ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of .... Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL XXXI No. 36A -2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 29 MARCH, 1983. Printed by the Office of Ille 0.-is Printer. Province of MenilOOll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Alb ert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W .J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlo tte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW. Hon. Samuel WA LDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East TUXAdO Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 29 March, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Wa lding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . The Honourable Minister of Finance. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make, I have copies. I am pleased to be able to announce changes to our province's Competition Assistance Grant Programs effective April 1, 1983.

As honoura ble members will know the Competition Assistance Grant Program was introduced last May to assist Manitoba service stations operating within 60 kilometres of a competing Saskatchewan service station. In 1982-83 approximately $2 million was spent to assist the service stations in this zone. In its first year of operation the Competition Assistance Grant Program was hailed as a success by those service stations it was designed to assist, but there were some difficulties encountered during the initial year. We have attempted to resolve those difficulties through the changes I am announcing today.

First, the number of assistance zones within the 60 kilometre distance will increase from four to six. The difference in price between zones will be reduced to approximately 1 cent per litre. This will, we believe, encourage Manitoba motorists to purchase locally rather than drive to another Manitoba town for cheaper gas. Grants on diesel fuel will now only be available in the zones that actually adjoin Saskatchewan, and I might add that there is no provincial tax on farm diesel fuel so it doesn't apply to farm diesel fuel which isn't taxed in the first place.

The major buyers of diesel fuel are interprovincial and in-province trucking firms, road builders, mining companies and others who cannot usually drive their equipment any distance just to fuel up. The price assistance for each of the six zones is as follows: (

a) Flin Flon, gasoline 7 cents per litre, diesel 8 cents per litre; (

b) O to 12 kilometres, gasoline 5.2 cents per litre, diesel 6 cents per litre; (c) 12.1 to 24 kilometres, gasoline 4.2 cents per litre; (d) 24.1 to 36 kilometres, gasoline 3.2 cents per litre; (e) 36.1 to 48 kilometres, gasoline 2.2 cents per litre; (f) 48. 1 to 60 kilometres, gasoline 1.2 cents per litre.

There will be a reduction in the grant levels of 2 cents per litre to bulk plants and key lot operators as compared to grants to service station operators in the same zone, which will in part recognize the existing retail price differential between the small individual sale from service stations and the much larger individual sale from key lots and bulk plants. Again, I make the observation that this does not impact on farm fuels. Finally, I am pleased to announce that the volume limit or ceiling on grants will be dropped.

It is expected that service station operators will pass on the full amount of their grant through their pump prices once they receive gasoline in April. Revised grant application forms will be forwarded soon to eligible operators, but old forms may be used to claim grants until such time as new forms are received. The total cost of the Competition Assistance Grant Program for 1983-84 is expected to be $2.5 million. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do thank the Minister for recognizing some of the problems that we've had in the country along the Man itoba­ Saskatchewan border with his competition assistance grants and while he has made certain changes here, he certainly hasn't made some changes that are going to rectify the problem. In fact, the distance should be related from the Saskatchewan-Manitoba border. That's where the service stations relate from and instead of that they relate from, say, Roblin to the closest gas station in Saskatchewan and that is very unfair. Mr.

Speaker, I also recognize that we have the same problems at the USA border with our constituents here who reside in those seats along the USA border. I'm surprised he's not addressing himself to those problems, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, while I recognize the change, at the same time I recognize the many problems and the concerns that are out there in the country regarding this matter, where all kinds of people are going across the border and buying gasoline in Saskatchewan, and well they should. A buck's a buck. I still don't think that a wall should be built between Manitoba and Saskatchewan on tax matters.

I think we're the same kind of people; we drive the same roads; we wear the same kind of clothes, and I don't see why this government has to apply these taxes. It's absolutely unfair to the people who reside in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make. Mr. Speaker, I indicated last week that I was awaiting a report from the Manitoba Health Services Commission with regard to the unfortunate death of a patient while enroute from Flin Flon to Winnipeg. The Manitoba Health Services Commission have completed their preliminary review.

There would appear to be problems with internal communication and control at the hospital. Based on this review, the Commission are recommending: (1) the Minister of Health ask the College of Physicians and Surgeons to review the medical management of this patient; (2) that the Commission investigate methods whereby formal courses on critical care nursing could be held in rural ICU units by using the services of a traveling ICU nursing instructor; and (3) that the Commission's nursing standard> officers make a full review of staffing in the 1183

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 Nursing Department of the Flin Flon Hospital with special reference to the ICU Casualty Department. This recommendation, Mr. Speaker, refers to the fact that

whereas a particular staffing allowance was approved by the Commission, the hospital had recently made a decision to use this allowance in such a way that full 24-hour coverage of RNs was not available to them. I have accepted these recommendations. The Commission will be meeting with the governing board of the Flin Flon Hospital shortly to review the operation of this unit, and formalize policies concerning the operation of the unit. Also, Mr. Speaker , as a result of some recent comments made by Vice-president of the St.

Boniface Hospital on the CBC program, "24 Hours," regarding lack of intensive care training resources for rural Manitoba, I had the situation investigated and the situation is as follows: Approximately one year ago, the budgets of the Health Sciences Centre and the St. Boniface Hospital were increased by $1 50,000 to provide for additional training of intensive care nurses for Winnipeg hospitals. This adjustment resulted in a budget for the two hospitals for this function, of about $750,000.00. Previous to this adjustment, the St.

Boniface Hospital had requested additional funding support for their ICU Unit, to provide training for nurses tor rural Manitoba. Subsequently, the Manitoba Health Services Commission and the St. Boniface Hospital undertook a survey in rural Manitoba to determine the need for such a service and whether it would be supported by rural hospitals. MHSC and St. Boniface Hospital were informed by these rural hospitals that they were not supportive of a training program to be conducted in St. Boniface Hospital for rural intensive care nurses.

They generally gave as their reasons the fact that the type of intensive care nursing provided in the tertiary hospitals differ substantially from that which is required in rural Manitoba. Also, they pointed out that the majority of their intensive care nurses were married women with families who would not want to come down to Winnipeg for this training even for a short period of time. It would appear; therefore, Mr.

Speaker, that the most appropriate method of providing adequate training for intensive care nurses in rural Manitoba, is to send instructors out to the various hospitals that have intensive care units. As indicated earlier, this is one of the recommendations included in the Commission's recent report. In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, I will be following up on the recommendations of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, not only in regard to their request that the College of Physicians and Surgeons become involved in this particular incident, but also that the recommendations relating to better internal control and communication at the hospital be implemented as soon as possible. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for his report on this incident.

As all members of the House are aware, Manitobans have been waiting with some anticipation, a report of an official nature from the Minister of Health and from the government with respect to the recent tragedy and unfortunate situation relative to the staffing patterns at Flin Flon General, in particular their intensive care or critical care unit. I must say that the incident points up the necessity and the requirement for the kind of investigation and the kind of initiative that the Minister has announced to the House today and so it comes as a welcome announcement.

It is unfortunate that the tragedy that occurred had to take place before the problems with respect to intensive care staffing in certain northern hospitals and northern communities were brought to the attention of the Health Services Commission and the Minister's office. I hope that other northern hospitals can assure their communities and their health care consumers that their staffing patterns and communications patterns with the Commission and with the government are secure and firm, and there is no threat to health and safety among their populations. The one thing missing, it seems to me at this point, Mr.

Speaker, is a commitment on the part of the Minister and the government to re-establish the Standing Committee on Nursing Manpower, to assign that body to the critical task of monitoring nursing supply, both in terms of general nursing and intensive care nursing on an ongoing basis. Unless that difficult challenge in professional health manpower staffing is met and monitored on an ongoing basis, I don't think that these cyclical shortages and problems can ever be overcome.

So I would urge the Minister to add to the other steps that he's announced today, the step of restoring the Standing Committee on Nursing Manpower and charging it to recommence its work immediately with the objective in sight of resolving the cyclical nursing staffing shortage, from which all jurisdictions in North America chronically suffer. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I'm delighted to be able to indicate that National Wildlife Week, which was inaugurated by a Wildlife Act passed in 1947, will, as has taken place each year, be a week in which Canadians are reminded of the value of wildlife. The dates for Wildlife Week this year are April 10th to April 16th, and that date includes the birthdate of the person who is considered to be the father of conservation in Canada, Jack Miner, whose birthday was April 10th. This year's theme is Wildlife Management or man's and woman's positive effect on wildlife for the benefit of the species and themselves.

There is an annual poster and poem contest held. Information packages have been sent to all the schools in Manitoba; 10 winners from each province will be selected for the national competition. The grand prize for that competition is a trip for two, the student and the parent, to the 1984 Canadian Wildlife Convention. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , as members of the opposition, we simply want to associate ourselves with 11 84

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 the announcement and to acknowledge the importance that wildlife plays in our envir onment and our responsibility to so managing it that it continues to play that importance in future years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Report of the Administrator, pursuant to

Section 29.1 of The Fatality Inquiries Act. This is the list of deaths in jails, prisons and institutions as defined in The Mental Health Act for the year 1982. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... Before we reach Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have seven members of the First Niverville Boy Scout Troop under the direction of Mr. Brunskill. The scouts are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Shoal lake Indian Band Proposal MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. In view of the statement by the lawyer for the Shoal Lake Indian Band over one month ago that the Band's development proposal would be filed within 30 to 45 days, would the Minister advise whether the Band's proposal has been filed and, if not, when does he expect it to be filed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm aware of that commitment we tnade on behalf of the Indian Band by their solicitor.

As far as I know, I have not been informed that that proposal has been tabled to date with the Feder al Environme ntal Review Organization and I can't comment on when I expect it to be, though I would hope that the Band would keep to its word and file within 45 days of the date of that statement. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of Mayor Norrie's position and the City of Winnipeg's position that no road to the Band is required, could the Minister guarantee to this House that no road will be built connecting Band 40? HON. E. KO STYRA: No, Mr.

