VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GE~illRAL ASSEHBLY OF NEI 17FOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMLBY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m . THURSDAY, ~JL~CH 15, 1984 NO. 4

March 15, 1984 The House met at 3:00 ~.m. Hr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) Tape No. 120 M.J - 1 Order, please! Before we get into the Question Period, there were certain points of order raised yesterday during the Question Period which perhaps could have some reflection upon today's Question Period, so I thought that I might make the rulings pertaining thereto before the start of today's Question Period. After looking at the transcripts,I think there are really two issues that were raised yesterday.

One,;£ course,is to whether or not there was anything unparliamentary said by the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) 1 and the other, the right of the Premier or any other minister to transfer a question to another minister. I shall deal with the unparliamentary language aspect first. In looking at the transcript;there was a comment made by the han. the member for Port au Port 1 and I shall read the comment and request the han. member to withdnaw it. It is on Tape 8'. The hon. the member for Port au Port said, 'And all I am asking is for some justice for us in this House, Mr.

Speaker.' I think that is casting some reflection on the Chair in thau the Chair is not treating the Opposition people the same as he is treating the people on the government side.; I would ask the han. member to withdraw that comment. MR. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, I would never wish to cast aspersions on the Chair. I understand that the Chair must be impartial and that we must respect the Chair. It was just an off day yesterday, ~tr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 324

March 15, 1984 Tape 121 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The other issue raised, of course, was the matter of transferring the answer to a question from one minister to another. I did have some research done into the point which was raised by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), not so much, perhaps, of transferring to another minister, as to whether or not the other minister continues to answer the question unless there is leave. And in doing some research on this,I find that both have been done in the past.

There has been a ruling that when an objection was made by the Opposition to a second minister, if you will, giving further information- it was objected to by the Opposition­ and the Speaker then ruled in essence that the second minister could not continue with the answers. There was also another occasion~ and I am looking at November 17, 1981, November 28, 1983, and December 2, 1983-when no objection was raised to the speaker. On another occasion there was some objection,but the Speaker continued to recognize the second minister,if you will 1 as I did when I recognized the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) yesterday. Maybe we could make some kind of a decision on this and perhaps the best way to do it would be if a minister wishes to transfer to another minister, then .' maybe if the Opposition is willing to go along with it 1 sobeit 1 and if not then it might have to be done by consent. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: ORAL QUESTIONS The han. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins. Has the Minister of Finance taken into account what the recently announced wage freeze for public servants will do for the economy? What sort of a dampening 325

March 15, 1984 Tape 121 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: affect will the freeze and the Premier's call for restraint have on con s umer spending in the Province? Has there been any studies done by his aepartment to determine the affects of the restraint programme? MR. SPR~KER (Russell): The hon . Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS : Mr . Speaker , usually the date of the Budget is given in the House in response to a question from the Opposition, but it was not app ropriate this year to a.wait that time .

Events really required t hat the date of the Budget be announced at an earlier date and that 1.,ras done and the hon. m:em.Oer I think is aware that the date of the Budget will be on the 20th . 1 next Tuesday . ~~d, of course, the answer to the question he poses will be one of the elements in the Budget announcement . 326

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 122 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russel:) MR. HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Port. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I do not think that the minister answered that question.I asked about the dampening effect on the economy of that wage freeze. I do not think that has anytuing to do with the budget since that freeze has already been put into effect. But I would say that the minist~r has been shown in the past with the 12 per cent sales tax, that the 12 per cent sales tax did dampen the economy somewhat and threw his projections off. I will ask him another question.

Will the minister meet with the unions to negotiate a fair restraint programme? MR. SPEAKER: D:R. COLLINS: The han. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. member's initial comments, you know, I think one could pick a single eleme~t out of the financial management of the Province and say, 'This is having a dampening or a stimulative affect on the economy'. But, of course, that is not a sensible thing to do. You have to take the whole packet together and this is what I meant ,that when the budget comes down we will be putting in place our whole approach to the economy over the next twelve months.

And one of the elements th.at will l:e involved in that disposition will be our restraint programme. But that will be only one of the elements in the whole packet we will place before the House in regard to the budgeting for the provincial economy,at least for the government's aspect of the provincial economy, but also the effects on the total economy resulting from the government~s action. That will be all laid out in the Budget Speech.

In regard to meeting with the unions, the hon. member, I am S'Ure, is aware that my responsibility as President of the Treasury Board is to be ultimately in charge of the collective bargaining on behalf 327

March 15, 1984 Tape No . 122 so - 2 DR. COLLINS: of government for ~~e public service union organizations . And in that process there are a bQdy of officials who do a great deal of background work, a great deal of the spade t·Tork, and they meet very frequently wi t.h members of unions, lvi th the negotiating teams of unions, ofte.n with i:nd~vidual members of the uni·ons, and not only unions but other organizations . For example , ~.;e have an organization related to management public employees who are 328

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 123 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: not really unionized but nevertheless they have an association in their own employment interest. And these officials meet with them very frequently and, as need be 1 I am also brought into discussions. I have no problem whatever at any point in time in sitting down with the representatives of the unions, or with the organizations of public employees,but I do it in the context of a laid-out approach that in the first instance is worked out between officials on our side and our collective bargaining

section of Treasury Board and the off~cial representives of the employees' unions themselves. MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: au Port. MR. HODDER: The hon. member for Port A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Well,I can take from that that the minister has not looked at the effects of the restraint programme as far as his department is concerned and his projections,and that only his officials meet with unions. And I guess the fifteen minute briefing prior to the restraint was about all they could expect to get. I am going to ask the minister another question.

Has the minister or the government ever done a study of the civil service to see how money could be saved and the public service made more efficient? Is it not a fact that there are many bureaucracies within the civil service? Has the government ever looked at the civil service anc done a study of the civil service in the past number of years? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is wondering if we have done,shall we say, efficiency studies and that type of thing. We have 329

March 15, 1984 Tape No . 123 DR . COLLINS : in Treasury Board various divisions, one of them is the 0 and M, Operations and Management Division . This div i sion of Treasury Board , frequently on request from a department or age ncy of government, but al s o sometimes on ~neir mm , wi ll review a particular government o peration; they will,a ri sing out of that review , NM - 2 often make recomm e ndations and they will then often help with the implementation of those recommendations .

So \ole have an in-house mechan i sm for use as need be but a lso upon direction by Cabine t or by Trea s ury Board . ~e have an in - house mechanism f o r doing what the hon . member is alluding to . In addition to that , hon . members ma y k now tha t, unde r the impe t us of t che Premie r ' s de·sire 1 t a ere h a s b een a n approaeh ma de to revie•11ing the uppe r c ivi l serv ice e xecu tive b r anch . MR . HODDER: By whom? DR. COLLINS: There will be assessments there. These are done through Cabinet 330

March 15,1984 Tape No. 124 ah-1 DR.COLLI NS: mechanisms in which the Premier himself is involved. And these are essentially to find the best means of using the very extensive expertise we do have in the executive echelon of the public service. So that is another mechanism for review and encouragement and enhancement of the publi::: service. MR.HODDER: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Port au Port. MR.HODDER: Hr. Speaker. The han. member for A new question, Hr.Speaker.

I must say from the minister's answer it seems to me that the civil service is a like a person studying his own navel because obviously it is ci vil servants studying the civil service. On another question, could the minister tell me what the word 'freeze' means? Will vacancies be filled? Will they be left open? Will the wage freeze work by attrition? Will people not be reJ?laced, for instance, \'!: 1en they leave, retire or die? Will there be positions filled or eliminated? MR. WARREN: callous. HR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The freeze is cruel and The hon. Hinister of Finance. Hr.

Speaker, we seldom keep a public servant in place if he has died. MR.HODDER: I was talking about his position. MR. WARREN: there now. DR.COLLINS: There are forty-four over But apart from that, Hr. Speaker, the word 'freeze' I think is an unfortunate term really, but I suppose it has got into the popular parlance and it just means that things are sort of 331

March 15,1984 Tape No . 124 ah -2 DR . COLLINS: not aevancing . I am not certain if the hon . member was referring to the wage aspect of things or the employment aspect of things . MR.HODDER: DR .COLLINS : MR . HODDER: The employment aspect . The employment aspect . What do you do if a person dies? Do you replace his position? DR .COLLINS : If a person dies, sometimes one of my colleagues takes care of things . MR .NEARY : The whole administration is dead and they hav e not buried them yet . The voters will bury them in the next election . MR .HODDER : Do you fill his position? SOME HON .MEMB ERS: Oh, oh !

MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : Orde r, please ! DR .COLLINS: In the publi c service, if an individual either resigns or retires or if unfortunately he oth e~~ ise leaves the serv ic e, we assess whether hi s post needs to be filled immediately in the interest of good mana gem ent and the int er est of the continuation of essential 332

r1arch 15, 1984 Tape 125 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: services. If that is the case, that post obviously will be filled,and it can be filled in a number of ways; it can be filled on a temporary basis or it can be filled on a permanent ~asis. On the other hand, there are other posts which are of a more discretionary nature and, under the present restraint conditions, Y.Te look at those very, very closely. And we have made a policy and, of course, it has been made public already. SOME HON. MEMBE:::tS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! DR.

COLLINS: We have tended not to fill these more discretionary posts in the interests of restraints in the last number of years. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. ~'ffi. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, from what I can gather from the minister, if you read between the lines of what he said, when people leave the public service, for whatever reason, politically the government is deciding who goes and who stays. I have noticed lately that there was hired an assistant deputy minister \:ho is receiving a handsome pension from a large national Crown corporation.

Is this the policy of the govern­ ment or could t:ley not find someone of the same calibre who was in need? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: ~rr. Speaker, I think I would like a few more specifics on that. I am not exactly certain to whom the han. member is referring or to what post he is referring. 333

March 15, 1984 MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Ru.ssell): au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 125 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Port Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism who just retired with a handsome pension from Air Canada and was hired within days. Is this the policy of the government, that this is the type of individuals that you hire? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, this Province is extremely fortunate in having a minister responsible for Tourism who is the envy of all other provinces. He has all aspects of tourism at his fingertips.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! DR. COLLINS: · He can answer a question about it, not only with regard to this Province but indeed for the whole of North America, if not beyond. So I would like to suggest,if I do have permission 1 that I ask my hon. colleague, the Minister of Development (Hr. vhndsor) to supply that answer. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Port I just want to ask the minister again, is it the policy of the government to hire people who are retired rather than other people?

I am sure we have enough good people i.n this Province to fill posts such a.s that. 334

March 15, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 126 MJ - 1 The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I think if the hon. member really wanted the information he was looking for 1 he would have gone along with my suggestion that the hon. the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) answer the query he put to me. However, if he does not want to do that and he wants to get into the broader question of how we hire, in the public service for permanent positions we have in place a Public Service Cornnission which does all the hirings with very ve:ry - MR. HODDEP.: SOME HON. HEMBERS: HR.

NEARY: Yes. l'Je have heard about them. Oh, oh! The Ombudsman told us all about that, about how the r-1inister of Fisheries hires thei'l. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order,please! Order, please! I must insist that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence, There are two or three members to my right who seem to persist in interrupting. I would ask them to extend the courtesy to hon. members who do have the right to be heard in silence. DR. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, on behalf of some of the members opposite I apologize to the Chair. ~·Ji tn very 1 very rare exceptions the Public Service Commission performs the task of selecting people to fill vacancies in the public service• They do that by and large - I am not a member of the commission and so on and so forth-but I am sure that by and large they do that on the basis of merit. There are certain positions in the public service, an ~~M or equivalent and above,which are filled otherwise, but those are filled after a very detailed search and analysis.

