Manitoba Hansard — 19 June 1978 (Sitting 66A, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-66a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 19, 1978 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable members attention to the gallery on the right where we have 8 students of Grade 12 standing from Sageen School under the direction of Miss Janet Savage. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . .

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) introduced Bill No. 62,

An Act to amend The Rent Stabilization Act. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris) introduced Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act. (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor .) HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel) on behalf of the Honourable Attorney-General, introduced Bill No. 65,

An Act to amend The Human Rights Act (2). HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 66,

An Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur) introduced Bill No. 67,

An Act to amend The Farm Lands Protection Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: - T-he Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister. Mr.

Speaker, would the Honourable the First Minister consider the residents of Tyndall Park to be in a special category with regard to the receipt of compensation for flooding in their basements in view of the fact that they entered a new development and because of negligence on the part of the engineers the storm sewers are not sufficient to take the water that goes into that area when there is a storm so that these people have been flooded, I believe, three times in the last year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, we are, of course, aware of the problem that is faced in basement flooding, not only in Tyndall Park but in other scattered areas of the greater Winnipeg area, and the letter that was delivered by the Minister of Urban Affairs to the Mayor of Winnipeg last Friday dealt with the application the City of Winnipeg had made to the province some time ago with respect to provincial assistance in that flooding, and the answer that was given was in the negative. I would suggest with respect to the

preamble that my honourable friend has given to the question, that if in fact, as he alleges, there is negligence, he being a lawyer of some repute, that he could certainly advise the residents of Tyndall Park as to what other remedies might conceivably be 3869

Monday, June 19, 1978 to them . But in any case, their submissions and so on must be addressed, as he would appreciate , in the first instance and always to the City of Winnipeg . Any arrangements that the City of Winnipeg may make with other jurisdictions , be it the province or the federal government, of course, would be subsidiary and a different matter altogether. But primarily, as between the residents and the municipal corporation which serves them, there can be no doubt as to where they must look in the first instance. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a supplementary to the First Minister.

Would the Minister say that the province's reply is based in part on the fact that the citizens have an alternative remedy against the city, which has in the past been a reason for refusing provincial participation? Would the Minister say that, in part, the province 's reply is based on the fact there may be an alternative remedy at law to the citizens in Tyndall Park? MR. LYON: No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn 't want to answer that question either categorically or otherwise because my honourable friend is seeking a legal opinion . I don 't think I can give any more useful response than that. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, is the cutoff in funds from the community school at Shaughnessy in the north-west portion of Winnipeg, whereby there was a Day Care Program - will the funds cut off from that program be used by the government for the purpose of giving public taxpayers' money to assist people who wish to send their children to private schools based on ethnic divisions or private schools based on the teaching of ideological doctrine . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I would have to take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I wanted to address a question to the Minister of Education relating to the Winnipeg Centre Project which he undertook to investigate and to try and reassure the students that the program will be ongoing. Can he indicate to us what is the present situation and what efforts has he made to ensure that students are more aware of the program and its plans? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I have been endeavouring for some time to reassure the Member for St. Johns that this matter is being taken care of. I spoke as recently as Friday to the Director of the projects and asked him to contact the students concerned and make sure that any particular apprehensions that they might have would be removed. That was, of course, on Friday; whether that has been achieved at this date I would have some difficulty in saying. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I want to assure the Minister that it's not important for him to reassure me.

It is much more important to reassure the students who are affected very seriously by the plans, or the lack of plans. Can he indicate whethe r or not the agreement which has been outstanding for quite a while has been signed, as between the University of Manitoba and the University of Brandon? MR. COSENS: The particular agreement in question is very close to being signed, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister. I believe it was close to being signed for a matter of weeks now .

Would he not indicate that until the agreement is signed, there is no definite confirmation available to the effect that the program is going on or is not going on. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. Johns is quite free to draw that conclusion, but 1 would suggest that if in fact agreements have not been signed it does not necessarily mean that the different items under those agreements have not been agreed to by all parties concerned and that in fact the policy in the forthcoming year is quite clear . 3870

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , I have a question to the First Minister.

Following upon his letter to the congressional leaders in the United States concerning the Garrison, I wonder if he can confirm reports that the United States Congress, in a Public Works Appropriation Bill passed this last week contained instructions to the President of the United States that appropriations already allocated to Garrison be spent and that a resolution to that effect is presently being debated by the Senate and the House of Representatives that would require by a simple majority vote that the President do spend the funds that have already been appropriated.

Could he indicate whether, if that goes through , it will have the effect of introducing some form of new waters or foreign waters into the Red River or the Lake Winnipeg system? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Well Mr. Speaker, to give a complete answer to my honourable friend would probably require a lecture on the workings of the American Congressional system which he would agree I am probably not equippped to give, and secondly, which would probably bore the Chamber.

My information is that the Lower House, that is, the House of Representatives, did pass an appropriation relating to the Garrison Diversion which has some of the effects at least , that m honourable friend has indicated. I have no further information as to the status of the debate or the position of the appropriation before the Senate of the United States, but I can certainly endeavour, or the Minister of Mines can endeavour to find that out through the usual channels and if it has not already appeared in the press, then we can so advise the House. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

If in fact it appears that there is a resolution on the Order Paper in the American Congress that would require the President of the United States to release the moneys that he is presently deferring, is there any inclination on the part of this government in company with the Federal Government, to make representations to the Congressional Committee concerning that resolution pointing out the potential impact and damage it would have if such an appropriation was released and the money spent? MR. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, I believe that I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition, if not to my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Rouge, when this question arose last week, or at least when I spoke to it last week, that we would be quite willing to have representatives from the Government of Manitoba appear before any or all committees of the U.S.

Congress with respect to this matter - if the Department of External Affairs so communicated to us or received in answer to our query, it would prove to be productive in protecting Manitoba waters from the negative effects of Garrison, which we and the majority of the people who have looked at it, all agree will occur if Garrison recedes. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the First Minister could then indicate whether the ..,/ communication with that particular intent in mind has been submitted to the Department of External Affairs, and whether there has been any response to it. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice because of the absence of my colleague, the Minister of Mines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Tourism, relating to the number of lifeguards that are supposed to be positioned at the various park locations in Manitoba which have beach facilities. Can the Minister give us a status report as to the level of staffing for beach patrols and lifeguards at the various beaches in Manitoba? I understand as of a week ago, those lifeguards were still not in place. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. ROBERT (BOB) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I'll check into the matter and get an exact count. As I mentioned a while ago, some of the lakes where there is colder water wouldn't have lifeguards till the ice was gone, but we will check into the matter. I know that the Red Cross is working very closely with the department to provide those 70-plus lifeguards for the province, and I'll report back to the Legislature . 3871

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the reduction of operations at Hooker Chemicals in Brandon, and the layoff of power engineers at that company , is the Minister now prepared to lift the exemptions from Simplot Chemicals Limited in Brandon so that it will now be required to have the appropriate number of qualified engineers on staff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr .

Speaker , I haven 't had a report as to who is being laid off, but I will check in to see what type of engineers are being laid off . MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker , I thank the Minister for her answer and we look forward to her report . I think it will confirm that they do not have adequate categories of engineers on staff at the various times . I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister another question with regard to Simplot Chemicals.

Will the Minister advise whether it is still the case that the Department of Labour .... inspectors are being prevented by the Minister from inspecting Simplot Chemicals at night even though Simplot Chemicals is a 24-hour continuous operation? MRS . PRICE: Mr . Speaker, I have never prevented the inspectors from carrying on inspections - I leave it to the director of that department . MR. EVANS: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker. I wonder if the Minister would also take this as notice and look into this matter to make sure that this is the case.

The information I have is that inspections are not going on at night, and I think the Minister should report back to the House whether that is the case or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker , a supplementary to the question put by the Member for Brandon East. During the course of our Estimates' discussions the Minister of Labour had indicated that there were instructions issued to the staff not to inspect other than during certain hours of the day. The answer she has given is now a contradiction to that. I wonder if the Minister would clarify. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, in my Estimates I made the statement that our inspectors are not going at the turn of every shift around the clock on a 24-hour basis. I would like to tell the honourable gentleman across that Simplot just got a certificate recently for their safe achievements in their workplace . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

RONALD McBRYDE : I'd like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs if he's been able to make a decision yet in regard to the Pakwagan Log Milling operation at Wabowden, whether the decision of to whom he was going to sell that operation that was to be made three weeks ago , or two weeks ago, or last week, will be made this week . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): I would hope , Mr. Speaker , that the decision will be made this week . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Education in regard to questions asked last week and the week before in regard to the BUNTEP and IMPACTE programs. I wonder if he has any further answers as to whether or not the funds of those programs are being used for the purpose to which the province has assigned them to the president of Brandon University. 3872

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I accepted several questions from the Honourable Member for The Pas last week in regard to the IMPACTE, BUNTEP programs . One, I believe , asked about the termination of the positions of two native people in those particular programs who were on sabbatical leave . I can report that there are two people away on sabbatical leave but only one of those is native. Neither has had his contract terminated . I am pleased to report that both will be working for the projects this coming year .

A second question from the honourable member asked whether there will be any native people working in the programs this fall. I can assure him that this fall there will be at least three native people working on these particular projects . A third question dealt with community liaison . One of the staff who is returning from sabbatica l will be looking after this specific responsibility when he returns to his duties in July . As far as the question as to the utilization of the funds, Mr.

Speaker , I believe I have addressed that previously and I can reiterate that we are satisfied that this is being looked after very adequately and for the first time within these programs, we now will have a formal agreement signed very shortly with Brandon University that will enable us more easily to monito r what is happening in these particular programs . Mr. Speaker , I also accepted a question from the Honourable Leader of the Opposition last week and I would like to reply to that also at this time. It was in regard to a particular school in River East School Division.

I can report that in January , 1977, the River East School Division submitted a preliminary Notice of Intent for a school in that particular area. Because little development in that area had taken place at that time , the Publi c Schools Finance Board asked the division to resubmit their request in June , 1977. This was done but because little change had taken place between January and June , it was apparently agreed by both the Public Schools Finance Board and the school division that the matter should not be proceeded with for the time being .

To date, the division has not signified that it wishes to proceed with the project. If and when such a request is received, the Public Schools Finance Board will deal with it in the usual way . In the meantime , Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that there is sufficient space in nearby schools in the division to accomodate the pupils that are there .$ MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in asking a further question to the Minister on the same subject, I would just remind him that there were some other questions that I asked a day or two before the ones that he answered so maybe when he has those, he could also supply that answer.

