Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 8 (36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 8 -1:30 p.m., Thursday, April15, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

31 3 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April15, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): I am pleased to table the II th Annual Rep ort, the '97-98 rep ort of the Manit oba Hazard ous Waste Management Corp orati on. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Pri o r to Oral Questi ons, would like to draw the attenti on of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this aftern oon fifty-tw o Grade 5 students fr om Wo odlawn Sch ool under the directi o n of Mrs. Anne Peters.

This sch ool is located in the co nstituency of the honourable member fo r Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). Also , fifty Grade 11 students fr om Technical Vocati onal High Sch ool under the directi on of Mr. Mike Gartner. This sch ool is located in the co nstituency of the honourable member fo r Wellingt o n (Ms. Barrett). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this aftern oon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Jules Benson Conflict of Interest Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My questi o n is to the First Minister.

Madam Speaker, during the testim ony at the Monnin inquiry, in dealing with questi ons of the alleged co nflict of interest with Mr. Bens o n, who was a seni o r civil servant and also inv olved in the Tory electi o n campaigns, the Premier stated that he had not reviewed this potential co nflict bu t certainly that is something I am prepared to do . Did the Premier send this ma tter to the Civil Service Commissi on, and can the Premier rep ort back on their findings in terms of the co nflict of interest, as the Premier undert ook on November 5? *

(1335) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, subsequent to the testim ony that I gave bef ore the inquiry, further inf ormati on came out ab out Mr. Bens on's involvement and he subsequently retired fr om the public service of Manit oba. Mr. Doer: That was over a mo nth later, Madam Speaker, so obviously the undertaking he made was not a very sincere one. I would note that when Mr. Film o n to o k the matter of Seech Ga jadharsingh under notice in this House he rep orted back with a rep ort fro m the Civil Service Commissi on.

In fa ct, the Civil Service Commissi o n rep ort was released to the media the same day that one Jules Bens o n was hired by the Premier fr om his post of being the Tory treasurer to being the sec retary of the Treasury Board. Given the fa ct that Mr. Bens o n stated: I did not see any co nflict in my roles of dealing with the Conservative Par ty and dealing with being the seni o r civil servant, did the Premier, when Mr.

Bens o n was hired-given the co ntr oversy at the time ab out his hiring of that individual and the questi ons that were raised publicly-explain the law requiring seni o r civil servants and pe ople paid by the public to keep their voluntary political work away fr om their role as a civil servant? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the laws of ou r pr ovince, as were originally passed by the Schreyer government, allowed fo r public servants to participate fully in the elect oral pr ocess.

I believe it was the Ly o n adminis trati on that amended that, because of the co nsiderable inv olvement of deputy minis ters, to pr ovide fo r deputy min isters being excluded fr om that

314 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 matter. Those laws have been on the books, and those people who are hired in the public service are knowledgeable and aware of their requirements under the law. Public Servants Conflict of Interest Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, obviously the Premier did not brief his newly appointed secreta r y of Treasu r y Board. The Premier had not sent this matter to the Civil Se rvice Commission fo r over a month bef ore Mr. Benson retired fr om the public se rvice. Given the fa ct on page 57 fo rmer Justice Monnin states that Mr.

Benson's involvement was improper, and there was a lack of a distinction between the roles of a public employee and a volunteer in the Conservative Party , what action has the Premier taken with people paid fo r by the taxpayers to make sure that this kind of action does not take place in the fut ure? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I have pointed out, Mr. Benson paid fo r his actions by retiring fr om his position.

I can say that those actions, where people do the honourable thing and retire or resign fr om their positions, as has been done in the case of some, is in marked contrast to the actions, fo r ins tance, of the member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) or his Leader in not responding in any way to the Monnin repo rt that refers to the fa ct that the member fo r Crescentwood is the only member of this Chamber who was fo und to have done wrong in this inquiry, the only member. No apology. No, in any way, response to this.

We have here the member fo r Crescentwood admitting that he counselled people to subvert the law, counselled people to subvert the law, sits there immune to any action fr om his Leader who does not have the courage to deal with it. That is the kind of lack of integrity that people are concerned about. Political Advertising Conflict of In terest Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Manitobans are asking if the Conservatives have learned anything fr om the Monnin inquiry.

They know that three chiropr actors have sent out letters to their patients asking fo r support fo r Conservative candidates. We know that fo llow up phone calls have been organized and have been made to those patients. We know that Mr. Ted Murphy, the candidate, is a close fr iend of the Premier and has been on many boards, and we know that Mr. Frank Clark, the nomin ation chairman fo r Mr. Ted Mu r phy, is an employee of Spo r t Manitoba and lists his phone number on the letter advocating suppo r t fo r Mr.

Mu rphy, his work number at Spo r t Manitoba listed on the letter that is sent out to the patients of chiropractors. I am asking the Premier : have you learned anything from the Monnin inquiry? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, when this mat ter was raised in the House on Monday of this week, I took a number of actions. I not only phoned directly to Dr. Daien , the chiropractor who was ref erenced on Monday, and fo und out that he was not a member of our party but was acting in suppo rt of a person that he wanted to see become the nominee in Spring field, I asked Dr. Daien to cease and desist.

I also phoned Mr. Mu rphy, the candidate in question. Mr. Mu rphy at that time indicated to me that, to his knowledge, letters of support had been sent out by three chiropractors, and I asked him to contact eac h one of them and ask them to ce ase and desist. I also wrote to Elections Manitoba, and the Minister of Health (Mr. Stef anson) contacted the Om budsman in writing and asked them all to cease and desist. *

(1340) When I fo und out subsequently that there was a letter that had the telephone number of Mr. Clark at Sport Manitoba, I had the Clerk of the Executive Council speak to the CEO, and I spoke to the candidate, Mr. Mu rphy, and indica ted that those were unaccepta ble actions. I ask, though, the members opposite whether or not they have done anything about their candidate in Gimli, Fran Frederickson, who has put out a brochure with a smiling picture of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and has

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 315 listed as the co ntact her e-mail address at the sch ool board where she is the chair of the sch ool board. I am to ld that this is not legitimate, to use a publicly funded of fice and publicly funded e mail address as the source of taking her messa ges and her inf ormati on on her br ochure as the NDP candidate fo r Gimli. I would table this and ask the Leader of the Oppositi o n what he intends to do and whether or not he ap ologizes fo r the use of public staf f and public expense on behalf of his NDP candidate in Gimli. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier, whose staff and the pe ople ar ound him, Friends of Film on, FOF, who have been fo und to be, to qu ote Monnin, a bunch of liars, if the Premier- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would cauti on the honourable member to exercise cauti on in the ch oice of his words. You have been rec ognized fo r a supplementary questi on. Would you please pose the questi o n now. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Madam Speaker, just in resp onse to yo ur advice, I am just looking fo r your directi on.

I believe the Monnin rep ort that was tabled by the minis ter, the government House leader, did indicate that th ose pe ople were in fa ct liars. I am only qu oting the Monnin rep ort that was tabled by the government, but I will address your issue with respect to the questi on. I am wondering if the Premier, who ap ol ogized to individuals, talked to the hundreds of Conservatives who have been placed in government positi ons ar ound the pr ovince in various government roles and resp onsibilities like Mr.

Frank Clark, and has the Premier talked to all of them and sp o ken with all of them and to ld them that it is unaccepta ble fo r them to be campaigning using government ph o ne numbers on government time with government pay fo r a Conservative candida te? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I would say to the member opposite that many of their candidates are public servants and working fo r public organizati ons and campaigning on public time, and we will start to catal ogue them

chapter and verse and indicate to them. As I to ld the member opposite , when it came to our attenti on that a ph o ne number at an organizati on that is not a government organizati on, that is arm's length fr om government-that even then I ph oned the CEO of that organizati on and suggested that it was not a go od idea. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1 345) Mr. Chomiak: My final supplementary is to the Minister resp onsible fo r Sp ort Manit oba.

Will the min ister undertake to launch an investigation int o Sp ort Manit oba, which gets over $15 millio n in grants, which is one of the lead fu nding bodies fo r the Pan Am Games, to ensure that this practice of running nomina ti o n campaigns out of Sp ort Manit oba is not widespread, is not a ma jor pr oblem, is not being part of an overall campaign? Will he undertake today to investigate that and rep ort back to this House? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Madam Speaker, I assure the member opposite and all members it is not widespread. It was the acti on of one individual.

Steps were taken immedia tely up on the Premier (Mr. Film o

n) and others being made aware of this. The CEO of the organizati on was inf ormed ab out it to cease and desist. That has all been done. Th ose were appr opriate acti ons. When we are aware of inappr opriate things happening, we take acti on, unlike what appears to be the case acr o ss the way when it co mes to the inappr opriate acti on of the member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) or the inappr opriate acti on of a candidate in the Gimli co nstituency. Cervical Cancer Screening Program Registry Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questi ons are fo r the Minister of Health.

Successive minis ters of Health have claimed a sincere co mmitment to women's health issues, yet the Manit oba cervical cancer registry, pr omised first in 19 94 in the thr o ne speech, pr omised again in 19 95, 19 97 and 19 98, has simply vanished fr om this year ' s thr o ne speech. So I would like to ask the minis ter if the registry is : (

a) only an other br o ken Tory

31 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr i l 15 , 19 99 prom ise, (

b) a planned reannouncement fo r a pre-election or an elect ion per iod, or a planned reannouncement which will later become a broken prom ise ? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, well, it is none of the assumpt ions that the member has jumped to, and I would suggest that she just be pat ient and there will be fu rther inf ormat ion prov ided on that issue shortly. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, that is a shamef ul answer. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, to pose her quest ion. Ms.

McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the mi nister, who knows that each year more than 20 women die fr om undetected cerv ical cancer which could be detected with a reg istry, when he is go ing to initiate th is program and show some respect fo r the lives of Man itoba women. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there will be a fu rther outline of issues related to services fo r women related to cerv ical cancer, but aga i n I rem ind the member oppos ite she had the opportun ity to be at an event just th is week at the HSC Women's Hosp ital where aga i n an initiative was put in place fo r fam ilies and in

part icular women giving birth to ch ildren, to bab ies, with the whole renovati ons fo r a new LDRP, labour, delivery, recovery, postpartum redevelopment. That is someth i ng that is well supported by women right across Man itoba. I can rem ind her of the sign i ficant expansion in the whole issue of mammograms right across Man itoba and a number of issues, a number of steps that th is government takes to deal with health care issues that are very important to women. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, ch i ld birth and cerv ical cancer are qu ite diff erent. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Th is is- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1 35 0) Ms. McGifford: Does the mi nister not know that ? Madam Speaker: Order, please. Ms. McGifford: He should talk to the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon). Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the mi nister - Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to rem ind the honourable member fo r Osborne that supplementary quest i ons requ ire no

preamble. Would you please pose your quest ion now. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker. am just waiting fo r the Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mc intosh) to -would you please call the mi nister to order ? Some Honourable Members: Oh , oh. Madam Speaker: Order , please. Ms. McGifford: I would like to once aga in ask th is mi nister if he would give us dates, times, places and also assure us that when the reg istry is inst ituted, it wiii cover urban, rural and northern women in the provi nce of Man itoba. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I indicated to the member oppos ite , we will be provid ing fu rther deta ils on that very shortly. She also in her

preamble in her ques tion ref erred to health services fo r women in Man itoba, and that is why I gave her just a couple of examples of expansi ons and improvements in services in the whole area of health care fo r women. Obviously, we take that issue very ser iously, as we do all health care issues, and we have taken a number of steps to cont inue to improve the quality of health services to all women in the provi nce of Man itoba. Education System Funding Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, th is government has been remarkab le in its

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 317 ability to deny accounta bility and to blame others. I would like to ask this fifth Minister of Education to take a fr esh, new approach. I would like him to look at three copi es-and I am tabling three so the minis ter may have immedia te access to them -of the FRAME reports, the audited accounts of this government fo r grants to public schools. I am going to table three copies of the 19 92 report, three copies of the 19 98 report.

I think when the min ister sees them, he will see that in 19 92 Manitoba schools received $732 million fr om this government, that in 19 98 they received $709 million. I wonder if the mini ster could confirm my suspicion that indeed this is a decrease in the fu nding to schools. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I would refer the honourable member to the comments made yesterday in the Throne Speech Debate by the honourable member fo r Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) to get a greater understanding of the position of the honourable party opposite with respect to quality education fo r our children.

No matter how the New Democr ats can fu dge issues and attempt to create a smoke screen, they cannot deny, and it bothers them a lot, that their commitment to education dropped between 1981 and 19 87 fr om 21 percent of total spending to 17 .7 percent of total spending. They cannot run away fr om that. Neither can they run away fr om the fa ct that, during the period fr om 19 87 to 19 98, spending on education as a percen tage of total budget under the present admini stration rose fr om 17 .7 percent to 19 .3 percent. The honourable member cannot run away fr om that one. * (135 5) Ms.

Friesen : Madam Speaker, would the mini ster, who I think has given us a wonderfu l example of his ability to deny accounta bility and to blame others, answer, and I anticipated his response. I want to table another set of documents which show graphically what I tried to explain to him in the previous question. I am tabling three copies of a graph which shows in fa ct how these cuts took place. In fa ct, in 19 96-97 they sank to as low as $692 million. I would like the min ister again to confirm that on his government's watch Manitoba schools have seen an actual decrease in dollars fr om this government. Mr.

McCrae: No matter how the honourable member might want to be creative in her approach to education funding, Madam Speaker, she cannot run fr om the fact that thanks to her and her colleagues, especially the one sitting to her left, we are fac ed, as a government in our province, with debt charges this past fiscal year ranging between $5 10 million to $5 15 million. That is the legacy of the New Democr ats. I would like very much to have had a good share of that, at least the Education department 's share, about 19 percent.

Even if I had that, the honourable member would not be able to come fo rward with the types of creative accounting that she brings fo rward. She fo rgets entirely that during the last deca de, we experienced the second worst recession in the history of this country . She fo rgets entirely that in terms of health spending and post-secondary education spending, the fe de ral share dropped significantly in those years. What the honourable member fai ls to do, ever y time she gets up to talk about education, she gets up to talk about money.

Her own Leader and her own party have accepted the concept of living within our means. I would like to know which member on that side of the House I am supposed to believe. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, the mi nister who seems to think that the audited accounts of his depa rtment are creative numbers, would the same min ister tell me whether in fa ct he sees any connection between these clear cuts to school fu nds and the observations of parent group after parent group that they are fac ing classrooms which are underresourced and underfun ded? Mr. McCrae: Quite the contrary, Mada m Speaker.

In my contacts with something like 600 parents in the past couple of months, their interests are making sure their children learn when they go to school . That is what they are interested in. They are interested in seeing that there are standards in our schools. They are interested in seeing that those children are tested to those standards and that they achieve those

318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 standards. We can quibble all day long, and we do it every year. Every year a budget co mes out, there is discussi o n ab out the level of fu nding, and that is perf ectly appr opriate to do, but when, when, when will the honourable member opposite start talking ab out what our children are learning? That would be a mo re fo cused and a mo re co nstructive discussi on, I suggest. Centra Gas Purchase Government Role Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my questi o n is fo r the First Minister.

We in the Liberal Party find that it is incredibly dif ficult to believe that government can spend over a half billio n do llars and not say anything ab out it in the thr o ne speech, be so vague in terms of the rati onale that was being used in order to make the purchase of Centra Gas. My questi o n to the Premier, Madam Speaker, is to seek some clarifica ti o n fr om the government.

Yesterday the Minister resp onsible fo r Hydr o stated: "g overnment does not intervene in go od business decisi ons fo r tha t co rp orati on," ref erring to Manit oba Hydr o , when posed the questi o n with ref erence to diversifica ti on of inf rastructure in rural Manit oba. Can the First Minister indicate to this House: is this government's policy one of hands off in terms of a directive in giving guidance to Manit oba Hydr o ? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the ultimate decisi ons and the financing fo r the purchase of Centra Gas by Manit oba Hydr o were within the hands and the capa bility of Manit oba Hydr o. On the other hand, Manit oba Hydr o sought the permissi o n of government as to whether or not we had objecti ons to them pursuing the discussi ons. We said that we did not have any objecti ons based on the business case fr amew ork that they presented to us. Ultimately we asked that a number of objective reviews be done, and one was done, I believe, by KPMG and perhaps an o ther one by Nesbitt Bums.

Based on th ose analyses of value and the business case that was ultimately developed by Manit oba Hydr o, they were able to achieve an agreement. We essentially gave them permissi o n to pursue the agreement, and they are bringing it to a finalizati o n thr ough all of the final pr ocesses, legal and financial pr ocesses, in which they are engaged right now with Centra Gas and the owners of Centra Gas, Westc oast Energy. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, yesterday the fo rmer Deputy Premier -and I am asking fo r the Premier to co mment on what the fo rmer Deputy Premier said yesterday inside the Chamber, and I qu ote: "It will pr ovide opportunities fo r gasifica ti o n of co mmunities that have been denied it fo r years and years." Does the government have any ideas on how Manit oba Hydr o is going to be instructed, possibly by this government, in terms of rural diversificati on? Is that the intenti ons of this government, to tell Manit oba Hydr o where it wants the pipes to go ? Mr.

Filmon : Any of th ose decisi ons will have to be a matter of Manit oba Hydr o/Centra Gas 's pr ocess. I can say to you unequivocally that the business case requirements fo r the extensi o n of natural gas have not changed as a result of the ownership change. It will still have to go to the Public Utilities Board, and it will still be sub ject to the Public Utilities Board 's appr o val as to the allocati on of co sts , the justificati on of any decisi o n as to expansi on. That has not changed as a result of the change of ownership. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair * (1 400) Rural Areas Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, can the Premier indica te to this House very clearly: does the government have any plans of expansi o n of the inf rastructure int o rural co mmunities? If so, what co mmunities and at wha t co st? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): You kn ow, I think it was at least five years ag o that the government, in thr o ne speech, indica ted that it fav oured the expansi o n of natural gas on a sound business case basis int o as many areas of rural

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 319 Manitoba as were feasible. Money was put from our federal-provincial infrastructure program, into this expansion. As a result of that, there has been expansion in areas of the southwest and areas around Bois sevain and Kil larney and all of that area. There has been expansion down in the area around the Steinbach, Hanover area. There is expansion taking place in the Interlake, Gladstone, many areas. There is, I believe, a very real possibil ity that the expansion will take place in Swan River.

All of these are on a business case analysis based on the ability for the Public Utilities Board to justify that expansion and to ensure that it can be done within the economics of providing a service to the people of the province in the various areas of the province, but certainly we believe that it improves the opportunities to attract investment, to attract growth into rural Manitoba, and we are supportive of that happening, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Fishing Indus try-Grand Rapids Mediation Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not think I bring any new news to the Legislature.

I think everybody is quite familiar with what is going on in Grand Rapids right now with the Grand Rapids fishers, supported by the mayor and council and the chief and council of that community, and the blockade that has gone up to the generating station at Grand Rapids. Simply my question is-and there are two sides to this story. There are very valid arguments on either side. I would like to ask the Premier, in the absence of the Minister responsible for Hydro this afternoon, whether or not he will step in to appoint an independent mediator to resolve this issue as quickly as possible. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for phrasing the question as he did, that there are always two sides or even more to every issue.

I know that we in the early 19 90s believed that, despite the fact that no action was taken in 15 of 19 years in the '70s and '80s when the New Democrats were in office on this particular issue, and despite the fact that there was a final legal settlement made in the '60s with respect to damage as a result of the development of Grand Rapids and the effects of the flooding in the forebay and so on, we entered into an agreement on an ex parte basis that did provide over $5 million to the First Nation in Grand Rapids.

Further, it appears as though none of that money went to the fishers for whom the principal claim obviously was put forward. Now that is a question that has to be addressed obviously as to why the First Nation would not have put the money towards those who they perceived to have been adversely affected by the development of that hydroelectric plant. That is a very, very valid question that should be looked at. My understanding is that the fishers, with proper legal representation, have started an action against the Manitoba Hydro for damages, and that matter is before the courts.

Now this action is taking place despite the fact that the matter has yet to have any legal review through a proper process. Madam Speaker in the Chair It seems to me, Madam Speaker, that this is a matter that should be left to proper process. If we believe that there are valid rights and responsibilities under the law on the part of any number of different people, whether that is the government of Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro, the fishers or the local community who received a very substantial settlement, any of those things have to be sorted out by proper legal process.

We do not believe that it is the sort of thing that can or should be resolved by this kind of action that is currently underway, the blockade. Mr. Robinson: I just have one final question for the Premier. The situation is such that it could poten tially lead to some violence, and certainly I would think that we want to prevent that at all costs for all Manitobans. Simply my question was, and I will revert back to it-the Premier clearly laid out what the problem has been up until this time. I think that the province does have a responsibility here.

He, as the head of this government, should probably consider the appointment of a

320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April IS, 19 99 mediator. I want him to seriously address that question, Madam Speaker. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I would hope that the member opposite is not supportive of or advocating viole nt action as a means here. Madam Speaker, the difficulty is that the representatives of the Grand Rapids fishers have already initiated a legal action. That action is in process, and I am informed that Manitoba Hydro and the government are co-operating in moving that action along.

