British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, April 3, 2003

H0403am-13

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 3, 2003 Morning Sitting Volume 13, Number 13 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon.

Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon.

George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon.

Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon. Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management and Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries ..................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon.

Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, John (L).........................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn................................................................John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, April 3, 2003 Morning Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Tributes....................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 5953 Don Hamilton Hon. L.

Reid Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 5953 Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 5953 Criminal Injury Compensation Program Report 2002 Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 5953 Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 30) B.

Kerr Hon. B.

Barisoff Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 5954 Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 30) Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 5954 Police Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 12) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 5954 Police Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 12) Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 5954 Estimates: Ministry of Human Resources Hon.

M. Coell V. Anderson Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 5966 Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. G. Abbott T. Christensen

5953 THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 The House met at 10:03 a.m. Prayers. Tributes DON HAMILTON Hon. L. Reid: I would add to the record of this Leg- islature the passing of Don Hamilton. He served this province with distinction and was near and dear to the life and livelihood of east Richmond for many decades. He demonstrated great humour and rare human warmth. He will be missed. I would ask this House to extend our support to his wife of 30 years, Dorothy, as a way to celebrate a life well lived but far too short. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. Introductions by Members S.

Brice: I am very pleased this morning to intro- duce to this House students from St. Andrew's Re- gional High School, which is in my riding of Saanich South. There are 30 grade 11 students accompanied by their teacher, Ms. Grandia. St. Andrew's is an inde- pendent school in the riding, and the students arrived here this morning looking very smart in their uniforms. [1005] Given the private member's statement by the mem- ber for Vancouver-Kingsway, I took the opportunity to have a mini-debate with them on the merits, and cer- tainly they gave good feedback.

I would say that after all was said and done, the students made a very intelli- gent decision that choice was probably the best thing we could offer. With that, I'd ask the House to make these students and their teacher very welcome. Tabling Documents Hon. R. Coleman: Mr. Speaker, I present the Crimi- nal Injury Compensation Program Report 2002. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, contin- ued debate around the estimates of the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services — and in this chamber, Committee B, committee stage debate on Bill 30. Committee of the Whole House PROVINCIAL REVENUE STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 30; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 10:08 a.m. Sections 1 to 85 inclusive approved. On

section 86. B. Kerr: This is an addition to

section 116. I'm not sure I understand it. I just want some clarification on it. In

section 116.1(1) it indicates, I guess, that the onus is totally on the taxpayer to prove that the assessment is incorrect as opposed to the minister proving that the assessment is right. Is that correct? [1010] Hon. B. Barisoff: If they disagree with the assess- ment, they can appeal back to the minister himself. B. Kerr: I guess my concern is that we're sort of turn- ing things around here, in a sense.

The way the assess- ment is done for the Social Service Tax Act is that they'll go out to a retail establishment — let's use a retail estab- lishment as an example — and they'll look at three days' worth of till tapes. If they find a 2- or 3-cent error, they'll multiply that times 365, times six years, and say: "This is how much you owe." Then it's up to the individual to prove he doesn't owe that much — that the assessment officer has, in fact, erred. That's difficult to appeal. Hon. B. Barisoff: Only the taxpayer has that infor- mation.

If they have that information and they provide it back to us, then we'll readjust the assessment. They ultimately have all the documents of what we're assess- ing, so if they bring forward information that dictates t h a t t h i s d i d n ' t h a p p e n , t h e n o f c o u r s e w e ' l l r e a d j u s t the assessment. B.

Kerr: In subsection (2) it says — and again, this is just for my edification: "Subject to being amended, changed or varied on appeal…an assessment, estimate or penalty made or imposed under this Act is valid and binding despite any error, defect or omission in the assessment, estimate or penalty…." I just don't under- stand. If there's a mistake made, it's still binding? Hon. B. Barisoff: What that ultimately indicates is that if, by chance, we go to court and there's a typo- graphical error, then that typographical error won't impede the actual assessment. You can go back to what's actually right.

If there is an error that's been typed in there that's wrong, that doesn't bear the brunt of making the actual assessment all wrong. B. Kerr: This wouldn't have anything to do with the error regarding the calculation of the estimate. This is just sort of a technical error, like spelling or something to that effect. Hon. B. Barisoff: That's exactly right. It's just if it's a typographical error. B. Kerr: Those are all the questions I have.

5954 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 Sections 86 to 94 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. B. Barisoff: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 10:13 a.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills Bill 30, Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2003, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on Bill 12. Committee of the Whole House POLICE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 12; J. Weisbeck in the chair. Sections 1 to 3 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. R. Coleman: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 10:15 a.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills Bill 12, Police Amendment Act, 2003, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we will be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Human Resources.

Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 10:17 a.m. The Chair: Members, we'll have a ten-minute re- cess. The committee recessed from 10:17 a.m. to 10:24 a.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCES On vote 30: ministry operations, $1,417,493,000. [1025] Hon. M. Coell: I'd like to begin by introducing my staff that are with me today: the deputy minister, Robin Ciceri, and the assistant deputy minister of policy and research, Andrew Wharton.

I'd like to thank these members of executive for their help in preparing the Ministry of Human Resources budget. I'd like to thank the many others at ministry headquarters and in my office who have given their time, advice and expertise. I'd also like to acknowledge the hundreds of other min- istry employees who serve our clients throughout Brit- ish Columbia and who ensure that British Columbians in need get the assistance they require.

The mission of the Ministry of Human Resources is to provide services that move people towards stable employment and to assist individuals and families in need throughout British Columbia. It is a vital and im- portant mission. It links directly to government's stra- tegic plan for a vibrant economy and a supportive so- cial fabric, and to our new-era commitments towards responsible government.

It guides us as we work to- wards our five-year outcomes of sustained, long-term employment, assistance for those who are most in need in British Columbia, reduced long-term dependence on income assistance, less red tape and regulations, and the best use of taxpayers' dollars. Before we begin the debate on estimates, I'd like to present a brief overview of the ministry and describe some of the major changes that have taken place since this time last year. The ministry has six core business areas. Employment programs enable people to get training and to get employment as they need.

Tempo- rary assistance is income assistance for those who are expected to seek work and who are temporarily ex- cused from work because of…. An example is a single parent with a child under age three or for temporary medical conditions. It's also for people with persistent multiple barriers to em- ployment and for persons with disabilities who are seeking employment. Continuous assistance is income assistance for people with severe disabilities who are not expected to become financially independent through employment.

There is supplementary assis- tance, such as emergency shelters and health services for people with disabilities. We also have appeals, and we have executive and support services for the minis- try. The ministry is the fifth-largest in government, with a budget of $1.4 billion. It is highly regionalized with 136 service delivery offices in 63 communities throughout British Columbia. We have 2,310 FTEs.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5955 A year ago the ministry was operating under the old B.C. Benefits legislation developed under the pre- vious government. In the early to mid-nineties, at a time when the unemployment rate was actually going down, the previous government had increased welfare benefits and loosened eligibility criteria. It led to a caseload at an all-time high in 1995, with one in ten British Columbians on welfare, six in ten single parents on welfare and one in seven children on welfare. The annual cost to taxpayers reached $2 billion.

As I've said in the past, I believe that government policies had en- couraged a culture of entitlement. There was wide- spread expectation that government would always be there with a handout, that welfare was for life and that long-term assistance could be a lifestyle for employable people. [1030] A year ago I reported to this committee that just over 6 percent of British Columbians were on welfare, and I said: "That statistic troubles me. It represents people whose potential is being wasted as they wait for their next income assistance cheque and who risk being trapped by welfare dependency.

People have gone too long without financial security, a sense of accomplish- ment and the dignity that a job can bring — people who may have started to give up on themselves alto- gether." Mr. Chairman, this government does not give up on people. Instead, we are committed to helping peo- ple break a cycle of poverty by giving people the direc- tion and the training they need to find a job. A year later, I am proud to report back to you that our changes are working. We have supported thousands of people towards independence through employment.

We are fulfilling our government's commitment towards put- ting people first, revitalizing the economy, and sound financial management. We are putting people first by increasing our sup- port for people with disabilities.

By support, I mean more dollars towards helping people with disabilities overcome barriers to the workplace, more support through new legislation that recognizes the distinct needs of clients with disabilities, more support for thousands of new clients who have come onto the dis- abilities caseload since June 2001 and more support through partnership with the private sector to help more people with disabilities take their rightful place in the workforce.

Underpinning this increased financial support is the new Employment and Assistance for Persons with Disabilities Act, which was passed in the spring and which came into force in September. Our government understands that people with disabilities face unique challenges. That's why we introduced the separate leg- islation to address their needs. The legislation includes a new definition and des- ignation for persons with disabilities. The new criteria are based on a person's ability to carry out normal daily living activities, not costs or inability to work.