I wonder if he could also indicate and report back on the number of staff reduction that there will be for next year in the BUNTEP and IMPACTE programs and the number of native staff reductions there will be in those programs and also whether or not he has received a letter from The Pas Indian Band and whether he has responded to that letter in regard to these programs. MR. COSENS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in regard to the last part of the honourable member's question, I received a copy of a letter that was sent to the Board of Governors of Brandon University and also a copy of a letter that went back in reply to The Pas Indian Band which I think in many cases will erase any misunderstandings that may have existed in that particular situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. PETER FOX: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that Simplot now has adequate qualified engineers, when is she going to lift the exemption with respect to The Power Engineers Act? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, it is under constant review. MR. FOX: Since that is a non-answer , Mr . Speake r, is she indicating that Simplot will now have an exemption in perpetuity and have an unfair advantage over other plants that have to have power engineers? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker . I would like to address a question to the Honourable 3873

Monday, June 19, 1978 Minister of Labour in relation to the questions she answered about inspections at the plants in Brandon . Could the Min ister indicate whether or not there is ongoing provision for routine, random , unannounced inspect ions of plants which are open on a 24-hour a day basis? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MRS. PRICE: The inspections routine is going on exactly the same as it has for the last number of years. The only change that was made in it was last August when the directions were given to the inspectors to inspect around the clock .

It's back to where it was prior to that, exactly the same as the honourable members across had . MR. CHERNIACK: Well , Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister whether she is relying on past practice to justify her failure to see to it that there are ongoing inspections 24 hours a day during the three shifts or whether people can feel free today, under the present government , to carry on as they like for two shifts of the three knowing that there will not be any inspections .

In other words, is the Minister prepared to continue without a proper routine work on the part of her inspectors to make sure that the laws are being complied with? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, the inspections are being carried on under the direction of highly expertised men in my department and they are being carried on in a fashion that we feel is quite safe for everybody concerned . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for St. Johns with a final . . . MR. CHERNIACK : Well, Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister now confirm that there are no inspections being carried on by her department for 16 hours out of the 24 in a day and that people who are likely to be inspected can feel free to know that there will not be any inspection during those other periods of the day, other than the daytime period? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , there aren 't advance notices at any of the workplaces that there are going to be inspections carried on and we are quite satisfied that the inspections, at the rate they are going on now , meets with all the safety requirements . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, with leave of the House, I would like to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker, on this past weekend, there was a celebrity bonspiel held at the Provincial Exhibition in Brandon of which members from both sides of the House participated along with the Lieutenant-Governor. I would like to report to the House, Mr.

Speaker, that it was a very competitive bonspiel at which the Member for Brandon East participated, who I am sure can confirm this, and ~ that I would like to congratulate the members on this side for winning the trophy and representing the province at that occasion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, in response to that non-political statement, I, too, would like to comment that it was a most enjoyable weekend.

I would like to point out , however, to the members of the House that it was a tie game except that the two skips had to throw one last rock each and fortunately for the Conservative team , their skip threw the closest rock, so it was a pretty tight race. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Industry and Commerce .

In view of the federal announcement that there would be new regional centres of research and development established, can he indicate to the House whether the Province of Manitoba has yet made any submissions to establish such a regional centre for industrial and technology eevelopment in the Proince of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, we have had contact with the Federal Minister in charge of Science and Technology. Also I should point out to the member that in the DREE Agreement which was 3874

Monday, June 19, 1978 signed , the industria l DREE Agreement , a fairly substantive par t of that particular agreement, somewhere in the neighbourhood of $17 million, has been earmarked for R and D, Research and Development work , so we are monitoring the situation very closely . Also , the Federal Minister in charge of Small Business is also asking fo r input from the provinces with regard to different areas of development for venture capital and that type of thing dealing with technology .

So we are monitoring closely; we are in contact with the Federal Government to try and make sure that as much of that much needed research and development is brought to Manitoba as possible. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , my questi on to the Minister was: Do we intend to submit a specific proposal to have a regional centre like that being established in other regions of the country located in the Province of Mani toba and, if so, is the government developing any ideas to determine what kind of research and development centre could be established in this province using that federal proposal money? . MR.

BANMAN: Well , Mr. Speaker , we have identified several sectors in the industries such as the Food Products Centre in Portage Ia Prairie , established a year or so ago, which is opening up. We have ident ified certain areas that we will be researching in; again , it's got to do with the DREE Agreement , and we will be consulting with the federal Ministers as far as further assistance in technology and development , R and D work is concerned. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker , perhaps I'll put the question this way : will the Minister undertake to contact both the industrial and academic research bodies in the Province of Manitoba in order that a specific proposal can be developed which would be submitted to the government to establish that centre of technology and research in the Province of Manitoba under the new program that was announced last week? MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can tell the member that we will check into it.

I should point out that we do have the Manitoba Research Council and several other agencies which are dealing with research and development and these agencies , I hope, will be working very closely with any federal initiatives . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I don 't think the Minister for Urban Affairs has returned to the House . I would like to direct another question with regard to the flooding problems experienced by citizens in Tyndall Park .

Does the Min ister confirm that in particular with regard to the new development in Tyndall Park , the people there are in a special category because the development was planned and their houses were built , although there was not sufficient storm sewer coverage , and that these people were therefore enticed to go into a development which the city knew , or should have known , would not provide proper storm sewage? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs . HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker , I am advised that the First Minister has already answered the question.

On Friday last we advised the city that the Provincial Government, for a number of reasons, would not participate in flood compensation related to the storms of last year . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I don't know what relationship that answer has to the question that I put.

I will repeat the question : would the Minister confirm that with regard to a particular group of people in any event , that is, those residing in the new development in Tyndall Park , that the problem of flooding arises because the storm sewerage is not sufficient to cover the problems that arise by flooding that would not cause problems in other areas , and that the city knew or should have known, when the people moved into that area , that the storm sewerage was inadequate? Does the Minister have facts which would confirm that that is the case? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I cannot confirm that. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if the Minister of Urban Affairs , in deference to the citizens that are in this position, would look into the matter and see whether these citizens are not in a particular position , because they went into a new development which did not have adequate storm sewage coverage? 3875

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker , that is a question that , if it is to be put , should be put to the City of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Point Douglas . MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you , Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs . Is the Minister going to take the advice of the Free Press editorial of June to stop the subsidy of the city transit buses so the city can free tender and buy its buses from General Motors instead of from our publicly-owned Flyer Industries? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, there has been no request by the City of Winnipeg to participate in any purchase of buses this year and that question has not been dealt with . MR. MALINOWSKI: A supplementa ry, Mr . Speaker . Is it correct that about 85 percent of the mailing costs of the Free Press are paid by the taxpayers through postal subsidies? MR. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, I think that's a matter that will have to be put to the honourable member 's federal member of parl iament. MR. MALINOWSKI: A second supplementary , Mr. Speaker.

Since the Free Press insists a business should not receive subsidies so that people can know the true costs of what is produced , will the Minister propose to the Federal Government then, to stop its subsidy to the Free Press so we can see how many people buy it when we must pay the true cost instea d of having our pockets quietly picked by a subsidy . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I would perhaps suggest to the honourable member that he might follow the example of the Member for Inkster and take out an ad . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker , on Monda y last I took as notice a question from the Honourable Member for For t Rouge and supporting question s from the Honourable Member for Rupertsland having to do with a child neglect case in Little Grand Rapids involving a five-months old infant - five months now ; five weeks then - who was sleeping on the floor of an unheated home. There was concern expressed because a media report of Saturday, June 10th had stated that officials of my department were planning to return the infant to her parents . I have received a report on the incident, Mr .

Speaker , from officials of my department , and can advise the honourable members that the media report was wrong and that our officials were not planning to return the infant to her parents until such time as they were satisfied that homemaking conditions in that particular home had improved . I might note , Mr. Speaker, that the parents concerned were pressing to have the infant returned to their care . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , I thank the Minister for the information .

In that same press report it was also indicated that the presiding judge who dealt with tee case of the parents had also expressed concern of the role played by the Departme nt of Health and Social Development in trying to return the child to the custody of the parents , and that this is the reason for the decision taken by the judge to put them in jail.

Does the Minister intend to discuss th is matter with court officials and to follow up - I think the second part of the question I raised - examine the kinds of procedures that are followed in the reserves related to the custody of childr en in these kinds of circumstances? He indicated at that time he would be prepared to make an an nouncement of that kind . MR. SHERMAN: Well , I am doi ng that , Mr. Speaker , and can undertake to complete it, but I would point out that all things being equal, wher e there is reasonably good parenting it is desirable to have children maintained in the homes of their parents .

These two particular parents were substantially regarded by the RCMP , by members of the community , by officials of my department. They lapsed into periods of neglect , unfortunately , but their children were well-loved, well-fed and well-attended , generally speaking , so that the philosophy of the department would be to return the children as soon as they were satisfied that those lapses of neglect had been corrected . The parents unfortunately are serving sentences now for child neglect and so the children are all under the care of the Department of Health and Social Development.67 -01 MR.

AXWORTHY: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker. I would ask the Minister two 3876

Monday, June 19, 1978 questions . One is, what procedures are followed to determine when there are lapses - who provides the judgment or evaluation as to whether a child should have returned to a home under these circumstances? And secondly, would he indicate whether there are alternative care facilities in remote areas like this where children could be placed over a period of time pending that kind of evaluation or assessment, whether the parents would take proper care of the child? MR. SHERMAN: Well , yes, there are , Mr.

Speaker , in answer to the honourable member's last question, and in fact the infant in question was placed in a foster home that very day , the day that she was removed from the parental home . In answer to his first question, the determination is made by either federal or provincial officials, in this case, Little Grand Rapids Treaty Status Reserve.

Primarily the responsibility there rests with the Federal Government , although naturally the provincial Department of Health and Social Development does not turn a blind eye or a deaf ear to critical situations involving children and we had personnel from Child and Family Ser vices, our Eastman region office, par ticipating with a federal nurse, with the RCMP in that particular case . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Attorney-General.

I've been advised that there has been a suggestion that no one be accepted as a resident with the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of the Health Sciences Centre unless he or she is ready to perform or at least assist in the performance of an abort ion.

Now my question is this , would it not be discriminat ion and against the Human Rights Legislation if, during the interview for those people that are seeking acceptance at this hospital , the question of religion and moral issues are discussed to determine their stand on abortion, would not my honourable friend be ready to consult with his colleague, the Minister of Health , and inform the hospital after proper investigation by the hospital and the College of Physicians and Surgery Medical Faculty , that this kind of discrimination will not be tolerated in Manitoba? MR. MERCIER: As the question was put , Mr.