So why would you intervene with a mediation process when they have already decided that they want to pursue a process under their rights under the law? The fact of the matter is that it is there. It is underway, and I believe we ought to ensure that it happens as quickly as possible. That would get the matter dealt with and resolved much more quickly, and then I think probably to the better satisfaction of those who perceive that their rights have in some way not been properly addressed. Political Advertising Conflict of Interest Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Premier raised a number of questions, and I know that the opposition cannot take matters as notice, but I just want to report back to the House as a

preamble to a question that the individual and the material tabled by the Premier, the phone number is paid for and located in Stonewall at the candidate's mother's house. The e-mail is paid for by the candidate. There is no membership solic itation going on and fundraising going on at that location. No lists are used, public lists, unlike the patients' lists that are used by the chiropractors, but the location of the e-mail I will discuss with the candidate, because any-[inter jection] Well, it is being paid for by her. If there is anything wrong, I will report back, because we would not want that. Thank you.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, in response to that, it is obvious that the member opposite is saying that it is quite acceptable to have an e-mail that says government of Manitoba, Canada, which is located in an office that is publicly funded, that is publicly staffed, and that is paid for by taxpayers. If he says that is his bottom line for ethics, he can say that, and we will have an opportunity to address it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind both Leaders that this is not a time for debate. This is Question Period.

The honourable Leader of the official opposition, to pose a question. * (1410 ) Mr. Doer: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I pointed out there was no solici tation. The phone is paid for her and the e mail is paid for her, but I have not had a chance to discuss the location of the e-mail address with the candidate. Would the Premier allow me a couple of hours to ask the candidate, because it is unacceptable for us to have an e-mail location in a government office, and it is more unacceptable to have public employees solici ting memberships with patients' lists as the Premier has stated? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will be happy to give him a couple of hours. I have given him four weeks to respond to the page and a half of matters that lay out the actions of the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), and he has not had the courage to stand up and tell his member for Crescentwood that he ought not to counsel people to break the law. He does not have the courage to do that and say that. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Point of Order Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I know the Premier is still smarting from page 16 of the Monnin report, and I know the Premier is still smarting from not taking responsibility for four years, but to suggest that any member in this Chamber counsels any member to break the law is against our rules; secondly, we are more than willing to let the independent prosecutor identify how many Tories broke the law and should be

April 15, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 321 prosecuted and anybody else that is listed in the report. We are not going to have any difficulty. The Premier should withdraw his comments immediately. Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, I refer him to page 58 in which it is quoted: Sale, by his own admission, told Sorokowski: It is my understanding that if you don't want to meet with the investigators you don't have to.

Justice Monnin goes on to point out that that is directly contrary to our laws in this province, laws that we passed in 19 98. That is indeed the position: he was counselling someone to break the law. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Question Period had expired before I recognized the official Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. On the point of order raised by the Leader of the official opposition, the member did not have a point of order. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challe nged on a ruling on a point of order.

All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Doer: On division, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: On division. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have three rulings for the House. For clarification, I indicated to the House I had three rulings to deliver today. I mistakenly forgot that two of the rulings concerned an individual and that I am unable to present all three rulings today.

On April 6 the honourable First Minister rose on a matter of privilege respecting statements he had made to the House in June 19 98 and apologized for supplying incorrect information to the House. The long-standing Manitoba practice is that a member raising a matter of privil ege concludes by moving a substantive motion. This is confirmed by rulings of Speaker Forbes in 19 65, Speaker Graham in 19 80, Speaker Walding in 19 82, Speaker Phillips in 19 86 and 19 87, and Speaker Rocan in 19 90 and 19 91.

Because the honourable First Minister failed to bring forward a substantive motion, I have to rule the matter of privilege as raised as being out of order. * (1 420) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Museum of the Titanic Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, all honoured and distinguished members of this Legislature, men and women That statement could not have been made in the year of which I speak, that being the year 1912 .

Sir Rodmond Roblin, having just adjourned the Second Session of the 13 th Legislature, the 41 members had been adjourned for their summer recess, and Manitoba had 461 ,394 souls. This year was 87 years ago today, and April 15 was also known for the anniversary of that fateful sinking of the Titanic. Manitoba has very strong ties to the Titanic, having lost six Winnipeggers on that fateful evening, also Charles Hays, president of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railroad, having recently

322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 commissioned the Hotel Fort Garry, which we all today still appreciate. I stand here today, in authentic dress of 87 years ago, in honour of the opening today of the Manitoba Museum of the Titanic in Portage Ia Prairie. Ms. Vera Hermanns, sponsor, and Mr. Steve Santini, curator, are well known across the nation as Canada's foremost Titanic authorities. In fact, this couple is recognized by the Canadian-born director and producer of the recent big budget film, Titanic, as being Canada's authority on the Titanic.

This couple is now responsible for a museum which off ers excellent presentations of artifacts exhibited in educational and historic fashion. The museum features chronological structure of story; a number of interactive displays are also available; and set props are also available detailing the 1912 style. The museum has drawn distinguished international attention from the National Post and USA Today. I invite all members to take a moment to attend to the museum proudly located in Portage Ia Prairie. Thank you. Rossbrook House Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, last night at the annual general meeting of Rossbrook House several awards were given out. First to Carl Ridd, a former Olympian and community activist who won the Kateri Award for his work with Rossbrook House over many years, especially with the basketball teams. And, secondly, two young people who make Rossbrook House one of their special places, Terrance Olson and Brian Mink for their energy and involvement with the programming and activities of Ross brook House.

I would like to acknowledge the work that has been undertaken for over 20 years by all the people who have been involved with Rossbrook House, particularly Sisters Lesley Sacouman, Margaret Hughes and Bernadette O'Riley, the many volunteers, and the literally thousands of young people who have made Rossbrook House the safe haven it has been for over 20 years, and for thousands of kids who have gained a sense of identity, cultural identity and empowerment.

I know all honourable members will join in congratulating all those who have made Rossbrook House a beacon of hope for the thousands of young people for over 20 years. Thank you. Sustainable Development Awards Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I am pleased to stand in the House today and speak about the seventh annual Sustainable Development Awards of Excellence dinner that I, along with several of my collea gues, had the pleasure of attending last night. The awards honoured those who have made significant contributions to sustainable develop ment in Manitoba.

They are all fine examples which other individuals and companies should strive to follow. Madam Speaker, I would like to name the recipients of those important awards, so they will be entered into the public record.

They are ISIS Canada for their research and development into the use of new composite materials, the Town of Roblin for their creation of an environmentally sustainable wastewater treatment system, the Marquis Project for establishing an educational organization which supplies inf ormation about global issues and draws links between life in the North and in the South, Isobord Enterprises for their innovative strawboard production plant, Western Profiles Ltd. for the development of a product manufactured from recycled polyvinyl chloride, the Centre for Indigenous Environmental Resources for developing an educational program for aboriginal youth, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association for the development of an environmental program and the adoption of the Manitoba government's Principles and Guidelines for Sustainable Development, Sarah Bector for the establishment of the Pritchard Park Literacy and Youth Drop-In Centre, Kelsey Porter for the development of the composting log book.

As well, Premier Filmon presented Alice Chambers the lif etime achievement award. Ms. Chambers has been involved with numerous organizations that work to protect our forested

April15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB L Y OF MANITOBA 323 areas and our endangered species. Her eff orts to these causes have been tremendous. I would like to congratulate all the award recipi ents fo r their comm itment _to maint �ining our environment. Their accompl ishments m the area of sustainable development enrich the health and well-being of all Manitobans. Thank you. Cervical Cancer Screening Program Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the 19 94 throne speech pledge? a Cervical Cancer Screening Program . Va nous minis ters have reiterated this prom ise in '95, '97 and '98.

On April 8, 19 98, a year ago and after the tra gic and premature death of a Manitoba woman, I asked the then Minister of Health, to establish the registry immedia tely. After much ba fflegab he made a commitment, but a y�ar h�s passed and there is no registry. Once aga m, th is government which claims to value women's lives has broken its word. I repeat again that cervical cancer is among the most treatable of cancers, but treatment of the cancer depends on sound screening and diagnosis.

Sadly, these program s are still not in place and approximately 20 Manitoba ':omen die each year of cervical cancer, an em mently diagnosable and treatable cancer. These women are not merely numbers but real people with real fam ilies whose lives are shattered by these unnecessary deaths. Today, I ask the Minister of Health to honour the government's five-years-ago commitment to Manitoba women and institute a central registry for cervical cancer. I ask him to give us dates and locations.

He has had five years to plan, and if there is no clear plan yet, then I ask the minis ter to show some courage, admit the whole sorry mess and start over, for as I remind the mi nister, women's lives are more imp ortant than Tory ego . * (1 430) Electoral Boundari es Revision Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, just very briefly we want to re emphasize a poin t that we started at the beginning of the session with respect to the boundary redistribution. There has been a great deal of concern. The party has believed that that issue should have been dealt with prior to the debate on the throne speech.

There are some fu ndamentals in democracy, we believe, as cornerst ones. There has been disappointment in terms of the lack of sitting time inside this Chamber which, in our opinion, is an assault of democracy. Another assault is the challenge and the high disregard towards the need to see �hese new boundaries put in place in case there IS an election. We look fo r the government not to call an election until those boundaries are in fa ct put in place. Failing the government's willingness _to give that comm itment, we look to the offic m l opposition to stop playing politics as th _e� are doing.

They are playing just as much po htlcs as the government on this particular issue, and. we ask that the of ficial opposition do the respons ible thing and allow for the leave to take place so �hat Manitobans will indeed see the new boundar ies, so we will not see the type of inequities such as a 30,000 population in one riding versus a 17 ,000 in other, amongst many other inequities that are there. So we give a plea, in particular, to the New Democratic Party today in accepting the government's will to pass the neces sary legislation in order to implement those new boundaries.

We hope to see- [ interjection] You have too, we all have-that those boundaries are in fact passed bef ore the budget. Thank you. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Electoral Boundaries Revision Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would rise on a matter of privile�e because in Beauchesne's it is very clear that, m fa ct, when you stand on a matter of privilege you should do it at the first opportunity in which you have it. In making my member's statement, I appealed both to the Conservatives and the New Democrats to come to their senses and get the boundary redistribution issue passed.

Well, upon sitting down in my chair, a member fr om the of ficial opposition indica ted that in fa ct it has been worked out, that there is

324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 indeed something in place to take that into account . The reason why I would argue that it is a matter of privilege, that Elections Manitoba responds to this Chamber. Each one of the 57 MLAs should be involved in any discussions that are taking place, any discussions that are taking place on this critical issue. I believe, given the comments that I have just heard, that there are indeed negotiations taking place between the of ficial opposition and the government in regard to boundary redistribution.

