VOL. 3 . !· .. PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE'OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 7, 19]8 NO. 82

!· June 7, 1978 Tape 4074 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, .P 1 ease! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. PK - l MR: W. 'HOUSE: Mr. Speaker,some _!;ime ago in response to a question, I 1ndicated that we would be setting up a Committee on S!=hool Board Financing. I am pleased to announce the formation of the Commit!ee no~' comprised of representatives from government and school boards, the Denominational Education Committee and The School Tax Authorities.

And they are going to examine the'_cn.st of funding a basic educational orooramme in relation to existing government grants. That concerns school busing and the existing grant. As part of its overall terms of reference,the Committee 1vill also examine the role of School Tax Authorities and their effectiveness in assisting school boards in financing their programmes. The commitment, of course, to establish such a committee was announced by the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech,March 17, The Comm.ittee is made up of the followin(l neople from the Department rf Education Mr. Sansome; Mr.

Riggs from Treasury Board; Mr. Ed Kent, Mr. Bellamy and Mr. Frank janes from the Confederation of School Boards; Or: Tracey from the·Denominational Educational Committee; and Mr. William Moores from the School Tax Autho.rities. In establishing this Committee, of course, we recognize that there may be inequities in the present funding arrangements and these need to be resolved. Of course, they have been worked on for a couple of years prior to this.

The Committee will be working in close co-operation with the Task Force, and there haw> t-een discussions with the Task Force in the settin9 uo of this Committee - that 1•1as earlier announced, · Of course, the TasK Force will examine the effect of declining enrollments. It is .. expected that the_ report from this particular Committee will be made to Treasury Board by the end of the calendar year.

~· .. June 7, 1978 Tape 4074 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House hav.e often questioned the effectiveness of the School Tax Authorities in this Province. The Authorities themselves are not the same across the Province, indeed there are great discrepancies in the amount of money that they bring into various areas of the Province.

For instance, the School Tax Authorities in rural areas do not bring nearly as much money to the rural areas as do the School Tax Authorities in areas where the economy is much better, and in areas where there are more prosperous businesses and that sort of thing. I believe there must be an attempt made to equalize the contrihutions made by School Tax Authorities.

But even with that, I think.- the whole question of School Tax Authorities should be looked into, whether it is proper to have School Tax Authorities in this Prov·ince at all, since the burP.aucracy which surrounds many of the School Tax Authorities, I feel. ·-negates much of the good that they do. And we have often said that we feel that the finances should come from the general revenue of the Province. However, I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that we welcome this particular body, this group, and we feel that they should look into all aspects of school financing, including whether School Tax Authorities are effective and whether they should be done away ~·i th or not. MR. SPEAKER: The ho~. the t'.ini~t~>r ~: l='i~h,:>r1,~. ~R. NEARY: Today is not Friday. AN HON. MEMBER: It mu~t he .PriviltP M~>mh<>r~' n?.". MR. W. CARTER: , :~r. Speaker, I want to tab 1 e a copy of a te 1 egram that I have today sent the hon. Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

LeBlanc, concerning recent action taken by the minister and his deoartment with respect to the issuance of shrimp licences off the ~lorthern-at least. the Coast of Labrador. Maybe I will take the time of the House, Mr .

I''· • June 7, 1978 Tape 4074 PK - 3 Mr. W. Carter: Speaker, to summarize the contents of the telegram. The telegram reads --as fo-llows: "As Minister of Fisheries for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador I protest the proposed issuance to Mainland firms of six shrimp licences valid for shrimp stocks located solely off the Coast of Labrador and Northeast Newfoundland.

I am sure you realize that the fisheries and other living resources of the waters adjacent to our Province· had historically provided the economic and social basis for life in this Province, and that the Coast of Labrador and the Northeast Coast are particularly so dependent. That historical and totally dependency was,as you are well aware, the main moral basis on which Canada justified its unilateral 200 mile declaration and the key argument which, as it c·ould not be refuted, forcect :the distant water fishing nations to accede ·to Canada's demand for a 200 mile limit.

It is thus ironic to say the least to find that while the historic special interest of these communities can act as the t-11~is of rights on the International level,they do not form the main c+teria upon which the federal government's policY. as to the allocation of licences for shrimp and other species is based.

June 7,1978 Tape No. 407 5 AH-1 HR. W.CARTER: "It is doubly ironic that your statement indicated that such a principle might be applied but only to the allocation of any additional licences which might be issued in subsequent years. "You realize, of course, that employment opportunities on the coast of Labrador and in places like St. Anthony on the Northeast Coast are very limited. The unemployment statistics confirm in grim · eloquence that fact far better than I could.

Naturally the people of these coasts have looked forward to the restoration of cod stocks and the development of new species of fisheries to provide much needed employment, IIConsequently, you must understand the bit-ter I disappointment which we in this Province felt and, I am sure, which was felt p~rticularly in St.

Anthony when we learnt that out of eight active licences, it is proposed that six be issued to other than Newfoundland firms without any conditions being attached to such licences as to the requirement to hire crew members locally or to land their catches for processing in communities on the Coast of Labrador and the Northeast coast of our Province. It Horeover I the method by which these licences I which. as you say will provide lucrative returns to their holders, are being allocated is secretive and arbitary. This process makes no attempt to be a public process using known objective and fair citeria.

Horeover, your decision in this matter is not open to review in any manner nor was the input of residents of any of the communities along the Coast of Labrador and the Northeast coast, much less the ~overnment of this Province,sought. "This process is, of course, in strong contrast to the procedures by which, let us say, a radio licence is obtained from the CRTC or even a common carrier trucking licence under Provincial Public Utilities Boards.

This is evidence, I suggest, that the development of our administrative procedures have not kept pace ~ith the expansion of government regulations of· the fisheries, particularly

June 7,1978 Tape No. 4075 AH-2 :·!R, W. CARTER: with regard to licencing. ''Surely the procedures relating· to the allocation of a licence, the acquisition of which can have the most direct and profound impact upon a fishermen, should be subject to the same sort of administrative review and public input as is traditionally and correctly applied to a whole host of other decisions by government. "The present system stands condemned as arbitary and paternalistic,nor does it reflect the vital role which the people and government of this Province have a moral, if not legal, right to play in such decisions.

"As a prime example of this I might point out that if there. had been an open and continuous process of consultation on ·the allocation of these licences, I am sure that they would have been able to help Labrador residents to acquire vessels so that the three Labrador licences could be used this Suminer cmd would no doubt have seen a processor gearing up to process shrimp at a plant on the Labrador coast this Summer. Now that opportunity has passed. "In view of this I·ask, in the strongest possible terms, that you do either of the following:

(1) Cancel your plans to ::.ssue six shrimp li~ences to other than Newfoundland firms; or

(2) If you have proceeded too far to accede to (1) above, attach conditions to such six mainland licences to ensure that the crews in question come from, and that all catches must be processed on the Coast of Labrador and the Northeast Coast so that the communities on these coasts can derive economic benefits from the exploitation of a fisheries resource in which,based on their historical, economic, and social dependency, they have a strong moral right and special interest.

"I know, of course, that as far as the general licencing question is concerned you yourself did not .institute the present method of licencing. Rather, it ·is· a s·ystem that has not kept pace with fishermen and was originally justified on the basis of the limited harvesting

June 7,1973 Tape No. 4075 AH-3 NR.W.CARTER: potential of certain species and has not been offset by procedures protecting the interests ·of the individual. 11 I submit that this situation must be corrected and that the new syst"em must further recognize the right of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, local and uegional groups within this Province to have

·" June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4076 NM - 1 HR. W. CARTER: a real say in such important decisions as the allocation of licences, decisions which in essence determine if a man or even an entire community, will have the means to earn a livelihood in a decent and self reliant manner. I raise these issues more in sorrow than in anger and assure you that I am ready to• ~~ork with you to achieve a ne1~ fair and workable method of allocating licences." Hr.

Speaker, that is the text of a telegram that I have sent today to the minister in Ottawa and I should point out that I am sure all hon. members know by now that Fishery Products 9 and it is a company that ~~as looking forward with great expectations to establishing a shrimp processing . plant in St. Anthony on the basis of that new found stock, have today announced their intentions to put aside their plans in that regard and to try to make do with existing processing capability the company has in other parts of the Island.

I have not got the exact figures but I have been told that H will have a very serious social and economic impact on that part of our Province. And I contend, Xr. Speaker, that that shrimp stock, found as it was in an area to which we have historic and traditional rights, if properly developed, and had the Province of Newfoundland been given its rights,- could have had the effect of transfo.rming the entire economy of the Great Northern Peninsula, and I suggest to you would have put it on a par 1nth the prosperity that we enojoy· today on the Burin Peninsula. Thank you, very much. SOME RON. !!EMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: · Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the . member ·for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) has kindly

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4076 NH - 2 MR. STRACHAN: conceded to me to reply to the statement since it involves the shrimp fishery off the Labrador Coast on the Hawkes Channel, thirty-five miles off Cartwright and sixty-five miles on the Hopedale Saddle, which ~1as discovered~ thP. Northern ones)· last year, In essence,of course,we cannot but agree with the statement made by the minister, although there are some points which we feel must be raised since they have been raised earlier on by the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) in discussing the situation, and by Gus Etche~ary also who has raised this question concerning licences. I, myself, believe absolutely that if a new species is discovered, a species for which the technology is not available locally, then there must be sufficient time to put into place locally the technology and· the expertise and the training and the processing so that locally we.can get that on a regional basis. I also object similarly that licences for a ne~~ species can be handed out to other provinces.

Initially I think that if we default in not making use of that licence, if we default in not getting into that type of fishery, then ~-1e deserve to lose that licence, we deserve to lose that opportucity. But initially, in the beginning years, I believe 11e must have the opportunity given to us to allow us to get into this and I notice that ·the three Labrador licences are in abeyance until September '79 so the processors there, or people there, can have the opportunity to try to develop it.

However; I would like to ask the minister if he could tell us why now in June '78 we are talking about this kind of a situation between the provincial and federal governments to1hen the shrimp fishery was discovered last year in the Northern· parts- obviously the Hawkes Channel one has been there for quite some time-but in the Northern parts, on the Saddle and off Cartwright

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4076 NM- 3 MR. STRACRAI.'I: the shrimp fishery was discoverd last year and I wonder if the minis'ter could tell us what consultation has gone on prior to this time on that shr~~p fishery between the Province and the federal government? I would imagine there has been some consul tat ion on that. basis. /.nd seconcily, I wonder that his paragraph, the third last paragraph,! think is correct, where he has stated here that the minister himself is not concerned with the general licence in question since it was brought in previously.

I wonder whether there has been discussion in changing the whole licencing question on an ongoing basis, I do not mean ad hoc discussions, but an ongoing discussion with Ottawa to change the licencing process, especially as it applies to new species since it is very important that we are given the first opportunity and given it for people on the Labrador Coast where the employment is low and where we can possibly,over a period· of two to thre.e years, get into this kind of technology. So I wonder if the minister could :1ddress himself to that part of it.

I noticed in his last sentence he says he is ready to work with the minister and I wondering whether there has been any work previously done VTith the minister to try to change this or try to get him to come to some different conclusions. I .disagree with the licencing system and I support him totally on that. I disagree wi_th it being given to other provinces and naturally

June 7, 1978 Tape 4077 EC - 1 HR. STRACHAN: almost every Newfoundlander and Labradorian must disagree with new species licences being given away to other provinces who have interests rather than ~o be given to this Province. So I wonder if the minister could answer that question only as to what consultation has gone on before and whether there has been .ongoing consultations on the Labrador shrimp fishery especially since its discovery last Fall. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. tbe Minister of Fisheries. HR. W.

CARTER: We have endeavoured at every possible opportunity, we have used every device at our disposal to impress upon Ottawa the need for closer consultation, for more dialogue in the matter of determining the issuance of licences especially with respect to that shrimp stock. We made it known in no uncertain terms that we supported the efforts of Fishery Products Limited,who ware gearing up in a very meaningful way to be able to harvest and to process that shrimp. HR. NEARY: Who did you make your case known to? MR. W. CARTER: Naturally to the minister. We would not go below the minister in this - !-!R.