Speaker , that would appear to violate the Human Rights Act , but obviously it's a question that would perhaps require some further investigation if necessary , and some further consultation with the Minister of Health and Social Development before a final determination of that question could be made . MR. DESJARDINS: Then, Mr . Speaker , will the Minister take proper steps to have this matter ,. investigated and discuss it with his colleague? MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs. Can the Minister confirm that the Thompson City Council has petitioned both himself and the Minister of Labour to take action in regard to the strike and the lockout of retail clerk members in Thompson, 3877

Monday, June 19, 1978 and can he indicate what act ion, if any, his government has taken in response to that request? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker , there was a special council meeting called in Thompson and out of that meeting it was felt by the city that telegrams should be sent to the Honourable Minister of Labour and myself asking if it would be possible to appoint a conciliation officer to see if then he could get the two parties sitting down to the table .

The only action that we have taken, and I think it 's a very responsible action , is I discussed the situation with the Minister of Labour and I understand tha t a conciliation officer was appointed Friday afternoon, and I understand that both parties are sitting down today talking . I think that's where we like to see them ; you can't resolve a thing if you 're not at the table . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you , Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce .

In view of reports in the press from government sources regarding the Trade Development Branch and the Manitoba Trading Corporat ion and certain inadequacies thereof, can the Minister advise whether the Trade Development Branch or the Manitoba Trading Corporation are either being phased out or are their functions being reduced in any way? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , I believe we had some 12 people involved in that particular function, whether it be Manitrade, the direct sales function organization, or the people helping in trade development.

I believe that is an adequate amount. They are busy right now dealing with different clients . We have one special person that was left on contract ; namely, Mr. Armstrong , who is exclusively working with the new fighter offset program trying to get as much offset on that new fighter aircraft program to Manitoba as possible, so I think they 're doing an adequate job. There was funding allowed for them in the Estimates and those Estimates have been passed by this House. MR. EVANS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker .

Then is the Honourable Minister telling us that the Trade Development staff is being maintained as is, in effect , and that he is now ignoring the recommendations of the Task Force on government organization - that this function either be terminated or reduced substantially? In effect is the Minister telling us that he is not going by the Task Force recommendation , he's going to continue with the Trade Development. . . MR. SPEAKER: Order , Order please. Order please . The question is out of order . We have now reached the time when the question period has expired and we'll proceed with the Orders of the Day.

The Honou rable Member for Gladstone . MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I have two changes on the Economic Development Committee ; s ubsti tute the name of Mr. Steen for Mr. Craik, and Mr. Kovnats for Mr. Brown . ORDERS OF THE DAY ' MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , before proceeding to the Orders of the Day I should like to just remind the honourable members that the Economic Development Committee will be meeting tomorrow morning at 10:00 o'clock to consider the Communities Economic Development Fund Report and the report of Manfor.

If that is not concluded then that committee will meet again on Thursday . Also the Municipal Affairs Committee will be meeting in Room 200 to consider Bill 18, and if that is not concluded tomorrow it will reconvene again on Thursday . Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carriedand the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the 3878

Monday, June 19, 1978 Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for the Civil Service Commission . . t$ CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Lady and gentlemen, we have a quorum, we are on Page 16 and 17 of the Estimates Book, Civil Service, Civil Service Commission 1.(

a) Salaries- the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission. MRS. PRICE: I'd just like to give a few highlights of 1977 for the gentlemen. There has been 942 competitions conducted by the Commission; there's 18,200 applications received for these competitions for an average of 19.4 applicants per competition; 36 appeals were received and processed by the Commission , most for reclassification reasons ; 97 employees were referred to Employee Health and Counselling Service, over half of them responding well to the treatment and working productively .

There were 61 seminars held with over a thousand Civil Service supervisors on how to handle unproductive employees with health related problems; seminars conducted with government departments throughout the province on an equal employment opportunity concepts and practices . The Commission staff participated in many Career Days at high schools in Manitoba. Guest lectures were also given at universities and community colleges. Brandon and Thompson Regional Offices continued providing Central Agency Assistance to departments in rural areas . Full-time Chairman M.B.

Newton appointed to Civil Service Commission along with two new members, Shirley Bradshaw and Mr. R.O. Hunter . The overall reduction in the 1978-79 proposed Estimates in Expenditures of $57,900 or 10 percent for the Civil Service Commission are in accordance with the restraint program. The reduction was brought about primarily by discontinuance of Career Planning Branch . The funds are being transferred to the main appropriation of the Civil Service Commission to provide for the maintenance of the Equal Employment Opportunity Program in the Civil Service .

This mainly accounts for the increase in Other Expenditures of $17,700 .00. In addition, staffing officers will be charged with the additional responsibility of interviewing and providing career advice to the disadvantaged minority groups . Since this is an additional responsibility of existing staff it is not reflected in the cost figures . Arrangements have been made with staff of the Women 's Bureau of the Department of Labour to assist the Civil Service Commission in counselling women in the Civil Service with respect to training and employment opportunities.

Once again , this service is being provided and therefore it doesn't register as an increased Expenditure Estimate . Moreover, the existing staff of other Central Personnel Agencies will be involved in maintaining an equal Equal Employment Program through the analysis of jobs and the development of training programs for target groups .

While the external recruitment activities of the Civil Service Commission have decreased wioh the restraint program, operations involving internal redeployment and re-employment of staff by the Commission have increased substantially and will continue for the balance of the fiscal year. Modest increase in funds is required for the two additional part-time Civil Service Commissioners who were appointed, as I just mentioned . The regional Commission offices in Brandon and Thompson will be retained to provide ongoing personnel services in these areas.

The Civil Service Commission has established an Employee Health and Counselling Service Program , which operates in liaison with, and its services are available to, all Manitoba Government departments, branches and bureaus , as follows . The education : Appropriate educational workshops or seminars are provided consistent with the time available and the target group designated by the particular department. Films, pamphlets and other education aids are used .

Top management are made familiar with the program and involved in the development of the relative administrative details relating to their own departments or branches . Supervisors are trained to identify signs of a health problem, to understand the requirements of an employee with such a problem and to make appropriate referrals in accordance with the program guidelines . Staff are involved in various educational programs outlining the nature and symptoms of behavioural health problems and the procedures and resources available to them .

For the treatment: The Service provides for case consultation and assessment with the supervisor and employee, accepts referrals , arranges for appropriate treatment and provides case 3879

Monday, June 19, 1978 The treatment guidelines : The objective of this program is to retain employees in all departments of the government throughout the province who develop health problems by utilizing every reasonable means to restore them to normal work performance and productivity. Job performance is the criteria on which the supervisor shall base any actions relative to behavioural health. The decision to seek diagnosis and accept treatment is basically the responsibility of the employee . Self-referral should be made to the appropriate agency or be requested from the supervisor .

Where this is not done voluntarily or response to treatment is negative, a mandatory referral shall be made by the superv isor . Continued unacceptable performance due to refusal to accept treatment or inability to respond adequately may result in termination of employment. When the illness has been identified the employee may utilize accumulated sick-leave credits for the purpose of participating in public or private treatment and rehabilitation programs which have been recommended by Employee Health and Counselling Services and may be granted other assistance as required .

Provincial employees suffering from alcoholism or other forms of substance abuse will receive the same consideration extended to employees having other illnesses . Confidentiality of records and personal information shall be maintained at all times . No provincial employee shall have job security or promotion opportunities jeopardized by a request for counselling or referral assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any members of the committee wish to make any remarks regarding the Minister's statement? The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. ·I appreciate the overview of the department.

I believe I would like to, at this point in time, specifically go into some of the questions related to the Commission and dealing with the aspect of recruitment and hiring. I would like to ask the Minister whether there has been any change in terms of policy in the hiring practices within the Civil Service Commission over the last six or seven months . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister. MRS. PRICE: Incidentally , I must apologize . For the new people here I would like to introduce Mr. Bob Best who is with me. He is the Director of Personnel in the Civil Service .

He has just advised me that there has been one major change in the employment and that is that once a selection has been made it goes to the Deputy Minister instead of the Minister, thereby taking the political figure out of the picture . MR. URUSKI: In the recommendations that are made, how are the recommendations going forward to the hiring authority?

There were two approaches that have been taken in the past and that is, in the regular employment , in the lower echelons of the Civil Service, there was either a direct recommendation made on the employee who was the preferred candidate for the selection or a list of three possible candidates who were equally applicable or qualified for a choice of the hiring authority . Is that practice still continuing in terms of both procedures? MRS. PRICE: I believe previously there were three names went forth , three preferred candidates . Now it is one that goes forth. MR.

URUSKI: The one candidate goes forward along with a list of candidates who were also qualified for the position? MRS. PRICE: I have been advised that just the one name goes forth . If the Deputy Minister should want, for one reason or another, to know who the other candidates were, he can go to the selection board and ask them and he will be given the names . MR. URUSKI: The names of the . . . MRS. PRICE: The other candidates . MR. URUSKI: . . are made available to him if he so requests them . To whom does the Deputy Minister report? MRS. PRICE: To the Minister. MR.

URUSKI: Therefore, in essence , the suggestion made by the Minister that the pol itics, so-called politics, of the selection process has been taken out - could the Minister elaborate on what she 3880

Monday, June 19, 1978 really means by that statement? MRS. PRICE: I have been advised that there is nothing to stop the Deputy Minister from speaking to the Minister anyway. It's just a matter of before they used to go to the Minister and now they consult with the Deputy . If the Minister wants to see fit to speak to the Deputy, then that's MR.

URUSKI: So then what the Min iste r really is saying is that basically other than the formality of the change , the procedure is basically the same other than the formality of the selection forms being signed by the Deput y Ministe r who is acting on beha lf of his Minister and who is appointed by the Minister responsible for the department , whoever the Deputy is. Am I correct in assuming that? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister ind icate whether the Civil Service Commission is keeping a record of the numbers of actual staff , not positions but actual staff that have been laid off since October or in the last year , depa rtment by depa rtment? If the Minister can supply the figures prior to October and say at the end of March , at the end of the fiscal year. Is that available? MRS. PRICE: It will take a while to figure it out. If you like , we can come back to you . MR. URUSKI: That's fine. You will be able to, department by department, and . . . yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR.

USKIW: Perhaps the Minister does have certain figures available which she could leave with us and then whatever remains to be brought forward , could be brought forward later . MRS. PRICE: As of June 6th , this year , there have been 165 people on the re-employment list, 81 civil servants and 84 term of more than a year . Of these, 29 have been re-employed and 21 have resigned. There are 115 remaining on the list. 51-30 MR. URUSKI: As of June 6th, there 3881 were 165 on the re-employment? MRS. PRICE: Yes, there were 165 that had been laid off . MR. USKIW: Had been laid off? Oh, yes .. . MR.