In listening to comments fr om at least one member of the official opposition, I believe now that there is in fa ct some sort of an agreement. I, along with the member fo r The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), do, I would argue, have a right to know if in fa ct the of ficial opposition has agreed to pass these boundaries prior to the budget. I have been led to believe through heckles that, in fa ct, the NDP are prepared to do that.

Now, unf ortunately, this is a very spontaneous matter of privilege, so I do not know if in fa ct I can just leave my comments on the record as I have just put without a motion, because my colleague fr om The Maples is not here to second the nomination ; otherwise, I am sure he, too, would be as deeply off ended as I if, in fa ct, there have been negotiations that have come to a conclusion that would see the boundaries put into place prior to the Budget Debate.

So I look both to the government, Madam Speaker, and to the official opposition to indica te to me and my colleague fo r The Maples as to what is the current status, the current status with negotiations on the passage of the boundaries prior to the next provincial election. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I recognize fu lly the comments fr om the member fo r Inkster, and as he admits he will not have the requisite motion fo r a ma tt'er of privilege. Perhaps, we could just deal with this matter fo r an agreement as a matter of House business.

The member was looking fo r a vehicle in which to raise the matter. As House leader, I can tell him that the opposition House leader and I have had discussions. I did have discussions last week with both the member fo r Inkster and the member for The Ma ples.

If I recall correct ly, they had indicated to me that they would not be willing to grant una nimous consent to any changes unless they were satisfied that the boundary bill and the bills related to The Elections Finances Act and The Elections Act were passed, actually not just dealt with but dealt with into passage of law in a timely fa shion, and that their comments to me as government House leader that they would fac ilitate an early passage of those two particular pieces of legislation. With that in mind, we have had discussions between our party leaders, between the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the Leader of the offi cial opposition (Mr . Doer) and House leaders around House business. The member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton), although I know I am not within the rules to spe a k about absence, I do not think anyone would criticize me fo r mentioning today that he was not able to be here today because of a blizzard in the North that kept him in his constituency. He and I have had discussions about how we could manage th is. There are some concepts around that we are trying to ensure that will work. In which case, I will be more than prepared to share that and update my colleagues.

I would have done that yesterday, but I was away on government business at a meeting in Ottawa. So if the member -! will certai nly endeavour to speak with him now and bring him up to date on where we are . I apprec iate his concern, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I might as well deal with it immediately. We just had a ruling identically the same earlier on today. It is not deemed to be a matter of privilege because the honourable member did not move a motion. Theref ore, the matter of privilege is out of order .

ORDERS OF THE DA Y THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjo urned debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable member fo r St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) and

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 325 the proposed amendment thereto by the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer), standing in the name of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) with 11 minutes remaining. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I will just take a few minutes to conclude my remarks. The throne speech outlined our goals for the future of this province, and I know that when the people of Manitoba look toward the future one of their goals is to have safer communities and a stronger justice system.

This is a goal that is shared by this government, and we have also backed the ef forts of Manitobans to work together to reduce crime within their neighbourhoods. This year, through the Citizens on Patrol program our government has provided some $76,000 to start up funding to groups like the Villa ge of Dunnottar Watch, and these volunteers work in co-operation with police and act as additional eyes and ears to spot and prevent crime in the community. These community watch programs have worked very well, and I am really pleased that we can support these programs.

Also, while we work to reduce crime, our government has certainly made a firm commitment to supporting crime victims. Interlake women whose lives are affected by domestic violence benefited from an additional $49,800 in funding for the Evergreen and Lakeshore Women's Resource Centres, and the proclamation of The Victims' Rights Act in January ushered in a system that offers a more compassionate approach to victims of crime in Manitoba and gives them greater resources to ensure their needs are met.

So, Madam Speaker, the progress our government has made in partnership with Manitobans has helped us to shape Manitoba into a province that we are proud to showcase to visitors from other parts of Canada and the world. The town of Teulon and the city of Selkirk had the opportunity to do just that when they hosted part of the World Junior Hockey Championships last December and January. These games turned out to be the most successful in the history of the championship and helped both Teulon and Selkirk in its profile as recreation centres.

My constituents are all also looking forward to being part of the Pan-Am Games this summer. Stonewall will be hosting baseball, and Gimli is the site of the sailing venue. The Pan-Am Games will be the largest sporting and cultural event ever staged in Canada and will give our province and the host communities great international exposure and new opportunities to expand cultural and trade ties in North and South America. In preparation for the Pan-Am Games, our province and the federal government are each contributing some $600,000 each to the expansion and development of Gimli's south harbour.

Madam Speaker, the changes to be made, including the construction of boat berths and the wooden walkway, will make Gimli one of the most significant inland harbours in the country and will have lasting benefits for the tourism and fishing industries in this area. * (1 440) I would just like to take a moment to recognize the four members of our caucus who have chosen to retire from the Manitoba Legislature, the honourable members for Springfield (Mr. Findlay), Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) and Arthur Virden (Mr. Downey) and also the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) who will be leaving.

They all have made very important contributions to their constituents and to this Legislature and to the province of Manitoba. Their efforts and dedication are greatly appreciated and will not soon be forgotten. I want to wish them the greatest success in their future endeavours. Our government has put forth a bold agenda for the future in our province.

We are committed to lower taxes, to civil service reform, to continuing trade and infrastructure development, to proceeding with important reform and improvement of our health care and education systems and to building safer communities in all parts of this province. I fully support this government's throne speech and all of the initiatives within it. Our

326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 present achievements are many, and we have much to be proud of as a province. However, to ensure our future growth and prosperity, we must continue to be innovative in our approaches. The throne speech has put forth the vision that we will, and must, follow to ensure Manitoba success and prosperity in the next mill ennium. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, it is good to be back in the Legislature after a prolonged absence of more than nine months. Nine months during which the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) stalled on calling the Legislature back into session. Nine months in which we could not hold the government of Manitoba accountable during Question Period and debate for their policies. Nine months during which this government was hiding from the public and for good reason. I would like to congratulate the new Sergeant-at-Arms on his appointment, also the new Lieutenant Governor and the new pages. I would also like to acknowledge and thank the Hansard staff who toil away not only in the Chamber and in the committee rooms but in the basement of this building afternoons and evenings and way into the night.

I think it must get rather tedious sometimes listening to us. So I hope that from time to time we are interesting and thoughtful and even have a sense of humour. There is one person that we are missing during this session, and that is the former MLA for St. Boniface, Mr. Neil Gaudry. I would like to offer my condolences to his family. I think that this will likely be a short session, unless the government's polling tells them that they cannot win an election; in which case, we will probably not have an election until the fall.

I suspect that we will only deal with the throne speech, the boundaries biii, an election act bill and the budget. Whether or not we actually deal with more legislation has yet to be decided, I presume, by the Premier (Mr. Fi lmon), but we will know in due course how long we are going to be here. I would like to talk about the boundaries bill since I may not get a chance to speak in the debate on the boundaries bill. I think there are a couple of principles that need to be looked at. I have not actually examined whatever principles there are that the Independent Boundaries Commission is guided by.

We certainly support an Independent Boundaries Commission, but one of the principles that I think they should look at is making boundaries contiguous with neighbourhoods and communities. [interjection] Communities of interest, as the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) points out. In 19 89, a major change was made in the boundaries of Burrows constituency whereby four polls south of CPR marshal ling yards were added to Burrows. In the past, they had always been in a constituency north of the CPR tracks.

While the socioeconomic characteristics are somewhat simi lar, there is really no community of interest because the tracks are quite a barrier, and it really did not make sense. However, in their wisdom, the Independent Boundaries Commission, with the new map, have taken those polls out of Burrows and given them to Well ington and also taken five polls or so, actually six polls, along McGregor Street out of Burrows and added them to Point Douglas. I am very sorry to say that I am going to lose my best poll at Ivan Franko Manor.

However, they did add a contiguous area west of McPhillips all the way to Keewatin Street and added 14 polls from Inkster to Burrows. It consists of three distinct areas: the Shaughnessy area, the Gilbert Park area, and two housing co ops- Willow Park East Housing Co-op and Wiilow Park Housing Co-op. I had the pleasure of living in Willow Park East Housing Co-op for three years and was also on the board of directors and on a number of committees. It was a very good place to live, and I think it probably stiii is.

There are also a number of institutions in the new boundaries of Burrows, including Fred Douglas Lodge, which was established by the United Church, also Sisler High School, the school that both of our child ren attended, and also the CPR Weston Shops. The McPhillips Street Station, the gambling emporium, will now be in my constituency. I hear a lot of criticism about gambling in Manitoba and I think the problems are only going to get worse. Just last week I heard of a

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 327 very tragic situation where a young man committed suicide and his friends suspect that gambling may have been one of the contributing causes. I think that there is already evidence that there is a considerable social cost to gambling and that in future I think there may be evidence that the social costs are greater than the revenue to government. Someone has said that all politics is local, so I would like to begin with some local issues. Probably one of the biggest issues in my constituency is crime.

However, the constituents of Burrows are responding to this issue in a positive way. I have been involved with helping to organize and support two citizen patrols. The first one that began in Burrows constituency was called and is called the Old Exhibition Neighbourhood Patrol around the old Ex park. The second one is Night Owls Neighbourhood Patrol. I went out on patrol with the Night Owls Neighbourhood Patrol and also with Lord Selkirk area patrol on a foot patrol. These are significant initiatives by citizens in Bu rrows and all around our province.

They are a very good idea because it is citizens who are taking responsibil ity for their own community. Now, it is true that the primary responsibil ity for policing is with the police, but neighbourhood or citizen patrols become the eyes and ears of the police.

They are prohibited from confronting individuals or engaging in any kind of police type action other than writing down license numbers and passing them on to the police, but there is good evidence to show and statistics to show that where citizen patrols are in effect that there are lower crime rates and even much lower crime rates in areas with citizen patrols. Now, there is a need for increasing the police presence in areas like the north end of Winnipeg. I believe the best way to do that is by extending police foot patrols, which is happening.

Already there is a large area of the north end that is covered by foot patrols, and there is a need to extend that to other parts of the north end. Another significant problem in our neighbourhood which is also linked to crime is that of prostitution. I think that there needs to be a crackdown on johns cruising residential neighbourhoods.

This is a very serious problem, not only because of the victimiz ation, in many cases, of adolescents, but, because it has an effect on people who live in the neighbourhood, people who are being solici ted who are not involved in this trade, and also it has an effect on property values. This problem is so serious that we are now hearing stories of families who are becoming dependent on the income from prostitution. Someone has described this as Thailand in the inner city of Winnipeg. It is shocking that this is happening in our community.

For six years my wife and I attended parent council meetings at Sisler High School. Sisle r High School, I believe, is the largest high school in Manitoba. We are very proud that our two children graduated from Sisler High School. There are some concerns that need to be addressed at Sis ler High School. These were raised actually by students at a parent council meeting. The parent council and the administrators have taken these concerns very seriously and continue to.