This new focus on functional limitations is consistent with human rights case law, and the criteria now spe- cifically include, for the first time, people with mental illness. We recognize that disability does not mean you do not want to work, and we recognize that disability may be cyclical and reoccurring. That's why the legislation is designed for people who may have different levels of s u p p o r t a t d i f f e r e n t t i m e s . I t e n c o u r a g e s p e o p l e w i t h disabilities to become involved in employment and volunteer programs and to be involved in their com- munities.

Those who are able to become independent through employment receive support services includ- ing job training, job placement, technical equipment, physical accommodations and follow-up support. The goal of the new legislation is greater independ- ence, including security of income, enhanced well- being and participation in all aspects of our commu- nity. However, we recognize that many clients with disabilities are unable to work and may require ongo- ing assistance. This assistance is the highest available from this ministry and the third highest in Canada.

All of our clients who were receiving the DB-2 as- sistance under the old legislation were automatically transferred to the new legislation and continue to re- ceive the higher rate while the ministry completes eli- gibility reviews. These reviews are a legal requirement under the new legislation. The ministry reviewed about 62,000 files. Very early in the process, the ministry found that about 70 percent, or 43,000 clients, had enough information on their files that they would be immediately confirmed as eligible under the new criteria.

The remaining 19,000 clients were contacted in September and were asked to provide further information so the ministry could con- firm their status. The ministry lacked this information because under the previous legislation, there was no requirement to review or update a client's medical in- formation. In November a further 5,000 clients were exempted from the review based on the primary diagnosis of mental illness.

The remainder, about 14,000, were asked to submit further information using a form de- veloped in consultation with physicians, psychologists, social workers, nurses, occupational therapists and physiotherapists. Many clients were assisted through the ministry's outreach efforts, including home visits, toll-free lines, partner agencies and travelling local clinics. I am pleased that we received almost 8,000 new applications since September. [1035] During last year's estimates debate I said we want to make sure that if someone is in need, they get the services they need.

Today we are supporting more people with disabilities than ever before. Our disabili- ties caseload has increased by 8 percent since our gov- ernment came to office. That's almost 3,500 more cases. I am pleased that we are able to support them and many more who will need our help in the future. We will continue to be there for them. We want to do more for them. As we put our financial house in order, we will look at increasing disability assistance rates. Our government knows the extra challenges faced by peo-

5956 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 ple with disabilities, and their well-being is my minis- try's top priority. Just as importantly, we will look for new ways to help people with disabilities help themselves to greater independence. A year ago I said: "People with disabili- ties have told us they need better access to employment and training programs that recognize their special and distinct needs." Since then, we have developed the em- ployment strategy for people with disabilities.

This strategy supports people with disabilities who wish to work, with employment programs that recognize the cyclical nature of some disabilities. It provides job training and placement, technical support, physical accommodation and follow-up workplace support. This year the government has increased its commit- ment to this strategy by more than 80 percent, to nearly $24 million. A year ago I said: "Our partnership with the private sector will be a key to the success of these programs. The disability community has told us that support from em- ployers is vital.

Our strategy will involve leaders from business, non-profits and labour in the development of appropriate and effective employment services and supports." We followed through by establishing the Minister's Council on Employment for Persons with Disabilities, which brings together business leaders, community partners and government to explore ways of overcoming barriers. Its members are ready to roll up their sleeves and come up with innovative ways to in- crease opportunities in the workplace.

I am delighted with their enthusiasm, and I look forward to working with them and hearing their ideas in the months ahead. In the past year we have improved opportunities for persons with disabilities with two increases to the earnings exemption. Last year we increased it from $200 to $300. This year in his state-of-the-province ad- dress the Premier announced that it would again be increased, to $400 per month. That higher earnings exemption took place on April 1.

That means people with disabilities can participate in the workforce part- time as their condition allows, and they can keep more of the money they earn before it affects their income assistance. Many people with disabilities have told me that they're able to work and they want to work. I am pleased the ministry has been able to make this more practical for many people who count on our support. [1040] M r . C h a i r m a n , m y m i n i s t r y i s a l s o p u t t i n g p e o p l e first with a new category introduced with the Em- ployment and Assistance Act.

This category is for per- sons with persistent multiple barriers to employment. It is for people who have great difficulty finding a job because of their education, work history, time on in- come assistance, lack of English or other barriers. We are exempting people with persistent, multiple barriers from employment-related obligations but are encour- aging them to seek work or to volunteer in their com- munity to the best of their ability. We are also provid- ing them with a higher income assistance rate and en- hanced medical coverage and a $300-a-month earnings exemption to encourage part-time employment.

I've spoken about how this ministry is putting peo- ple first. I'd like to turn for a second to our govern- ment's three key commitments. Revitalizing the econ- omy. A year ago our province recorded the smallest economic growth in ten years. Exports were down. The trade deficit had grown. Forest jobs were disappearing. Mining was stagnant. Tourism was also threatened by the after-effects of September 11.

A year ago I said to this committee: "We know that the economy is going to turn around and that it's vital for all British Columbi- ans to get ready for it." A year ago I agreed with those who said it would be a tough job to overhaul the in- come assistance system in an uncertain economy, but I knew it was important to start those changes immedi- ately. That's why we introduced the B.C. employment and assistance program last April.

This program includes a three-week, self-directed work search at the time of application, unless there are emergency needs, and employment plans for most cli- ents except clients with disabilities and others who are not expected to seek work. These plans allow us to direct ministry resources to assisting people to find sustainable employment and to get the skills they need to succeed in today's workplace. The program also included a two-year financial in- dependence test to support our focus on employment and encourage young people to seek work before turn- ing to taxpayers' money.

We introduced a two-out-of- five-year time limit on income assistance to support our position that for employable clients, income assistance is temporary. At the same time, our policies recognize cir- cumstances where this test cannot and should not apply — women who are pregnant, mothers of dependent children, and youth under the age of 19. Our message is: we are serious about employment. We have backed it up with a three-year, $330 million commitment to employment programs that help clients back into the workplace.

Last year alone our job train- ing and placement programs helped more than 11,000 clients find jobs — good jobs, jobs that pay on average more than triple a single person's income on welfare, jobs in the cities, jobs in the heartlands of our province and jobs that may have been among the 78,000 new jobs that were created in this province last year. In addition to the success that our job placement clients are having, we also know that many other cli- ents are finding jobs. We are conducting quarterly sur- veys, exit surveys of former clients.

We have completed three surveys so far, and they are consistently showing that more than two-thirds of former clients surveyed left income assistance for paid employment. We have also been seeing a continuing decline in the ministry's overall caseload. Since June of 2001 there has been a 22 percent reduction in the caseload. That means 69,000 fewer individuals dependent on income assistance. As I mentioned earlier, one year ago just over 6 percent of the B.C. population was on welfare. That has dropped to just over 4.4 percent.

This is a clear sign that our approach is working and that our confidence a year ago in our direction, our policies and our clients was justified.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5957 [1045] Last year I said that the ministry would fulfil its mandate and responsibility towards sound fiscal man- agement. I quote: "My ministry will fulfil its responsibility to the t a x p a y e r b y m a k i n g o u r p r o g r a m s c o s t - e f f e c t i v e a n d efficient. We are on track to meet that commitment to reduce the ministry budget from $1.8 billion to $1.4 billion by 2004-05, while continuing to protect programs and services for those most in need.

We are on track with our commitment to making B.C.'s income assistance system sustainable." A year ago I said we would streamline our opera- tions. We have overhauled the ministry's appeal system to produce faster decisions and increased accountability. We have already reached 90 percent of our deregulation goal by eliminating more than 600 regulations. We have reduced the number of ministry offices by 36, resulting in savings of approximately $12 million.

We are still providing service in those communities, and there are still 136 employment and assistance centres serving Brit- ish Columbians throughout this province. We have improved our business practices and our use of technology to enable staff to spend more time assisting clients. We are continuing to look at alterna- tive models of service delivery that will benefit clients and our staff. We estimate that these changes will lead to a savings of $26 million over the next three years. A year ago I said we were on the eve of a period of great change for this ministry.

Thanks to the support of my colleagues here, and the dedication and hard work of ministry staff, much of that change is now complete. We made tough decisions. We protected those most in need. We helped find thousands upon thousands of people jobs. We spent less. We managed better. We believed in our goals, and, most of all, we believed in our clients. We have turned the income assistance sys- tem around. Now we are on the eve of a period of con- tinued success. Thank you, and I welcome questions from the members on this speech. V.