URUSKI: Right, actual persons, all right. And of those, 81 were civil servants full-time ? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. URUSKI: I don't want the staff man years, I want the actual persons. And 84 were term positions . When you talk about term, does that include contract positions as well? MRS. PRICE: No. MR. URUSKI: There are contract people in addition to that. Did you say of those 84, some 21 or 29 resigned? MRS .. PRICE: No, 21 have resigned and 29 have been re-employed else where in the Civil Service.

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. USKIW: 29 out of how many? MRS. PRICE: Out of the 165. MR. URUSKI: So of those 50 that we're talking about of resigned and re-employed, some of them could have been term, some of them could have been civil servants. MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. URUSKI: So it's a mixture of both of the 50. All right.

Would you have any figures dealing with other classes of employee , like casual, that may have been hired for a long period, unlike the term employee , or are there any on the employment rolls that would be clas sified as casual but still have been employed within the government's services for a long period of time? MRS. PRICE: I'm advised the 84 takes in the bulk of the long-term ; the others would be casual , seasonal , on a short contract. MR.

URUSKI: Would you have any figures with respect to actual contract employees that contracts have been terminated or the Civil Service Commission , do they keep a record of those employees? MRS. PRICE: Those figures are all in the Management Committee. MR. URUSKI: So you would have no information with respect to contra ct employees then. MRS. PRICE: Not of that. MR. URUSKI: Okay . Could the Minister indicate how the Re-employment Committee is functioning and what are the terms of reference and who sits on that committee in terms of staff? MRS.

PRICE: The gentleman who is wihh me today, Bob Best, Paul Hart and two members of the MGEA sit on the committee . MR. URUSKI: Has that committee met since it was established and could the Minister give us some information on how it has functioned? What are its terms of reference and I see that there have been 29 civil servants re-employed . The remainder of 115 civil serva nts, could the Minister comment on those as well as to the work that the committee is doing? MRS. PRICE: Well , this committee has met several times and they are meeting regularly.

The two MGEA members of the committee bring the concerns of the association to the committee and this is how they determine their problems and how best to go about them. MR. URUSKI: Yes, what I'm getting at is, what authority has this committee received from the Minister or from the government in terms of whether the government is giving priority to the hiring of these civil servants? I want to know how the government views this committee . Is this committee being viewed as window-dressing or is there an intent on this committee really doing something with respect to the layoffs that have occurred? MRS.

PRICE: They are just in the throes of signing an agreement to this effect and they've got the authority to go ahead with their hiring as they see fit. MR. UAUSKI: Could the Minister elaborate a little bit more . When you say hiring, the committee has been given authority , as vacancies arise and the people who have been laid off - they are trying to match laid-off persons with job vacancies as they arise? 3882

Monday, June 19, 1978 MRS. PRICE: Yes. There is an agreement being signed between the gove rn ment and the MGEA giving preference to the people who have been laid off to have the first chance at re-employme nt. MR. URUSKI: They will have the first recall , they are on first recall on the basis of the comm ittee meet ing and the authority vested in that committee . MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for St. George , I have other persons that have indicated they wish to ask questions . Can I go on to them? MR. URUSKI: That's fine , okay. For now, that's good , okay . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can tell us, as of the most recent statistical data that she has, the total numbe r of employees in the Civil Service and the date of that statistic. MRS. PRICE: Civil servants as of December , 1977, it's in our annual report, is 11,073 . MR. USKIW: There is no more recent date, Mr. Chairman? MRS. PRICE: I'm advised that these records come under Management Committee and that they can be obtained through them . MR. USKIW: As of that date then , how many contract positions did we have, additional to the 11 ,073? MRS.

PRICE: There aren't any contract in this figure ; this is civil servants . MR. USKIW: No, no, I recognize that. In the government system , how many contract positions did we have as of the same date? MRS. PRICE: I'm advised that all these figures are in the Management Committee . MR. USKIW: So we have no figures to deal with here at the present time. MRS. PRICE: It doesn 't come through the Commission . MR. USKIW: Well, I'm wondering whether it wouldn 't help us if the department was willing to get us the information. MRS. PRICE: Yes, we're willing to get them. We'll get them. MR.

USKIW: Perhaps the Minister would take notice of the questions then. The number of civil servants , at least to the end of, or at the end of the last fiscal year ; the number of contract positions; the number of vacant positions but which are positions that have not been dropped and then, how many vacant positions have been eliminated and how many vacant positions have been filled . MRS. PRICE: Yes, we're prepared to bring the figures back to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . MR.

URUSKI : In those figures , could you also , to make them mean ingful , could you compare them to the annual Manitoba statistics , or take into account the number of term and casual employees to make them comparable to the previous figures? MRS. PRICE: Yes, we'll do that. 3883

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Yes, I wonder if this is the place that the Minister would want to tell us why it was found necessary to let the chairman of the Commission - well , they didn't let him go, that's the problem - to change the role of the chairman of the Commission . What was the circumstance that sort of led to the removal of Mr. Duncan from the chairmanship of the Commission? What logic or reason lies behind that? MRS.

PRICE: To the Member for Lac du Bonnet, I think that would best be asked of the First Minister in his Estimates because that comes under him. -(Interjection)- I know, but he was gone before I came into the portfolio and I believe it would be best answered by the First Minister . MR. USKIW: But, Mr . Chairman, is the salary of the Civil Service Commission not in these Estimates? Do these Estimates not show an amount to cover the salary of the Civil Service Commission chairman? MRS. PRICE: Yes, they do. MR. USKIW: Well then, Mr. Chairman, I submit that it's a debatable point. MRS.

PRICE: Well , he's equivalent to a Deputy Minister , the Deputy Ministers come under the Premier and I believe he would be the best one to answer that for you. MR. USKIW: Is the Minister indicating that she had no knowledge as to why that decision was made? MRS. PRICE: I can't answer that. As I say, he was gone before I came into the portfolio and would have to leave that for the First Minister to answer . - (Interjection)- MR. USKIW: Well, I believe it's not so. MRS. PRICE: I'm not the one that relieved the Commissioner of his position.

It was the Premier that ... to the Member for Lac du Bonnet that I'm speaking to right now . .. and it's the Premier that MR. USKIW: I'll defer to the Member for St. Johns who wants to pursue the same subject . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Just on this one point, the Minister has said twice that Mr. Duncan, I think she used the word left , before she came into the portfolio - I think she should check her memory . MRS. PRICE: Well, I had nothing to do with his termination. That's what I'm saying to you . It was right at the beginning .

I had nothing to do with his termination and I'm sure that the Premier would be more than willing to explain why he has let him go . I can't answer the reasons for it, if I could I would tell you , but the Premier 's the one that had the dialogue and is the one who released him, and I think you would be best to ask him for the reasons . The Commissioner is the same status as a Deputy Minister , and as you know , they come under the Premier and so does he. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I interrupted because I was concerned firstly to make sure that the record was correct , and I think it can be clearly established that the Minister took office before Mr . Duncan was let go. I think she has now agreed that that is the case , that she was in office at the time when he was the Commiss ioner , and that he was later set aside for another Commissioner . I think that's correct , is it not? MRS. PRICE: Yes, I had never met the gentleman .

I had no dialogue with him whatsoever and as you know it was right in the first days , I knew nothing about the circumstances and that's why 1 would prefer that you speak to the Premier about it. His Estimates haven 't come up yet and they come under his jurisdiction . · MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , secondly, the Minister said she never spoke to Mr. Duncan, is 3884

•I Monday, June 19, 1978 that correct? MRS. PRICE: That's correct. MR. CHERNIACK: She has never had any interview or conversation with Mr. Duncan? All right. Then third point is, just to clarify, Mr. Chairman , my impression is that the Commissioner can only be appointed by the Cabinet , not by the Premier, not by the Minister, and that although it is the convention that Deputy Ministers report and are responsible to the Premier for appointment, that that is not the case with the Civil Service Commissioner , and I think she was incorrect in saying that it comes under the Premier .

I think we ought to clarify again . I believe he does not come under the Premier and he's not like a Deputy Minister , and , in fact , he cannot be let off the Board without, I believe, it's a two-third vote of the Legislature, so let's establish that his position is .. . Well it's almost unique, I think he and the Ombudsman and the Provincial Auditor. -(Interjection)- And the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly , fine.

So that he is in quite a different position from any Deputy Minister, and the Premier can fire Deputy Ministers left and right , and appoint Deputy Ministers right and left, even without consultation of the Minister . This does not apply to the Civil Service Commissioner . And I think further that in the case of Mr. Duncan, he was not fired, and that's really what I'd like to get clarified. I think he was replaced as chairman. MRS. PRICE: That's correct. MR. CHERNIACK: Is he still on the Board? MRS. PRICE: Yes he is. I think I answered those questions in the House for one of the members the other day .

He is still on the Board , he's not in the Commission, he asked for early retirement and as of the 1st of April he has been getting his superannuation . MR. CHERNIACK: Does the Minister suggest that this is a voluntary decision on the part of Mr. Duncan that he should retire , or ask for early retirement , or is it only after the Conservative Government set him aside and took away from him the role of the Civil Service Commissioner? Is that not true? MRS. PRICE: I imagine his decision was made after the Conservative Party, definitely. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry to be insistant but I don't think it's a matter for any conjecture or imagination of the Minister, I think it's true, isn't it? MRS. PRICE: Yes, it is true, it's very obviously true. MR. CHERNIACK: Well then, Mr. Chairman, as the Minister responsible for the Civil Service, do I understand that the appointment or the temporary appointment of the previous Civil Service Commissioner was done without her participation at all? MRS. PRICE: No, it was done with my participation in Cabinet, I guess, but I was in there for two days when the transaction took place.

It was our first Cabinet meeting and it was the Premier who was looking after it. As I say, I had no dialogue with the individual at all. I knew nothing of his background or his performance . It was the Premier that handled the arrangement , so I think it would be best if you refer your comments to him. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm even surprised to hear that it took place two days after the Cabinet was sworn in. My recollection was that it was longer than that. I would just like to check - was it only two days after the appointment that he was let go? MRS.

PRICE: I believe it was around the first Cabinet meeting . We took office on the Monday, and I can 't swear to it but I'm pretty sure it was right at the beginning. However, I had no dialogue with the individual and I would suggest that you ask the Premier. He still has to come before the Committeeaand that would be the place to get your answers from. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, the reason I got into this conversation is that the Minister obviously did not have a correct recollection of when it was that Mr .