They were discussed at a parent council meeting on November 3, 19 97, and, as a result, communications, I believe in the form of letters, were sent to the Public Schools Finance Board in support of a petition presented to the school board for better change facilities for women at Sisl er High School.

This is an issue that I think the Public Schools Finance Board should respond to positively, although they have not in the last few years, but there is the possibili ty, because students have raised it, of women students of Sisler High School taking a complaint to the Human Rights Commission of Manitoba because they do not have adequate change facilities. The main reason for that is that the football team has taken over the women's change room, and the smell is so bad that even when the football season is over, the girls will not use that locker room.

So you have the ridiculous situation of visi ting teams changing in washrooms, and it is totally unacceptable that there be different kinds of facilities for girls than for boys at Sisler High School. * (1 450)

328 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 I have actually been encouraging them to go to the Human Rights Commission and file a complaint. It seems that it may be the only way to get the Public Schools Finance Board to build adequate change facilities and other facilities which have been requested, including an addition with offices, et cetera, adjacent to the gymnasium. So a letter was written to the Minister of Finance and to the Premier with copies to the school board trustees in an attempt to access some of the funds from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund to improve many of the facilities at Sisler.

Of course, governments always want to know when you are asking for something how you are going to pay for it, and the parents at Sisler High School suggested that the Fiscal Stabilization Fund with its hundreds of millions of dollars would be an appropriate place to take the money from. Also, correspondence was sent to the division's board of trustees asking them to place Sisler's need for improved facilities at the top of their priority.

Now, since that correspondence was sent, there have been a number of announcements by the Public Schools Finance Board about new schools and renovations to existing schools, and Sisler regrettably will not be getting new change facilities. They are doing other kinds of renovations and improvements but not that particular one. From time to time, I, like many of my colleagues, consult my constituents and ask them what issues are important to them. I have been mailing out a card which says it is your tum to speak out, and the back is blank and leaves a space for people to write in.

I would like to quote from some of the comments that people have written on these cards because they are very, very interesting. One person said: Health care must be preserved at all costs. We paid for it for years. I am 83 years old, and if I need it, it should be there for me now, not a year waiting list. Another comment was Filmon's government surplus is made on the backs of seniors and ill people who cannot fight back. Another said we are seniors and for the first time we are afraid to open our doors to the children on Halloween night.

Another said the deterioration of all social services has turned our city into a fine example of a Third World metropolis with an ever increasing void between the rich and the poor. Whatever became of the middle class? Another comment was the MTS proposed rate hike will directly affect the elderly, single parents and low-income families, denying many of them what is often their only link to help in an emergency. Life and health and home are at risk if you have to rely on neighbours being home or running to a pay phone in the event of an emergency or a fire.

The best comment of all was that of a constituent who wrote: I found the health advertising as being a scandalous disgrace of premeditated perfidy, an insult to the populous, a nef arious collusion that must be expunged forthwith. Where stands the Premier? A very interesting survey. I have been reading comments into the record, and this was one of my favourite.

When we summarized these concerns, we found that 64 percent of people commen ted on health care, 42 percent commented on community safety, 28 percent commented on telephone rates, 20 percent on child poverty, 8 percent on the increasing wage gap, 8 percent on poverty as opposed to child poverty, 8 percent on lottery money mismanagement, and other issues, 28 percent. So those are very interesting views which I appreciate from my constituents in Burrows.

Looking at this government's throne speech, there were many things that we looked for and the citizens of Manitoba looked for and did not find, and it is disappointing that the government did not address many issues because there are many things that Manitobans wanted and expected to hear at the beginning of this session; for example, concrete measures to end the crisis in health care by dealing with nursing, doctor and bed shortages and a health capital plan that moves as swiftly as casino expansions.

Now, it is very ironic that this government could find $55 million in the Lotteries Corporation to expand two casinos and have them open this year but they cannot open nursing home beds

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 329 fast enough because they cancelled the capital funding for nursing homes after the 19 95 election. This government did it for a reason, because they wanted to save up money in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund so they would have a huge surplus, now close to $600 million, to use in this election to try and buy their way back into of fice with goodies in the upcoming budget, just to grease the wheels a bit, as the Minister of Agriculture, the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) says. Shame on him.

People were also expecting a long-term perspective on health care rather than a boom and-bust investment strategy coinciding with elections. It seems that there is nothing new under the sun, to quote a famous Biblical passage which the member for Lakeside should also be familiar with. It is not just coincidence that we are getting all kinds of announcements just bef ore an election in the spring of 19 99. We had all kinds of health care announcements before the election in 19 95 and before the 19 90 election.

It always happens that they have a strategy and a vision and a plan just before an election, but after the election half of it goes out the window, and then they wonder why there is a crisis in health care. An Honourable Member: They built a brand new hospital in my area. Mr. Martindale: Well, it seems the Tory areas are getting new hospitals. In north Winnipeg, your government tried to close Seven Oaks Hospital and tum it into a long-term care facility.

If it had not been for the residents of north Winnipeg coming down to the Legislature and writing letters and making phone calls and having rallies at Seven Oaks Hospital, you probably would have gotten away with it, but you did not because the people of north Winnipeg stood up to your government and said that it was unacceptable not to have a community hospital in north Winnipeg. [interjection] And that is the truth.

The people of Manitoba were looking for a long-term, stable commitment to public education, both to ensure that each of our schools provides a quality education to our children and to reduce the relia nce of school divisions on property taxes. Now, I was just asked yesterday for a web site that the CBC is keeping on all of us for the next election, and all candidates in the next election, so I got interviewed by a student from Red River College, as I am sure everyone did, not just the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) and I.

He asked me what the issues were in Burrows, and I said health care, education, crime and property taxes, and we probably do not hear about any other issue in terms of taxation more than the issue of property taxes, particularly education taxes which are a regressive kind of tax because they are not based on the ability to pay.

We know that the offloading of this government in terms of education costs to school divisions is being made up by an increase in property taxes, and it is most unfair and people are fed up with this kind of increased taxation, especially from a government that says they never increase taxes. The people of Manitoba are looking for a strategy that links economic development to skills training and higher education as proposed five years ago by former Premier Roblin and aims at making Manitoba a high skills economy where young people will want to remain and settle.

One of the problems that we have now is that this government is trying to create low skilled jobs and a low wage economy because all they care about is numbers and prosperity for business but not seeing that people earn an adequate income to support their family.

We know that real wages are falling in Manitoba, and the people of Manitoba know that, but they do not see a commitment by this government to create an education system that promotes a high level of skills in education and an economy based on high skills where people will want to remain in Manitoba instead of leaving for Alberta, B.C., Ontario and other provinces to get jobs. * (1 500) People want a frank acknowledgment of the problem of child poverty leading to a commitment by government to attack the roots of poverty through education and employment.

People want a real commitment to land-use policies that will stem urban sprawl in the

330 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 Winnipeg region, to a system of Capital Region governance that will ensure we do not repeat the Headingley fiasco that is encouraging municipalities to rezone land, so that more and more people can flee the city of Winnipeg and leave us with all the problems. People expect a new partnership with aboriginal people that makes good on the promises of the last decade, including promises on the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report recommendations on education, on health and infrastructure.

Probably there has never been as great a need to enter into partnerships with aboriginal people as there is now. Aboriginal people are more cynical about this government than they have ever been in the past, partly because of the vote-rigging scandal where this government tried to use aboriginal people. As a result they have lost faith and lost trust-what little faith and trust they have had-in this government who really do not have a strategy to make aboriginal people partners in this province.

People are looking for an acknowledgment of the challenges facing northern and rural communities with commitments to deal with problems like falling commodity prices, loss of railways and doctor and nurse shortages. Many of my commitments would have benefited from health care improvements several years ago; instead, this government is going the other way. Probably a good example is waiting lists and the fact that if people have money they do not have to wait. They can pay for services if they have $1 ,000, for example, for cataract surgery. This is the kind of health care system that people do not want.

This is the two-tier health system that exists in the United States where something like 30 million people, maybe it is 40 million people, have no health insurance coverage at all, and about an equal number have very inadequate health coverage. Only those who are much more affluent can afford to provide themselves with private insurance. Now we are drifting because of this government's drift into that kind of system, where if you have money you can get services immediately in some areas, and if you do not, you are stuck, you are on a waiting list.

There are many tax and fee increases that constituents have faced that will not be made up for by election year tax bribes. Certainly there are many, many tax and fee increases that people have to pay, whether it is for adoptions because The Adoption Act now allows for fees of $5,000 or $6,000 to pay for adoptions or whether it is almost any government department charging for something on a cost-recovery basis. There are many neighbourhood problems that have festered for years without a government response.

In my constituency, the closure of the North Y in 19 95, increases in crime and the increase in the number of houses that have been boarded up are directly a result of the inaction of this government. We know, for example, in the area of housing that the federal government stopped funding to all social housing under the Mulroney government, about 19 93. As soon as the federal government did that, the provincial government cut out all funding for social housing, whether it was nonprofit housing or co-op housing.

As a result, almost no new housing has been built in the inner city, and programs like the Residential Rehabilitation Assis tance Program for landlords and for tenants were elim inated. Almost all of the housing programs that were in ef fect by this government have been elim inated, and the result is that many, many neighbourhoods in the inner city in particular are deteriorating. There are some nonprofit groups like Just Housing who are trying to do good things in the north end with almost no resources.

We are not advocating that the government put mill ions and milli ons of dollars- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I wonder if I might ask those people having a meeting on the Chamber floor to move into the loge or to their respective seats. I am having difficulty hearing the honourable member for Burrows. Mr. Martindale: Thank you for your timely intervention, Madam Speaker. I hope they listen to your good advice.

What we have advocated and what our housing platform advocates is giving money to community groups, to nonprofit groups so that they can expand the good things that they are already doing, so that the initiative and the ideas come from communities, from neighbourhoods, from individuals, from nonprofit organizations and that they be the ones that be empowered to

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 33 1 identify the needs in their community and to renovate houses and to build houses, which we know this government is not going to do. They are not going to steal our good ideas on housing, but we are going to have to change the government in order to impleme nt the good ideas from our Housing critic and many people in our party who are giving us very good advice and people in the community, in the nonprofit groups that are already working in the area of housing.

We know that this government is being lobbied by many groups in the community on the issue of poverty. In fact, recently the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg met with the Premier (Mr. Filmon), and they went with a proposal. They wanted the Premier to set up a round table on poverty, but the Premier and his government do not want to say the "p" word. They cannot bring themselves to say poverty and so they changed it. They said: oh, no, we will not have a round table on poverty, but we will have a round table on healthy communities so they do not have to say the poverty word.