NEARY: Any correspondence? HR. W. CARTER: I do no% have it her~, but we have it. We have gone on record, of course. The matter of licence generally, we have indicated·to Ottawa that we are not satisfied with the method employed. It is arbitrary. The rights of the individual are not protected~ There is very little redress open to a fisherman or to a fish company that has

June 7, 1978 Tape 4077 EC - 2 HR. W. CARTER: applied to our licence\, and we believe that that is almost in contradiction of the rights of our people. And certainly ~e are prepared to work with Ottawa to assist in every way possible to bring about the necessary changes in that system. HR. LUNDRIGAN: order, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: HR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement by the minir.ter and the unanimity of feeling on the issue as expressed by the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan), I wonder would it be in order to suggest that the House Leaders get together and draft a resolution w.hich could be put b~fore the House, which could be forwarded to the Minister of External Affairs, the Minister of Fisheries, the leaders of the various parties at the federal level, expressing the unanimity of feeling by this Legislature against th~ system of licencing which has such a detrimental and long term implication for the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! To that point of order i•lr. Speaker. The hon. the member for LaPoile.

Mr.S~eaker, we would be very happy to consider that, providing the provincial Hinister of Fisheries, Sir, will give us all the documentation and backup information that I just asked the han. gentleman if he had. The hon. gentleman confirmed that he had letters - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: No; the hon. gentleman confirmed that he had letters and telegrams in his office, and if the

June 7, 1978 MR. NEARY: AN. HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Tape 4077 EC - 3 hon. gentleman will make these - (Inaudible) - making recommendatiorts in connection with the licences. The minister is telling us this is not the first time that he has made a recommendation to the Minister of Fisheries. Well, if we can have the documentation we will have a look at it and then the House Leader and myself can get together, but we must have the documentation fitst. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) AN HON. MEMBER: What is this, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ both hon. gentlemen.

I do believe that the procedure now has gone far enough. I understand the hon. gentleman was in effect asking for unanimous consent for a certain procedure and the hon. gentleman to my right has made a comment thereon. I am not aware to date that there is unanimous consent. If and when there is, hon. members will inform me and that will be that, but at the moment I am not aware of unanimous consent so I have to continue with the routine orders, the next one being Presenting Petitions. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NE~RY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: 0 0 0 The hon. the member for Ferryland. Oh, oh!

Order; please! Order, please~ Your Honour just made a ruling Order, please! Order! Order! Your Honour just made a ruling, Sir, and then the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), future minister, Sir, shouted across the House tbat we objected to this, that we did not want to do it after Your Honour made a ruling. And, Your Honour, that is misleading, it is unparliamentary, it is.an attack on the Opposition,

June 7, 1978 Tape 4077 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Sir, for something that they did not say or do. The statement that I made, Sir, is that we are prepared to consider giving unanimous consent of the House, providing the minister will give us all the documentation that he ha~ with the minister in connection with this matter. HR.LUNDRIGAN: Why all ·Of it? !!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: We want tti see first what the minister has done. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: You are against it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY:. So the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), Sir- MR.

SPEAKER: If both bon. gentlemen·will please take their seats. This is as far as this procedure is now allowed to go. If and when there is unanimous consent,then bon. members can inform me and until I am aware that there is u'nanimous consent there is nothing further that can be said on it or that I will allow to be said on it, The next routine proceeding is Presenting Petitions. PRESENTING PETITIONS NR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Ferryland~ MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present

June 7, 1978 Tape 4078 PK - l Mr. Power: a petition on behalf of 278 residents of . Ferryland district, also I think some teachers from the District . of St. Mary's - The Capes, which takes in the educational district of Ferryland, which takes in from Bay Bulls to Trepassey. Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition and in signing the petition I support fully the prayer of that petition and in so doing supporting fully the praye~ of the petition. have to disagree with a government policy, a policy of the Department of Education with relationship to teacher cutbacks. Mr.

Speaker, the prayer of the petition reads: We the undersigned make this petition to the members of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.that the government reverts its recently announced decision to cut back on the numbers of teachers in Newfoundland schools. We feel that such a move can only. have a detrimental effect on the quality of education to be offered tci our children; we ask you to reconsider. Mr.

Speaker, as I said signed the oetition, I support the petition fully. have some sincere beliefs. that the new programme in education will cause a severe cutback in the quality of educat1on in our district. The minister himself has acknowledged that the district of.Ferryland,being one of the smallest educational districts in this Province,will be most adversely affected by the new .policy of the department.. The fact that we will lose six teachers out of one hundred and twenty seems to be a very small. amount.

But, in fact, ·when you lose six teachers out of a very small number of teachers in the beginning the effects can actually be very momentoiJS. In the case of Fermuse,-fo~ example~ we now have thirty-five or thirty-seven students of Grade·V and Grade VI in one classroom rather than having two classrooms because the community of Fermuse is losing one of their ·,classroom teachers.

I think that this policy, as the prayer of the petition says, will have a detrimental effect on the quality of education bcith. in Fermuse and Tors Cove and many other smaller schools along our shore.· The minister himself has said that our conditions are

June 7, 1978 Tape 4078 PK - 2 Mr. Power: some~1hat different than the rest of the school boards within the Province· in the sense that we are smaller and bei'ng affected more adversely. I hope that the minister can reconsider, at least for this year, the conditions that are going to take place in Ferryland district. I also hope that the minister when the Task Force report is presented back to government, that he will accept these reports, in particular· as how it relates to the district of Ferryland. I might also add, ~r.

Speaker, and maybe it is a good occasion for me to do so, ·that although I as a government member disagree with this policy of the Department of Education, it does not necessarily mean t~i!t I disagree with the whole Department of Education, or that whole$300 million within the Departnren~ of Education I • . as being wasted and squandered and not being getting some value for our money. I just feel that this segment of education of policy would have a very detrimental effect on our school system. · I might also add, Mr.

Speaker, that I have never seen a department of government move more quickly and effectively than did the Department of Education last week when we had a very great tragedy on our shore when Baltimore High School was burned down, which was a tragedy in itself. But we also had a tragedy in the sense that a great deal of notes, private and personal papers belonging to the students that they were using as sort of a cram course, I suppose, for there exams which will take· place in a week or so, all those notes were lost.

And it was a very difficult situation where one or two students _had notes left, and all the other students needed copies. Through ·the assistance of the Minister of Education and his ·department, and the Minister of Public Works who gave his consent, and certainly the Director of Printing Services and the staff of.Printing Services,the school in Ferryland, the students of Baltimore High School yesterday and today received over 40,000 pages of notes back into that community, simply because of the co-operation

.. June 7, 1978 Tape 4078 PK - 3 ·Mr. Power: of those departments of government. So certainly the last thing want to do is to say that the whole of the Department of Education is wrong, and it does not do things that help our students, because in many cases it does. I just say most sincerely, Mr. Speaker, and to other members of the House that I do believe that the teacher cutbacks were done somewhat hastily.

I think they were done vlithout f!Jll thought of maybe some of the ramifications that were encountered. know that in the district of Ferryland that the quality of education will be somewhat hurt, and I think that it is very sorry thing. I t,ink that is one part of this Province that should not be effected is the quality of education of our young people. I think that when you deal with parents• hopes and aspirations and believes for their childrens future·then it is a very danoerous thing when we have to cutback a small amount of money that r.·iluses sue~ a ~reat effect.

I only hope, as the last line~of the petition says, that the minister will reconsider that when the Task Force is being presented and if a new task force is being set up then some parents will be on that task force, and even some students should be on that task force. have great respect for any of our high school students, and certainly many of them are quite competent to serve on a task force and give their viewpoint back to the Department of Education as to what they should think should happen within the educational system.

Again I say most sincerely to the minister and his department that we as parents in the district of Ferryland,

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4079 NM - 1 HR. C. POHER: as very concerned parents.we hope that the minister can reconsider and he can re-evaulate the very sorry situation that may develop in the school district of Ferryland. Thank you, i·!r. Speaker. ~R. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, I too lvould like to rise and say a fe'" words in support of this petition from a number of residents of Ferryland district and St. Mary's - The Capes also~! believe the han. member mentioned. We have had a great number of petitions presented in this han.

House on this subject of teacher cutbacks during this session and I have received much correspondence from many people all over the Province on this very subject as well 1 the greater proportion of which,by the way, I do not mind saying - well:not the greater proportion but a substantial portion of lvhich comes from the han. member's district and St. Mary's - The Capes district. There seems to be a very strong movement among residents and teachers alike in that area against these cutbacks. I believe my han. friend, the member for Port au Port district (Mr.

Hodder) represented me at a meeting of teachers and residents in that district three or four weeks ago. XR. HODDER: Attended by 400 people, 400 people there. I believe the Hinister of Fisheries lvas there as well and the :·!inister of Education·,and if ·reports are correct, did not receive that great a reception trying tO Sell the government IS prOpOSal tO CUt bacl: teacherS and the quality of education in this Province.

Now, Sir, the fact that this han. member, who obviously rose in all sincerity to present this .petition and support the petition, says that his views diverge, are different from the views of the government on this ~atter~ that is a very serlous matter, Mr. Speaker, and one which I hope lvill be reported

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4079 NH - 2 }!P.. 1-7. ROIVE: t-ridely throughout the Province because this han. gentleman, besides being a member for the district, is also of course the president of the party which this government is for:ned from, the PC Party, and he must have had to search his soul - SO~ HON. }~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. lv. ROIVE: ~-1r. Speaker, can I be spared the ignorance and discourtesy of that han. member over there? Accomplishing nothing, ·Sir, except exposing his lack of courtesy to this House day after day. }1r.

Speaker, this han. member obviously haa co • search his soul and to make up his mind t·a rise publicly in this House and present a petition t-mich he supports and which he states frankly and candidly, •,rithout any attempt to hide his feelings noH at this point, that he supports it and his vieHs diverge from those of the gove~ent. That gives it much more impact, Sir, than one which might be presented by another member of the House .rho does not hold th::~t high official position that he does _in the Party which this government represents.

And, therefore ,I hope that the 1~rongness, the erroneous action, the decision taken in haste ,as he says, and based on 11rong premises, I hope that the people are aware of the fact that he disputes that decision and that action and that the government should in fact reconsider this bacl~ward move in the field of education.

It is also, Sir, before sitting down let me say this, it is also a clear indication of what is happening to· this government and to the party opposite, when on every measure taken by the government, whether it is the spruce budworm, •rhe ther it is education, 1-thether it is something else that yol' can take at random practically, you either see ministers coming up publicly and disputing it, or high party officials,like the member for Ferry land district, coming out and publicly differing from a decision, an action taken by this own government, Mr. Speaker, that

June 7, 1978 Tape ilo. 4079 c!R. W. ROWE: is a clear indication of this government '.s future and the fact that the govenment has lost complete. control over the government of this Province and the administration of the government in Ne,..foundland and Labrador. NH- 3 MR. SPEAKER: MP •• HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Port. !!r. Speaker, I too would like to congratulate the member 'for Ferryland e·!r. C. Pm~er) on his comments on that petition.

For some time now anyone in this House of Assembly,I believe, who has had anything to do with education or has anything to do with education at the present time, knows in their heart and soul that the policies as brought out by the Department of Ed~cation in recent months regarding teacher cutbacks and school board cutbacks and cutbacks at the university, that anyone who has anything to do with education kncws that the Department of Education acted in the member for Ferryland's words "hastily". And, Hr.

Speaker, I had suspected that there would be some on the other side who would question the. policy _of this government in this respect. The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) went close to going against the government on this particular issue when he spoke here in the House sometime ago on a petition, and the member for Ferryland '

.. June 7, 1978 Tape 4080 DH - 1 HR. J. HODDER: (Nr. Power) has now come out and said in no uncertain terms that he dissagrees with the government stand on this particular matter. Notv, Mr~ Speaker, I feel that really from the way that< the government ,and· from the ttay that·: the .~!inister of Education has handled 'this particular matter, the way I have tvatched h:!.m on the stage in various places throughout the Province and I have heard him talk here in the House,and I do not believe either that he believes, }1r.