Duncan was demoted, if that's the word , because she had stated earlier that it happened before she was sworn in but that's clearly 3885

Monday, June 19, 1978 incorrect. MRS. PRICE: I didn 't say that. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , the Minister did say that , Mr. Chairman , she did say that. And what she wants to say is that she takes no responsibili ty for the decision that was made, that it was all made by the Premier and she had nothing to do with it. So I would then have to ask, what was her relationship with the Commissioners, the members of the Civil Service Board of whom Mr. Duncan continued to be a member for quite some time?

Did she meet with the Board, has she consulted with the Board, has she exchanged opinions as to the way the Board should operate , and if so was Mr . Duncan present at the meeting? MRS. PRICE: I have mentioned to you numerous times, I have neve r with Mr. Duncan . I would also like to say that I am not going to say any more about Mr. Duncan because I don't know anything about the gentleman or his work habits or his capabilities and I suggest that you ask the Premier . I think that should be satisfactory to get the answers you want.

I can' t give you the answers , I don't know the individual and I'm not prepared to discuss it any further . MR. CHERNIACK: Could the Minister answer the question I asked unrelate d to Mr. Duncan. Has she met with the Board of the Civil Service Commission to discuss policy with the Commission? MRS. PRICE: Not at that point. MR. CHERNIACK: No, no, I'm saying, at all. MRS. PRICE: I have since , yes. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , how recently, or how early , and how many times has the Minister met? MRS.

PRICE: I meet with the Civil Service to discuss the operation of the department but prior to that time I hadn 't met with them . MR. CHERNIACK: I want to clarify , Mr. Chairman, when the Minister says with the Civil Service, does she mean with the Commission or with the staff? MRS. PRICE: I have met with the staff .37 MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, well, I'm asking about the Board . MRS. PRICE: I have not met with the Board. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , of whom does the Board consist? Who are the members of the Board? MRS. PRICE: Shirley Bradshaw , Mr. R.O. Hunter, John Pankiw , Hazel Allan, Doug Duncan and Mr.

Chris Schubert. MR. CHERNIACK: And the Board 's responsibility - or the Commission , rather, its responsibility is to operate the Civil Service Commission , I thought , and I marvel that the Ministe r has not met with them in some seven months, since she was appointed . How is that workable? MRS. PRICE: I meet with the Commissioner on a regular basis and the senior men that are under him , the Board meets infrequently and I have not met with them . However, we have spent most of our seven months in session which doesn't leave that much time to be meeting with them.

But, however , I'm not going to discuss it any more with you. You can ask the Premier about Mr. Duncan, because I don 't know anything about the man and I'm not going to discuss it any further. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Chairman, I wish the Minister would realize that I stopped asking about Mr. Duncan a little while ago when she said she wouldn't answer any more questions. I am at the moment more concerned about how she relates to the Commission of whom there are about , it seems to me, six or seven members that I heard her list. What is their task and how can they carry on their 3886

... Monday, June 19, 1978 function withou t meeting with or consulting with the Minister responsible? Who runs it, who decides, who makes the decisions about the Civil Service Commission? Is it the Min ister or is it the Commission and the members who are part of it? MRS. PRICE: I would say that after the Board meets, then it's the decision of Cabinet, any changes or any workings of it that are of a major importance. I have not met with the Board and I've met frequently with the Commissioner and the senior servants . MR. CHERNIACK: Well then, I assume that Mr. Newton is still the Chairman, is he? MRS. PRICE: Yes.

MR. CHERNIACK: And then he reports to the Minister on behalf of the Commission itself? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. CHERNIACK: And she has never met any of the members of the Commission? MRS. PRICE: No, not as a body. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am rather surprised that the Minister does not deem it important to meet with the Civil Service Commission as an agency of the Crown appointed by the government, by the Cabinet , to discuss the question of their role and policies of the government with respect to the operations of the Commission.

What is the status of the new Commissioner? MRS. PRICE: What is the status of the new Commission? MR. USKIW: Yes. My understanding , Mr. Chairman , is that that's a temporary arrangement . MRS. PRICE: You mean the Commissioner? MR. USKIW: Yes, the Chairman of the Commission . MRS. PRICE: He is going to be retiring at the end of June. MR. USKIW: All right. Can the Minister tell us what is going to take place with respect to a replacement for Mr. Newton? MRS. PRICE: There hasn't been any designation at this time . MR. USKIW: Yes. Is the governmnnt going to advertise for that position, or .. . ? MRS.

PRICE: I couldn't tell you at this time; it hasn't been discussed. We just got word on Friday that the end of June would be his last and we haven't sat down with the Premier or anyone else . MR. USKIW: Could the Minister indicate to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, just what it is that Mr. Newton, who zas already retired, just what it is that he was able to bring back to the Commission that was not already available at the Commission before his appointment? MRS. PRICE: He was here for 20 years in the Commission . Again, I hadn't known Mr. Newton before, but I know he came back with a wealth of experience .

It was the pleasure of the Premier and the Cabinet that he come in to work in the Civil Service and that's why he was back again. I can't discuss personalities with you because I didn't know them . MR. USKIW: Well, the reason I ask that question, Mr.

Chairman, is because the Minister alluded to what she considered a political role in the hiring process, and that she has now taken steps to remove that by referring the recommendations from the Commission to the Deputy Ministers, which , by the way, are appointed by politicians , by Order-in-Council, so that it doesn't remove it out of the political arena, if she wants to be technical about it. Does that in part explain the reason why Mr . Newton was brought back in after retirement? 3887

Monday, June 19, 1978 MRS. PRICE: As I say, I can't answer that. It was the desire of the Premier and the Cab inet that he be broug ht in and I am not able to answer that for you. I believe they decided that he would be a more competent individual to handle the Commission. He had 20 years of experience. MR. USKIW: Mr . Chairman , I find it rather strange that the Premier of this province is running a one-man show ; that his Ministers don't know why the decisions that are being made are being made with respect to their own departments . I find that incredible , Mr. Chairman. MRS.

PRICE: Well , if you 'd like me to put it bluntly then , he was not found to be the man for the job , that he wasn 't doing the job as well as Mr. Newton , and that's why he was replaced. Does that make you feel better , now that I tell you that? MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Chairman , that's a very interesting statement that the Minister has provided for the Committee , because she told us that she never met the pre vious Commissioner , she didn't know whether she could evaluate his performance one way or the othe r and that she wasn't going to assume any responsibility for removing him from that position .

And now , within minutes , she tells me that there was some question of competence as between the outgoing Commissioner and the incoming one . Mr. Chairman , I have to say, I'm completely confused now. MRS. PRICE: It isn't a decision that I made; I didn 't know the gentlemen; the people that were here, the former MLAs and the Premier knew the capabilit ies of the two gentlemen and I would say that they thought that Mr. Newton 's were overshadowing Mr. Duncan 's. I never met the individual; I never met Mr. Newton before either , so I can 't place judgment on either of the gentlemen. MR.

USKIW: We now have the admission from the Minister as to why all this is taking place . She has told us in this Committee that it is the MLAs now that have had an input into deciding who shall be the Commissioner of the Civil Service . Mr. Chairman , I find that extremely interesting because I don't ever recall MLAs participating in Cabinet decision-making in the appointment of Deputies or Directors or whatever it would be at those senior positions . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order . MR. DAVID BLAKE: Yes. The Member for Lac du Bonnet is reading something into her statements.

The MLAs that were in the House previously ended up in the Cabinet .. . MR. USKIW: That's not a point of order . MR. BLAKE: . and I'm sure that 's what the Minister is referring to. MR. CHAIRMAN: That 's not a point of order . The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. BLAKE: Sorry about that , Mr. Chairman, I'll make sure that I have a proper point of order next time . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister just indicated a moment ago , and if I am wrong I am prepared to be corrected , but as I heard her statement she said that the information and advice came from her MLAs , or the MLAs of the Conservativ e caucus , and that that was the basis for the hiring of Mr . Newton and the basis for lett ing go perhaps the previous commissioner. Now that is not the way that I perceive government operating , Mr. Chairman , and I don 't believe that that is the way it is structurally set up to function .

It is the Prem ier and the Cabinet who determine the senior positions - who they are , the salary range , the term s of reference for tho e positions , and now we find for the first time , I presume , in decades or maybe ever, Mr. Chairman, that the MLAs are now making these decisions . And they are not answerable , Mr. Chairman, other than to their constituents . They are not here in a position where we could cross -examine them ; question their contribution to the government process . I can 't understand how th is government is functioning, Mr . Chairman . MR. SPEAKER: The Minister . MRS.

PRICE: Well , what I was referring to, and I thought that it would be understood, some of them were former Cabinet Ministers , others had just been MLAs and are now Cabinet Ministers. But they were here and knew the functioning of the two ind ividuals. 3888 -.

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The Minister's answers unfortunately raise som e questio ns because I think that she's not particularly accurate when she talks about the functions of the Commission and that of the full-time Commissioner . Now, I think that there is a Civil Service Commission and on that Commission sit a number of people . That Commission has a Chairman . I believe that Chairman in the past used to be Mr. Schubert. I do not believe that Mr. Duncan was Chairman of the Civil Service Commission . That was someone else.

I don 't know who the present Chairman of the Civil Service Comm ission is. Could the Minister tell me who that is right now. MRS. PRICE: Mr . Newton is the Chairman of th Commiss ion. MR. PARASIUK: Is it correct that Mr. Schubert used to be the Chairman of the Commission? MRS. PRICE: When the Chairman was a part-time Chairman . MR. PARASIUK: So Mr. Schubert used to be the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission . Mr. Duncan was then the full-time Commissioner . There were part-time Commissioners and there was one full-time Commissioner . The full-time Commissioner was Mr. Duncan.

Now, the Minister has said that Mr. Duncan was let go as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission . He never was. I assume then that she means that Mr. Schubert was let go as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission , and that at some time Mr. Newton replaced Mr. Schubert as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission . Also at some time Mr. Duncan was terminated , or fired, as full-time Commissioner of the Civil Service . He couldn 't be fired as a Commissioner of the Civil Service. That would require a two-thirds vote of the Legislature.

So what happened was that he was fired as full-time Commissioner of the Civil Service . Could she tell us when Mr. Duncan was fired as full-time Commissioner of the Civil Service? MRS. PRICE: I don 't know the exact date but his full-time work was reduced to part-time some time in October. MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm of the impression, and I think the Minister can produce the documentation to confirm this , that her departmental accountant sent Mr. Duncan a letter either December 12th or December 16th .