Anderson: I want to thank the minister for his presentation and opening remarks as we enter into discussion of what is a very critical and important part of our community — the opportunity of those who struggle with some difficulties, unbeknown to their own selves, in our community and try to find their way with our support and encouragement. In looking at the ministry plan for the coming year, I've looked particularly at the goals. I'd like to highlight those briefly for a moment and then come back to two of them particularly.

As the minister has indicated, one of the goals was employment and assistance for those persons who are willing and ready and able to work but for some reason have not been able to make the connection with the work that is available in our com- munity. There is a plan in place to give them that kind of assistance across the province. It's a new develop- ment, and I'm encouraged by its results.

The employment and assistance services to support self-reliance of persons within the community are also important because unless you have the basic support system in your life, which is not always available in our modern urban climate, then you're not able to take advantages of the opportunities that are available there. I am encouraged by this temporary assistance program. The third of the employment programs or the assis- tance programs is the continuous assistance for those persons in need.

I'll come back to this one as well as to the fourth one, supplementary services for those who have particular opportunities in their lifestyle. I think it's important that we understand the foundation and the vision behind these programs, so that as they pro- ceed we may interact with them as a community, strengthen the parts which are working well and cor- rect the parts which, though well meant, may not have served the initial purpose. [1050] I would like to come back to the vision and mission of the program in Human Resources.

As many in the community will know, I've worked at and been part of this all my life, at least my working life — which is not that short, in truth. I've also had the opportunity to be critic in these areas for over ten years in this Legisla- ture. The critic is one who questions what is being done by those who are doing planning and who seeks to understand them and work with them and help them to move in modern directions. I'd like to ask the minister, first of all, if he could say some more about the specific vision and mission that is the underlying ground and base from which all else is developed.

Our society has become, particularly in the business world and in the religious world from which I come, very concerned about a mission state- ment, a statement that says: "This is where we want to go." Against this statement, then, each and every action can be tested and criticized and evaluated.

In order that we might have a base that's common for all of us to understand what is the purpose and intent of the new vision of this ministry, I would ask the minister if he might elaborate for us in terms that the community appreciates — the simplified terms of everyday life — what is the vision and mission of the ministry at this point. Hon. M. Coell: I thank the member for his ques- tion. I touched on the vision in my speech, but I'll just…. When we did the core review and developed our three-year plan, we wanted to have a succinct mis- sion statement and a vision for the ministry.

The vision, i n s i m p l e t e r m s , i s t h a t w e w a n t t o h a v e a p r o v i n c e where British Columbians in need are assisted to achieve their greatest social and economic potential. With a vision, you move forward and have the mission of the mission statement. We had said that it is to pro- vide the services that move people towards sustainable employment and to assist individuals and families in need. S i m p l y , w h a t w e w a n t t o b e a b l e t o d o i s e n a b l e people to be active in their communities, to be a part of their community. Income assistance, as the member

5958 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 would know, can lead to a life of isolation for people. We want to encourage and support people to volunteer if they're able, to work if they're able and to do the best they can. I guess, for me, it's to direct their own lives. You want to make sure that people have the tools that will enable them to move forward on their own and to make those decisions for themselves, and we want to support them to do that. We've had lots of input into the vision and the mis- sion of this ministry.

I look at some of the programs we've tried to develop over the year, such as the pro- gram for employment for people with disabilities, which isn't mandatory but allows people to enter the programs. I look at the number of people who have become part of our training and employment programs and have moved on and move on with a positive direc- tion in their lives that maybe wasn't there. I can proba- bly give some case examples to the member, if he would like. I think that is, sort of in a nutshell, where the vision and the mission statement for the ministry are moving.

We would hope to continue with that vi- sion and that mission into the years ahead. V. Anderson: Thank you, hon. minister. I think it would be helpful, if you don't mind, to give some ex- amples, as you suggested, because it helps to give some concrete understanding. [1055] I know the concern of many people I visited prior to getting into politics — and many people that still come to our office and that I see in the community — is that once they run up against an obstacle, they're at their wit's end. There's no place to turn.

There's no place to begin to get your feet on the ground, particu- larly if you're in a situation where you have no family locally, where your friends, because of your own diffi- culties, have kind of shied away from you — no place where you can go. In that regard, I would ask the minister if there's some relationship between what the ministry is doing and what the community at large is doing. I think par- ticularly of the instance when I first went as a minister to Regina, Saskatchewan. One of the first meetings I attended was called by the social workers in the com- munity.

They said to us, as ministers in the community at large from all faith backgrounds: "We can provide financial assistance, but we can't provide the social contact, the interaction and support system which the community needs to survive." I wonder if the minister can say how the vision here is wanting to relate the large volume of community resources that are available with the resources the min- istry has which, in past, have not connected too well with the community itself.

Is the vision inclusive of this participation between ministry support and commu- nity support, and how does the vision tie those two together? Hon. M. Coell: I guess I would answer the question in a couple of ways. The vision and mission of the min- istry has been one of partnership, and I would give the previous government some credit. They started to de- velop partnerships with the business community, which was new to them, in the job training and place- ment programs.

There's another side to the ministry that goes back many, many years and, I think, is becoming more and more coordinated over time, and that's the partnership with community groups. We have $9 million in com- munity assistance programs this year that the ministry partners with. As I earlier mentioned, we have $330 million in job training and placement programs, and there is a lot of support there. But there is a continuum of support that clients need, and that would be right from the encouragement to move forward, the encour- agement to do the best you can with your life.

Many of those community assistance programs have been in place for many years. They are not new to this ministry or to this province. Some of them are of national scope as well as provincial scope. They sup- port people on the ground. I've been very impressed — as I say, I've been minister for a little over a year — with the quality of our staff and how they interrelate with the community groups and with the new job training and placement and those programs. There is a real network out there that I think is very beneficial to clients.

The other group we support, which I think is very beneficial, is the advocates: the groups of people who have formed societies — whether it be for the blind, for people who are hearing impaired or for people with mental illness — who connect with us, our employees and the training program. There's a continuum through. You see a vision where we're moving people to a sort of social, eco- nomic potential and assisting those who are most in need. It's multi-faceted.

I look through the length of contractors that we have in the hundreds throughout the province in every city, whether they're delivering shelters or hostels or living accommodations or just a hot meal in some cases. That continuum is very strong in British Columbia and, I would say, has been very strong for decades. It's something we need to build on and continue to foster the relationships between the community organizations, government and movement into the workforce. [1100] V. Anderson: Thank you to the minister.

When the minister mentioned advocates, one of the newer em- phases that has grown over the last number of years is the focus on self-advocates, people being recognized to have the ability to speak and plan their own lives. The difficulties they may have in their lives don't deprive them of that opportunity to be significant contributors to family and to community at large. Persons need to have that and be supported in that self-awareness, self- respect and self-identify, regardless of whatever diffi- culty they may have, in order to participate as a volun- teer or in employment.

Might I ask the minister, as we move into the dis- cussion of support for persons with disabilities who are

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5959 trying to get back into participating in the community, which they've either withdrawn from or in some cases been forced out of: what is the focus in providing the base on which they can undertake to have the skills or the nourishment, if you like, and supports they need in order to get into programs where their disabilities may be an asset, indeed, rather than a handicap? Is there something…?

As we look at the possibility of the pro- gram of persons with disabilities, what is it that gives the groundwork which they build on as the program supports them in moving ahead? Hon. M. Coell: Just to touch on the comment about self-advocacy, I think — and my experience has been — that if someone can get that courage, in many cases, to be an advocate for themselves, that's really a step towards independence in itself. I have always encour- aged that. I think where we see the benefit of advocates in many instances…. I use the Canadian Mental Health Association for one.

They can take and deal with people with specific types of illness. They know that illness. They advocate for individuals. They advocate to government to see that we are carrying out programs that help those peo- ple. Within that group, for example, you've got people who are self-advocates. We may talk more about that as we get through the estimates process. One of the things the employment program for people with disabilities does is that there's a continuum o f s u p p o r t t h e r e . I t ' s d e s i g n e d t o b e f l e x i b l e .

I t ' s d e - signed to improve and maintain employability as peo- ple move up that ladder. The member probably is well aware that there are tens of thousands of people with disabilities who work in the province and have differ- ent levels of disabilities, but the unemployment rate for people with disabilities is 50 percent higher than it is for people without disabilities. We have to take that as kind of the baseline, and then how do you develop programs to help those people achieve a fair and level playing field with people without disabilities? That's the essence of the strategy for persons with disabilities.