Speaker, that those particular policies should have been taken and those particular actions should have been taken. Because, Mr. Speaker, the quality of education,and as many of ·the other members on the other side of this House realize,that the quality of education is suffering in our classrooms-and that the students who are being hurt by it most are the disarlvantaged students. Another thin3 that I ran across recently,the President of the NTA brought out the fact that the drop-outs in the schools in this Province were rapidly escalating and I have no doubt and I can predict here and now, l1r.

Speaker, that this will continue and intensify •. Because tvhen you cut back it is easy enough. to say that because you lose so many pupils there- fore you can lose so many teachers, but ·what happens is that these·students do not go in one classroom, You just do not lose thirty students froma grade seven classroom and then . say .that teacher' can go. · What happens is you have students dropp~ng out of a school from various classes in that particular school. I know the minister said many times that specialists are not being laid off. by this government.

We realize the school boards are laying off the specialists·aut what happens when you realize that certain classrooms ·will have· a large number of students and other classrooms may not, 'mt the thing is what do you \.Jhat is happening in many o~ the schools in this

.. June 7, 1978 Tape 4080 }[R. J. HODDER: Province at the moment is that specialists are the first ones to go. And so I· feel that t•e - instead of what the present government - insteac! DH - 2 of trying to just me.ke a hJ.anket cutback of teachers, instead of doing whM: they should have done some planning because tve knotV that the students. are dropping, ~•e know that at the university we are still turning out more teachers than we require in the schools, but yet we have no plans whatsoever as to liow many teachers we are going to need in this Province in the years to come.

I listened recently to a program Hhich talked about tvhat ~Jas happening in ~(anitoba where there they have looked at the number of teachers they need iri the next five years and they found out that the drop-outs and the turnovers tvill be abciut 6 pe·r cent. 1\N HON. MDlBER: ~~. i{EARY: HR. J. !!ODDER : A good P.C. government. Keep qui.et, hoy. So that, Y.r.

Speaker, I feel that instead of launching on this program, the easy program of just sl·ashing across the board, this quick Budget, I feel that we should have looked to the future, seen what our needs were, seen tvhat He require and then from that to guide our students or to advise students that aLe going into the university what·jobs they can expect in the future and what the outlool: ~dll be. But instead of planning, instead of lookirg to the future we took the e~edien t \vay ~·hich was . to cutback and in doing so we have ruined and lowered the quality of education in this Province. :m.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. ~TOLAN: llr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition - how many names were signed? I did not get it. Ai.; HON. ?!El"BER: 2 78 citizens.

June 7, 1978 Tape 4080 }fR. NOLAl~: 278 citizens and residents of Ferryland district.

And I t~ould like to commend the hon. 'Q!ettlher opposite on No items,if I may:. one. aooarentlv in' spite of the advice of one his more prominent colleagues who has insisted publicly that 'presenting petition~ were a waste of time in this House,I suggest that he nevertheless in spite of that sage advice has taking advantage of the opportuni::y,,·:hich is afforded to him and all members here in this House on behalf of citizens he ~epresents,to present the petition,so I doubt very much if he thinks it is a waste of time and I doubt very much if the residents who signed the petition feel that it is a waste of time.

If so it is an awful insult to the people and to the hon. ~ember. That is item one. Dl-1 - 3 Secondly, the fact that the hon. member has pointed out that the decision to bri':'.g about the cutbacks in education 1~ere reached hastilv. , Now what are we talking about? 1-Te are talking about the very foundation of the future citizens of this Province, That is what we are talking about·- we are not talking about a ehange of bed linen-and it was hastily arrived at. Hastily arrived at!

June 7, 1978 Tape 4081 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: I mean, how can you hastily arrive at a decision of that magnitude? And if one does, surely it is an indicati~n of the fact that the social policies, whether it is in education ·a~ "ot~erwis~ of the government,· are cracking at the seams - she is coming asunder.

Now it is all very well whether all of us here continue in the House or not,.but the fact is, what is important, what we are talking about and which the Minister of Edusation directly and all ministers in ~eneral have a responsibilit~ for 1 and all members of the Rouse have a responsibility for insofar as they ~re able, is to see that we do not permit bills or cutbacks through the Budget or anything else to go through this House that will have the serious effects that no one has any doubt about it on the youth of our Province. They have a rough enough row to hoe as it is.

Even when they finish they do not know where they are going in this Province. B~t for God's sake,let us give them a firm base! Let us give them the roots that they need here. And the ~inister of Education, if he did not have the background and so on in education perhaps I could understand. Perhaps I could say that he was swayed by someone within the Cabinet who may be a little more influential than he. Perhaps I would then consider that perhaps he may have been unduly influenced.

But he is not an educational ignoramus - far from it: but a man who i~ respected, as I understand it, within the educational fraternity, or was for many, many years. And now he is shot down in disgrace as though he were a Luftwaffe pilot or something. The fact is that this programme has to change, and I warn the minister,through you, Mr. Speaker, that he and the government may count on sort of a pall, a calming from the students and the teachers in this

.. June 7, 1978 Tape 4081 EC - 2 H?.. NOLAN: Province over the summer months. People are only interested in holidays. The House of Assembly may be closed, and things like that, but the fact \ is come the Fall of this year, I suggest to you, with the problems of the youth in this Province, with unemployment, with the problems at Memorial University, with the problems in secondary and grade schools of all kinds,that it is goinc to reach a crescendo that is going to blast the minister right out of that portfolio unless he takes a stand now.

So I certainly support the prayer of this petition so ably presented.in spite of advice that petitions are a Haste ·of time by the hon. the member for Ferryland. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~JR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's South. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to request that this petition certainly be looked at by the hon. minister and his department officials and be given the consideration it clearly deserves. I recall, Mr.

Speaker, that when I went to school myself, I would think the ratio in the school that I attended, which was considered to be one of the better schools in the Province, here in the city of St. John's, I would say the student-teacher ratio was probably to the order of one in forty-f 1ive, one in fifty, somethin~ of that order.

And I would say in my later medical studies I attended courses wher~ the student-teacher ratio would have been of the order of one to one hundred and fifty, and one to two hundred, and some of these courses were the most beneficial in rny whole educational career. 1 would say that the hon. the minister should certainly, in considering this petition,

June 7, 1978 Tape. 4081 F.C - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: bear in mind the proposition that tve not lower the student-teacher ratio below one to twenty-five which I think .he is ai~ing at maintaining, and which has been a great advance over the years.

I had a chance to look through the educational budget recently and I was pleased to see that if one looked at the proportion of the Budget that is given to the schools in all aspects - this is quite apart from the vocational school, the university and so on and so forth - but the actual high schools, primary schools and so on, it is interesting to note that the actual amount of money given is an increise of 5 per cent to 6 per cent over .last year.

Now this perhaps does not quite get up to the increase in the cost of living, but it is within a very short distance of it and if one compares that with the amount of money given in the Budget to othe~ aspects, that is, the administrative aspects and so on and so forth, in the educational budget, it is interesting to note that the Budget ~as 5 per cent to ·6 per cent less there. So there was an orientation in this Education department estimates to dir~ct money into the school system rather than to the administrative aspects of the system. Mr.

Speaker, I would also hope that the minister would hold to his indication that there will be no cutbacks in speciali~ts in the schools,

June 7, 1978 Tape 4082 PK - 1 Dr. J. Collins: and that in actual fact he has stated and stated quite clearly in this House, and also at public meetings that in actual fact he ~1ould look very favourably at any requests from school authorities that further specialists be put into the schools. I would hope that he would bear that in mind. It is interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, in terms of- a comment was made·about the graduation of teachers at our University - it is interesting to note the recent comment by the President there, who said that Memorial does not graduate teachers; Memorial graduates people educated in teaching. And that these people if they do not get into a specific job that they were orientatin~ themselves for, their basis educational background would allow them to re-direct themselves, and for this very reason he was loath · to say we shoulr:f nut: 11n artifical barrier to people going. into the educational faculty. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova, followed by the hon. member·for Grand Falls. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I stand to support this petition presented so capably by the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power), and want to compliment him ~n his stand on this particular issue, the issue of teacher cutbacks. Mr. Speaker, this is only one in a series of measures that this particular government have taken with respect to education that is goin·g to seriously effect education in this Province .

And hopefully during the Throne Speech I will get a chance to debate some of these measures as they respect our high schools and our high school institutions, the university and trade schools and one thing and the other, measures which are going to severely affect the quality of education and equality of educational opportunity. But this particular petition addresses itself to teacher cutbacks. And, Mr. Speaker, this must be now several thousands of ·people that have ~igned their names to one petition or· another objecting to these teacher cutbacks, several thousands of people who are concerned

June 7, 1978 Tape 4082 IB-2 MR. LUSH: about the affect that teacher cutbacks will have on·quality eduction and equality of educational opportunity in their particular areas as are the people in the Ferryland .area,. Mr. Speaker, there is no question about it that the cutbacks will have a· serious effect on education in certain areas more so than in others, particularly the rural areas of the Province, the smaller areas of the Province. The hon. member for St. John's South (Dr. J.

Collins) made reference to the fact that he hoped that there would be no specialists lost in these teacher cutbacks and that the minister was not.advocating this. Mr. Speaker, the minister is advocating nothing because all the minister is doing is cutting back. The onus is on the school boards as to what teachers .they are going to cut back, as to what teachers are going to have to be removed from schools. And it is a case of what the school boards feel will be less detrimental to the school and what will be placing less responsibility on the entire staff as a whole.

And in many cases this is dismissing or getting rid of a specialist because a specialist does not have the r'~sponsibility of looking after a particular .class. Rathe~, his role is more of a general one and catering to all of the students. And even though it is a very essential service~because the specialist is not .. responsible for a particular class in many cases when ·a superintendent is faced with getting rid of teachers this is the one that will cause him least~ problems. And this is why we find certain schools getting rid of specia 1 i sts. .

So the very forinat used encourages school boards 'to get rid of specialists because by doing this it causes less difficulties, less worries from the point of view of staffing a school, staffing class rooms. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ·maintain that instead of teacher cutbacks, instead of getting rid of teachers,. what the government would have been more prudent in doing, what·the government would have been more advised in doing, what ._

June 7, 1978 Tape 4083 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: the government would have shown more wisdom in doing would have been looking at some way wheteby we could have diminished ·the student­ teacher rat~o and given our school boards more teachers. What the government should be looking at with respect to teachers in this Province giving quality education, is that they should be looking for a new formula for teacher allocation to school boards. The present formula is iniquitous.

When we use a blanket ratio of one to twenty-six or whatever, this is not the kind of formula that is going to bring about equity and equality in education. I maint~in that we have to look for a new formula in allocating schoolteachers, a for~ula that is not based on a mathematical figure right across the Province -one to twenty-six, one to twenty-seven or one to anything. ~t we have to do is look at other factors.

And the only way we are going to bring about equality in education is to consider the factors such as geography, where schools are located, the size of the community and the size of a particular school, the kind of programmes that will be offered in that particular school; this is the only way that we are going to be able to offer quality education and equality of educational opportunity in this Province.

So what we must be looking for is a new formula, not having teacher cutbacks, but looking for a new formula so that those communities now that are prejudiced agairist with respect to this formula of one to twenty-six, that they can be given a more equal opportunity in providing quality education for the students of whatever area.

·• June 7, 1978 l·m, SPEAKER: Grand Falls. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Tape 4083 EC - 2 The bon. the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, as a ciitic of the Question Period or the petition process, I have to say on this particular point that this is one of the years when there has been very, very useful contribution, using the petition and the method by my hon. colleague this afternoon to bring forward to the Legislature ways and means of getting comment on the issue of education in our Province.