Speak er, I cannot guarantee that no road would be built to the location of Band No. 40. That is one request that has been made by the Band over a number of years and there has not been any agreement with that request to date by the Government of Manitoba. I can't comment on any road access from the Ontario side, because it is possible by way of causeway to link Band 40 to the existing road in Ontario. In fact, presently their transportation route is through Ontario going across the water by boat and once there by road to the rest of the road network in Ontario and in Manitoba. l\ll R. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister appears to approve, or imply approval, for the construction of a road, despite the City of Winnipeg's objections, would the Minister ensure and advise Band 40 that they will not be allowed to do anything that will adversely affect the City of Winnipeg's water supply; that they will not be allowed to create a sanitation problem that may have the effect of deteriorating the City of Winnipeg's water supply; and thatthe provincial government will do everything necessary to protect the City of Winnipeg's water supply? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYR.A: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't believe that I had indicated, in my reply to the previous question, any indication that the province was approving or agreeing with the request for the road; quite contrary, I indicated the province has not agreed to any road access to Band No. 40. With respect to the ·general broad question of the Member for St. Norbert, the province has taken a very clear and firm position with respect to the protection of the City of Winnipeg water supply.

We have stated that we would do all in our power to protect the water of the City of Winnipeg. If I might add, Mr. Speaker, it's been through the efforts of the province, by forcing the Federal Government and forcing the ·Band to sit down that there was. the agreement on the modified FEARO process.

Pribr to our . involvement there was no agreement on that process and we continually pressed the Federal Government, the Band, and the city to sit down and try to resolve this issue and one .result of that has been the agreement from the Federal Government for the modified· FEARO process that the Band has concurred with. We've also been successful in lobbying the Fet:leraLGovernment to provide Winter Works Activity for. Band No. 40, and the province will continue to do all in its power to protect the water supply of the City of Winnipeg. lead-i.-.-soil Removal Program MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Environment. Today's copy of the Sun reports that more than a year after a promised cle an-up Weston area boulevards still contain dangerous levels of lead because of dispute as to who will pay the $7,500 clean-up cost. My direct question to the Minister of the Environment, Mr. Speaker, whom you will remember continuously asked questions of my colleague, and of the government that I served, on this particular issue -Mr.

Speaker, I want to correct, not questions - I think it would be fair to say that he harrassed my . colleague and my government for. not acting on that clean-up. My direct question to . the 11$5

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 Honourable Minister is, it's now been 18 months since he's been Minister, why has this matter not been cleaned up. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: To the member opposite, indeed it is true that I asked, on numerous occasions, and he can apply any implications he wants as to whether or not that was harrassment, but certainly there was a determined effort on my part to have the previous administration deal with this problem. I did fail in that, Sir , regrettably so.

However, upon assuming government, one of the first actions of this government was, in fact, to go in there and to develop a clean-up program. That program was developed; we have undertaken and completed a sod-soil removal and replacement program of 26 residences at a cost of approximately $49,000 to the province. Canadian Bronze has undertaken a clean-up of their picnic site which they were asked to do, and we did ask the City of Winnipeg to undertake a clean-up of the boulevards.

Unfortunately so, that was not accomplished as part of the original program and it was not accomplished because the City of Winnipeg felt that the province should pay the $7,500 for that. On receipt of a request by the Mayor, in response to that request, I asked staff to work with the staff of the City of Winnipeg to determine if the issue could be resolved at that level.

The issue was not resolved at that level so we're now at the point where I should undertake discussions with Mayor Norrie, and having been advised of their concerns yesterday, I have written to Mayor Norrie and that letter will be in the mail shortly, asking him for a meeting, but also indicating to him that we are not going to let the matter of the $7,500 stand in the way of this clean-up. That clean-up will be accomplished and, if the province has to pay for it, let it be said right here and right now that the province will pay for it, and we will do that .

That's something that members opposite were not prepared to do when they were in government, but I'm certain they had their reasons. The fact is there has been a regrettable delay. I regret the delay; I wish the City of Winnipeg had undertaken a clean-up project much earlier but, because they have not, I'm prepared to sit down with them now and resolve this issue so the clean-up can be undertaken this year. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I do thank the Honourable Minister for that short and precise response to the question.

I note the patience of the Acting House Leader, the Minister of Natural Resources, in allowing him to give that short and precise answer so I have just one more short and precise question for the Honourable Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, I do not doubt for one moment the sincerity of the Minister of Environment in his concern for cleaning up the environment.

Therefore, would he not agree with me that, because of $7,500 -I say, quite correctly, accepted responsibility for it -but because of the $7,500 dispute we still have contaminated boulevards in that area, some two or three years after it was discovered; would he not agree with me that the $7,200 that his government spent on flying Marxists into a recent conference would have been better spent in cleaning up the polluted are in the Weston areas than on the other more questionable source for spending public money? HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, a long question. In his first

preamble he said it had been 18 months; in his second

preamble he said it's been two to three years, which means that obviously he's taken a very long time to put the second question after the first or time does, indeed, fly when you're having fun, as he was having. The answer to that is that it is regrettable that the City of Winnipeg did not undertake the project at the time we requested them to do so.

It is regrettable that the Province of Manitoba, in response to their request for funding, did not act more quickly so that clean-up could have been undertaken last year, but I think it is commendable that clean-up will in fact be undertaken this year, and I can give you that assurance.

That's quite a bit sooner, it took less time for us to accomplish that than it took them to do anything in respect to that long-standing problem; it's been around for a long time and if we can have it cleaned up within 18 months, or within two years, I believe, that we have gone a considerable way towards improving the environmental quality of the City of Winnipeg and we're prepared to do that, committed to do that, and we will do that. Depositing of atomic and nuclear waste MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I know the Rules of the House.

If the Minister chooses not to answer a question he doesn't have to answer a question and he refused to answer that question that I placed. However, Mr. Speaker, I ask another question to the same Minister on another subject.

Recently, I believe, in fact I think contracts are in the process of being awarded with respect to the work that is going to be undertaken at Pinawa by the Atomic Energy Commission in the research in the granite formations as to work that may be helpful to them in the future depositing of atomic and nuclear waste, has the Honourable Minister satisfied himself that the real concerns of Manitobans and the area residents have been met in every way in the signing of these contracts? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J.

COWAN: First, I think the record should be clear that the previous administration signed the lease which in fact allows that activity to be undertaken, so I'm certain that they were assured that the best interests of all Manitoba and the best interests of those area residents were in fact incorporated into the lease which they signed, which would permit that undertaking to be accomplished.

It is now in the phase of starting construction, and I can assure you that since the time that lease has been signed and since the time we have been in a position to review it, we have done so, and we have taken the time to consult with the Committee of Concerned Citizens of the area on several occasions. We have taken the time to work with them to develop a monitoring program to ensure that the provisions 11 86

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 incorporated in that lease in good faith by the previous administration are being lived up to by all the parties. For that reason, yes, I am assured that the activity which is being undertaken there at this time is being carefully monitored in such a way so as to allay the concerns of the Committee of Concerned Citizens of the area.

However, if there are further concerns which they would like to bring to my attention, I am certainly prepared to discuss that with them, as I am prepared to discuss any such concerns which are brought to my attention by residents of the province respecting that or any other matter which falls under my area of responsibility. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, you of course will understand, but a big part of our job as members of the opposition is in holding Government Ministers accountable -accountable is a little longer word for meaning "honest." I simply want to ask the Honourable Minister, and I acknowledge as he just acknowledged, that the arrangements the previous administration entered into were obviously to his satisfaction, and the constant criticism on this issue that he gave when he was in opposition was baseless and he now acknowledges that.

He has made no changes to the original leases signed by the then Conservative Government, and the constant charges that he made about our lack of concern for the environment were baseless. HON. J. COW AN: What I have done is met with concerned citizens of the area, and met with and discussed at staff level with representatives of AECL, a monitoring program which will ensure that lease is being lived up to in the appropriate way. That was not accomplished under the previous administration. It, in tact, has been accomplished under this administration, and we are proud to have been able to play a

part in ensuring that that monitoring will be ongoing. Without the monitoring, the lease in itself was a useful document, but lacked some clarity. I think the monitoring provides us with an opportunity to review the operations as they are ongoing and to ensure that in fact the provisions contained within the lease are being lived up to in an adequate fashion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister of Environment.

Would the Minister of Environment assure this House that as long as both he, as the Minister responsible for the Environment in the Province of Manitoba, and as long as we are in office, that that facility will never be used for the storage of nuclear waste? And could he also try and see if he can get the same sort of assurances from the members opposite? HON. J. COW AN: Indeed, the members opposite say it will have to be longer than that, and without wishing to acknowledge any specific length of term that I have in mind, I can assure him that it will have to be longer than that.

What we have tried to do is to not only make that statement known and clear, but to ensure that the monitoring program such as I described earlier in place, to ensure that whatever government is in place, that the people in the area have faith and confidence that the lease is being lived up to and that the enviornmental integrity of that area is being protected. I hope that answers his questions. French school for lle des Chenes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education.

A group calling themselves Parents and Taxpayers Association, which incidentally represents hundreds of ratepayers in the Seine River School Division, have for months been trying to meet with either the First Minister or the Minister of Education regarding the concerns they have about the proposed all-French school for lle des Chenes. I am wondering if the Minister can indicate why she is refusing to either meet with the group or even communicate with that group. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, to my knowledge, I have not received a request from that group for a meeting. The people from the community who did request a meeting - I think there were three people - wanted to meet in very short order. At the time, I was booked up and I think we asked them if they would be prepared to meet with my legislative assistant, or would they be prepared to delay the meeting for a week or so until I had a bit of free time to meet with them. They accepted the offer of meeting with my assistant and he reported to me on that meeting.

I have not, to my knowledge, had any other requests for meetings with the people of that area that I have turned down. If he has any letter that indicates something has happened there and we are missing it, I would appreciate hearing it. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister.