Now it's important that you note those dates - it 's in December, not in October , in December - and this is a letter from her departmental accountant to Mr. Duncan since it came from her department because the Minister is the employing authority of the full-time Civil Service Commissioner . She is the employing authority so the letter d dn't come from the Premier; it came from someone supposedly authorized by her as Minister. I came from her department, the department which she is responsible for and accountable for to the Legislature . This letter came from her department .

Could she tell us when the letter was sent to Mr. Duncan and what its contents were? MRS. PRICE: The letter that the Member for Transcona is referring to on December 16th to Mr. Duncan by one of the departmental accountants was a routine payroll matter which was required to make it possible for the ultimate payment of superannuation funds to Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan had informed the Commission as early as October, 1977, that he was not interested in another Civil Service position but would appreciate it if arrangements could be made for him to receive his early retirement and the benefits .

This matter was discussed with Mr. Duncan's solicitor who, it is understood , later made contact with the Civil Service Superannuation Board . It was deemed , necessary to sever Mr. Duncan 's association with the Civil Service in order to facilitate the liberation of pension funds for him. Mr. Duncan has been receiving his pension since April 1st, 1978. MR. PARASIUK: So, Mr . Chairman, what we're finding out is that Mr.

Duncan' who was full-time Civil Service Commissioner , was terminated as full-time Civil Service Commissioner according to the documentat ion, not according to any verbal statements but according to documentation, December 16, 1978. The letter says, " Two weeks ' pay in lieu of notice. " Now , according to the way the Civil Service, the public service of Manitoba, operates , two weeks' pay in lieu of notice is a termination . That is when Mr. Duncan was terminated , and I don 't know if that's for routine payroll accounts or what.

This is a very imp rtann o t item when a Civil Service Commissioner is terminated or fired , and I don 't know if it's handled , frankly in such a sloppy manner, where someone is sent a letter by someone internally within the department saying , " Please accept your payroll cheque. Here it is. It's in lieu of two weeks ' notice. " That is the official termination, and I think 3889

Monday, June 19, 1978 that the documentation that the Min ister has would confirm that that is the official termination date . Is that correct ? MRS . PRICE: It' s debatable whether that letter even had to be sent, but it was sent on the advice of Mr. Tallin , our legislative counsel , to Mr. Goo . MR. PARASIUK : No, to Mr. Duncan . You're getting the firings confused , I think. MRS. PRICE: There was a suggestion from Mr. Tallin to Mr. Good ison that the letter be sent. If you like I can read you the memo from Mr. Tallin to Mr. Goodison . MR. PARASIUK : Please. MRS.

PRICE: " I think that the change in Doug Duncan's position on the Civil Service from full -time employment to part -time emplo yment should tue purposes of the Employment Standards Act as termination of employmen t. This would mean that

Section 35 of tee Employment Standards Act would apply and Mr. Dunca n would be entitled to not less than two weeks ' notice of terminat ion, or two weeks ' pay in lieu of notice. For the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance termination information slip you should indicate that two weeks ' wages were being paid on termination and that amount should be offered to Mr. Duncan at this present time ." If Mr. Duncan hadn't received the termination then he wouldn 't have been able to start collecting his superannuation . That's the only way that he cou l d, and he requested it. MR. PARASIUK: Mr .

Chairman , what we're finding out , I thin k, is that the legal counsel recommended to the Government of Manitoba in order to clarify any proced ure that possibly wasn 't followed with respect to the letter of the law which possibly could have been illegal, or conceivably just was administratively counter to the Administrative Manual , tha t t his letter be sent out and that, from what the Legislative Counsel says, is the actual term inati on. That is the termination , it's December 16th, and I think that does bring into question the entir e way in which Mr. Duncan was terminated , and this is quite ironic , Mr.

Chairman , because we are talking about ensuring that the Civil Service operates properly and we find that he was imp roperly released , improperly terminated and legal counsel , who was acting , thankfully , on behalf of the people of Manitoba because the full-time Commissioner is responsible , ultimately , to the Legislature. It was the Legal Counsel of the Legislature that sent a letter advising the government as to how it could clear up the mess of its improperly terminating Mr. Duncan .

And the point is then that if the Legal Counsel has said that this was necessary as of December 16, 1978, raises tremendous questions about how he was terminated , whether this was done fairly , and I assume that that is something that Mr. Duncan will in fact be pursuing with the means that he has at his disposal , because at this stage it would appear that he was improperly terminated . It also raises the question of who was operating as the admin istrative head of the Civil Service Commission from October 24 to December 16, the legal date on which Mr. Duncan was terminated.

Was anyone appointed full-time Commiss ioner of the Civil Service Commission from October 24 to December 16, 1978? MR. CHAIRMAN: I might mention to the Membe r for Trans cona that earlier the Member for St. Johns asked the Minister a number of question s relating to Mr. Duncan , and at that time she said that she was of the opinion , meaning the Ministe r, that those questions should be answered by the First Minister , the Premie r, and that she was not in a p osition to elaborate any further on Mr. Duncan , and so why I'm mentioning this to you is that the Member for St.

Johns did ask the Minister a number of questions relating to Mr . Dunca n, and so som e o f your questions have been asked already . Whether they have been answered satisfactoril y or not , I can't ... MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman , you know , with all due respect, I was sittin9 through those questions . They were questions about assessment of Mr . Duncan and the present Minister , who is responsible for the Civil Service Commission , has said that although she is respons ible she couldn't answer the questions and that somehow the Premier would have to answer those particular questions .

Now, I'm not asking questions of that type ; I'm asking questions regarding how the full -time Civil Service Commissioner was terminated . I'm asking question that relate directly to her legal responsibility as Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act. It's not the First Ministe r who is responsible for The Civil Service Act; it's the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission.

Now, if you are saying that we can't ask questions pertaining to her responsibilities, and if she is saying that she will duck her accountabili ty to us in that respect by just saying , " Well , ask that of the First Minister, " I think that's quite unfair of her, and I don 't think she means that. I think that she is 3890

Monday, June 19, 1978 willing to answer questions pertaining to her responsibilities. And the only questions I'm asking is, who was the full-time Civil Service Commissioner as of October 24? Was anyone else appointed full-time Civil Service Commissioner between October 24 and December 16? She was appointed Minister October 24; surely she would know if someone was appointed as her full-time administrative head between October 24 and December 16. That is something that I don 't expect the First Minister to know ; that is something that I expect the Minister responsible for the department to know.

Can she tell me if anyone was appointed full-time Civil Service Commissioner between October 24 and December 16? MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the Minister responds , I might mention to the Member for Transcona that the reason for my comment was for guidance. I never made any reference to repetition or anything else; I just was pointing out to him the series of questions that were asked by one of his colleagues, the Member for St. Johns , and the fact that the Minister said that she was not in a position to answer some of those questions. So it was strictly for guidance . MR. PARASIUK: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister.

MRS. PRICE: Merlin Newton was appointed the Commissioner at the same time that Mr. Duncan was demoted and he was hired on a six-month basis and he has extended it until the end of the session, as he said. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, can we get dates on that? Could she tell us when Mr. Newton was appointed full-time Civil Service Commissioner? MRS. PRICE: Yes, I can get the date for you. MR. USKIW: Could she also tell us when Mr. Duncan was fired as full-time Civil Service Commissioner? I think it's very important.

We may find that we had two supposed full-time Civil Service Commissioners if you follow the letter of the law and if you follow the law. Secondly, could she tell us when the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission was terminated or just removed from that position as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission? Can she also tell us when Mr. Newton was appointed as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission replacing Mr. Schubert? MRS. PRICE: Yes, I will get the exact dates for the Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman, I think the information prov ided by the Minister to date indicates that I don't think she was clear about the structure, operations and responsibilities of her department , the one that we are presently reviewing, and I think it is very important that the Minister responsible acquaint herself fully with those operations and know exactly what the divisions of responsibility are between the Minister, the Civil Service Commission, and the full-time Commissioner. I think it's very important that she acquaint herself fully with The Civil Service Act. It may turn out that Mr.

Duncan was illegally fired; it may turn out that The Civil Service Act has been contravened . I think it's quite important also for the Minister on taking a portfolio, and if she is assigned another portfolio some time in the future, I hope she would sit down immediately with the senior staff of that department in order to be briefed on what the division of responsibilities is. She is telling us that she hasn't met with the Civil Service Commission ... MRS. PRICE: I did not say that - I said I haven't met with the Board. I've met with the Commissioner and the senior members of the Commission . MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , if the Minister has the right to interrupt I certainly would like a reciprocal right to interrupt her when she is speaking. The point is, I said very clearly that she didn't meet with the Commission - I didn't say Commissioner ; I said the Civil Service Commission - and there is a distinction between the two. There is a definite distinction between the two that the Minister doesn't recognize or understand. The Civil Service Commission is a Board, it's a board of people who hear appeals and generally comment on the conduct of the Civil Service Commission .

There is a full-time member of that Commission who is responsible for the day-to-day operations of the Civil Service, and that 's the Commissioner. Now, she hasn't met with the Commission; she is indicating that she didn't meet with Mr. Duncan, and yet, if you look at the Act, it would appear that between October 24, 1977 and December 16, 1977, the termination date of Mr. Duncan, she 3891

Monday, June 19, 1978 has admitted that she didn't meet with Mr. Duncan. She didn't feel it imperative for her to meet with the head of that department to ask that person what the status of that department was, what the activities were , what the division of responsibilities between the Minister, Civil Service Commission, full- time Commissioner and staff of the Civil Service , might be; what the division of responsibilities between those bodies and management committee might be, and there is some confusion and it's very important to try and determine the differences in roles and responsibility.

I think that what happened is that the Minister might have heard some negative things said about Mr. Duncan and decided to avoid him , but in avoiding the full-time Commissioner, I think she didn't get a clear enough and accurate enough impression of what her functions were as Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission . I don 't know if she met with Mr. Newton in that interval between October 24, 1977 and December 16, 1977 - that's a period of about seven or eight weeks. And if you can recall , Mr.

Chairman, there were a number of other civil servants with full Civil Service rights under The Civil Service Act who were fired during that period of time . I don't know who was observing what went on at that time . Certainly the Minister wasn't that closely involved ; certainly the full-time - legally full-time - Civil Service Commissioner wasn 't involved . The Minister wouldn't meet with that person and I think that we had a vacuum for seven or eight weeks, and that's very critical, if we've had that vacuum because there were a number of civil servants who were fired.

So I think rather than trying to make the Civil Service operate properly , I think what's happened is that the Civil Service has been treated very improperly; I think the Commission itself has been undercut.