As I say 1permanent positions in the public service by and large are filled by the Public Service 335

March 15, 1984 DR. COLLINS: on a merit basis. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Port. Tape No. 126 MJ - 2 Commission and that is done Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Port au MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the majority are hired by the Public Service Commission,but it is not much trouble to wander around through government departments here and find political appointees in jobs which are not necessarily political. Mr. Speaker, another question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) would be that the Premier has said there will be no layoffs. Is this so? ~auld the minister confirm or deny it?

If not,would he tell me how many people will be laid off. MR. SPE~~ER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, if I recall correctly the hon. member referred to the alternative of bringing in restraints in the form that we did, : or be faced with another mechanism of achieving our budgetary objectives~ that is 1 to engage in massive layoffs or sizeable layoffs or significant layoffs. I do not believe that the hon. the Prem~~r mentione0 no layoffs. He said no 'significant' or ':major' layof fs or sorre such term.

If the hon. member has evidence to the contrary, that I am not quoting the Premier correctly ,I will be glad to see his evidence 1 but that is how I recall his remark. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA..T<ER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. 336

March 15, 1984 Tape 127 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that the Premier came on television and said he had one choice or another choice, one was layoffs and one was not. Now I asked the minister· would there be layoffs? Obviously from the answer to the question there will be layoffs. What I would like to ask the minister is where will the layoffs occur? For instance, I would ask him about janitorial services in the Confederation Building and other buildings throughout the Province.

I understand that here in this building perhaps it is done on a contractual service, but others are not, and that cleaning is now do~~ to three days a week instead of five days a week. Now could the minister tell me how many people in cleaning services have been laid off throughout district vocational schools and any other buildings run by the Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. WARREN: He does not know. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) is quite correct, I do not know.

I do not know what the arrangement is in the district vocational schools. I do know in this building here it is on a contractual basis and we have no way of knowing what a contractor will do in terms of the number of employees that he engages. A contractor will bid for a contract and he will get the contract and then he will supply the number of employees that he feels can fulfil the contract. T~ose employees, of course, are not public servants, either permanent or temporary, so we have no way of knowing what the contractor will do with the number of employees that he engages. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Port au Port. 337

March 15, 1984 Tape 127 PK - 2 MR. HODDER : ~x . Speaker, whether the minister wants to admit it or not, if the government decides that three cleanings a week are sufficient, obviously somebody is out of work or the contractor would be pretty inefficient, so I stand by my statement on contractual employees . I would like to ask the minister if he kno\o~s whet her there will be layoffs in the Department of Transportation and Communications? MR. SPEAKE~ (~ussell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr .

Speaker, we are sensitive to the knowledge that any work that government gives out, esp ecially work that is generated for its own functioning has a rel ation shi p to employment . But, nevertheless, our primary purpose in giving out work is to get the work done and to get it done effi ciently and economically . So we do not give out contracts for cleaning, or otherwise, primarily designed to maximize employment and I do not think anyone expects us to do that. We give out a contract to get a certain piece 338

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 128 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: of work done and,hopefully 1 to get it done in the best interest of the Public Treasury. Now in regard to transportation - are there any layoffs? - I am not the Minister of Transportation, The hon. member may wish to direct a question there,but,in case he does not 1 my understanding is that there are periods of employment in regard to transportation, out the year 1 somewhat related to the seasons of the year. So there are times when there are hirings and there are times that there are layoffs.

This is a cyclical thing and it has been going on for years and years and years, and I would imagine it will go on for years and years to come. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Rus -sell): for Port au Port. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe what I am hearing. I am going to give the minister another chance. There are temporary workers who work with the Department of Transportation and Communications who have been temporary workers for six or seven years.

Can the minister confirm or deny whether temporary workers of six or seven years duration have been given layoff notices? MR. SPEAXER: DR. COLLINS: The han. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, again if the hon. member wants s-pecifics 1 I sugges·t he go to the Minister of Transportation CMr. Dawe)_. MR. HODDER: Where they any? DR. COLLINS~ If h.e wants the general approach to the thing 1 I would say that if there are temporary workers - - laid off, those are temporary workers who are no longer required to carry out the duties and the functions of the department. MR. HODDER~ H.ow many? 339

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 128 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: And if there are temporary workers who are not laid off, I presume the reason why they are not laid off is they are still required to carry on the jobs that the Department of Transportation has to do. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Port au Port. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. member MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, what we are seeing here is a minister who obviously knows that there are layoffs all throughout the civil service and the government has decided that they are going to try to keep it secret.

I know what a seasonal basis is and I know that the Department of Transportation and Communications has seasonal workers. I am not talking about thos ·e. The minister knows what I am talking about so I will not ask another question on it. But I would ask the minister this: We have noticed that whenever there is a wage freeze in the public service those at the senior level are reclassified upwards, as has happened just recently. The government always knows before anyone else that a freeze is coming and you always see the reclassifications in the senior civil service.

This has happened recently to the senior civil s-ervants and those people have been reclassified. I would like to ask the minister will this trend continue? 340

March 15, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 129 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I do not know the exact number but I think the number of people employed in the public service in one form or another numbers about 25,000 or 30,000 people. When you have that number of people in an employment structure you know that with jobs being changed, with programmes being changed, with any number cf things being changed, that you have to be continually looking at their terms of employment, and for that very reason we have another division in Treasury Board.

I do not want to give the impression that Treasury Board is an enormous bureacracy, it is not, it is a very slimmed-down bureaucracy, but nevertheless we do have certain divisions in it, and another division in it is Classification and Pay, These people employed in Classification and Pay, their job is to respond to needs to reclassify. And obviously if you have 25,000 people they are going to have quite a number of reclassifications to do from time to time. I can tell the han. member,though,that there has been no increase in that activity.

We carry on year in, year out, month in, month out, reclassifications that are required by the very large number of public employees in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The han. member for You know, Mr. Speaker, trying to get information from the minister is like trying to pull hens 1 teeth. we live in this environment as well as the minister,and we have been quite observant that every time there is a wage freeze of any sort there is 341

Q March 15, 1984 Tape No. 129 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: a round of reclassifications among senior civil servants. I was going to ask the minister how many this time 1 but I know I will not get a.n answer, I have another question for him~ whether he believes that the restraint programmes -and I consider this a very important question-whether he believes that the restraint programme should be applied evenly through­ out the civil service? In other words ,does he believe that those people who are on the lower level should receive the same type of restraint measure~ as those on the higher level?

Does he think that a person making,say 1 $11,000 with the public service should be frozen in the same manner as someone who makes $60,000 or $70,000 with the civil service? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to categorically deny that there has been any plan, programme, move, undertaking, whatever, to reclassify senior public servants in anticipation of a wage freeze. That is an absolute perversion of the truth. MR. WARREN: It was done. DR.

COLLINS: There are classifications that go on, necessary classifications; they have gone on in the past, they are going on at the present, they will go on in the future. But there is 342

March 15, 1984 Tape 130 EC - 1 DR. COLLI NS: absolutel y no pl an, undertaking or anothing of that order to undertake reclassifications purely because some sort of freeze is coming in. And to make that suggestion, I think, is to cast a slur on the upper echelon of the public service, and the upper echeJ m of the public service of this Province is something that the people of this Province should be proud of.

There are very many excellent people in the upper echelon of our public service, and to cast a slur on them that somehow or other they will manoeuver around, they will lend themselves to manoeuvering and to try to overcome a freeze that is supposed to be applied to all public servants in as equitable a fashion as possible, I think is something , to be deprecated and I deny it on their behalf most vigourously. With regard to the other aspect of the question, whether things are done equitably, yes, they are done equitably.

It is difficult when you have such a large group of people involved in a programme such as restraint to ~ake care, I am sure, of every individual's needs. I am sure you could find any single person who says, 'My particular circumstances mean that this restraint programme is harder on me than some other person with another particular circumstance.' It is impossible to do that type of thing. But our restrai~t programme is applied as equitably as we possibly can do it. MR. HODDER: :Ytr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell): The han. the member for Port au Port. MR.

HODDEP.: I would like to say to the ministe~ in response to the first half of his answer, that I would like to see the ~inister at some future point table the number of reclassifications since the provincial 'five and 343

~1arch 15, 1984 Tape 130 EC - 2 MR . HODDER: four' programm e and ?rior to this latest freeze . I would like to see the minister table that . Secondly, Mr. Speaker, if the minister considers it equitable to freeze the salaries of those \.,ho are at the lower scale of tl.: civil service the same as those at the top, I thi~~ that the thinking of the administration is very, very conservative . ~. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Very narrow . Very narrow . ~~ - Speaker, I would like to ask the minister about the vocational schools.

I would like to ask him , Is the administration planning the closure o£ any vocational schools or are they planning changes in status and are they planning to close out programmes in some vocational schools across the Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR . COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do have to comment on the fact that th e Opposition seem to have some game plan underway that I do not understand. I mean, "'hY are asking me particularly about vocational schools? You know, I have, as a member of Cabinet, 34 4

March 15,1984 Tape No. 131 ah-1 DR.COLLINS: a responsibility to keep up what is going on in all aspects of go vernment,and I hope I do it. But,on the other hand,if the hon. member really was looking for detailed,specific information he would not come to me, he wogld go to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge). And similarly, I would hope,that if he wanted to find out something in detail about the Department of Finance,he would not go to the Minister of Education he would come to me. MR.HODDER: with hospital closures. DR.

COLLINS: So you have nothing to do Now why they do not want to do that is because of some obscure reason that I am sure I cannot quitefathom but there must be some reason to it. MR.HODDER: DR. COLLINS: getting specific answers - MR. HODDER: Treasury Board? DR. COLLINS: in those fields because Do you sit in Cabinet?

It may be that they fear Are you President of the -from people most knowledgeable it might be shown up that their questions are so naive and ill pointed that they are ridiculous,so they try to go to other ministers who cannot be expected to have the information in detail that the ministers responsible for those departments have at their fingertips. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): The hon.member for Port au Port. 345

March 15,1984 Tape No. 131 ah-2 MR.HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a final question. We can see what is wrong with the government when the man who handles the money , who handles the financial responsibilities of this government, the person who must handle the restraint program of this government, cannot give answers onwhether vocational schools will change their status. And,by the wav .I am very suspicious, Mr. Speaker, that that minister knows exactly the answer to those things. That is not a question that is a statement. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

MR.NEARY: A supplementary. I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) 1 as a follow-up to the question put by my hon. colleague , will there be any cutbacks at the vocational training schools, will there be any layoffs in the vocational training system, will any of the schools change their I status in the forseeable future or will any of them be closed? Now there are four questions in one. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this administration has pledged to continue operating all sixteen district vocational schools around this Province.

SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS.VERGE: And not only that, Mr. Speaker, this administration has been improving programme offerings in each of those sixteen schools- SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 346

March 15,1984 Tape No. 131 ah-3 MS VERGE: -by responding to the changing labour market conditions. New programmes have been added in several of the schools and some of the older programmes 1 347

March 15, 1984 Tape 132 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: which have been considered irrelevant to current conditions, have been phased out. There has been a trend of introducing in vocational schools two and three year programmes which formerly were available only in the capital,in St. John's. So, Mr. Speaker, there is no dou~t that this administration has a firm commitment to vocational and technical ,as well as technological education in this Province and will continue to provide the necessary resources to all fifteen of our district vocational schools. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to get the hon. minister on the record. Is the hon. minister saying definitely that there will be no layoffs in the vocational school system? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, what I said is that this administration will provide to all our vocational schools, sixteen in number, the resources they need to do the job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ah, ah! MS. VERGE: To do the job they are going to have to gradually change - MR. HODDER: You just answered our question. Sit down! MS.

VERGE: - their list of courses as has happened over the last three or four years. There will have to be introduced some more sophisticated,skilled training courses which are in high demand by employers. There will have to be phased out some of the shorter trades training prograrmes. MR. NEARY: A simple yes or no answer, will there be layoffs? Yes or no. MS. VERGE: - providing skills which are in adequate supply. ,, n ..J'iU

March 15, 1984 Tape 132 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, again we are getting the long-winded a~swers from ministers who are against the rules of this House. My question required a simple yes or no answer. Will there be layoffs in the vocational system? MR. WARREN: Yes or no. MR. NEARY: Yes or no, that is what I am asking the minister. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier to that point of order.

PREMIER PECKFORD: The Leader of tre Oppostion (Mr. Neary) obviously does not want to hear a very, very informed answer to a question concerning how the education needs MR. NEARY: It is either yes or no. PREMIER PECKFORD: - of this Province are changing. You have some of the old trades where there are now no jobs that are now phasing out and we have new prograrrrnes to stimulate hiring of more - MR. NEARY: Will there be layoffs? That is what we are asking the minister. PREMIER PECKFORD: - pE>ople. So the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) is trying to educate the Leader of the Opposition in the - MR.

NEARY: It required a simple yes or no answer,that is all. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - =urse that higher education is going ----.---- to take in this Province in the future. And I firmly l::elieve tbat the - - - - - Leader of the Opposition should listen very closely, Mr. Speaker. 349

March 15, 1984 SOME RON . MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER (Russell): P~~IER PECKFORD: (Ms . Verge) has to say (Hr . ~eary) might learn - MR . NEARY : PREMIER PECKFORD : Tape 132 PK - 3 Oh, oh! Order, please ! - to what the Minister of Education because the Leader of the Opposition Yes or no 1 will there be layoffs? - that education training is changing -· 350

March 15, 1984 MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD : Tape No. 133 ~J - l Will there be layoffs, yes or no? - in this societv and therefore there are qoinq to be lavof"f"s i'lnd there are goinq to be hirings. MR. NEARY: All the a.ns\·Jer we require is a ~ i.rrlple yes or no. HR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFOFD: Order, please! Order, please! And I think it would be very wise for all legislators here to listen to what the I:-linister of Education (Hs. Verge) has to say about the changing needs of higher education in this Province. SOHE HON. 11EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Hear, hear! Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Op~osition (Mr. Neary) rose on a point of order to state that answers to questions should be as brief as oossible,and that is correct. I have to advise noN, of course,that the time for the Question Period has expired. DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: NOTICES OF HOTION ~~r. Speaker. The hon. the Hinister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means to consider raising of supply to be granted to Her Majesty; and I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain resolutions for the granting of supply to Her Majesty;and I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain resolutions on the granting of interim supply to Her Majesty. 351

March 15, 1984 Ta pe No. 133 MJ - 2 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR l-'7HICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Council. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the President of the HR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question 2 appearing on the Order Paper of yesterday in the name of the hon. the member for Mount Scio (M r. Barry).

The question was: "Details of any complaints the Directorate" - the Petroleum Directorate that is - "has received since January, 1980 concerning inadequate safety regulations on offshore oil rigs and supply vessels off Newfoundland's east coast." The answer is: The records of the Petroleum Directorate disclose ~o complaints concerning inadequate safety regulations prior to January 13, 1982 but since that time there were complaints of various nature,including one from the hon. member's le~r; when the hon. member indicated,I think,in that celebrated matter there in January of 1982 1 that there 'N'as a great oil spill in the Atlantic Ocean and when 1ve investigated we found that one and one half barrels had escaped into the moonpool, ~r.

Speaker. So I table that answer. Mr. Speaker, I also have the answer to Question 3 appearing on yesterday's Order Paper, also asked by the unelected Liberal in this House. These questions 1vere: "How much overtime \'laS worked by employees of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in 1983-84 and why?" Now 1983-84 is this year, Mr. Speaker, so we have assumed that the question was meant to cover overtime for the calendar year ending December 31, 19 8 3 and that is to which the ansv-1er responds, because we want to help the hon. members in asking questions accurately. - - And the answer is: During 1983 352

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 134 MR. MARSHALL: the total amount of overtime worked by employees of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro amounted to 70,070 hours. This work was associated with maintaining a reliable electrical system consisting of the Bay d'Espoir hydro­ electric plant, the Upper Salmon hydroelectric plant, the Hinds Lake hydroelectric plant, the Holyrood thermal generating plant, the Hardwood's gas turbine, the Stephenville gas turbine, 2,800 kilometers of transmission anddistribution lines, 42 separate diesel systems on the Island and in Labraaor, twenty-five terminal stations and, Mr.

Speaker, related administrative support. The total amount paid in overtime was $1,218,110 which represented 4.5 per cent of the total payroll for the year. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that that was significantly SD - 1 less than the previous years. Where an industry is supplying an essential service for twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year, it is excellent to confine the overtime to only 4.5 per cent of the total salary costs. And modesty precludes me, Mr.

Speaker, from observing,but I must observe because my officials have asked me to, that this represents a marked ~ improvement over what had occurred during the sojourn of my predecessor. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h.ear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I· also have the answer to question No. 4 asked yesterday by the same hon. gentleman, I certainly hope this does not cause him to weep. Mr.

Speaker, the question is: ''Details of the steps the Province has taken to ensure that cement manufactured in Newfoundland and Labrador will be of sufficient quality to be used in the possible construction of offshore concrete platforms in this Province for use in oil development off Newfoundland and Labrador: I will just read the answer; it 353

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 134 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: is not very long, it is very informative and I know the hon. gentlemen there opposite wish to be informed. The reply is, 'The cement requirements,both in terms of quantity and quality, necessary for the construction of a Hibernia gravity based platform, can be supplied by North Star Cememt .'' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: "Government in its ongoing consultationswith the oil industry have been advised of the volumes and quality of cement required for the Hibernia development.

Government officials have met frequently with officials of North Star Cememt to review this subject and are satisfied the company can meet these requirements. Additionally, Mr.

Speaker, government has been recently advised by one of the partners in the Hibernia field that a study by an independent consultant,which it sponsored, concluded that North Star Cement has the capability, in terms of capacity and quality,to supply the needs of the Hibernia development:' It just remains to be seen whether the new found friends of the h.on. member will see that concrete platforms are used in the construction or wheth.er we will see the development of the Hibernia occur through floating platforms,with the oil being siphoned off - guess where? - into the Province df Nova Scotia and the Province of Quebec.

SOME HON, MEMBERS: MR. NEARY; MR. SPEAKER CRus -sell) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Rear, hear. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, the day before yesterday, I think it was, Monday, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenh.eimer) _ undertook to provide my colleague, th.e member for Torngat Mountains CMr. Warren) .. , with information concerning an ultimatum that was issued by Atlantic Loto to 354

M.arch 15, 1984 Tape No. 134 so -3 MR. NEARY: people who sell the Atlantic Loto here in Newfoundland. The minister undertook to get the information as soon as possible, it is now Thursday, the. House does not have the information, Mr. Speaker 1 and I believe it is incumbent upon th.e hon. gentleman-and 1 Hr. Speaker, the only way I can raise it is through a point of order -it is incumbent upon the hon. gentleman to provide that information as he undertook to do Monday past. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! 355

March 15, 1984 MR. OTTENHEIMER: to that point of order? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Tape No. 135 NM - 1 Mr. Speaker, may ~ speak The hon. the Minister of Justice to that point of order. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously it is not a point of order. It was forty-eight hours ago the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) asked me that and I said I would get him the information, the full information as soon as possible. And the han. gentleman for Torngat Mountains knows that I will do that,because on many occasions he has asked me questions and I have always gotten back to him.

And I like to give him the full information. I do not have the full information now, if he wants part of the information I will give it. But in respect to the hon. gentleman who wants the full information I will wait until I have the full information, because I have respect for the hon. gentleman. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognized the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) on a point of order which I must rule was not a valid point of order because the question could have been asked of the Minister of Justice during the Question Period. 356

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 135 NM - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The Address-in-Reply was adjourned last day by the hon. Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I guess we can call it the second phase of the ongoing saga of some questions that need some answering and unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, I only have,on my time limit,about twent y-three minutes to do so. I am sure the Opposition will give me leave beyond twenty-three minutes. I am sure of that. Mr.

Speaker, first of all may I say that I have to deal with and I am responding to the first speech by the Opposition in this debate, in this new session, by the new non-elected member,as a Liberal,in the Mount Scio district ~ And I have to deal with a personal attack. He chose to take

part in debate in a personal attack manner. I was surprised at that, Mr. Speaker. I thought more of the hon. gentleman when he was with us. I expected him, when he crossed the floor,to tell us why he · crossed the floor, on what issue, on ''1hat policy, and what motivated him to cross the floor, thereby leaving our caucus. Now, Mr. Speaker, in making a personal attack on me, as he did, and it was a very personal attack, one that has been very adequately dealt with by someone on my side of the House? No, Mr. Speaker, someone who is a Liberal in the Federal Liberal Government.

But that man who did deal with the accusations upon my character is a man of principle, although he is a Liberal. There are many people in the Liberal Party who are men and women of principle. But in this case I have to go further and question 357

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 135 NM - 3 M...~. MORGAN: any bo dy who would stand in this House and question one of his own peers of the House of Assembly. And the hon. gentleman quoted in all the media said about this hon. gentleman, "The hon. gentleman would not be able to look after himself outside of the House." Well, Mr. Speaker, I would say that I am not here, as man y of colleagues and friends know, not here because I need a job, Mr. Speaker, I am here because I believe in a man who is leading our party and leading this Province in the right direction today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will make one comment further. I listened a few days ago to a national news media comment, not about me but about someone in this Province who is presently being investigated by his own peers . MR. DE\fN: Who is that now? MR. MORGAN: I am not making the accusation. I heard the national media, the same han. gentleman who chose to personally attack me as an individual is presently under investigation by his own peers, the Law Society of Newfoundland. I am not making the accusation, it is national news. It was carried. I heard it in Toronto, Mr. Speaker. I do not know 358

Harch 15, 1984 Tape 136 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: why they are investigating the hon. gentleman and personally I do not care. :M..R. HODDER: HR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! On point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious that the Premier sent his hatchet man -we have always wondered why that minister was in Cabinet, now we know. He is the darker side of the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is this: About a year and a half ago, that minister got up and made veiled accusations about the then Leader of the Opposition which proved unfounded. MF .• NEARY: That is right. MR. HODDER: He made veiled accusations. Now, he is making veiled assassinations and accusations again without naming what he is saying. He is a master at it, Mr. Speaker. I \vould like to say that I feel that this type of debate in the House is not vmrthy or becoming of the House and that particular minister should have been flung out of here a long time ago. HR. MORGAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. MORGAN: Any member of this House, Mr. Speaker, can stand and quote what has been said in the media of the Province and nationally. All I am doing is quoting what I heard in the national media. That is what I am doing. I heard it in the media. And, I~. Speaker, I would like to have a fast ruling, because 359

March 15, 1984 Ta9e 136 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: the game thi s a ft ernoon is to cut my time as much as possible by these stupid and silly points of order. .MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : It is going to be, too . Order, please! To that point 0f order, I rule there is no point of order. Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us not get down to that level of debate. S011E RON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Oh, oh! Because, Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, I want to know what is the issue, what is the policy issue that has caused the hon. gentleman to stand now and condemn this go vernment on economic issues,on the offshore issues, on the fisheries issues, when 1while he was here in this caucus,as a member of this government, he fully supported these policies and programmes? Now, a few days ago I did say that we have not changed our policies. Our policies are they same now as they were on Februar y 6th. And what was going on on February 6th? There was a meeting in St.