I have correspondence where they wrote to the First Minister who subsequently, after two months, wrote back indicating he had forwarded the information to the Minister of Education who subsequently would be responding to that, along with the request for a meeting that had 10 questions which they felt they would want to have answered, which has been indicated by the First Minister that the answers would be forthcoming. My question to the Minister of Education is, would she consider answering those questions for this group, and would she still consider meeting them somewhere along the line? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to answer any questions that anybody asks about any decisions we have made, and to give as full and complete an answer about what was done and why it was done as we are able to give. I am also prepared to meet with any group that wants to meet with me. MR. A. C RIEDGER: A further question to the same Minister then. Can the Minister indicate whether she has a copy of the 10 questions that were forwarded 11 87

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 to the First Minister who subsequently indicated he had forwarded it to the Minister of Education, and if she has received that, which I believe has been in the mail for two months, would she now consider answering those questions? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I will take that specific question as notice so I can make sure that I know which letter it is I am responding to. As the member opposite will realize, I think I get in the neighbourhood of about 125 calls a day into my office, and hundreds of proposals and requests, and it is impossible to document and record all of them.

I am quite prepared to look into it and to speed up our answer if we have been delinquent in doing so. Gilbert Plains health facility MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Health can confirm that his department, the province, will not provide lab and X-ray diagnostic services in the new health care facilities as scheduled for Gilbert Plains. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. W.

McKENZIE: I wonder, can the Honourable Minister advise the House or me if he is receiving a number of complaints and petitions and requests from constituents in that area who are most concerned, and insist that they feel to fill the health needs of the area, they should have a lab and X-ray diagnostic services in this new health complex. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have met with a delegation of people from the area to explain the situation. They've met with the officials of the Manitoba Health Services Commission on a number of occasions.

I think the reason why is quite clear, but I'll certainly be more than pleased to discuss that during my Estimates with my honourable friend. MR. W. McKENZIE: I wonder, then, with the number of letters and petitions that I'm getting from Gilbert Plains people, if the Minister is prepared to sit down with that community and review it. These are maybe not the hospital board, or whoever, of the municipality either; from the local constituents. The individuals are most concerned and feel that the Minister should sit down and review it with them.

I wonder if he is prepared to deal with the Gilbert Plains community by going out and sitting down with them on this matter. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I've done more than that; I've asked these people from Gilbert Plains to sit down with me, and the people of Grandview, to discuss the whole situation and they have refused to do that; I've asked to arrange this meeting. It's quite a dilemma because I also review everyday the requests and the statement and the reminder from this side of the House that we have quite a large deficit, and I don't know what really the member wants at this time.

Main Street Manitoba Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, the Member for Roblin-Russell requested some information as to the application from the Town of Roblin with regard to the Main Street Program. I have more information and I can indicate that the application has not been rejected outright, but rather has been returned with suggestions for improvement. The town was referred to our field officer in our Planning Division in Dauphin, and also to the Department of Economic Development for assistance in improving their application.

The town did not seek advice from staff or from the department when they made their application. I can advice the honourable member that the Mayor has met with Roger Dennis, the Director of Budget and Finance, this morning to discuss their application, and the Mayor is satisfied that perhaps they were a little hasty in getting their program together, and that they will avail themselves to the assistance that's available from the Department of Economic Development, and also from the Department of Municipal Affairs. MR. W. McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker , I thank the Honourable Minister for that information.

I also would like to ask the Honourable Minister, is this standard procedure on these applications for them to deal with Economic Development and your department, as well, because my understanding is that there is a lot of confusion out there regarding this program. MR. A. ADAM: Well, Mr. Speaker, all the information regarding the guidelines and information on the program was mailed out last fall and municipalities have that information.

So, it is just perhaps in the haste of preparing their budget they thought they may send in a program; this has not been rejected, it has been returned with suggestions for improvement and I am sure that, given a little more assistance to the town, they will come up with a good program for their town. I would point out that the town has a population of close to 2,000 and, therefore, it is essential that they have a very very good plan if they want to have contiguous impact on the downtown area; it has to be well planned. Flin Flon Hospital - staffing allowance MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Health. According to the Minister's statement earlier today, a considerable amount of the difficulty at Flin Flon evidently resulted from the hospital's arbitrary use, Sir, of its staffing allowance. My question to the Minister 11 88

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 is, can he advise the House of the extent of this situation; to what extent are hospitals engaging in arbitrary use of their staffing allowances, unknown to the Commission or to the Minister's office? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l. DESJARDINS: If I remember correctly, I think there was an LPN hired instead of an R.N., and a clerk, also, to prepare some of their reports, and, of course, that left certain times that there were no R.N.'s at all and then the R.N.'s on duty had to work many long hours.

I think their shift is 12 hours and they signified that they could not go on forever. MR. l. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. But, is it standard practice that hospitals can adjust those staffing allowances arbitrarily, without conveying that information to the Commission and, therefore, to the Minister? HON. l. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not something that the Commission might be informed immediately, but it is something that the Standards Officer should know, and that information should go to the Standards Officer and we are reviewing the policy now to see if that situation can be improved.

But, again, I say that some of the responsibility has to stay with the board, to start with, the community, and certainly with the medical officer of the hospital, and this is one of the reasons why we are also asking the College to look into the situation. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House whether the Commission, in the investigation, is checking with other northern hospitals, notably, The Pas, Thompson and Churchill, to ensure that there are not periods of the day or night in which their Intensive Care units, or critical program areas, are understaffed? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, if the member is talking about this special inquiry, no, this special inquiry is dealing only with the Flin Flon issue. MR. l. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister assure the House that, learning from the experience in Flin Flon, the Commission will check with other northern hospitals to ensure that that kind of flaw is not occurring in their staffing patterns? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be premature to make a statement at this time. Of course, we've learned by the problems that we have; I hope everybody else does also.

This is something that there will be some recommendation from the Commission, no doubt, and I will announce them at that time. MR. L. SHERMAN: A final supplementary at this juncture, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has reported on the preliminary, or interim, review undertaken by the Commission with respect to this problem, and has advised the House that he has accepted Commission recommendations, which include a full review of staffing patterns at Flin Flon. Will the Minister undertake to report to the House as to the results of that full review? MR. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I will be very pleased to do that.

If it's during the Estimates we can discuss in the Estimates. If not, I could make a statement in the House. Emergency Measures Organization - guidelines MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, on March 14th, I was asked a question by the Member for Brandon West regarding guidelines on evacuation when bomb threats are received, part of which I took as notice. Since a number of members here will be traveling to Brandon to the Keystone Centre tomorrow, I think it is appropriate that I answer that question today.

I can inform the House that the Emergency Measures Organization does not have standarized guidelines on when a building should be evacuated, nor do we think it is practical to do so. Quite properly, the matter of when a building should be evacuated must be determined by local officials in consultation with local police based on the circumstances of the individual case. As far as how evacuations occur, I am sure that all of the honourable members are aware that the standard procedures have been developed in conjunction with the Fire Commissioner's office for all public buildings.

In the particular case referred to by the honourable memb er, Mr. Speaker, the Brandon City Police were notified. I should point out that they have on staff at least one qualified bomb technician trained at the RCMP Training Centre in Ottawa. After due consideration, the decision was made not to evacuate by the local officials in consultation with . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Virden on a point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, seeing as though the Minister has a rather lengthy answer, this side of the House would appreciate a written reply rather than using up the time of question period the way he is. HON. J. Pl OHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am just about finished my answer . It was a question that was asked in this House. It is not unduly lengthy. Although I am not in a position to comment on this specific decision, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the proper method was utilized in arriving at the decision in that particular case and because of the varying circumstances surrounding bomb threats, it would not be feasible to develop a standardized set of guidelines. The experts are the police and they should be notified immediately as I am advised they were in this particular case. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minis•er. The First Minister just indicated from his seat in response to the point of order raised by my 11 89

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 colleague the Member for Virden should be written if we expect a written answer. Over a year ago, I placed a written question on the Order Paper which was directed to the First Minister, asking what criteria the First Minister used in making appointments to boards and commissions. I have been assured on many occasions since then that the question would be answered. The government of course continues to make appointments to boards and commissions. I wonder when I might receive an answer from the First Minister to the written question which I placed over a year ago. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we will provide those answers. I am also going to check back because I believe there are some unreturned written questions from the days that honourable members sat in government and we sat in opposition not responded to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the First Minister would be wiser to look after those things that are immediately within his area of responsibility. A MEMBER: If he can. Constitutional Amendment MR. B. RANSOM: A question for the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker.

There was some concern following the Consitutional Conference held in Ottawa about two weeks ago about the wording of the consitutional amendment which was to be put forward. I would ask the Attorney-General whether he could advise the House if there does appear to be a difficulty in the wording of that constitutional amendment, or whether there seems to be agreement among all the participants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I have been consulting and others have been consulting with other provincial Attorneys-General and with the Minister of Justice.

I am satisfied that there was some confusion as to the decision that was taken at the time, in that a proposition was put forward by the Native Council of Canada that was not in fact discussed. I think there was some assumptions made by them as to the status of that proposal, the proposal, which in fact was circulated as the agreed-upon proposal, was the only proposal in writing and it appears to be the one with respect to which provincial Attorneys-General and First Ministers agreed on March 15th. That will be the one that will ultimately -and I think shortly -be introduced in the House. MR. B.

RANSOM: Just a final supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. The Attorney-General has indicated that there might be a motion introduced shortly. Could he give any indication of whether he expects that to be within two weeks, a month, six weeks? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I expect that amending resolutions will be introduced into the House prior to May 15th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I also have a question for the Honourable Attorney-General. - (Interjection) - I might write it, but it would take an awful long time to get an answer, so I would like to ask the Attorney-General now. Committee meetings scheduled I notice on the Order Paper that there have been notices given of numerous committee meetings for the ensuing six weeks or more.

The question I have relates to Bill No. 5, The Surface Rights Act, which has been referred to the Law Amendments Committee and I notice you have two dates, one at 10 o'clock on April 7th and one at 10 o'clock on May 10th to hear from people interested in making representations on the surface rights.

My question to the Honourable Attorney­ General is since many of the people appearing will be traveling long distances, would the Attorney-General give consideration to hearing further representations on the evening of April 7th at 8 o'clock at night, rather than having the House sit; or on Friday April 8th, when I notice the Agricultural Committee is meeting at the same time here in the House.

I wonder if the Attorney­ General would give consideration to those people that have to travel long distances and give them a chance to make their full presentation without having been interrupted for a period of six weeks. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I thank the Member for Virden for that question. Indeed, it's my expectation that Bill 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 17 and 19, which are substantially technical in nature will invite little, if any, public representation. The main public representation will be with respect to Bill No. 5.