I feel very·strongly on the particular topic and I feel, even though we might not achieve a direct success in terms of having the minister come forward with some fundamental policy change, I believe it is very worthwhile that we have legislative members, the fifty-one members being able to exchange points of view on education, which is a topic that generally does not receive a lot of commentary in the Legislature. The area that I have always touched on when I have spoken is the retention rate, which is the one that Dr. Llew Parsons, a former colleague of my colleague from St. John's West(Dr.

Kitchen) and myself in the administration field at the university has been so vocal on in recent weeks. Some 34 per cent of the students who start kindergarten in this Province finally successfully complete Grade XI. That was the latest statistics done by, I believe, Dr. Arch Sullivan - 34 per cent, one-third of th• student body who begin school at the kindergarten level successfully complete Grade XI, which is our highest level of secondary education. I consider this to be one of the tragedies of the education system in our Province today.

June 7, 1978 Tape 4083 EC - 3 i·:R. LUNDRIGAN: When you co~pare that statistic with Ontario, Alberta, Britis~ Columbia, we are approximately SO per cent as high as they are in their retention rate, and I consider this to be an area that we should address ourselves to quite seriously. Now even of more concern are the comments I ·have heard in the last ttvo weeks, I!r. Speaker, that principals are reporting that there is an increase in the drop-out rate in the Province today.

IHth a retention rate of one-third of the student bo~y there is an increase in the drop-out rate, and that means, of course, that many of our students are under the illusion that there is an opportunity for them if they leave school, which is not correct, because there is no opportunity by and large for young people who do not complete secondary education. There is a very limited opportunity if they do complete secondary education. And consequently, somebody has to try to find ways and means to dislodge from the minds of the student body that there is an economic opportunity if they leave school.

My own feeling is that without at least a Grade XI education today you are hardly qualified to be an active member of a society because that is the minimum of an education standard that young people need in 1978. I fully support the feeling that we open up the topic further, that we look at it and not restrict ourselves to the narrow issue of the pupil-teacher ratio, but get into the area of pro£ramme development which is the. focal p6int in the member for Terra Nova's remarks. Having said that, .let me indicate h6w surprised and astounded I am that

.. June 7, 1978 Tape 4084 DW - 1 MR. J. LlJNDRIGAN: here are today,we are looking at an hour gone, He looked at fifteen hours debate. the other day by the member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir (}rr. Simmons) and this afternoon on the MR. S. NEARY: Did he break any rules? MR. J. LUNDRIGA.'I: rules once in.a while. HR. PECKFORD: ~IR. J. LUNDRIGAN: No,he did not break any He did not break any rules. · Keep quiet! If the member will listen for one more second.

I am a~tounded that despite the liberties that we take with petitions,like today there has been six or seven members spoken which is about the seventh time we have had a debate, a mini debate,on the education issue in the House that the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) refused consent to have unanimous consent for a resolution; }~r. Speaker, to support one of the most ornamental matters that we have had before the House. SOHE HON . :-!ENBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

As is obvious to hon. members, the latter comments or a sentence or two of the hon. member for Grand Falls '!Nere off the subject matter of the petition and were not in order. }!R. S . NEARY : !-m.. SPEAKER: MR. S. HEARY: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. A point of order has risen, Mr. Spe!!Ur,the hon .. gentleman just made a statement, and Your Honour heard it,I believe,that · the member for LaBoile refused to grant unanimous consent of the House to do something or other that the hon. gentleman wanted to do. I do not under&tand what it was, Sir, but Nr.

Speaker, let me make it abundantly clear that I did not refuSe, nobody 0n this side of the House refused,and the hon. member should "be asked to retract that, Sir, and apologize to the House, Sir,

,I June 7, 1978 Tape 4084 D\·1- 2 HR. S. C.'EARY: for this guttersnipe type of political innuendo and sniping at the Opposition. HR. SPEAF'.ER: Order, please! Order, please! Before I hear the hon. gentleman, at times words appear to creep into our vocabulary and one hears them once or tw!ice and perhaps does not immediately respond~ think1.ng that ·this was a slip of the tongue but then they sort of become current. I do believe that hon. members lJould lile better off in their participation debate not to use the ter~ gutter­ snipe. ~1R • S • NEARY : Is it unparliamentary? MR. SPE.AJ<ER: I think it is, yes. HR. S.

NEARY: Just going on, Sir, some of the statements made by the member for Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor) yesterday - t.ffi. lii.N •. ROWE: Which were allowed. MR. S. NEARY: -which ~ere allowed~but if Your Honour 'thinks it· is unparliamentary I beltieve Your Honour is doubtful:· but I will withdraw to save Your Honour the embarrassment anyway, Sir. ..SOME RON . MEMBERS : AN RON. 1-T.ffiER: MR. S. UEARY: Oh, oh! Even if they are true. Eut I believe the member should ··dthdraw his stat:ement, Your Honour,because it is not true that 1-re. I agreed on behalf of my colleagues - MR. tm. ROWE: We agreec:l. t'R.

S: NEARY: - to look at the .matter, to look at it, Sir, providing the !1inister ·of Fisheries tJould give us the letters and telegrams to the· minister before today's statement,give us·the documentation before he made his statement today,to show lJhat the minister had already done. That is fair enough, is it not? SOl-IE RON. HENBERS: Oh, oh!

June 7, 1978· Dlil - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member. ~':R. J. LUNDRIGA..\1: Your Honour,the hon. member rose on a point of order and indicated that I should withdraw the statement that I made that there li'as no unanimous consent and that it was withheld by the member. And, Nr. Speaker, the reason that cannot be true,there were two people who participated in the presentation on the resolution. I made the recommendation,the hon. member.got up, attached conditions because of his concern and his suspicions and refused. And then Your Honour got up and ruled that there was no unanimous consent.

Now, Your Honour, there 1vere only tHo people who participated and I recommended it anrl the other member was the member uho spoke. Obviously, Your llonou!' mUst have been under the impression that the member refused unanimous consent. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, pleAse! The whole matter appears to be a difference of opinion between two hon. gentleman~'There is nothing the Chair can say. TI1e hon. member alleges or states that unanimous consent was refused,the other hon. gentleman says it was not refused.

There is no matter for the Chair to make any decision on.tt' is a ;difference of opinion and not a matter on which the Chair can make any ruling. l-!R. S • NEARY : HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. l·1R. .S .NEAPY: . :.•r. Speaker. On the petition? Nr. Speaker, a ne1v ideology , a new philosophy seems to have developed in this House, Sir, today. The member for Grand Falls is now going to decide what petitions are good and what petitions are bad. HR •. W .N. ROHE: That is 'right. HR • NOLA.\! : As only he can. HR. The mewher lvho toJ rl '"' that they are a waste of time got up tocay and supported a S.

NEAF.Y:

I I I .I June 7, 1978 Tape 4084 DH - 4 :1R. S .?TEARY: petition but said this is a good one,the others are all bad petitions. :-!R. HHITE: 1<ater and sewer are not important (inauuible) :,!R. S. NEARY: So, Hr.· Speaker, there is a new philosophy. Hr. Speaker, the petition that was presented · by the member for· Ferryland (Hr. Power), Sir, on behalf of 272 residents of Ferryland - St. !1ary' s and The Capes •..1as ·a good petition and it is not the first,as Your Honour knows, that has been presented in this hon. Hnu3e. }ffi. SI~!HONS: Did you hear what he said? ~fR. J. LTJtmRIGAN: A point of order, Your Honour.

HR. SPFAV..ER: A point of order. ?-fR. J. Lt~'DRICAN: Hr. Speaker, I am trying to listen to the member for LaPoile and two members both of them are cat-calling across the House and I cannot hear the member and I ask that he be heard in silence. A1~ HON. :!ElffiER: Sit down. }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member has a right to be heard without interruption. ~!R • S • NEARY : I do not - MR. SIMHONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. . ~. SPFAKER: A point of order has risen . l·m.

SIMNONS: Well,I guess on a matter of privilege,because what I was doing was not catcalling but-reacting in horror to what I heard the member for Grand Falls say. He told rny colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) that.he would get him •. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! .· ~. SIMHONS : I heard.it

June 7, 1978 Tape No, 4085 HR. Sli!NONS: distinctly, Mr. Speaker, and that is what I was reacting to. The member for Grand Falls- They can laugh it off, Hr. Speaker, HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. SIMMONS: They can laugh it off all they want. I heard the member for Grand Falls - MR.LUNDRIGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: HR. W.N. ROl-lE: MR. NEARY: MR. SIHMONS: Go float around (inaudible) Order, please! No control over the membersl Order, please! Order! The bon. gentleman. Go ahead. Mr. Speaker, No, I am not finished. I have lots of time left. ~!r.

Speaker, the member for Grand Falls,and he might laugh it off now and try and cozy his way into the Chair and that kind of thing. :-rR~WHITE: Grand Falls will deal with him. Grand Falls will JH - 1 deal with him. HR. SIMMONS: The member for Grand Falls said to my colleague in a very threatened tone,and I heard it and I believe my colleague heard it, "I will get you~' Now, Mr. Speaker, we cannot have that kind of ·thing particularily from the person who sets the standards in the House,who tells us what is dignity and all that kind of stuff. He is over there saying,and I heard him, Mr.

Speaker, in distinct terms~and I think. !lansarci will show that I am correct on this,that he said in very distinct and very threatening terms to my colleague from Lewisporte~ "I will get you." Now that cannot be allowed, Mr. Speaker, and he must be asked to withdraw it. HR. SPEAKER: I will hear the hon. member. HR. LUNDRIGAJ.'I: To that point of order J. have to stand up because Hansard does not record the ho, hoes and the ~les and the laughs and the kinds of frivolity with which I treat that hon. member's comments. So I have to stand and correct the record· because you have to have this on tape.

I never made any such nonsensical comments. I indicated to the member

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4085 J}j - 2 HR. LUNDRIGAN: across the way that when I get on my feet the next time I will get the chance to get my remarks across to him and not cat-calling across the way. The member,who has a skin like an onion leaf. Mr. Speaker, is responding and showing his lack of altitude again and in that regard I ignore his comments. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the matter has been disposed of in that the hon. gentleman did indicate that he did not intend any threatening language. Obviously I think all hon. members have to take that.

I mean the words are ambigious and they can have a number of meaning. I think the hon. gentleman has stated .quite unequivocally that he had no intention of using them in an unparliamentary and improper sense. The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker·, this is the second day in a row now that we have seen the decorum of the House, Sir, lowered b~ members on the opposite side. MR. WhiTE: NR. SPEAKER: }fR. NEARY: By the member for Grand· Falls (l1r.Lundrigan) Order, please! Order, please! Hr. Speaker, that is right, Sir. There is no leadership.

They have no leadership on the government benches they are just doing what they like. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must direct the hon. gentleman to marshall his remarks in terms of the p·etition which is related to education and the possible diminishment of the quality thereof by cutbacks etc. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir,We are talking about quality of education, ;•!r. Speaker, and that is a most appropriate subject to talk about in this .·House today, quality of education. I am sure that we could rise the quality of education in this hon.

House after just listening to the hon. member for .Grand Falls and the member for Mount Scio yesterday. But, Sir, the gentleman that brought in the petition, Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition indicated 1must have done

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4085 JM - 3 MR. NEARY: so, Sir, after some very serious soul searching as the han. gentleman is the president of the Tory party in this Province and it just goes to show, Sir, tltat thedissession that must be going on at the moment in the ranks of the government benches. :·!R, C. POWER: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. C. POI·/ER: Hr. Speaker, I brought a petition into the House of Assembly as a member of the House of Assembly for Ferryland district, I did so with the interest of the students and parents concerned.