Maybe I'll just take a moment to go through the continuum, as the member said. The dollar figure for this year's budget is $24 million. It's up 80 percent. We would start out with the basic assessments and indi- vidual planning, working one on one. These will mostly be outside contractors. They'll be the private sector, charitable organizations and community groups who have put in the RFPs, the requests for proposals, for this money. We would want them to go through individual assessments so we can assess what a person is capable of and what they need. [1105] It would involve pre-employment services.

There are many people whose skills are basic, and they'll need the pre-employment services. We also have em- p l o y m e nt s e rv i c e s , as we d o i n t he $ 33 0 m i l l i o n p ac k - age. That includes job placement, job training. We're trying to work a way for self-employment, as well, to get people to work in the self-employment field. Now, the disability supports is one area that has, I think, probably a very, very important part of keeping em- ployment.

It is the adaptive technology that would help people with disabilities stay in the workplace and the supports in the workplace that would help an indi- vidual get a job, keep a job and then be supported in that job. The employment planning. I'll try not to go too long. The employment planning aspect of the persons with disability services is the assessment. The service p ro v i d e r i s g o i ng t o d e t e rm i n e what s o rt o f f o rm a l o r informal assessments will be determined to develop a client's capabilities.

The ministry hands off, to some extent, to a contractor, and that contractor works on an i nd i v i d u al b as i s , a s m u c h o r as l i t t l e t i m e as s o m e o ne with a disability needs, to develop that plan. The plan could include information interviews. It could include job-shadowing. It could include the collection of em- ployment information in that person's community.

As I see it, there's a whole continuum of services there for people with disabilities to take advantage of the talent and the skills that they have, or the untapped talent and skills that they have, and put them to use in their community. I think that the plan, as we've unfolded it over this year — and the RFPs are out now — will start to really show an emphasis on employment opportunities, not just taking a course and looking…. You know, I can take a course and maybe get a job.

We want to make sure the whole continuum ends with employment to the level that they're able to, in their own community, and to support with technical and human supports in that process as well. V. Anderson: I appreciate the minister's comments. I think of a cousin of mine who was about 30 when he became blind and the difficult transition he had to make within himself to get through that process and care for his own children. My difficulty was that when he got through the process and became aware of who he was in this new person, he was up on the roof tak- ing the shingles off his roof after a thunderstorm.

I'm not sure how he was able to do that, but that's what he did. He was out weeding the garden. I have difficulty weeding a garden, and I can see what are flowers and what are weeds, but he was out doing it because he had gone beyond the capacities that he had before he went blind, because he had discovered a whole new part of himself. I hear the minister talking about that kind of direction. I would like to ask the minister if I'm right in that planning process.

Do I hear the minister saying that this is an opportunity to do a kind of self-examination about where one wants to go with one's life — what kind of interests or goals one would have, and that here's an opportunity then for outside support in order to undertake the plan that you yourself diagnosed and developed? Am I hearing that that opportunity is available? If so, how would a person in the community who happens to listen to us and say, "Hey, that sounds like an opportunity for me" go about applying or get- ting in contact with such an opportunity?

5960 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 [1110] Hon. M. Coell: There are a number of ways. As I said, we have $24 million worth of programs this year for people with disabilities, which will be throughout the whole province. Someone could contact one of our offices by phone or by going in. I think there are going to be some exciting programs. If the member hasn't had an opportunity to see the RFP and the draft RFP that was up on the Web, it's going to open up lots of oppor- tunities that weren't there and, as I said, hopefully level that playing field for people with disabilities.

The strategy we're employing is starting at a level where someone would have the earning exemption now at $400 a month, so that would allow someone to work part-time or cyclically, if they could. You have the continued medical benefits. You have technical aids, workplace accommodations, and as I say, I can't stress that one enough. We're looking for ways to in- crease that on an ongoing basis to have funds available for that. And the follow-up support — I think the member also mentioned that the community support is out there as well.

The other thing we introduced is the rapid rein- statement so that someone with a disability can leave the caseload, but if they can't work or for some reason lose their job, they come right back on. They don't need to reapply. And that is helpful. The first step may be volunteer work in the community, the second step may be part-time or intermittent employment, and then there's the potential of full-time employment. There are many people with disabilities who move through that system to find employment, and we want to support them each step of the way. V.

Anderson: I'm interested that there are accom- modations in the workplace that could be helpful. I think of a big discussion I had in the congregation of the church I was involved in about putting in a ramp so that people could come to church in wheelchairs. The big discussion was: "Why would we build a ramp, because there's nobody coming to church with a wheelchair?" Well, when they had 20 steps to go up, of course they weren't coming. But once the ramp was built, then one of the persons who argued most against it was one of the persons who found herself in a wheelchair and was the first person to use the ramp.

So your perspective changes when you get into that undertaking. You mentioned voluntary work. There used to be a program years ago, as I remember, where persons could volunteer for non-profit organizations and gain s o m e i n c o m e i n t h a t p r o c e s s . I s t h a t p r o g r a m s t i l l available, or is it in the process of being discussed? Where might it be at this particular time? Hon. M. Coell: Just quickly, yes, that program is still available, and there are many clients who make use of it. It will continue as part of our employment strategy and community volunteer strategy. V.

Anderson: I can remember that over the last 12 years I've been involved, one of the continuous discus- sions, both within and outside of government, has been the definition that a ministry uses in regard to em- ployment availability and support systems for persons who might get support help. There have been not only the words that go on paper but also the

interpretations that have gone along with that in the understanding of the purpose of those

definitions. I know there has been a definition used by the fed- eral Human Resources and

definitions used by the provincial. Could the minister share with us the under- standing of the current definition and what its implica- tion is for persons who are looking to go on, perhaps for the first time, receiving disability support? I. Chong: Mr. Chair, I seek leave to make an intro- duction. Leave granted. [1115] Introductions by Members I. Chong: Today in the gallery is a class, who ar- rived moments ago, from Hillcrest Elementary School, a school in my riding. They're grade 4 students. They're accompanied by five adults as well as their teacher, Ms. Eden.

They're here to watch the proceedings in the House. I believe they've already had a tour. I know they're delighted to be here, and I hope the House will please make them very welcome. Debate Continued Hon. M. Coell: The question with regard to the definition is…. I believe the new legislation was devel- oped to meet the needs of persons with disabilities. We understand, as a ministry, the difficulties that disabili- ties can cause and the challenges the disabled have for daily living.

The new legislation provides assistance for those individuals who have a severe mental or physical im- pairment that significantly restricts the person's ability to perform daily living activities that are continuous or periodic for extended periods. For the first time we actually put in the definition the inclusion for mental disorders. The new policies and services encourage persons with disabilities to become involved in em- ployment and volunteer programs, and they receive the same rate of assistance regardless of their ability to be independent through employment.

The legislation also includes people with cyclical or episodic illnesses. A client with a PWD designation who leaves assistance is not required to apply for the designation on reapplication, as I mentioned, which offers sort of a rapid reinstatement for clients. V. Anderson: As I listen to the minister, he talks about a continuum of services and a continuum of de- velopment, perhaps of an individual who has a plan and begins to take stages to improve the completion of whatever goals they set for themselves. Could he help

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5961 us by giving a little more detail on what the stages are when you come to an off ice — between that time and when you actually get into employment? Could he be a little more specific on what kind of employment plan- ning and employment services would be specific to persons with disabilities that would be different from or in addition to what you would gain if you came as a person who didn't have these particular obstacles to overcome? Hon. M. Coell: I'll try and answer the question in a number of ways.

As the member knows, not all dis- abilities are going to create the same needs for pro- grams. You have someone who might be in early diag- nosis of MS, for example, and who may work for a number of years before that disease makes them inca- pable of working. Their needs may be different than someone in a wheelchair or someone with a hearing impairment or blindness. We're trying to look at contractors who can take individuals with specialized needs and work with them. We have in the province many, many contractors who will be able to fill that role.

So you're looking back at individual plans, really, to assess the level of disabil- ity and to provide tailored, unique opportunities for people. I look at something like the pre-employment services. They may take someone through life skills or employability skills or maybe help them get their first volunteer experience. Many times that is a key to all sorts of other opportunities. [1120] I think one of the things that we've tried to do and will continue to improve, hopefully, and expand on is the broad perspective of the continuum of opportunity.

I think that the only way you're going to level the play- ing field for people with disabilities is to make sure that unique circumstances are incorporated into the programs we fund. As I said, $24 million will be there throughout the province. We're going to encourage people to participate. It's not mandatory to participate, but I truly believe that when people see what these programs are going to offer, they're going to see oppor- tunity. They're going to be excited, and they're going to become involved. That continuum will just continue to expand. V. Anderson: I'll mention two directions at the same time.

