VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOOSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 ?.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1979 NO. 42

!Jacember 3, 1979 -::1e House met at 3:00 P.:1. :·!r. Speaker in the Chair. :tR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tape 1538 cc - ::. Crder, please! I have a letter here from the Consul General of the United States of America. He has asked me to express to tl1e members of the House his thanks for the honour extended to him when he was permitted to sit in the gallery last l'londay at the ~ouse of Assembly in the Province of ~ewfoundland when ~bassador and Mrs. Curtis visited ~~e House. He says he enjoyed the Question Period and found the first-hand exposure to the parliamentary system in operation a very '.lSeful experience.

"Please extend my thanks to ti1e ~.embers of ~'le House and inform them that if I may be of assistance in any •.tay, they should not. hesitate to communicate ·•ir..'l me." Signed: Thomas F. Wilson, Consul General. Sm!E HON. !1E~!BERS: Hear, hear~ :·!R. SPEAKER: I am sure all honw members ...,·auld lik.e to welcome ~o ~'le gallerJ today the mel!1ber-e:!.ect for Burgee - Bay d'~spoir, 2·tr. Hal .IDC.re'NS . SOtiE; nON. ME:•lBERS: Hear, hear! Order, please! ORAL Qt..'EST1lXIS :-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~'le member for the Strait of Eelle Isle. :-lR. RQE.;:;RTS: :-lr.

Speaker, in the absence cf rrr:f colleague, -.:!1e L;lader of the Jpposition, may I ask a question of t he :'linister of Cor..s,~mcr Affairs and Environment? I regret that I C.id not have ~'1e opportunity to give the han. minJ.ster notice, but I ~'l inl: it is something on •,;hie'\ si1e 'llould ':Je ·•ell informed. Perhaps sile coulC. help us. The question az:ises out o:f r:ports ·.wn~cn ·,;are carr:..ed, I believe, on the C.B.C. radio t~1is morning..

They mat :1ave .'Jee!l on ot.:..:.er stations as well,bl.!t \tfe ·.,·ill give C~3~Ca t..:1e creC.it for tl1i:S o~e a ~~J i:.h !:' ~ S?ec t to ~ ~"le E:RCO plant at I..clng l:-!arbour, I as !c the :ll u. ist~!'" ·.;:1e-c~e~ sh~ :::auld tell the ~ouse, 1lr. 5pea..1..:er, · .. ;::ether L.'le!:'e :-.ave been a:".V 3873

~ce~~e ~ 3, 197~ LC - ~ govca ~ne.:1 t 1 !.:1 respe~ c£ ·.whl~~ s?le '··•ould S?eak as the :ru.n.1st.er :-espor.sl1:l e, and :.."le ope :-at:ors of :..'l.e ?lane at: tong !:arbour , t.."le ERCO company, Wl. t.."l :-especc t;O - ! s·.(?po se '"'= • .. oul.:: call :..'l.em c.."'e o:.olc!!'"a.Ole o r t.."le t:ole racecl levels of ~~ssi~ns in respec~ of !l4or~ces from t.."'ac ?l~"lt:? ~~. S?EAKZR: (Si ~) 'the hon . t.."'e :·tiniscer of consume r i.L::.u rs and ~nvLrcnmen-::. :IPS. :CE\\'HOOK: Yes, !1r.

S9eak er, '"e have :tad,. ! t:r.lnk, o;;'A'O or t:"lree ~~eet:i.;1gs wi r.:1 !::ReO tnis year zo far anci ! think t..~ere is anot..'ler one coming up l:e fore !:.."le end of the yea r. :·/e :1ave been doing ::tonit;Oring out: t:1e re and t:te fl•:o":ici.: conc:!itior.s out t..~ere are just about normal, t.."lat: i s, :.."le ·.•at:er is ~s;: to acce pt.able leve ls or cirinl o. nc; '"'at:e r t::la;; nas :,'!en, you i< ne'ft·, ~l.:or ica~ . wr.ic.'\ :nany tC'<JOS no'A' nave . ->:..ler emissions are U."\der concrol anc ·..,e are q:u t:e pleased act:ually '"':!. :..'l t.."le cor.di tions ~,d t.."le :.:::prove::~en-::s c."' .at ::ave ::,een made at :.One; "ar.x,=. :·!r.

S!,)eal:er, a su;;:pleC~ent.ary . ;. 5U?!,>lern.en-::arJ, t:ne ~on . t."'e ;::ect:;er =~r :..'l.e Sera:.;: of Belle I sle. miniscer. The news is gocd news and t:hat is ·.,elcome . I '"onder i:: she coul.c per~aps ~e a 11.-::cle ncre ? recis e and tell us exacc l y what arranc;emencs have been ~ade~ 3ec~use as !ar as I am awa r e , the news st:ory was t:he firse ?ublic not:~fication t hat :~e mini ster and he r o!ficiats ~ad ent~red :r.to •.•hat a."":".oun::ed to a crea::y . .,it:h t:ne plant: at :..Ong :<ar!::our .

Jece2ber J, 1979 Ta;,>e :Ia. 1539 so - l : :R. E. ROBERTS: Could s:1e pe:::haps cell '.ls •. ,hat ar:::angements nave been made, exactly -;·:llat are t~e tolerateo or tolerable, or if we wish 'Ne could use the terr.o.·, TL\;. the threashold 1~it values, in respect of fluoride el!'issions ~~1at i-.Lave been accept~d ".:Jy -che ~overnment in repect to tne plant at .m. SPE.'\..~R: (:lr.

Simms) The r~on •. 1inister of Co~~...JLJ.e~ )._£fair.;; : I..?.S •• :r. ~~E\ l"riOOX: I :::eally .:ar.noc c;i'J-" you that ex< ct f.:.;';..lre except that I ~:now ;.ve :"la.Ve stanc..larcls anc: that ::: .. :~.co has i...lecn re•.;,uirecl to :ueet t~e stan~ards 1 bllt I ::=eally cannot ;ive [Oll exactl~- -... ;ha.t that: figure .:..s right now·. • lP... 3. ~OJ::RTS: ;;u:::.;~le..':lentar;, .lr. St-eak.;r .. .!..R. L. :\.ODE.?.TS: to ~ons:.1lt wit:1 ::::..£: relev;;1nt official.:S an!.l get us t:.1e detaij_eC. infor:nation, I appreciate she •,;ocild not :Uve t:Ut a.t lla:>d.

I -N·onC:er if s;,,: co ella tell e~s by •;irtue of what aut.'lori ty she has entered into the.:=e arrangement.;:; t.v·ith EH.CO,plea.se? I G. ill not quite get ~~a I; ques-ci ..... r., _tR .. ~.~ .. ROaE~:rs: :r.ini.3tc::r co'..lld tell llS ~y ·virti.le · . .-hat a.J.thorit:t·,l..:s;isla..tive or otherwise, 3-ne has enter2d in-co t:.hese a.rran;er.tents ·.vi tn £P.CO?

T~1-a r:on .. :rinister of Cons....L'7ler ~:;£.:a.ir.;;; anC Znvirolli~ent. ~,"el2., ~l.e .J.Uthority, ~·lr. 5;;~3.ker 1 · .. 'oi..llC. j,Je .;ndcr our t::nvi~:Jrur.ental Act a..··Hi 2H.CO i.s rei,.j,u.ireC. to ;-.1ce t <J.re -c.;.'l.e stanC!ards b1cy 3.re trying to I:teet c.nd 1lik.e I j ·.1st $ai~ :.:.efore ,~~:r?:..y ~1a· .. ;e tlone a vr:.ry ;oo~ joL ..inu they arc ir~cr2asin<; !:~1~ir 3875

J~.:~.i..E!" 3, !.979 S:l - 2 .~-lS . .. . .. !.:::OOK : .:~ . S?!.A.:r'='R ~ (:t::-. £i.=Jl!;s) :or ::~e 3~.ra:.c -.J = a.e~ l e I..;la . . ::t. _ . "o.:~::aTS , .1:-. Spea~er , in S'-lmn:3-t:!.on, I •.:or.ce= a~; ::>n<; car!:o= ~etti~ :c=t:-t aJ;act:1.1 . .,:"l<oc ;las .;one on anc. '"hac .:.s ;o:.ng on ano wl:.et :xac-.::ly <:.::e <;ove:-:1::1enc :~as a.;reed :o :1ccc>-c " ..,,. :"::lviro:uiltZ.nt . _;IRS • " • : IE:f:OOO:<.: ;:ont:i:: :.ons sc ::.."'lac '""e :·:ill c;~c back co a :> ur~ sc.:tce of cnv:.::or.:.~e!'lc. ;1:: :.On<; .. =!:ou r and 3875

O<=cember 3, 1979 1 ape _;o. 1540 D\1 - 1 I would be verj, very glad to ~sclose t.-.e reports >~e r1ave on all t..lo.e different types of monitoring that we ara ~oing at Long harbour. hnd I can give you the figures; tnere ~s no problem at all on that. _•lR. 5FEAKER: (SH1J-!

S) c·-"'.. S •• ,EARY: 'Ihe i1on. me!l'.ber for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir. In view of tile coni:rover5ies and the com- pla.ints that a:zre surfacing- as a result of awarding of Canada IVorks ~rejects by t..-.e Government of Canada,~ould the hon. gentleman indi­ cate if his gcve=Il'.ent or any rrinisters in his government i1ad any ir..put. into a~.;arair..g of any of these Canada ;;orks projects in New­ foundland?

Jl.nd if so, to what extent did the Provincial Govern­ ment participate in the selection of these projects? ;.,R _ ::OPEA!o;ER: Ihe l1on _ t.ne Pre!'lier _ PRU\IhR J?ECi.J:ORD: i.~r . .52-=aJ.;.er, it i::; all r..eT,o;s to me. 'li.1are i3 2.

Canada N~rks ~roq~air~me · in operation, I know that as a mer.~L.Jer of the ho\.lse for my own districc a...r1d so on, and applications I have supf-orted when tney havco come 1!');' •,;ay. 3ut I am not awa=e of a..njtiling aut of the normal than has ileen the _?ractice in t..-.e l'ast, ongoing input tetween the uepartment of :1anpower and Ir,1!'r.igra ticn anci tne !Je<>«.rt"'ent of LaLour and :.-tanpo<ver, provincially v.nen tney star'C. a _b)rogranunc, anci the norrnal selection proceC.ures tnat are follcwed each year.

So I all' not a<iarEo of, I have not .ueen ge-cting in n~y office, com~la~n.ts a.uout tne se:lection ~rcceaure usee! and so that tlH~refore I era at a loss to rcs~ond to the non. mei'"'ber in a n,ore definitive and suiostantial way_ A SUJ.)i-Jl.err.entary, ~·1~. S,t?ea.ker. L~R.

SP£Al\ER: A 5'.1P1'le!".er, tar;, ti-:e hon. rnerober for i.aPoile. ::,!R. s. ~'-lEARY : I will t~y co be a little n.o=e s~ecific -_.;ith t.;.1e ~lCn. gen"Cler.-.an and ask t~e hen. gentlerN~.Il if ~1.e - ~ell, he .5ays he .las not haC.:. any reports, t.ut there ar~ repcrts reaching our .Jesks that ·c . .nere .as been ~olitical interference ac t..1e frcvincJ..al level, 'Caat ::i.aister6 ar.ci ;:riv2.;;;.e rr.er..Lers and di~tl.i._t PC associations are cal2.ing t:1e si::.ots on t~1e.5e C:anaC.a 'i.orKs .":,Jro~ects. ;.,.rJ.c. ~ would li~e 3877

Jecember 3, 1979 Tape o. 1540 DW - 2 ~!R. S. t-!EARY: to ask t.'le hon . <?entleman 1: he · .. ill und ertake to investigate t.'"lese complainr.s of political ;::at=onage and pork bar::elling involvi.:1g Canada Norks projects in ~lewfcuncl and because just !'or tha information of ths hen. gen "t:leman, t.~e situation is not t~e same as before because t."ere are no cozr.mi ttees new and ! ll.!lcerseanc the staff of o:.he Job creation Branch o:: Canada :-laz,pcwer are cotr.r:-letely emoralized because ef all t.he po~i t:!.cal interference.

So would the hon. gentleman i~iorm -h~ ::ouse if h.e w~l- undeol."T.ake eo i :westigage this whole matter to see if tilere !las been unC:ue political pressure anC: intar::e~ence !'rom provi:lcial rr.inisters and supporters of t.'"le Tory Party? !·:R . S.?!:iU<ER : '!'he !"!on. t.!-Je • relnier. ?W!I.ER PECx='ORD: ~.I . Spea.<er, I !:hall iiTll".aci.ately anc personally invest::..gate. I Y~'"lO"-' that the hon . member for Earb-ou.: Grace. the non . :1i:-tist 3r oi !'ublic licrks ar.d services (Mr.

Young) , ·;;oulc or.ly do .,hat ~1 as !.n t_'"le best .:..n::erest of hi s constit~ents. ! knew -'la t ::_'1e non. member for Gander, t~e ~on. ~inis~e~ of Consume r Affairs anc Envoironl:lent (!1rs Ne•;;ho ok ), likewise .

And all tiu:ouc;h t..'"lo:; fro,.,t anc backbenches !'>ere ! am sare tha.t ·,;e have all supported a;:!;:licat.ions · to tile ~ederal depar~ent. ! would not like to second guess the hon. ~~e r s .arounc me !:!ecacse t.'"ley a re all honourable people a..-,c: woulc only co what "'<IS honourable . t·/he·t:!'!er or :tot: t!'!ere are a :tUlllber of !)eople out .:....-. :::.e various dis'tricts ·.tho classify t;,emselves as P .C. •s or Li!:>E-rals o::- 3878

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1541 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: NDP's or whatever, who are also putting pressure on, I do not know. But I will personally investigate to ensure that these things are done properly insofar as I have any control over their awarding a job to one community over another community. Sure, no problem there. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the han. member f~r LaPoile, followed by the hon. member for Grand Bank, followed by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon.

Premier also investig~te a statement that is being made in wast cases that previously were awarded Canada Works projects that they could not qualify for a Canada Works project because of financial mismanagement, I consider that to be an insult to committees and the people who have these projects in various district, in various ridings. Would the hon. gentleman check this out to see if it is correct? The statement has been made, I know. I have seen it and I ha•re heard it.

But I think that is an insult to Newfoundlanders 1 and it paints a bad picture of Newfoundlanders in Mainland Canada when we hear so many cases of where projects are rejected on the grounds that there was financial mismanagement in previous projects. Would the hon. gentleman undertake to check this out too with his counterpart up in Ottawa? ';IR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, no problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Sank, followed by the hon. member for Port au Pert. MR.

THOMS: In the absence of the Minister of Justice, I would like to ask the President of the Council a questicn. In this sitting of the House we will be voting on an ac-:: to change the name of the Newfoundland Constabulary to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, a piece of legislation, >f course,that we on this side of the House would be only too happy to endorse and support. 3879

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1541 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: In the last session of the House, ~~e Minister of Justice indicated that he would be considering the possibility of turning over ~~e policing of parking meters in the city of St. John's to the City Council of the City of St. John's. I was wondering if the President of the Council would indicate to this House when this menial task that is now given to our Royal Newfoundland Constabulary will be turned ovP-r to the City Council? J!!R. SPEAKER: MR. MARSH.'\LL: The han. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, ·I am glad to acknowledge what the han. member stated with respect to the designation and I think it is a great honour of the Newfoundland Constabulary and a deserved honour to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. I would point out that we have tried valiantly from time to time, day after day, week after week, month after month, to get this designation changed and finally we are able to get the change realized after a happening of another great event that happened in Ottawa in the Spring. But in answer to the han. member's question, I think the han.