I think that the status of civil servants in Manitoba under The Civil Service Act has been put under a cloud , and I think it is very important for the Minister, before she casts stones about what was taking place in the past , to very carefully review her own behaviour and the behaviour of her government and her colleagues with respect to the Civil Service Commissioner and with respect to the full-time Commissioner, and determine whether in fact there was anything that was done that was illegal or anything that was improper with respect to the procedures of the adm inistrative manual , because this could have very , very serious repercussions right down the line with respect to every one of those civil servants who may have been improperly fired, and it also will have tremendous repercussions with respect to the case of the deposed or terminated full-time Civil Service Commissioner, when I think he seeks to get some redress from the government for its improper way of firing him.

MRS. PRICE: I understand that it is on a very rare occasion that my predecessor or anyone else in a ministerial position has been meeting with the Board . They have worked through the Commissioner and the senior staff, such as I have done . The Board meets something like once a month in an evening and they bring their findings to the Commissioner and I, in turn, have met with them , so I don't think there is any more neglect now than there has been in the past. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, you know, I find it really surprising . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Just before the Member for Transcona carries on, it's 4:30, and in accordance with Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30 having arrived, I am interrupting the proceedings of the Committee for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m . I have on the list the Members for Transcona , St. George , Selkirk and Winnipeg Centre as SUPPLY - DEPT. OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMANMr. Abe Kovnats: I would direct the honourable members to Page 64, Department of Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services. Resolution No. 95, 1. General Administration - the Honourable Minister . MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, in tabling the Estimates for the Department of Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services, I would like to mform the House of the following minor errors in the printing of the Estimates . On Page 63, the last line of 1977-78 Estimates reads $40,692,300 .00; it should read , Mr . Chairman , $40,962 ,300. The same transposition of figures occurs on Page 68; on the left-hand side of the bottom line, it reads $40,692,300, and it should read $40,962,300 .00.

In presenting the Estimates , I would like to advise the honourable members that the Estimates presented for the Year Ending March 31st, 1978, were presented as the Department of Northern Affairs , and separately , as the Department of Renewable Resources and Transportation Services. For the Year Ending March 31st , 1979, the Estimates of these departments are submitted in a combined form as authorized by Management Committee of Cabinet , and the Department of Finance, 3892

Monday, June 19, 1978 and as shown on Page 63. To reconcile, the Statement on Page 63 indicates the 1977-78 Main Estimates of Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services; Allocation of General Salary Increase to these departments in the Allocation of funds from Canada-Manttoba DREE Agreements to both departments. Transfers of functions which have been made in preparing the Main Estimates from the 1978-79 year indicate that C $554,600 budgeted during the 1977-78 year for the ommunity Planning Services was transferred in the budget exercise to the Department of Municipal Affairs.

An amount of $100,600 budgeted in the 1977-78 Department of Northern Affairs Estimates for financial co-ordination of DREE Agreements was transferred during the budget exercise, to the Department of Finance. Similarly , an amount of $200 ,000 and 12 staff man years for the Home Advisory Program, budgeted under Northern Affairs, was transferred to the Department of Health and Social Development.

The transfer of these functions results in a 1977-78 Adjusted Vote for both departments of $33,487 ,800, to which Schecule " B" voted in The Loan Act of 1977 in the amount of $3,431,600 for Northern Affairs , and $1 ,806,300 under General Development Agreement, and $2,236,600 under Renewable Resources, adds to a total Reconciliation of the 1977-78 Estimates of the corrected figure that I gave you, being $40,962,300 .00.

On the basis of the Reconciliation provided in the Estimates, which include for the first time Capital Budgets noted as Item No. 9, Construction of Physical Assets, the total for Northern Affairs and Renewable Resources and Transportation Services, is $34,340,800 , as compared to the previous year 's budget of $40,962,300 .00.

I would also advise that all services provided by the two departments in the Year Ending March 31st, 1978, with the exception of the Municipal Planning functio the DREE financial co-ordination and the Home Advisory Program, which represented $845,200 , are now provided under one or all of the divisional structures displayed in the Estimates . I would advise that the combined budget and the structure of the departments was arrived at through a detailed review of programming including in many areas, application of the principle of zero-based budgeting .

I hope that the members will be prepared to review the Estimates in detail, and that I will be able to readily answer and demonstrate the organizational changes that have been affected in the department.

At the same time, I hope that the honourable members will bear with me because of major changes and shifts that have been necessitated by providing a consolidation of divisional responsibilities and financial control, which were necessitated by certain overlapping of functions and objectives in the two departments , and unfavourable reports of the Provincial Auditor in the operation and accountability in certain areas. I hope that these remarks will not be construed as a blanketccriticism of the administration of the department, or any person connected thereto.

I merely mention them as being factual observations and recommendations on which the department has taken effective action to correct. Regarding the policy changes which may be reflected by the budget Estimates, I have already made observations on the programs and functions that were transferred to other departments and pointed out that all services previously provided by the two departments are provided noz by one or other divisions within the two departments.

Policy changes reflecting directly on the budget in the area of fish and wildlife include a substantial reduction in Capital Budget Allowances for Land Acquisition and for wildlife purposes. It is the intent and the policy of the department to co-operate as much as possible with private landowners in creating and maintaining wildlife habitat. This is of particular importance in the southwestern part of the province where 90 percent - plus of lands are privately held .

The department has also adopted a policy of carrying out fishermen 's training in local communities which resulted in the closure of the National Training Centre , a facility which has served to train some Lkke Winnipeg fishermen in the past , but which we feel has now served its purpose and would require extensive travel costs, and operating costs, to service northern and remote fishermen. In the area of Resource Development and Employee Services, the department has adopted policies which would permit ownership and management of certain Crown corporations by private interests.

This measure has tended to reduce substantially the administrative and overhead costs formerly borne by the departments in this area. In Administration , the department has moved effectively to consolidate two rather large administration groups and to adopt streamlined accounting audit functions, vouchering procedures and financial control. In Construction and Transportation , the department has moved to rationalize and review the northern transportation infrastructure and a report to be prepared jointly with DREE and due in September of this year will provide additional direction to these programs.

The department has, in keeping with policies of the present government, adopted a policy of restraint on air travel resulting in a reduction of approximately 45 percent in aircraft usage by employees of government and a proportionate decrease in the number of aircraft and personnel 3893

Monday, June 19, 1978 in air division has been made accordingly . Further measures will include the examination of the total requirements of the division , its method of operation and the most econo mic means of meeting the transportation needs of the province . In Community Serv ices , the department has effected a major consolidati on of the structures formerly established and established a regional system which will encompass all aspects of services to northern and remote communities .

The department has, through a process of operat ional review and elimination of duplication, established a more uniform and tailored management structure where previously the departments were served by a Deputy Minister , two Associate Deputy Ministers , three Assistant Deputy Ministers and four positions equivalent to Assistant Deputy Ministers . The new structure will include one Deputy Minister , two Assistant Deputy Ministers , and seven senior Directors .

These changes will, in addition to reducing the heavy upper and middle-level management structures borne previously, result in a focussing of authority , responsibil ity and accountability within the two departments. Finally , the department has moved effectively to exercise restraints in all areas of its operation and to assist in the overall need of the province to reduce its expenditure, staffing and unwanted or unneeded programming. I would like at this moment , Mr.

Chairman , to acknowledge the positive attitude and the dedication of many of the people within the department who have demonstrated a willingness and a positive attitude towards improving the level of efficiency and services of this department. Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)

(2) Salaries and Wages-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a few comments to the introductory remarks that in the MR. JORGENSON: That first item has now been passed over and we're on the Administrative item. I would not want my honourable friend to assume that he can speak now on the Minister's Salary, because that is not the case. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman , in every other Estimates of every other department the people on this side of the House have in fact commented on the Minister 's instructions.

Is the Minister now enforcing some kind of closure against their own procedures that have been carried on in other Estimates? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Chairman , that has always been the practice. The item that my honourable friend can speak on is the following item , the Administrative item , not the Minister's Salary; that is the last item that is discussed, and my honourable friend should know that; he's been in this House long enough to understand that . MR.

McBRYDE: I've been here long enough to know that the Honourable Government House Leader is often incorrect in what he says in the House, and so that's why I question what he says now, whether it is correct or not. I am aware , Mr. Chairman , that in the past the members on this side of the House have had considerable latitude after the Minister's introductory remarks, to make comments on the Minister's introductory remarks, and I'd like you to so rule if that's not the situation. MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Chairman , I will . MR. McBRYDE: If he's now changed the procedure . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . MR.

JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman , I will repeat again . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: The rule , as stated in the Rule Book , if my honourable friend will take care to look at it, suggests that the Minister introduces his Estimates on the first item, that is, Item 95, 1.(a), then that item is delayed and my honourable friend then has an opportunity to make a few comments on Item 1.(

b) Administrative Support Services . But I assume, Mr. Chairman , and you neglected to indicate , that we are on Item 1.(b). Item 1.(

a) is not passed; it is simply delayed until the end of the Estimates, and that 's the last item that is considered. I just want that 3894

Monday, June 19, 1978 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. We are now considering . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the honourable members of the House . On all the other Estimates that we have gone through, after the Minister 's introductory statements we have moved to the very next item , which is Salaries and Wages , but not on the Minister 's Compensation. We are on Item (a)

(2) Salaries and Wages - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

McBRYDE: There was a point of order on the floor and I wanted to speak to it before you said anything, and in speaking to it I'd like to quote from the Debates and Proceedings , Page 3250, in the Estimates of the Department of Labour, and I quote from the Chairman of that Committee, on that page: "I would say to you and other members, the Minister, like most Ministers , makes an open ing statement which embraces all aspects of their particular department , and then what we usually do is go to the critic for the opposition, and that person sort of responds to that opening statement.

What we have been doing in a number of other department Estimates is sort of going to everybody on the opposition who wishes to respond to that opening statement , and then from that point on we try to allow the items in the booklet item by item . We don't always succeed in following them item by item, but that is our wish, according to the Chairman, your colleague in the other departments ." Now, Mr. Chairman, I'm quite prepared to make that response within the context of the item before us, but I do intend to respond to the statements of the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR.

JORGENSON: I have no objection to my honourable friend responding, but he's going to be responding on the next item, which has been customary since the rules were adopted in 1975, and I don't know why he insists on changing the rules at this stage because the practice has been, always, that once the Minister introduces his Estimates we move on to the next item and then at the conclusion of the Estimates , after all the items are passed , then we move back to the first item and open discussion then is held on that particular item.