There are going to be people who have g o o d j o b s a n d h a v e h a d t h e m f o r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s , and suddenly a major disability comes upon them. They have been exceptional employees up until that time, and then they need an adjustment. Perhaps they've become blind, as I know in one case a number of years ago. The federal government would provide computer technology that would help the blind person, or the same with the deaf person, in order to enable them to get back into the workforce. I'm wondering if the minister might comment on the kind of opportunity there is for that area.

Specifically, at the Pearson hospital they had a computer program for some time, enabling persons there to get the computer skills that gave them new opportunities in the workforce which they did not have previously. I think of one fellow I visited while deliver- ing food 15 years ago, who was probably ten years of age. He was operating his computer with a head stick before computers were very modern, as they are now. The computer technological age has opened whole new opportunities for people with disabilities.

Is the pro- gram so engineered that these opportunities and privi- lege can be accessed through the government programs at this point? Hon. M. Coell: The member brings up a good point. One of the drawbacks for people with disabili- ties in finding employment is finding an employer who is willing to make the changes that may be necessary, so what we've got in the strategy are some workplace accommodations.

We've got things like the assistive technologies that the member mentioned — the com- puters — adaptive furniture, office modifications, low- tech devices that assist in the workplace and custom- ized software for people. We use it in our ministry in many instances where we have someone with a disabil- ity working. We can use all those things. What we want to do, through our contractors, is expand that out into the business world so that when someone with disabilities is looking for a job, they know they have all these things in their back pocket.

They can say: "I can have these things, and I can do the job." Many people with disabilities tell me that's exactly what they've needed for many years, and it's exactly what they want. V. Anderson: This Friday I'll be visiting a new home that is being built in my community. Into that home are being incorporated cost-saving devices that have level ledges in the doorway so you can go in with whe e l c h ai rs a nd h av e b at hro o m s t al l s s o t hat y o u c a n roll your wheelchair right in. All of the handicaps and having the plugs and other things….

The whole house is so engineered that a person with a whole variety of disabilities has the opportunity to have a comfortable place, and it can be adapted to suit their particular needs. I know that housing does not come directly un- der the minister's mandate, but is the minister working with community and safety in the housing planning in order that people with disabilities…? Whether you live in your home and whether you can get in and out of it are important. [1125] Another question I might raise: what about the abil- ity to have support in getting around, in transportation in the community?

Are there support systems working with others in the government that would help people who have disabilities to travel in the community and to have a housing and home situation in which they're able to cope? Hon. M. Coell: The member is correct. The housing component isn't part of this ministry, but we are work- ing with Minister Bradshaw from the federal govern-

5962 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 ment and Minister Abbott provincially on a number of s t r a t e g i e s f o r h o u s i n g . W e c o n t i n u e t o d o t h a t . T h e ministry does provide a yearly bus pass for persons with disabilities. Also, we have supplied and continue to supply transportation — electric wheelchairs and scooters and those sorts of mechanized machinery. The member mentioned a house that was in his riding. In my riding there's actually a store where peo- ple with disabilities can go and purchase a broad range of technical supports.

Many of those are adapted in p e o p l e ' s h o u s e s . W h a t w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e i s t h a t those things can also be taken and adapted to the workplace so that someone will have the comfort and the ability to get to an employment opportunity or to an opportunity to volunteer in the community, and have the ability to have those supports in that setting as well as their home setting. V. Anderson: We've talked about equipment help, if you like, that could help people with disabilities be enabled to go about in a normal sort of way.

We've also talked about a plan and training skills that will prepare them to be able to adapt to new opportunities for work which they would not have been able to do before. Could the minister explain a little bit about the job placement program? Interviewing for a job normally is a very nervous, difficult situation.

If you have difficul- ties and are unsure of how your employer is going to respond to you or how you're going to adapt when you first go into an employment situation which is new for both you and your employer, what kind of help is there in making that very significant transition and carrying it through until both the employer and the employee have some sense of satisfaction with each other? Hon. M. Coell: I'm not quite sure how much detail the member wants, but the employment services, the employment job placement aspects of it….

We have the job placement, the general programs that people with disabilities can participate in if they wish. We also have the specialized ones under the strategy for persons with disabilities. That would identify the skills and abilities an individual would have. It would assist in the job search. You might have someone actually assisting someone with disabilities in the job search. The place- m e n t c o u l d , a s w e ' v e s a i d , b e v o l u n t e e r o r p a i d . Y o u could have — and this has worked very well in the past — a job coach who would go with someone.

Maybe it's their first job, so they would have a coach go with them, as well, and have the follow-up services to assist an in- dividual in adapting to their new status as someone who is working or volunteering on a regular basis. That's an added group of supports that are very individualized, which I think will keep people upbeat as to dealing with the stresses of any new employment. As we all know, any new employment, when you haven't worked for a while or it's new to you, is stress- ful. We want to alleviate that the best we can.

With the adaptive technologies and the individual supports, I think that goes a long way to helping persons over that major hurdle they'll experience. [1130] V. Anderson: There are two things in that. If one goes to a new job situation — there's always a nerv- ousness — and for some reason it doesn't work out, either because the employer can't adapt or because the person just isn't in the right situation for that particular chance, do I understand the minister to say that if that job doesn't work out, then it's not a black mark against you?

You can come back and say that one didn't work, and there's another opportunity to learn from having made that approach and that attempt, and then you'll still have support to try it in another way and ongoing. It's not a one-shot kind of thing but an ongoing process. Is that what I understand? Hon. M. Coell: Two things with regard to that. The follow-up supports, I think, are a major part of keeping people employed or keeping them in volunteer situations. That was the idea of having the rapid reinstatement, so someone could venture out.

Maybe they only want to work and earn the $400 a month and stay on income assis- tance. That's okay. We'll support that. If someone wants to venture out and maybe earn $800 a month or more and it doesn't work out for them, then if they come back on, they have rapid reinstatement, which is that they come right back onto income assistance. The ability to support someone in the job place- ment, with technology and with human support, is very important — and the ability to know that not everyone succeeds every time, that there is the oppor- tunity to come right back in.

The other thing is that you're not going to lose your supports — your medical supports, your dental support, your bus pass, those sorts of things — as you go out and try that job oppor- tunity. V. Anderson: One of the things I learned long ago with many young people who volunteer in the com- munity is that a reference from a volunteer position is probably more useful, sometimes, than a reference from a paid position. In the paid position, you were paid to do the work; in the volunteer position, you did it voluntarily.

Many employers would say: "If you do this voluntarily and get this kind of reference, without getting paid for it, you're the kind of employee we'd like." I understand the same situation would be here. A number of people now are being encouraged and want to take the employment of being self-employed, of developing something they can do out of their home or something that they can do because they have a craft skill or something they can extend with. I know there will be some discussion on this later, but I thought in passing, I might ask: is that opportunity available?

Are the resources there to help persons to discover what self-employment might mean, what kind of business plan you would have and what kind of resources would be available to help you in moving in that very creative direction? Hon. M. Coell: The member was mentioning vol- unteerism and how it can have an effect on your life. I

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5963 just would share something myself. I can remember being in first-year university and not quite knowing what I wanted to do with my life, as most 18- and 19- year-olds do. I met a gentleman named Garth Homer, who was a well-known social worker at UVic and was developing a school of social work. I confessed to him that I had no clue what I really wanted to do. He said: "Why don't you go and volunteer? I have a friend at Glendale Lodge. Why don't you go and volunteer there one day a week and see if you like it?" I did, and it had a remarkable effect on my life.

Volunteer situations can c h a n g e y o u r l i f e . T h a t ' s w h a t w e w a n t t o e n c o u r a g e people to do: to get involved. Self-employment is a difficult one. I know the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head mentioned it in our first estimates last year. We're actually looking to s e e w h a t s o r t o f p i l o t p r o j e c t s w e c a n d o i n o r d e r t o allow people to try self-employment. It's been very difficult in the past to get a program that works. I've looked at years gone past as to what was there.

We're going to be trying some pilot projects, but we're just in the process of putting them together now. [1135] V. Anderson: I've been hearing a whole variety of things at this moment, and I'm trying to…. I always happen to want in my own mind to get the difference between the old world and the new world, if you like. Could the minister maybe summarize some of the key significant thrusts the vision and the mission are bring- ing forward as they are developed? I know it's a devel- oping process.

Maybe the minister might be able to say what's new, what's already underway and what's yet to come as part of the development process. I keep reminding people that if you're going to build a new house, sometimes you have to start with redoing the foundation and tear the old one down and start up again, and it's very uncomfortable living in between. In this process of reconstructing a new pro- gram and a new vision and mission, what are the key elements and some of the things we might look for- ward to? Hon. M. Coell: I appreciate that comment.