Minister of Justice has already indicat~d that he is looking into this aspect. It is not considered to be - many people consider it not to be a function really of the police to be handing out parking tickets of the nature that the Constabulary has had to give out these parking tickets. It '-S being looked at, it is being looked at actively and I know we are not in a position at the presen~ time to say that it is going to come to pass immediately, but certainly it is a matter that the government is concerned about, and the government intends 3850

December 3, 1979 Tape 1542 PK - l Mr. Marshall: to act upon, you know, within the parameters of financial constraints and other considerations. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. }!R. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A supplementary, the han. member for Grand Sank. MR. THOMS: could the President of the council indicate to me whether or not the department has been in touch with City Hall, whether or not any discussions have actually taken place or whether it is still the same situation it was the last Session of the House 1-1hen I asked the question? MR. SPEAl(ER: The han. President of the Council,.' MR.

MARSHALL: I am not in a position, Mr. Speaker, to make that statement at the present time. But I do know that obviously discussions will have to take place with the Municipal Council, if any change or alteration is to take place. I know that if such conversations have not taken place they will within the foreseeable future when the staff of the Department of Justice and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) himself is able to turn, you know, his full attention to his attentions with respect to the matter. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. member for Grand Bank. MR.

THOMS: Could the President of the Council tell me whether or not there has been any representation from the City Council to the department in connection with this matter, because I understood chat after the announcement was made in the House by the Minister of Justice that City Council were going to get in touch with the department rather than wait for the department to get in touch with the City Council? Has there been any representations from them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I am not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of any such representation, but I would assume that, :_.--ou ;Jlol·i, within the normal arrangements being effected between, you know, with respect to the change that there would be such consulttation. I cannot answer the hon. gentleman's question specifically, but, you know, I can say I would expect that the Municipal Council having an interest in it would also 3881.

~e<:embe.r 3, 1979 Tape 1542 PK - 2 ~tr. :-!arshall: be in touch •..!ith the Department of .r:~stice. But in any even:: ,it will be par~ of t.'le overall proceedinqs of t:he Oeparcnene of Justice, that if the MuniciF-11 Council i."l efi<!et: does :~oe :.tlitl.ate the discussions t.'le Oepa=cnene of Jusuce cereal.."lly will when it is in a position so eo do. MR. S?EA.KER (SIM?1S) : HR. J. HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Port. ~. Spf:'.aker, a questio n for the hon . )!inister of ~i.'\es and E:nergy (~lr . Barry).

In view of ehe face thai: re<:ene studies, scl.ent:;.iics seudies , have shown that limestone can be used successfully in the treating of :~on-productive soLL wh:;.ch has been adversely a!fe<:ted ~ acid rain, has ::he miniseer :,een approached !::>y any l.nte.rested companies? or has he himself given considera ti.,n eo the larqe developments of limestone on the West Coast, which I understand t..'le Tal:>le Head Group , the P:.Oe Tree Group , and the Por e au Port group I t !u .nJ.. they are c:eologically known as, ilre the largest and most pure blcx:k of limestone in the Eastern Seaboard of Canada, and perhaps part of t.'1e United S~tes .

SO.'IE i!ON. !<!EMBERS : :-!R. S?E:rt.'<ER: MR. BARRY: The hon . :-!inister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker . there are ~ number of initiatives underway at the present tl.lfle. I 111ight say that the use of limestone ::o counteract the effec~s of acid rain i s :~ot the only reason tl"la t limeseone would be used or il'l fact 3882

:ecerr!::er 3,1979 AH-1 :-!R. BAF-RY: has been useC in the Province. Tuere is a considerable amount of t.'le material utilized in the f=mino; industry at the present time.

The~€ have been, and in fact there is ~ight now, a project co-ordinated by the Department of Agriculture in conjunction with the Depar~ent of Mines and Energy to utilize the tailings at Daniel's Harbour and t.'lere will be further announcements tr.ade on this in the near futtore. '!'he tailin~s . at Daniel's Harbour. basically is limestone, Some trace el~ments. :!P .• 3AHRY: ':'here are trace elements, heavy metals,that have been analysed but apparently th~t is of such a small, proportion that it can be lltilized safely in farming operations.

But there are also , as .t.'le member opposite knows 1 large reserves of limestone on the Port au Port J!eninsula ar,d there has been interest e::pressed from time to time by various groups and we are actively PL1rsuino the development of these deposits and I -hope again to have somet.'ling in the very near future that I can report to this House or to the Province in t.'lis regard. :1P .. HODDER: t1R.SPEAKER: (Sil!'l!ls) ~1R.HODDER: A supplementary, ~!r. Speaker.

The hen. member for Port au Port. :--ty question of course ,.,-as directed at t.'lat la!:gest, most pure bloc± of limestone '"hich is known as the Table- lie ad Group , b~t I would ask the minister, since I understand that world markets have i~proved dramatically with limestone in that our natural market is the Eastern Seaboard of t.'le United States. a2d tl1at we have an inter:st by LeHigh Cemant and later by Ontario Portland Cement. has orinex, who I believe were looking for a partner to develop that particular area, have t.'l~y taken any initiatives as of the last, say, six months? :-IR.

SPEAKER: '!:'he han. t!le Minister cf ~1ines and Energy~ :·!R. EAR.'<.Y: ~-s the hen. member has just statec , Srinex has begL actively solicitin~ rartners and I have ~othing further to say on that matter other t.>,an ···hat I have already said, that \·:e arg 3883

Jere:nbe:: 3,1979 Tape ~lo . 1543 AH-2 ~R.3AR..~: ac::.i.vely ?ursui:tq the pos sibJ. liey of seeing a."l early cevelopme.nt to the limestone potential of the i'o :::-t. au ?o rt~enin s ula as we are a n~ber of other min era l occurances around ~~e Pr~vince ~"ld we ~4Y be in a position to say sorne~inq further befo re too lone; on i t, but at the present time I can say r.othir.c; more than what ! have alre ady stated. ~.SPE~KER: ( Si~) A final supplementary, t..~e hen. n-.ember :or ?or~ au ?ort . !·I.R.HODDER : A supplementary tc the ~!inister of Consumer A!!aJ.rs ar.C: the E:-.vironment .

I would ask the rinis:er .. supp!e:nentary arisL"lg from tr.y :irst question, . .,het±e:: !-.er deparu.ent ~as been coin<;; any studies into the acid raln and the effect ~at it it havL'l g on the environment in ~ewfouncliand and whethe r her depar;:r.ent: hc1s come ·:p .,..1.th any conclusions as to t..~e use ct l~stone in the treatment of t..~e so1.l , t..:,e acidic so1.l :rom acid rain? 388·1

December 3, 1979 Tape 1544 =:c - 1 :•!R. S?EAKER: (Si!!UllS) The hon. the Ninister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MRS • NE".;'liQOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been doing monitoring of waters this year to determine ~~e increase of acidity in the water, and our officials just came b~ck from a conference in Halifax on this particulac subject of acid rain. In our programme of next year we are hoping to lllOnitor lakes and ponds and soils and ·,'egetaticin and ­ forests.

We are now co-ordinating a new programme with the federal and provincial Departments of Fisheries, of Forests and Agriculture and we will be including extra monies in our budget for ~~is monitoring for next year. Memorial University will be coing the analysis, and I am not quite sure whether they have a monitoring programme of their own or not, but if ~~ey do, well,then this will be incl~ded in our co-ordinating process.

Witn regard to applications of limestone, I think we would have to determine first ~~e condition of ~~e soils ~~rough the t:esting before we ••auld determine whether or not it is necessary to ~e applications of lime. ~!R. SPEAKER: ~. HISCOCX: The hon. ~~e me'llber for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I direct my question t:o the Minister of Transportation and Communications (~k. Brett) wiL~ regard to ~~e ferry on the Nort.~ern Straits at St. Barbe and Blanc Sdblcn. The question was asked earlier last week whether we would get an ext~nsion of that ferrJ from St.

Barbe to Blanc Sablan and ~'le r.-.inister said that he would !::>e contacting t:"1e federal ~!inister of Transportat-.i:>n, Mr. 'lazankowski. Could the minister report to tne House now L~ese findings, in particular '"itn r;c;ard to -'lr. ,Jim McGrath, :1inister of fisheries, .;r,o has announced that the fraez~r trawlers will now be operating on the ~orthern cod stocks? Surely, if they can operate on L~e ~orthern cod stocks amons L'le free ice, ~y t:~e time th~ .=\.rctic ice comes down, surely ·,;e can have tC!e ferry operat:ing at least :mtil ~~e end of Feoruary. Thank you. :-!R.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Corr~unica~ions. ~~o, :•lr. Speaker, :;: i1ave not ~lad a r-epl::· 3885

:·!R. <HSOX:K: :·:R. S?;:;..~R: (Sil!ll!IS) for Eagle River. ~l.'t. H:i:SCCCK: '!'ape 1S44 ::c - :! l'!r . Speaker, a suppleme:1~ary. ;;. supplemen~ry, ~'le i'":.on. t..~e ~mber Seeing that: t:he C.eaCline is C'Ut: off ac Cecewber llt..,, ! t.~ink it is about: time '"e get: a reply :.rom !lim, since chere :.s no Of :::Oat i:1 t."'at: area.

Also wi~:h ::.-e<:arc! r:o a lee~::: colt'.ir.g from The ::>a.Llv :•lews toeay advocating provir:cial s~:aeus cominq !rom ilabusu, : :hi~~ i: :.s ~ul: t:~ you ge1: on t.,e go. :·!!L :rENt'f : Hear, ~~ar: YeP, ~y, get: t~e lead out: T!'te ~on. the member f~r ':'orngat :·:Ount:ains . !o{r. Spea.lter, my question is direct:eci to the :oti.nis cer of Cons \!mer ,}.ffai.rs anc!

E:nv1.rorur.em: (!·:rs. :1e1thooi<) • I c.~nk on 'I'hursc!ay of las t: '"eek, -::.y colle agl:e from 5aie 'le rte - ''-~t:e Say (~!r. !ticeou~:) aske ci c..":e ::ri.:us~r a ques1::.0n CO!lCerning wnether A or :\01: t:he ·po-::ential contract: bel:'oilel!n oRIN£:\ and Commo..:•.,e al :.:'1 =:dison in Cr.icag o has anyt..":i:~g t:0 c!o .,1.th the d...-.inq of :....'e ?ublic :'lea:ings in Labrador tha~: s:.ar:.ed t:oc;iay :l{r . ..;i:t C • Rourke ·.-oroce to ~"le :ninist:er on Occo.ber l7::··L He sa..1.C ir. -=...; .:.s lel:t:e r :..'Hit :'le · 388'3

December 3, 1979, Tape 1545, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARBEN: would like to have an answer, or government approval,by the end of this year. Is the ~inister trying to m~et, ~~at deadline? What I am trying to say is, does he expect the board to report back with their finding before December 31? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MRS .NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, I am sorry, I do not know of any deadline with regard to responding to l-lr. 0' Rourke. we have answered him to the effect that there will be no approval given until after the public hearings are held. We do not know just how long this will take, how long these reports will be coming in. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: member for Torngat Mountains . MR. WARRE~: Hear,hear~ A supplementary. The han. the Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the Minister of Mines and Energy, also concerning BRINEX uranium mines.

In this impact study that BRINEX submitted to government on October 17, they did say that limestone from the Island will be used in the operation of the uranium mines of Kitt's - Michelin. Does the minister foresee enough limestone coming from the Island to support this proiect? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy . .!olR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, limestone is ·") f great in~erest today for some reason. There are a number of possible markets for limestone in this Province. Part of the market is the farming industry of Newfoundland where we have an acidic soil.

The Minister of Agriculture can tell more about this, but the soil is basically acidic so the farmers have to use lime. At the present time~ unfortunately, it is coming in in bulk shipments and we are actively examining the development of an internal supply

Decewbe~ 3, 1979, Tape 1545, Page 2 -- apb !1R. 3AAAY: o f lime wit..'Un the Province, a small indcst:...7 within :he Province co meet. the fanning :1eeds of :he Province first. and !oremos~. bu~ there wo~d be ic~ng on the cake in te= of additional ma.rkets that might become a\Clilable that would make the limestone industry a.ll thar. toore viab!e and we are actively pursuing whether it.s utiliz atic n in the Kitts Michelin project, or any ot..~er possible marker.. Even farming ::ta.rket:S in ot.'ter provinces might be a possible thing to aim at as a market for Newfoundland limestone.

So we are, the Department of Indusuial :Jevelopment • • .tith .)ti.nes and Energy and the Depart:nent of Agricult.ure,act.ively pursuing every potential ;narket for limestone that can be foreseen. r migh~ say chat therP. is no limestone industry t..'lat •,o~ill be depandent upon the ltitts - ~lichelin project going ahead. Any projec~ t..~t is being looked at is looked at in terms of meetim; the farming needs of th.e 3888

Jec~.ber 3, 1979 Tape ~~o. 1546 SD - l . :R. L. E.'I.RRY: Province first and forenost 1 Lat if Kitts-.lic:C!elin needed limestor,e t!1en oh'<!iously that would make the ~)raje-::t even r..ore viable. ~-'L'q,. S • ~r:S_J;RY : ~1;:<. SPL\.-..:J::R: (:·lr. Sirni:ls) A .:;upplementary question, :1r. Si=eaker. Suppl~~entary, the hon. rneQber for L~Poile,followed by the han. member for Port au Port. :•!r.

Speaker, I ···ould like to ask the ~on. the ~'!inister of ~!ines and Energy, Sir, if ~RI~·TEX no~'l have t.:1ei.:= ?eo::: :e in ~·1-:wfounal3.nd, their engineers and. 30 fort~1 in :!ewfouncland to get tl1e ~reject in glace, to get it cff t~e grounC and if t!le matter of ernplo~e!1t on t~a.t .. ::-~eject ~2.s :Je~n Ciscussed ~~ri t~1 t~e niniste!:'? I am tole! i..s ;oi.:_s- t:1is? (;>Jul~ t:1e ~J.cn. gentler.:an tell us w·het.:le!:' or not ::lli.:J ~.,~':.i:.e~ has arisen? Where ~.>Jill tl1e e~:l.;..i.i_i?r:-.e.nt .:1:-.c.. ~:.a terial..: i:.e ;: urch=-.5.:::~..-? Will they ~L:.rc~ase...: in :re'.v·four ..

C::lar:.d? Li.lt I -_-.., :r.urs concerr~e<l -::om~.ar..y ~.talle a stata.1.ent recently that only SO 9er cent :-.. a~ives, l;l.dia.n..:; a::..d Eski:ncs, .;c.ulu b~ er:.?loyed an t:1at ~roject i:: 3.nd ·~<~·:1e:: it Jet3 off t~e ground • . :R.

L. 3AR..'<Y: :5tate":1e!lt :.aUe to me and :-.. one to soverl~ent tl"lc.t I .J.:::.t aware. of ,2. .. li.l ·,.,;culL!. uake any .5J.c:1 s tate.r.1ent. ~~ow, whether :.lJ.c stci.tl2.oLlt:..r.t has l:...::en t::.·Jistec.l !.;y t .. 1e ::.on .. :n-=m.:.:.er,u.ni.~.J.Centio:-.. allj" I a.i.t. so...~.r2, ;:,o :. .• l.:: effect that it rr1ay :1.0 t te ~ossible to obtain f~om an~l _da..rtic:ular 3.rea. of ti.1e P~ovince sufficient ind.i.~;-iC.ual.s ·"-~·it> .. the skills nc:.::essari' for a -~~i:1ing operation, I :io not kno·..;, h . .lt t.!ltL.;,;ately ·w·e ~ ..... ant. co see as :.tany per.son.3 ~m~loyed frow ~abr...tdor en ':hi.s E,Jroject ai:; is _t.,.cssibl:.=.