Accordingly, Bill No. 5 as it is listed in the Order Paper, will be the first one called at 10 o'clock in the morning on April 7, 1983, precisely for that reason, that is to accommodate out-of-town persons. It is my hope that by the normal hour of adjournment in the forenoon or early afternoon at 12:30, all of those from out of town who wish to be heard will have been heard. If not, I think that the suggestion that the committee consider meeting that evening is one which the Minister responsible for the bill indicates is certainly acceptable to him and it is acceptable to myself as Government House Lea der.

I think that accommodation can be made. Workers Compensation Board MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board. Could he advise the House if the morale of the staff of the Workers Compensation Board has been improved as a result of the Minister's expending of substantial public funds in order to purchase 11 90

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 memberships at health facilities and spas for employees of the board? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, there's an incorrect premise in the member's question, that is, that the Minister, or this department, spent the funds, in fact, that was a decision of the Workers' Compensation Board. The Board of Commissioners approved that alloction and I will certainly check with them to see if, in fact, the morale has improved as a result of that.

However, I do want to indicate that all corporations and businesses and, in fact, whether they be Crown or otherwise, should be looking at improving the physical fitness of their employees and participating in programs, however possible, to ensure that those employees are more fit. I think that we will all find that, not only do we have a better society for that, but at the same time we have increased productivity, reduced time loss due to illness, and that we have a healthier society which places less strains on the Workers' Compensation Board in the long term because people are fit. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister agree with the decision of the Workers' Compensation Board that he appointed, without consultation with labour and business, does he agree with that decision? If not, has he advised them not to expend the employers' funds that are the sole source of funding for that organization in that type of activity in the future? HON. J.

COWAN: Well, I can indicate that I disagree with it and I certainly assume, as a matter of fact I know, that they took considerable time to discuss it and to determine whether or not they felt it was a productive use of their funds, just as many corporations who do likewise take that time to discuss those sorts of programs and consider if they are a productive use of their funds. They made the decision that, in fact, it was a productive use of their funds and, therefore, I'll support that decision, yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for Oral Questions having expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGE MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make an announcement of a committee meeting change. This follows a request by the Opposition House Leader. The meeting slated for Tuesday, April 26th at 10:00 a.rn., which was to have been the first of two, perhaps more, meetings on Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board will, in fact, consider Manitoba Telephone System, and Hydro will be heard, as scheduled, Thursday, April 28th; and again on Tuesday, May 3rd. HON. S. LYON: You finish it in two days. HON. R. PENNER: No, you probably won't, but there'll be other times to be found.

The other change which I would like to note is simply that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to meet on May 17th; it should read, will consider the Report on Public Accounts, and the Report of the Provincial Auditor. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Honourable Government House Leader for making that change in timing. I simply would like .the record to show that the request had been placed to the Government House Leader before the announcement had been made in the House.

I wouldn't want an indication that, because of a request of mine corning after the timing having been announced, that it was necessary to make the change. HON. R. PENNER: The Member for Turtle Mountain appears to think that he has some kind of ESP or prescience. I know when I received his communication. He may know when he sent it; I know when I received it, and I received it after the announcement was made. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance that, Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

This is to consider Estimates in the House and in committee. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Committee will please come to order. The

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Government Services and we shall begin with the opening statement from the Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure to introduce the Estimates of the Department of Government Services on this first occasion for myself and to present them to your Committee for review and approval. Before highlighting some of the more positive and constructive initiatives in the Government Services Estimates I would like to make some brief introductory remarks on the department's role in government.

Government Services is charged with the responsib 'lity of providing a wide range of support services to other government departments and some agencies, boards and commissions. The Government 11 91

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 Services Act is a service agent within government providing departments with support services they need in order to carry out their mandates. Because of this interplay and the responsive nature of Government Services it's Estimates are somewhat contingent upon the intentions and Estimates of other departments. The inflationary costs of procuring supplies and providing needed services, for example, appear disproportionately in the Government Services Estimates.

Nevertheless, we have endeavoured to introduce a number of novel and, I believe, innovative cost-containment measures to minimize government spending and achieve real dollar savings and cost avoidance in a number of very important areas. An overall comment on the department's staff years should first be made to apprise the honourable members of how we have dealt with this very important human resource of the department.

In 1982-83 the department had 1209.24 SYs, and this was after the transfer to the Cultural Affairs of the Queen's Printer and the Manitoba Gazette, 68 SYs, and the Word Processing Centre and Operations to Finance 8.26 SYs. In the new fiscal year a greater emphasis will be placed on long-term project planning with the establishment of a new Planning Branch in the Project Services Division of the department. This will result in the addition of five SYs.

There will also be some increase in janitorial staff, eight SYs, as a result of conversion to in-house janitorial services; and a very small increase, two SYs, in the Central Administration Division to support our systems development. However, these additional SY s will be more than offset by a reduction in other areas.

A staff reduction of 20 SY s has been made in the Construction Services Branch; a reduction of four SYs has been made in the Material Distribution Services Branch; and three term positions in the Project Services Division have been given up; and one term position has been given up in the Purchasing Branch. By not filling some existing vacancies and some redeployment of existing staff the department will achieve a net reduction of 12 SYs overall.

As I mentioned in my Budget speec h, my department's Energy Management and Technical Services Branch has been applying numerous, innovative, and proven energy conservations techniques to reduce energy consumption in the operation of government buildings. Relative to the 1979-80 base year, a 20 percent to 25 percent reduction in energy consumption has been achieved. This translates to a cost avoidance of over $3,000 per day which has been achieved without major Capital expenditure.

With further application of innovative energy conservation techniques, we expect to achieve a real operating cost avoidance of approximately $1 .5 million this year and project a cost avoidance of $1 .8 million in 1983-84. On the same topic of conserving energy in government buildings, I would like to reiterate that the introduction of daytime cleaning of government buildin gs has, not only improved staff morale considerably, but also significantly reduces energy costs by limiting the amount of time lighting and ventilation are required, and has a significant effect on energy consumption.

Another area marked for conserving energy and, thereby containing costs, has been the government's 11 92 vehicle fleet. This government has stepped up the down­ sizing of its vehicle fleet, begun by the previous government, to the point where 93 percent of all sedans will be compact, or sub-compact, models in the coming fiscal year. Greater emphasis is being placed on sub­ compacts and no full-sized sedans are being authorized.

The lower purchase price, greater fuel efficiency, and reduced maintenance costs of compact and sub­ compact cars, makes them more economical than larger sedans and good economic sense when costs are being contained. A new policy, the replacement of executive driven sedans with compact models, will increase the proportion of compacts in the fleet and result in further government savings. With regard to vehicle repair and maintenance costs, a more consistent replacement program maintained over the last couple of years has resulted in a reduction in the incidence of repairs.

This year our estimate of repair costs has been reduced by $733,000.00. We are continuing to develop ways of cutting costs attributed to the government fleet. I also mentioned in my Budget speech that postal services in the department will be bundling mail in an effort to reduce postage costs and encourage greater utilization of inter-departmental mail delivery, rather than relying as heavily on Canada Post. These, and other measures, will serve to contain our costs, assuming no substantial increase in volumes of mail.

To reduce the province's postal costs the department has put forward several reco mme ndations to all departments; it was suggested, for example, that departments disseminate Civil Service Bulletins to employees at their work station, rather than mail the bulletins to their home address. The recommendation was put forward, as well, that all pay cheques be delivered to employees at their work station, rather than to their bank. In addition, acting upon our department's advice, the Department of Agriculture will be reducing the frequency of mailing certain publications.

However, despite these efforts, the Canada Post Corporation's recent changes in class specifications, regulations, and in postage rates will result in a substantial increase, 13 percent, in postage expenditures during the 1983-84 fiscal year. The department has been involved in several new initiatives in the past year; one which will come to fruition during the new fiscal year is the city-wide Centrex System. Centrex is a custom designed telephone system for the government that would allow incoming calls to reach a user without switchboard assistance.

The Centrex System will offer a number of advantages over the present telecommunication system, including direct in-dial, total transferability, dial access to in-and out­ of-province WATS, an accurate direct departmental billings for rental of services. The system will also allow for integration of electronic mail communications for the transmittal of data and for word processing facilities.

Greater accessibility of government offices to WATS, as a result of Centrex, will result in decreased usage of direct distance dialing, and a net saving to the government of between 15 percent and 30 percent for overall long-distance telephone costs. The cutover to Centrex will be completed in June, 1983. While extolling the advantages of Centrex to the government, I might add that with the increased flexibility of this system, the public will now have greater telephone accessibility

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 to the government. Calls will be transferable to any office throughout Winnipeg and the Citizen's Inquiry Service will be able to integrate and extend local or long distance calls into the Government of Manitoba or Government of Canada network. The in-WATTS is also available for the public to call their MLA in Winnipeg free of charge. The Department of Government Services recognized the importance of planning in every facet of its operation .

Planning is essential in meeting the challenges of difficult economic times and facilitates the complex rationalization and repriorization of programs and resources necessary for contemporary government. As you review my department's Estimates, you will see evidence of numerous planning initiatives. One such initiative is the formation of the new Planning Branch which I referred to earlier, in our Projects Services Division.

It will evaluate the functional stability of existing and proposed premises, define the immediate and long-term accommodation requirements of client departments and assess the benefits of leasing versus building options. There is also a great deal of systems planning and implementation taking place within the departments in the areas of materials and purchasing, and others that I'm sure we will have an opportunity to discuss later. Mr. Chairman, there are many other areas I could highlight at this time, however I feel that this introduction is lengthy enough.

Let me just say that I look forward to discussions with my honourable colleagues and commend the Estimates of the Department of Government Services to the honourable members for their consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Chair now wishes to call upon the leading opposition critic, the Member for Virden, to present his customary reply, if he so wishes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

One of the things I think that, first of all, we have to say to the Minister is that we appreciate the efforts that are being made to continue the program that was brought forward by the previous government in trying to conserve energy in this province. I think it's fair that we should ask the Minister now so that he will have the opportunity to provide us with the actual details because this is the time when we do get the opportunity, once a year, to examine in detail the various programs that are put in place.