Any change for any government is difficult sometimes, just outlining what that change is and how it will work. The time lines for some of our programs are…. The pre-employment services are in place, and they started in November. The employment planning and employ- ment services will start July 1. The disability supports will start July 1, and as I mentioned, the self- employment pilot projects will start in the fall of 2003. V.

Anderson: One of the concerns I always had before I got into government, and have continued to have since I've been here in the Legislature, is that the feeling that the persons who are involved…. Let me put it this way. When I was out in the community, I was very much aware of what was happening in the community. Since I've been here in Victoria, I'm not there as much, so it's hard to keep up-to-date with what's happening, and you get out of touch. I'm asking how the minister keeps in touch with what's happen- ing.

I think of some university professors in medicine, doctors or whatever, who were practising part-time and teaching part-time, so that they were always up-to- date on what was happening in those two worlds. I understand that the minister has or is going to have — I'm not sure which — a council for persons with dis- ability in order to help bridge this gap and bring the community and the government-decision making in cooperation together. Could the minister explain where that is, what that committee is responsible for, how it might work and who might be a part of it? Hon. M.

Coell: The member brings up an interest- ing question. The ability of a minister to keep in touch with what's going on is sort of multi-pronged. You need to be in touch with the people you serve no mat- ter what ministry that is, and you just have to make the time to meet with people. You have to make the time to get out and visit. A week or so ago we went and did a day in Burnaby where we met with our clients, advo- cates and people on income assistance. We had a meet- ing with a group of people to get some feedback di- rectly from people who are our clients.

We met, then, with some of our contractors that are employing the employment training programs — a number of them. Then I actually went and had lunch with all our staff at the disability office in Burnaby. We got feedback from a whole range of different perspectives on our pro- grams. One of the things that I identified early on was the need to change the attitude in the business community. We have some businesses in British Columbia that have tremendous programs for hiring people with dis- abilities. Some are informal, and some are very formal.

I looked throughout the province at the need for bring- ing together a group of people that could give me some advice on how we would change employers' attitudes and employers' willingness to employ people with disabilities. I've put together a ministers council. There is more information on the website on the council and their terms of reference and some fact sheets about them, but if the member wants me to go into detail, I would be willing to. [1140] V. Anderson: I think it would be helpful, at least for me, to understand. So many committees in the past have been figureheads.

They were there to say that we had this committee, but they never met. Are there terms of reference for the committee and what it's do- ing and what it's responsible for? How does it tie in? Is that a way that people who want to know more about the program…? Can they talk to these people, or can they contact the committee? How does the committee fit into the evaluation and change and sense of direc- tion of where the committee might be going? Hon. M. Coell: I think one of the things I've been encouraged with…. I put that group of people together

5964 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 just recently. They would like to have their own web- site, to be in an advisory role to the minister and to have an interactive website. That's under development now. There is a terms of reference on the website — the scope and purpose, the objectives. I'll just go through a few of those, if I might.

The objectives are really to identify barriers, oppor- tunities and best practices for improving employment outcomes for persons with disabilities; to improve the linkages among persons with disabilities and the busi- ness community, the businesses and community-based job placement agencies, and major disability income and assistance providers; and to identify high-skill demand sectors and skill-shortage areas that could provide the best opportunities for persons with dis- abilities.

There are a number of other areas that they go into: the approach they will take, the number of times they w o u l d m e e t d i r e c t l y w i t h m e t o g i v e a d v i c e — the membership as well. I've looked to senior executives of B.C. companies and relevant organizations and, wher- ever possible, some broad provincial geographic repre- sentation — a sector or employer they represent that would reflect employment growth areas.

Then there's the member commitment that we want — a group of people who have said they would be willing to provide that linkage between the business community and the persons with disabilities. As I said, I was quite excited for their commitment to have their own interactive website that people could contact them with as well. V. Anderson: The logical question that I know will asked by people in the community first thing is: are there persons on that committee who themselves have significant disabilities? Hon. M. Coell: Yes, that's true.

There are a number of people with disabilities who have also joined us on the committee. We have Sam Sullivan from the city of Vancouver, who has a great interest in technology as well as services for people with disabilities; Robert Harry, who's the executive director of the B.C. Abo- riginal Network, who has a disability himself; Maurizio Baldini, who's the coordinator of peer support pro- grams for the Canadian Mental Health Association.

Then coupled with that are a number of other people: presidents from the university council, presidents of the college councils and a number of business leaders throughout the province. That gives us a good mix for discussion and also gives them, I think, a good mix to give me information and suggestions back. [1145] V. Anderson: That leads me to a question that comes out of that. One of the significant needs of many persons will be advanced education or a trade training or whatever it is they need.

Is there a particular discus- sion ongoing between the Ministries of Human Re- sources and of Advanced Education that would tie us into postgraduate education or, for that matter, the completion of high school education that many persons might need? I know many persons have difficulty in normal circumstances in making those adaptations. Is there a way of facilitating that upgrading of your own educational experience? Hon. M. Coell: Yes, we do have an ongoing discus- sion with Advanced Ed on strategies. As I mentioned, I have the presidents of….

Both the University Presi- dents Council and the president of the B.C. University Colleges Consortium have agreed to sit on the advisory committee as well. The strategy also includes if persons with disability on income assistance may attend post- secondary education. That has been ongoing and will continue. V. Anderson: Have discussions been developed that would be of particular concern to both employer and employee?

Workers compensation benefits, for instance, and insurance requirements and the liability requirements that might be different because of a per- son who has a disability — where there might be more risk than normally would come with other persons…? Is there some discussion in those areas that would give us an opportunity to know that those questions could be answered before we get too far into the process? Hon. M. Coell: A short answer to that is that those are distinct under workers compensation and really don't have a relationship to the ministry's programs.

They would have a relationship to the employer and the individual, but not through the ministry. V. Anderson: I would just like to suggest that it might be something to look at, because these are cer- tainly — when all else is there, they could be — the roadblocks that would prevent people from going ahead at the last moment, which would be disappoint- ing if that was the case when it could be examined ear- lier. Most of the employment in our province is in small businesses rather than in large businesses. Oftentimes when we think of employers for people with disabili- ties, we think of some of the larger firms.

Is there any- thing being done particularly to work in small busi- nesses, where there may be only two or three persons in the business and where this person may have a more significant place? Is there some thought in relationship to small corner stores or small businesses in a commu- nity in the corner malls where there are opportunities there? Is there some discussion in that area? Hon. M. Coell: Actually, on the council I do have the chamber of commerce representatives, tourism association representatives and the western Canadian Retail Council of Canada, which deals with a lot of small businesses.

What I want to do is keep the council to a workable size. As you would know, you could go on and on with people that could add input, but what I would try and do with this council is also seek input from others at all times as well. The advice isn't limited

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5965 to this council, but this council would give me some specific advice on employment opportunities and chal- lenges. Then, of course, you get advice on a regular basis from many different groups within the society of British Columbia. [1150] V. Anderson: I think another thing we mentioned just in passing was that historically, when I was in- volved in more community activities, there were many programs operated by Human Resources from the fed- eral government and the resources from the provincial government, and never the twain did meet or talk to each other.

Sometimes they would duplicate resources, and sometimes there would just be vacuums in be- tween. It's been my understanding that there's been more discussion later between Human Resources De- velopment Canada and the provincial Human Re- sources, and that there are probably prospects in the future for that developing. Could the minister update us where in the planning for…? Particularly with people with disabilities, where programs have been brought from both directions, could the minister indicate what's happening?

I put it in the context that out of the community experience, there were both pluses and negatives to that two-headed dis- cussion. Sometimes if the local people wouldn't support you, the federal would, and vice versa. If the federal wouldn't, the local would. So you have two opportuni- ties instead of one. And there was a danger that if they came together, you might lose the flexibility that many organizations have used very creatively in supporting people in the community. Could you update us as to where that federal-provincial discussion is at the mo- ment and where it might be going? Hon. M.

Coell: The member actually is quite cor- rect in his assumptions about the coordination between federal and provincial governments. Actually, on my council I have the regional executive head for British Columbia, who sits on the council to give us that coor- dination as well. And I actually am the minister who sits on the EAPD negotiations with the federal gov- ernment. There is a need. We have the labour market devel- opment agreement, which is about $290 million, and a formal comanagement agreement between the ministry and HRDC for regional services.