But on the Administrative item, my honourable friend can, and that's the proper occasion , when he makes the remarks that he now chooses to make. And I'm suggesting , Mr. Chairman, that the Minister's Salary now be delayed or deferred until the conclusion of the consideration of the Estimates, when we will come back to it; that's all I'm suggesting ; I'm not attempting to preclude my honourable friend from making whatever remarks he chooses to make, but he will not make them on this particular item . MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, that's exactly what I intended to do, and I'm not sure now why the member spoke at all or raised the point at all, because all he did was repeat the procedure that everyone understands and which it appeared that he didn 't understand when he first spoke. So, Mr. Chairman, in addressing myself to the first item and the remarks of the Minister in his opening statement, I want to talk, Mr. Chairman, on the general administration of the department since the coming into office of this government, the general administration of the department since the coming into office of this particular Minister. Mr.

Chairman, there are three main points I want to make in discussing this item and in discussing the opening comments of the Minister of Northern Affairs, and what I want to do, Mr. Chairman, is trace how the present Minister of Northern Affairs and Resources has sold out northern Manitoba in his administration of this department , how the present Minister of Northern Affairs and Resources has misled the people in regard to what 's been happening, and that the present Minister of Northern Affairs has completely mismanaged this department and, Mr.

Chairman, in order to dv this, since there are so many examples that I have to give, I decided that probably the easiest approach would be to proceed in chronological order in terms of what has been happening with the Department of Northern Affairs and Resources since last October. One of the first items that was dealt with by the new Minister of Northern Affairs was the shutdown of the Easterville Harvesting Company . The Easterville Harvesting Company, Mr.

Chairman, was created throug h close field co-operation of the two then separate departments of Northern Affairs through the extension services, and then with assistance from the Resources in the actual setup and management of a fence post harvesting operation in agreement with ManFor at that particular time . Mr. Chairman, this was one of those ventures in northern Manitoba where it was not 100 percent economically viable if you only considered the economics of that operation.

It's one of those operations where the previous administration had a cost benefit study done in terms of the total cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba , and the conclusion of that study was that the operation was indeed beneficial or passed a social cost benefit analysis in terms of the total cost to the people of Manitoba. The very first action taken by the department , even slightly before the taking of office by the new government . was the shutt ing down of that operation , the phasing down of that operation 3895

Monday, June 19, 1978 and then the total shutdown of that operation . Mr. Chairman , t his is one of the many examples where we will see that the economic activity, the close down of job s available in particular communities , has had serious effects on the community , and in fact , an increase in costs, an increase to the taxpa yers of the Provinc e of Mani tob a, and therefore , is mismanagement of the department and of t his par ticula r projec t.

Shortly after this operation was shut down , the department worked with the people there , and the community worked with the department to try and see if there were ways that cou ld be found to continue the operation . This was not possible ; there were some prOblems in regard to the sale of fence posts because the market did dec line quite drast ically after the initial start -up of the operation and the department took some time to find markets within the United States , but this they finally did , having the treatment done in other areas of the province . Mr.

Chairman , this January and February , t here was a special meeting in the community of Easterville to deal with all thedelinquency , all the crime, and the crimes of violence and aggression in that community . Mr . Chairman , I would say that in this case and in other cases that we will look at during the examination of these Estimates , that the lack of economic development, the lack of employment , is a direct cause of social disruption and soci al problems which in the end cost the people of Manitoba more money , more money than a subsidy would cost to continue this kind of economic development operation .

The next example of the efficient administrat ion by the present Minister of Northern Affairs , was the classic case of the missing tapes . When there was a general meeting at Thompson, Manitoba , on the INCO closure, the Municipal Affairs Department instructed the Department of Education to keep track of these proceedings , because they were concerned about Thompson and the fate of Thompson, through the use of videotapes .

The Minister felt it necessary, after appearing on the tape on Sunday , to rush into the office on Monday morning and take the tapes away from the FOCUS office in Thompson and bring them to the City of Winnipeg . Mr. Chairman, I was not at that meeting, but I understand that the Minister did not look very good on those tapes and that is probably the main reason why the tapes were removed from the office and not available to people in Thompson .$ The next example, Mr. Chairman , is the problem of the senior staff within the Department of Northern Affairs .

As the Minister mentioned in his opening remarks on the executive administration of the department , there was a Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs and there were a number of other persons who would be classified as ADMs although that's not the official classification that they had.

None of these people were political people, none of them were politically active but all were executive people within the Department of Northern Affairs , having the function of Deputy Minister , or head of the local government development, or head of engineering services, or responsibility for the northern manpower corps , each one at an ADM level.

Professional civil servants whom the Minister for some reason found the necessity to force out of the department; to force them out of his department because for some reason they had been effective civil servants when the NDP were in office , and I can see no other reason for him taking that step , taking that move with the senior staff . Mr.

Chairman , I think that the effectiveness of these senior staff can be shown in that all of them were immediately offered jobs with other governments in other senior positions, but in fact two or three of these people chose to opt out of government services because they were being forced out of the department , and go into private industry. Two of them are doing very successfully now in private industry and they tell me they find it very easy to operate in private industry and that they are able to make considerable money operating in that regard .

The others, as I mentioned , have accepted the senior administrative positions with other government departments . So, Mr .

Chairman , it is perhaps because these senior people were forced out, and forced out shortly after the coming to office of the present Minister , these people who had served the Province of Manitoba for some time and had done a good job in carrying out the functions assigned to them, and who had been involved in the executive of the department and in the decision-making level of the Department of Northern Affairs , it is perhaps because these people were forced out or undermined or had people placed over top of them , that we now see many mistakes and many problems , admin istrative and management problems, within the Department of Northern Affairs and within the Department of Resources.

And some of those mistakes will come to light as we proceed with the consideration of these Estimates , Mr. Chairman . In some sort of chronological order , the next item that the present Minister had to deal with was the Churchill Prefab Housing Plant which had operated for many years. In fact , when making his announcement on the closure of the plant , the Minister did not have the correct date for the start-up in the operation of the Churchill Prefab Housing Plant , which was init iated by the citizens of Churchill.

The citizens of Churchill came to the Provinc ial Government and said there is a redevelopment going on in our community , there is to be a redevelopment of Churchill ; the province and the Federal Government have signed an agreement for the redevelopment of Churchill, and 3896

Monday, June 19, 1978 we don 't want to be left out of the employment , we don 't want to be left out of this development, as has been the case in the past when outside cont ractors have come into Churchill and carried out most of the work to be done in Churchill. Therefore , Mr.

Chairman , in conjunction and co-operation with the people of Churchill, we began to move into the area of prefab housing in the community of Churchilland providing employment for a considerable number of people in that community who had not previously had steady employment, who had not previously had steady employment , people that had basically been dependent on the government for a number of years , especially those who were relocated from remote areas into the community of Churchill. Now , Mr. Chairman , there were initial problems with the operation of that plant.

The manager hired for the operation of the plan t was a local contractor. The workload and the number of houses to be constructed increased at a rate , I believe , that was beyond the managerial capacity . Although he was very capable of the small operation, when the negotiation of large contracts came in, there were cons iderable losses experienced by the Churchill Prefab Plant. Those were about three years ago , Mr. Chairman , three to four years ago when the fairly substantial losses took place in the operation of that plant.

At that time the Department of Northern Affairs asked the Provincial Auditor , made a request of the Provincial Auditor, to come in and assist us in resetting up the administrative mechanism and the control mechanisms within the operation of that plant and external consultants were hired to assist in the control of that plant and in the estimating and bidding operation of the Churchill Prefab Plant. So in the last two years the operation operated at fairly near, fairly near a break -even point but still had losses from the previous years that had to be dealt with . Again , Mr.

Chairman, the government made a decision to close down the operation . In this case, the basic decision was to close down the operation because the subsidy that was given to the operation - and the subsidy was basically, Mr. Chairman , in the form of manpower training grants that were cost-shared 60 percent by the Federal Government and 40 percent by the Provincial Government - because they no longer wished to pay a small subsidy in order to keep people employed , in order to keep people contributing through their income tax, in order to keep people productive in the community of Churchill. Mr.

Chairman , it is somewhat ironic that the present Minister of Northern Affairs got very upset when the CBC was going to close down their station, their local station , in the community of Churchill. The Minister of Northern Affairs made protest to the Federal Government and the Federal Government said, "Well, it's more efficient to move the operation out of Churchill. It will cost a little less money to move the operation out of Churchill. " Mr. Chairman, for the sake of some assistance or some subsidy to the Churchill Prefab Plant this Minister made a decision to close down that operation and, Mr.

Chairman, the results in Churchill are the same and will be the same when the final close-down takes place as in other remote communities where people do not have the opportunity to be employed, where people do not have the opportunity to work productively and contribute to the society in which they live. Mr. Chairman I'm not sure I got the chronological order in place but one of the things that happened then in the Department and in the government as a whole, was the implementation of a Task Force , the task force to look at overall government operation. Mr.

Chairman, that overall task force caused a considerable amount of slow down of production within the government services in the Province of Manitoba as people began to become concerned over what was going to happen to their job , what was going to happen to their department , what was going to happen to their

section of the operation. When people are in that situation , they just don't produce any more. They spend most of the time trying to protect themselves and ensure that they have some form of continued employment. The other thing that happens , Mr.

Chairman , is that there are many people who, because of this insecurity, then start to run to the Minister or run to the Task Force and try and beat out their colleagues and their fellow civil servants by somehow spreading tales or suck-holing or whatever method they find that might be the most effective in terms of maintaining their own job or attempting to ensure their promotion . But , Mr. Chairman , the biggest insult to the people of northern Manitoba came in the Task Force Report , the Report on Government Organization and Economy , Volume II, April, 1978, Page 124. Mr .

Chairman, this is talking about the local government development, the aspect of the Department of Northern Affairs to assist remote communities for the first time to move into their own local municipal government in northern Manitoba and the Task Force, in their enlightened review, and in their one-page

summary of the Department of Northern Affairs, have a sentence in there in the last paragraph which goes : "The local government development division appears to be the case of too much, too soon. Services to the communities should continue but at a reduced level, one which local communit ies can absorb and accept. " Mr. Chairman , I don't know if I would be too strong in using certain words to describe that Task 3897

Monday, June 19, 1978 Force Report in relation to the northern communities but what it says is that the people in northern Manitoba are incapable , in the remote communites are incapable of running their own communities . They are incapable of running their own communities. They can do it in the City of Winnipeg or they can do it in Mo den or they can do it in The Pas, or they can do it in the Local Government District of Piney , but in remote northern communities, people are incapable of running their own affairs . Mr. Chairman , I think that shows the southe

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-66a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 66a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c53c31d5cf7397dd28c385ce83f28d1cec27fe01

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