John's on February 6th, and that February 6th meeting was dealing with our policies on the offshore, in particular, our stand on the offshore, our stand on the fisheries, our stand on the Northern cod issue, our stand on having a say in the management of our resources in this Province and how we were going to get a better deal with the national level of government. 360

March 15, 1984 Tape 136 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: We were all, on this side of the House, planning at that meeting to get rid of the present government in Ottawa. And at that same meeting was the hon. gentleman who now stands in the House and condemns these same policies and programmes that he supported on February 6th.

Now, the key question is going to be asked and ?OSed, not only in this House, but out in the Mount Scio district and throughout the Province: Why would someone on February 6th stand firmly behind our policies and programmes and condemn outright the present policies and programmes of the national level of govern­ ment, presently a Liberal Government, and then, a few days after, on February 21st, the same month, the same year, a few days after, cross the floor and condemn the policies of this government? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: The question is why. Novl, Mr.

Speaker, it is very worthwhile to listen to some of the things that have been going on in the last fe~v days: 'The ~inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is incompetent, the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins) is incompetent, the Premier is incompetent.' Last night on C.B.C. television, 'Oh, there are a number of incompetent ministers in the Government of Newfoundland.' Well, on February 6th, Mr. Speaker, who was the most incompetent minister at that time? -by the same bon. gentleman. Who was it? It was the present federal minister from Newfoundland in the Liberal Government in Ottawa.

That was a quote from him, 'The most incompetent, bungling minister they have in Ottawa is Mr. Rompkey,' was the quote at that time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 361

t-!arch 15, 1984 Tape 136 EC - 4 MR . MORGAN : Oh , t~e irony of it all ! This weekend the same hon . gentleman is travelling down to Labrador West with that same, in his view , bungling , incompetent gentl eman from Ottawa . SOME HON . MD1BERS : Hear, hear ! MR . ~10RGAl'~: Nhy is he going to Labrador Nest? I can tell you, !"a- . Speaker . My political intuition 362

March 15,1984 Tape No. 137 ah-1 MR.MORGAN: tells me he is looking for a provincial seat. He is looking for a provincial seat. He has to leave Mount Scio. Or, one second, Mr. Speaker. In posing the question why he crossed the floor, maybe it was because the constituents of his riding, Mount Scio, asked him to cross the floor. Maybe that is the reason why. But I have a pretty firm indication that the answer to that question is, no, they did not ask him to leave. Did any of us on this side ask him to leave our caucus? Mr. Speaker, no, we did not. Do you know the reason why?

We did not see enough of him in our caucus to ask him that question. That is why. He very seldom came to our caucus meetings. As I pointed out earlier this week, he did not even know who to send his letter of resignation to as our caucus chairman. He sent it to the wrong man, who was not even the chairman of our caucus. Now, Mr. Speaker,so far the hon. gentleman has chosen to come on the personal attack bit. I mentioned earlier this week he was involved in conversation with a man who made a very vicious personal attack on the Premier, and a few days ·ago he got involved in a vicious personal attack on me.

And that is unfortunate,because all I am doing as a member of the House is questioning why he made his move across the floor, for him to explain it to the House and explain it to us. Now, is it because of a matter of principle? When my colleague and friend from Baie Verte-White Bay district (Mr. Rideout) crossed the floor, did he cross the floor in a temperamental mood and move at the time, a rash decision? 363

March 15,1984 Tape No. 137 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, he stood and crossed on principle~ He crossed on the principle that he could not agree with their policies and he said/'I am going to stand for Newfoundland and the Premier's stand on behalf of our resources.' He came on principle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: district and got Hear, hear! And he went back to his solid support for the Premier and his policies and came back to the House. Now, ltr. Speaker, I recall just before I came to the House of Assembly , the day when a good friend of all of us here,now the Member of Parliament 1Mr.

Crosbie, and at the time Mr. Wells and Mr. Hickman crossed the floor. Did they leave a party and cross the floor just because of some individual 1 selfish motive? Did they cross on principle? Did they cross because of a policy difference? Mr. Speaker, they crossed the floor on a matter of principle and policy. At the time it was the Come By Chance issue. We all recall that, why they crossed the floor. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman i~ going to have to, in debate more so than in personal attacks against the ministers on this side of the House 1explain to his constituents, explain to the general public and explain more importantly to this House of Assembly why he made the move he did. And surely, surely it is not connected with that rumour that was circulating, and I checked it out, that there was going to be a vacancy in the leadership of the Liberal party. Now that rumour was very strong. The present leader is a fine,honourable gentleman and he takes

part in 364

March 15,1984 Tape No . 137 ah -3 M.R.MORGAN: debates in the House and does a good job in debates. SOME RON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! )'!:R.MORGAN : And if ever there is any kind of a\o~ard for the work he has done for the Liberal party, that man deserves it. And lvhat I have heard from Ottawa sources, and good sources in Ottawa, is that there could be, there just could be an early retirement from the Senate - repeat, early retirement - by a Newfoundland senator, a fine honourable Newfoundlander .

His retirement is coming up , but they were going to arrange, or make plans to arrange for maybe this gentleman to take an early retirement and that would leave a vacancy in the senate . And I have said, Mr . Speaker, and I say it again now, that nobody is more entitled than the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr .Neary) to the Liberal appointment if it comes up , than the hon . Leader of the Opposition . SOME HON .MENBERS : Hear , hear ! MR .MORGAN: So the hon . member crossed the floor in anti=ipation . Oh, he was so anxious for that job, that seat! So anxious for it .

And then suddenly, a few days after when Mr . Cashin finds out as well , oh, no! There 365

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 138 MJ - 1 MR. MORGAN : is not going to be an early retirement 1and there is not going to be any appointment to the Senate bv the ~resent Liberal Government in Ottawa, because the Senator's retirement will be too late to get an appointment by this present governrnentr so it would have to be from the new government, P.nd in this case there is no question, it is going to be a new Progressive Conservative Government in Ottawa, no question about that. Now, surely it would not be that, Mr. Speaker. Surely it would not be selfish motives.

Now,what really puzzled me was yesterday when the han. gentleman was saying 1 when he heard Hr. De Bane in Ottawa had come out to my defence, a good Liberal in Ottawa out in defence of a good Conservative here, he stands in his place and he tries to leave the impression, 'Oh,now,look, the reason why Mr. De Bane would do that to Mr. Morgan is because he is so easy to get along with and he is giving everything away from Newfoundland and that is the reason why,he is just a soft minister.' And on the other side of the coin, Hr. Speaker, he is condemning others because they cannot get along with federal ministers.

Now I am going to say to the same han. gentleman, if getting an ice-making programme costing $6.5 million for the fishermen around the Province, if getting a major improvement to the marine service centers and a major new programme for new service centers for our fishermen around the Province, if a 25 per cent subsidy just recently put in place for the fishermen on the cost of their boats, if the resource-short plant programme put in place for the first time this Winter employing 1,000 Newfoundlanders, if the subsidy for the sealers in the sealina industry, if the restructuring agreement now employing 5,000 Newfoundlanders, if a joint marketing mission getting more markets for our caplin and other species of fish in our Province 1and if other measures that we are getting done for our 366

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 138 MJ - 2 MR. MORGAN : fishing industry is as a result of co-operation and working with Mr. De Bane 1 I say 'rhy not! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Let him openly condemn these kinds of things which are good for our Province and its most important industry. Now, Mr. Speaker, the other ironic part was this: He crosses the floor and one of the first questions he asked to the Premier of our Province, 'Will you make every effort and make snre you get a ~-Tri tten commitment from Mr. Mulroney on the position of the present PC Party in Ottawa, in the Opposition, on the offshore?

Will you do that, Mr. Premier?' he was demanding. Oh, Mr. Speaker ! And I happened to hear today that coming to the Province this weekend for a Liberal meeting, ~r. Speaker, we are going to have a leadership candidate, han. John Roberts, we are going to have Mr. Mark MacGuigan, a minister in the federal Cabinet running for leaoe~s~t~, we are going to have rA.r. Don Johnston who is running for the Iiberal leadership and mavbe- question mark_- maybe the han. Jean Chretien, all coming to Hewfoundland to take

part in a Liberal meeting. N8w I find it rather strange and ironic that now that he is ewer on the other side as a Liberal 1 he wants to demand that Mr. Mulroney put in writing to Newfoundland, like Mr. Clark did, what his position is on the offshore. The big difference ~eing Mr. Mulroney is still in Opposition in Ottawa and the government is in power in Ottawa. 367

March 15, 1984 Tape 139 PK - l MR. MORGAN: Now why is it that the question would not be more adequately posed 1 if he is going to be an influential Liberal and if he is sincere in his endeavours as a Newfoundlander- he is a fine intelligent gentleman, I respect him- but if he is sincere in his endeavours as a politician, why not this weekend,. I say to the hon. gentleman in all sincerity,put it to Mr. Johnston and Mr. MacGuigan and Mr. Roberts,and Mr. Chretien if he comes down her~ and say, Why do you not respond in writing to our proposal put forward,which is reasonable and fair for our Province? SOME HON .

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, he stood and condemned our policy on the fisheries, not knowing that he was a member of the caucus when we developed the fisheries policy documents which , as I emphasized yesterday, were developed by the caucus members and ~ut forward as an official document on fisheries,and he then supported it. Now I find it further ironic that this weekend in St. John's at that Liberal meeting there are going to be some guest speakers on the issues.

Now this han. gentleman,according to his debate he is an expert on economic affairs, he is an expert on budgetary matters and finance, he is an expert on fisheries, he is an expert on law and offshore resources, now surely with such a newly found expert in the - Liberal Party, ·they will invite him along to the big meeting they are having this weekend to try to get the youth motivated in the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, suddenly there is a new shining star! He was their shining star last week or ten days ago,but now he is no longer, because he made a real bungle 368

March 15, 1984 Tape 139 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: of his first speech in the House getting on with personal attacks, attacking ministers personally and their characters. He bungled badly. His name is not even mentioned in the advertisments at this weekend's meeting of the Liberals. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: What! Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: But there is a new shining star on the horizon that the Liberals are looking at and bringing in~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: respect for, a man I work SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Garfield? No, no, no, no, no, A man I have with and deal with. Oh, oh! No, no.