Lea~, .~e.~r. 3889

Cecember 3, 1979 Tape NO. 1546 so - 2 there, che more economicall y v~able ic will be in te~ of a projecc. scm: HON. MEMBERS : :.l.R. L . aARRY: Hear, hear! I mean, why wocld a mining operation briltq people in from elsewhere 1.f they have people locally who can be e.mployed c..'lere? Y-~· S. NEARY: Bay (inaudible) . MR. SP~~ : (Simms) l1R. ~· .lARRY: :.1R. S. :~EAR¥ : :.1R. SPEAKER: MR. :. . 3ARRY: (Inaudi!> le) cake tile houses in Goose Order , please I Also, Mr. - (Inaudible! tend to hire (inaudible). Order, please! Also , chis is nons~~se, ~. Speake r. What: is this se...""1:z.ng of SO per cenc?

The hon. member, maybe this is what he ·,.rants co have - HR. S. NEARY: :·!R. S!>EIJ<.ER: MR. L. BARRY: :.l.R. S. NEARY: them say ~t (in audiblel. MR. L. aAR.'I.Y: (Inaudible) the company has said (inaud~l el. Order, ploas e t They have not said i;: co me - (Inaudible) native people. Well, I heard - they have not said it to me and if they do say ic to me I •,.rill tell them to qo bac.~ - MR. SPEAKER: Order , please! Order, please! The hon. member r~ asked a quescion and I c!unk that the !lon. '11i11ister should be <:~iven :..'le opporcunl.ty co reply. SOME HCN. MEI'!E"'RS : !'..R. :;?EAKER: ~~. L.

SAAA'i: Hear, hear! T!le hon . ~ll.nister of :-tines and Energy . They have not said i~ to me and if they de say it to me I will tell them, 'Do not oe so :oolish, boy. Go back and look at ic again. How do you ~ow you can only get 50 per cent of your ·.,;orkers :...'l Labrador?' You know, we '"ant co !lave a !uller e.<;>lanat:.on of whac til~y are say:.ng t!tan that: . I am qivinq the hon . 3890

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1546 SD - 3 ~!R. L. BARRY: member the benefit of the doubt that somebody connected with the company has said it, which I would find surprising: they have not said it to me. And on the second point, yes, Mr. Speaker, the company, as I understand it, has been, as is necessary in any project, examining 3891.

December 3 , 1979 Tape No . 1547 NM - 1 )1R • 3AR..'U' : employmenc aspe~t. s, e :<amining tile question of what equip menc is go inq to be nec essary "-ll<i so OIL Ic is thi s governmen 1:' s ;:ol1cy ti)c.t to til e maximum e xcen c poss .lble employment: be !rom Hichin the Pro v ince , t..'le purchase of suppLies and rna t erHu be f::-om wi t..ltin the ?rovinc e 1 and any company t.'lat does no t: comply with che se gui<i e.l.l.Ile S will no t be c o ns idered a good r.or;:orate citizen a s far as t..~s governmen t: is conceu,ed . Sear, hea r~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : OrC.er, 9lea s e!

"The time !or Ot:p.l Que s t: ions has expired . ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR ~~~CH NOTICE HAS a~ GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The ha n . the Premier. ! have an a nswe r h e ~e, Hr . Speaker, to ~ues tion number 5Lx, July lSth . , asKed by the h~, . m~~er for r.aPoila ( ~!r . e ary) , and I table the answer. hank you. 1i.~ . SPE..l\...'<ER: The hon. Mi~ste r of Healch . MR. . :lOOSE: ~1r . Speaker, que s tion number fif1:y - four on t.'l.e Order ?aper , a s ked by the member f or La?oile (~ !r . Neary) , and I table the answer . noo ~!R . SPE:AXE:R { Simms) : The hen . membe::- for LaPo~le. ~!.R. NEARY: i1.r .

Speaker, be fore we move on to Ord e rs of the Day, and I do not: wish t:e emba=ass Your Honour L" any way , shape or form, but I believe, Sir, tha t: it: wou,l d be i:!.pproflnate to draw to the attencion o f hen . members on both s ices of ~~e House chat Your eono= has just !lean made a li!e member o! the Kinsme:'l Organi:za .t:.ion , and believ ·e ·,...,e r.o~oulci be remiss !.tl our responsilii-it.ies in ~~is House if we ·id not offer ~our ?~no= our si~cere congratulations, especially from th-s side of tile House, and I am sure cha~ Other members on the opposite side of t:he Rouse - S :•1E iiON. )'!E.'ISERS : ffea.r , hear~

Dec~~er 3 , 1979 Tape No . 1547 NM - 2 - I do noc know if it is in order to move that Your Honour draft ¥our Eonour a letter of congratulations bot I am sure some body could cake it upo n themselves co make it official an~ send - ?roba.bly chc Government House Lea,der - might •..:ish to communicate on beha:i! of all mero.bers of the House our congratulations to Your Honour. !-t..'l.. S?EA.'<ER (Sinms): .)1-~ - MARSHALL: The hon . ?resident of the Council . Mr. Speaker, it is ve:cy rare that t.he~e is cc•mplete unanimity on this side of the Hous e, particularly with the hon . member for LaPoile (Mr .

Neary ) , but:. certainly in this matr.er chere is e<>mplel:.a unanimity and •.te join wh?le - heartedly in tongratulacing Your Honour and also wishing Your Honour many, many years in your present position as •.;ell as in your life membershl.p . S0:1E :iON. :OIEl,ffiERS : ~tR . S?E:.l\.KER': iike to make a comment? Hear, hear! Are ~~re any other members who would Hear, hear ! ORDERS OF THE DAY : Order ?, Bill No. 5$ 3893

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1548 PK-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order 2 - Committee of the Whole on a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise anc!. Consolidate the Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration 0£ Municipa: Government In The Province." On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee o£ the Whole House on the said bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. BAIRD) : MR. NEARY: Sections 10 - MR. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: MR. YOL"NG: MR. NEARY: COMMITTEE OF THE I'IHOLE : Order, please! The han. member £or LaPoile. As Your Honour i ·!! aware we are debating (Inauc!.ible).

Your Honour r"cognized me? (Inaudible) . Well, we know - well, unless the House changed since we adjourned at 1:00 o'clock on Friday we know what we are debating. MR. YOUNG: MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : MR. NEARY: coma of some kind. MR. CHAIRMAN: Amendments 109 and 110. MR. NEJ'.RY: MR. CHAII~l-IAN : MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) . Order, please! Unless the han. gentleman was in a Order, please! We are now discussing Bill No. 58, That is right. The han. member for LaPoile. And after me heaping such gr~ t praise on the member for Harbour Grace (Mr.

Young) the other day, and telling the House what an intellect the han. gentleman was, now he does not know what is going on in the House. The han. s·entleman is going to let me down. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. NEARY: You were wrong again 'Steve'. I was wrong again. Mr. Chairman, when the House rose at 1:00 o'clock on Friday the member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), the 3894

December 3, 1979 Tape 1548 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations who does not seem to be aware of what is going on around him,who thinks he is an expert on municipal affairs, who is now advising the present Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor), little Mussclini, the little dictator that I call him, when he was in the Department of ~unicipal Affairs he had everybody frightened to death, he had every municipality in Newfoundland frightened to death.

But he got up the other day and told me that I did not read the Act, I did not know what I was talking about, the han. gentleman, and then proceeded, by the way, to get a little personal and a little nasty. AN EON. MEMBER: Who? MR. NEARY: The han. Premier should stay in the House because when the han. gentleman's back is turned,despite the fact that he has laid the law down about getting personal and ~~king snide remarks and lowering the decorum of the House 1 he should have been here the other day to hear his Minister of Hanpower and Ind'lstrial Relations.

But anyway I would like to inform the han. gentleman that I have read Section3 109 and 110 of the bill. I have it here in front of me. And then the han. gentleman went on to say, "There is going to be chaos in Gander. What is going to happen?", he said. He was so concerned about co=unities, municipalities like Gander. "What is going to happen i."l Gander; 11 he said. And what is going to happen in Corner Brook? Oh, if they cannot collect the property tax, they cannot impose a property tax 1 what is going to happen? Well, you talk about twisting and distorting something that was said in this hon. House.

My main complaint about Sections 109 and 110 is that they are under.1ocratic. And I hate to be repeating myself. but what other word can you pick tr~n undemocratic to describe a situation that is not carried out in a constitutional manner'f

Section 110 is my main complaint. If the government wants to allow Gander and Corner Brook and all the other communities that are 3895

~ecembe: 3, 1979 ':'ape 1548 ?K - ) ~tr . Neary : pre$ently collecting a property cax, i£ t:hey W<Ust: to allow them to continue to do t r.at, a ll they have to do is to put: a very simple sect:ion in the Act saying t-ha t councils may impose a real proper~:y ca.x, if they so desire 1 after prio r consu.l~:ation with t:h~ depa ronent and a reie:endum is cond uceed in the municipality in which they want to impose the real ,?roperty tax . That is all they have eo do . 1 am not saying , and ! have no1:. said , and we a.re :lOt ciebat:ing -:.he pros and cons of the property eax, we are not: debating that . debating whe·ther municip a lities need 38~6 \-ie are not

December 3,1979 Tape No. 1549 AH-1 ~IR.NEARY: ~oney. We are not debating that. ~R. M.'WSHALL: MR.NEARY: the money or they do not need the That is what your amendment says. No,_ my amendment does not say that. :tr .C.~airman, I would welcome a very simple wording from the Cloverrunent House Leader to say to the effect that town councils all over. this Province can impose a real property tax after a referendum is held in the municipality. Now '.-?hat is wrong with that? My amendment says that Sectionsl09 and 110 should be deleted but then if the hen. gentleman wants to bring in mother

section to rep ;Lace Sections 109 and 110, then I would re va~J happy to react to it. What we are objecting to, Sir, and the Minister of ~a."Ipo•;er and Zndustrial ?.elations (Mr. Dinn) knew t:1is but he tried to twist omd turn and squirm ar'd tried to come to the rescuer of his colleague '"h,o i3 digging his grave deeper every cay he is C.iscussing this bill. Municipalities are nm; st.arting to get the ~essage from this House of Assembly t.'>at all is not right '"i th this bill. I have another t-elegram today in front of me, another telegram, and there are other members who have talegra..-ns.

I ·= sure gov•~rnment mcrnrers, private members and ministers have telegrams. Here is cna from Pert aux Basques about another aspect of this bill. It says~ ''Following message sent to Len Stirling today. If by giving authority to Cabinet to take away assets without cm:~pensation means eventual loss of water supply system installed and paid for by residents of this town, council strongly objects to any such authority being given and ~1ould appreciate any assistance you can give at this time. Signed Rodrick Keeping, Mayor of Channel Port aux Basques!.' I ,.JCuld like to ta..!:Jle this telegram.

Thac: is the third one. How many does the han. gentleman want? 'ilell, hew many does the han. gentleman want? If the hen. gent.leman had twenty­ two •.rould he then withdraw this clause that makes it compulsory for ':o·r.. councils to i~pose a real property tax? MR. MARSHALL: DR. COLLINS: M...'<.. NEARY: (Inaudible) (Inaudible) member. I beg your pardon? 3SS'7

De>ce..'llber 3,1979 Tape No. 1549 AH-2 :•!R.NEARY: l·ie are very familiar with the hon. gentle~an's mathematics after last year. What was it the hon. gentleman said? You go from two per cent to three per cent - ~nd what did he call it? t1R. F. ROWE: .)1R • ~EJI.RY : A one per cent increase. A one per cent increase. From two per cent to three per cent , a one per cEnt increase. \'le used to have a fellow over on Pell Island in :.C1"siness and he said you buy for one dollar and you sell for two. One re:!: c2nt. DR. COLLINS: That was Fred Rose. MR.NEJI.RY: ::<o1it was not Fred Ease.

Fie was not in that kind of business. ~lr. Chairman, I do not know what else can be said about Cla~se 110. Just about everything , I suppose, has been said that can be said about it. It. is 'N'rong. I would think it is unconstitutional and I would think if it was tested in the courts it would te rendered to be unconstitutional.

What the goverr~ent is doing, Sir, '"hat they are doi.~g and it is just as well to face it man fashion, they are doing what they were too co"ardly to do directly, they are using the legislature , they are using the legislative process to whack in ~~e property tax, to put the property tax in, to sock it to the people who live in communities where you have water and/or sewerage servicing fifty per cent or more of the community. That is what they are doing. No~', :-!r.

Chairman, as I said earlier we are not arguing whether or not the council needs t..lv' c.;oney, ~~he~~er -:>r not the government is sneaking in ':h.::ough ~~e ~ackd:JO:!: ~<•hat they cou: i not do throcgh ~~e front doer. AN HON .l".E.'1BEP.: :iffi..NEARY: (Inaud~ble) . No, Mr. Chairman, that is 11ot what I >~arted to say at all, Sir. That is not what I 'N'anted to say. He are not

December 3, 1979 Ta;>e 1550 EC - 1 1-!R. "EARY: debating at this particular time ~nether or not the council needs the money. We are not debating ~~at, ~e are debating the principle of forcing the property tax on Newfoundlanders and ~abradorians through using and abusing a privilege in this House. SOME HON. ~·IE: · !BERS : ~R. :l'EARY: Hear, hear! That is what is happening, Sir. Th~~ God, ~•e word is starting to filter ~~rough up over my shoulder.

Once in a while now you will get a story being pumped out telling the people that in ~~is bill ~~ere is going to ~e a compulsory property tax and telling ~~e people ~'lat in ~;,is bill the Cabinet has the right to set up regional government. It is starting to get through. But these are only t:'.<o uad features about ~;,is bill. If we can hold the government on this bill long enough, ~!r. Chairman, if we can keep the government here until Christmas Eve on ~is one bill , a.ad ·..re are only about- What? now far down are we now? MR. WARREN: One-tenth. A.J.~ HON; ME!.ffiER: One-sixth. ~!R. N?:ARY: One-sixth, are we?

About one-sixth of ~~e bill done - by the time we move several amendments on Clause 110 and several o~~er amendments on other clauses that should bring us up to Christmas Eve and by that time we should have had reaction from all ~'le municipalities and a cross-section of ~~e people of this Province. 'l'lhat '"ill you be doing on Boxing Day? What will I be doing on Boxing Day? That is about L~e extent of the intelligence of ~~e hen. gentleman.

The hen. gentleman sits over there, supports a government that is bringing in unde~ocratic measures, is bringing measures int~ ~~is nous~ that impose and intrude on people's lives, that affect people's daily lives, and the han. gentleman comes up '"ith the '"erst drivel that you could ever hear from a member in this House. Honest t.:) God, L~ lr. Chairman, it :,vould mak~ you ·,;onder about the democratic process.