I would like to ask the Minister now so that he has lots of time to prepare the information for us, if he would give us a list of all the buildings that are under his jurisdiction; the cost of the energy consumption in those buildings, whether it be gas, oil or electric; the buildings that are leased, whether the government supplies the energy for that or whether it is supplied by the person that leases the building -all of that information so that we can look at the actual figures ourselves and see where the energy savings are.

He is the one who has made the statement that there is a $1 .5 million energy saving in the current year and projected $1 .8 million in the coming year. We would like him to show us, item-by-item, where that saving has occurred and how it has occurred, so I give him advance warning now that we will be expecting that information as we go through the Estimates and come up with the various items under the Estimates as printed.

The second thing that I would like to ask of the Minister at the present time is, we have noticed a change has occurred in the phy sical appearance of the Legislative Assembly, where there were some changes made in that building, the Chamber, I don't believe that there was any authorization in the Estimates of last year for it I would like to know where the authority for those changes came; whether it was by Order-in-Council or how those changes came about. During the course of the Estimates, the Minister can expect to receive some questions regarding those changes.

Another area that does cause a little bit of concern, we notice that under the present Budget there is about a $200 million Job Creation Program and a major portion of that is in Capital construction projects. Yet, we notice there is a 20 staff-man-year reduction in the staff of his department with respect to construction. So I would presume from that that probably most of the work that will be done in major construction will be done under a tender basis and his department will not be involved to any significant extent.

Whether it be done by the province or by the Federal Government or on a cost-sharing basis, we will find out out as time goes on. Other than the telephone system, I do say that we welcome the change to the Centrex System that again it was a change that was approved by the previous administration. I think most MLAs will agree that the present WATTS system in here is far from being satisfactory.

MLAs have a great deal of difficulty with long distance using the 151 system; most of the time the service is busy and you have great difficulty getting long-distance telephone calls through, so any changes as it affects this building in particular would be most welcome. Other than that, I think that I would be quite willing to allow further discussion, although the Honourable Member for Pembina may have a few things he would like to address. MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point in time, the Chair wishes to invite the administrative staff of the department. Now we are going to Item 1.(b)(1). The Member for Virden . MR. H.

GRAHAM: I had suggested that in the reply to the Minister's statement, I only addressed a few points and I believe the Honourable Member for Pembina wanted to add to those. We do split our jurisdictions up in that respect. MR. CHAIRMAN: Wh at is the pleasure of the Committee? Usually it is customary for only one leading critic. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think it has been customary that on the Minister's opening remarks, one might offer comment as a member of the committee and a Member of the Legislative Assembly. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Does the Committee wish to go on with the Item 1.(b)(1) or to hear these comments which 11 93

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 are usually after we consider the Minister's Salary -at the end? The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not particularly familiar with the change, but presumably the Rules Committee thought it appropriate that staff - I was surprised that staff weren't present from the outset -but there has been a change and I gather that the change is that the Minister makes an opening statement and then the opposition parties, through the named critic, gives a reply and both of those things are relatively short.

Then you get to the review, detailed, where it's pretty wide open and I think that if you depart from that then you're going to get maybe six statements and you'll get some other member perhaps, wanting to make a further contribution. I think we should try and confine it that way. I'm sure that after, on the first item, the Member for Pembina can get right in there. I would think that the rules should be followed -I'm not saying strictly -in the manner that they're designed to accomplish; a formal statement, a formal reply, then you get right into it.

I don't think we should depart from that because if we do, where are we going to end up. And I'm not sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair wants to direct a question to the leading opposition critic. Is he yielding his role as opposition critic to the Member for Pembina? MR. H. GRAHAM: Yes, for the completion of this statement. MR. D.

ORCHARD: If I might help you out of a -not a tough spot -it's just that the tradition, I think, has been in the introduction of Estimates that the Minister make an introductory statement which is replied to by not only the opposition critic, but by anyone else who might have an interest in the department. A MEMBER: Not true, not true. I'm telling you, you're wrong. MR. D. ORCHARD: Why don't you talk to the mike and be recognized by the Chair, then? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: And the staff isn't there for the introductory remarks.

Then when we wind off, the last item we pass, of course, is the Minister's Salary, once again, without staff being there and it's a debate which involves any and all Members of the Legislature on the Minister's Salary. I think what is being suggested here is that if we follow the letter of the law, only one person could reply at the passing of the Minister's Salary at the end of the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: May the Chair offer an explanation? The usual procedure is for the Minister to make an opening statement and then the sole prerogative, as is customary, with the leading opposition critic to make a reply.

After the reply, we will invite the administrative staff and then we begin the items, except the Minister's Salary. The last item to be considered is the Minister's Salary. At that point in time, any and whatever members of the committee can make all kinds of comments and remarks that they may wish, but the procedure is to confine the reply to a single leading opposition critic. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I've already wasted more time than I intended to take in my remarks, so why don't you call in the staff and then we can get on with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Good point.

The Chair wishes to invite the admini strative staff of the Department of Government Services so that we can proceed with the business of this committee. The first item that we shall consider is Item 1.( b)(1) because it is also customary to defer the first item, relating to the Minister's Salary. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has indicated a 20 percent saving that has been referred to by my colleague, the MLA for Virden, on energy consumption costs over the past short while. I understand that he used 1979 as the base year.

I wonder if the Minister might provide information in addition to that requested by my colleague. Is 1979 as the base year, the calendar year 1979 or the fiscal year 19 79? Could the Minister, since he's indicating a 20 percent cost saving, and I assume that's over 19 82, on the same, whether it's calendar or fiscal year, would the Minister provide for us the mean temperatures, by month, for the base year 1979 and the year in which he is indicating the 20 percent saving, and also the maximum and minimum temperatures experienced during each of those months for which he is going to provide the mean temperature?

That will allow a comparison of climatic conditions to be included in his Energy Cost Saving Program MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we can have that information for the honourable member. The mean temperatures for each of those years, is that what you're asking for, each month as well? I can advise the honourable member as well that we're dealing with the fiscal year in the references that I made. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, let's just make sure we're talking the same thing. We're talking the fiscal year 1979.

Is that the one that ended March 31, 1979 or began April 1, 1979 and what is the comparable year for which he is claiming his 20 percent saving? Whatever the answer is, I would request, when he provides the information that he provide the mean temperature by month for the two fiscal years and the maximum and minimum temperatures by month for those same years. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we're dealing with the fiscal 19 79-80 which starts April 1st of 1979 and ends on March 31, 1980 and comparing that to the 119 4

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 fiscal year 1982-83 which began April 1, 1982 and ends at the end of March, 1983. Yes, we can get that information. As well, Mr. Chairman, the appropriate time to deal with it at that time would be when we're dealing with Physical Plant, which deals with the Energy Program under Field Services (b). MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b X1 ). The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, when you're dealing with the Executive Administration I would like to take this opportunity to express the appreciation of this side of the House to the Deputy Minister of Government Services who, I understand, will be shortly taking another position. It's our belief that he has served the Department of Government Services well and we want to take this opportunity to formally recognize those services and wish him well in his new job when he takes that position. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister provide us with a rationale for the salary increase of $1 80,000 to $231,700, and I suppose the first and most obvious question would be, is that salary increase based on a fixed number of staff, a comparable staff complement for each year. If so, could the Minister provide details of the breakout of that increase, it's in the neighbourhood of 25 percent, I believe. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence. First of all, in answering that specific question it does represent the same number of staff. However, the members will notice, Mr.

Chairman, that in almost all cases there is significant increase in the salary component, and in some cases it involves different numbers of staff, but in most cases it can be attributed to a number of other reasons and I would like, at this time, to perhaps give some breakdown of how those salary increases have come about. If I could just take time to go through the overall department salary figures for last year and then compare it to this year, and then we can deal with the individual ones, if I could.

The overall estimates shown in the 1982-83 Estimates was $24,519,000 for Salaries; there was a transfer out during the 1982-83 year to the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources -the Manitoba Gazette, the Queen's Printer and so on -of $1 , 197 ,OOO; there was also a tranfer out to the Department of Finance -Word Processing Branch -$1 7 4,000, so that the total transfer to other departments was $1 ,372,000 which results in last year's Salary component being $23, 146,000.00.

Added to that is a lump sum allocation that was made in the Budget last year by the Department of Finance, it was not in our Budget, but it was a lump sum for Salary increases of $1 ,330,000 which represented slightly over half of the required amount for Salaries, so the total adjusted vote for 1982-83, shown in the 1983-84 Estimates, is $24,4 77 ,000.00. This year, in 1983-84, the Estimates provide for $29,938,000, and I will compare the two figures. MR. D. ORCHARD: You used '83-84 for $25,44 7 ,000.00? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I said that was the amount shown in the 1983-84 Estimates book for 1982-83.

On the left-hand side of the page, if you add up all the salary components in your Estimates book, you would get the figure $24,477,000.00. I was trying to show how that was arrived at. If we were just to compare last year's Estimates you wouldn't get that; you only get that after taking the transfers to other departments and so I referred to that. Now, I will get down to the information that the honourable member , perhaps, was asking for specifically. In 1983-84 the Estimates provide for a total of $29.938 million for salaries. This is an increase of $5,460,000 or a 22 percent overall.

This is made up of a number of factors. First of all, the remaining 46 percent, slightly less than half of the base for last year, where there was not quite a sufficient amount allocated in the lump sum Budget last year, so the base had to be brought up, that was $1 ,049,000 of that $5 million, or 19 percent of it. As well, the total salary increase at 9.5 percent that we allowed was $2,425,000, so that's 44 percent of it.

The additional 27th pay period accounts $1 ,075,000, or 20 percent of the increase, and merit increases and reclassifications, and so on, account for another 17 percent or $91 1,000, that adds up to your $5,460,000 increase over last year. So it's attributable to, first of all, last year's base; contributing to that the total salary increase, the 27th pay period, and the merit increase and reclassification. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, the figure under the Reconciliation Statement of $1 ,330,500.00.