So there are some things that are coordinated, and there's always room for improvement. My initial year working with the federal govern- ment — with people like Claudette Bradshaw on the homeless strategy, on hostels and housing — has been very good. I think that coordination at the ministers' level is very important so that we're not serving differ- ent people but we're all serving the same people. We don't want to be duplicating services. We want to put the maximum amount of service into individuals rather than duplicate service.

So we're going to be working at that, but I do understand and I do agree with your comments. V. Anderson: J u s t t o f o l l o w t h a t u p o n c e m o r e . A few years ago there was the year of the person with disabilities, which opened up to everyone the opportu- nities or the awareness that persons with disabilities had great contributions to make.

There were some commitments nationwide, from the federal govern- ment as well as the provincial governments, that there would be a higher awareness and a greater undertak- ing in both supporting people with disabilities and employing them in many kinds of equity programs as well. Maybe I shouldn't ask the question, but I will any- way. Is there some feeling about what the equity posi- tion is at the moment in the government in hiring, within our own ranks here, persons with disabilities and making opportunities or educational openings or anything for them?

I know that'll come under another department, but it seems to me it's relevant to see if the discussion is taking place internally as well as exter- nally, because I've always been of the awareness that if you're not doing it yourself, you shouldn't be asking somebody else to do it. Hon. M. Coell: The ministry actually has a budget to support hiring people with disabilities. We have many people with disabilities who work within the ministry. We're proud and pleased to do that, and we will continue to do that. [1155] V.

Anderson: One of the realities of our particular community is that many of the persons we have living in the community — as well as whether there's a physi- cal or mental obstacle they have to learn to live with — are new immigrants to the country. They have different cultures, different philosophies, different backgrounds and have a great deal to learn — the Canadian lan- guage or the particular language and field they might go into. So what is the ministry's focus in developing cultural responses that are culturally appropriate to many of the people in our community and reaching out to them?

Many of them come out of a history of dealing with disabilities in a negative way rather than in a posi- tive one, and for many of them ESL is a first require- ment. Literacy programs, either in their own language or in English, are also appropriate. So this is a major undertaking in our communities. What's being done to work with that whole multicultural immigrant com- munity? Hon. M. Coell: We do have contracts through the community assistance program with a number of mul- ticultural organizations.

I'm hoping and I expect that they will bid on the current RFP for persons with dis- abilities as well, and that would be the July date that we mentioned earlier. V. Anderson: Thank you, hon. minister. I would like to say thank you — noting the time — for your contribution, and I look forward to further discussions when we continue the estimates.

5966 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 Hon. M. Coell: I move we rise, report progress and seek leave to sit again. Motion approved. The committee rose at 11:57 a.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Committee of Supply B, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Committee of Supply A, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. M. de Jong moved adjournment of the House. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: The House is adjourned until 2 p.m. today. The House adjourned at 11:58 a.m.

PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply A; H. Long in the chair. The committee met at 10:12 a.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF COMMUNITY, ABORIGINAL AND WOMEN'S SERVICES (continued) On vote 16: ministry operations, $642,998,000 (con- tinued). J. MacPhail: Could the minister update me on the home protection office? Hon. G. Abbott: I believe the member is probably referring to the homeowner protection office.

The office continues to perform very well, actually, and continues to perform in four program areas of responsibility: licensing residential builders and building-envelope renovators; monitoring the mandatory third-party home warranty insurance system; conducting research and education; and administering a no-interest loan program and PST-relief grant program for owners of leaky condos. J. MacPhail: What has been the take-up on loans? [1015] Hon. G. Abbott: Over all, there have been $282 million in loans flow through the HPO.

Of that, about $60 million is for the federal leaky co-op buildings, and about $222 million — or the balance — is for strata con- dominium renovation. The volume of applications is down for the second year in a row. We are down now to typically three ap- plications a day as opposed to around 20 a couple of years ago. J. MacPhail: Could the minister update me on the warranty program? Who covers warranties now? Per- haps he could just update me on that. Hon. G. Abbott: The general breakdown in terms of the warranty providers….

The three largest, particularly in the area of new home warranty — or the two-year, five- year, ten-year warranty — are National, Residential and St. Paul's. Those are the three large companies in that area, and they account for about 95 percent of the market. Willis and Marathon are also warranty providers. In the area of building-envelope renovation, two- year or five-year warranty, Residential, St. Paul and Willis are the three principal warranty providers in that area of renovation-repair. J. MacPhail: So across the whole spectrum of war- ranty, there are four companies involved. Hon. G. Abbott: Five. J.

MacPhail: National, Residential, St. Paul's, Willis — and what's the fifth one? Hon. G. Abbott: And Marathon. The Chair: Through the Chair, please. J. MacPhail: Oh. Sorry, Mr. Chair. I thought Willis and Marathon was one company. Now, how does this work? I'm getting some feed- back from my constituents, many of whom are suffer- ing from leaky condos, by virtue of where my constitu- ency is. In order to have building-envelope repairs done, one must go through a warranty company. Is that correct? Hon. G. Abbott: There is a dividing point in terms of the cost of repair.

For repairs under $2,000 per unit, the individual or the strata corporation would be free to select whoever they wished in the marketplace. If the repair is over $2,000, the legislation currently re- quires that a building-envelope consultant be engaged and that a licensed renovator be used for the purpose. The licensed renovator would have to be able to ac- quire a warranty for that repair. [1020] J. MacPhail: How long have these five warranty companies been in operation? I do recall there was a

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5967 collapse of warranty companies, and then, clearly, these new companies come on board. How long have they been in existence? Hon. G. Abbott: Generally speaking, these compa- nies have all been around for a while. They've been in this particular business since it became mandatory in the fall of 2000. In terms of the companies themselves, Willis, for example, is a subsidiary of Commonwealth Insurance. Residential Warranty Co. of Canada is a subsidiary of Kingsway Insurance. St. Paul Guarantee is an insurance company unto itself.

Marathon is part of the Royal and SunAlliance, and National Home Warranty is also part of the Royal and SunAlliance but, again, geared to this particular marketplace. J. MacPhail: So we've got probably just a little over a couple of years of experience. I'm talking about build- ing envelope repairs now, not the warranty from new housing. Building envelope repairs: has the home- owner protection office examined the effect of war- ranty companies' responsibility for directing strata cor- porations to certain companies for repairs? What's the effect on pricing? Do we have any idea? Hon. G.

Abbott: We're not aware of any sort of compulsion with respect to the selection between the strata council, the consultant they engage, the warranty company they engage, ultimately, or the licensed reno- vator they use. The only concern that HPO has in re- spect of the repair is that if it's over a $2,000 repair, it be done by a licensed building envelope renovator. We do believe there is sufficient competition in the marketplace.

If strata councils select wisely in terms of, in the first instance, the choice of consultant they take to give them the best advice around the kind of repair that would be appropriate for their homes…. Again, the strata council is free to accept or refuse the advice of the consultant they engage, but presumably, the consultant is going to bring to them the best advice they can with respect to who the appropriate licensed renovator would be. Our only concern in that is that they be licensed and that they be capable of securing a warranty for the repair. [1025] J. MacPhail: It's interesting.

I hear anecdotal evi- dence of market forces playing in this area of building envelope repair. It's only anecdotal, and that's why I was seeking information about whether there's any statistical tracking of these building envelope repairs. There is a potential in some communities — Vancouver being one, and Victoria being another — of almost a play of overheating the market in areas because of the building envelope repairs that are going on. I hear some anecdotal evidence that in order to get a warranty and therefore go through the licensed building envelope repairs, companies…. Please don't misunderstand me.

I think the only method of going is to have licensed contractors, but there appears to be a heating-up of the market that is putting pressure on pricing. There is a way to determine that, of course, and that is by community. You can tell whether pricing pressures are on the rise and a whole bunch of building repair is occurring at the same time, versus communi- ties where building envelope repair isn't occurring. Who would people go to, to bring forward concerns around that? Hon. G.

Abbott: I'll try to address the opposition leader's latter point first and then sort of move back- ward into some of the detail that backstops the first answer. If there is a sense on the part of any strata councils, for example, that there were constrictions in the mar- ketplace that were making it difficult for them to secure their repairs in a timely way, we'd welcome them to advise the homeowner protection office of that. The office is not aware of any particular problems in that regard, but if strata councils have that concern, we would certainly like to hear from them.

In terms of the marketplace itself — and, I guess, looking broadly at the marketplace — ho m e re p ai r o r condo repair and renovation obviously occurs within the broader context of the home, institutional and commercial sector construction. That is doing very well right now, broadly speaking, in terms of housing starts and so on. We're doing pretty well.