It ·N'oulG. make you wonC.er, Sir, about w:1et-n.e:r or not democracy is going to snrvi'.re when ycu see peopl: go out and e.!.ect t..1.e likes of t..~at to t1.1is House of Asser.lbly, :L ~,auld say 3899

Oece~er 3, 19i9 '!'ape 1350 EC - 2 t..~at. he i .s supporting ~as !':>rougnt in :.n ~e last couple of yea:s all :.U.nds of measures t:r.at goVP.rn people's daily lives , regiment people ' s lives, dictate co people what they can co and what they canr.oc do . Onl.y , r b e lie'le , two SUIIU!lers ago, the governme.'lt told ~~e people of c~is Province, 'You have co get a pe:mit co pic~ ::.lueb er:-ies.' And t.here ..,as such a fuss kicked up ah:out it t."ley eventually backed away from it and t.'-ley said , 'Oh , ::he per:uit i s :ree - you cio :~ot ~av-:! to pay :or i :: .

Till ..,e are -i!oing is qetti:lq a. racord o f ::.;ose people w~o pick ol~:ebe rz:i.es 0 t 3ut then. if they !lad gottt!n a:,;ay ·o~i th it. tne ne:-:.: year you would have to pa.y for t.'lat ?ermJ.t. 3ut ::.hey die! not qet away •,dc.'l it. . Th.ey •,;ill soon, Sir, !:>e regulati ng the nu."!!ber o f times that: you are allowed co go .:o t;,e bat.'"lroom every day. And t.•is

Section 1!0 is j ust ano the r example, :-1r. Chairman. (!:~audible) . 'ile jus:: had an inte r jection . ':le just heard from clla :m.nis~er ~esponsiOle =o.r st.arvinq cattl-e .:.n 3onavista ! SO!·IE ao;;. :-E~!BE?$: Oh, oh! Sir ! ·rhe :,on . 9!n1:..leman would be far becte= o:f i f he we~oc cut:. and cou."'lted c.~e number of la--rvae on tile bran6es o:: C::ae balsam t i ~ tr-ges in =.'"lis p·r ov:Lnce and ~ook. a

DacenU:>er 3, 1979 Tape 1lo. 1551 DW - 1 :1R. S. NEARY: look at the spruce budworm. 1·ne hon. gantleman seems to be res~onsible for all kinds of disaster in this Province, the spruce budworm and the starving cattle down in Bona­ vista. ~et me read the Clause, Sir, tnat government backLenchers and ministers are supporting. ~~datory real property tax,

section 110 (1) - no~:. hon. gentlen:an should ?ay attention to this because I ~- sure that some of them have not eve~ taken the time to read it because if they had - nothing sets the devil in me more, ram 3ure,a~d members on all sides of tnis 1-iouse and dewfoundlanders, t..':a.n to be cictated to by an arro­ gant government and ti1is government, Sir, ~s ~ecoming arrogant, i"las become a(\'rogant, is rr.ore arrogant t.'lan the government tnay. useO. to refer to that was here for t•;enty-th r~e years.

You talk aLout arrogance; we saw an example of it tne ot.'ler day,tna show­ rr.anship and the arrogance, and we saw the minister ~:e to tne air­ ·,;aves on telav~sion and display his arrogar.ce. It is a i..aa. eXain!Jle set !Jy the Pren :ier. A...~d r:ere is '..:ilat

section 110 says, Y~r. Chairrr.an, "Every council that nas a •,;ater systerr ,, se•,erage system or a water ana sewerage system serving r..ore than fifty per ;;ent of the residents of ti1e town shall impose the real property tax pursuant to

section 109", and tnat is why I had to include

section 109. If the ilOn. gentlel':'an wants to replace it '"im new wording I would certainly •.;elcorr.e it.but there i.:; reference tc

section lJ9 so 1 .1ad to rr-aKe in ny atliE:nlli'l~nt in order to get at t:le ~oat o£ t:1c ?ro.blerr: to trto,re c.hat

section 109 and 110 be ;".eleted, "pur:ma.r.t to

section 109 to taJ.;.E:! effe..::t ..,..,b.en assessrr.ents a~e conLpleteci unGer The J..;;sessment ,;ct." It i: calleci r.1andetor 1 r'Oal ,_.,roperty tax, t i1e council ,, a:; no c.i.Loice, the peopla ~1c1ve no cr..oice ar..d I ·NoulO. su.:.r::i t, i'·~r ~ C .. 1airman, f OU are going to have ma3s resignations. You will not set Feo~le to run for councils ·~hen t..1ey u.iscover that the~{ are goinr::1 to :...c up in t.1c firi ng line, t..:,.at tney are t.~ e ones wno are goin g to na.ve r.o .... ear t .. :..t: Drunt of ti:tis clausc4 ' .... hey :1ave no choice! 'lllej' cannot

Jecerr~~r 3, 1919 'J.ape :Jo. 1551 Dlv - 2 !·~. S. NEARY: ~ut it to the people. They cannot ask tHe people if tney · .. ant a property tax, they have to force it on them. 1';1ey have to :Oajr, 'Look, we have no choice because

section 110 of the ;,ct says that where you are supplyino:; a con:rr.uni ty with fifty per cent 1vater and sewerage,~<ell,the tax is mandatory'. ,;o referandum! .•o p1ebisci te! r,o petition! Nothing! Force it on ther,,! MR. F. ROWE: i!R. S. NEARY: They said no increase in taxes (inaudible).

Little l•apoleon over there says, 'Force it on t:1em'. ''h::!' the Ayatollah Khomeir..i over there is onl::.' a baby corupared to this crowd, what they do he:te in the nc.rr.e of democracy, in the name of t::1e legislative process, the things they try to ~meak through this liouse. i.at them do it man fashion, At least the Ayatollah <ices it man fashion, he does not beat around t:..b.a bush. \'ie l1ave so ;nany Khomeini' s over there that it is pathetic.

The people sho"'-llc: be the ones to ciecide whether or not they al!e going to pay a poll tax- first of all, .,·nether they want a tOl!Il council, ·~·hether they are go inc; to ;oay a poll tax or '"'netner tl:ey are going to J,Jay a property tax, a real tJroperty tax, the people sl1ould decide. Before there were no negotiations be1:ween tile town councils and the Department of ~1unicipal Affairs and b:.at is the ~.ay it :.hould be. iJo it through negotiatioH and "·ark through tne town council and the people and do not force it on them Mr.

C..'"! airman, tnis i,; go inc; to do no tiling to help regional disparity in this Province. The c;overnrnent are moving pretty swiftly to try to raise taxes in t..1i.:; Province. Tile . .,hole purpose, Sir, of not . making the property tax mandator; before was to give tne smaller col!'.rr.uni ties an opportunity to catc:O. up to tile larger communities in t:i1is Province. Tne sn,alle.c communities that nave no .5ervices,

Decemb~r 31 1979, Tape 1552, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: give them an opportunity to get these services. First of all, Newfoundland had to catch up with Canada. That is why she was a little bit wide open in the last twenty-five or thirty years. A lot of communities that were helped and assisted and given subsidies and grants would never have had the water and sewerage, they would never have been able to flush a toilet, they would still be using the outdoor privies but for the generousity of the public treasury that this crowd seem to be so strongly opposed to, that they are against.

The smaller communities that have not been fortunate enough to get on the bandwagon and get ~~e water and sewerage, where people are still using the outdoor privy and carrying their water in ~uckets, and there are a few communities in my own district in that category, w~ll now be discouraged from getting the modern every day services, they will be discouraged by the government that represents the big towns and the urban centres, whic"­ always said they were all for rural Newfoundland. They are for rural Newfoundland alright~ PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Like Conne River (Inaudible) .

I beg your pardon? Like Conne River and the town of Francois and all those other great towns. MR. NEARY: What is the Premier saying? I do not understand the message but I will gladly yield to give the hen. gentleman an opportunity to make a statement if he wants to or to ask a question. What is it the hen. gnetleman is trying to get across? Is he going to build a bridge down in Conne River? He is so proud of himself. He went down and ~layed a little bit of politics with the poor people of Conne River - MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Order, please~ MR.

NEARY: - with a candidate that was not even a resident of the Province. What is the problem? l-!R. CHAIID'.AN : I would like you to sti ck to

December 3, 1979, Tape 1552, Page 2 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : the amendment please . MR. NEARY: The hon. the Premier said something about Conne River. I do not know if Conne River has water and sewerage or not, Mr. Chairman, but if they do not have it, if they were not fortunate enough or lucky enough to get it they certainly will not get it now when they know they are going to be faced with the property tax. MR. R. MOORES: point. MR. NEARY: That is right. A very good Because they need, Mr.

Chairman, anywhere from five to ten years after they put in the services to get their feet on the ground and so this is going to, instead of wiping out regional disparity, Sir, this is going to help foster regional disparity. We can see it in the field of education, we see it in just about eve~y field of public service, regional disparity and all this is going to do is foster it. There will be people living in communities in Newfoundland - the hon. gentleman says, Well, we do not believe in resettlement. Well, what is this?

This is a very subtle ~1ay to say to the smaller towns and municipalities, You will never get water and sewerage, you will never get it. This is what this particular clause of this bill means, Sir. I am surprised there have not been editorials written in ever1 newspaper in Newfoundland, that the open lines have not been blocked solid with people up in arrns saying, Look, if we are going to pay a proper·ty tax, we will decide whether we ·,;rill pay it or not. I am surprised that the - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: That is right, they disguise it, they say, Oh, what a major reform this is.

What a major refor.n~ The han. gentleman is going to make his mark as Minister of Municipal Affairs, he is going to go down in history, this is going to be the Magna Carta for running munici;;;ali ties in :Jewfoundland . It is, Sir, the Property Tax Bill and the Regional Government Bill. Last year they were defeated

December 3, 1979, Tape 1552 , ?age 3 apb MR.~: on tLat bill in the ~ouse, ~,ac Regional Government ai11 and they have been sulking and kicking themselves ever since, and brouding, and now they are · going to do i c another •l{ay and they thi!',i( the people are too stunned to see what. chey are up to . 1-lell, everybody knows what t.bey are up t:O and if we have to st:ay here until Christmas Eve to gee the message ~,rough to Newfoundl~1ders whac the government is up to, then we are prepared to do it. As I say, Sir, I am noc ar~uing for or against the propercy tax, 39 i'S

December 3, 1979 Tape 1553 PK - 1 Mr. Nearv: I am not arguing for or against municipalities imposing a property tax if they want to1 that is their decision. It is up to the council and it is up to the people, and if they need the money, then they will take the initiativ~But they should not use this House as a big stick to come down on the backs of the ordinary people of this Province and force a property tax on them~ What a Christmas gift~ What a Christmas gift, Mr. Chairman.

Two or three weeks before Christmas the government that campaigned and said, "We are not going to increase taxes in Newfoundland~ en ,June 18, prior to th~ election, 'We are not going to increase taxes: they said, 'in Newfoundl~nd_:; a.1d now they are going to make the property tax mandatory. Is it any wonder, Mr. Chairman, is it any wonder that people have become cynical, disillusioned, and discouraged about politics and politicians? Is it any ~1onder when you get that kind of political hypocrisy?

And ~s it any wonder that the government will not allow the proceedings of the House of Assembly to hit the airwaves, to be ~elevised and broadcast? Is it any wonder they want to hide this kind of legislation? They want to hide - L am relevant do not worry - they want to hide Clause 109 and Clause 110, and all the other clauses in this Act from the people of this Province, and that is why they will not allow the sessions of the House to be televised.

The Premier will take to the airwaves, himself 1 tomorrow or the next day and he will say, What a wonderful, what a lovely legislative programme we have, a legi~lative programme of reform. And then everybody in Newfoundland will bow like they bow co Ayatollah Khomeini and say, that is right. That is right Premier Brian Khomeini Peck£ord, you are right, Sir, a major legislative programme.

But. they will not allow the sessions of the Hou::;e to be televised so that people can see what their legislative programme consists of, what it is comprised of, wratwe are debating in this House, things that intrude on people's lives without people having any input, any say in these major decisions that are made. That is why we do not see the microphones and the television cameras on the floor of this House.

December 3, 1979 ,'1r. Mar shall: MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : MR. MARSHALL: so he can get a rest. Tape 1553 On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order. PK - 2 The hon. gentleman (inaudible) refrain But the han. gentleman is completely out of order, he is talking about the televising of debates and the breadcasting of debates. The amendment that he has brought before the Committee is amendments to Sections 109 and 110 to have them stricken out, and it has absolutely no relevancy whatsoever ~o those particular sections. MR. THOMS: It seems to me that - MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : of order. MR. THOMS: MR.

CHAIRMAN : MR. THOMS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. THOMS: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. No point of order can be raised on a point No, no, I said, to the point of order.

Section 231 (

a) Beauchesne. I said, to the point of order, Mr. Chairman. To the point c:>f order. The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that my hon. friend fer LaPcile (Mr. Neary) is completely relevant when he speaks of bringing the matter of the television set into this, because it seems to me that what he is saying here is that, of course, it is something that should have been widely broadcast t-rj_or to this. And his reference to television is completely in order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: On the point of order as to whether or not he was relevant , I think, we are possibly straying a little from it. I just like to remind the member to be relevant. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I was straying a little, so I presume I was a little bit right teo. Because what I was saying, Sir, up over my shoulder are supposed to be the eyes and the ears of this House. I do not know if, and I do not want to be critical, but I do not know, Sir, if that is true today. I do not know if the ~eporting

December 3, 1.97<3 ~lr . Ne.arv: • :;N BON • ME.'IB£R: MR. NEARY: sent:leman is over t.he:e smiling. Tape 1553 is that: good,that the ("Inaudible) . PK - 3 - not all , some, not al~ . The hon. I do not kno<oo~ .1.f the report:ing is that good that: the message is get:ting across of ... ~.at: it is we are coing in this House, what we are debating . We are debating a bill, a maJor piece of ie<;islat:.l.on six hundred ·'ll1d some odd - how :nany clauses in ;:his !>ill? MR. THOMS: :-!R. N"'t.ARY: a major Over 600. over 600 clauses. in a bill which is 39 1~S

Decemeer 3, 1979 Tape 1554 EC - 1 :·IR. :~EARY: piece of legislation, and ~y remark concerning television,broadcasting the proceedings of ~~e House - I do not know, c1r. Chairman, if the eyes and ears of th . .i.s House, which is ~~e media up over my shoulder, is getting e"e message across or not, or would it be better, in order for people to see what the government is doing, to bring in the television cameras and the microphones on e"e floor of this House. HR. CHAIP~'W<: (Baird) :1R. BENNETT: The han. the member for St. Barbe . Mr.

Chairman, I would like to have a few comments on t-.he amendment to Clauses 109 and 110. When I spoke a few days ago, most certainly my opinions ·t~ere expressed. Probably I may not be able to say any further what has not already been said about Clauses 109 and 110, but there are a few telegrams and letters beginning to come in. I had two ~~is morning from the district I represent, and if you could bear wi~~ me, I •.vould like to read ~'1em and have them tabled for your future reference. This one comes from ~"e St. Barbe Central Development ~ssociation and it is signed by Mrs. \~entzell, who is the Chairr.~an.

It is addressed to myself and I understand she sent a copy of ~'1is to tb.e Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (i1r. N. Windsor) • "If •t~hat we understand is correct, your department is preparing to introduce a bill which would enforce property tax in rural Ne•t~foundland. We, the !llembers of Central Development Association and residents of the above communities in the electoral district of St. aarbe, wish to register our objections to ~·our government in enforcing property tax on residents when they are not f~lly aware or have t1e opportunity to understand all implications of Bill No. 58, especially ~~e

section wr1ich demands that proper1:.y 1:.ax be implemented in rur"l areas." Signed: Effie '-'entzell, President, Central Development .;ssociation. I ~"a1."e ano~'1er from ~'le o!ayor of Port ~aunc'.ers, r-irs carmel Lavalle. It is addressed to myself and it says, "Dear ~lr. Benn<Ott: ,;s 1-'..ayor of the town of Port Saunders, I would like to make a comment on the government's levying a property tax on all municipalities in t.1is P:-ovince. I feel t..i-J.at this i~ irranature thinkir.g and t..'lat ev-c:n the iC..ea lacks planning expertise," ciear, he c.~!