It ;~s absolutely no relationship to being president of the PC party or being a government member or other. I resent the fact,whether it is a point of order or not,that members on the opposite side of the' House can make it into political dissension on our side of the !louse because I as a.member do my duty. SOME HON. ME11BERS: ~!R. SPEAKER: Hear! Hear! Order, please! Order, please! There is no point of order or matter on which this Chair can possibly make any decision or contribution. The hon. member. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, there is clearly a split in the ranks, Sir, but nevertheless having said that we now have the petition before us and I want to support it, Sir, because I have supported,I believe, just about every petition of a similar nature that has been brought into this House this session. It is the only opportunity we have had to debate this matter,by the way. The Premier has not given us an opportunity to debate the teacher cutbacks, the effect that it will have on the quality of education in the House. Presenting petitions is the only method whereby we can debate this matter or discuss this matter.

Al.' HON, YJ.EMBER: They are a waste of time, are they not? PREMIER HOORES: You spoke for five days on the Throne Speech. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, that is not true; The Premier knows that I did not· speak for .five days on the Throne Speech and if t did, Sir-'

.. June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4085 JM- 4 AN l-ION. !1EMBER: At least he spoke. MR. NEARY: if I did at least I spoke, and I spoke in the Budget Speech, that is more than the hon. the Premier has done yet. The hon. Premier decides - ~lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out hon. gentleman on both sides are abusing the rules vtith respect to petitions and I would ask thee to adhere to them •

June 7, 1978 Tape 4086 EC - 1 1!R. NEARY: We do not know what the Premier's feelings are on this matter, Sir. Maybe we will hear tonight. The hon. gentleman has bought time out of the taxpayers' money to make a political statement. Maybe he will tell us tonight about the teacher cutback. AN HON. l1El1BER: Debating, debating! MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not debating. The Premier is the head of the administration, and I would like to know how the Premier feels about this cutback on teachers that will have such a drastic effect on the quality of education. in this Province.

I would like to see, Sir, as I have said so often before, a thorough 1 independent study of all aspects of education in this Province starting from kindergarten right on up through to university - pupil-teacher ratio, student afd,which is increasing year by year, the curticulum, whether we should have. Grade XII in the high schools or not - MR. H. COLLINS: is (inaudible).· HR .. NEARY: The only thing not corrupt Well, we will find out tonirht who is corrupt and who smears people, and name-calling and character assassination. We wil~ be tuned in at 6:30.tonight. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I support the petition and I would encourage the minister and ask the government to reconsider this matter of the little~old Task F9r~~ they set.up of two academics over at Memorial University., broaden it and put the parents on it, put the taxpayers' r.epresentative on it and put students on it, and ·let us have a fact finding ~tudy made of our whole educational system. And, Mr. Speaker, I will say this before I sit down - and I have not consulted my colleague,

June 7, 1978 Tape 4086 EC - 2 HR. NEARY: the Leader of the Opposition - hut I would say th~t one of the first things we will do wh•n we form the government of this Province is to do a thorough, independent fact finding study of education in this Province to see if we are getting the best value for our money, if we are headed ~n the right direction starting at kindergarten and right on up through to university education. SOME RON. MEM~ERS: HR. SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. SO~~-E liON. i!Er::JEP.S: ~!R. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Burgeo - Oh, oh! Order, please! ~-lR. SI~!!-!ONS: Mr.

Speaker, this is a fairly significant petition. I was glad that the Minister of Education finally dragged himself into the House. He did his colleague the disservice of being away when the petition was presented, but he finally dragged himself in. I can understand it is not good news for him that n6t only we on this side but some thinking people on the other side happen to have reservations about his Task Force, reservations about his education teacher cutbacks, so that all we have been told by the minister may be his view but not necessarily the view of everybody on that side.

And that is encouraging to know, because what the member for Ferryland h~ said outside this House he is now saying inside this House, that he has some very serious reservations about the matter and I admire him for saying that. Mr. Speaker, the petition today is significant for two reasons, two big reasons. One, of course, is that it is an education petition. And we have said a lot about education in this House. And as long as

June l, 197 8 Tape 4086 EC - 3 :-!~. S Il1l·IONS: this House is sitting we will continue to say a lot more until we finally get through to the Minister of Education that,for poiitical interests or wbatever, he is Eacrificing some very real and important causes. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, this petition today is awfully significant having in mind that it was the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) who presented it and the ~ember for Grand Falls (Hr. Lundrigan) who spoke to it, and the member for Bonavista South (}!r. Horga·

n) who seemed not to want the discussion on the petition to go on, he with his position on budworms and what have you. Very significant, Mr. Speaker, this petition is, because it illustrates once- MIL MORGAN: (Inaudible) is more like it! MR. ·wHITE: The most reprimanded _minister in historY· l~R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: The teachers' great friena. MR. SH!~!ONS: That is right, Hr. Speaker. The minister is finally right on something. I am the great friend of the teachers,which he cannot claim. illustrates once again - i-•R. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this petition (Inaudible). MR.

SIMMONS : I know the budworm is a tender subject for the minister. MR.3. COLLINS: problem. At least I know ~hen there is a

June 7, 1978 Tape 4087 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: That is right. The minister now begins to admit the truth of that spray. The spray is going to affect more people than it will. budworms. He. might have conned the doctors into backing down. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the hen. gentlemen to my left to cease interrupting and the hen. gentlemen to my right to revert from budworms to education. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, this petition is significant for another very important reasons. It illustrates, Mr.

Speaker, once again in no uncertain terms,much more so than the comment of the Minister of Tourism about budworms or his comment earlier about transportation and highways ·and so on, it illustrates once again the very serious, very fatal cracks in the government's armor. particularly so on the subject of education. It is beyond repair, They are just a bunch of confused people, Mr. Speaker, who have no concensus on this issue. They are fumbling around for some· direction.

They are bumping into each other going in all directions, ~1ish they would come to their senses on this one in particular, this question of education. It is· so important. I wish the member for Ferryland {_Mr, Power) could get that through to his colleague. I had depended for a while on the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) but of course he·has demonstrated today that he cannot be depended on. Now I want to say one word to my colleagues before I sit down, my colleagues here on this side of the House in particular before I sit down.

Whenever you have got a petition,fellows,submit it to the member for Grand Falls and see if it is a sensible one or not first because it may not be sensible. It may deal with something I as mundane as water and sewer.· Now that is not very sensible,you understand. Ask the member for Grand Falls what is ·a sensible petition? \4hat an abuse of the rules of the House! Shameful abuse for a member to get up here,after what he said outside the House to undermine this House, to get up then and have the gall to get up and even participate in' this petition discussion. Shameful! ·support the petition, Mr. Speaker.

June 7, 1978 Tape 4087 . IB-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR; SPEAKER: Presenting Reports ·by Standing and Specia 1 Committees. The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: would like to present a petition to be tabled to the hon. Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Do we have leave to revert to petition? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of J~stice .. MR. HICKMAN:' Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act, 1973". (BiJl No. 60) On behalf· of the hon.

Minister of Social Services, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social \~orkers," (Bill No. 61) On behalf of the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, "An Act To Facilitate Metric Conversion." (Bill No. 62) On behalf of the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Plants An,d The Pervention Of The Spread Of Pests And Diseases Destructive To Vegation." (Bill No. 55). And a bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Animals." (Bill No. 63).

And a bill, "An Act To Amend The Har Services (Pensions) Act, 1975." (Bill No. 59) ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H; COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have some more answers for the hon. member for LaPoile (.Mr. Neary). The answer to question no .. 86. In the name of the same hon. member, the answer to question no. ·72 and the answer to question no. 79. MR. SPEAKER: . 'MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Labour. Yesterday !·undertook for the hon. member for Terra Nova· (Mr. Lush) to give him the numbers of agreements with government and the various stages.

I have that information now in total. The·number of agreements negotiated by Treasury Board and by

.. June· 7, '1978 Tape 4087 IB-3 MR: ROUSSEAU: Treasury Board plus another agency in some instances. Three have been settled. Eight are in the negotiation stage and there are fifteen to come which are agreements to be negotiated. In other words,the current ·contract has not expired. Three, eight and fifteen. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER:· The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ··MR. ·w; ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if I may ask a question of the Minister of He a 1 th.

I understood a day or two ago when I asked him the . question in the House that the Newfoundland Medical Association came out against certain aspects of the spruce budworm spray programme particularly the spraying in or near ~later sources, water

.. June 7, 19711 Tape No. 4088 P.T-1 ?T.. \-l. RO!o.'E: supplies, community water supplies, or spraying in or near communities. Subsequently, yesterday, I believe, they had a meeting with the Hinister and his colleague, if the news reports are correct, his colleague, the ~!inister of Forestry, and nm; apparently according to news reports again, the ~:edical Association is satisfied that there will not be spraying near communities or near llater supplies.

Does that mean,as it can only _mean,that the }linister of the Government has now changed its program, the parameters of its programme, where the spraying is going to take place? MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it might be worthwhile to read the or:l.ginal resolution which was passed at the annual meeting of the Newfoundland Medical Associaticn. It is obvious that the resolution . could have been mis:l.nterpreted by people listening to it on the airwaves or in the press in general. The resolution passed by the Newfoundland ~:edical Association at St.

John's on June 2nd reads, "':hat the Newfoundland Medical Association asked the Government to avoid spruce bud•~rm spraying near community water suppl~es and populated areas until safety levels had been evaluated and short term and long term hazards to health had been fully studied". Nm1, 'lr.

Speaker, in the release that they made yesterday,or last night,the Medical Association says again,and I quote, "On the basis of information provided by the }!inister of Health and the !1inister of Forestry and Agriculture at this afternoon's meeting, the Newfoundland Medical Association feels that the spray program lies within the guidel:l.nes and intent of the motion passed on June 2nd 11.t the annual general meeting. There has been no -" MR. WHITE:· wno ·~ote that? MR. H. COLLINS: · AN HON.

HEMBF:R : \Vho wrote what? \Vhat you just read. . ~-COLLINS:· That is a copy of an official release by the Newfoundland l·!edical Associati'on. One is by the Medical Association

.. -~ June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4088 RT-:l ~ffi. H. COLLINS: in convention, and the one I read,which was released last night,is by the Executive of the ~·ewfoundland Hedical Association. HR. s. NEARY: ~rr. Speaker. 1-:R. SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile. }~F.. s. NEAR.Y: Xr. Speaker, c.y question is for the· Hon. the Premier.

HHl the Hon. the Premier indicate to the House ~~hen the Cabinet reshuffle that the bon. gentleman spoke about in ~!ay month that l·•as to take place in the month of June- would the Hon. the Premier indicate if and when that Cabinet shuffle is going to take place and if it ~~ill take place before the House closes? MR • SPEAKER: ..JREmER MOORES: Hon. ?remier. Mr. Speaker, you know, I think the bon. member is getting his years mixed up. There is no commitment to have any Cabinet shuffle at this time. l~·-~· NEA~: 1-'R.. SPF.AKEP.: ~. S. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.· Supplementary.

Hon. member for LaPoile.- Hould the bon. gentleman indicate to the House if he has received a resignation from either the l!inister of Consumer Affairs,or the Minister of Industrial Development, or any bther Minister? Is the Premier currently carrying around any resignations in his pocket? ~. SPEAKER: PF.EMIER HOORES: 1-!R. T. RIDEOUT: t'R. SPEAKER: ~m. T. RIDEOtTT: Hon. Premier. No, Mr. Speaker. :-tr. Speaker. Hon. member'for Baie Verte-~~.ite Bay. Thank you, Hr.