It is Mr. Richard Cashin. Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Yes, yes. There is a new star on the horizon. So the han. gentleman is going to realize in a few weeks time the mad rush he made in the direction of the Leader of the Opposition's seat is sudde~ly blocked, there are going to be a few obstacles in his path. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me close by saying , since my time is almost up - SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leavel By leave! MR. MORGAN: I will not get leave, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: By leave! By leave! Ey leave? No leave. Okay, no leave. Mr.

Speaker, let me say this government today,led by the Premier·of our Province,is dealing with the economy and the problems we have in the economy in a manner which we can be all proud because today , for example, 369

March 15, 1984 Tape 139 PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: we have 1,400,000 Canadians unemployed across the country, a 12 per cent unemployment rate, it is 18 per cent here. We had bankruptcies across the country in the last year, in the last twelve months, 9,500 bankrupt companies across Canada; 206 in Nova Scotia 1 where all of the activity is taking place, 206 companies go bankrupt in Nova Scotia. Fortunately only 80 .- 80 too many here - but 80 too many companies went into receivership.

Let me go on to say that while we have all this controversy about nothing happening in the offshore and everything is dead here on the offshore 1 we have todayi presently, 2,538 workers in the offshore, 2,538 Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: $450 million was spent this past year in the offshore. Coming up this financial year, there will be $600 million spent in the offshore by the companies in exploratory work. The local preference policy is working so well despite the federal court's ruling, I have been told by my colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn), despite the federal court ruling in recent days, the local preference policy is working so well in Newfoundland in the offshore that companies are going to volunteer to carry on using it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: We have had problems in our budgetary matters, sure we have. We have problems raising revenues, but - - --- · - - · . . -- ·- not with our expenditures. we controlled that, but despite controllec expenditures we this present year did what? We spent $55 million on water and sewer projects in my colleague's department .. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: $89 million in roads and bridges around the Province; $1.5 million in recreation projects; $2.5 million in fisheries projects; $1 million in: .rural development; and on we go , Mr. Speaker. The fact is that this Premier 370

March 15, 1984 Tape 139 PK - 4 MR . MORGAN : and this government , although we are going through a recession across the country, despite the fac~ chat ue unemployment rate is so high throughout all of Canada, desp~te the fact that it is difficult getting revenues from the economy-we do not have the industrialized base to give us the revenues, it is just not there to get i."'' our province - but this Premier and this Province, a.l'\d I am sure I am speaking for all of my colleagues here, this Premier with his 371

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 140 SD - l MR. MORGAN : policies and his programme to make sure that we get control to manage and develop our natural resources, through that policy and programme, as he has often said, 'The sun will shine one day and have-not will be no more.' And let there be no more impugning of any of my colleagues and no more question marks raised. Every man and woman on this side of the House is standing firmly behind this Premier to make sure this Province proceeds in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, to that I say amen, Mr. Speaker. Is it any wonder that the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) a few years ago brought a private member's resolution into this House to make it mandatory to have the Lord's Prayer before we commence our session? With that kind of attitude, with that kind of muckraking, with that kind of lowering of the decorum of this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, with that kind of dark humour, I am sure that we need the guidance that the hon. gentleman recommended at that time. Now·, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to deal with anything that the hon. gentleman said except to point out to members of the House that here you have a minister of the Crown, a minister - well, I do not know if you would call him a minister of the Crown or minister of the clown - you have a minister who is supposed to be articulating government policy, a minister who was supposed to be telling the people of this Province what plans and policies and programmes the administration there opposite have to deal with the incredible mess that they have made of managing 372

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 140 so - 2 MR. NEARY: the affairs of this Province, A minister, Mr. Speaker, is supposed to be a highly respected individual, a gentleman who has stature, an han. gentleman who can enunciate government policy, who can defend the administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, for the past hour we heard the han. gentleman - half an hour on Tuesday and a half an hour today - and I ask han. members can they name me one policy, one progra~~e, one plan, that the han. gentleman dealt with on behalf of the administration? Because remember, Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman is speaking for the administration there opposite. Did he name one plan or programme or policy to help the people of this Province? Was there any comfort in what the han. gentleman said? Will there be any comfort to the inshore fishermen who are bankrupt? Was there any message there for people who are unemployed, especially young people throughout this Province between the ages of sixteen and twenty-five, for 43 per cent of the unemployed in Newfoundland are between the ages of sixteen and twenty-five?

Will they be able to take any comfort in what the han. gentleman said this afternoon when he was speaking on behalf of the administration? Me thinketh, Mr. Speaker, that the hen. gentleman protested too much. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, they are hurting badly, they are smarting because the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barryl, in the best interest of the people of this · Province, decided to move his seat. They are hurting and they have sent their hatchetmen and muckrakers after the hon. gentleman. The Premier does not have the courage to get up himself. MR.

SIMMS: I th.ought y.ou said y.ou were n.ot going to get down in this stuff? MR. NEARY: No 1 I am n.ot going to. I would suggest the next in line of the muckrakers will be the member for 373

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 141 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), he will be sicked on to the hon. gentleman. And then the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) , who was ruled out of order thirty-two times in one day in this House, he will be sent after the hon. gentleman. The hatchet men over there will be yapping at the hon. gentleman's heels like a bunch of crackies, 1·1r.

Speaker, and it would all do no good,because I have to remind hon. members of this House that the voters are sick and tired of the squabbling and the fighting and the arguing and the battling and the childishness that goes on in this House and outside of this House. They are tired of it. They are fed up with it. And they are angry, Mr. Speaker. They are angry. They are angry because this administration that was given an overwhelming mandate on April 6, 1982 have failed to deliver on that mandate.

And yesterday they took great comfort in one-upmanship, the kind of a game that the Premier plays all the time, when he carne into the House with a Telex from the Federal Minister of Fisheries, Mr.· De Bane. Now, Mr. Speaker, we know 1 because the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has admitted it, that he telephoned Mr. De Bane before that Telex carne to the Premier. By his own admission we know that. Mr. Speaker, the question is what did the Provincial Minister of Fisheries give to Mr. De Bane to get him to send th.at telegram? What did he give him? Will Mr.

De Bane now be able to appoint his own Chj_ef Executive Officer? Mr. Speaker, that is an interestinq question. MR. BARRY: Is that why he is not going to be a Newfoundlander, I wonder? 374

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 141 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPE~~ER (McNicholas): On a point of order, the hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is implying that there was somet~inq mysteriously wrong or was done in order for a man of principle,and all I mentioned earlier in my debate, to send a telegram to the Premier of our Province to clear the name of, in this case a colleague of his, in one of the provinces, whose name was smeared by a member of the Opposition. And I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order that is totally wrong on the part of the member now speaking. There was nothing mysterious about it. The minister chose on a matter of principle, because he knew that the charge was totally unfounded, there was no truth whatsoever to it, it was silly and ridiculous as he said in his telegram, and he chose to clear my name on the issue by telexing the Premier of our Province. And, Mr.

Speaker, then to further imply that the policies of government would suddenly change because a minister in Ottawa chose to clear a name of a friend and a colleague involved in fisheries matters, that again, Mr. Speaker, is totally wrong and the han. gentleman is out of order and he should be asked to retract these kinds of statements. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, The hon. member for The question has to be raised, what did Mr. De Bane have in the way of information?

I do not believe Hansard is being piped into the House of Cornrnons1so one has to wonder where Mr. De Bane got his information. Obviously it was from the last speaker, 375

.t>!arch 15, 1984 MR . BARRY: (:Olr . Morgan) . Tape No . 141 :-JM - 3 The Minister of Fisheries The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary ) has asked to pu~ a question before ~~is House, which the t-1inister of Fisheries and the Premier has to answer, and it is a fair question, and that is what has the Hinister of Fisheries given away in order to protect and preserve his own inflated ego? w~at did he give away against the public interest 376

March 15, 1984 ':'ape 142 EC - l MR. BARRY: of this Province? Was it the choice of the Chief Executive Officer? Was it the choice of directors? What was given? Is that why we are not going to have a Newfoundlander as the head of the new fish company? MR. OTTENHEIMER: ~)that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to that point of order, as well.

As hon. members are aware, it is improper ~o allege or to impute that a minister has acted imprope~ly, dishonestly, unethically, traitorously with respect ~o performance of his duties and I would suggest that when it is submitted, when it is stated, 'What did the hon. minister give away? In return for a telegram, what did he give away?' then certainly, there is an impu~ation there that the minister has been bribed or is bribing or is in some way involved in unlawful or unethical conduct.

And I did not get up at the time, there was one point of order on the floor, the only way it could have come up \•Tas as a point of privilege, and when the House gets into these interminable wrangles it does not benefit anybody, actually. I will not say who it was, but one hon. gentleman was saying when the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) was speaking, he was directing it towards the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), you know, 'blackmail' and I also heard the word 'liar'. And I am not bring those up because you only bring them up inside a point of order by getting to a point of privilege.

I think there a.re valid points of privilege, but I am not sure that anyone gets anywhere by long and 377

March 15, 1984 Tape 142 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: complicated procedural differ- ences of opinion by getting points of privilege inside points of order. So I am sticking to the point of order but I think it is important and I would hope that the Chair would consider the fact that any statement or allegation or imputation that a minister or any hon. member on any side, a private member of government or Opposition, has been involved in bribery, either offering bribery or being a recipient of bribery, any imputation of that character is out of order.

And when you ask the question: What did he give away in return for something? - to my mind there is an imputation that the person has acted illegally, dishonestly, and that is not an imputation which hon. members can make to>vards one another. That is what it comes to. MR. NEARY: order. Mr. Speaker, to that point of MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas) : To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the only time that we hear from the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) - he does not participate in debate at all - the only time we hear from him is when he wants to show us what an expert he is on parliamentary procedure and law. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle­ man should go and look at the rules of the House. The hon. gentleman just stated that there were statements made of allegations and imputations. There were no such things, Mr. Speaker. (Mr. Morgan) . I put a question to the Minister of Fisheries I asked him if he indeed did call Mr. De Bane before the Telex came to the Premier and he admitted that yesterday. ME , v"V.AEREN; That is right. 378

March 15, 1984 Tape 142 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: I then said to him, 'What did you offer or give Mr. De Ba ne in return for sending this Telex which was a lie?' When you get an honourable man like the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) lying, Mr. Speaker, there must be more to it than meets the eye and therefore; Mr. Speaker, 379

March ·15, 1984 Tape No. 143 r.1J - 1 MR. NEARY: the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) lied. And when you have a federal minister of the Crown lying to the Premier of this Province, r1r. Speaker, that is a pretty serious matter and so it is our duty and our responsibility, Itr. Speaker, to question the minister and the administration as to what they gave in return for getting a federal minister to lie. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are the nuts and bolts of the situation. MR. MORGAN: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) MR. MORGAN: To that point of order, Mr. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I mean, we have gone to the utter ridiculous now. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is now trying to bail out his colleague who really got himself in deep water by standing up and making a statement to the effect that the minister in Ottawa, who is a fine, honourable man of principle - MR. WARREN: He is a liar. HR. MORGAN: The hon. gentlemen can call him a liar if they want to, that is up to them. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Let me finish.