~ece~~er 3, 1979 Tape 1554 E:C - 2 :t.'t. 3E::r.-;ETT: .. and more impo r~r.ly, common sense. One cay '"e hear o! t."te Clillions of eollars t.:lat ~o~ill be qenera ced in tile Province ~ecause of the offshore ol.~, and al.Jios:; in :he same !:)ro-at:h, t.'ley cell us, ·~1 :nu:nicipalicies . .,ill b'3 t:axec . ' :ve have not.hing to warranr. r.axin<; our ;::eople. 11/e have no.: ev .. n r.he wortil of r.he recycling of our ;::rovincia1 taX eollars. ~!ost of t.'le small communities are 'have not' comnu:U. ties, !:lut: especially ::he :.-lort..'lern Peru.nsul a.

If . .,e wa."lt :;o gee .1 legal doc urnenc filled ouc, have an eye exanunation, see a :necicc.l speciall.st:, a lawye r, plus many or.hers, '"e havP. to drive 180 mi.les to Cor.le r Srook; '"e :la ve -:o spend money :or lodg:u:gs - a 360 :nile ret;,;_rn r.rip. l.;e have ~o golf cou_-ses, no curlin g or skacinq or ice surfac es , no ~s and Culture s. no fac ilities, no theatres, no qovenunenc depot:s , no tie-up faci!i cies !or our :'ishe::v.en, and rr.ore people unemploye<:! t.:lar. employed. We ?ay as crono::U.cal pri~s :or food, !or clo::hir.g, !or gas, !or liquor - you naJr.e it a."ld ~e pay more.

For inscance, ~e have no sewer system, anc - can tell you,it will take so~.e years o! paying a ;::roper:;¥ t~< ~o enable ~'le gove~n:; :;o puc a sewer syscem here. aecause o: ehe lay of ~~e town, ~~ ·.•ould cost :ni.~lions. \ie nave no prot:ection, like Cor.surner and Co::porace Af!ai ::-s, no l.nformacion cenc:res - ·.,e have noc.'1ing . excej?l! a ·.:at:er syst:em, ?aid =scly 39i0

December 3, 19?9 Tape No. 1555 NM - l MR. BENNETT: by LIP grants, and garbage collection and street lights. And to add insult to injury,McGrath has turned down something that took years to build up by allowing large destroyers to fish in the Gulf. There is a possibility that next year our boats will be on the Banks. When the PC's began to campaign in Newfoundland, and Mr. Peckford was a member of that team, we were told, "If we are elected we will have a government of the people." You will have to forgive me1 I can hardly read some of this, Mr. Chai=.an. It was written in haste it seems.

"Not for the people, you the people, and the government, and we are your elected representatives to do what you, the people, want us to do. You, the government, under different leadership, but part of the prior one, is bringing in legislation to make people pay property tax without any input from L~e councils or the people. We are on the threshold of dictatorship, or communism, in a modified form, we are not being asked, we are being told. Where do our tax dollars go?- to build golf courses in Clarenville, or a new tourist chalet in Corner Brook, etc., etc. We are not ready for property assessment.

In no way are we ready. It is only this past year most of the homes were-", I cannot read this very well, but in essence what is being said is that in the last year or two we have had a RRAP programme, a federal programme, introduced to the district of St. Barbe, and the housing has been upgraded considerably, which,in effect 1 will give the council an opportunity to levy a higher tax, simply because of the upgrading of these homes by this RRAP programme. "This past year most of the homes were made presentable through the RRA? programme.

Now our government is going to take the homes that are done up, or renovated by federal grants, make sense to you? And there is a big question mark behind this. That is the view of the mayer ~nd. I guess, all of the mayors ' I in the have not areas. "I would like t c suggest that most of t he water systems and sewerage systems chat have been already introduce~ i~ :=ural ceas have :::,e~n done eit.,er ·wi':...'L LI? projects o:!:' :JREE mor,ey, · . ..rhicn

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1555 NM - 2 ~IR . BENNETT: apparently did not come Erom our provincial government: authority ." !n a lot of little communities , in tiny communities, a lot of t.hese water systems were insUilled by local labour, . .,ith very, ·very mea~e government: support:. financially . ~lost of t!1e rural areas of Newfoundland , and r might be bold enough to say all of the rural areas of Newioundland, have been hundreds of years, Mr . Chairman, hundreds of years , without t!Je ser•Tices of water, except Eor a well.

Now1 all of a sudden we are expected to pay through the nose if ·,.;e have a pipeline !?iped to our homes. We are already overtaxed, ve_~ much so. Our people are already overta.'<ed in these SJQall areas . t\s ;:.~e lacl.y stresses here, everything that they ~eed in those rural areas they have to go 100 miles away to get :::he services. They are overtaxed on gasoline. They are overtaxad on income ta x. She is asking the ~u estio n in this lecte r, 'What happens to our 3912

December 3,1979 :Cape No. 155 6 l'.H-1 ll!r. BENNETT: tax dollars? ' And I think ~est people in the Province would like to ask what happens to our tax dollars. Tax collars have been coming into the government for hundreds of years with very, very few dollars going back out into the communities to provide any of ~~e services that all of a sudden people are demanding. Surely goodness our forefathers have paid something, cur fathers and cur forefathers.

Down through the last fifty years, one hundred years, two 'lund red years, ·.~e have been pouring fish, lumber - t."le resources of the Province havebeen poured into the capital of Newfoundland, into St. Cohn 's,and very, very little 'l.as ever gone beck out into the communities by 1~ay cf services until the last very recent years, Just in the last few years have there been any dollars returned to the cormnunities, except in the fonn/mayte,of highroads. Eut ,,..·her: it col!1es to the arr.er.i~ies of life , very fe" dollars have been returned.

We are still penalized. with one television station, television ct:annel, CBC. \'le are victims in that respect. ~lone of the services are provide C. a..!ld still as soon as 1ve '' ant a water system or a sewerage system , 1.;here it can be installed, the government ~r ants to be 10aid for ::_t, wants ~o ne r<:.ic c·,rice for :.t. 'tie >rould certainly like to :mow · .• ·here the tax collars go.

I think these people here are very, very ri~ht in their desire to have an opportunity to read the implications of this Bill t:o. 58, and most certainly th~ tax section, when it comes to the taxing of properties in little communities. o~ost of you are aware, you hen. gentlemen are a•,;oare without a doul::t 1 that when you build a home in rural areas it does not appreciate in value like it coes in the bigger centers. One c an make a !::-usiness of building horr:es J.n the towns of St. Jol'm 's or Corner Brook and with the appreciat::.on of property values you can get to be ~uite a wealt.~y person.

But if you build a home in rural areas you have to o~n, maintain that home L,cefinitely. There is no way you can sell it and have an appreciatec value" you !'ave tc take a loss. So on top of all of ~)iS loss on properties in communities , now we are going to have a tax loss adced to the value of ~~ese ~roperties. 3913

t:ecell'l:-er 3 , 19 79 Tape No. 1556. AH- 2 Hr . Chairman, ! ,.·oulo hesitate to serve on a cOC!'JDuni~ council in ~ural areas. If I served on a council ~St. John's o~ ~,e =igger areas , ! think you all rea~ze how little ·A-e !<.."'ow our neiqhcour. lie never c;et to i:=.ow our neighl:our i n t.'le cities , con,;~quently ,_.e have not got the scu:te feeling of compassion as . .,.e have in sEall communitie s .

And ·~en you get into communities of 100 ~amilies or less ~"'d you serve on a council and you have to inflict tax on your neighl:our an C. you know every person in t.'lo>Je communi ties, you know every man, woman and cl>.ild in these little cornmunl.cies, and ·,..hen you have to inflict ~on an already overburdened Dreadwinner.you are not a very popula r :ellow.

No~ , the infliction of the tax is one teing bu t then when you have to call the sheriff to c~me and collect that tax if you hon . gentlemen ••er e ~an1 ilia~ ~ith tir.y comnunities aro~:nc the ?rov::.nce , I t."'i:Llt you -,;ould realu:e tha c people :ind l.c di!!iculc paying t."'e existi.nc; ;::oll te.-.: or ta.x :or collecting garbage . Gar~ac;e collect:l.cn seem:; to be jus c a.."out: :..'le :>nJ.y service proviced ~"' cui -:e .:1 ;-: • ~e r of sma!l co==i tl.es around t.'le ?rovince. Gover-~~ent has seen fl. t t.o :reeze, 391 ·1

Oecember 3, 1979 Tape No. 1557 S::> - l .lR. T. 3&'<1lETT: they :1ave seen fit to put a freeze on so many t.!1ings. They :•ave stopped spending but all of a sudden they e:q?ect people in rural areas to increase spending, all of a sudden ~e ~~ve to pay more but its ironic that we should become so ~1oroug~ly unemployed and we are thoroughly unemployed. The district of St. Barbe that I represent at t."clis ti.'!le, Hr. Chairman, certain areas of that district ~re 75 per cent unemployed.

We have only two lucrative areas in the total district, one has a fish plant, Port au Choix where people, seem to be reasonabl:f well e!nployed 1and ~'l.e other is !:Ianiel' s Har:!:>our ·.rhere we ~ave a mine •.•here people seem to be reasonably ;;mployec but for the rest of t.:1e area i~ i,; just seasonal occupation that we find ourselves the victim of.

We have to catch as catch car, as the: oi<.i s.:1ying goe.s, m~ke a dollar wuere we can. ~'1ll r~-.ost. of vu= j;~eople ~1ave to ~o au~ to the wai:1.lant..: to 3c~k -=rr1ployment and i~ is nat varx fair, i:1 -:c.y opinicn, to inflict taxes on .t"'eople in 3r...a.ll r;J.z:al areas whe11. t:1e.i no.ve to go out ~o Toronto or ;_ll;ert.a to make the dollars to :;>ay the taxes in ti1is Provine"'' eso;ecially ti1e taxes on the .?ecple •,;ho a.lrea..!y :1ave :: . .ae .ser-..rices anci. services t~u~ ~hey i1ave then:selves installed 1...'"1 .:;.any ~ases.

In t..1.e last fc:o/ years a lot of :;eor:le lla7e gi·JQ:l '.lp ~1eir \-Jells and tiley :"l.l.Ve ~ooked on t.o t~ei=- loc:!l ti1ree-·-iu.u.rtcr incn ~lastic pi;.e and t:1ey fine. i~ vecy convenie:..t :;ut :l1e cost W3.5 very :-.aminal an..:! :.f ti1e go•Jerr.J.:ent of this Pro'Jir-.ce C3.nnot see fit to do thal:t to give t!lat we.: Cit o£ service to t !1ese 1ieopl~, ~1en I J.c not }~1.ow ·.vila.t ·11e ~ave ~ goverr ... 1.:lenc for .:1r.U :"le.:.t.:~er ~o t:1c people in the districts.

Regulation in t~e ?rovinc2 der.ies ;Jl.lr ;;eople t..~e right to go lobster £isillng, denies our peo~le - it ta.J.:.es years to acquire a pisce of lanG to :tecome: a :::c.r::1er to ;a farming. You have ;at rei.! tape, all kinds of red tape to cut t!:roug~1 to .:;ct tirn.!::e.r :;r:1n-:.s. .lost of the ccu.ntrJ is taken 1.1p ~y some of ~ne 3915

..:eceru!::er 3, 1979 Tape :<o . 1557 S:l - ? and now, all o f a s~dcen , they a:e goi ng ~o be !'lal.l.cc , they are going ~o have this property tax i:1f l ic.:ec O:l t:::eir prope..-r:ies and i:, r;.y disu i Cl:, ?roperty ~ax is going :,o be b =licted on ho.:~es that :;ave just been '.lJ?graaed ::;y federal collars =u :u-.C.o ubt~l:t !:.'"lese hou;es will have a :U.c;her val·.le :or ::.he ,?rovi~cial aut:~ority to =eap ta.Aes :rom . \'le :"'!ave ~ot ;ot. the ?ro~ert:y ·.talues in be rural are as , ;.;e have :10t got tlre services in t..'le r:~rti areas , we :1ave :10 t got .:he em_plc~~m.ent in ::he rural a-=ea:;, tell oe, ! ·..;!.sh .;o;::;e!:ocy could ::ell :ae ·.~here t:he justi:i c acier. lies ~"'ac you c.:rn rr. throu .qh that 109 and 110 -

Section 109 and 110 - and i ::i:.:.c;: a taX on chese people who are alre ady ever burden ed, who are '.!I:employec 1 .anc who lack the services ::..'1.-u:. gover:1me r.t vclunteera to do '(/hen tt.ey ;o 3eek.inq . s:.Jppcr1t to ~eoorr-e -;ove ::runenc.. To me it :.s f:ou. ?.eo:>le !..'"1 ~.he ~is trice . ":hese ~eo~le are .:.>l.caC.J.:•s, : ::: . C~1 air:r~r: , • ... .:..::, c..\;e gover:tr.:-e .nt ':0 holJ .back. . AS ! und2:=t a::ci it, c;,e:r are only a.ski::~ -:.::.ar. you s:lould :told bad<. a:::c le~: t:lem. k.noe~ •..::·,at: i:> goi:tc.; on . T::ey '«an-:. ~ o :;e able ~o k~e-p c~eir enC up ~r.C pay ~teir •~tay . 3916

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1558 NM- 1 MR. BENNETT: A lot of people are suggesting that community councils will be the greatest land owners, through sherriffs having to go in and put liens on ~eople's property when they cannot meet their obligations. So I would most certainly like to plead with the government to delete 109 and 110 and most certainly I feel very certain that we are going to have more letters of this sort co~\ng in from all around the Province.

I would very much li}~e, if the han. gentlemen across have the welfare of this Province at heart, and the people of this Province at hear~, if they have telegrams and letters from their constituents,: plead with ~hem to bring them forward and table these letters and these telegrams and speak up for your districts. The people elected you to speak up for them. They did not elect you to come ir. and inflict more injury on them. I would venture to bet that if you would go back to the people, if this government went back to the peopie on this issue 1 they wculd get a rough ride. MR. NEARY: You can say that again. MR.

BENNETT: If you went back to the people on this particular issue, this tax 1 109 and 110, you would get a rough ride to form the government. I have had telephone calls from my district and I have asked people to send me letters so I can pass the information along to this House and it is the view of the people out there, it is the view of t~e taxpayers, it is the view of the electora~e, it is the view of the people who put you han. gentlemen in office, like myself, it is their view~ they went to the poll and cast their ballot to give you people a government - MR. WARREN: MR.

BENNETT: And they are kicking themselves ever since. - and I think out of all fairness it is your responsibility to go back to the people before you let that 109 and 110 go through and make it law. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

eecember 3, 1~79 !<!R. S?EW<ER (SIJ-!MS) : ~!R . R. MOORES: Tape No . 1558 The bon. member for Carbonear. Mr. Chairman, just a few brief commem:s on thi s bill. I have listened With interest to the sl.:bmissions by my colleagu e from St. Barbe (Mr . ~nne~t:), and NM - 2 r:ry colleague from LaPoile (Hr.Neary), a.'ld if there is ever a clause in any bill, or any bill ~~at has ever been pr.esented to this House that should be called the Juda s Iscariot ~laus e , we l~ th~s is it. S0!1E HON. M£1-!.BERS : Hear, hear! MR. !'l.

