Manitoba and continues to be, as a University of Manitoba law professor. His initial

interpretation is that guilt by association is something we try to avoid at all costs in our system. In my view, it offends the rule of law. His state- ment goes on to say that it is virtually impossible to enforce the law without violating the Charter. As much as the intent is noble in its introduction, Bill 7, are we just opening up another avenue of where there will be challenges,

interpretations and delays, before there is an actual seeing of merit that the bill is going to be producing results, the intended results that it is supposed to? The former Attorney General goes on to say: How are we going to prove the person whose property you now want to take is a member of a gang? I think it is virtually impossible to define a gang in a term that does not offend the freedom of associ- ation, which is guaranteed by the Charter. I guess there is another realm of

interpretation. It is that of who is a member of a gang and how is it distin- guished that this person is a member of the gang. We recognize there is an identity of certain gangs. We are all familiar with the Hells Angels and their bad- ges, if you want to call it, of association, but I am sure there are other so-called gangs that do not have a visible means of identification and they are pos- sibly associated also with crime.

We see just recently here in Winnipeg–well, not only Winnipeg but throughout Manitoba, particu- larly, though, here in Winnipeg–where there has been a seizure of a fair amount of marijuana grow operations that are situated right in very, very afflu- ent neighbourhoods throughout Winnipeg. There seems to be an association, if you read in the papers anyway, that this is an Asian gang that is operating these grow operations.

Now, to the best of my knowledge, I do not know of any type of colour asso- ciation, badge association, or identification that would tell me this person is with an Asian gang, because it is only because of what is mentioned in the newspaper. So because someone says that they are associated with a gang , how does that legitimize that phraseology? I believe there will be some room for inter- pretation with any type of legislation. The minister has said that it has been vetted fairly extensively

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 through his department as to the legality of this piece of legislation, Bill 7. I can only say we would hope as it proceeds through the debate and it goes through the

interpretation through our side of the House and possibly even some of the members from the other side who will speak on the bill that some of these things will be brought forth and mentioned to the minister so there is a recognition that it may not be just sort of a slam-dunk piece of legislation that he has brought forth. * (15:30) I think with any type of legislation there is always the process of

interpretation. This is one of the pieces of legislation that possibly will need a fair amount of

interpretation and understanding before it becomes law. We know because of the Manitoba system that it will be going through committee hear- ings here in the Legislature. I am sure there will be presentations made from interested citizens here in Manitoba as to how they would interpret this Bill 7. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it will be interesting to see whether there is a recognition by the minister, whether there will or will not be room for change or amendments to the legislation.

Through the hearing process a lot of times there is perspective brought in by other areas that are not in consideration when the minister is making up the bill. There are areas that are not covered by legislators like ourselves who are debating the bill. There are professionals and inter- preters of the law who will come forth and may have some very, very legitimate concerns and directions that possibly the minister or his staff have not con- sidered. They may be addressed at that time at the committee hearing. So it does have that opportunity. The bill is new. It is profound in its effect here in Canada.

In fact, I believe it is one of the first of its kind in Canada. I would have to check on that to be definite, but I believe when it was introduced it was one of the first of some of the most stringent laws here in Canada. It is a continuation of a lot of the things that were brought forth by the Gary Filmon government, where we brought in tougher and tougher laws in regard to law and order and some of the other areas that we were involved with.

This Government has seen wise to continue on those courses of adapting a lot of the initiatives that were brought forth by the attorneys general that were under the prior Con- servative government and the leadership of the former Premier, Premier Filmon. So I commend the Government for its direction in some of its law and order bills and the direction it is going. The bill, as mentioned, opens up an awful lot of areas of

interpretation, but with any type of legis- ation I guess that is part of getting a thorough cleansing or a thorough reckoning of

definitions within the bill. So the bill itself is something we look forward to going further into various other debates with some of the other members in the Chamber here. There are other areas that people want to talk about. As I say, there is a fair amount of discussion that will come about because of the bill. The idea this has brought forth I think has been prompted by our side of the House because of our concern for the rising crime statistics that are happening here in Manitoba, in Winnipeg. Being an urban MLA, I have seen this in my own constituency, to a degree.

I have had con- versations with a fair amount of people who are concerned about the safety and security in their com- munities. I know the City of Winnipeg is doing a very good job with its police force and its areas of con- centration of trying to combat crime. It does have the gang units. I noticed this afternoon in Question Period the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) an- nounced some additional funding for the City of Winnipeg, in the sense of moving some monies that are collected through fines and directing it to the City of Winnipeg.