They will not have to admit that the province of Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in Canada. They do not want to admit that our poverty rates here are a disgrace, a national disgrace, and so they are going to have a round table on something that sounds a little more positive, a round table on healthy communities. There are ways that this government could address the problem. One way in particular is the National Child Benefit, which was brought in by the federal government.

Unfortunately, the federal government and the provinces agreed that as a result of this new money, I believe $850 million in the first year, that no child would be worse off, which has to be one of the worst bottom lines in the history of Conf ederation. They said: here, we will give you the new money, but you can do whatever you want with it. So in Newfoundland and New Brunswick, to their credit, those governments, neither of which is a New Democratic Party government, are letting all families keep all of the money. What are the other provinces doing?

Well, some of them are using the National Child Benefit money and putting it into the pockets of people, putting it into the pockets of working people; for example, in Saskatchewan and in British Columbia. What are they doing with it in Manitoba? Well, in Manitoba they are clawing all of it back. What actually happens is quite interesting. People get more money in their National Child Benefit cheque and then dollar for dollar it is deducted from their welfare cheque, so they are no further ahead. The money is being channelled by the Minister of Family Services into pilot projects, the minister's pilot projects.

Many of them are good ideas and many of them are needed. Many of them are the kinds of things that we recommended in our Healthy Child platform of a number of years ago, which the Premier has borrowed some of the language of. However, we think that we should be doing both, that we should let all families keep all of the money and we should be doing good things in the community by way of programs. For example, the federal government has one called Healthy Start for Mom and Me, and I have been to some of their sites in the north end. It is a good program, and they are getting very positive evaluations.

The users, the participa nts in these programs are saying very positive things about it, and there is a need for these kinds of programs. We think that government should be letting people keep the National Child Benefit and doing good things in the community as well. *( 1510 ) I do not think the government has a plan for stemming urban decay in the inner city in Winnipeg. Maybe in their budget they will announce a little bit of money. Certainly they have lots of money there to make lots of announcements, but I do not think they care about the inner city or the north end or the neighbourhoods that I represent.

If they did, I think we would have seen an announcement in the throne speech that gave us an idea or a plan as to what they are going to do about some of the problems in the inner city in the north end. An Honourable Member: That would be giving away our secrets. Mr. Martindale: Well, as the minister said, that would be giving away their secrets, so I guess we will have to wait for the budget. We know

332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 that they have about $600-million surplus to play with for election announcements, whether it is tax reductions or allegedly more money in health, allegedly more money in education. They would just love to run on their budget and try and buy their way back into office. Now we did see the establishment of neighbourhood renewal committees announced in the throne speech, seeking new partnerships with the federal government and giving the city more options for tax reduction, which will postpone any ma jor commitment of resources until after the election.

So we have already had an announcement, but there is no substance to it. In the meantime, there is no acknowledgment of the role that prov incial policy has played in the decline of Winnipeg neighbourhoods through the absence of land use regulation; the encouragement of exurban sprawl, for example, Headingley's water sup?ly and matching grants for commuter artenes; ineffective Capital Region governance; the inadequacies of the Winnipeg Development Agreement; reduced support for training, housing and recreation options.

Simi larly, there is no acknowledgment of the provincial government's role in the escalation . of t_he property tax, the tax that is most out of !me with other jurisdictions due to reduced provincial support for schools. There are several promises in the throne speech which mirror longstanding NDP policies. This includes the promise of an elected Speaker, but not just yet. It will have to wait until after the election. The promise of classifications for video games and the promise of public partici pation on health boards.

There is an indication of more support for special needs students, but without any elaboration on detail. We hope that the government will give us the detail in their budget, because we know that we have the special needs report. We know that there are many, many parents who are contacting us on a regular basis who have special needs students and cannot get the kind of supports in the classroom that they need. Many of these stories are quite touching. Many of them involve a great deal of hardship on the part of the families involved. For example, I had one family contact me.

Because of waiting lists and because they cannot get resources into their home because of, I guess, a scarcity of resources, they are spending $1 4,000 a year to get paid professionals into their home and help their child. This is the kind of financial burden that people should not have to bear, especially when we know that with early intervention many of these chil dren can experience great improvements and be integrated into school classrooms and lead a much more normal life. That is what we would want for all our children.

These complaints were building and building for many years until the Minister of Education appointed a Special Needs Review Committee. The government has their report. There are many good recommendations in that repon, and we are waiting to see if this government is going to take any action on it and which of the recommendations, if any, they are going to implement. Now it is also interesting to see this Tory government taking credit for NDP policies and legacies of the past. For example, low hydro rates and low MPI rates are cited as among the bright spots in the Manitoba economy.

So it is always good to get credit for policies that were implemented originally by an NDP government, but no mention is made of the Tories' opposition to Autopac when it was first brought in and also to the construction of the Limestone hydro dam. Also, no mention is made of MTS rates, which were also once part of the so-called Manitoba Advantage. The boast that the Workers Compensation Board has moved to a surplus position should really be explained as being on the backs of workers in Manitoba. It is very easy to go from a deficit to a surplus when you cut benefits to workers.

I know that they have reduced the premiums, but we think that they should have continued the benefits to the workers. In the long term, yes, if there is an opportunity because the deficit has been elimin ated to reduce premiums, then that should be done as well, but not at the expense of the benefits for workers. There is no mention in the throne speech of the province's gang problem, even as the decline

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 333 and decay of Winnipeg neighbourhoods is acknowledged and mil lions of dollars are spent constructing a new gang court. You know, yesterday I was given a ride home from a meeting by one of my constituents who grew up in the north end, and he made a very interesting comment. He said, when he was growing up, bad kids threw snowballs at buses. He said: today bad kids steal cars. I think that is reflective of a change in our society whereby the kinds of activities that are going on are much more serious than in the past.

When the level of inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour has changed to that degree, we need to see a substantial change in the way our society either deals with the behaviour or implements preventative programs. Just a few weeks ago I was at the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg for an open house for a program funded by the Justice department, I believe federally and provincial ly. They have healing circles for aboriginal people who are referred to them by the courts. They had a very interesting statement, I guess sort of a mission statement, on the wall.

It talked about the choice that people can make between doing healing time or jail time. I asked about the success rate of the people that have been referred to their program. I believe it started about last September. They have had about 70 individuals go through their healing circle, and they said that not one of them has gone back to court. We need to have many more of these diversion programs, especially for first offenders, because we know that youth justice committees and these other very good ideas are very successful.

They keep people out of jails and they keep people out of the justice system, which we know tend to be revolving doors. Once someone is involved with the judicial system, they tend to come back over and over again. For those people who are involved in viol ent crimes, yes, there needs to be appropriate and suitable punishment, but for those people especially who are first offenders, we need to keep them out of the court system and out of our jails so that we do not have to spend $6 million building a new courtroom.

We just wish that this government would match that kind of commitment with a commitment to funding facilities in the community that would provide prevention, for example by funding or reopening the North Y, by the friendship centre or any other organization that could run it, or funding community centres like Sinclair Park Community Centre in Burrows constituency, which are applying for funding to build a new community centre to replace their centre that was built in 19 4 7. I just heard yesterday that they were turned down in their application for funding. They badly need a new centre.

They provide many excell ent programs, especially by way of sports, both hockey and baseball. Now they have expanded into basketball and a number of other sports, which are also a preventative kind of programming. I am looking forward to attending an official opening there for a Kids at Risk program that will also keep kids involved in a positive and healthy alternative to the streets.

Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude with some remarks having to do with the amendment to the Speech from the Throne, where the Leader of the official opposition amends the motion with the following words: "But this House regrets that this government has failed to meet the goals of Manitobans by failing to uphold basic democratic principles as key government officials were involved in a vote rigging plot, which as the Monnin Inquiry states, 'constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the citizen's right to vote.

To reduce the voting rights of individuals is a viola tion of our democratic system."' It is very sad that we have to comment on this, but this is the first opportunity that we have had to hold the government accountable and to comment on the Monnin inquiry. I would just like to put on the record some of the things that Judge Monnin said in his report. For example, he said, and I quote: "In all my years on the Bench I never encountered as many liars in one proceeding as I did during this inquiry." * (1 520) Madam Speaker: Order, please. That very issue came up in Question Period earlier today,

334 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 and, regrettably, I did not have the same script that I had raised, offered as advice earlier on during the week, and that was that Erskine May is very explicit in saying that a member is not allowed to use unparliamentary words by the device of putting them in somebody else's mouth. I understand there are many Manitoba precedents on record where individuals trying to use that would be, indeed, cited for unparliamentary language and they would be called out of order.

So I would like to remind the honourable member for Burrows and to clarify the record that, indeed, it has been ruled on several occasions and past precedent has been established that just citing the words from another source do not make them unparliamentary-[inter jection] Pardon me, do make them parliamentary, right. Thank you. [interjection] No, I said citing someone else's words do not make them parliamentary. They are still conside red to be unparliamentary. Point of Order Mr.

Martindale: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to ask you to make a ruling on the point of order that I am raising now, because I would like to see in print Erskine May and all of the authorities that you are quoting from. Unfortunately, I am just going from memory of what you said, but I do not believe that I am using this as a device to get unparliamentary language on the record. I am quoting from Judge Monnin and the Monnin inquiry, and I had not even commented on what the judge said. I was merely quoting the judge.

So I would like to raise this as a point of order, and I would like to hear all of the authorities because I believe that I am not using it as a device. I am only using it to quote the actual words of Judge Monnin in his report. Hon. James McCrae (Acting Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, partly to give advice on this point of order but partly to seek a little bit of clarification.

The reference in the report I do not believe in any way suggests that any member certainly on this side of the Legislature is referenced in that, and I know that unparliamentary language is not to be used in reference to any member of the Legislature. My point of clarification is to find out if it is the position of the Chair that language like that can or cannot be used, whether it is through a device or otherwise, to describe someone outside this Chamber, because I certainly subscribe to what you say, that you are not to use that sort of language in reference to any member of this House.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Burrows, I indeed will take the point of order, review the Hansard transcript and report back to the House. * * * Mr. Martindale: I would like to continue by quoting from the Monnin inquiry report. Mr. Monnin said, and I quote: "It is disheartening indeed to realize that an oath to tell the truth means so little to some people ." Judge Monnin said: "A vote-rigging plot constitutes-" Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Burrows is providing comment on the throne speech, and I would appreciate the co-operation of all honourable members in affording the honourable member for Burrows that opportunity without interruption. Mr. Martindale: It seems to me that the Conservative members of this Chamber do not want to hear these quotes, because they do not want them on the record because they are embarrassed by what Judge Monnin said about their party, their colle agues, their friends, their bag men, and the people who provide advice to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and advice to their cabinet, many of them personal friends who have been judged wanting in terms of ethics, morality and standards by Judge Monnin. That is what they do not want on the record, because they are embarrassed. And I continue to quote: "A vote-rigging plot constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the citizen's right to vote. To reduce the

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 335 voting rights of individuals is a viola tion of our democratic system." Page 13 . And another quote: The basic premise of the vote-rigging plot was "that aboriginal people in these ridings had historically voted for the NDP, but 'the aboriginal vote' would be split if there were aboriginal candidates running.