Then to go further and clearly leave the impression that the present minister in Ottawa, an hon. gentleman, is subject to being bribed by someone from Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, he is. He is. MR. MORGAN: Listen to the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, listen to the members over there. They are saying, 'Yes, he is' -that the minister in Ottawa, that fine, hon. man of distinction who has been in the federal Cabinet 380

March 15, 1984 Tape NO. 143 MJ - 2 MR. MORGAN: for the last ten years or so, a man of principle in Ottawa, a man of dignity, that he is subject to be bribed by someone from Newfoundland - MR. HODDER: Yes. MR. MORGAN: - whether it be a minister here or somebody else. Mr. Speaker the accusation now is not against me it is against the man in Ottawa, 'who is up there and subject t:::J taking bribes from !'Tewfoundland' - 'You do this for me and I will do this for you.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, two days a·:~o there was a personal attack on me, and now this vicious type of personal attack on the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane). How low will they stoop, Mr. Speaker? How low will the Opposition stoop? - saying a man who cannot defend himself here is a man who can accept bribes and be bribed, and number two, the man is a liar. Mr. Speaker, I will say categorically that the conversation I had yesterday with Mr. De Bane was very short and brief. He was aware of what the stories were. Ever y day Mr.

De Bane gets copies of all the press clippings from Newfoundland telling him what is taking place. The issue was in the media. I called him and spoke to him about the issue and he said, and I quote, 'Jim, you know and I know and 11r. Kirby and all the others know, Dr. Art May and everybody concerned, that what is being said is absolutely stupid and ridiculous and I will make sure it is clarified.' How did he clarify it? In his mm way. He could have made a press release. MR. BARRY: there? Who else was there? Who else was MR. MORGAN: Listen to the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). ~tr.

Speaker, if they want to call Mr. De Bane a liar, which they have already done, well let us look at who else hac been there throughout negotiations. 381

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 143 MJ - 3 MR. MORGAN: Every day Dr. Art May, the deputy minister, is he also a liar? Dr. Michael Kirby, is he a liar? Peter John Nickleson, a lawyer, is he a liar? Mr. John Fitzgerald, the head of the Petroleum Directorate from Newfoundland, head today of the Newfoundland Petroleum Directorate, he was appointed after, is he a liar? They all know, they were all there. It is a silly, stupid statement made by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) He got himself in hot water by his personal attack on me. I have been vindicated and he has been made a fool of by making his personal attack.

Now, Mr. Speaker he is going to have to account for his actions as a new Liberal member, just joined the Liberal ranks in Newfoundland, for the personal attack on the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane), calling him a man to be bribed and calling him a liar. Terrible! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) Order, please! Order,please! To that point of order I must rule there is no point of order. There may have been some allegations made against people who are not in thiJs.-o hon. House, but there is no pc!lint of order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, if I may be allowed to continue uninterrupted with my few remarks about the terrible, the horrendous state of the Newfoundland and Labrador economy. MR. SPEAXER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is the important thing, Mr. Speaker. The important thing is not whether Mr. De Bane is a liar or not, although we happen to think that he is. Because, Mr. Speaker, in conversations that we had with the gentleman, my colleague, our spokesman on· fisheries, and ~yself, it would be interesting if we only had a tape 382

March 15 , 1984 Tape No . 143 t-!J - 4 ~1R . NEJ.I.RY : of the remarks that were made about the Premier o£ this Province and about the Minister of Fisheries (~~ . ~organ) by that hon . gentleman . Mr . Speaker, it ~;ould be a be st-s eller if we had it . But I am not going to con~inue on that trend, I ·~ant to get around to something =a= more important , because the people of Newfoundland 383

March 15,1984 Tape No. 144 ah-1 MR. NEARY : are tired and angry about the squabbling and the fighting that is going on. They have had enough of confrontation politics in the last four years from the Premier of this Pro vince and the y want action. There is a quiet revolution going on out there, Mr. Speaker. li1T. TULK: MR. NEARY: heard in silence,please? MR.SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas) MR.NEARY: He go t it in the main tod ay, 'Jim'. Mr. Speaker, could I be Order, please! There is a quiet revolution going 9~ out there, Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: I will see he gets today' s Hansard. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is shouting from the doorway • MR. MORGAN: Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: hon.Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. On a point of order. The Mr. Speaker, I was only responding across the House to the conversations and shouting of his colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr.Tulk). l said I,·was going to make sure that today's Hansard,containing the attack on the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

De Bane),would get mailed to the federal Minister of Fisheries today;after the House ·closes copies of their attack on his integrity and his character would get mailed to him today. So, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) wants someone to listen to him in the 384

March 15,1984 Tape No. 144 ah-2 MR . MORGAN : House, he should control th e member for Fogo (Hr. Tulk). MR. WARRE N : Oh, qo down to vo ur tavern. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, I would ask each honourable member to address the House from his seat. MR.NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, in dealing with the real issues, the real problems in this Pro vince, I would like for hon. gentlemen there opposite to restrain themselves.

They are beside themselves today , they are smarting because we have a new colleague over here who is only interested in the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and not partisan politics. He has put his Province before politics , Mr . Speaker , and he is to be commended for that. And we intend to deal with the issues in this session. They can try to distract us all they want,and they can bring in all the red herring they want,but the fact of the matter is that the Newfoundland economy is in an incredible mess as a result of the mismanagement and the incompetence of the present administration.

We have record unemployment, we have the highest taxes in the nation, we · have high electricity rates and we have young people who are being driven out, forced out of the Province to look for employment elsewhere, driven from their homes. We have families who are heartbroken because their sons and daughters have gone to university ,and to the College of Trades,and the College of Fisheries,and the Vocational Sc~ls and they have thei r certificates,and the y have their skills andtheir training, Mr. Speaker, and they cannot find jobs. And why can they not find jobs? Because this administration, Mr.

Speaker, has created 385

March 15,1984 Tape No. 144 ah-3 MR. NEARY: such a hostile,political climate in this Province that business and industry will not locate in Newfoundland. The five year programme that they told us about four years ago,where they were going to create 40,000, Mr. Speaker, the 40,000 jobs they talked about creating are over in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Now, Mr.

Speaker, ask the people of Gander about the performance of this administration, ask the people in Labrador City and in Corner Brook and in all the other communities in Newfoundland, in Marystown, in Burin, Mr.Speaker, where they are undergoing suffering and pain and misery as a result of the mismanagement of this administration. MR. WARREN: And Davis Inlet. MR.NEARY: And Davis Inlet,my hon. colleague reminds me. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the Throne Speech is supposed to be a blueprint, it is supposed to be a plan of action. Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing in the Throne Speech to indicate that anything is going to be done to stimulate the Newfoundland and Labrador economy, nothing in the Throne Speech to help our people. There, Mr. Speaker, therein lies the problem. MR.CARTER: time is up. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the member's The administration there opposite cannot point their finger to one success in four years. And not only in four years, but since the Tories took over,in 1982. 386

March 15, 1984 Tape No . 145 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Not one success, just one failure after aT-other. Mr. Speaker their policies have been wrong. They refuse to change their direction . The Premier is stubborn and digging in his heels and as a result, Mr. Speaker, the whole Province is practically a welfare state. It is a terrible, terrible situation. Mr. Speaker, they talk about restraint. Next month the lease on a luxurious apartment in Tiffany Towers, rent free to the Premier, the lease will come up for renewal, Mr. Speaker, there is where we will find out how sincere they are about restraint.

No other Premier in Canada has a rent-free apartment or house except here in poor old Newfoundland. Will they renew that lease and continue to give the Premier of this Province a rent-free apartment and, in addition to that, several hundreds of dollars a month from the Tory Party, contributed by contractors and business people doing business with the government in this Province? And I regret to have to bring that up, Mr.

Speaker, but by the hon. gentleman's own admission he told us that the Tory Party paid off part of a $10,000 debt, when he backed a note for a business partner, and pays him several hundred dollars every month. Mr. Speaker, that is downright immoral, in my opinion. It should be discontinued. And I would like to hear the han. gentleman stand in his place in this House and say, I am no longer taking a cheque from a gentleman in the Tory Party who has space leased out for a museum in the Murray premises, unoccupied for four years. MR. CARTER: Name names . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, yes. I do not have to name names.

I do not have to write a book, Mr. Speaker. 387

March 15, 1984 Tape 145 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman knows who I am talking about. That the Premier will no longer take a cheque from an individual in the Tory Party, Mr. Speaker, who is being given benefits from this administration. Mr. Speaker, I think it is a very dangerous practice and it should be discontinued. And when they talk about restraint, Mr. Speaker, let the gentleman who leads the administration set the example. , What about the government aircraft? We were told a couple of years ago,no more use by ministers of government aircraft ,the King Air was grounded because it had high visibility.

But, Mr. Speaker, what they did then,they did the most sneaky thing I have ever heard of,they then started using the LFY aircraft, a twin engine aircraft used for aerial surveys in this Province, paid for,by the way,to a ~arge degree,by the Government of Canada. That aircraft is now being used to fly ministers horne on weekends and around the Province. And the Premier when he wants to go snaTing rabbits will charter a plane from an independent company. That is the way they have covered it up. They are still using the aircraft. That is practicing restraint.

They ask the public service and the paper workers and the fishermen to make sacrifices, practice restraint, while they themselves are living live shieks, like lords, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) should table the log of that LFY aircraft tnat the hon. gentleman flies horne in once in a while,,and t~e Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and a few others. The King Air had high visibility, everybody used to see it. at the airport, now they can sneak in in the LFY that is supposed 1to be used for aerial surveys in this Province. How often has it been used? For what purpose is it being used?

Who do they think they are, 388

March 15, 1984 Tape 145 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, squandering and wasting taxpayer money flying around in aircraft and helicopters and planes that are chartered from private companies? 389

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 146 SD - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of stuff that we have to get at 1"hen the people out there are starving, they cannot balance their household budget, they are unemployed and cannot find jobs, and the political appointments in the public service, and putting people on the payroll on a contractual basis. When it comes to political appointments, this crowd could probably show any other administration in the world how to make political appointments and then come in and portray the image of honesty and integrity in government, Mr. Speaker.

They have the face of a robber's horse over there. It is a sick joke, Mr. Speaker, it is a sick joke. The hon. gentleman should stop using that aircraft to get him horne and go down and use the commercial airlines the same as everybody else. Mr. Speaker, these are the things that we should be debating in this House - ways and means to stop the squandering, the political patronage, the political appointments, the mismanagement and the waste of taxpayer ~oney. That is what we should be concentrating on instead of listening to the tirade we heard from the Minister of Fisheries (~r. Morgant in the last day or so.

Not a word about policy or plans or programmes for the poor old people who are suffering out there. And they will get up one after the other and they will drape themselves in the .. flag and they say, 'Anybody who does not agree with us is wrong, the Tory way is the right way 1 , and they have not had one success in ten years, nothing but a string of failures, Mr. Speaker. One failure after the other and yet they will not change their direction, they will not change their policy. They are too stubborn. The Premier is leading them all around by the nose like little sheep over there.