MOORES: This clause and this =>ill, is a complete betrayal. by this government and ics Premier of the :;>eopl e of Newfoundland, a betrayal of the trust that r.he people of r..'1is Province placed. in them when they were f>romised that t:here would be no taxation increase, promised publicly on television, publicly in the newsp apers and on the radios, no ta.-ca1:ion by this government J.f we are elected, and no taxat:ion does not mean some ~xation.

It does not. utean ;?anial taxation, it means none, no taxa cion at all. ~'"ld the first thing that this gov~rnment is doing tbiough the backdoo~ cowardly, irresponsibly, surreptitiously, deceitfully, ~~ough the backdoor, they are mandatorily imp~sing property tax on r..'1e i~ocent people of this Province in the municipalitieS chat are governed by local government , a betrayal of the trus~ o~ governmenc but, ~Qre impor~a."ltly, a bet:rayal of the democratic rights of the people upo n '"hom this claus e is to be imposed . Any law, regulatLon, clause, bill, 39:t8

::Jecember 3, 1979 Tape ,io. 1559 DH - l :m. :-:ceREs: any statute whatever that is mandato~ly i~posed upon any group of people is, in its essence,a depravation of rights of the people upon whom it is to be mandatorily imposed. My colleague for LaPoile (i!r. Neary) in somewhat flamboyant and harsh terms sars tuat these are Khomeini like tactics, something that you would see in a dictatorial goveli!Ilment or worse still, anarchy.

This type of action submitted by the Hinister of aunicipal r,ffairs but in everf sense ciirected by the Premier of this Province, and I say ~hat not without for~thought because it was tnis Prerr~er when he was the ~oinister of ·~lunicipal Affairs 1 who mandatorily imposed what we in Carbonear called the gutter tax.

He mandatorily imposed and specifically on t:.'le people of Carbon:ar because Carbonear ,._.as a pilot comrnunity 1 h8 came out ar.d he saiu to the ~eople of Carbonear, 'You will i?a'.f ~144 a year for your water and sewerage or you l'.'ill not ce siven any authority by my governrr,ent, by rr.y C.epartment to undertake capital borrowings for anyt..'1ing else'. :iow1 if t .. aat is not Khomeini like and if tnat is not evidence by me t:.~at this Prerrier, that th~ '1inister of ~lunicipal ;._ffairs is only his puppet th.U. it is ;,is attitude, that it is his personality tenind this Bill then I do not know what evidence you require.

Now it is real property tax and what­ ever real property tax i1as to do '"i tl1 water and sewer is beyonc me. !£ t:.'le government said, 'We are going to bring in a water and sewerag~ tax on ·water and sewerage', I ·•auld say that is at leas~ partially accep~<ilile.

But ltJhat dces a proFerty tax ~1ave to do ·~itb. 'tJater anc sewerage and why am I rr aking this distinction betw·een property tax and water and sewerage~ Well, I will point out tc you vert briefl:o as the regulation now stanC:S, a corr.r.:uni ty t;·E!t is serviced by ...-ater or sewerage or ·..vater and sewerage more than fifty per cent is liable for i?ro11erty tax. :<ow, in rr:y aistrict I have one large conT.luni ty t;1at is a.:oouc fifty per cent serviced by an undergroUild t);pe of water and sew·erage, that is to sa:r tne infra~tructure type of r,..;·ater an C. :5eY-crage 1 a:.1d I ~lave another communi tlo· th21.t is servic-=G. ';:;y artes~an ... ;ell \'lo"~'"lici1 is not in t::..e technicc..l, in t:1e infrastructure .sense.: 391.9

Wca::-.o~r 3, 1979 'I'a;:e ~:o . 1559 :;; • .; - 2 : J?.. R. MC:v!U:S: underground.

Altho ugh it is lJ.terall~·, .:..=:: is not ~or terms of ce:fl.:uuon . tlow1 the commur.ity cnat :~as the unce rgrounc =::yf.e of -.;ac.er and sewe rage , all of cne ;::iti::ens in :::-.at COI!=i.t:r· ·.all pay property ca.x not t:ne fifty pt!r cen't. :..'lac lS or u acou~ co ;;e servic ·eC uut. all of ti1em . . .:o~ ii :::~e go\·e::rur.etlt o= t:1is ?rovince via e."e puppet mirU.sc.er can say to ~ that ~:he fifty pe r cent who are ooc. serviced by water .lnci se...-erac;e wil l =e '..J:.c.:1in t•.;o 01:' c..'tree yea rs , then I ~ ill ac~ept it . 1he!1 I .... :.11 say , 'Fine, your ~roperc.y tax is ~·el:A. taken and well int:endeci' .

But t.'lere is rio ·,;ay t."''ac I am goL'lg to sl:an.i u;,; ir. t.hl.s !louse and sc.pporc. t.\Us type of ~laqrant , cova r Cly al:.us~ o! ::be cemoc :::-atic rights o; ::~y consticuents · .. hen ten :·ea rs fror. r.<J"' t.'1ey still ~all not have • .• ·ater anci 3ewerage becausa chey happened to vote Liberal at an election. No way, Mr . Cl1airman, :::Us 3 -.11 ...-ill never pass in this !;ou,se ·.;ith w'f s;;pport . '. nis Clause anc! the amen<in-'lnt. to 1t "'il l C.e 3920

uecember 3, 1979 Tape 1560 EC - l :1P.. R. MOORES: supported fully by me because of ~~is simple compassionate, human response to my constituents. Now, I have another community - they hava a few artesian wells down there and they, through my help and the help of the federal~~. happened to extend the artesian wells by Canada Works grants and now this mealy-mouthed Premier and his government are going to say, regardless of who gave them to you, if you are 50 per cent serviced, you will pay ~~e real property tax. •';R. l'<"'EARY: That is right • • ~. R.

MOORES: Now1 there are·two clear, concise, understandable examples. If there is anybody in the media i..istening today, if they have any kind of intellectual, journalistic ability to see what this government is doing, then they will report to the citizenry of ~~is Province that this is the most disgusting, irrespon~ible piece of legislation, the Judas Iscariot clause, Clause 110 of Bill No. 58. And any member in this House on the Opposition side or ~'le go'l.-ernment side who would so shamefully and shamelessly get up and support it whether he is the hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. H.

Young) or Trinity :-lorth (Nr. Brett) or anywhere else - get up and support this hollow, simpleton type of backdoor mythology of 1.mposing, arbitrarily. real property tax in this Province, they just have no =derstanding, :10 sense of responsibility towards the people who elected them. And I suggest, Mr.:bairman, that the responsibility for educating the people as to what is going on in this House - my colleague from r..aPoile (l-l:r.

Neary) says that they should put the television cameras in here. ;fuy shoulC. we do that '"hen the media that we now have here covering this House have so poorly publicized what is going on wi ~"- t..'lis pie'ce of legislation'?

I have town councils and every member of this Opposition has town councils who are phoning and saying, 'Bays, keep it up, because it is only now that we are starti~g to see the light.' And t:;"ley '"auld not be seeing it except that '"e on t..'lis side of ~'le House are responsibly, per!'laps sor..e•.,hat <ieliberataly, stalli:1g ~he ieba~£ on this bill so that t~e ~eople in ~~is ~~evince can ~ecom~

Jece~her 3, l979 Tape 1560 EC - 2 A..'l nON. ~!EMBER: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: Not the media, not the newspapers, not the bleeding hear~s up in ~~e gallery, but some people here on the Op~os~:i~n side who. are holding it up because we want the people of this Province to know what is going on.

And I want to be able to say when I go to Carbor.ear or Victoria or Salmon Cove, that I stead up in this House and I told the government and I told the media, gave ~~em two concise e:.:amples of how you are going to ;,e rogued out of your -~ation money and deprived of your rights as citize11s, and nobody bothered to report it. My conscience is·clear. I have done my duty as an elected membe:::-. ~IR. WARREN: Anci you •ill get re-electec! MR. R. MOORES: I will get re-elected. There has not been a man born in this Province yet who could - And my friend, my colleague from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), so-called by the government members, 'the voice crying in ~,e wilderness' -well, if he is crying in the wilderness, ~,e wilderness is pretty populated these last few weeks, because just isolated examples in my own experiences, a large number, more than a dozen, 'N'hich is a large number of people to come to you on any one issue over a p~riod of one or two visits to your district - a large number of ther:~ have come to me and said that "hat the member for LaPoile is saying is true, tl~at we are being bandied about; we were betrayed; we were promised no taxes and we are getting

December 3, 1979 Tape 1561 PK - 1 Mr. Moores: and the town conncils; I had one town council elected in my district just three or four months ago, and they are now at this present momen~ trying to arrange a meeting with the Minister's officials to have it explained to them, the complexities of this bill ~~d the ramifications of it. Now1 the official who was called said, "Boy, look , you know, it is going to be five years before certain sections of this Act are going to be implemented.

And there are 309 councils and we just do not have the time to deal with you.• He said, "I do not have the time to drive to Salmon Cove and meet with the Town Council and explain the ramifications of this bill". So they called their M.H.A. and they said, "If we cannot go to the officials of the minister's department then who can we go to? We called a man and tried to arrange a meeting and he just brushed us off". He said, "You take care of it the best way you can ...

Now, to clear myself in this I did not call that official, I wrote him, and he should be in receipt of the letter through the internal distribution that we have in this building here. He should be in receipt of that letter. And the letter very simply states that on behalf of my Town Council I would like him to go and meet with them, and explain to them,because it was a reasonable request they made 1 but more impcrtantly it is the clear responsibility of the government 1 represented by the officials of the Department of Municipal Affairs 1 to do whatever is necessary to see that these town councils are educated.

Now the minister got up here, well what rubbish, and what trash we have to listen to in this House. It is a wonder, you know, that we come here at all. The minister got up and he said, "There has been overwhelming consultation with the town councils in this P::ovince" . MR. HOLLETT: (Inaudible) I have not found it yet. 3923

Jecember 3, 1379 ':ape 1561 !?!<. - 2 ;.;r. ~loores ; we have had s~ssions and briexs and ~eet~gs ~,d ~ore meecings wi~h town council s, w~th mayors and municipalities, federations and so on". ':'CJU know, t.'1e only thing 1:.."1at I can conclude from what c.'1e :n.uu.ster i .s saying is that perhaps •dthout his knowing it, he misled thls sousa . ?erhaps h~ did not really have a g rasp on wbat he was saying, the legicirr~cy of what he was saying. !?erl'.aps he 1.nnocently !Tis lead tnis House, when he said, "There was over~hebning consultation", because there clearly ~s not, and there clearly has ~ot been anything near reasonable consultation with the local governm~~cs chat will be a:fected by chis A~c.

And that , Mr. Chairman , in itself perhap s, is che greatest sham e of this piece of legislati:>n. I have been sayin g = my witial comments on c!'le principle of the bill, second reading, and I have co repeat ic now, t.~at if there is no o~her reason at all ~hy this oppos1~ion or why any mecber of this Rouse should stand against t:te bul, if c.here is no other reason at:. all, chen the reason should be that they are crying co do something thrcugh the backdoor rha~ they can nor, will :~or, or shoul.d :1ot do through c."'e ::ront doo::.

They will not come 1nco t:.his House and say, here is a bill on regional government:., c.'1ey w~ll nor come into this House and say, here is a ~ill, an .\ct co incorporate ?r:>.,ert:.y c.a..xes in municipalities in this !?rovince- .:IN !iON • 11E.'lB aR : (Inaudible) . MR. MOORES: aJ1d the fact clo.at they ~l! not do t:ba c ~"' itself re!leccs that something is wrong. 392 1

Jece..'Tiber 3, 1979 Tape No. 1562 SD - 1 :·~"'· R. MOORES: If a government or a department or its minister believes that ~hat he is doing is right, right for himself, nis government and the people of ~~e Provine~ then why should he go under to table( why should he go through ~~e backdoorr Why not bring io: in head on where a few fellows :!.ike myself and a 'loice crying in ~'le lviluerness can get a go at you. But we are having a good time of it now, Mr.

Chairman 0 I have spoken my twenty-fi<e minutes and I nave cried in the wilderness and there have been a number of otners on t.1.e Opposition side 'N'ho have cried in the wilderness and if we are crying in the wilderness, if all we are doing is recording this in liansard,then the responsibility lies clearly with two other aspects of society, the government and the media.

The governnLent :traditionally and the ~ecia traditionally are held res?onsible under these rights that d1ey so often wish to protect of educating, inforning,promulgating ·...;ha tever goes on in t.'-lis iiouse ar.d makJ.ng sure that: the ordir..ary :re,..vfo':Jndlander not only l1ears of what. is going on =ut unders~ands and digests it .. I thank you, :·~r. Cr~airrn.an. liear, hear 4 :·IR. c:-:.'1.!!\!!A~l: (:·!r. Baird) The han. ~~~ber for LaPoile. :1R. S. :<EJ'8Y: '1r.

C!"- ~i=r:1an, i:\~( ~on. collear;ue f~ol71 Carbor,ear w~lo ju.st C.acle a rr.ost eloque1~.t s;.eech, Sir, one of ~'-1-2 2.x.:elle:~ t. - ...;.:;..cE:llent, u.~.1e. of tr~e ~es ~ s;e.ecL . .:.:s I have heard in this House for a long time, very colourful, his phraseology ·.-1J.ll eit.:,.er vote ~or t:U.s a:nendr.Ler.~1:, · . ..:ill a..,.-r.er.d t.~e l~sislation or just r~m i:: through in its entirety 1and :1e :1as pious hopes r.;~2t t~lE :y<:s and ears c£ the :_:,earJle of t_~is Pra~Jincc, Uf'l a~Jer ~1is 5:lc.Jl-..er/ ·.vill re~ort. acc-c.rately the effects :Jf t:t.i..; ~ill 3.S outli:leci "=:.·i t:~e 39ZS

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1562 SD-2 !1R. S. NE.l\.RY: himself. What is 'Moores' saying down there? What is that fellow Thoms up to now? What time are we going to get out of h~r~? That, now. is in between toddies of rum they are saying all of this. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Ah, Mr. - not all of them, not all of them. In between toddies, yes, in between toddies. As far as I am con~erned there should be no rum in the press gallery on this floor. If 'lie are going to have it, open her up, open the bar up and let us have a bar on the ninth floor or on the tenth floor. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Baird) Order, please! Under

Section 299, "Relevancy, while it is not easy to define, the member is usually given the benefit of the doubt". I would ask the han. member to confine his remarks to 109 and 110. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, Sir, we are talking about the reporting of both of these sec ·tions. The impact, and the han. gentleman looks at me, I sc.y, there should be no rum unless it is legal. Unless we put a licence in, put a bar in as they have in the Province of Quebec in the Legislature, there should be no booze on the ninth or tenth floor of this buildi:~g and anybody who does not like that, they can lump it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me read on,

Section 110, let me -show the House the impact of

Section 110 . AN HON. MEMBER: It is repetition. MR. S. NEARY: No, it is not repetition, I have not read this part of

Section 110 yet. I only read one part, I only read

part l of

Section 110 but have the media, in between their little teddies, have they read

part 2 of

Section 110? Just listen to this, Mr. Chairman. "Where a council applies for provincial assistance towards the construction of a water system, sewerage system or water and sewerage system, it shal '- agree to impose t..IJ.e real property tax pursuant to

Section 109 to take effect when assessments are completed". Now, Mr. Chai~an, is that not what I said earlier when I was en my feet, that the little towns and communities who do not now have

::>ecembe!" 3, 1979 Tape 1563 EC - 1 ~!R. :<EARY: Hater and sewerage who were not able to avail of ~~e bonanza of the last thirty years when government was giving grants and assisting towns and settlements, especially in ~~e rural ~arts of ~~s Province, to get rid of the outdoor privies 1 :~ow when they come in to governmem:, Little Harbour C:ast, Harbour Hain, Conception Harbour, when they come in to the government now, when my hen. friend leads a delegation from Harbour Main, from Conception Harbour, from Avondale, to the Jl.i.nister of Hunicipal Affairs (Mr. N.