The attempt here at vote splitting . . was in my opm10n clearly unethical and morally reprehensible." And another quote: "Political mores have reached a dangerous low when one party member can actively support his party, but sees nothing objectionable in helping to finance and organize the candidate of a second party in order to harm a third party." And I quote again: "I cannot ignore the fact that throughout this episode, especially during the investigation at the hearings, some of these witnesses exhibited a degree of arrogance or an 'I know better' attitude." We are extremely disappointed that this government's friends would act in this way in order to try and fix the outcome of an election.

You know, if you rig an election, nothing matters after election day because you are tampering with one of the fundamentals of democracy, and that is fair elections. This province and this country have sent people to countries like Chile, South Af rica and the former Yugoslavia to supervise elections. One of them is a friend of mine, Myroslaw Tracz, who just recently came back from the former Yugoslavia. An Honourable Member: Myroslaw is a Liberal. Mr. Martindale: Yes, my Liberal friend, Mr. Tracz. It is very disappointing that this government would be involved at all in something like this.

When the Premier said he did not know, the people of Manitoba do not believe him. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I would just like to acknowledge our former Lieutenant Governor, and also welcome our new Lieutenant Governor, our new Sergeant-at-Arms and our new pages. I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge our former MLA for St. Boniface, Neil Gaudry, and for the work that he did in his community.

I take this opportunity also to say how glad I am that I had the opportunity of serving with some of our members who will not be seeking re-election. I speak specifically of the MLA for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), the MLA for Arthur Virden (Mr. Downey), the MLA for Springfield (Mr. Findlay), the MLA for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), and the MLA for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski). I very much enjoyed his speech yesterday. I thought he put some very significant comments on record and things that all of us should be taking to heart and trying to follow.

Madam Speaker, usually when I speak on the throne speech, I speak to the throne speech, but this time I am going to depart a wee bit from tradition, because I want to acknowledge some of the people in the riding of St. Vital who have contributed so much to the betterment of that community. For me it has been a privilege to serve as the MLA for St. Vital, and the reason I say that is simply because of the people of St. Vital.

I want to just put some names on the record officially, because what they have given to the community, their spirit of volunteerism, their spirit of co-operation, their will ingness to work long and hard hours for no pay simply for the betterment of the community, I think, has been outstanding. At the beginning of this year in January, I put out a call, I guess I could say, for nominations for an award that I started a number of years ago called the St. Vital Heart of the Community A ward, and I was absolutely overwhelmed with the nominations that came in.

Over 10 0 nominations came in for people who had volunteered, residents of St. Vital. I had asked six other people to be judges, and they were: Carole Anderson, who is a Guide leader; Donna Bulow, principal of Glenlawn Collegiate; Ivy Fyf e, long-time resident of St. Vital and a long-time volunteer at Glenwood Community Centre; Brian Teixeira, the president of Old St. Vital BIZ; Bruce Waldie, principal of Frontenac School; and

33 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 Trudy Turner, the executive director of the Terry Fox Run. * (1 530 ) So, when I had asked these six people to be judges, I had said that I did not think that the job would be too onerous, so we were very, as I say, pleasantly surprised with 10 0 nominations that came in. So the judges actually had a very difficult time, because the quality of the nominations was simply overwhelming. The decision of the judges was to give the St. Vital Heart of the Community Award to 25 of the nominees and an honourable mention to the others.

Madam Speaker, I would like to put these names on record so that the families of these people, the neighbours and the friends, can see what these people did and just realize that these are very special people for St. Vital. Now, those who received the St. Vital Heart of the Community Award, and in alphabetical order their names are: Doris Ames, chairman of the Revitalization Committee; John Baker-and I am just mentioning one component of their volunteer activity .

Actually, I do not think I have time to sort of go into too much detail, so I will name the names : Doris Ames, John Baker, Tracey Belliveau, Cara Borkowski, Gary Coleman, Christie Crow, Lynn Doyle, Margaret Drielick, Patricia Dubeau, Peter Elwick, Jeff Fawley, Jim Fuller, Irene Hindmarsh, Josephine Hogg, Lorraine Iverach, Joe Laxdal, Fran Lemieux, Greg McClel land, Margorie McGavin, Wally Olensky, Ail een Robinson, Lori Semchyshyn, Dorothy Weldon and Victor Majer School, and then a group winner from Regents Park United Church: Hazel English, Elsie Orr and Hilda Shore.

Now, these volunteers did everything from Meals on Wheels to volunteering in schools, to community clubs, seniors events, to Old St. Vital BIZ, to doing things like initiating a Citizens on Patrol group. As I say, the volunteerism just covered everything from scouting, to guiding, to being a good neighbour. Now, those were the 25 award winners. would also like to put on the record those who received the honourable mention for the St.

Vital Heart of the Community Award, and in alphabetical order they are: Judi Adams, Maxine Armstrong, Arpi Babaian, Gordon Bell, Len Berngards, Carol Bil lett, Georgie Booth, Dianne Boulay, Jason Braun, Colleen Champagne, Cathie Chapman, Bi ll Coe, Yvette Couture, George Cotter, Jolene Daley, Vicky Daubaras, Herb Day, Debbie Dubeau, Pat Duncan, Jean Dunmire, Elm Park Peninsular Flood Team, Linda Elmhurst, Julie Ewanchuk, Betty Fortin, Muriel and Ed Gale, Norma Glenham, and the whole Glenwood Community Centre Board of Directors, Gordon Hancock, Ed Higham, Bruce and Patricia Hobson, the Youville Centre Adolescent Advisory Committee, Georgiana Hodges, Olga Janzen, Johanna Keeler, Janet Klem, Fred and Rosemarie K vern.

Joan MacDonald, Pat Main, Annette Marion, Linda Marsch, Betty Morrison, Brian Nazarko, Michele O'Dowd, Jeff Palamar, Pearl Ratte, Joe and Mardell Rioux, Joan Robinson, Kay Rokala, Angus Shortt, Allan Simpson, Robert Sproule, Brian Teixeira, Greg Thomas, Doreen Trumbley, Rob Truthwaite, Buzz Tyson and Patrick Wield. Madam Speaker, I would also like to acknowledge a group of people who worked very hard for the betterment of St. Vital in more of the physical sense. Now, the member who spoke just ahead of me said that he did not think this government had any plans for revitalization.

Let me tell you that there has been a very active residents group in old St. Vital and actually in the Norwood area, but I will speak to the Glenwood Residents Committee, the revitalization committee. This is a shared provincial-, city-funded group. The revitali zation that has gone on in St. Vital because of these committee members who have devoted hundreds of hours, hundreds of volunteer hours, to the betterment of St. Vital is absolutely incredible. The members of this committee, I would also like to put their names on record. The chairman is Doris Ames.

Other members are Carol Anderson, Bill Bell, Bob Bruce, Julie Ewanchuk, Jeff Fawley, Jim Fuller, Sig Laser, Shawn Love, Joan MacDonald, Bev Munn, Randy Ptashniak, Don Wookey. I hope I have not missed any names. I do not have my full list here.

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 337 This group has been working hard for five years. It is not easy to try to prioritize what needs to be done in a community, but this group has bounced the concerns of residents and the concerns of the business community. The two of them have worked hand in hand on a huge variety of projects in St. Vital. Just simply driving down the main thoroughfare of St. Vital, St. Mary's Road, you can see some of the differences that this group has made. Now, about four years ago, like many people, it does not matter really what part of the province you can talk about, St.

Vitallers also had a concern about safety. So I held a public meeting and put together a panel that was made up of representatives from seniors and Citizens for Crime Awareness and parent associations and from the Old St. Vital BIZ and from the community police and from young people. Again I want to put some names on the record, because these people each delivered approximately a I 0-minute talk on what they thought were the main concerns from their particular perspective. Representing the Seniors was Pat Main, who at that time was the president of the St. Vital Seniors.

Her back-up in case she was ill that particular night was Georgie Booth. One of the other panel members represented the Citizens for Crime Awareness. I think most of us here in the Chamber are aware of the Citizens for Crime Awareness. Speaking for that group was Beverley Munn and her back-up was AI Perron. I also asked parent councils to present, and the individual, the parent who spoke on the panel that evening was Joan MacDonald, who at that time was president of the Glenwood Parent Councils. She had two back-ups, Trudy Turner and Lynne Doyle. Old St.

Vital BIZ, which had been created a number of years ago-our business community had begun to die in the late '70s and early '80s as growth developed in the south part of our area and a lot of the businesses left old St. Vital and went south. But I am happy to say that our business community has revitalized itself and has formed itself into an official group. They too took

part in the safety initiative, because it is to their advantage also to have a saf e community. So both the president and other members of the BIZ participated in the safety panel. The individual who actually was a panelist that night was Carol Teixeira and her back up was Brian Teixeir a and Margaret and Art Johnstone. Now, from the community police, because you cannot have any discussion on community safety without having your community police involveme nt, that evening Constable Cindy Johnson was the panelist.

Because so many fingers are often pointed at our young people, I felt it was very important to ask a couple of young people to be on the panel, so I went to the main high school in my area, Glenlawn Collegiate, and asked for suggestions from the principal as to who would be good representatives to speak on behalf of young people. The two youth were Shannon McNeill and Tonya Shymkiw. Now from that evening that was held-and I wish I could remember the date. I do not have the date down on my list here in front of me, but it was about four years ago and we held that evening at St. George School.

There were roughly 350 people out that night. After the panel spoke, then it was an evening that was open for discussion and people from the audience could put forward their own thoughts, their own concerns. From that evening, there were roughly 12 issues of safety that were identified. Well, there was no way that I felt that I could deal with 12 issues, and I thought that maybe one, maybe two, maybe three issues we could handle in St. Vital, but definitely I needed help.

Twelve issues were just too much, and we needed to prioritize those issues and narrow it down. * (1 540) So what I did was, once again, I went back to the community, called in every single community organization-churches, community groups, scouts, guides, the community clubs, the schools, the parent councils, even the air cadet squadron for St. Vital-St. Boniface. Every community group that I could think of, I phoned a representative from that group. I was hoping that I would maybe get 12 people to come and work with me.

Madam Speaker, do you know that every single person said yes and responded to say, yes, they were prepared to work with me

338 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 to help do something about some of the safety concerns that we had in St. Vital. So that evolved into a couple more meetings. We broke out into groups. I had facil itators for each group. After about 12 hours of meetings, we were able to identify three areas of concern, and we were able to prioritize. The three areas of concern that St. Vitalers had were break-ins, youth unrest, and parents who need support.