Speaker. l-!y question is for the Hinister of Transportation and Communicaticns, and in view of the appearance of priority given by the Government to the upgrading and pavir;g of cert.ain roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula because of asbestos contam:i.nation in the road dust,and in vier-1 of the fact that this priority has obviously been accepted and espoused by the Government over the past number of months, could the Hinister tell the House now, in vie1~ of the fact that we are into June month, whether or not it is the firm intention

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4088 RT-3 ~:RIDEOUT: of the Government to start a major reconstruction and paving program on the Eaie Verte Peninsula this summer? }~. SPEAKER: HR. ~1. DOODY: Eon. ~inister for Transportat~on and Cocmunications. Yes, l~r. Speaker,' it is the intent of the Government to get intq '! najor reconstruction and hopefully a paving program on the Peninsula during the present season. 1-!e have already. called tenders for a

section of the Seal Cove Road for rebuilding. ~e hope to be in a position <Jithin the next few <·Jeeks to make a more significant and important announcement; however ,it would be in conjunction <vith the Government of Canada and I am not in a position to elaborate on· that at this particular time, hut it is, and I reiterate and emphasize, t~e intention of the Government to fulfili its commitment in that regard, ~T~ RIDEOUT: }:R • SPEAKER: '~.. T. RIDEOUT: Supplementary, ~fr. Speaker. Supplementary. Hr. Speaker, .I know that the Government is awaiting some word from the Government of Canada, but I am wondering also ~1hether

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4089 NM - 1 MR • .RIDEOUT: the minister can. give this House some sort of definitive statement as to exactly what 1~ork this government plans to carry out on the Baie Verte Peninsula this ·Summer, how much is going to be done and 1-1hat is the dollar value of the proposed reconstruction and paving that will be carried out by .this government on the Baie Verte Peninsula this Summer~ :-m.. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: TI1e hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications.

It is impossible to put a dollar value on it at this point, Your Honour, and it is also equally impossible to give an actual time frame of construction. The intent is to work on both these roads, to rebuild them and bring them up to standard for paving and to pave them as quickly as we possibly c;:m. l~at the actual value· of that project is,I am not in a position to say because I quite honestly do not know. And the other part of the question is t~hat the time frame is in _which that can be done. -Once again that will -depend to a large extent on the ongoing discussions.

I am in a dangerous area here, Sir; I do not 1-1ant to pre-empt the position of the people of the Government of Canada with 1-1hom we are having discussions. They have been most co-operative to date. I do not Hant to interfere with that process. It is going very, very ~~ell. And on the other hand I do not want to withhold information from the House. So if the hon. mer:.ber 1rlll bear ~lith me for a week or two I think we wili be in a position to make a far more positive announcement than what appears now to be hedge hopping and side. stepping and so on, 1mich is not really t~hat I am trying to do.

MR. ·RIDEOUT: A final supplementary, :lr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: :!R. RIDEOUT: A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, let n:e o:sk ·~he minister a supplementary that. has no beating Hhatsoever,I do not suppose,on any negotiations with Ottawa, and that is that in vie¥! of the fact tbat the budget

.. June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4089 1-I"":I - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: for this year has now been approved by the House, the minister has the money that he is alloHed to spend for this financial year. Does the minister have any intention of tabling in this House a list of capital projects to be undertaken by his department all over the Province this year? I think the minister ought to give the House the benefit of that information before the House closes for the session. l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

DOODY: Hell,I can certainly table in the House the list of road projects that have been approved and stamped and certified and put out to tender to date, and I can also add to that list from time to time as further projects and particular roads are aprroved by government, To be able to project into the season for the full list of all the things that tve hope to do and want to do _would be a very dangerous thing.

I would not Hant to get involved in it because there are all too often many programmes, many projects, many road operations. that we would like to get into that we have intentions of getting _into, but which we may have to defer for one reason or another until the following year. And I do not want to be in a position of raising the hopes and expectations, and being accused of making political pro~ises and commitments. I would much rather do it <Vhen the actual fact of the matter is before the public and is an actually certified event that can be-stated as being in the process of being done.

I am not going to put on a list of projected roads. We have got a lot of road work on in ~:.e programme this year, Sir·. A lot of it caught us some•.vhat unprepared. The Trans-Canada Highway agreement was one that was an and/or/if situation until almost a week or so before the final signing. l~e did not have the engineering staff

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4089 i'<1! - 3 1-fR. DOODY: in place to look after all that ;.;ork, As a result of it tve have had to go out looking for extra help and ~-1e have had to hire on a part-time basis other engineering and ~rafting help to try to catch up tvith that. He could not hire the staff beforehand, it would have peen superfluous. !.je have got the DREE work underway. I.,Te have got our provincial roads programme underway. I think that this is one of the biggest years that we have had in road work for some years now and that is being reflected,incidentally 1 in the type of tender calls that are·coming in.

The prices for road work this year are far higher than they have been during the past several years. I would suspect that the industry realizes that this is a very active year and it is going to be an active season and as a result of which the bids are much higher than He had anticipated.

This is making us rethink it and relook at it and we are trying to do the engineering, the upgrading. and all the necessary bits and pieces and put them out in· a 1-1ay t!1ey can be handled in a reasonable and sensible manner, rather than just make a blanket statement of all the things that we are going to do and it could very' well be that He ~:~ay not be able to attain all the ambitions that we have in that particular regard. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for Port au Port, followed by the hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the !~inister of Transportation and Communications. For several years no~.; the French group in the district of Port au Port, Les Terra Novians Francais have been asking for bilingual road signs for the district, and last ye::r - no~.; I might point out that this ·is a bilingual district. It has been designated a bilingual district by the federal government. It now has French radio and televis~on. The representation was made to the former minister and

Jlne 7, 1978 Tape No. 4090 .J}l - 1 HR. J. HODDER: he gave the excuse last year that the sign shop was busy because of the change to metric. I ask now if the Hinister of Transportation and Communications would now consider the request of the french speaking people of Port au Port for bilingual road signs for the French communities in that area? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minis :er. HR. W. DOODY: I will certainly consider it, Sir. I do not know how quickly it can be accomplished. I would assume that there is a programme of that type in being in this great country of our3.

Certainly the Government of Canada seems most anxious to help in any way that is french speaking and even bilingual. So I think that even if our own facilities are stretched a little bit we n.ay be able to get them done in some sign shop in Hull or some other part of Canada. I would certainly like to be able to get it done and I will take it up with the people in our own department and try .to press it on as far as I can. I would like to go a little bit further,as a matter of fact,and get some Gaelic signs put in Kitchuses and Bacon Cove but I do not think that is going to be possible during this particular year.

But in all seriousness, I am serious, I will look into it and see if we can get it done. It is not a problem that I am quite honestly familar with but it is one that you can tell me more about and I will try to get at it. HR. Sll-1!10NS: HR. SPEAKER: !1R. Sll1UONS: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir. Hr. Speaker, to the same minister and my request is even simpler tl~n the member for Port au Port's. I am looking for a sign in one language, English, a sign for the Bay d'Espoir highway. ttt.

Speaker, there is no sign at the intersection of the Bay d'Espoir Highway and the Trans-canada Highway. It has been missing for some time, about a year or so. Anticipating the minister,I did not take it down. But seriously,does the minister - It is perhaps not a detail he would be aware of now but could he undertake to find out what plans there are to have a proper sign erected there? I can find

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4090 JM - 2 HR. SUlMONS: my way to Bay d'Espoir; that is not the problem,! say to the minister.

But seriously,there are a lot of people down the·Bay d'Espoir Highway, in Bay d'Espoir and all around the West side of Fortune Bay, a population of about 12,000 or 13,000 in my district and my colleague's district from Fortune-Hermitage,and there is no sign coming in either direction approaching it from the West or East, any sign on the highway to indicate to the traveller the names ·of the communities down that highway, nothing whatsoever other than the route sign saying route so and so but no indication of where St.

Albims is or Harbour Breton or iietinitage or any of the co!lllllunities down that highway at all. I wonder could the minister either undertake or perhaps if he is aware of the situation now could he respond ·to my question on the point. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. W. DOODY: No, Sir, I must admit in all humility_ of my ignorance of that particular situation.! did not realize that the sign was missing.

I would like to take the opportunity to join the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir and say that I too am not responsible for the missing sign and I feel certain that all other hon. members of this House would like to take advantage of the opportunity to affirm their innocence in this particular piece of villainy.

As for getting a sign in place there,I am certainly sure that if that problem is presented to the people in the department­ and I do not know if it has been,but certainly I have not heard of it before- I am sure they would be only too happy to put a {lign up directing the populace and the tourists to that particular part of the province. It is an exceptionally attractive part and it is a scenic delight and I think that it would be only fair and just to allow people to know exactly where these communities are. I would be only too happy to co-operate.

Perhaps if the hon. member would give us a call down at the department - MR. SIM110NS: Will do.

June 7, 1973 HR. W. DOODY: HR. SPEAKER: HR. NOLAH: MR. SPEAKER: Tape Ho. 4090 -it. may facilitate or speed up the process. The hon. me~•ber for Conception - No, Hr, Speaker, I am not ready. JH - 3 ·The hon. gentleman is not ready. The hon. member for Conception nay South followed by St. John's West, Windsor-Buchans and Terra Nova. HR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hinister of Rural Development.

There arc a number of people in my own district and many other districts as '~ell who have applied to the department for grants and/or loans which are being held up pending the necessary funds, the signing of the necessary agreements. If I am not mistaken,I believe there might be thirty applications,and I iuaybe wrong on that but somewhere in that vicinity. I am wondering if the minister can give us some information on this because there are people who are quite interested as you know in attempting to start industries, small businesses and so on and I would like .to hear his answer on this situation. HR.

SPEAKER: !1R. PECKFORD: The hon. Minist.er of Hines and Energy, Hr. Speaker, I thank the .hon. member for Conception Bay South for asking me that question because it is an important question and one that a lot ·of individuals around the Province and small. entrepreneurs want an answer to and have been calling the department on a regular basis over the last number of weeks. I have indicated to all the development associations in the

June 7, 1978 Tape 4091 EC - 1 MR. PECKFORD: Province,and to all others who have contacted me,that myself together with the Minister of Inter-governmental affairs are in the process of signing a new DREE agree~ent of $18 million to $20 million with the federal government and that agreement does contain elements in it which have been suggested by the hon. the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), namely, incentive grants to small industries, which, as the hon. member knows, are working extremely well around the Province and which have created something over 3,000 jobs in the last' three or four years.

So we are very proud of the programmes. Specifically, it is hoped that the agreement can be signed before the end of this present month. In the interim, ~hat we are doing is that we are suggesting to business people that they apply to the Rtiral Development Authority for the no interest loans in the interim so that they are. not stalled in getting on with the job of creating jobs.

And as it relates to the development associationswho are funded federally/ provincially usually under the previous agreement and will be under the new agreement, we have advanced the development associations who are in trouble money on our own - the provincial government have - to insure that they can get on with their projects and will not be stalled, and then it will be subtracted from the amount that they get when the agreement is signed. I thank the hon. member for the question, and he can be assured that we will get that agreement signed as soon as we can, precisely, sometime this month. MR.

NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. gentleman.

~ . June 7, 1978 Tape 4091 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: I thank the minister. While the han. minister referred to the development associations, there are others who are not applying through development associations, and the real danger here that' I see now, particularly in ny own area, but other areas that I have had calls from as. well, is that unless there is some kind of move for funding, ~ither interim financing or something, they are not going to get off the ground this.year, particularly if you require to get going in the fine weather, which God knows we do not have enough of.

And I am wondering if there is any way to give it a little push somewhere along the line because people have a feeling they are being stalled off out there. They 'phone in to the department and they are told, 'We do not know when the agreement is going to be signed.' And I am sure the minister has heard t~e same things I have. MR. PECKFORD: Yes. MR. NOLAN: And I urge him if there is any way possible, please give us some assurance if there is anything in an interim way that can be done to he1p these people. They deserve to be helped, by the way, on the basis of their proposition. MR. PECKFORD:_ Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I assure the han. gentleman that we are doing everything possible, as are the Minist~r of Inter-governmental Affairs and p~ople in both departments to expedite· getting this agreement signed. All the development associations in the Province have written both the federal minister responsible for DREE and myself and the Minister of Inter-governmental Affairs and other i~terested bodies in the Province like the Rural Development Council who can put additional

June 7, 1978 Tape 4091 EC - 3 ~R. PECKFORD: pressure on both governments to get to the table and get the thing signed so 'that ~e can get on with the job before a very attractive Spring and Summer for investment is lost. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated the hon. the member for St. John's West. MR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, I understand that the minister has announced that the present Chairman of Metro Board, Mr. John R. O'Dea, is to be the Chairman of the Regional Council proposed under Bill No. 50 currently before ~he House.