I believe he said to the City of Winnipeg police force, that was, I think, about $1.3 million. I will have to wait for Hansard tomorrow to make the exact amount. I believe that was a good initiative. I think those are some of the things that are worthy of note, if there is an avenue or revenue stream that the City is enjoying, new funding if you want to call it. I guess the photo radar and the red- light cameras do afford the Province some extra revenue.

There is a certain amount of those fines that are paid by individuals who get caught going through red lights, or get caught for speeding, that does go into the provincial coffers. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) is now saying that money that is

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 directed through fining, that is realized because of fines, that is generated through the provincial government, is being redirected to the police, I commend him for that. I think that is an excellent way to help the City of Winnipeg police force in its commitment to try to make Winnipeg a safer place. I do not know whether any additional funding is going to any other areas in the City of Winnipeg for crime prevention or for any other type of events like that.

I will watch and listen intently for the minister's press release on this partic ular announcement that he made in the House today. If it is money that is out of the fines that are being generated, that is a wonderful way to utilize that fund and have it directed toward the proceeds to offset the criminal activity here in Winnipeg. Whether it is through additional police forcing or communications, or staffing, those are some of the areas that I think are well needed and recognized by a lot of people here in Winnipeg.

The bill will also, as mentioned, take into account the proceeds of crime that are being seized or forfeited. I would ask the minister, or question the min- ister, if it is seized by a federal authority, by the RCMP working here in Winnipeg, whether that for- feiture would go to the provincial Crown or the fed- eral government? My understanding is if the seizure is made by the RCMP then those proceeds go to the federal government and do not come to the Province. I may be wrong on that, but that is my

interpretation, my understanding of it. We hear a lot about the seizures at the Manitoba border of drugs that are coming through Ontario, through Falcon Lake through the weigh scale. Some of those numbers are fairly astounding when you look at millions of dollars that are being captured at the border, if you want to call it, or confiscated at the border by the RCMP. My understanding is that a lot of that money does not flow to the Province but goes to the feds.

I would think if that is the case then something should be done about it because the only reason they are stopping is because of the Manitoba govern- ment's weigh scales. They are the ones that really are alerting the police to the fact there could be con- traband in those vehicles. If the Province is not get- ting its share of the proceeds or the cash that is seized then I would think the Attorney General has some heavy-duty lobbying to do with the federal government. I think some of the grow operations are also getting to be quite extensive. As I mentioned earlier, there are quite a few here in Winnipeg.

In the rural areas, too, there are a fair amount that are happening in some of the outlying areas that the RCMP have raided and confiscated. Those are some of the things we will have to be very, very careful of. * (15:40) The other concern, too, is the fact that federally, I understand the federal government is looking at softening the marijuana laws for the possession of marijuana. What that is going to do is open up another area of concern, because the legislation the federal government is bringing forth is going to make it easier for people to be involved with small amounts of marijuana. Then it is the

interpretation of the police who are going to be faced with additional work as to who and what is the amount that is going to be criminally indictable, I guess, you might want to call it. The police work is going to be unending in a lot of these areas as to how far they can go in the

interpretation, and, I guess, to a degree of frustration of trying to recognize where the legality of a lot of this comes about. As I mentioned, it revolves around the word of

interpretation. When you have laws be- ing made and you have lawyers and you have the Justice Department all revolving around the inter- pretation of what they feel is right, the one thing we have to ensure is that the individual rights of the person are protected because of our Constitution and the bill of rights. As much as there is the apparent recognition that the proceeds of crime should not be utilized for the sake of continuing a criminal activity, unfortunately we are in a society that does have a bill of rights that does protect the individuals.

As I mentioned before, the professor at the Uni- versity of Manitoba, the former Attorney General, Roland Penner, has pointed this out quite dramatical- ly in an

article that was in the paper not that long ago when the bill was first brought forth or was first contemplated by the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh). A lot of these things ar e of concern. They are brought forth by myself as areas that possibly should

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 be looked at when the minister is considering the final draft of the bill, when it goes before committee, when there is discussion being formed around his own caucus. His own caucus members bring forth these concerns. I am sure he would look at them. We will continue to debate the bill in a sense of trying to bring these to the minister's attention. I am sure a lot of these things are something that he would be aware of anyway. Mr.

Speaker, those are some of the things I just wanted to bring forth in regard to the legislation of Bill 7, The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act.