There may be a little competition for labour, which is probably a healthy thing, but we don't have any evidence that would suggest that repairs to condominiums are being delayed as a consequence of that. [1030] We have about 74 licensed condo renovating com- panies in British Columbia, operating mainly, obvi- ously, in the lower mainland and on southern Vancou- ver Island. There are approximately 24 consultants that work in the field, and of course, there are the four in- surance companies that provide the warranties. Just for the member's information, here is the breakdown of that warranty market.

Willis Canada is the largest player at 50.2 percent, then Residential War- ranty at 24.4 percent, Marathon at 14.5 percent and St. Paul at 11 percent. There is, I think, a fair bit of compe- tition in the marketplace. To the best of our information, there is sufficient competition between those players that there shouldn't be a kind of artificial restriction that would produce an unsatisfactory result in terms of the timely and effec- tive repair of condominiums. Again, as I said at the outset, if there are those concerns, we would like to hear about them. J.

MacPhail: I t j u s t o c c u r r e d t o m e t o p u t o n t h e record that I am a member of a strata council, but I assume I'm allowed to ask these questions. The ques- tions aren't related to anything that affects me person- ally. Is there an avenue through the homeowner protec- tion office that strata councils or individual owners can file a concern or a complaint if there's even a suspicion in this area? I'm not asking whether there's a method

5968 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 for investigation of those complaints but just about registering concerns that could be kept track of. Hon. G. Abbott: There certainly are opportunities for people to bring forward concerns if they have them with respect to either the consultants that had been engaged, I suppose, the licensed building envelope renovators that had been engaged, or, indeed, the war- ranty company that had ultimately been engaged.

I n e a c h o f t h o s e c a s e s , a n d p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h t h e building envelope renovators who we license, there's an opportunity to ensure there is quality assurance in the system. There's a 1-800 number that people can call — 1-800-407-7757 — o r t h e y c a n g o o n l i n e a t www.hpo.bc.ca to access by electronic means. J. MacPhail: I read an

article in the newspaper about B.C. Housing suing for leaky condo damage, and of course, I do have B.C. Housing complexes in my own riding as well. Could the minister update me on how that came about and the status of it? [1035] Hon. G. Abbott: In response to the opposition leader's question, it's estimated that about 250 social housing buildings have been affected in some measure by leaky-condo syndrome. Obviously, the extent of damage will vary among those 250 buildings. Gener- ally speaking, the buildings in question are social hous- ing complexes constructed between 1983 and 1997.

To date, about 50 of those 250 buildings either have had the repairs completed or the repairs are under con- struction. We estimate that the total bill for those repairs could be in the range of $100 million, so it is a very sub- stantial problem. Obviously, social housing was no more immune than other forms of housing to the elements we term collectively as leaky-condo syndrome. B.C. Housing is using well-established cost recov- ery methods to try to secure as much compensation for those damages as is possible. Clearly — and this is not a happy situation; it's a very difficult situation — in the absence of B.C.

Housing taking action to secure com- pensation, we would simply be saying that the taxpay- ers of British Columbia should eat the cost of those repairs in whole. We're not prepared to go there on this or on schools that have suffered a similar syndrome. B.C. Housing has launched litigation, as was noted in the

article on the weekend, but we are not wedded to lengthy, expensive litigation processes if alternatives are available. Certainly, we are very open to alterna- tives to litigation, and some of those opportunities are being pursued. J. MacPhail: What's the basis of the lawsuit? Hon. G. Abbott: The range of issues that come into play on social housing are, broadly speaking, very similar to those that come into play with respect to the private condominium market and the leaky-condo syndrome there. Among the basic issues would be de- sign, labour and materials. J.

MacPhail: How does one proceed on lawsuits as the Crown? Are there individual lawsuits? With 250 buildings…. I'm sorry, did the minister say from 1983 to 1997? Hon. G. Abbott: That's correct. J. MacPhail: The minister is nodding yes. How does one proceed? Is it construction company by construction company, designer by designer? Are architects involved? [1040] Hon. G. Abbott: In response to the member's ques- tion, the writs are filed on an individual basis, and to this point, some 50 to 60 writs have been filed in rela- tion to leaky social housing complexes. The writs are filed after B.C.

Housing has secured the best third- party legal and technical advice they can in respect of the issues in each of those individual cases. We would look, for example, at what the extent of damage is. Based on that, a judgment is made about whether it's appropriate to proceed legally or not. J. MacPhail: The minister mentioned that this is one avenue of pursuit to recover costs, but there may be alternatives. What are the other alternatives? Hon. G. Abbott: The alternatives to litigation are really no different than anywhere else in the world of litigation.

One alternative is negotiation, and hopefully, parties can — ag a i n, b as e d o n t he b e s t ad v i c e e ac h o f the parties can secure — achieve a negotiated solution. To achieve that negotiated solution, sometimes media- tion services can be engaged. Where the parties jointly agree, the parties could move to an arbitrated solution, if that's what they chose. I think the other point that should be noted for the member's consideration is that almost all of those 250 buildings I described earlier are owned and managed b y n o n - p r o f i t s o c i e t i e s .

W e t a k e o n a s s i g n m e n t o f t h e non-profit's rights to streamline litigation. J. MacPhail: Sorry, can you explain that in lay terms? I don't understand that last point. Hon. G. Abbott: I'll try it this way. If it's still not sufficiently plain language, we'll try again. As owners of the buildings, the right of legal ac- tion belongs to the non-profit societies. B.C. Housing takes assignment of those rights of legal action before proceeding, and B.C. Housing then becomes the plaintiff in those actions collectively.

That streamlines the process rather than having 250 separate actions by non-profit societies. J. MacPhail: Thank you for the explanation. Who pays the legal fees for bringing forward the action? Hon. G. Abbott: B.C. Housing.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5969 J. MacPhail: For '03-04 what is the budget for those legal fees? Hon. G. Abbott: While there is obviously an element of unpredictability in respect of legal actions generally, the estimate is between $1 million and $1.5 million. J. MacPhail: I assume that's for '03-04, which is what I asked the question for. The minister is nodding yes. How many buildings of those 250…. Let me put it this way. Have all the 250 buildings that have been af- fected by leaky-condo syndrome had some repairs done to them? [1045] Hon. G.

Abbott: As I noted earlier, about 50 of the 250 have either been recipients of a final repair package or that is under construction. Of the balance, we expect that in some cases, non-profit societies have undertaken some limited repairs in relation to the problems they face, but of course, that's going to vary among those roughly 200 buildings. J. MacPhail: What happens to the residents of build- ings? Who is responsible for the individual costs im- posed on residents as construction takes place for the leaky condo repairs? Hon. G.

Abbott: In most cases, the residents actually remain in the buildings as the repairs commence. In some exceptional circumstances, they may have to be relocated for a period of time. In cases like that, the relo- cation costs then form part of the broader repair costs. J. MacPhail: At no time is there any assessment put on residents of B.C. Housing-managed sites. Hon. G. Abbott: The answer is no. The rent that tenants are subject to in B.C. Housing is based on in- come. There is no additional levy for these repairs. J.

MacPhail: In the city of Vancouver, it's described in the newspapers, and I've had some discussion with the Attorney General on this, that there is a lesser abil- ity to sue for leaky condos. Can the minister update me on that or distinguish any lawsuits brought forward in Vancouver as opposed to lawsuits brought forward for buildings outside of Vancouver? Hon. G.

Abbott: The Vancouver Charter provides a measure of immunity for the city itself in relation to building code–related actions by parties within the city of Vancouver, but the charter doesn't affect the legal rights of, for example, contractors, architects or engi- neers within the city of Vancouver. For the purposes of this discussion, whether it's within the city of Vancou- ver or outside of it, the issue remains the same. J. MacPhail: None of the lawsuits being brought forward in the area that we're now discussing involves city councils or municipalities. Hon. G. Abbott: That's correct. J.

MacPhail: I ' m g o i n g t o m o v e o n t o o t h e r i s s u e s around B.C. Housing. What is the wait-list for B.C. Housing now? Hon. G. Abbott: It's around 10,000. J. MacPhail: What has been the change in that wait- list over the course of the last year? Hon. G. Abbott: It's close to the same. There may have been a slight increase in the number, but it's very close to the same. [1050] J. MacPhail: The minister talks about increases in his budget for provision of social housing. How much of that increase is to pay for subsidies for housing that was approved prior to his government taking over?

In other words, here's what I'm getting at. I want the min- ister to explain what credit he can take for increasing social housing under his government in terms of in- vesting money — that were decisions of his govern- ment — to expand social housing. Hon. G. Abbott: The member can pursue this. I actually give all the

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0403am-13
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0403am 13
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c46e2c4351dadb062868c3b4e5721035198c83a8

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