This being so, Mr. Speaker, could the minister inform us by what legal authority this a~pointment was made when the bill has not yet been approved by the L~gislature and may never be approved? - certainly, that controversial

section having to do with the chairman may not be approved. And while he is doing this, the minister might also inform the House under what authority he and the government with which he is associated dares to i~sult this House and every member in it by taking our assent for granted. SOME HON. MEMBER!: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs: MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I announced in this House that the present Chairman of Metro Board, who is now the p~rmanent Chairman of Metro Board, who was appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, which is their right to do, is the permanent Chairma~. right now, of Metro Board and will be if we have regional government, if the House consents to that, Council. will be the new Chairman of the Regional

.... June 7, 1978 Tape 4091 EC - 4 AN HON. ME}!BER: Taking a lot for granted. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans, I had indicated, followed by the hon. gentleman fro~ Terra Nova. HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy with regard to the Hind's Lake development. I understand that the tenders for Hind's Lake are now under consideration by Hydro.

Would the minister indicate what the status of the tender from Collavino is, whether that company is still in competition in view of the fact that they underbid the rest of the companies and Hydro's own cost analysis by $10 million. There was some word that they may no longer be in competition. Would the minister confirm or deny that they are still in competition? 1-!R. SPEAKER: and Energy. HR. PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, I checked on this this morning with people in Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and,as I understand it from them, the message that they conveyed to me this

.• June 7, 1978 Tape 4092 IB-1 MR. PECKFORD: morning in person, was that all the people, all the contractors who bid on those two packages, civil works, are still in the running~ if you will, and that includes then the Collavino Brothers. The assessment process should be over within another day or so and then various recommendations will b~ coming from Sha~~ont, the consultants,and from the management of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to me as minister responsible and through me to Cabinet.

That is ~1here it stands as of this morning at about ten thirty. am hopeful that within seven days a final decision on how we are going to handle those two contracts and who gets the work can be made so that we can get on with the job. MR; FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister confirm that Collavin~ did indeed underbid the rest of the companies by $10 million and also not only did he underbid the rest of the contractors but the company underbid Newfoundland Hydro's own cost estimation for the job?

If that is so,is the minister saying that having done that, having underbid by $10 million,that they are letting their tender stand and are prepared to do that work for $10 million less than Hydro had intended or ·tr.at the other contractors felt they could do it for? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Number one, the Collavino Brothers did bid a lot lower than the rest of the contractors, somewhere around $9 million or $10 million as the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans says.

Number two, was that bid a lot lower than what Newfoundland Hydro has estimated - a·nd there· seems to be some confusion on that issue. I think the difference from Collavino Brothers and the next lowest bid was somewhere around $9 million to $10 million. The estimate by Hydro, they did not put any firm·figure on it. So it would seem that Collavino Brothers could be $5 million or more belo~t the estimate but not the $10 million that has been quoted very often. ·.

., June 7, 1978 Tape 4092 MR. PECKFORD: And the third part of the question had to do with - MR. FLIGHT: Did Collavino request ~ MR. PECKFORD: Amend his bid afterwards? IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: Request to ~1ithdraw their tender as a result of that. MR: PECKFORD: No, they have not requested withdrawal but there have been ta 1 ks with Co 11 a vi no Brothers. I 1~i 11 not have anything definite on that until I have it in writing from Hydro and the consultant,which I hope will be tomorrow.

So I do not know whether in fact as I have just left it for the consultants and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to put in the package if you will for me before I get involved in it. So I am not sure whether Collavino Srothers has upped their bid or changed it or said that they have mistakes jn their bid or whatever. But I will have all of that in writing from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro tomorrow and then hopefully for a governmental decision on it this week or early next ~1eek. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower with respect to the present state of negotiations between the X ray and lab technicians and the government. I expect that is one of the eight that the minister referred to that is in negotiation, and it looks like running into some problems. I am led to understand that the X ray and lab technicians group, the union,that they have approached the minister or requested the minister for a mediator. Can the minister comment on this and what his response to this request has been or will be? MR. SPEAKER: The hon .. Minister of Labour.

MR: ROUSSEAU: I had. a request from the .union, from the chief . negotiator for that unit, Mr. Ryan,· about a week ago and I met with him last Monday. They did ask for a mediator. I have decided at this time not· to appoint a mediator. But I have asked,besides a conciliation officer, ·Ted Blanchard, my deputy minister to keep in contact with both

June 7, 1978 Tape 4092 IB-3 MR. ROUSSEAU: sides and he has done that. Beyond that I would not like to make any further comment except the fact that daily contact is maintained between both sides and the department. MR. LUSH: A sup.plementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I understand.that the X ray and lab technicians have· e,mba.rked upon a rotating strike system and I am wondering what effect this is having on the particular hospitals concerned and more· particularly the general public because I am sure people from all around the Avalon Peninsula come to these hospitals for X rays and one thing and the other on appointment. I am just wondering whether there is any way of these people being notified of that or ~1hether they get here and find out that the X ray and lab technicians are on strike. I am sure this must be causing some inconvenience this way ..

So I am wondering if the minister can comment

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4093 RT-1 t!R. T. LUSH: on that and whether the general public would have some notification when they have appointments at the hospital. lfR. SPE.A..KER: Han. l-~inister. MP .. J. ROUSSEAU: I would assume that the hospitals can carry on for some time. Obviously, you know, it is a strike situation.

They have fulfilled all the requirements of the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, they are now in a legal position to strike, the hospitals are in a legal position to leek out ,if that be the case, so,that being the economic weapon that the union uses and it is a legitimate strike,then 1-1hat can be said? I think there is some inconvenience and ~~e have had a discussion Yith the union on this, the fact that seven days notice is given of a strike and then the strike may occur at any period.

After the vote is taken,they have to notify me.or the Vinister of Labour and HanpoYer that they have taken a strike vote and that they have done that, but anytime after the seven days of "'hich I am not:l.fied, they may take a strike and they r.>ay rotate, and it certainly does cause'some inconvenience because people do not kn01~ ~~hen it is going to come. J.t is more inconvenient, of course, to people outside of totm who. come in from outside of . tO\Jll but, you know, that is one of the problems in a strike situation.

If it is a rotating stril<e 1 they do not kno"' where it is going to be, but that is one of the situations I assume that my colleague, the l·linister of Health, !!!:l.ght be able to p,ive some i.ndicat:l.on of just •;hat the situation is in respect to the •d.thdrat··al of service. But J tVould '!ssume that there <·'OUld be enough supervisory personnel to do the job and I «ould assume in an emerg.ency situation I think that the x-ray and lab people "'ould come back and do - J. "'auld assume - I am not talking maybe that they ,.,auld not lei: an emergency or an urgent situation ·go by "'ithout doing something.

They are not that type of people. NP.. SPEAKER: Hen. member for Concept:l.on Bay South. . 1-:P. • J . N0LA1~: ~!r. Speaker, I •~auld like _to ask ,and the Hinister of Transportation may not be in a position to p,ive the answers to the questions I have no..;, l:ut maybe he could look it up. I t.·onder if the Minister. •10uld be good enough to provide me ,and. through ce the people

June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4093 RT-2 in the dist-rict,~vith a little information on what plar'.s they might have for CrHch' s Car Path off Thorburn Road t·•hich was so 'badly neglected, also r.unn' s Hill P.oad in Foxtrap, ar,d finally the bridge thR.t I have referred to l-.im .. on. numerous occasions on the main road going through Foxtrap that now looks like the bridge on the River K..-ai after the exploeyion.

So if he would be kind enough to give us some assurance of what he is _going to do about this, it ~auld certainly be appreciated unless he is in a position to give it to us right now we would. be enlightened. elf'.. SPEAKER: ~P.. r..;. D00DY : Han. Hinister. I .-ill certainly look into it. I will certainly take these very important items under consideration and press the officials in the Department of Transportation and Co~~unications to give them the urgent treatnent that they deserve. There was another road, I ~T.. J. F.oad? ~:n. w. rv~n • J. t·;R. J. think.

NCLft.N: r.nonY: ~:OLAN: NOLAN: !<as it Gribb's Road, or Grebe's - Critch's Path1 Critch's Car Path? Glebe Glebe Road. You forgot the Glebe r.oad. No. I did not. I mentioned it to you. That is right. But in vour public discourse a minute or ·two ;,go, the bon. member forgot to ·mention Glehe Road and I would like to bring that to the attention of the House too. We are looking at all these, Sir. And as for the bridge in Foxtrap, I remember it Hell.

I have done my best to destroy the old bridge, I have hit it at least three times myself and I am sure that many of the people of that great and historic part _of the Province have aided and abetted in the destruction of that monstrosity. Hopefully we will get the funding necessary to -replace it. It is probably ,with the possible exception of the St. Edward's Bi::_idge a little bit further up that road, tney are probably the only two remaining bridges of the old Topsail Highway that are still serving that road.

If they are not replaced this year they will certainly have to be done very, very shortly. 1•e are very,

June 7, 1978 Tape )lo. 4093 RT-3 ''P.. ~i. DOODY: very a1~are of it. It is a part of the Province that I knoto very 1-!ell having had the honour of representing :!.t for s0me time and certainly it is very close to my heart. Critch's Car Path Road and the Glebe Road,I must admit in all honesty, Sir, are not as· familiar to me, they were not part of the Harbour "lain district at that time but, nevertheless, they will get the attention and the immediate attention that they deserve. HR.. S . !lEARY : Sir. Mt. SP~ ...:."!R. S.

NEARY: OP~ERS OF THE DAY Sir, I would like to rise on a point of privilege, Point of privilege. }lr. Speaker, I do not knm~ whether it is the hon. Premier's imagination, Sir, or some psychological quirk that the hon. gentleman has,but he seems to want to blame everything in this Province, Sir, on a }!r. John C. Doyle. If the matter is raised such as the scandal at the Health Science Comple·x, blame it on Doyle. The Tory Party issuing cheques for income tax purposes, blame it·on Doyle. Public 1-!orks scandal, blame it on Doyle. "Fisheries scandal, blame it en Doyle. Davidson scandal, blame it on Doyle.

Dobbin affair - !"1'.. SPElJ'ER: Order, please! Order, please! I ·must point out to the hon. gentleman that the matter of privilege must affect hon. members. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, Sir. I am coming - }!F .• SPF.A.I{ER: If ~-!r. Doyle feels any infringement, he would have to use another foru~. It would have to. affect a member. HR. S. NEARY: No, Sir. No, no. But I am comi~g to it, Mr. Speaker, And the same way with the fire at Elizabeth T01~ers·, I understand that the Premier was almost ready to take to the airwaves and blame that on Doyle except that a couple of gentlemen

June 7, 1978 Tape 4094 MR. S. NEARY: outside this Province stopped him from n:aking a fool of himself and making himself the lau~hings~ock of the Provi~ce. And the hon. Premier, Sir, there about a little over a month ago tried to make arlin:< between the Opposition and myself and ~lr. Doyle by rushing into the House ~f'ith a little pi~c~ of infc rmation that· was passed on by a gentleman at the Cl\C stating that t~r. Charlie Silver had paid my transportation to :uami. The hon. the Premier thought he had a little mini scandal.

Hell, Sir, in order to explode thet falsehood, that myth1 and in order to destroy any evidence in the Premi~r's mind or anything in his imagination that may - where he may try to establish a link between the Opposition via l1r. Silver or anybody to l·{r. Doyle, Sir, I ~4ould like to lay upon the table of the House documents, Sir. One is a letter dated ::ay 3, 19 78- and I hope that the hon. Premier stand in his place, Sir, and aplogize to the House and forever put this out of his mind,that the hon. gentleman D1t1.:. cannot answer· 'charges by blaming everything on t~r. Doyle.