Does that represent the 54 percent of the overall increase that the Minister referred to, or the 46 percent of the overall increase? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That represents the 54 percent that was allowed in last year's lump sum, but not in our Estimates, in the Department of Finance. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Is the Minister saying that the column of figures on the left-hand side of each page for year ending March 31, 1983 -let's use $1 80,000 which we are discussing right now -is adjusted by $1 .335 million, which only represents 54 percent of the raise given that year, and to go from the $1 80,000 on the left-hand side to $231,700 on the right-hand side for this particular category, what you have done is factored in the balance of last year's raise which you attribute to be 46 percent of the total?

The 9.5 percent total salary increase for this fiscal year, plus the 27th pay period for this fiscal year, plus any and all merit and reclassification increases for this fiscal year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that sounds correct to me. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then we have in the difference between the left-hand column and the right-hand column the entire raise for the fiscal year 1983-84 which was recently negotiated. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this is the original settlement, 9.5 percent was allowed for that figure for 1983-84, that's the amount we're budgeting. MR. D.

Of\CHARD: Then to make my question maybe clear to the Minister, is the figure for the salary increase 11 95

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 for fiscal year 1983-84 the original contract salary negotiation that was agreed to some year-and-a-half ago or 15 months ago, or does that increase represent the renegotiated increase? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the figures that are in the book since it was drafted long before the renegotiations took place, do not reflect the latest negotiation. They reflect the best estimate of the costs under the previous agreement that was budgeted at 9.5 percent. MR. D.

ORCHARD: One can assume then, since the government has claimed a saving in salary by the renegotiation, that all of the Salaries in the right-hand column for fiscal year ending March 31 , 1984 are overstated? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That would be correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are one or two questions yet. I think the honourable member touched on some of them. There was then a transfer from last year to this year, of 46 percent. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There was a transfer of 46 percent from this year to last year. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Well, 54 percent was accounted for. There's 46 percent that was not accounted for; a transfer from last year to this year. Is that right? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Of the increase. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right. The amount budgeted last year was only 54 percent of the requirements for the increase last year. MR. H. GRAHAM: Does this meet with all the requirements of The Financial Administration Act, that you can transfer from one fiscal year to the other without getting additional authority? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chair man, it was my understanding that it was necessary to make up that difference for this year in budgeting for this year's salary, that the ba se had to brought up to the actual requirements for the previous year. But that does not mean that money from this year was actually transferred back for last year to be spent -obviously it's been spent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister indicated that the money has already been spent.

Does that mean that the deficit projections made by the Minister of Finance are also understated, because the left-hand column states a salary position which is some 46 percent below what was actually spent for that fiscal year? Will the deficit be likewise understated by that amount? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, obviously the amount spent last year would have had to be accounted for through Special Warrant. The amount this year is a reconciliation to bring that base up the amount required that was not included in the Estimates last year. We have to have the proper base before we apply the increase this year.

The excess amount that was required for Salaries in the previous year was paid out, as we said, and obviously had to be handled through Special Warrant. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, if that is the explanation the Minister is using, then why did not those Special Warra nt figures show up in the total for Salaries in the left-hand colummn for year ending March 31 , 1983? When you prepared the Estimates, surely you knew at that time what your salary costs were going to be and what the Special Warrants were.

It seems to me that the Minister's explanation may be correct, but it wouldn't avoid the fact that the deficit would be understated, because you have carried forward a full 46 percent of last year's salary increase into this year's detailed Estimates of expenditure. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, 46 percent was required to bring the base up to the actual expenditures, so that we then could then apply this year's increase to that figure.

As far as the matter of whether it should have been applied or should not have been applied to the figures on the left-hand side of the page in your Estimates book, I would submit it would have to be addressed by the Minister of Finance. MR. D. ORCHARD: That may well be, but we're not dealing with the Minister of Finance's Estimates right now, we're dealing with the Minister of Government Services.

It would appear as if, in the presentation of his Estimates, that we are not comparing apples and apples when we look at the Salaries; that, in fact, the Minister has indicated that despite the fact he wants to bring his base year up, he is asking us for approval of funds on the right-hand column for year ending March 31 , 1984, some 46 percent of Salaries already expended completely in another two days. We're being asked to give approval to money that's already been spent.

I submit that when the Estimates were drawn up, surely the Minister and his staff were aware of what the contract settlement was for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 1983, and by only including 54 percent of that via the reconciliation statement, the purpose of which is to bring forward any salary increases and make them known in the statement of the Estimates of Expenditure for the previous fiscal year, has given us a situation where last year's deficit would be understated, for insta nce, in the Department of Government Services by some $1 .35 million and probably by a similar amount in every other department.

That means that the deficit for the fiscal ending in two days will be understated. Not only that, but it will give the government an excuse for next year when the deficit is higher than projected, to say well, we had to roll in 54 percent of last year's Salaries. 11 96

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 As was said, I think, by the Minister last night, you can't have it both ways. I suggest the Minister is trying to have it both ways in the presentation of his Estimates here. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we've indicated quite clearly that this is the amount that is required for this year and we are dealing with this year's Estimates. The amount of money in the right-hand column is the amount required for Salaries, to meet salary increases this year.

In terms of whether the amount on the left-hand side as shown is correct or not correct and reflects any special warranting that took place during the previous fiscal year, or the one that's just ending at this time, would be something that I'd be prepared to get additional information on and bring back to the committee. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has just indicated something that's not factual. He has indicated that the column on the right-hand side that we're being asked to approve for this year, contains the increases in salary for this year.

Five minutes ago, he told us that some 46 percent of the last year's raise is included in the right-hand column for fiscal year ending March 31, 1984. That isn't to be expended this year; that's already been spent. So the Minister is either incorrect in his last statement or in his statement approximately five minutes ago. Would the Minister care to clarify which statement is correct? HON. J. Pl OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the correct statement is that the figure on the right hand side reflects the corrected base amount for last year's figure as well as the projected budgeted increase for this year. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So then to make it perfectly clear, the right hand figure for a fiscal year ending March 31 , 1984, contains part of the salary increase from last year, which is already spent. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is not my understanding, Mr. Chairman. I think I said that it has brought the base up to the proper amount for this year and then we've added the increase on top of that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, then, is the Minister telling us that the Salaries in the left hand column, in this case $1 80,000, represents the entire salaries paid out in fiscal year 1982-83? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that there are additional costs for Salaries in the previous year, as I indicated earlier, and those would have had to have been covered by Special Warrant, and what time that was done, I'm not certain. I don't know if that would have been done before these Estimates were drawn up. MR. D. ORCHARD: Where would the Minister care to hazard a guess, those extra dollars for Salaries from fiscal year ending March 31, 1983, would appear in his Estimates. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we're not dealing with last year's figures; we're dealing with this year's figures, and I've just informed the honourable member that the $23 1 ,000 for Salaries in this particular appropriation is the amount that is required to pay for this year's Salaries and bring the base up to the proper amount. MR. D. ORCHARD: And in bringing the base up to the proper amount, as the Minister is indicating is contained in the right hand column, is there a carry over of Salary allocation from last year's raise that does not appear in the left hand column? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, as I said earlier, and I think I've explained it several times, if it's not clear to the honourable member, I will, as I said, find out exactly what is in that $1 80,000 on the left hand side, if it includes the total Salaries for last year. My belief, as I stated earlier, my information is that it did not include the total amount that was required for Salaries last year and the amount that was allocated last year was about 54 percent of the required amount. Therefore, there would have to be approximately slightly over $1 million required that had to be made up in last year's Estimates for Salaries.

That was obviously done . It does not mean that it's shown in the figures on the left hand side, but that was obviously done. That's my understanding at this time. The right hand figures will show that full increase for last year because this money has to be spent this year and it's a cumulative amount that's needed for Salaries. Therefore, the right hand side will reflect the full increase for last year, and that will form the base, and then there will be the increase that is required for this year which we've said we have budgeted 9.5 percent. So that would make up the $231 ,000.00. I think that is very clear.

MR. D. ORCHARD: I'll just refresh the Minister's memory to a piece of paper he was reading from a few minutes ago where he indicated that the overall increase of 22 percent was made up of four areas; one being the remaining 46 percent of last year's Salary allocation; the 9.5 percent total Salary increase from this year; the 27th pay period in merit increases; and the Minister indicated when I put that on the record some 10 minutes ago that that was correct . Now the Minister is saying that isn't correct, that the 46 percent from last year is not part of it.

The Minister must clarify this at his earliest convenience. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would say that the member is taking a different

interpretation of what I said. In the increase for this year, the 46 percent is required to bring that base up to the required amount. So that's why we refer to that and require it in Expenditures for this year. It does not mean that was spent for last year's Salaries. It's simply to bring last year's base up to the requirement as of the end of March this year so that we can then apply the correct factor, the 9.5 percent, to this next year's salary increase.

So it is, for this fiscal year '83-84, part of the requirements but it is not money that is spent in '82- 83 that we're now voting for, for last year's Salary. MR. D. OUCHARD: Would the Minister just provide further clarification for that next time we meet? 11 97

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, if there is further clarification and if I have in any way not made it clear, then I certainly would provide more information. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -the Member for Virden . MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. In an effort to try and assist the Minister, perhaps we should go back and come at it from a different direction.

The Minister has indicated a total salary requirement of $29,938,000, I believe, for this coming fiscal year and those figures were the best estimate that he could provide when these Estimates were printed, and he has indicated that occurred before the $1 0 million saving was renegotiated with the Civil Service. He has indicated that figure is an inflated figure. Perhaps the Minister could have information for us when next we meet, giving us the total amount that the figure $29,938,000 is overinflated, how much it is overinflated as a result of the Civil Service $1 0 million saving in the renegotiation.