It is shameful~ They do not have the courage of their convictions. The member for Mount Scio (.Mr. Barry)._, at least he had the courage of his convictions, Mr. Speaker. 390

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 146 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: They are over there, I know they are over there, I have spoken to them, who are disgruntled and disillusioned a~d downhearted and brokenhearted about the way things have gone in t~is Province. They will tell me in the elevators, they will tell me down at Government House,and they will tell me here and they will tell me there but they do not have the courage MR. STAGG: Name one? MR. NEARY: Yes, I could name a few. MR. WARREN: You. You are one. MR. NEARY: I could name a few, Mr. Speaker, but I will not do that, I will not embarrass hon. gentlemen.

But they do not have the courage to stand up for what they think is right. They do not have the courage of their convictions - MR. HODDER: H.ear, hear. MR. NEARY: -Mr. Speaker, or th.ey would not sit over there, lay back and watch the people of this Province suffer day in and day out - MR. CALLAN: That is their attitude. MR. NEARY: -as they feather their own political nests and play their own little political games, fighting the next federal election. Mr. Speaker, what a narrow-minded point of view. The people of Gander, as I said, will not forget. The teachers· will not forget.

The public service will not forget. The fishermen will not forget. The loggers· will no": forget. The miners, Mr. Speaker, will not forget. They have attacked just about every group, every government in Canada and it has· gotten us· nowh.ere, gotten us nowhere, Itr. Speaker. Th.e member for Grand Falls CMr. Simms) surely must reali.ze -he is a man who has a little common sense and is a decent gentleman, he mus.t know that the policies of the admini.stration h.e is supporting are getting us nowhere. we are accomplishing nothing. The art 391

:-larch 15, 1984 Tape ~o. 146 so - 3 MR . NEARY: of politics is com9romise, do hon . gentleman not realize that? Negotiations are a two -way street, Mr. Speaker . It take s two to tango, it takes two to make a deal . \~e cannot continue this way. Ne•..,foundland is just going to fall over the brink of oblivion if \o/e keep going the way we are going. Why do hon. gentlemen not smarten up? Listen to the people, never mind putting the open line brigade on, the Tory open line brigade they have nm., lined up . And then they come in and the Premier says, 'Did you hear the programme on CBC?

Cross Countrv Check-Op or whatever it is . After stacking it the night before , after calling the Tories around the Province to call in, block the lines, he comes i~ and says, 'Boys, was that not great? I am a hero. Look at what the people think of me' . And they all pound on their desks over th ere like trained sea ls, Mr . Speaker. 39 2

March 15, 1984 MR. NEARY: blamed. MR. HODDER: calls. Tape 147 EC - 1 They are more to be pitied than Some of them made seven phone MR. NEARY: Yes, I know somebody who made seven phone calls to that programmE to block the line and tell the Premier what a great fellow he was. Mr. Speaker, it is shameful! One thing the people of this Province were worried about on April 6th, 1982 was that with such a large majority, with such a large mandate, the administration might become dictatorial and arrogant. And I ask han. members if they can see any evidence of that in the House today?

All the people in the qallery who sat here tcday, all they had to do was to look do~m: Every time the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who is supposed to be a respected man and a man of stature, a man who leads the people, when he made a snarky remark cr did a little muck­ raking, Mr. Speaker, all hon. gentlemen and. ladies over there would pound their desks. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is not an indication of the arrogance! MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: member have left? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER: How much time does the han. Oh, oh! Order, please! I rule there is no point of order but I will indicate by message how much time the han. member has. There is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 393

March 15, 1984 Tape 147 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is another example of their arrogance, how they try to stifle debate in this House, how they try to muzzle the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that every major town and city, every community and village in Newfoundland except one is in serious economic trouble today. And I have been hearing rumours about that one, which we are told had substantial losses last year. MR. HODDER: The Premier said $14 million. MR. NEARY: The Premier stated $14 million.

I have been trying to check it out with the company and they tell us the Premier's figures were wrong. I hope they are wrong. Every town and every village and every settle­ ment, Mr. Speaker, is in trouble. And do we hear the problems of the people in these communities debated in this House, or do we see childish squabbling and arguing and fighting, Mr. Speaker? Is that what we see day in and day out? Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, I have to say that I have been absolutely disgusted by the performance of the administration there opposite since this session started. We intend to make it a hard-hitting session.

I like lively debate, I like hard debate, I like a little banter back and forth across the floor; I do not like rowdy sessions, but I like banter back and forth, I like good humour and wit and I like a good speech, one thing, Mr. Speaker, I have learned to appreciate in this House, and I am into my twenty-second year as a member. I like a good debate, I like a good argument but, Mr. Speaker, out of these discussions and these debates must come something constructive . And the constructive things that come out of debate and talk and discussion and recommendations and ideas and suggestions in this 394

March 15 , 1984 Ta?e 147 EC - 3 MR . NEARY : House , what comes out of debate is something thet is good for the people . But, Mr . Speaker, we on this side of the House can only argue and put for ­ ward recommencations and suggestions and ideas. '1-le are not in a decisicn -making role. It is th~ administration there opposite ;-;h o make the decisions, wb.o :"'a!:e the policies, \<~ho irr.plement the plan s . 395

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 148 NM - 1 MR. CARTER: Do not shout now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot help shouting. As far as I am concerned,this is a very, very emotional matter. I see too many people, I talk to too many people day in and day out, I get too many letters and phone calls from people, Mr. Speaker, who have problems that would make the hair stand straight on your head. It is frustrating. I am sure anybody who serves the public today, any member of this House, any clergyman, any member of a council, any member of a union can tell you the same thing. It is so frustrating, Mr.

Speaker, that we do not know which way to turn. You can sympathize with these people, how long? How long will they accept sympathy? How long will they just stay there and you say, "I am sorry boy, I am sorry for you but there are 90,000 other unemployed Newfoundlanders like you." These people want answers. These people want to know what their leaders, what their administration, what their government, is doing for them. Where are the plans? I am going to ask hon. gentlemen when they rise in their places from now on, do not make fools of themselves like the Minister of Fisheries, especially ministers.

If the. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is asked to get up and do a hatchet job on the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), the hon. member should resist the temptation and get up and tell us what plans the administration that he is supporting have to deal with the problems of the people of this Province. What plans does the administration have to deal with the problems of the inshore fishermen who we are told are almost bankrupt because they have lost real income in recent years. No more income from squid, no more income from 396

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 148 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: herring, very little income from caplin, no increase in the price of fish, while the cost of operating their vessels, the cost of gear, the cost of insurance, everything gone sky high,through thP. roof. MR. Bli_RRY : salmon prices. MR. NEARY: A drop in lobster and A drop in lobster and salmon prices, and we are talking about - how many thousand Newfoundlanders are we talking about?-40, .000 Newfoundlanders. My han. colleague rightly pointed out yesterday there is not a home in Newfoundland that is not affected by the fishery. We are all experts on the fishery.

You will not find a Newfoundlander who is not an expert on the fishery, Mr. Speaker. And why should we not be? We survived on the fishery for 500 years. It is the primary producers in this Province who pay for education and pay for health and pay for our salaries here. It is the little, +owly fisherman who does that 1 because he generates the new dollars. He is the primary producer. The primary producers are the loggers, the paper makers, the fisher~en, the miners, Mr. Speaker. They are the ones who generate the new dollars, and they have been completely ignored. Mr.

Speaker, this government has been so preoccupied with oil and gas - they have had oil on their brain. Oil for their breakfast, oil for dinner and oil for supper, they have been so preoccupied with oil that they have ignored our other natural resources. 397

March 15,1984 Tape No. 149 ah-1 MR.NEARY: They have neglected the fishery, our most basic industry, a renewable industry I might add,that employs so many thousand Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker. They have ignored it. And we have been telling them for three or four years , by the way, in this House, do not ignore the fishery; we have said do not put all your eggs in the offshore oil basket. How often did I say that in this House, Mr. Speaker? ~ow the offshore ship is passing us by.

Two courts, the Newfoundland Appeals Court and the Supreme Court of Canada,said you do not own it, you never did own it, you did not bring it into Confederation and yet,despite that 1we hear tlie present Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) and the Premier day in and day out take to the airwaves trying to con the Newfoundland people further , trying ' to fool our voters again,saying the ~ig bad wolf in Canada, in Ottawa,is trying to take our resources. What resources?

The hon. gentleman says we brought it into Confederation and they are stealing it: Two courts, three Newfoundland judges of the Newfoundland Appeals Court says it is not so,and the Supreme Court of Canada, the highest court in the land said it is not so. But does the han. gentleman accept that and get back to the bargaining table and start negotiating? No, we are going to keep on fighting , he says, we are going to keep on fighting, shadow boxing as they have been doing for the last several years . We are going to keep on fighting and ignore the fact. And the han. gentlemanwill say it. I hear him. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot believe it,but I suppose he has to say it to prop up the morale of the Tories out there who are too ashame4 to admit that the policies of this administration are wrong. They chose to ignore the two courts say you did not own it, 398

March 15,1984 Tape No. 149 ah-2 MR.NEARY: it is not your resource, you did not bring it into Confederation~ Despite that,the hon. gentleman still goes on the radio and television and says they are trying to take our resource that we brought into Confederation. MR. YOUNG: Is Joe y 's placque still out there? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, even if Mr. Devine and the Gcvernment House Leader (Mr. Marshall ) succeeded in separating from Canada , even if they succeeded in separating from Canada we still would not be able to claim the resource because we do not own it.

The courts told us that before Confederation we owned three miles outside of our coast - headland to headland, three miles. The Government of Canada gave us the 200 mile limit. It is sad, it is- pathetic, it is designed merely to fool the people and distract from the real issues and the real problems facing the people of this Province. And what are the problems? Let me repeat them again. Record unemployment - DR. COLLINS: You are looking for a headline 1 now. MR.NEARY: a headline, Mr. Speaker. do not need a headline.

No, I am not looking for When I stand in this House I Record unemployment, a high cost of living, a high cost of electricity, the highest taxes in Canada, the highest gasoline prices in the nation, and Mr. Speaker, I can go on and on. But what hon. gentlemen will say, but we need this restraint programme because we cannot balance our budget. I say to hon. gentlemen there opposite that that is negative. What we need is positive thinking. People out there need something upbeat. They need an upbeat speech, Mr. Speaker; : 399

March 15,1984 Tape No. 149 ah-J MR. NEARY: the kind of one I made on Province-wide television. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: They need an upbeat speech. They are tired of this doom and gloom and fighting and squabbling. I hope hon. gentlemen do not think the people out there are not fed up and angry and tired about all of this. MR. TOBIN: They are going to show how tired and angry they are in the next election. MR.NEARY: Well, unfortunately, they have to wait another two or three years,because the Premier has time on his side. He can call the election. But the people are pretty - Mr.

Speaker, they should have been over last night. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh,oh! MR.NEARY: No, I am not going to get into that. No I am not going to get into it. Mr. Speaker, the people need something upbeat, they need some positive thinking, some positive and constructive ideas for a change. AN HON . MEMBER: programme (inaudible). MR.NEARY: (inaudible) the open line Yesterday< Absolutely out of this world. Yes, excellent. Mr. Speaker, there they go again. Mr. Speaker, let me show the House again. Here they are down in a hole again, they are playing children's games , talking about Open Line programmes. 400

Harch 15, 1984 Tape 150 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: They are worried about their pictures and their images and their popularity polls. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . NEA .I<Y: Mr. Speaker, may we have silence? MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) Order, please· MR. NEARY: They are more concerDed about popularity polls, whether their hair is in place when they are h~ving their pictures taken than they are about the problems of the people of this Province. What the people need is positive thinking, not negative thinking. The Throne Speech was negative from cover to cover, Mr. Speaker.