These will not evaporate.Jhey have to be faced up to by the administration and they are not going to be swept under the carpet with· that kind of ~•eak defence. It says;'Dear C.harlie"-this is t·'ay 3, 1978 "!:lear Charlie: Many· thanks for your generosity and thoughtful kindness in teeing up for me the trip t.o the Florida conference last weekend. Since my colleagues in caucus have found.the result of that conference helpful in tying together the loose ends of matters here, , they insist upon footing the bill for the travel expenses i~volved.

Accordingly I am enclosing a cheque in the amount of $570 to reimburse you for th~ outlay involved. Thank you again for your · helpfulness." AN HON . ~'E}$ER: ~IR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ·so~m HON. 1!mffiERS: for a constant supporter. Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! -.

,. .. .. June 7, 1978 Tape 4094 DW - 2 smrr:: HON. ~'E!·lBE!I.S: Oh, oh! l·!Jl. H. ROPE: Supporting what? Uncovering crookedness, yes. S0:1E HON . HE11BERS : Oh, oh! }ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! !-!R • H. ROHE : Crookedness, yes. \,nat about your buddy in Cabinet? You are still in there :·!R. NEARY : ~!r. Speaker, if the hen. gentleman ~~ill just restrain himself .for a moment so that there will be no connection,so tha': the Pree1ier o::- none of his ministers, Sir, will ever again be able to make a connection between the Opposition - lu'-' RON . ME!-lBER : Liberal Party. l:R.

NEARY: - between myself and }~r. Doyle that I hope this myth is exploded fore•Ter. I could not raise the matter before, Sir, because I had not recieved back a copy of the cancelled cheque. I received a copy of•the cancelled cheque yesterday or the day before, Sir, this is the earliest opportunity that I have had to lay it upon the table of the House. So I hope; Sir, that 1~e will never again hear anv accusations or ~~arges made by the Premier or any of his hench- men that there are puppets· in thi~ House for ~!r. noy,le because Mr. Silver happens to be a friend of mine and arranged a trip to Florida for me.

I ho~e, Sir, that is gone forever and I ~rould expect the Premier now to stand in his place - AN RON. !!ElffiER: (Inaudible) !1R • S • NEARY : -and admit, Sir, that he has to face up to these c!larges,that Nr. Doyle·was,4or Mr. Silver or anybody else was not in this. Province ~~hen this corruption took place , that the Premier hF.d banished 'ni s th d m ou an never wants to see him back here again for obvious reasons. And so, Sir, I lay this. documentation on the table of the House including the cancelled cheque and I hope that ,·.l:he Premier will apologize,

... June 7, 1978 Tape 4094 11R. S • NEARY: Sir, for his innuendoes and his smear tactics and his character assassination. SOXE HON. HEHBERS: :1R. SPEAKER: RREMIER HOORES: Hear, hear: The han. Premier. Hr. Speaker, lfr. l':harlie Silver,as the han. member lvell knOlo~s,is a good friend of Hr. Doyle's. ;_:e was his PR man for some tlventy years and I do not know but he stf.ll is. And I am rlelighterl that the Liberal Caucus has seen fit to pay for the trip after the fact,but I underline, Sir, that it was very much after the fact and not before SONE RON.

HDffiERS: Hear, hear: PREHIER '1-!00RES: - that this was done and that should be very well pointed out which only goes to show, Sir, I ~1ould sup;gest that the Liberal Caucus or a lot of them are very upset about some of the ~ontact~and behaviors that have been made on the other side. SOME RON·. HE!-!llERS: Hear, hear: PREHIER l!QORES: The fact is, Sir, I am sure the han. member for LaPoile will get up and say that no trips have been paid for by Nr.Silver or Hr. Doyle he hAs tAken in the last two years. I am sure that he will aiso get up ancl. prove to us tha,t llr.

Doyle through various r.ontacts has no influence to him and I am sure, Sir, he would also lil~e to say that under no circumstances ~r. ~oyle or any of his friends or colleagues contributed to his leadership campaign. l1R. SPEAKER: Order·, please: Orc!er, please: I IY!sh to now dispense of this matter. ,\ point of privilege under 1o~hich han. members address the House is a matter, as has been· used in the House before,which Hay refers to page 343, "In regard to the explanation of personal matters the House is usually inrlulgent · and lvill permit a statement of that character to have been made without any Dl·l - 3

,. June 7, 1978 Tape 4095 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: question being before the House~1 and later on, 11 ~0 debate should ensue thereon. If another member is involved in a personal statement he is generally allo~1ed to give his own view of the matter and say whether he accepts it or not:' That is what has now transpired and the matter is not one on which the Chair has a ruling to make but comes under the classification of personal explanation. MR. NEARY: On a point of privilege, Sir, of the House. MR. SPEAKER: In addition? Another? 'MR. NEARY: No, another point of privilege, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, now that this matter has been cleared up, Sir, and I hope to the han. the Premier's satisfaction although judging by his snide remarks the han. gentleman just made, and I answered that before, Sir, by the way,by telling the han. the Premier that I am quite prepared at any time to put my own personal financial statement of everything that I own in this world, my own leadership statement, I am prepared to put it all on the table of th~ House providing the Premier will do the . same thing. Now, Sir, that is fair enough.

If the han. the Premier will put his statement on the table of the House,I will lay mine on the table of the House and that is fair enough, I think, Mr. Speaker. So I hope we hear no more about that sort of smear tactic. I am quite prepared to do it. have the financial statement ready,and willing and I am able to put it on the table of the House anytime but I do not think it would be fair, Sir, to do it unless the Premier would lay his. statement on the table of the House about his leadership expenses, about the 1971 and 1972 campaign expenses and money that Mr.

George Mclean has raised outside of this Province for.the han. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out that we are not an~~here in the area of privilege or even the extension of it, in the area of personal explanation. It.appears to me to be perhaps a debatable matter in which an appropriate motion no doubt may very soon be before the House. So I would ask the han. gentleman to bring his remarks to a conclusion.

,, June 7, 1978 Tape 4095 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Mr. Speaker, just to clue up on that particular po1nt, Sir, that have nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of, and if the han. the Premier has nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of then he will join with me in laying on the Table of this House all of the documentation in connection 1~hich the hen. gentleman raised. Now, Mr. Speaker, ~1e have a minister sitting in this House, Sir, who had his expenses paid by Mr. John Doyle to Nassau and to Panama City. Now, Nr.

Speaker, that gentleman can no longer sit in the Cabinet,as far as I am concerned, as far as my colleagues are concerned, Sir, without a proper explanation from the Premier of this Province of what that trip was all about. And I understand, Sir, from a recent television rrogramme that the Premier was aware that his minister was going to Nassau ard going to Panama City, that it was done with the blessing of the Premier. And I am also aware, Sir, that the Premier was trying to make a deal a year or two or three ago with Mr. Doyle through a Mr. George Mclean, and I am also aware of a lot of other things.

So I believe now, Sir, it is incumbent upon the Premier of this Province to clear the air, and.to make a statement to this House, and to the people of this Province; number one, has the government, has the Premier reimbursed the Minister of Industrial Development for his expenses, the same as·my colleagues have done, reimbursed the minister, Sir, - MR. 'MORGAN: This is a matter for tbe Question Period. 'MR. NEARY: No,this .is a minister of the Crown n01·1 who is in. a conflict of interest situation, who is in a situation of influence peddling, there are all kinds of possibilities. . · ~1R.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ must ·point out that' the matter the hon. gentleman is now involved fin may,under · appropriate motion. be matters for ·debate, may under Question Period be matters for oral or written questions. There may be other areas, but to found the matter of privilege,! am not aware of any area of privilege. So I would ask

.. .. June 7, 1978 Mr. Speaker: AN Hm1 • MEMBER: MR: SPEAKER: Tape 4095 the hon. gentleman to bring his remarks - To the poi.nt. .PK .,. 3 - yes, to the point and to conclude the remarks in the relatively near future. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir . The main point is this, Sir, the hon: the Premier has accused Mr. Doyle of being a fugitive from Justice. NO\v I want to ask the hon. gentleman, Sir, how he can condone his minister, and the Premier himself in telephone conversations talking to this gentleman in the last year or two, how can the hon. gentleman explain that to the people of this Province?

PREMIER MOORES: Explain what? MR. NEARY: Condoning his minister•.cavorting with a gentleman that. the hon. the Premier has accused of being a fugiti~e from Justice. believe, Sir, the Premier O\'tes this House, and owe the people of this Province - . ·soME HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR: NEARY: - an· explanation, Sir, of this matter. AN ~ON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) th~ big investor in the Liberal Party! · MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Is that so? The big investment is on that side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: If my hon. friend only knew, if my hon. friend only knew what the Premier was trying to do with Mr. Doyle. SOME'HON. 'MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please! MR; NEARY: If my hon. friend only knew the shakedO\~n and the ripoff - MR; SPEAkER: ·Order, please!

-. June 7, 1978 Tape No. 4096 MR. SPEAKER: Order,- please! Order, please! I have to point out to han. members on both sides that our procedures are only capable of certain elastici~y and then they break. So I t-~ould ask hon. members to bear that in mind, and if t;1ey break I am not sure what it is to replace them. I do not know and the House Hill have to .decide that. So I would point that out to hon. me~bers, and I would ask the hon. gentleman to conclude. ~!R •. ~lEARY: Sir, I conclude by calling upon the Premier, Sir, to give this House an explanation, otherwise,.

Sir, that dark cloud is going to. hang over the government, over the Premier's head, over the head of the ~!inister of Industrial Devrdopment. ~lhy did the government send the :.finister of Industrial Development, trlth the Premier's blessing, to consult with l1r. Doyle? What was the purpose of the visit~ t•as it to make some kind of a deal? I thinl~ the Premier, Sir, should clear the air and make a statement in this House and then tell the House whether or not the government members are going to do the same thing as my colleagues did, reimburse the hon. gentleman for his trip~ AN RON. MEl1BER: ~.

SPEAKER: PRD-!IER NOOP.ES: Right. The hon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear the hon. member substantiate what i have already said about Mr. Charlie Silver and the conscience once again of the Liberal caucus t•hich I am delighted to see. The government C.id not send the hon. ~!inister of Industrial Development down to Panama, Sir, and I suggest when all the cases are tried in the courts it .will be well knotm exactly who is behind •.•hat in this Province. HR. NEARY: · That is for sure.

.. J'une 7, 1978 Tape No. 4096 NM - 2 PREMIER }!GORES: As far a~ shaking do\·m llr. Doyle is c:onc:erned, Sir, there iE no question about that. He ~ras shaken do\.;n by this government when the Julienee rights were taken bac:k and when the rights on Labrador •,;ere taken bac:k and they \·lill be done agai:1. SOME HO:T. ~lE}!BERS: Hear, hear! · .A.N HON. ME}!BER: (Inaudible) Liberal Party. HR. SPE.AKER: Order, please! Order, please! :1R. NEARY: ~lr. Shaheen and the Japanese and George l.fcLean. NR. SPEAKEF.: Order, please! P~IER NOORES: ~r. Speaker, the man is very upset.

He must have a terrific: obligation which he is not telling us about. He certainly is very, very sensitive. MR. NE.ARY: Hy obligation is to the people who put me in the House - PREMIER MOORES : The fac:t is, Sir·, I ~tould like - MR. NE.ARY: -not to the sku~ks (inaudible). MR. HICKllk'l: Order! Order! :'Cl.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PRElUER c!OORES: Surely the hon. member, Sir, would also say that if there are any other: trips that should be paid for by his c:auc:us. ine member for Conc:eption,Bay South (Mr. Nolan), I suppose I he paid for his trip.

I have every intention, Sir, that the people of this Province will not l-.no1v just the innuendo and smear that has ·been in this House. I have every intention that they· \vill know a great ·deal more than that and all the facts. MR. m:A.RY: And that is \vhat we want. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It being Private :·!embers Day I an - HR • m:ARY: Investigations (inaudible) • :m. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

June 7, 1978 c·lR. NEARY: i·P" SPEAKER: Tape No. 4096 And the Bill Saunders