I think, in overall perspective of th e bill, it is a continuation along the lines of what we, as a government, when we were in government under Premier Filmon and the former attorneys general, that law and order and the protection of people here in Manitoba are of primary concern and that the introduction of legis- lation to protect individuals or to make sure there is a reckoning of the laws that are being brought forth are adhered to and that there is not a flaunting of indi- viduals by hiding around the fact of

interpretation in regard to the law. This piece of legislation may be going down that road of

interpretation, and that type of

interpretation does cause delays. It does cause anxiety. It does cause delays in the sense of finalization of some court cases. It can delay the finalization of monies that were realized. It can delay the

interpretations that people who are looking for restitution can come about, and we would be concerned that some of these things may come about. So, with those words, Mr. Speaker, I will sit down now. I believe there are some of my other colleagues who would like to speak on this bill. Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member from Lakeside– Mr. Speaker: Order. If there are no other speakers, this bill has already been agreed to stand? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: So, if there are no other speakers? An Honourable Member: No. Mr.

Speaker: Okay, when this matter is again before the House, this bill will remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik). Bill 8–The Employment and Income Assistance Amendment Act (One-Tier Assistance for Rural and Northern Manitoba) Mr. Speaker: Now, we will move on. Resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms.

Melnick) concurrence and third reading of Bill 8, The Employment and Income Assistance Amend- ment Act (One-Tier Assist ance for Rural and North- ern Manitoba), standing in the name of the honour- able Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there agreement for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa? [Agreed] Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): It is my pleasure to stand and add some comments to the debate on the third reading on Bill 8, The Employ- ment and Income Assistance Amendment Act. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to go back in history a little bit and indicate that I was the minister of Family Services when we moved to a one-tier in- come assistance program in the city of Winnipeg. It took several years and a lot of negotiation and good will on behalf of both levels of government to come to an understanding around the benefits of a one- tiered system in Winnipeg. At the time of the dis- cussions and the negotiations, certainly we did speak to those outside of the city of Winnipeg in cities and rural municipalities around options to move to a one- tier system outside of the city. At the time, Mr.

Speaker, I believe it was still the UMM, not the AMM, when we were having those discussions that indicated, at that time, there was no desire on their part to move to a one-tier sys- tem. They felt that, as municipalities, they had closer links and closer ties to the issues and the people within their community and that they were best able to deliver the social assistance program to the em- ployable caseload and to couples without children. Those are the two groups that are impacted or affected by the one-tiered employment and income assistance programs.

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 8, 2004 Mr. Speaker, we moved cautiously and with much care to implement the system in the city of Winnipeg, and certainly, up front, offered to amal- gamate the staff from the City of Winnipeg that had delivered the service previously under their juris- iction to move. Those individuals who had the desire to move over to the Province, we offered them jobs and the opportunity to be a part of the new system.

Some came over on a temporary basis and found that it was not something they wanted to do and had the option of returning to the employ of the City of Winnipeg, as was negotiated. I think it has worked well in Winnipeg. Certainly, the rationale or the rea- soning behind moving to a one-tier system was to have some standards in place to ensure there were not two levels of bureaucracy dealing with the social assistance program and that there was some con- sistency, not only in the salaries for the employees but in the services and supports that were available to social allowance recipients.

Along with that change to the one-tier system came, certainly, a stronger focus on work expecta- tions, that if people were single and considered or deemed employable there was some expectation placed upon them, at the time we amalgamated to one-tier in Winnipeg, that they would take jobs that were available. At the time of the implementation of the one-tier system, there were many companies begging for peo- ple to work. There were job opportunities posted on billboards and in front of businesses indicating: Now hiring, we have opportunity for people for employ- ment. Yet, Mr.

Speaker, we had significantly high cases of single employable welfare recipients, social assistance recipients, that needed to be addressed and looked at. So, Mr. Speaker, work expectations were placed on individuals and we changed the whole focus of how we delivered our employment and income as- sistance programs. If there were job opportunities available, people were expected to take those jobs. We went into a focus of pre-intake interviews asking people to look for, and offering them a list of, job opportunities that were available.

They were ex- pected, if at all possible, to take those jobs before they were enroled in the program. * (15:50) We saw significant decreases in the caseloads as a result of a very strong focus. Our approach to employment and income assistance, of course, was to make sure those who needed the support, single par- ents and the disabled, certainly were treated differ- ently than the single employable caseload. I think our approach, and our philosophy as a party, would be providing a hand up to individuals, not a hand out.