It would be useful for us to know exactly how much there is extra in the Estimates here, just relating to Salaries, so that the Estimates may be corrected by that amount. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I understand the honourable member is asking then for the revised figures that would take into account the requirements after the renegotiated increase and the difference between that and the amount that was budgeted originally. MR. H. GRAHAM: That's right. The $29,938,000.00. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we will endeavour to have that information as soon as possible, as soon as the amount that is to be encumbered from our Budget is indicated to us in Government Services. We have not received that information at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The pleasure of the Committee as to 1.(b)( 1)? Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to add that the amount that is encumbered then would go towards the contribution of the MGEA towards the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1) -the Member for Virden . MR. H. GRAHAM: You have called 1.(b)(1). Would you call 1.( b)(2) please? MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1)-pass. 1. (b)(2) -the Member for Virden . MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate, under Other Expenditures, what this $56 million would entail? MR. D. ORCHARD: Don't give him more money than he wants. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is $56,000 and it is down, as the members can see, by $2,000 from last year. Included in that is the Health and Education levy that was found from within that expenditure and it had to be found from within in that appropriation, so that is why it has been reduced by the amount of the Health and Education levy.

As well, it includes all materials and furniture and other requirments for the running of an office. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister indicating that part of the $56,000 of Other Expenditures includes the 1.5 percent payroll tax? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Could the honourable member please repeat that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina, please repeat your question. MR. D. ORCHARD: I certainly will, Mr. Chairman. Did the Minister indicate that the 1.5 percent payroll tax is part of the $56,000 Other Expenditures? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I said the health levy has been provided for within that figure.

I might also mention that part of that $56,000 is the travel budget for the department which has been consolidated in that figure and has been reduced significantly over last year as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(2)-pa ss; 1. (c)(1). The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister give us the same-style breakdown he did as to how the Salaries have increased from $497,400 left-hand column to the $622,500 in the right-hand column? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to determine whether there are any staff changes in terms of the numbers.

The numbers are consistent, we are referring to the same number of SMYs in both cases, so basically the difference between the two figures would reflect the explanation that I gave earlier on the overall figures. Again, I was dealing with the amount that was required to bring the base up from last year for the previous year, for last year's salary settlement to be reflected in this year's base, as well as the 9.5 percent settlement, as well as the 27th pay period and merit increases and reclassifications. MR. D. ORCHARD: Does the Minister have dollar breakdowns on those four items? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I don't have the dollar breakdowns on those figures for this particular appropriation at this time, but I can certainly get that information, if the honourable member would like it. MR. D. ORCHARD: That would be useful for after supper, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIRMAN: 1. (c)( 1)- pass; 1. (c)(2)-pass; 1.(d)(1)-p ass; 1. (d)(2)-pass; 1.(e)(1). The Member for Pembina. 11 98

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister indicate what he views the role of EMO to be? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, one of the major roles that I see, Emergency Measures Organization involvement of course is in assisting Municipal Governments with the overall planning for emergencies. Certainly that has been expanding and taking place during the last period that I have been Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures.

As well, this is carried out through municipal advisers working with the municipalities in different regions of the province in putting together emergency plans for those municipalities. In the event that emergency should occur, the local governments are then prepared for those emergencies, are aware of what kinds of emergencies could occur and what kind of resources they have available to them when emergencies should occur. There are a number of emergency plans that have been developed. I think that was one of the major roles, as I said, to make municipalities more aware of their role in emergencies.

Emergencies are best dealt with, I believe, at the local level wherever possible, but wherever provincial input is needed, certainly Emergency Measures has to be able to provide that as well. That is another role that they are certainly involved with and I feel is necessary. Right now, during the time when we're not dealing with specific emergencies, the role of Emergency Measures is to work with municipalities through seminars, through emergency planning, planning meetings that they have to set up emergency plans in the various areas.

Of course, they have to as well, co-ordinate the overall response when an emergency should occur, an emergency that is significant, results in a particular significant disaster, then Emergency Measures may be called on to co-ordinate the response and that is certainly done when necessary. MR. D. ORCHARD: What does the Minister deem as an emergency? What strikes him as an emergency for which EMO would play this assistance and co-ordination role? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly there could be a broad range of emergencies; some may be localized and some could affect large areas of the province.

Floods certainly could be emergencies; forest-fire situations could be emergencies that would be EMO involvement; chemical spills could involve EMO involvement depending on the nature and the kind of spill and how it affects the environment and so on. There are various others I imagine, that would be as limited only as one's imagination, insofar as explosions and so on; that could be an emergency situation where Emergency Measures has to get involved. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would ice storms be considered an emergency? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, ice storms could certainly be considered an emergency, the degree of which would depend on the way that it affects services and so on. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister says, could be classified as an emergency. Under what circumstances would the Minister believe that an ice storm would constitute an emergency and require the services of EMO? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would consider it an emergency when the designated agencies and departments could not deal with it.

If the Municipal Government had an emergency plan and then working with the provincial departments that are assigned that work best in those areas such as Highways for dealing with road problems and Manitoba Hydro for dealing with electrical problems and so on -when they cannot meet the needs within a reasonable time and are not reacting to the situation as it emerges and of course this sometimes develops over a period of time. Emergencies develop over a period of time; they are not necessarily instant emergencies.

Monitoring has to take place at the time that it is felt or requested certainly from the agencies that they can't handle the emergency themselves, then Emergency Measures might be involved. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, the Minister is artfully giving answers here. But I would just like to ask him, what is the reasonable time within which agencies dealing with this problem should meet the needs of their customers, be it Manitoba Hydro, be it the Highways Department. What is a reasonable time in the Minister's estimation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that would depend, again, on the situation that is there and the kind of hardships that it's causing to individuals who are feeling the effects of the particular "emergency ", as we could call it.

Certainly if there is a situation where there is danger to life and so on and the Hydro cannot react to provide electrical power in time then there could be an emergency and in that case Emergency Measures would be contacted to help with evacuation, should that be necessary and that kind of thing to co-ordinate the evacuation procedures if they are required, such as, if there was a senior citizens' home or a hospital which lost their backup electrical supply during something like that, if the primary power was cut off and their backup supply was not working, certainly, there would need to be involvement in terms of moving people to a safe place and this is where emergency measures may be involved.

In the actual carrying out of repairs, and so on, emergency measures would not undertake that as a matter of course. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Minister consider it an emergency if someone was without electrical power for seven days? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that would certainly depend on the situation. I guess we can go back to the pioneer days and know that people were without electrical power for long periods of time, as a matter of fact they never had it. In the winter, of course, the dangers involved or the emergency involved with lack of power is felt in a different way.

Certainly there is, perhaps, lack of heat but many people have other backup ways of heating their homes and also looking 11 99

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 after their operations particularly on farms. Some farms would need electrical power for their operations. In many cases where it is crucial that they require electrical power they would certainly want to provide backup power so that they could deal with those emergencies when they occur. I believe many operators do that, they can look forward and see where they might encounter emergencies and therefore take steps to alleviate the effects it would have on them when those emergencies occurred.

So I would find that a poultry farmer, for example, who might need heat to operate pumps or a dairy farmer or beef producer that needs power to operate water supply facilities would, obviously, want to take some backup steps to make sure that he had other ways of getting that water to his livestock when and if an emergency should occur. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can I take it that the Minister doesn't consider a customer of Manitoba Hydro being without power for seven days is not an emergency? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I said at the very beginning that it would depend on the situation. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The situation is that the customer is without electricity for seven days. Is it or is it not an emergency? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the

interpretation of an emergency would certainly be different from the individual who is involved and how ingenious he is in meeting his needs without calling on external help. Certainly though the Manitoba Hydro would be advised that in their eyes this is an emergency, they must get on this as soon as possible. But I don't see necessarily unless there is is a danger to life or so on that emergency measures would be involved in that. MR. D. ORCHARD: What the Minister is telling us is that his

interpretation of an emergency doesn't include the fact that customers with residences to heat with electricity, with, I suppose, water systems to run with electricity to prevent from freezing up, being without power for seven days is not an emergency in his eyes or the government's eyes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't attach myself to those words that the honourable member has said. It does not mean that I, as an individual or as a Minister, would be uncaring and would not be concerned about an individual who is without power for seven days.

I would certainly be concerned but the member is asking for my opinion in my role as Minister responsible for Emergency Measures Organization and how they would react in that situation. I say that they would probably not get involved in that kind of a situation, first of all, there are agencies to deal with that situation and when emergency plans are set up in the rural areas the people who are affected would go to their local authorities, go to their neighbours for help and so on, and would assist each other until such time as the authorities were able to get the power back on.

I think that's probably what happened in the particular cases that the honourable member may be referring to. Perhaps the honourable member might want to suggest the role that Emergency Measures should be, in his eyes, taking in a situation where a person is without power for seven days. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister -and once again we have this difficulty of knowing when Ministers are speaking as individuals or for the government.

I'd just like to have the Minister tell me, as the Minister speaking for the Government Manitoba, as to whether he considers a person, a farmer, being without power for seven days with the agency, Manitoba Hydro, making every available effort to get the power back on but faced with a rather massive problem is unable to do so for seven days, that farmer is without power for seven days. I want the Minister to tell me what his position, not as an individual, but as a Minister of the Government of Manitoba, hence the Government of Manitoba's position, on whether that constitutes an emergency? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: From the point of view, Mr. Chairman, of the Emergency Measures Organization because that's what we're dealing with here, it certainly isn't a danger to life in that particular situation at least it hasn't been brought to my attention that there ever was a danger of loss of life. As I said, the people in those situations would call upon various resources be it their neighbours, various agencies, local officials and so on, for assistance. It would depend on how that particular individual was coping with the situation.

If there was a danger to life and there had to be evacuation certainly Emergency Measures might be involved in making sure that the proper authorities were notified to make sure the evacuation took place, but that would depend on the situation. So, in terms of my position as Minister responsible for Emergency Measures Organization, the involvement that would be necessary in that case, I would say that from that point of view, the situation that he is describing would not be classed as a mass emergency, an emergency sitatution that there is a loss of life imminent or maybe a danger of loss of life.

In terms of whether it is an unfortunate situation and whether the people deserve help and so on, certainly, I would sympathize with the situation. I've been in that situation myself in cases as a child and I'm not saying it's pleasant, but it is something that people learn to cope with in the situation. They can't always rely on outside help for every need that they may have during some of these situations. Sometimes, the best help they can get is very close to them and from friends and neighbours and within their own family.