It was negative and will do notting to help the people of this Province. We saw the admi~istration here give up a right to control Eastern Provincial Airways. Three years ago, this adminis­ tration had the right to decide the future of Eastern Provincial Airways and thre~ years ago they gave it up. Mr. Speaker, I was a member of a Liberal administration in this Province wto financed on more than one occasion Eastern Provincial Airways.

As a matter of fact, I was in the administration that gave Eastern Provincial Airways the money to buy Maritime Central Airways so they could merge and we could have a regional airline. We were as keen as mustard about that airline. But, Mr. Speaker, did we give these guarantees and loans and financial assistance withcut laying do>m some pretty stiff terms and conditions?

And the terms and conditions we laid down were these, that two re~resentatives of the Newfoundland Government would be on the board of directors, and that no decision would be made to change the shares or to move Eastern Provincial Airways without the approval of these two representatives of the 401

March 15, 1984 Tape 150 EC - 2 NR. NEARY: Newfoundland Govern ment who were the representatives of the people of this Province. Now, who gave that away, Mr. Speaker, when you talk about giveaways? Who gave away that right for the final say? Who gave away that right. to decide what would happen to Eastern Provincial Airways? And, Mr. Speaker, when the time carne, in the crunch, what did they do? In the crunch they started to blame Ottawa. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! M.~. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, I would like to have silence, if you do not mind. ~~. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! MR.

NEARY: In the crunch, what did they do? They started to blame Ottawa again, when in actual fact, Newfoundland Capital Corporation is a Newfoundland company registered under the laws of this Province. And if they wanted to find out about the finances of Eastern Provincial they could have set up a commission of inquiry under the · Public Inquiries Act .to do it. MR. CALLAN: Right. MR. NEARY: The people of Gander will remember that, Mr. Speaker. And what about Labrador City when they sent down their task force of public servants? What did they do? It was cruel what the y did, Mr. Speaker.

They decided to give the people down there who wanted to move, a moving allowance, but the string attached to it, the stipulation was that they had to move first and get paid after. And it is still the same; I have the Lieutenant-Governor's warrant right here in front of me. They have not announced any change in it. These people down there cannot afford to move. They cannot afford to move their trailers. They are economically marooned and 402

March 15 , 1984 Tape 150 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: they are crying out for help, as other people throughout the Province are crying out for help, and they are not getting it . Mr . Speaker, we have very, very serious problems , we have major problems . OR . COLLINS : That is totally untrue . M.R. NEARY : That is true, Mr . Speaker. It is in the Lieutenant-Governor's warrant that I have in front of me . People have to move first and they are paid later, unle5s there was a change made 403

March 15, 1984 Tape 151 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: to the Lieutenant-Governor's warrant that I have here in front of me,tabled in the House yesterday by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Mr. Speaker. And now to add insult to injury, Mr. Speaker, we saw tabled yesterday and announced in the public media,an increase in the ferry rates throughout the Province. Our policy on this side of the House regarding provincial ferries is that they should be an extension of the highway system, they should be free. That is our philosophy, Mr. Speaker.

The ferry between Bell Island and Portugal Cove should be an extension of the provincial highway system,just the same as the Gulf ferry across the Gulf should be an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway; just the same as we should have a four lane highway across this Province and you would be able to drive right on to your ferry and go across with no charge,or a very nominal charge. t1R. WARREN: Gasoline only. MR. NEARY~ MR. TULK: is a right. Gasoline only. It should not be a privilege, MR. NEARY: It is a right. It is not a privilege, it is a right. It is a right for the people of Bell Island.

Let me look at it here. In 1988-1989 the people of Bell Island - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, 1988-1989 .. People are now paying fifty cents, fifty cents one way on the ferry, that has been in force now ·fori I would say,about fourteen or fifteen years. When I was the member there I would not allow the rates to change because, Mr. Speaker, it is an economically marooned community. And, incidentially,I might say beforehand, previously, when changes were made in scheduling and rates,you had to go to the Public Utilities Board. No Public Utilities Board this 404

March 15, 1984 Tape 151 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: time, an arbitrary decision by the Cabinet to increase the rates. MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : Order, please! I wonder if I could just interrupt the hon. Leader of the Opposition for a minute. MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: According to our Standing Orders on Thursdays not later than 5:00 the Chair has to announce if there are any questions for the Late Show. There is one question asked today by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) with regards to layoffs in the public service. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in 1988-1989 people will be paying on the Bell Island ferry $1.25 one way. It is now 50 cents. Do you see what they are doing? That is a 150 per cent increase. Do you see what they are doing, Mr. Sp~aker? You knew, they told us a couple of years ago, in an election,that there would be no increase in taxes.

Well,what they have done,they forced town councils to in voke the property tax,which is causing quite a fuss throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, quite a fuss, causing mayors and councillors to resign in a lot of communities; they have upped the school -. tax that should be abolished, they have upped all of the licence fees- A few years ago they put a dollar on the licences for picking up scrap cars. Mr. Speaker , the dollar is still on but they are not picking up the cars. The moose licences have gone up.

Every permit, every licence, even your birth certificates, marriage licences, everything gone up. so they are saying we did not increase taxes except the retail sales tax-they drove that up to 12 per cent, and put up the gasoline tax. MR. HODDER: That goes up automatically now. 405

March 15, 1984 Tape 151 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: It is automatic now because they have it built in . There is a built - in increase in price. And, Mr. Speaker, now they are going to put up the ferry rates . Now listen to this. In Pogo Island, Fogo Island v1here you have the co-ops struggling, where you have primary producers feeding the members of this House, generati .ng ne\oJ dollars, paying the bills of public servants and public services in this Province, whatwill happen in Fogo Island,~ . Speaker, in 1988 - 1989?

The present rate for trucks , and this \o1ill increase the cost of living on Bell Island, Fogo Island, all the other places where you have a provincial ferry, the present rate is $20 . 00., Mr . Speaker., for a truck to Fogo Island in 1988- 1989, $40. 75, a 100 per cent increase , Mr . Speaker, let me get back to Bell Island again 1 a place that I am very familiar with . Mr. Speaker, listen to this, Bell Island, no industry, the hon . gentleman ignoring the p l ight of the people over there - I ha·d a gentleman in to see me 406

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 152 MR. NEARY: this morning crying out for an election so that they can change the member over there. SOME HON. NEMBERS: Oh, oh! SD - 1 MR. DOYLE: I will look forward to seeing you next tirre around. MR. NEARY: I did not hear the hon. gentleman get up yesterday and protest these increases in fares. I read a letter in the paper this morning from the Commuters Committee, Mr. Speaker, listen to this: Bell Island, Mr.

Speaker, where you have people who are struggling for survival, who have been downtrodcened and depressed since the mines closed~ trucks- $12.50 at the present time, 1988/89, $19.50. Now that is going to really help the people of Bell Island. It is going to drive up the cost of living, Mr. Speaker. But this is the kind of policy that we are getting from this administration. We are not getting plans and ideas and recommendations and programmes to broaden the Newfoundland economy because, Mr.

Speaker, if you want to balance your budget, if you want to eliminate th.e deficit that you have in current account you have to create new busines .s and industry, you have to broaden your economic base, you have to get new sources· of revenue. You do not sock it to the people like the administration is doing now. That is not going to solve anything down th.e road.. We have to get an agreement with.

Quebec and get the Lower Churchill developed, get the contract on th .e Upper Churchill re-opened, get some new dollars · from that source, get the five rivers in Newfoundland, the hydro potential of these five rivers developed. You have to build a four-lane highway across the Province to create jobs for people, Bring the hydro power to the Isl.and of Newfoundland and use it .tn Labrador to create business and industry ~, low ' cost electricity. Business and industry is crying out for it. Mr. Speaker, you do not travel throughout the world with your briefcase and insult 407

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 152 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: people and say,'Look, if you come to our Province you will come on our terms'. We have to be prepared toattractbusiness and industry to this Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. MATTHEWS: MR. NEARY: And be prepared to give it away. Oh, yes, sure. Here is the argument, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to give anything away. As sure as I am standing in my place here today we will hear that said again, we are not giving anything away. But what do we do? We do not have confidence in ourselves to negotiate and bargain and out-fox and out-manoeuvre the people we are doing business with.

Are we saying that we do not have the ability to negotiate, no confidence in ourselves? So we lay back and we let th .e water from the Lower Churchill flow into the Atlantic Ocean,and we let the Trans-Canada Highway be a death trap; it was · not built for these tractor trailers and the heavy traffic we have on it. They give away ferries, that is for sure. And I just gave you an example of a giveaway of this· administration. Mr. Speaker 1 we have. to us .e our creative minds 1 we h.ave to us ·e our imagination, we have to develop our natural resources.

We have in Labrador the largest storehouse of wealta left in the world today. Labrador, I believe, was only mentioned once in the Throne Speech and then only ±n passing, Mr. Speaker. Was there any refere.nc~ to a Trans-Labrador Kighway so we. could get at these resources? No, ~!r. Speaker, there was not. Mr. Speaker, I think that it is about time MR. CARTER: It is time for you to sit down now.. MR. NEARY; -. that the administration, ministers when they are speaking in the Throne Speech. debate and in future debates: in thls: Hous ·e should stand in their place and articulate government policy.

They should tell us, 408

Marc h 15, 1984 Tape No. 152 so - 3 MR . NEARY: and in telling us ,the House . tell the people \•7hat plans they have to help people cope wi t.i-1 th e major problems that are facing them. today . What plans do the administration have to create employment for young people who should be wo=king right at t.~e crucial tL~e in their liv es,when they should be =urthering their career? Instead of that , Mr . Spe~~er , we are developing a race of people to survive on unemployment insurance and welfare . The whole Province has been turned into a t-~el.:are state .

There \lias a time when the unemployed who would come to see us were new entrants in the ~~~ork.force or people working in construction who needed your help to get a job on constru ctio n. 409

March 15, 1984 Tape No. 153 NM - l MR. NEARY: a job on construction~ Is that so today, or, Mr. Speaker, are we getting people who have been hit for the first times in their lives? The middle-class people are losing their jobs and they are the ones who have always paid the bills. And, Mr. Speaker, we have to pay attention to the immediate problems of the fishery in this Province, otherwise, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that we are going to have a very, very bad year in the fishery. I am concerned about the slowness in restructuring the deep-sea fishery. They cannot even agree on a name for the company.

I suppose we will get agreement on a Chief Executive Officer, now that the provincial minister and the federal minister are kissing cousins. Perhaps now they will agree on a Chief Executive Officer and get moving. MR. HISCOCK: Corporation soing . MR. NEARY: And get the Northern Development And get the Northern Development Corporation established and get an agreement for the fisher­ men and for the plant workers throughout the Province. I am proud to wear this Unity '84 button, proud to wear it. Mr. Speaker, we are not handmaidens of Ottawa like the hon. gentlemen there opposite. The Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) used to always love to use that phrase. The crowd over here he used to say, are the handmaidens of Ottawa. Who are the handmaidens of Ottawa now? When it comes to Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, protecting our rights, fighting for Newfoundland, we are