Windsor) an.d ~e says' · 'We want Avondale and we want Harbour :•lain and we want I.ittle !iarbour ~ast and we want all ~'le other small communi ties in our district to get the same treatment as any other community in ;lewfoundland has gotten for the last thirty years; we want water and sewerage, we want the modern facilities, >~ha't: does the hen. gentleman from Harbour Main - Bell Island (1-lr. Doyle) think t..'J.e answer will be from the minister? What will the a~swer be?

Eere is what the answer will be: They are not going to get their community brought up to standard ~'"le same as every o~fJ.er community in ,Jewfoundland that has received the benefit· so far, as a result of Confede.::-ation; =ey are not going to get ~'te same treatment.

Here is what ~'"ley are going to get from a Scrooge government when a council applies for provincial assistance towards the construction of a water and sewerage s~;stem, ·it shall agree to impose the real property tax - that is the ans·..ter they will get from the :·tinister of Municipal Affairs. rne minister did not have ~'le courage to tell ~fJ.e mayors and councillors eyeball to eyeball in his office, face to face - did not have ~'le courage to say, 'Look, this government has adopted a polic-t, we have adopted a policy in this department that if Y''u ·.~ant ·.rater and sewerage you i1ave to gc and charge the people the proper't:y tax, did not have ~~e courage to do that, thought he would sneak a bill through the Legislature to do it.

If the hen. gentleman wanted to use the big stick, to hold this over the heads of the municipalities, i1e should have gone ahead and done it down in his affice. But he did not have ~'1e courage to do that, he is trjing to sue.'<. in every member of the Legislature. And the real property tax, it :;oes on to say, has to be unifonn t:'l.roughout ~'"le town. 3927

~ece~ber 3, 1979 Tape 1563 r:c - 2 v:hat. about. rrry friend from !:.abraco:: C!.t.y - 'o'/abush whe=e t..'le government play ed no

part i.n putt.i:1g i:1 water and sewerage?

If these people C.o~o:n tilere ever ge t. ciemocratic governmen t - and t.hey should nave. it:. by :lOW - if t..1ey ever get: it:, rrry hon . :nend had !:lett:er b~ prepai::ad to face t..'le people down there and say, 'As scon as you get an elect:e.d c:own council, you are going ~o get: t..~e p roperty tax . ' They already hav~ i ::. :·!P.. :>lEARY: Oh, they have it:. already . '!'hey have had an assessment: done and l:hey have t:.he pro?erty t:.ax. ::.ow much pro?erty t:.ax do they pay? ~ :iON . ~1.SER: At thE: present: tin!e, I eo not ~<1ve :.~e i:lfc::nation, but I ~~~ill get it for t.i-te hon. ~:r.ber .

Well , t.'1c b:m . ;Jentleman hac bet:~:e.r be prep areci t:.o face t..'le peop le i:1 W<Wush and !.al:.rador C:i ey anci say ~:hat you are qoing to have to pay for a wace~ and sewer ~ys~em :ha~ was ?U~ t:.."lere by IOC anci by t..'1e iiabush 11i~i;-.g O::mpany . The Sam2 '-'~ i:l 3uchans 1 if my hon. friend from aua.'lans .,as here. lihat about. :S.ue Vert.e'?

Who put: in t..'la~: syst:em cown t..'lere? ;.~ subsca.:1tJ.al input f:::om c.,e compa.!ly. :•!.R. ~"t:ARY: A subs t..lnt.ial :..nput: from t:..~e co~pany . (inaudiJ::la ) ~he Feeeral NR. :<::Ai<.Y: ;)h, t.'l.e FeC.eral. ;,oys . :.'he :eeeral C-¢vernoen t: put L"'l ;:.'le '"ater syst:e:ns in .:l~~ovik, :p, .)OO, OO::>. So :1o·.~ 3928

~cerncer 3, l9i9 Tape i'io. 1564 ~. <;. iH.ARY : con~unity is serviced, paid for out of Canadian taxpayers money under an agreement bet..,·een the Government of Canada a."ld t.'le Provincial Government whereby the Government of Canada pays ninety per cent of ~1e cost in communities that are native,where you i1ave a native population. ~n you have ninety per cen~ Indian and ninety per cent Eskimo, the Government of Canada pays ninety per cent of the cost. ~nd so now after this Bill is passed the people of Makkovi~ MR. WARREN: Indians ninety per cent NR.

S • :II:ARY : t·linety per cent, si:~ty-six and t.-o- thirds where you have an Eskimo population. MR: WARREN; N~nety (I~audible) :!R. S . NEARY: That is rignt, Sir, my rr.emary is not t:OO cad. I signeci the last agreement I believe with the Govenur.ent of Canada. ;:' riOd. ~U:.HBl:.R: 'Ihe last one? c•lR. S. NURY: Yes, t;le last one I think I signed it . I an• not sure now . i-11 hON. 1-:!EI':Bl:.R: Has it got to be siqned? :!R. :;, .. H:.ARY: has it got to be sisned? i~o, Sir. I do\JQ~ if there has been a change made in it. AR. 'l'HOI1S: Bob Cole's did not i1ave to be signed "7cry year. l!R. S.

NLARY: l;o, that is right . So, ~r. d1airman, ycu can see the Jis­ crirr.ination tnat "ill creep into ~his wnere j"OU have communi ties tl1ut are sezviced uiore t..i'lan fifty per cent '"'AI·it.Ll water and se'J..·erase t.1at t..:u.s governr.,ent ci<l not have one thing to &:> with, noti1ing! l<otning to cio wit:h it at all! \·/abash and LabraC.or City are good examples of t:.'lat.

I Deli eve, if nLy i1on .. frieno t; .. ·a$ here from Gd.nC..er - although· 'Cney ,,ave ~he ,::roperty ~ax in Gancier but tnis government had nothing to de ·.-wit.11. putting water and 3e'.-lerage i:t Ganu.er, as a matt:r of fact, Ga.ru::ar ,;as ;:.uilt :Cy t..'le Goverm;,em:: of Canada, tile Cepartr.;ent of 'l'ransj?ort. A.n.C: !laypy 'lalle:l - Goose :::a:.t.

Decen:J..ler 3, 1979 1 !R. S . NEARY : :.:R. G. WARREN: :·lR. S. NJ:.ARY: F lesan tville . l·l.R. S • NEARY : Tape No. 1564 ;:;w - 2 l~d Happy Valley - Goose Bay. And half of it is coming from Ule (Inaudible) That is right. And Stephenville . ~:<i Bell Island? Ho. >io, Hr. Chairman, this Act cannot be roaC:e uniform. The '"hole matter should have been left up to tne Hinister of l•!unicipal Affairs. hll this house should do is pass enabling lec;is­ latim, to enable the minister to do certain t.'-lings and not use the !.ouse.

It is an abuse of ;;>~:er by an arrogant goverrur.ent to bring in this kind of legislation. It is an insult to t.'-le intelligence of men~ers of ~'-lis uouse. ''e said to t.'-le government last year, 'You cannot bring in regional government in that form that you have in that Act. 'J.'hat i1as already :>een voteci on in this Uouse - w!len \lias thd.t .l.n ~·la~i of this :tear? :m.. S • ciEARY : the same :Cill in another f~nn . :1R.S. NEARY: In June. In June. Anc:' six r.1onths later the:z· J:.rin<; in It was Nay. :'lay. Oh, chat LS .:ight in June ·.;e were on Ayatollah That is rignt. So, ,•lr.

Cllal.rman, I say tnat the only I< at blat I can see mat we can conve y t~le r.:essage of the im;oac t of Clause 109 and 110 to the people of b1is Province is to allow the televisior. carr.eras and the microphones to be croug!1t in on t.ne floor of bus house. 'lhe on11· way, Sir! The han. gent:lemen are afr<J.iU. to do cnat, taey are afraid. of tneir shameful attendance records and taE<y are asnareeo of ci1eir lack of participation in d€Lates in tnis ciebate. 'Tile f!'lerr.oe:::- for ?'ortune - nenr.itiige (Mr.

Steliiart) 1 I am ~ure his constitutents and accorciing to the telegrams that I ;,ave seen there 1 ni,; consti tuants are ver.f cor.cerne:i.. I have not had ~~y \inaudible) They de not e•Jen !'new you. 3930

;:ecEm:Cer 3, 1~79 rape :.o. l5o4 . · · ~ -..... ,. ;). ·.·.ne hon . genr.ler .:an !las noe got cny :tet , :.·ell juse imagine! The non . geneleman has not: spoken ln =is ! -... ill sene ~i .scciress • Con' . 1-:R. S . NEAR1: ! coulo read one for ~e hon . gentleman from :lis <ilst:rl.ct but ! ·.:ill net ~ ._.il l lec.,·e; t11at :or somci:oc1 · else. You askec! ~e people to sene tel~grams. :~. S. ~Y: I see, we asked ~,e people to sene telegr~s. \\ell , t:hat is more than the !!on . ~entlerr.an o!id , the ?\on . g~ntie man has not: askec his const:ituem ;s t.nei::- opinion on havl.ng t::-le prope!:"l:y tax forced on t!lero . 3~3 1

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1565 GH-1 MR. NEARY: No wonder, 11r. Chairman, no wonder the hen. gentleman will not- his House Leader, the hen. gentleman's House Leader, told the media a week ago, "No committe, no television cameras, no microphones on the floor of the House, we are against it". No wonder they are against it, no wonder the hen. gentleman is against it. The hen. gentleman will not get up and speak in protest of this piece of dictatorial legislation that the government is supporting, is ramming through this House a couple of weeks before Christmas.

No wonder the hen. gentleman will not kick up a fuss and say let us have the television cameras. No wonder the member. for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) will not get up and say, "Yes, bring in the television cameras and let the people see me, what I have to say abo,lt

Section 109 and 110 of this bill". A shameful piece of legislation! The member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), I do not think, has any- oh, he might, there might be a few- St. John's North, does that still include a part of the rural parts of St. John's? That is all City Council now? 11R. CARTER: (Inaudible) boundaries. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) boundaries. MR. NEARY: No, I do not. Since the government gerrymandered the Election Act, I do not remember the boundaries, but I do not think the hon. gentleman has any of the rural parts of - Mr. Chairman, what about the member for St. George's (Mr.

Dawe) who seems to be in very great difficulty in his district these days, very great difficulty? What are the hon. gentleman's constituents- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: - yes, what are the han. gentleman's constituents going to say when the hon. gentleman sat there in complete silence and ignorance as the bill 'tlas being debated to impose the property tax on communities in the district of St.

George's that do not have water and sewerage: The hon. gentleman is sitting down there in the PYemier's office, so his constituents tell me, completely oblivious to what is going on in the world, in a trance, does not

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1565 GH-2 MR. NEARY: pay any attention to his district, could not care less if the government he is supporting - as long as he gets his extra income, an extra little bit of income, gets his appointment, could not care less about this dictatorial bill, could not care less what his colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor), does to the people in his district. As long as the thirty pieces of silver keep 9ouring in, the han. gentleman will sit there like a mute in silence and say nothing. No wonder St. George's voted Liberal in the Federal election, is it any wonde~?

They have not seen or heard tell of the han. gentleman since he got elected, and they are waiting now to hear, waiting with bated breath, to hear what the han. gentleman has to say about

Section 109 and 110 of this bill. Will the han. gentleman let his constituents down? lUI HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: :-IR. NEARY: (Inaudible). Pardon? (Inaudible). Is that the only commun.ity in the han . gentleman's district, Stephenville Crossing? "Oh, do not go talking", says the han. member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett). MR. CARTER: MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) !'.R. CARTER: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Point of order. Mr. Chairman, I wonder would you enforce rule 5l(

b) of our Standing Orders? AN HON. MEMBER: Cite it. MR. CARTER: I will cite it, I will read it. ''Mr. Speaker or the Chairman, after having called the attention of the House or the Committee to the conduct of a member who persists in irrelevance or needless repetition, may direct him to discontinue his speech. If the member continues to speak, Mr. Speaker may name him or, if in Committee, the Chairman shall report him to the House:' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

~ecember 3, 1979 1'ape ~o. 1565 Gl!- 3 ~. CH.t\I:Rlo\AN: (Baird) Thank :rou. \~i th ::-egard to t.'le point of order , I would still like ~o go back to 299 on relevancy. While it is not easy to de fine , I would again remind the member for Lapoile (Mr . Neary l :o keep on 109 and 1~0, please. SOME nON. ~ERS: ~. m:ARY: :tear, hear! The hon . gentleman should go out and play with his little flag and go out and learn the rules of the House, that might be a good idea . ' Every council or whare a council applies for provlncial assistance towards the con~ucti9n of water and sewerage' ­ :~ow, what does that mean, :-tr.

C!lauman , what does .:.e mean? I t means chat eve=Y comcunity in Newfoundland, 393.1

Dece~ber 3, 1979 Tape No. 1566 RAl ~IR. S. NEARY: big or small,every community dm·m in Fortune Bay, every community out in the district of Kil.b.:id~ 1 is there any ~~ere ~~at do not have - and I beleive there are some - every community down in Ferryland district that eo not have water and sewage and every community out in the district of St. Georges, wh~re they think the member is after vanishing into thin air, will have to pay the Property Tax. Every community down in Placentia Ea~ if they do not already have the Prorerty T2X and I so not think they do, All HON .ME.t-'.BER: (Inaudib l e . ) !o!R. S. NEARY: No.

They are going toJ that is right If the hen. member comes in to see the minister, ~~e minister says to his delegation , 1 Yes 1 if you want your water and se,~erageJ if you want t~e same treatment that every o~~~r town and community in Newfoundland got in the last thirty years ~~en you are going to have to pay the Property Tax.And in Bay of Islands you will have the sa~e thing. The champiou of ~mocracy, the great reformer ~he gets ~p and talks about everything in this honourable HousP 1 where is he now when his people need him?

Where is he when they need him to talk about and come to their rescue and protect ~~em against this dictatorial government ? wbere ~s he? SOME HON. MEMBERS: :•IR. S • NEARY: Oh, oh. Where is the member for Bay of Islands? Let us hear from him now on sections 1~9 and 110 o= this bill. Nhy has the hon. gentleman suddenly gone on retreat? Is he like Khomeir.i? !olR. WOODRC\ol: No, retreat is coming on Cecsmber 24. MR. s. NEARY: The retreat is coming en De,:er.tber 24th, I MR. RIDEOUT: That is when the bill goes through. M..'l.. s. NEARY: That is right, t.'J.at is when the ::ill ···ill go t.~rougt.