That was a departure from what the former adminis- tration–or the approach that the administration before our government took. Mr. Speaker, I think it was successful. I think today, still, as a result of the strict implementation of work expectations, we see the Government reaping the benefits, and the social assistance caseloads are down considerably from the time when we first came into government. I am pleased and I am proud that we did move in this direction. Mr. Speaker, I look today and just even today to Question Period and some of the questions we asked about hydro rates increasing by next April.

A year from now Manitobans will be expected to pay an extra 7.5 percent on their hydro bills as a result of this Government's initiative. I look at how that may impact our social assistance caseloads. They are on a very limited amount of money, and they certainly have not seen 7.5% increases in their welfare rates, but they are going to be expected to pay out 7.5% more on their hydro bills as a result of decisions this Government has made to take money out of Hydro, over $200 million that has been taken from Hydro. We will see the poorest members in our society suffer the most.

In many of the accommodations that are avail- able for those on fixed incomes, Mr. Speaker, like social assistance recipients, the heat in their accom- modations is electric heat. Not only are they going to be paying on their light bills, but they are going to be paying on their heating bills an additional 7.5 percent. I want to indicate this is not the kind of thing that was taken into consideration, I am sure, by this Government when they so recklessly raided the coffers of Manitoba Hydro and in essence penalized Manitobans.

Those who are the poorest will be the ones who will suffer the most under this policy by this Government. I think the whole exercise in moving to a one- tier employment and income assistance program has

March 8, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 been positive in many respects in the city of Winnipeg. It is only a natural progression that it should move to rural Manitoba and to cities outside of the city of Winnipeg. I know the Government today has been listening to and consulting with Manitobans. I know AMM has been supportive of this initiative. I will, as I get into my comments, certainly raise some of the issues. I am not sure there is universal 100% support for this direction.

I think munici- palities in rural Manitoba, the cities outside of the city of Winnipeg, are indicating they do not neces- sarily today have the expertise in order to deliver the programs. They would like to see a fairer process under a one-tier system. I would hope the Government today has gone through the process of negotiation as we did when we moved in Winnipeg to the one-tier system and has finalized, so there is not any fear in the minds of municipalities that they are going to be gouged or going to be expected to pay more than what is com- mon sense under revenue neutrality.

I am not sure this Government has done their homework. I am not sure municipalities and cities outside the city of Winnipeg have the same comfort level they should have that this Government does not have some sort of a hidden agenda and that when the negotiations are finalized they will find out they are paying more than what they thought they would be paying under a cost-neutral, one-tier system. I just want to read into the record certainly some comments that have been made by municipalities and by cities that might lead us to want to watch very carefully how this legislation is implemented.

I know the majority of municipalities, as has been articulated by AMM, are supportive. You know what? They have received mixed messages from this Govern- ment. They received mixed messages when letters went out to the employees who are presently work- ing for municipalities telling them they would have to apply through a competitive process to get the new jobs that would be created at the Province to deliver the employment and income assistance program. When the Government was questioned, I think they have backed down a little bit from that position.

They have indicated they will make every effort now to try to accommodate employees who formerly worked for municipalities. There is the level of distrust, Mr. Speaker, beca use they have received two different messages from this Government and they have done basically a flip-flop on the issue. Mr. Speaker, municipalities just still are not quite sure whether they can trust this Government in this province to be fair to the employees who are presently there. That was one of the biggest issues when we moved to a one-tier system in the city of Winnipeg.

We ironed out all of those issues before we implemented any legislation, and I fear that has not been done by this Government as they move forward. I know employees in the City of Winnipeg, some of them did come over to work for the Province, but decided after the fact that it was not really what they wanted to do, and they had an opportunity to go back and to work for the City of Winnipeg. I am not sure whether those arrangements have been negotiated and have been made in this situation. I think it is critical that people are treated humanely and that they have some understanding of what their future might hold.

So I hope the Government will try to assure that the details are worked out before they proclaim and implement this legislation. Mr. Speaker, there really is no reason for two levels of government to deliver the same program. I mean, social assistance is so mething that really is, in many instances, a provincial responsibility. We were very disheartened when we were in government. We know that prior to, I believe it was 1992 or 1993, the federal government picked up a significant portion of the costs of social assistance to those who had moved off of reserve and into ou r cities.

All of a sudden, with the stroke of a pen and an announcement, the federal government withdrew their financial support for First Nations people m oving off of reserve into the cities. It became a total provincial responsibility to pick up those costs. There were significant costs to the Treasury of the Province of Manitoba as a result. * (16:00) We have never forgotten that but we also do know

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c42fb98f062fea95b8a7bc97d98c9005180fcd73

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