If they're able to cope, that is the best way to do it until such time as these services are turned back on again. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, if I might, and if the Minister -if I'm interpreting his remarks correctly -is it fair to assume from what the Minister has said, that in his estimation -he's speaking on behalf of the government -that Emergency Measures Organization and the government has no role in a circumstance where a person's hydro-electric power service is cut off for seven consecutive days? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, is the honourable member speaking about a widespread seven-day cutoff, or one individual? I'd like some clarification on that. 1200

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm asking the Minister, he has indicated that there is no emergency situation that would involve EMO when power service is cut off for seven days to residents in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is not clear whether it is a community or one person. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, when a individual does not have power, does it really matter if it's one, two, three, a whole community? You mean to say that if it's the Town of Dauphin, that EMO gets involved? If it's a farmer in Arthur constituency, EMO doesn't get involved?

Wh ere do you set your criterion for determining when EMO responds? That's what I'm trying to find out from this Minister. So far, he hasn't been able to answer it, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is obviously changing the tone of his question and the emphasis of his question. He was dealing with one individual over the period of time that we were discussing it. I said that it depends on the situation and how it is affecting that individual and the ability to cope under those particular circumstances.

When you're dealing with a whole community cut off for seven days, such as you mentioned, Dauphin -it could be any community in Manitoba, and it certainly would not have anything to do with my feelings towards it, whether it was Dauphin which is in my constituency, or whether it was a farmer who lived in the Honourable Member for Pembina's constituency or a town in his constituency, it would make no difference as to how I would feel about it. I would be concerned.

I would think that if there was a situation where the power was cut off for seven days in a community, that there probably would be a role that emergency measures would be playing, but that would be quite a different situation than what the honourable member was referring to throughout his line of questioning. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Since communities would then receive assistance from EMO, if a community was without power, then what if 20 farmers in a given area were all without power for a prolonged period of time, would that constitute emergency under which EMO would react, and the Minister would deem that EMO should react? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: If there was a role for emergency measures to play, other than to make sure that the proper authorities who had to be notified were notified to deal with providing supplies, or heat, or clothes, or whatever was needed for individuals in that situation, water, if those people were not being notified, and therefore, the services were not getting to the people that were isolated in the situation where they did not have the electrical power at their disposal, then EMO would have to make sure that those proper authorities were notified and would, no doubt, do that.

They are always notifying or monitoring the situation. I'm not saying an across-the-board statement that a town or a village in Manitoba would receive any different attention. Of course, it is easier to react to emergencies when you have a situation where all of the affected people are in close proximity to each other, and if a local emergency plan is in place and the local officials know where to go and are utilizing that plan, then that would also affect whether EMO had to become more directly involved or not. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So then, an emergency depends on how easy it is to solve it, whether EMO gets involved. Is that what we interpret from the Minister's remarks? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is obviously a very important factor. MR. D. ORCHARD: So that, Mr. Chairman, if it's an easy emergency to solve, EMO will help under this Minister's direction. If it's a difficult one, EMO won't help? That's what he's saying. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that's not what I said at all. I said it may be taken the opposite. If it's an easy emergency to solve then it probably isn't an emergency.

If the local authorities and agencies can obviously react and take care of the situation, then EMO would not have to become directly involved. If there was a situation where the local authorities and the agencies and government departments were not reacting, and were not able to react, then perhaps EMO would have to be involved. There's a judgment call in most situations that is made by the co-ordinator of EMO in consultation with the executive director responsible, if it becomes more of an emergency situation, the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

Then, it can go onto a Ministerial committee; a committee of Cabinet that would be involved if it was a dire emergency. As I said, emergencies quite often evolve and don't exist just like that. They usually evolve and take time to build up, we're dealing with a fire or flooding conditions for example, and in those cases, EMO is monitoring and reacts when necessary. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(aX1). The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, we're fast approaching 4:30.

I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to bring back after the supper hour at 8:00 o'clock, a copy of the correspondence that the Premier read out on Tuesday, March 8th. Also, Mr. Chairman, if I might ask him for a little further information, could the Minister also bring and table for the committee, the correspondence that EMO had with him as to the nature of the requests made of them during the ice storm and the monitoring reports that EMO gave to the Minister as to the situation of the ice storm in southwestern Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly, Mr.

Chairman, first of au, I'd just like to clarify, is the honourable member asking for the statement made by the Premier in response to questions by the Honourable Member for Pembina and the Honourable Member for Arthur? Is that the response to those questions? Is that the statement that the honourable member's referring to? I'd like to get that clarified. In terms of the log and the information given to me by EMO, there's no problem. I'd be very pleased to provide that information. 1201

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: The letter that I'm referring to was used by the First Minister. He made reference to a request by a member opposite, and that is when I asked him certain information. He was volunteering information and it was a letter that he took the liberty to show me after the question period. That's the letter that would be most helpful to be tabled. It was March 8th, incidentally. MR. CHAIRMAN: If it is a Tuesday, it is March 8th. Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just before we call it 4:30, Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to ask, who is it to and from; who was the correspondence from and who was it to? I'm not exactly clear on what he's talking about. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina, please clarify. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the letter certainly wasn't to me, but your First Minister had a report on the ice storm. I assumed it originated through your office, from EMO. I didn't see to whom it was addressed, or who signed it, I only saw the relevant passage which referred to assistance provided to a member. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we could very easily then be talking about something that was not a piece of correspondence at all then, just some information. MR. D. ORCHARD: That may well be. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, I am now interrupting the proceedings for Private Members' Hour. The Committee will reconvene at 8 p.m. this evening. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, Item No. 4. Agricultural Development and Marketing mvision, (

a) Administration-pass? The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairma n, in the absence of the Honourable Member for Arthur, maybe I've got to raise a couple of questions and ask him if he can give us any idea of the SMY s in this Development and Marketing Division; any changes in staff; possibly the number of contract employees; that type of information would be most helpful. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, it might be the opportune time for me to put on the record certain questions that were raised by the Honourable Member for Arthur dealing with all the staff in term positions. It'll take me a little while to put these names on the record, and to make sure that they are there for the honourable members as to who is where. We may as well deal with this now if it's agreeable. That was taken as notice by myself some time ago. I'll go through first, positions that been filled since April 1 in 1982.

There's the Co-ordinator of Programs and Policies; my Executive Assistant who is located in Arborg -again, that's in Planning and Management. In the Department of Management and Operations Division there's a computer programmer, a position that was filled; Ag. Development and Marketing Division, we have the Chief of the Beef

Section position filled, the Dairy Cattle Specialist position, Livestock

Section Co-ordinator in Brandon, the position has been filled. In the Veterinary Pathologist, a clerk position -the Veterinary Pathologist and clerk, and the following ones, are from the Veterinary Services Branch - a medical technologist, laboratory technologist, clerk, clerk-typist, and another clerk-typist in the Veterinary Services Branch.

In the Crown Lands Branch, there's the Eastern Regional Supervisor's position filled, and the Land Representative out of Neepawa position filled; in the Northwest Region, the Regional Engineer in Dauphin position, the Home Economist position in Dauphin, and the Director of the Northwest Region was filled. In the Southwest Region, the Admin. Secretary in Melita was filled, Regional Engineer in Brandon position was filled, Ag. Rep. in Minnedosa position was filled, Administrative Secretary in Brandon was filled; in the Central Region, Ag Rep at Pilot Mound position, Admin. Secretary at Portage, and Admin.

Secretary at Portage; Eastern region, Home Economist at, Steinbach, Admin. Secretary in Dugald; Int erlake Reg ion, Regional Engineer Arborg, Ag Rep Arborg, Ag Rep Fisher Branch, Home Economist in Arborg. Soils and Crops Branch, Grassland Specialist and the Director of Soils and Crops; Technical Services Branch, Technical Engineer Officer position was filled; in the Marketing Branch, an Administrative Secretary position was filled; Farm and Rural Development Division, an Assistance Deputy Minister's position was filled, and was publicly an nounced, that was the appointment of Cliff Cranston.

Agriculture Training, 4H and Youth Specialist in The Pas position was filled; Water Services, a number of positions there, Technical Engineering Officer, Drafting Technician, Engineering Aid, Design Engineer, General Manager; Manitoba Water Services Board, Technical Engineering Officer, Technical Engineering Officer, Chief Engineer, Secretary to the Manitoba Water Services Board, and a clerk typist position.

In the Policy and Economics Division, the Executive Director's position was filled, Senior Statistician's position, Ag Resource Economist, Director of Economic Analysis, and a Director of the Policy and Development Branch. Those were the positions that were filled since April 1, 1982, in full time positions, in bulletined positions that have been filled since April 1, '82, term encumbents in vacant positions.

In the Veterinary Services Branch, a laboratory Technologist and a Clerk in the drug centre; in the Animal Industry Branch, Secretary to the Feed Analysis Lab; Soils and Crops Branch, a Wheat Specialist; Agricultural Training Branch, Secretary to 4H and Youth; Crown Lands Branch, the position of Administrative Secretary. There are a number of term positions that are on staff as at March 18, 1983 when the work had been done. 1202

Tuesd ay, 29 March, 1983 I think the Honourable Member for Arthur wanted names, Mr. Chairman. I can certainly provide him the names. Most of the people that are involved are either in the Ag Extension Centre, and various secretarial positions and the like. If the honourable members want those names. I will give them the positions. I have not given them the names of people who have been bulletined and posted; I ask for guidance from the honourable members, if they wish the names I will give them.

In those term positions on staff, many of them have been long time positions in the Ag Extension in Brandon and medical technologists, secretary assisting in Deputy Minister's office, and those kinds of positions. If they like I'll give them the positions and the like. The secretary assisting in the Deputy Minister's office, students assisting at the Vet Services Lab in clean-up duties, feeding animals, etc.; there are three positions there; medical technologist in the Vet Services Lab, some of the permanent staff are on maternity leave, so there's a term replacement there.

A dealer-inspector in the Farm Machinery Board, a short term position there; secretary on Soil Survey

Section at the University of Manitoba, it's a term position; media services support to my office, it's a term position. Secretary to the Crown Lands -Steinbach office; it's a part-time positio11, I believe; Secretary assisting in the Eastern Regional office and a lab technologist in the Milk