It is a ~..,onder Sir, it is a w·cnrler, ~~at ~'J.e hon. gentleman who espouses just about every cause in this Kouse has not gone on a hunger strike SOl'!£ F.ON • !1EMBERS: ~R. S. NEJL"tY': Oh, oh . - beca~,;.se 3935

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1566 RA - 2 ~!R. NEARY: because the scrooge government which he supports is ramming through a piece of legislation ~~at is going to force the Property Tax on his constituents. l'lR. RIDEOUT: down in Municipal Affairs. !ffi. NEARY: It is a wonder he has not taken hostages Well, that is true Sir. You would think the hon, gentleman has such strong views on democratic matter$, democratic issues in ~~is House, that it is a wonder he has not taken all ~~e opposition as hostage in protest of this bill, it is a wonder he has not done it.

But not a word from the hon. gentleman about sections 109 and 110 cf this bill and he will be up tomorrow or the neEt day when he finds out ~ow the people fee] about it, he will be up mealy-mouthed - HR. 'i700DRCW: 1·!R. NEl'.RT: MR. 1-IOODROW: :'JR. NEARY: They have it all ready, they '1ave heard. ot, they have it all ready. 1ou do not know what you are talking about. They have it all ready.

He will be coming in wi~~ a petition just the same Sir, just the same as the hon. gentleman gets up and says " I have a petition here ag3.inst electricity rates and I axr all for it, I am against increases in electricity rates" and then supports the government that does it. How hypocriti~al can you get to surpcrt a government that does it? MP.. WOODR0\'1: I was convinced (inaudible) wait until Wednesday (inaudible) MF. NEARY: \1hat is ':hat song? Alrr.ost Persuadec.

That Should be the hen. gentlemans theme song, Almost Persuaded. ~ben his constituents get on the >Yar path :cow !"le ·,rill come in >-'i th a petition or he will get up and he will give tl,e min_ister a little flick , en the Y".nuckles, or the colleagu~es a littlE! flicl: on the knuckles but where is he now, :~r. Chairman, where is he now '"hen •o~e are del::ating clause 109 and clause 110? AN EON. MEl-lEER: Come out and run against me in the next election - I c1ill show you up. ~low, t.."lere i3 some challer.ge, Sir, there is some cr.allenge. T~at would be like ~aking car~dy fro~ a baby.

Tape !io. !566 ~.:. - 3 S~:=; :!O!l. ~'!3ERS : Ch , oh . ~IR. s . t-IEA.RY: I£ I take on so~r.ebody in the next election on ::..~at sice of t.'le House, it will i::e a oig gu..,, it will not ?::e the small :ry .. I cio :-:oi: c;o lookin g !or rabbits 1 tracks. SC.".E !iOl: ,)!E:-!SE!\S: !'IR, S. :IE~Y : You sen t the tiggest one you ~aci1 you sent t.'le ~ic;c;est gun you ~ac aqai~s~ ~~ C:.e last time and you die ~o~ get verJ far . That is true. ~:R. S . !lEARY: Mr. Chai:'lllan 1 sec::ion 109 and 110. Why does the hen. qentle~an not ge t up and say a !ew words on

section 110 Why has tne non ·geneleman suddenly becol!'.e muee, caved in: 3~Kl7

December 3, 1979 Ta~e 1567 HB - 1 :·!R. :lEARY: I believe, Sir, ~~e hon. gentleman has a contribution to make to this do:bate on behalf of his constituents. Tell me,what does the hon. gentleman -how does he feel about ~~is? \ihere a council applies for provincial assistance towards the construction of 'l •,;ater system, sewerage system, or ·,;ater and sewerage system, it shall agree to impose ~~e real property tax. Does the hon. gentleman feel that that is a form of blackmail? AN HON. YIEMBER: ( Ina•.Jdible) ~!R. NEARY: Oh, I see, it is not. It is perfectly all right. A..'l HON . 1-lEl.ffiER: (Inaudible) :1R.

NEARY: Five minutes left. wnat a shame, what a shame! I am lookl.ng forward, :1r. Chaiman, looking for,;ard to some of ~~e supporters of ~~e gover~ent having the courage, ~~e intestinai fortitude - MR. THCMS: You will never see chat happe:::t. MR. :"lEARY: No, I will never see that happen because - :·io ~~at is true, you ·.rill never see it happen - to g<>t up - I «ould like to see ~~e hon. member for aay of Islands, Fortune Bay, Kilbride, St.

Georges, where they ~~ink the hon. gentleman has done the disappearing act, L~e in­ visil: le member, the member for !:erryland - I would like to see them all get up anci have a few words on this bill, e~pecially Sections 109 and 110.

Or have ~1;.-=~· been directed and ordered "uy the government to ke.:p quiet and say nothin~, we want to get this bill through as fast as we can Christmas is coming. :·hey a.ce getting worse than sor:te of t:he people up in the press gallery. \-lhen will it end? \"/hen will all t."lis debate and t.'-,is :1onsense, this foolish nonsense that is taking place down there, when ~ill it all stop so we can ge:: o•Jt of h ere and go home? It is interferring with our ob1er extra­ curricular activities.

This foolish House of Assenbly and that crowd down t.'1ere on ~'1e floo;r, bunch of jackasses and fools and clo ... ·us, t.'lat is all they are. i.-le a.r: the kings of t~is Province.

December 3, 1979 Tape 1567 :'IB - 2 AN Hu!l'. ME11BER: You are talking about yourself now. )!R. ~AEC: We have t.'le pen in our hand and we can screw them anytime we want to. We can give them favourable publicity or unfa·.rourable blah, blah, blah and who cares, as ::.ong as we do our job( MR. WARREN: h"' HON. MEMBER: i1R. NEARY: As long as they get paid for it. (inaudible) last week If the hon. gentleman wants to make a contribution to t~is debate; Sir, I will gladly take my seat and yiela to the hen. gentleman, and let him have a few words on Sections 109 and 110 of this bill. }lR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) )!R.

THOMS: ":!Che han. member fer Grand Bank 'lr. C.'lairman, I must say I I", ad no· intentions of speaking to t.~is particular amendment. I figured everything t.'lat could be said about it would have been said .. I do not feel too optimistic that the amendment is going to carry. I do not think that is ~oing to happen because even ~'le simpliest amendment, even amendments that are proper and in order, even s~mplier amendments will not carr]. MR. NEARY: Right on, right on. :·lR. 'l'P.OMS : But a comment from my friend from cort=e-Hermitage (1-lr.

Stewart), actually made me get on my feet, •.;hen he said that the people in his district, the towns in his district, the pec~le in ~nglish Harbour East, Terrenceville, St. Bernard's, Bay L'Argent, English Ha~~our West, Boxey, Pool's Cove - Pool's Cove still in the district1 - all these people, they all support this particular piece of legislation, t.'ley are all voting tl:err..selves - if t.:'ley had tb.e opportunity - they . .;ould all vote for a r.mJ.datory property tax, ~e.t is t.'le impression I set from his com.:nent.

If you people ••a.:1t a challen<;8, I will qi<e you a challenge, T do not have a cornm~~ity of any size, s~ape ar form in my district at -:...1.e present time wit...~ a 2Jroperty tax .. If t.'le ninister wants to find out how popular this is I will accept it. I will resiqn from t!1is House today and in a :0~·-election I •.;ill ta;...e on

Tape 1567 :·!::t. Tt!OMS: ::he ~linisc;er of : tunicipal Affairs Hear, hear; !·f:!.. ThONS: '!ou ,.·am: to prove ~ac; ;rou ·;~enc; oue ar.c you consul~cl evecy I:O""'n council i:-~ connection •<~i th e..':u.s Clat:.ter . l'..R. CARTt:R: Zvery one . :<~...~ . 't"d0:-15: : am caJ.;<i:-~g to ~'le Mi.'liseer of P~l!.c (iorl<s . r would :toe run in St . .John's Noro, ti\ey can nave you . They are welcome c;o you. The ~rnber knows (i :-~au~le ) ~tR . 'niO:-iS : Y.r. Speaker, he J.S the one person :-eciting e..'te o:-cle:-s , I have a ngilt to be he-ard in si~enc~, '.IOUld you silence him? :u~. 'n!O~:s : ~here is noc; one town or C?mm~'lic;y in 3940

December 3, 1979 Tape No. 1568 IB-1 NR. THOMS: Now under this particular dictatorial piece of legislation they have no choice. They did not have a vote. As a matter of fact 1 they never heard of the act, they never realized it, that they were getting compulsory property tax. It is no good for the Minister of Municipal Affairs to stand on his feet in this House and say they were consulted. They were not consulted. None of the town councils were consulted, none of them. And for the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr.

Stewart) to make a comment in this House that his constituents support this bill is a lot of tommyrot. MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: MR. NElLQ.Y: MR. THOMS: What a joke! Garbage! What a joke! You know and I know that they have not been given an opportunity to disagree or agree with this act brought in, as my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says and my friend from Carbonear (~I. Moores) under the disguise of

An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration Cf Municipal Government In The Province. It should be called

an act to force ~,e people of this Province to pay property taxes. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: That is what it should be called. Have the ~~ption - so why does the minister not have the gumption to bring in

an act imposing property taxes instead of trying to hide it in this particular bill, bill 58. If he thinks it is such a popular thing to do, ~f any of you think it is a popular thing to do,come down to Grand Bank, call a by-election there. We will fight the by-election on this one issue, this issue only - 11R. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. THm!S: and nothing else, and we will see who wins. That will tell the tale, how popular this particular act is. MR. CARTER: You would not be allowed to run. MR. THOMS: Why would I not be allowed to run? I would certainly have more right to run in this Province than the member 3S4:1

December 3, 19i9 Tape No. 1568 I?.-2 :·lR. T!:!OHS: you got elected a few days ago. MR. BARRY: Why? MR. NEARY: Because he has been living in Halifax for four or five years. MR. THOMS: I do not know if it is too late to challenge the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy or not. I doubt if he was ordinarily resident in this Province six months before his last election. Right! !tigh;:. on·! Do not be sc foolish. MR. THOI>'.S: Maybe we missed - MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : Order, please ! MR • T!iQid.S : - our opportunity there . Maybe we missed our op~rcunity there . MR.

BARRY: Do a lit<--le legal rese~ch for a change for God ' s Sa.'<:e. ::tead the cases che!"e ha ve ~een. Read tb.e Devine case . No, •he Dev ne case is comple.:ely di.f.ferent. I happen to be very familiar with that one. That one is completely different. I~ che government will pay me eishty dolla=s an hour I ·,.;auld be o'!ll'f' too happy to do a litr.le research . ~- ~EAR'/: No, S4Kty and save money, save che ;over:unen-,: etNenty . ~!R - Tt.!ONS: sixty a.'ld save t•.;enty . That is ::he ne•,.; mach.

They do not need me but I will give them my services for sixcy doLlars instead o! e~qht:y and they save to.;en':y dollars. MR . BARRY: l'he.y are saving a lot: more now. MR . NEARY: That is right:, they do not: neec t:he hon . qentleman . :·!R. BARRY: 'lie are ;;aving about five ' olla.rs an hour :lOW.

December 3, 1.979 Tape No. 1568 IB-3 The non. member for G=and Bank has che right to ~e heard in s~lence . :-m. '!'l:!O.'IS: Thank you , :1r. Chainnan. Mr . ChaL"1!1aal, seccions 109 and 110 a re li.<e a lot: of ocher seccions in this particular act . There are sections chat: are ver~· impcrt&nc co the people of chis Provi."lce, chey affect: the people of chis !?rovince . And if it means tr~t we gee up here and repeat: ourselves and of!end rule 51, ~t my ==ie:ld from St. John's ~crth (Mr . J . Carter) quot:ed 1 then (i.,audible) it, :et us gee up and let us repeat ourselv'i!s.

If that is !:he only •.-ay •.-e can get across U> che .,eople of Newfoundland what: chis ac-:: is doing, what it is g o ing to do co chem , if chat is the only way •,;e can do 1t: 1 then by God lee us do it . )o!R. NEARY: P.ight on. MR. Tl:!O!-IS: aut chere are other sections JUSt as onerous. I !1ave spoken on a numl:>ar o f them . I think the condicions under which t!'le councillors !>.ave to ace in ttus Province, the one that I have already spoken on, is unfair. !t may not be q\!it:e as unfair as tlus, trying to snea k propercy caxes in the backdoor.

Now, the mi."lister bas saJ.d chat he has advised al! che councillors and so o n. That: too is a lot of tommyrot. Be has not a<:lvised them . T! ~er e :nay iave been a few attending i."l Gande r who heard the ~ister's speec~ wt.en the minister 1:alked abou~ ?roperey caxes. What: he sa.;.d abcut: them ! do .:~ot know, I · .. as not there but I doUbt very much - HR. l:iOLU:T'I': Be did no~ leave the impressicn w i ~~ ~nybody chat they were going co be forced :hrough . /'!..~. TSOI-!S: :e d~ not: leave 39·!3

Jec~~er 3, _979 Tape .lo . 1569 s~ - 1 :·!R. ::. • T:-;'O:·!S: frienc says,that ~~ey ~ere going to be forced co co it1 ~Jt L~e ~•?ression was tr~c it ~ould ~ave been volunca.-y . aut no~~i~g , no~~ing :.."l.is ;9ve~ent is Going .sae..rns to !.e.ave any volun~arism Li i~ a:: .all_, ic is e•.rer:tt:Ur.g i::eir.<;J rammed C.o~o.•n their throats . and this 5ec~ion 110 is a prime example of ~,ac. to s-..:ppon: tr.is amendment ~ :·tr . C:tairman , : a.o cerc.aioly goi.~g I ai'\ onlJ too :'lapJ?:t to su~nort the ~.e~Cmenc and t~ere may be ot~er arne~Cmer.~s ~o :his ?ar ~ic~lar ac~ ~efore ~e gee it ~oug~ .

It Co~ r.oc ~ocher ~ me, I ~~quite ~appy :o stay here until Christmas Eve o r New Year ' s Sve 1 for t~t oacter 1 co .O:::ebate a piece of l agisl3.tion li!'e ti:.ts, ~specially s1nce l can ~it =:er~ secure in t_!le knowledge of k:oO\·ting =hae half t!le ~:owC. o.r. :.he o~r.er ~ide do :lot support: ic eith er but are forced to suppo r t l!: . .u·e ::orced ::o sit in their seacs :route - - .ar.ci coe c .. .a :-ar~-y line , o i c~ ur.J\. - *ic:arto sv·c , _ er:joy ~1ta ~o..ls~ o : ; . .sse:rJ:l:i , part:icularly i.~ihen I =~ o;'\.!'t - ? on ::'."f .=~e.t .;....,d ar;~e agai:1st a pie ce of .:.e;:is~tlti:>n :- .:~ ::o~ . ;.:_ ;;.::e c ist.=::.c~ of 3re.n" Sar.k .;.:-.'- : "' could .have a lot oi fun the

J~cember 3, 1979 Tape "o. 1563 S:J - 2 That is, i= ~e has got the gumption to tak~ a ci1alle:1ge suci1 as t.'J.at. MR. NEARY: ;.~a. L. Th..l;JS: smlE ci0:-1. :1E:·3ERS : .·lR. C}'-.'U"'·lrl!.'\1: (~tr. 3aird) anU Housi~g. :!F.. :<. \II..::;::s OR: A ,ood challenge, a good challenge. I uoubt if he d0es. near, hear. The han. :·linister uf :1unicipal Affair:; ar. Chairman, one sor.~etirnes ~esitates tc respond to this sort o£ diatribe we have been subjected to t.~is afternoon so I think it is imperative