Over the next year, we worked on developing solutions for those three areas and then, once more, we went back to the community, held another public meeting to let the community know about these three areas and some of the possible solutions that these 70 community groups had come up with. Again, I would just like to put some names on the record, because none of these things I could have done on my own. They all had to be done with the co operation of St. Vitalers.

The people who spoke that evening were Shannon McNeill and Tonya Shymkiw who spoke on solutions for some of the problems that they saw concerning young people. The individual who spoke on break-ins was Julie Ewanchuk, and the resident who spoke on parents who need support was Gerry Corrigal. We also had some added assi stance from Joan MacDonald. Now from that evening, things just kept moving on, just kept evolving.

Over the next number of months, again, with the help of volunteers from the community-! do not have all of the names in front of me, but many of the names that I have already put on the record were people who, again, put time and effort and energy into helping develop what was known as a Resource Manual for Keeping our Community Safe, and that turned out to be our slogan: Keeping our Community Safe. Another year of meetings went on and another public forum was held at the end of October in 19 98. Again, it started out we were hopeful that there might be six or seven groups participating.

In the end, there were over 70 community groups that participated in this public forum. Again, I would like to put the groups who participated, put their names on the record, because I think it shows the huge community spirit that we have in St. Vital, the volunteerism, the fact that people are willing to work and work hard. They do not just sit there and complain and expect somebody else to do something. They came forward and gave of their time and energy. Now the groups were Citizens for Crime Awareness: Marge Neville, Linda Ferguson and Dan Vandal were some of the participants.

Realty Watch was another participant for that group, Protelec Alarms, Fog Security Systems, The Window Man. We had invited these groups because one of our issues was break-ins, and we wanted to tell the public some of the things that they could do to make their homes safer. So if some of these names sound as if they are businesses, yes, they are businesses, but they were prepared to give up all day on a Saturday and come out and show the residents how they could make their homes safer. The Family Centre Service also participated.

We have a couple of our schools, Glenwood School and Lavallee School; both had programs called FAST, Families and Students Together. They participated in the public forum. Restorative Justice participated. This was Bev Ward who manned that particular booth. Brian Johnston from Street Peace set up an exhibit. The Community Police, again, were there, and that was Constable Gerry Epp. The fire department was there, Marc Proulx. The Y ouville Nurse Resource Centre, and this is a nurse resource management centre that has done absolute wonders in our community of St. Vital.

They have many programs, and if I do not run out of time, I will speak to some of the programs. Their exhibits that day were : How to Talk to Kids So They Will Listen, Mommy and Me, Parent Building, Baby and Me, Young Expectations, It's Your Choice and Nobody's Perfect. Margie Warner, Jo-Anne Vincent and Leanne Cadieux were some of the people who were out that day. Age and Opportunity also presented. St. Vital Seniors was there; Pat Main, Diane Frost of St. Vital Seniors. Barbara Whipps from Age and Opportunity presented an exhibit on older victims' services. Manitoba Society for Seniors was there, Pearl Ratte.

April 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 339 The Miriam Centre. This is a centre that has just relocated to Bel iveau Road, and Sister Gilberte Carriere and they offered information for single parents. Youth Justice Committee, Brian Woodward was there. The member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) a couple of days ago spoke on many things that the Youth Justice Committee does. The Justice department was there represented by Wyman Sangster. Children and Youth Secretariat. Scouts Canada was there. Girl Guides were there, Carol Anderson manning that particular booth. The Air Cadet squadron for St. Vital-St.

Boniface, 17 6 Boeing Squadron, was there, Lieutenant Templeman. Old St. Vital BIZ, which has been a marvellous group working to pull the community together, also had an exhibit. St. Vital Historical Society was there, and that booth was manned by John Baker and Doris Ames. Again, this is a new group, began in about 19 90, and they have pulled together some marvellous, marvellous displays talking about St. Vital. They were there that day even though the issue was keeping our community safe. It was just another outlet for young people who do not know what to do.

Save Our Seine, another volunteer group, put on a presentation. That was J.P. Brunet. The South Winnipeg Family Y was there. South Winnipeg Family Centre. St. Vital Library. Winnipeg Canoe Club. Teen Stop Jeunesse. Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club. MPI Roadwise. Teen Touch was there, Gord Alvare. The Glenwood Revitalization Committee, which I have already talked about, was there. The Morrow Avenue Salvation Army. The Morrow Street Day Care was there. The Neighborhood Parenting Support Project. Pride St. Vital. Osborne House. Alpha House. The Marlene Street Tenants Association.

This is a group that had just been formed. Madam Speaker, I see that I have virtually run out of time, but again I just want to acknowledge the fact that volunteerism in St. Vital is alive and well and, as I say, I have had the privilege of working with schools, community clubs, scouts, guides, the churches, libraries, many of the groups, and together we have networked, we have pulled together the community. As I say, thanks to the volunteerism of some of the people that I have mentioned today, we have a better community in St. Vital. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased today to make some comments about the government's last throne speech, I might add; but, before I do, I would like to wish all of the retiring members of this Chamber well in their future endeavours. I think at this point, we do not know who all of them will be because for various reasons one or two may have chosen not to make their announcements at this time, but will at a later date, others may succumb to nomination conflicts, and others may lose at the poll. I would like to say, Madam Speaker, that nothing is sure in election campaigns.

You know, no one is here forever, with a couple of exceptions, but the truth of the matter is that we saw it. Although it is fairly rare, it only happens every 10 years or so, but federally we saw it in '93 with the Conservative Party being reduced to two seats. We saw it Saskatchewan in 19 82, with the NDP being reduced to six seats. We saw, in 19 88, the Liberals come up from nowhere.

So I think we can truthfully say that you never really know for sure. *( 15 50) You know, I sent a cartoon across the way earli er-on e, I am told, that I had sent in previous electio ns-but the fact of the matter is that you never really know when you go into an election. Even if you have polling information or reason to believe that you might be leading at the beginning, mistakes can be made, you can misinterpret the results, and things can tum very adverse. So it is conceivable that, with the right strategy, this government could be returned.

It is also very conceivable, and in fact probable that the opposition, our party, will be the government after the next election. Perhaps, with a great number of seats. Perhaps, even more than the 35 we had in 19 81. Having said that, it is possible the Liberal Party may rise up from where it is now and repeat what it did in 19 88. So, at this point, it is pure speculation. I would like to also welcome the new Lieutenant Governor, Peter Liba. I know Peter

340 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15 , 19 99 Liba from many years ago, in fact, 26 years ago, when he was the assistant to the Liberal Leader of the day, Izzy Asper, in Wolseley in the tie vote process of 19 73. Peter and I had some dealings at that point, some 26 years ago. So I know he will do a good job as Lieutenant Governor, and I wish him well in that post. Now, Madam Speaker, this throne speech, I do not really see as a very vision ary type of document. I think it is very consistent with the type of throne speeches that this government has delivered for the last 11 years.

In fact, I would say, in particular, that this one really, to me, demonstrates a government that is old and tired and has probably run out of steam. I think, even as late as last year, there were people arguing that the government was still somewhat vigorous and still had potential, but certainly in the last six months since the Monnin inquiry into the vote splitting and rigging scandal, this government has really taken a beating. In fact, it is quite possible that it is beyond repair, that this government is destined for the history books at this point.

You know, Madam Speaker, there comes a time in the life of any government where no matter what is done, it is impossible to change. I recall the second term of the Rene Levesque government in Quebec where it was way behind for the first four years of its mandate. The very last part of the fifth year-and I am glad someone is listening to me right now-to the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), in the very last couple of months of its final term, it went and called an election, and it actually recovered and won. But that is very, very, very seldom that that happens.

Once the public mood sets in, once the bloom is off the rose, once the trust is broken [interjection] As the member for Radisson says, once the rose is dead, it just becomes sort of a matter of passing time. At this point I think the Conservatives are desperately looking for a way to somehow try to recover from their current problems. There is sort of, I think, a slight unease over there that change is in the air. Certainly for the last year people are telling me that it has been time for a change. I am very specific about that.

They say it is time for a change in the government, not a time for a change in the member. I do ask them that question, and they say, no, no. No question about it. It is time to get rid of the Filmon government and get back to sane and sensible government in this province. So on that basis I would say that we are more than willing to see the Conservatives call the election and get on the road. Now, what this government is doing in the last little while clearly indicates that they are on a track of no return for an election. You see advertising.

You see a millio n-dollar advertising campaign touting the good works of the government on health care. The very same sort of program that they did last time they went to the polls. It is a formula with these people. It is basically an advertiser's dream, I think, this Tory account. They are given bas ically unlimited money to spend, and they hire the best and the brightest imports from the United States Republican Party, and we know they are around. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair We know Greg Lyle has crossed the border and moved into Manitoba for a while.

So we know that the professional managers of the good old Republican Party and their friends are back here to try to save what is left of this government. So it has worked for them before. The advertising campaign, the pre-election advertising campaign, the cynical strategy of re announcing things that they cancelled before. You recall last time they announced a capital works project to build hospital facili ties, nursing home facilities, only to tum around immediately following the election and cancel the program. They have been that blatant about it, and they have been lucky. They have been lucky.

They promised to save the Jets, knowing the Jets could not be saved, and they won. That was a cheap issue for them. They won partly on that. So they have been riding a wave. Well, the Premier has a canoe. The Premier has his canoe that he gets out of storage every election and paddles up and down a creek a couple of times. I think that this now has come to an end. This is the first real election campaign that these people have had to fight in the last few elections. They have had an easy time of it before, Mr. Deputy

April IS, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 34 1 Speaker, and this time I think they are starting to find out that it is a much more serious proposition than what they dealt with in the past. You know, as evidence of that, one can see that what they have done this time is, rather than just announcing the projects, the infrastructure projects, this time they are actually digging holes in the ground, because they know that people are not believing them. People are cynical about their motives and about them. So this time they actually believe they do have to do more than just announce the projects.

They have to dig the holes and actually build the project. As a matter of fact, after the election is over, we may find that we have a fairly decent program to deal with at the time of nursing home construction and other projects. Now, coming out of that, of course, what we are going to have is a horrendous debt that we are going to have to deal with, but that is something that we will have to deal with at the time. The point is that this particular throne speech really is no real break from the past.

It just simply reinforces their old formula that has worked before, and there is an old saying that if it works once-you know, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If it works once, try it again. But this time, I really believe-and I think they are starting to believe-that it could be over for them this time. The throne speech itself, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), my friend-and I do not know that he will be around after the next election, but he has quite a resilience in this House, I must admit. He has b

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	c47b500348794bd440af4e07796d5a596023aadd

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